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Alternate Areas of Studies for Techies?

By 22samurais in Culture
Mon Oct 02, 2000 at 10:20:52 PM EST
Tags: Help! (Ask Kuro5hin) (all tags)
Help! (Ask Kuro5hin)

There was a time not to long ago when I was a poor student who was well on his way toward failing out of college. One day when I was drunk at a bar somebody overheard me talking about linux and more standard geek talk. He offered me a job, I dropped out of college, and unlike school I tried at the job. Today I am the webmaster for a DJIA company. I have been interested in returning to school for a long time now, but I have run into major roadblocks in returning and am basically blacklisted (due to my bad academic track record) from pursuing a technical education

I want to finish my Computer Science education, but unfortunately my last two semesters at school before I dropped out, I failed most of my classes, all of which were either in programming or math. I was rejected from all of the schools I recently applied to. I spoke with one of the admissions officers the colleges, and he said that work experience counts for almost nothing when you have an academic track record as poor as mine.

He suggested that if I applied to a non technical related (liberal arts) department, that my chances of admission would be better. He said that other departments would consider my application if I applied under the premise that I had dropped out of school because CS was the wrong major for me.

I dont have any problems owning up to my past mistakes, and I am taking his advice seriously. I think completing college will serve me well later in life, at the same time I have never considered majoring in a non-tech field. I have a hard time justifying applying to other departments because I plan to keep my job while being in school and I plan to stay in the same field after receiving my degree. It seems more than likely that any non-technincal educational path I pursure will run parallel to (and not directly help me in) my career.

The point of my whole dillemma is that I am looking on advice on choosing a department which will a:\ find that the work experience I have had (i.e. web programming) will add someting to their department, and b:\ will develop skills which could most help me most in developing my career. Any discussion on non tech educational strategies or experiences would help me out a great deal


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Alternate Areas of Studies for Techies? | 26 comments (26 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
study what interests you (4.57 / 7) (#1)
by madams on Mon Oct 02, 2000 at 08:46:41 PM EST

College isn't always about what is useful: it's about intellectual growth and finding out what you want to learn about at each particular moment.

Some good liberal arts programs to look into are: philosophy, psychology,, English, art history, linguistics, cognative science, and the like. The later two are particularly useful for computer related stuff. The Cog Sci or linguistics major would also probobly give you the opportunitiy to take CS classes.

Another area to look into that some colleges offer is Science and Technology Studies (at least this is what it's called at my university). These are things like history and philosophy of science, science in public policy, etc.

You could also major in some marketing or business related major (resource management or operations research might be the code words here) if you are interested in selling your sole (but it looks good on a resume).

So tell me what you're interested in studying and I'll give you more detailed advice. Good luck!

Mark Adams
"But pay no attention to anonymous charges, for they are a bad precedent and are not worthy of our age." - Trajan's reply to Pliny the Younger, 112 A.D.

Re: study what interests you (3.50 / 4) (#13)
by Cariset on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 01:26:29 AM EST

Yeah, this is good advice. You know what your chosen field is, and you don't have to worry about getting a job. So unless there's some pressing reason for you to get a CS degree, just find a major that sounds interesting, and take a lot of unrelated courses too. I don't know how your university works, but you'll probably be able to take whatever CS courses you want, even if you aren't a major. (That's kinda what I did.)

College doesn't have to be about acquiring technical skills. It can be about broadening your mind and exploring your interests. And I find that it's a lot more fun that way.

[ Parent ]

Do what I did... (4.14 / 7) (#2)
by XScott on Mon Oct 02, 2000 at 08:47:19 PM EST

My academic record wasn't really a problem like yours is, but you might want to consider taking my approach:

The CS department at my school required entering a pre-CS phase, and then applying to be in the major the next year. They only accepted a limited amount of people based on some criteria (grades etc...). I honestly just didn't feel like dealing with it.

So, I kept my existing major (Math) and just took all of the CS courses I could get my hands on without applying for the major. The ones that required being a major for admission were easy enough to get into with an add/drop form. (Instructors are more friendly than registration computers regarding enrolling in a class.)

When I finished the last of the classes necessary for the CS degree, I applied to be in the major. It's pretty tough to not get in when you're already on your way out. I graduated with a double major, and I took a number of graduate level courses (taboo for undergrads) to boot.

Do whatever you must to get in. Even if it means enrolling as "non-degree-seeking" or whatever they call it. Hell, sign up for something cool like art or philosophy or something. Take the CS courses, and deal with the paper pushers after you've proven your stuff.

You're paying for your classes, you should be able to take what you want.

-- Of course I think I'm right. If I thought I was wrong, I'd change my mind.
Dont let anyone tell you that you are no good (3.50 / 6) (#3)
by maketo on Mon Oct 02, 2000 at 09:14:51 PM EST

If the school does not want to tke you - it is their loss. You have a functioning brain - perhaps you should sit down and educate yourself (unless you are in it for the money and the jobs the degree will bring you in which case I dont feel sorry for you). Just because some bastard stamps people around without even trying to get to know them should not have you even CONSIDER changing the major or going somewhere else. This is the classical approach of today's modest citizen - let the institution step all over you and you even ask for more and approve by "taking his advice seriously".
agents, bugs, nanites....see the connection?
Other ideas (3.60 / 5) (#4)
by karnos on Mon Oct 02, 2000 at 09:21:52 PM EST

Why not apply to a community college? There's no real chance of them rejecting you, despite past academic mishaps. Take the courses you did poorly in again. Get good grades this time. Then apply to a more prestigious university with your new, improved track record (and your massive amount of experience). They'll have no grounds for rejecting you then.

Alternatively, you could get a degree from my school, Columbia University, via the Columbia Video Network. I think MIT and Harvard are doing the same thing. While you don't get quite the same experience that an in-house student receives, you'll have no problem gettng in, especially if your employer vouches for you (and has deep pockets).

However, if you're still intent on getting in via liberal arts, just because some admittance agent says it might improve your chances of reattending college (which I doubt; bad grades are bad grades and your experience in the workplace speaks against any commitment you might try to show to the humanities), then I'd suggest taking lots of courses in psychology, linguistics, and biology. That's if you're interested in cog sci or AI. Otherwise there's not much you can do that's non-technical that'll give you an edge in CS. Maybe some business or economics just to improve your value...

Re: Other ideas (3.00 / 1) (#26)
by ocelot on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 02:07:11 PM EST

Yes, don't overlook community college!

I grew up in a community where, if you had half a brain, you were expected to go immediatly to a decent four year college. Anyone who went to a community college was expected to never be more than a burger flipper. So I went to a state university, did awfully, and dropped out to avoid flunking out.

Its always been my intention to go back to school, and I just started taking a class (which I flunked twice at the university) at the community college, and I'm discovering that I love it. It isn't perfect - academically, its been easier so far than a high school class (and no, I don't consider this a good thing). But the class itself is great. The teacher wants to be there - she's there because she wants to teach, not because she wants to do research and having to teach a class is an unfortunate side effect. The class size is small (about 25 people, as opposed to a 400 person lecture) which allows for a lot of interaction. And possibly most shocking - the students actually want to be there and activly participate, something that I never really experienced at the university. All in all, it really makes the class the most enjoyable I've ever taken. The class schedule is more convienant for someone who works (most classes are offered twice - once during the day and once in the evening), and the classes are exceedingly cheap.

So don't let the bad reputation of community colleges scare you off. My experience is limited, but it seems, at the very least, like a good way to drag up your GPA.

[ Parent ]

Been there! (4.20 / 5) (#5)
by Greyjack on Mon Oct 02, 2000 at 09:33:00 PM EST

I know *exactly* where you're coming from. M'self, I went back to the school I bombed out of some years back and applied for re-admission. When they asked why they should let me back in, my answer was essentially "I grew up. I *want* to finish school now."

They liked that answer. Despite my academic history, the 0.847 gpa semesters, etc, they let me back in. Dunno how well I would've done at another school--but, my school let me back in to finish up. I'm kicking ass, too (but then, after 'bout eight years away, they like the commitment it takes to come back).

Now, my brother went through a similar stretch as well. Unlike me, he moved to a different city, and had no interest in going back to his first school. Before he could get admitted to a solid program at a good place, he had to do a semester at community college. After a 4.0 semester there, they let 'im in.

In any event, if you've already been doing the technical work, you've got a lot of the practical, hands-on knowledge you need. If you're gonna go back to get the degree (which I certainly understand, and unlike many of the K5/slash denizens, would definitely advocate), I'd head to a liberal arts school, see about a CS major there, and enjoy the broad education they provide :)

But, that's just me. Take it for what it's worth, and good luck whichever direction you go!

Here is my philosophy: Everything changes (the word "everything" has just changed as the word "change" has: it now means "no change") --Ron Padgett

Re: Been there! (none / 0) (#23)
by El Volio on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 10:30:05 AM EST

Thanks for that post. I'm in a similar situation to the author, and to be honest, I'm a little scared about going back. I'd really like to be able to go back to my old university, since I was quite close to finishing when I dropped out. It hasn't been long enough for Texas' "fresh start" program to kick into effect, but I'd like to go back. Optimally, to finish my major (statistics), but if not, hopefully they (or another school) will let me in the history program.

Essentially, I'm just glad to see that I'm not the only one in this situation, and that others have been able to work through it and finish up. I basically just don't want to feel like I wasted my time there; after all, having something like 110 hours but no degree is not exactly a confidence-booster. "Yeah, I could've finished, but y'know, Team Fortress..."

Has anyone in a Texas public university been successful in something like this without being able to use the "fresh start" program?

[ Parent ]

Re: Been there! (3.00 / 1) (#24)
by eventi on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 10:53:43 AM EST

I couldn't agree more. I dropped out after 1 1/2 yrs of EE, and went back for CS to the same school. It looks _bad_ for the other schools reputation to allow a low GPA admission, but if the school I flunked out of (and toured with a band instead of finals) lets me back in, they have the chance to rectify a past failure.

[ Parent ]
You're looking at the wrong schools. (4.75 / 8) (#6)
by eann on Mon Oct 02, 2000 at 09:36:29 PM EST

Like another poster said, don't let anyone tell you you're not good enough.

There are many quality schools in the US that actually value real-world experience. Some even give credit towards a major for it. Start poking around college web sites and look for bizarre buzzword-phrases like "lifelong learning" or "university without walls".

Something else that may help: go to your local community college and do what it takes to get an Associate's degree. It ain't worth much more than your high school diploma, career-wise, but it says a lot to 4-year college admissions offices. It's a chance to show that you are again serious about academic work. And many states actually guarantee admission to state universities if you graduate from a community college. If you were far enough along before you dropped out, you may only have to take a couple classes to satisfy a general education requirement.

As for what to major in, if you still think you'd like to go a different route, well, that's up to you and your interests. If you like reading, consider literature. If you like the design aspects of web work, go towards art. Business programs can help you understand where manager-types are coming from, which makes it that much easier to get ahead. I, personally, minored in Philosophy because it helped me develop critical thinking, analysis, and even communication skills.

Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men. —MLK

$email =~ s/0/o/; # The K5 cabal is out to get you.

Ah, bullshit :-) (4.28 / 7) (#7)
by pete on Mon Oct 02, 2000 at 10:10:32 PM EST

I spoke with one of the admissions officers the colleges, and he said that work experience counts for almost nothing when you have an academic track record as poor as mine.

You don't want to go to that school anyway. I personally got booted from an Ivy League after one year (hello 0.6 GPA!) and found it easy to get into another school (not quite as good, of course) and finish my degree after taking a year off. Just talk to the admissions people, tell them your story, don't BS them, and you'll be fine. This clown is an exception, not the rule, in my experience.

Having said that: what do expect your degree to do for your? It sounds like you're happy with your experience; are you looking for a more solid foundation in CS or something to assist your career? I almost wish I had gotten a degree in business or management instead of CS sometimes. The time may come when you want to go out on your own, and all the web development skills in the world won't help you then. :-)


Academic Fresh Start (4.33 / 3) (#8)
by Scott Wood on Mon Oct 02, 2000 at 10:34:12 PM EST

Texas has a law for people in your situtation. You can be admitted under the Academic Fresh Start Program in which you can remove from consideration courses taken ten years prior to the semester in which you are applying. Perhaps your state has a similar program?

Re: Academic Fresh Start (4.00 / 2) (#10)
by blackwizard on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 12:23:39 AM EST

In California they have something similar -- it's called "Academic Renewal", I believe.

But hey -- nothing wrong with taking some non-CS major classes -- it's a good idea to expand your horizons... maybe a historym, photography, or journalism major would be fun. Most of the time, companies are only interested in if you can learn or not, (can you persist and get your degree?) ... then they take a look at what you have accomplished in your career.

Besides, with a degree in some other major that you might find interesting, you might be able to take some of the things you learn in that major and apply them to CS. Make a cool new breakthrough.

There are too many CS majors these days, anyway. I alsmost don't want to be one (I am) because it is so damned trendy. =)

[ Parent ]
Re: Academic Fresh Start (2.33 / 3) (#11)
by blackwizard on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 12:23:40 AM EST

In California they have something similar -- it's called "Academic Renewal", I believe.

But hey -- nothing wrong with taking some non-CS major classes -- it's a good idea to expand your horizons... maybe a historym, photography, or journalism major would be fun. Most of the time, companies are only interested in if you can learn or not, (can you persist and get your degree?) ... then they take a look at what you have accomplished in your career.

Besides, with a degree in some other major that you might find interesting, you might be able to take some of the things you learn in that major and apply them to CS. Make a cool new breakthrough.

There are too many CS majors these days, anyway. I alsmost don't want to be one (I am) because it is so damned trendy. =)

[ Parent ]
Re: Academic Fresh Start (3.00 / 2) (#16)
by kjeldar on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 02:48:28 AM EST

There are too many CS majors these days, anyway. I alsmost don't want to be one (I am) because it is so damned trendy. =)

I must confess to similar reservations. I'm a CS major at an American university, and I'm more than a little worried that loosening regulations WRT hiring 'ferriners' (as they're referred to in the local vernacular) combined with a glut of CS students entering the workforce, will make the bullish programming job market turn bearish in a severe hurry. If that happens, I can only hope that the lack of dedication of those who are in the field for the $ and not for love of the game will restore the favorable current conditions.

Perhaps that's the price techies pay in order to be quasi-socially-acceptable. Perhaps as long as there's enough of us to create a culture that demands respect, there'll also be enough of us to make it difficult for one another to find decent jobs. Perhaps the IT industry is doomed to a cycle of boom and bust, and the tech culture is similarly doomed to a cycle of glamorization and marginalization/ridicule.

On an unrelated note, I've abandoned That Other Site in favor of This Site. Let me tell you, it's good to be here.

[ Parent ]

Re: Academic Fresh Start (3.00 / 1) (#25)
by Not Jon Katz on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 12:46:34 PM EST

You are wise to be worried. We have seen these trends several times in recent history. When I graduated from school (business admin.) in 1990 the rage was physical and occupational therapy. The economy was poor, but these kids could name their price. My sister graduated in 1992 at double my salary ($45k per year) at the time. Needless to say that was a bit disheartening. Around that time MBA degrees were the hot ticket as well. Hot shot MBAs from all kinds of schools, top tier or not, were getting ridiculous offers from Wall Street firms. A few years later the market was glutted with OTs and PTs - most are graduating now and looking at the $25k - $30k salary range to start. MBAs are not getting huge bonuses to start either unless you come with good grades from a top school. Whether this will happen with tech careers is not predictable, but it *is* possible. Furthermore, with *any* downturn in the economy will affect production type jobs (programmers, assembly line workers, McDonalds workers) as much as the more highly skilled Computer Scientists (e.g. systems engineers).

[ Parent ]
Engineering? (3.00 / 2) (#9)
by Woodblock on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 12:11:26 AM EST

You could always look at doing software engineering, or whatever your school happens to call it. If it's in a different department they may not take your performance into account as much. Above all else though, don't let the people in the ivory towers tell you what the rest of your life is going to be like.
-- Real computer scientists don't use computers.
Many different ways to get back into school... (3.66 / 3) (#12)
by threemile on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 01:09:21 AM EST

In addition to the previously metioned ways to get back into school, you can look for a college with a continuing education program. Almost all universities I've looked at recently have had them (UCLA, UVM, Columbia...). While they will not put you into a CS program, they give you the opportunity to take some classes and prove you can do the work. These programs usually accept any adults, so you don't have to worry about convincing admissions about your sincerity (which sounds ridiculous to me - most schools are eager to accept applicants with life experience to add to their campus culture, and especially ones who are quite resolved to complete an education they may have taken for granted in the past). As an example, the University of Vermont has a program that essentially allows you to take classes, and enroll as student after one or two semesters of a 3.0gpa.

I'm sorry , but... (1.00 / 2) (#14)
by Colin Winters on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 02:07:15 AM EST

For all the wonders of computers, being a "techie" isn't much different from learning a trade like being a mechanic. You don't really need to go to school for either-just be trained in what you need to do. There's no point to going to college if you're already in the field doing code, just as there wouldn't be a point in going to college to learn how to arc weld. Many jobs you have to have college for-I couldn't just go off and work for Ford designing cars without a lot of schooling. If you've got a job, just stick with it.

Colin Winters

Talk to the admissions people (3.00 / 3) (#15)
by Dacta on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 02:35:57 AM EST

You'd be surprised how willing that are (at least here, in .au) to let in people who tried college when younger, and now want to return.

I knew someone who got into engineering at a major Australian university after being refused by the computerised admission system. He went and talked to admission, and it turned out he'd missed out because his mature-entry tests were a fraction of a percent below the required score. They told him not to worry about it, and put him straight in - but they wouldn't have unless he'd seemed talanted and eager to learn.

A few suggestions (4.00 / 4) (#17)
by Merekat on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 05:05:03 AM EST

First of all, I don't think much of that school's attitude. Where I went (TCD, Ireland), even if you fail everything, after an amnesty period you can go back into the normal admissions procedure or interview as a mature student where criteria such as work experience are important. After all, if you were completely hopeless and stupid, you wouldn't be able to hold down a job.

Secondly, don't get too hung up on having a purely technical qualification. You have work experience in the industry, and believe me, that matters. I did an arts degree and then switched to tech and once I'd gotten over the hurdle of persuading a company to take me on in a technical role despite my academic background, it was smooth sailing.

Thirdly, if all the colleges you try are really that shortsighted and you really want to get back to school, from my experience both English Literature and History would benefit from your perspective. I can't comment on any other subjects coz I didn't take them.

English could suit you if what you enjoy about what you do now is seeing different ways to interpret and arrange content for interesting and strange effect. I don't know about the states, but here there is a growing interest in the mixing of technology and literature. History is perfect, especially medieval, if what you enjoy is sorting, categorising and analysis of information. It will make you quite good at documentation too<g>

Basically, don't assume going to a non technical department is a poor second choice and try to look on it as an opportunity. I certainly don't regret my arts background. And it goes without saying to check out the focus of the different departments. Forget about whether they'll like you. You liking them is far more important for your second chance at school.
I've always had the greatest respect for other peoples crack-pot beliefs.
- Sam the Eagle, The Muppet Show

All good advice below, but (3.80 / 5) (#18)
by ie on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 07:50:23 AM EST

it also sounded like you wanted to possibly expand your career choices with your education. If you can't, or don't want to, go CS, there is another option: any hard science.

There will always be a need for people with CS-type skills in the hard sciences. That need is increasing (probably exponentially). Take physics, chemistry, biology, geology and within a semester you'll probably see a way to apply your tech skills to some problem in the field. You'll only enhance your attractiveness to grad school in that field (if you like it) with your work experience.

As a bonus, there is NO way they can even THINK about denying you access to CS courses if you're in a science major. If they do, get your major advisor to lean on them, and some of your major professors, too. They'll cave. As a result, you'll have expanded job opportunities - not only will you be desirable in CS/tech related fields, but you'll also be attractive to research/commercial companies who always need techies who have some knowledge of their field.

One Option (3.00 / 4) (#19)
by thejeff on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 08:48:09 AM EST

If you do want the CS degree, apply for another major, get accepted, do a semester and then change majors. Especially if you can fit a programming and/or math class into that first semester (and of course do well). Changing majors is usually more up to the departments who will be more likely to consider your work experience.


Don't give up - it's not impossible... (3.50 / 2) (#20)
by slambo on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 08:48:40 AM EST

(this tends to ramble a bit, but you're not alone in your predicament)

Last month I finally finished my own BS/CS degree after going through a similar set of troubles the first time around. Throughout junior high and high school it was just assumed that I would attend one of the University of California schools and get a BS in Comp Sci, then go on for a higher degree. I graduated HS and went on to enroll at UC Riverside where I spent four years, but in the fourth year, I stopped attending classes, spending my time playing Tetris or Mahjongg or reading Usenet. It's not too hard to figure out what happened to my GPA after that...

For a while, I didn't want anything to do with tech jobs, and went through several years of bad temp jobs. Finally, I got a job where I was allowed to explore programming at my own pace. I relearned C++, learned Clipper, and resparked my interest. After a move to Wisconsin, I took more tech-intensive support jobs, and then applied to night school at Lakeland College's (http://www.lakeland.edu) Madison WI campus. In one of the classes that I attended there, I made the connections to a new programming job.

Sure it was hard work, and the 8 years between failing out of UCR and moving to Wisconsin didn't do much for my career, but it's given me a perspective and experiences that most of the new graduating classes don't have. It's not impossible to get a degree, but you won't be able to apply directly to the big name colleges (as you've found out). Here in Madison, there are about ten different colleges and universities offering adult education, from the UW to Cardinal Stritch to Lakeland to Upper Iowa U. Night programs aren't for everyone, but at least they start with the premise that their students are serious about learning and have lives outside of school.
Sean Lamb
"A day without laughter is a day wasted." -- Groucho Marx
Try something technical, but different. (3.00 / 2) (#21)
by h0tr0d on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 08:54:52 AM EST

Once upon a time I was an automotive technician. I was fortunate to be doing future product development for one of the big three. Ever since I was a kid I had wanted to be a mechanical engineer. This job changed all that. At this point in my life I had made three attempts at college and had repeatedly found that I preferred to work over going to school. I discovered that most of the mechanical engineers that I worked for really had their head in the ground. It always amazed me to watch how little they actually knew or cared about what they were doing. Well, in the fall of '96 I decided that I had had enough and it was time to hit the books (with a goal of graduating prioir to Y2K). Naturally, my original plan was the ME route. Yet the more I researched schools, programs, etc. the more I realized that what I needed was a change. So I went out on a limb and did the whole electronics thing. Now I'm an embedded systems software engineer. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and have learned much about myself and have made many great friends along the way. However, I also know that it's not for me. I love the technology, etc. but I personally can't stand being chained to a cubicle all day. So I am now in search of another job. I already have one in mind and have found that every prospective employer that I have talked to doesn't really care what my degree is in. Just that I got it. In fact my studies focused on hardware design and here I am a software engineer. A decision I made late in the game so it was too late to pick up all of the software classes. So it took some work in my spare time( like I had any of that!) but it was worth it. When I interviewed with my present employer I was repreatedly asked why I thought they should hire a hardware person to do software. I proved through the knowledge that I had gained on my own that I was up to the task. Just keep in mind from the beginning that the plans you make now may not look as good in a few years.

I consider myself fortunate because I was able to complete my degree in three years and had the opportunity to work my way through my last year doing hardware for a small start up. What an experience. The most important thing out of all of this was that I went into the whole thing knowing that the outcome might be different than originally planned. Fours years ago I would have thought that right now I'd be designing control systems, ASIC's, or SOC's. So now my plan is to make this wealth of technical knowledge into a great hobby. I'll finally get around to those pet projects that have been piling up for years and maybe I can do some good with it by working with some of the technologically disadvantaged kids or something. Who knows.

-- It appears that my spleeing chucker isn't working again.

Consider Business Schools, too... (3.50 / 2) (#22)
by csmacd on Tue Oct 03, 2000 at 09:58:41 AM EST

Many Universities have an MIS-type degree under the Business school. Yes, Econ 101 is boring, but it'll get you the degree...

It might be worth asking about provisional admission - some universities will admit students on provisional basis, where performance in the first 2-3 classes will let them become "real" students...

Also, look online - some of the universities offering distance learning seem to be more open to "bad" records...

Alternate Areas of Studies for Techies? | 26 comments (26 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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