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[P]
More stories need to make it to the front page

By Neuromancer in Culture
Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 10:53:49 AM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

Guys, I really like K5. Rusty, I think that your site flat out kicks ass, and the software is great. I do have one thought though. We need to provide a bit more content.

This isn't something that should fall on Rusty's shoulders, this is something that WE as the members of this board should do. Think about it. If we post more, and vote more stories UP, the following will happen.

1) We post more.
2) We vote more stories up.
3) There is more content, and more people become engaged in this site.
4) More people, more submissions, more content.
5) More content, more to read, more selection, easier to sort the wheat from the chaff.
6) Higher caliber stories, more selectiveness, and we get the news as it breaks.


Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I think that as long as a story is accurate, or at least funny to laugh at, it should get posted. Even if it doesn't interest you, it might interest someone else. We're not even seeing 5 posts a day make it to the main page, but we easily could be. A lot of people would probably become more engrossed in the site if there were more for them to read. I really like K5, and I would like to see it grow to a point where there is a steady flow of reading material to feed my hungry eyes. I am sure that a lot of you would too, but if we don't vote more stories up, we're not going to get that. I also think that a lot of people are a bit shy to post, for fear of having their story ripped apart by the sharks from our member-base.

So, in review, do us all a favor

Make sure that at least three stories get posted today.

Within the next week, make it your goal to submit at least 1 story.

If everybody does this, I think that we will really see a difference, and the site will be even more enjoyable for everyone.

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Display: Sort:
More stories need to make it to the front page | 65 comments (65 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
I disagree. (4.85 / 7) (#1)
by genehack on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 08:51:09 AM EST

We might (might!) need more good stories, but that's not a reason to encourage either bulk up-voting (to get more things to the front) or mass loading of the queue. One of the reasons I come to K5 is because of the general high quality of the posts and high S:N ratio in the subsequent discussion. If you want someplace with lots of stories, and lots of followups, it's out there. Some of us are here precisely because we've been There, and didn't care for it.

Actually, the more I think about it -- I'm not even sure we need more stories. It's all I can do to read and participate in the ones I find interesting -- posting (what I hope is) quality followup takes time -- and I think if the 'churn' on the site increased dramatically, I'd eventually end up giving up the fight.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, just because something is good, doesn't necessarily need that 10X something will also be good.

(All that said, I voted +1 on this story, because I think it's worth talking about. IIRC, the first time I've voted one of yours up, Neuromancer.)

john,
still pre-coffee.

Re: I disagree. (3.70 / 3) (#3)
by Anonymous Hero on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 09:00:40 AM EST

I think what we really need is for stories to spend less time in the queue, and for more stories to be dumped. A lot of what makes it to the front page is just a brief news story. People are too nice about moderating.

[ Parent ]
Re: I disagree. (none / 0) (#6)
by modred on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 09:37:40 AM EST

I agree with this thread - I think that the time a story spends in the queue needs to be shortened, that quality stories should be the only ones posted, and that more comments needs to be posted in the story. I think that the last two are tied together - the better the stories the better the comments on them. I rather read one or two good stories a day and their associated discussions than a lot of irrelevant stuff (especially stuff that is posted at Other Sites). I thus disagree with points 2 and 5 of the original story. I think it would add more chaff to seperate the wheat from.

[ Parent ]
Re: I disagree. (Slight rant) (4.00 / 1) (#7)
by squigly on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 09:53:32 AM EST

Y'know, I think this could be a problem with getting a decent debate going. Everyone keeps on agreeing with each other. Is there anything controversial around here?

--
People who sig other people have nothing intelligent to say for themselves - anonimouse
[ Parent ]
Yep. (2.00 / 2) (#9)
by Cariset on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 10:08:12 AM EST

Gun Control. :P

[ Parent ]
You commie faceist rat-bastard (none / 0) (#57)
by error 404 on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 11:06:19 AM EST

Guns don't kill people, people kill guns.

No, wait...

Guns don't kill people, bullets do.

No, that's not it either...

Guns don't kill, people, massive tissue damage and blood loss does.

OK, let's ban that.
..................................
Electrical banana is bound to be the very next phase
- Donovan

[ Parent ]

:-) (none / 0) (#58)
by error 404 on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 04:40:06 PM EST

That should have gone in the message above.

I have to remember these thinds...
..................................
Electrical banana is bound to be the very next phase
- Donovan

[ Parent ]
Re: I disagree. (Slight rant) (3.00 / 1) (#22)
by sugarman on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 01:21:52 PM EST

I've noticed the same thing. I;m not complaining mind you. I kind of like it here, right now.

It feels more like parts of the net did back in '93-96 (My university years), where some of the mailing lists, and usenet weren't quite the blackholes they are now. Now, I only find that in some mailing-lists, and the odd newsgroup. Only newsgroups that are relatively fresh, like the pre-release NG for a game or a cult show that hasn't gained wide acceptance. (ie alt.tv.iron-chef as recently as last september, or the EQ beta lists prior to release)

But as to lack of heated debates? Hmmm, I think part of that may be attributed to K5's editorial policy, which differs from /. or some of the other sites. Part of it is shown before every comment you post. Mostly, the fact that any comment you make may be vaped at the whim of the editor, and that your account (and thus identity can be hosed just as easily, may make people a little more tenacious about voicing their disagreements.

Note, however, that I'm not saying that this is wrong. This is Rusty's site, and it is his to do with as he wants. We're all just guests here, and sometimes you need to kick out the guy thats had too many shots of Tequila and is puking in your sink. Just a thought.

Sides, what's wrong with getting along?
--sugarman--
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree. (Slight rant) (3.00 / 1) (#35)
by genehack on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 02:15:38 PM EST

Mostly, the fact that any comment you make may be vaped at the whim of the editor, and that your account (and thus identity can be hosed just as easily, may make people a little more tenacious about voicing their disagreements.

Going totally OT here -- but if you're using 'tenacious' to mean tenative, I have to say the possibility of having a post or my account pulled has never entered my mind before, during, or after a K5 post. Just like Usenet, K5 is a public 'place' -- so I don't act any differently than I do in public.

Many of the problems you cite strike me as more due to certain people (you know, the "Eternal September" people) thinking that any degree of anoniminity means they're free to act like a tired, particularly ill-behaved two-year-old crack baby.

One of the nice things about K5 is that people here seem to realize that that just ain't so.

john,
gittin' into that K5 addiction, baby!

[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree. (Slight rant) (4.00 / 1) (#36)
by rusty on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 02:35:27 PM EST

I have to say the possibility of having a post or my account pulled has never entered my mind before, during, or after a K5 post.

And it certainly shouldn't have! I'll never drop posts for being merely argumentative, even to the point of personal attacks. I will drop them for being useless and offtopic (where "useless" is defined in it's most extreme sense -- i.e. basically off of any topic even remotely connected to the one at hand). I'm not the cops, I'm not here to make sure everyone plays nice with each other, I'm just here to make sure that you don't have to wade through all the (-1) skript kiddee crap to get to actual comments. This seems often-misunderstood, but genehack has it right here. If you're still not sure, find some of the gun-control threads, and see how argumentative it can get without me stepping in at all. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree. (Slight rant) (3.00 / 1) (#38)
by sugarman on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 02:56:48 PM EST

Fair enough. Perhaps spending too much time in hell lately.

But in any event, I haven't really felt that anyone here needs to be hauled off and beaten. Well, except for Neuromancer when he starts these [META] threads. :)
I think that says a lot about the community that exists here. And that's not a bad thing.
--sugarman--
[ Parent ]

Wow (1.50 / 2) (#37)
by Neuromancer on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 02:53:22 PM EST

Wow dude, look how deeply nested your comment is. It's almost like IRC ;-)

[ Parent ]
Sorry, but I disagree (4.00 / 4) (#2)
by Skippy on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 08:58:13 AM EST

Bzzzzt. Sorry, but please play again :-)

I happen to think that we are doing ok, especially for still being young. Right now if we posted more stuff the signal to noise ratio would be pretty bad. What needs to happen is that we need more QUALITY submissions.

The problem is that you have to have two things for good quality submissions.

  1. Someone with time on their hands to surf and find good things to discuss
  2. Someone articulate enough to appropriately express themselves and construct their story in such a manner as to provide a seed which a conversation can form around.
I think we are getting there and we just haven't reached critical mass yet. I do think that with the people here we could have some more user-generated content though. There are several people here whose opinions I respect enought that I wouldn't mind an opinion/editorial piece from them.
# I am now finished talking out my ass about things that I am not qualified to discuss. #
Re: Sorry, but I disagree (3.50 / 2) (#49)
by Anonymous Hero on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 09:46:52 PM EST

Bzzzzt. Sorry, but please play again :-)

Ugh. It's bad enough to use this tired old phrase when some one is factually wrong, but to say it about someone's opinion? Come on.

[ Parent ]

Submission voting (4.00 / 3) (#4)
by Bradley on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 09:05:14 AM EST

I think one of the problems is that the voting goes on for too long. A score of roughly 35-40 is needed to promote a story to the front page, IIRC.

At the moment, the other submission in the queue has been there for 12 hours, and has a score of 27 - so its about 75% of the way there, and could be expected to be posted in about 4 hours - 2/3 of a day after someone submitted it. But 110 people have cared enough to vote (just over 4 times the net score). I don't know what the current active (taking into account timezones and so on) population of kuro5hin is, but if a story gets that much interest (and most of them tend to, eventually) with no outcome, I think that it should be posted anyway.

Some submissions stay in the queue for several days before they are dropped, and for current affairs type stories, its often irrelevant (and people have already read the comments) by then.

Not sure what the solutions is though...

Re: Submission voting (3.00 / 1) (#8)
by orthox on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 10:02:14 AM EST

One possibility, and I'm new to the site, could be to prevent anyhting but editorial comments on the news until it hits the frontpage. Admittedly this could lead to the abuse of editorial comments, but it could get more people to send it there to talk about it. I have noticed the discussion ususally begins well before it hits the frontpage.

Another possibility might be to include non-editorial posts for a story in queue as either a vote (x per user, or based on users base rating) or another weighting system. When it gets heavy enough from posts, it will float to the frontpage.

Then again the percentage for the existing system could just be lowered...

[ Parent ]

Re: Submission voting (4.00 / 1) (#11)
by error 404 on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 10:23:22 AM EST

Preventing anything but editorial comments would just cause more people to post topical comments flagged as editorial. But I'd like to see something change - not only is the discussion well under way before a story hits the front page, it is often more or less over by then.

I'd like to see more stories come in, though. Not one from each reader in the next week, though - that would be too many.

My suggestions for each of us:

  • Post more stories. Longer, more in-depth stories.
  • Vote strictly, but comment considerately. Having a story voted down, I imagine isn't as discouraging as a bunch of harsh comments.
  • Answer an existing comment when it makes sonse, rather than always starting a new thread.

..................................
Electrical banana is bound to be the very next phase
- Donovan

[ Parent ]
Re: Submission voting (4.00 / 1) (#21)
by Skippy on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 01:21:38 PM EST

I don't think there is anything wrong with the discussion starting before it hits the front page. What difference does it make when the discussion starts? It in no way prevents you from commenting or continuing the discussion. If you are upset about coming into the discussion late then read the submission queue and vote and post.

Someone in another thread said that often times the discussion seems over before it hits the front page. I think that it's often well on its way, but not over. I think this is caused by the fact that the people who care enough to vote often are the same people who care enough to post. Its been my experience that they are also the same people who post many of the comments I consider insightful or informative. This sometimes prevents others from commenting because they don't want to post "me too" comments but it shouldn't inhibit real discussion.

I'm not sure about the comments weighted as votes part of your post. It's an idea which requires consideration.
# I am now finished talking out my ass about things that I am not qualified to discuss. #
[ Parent ]

Re: Submission voting (4.00 / 1) (#25)
by Skippy on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 01:38:46 PM EST

110 people have cared to vote, but that does not make the story worth posting. That's people caring enough to vote and the two are separate issues. The ONLY judge of a value of a story should be the percentage of yes votes it gets.
# I am now finished talking out my ass about things that I am not qualified to discuss. #
[ Parent ]
I disagree. (4.40 / 5) (#5)
by eann on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 09:10:37 AM EST

More is not always better. In fact, as seen occasionally at Other Sites, it's usually worse.

K5 doesn't have to be king of anything. We, as a community, have nothing to prove. I think the number of stories posted here works well, because everyone has a reasonable chance to read everything and still get on with their lives, too (some of us do have work and school and such to occupy our non-K5 hours). Given the choice, I'd rather be a smaller site where, if we think about the stories and comment when we have something to say, we can get to know each other (by nickname, anyway), and develop a sense of trust in the community. The alternative is thousands of random people discussing random stuff all over the place, and the only handles that look familiar are the lusers with nothing to do all day but try to post in every story. That's not a community, it's a crowd.

Okay, I can be realistic. K5 won't stay small and cozy forever, but I think we're on track to grow slowly and carefully so that this doesn't turn into MLP central. On a practical side, if all 2000 (ro so) registered K5 members submitted something within the next week, the 200 or so of us that actually check the queue regularly would be totally overwhelmed (nearly 300 posts a day). Nothing would get posted, because none of us would want to read them all. We'd skim the list for a couple headlines that looked interesting, and everything else would sit and rot.

If you're looking for 5 stories a day now, go to some Other Site. Set your comment filter high enough and you might actually see some discussion, too. Or, slightly more complicated, go to 5 different weblogs a day and read one thoughtful new story on each. K5, as much as we all love it, is not the only place where good discussion can happen for articles about techy stuff.

The improvement I'd like to see around here is to have more people actually comment on stories. Well, that, and better underlying HTML. :)

Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men. —MLK

$email =~ s/0/o/; # The K5 cabal is out to get you.


Re: I disagree. (4.00 / 1) (#34)
by Demona on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 02:09:59 PM EST

Right with you on the "other weblogs"; this is what I love about syndicated headlines, that it makes it easier to quickly skim through the daily mountains of chaff for those bits of wheat. (Memepool is a good example others have cited, and their news items are always chock full of hyperlinks, to touch on another recent discussion.) And also that more comments, not more stories, would be preferable; I almost feel guilty for having my own irons in so many fires right now that I haven't posted much of substance here in weeks. ("When did you ever?" the peanut gallery responds...)

[ Parent ]
More Stories (3.00 / 1) (#10)
by eann on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 10:18:23 AM EST

An idea to get more stories (if that's what we really want):

Anything that gets more topical comments than 'no' votes while in queue should automatically be posted. :)

Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men. —MLK

$email =~ s/0/o/; # The K5 cabal is out to get you.


Re: More Stories (4.00 / 1) (#43)
by Tr3534 on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 05:25:00 PM EST

That wouldn't work. Someone posts the story, post 1 topical comment, no has voted 'no' yet.... boom. Instant front page. You would have to add a time delay.... maybe 4 hours or so, or maybe after x number of votes.

Even if you do go that way, i still don't quite agree. Tends to distract from the reason that the voting system is there in the first place.
Sigmentation Fault: Post Dumped.
[ Parent ]
(4.00 / 2) (#12)
by Matthew Guenther on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 10:56:12 AM EST

As has been mentioned above, I also think that the content level we have now is good. Quality over quantity and all that. If you want lots of stories go to slashdot, they have to meet their story quota regardless of whether they are any good. The criteria for a story should be whether it is a good discussion piece, not some press release, or a news story ripped directly from news.com.

Nowhere in the mission statement does it say kuro5hin wants to become:

  • big
  • a news site

And I'm glad for that. If not one new member joined, ever, after today, I would be happy. Also, if 10,000 more people joined, I would be happy. But they should join because they like what exists, not because we changed our format to court "the masses".

MBG



I Disagree (4.00 / 1) (#13)
by avdi on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 10:59:53 AM EST

I voted for this story, but I'm afraid I disagree with it... Others have said it better, I'll just reiterate: there are plenty of bulk-news sites. I come to K5 for lengthy, provocative write-ups and thoughtful discussion. As a matter of fact, I really don't see K5 as a news site, since many of the stories posted are several days old. This, IMHO, is, or can be, a Good Thing. Let slashdot or Geeknews or Wired or Salon etc. post the initial story... let K5 post a writeup once people have had enough time to think about it and sort out the intitial inaccuracies.

--
Now leave us, and take your fish with you. - Faramir
Should get time to Discuss a topic exhaustively (3.50 / 4) (#14)
by Manish on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 12:05:42 PM EST

I think K5 needn't be like Slashdot, where you don't even get the time to discuss a topic to its fullest before its gone in the "older stories" list.

Let the stories stay. Let the discussion mature.

And let the readers absorb something from the stories.
Manish.

Just post everything then... (3.80 / 4) (#15)
by KindBud on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 12:13:16 PM EST

Forget the moderation queue, every story goes to the front page as soon as its submitted. Then we'll have more content. It'll be just like Yahoo message boards, something for everyone to read. Yeah that's the ticket.

--
just roll a fatty

It's an option I've suggested, with add'l features (none / 0) (#53)
by kmself on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 04:01:44 AM EST

Not sure how tongue-in-cheek (if at all) that suggestion is, but there's a certain logic to posting everything to the front page, and adjusting placement by some combination of factors (say: number of posts, votes, recentness of posts, and article age). This would let good stuff roll up high quickly, bad stuff roll off, and persistant stuff stick around for a bit. To a certain extent, I think the whole submission queue is becoming a bit redundant, though a feature for quickies (MLP -- mindless link propogation) would be helpful.

Mind you, figuring out how to deal with the rating and scoring system would be a PITA. It's a rough approximation of how the IWETHEY board at EZBoard works, though (current topics float up), and it is pretty effective.

--
Karsten M. Self
SCO -- backgrounder on Caldera/SCO vs IBM
Support the EFF!!
There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

Don't really agree with that (3.50 / 2) (#16)
by spiralx on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 12:13:40 PM EST

I don't read kuro5hin as religiously as slashdot certainly, but I check here at least once a day, and I'll usually read all the stories here - as other people have said because there are some good writeups (unlike slashdot for sure) and some interesting discussion here. I personally prefer /. because it's more rambunctuous (sp?), but I can see how that puts a lot of people off. I generally browse the web at work and don't have time to get engaged in a deep conversation on a topic, otherwise I'd post here more. And I don't troll kuro5hin :)

But both sites have their own plus points, and making kuro5hin more quick 'n' dirty wouldn't benefit it at all IMHO - you might get more hits, but that'll come in time assuming quality remains as high as it is now. /. has a lot of problems due to its size and popularity, and in time k5 may suffer the same - for instance spammers could submit a story and then flood it with +1's to get it posted. Rusty can't be there all the time...

Anyway, this is a rambling post, so feel free to disagree, after all, that's what makes a good discussion :)


You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey

Volume Low; Quality High (3.00 / 2) (#17)
by GoRK on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 12:37:29 PM EST

What you're talking about here is simply a tradeout of volume vs. quality. Can we get the volume? Sure, I can copy every headline from slashdot and 32bitsOnline and Freshmeat and NAMEYOURFAVORITEWEBLOG onto this site, but what good does it do? I dont come to K5 for rehashed slashdot.

One of my beefs with slashdot is that the stories go by so fast and furious that the quality in the discussions is next to nothing. As an example, when they posted the article on the DivX codec coming to Linux via tying to a win32 dll, I really wanted to get a good discussion going on the possibility of using other (granted proprietary closed source) codecs from the windows media player to extend the multimedia capabilities further (all those .ax codecs for WMP would enable us Linux gearheads to play a lot of new unplayable stuff).. Heck, I wanted to talk about the possibility of using Linux to stream WMA! Slashdot gave me about 2 hours to accomplish this among 500 comments that were basically people that didnt understand the difference between Circut City DIVX and DivX ;-)

So that rant being accomplished, I do think the volume here on K5 is low -- maybe too low -- but the quality of the discussion and the time that I can take to really get some good ideas thrown around makes up for it by far! If we can get the volume of stories up a little bit, then I'd be very happy; but if it means playing second fiddle to other weblogs, then count me out. I tend to vote down submissions reposted from other sites (unless they need some serious discussion here) and I dont think that the desire for more articles on the front page is going to change my mind about that.

The most comforting thing about K5 is that I feel like that if I have something interesting to bring forward, It wont get lost in the fray either in the submissions queue or on the "font page" if it makes it. K5 makes me feel a lot less left-out. Let's keep it that way -- even if we do turn up the volume on the postings!

~GoRK

Bingo. Commercial site's "daily summary -- x (none / 0) (#54)
by kmself on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 04:10:04 AM EST

This is about collaborative filtering, and the whole point is for the filter to catch some of the crud.

A commercial IT news site has a daily email summary I've subscribed to for a couple of years -- hasn't quite exceeded my annoyance threshhold, but it came very close when they went from a single issue/day format to two posts/day. My response was to cancel the second posting, and to shoot a pointed email that their job, IMVAO, is to filter out the essential news. If that's not something they can fit in a single posting, that's their problem, not mine.

Less is more.

--
Karsten M. Self
SCO -- backgrounder on Caldera/SCO vs IBM
Support the EFF!!
There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

No No No (4.00 / 1) (#18)
by Nyarlathotep on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 12:37:51 PM EST

No, we do not want a bling vote yes campaign! We want good write ups. People wil provide good write ups if the voters enforce it. We can go to slashdot for the crappy link propogation. I believe Rusty has said that he did not want to set kuro5hin of being better then slashdot at being slashdot. He want kuro5hin to be it's own thing. Well quality write ups are plenty uniq enough. Now, it's worth mentioning that we willl eventually have problems withg trolls with lots of accounds voting the wrong stories up and down, but there are ways of fixing that. Example: "Rob Malda is a child molestor" gets posted as a story because it's author has a lot of accounts to vote for it with, but then Rusty can set the software to ignore votes from the accounts which fote for this story.
Campus Crusade for Cthulhu -- it found me!
Re: No No No (4.50 / 2) (#23)
by warpeightbot on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 01:28:39 PM EST

Hodaphone here. I've been building a big beef about this "writeup" stuff for weeks now... everybody's carping about "good story, lousy writeup." I myself got tagged for that for the Courtney Love article, something Rusty eventually saw fit to put above the fold.

Guys, it's like my English prof told me. Reports should be like skirts. Long enough to cover the subject, but short enough to be interesting. If you can convince me that the link you're waving in front of my face is interesting in one line, so be it; I don't need five paragraphs of sunshine blown up my arse. I can click a link as well as the next guy.

F'rexample, "Kernel 2.2.16 is out, get'em while they're hot" is far more effective than cutting and pasting the whole fscking release notes.... if there's something important, say so, but KISS for Seldon's sake. Compromise:

Kernel 2.2.16 is out, fixes an evil nasssty security bug (see link for details).

One line, to the point, hits the highlights, and gets the hell out. Even in the days of 1.5mbit to the bedroom, server-side bandwidth is still precious; serve up a full KB of mindless cut'n'paste to fifty thousand lusers, and you've wasted a bunch of it.

So I'll shut up now. [/rant]

[ Parent ]

Re: No No No (3.50 / 2) (#27)
by Arkady on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 01:49:06 PM EST

You're right, of course, that the simplicity principle is important. What several folks here are saying, I think, and what I'd like to say as well is that that's not the sort of thing we want K5 to cover. Certainly announcements and Link Propagation can be expressed well in a single sentence, but there are lots of other venues for that (FreshMeat springs to mind).

What I see in K5 that makes it itself, rather than Yet Another Slashdot Clone(tm), is the depth of thought and discourse that's lacking on the Other Sites.

That said, I do think we should have a category for announcements (restricted to collective and non-profit endeavors; I don't want to see normal commercial ventures here). We'd probably want to put in a category filter as well, so that folks with accounts can list the categories they want to see or not see.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
Re: No No No (3.00 / 1) (#46)
by warpeightbot on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 05:36:42 PM EST

What I see in K5 that makes it itself, rather than Yet Another Slashdot Clone(tm), is the depth of thought and discourse that's lacking on the Other Sites.
True, but IMHO that discourse is better put in the comments following, rather than the original writeup... unless, of course, critiquing the writeup is the whole point, or (totally different scenario) the writeup is value-added and not just an executive summary (which variety of post makes you wish you had a vote of +2 :)

That said, I do think we should have a category for announcements (restricted to collective and non-profit endeavors; I don't want to see normal commercial ventures here). We'd probably want to put in a category filter as well, so that folks with accounts can list the categories they want to see or not see.
Now we're talking.

Question along those lines: What about freeware that commercial software houses put out? Like Star*Office, or Red Hat, or the latest version of something (devilish laugh) Microsoft put out under the BSD license? I don't know as I have an opinion yet; this is just a topic for some more of that deep thought and discourse we all know and love.

Enough rant.

[ Parent ]

Re: No No No (none / 0) (#47)
by Arkady on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 07:11:27 PM EST

That's a point. My intention was to establish a responsibility on the author's part to at least start the discussion by providing _some_ form of argument. Is the topic good? bad? irelevant to the modern world? That would start and guide the later discourse.

I'd probably vote + on an MS freeware/sourceware announcement just for the novelty factor. ;-)

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
Re: No No No (4.00 / 1) (#39)
by Nyarlathotep on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 04:09:56 PM EST

Ok, well we can have mindless link propogation when Rusty figures out some clever way of doing Quickies. We have entirly too much duplication with slashdot now. Actually, this thread has convinced me to join the band of people who vote down stories which were posted on slashdot (unless the write up is MUCH better here). Anyway, I do not want to read about Kernel releases here period! That's what freasmeat dose. I want to read interesting analysis of things having to do with technology AND culture, i.e. link propogation of technology only stories would get a -2 ( = -1 link propogation + -1 irrelevent) if I could give a story that score. Now, it is importent to keep things short whenver possible. We do not want a John Katz, but you don't need to worry about that.. I'll be just as happy to vote a story down for saing the same thing twice (Katz says the same thing 1000 times in an article) as for not saing enough.
Campus Crusade for Cthulhu -- it found me!
[ Parent ]
More writeup, less skirt (none / 0) (#55)
by kmself on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 04:15:49 AM EST

First off, that Love article was a great pointer -- though granted it was all over the Net like greased lightening. Thanks for that. I MLPd it to a couple of places myself and was thanked for it, so back at you.

WRT writeups -- "more writeup" is pretty much my standard rant. I do feel, fairly strongly, that a story should provide at the very least enough context to understand why a post is worth considering.

How much is enough -- the queue should provide the answer. I've seen some scant articles posted, I've seen long ones (often rants) panned. To a certain extent, the queue provides guidance.

My own observation over the past several weeks has been that we're a pretty brutal bunch -- the number of articles knocked off the queue (when I've had a chance to look over the course of the day) is pretty impressive. I think we've got a relatively high bar, and frankly, I'm glad to see it.

--
Karsten M. Self
SCO -- backgrounder on Caldera/SCO vs IBM
Support the EFF!!
There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

I don't think so... (4.00 / 2) (#19)
by Oxryly on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 01:02:47 PM EST

First of all

2) We vote more stories up.

...

6) Higher caliber stories, more selectiveness, and we get the news as it breaks.

We can't be more selective if we just blindly vote more stories up.

I have to agree with previous posters... one thing that is annoying about slashdot.org is that the stories roll through too quickly. On kuro5hin its nice when there's a story I'm really interested in sticks around for a day or two gather comments and responses...

Perhaps the goal should not be to necessarily bring more people to the site, but to bring more quality discussion to the site.

I don't think just going for more stories submitted, more stories posted, will accomplish that.

The recent changes to submission comments, editorial or normal, are very good steps in the right direction. I'm also glad to see several weaker story submissions not make it to the front page.

Stay the course...

Oxryly

Weekend slowdown (3.00 / 1) (#20)
by sugarman on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 01:06:25 PM EST

While I do agree with some of the other posters here about this not being an issue for the most part, there is one instance where it does come into play.

There seems to be a weekend slowdown, where stories get "stuck" in the queue, and often don't get released. Discussion slows down as well.

I suspect a large part of this is due to the fact that most people here are reading K5 during their "lunch break", or from work computers, and don't think to log on during the weekend. I know that I'm often the same way. However, when the we get a rainy weekend, or the temperature drops, then I often find myself surfing, and I'm a little disappointed to find that "the lights are on, but no-one's home" at K5.

Anyone else feel the same way, or have thoughts on how this might be rectified?
--sugarman--

Re: Weekend slowdown (3.00 / 1) (#28)
by Arkady on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 01:53:13 PM EST

Well, you all could stop taking weekends off ... ;-)

Since I'm self-employed, and so are most of my immediate friends, my weekends are no different from my weekdays except that if I do go out the streets will be way more packed since the normals are all off work.

You could also start shuffling your weeks around so that, instead of Saturday and Sunday, you take another pair off. You'd get the added advantage that the city is a lot less packed during the times that everyone else is at work.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
Weekend weblog traffic. (4.00 / 1) (#48)
by StatGrape on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 09:02:31 PM EST

From my own experience, as well as that of people I've discussed this with, most technology-based weblogs see a steep drop in traffic over the weekend (in my case, barely half that of mid-week) and so what you're seeing is very likely the simple result of reduced hit numbers.

I ran a 'highly scientific' poll awhile ago asking where people most often visit my site from, and it turned out that close to 45% of the respondants visit from work, so I guess it makes sense that weekends should be slower. Then again, I don't usually add content on the weekends, so maybe that has something to do with it too.

NerdPerfect
[ Parent ]

Re: Weekend weblog traffic. (4.00 / 1) (#50)
by sugarman on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 12:58:43 AM EST

Fair enough. If you don't add content on the weekends, your audience comes to expect this, and doesn't tune in.

However, the nature of K5 is that content can be sitting there, from Friday evening on, wanting to be released, yet unable to fulfill its destiny, like the mighty salmon trying to swim upriver to its birthplace so that it may spawn, only to find some tools have built a dam across the stream...ah, er, where was I?

Right, the point is, maybe there should be a lower threshold for weekend stories so that some content does come through, giving those of us around during the weekend something to yap about? Just a thought.
--sugarman--
[ Parent ]

Sorta OT:The Hotlist Function of K5 (4.66 / 3) (#24)
by Skippy on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 01:36:34 PM EST

This really belongs as a reply to several comments here, but I thought it important enough to merit its own thread. Many people seem to be concerned about stories going by too fast for discussion. Rusty has thoughtfully provided a means, called the Hotlist, to avoid this.

If you look in the Posted by line of the story headline you will notice to the right a link which says "Add to my Hotlist". This will add a box to the upper right of K5 that says "My Hotlist" and has a list of the stories you are interested in and the number of comments that story has generated. A story stays in your hotlist even after it has left the front page. This allows you to follow a story and the discussion it generates.

This K5 public service announcement has been brought to you by Skippy
# I am now finished talking out my ass about things that I am not qualified to discuss. #

Re: Sorta OT:The Hotlist Function of K5 (3.00 / 1) (#29)
by Arkady on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 01:55:37 PM EST

I'd also add, for you folks who have posted stories, that you should add anything of your own to the hotlist. Folks who write and post should keep track of the discussions on their posts, since presumably they're posting to elicit a discussion, right?

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
Re: Sorta OT:The Hotlist Function of K5 (3.00 / 1) (#30)
by Arkady on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 01:58:54 PM EST

Heh. I was going to put this in the previous comment, but I forgot when I got back to the console:

Another thing posters should do fairly often, even posters of comments and not articles, is click on your little "User Info" link. It'll list your most recent comment posts and how many responses they've had. This way you can tell that someone's replied and go read it. You can't hold a discussion unless you know when someone else's said something.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
Re: Sorta OT:The Hotlist Function of K5 (5.00 / 1) (#40)
by abe1x on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 04:39:43 PM EST

Only problem with the hotlists is that no one uses them there for they don't work. Basic chicken or egg problem here. Nothing I've ever hotlisted has gotten more then 5 or 6 comments after it's left the front page. The discussions don't continue and I stop hotlisting articles. Every once and a while I try again but so far the hotlist phenomona has yet to reach critical mass.

My solution of choice is the have articles ranked in order of recent responces so that popular articles stay on the front page until the discussion dies. Only problem is I can't program so my options are to comment, beg or kidnap a programmer.

As reply to replies to your own comments, K5 is a bit lacking, its the only area I know where it is easier to get stuff done on /. then here. Shouldn't be that hard to generate a page with all the replies to you on it should it? Currently you can go to your user profile and see your comments listed, which you can then use to get to the replies, way ackward. Can't complain to much thought, with the S/N ratio still way high.

[ Parent ]

Re: Sorta OT:The Hotlist Function of K5 (4.00 / 1) (#41)
by genehack on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 04:53:31 PM EST

Only problem with the hotlists is that no one uses them there for they don't work.

Not "no one". I use them; have been ever since somebody pointed them out. Actually, I'm trying to get into the habit of hotlisting every story I post about, because it's an easy way to track things after they go 'below the fold'. 'Course, you do have to remember how many comments there were the last time you were here, in order to see if there are any new ones.

Rusty, any chance we could get some data added to the K5 Kookie, to track deltas in comment numbers in hotlisted stories between visits? Wouldn't do too much for people who read K5 at home and work, but might be helpful for some.

john,
killing time before Wednesday night happy hour...

[ Parent ]

Re: Sorta OT:The Hotlist Function of K5 (4.00 / 1) (#42)
by Paul Dunne on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 05:17:04 PM EST

What would be nice is a little box on the front page, listing the stories, that aren't on the front page anymore, with new comments, and maybe the number of comments. Or failing that, your Hotlist could notify you when new comments have been added. I think, since Kuro5hin is *not* a news site per se, we need to try to keep discussions going longer.
http://dunne.home.dhs.org/
[ Parent ]
Re: Sorta OT:The Hotlist Function of K5 (none / 0) (#45)
by Arkady on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 05:35:31 PM EST

Speaking as someone who turned on cookies only long enough to capture the K5 cookie and then immediately turned them off again (and who actually does look at his cookie file every day because my browser has bugs in its cookie management), I'd like to ask that this _not_ go in the cookie. I've only logged in twice since January, and I've been using the same cookie for about a month.

The cookie is, after all, just an index into the user's data in the K5 database. Anything like this could just as easily go into the user's record there.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
Re: Sorta OT:The Hotlist Function of K5 (none / 0) (#56)
by genehack on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 08:30:20 AM EST

The cookie is, after all, just an index into the user's data in the K5 database. Anything like this could just as easily go into the user's record there.

You are right, of course. I think I was thinking that having the info in the cookie would load the database less, but I'm probably wrong. It would still be a nice feature, regardless of how it's actually implemented.

john,
wondering why Friday ah damn^W^W^WThursday feels like Monday.

[ Parent ]

Re: Sorta OT:The Hotlist Function of K5 (4.00 / 1) (#44)
by Tr3534 on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 05:33:49 PM EST

My solution of choice is the have articles ranked in order of recent responces so that popular articles stay on the front page until the discussion dies. Only problem is I can't program so my options are to comment, beg or kidnap a programmer.

Better idea: put that it in a side box, so newer discussions can still get noticed on the front page. You people are really trying to get me to start hacking on Scoop, aren't you?
Sigmentation Fault: Post Dumped.
[ Parent ]
Re: Sorta OT:The Hotlist Function of K5 (5.00 / 1) (#51)
by ramses0 on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 01:23:43 AM EST

Once again, I'll give my site-wide hotlist suggestion... add a single field to the story table, called "times_hotlisted"

Every time a user hotlists a story, increment that number.

The top stories with the most hotlistings get shown in a box on the side, right below your hotlisted stories.

Bam. Public opinion, in 10 lines of well-placed code ;^)=

I even looked into implementing this feature so I could mail rusty the diff's, but that would require learning perl and installing scoop, and i don't have that much free time ;^)=

--Robert
[ rate all comments , for great justice | sell.com ]
[ Parent ]

What does Kuro5hin have going for it? (3.70 / 3) (#26)
by Alhazred on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 01:48:23 PM EST

IMHO the LOW volume of stories here is a blessing really. I'm all for a bit more, but not a HUGE flood. The problem becomes one of quality of discussion, as others have indicated. If stories only stay up for 1 day then there tends to be only superficial discussion, and it becomes a news site only.

Heck I don't even look at the comments on /. anymore. Most of them are idiotic, and with 3000 moronic comments on a story why bother? Knowledgeable people are both drowned out AND have no time to post before the thing drops off. /. is OK as a general news site at this point, but not as a web log. I would rather see Kuro5hin stay as it is now than go that way.

:o)
That is not dead which may eternal lie And with strange aeons death itself may die.
perhaps hereustic voting analysis? (4.60 / 5) (#31)
by Anonymous 242 on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 02:00:12 PM EST

It seems to me that the (don't care) vote and the posting of topical comments really ought to affect whether a story is displayed on the front page or not. If a story is generated a deeply threaded discussion, especially if it one where many of the comments are being moderated to some point level, it would seem on the surface to be meeting the goal of k5 to be a discussion board.

Some ideas:
1 Along with a point threshold, that determines whether a story gets posted or canned, determine a number of votes threshold. So that if a story gets 200 votes and 100 people don't care and 55 people like the story and 45 people don't, it gets canned because most people don't care.
2 As others have mentioned, getting topical comments posted ought to be some sort of defacto vote for a story, and having nested, highly rated discussion threads ought to be able to pull a story onto the front page.
3 A story with no posted topical comments ought to have a higher threshold to make the front page, and not quite as low threshold to get canned.

Complaints aside, I am quite impressed with k5. Both the participants in the discussions and Rusty have demonstrated to me a maturity and intelligence that is a bit lacking on most of the web.

Long Live Kuro5hin!

ps. as a side topic, I wonder if Rusty likes Sisters of Mercy. hey now. hey now. now. Sing this .....

Stories for their own sake are deprecated - don't (3.50 / 2) (#32)
by End on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 02:03:24 PM EST

First of all, what is up with your formatting? You should have placed only a single good paragraph in the intro section and stuck the rest of the story in the extended section. That is why we have an extended section: so we don't have to see your entire article on the front page.

Anyhow, Like most everyone else here, I think k5's content rate is just perfect, with quality of stories and write-ups being favored over quantity. A two-sentence story that consists of a single link and an obligatory "what do you guys think" is of no use here. We can find that stuff on our own, or on a myriad of other weblogs. Good articles and discriminating voters are what makes this site great.

There is no reason for us to post more stories merely for their own sake, or in order to draw in the masses. Surely you can see the advantages of having a smaller community. I know it won't last forever, but at least we can try and get people out of the slashdot mentality as they come in. And when they do come, it will not be because we post at least three stories a day.

-JD

Read the mission statement (5.00 / 6) (#33)
by Knile on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 02:05:02 PM EST

Rusty intends Kuro5hin to be discussion-based more than news-based, so maybe it's a <u>good</u> thing that it's "pure" and "light" for now, in terms of stories.

One request I have (3.50 / 2) (#52)
by PresJPolk on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 03:33:20 AM EST

stop voting things down because of anything involving slashdot!

Don't make kuro5hin a slashdot annex.

Sorta OT: With regard to the hotlist function (2.00 / 2) (#59)
by Paul Crowley on Fri Jun 30, 2000 at 11:29:45 AM EST

OK, this story has now disappeared off the main page. Did anyone put it in their Hotlist? Does anyone use the Hotlist to track when new responses arrive, and if so, do they want to stand up and make themselves known?

I'd be curious to know if there's ever any point in posting to stories once they've disappeared of the main page, and that seems to be what the Hotlist feature is for, so I'm wondering who uses it. If you're there, give us a followup!

cheers,
--
Paul Crowley aka ciphergoth. Crypto and sex politics. Diary.
Re: Sorta OT: With regard to the hotlist function (none / 0) (#60)
by cesarb on Mon Jul 03, 2000 at 07:52:59 PM EST

Well, there is a bit of a point... But I think we need:

1. A red number (like the (n new) from the moderation link) telling us how many new comments since last time we loaded the full story (not just a leaf comment, sometimes we can get to the leafs without loading the full page).
2. A global hotlist (so that stories which are very hotlisted would get a life of their own)
3. The ability to allow people to look at our hotlists (maybe obscuring the hotlisterīs id unless he checks a preference box).

I think this deserves a queue discussion... Somebody should post this proposal to it.

[ Parent ]
I like these ideas. (none / 0) (#63)
by Paul Crowley on Mon Jul 10, 2000 at 08:05:02 AM EST

How about this: rather than a global hotlist, make an indicator that shows how many people have hotlisted that story, which you can see alongside the counter of how many comments it has. This would encourage hotlisting in two ways: you do it because it'll bump up the counter and people will see, and also because you see that other people have done so and so it'll be worth the effort.

Another goodie would be a list of "Older Stories" ranked by posting activity in the last, say, week, to show which ones are getting active discussion.

The problem with "new" indicators is that they break the assumption that GET operations should be idempotent - that if you do the same thing twice in a row, you should get the same response as if you only do it once. This makes it fundamentally impossible to overcome reliability problems. I tend to feel that a "Top ten most recent X" indicator usually does the same job more safely.

On Point 2, I think it would be simpler to just have a simple "publish hotlist yes/no" choice, rather than offering an anonymous option, since it's hard to see how you'd choose which anonymous hotlists to look at!
--
Paul Crowley aka ciphergoth. Crypto and sex politics. Diary.
[ Parent ]
Re: I like these ideas. (none / 0) (#64)
by cesarb on Mon Jul 10, 2000 at 10:31:41 AM EST

OK, how about treating it like the queue (i.e. N unrated comments) then?

Agreed, making personal hotlists anonymous is very hard. A global hotlist made by concatenating all hotlists and sorting by times hotlisted would be great though.

Making people hotlist just to up some counter is evil. The hotlist is show on every page. Itīs meant to be that way.

[ Parent ]
Re: I like these ideas. (3.00 / 1) (#65)
by Paul Crowley on Wed Jul 12, 2000 at 08:20:04 AM EST

Don't think I get your ooint about "just to up some counter" - you let people know you're going to a party partly to encourage others to go, but them going only does you good if you go too. So you don't hotlist any more stories than you would have done otherwise, it's just that you get an extra benefit from having done so that the stories you've hotlisted are that bit more likely to stay live.

PS: what's your email address? Mine isn't spam-protected, send me some email!

cheers,
--
Paul Crowley aka ciphergoth. Crypto and sex politics. Diary.
[ Parent ]
Re: Sorta OT: With regard to the hotlist function (1.00 / 1) (#61)
by kraant on Wed Jul 05, 2000 at 09:12:26 PM EST

Yeap I been keeping track of this... :)
--
"kraant, open source guru" -- tumeric
Never In Our Names...
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorta OT: With regard to the hotlist function (none / 0) (#62)
by cesarb on Wed Jul 05, 2000 at 10:07:31 PM EST

Hm this is turning into sid=hotlist...

[ Parent ]
More stories need to make it to the front page | 65 comments (65 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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