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The New Anti-Americanism

By wiredog in Culture
Wed Jan 10, 2001 at 02:38:10 PM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)

Is there a "new" anti-americanism? Some recent items in the Washington Post claim and indicate so. Your thoughts?

Last sunday we had commentary in the Washington Post, by Martin Kettle, Washington bureau chief for Britain's Guardian newspaper.

"The new anti-Americanism is less focused on external acts of the American state; it is more likely to be triggered by internal things such as the American love affair with the automobile, the cult of the gun or the uncritical assumption that American is always best. In some respects, today's critics are taking issue with the American way of life itself."

Today (tuesday) in a live online discussion forum with Mr. Kettle I saw the following:
Herndon,VA: Why should the average American care that the average French citizen thinks that we are immoral, irresponsible and without culture?
Martin Kettle: For the same reason that it would probably have been sensible for the average Briton to have known more about how the rest of the world viewed the British when there was an British Empire."

Finally, some interesting, and unintended, support for this argument by Warren Brown, the Auto columnist for the Post, in a column on the auto show

"The prophecy here is that, at some point, U.S. consumers and automotive journalists will discover that the United States isn't the world. This country might be willing to go on consuming oil as if it is an inexhaustible resource, but the rest of the world isn't playing that game.
Those suppliers, most of whom requested anonymity for fear of offending the car companies, say they are being forced into a split-market strategy. They are creating components for larger, generally less fuel-efficient North American vehicles while trying to develop components for global markets that cannot afford, will not buy, and have neither the infrastructure nor the natural resources to support the kind of zoom-zoom metal on display here at the North American International Auto Show"

After reading the articles referenced above I thought for a bit, and recalled some of the comments I've seen here, and on The Other Site. Many of which seem to support the argument that there is. So, is there a new anti-americanism? Or just the old one? And why?


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The New Anti-Americanism | 33 comments (28 topical, 5 editorial, 2 hidden)
It's pro-environment! (2.66 / 6) (#6)
by recursive on Wed Jan 10, 2001 at 03:29:17 PM EST

I find the term anti-americanism very anti-american by itself. After living in the US for 9 month now I have expected terms like pro-environment or pro-mobility. Maybe I am just brainwashed by all this PC speak.

-- My other car is a cdr.

anti- (3.00 / 6) (#7)
by Delirium on Wed Jan 10, 2001 at 04:13:47 PM EST

No, you see the other guy is always "anti-" while your side is always "pro-." Those who oppose abortion call themselves "pro-life," while those who support it call the same people "anti-choice." It's all spin in various directions.

In this case the evil foreigners who want to murder Americans are "anti-American." They probably describe themselves as "pro-" something instead ("pro-Russian" or whatever nationality they may be).

FWIW I find a lot of the anti-Americanism (there I go again, using that word) to be extremely hypocritical. Many countries are happy to take billions of dollars of American money, but then claim to hate the United States. Fine, hate us, but then reject our checks.

[ Parent ]

Oh, geez. (4.66 / 15) (#11)
by ghjm on Wed Jan 10, 2001 at 06:17:24 PM EST

Your posting is a great example of exactly the sort of overwrought, paranoid, ill-educated worthless nonsense that gives rise to the type of "anti-Americanism" the article refers to in the first place.

First of all, if you want your arguments to benefit from America's largesse, you better go vote in some congressmen who will start putting out. I hope you realize that America has one of the lowest-funded foreign aid programs in the developed world.

Then there's the question of what other countries you think you're talking about. People in developing nations don't hate America, they hate "the West" and for the most part they lump it all together - they only differentiate between, say, America and Germany to the extent that RMS differentiates between, say, Microsoft and Oracle. And the idea that there are any nations where a large percentage of people "want to murder Americans" is pure fantasy.

Within the G8, the billions of dollars with which you're trying to purchase the moral high ground just don't exist. Europe, for example, isn't taking very many American checks. According to <a href=http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=466589>The Economist, exports to America from the Euro region only account for 2-3% of its GDP. Japan is similarly independent. And we certainly aren't giving them foreign aid. So where are these billions of dollars?

But suppose you were able to find an example of a nation where the situation you describe actually exists: This hypothetical nation is taking billions of dollars of American hand-outs, yet hates America. You're saying that this would be hypocritical. I have to ask why. You seem to be implying that the act of giving money carries a moral requirement for the recipient to like the giver. This is wildly off base, most notably because it ignores any broader context. Suppose that hand-in-hand with giving out money, America also conducts foreign policy that has the effect of preventing the nation in question from becoming economically self-sufficient. They can take America's money or starve, so they take America's money; but even if your jailer gives you bread and water each day, you still hate your jailer.

Even that doesn't cover all of what's wrong with this posting. Another major problem is that the particular moral characteristics and requirements you're applying to a nation can only correctly be applied to an individual. If an individual professes a moral code but does not adhere to it, we call that hypocrisy. If a nation contains two individuals, one of whom professes a moral code but the other of whom does not adhere to it, we call that freedom. If a nation's government accepts American billions, yet many individuals within that nation hate America, how is that hypocrisy? Or are you saying an individual should be required to follow the moral precepts laid down by the currently ruling political party? If so, how well did you accomplish this during the recent Democratic presidential administration?

I have more to say, but I don't know if anyone wants to hear it.


[ Parent ]

Hmm (3.00 / 1) (#18)
by ghjm on Thu Jan 11, 2001 at 11:40:40 AM EST

On reflection, me=yhbt probably.

[ Parent ]
wow! (none / 0) (#29)
by mazzy on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 02:25:46 AM EST

this is the most intelligent, well thought out, piece i've read in ages well done that man
------------------------------------ http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~nero ------------------------------------
[ Parent ]
Precisely (4.00 / 1) (#26)
by iainl on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 06:30:02 AM EST

This whole anti-big cars thing isn't 'we hate those loud Americans', its 'we are facing huge taxes on our fuel in an attempt to reduce our emissions and therefore global warming, but the worlds biggest offender by far is doing all it can to sabotage any agreement on this'.

The American attitude demonstrated in some of the comments here of 'why should we listen to way you puny Europe people say' is bound to rile when our governments and scientists tell us the worlds going to hell in a handbasket, so we need to cut back emissions to compensate for you.

[ Parent ]
What I think it's about (4.96 / 26) (#9)
by ghjm on Wed Jan 10, 2001 at 04:33:17 PM EST

I'm a Canadian living in the United States, and I've recently spent some time traveling around the world (in one case literally - departing via Los Angeles and returning via New York). What I find interesting is that there _is_ actually a world. One of them. It has a pretty good sense of itself, and you basically feel like you're a part of it whether you're in China or Australia or Scotland or Canada or Germany. Everyone has their own slant on things, of course, and their own domestic news that isn't all that interesting to anyone else, but the entire developed world generally reports the news of the entire developed world.

When I come home to America, it's like I'm stepping into a box. All the ongoing stories, interesting happenings, etc. stop being connected to any daily life. It's all submerged in the sense of preeminence of American domestic trivia. It's not just the reporting; actually, the reporting isn't all that bad. It's the society. If the two big news stories of the day are (a) which votes got counted how, and (b) who's shooting who in Palestine, it's next to impossible to find a water cooler conversation about anything other than (a). And even if you do get a conversation started about the Palestinians, most people haven't the slightest clue what they're talking about. If you find some who do, it's hard to hold a conversation with them because you tend to get swamped by the opinionated idiots.

But America has always been isolationist. America, like China, maintains an isolated culture through the use of trading buffer zones. If you look at voting splits, it usually breaks down to the liberal coasts against the religious conservatives in the center. California (or parts of it) and the Eastern Seaboard are quite cosmopolitan, enlightened, and aware of the outside world - just like Hong Kong and Singapore. The Bible Belt is almost totally isolated from any outside influences - just like mainland China (perhaps excluding Beijing).

What's new and different today in America, and perhaps not too far away in China, is that communications and trade have increased to the point that ordinary citizens of other nations can now see into the center. Not the exportable, public-relations version of it, but the actual opinions and attitudes of the real people. Americans, even very enlightened ones, have grown up with this vocal minority constantly screaming in their ear; so, of necessity, they have learned to tune it out. People in most other parts of the world (the notable exception is, of course, poor old Canada) have not had this experience. When the guy from Arkansas posts, in all apparent sincerity, that he believes the right answer to the question of Palestinian refugees is to nuke 'em, Americans automatically understand that this person has no concept that he's talking about human beings; that this has more to do with Saturday morning cartoons than any real comprehension of what a nuclear attack would be like. Someone reading the post from Japan, who grew up with (say) a grandfather who tells stories of losing many friends to radiation sickness outside Nagasaki and recently died of cancer, is not likely to be nearly so forgiving. To most of the world, viewing the unvarnished culture of the American interior is quite upsetting.

So, is it "anti-American" to make noise about this? I really don't think so. I think a heart-felt desire to educate Americans and bring them up to the standards the rest of the world operates by is actually quite strongly pro-American. You don't discipline your children because you're "anti-children," you do it because you care about them and it's what they need. The fact is, middle America today is an embarrassing anachronism, and the sooner it can be provided with the a decent liberal arts education and an awareness of the world outside its borders, the better off America will be.


Anti-isms: Are they real? (5.00 / 1) (#28)
by bilbo on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 09:56:10 PM EST

Thanks for the education. I know you don't mean that in a mean way.

I never cease to amaze at the continuing generalizations about the US and Europe that get bandied about. Like yourself I have traveled fairly extensively in Europe, Asia, South and Central America. I have been privileged enough to have been befriended by some of the most generous, well meaning and intelligent people the world has to offer. I have been fortunate to find them in just about every place that I have ever traveled. I have met Philippine house keepers in Hong Kong, Software Entrepreneurs in France, a Ferry Captain from Sydney and taught Japanese Air force Captains English in Japan and drank beer with gay Clothing store clerks in Kyoto. I've been swindled by salesmen in India and the US and dickered with Prostitutes in Bangkok just to name a few. I will travel to Africa at the end of this year. I have traveled to most of the US both East and West and parts in between.

I don't mean to sound like a braggart or make my travels sound more import or better than yours or anyone else's. I only wish to make the case that I may be able to speak somewhat authoritatively about cultural and national differences. That said I will proceed.

There really isn't that much that is different. The US has not cornered the market on Gun Toting Greedy Stupid People (GTGSP). GTGSP's are in every country of the World and are found in every religion. They are not bound by National boundaries, culture or gender. Although you could argue that males commit the vast majority of violent acts in the world.

Believe it or not they even exist in Europe. The recurrent ethnic cleansings in the Balkans are a perfect example. But I suppose since they are not part of the "European Union" they really don't count as "Europeans". Similarly if the South would have successfully succeeded from the US during the Civil War we would not be saddled with the Religious Right meme. But we are saddled with it because of an arbitrary line called the US border which happens to include a section of the country where the Religious Right are prevalent. So it goes.

The US has it's own sad history of racial, religious and ethnic cleansings but at the moment those elements of our society are mostly suppressed to the point where we are not uncovering mass graves containing thousands of people recently murdered. Would it be appropriate for me to say that we need to educate the "Europeans" that ethnic cleansing is indeed wrong. Or should we educate the "French Europeans" that they shouldn't blow up Green Peace ships that protest their nuclear weapons testing because it is wrong. Educate the "Irish Europeans" that it isn't ok for Protestants and Catholics to kill each other just because they have been doing it so long. Which by the way is one of the reasons so very many "Europeans" emigrated to the US in the first place and continue to do so today. Educate the "German Europeans" that killing emigrants is wrong. Remind "Swiss Europeans" that providing safe havens for Dictators booty is wrong even when it is profitable. Educate "Austrian Europeans" that emigrants are a beneficial thing. Educate "Italian Europeans" that revenge killings are not civilized. I think I've made my point. Maybe if America's spent more time in cafes smoking, drinking espresso and wearing little caps with no brims we would be considered a little more hip.

There is still plenty need for education all around. The lines the borders they are all arbitrary fictions we use but are becoming increasingly meaningless. There is no doubt the US welds most of the power in the world today. Quite often it is abused or misguided but probably no more so than any other Nation that has found it self in a similar position in the past. This will probably change in the future. It always does.

Actually I like to think of myself as a World Citizen as do many "Europeans". These Anti-ism on either side of the pond are useless, unproductive and validate our misconceptions about each other. The human genome contains less than %1 differences between the so called human races. I think you find the our similarities are much greater than our differences.

[ Parent ]

That's why it's a shock (4.00 / 1) (#30)
by itsbruce on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 07:18:24 PM EST

When I come home to America, it's like I'm stepping into a box.

I think that's why the existence of anti-Americanism comes as a shock to some Americans. It's a confrontation with a world-view they didn't know existed. When you live in a smaller country it's harder to be unaware that other people hate you. The British are fairly arrogant but we simply can't pretend we don't know what many of our neighbours think of us. They live too close. In any typical half hour news bulletin, maybe 10 minutes will be international news. I forget the corresponding statistic for the typical US news program but it's a lot smaller.

Interestingly, most Brits are shocked when they encounter anti-British sentiments from Americans. There's this myth about a "Special Relationship", one that's useful for UK and US politicians, a myth that many Brits use to justify their xenophobia towards our European neighbours. But the truth is that, while there is some Anglophile sentiment on the urban east and west coast, much of Middle America sees us as a funny-talking, snotty-nosed bunch, of dubious sexuality, and they're damn glad they kicked our asses in 1776.

None of this is new, though. Some journalist just had a slow week and decided to rediscover it all.


It is impolite to tell a man who is carrying you on his shoulders that his head smells.
[ Parent ]
Another Story (4.20 / 10) (#12)
by Dacta on Thu Jan 11, 2001 at 06:42:44 AM EST

Here (in Australia) a couple of years ago there was a massacer by a mental patient with a coupel of Automatic weapon. 30 people were killed, which is by far the largest mass murder in Australian history, and is, I believe the largest number of people killed by firearms on Australian soil at one time in the last 75 years (with the possible exception of an attempted escape by Japanese prisoners of war during WW2).

In the aftermarth, there was a large political push to introduce tighter gun controls.

During the community debate that followed, the US was a significant liability to those who were opposed to tighter gun control - especially when spokesmen from the NRA started talking about how "an unarmed citizen is a subject" and "you can't have freedom without having the power to defend it".

Perhaps in America those ideas provoke debate. In Australia, they were embarrassing to organisations like the sporting shooters organisation, who ended up having to argue against what the NRA had said, supposdly in support of them.

(In the end, all automatic weapons were banned outright, and all pump action shot guns were also banned.)

It's attitude's like that which the rest of the world gets annoyed at. Many people in the US seem unable to look at their views from outside, critical eyes. It's unfortunate, because I'm sure the NRA had some useful arguement - but in Australian eyes they looked like raving lunitics. They made people say "Yes, let's ban guns. We don't want people like that to ever have any influence over here.".

anti-americanism (3.62 / 8) (#14)
by benhmm on Thu Jan 11, 2001 at 09:51:39 AM EST

I've always thought it interesting that the US is the only country in the "free world" that has a concept of counter-revoluntionaries.

The whole concept of someone of being Anti-American is a good example of the reason people would be so in the first place. I mean, the idea of of being an Anti-Brit, or an Anti-Belgian is just laughable.

It's part of the whole American thing that gives the rest of the world the complete willies: being able to be classed as Anti-American, the daily enforced swearing alligence to a flag, continual mass singing of the national song, an electoral system based on who has the most cash, the cult of the gun, the celebration of stupidity, lack of a global perspective toward anything whatsoever etc etc etc

These are all things that, in another country, would be roundedly condemned by the American public themselves.

Not so muchm really (3.50 / 2) (#17)
by Karmakaze on Thu Jan 11, 2001 at 11:25:17 AM EST

I've always thought it interesting that the US is the only country in the "free world" that has a concept of counter-revoluntionaries.

I don't follow. That's not sarcasm or facetiousness; I really don't understand what you mean by counter-revolutionaries in the context of your post.

The whole concept of someone of being Anti-American is a good example of the reason people would be so in the first place. I mean, the idea of of being an Anti-Brit, or an Anti-Belgian is just laughable.

You've never encountered anyone who was Anti-Brit? Really? (I'll admit to never meeting anyone who rabidly hates the Belgians, though.) And, even so, America is hardly the only "free world" country with detractors. View the Anti-French sentiments that float around.

It's part of the whole American thing that gives the rest of the world the complete willies: being able to be classed as Anti-American,
the daily enforced swearing alligence to a flag

In defense of my country, the daily pledge of allegiance only takes place in the public schools, and is not technically mandatory. I don't think I've said the pledge since I graduated high school.

continual mass singing of the national song

Actually, it's kind of embarrassing. We very rarely sing our national anthem. We "stand for" it, when it is played at sporting events and such, but most of us don't even know all the words. The thing is practically unsingable (go ahead, try sometime). In public school, we actually sang something else (when we sang at all). I'm not sure where you got the idea that we play our national anthem particularly more often than other nations.

an electoral system based on who has the most cash, the cult of the gun, the celebration of stupidity, lack of a global perspective toward anything whatsoever etc etc etc
These are all things that, in another country, would be roundedly condemned by the American public themselves.

Believe me, we're not all nuts about it in our own country.

[ Parent ]
Shame on you! (1.80 / 5) (#19)
by flash91 on Thu Jan 11, 2001 at 11:50:29 AM EST

There's nothing wrong with wanting to preserve your own culture, but with increased communications you have to expect overlap in values. Isolation from these values is going to be tough to achieve. What's really sad is how many europeans and japanese live in a sterotype world of what US people are like. I've heard about how ignorant we are, how isolationist, "cult of the gun"/cowboy culture etc. We have been the deciding factor in world wars people. We've also given loads of cash to help rebuild nations we've beaten, and nations that were our allies. Shame on you for your ingratitude. The "cowboy culture" scares the willies out of you people, but I can't see anything wrong with helping out your neighbor and working hard for a living. Sure, we have ignorant and opinionated people. You do too. Hard to have a culture without them. Showing ingratitude, wanting to live in your own little duckpond, and being nationalist bigots is anti-american. And the nature of americanism is that you are welcome to it. Just be nice next time you need someone to save your bacon.

Knee-jerk? (none / 0) (#27)
by exotherm on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:19:33 PM EST

We have been the deciding factor in world wars people.

In both WWI and WWII, we came in towards the end of both wars. I'm not too sure why but I suspect it's to exhaust the resources of participating countries before we acted. 'Course, I could be very wrong.

We've also given loads of cash to help rebuild nations we've beaten, and nations that were our allies.

Only if you count WWII. Funny, I don't remember our guv'mint giving money to North Korea, Granada(sp?), Vietnam, etc.

And the nature of americanism is that you are welcome to it.

Really? Then why do I recall our guv'mint using political and economic muscle to "pursuade" "uncivilized" countries to recognize "freedoms" such as those listed in our Constitution in their countries?
Those who can are driven mad by those who can't.
[ Parent ]

Oh, snore (1.71 / 7) (#22)
by jet_silver on Thu Jan 11, 2001 at 03:53:05 PM EST

Pity sneeze guards like Mr. Kettle. His thesis (nowhere clearer than in the ICC passage) is "The Americans won't play by our rules and they won't come to our parties, therefore they think they're too cool...." Apart from the high-school-clique feeling Mr. Kettle inspires, it's not that we think we're that cool....

It's that we don't need you, Mr. Kettle, and we know it. If Europe were slagged into the Stone Age tomorrow we would lose an important tourist destination and the world's leading source of gloomy pronouncements, but answer honestly: what else does Europe lead the world in, and for what reason? Cars? Perhaps, but the cars with which it leads pander to the American love affair with cars, ne? Airplanes? Nope. Still Boeing. Semiconductors? I can name StrongARM as a European product, what other tricks have you got? Music? Perhaps, but Anton Webern has been dead for quite a while.

The fact we won't come to the ICC party or participate in the Hague is rational, because it questions the assumptions made that underlie these efforts. The bases for these little gatherings are European concerns, not worldwide concerns. Example: many Africans are still trying to get enough to eat, please remember, they have no interest in fossil fuel consumption because they're still burning twigs and deadfalls. Away goes the 'global concern' and in its place drifts the eminence grise of pan-Europeanism, which we all know is cool, just look at the stability of the Euro.

So what about this European disdain with the American way of life? On what is it based? A feeling that things didn't used to be this way, so they still shouldn't be? I just can't get worked up over the disdain of a crowd of shabby, sad people who immigrate to the US by the thousands for a better life.

Americans like big, fast cars, guns and sex. If those things don't appeal to you, stay in Europe. Please. You can have a really good time taking things more seriously there. True, you are not likely to get murdered in Europe. You -are- likely to get bored to death there.
"What they really fear is machine-gunning politicians becoming a popular sport, like skate-boarding." -Nicolas Freeling

European industry...worth ignoring? (4.33 / 3) (#23)
by Spinoza on Thu Jan 11, 2001 at 04:52:55 PM EST

Finland rules the mobile phones industry with an iron fist.

The German auto industry produces most of the world's really good cars, at BMW, Mercedes and even VW.

Fiat, from Italy is the world's largest auto company, and owns several others, including Ferrari and Maserati.

The German electronics industry is not to be sniffed at. Siemens make most of the chips used in automotive systems.

As for big, fast cars, guns and sex, let's see. The McLaren F1 is the fastest road car in the world, and it's made in...ah, Europe! The only decent roads you'll find to drive it on legally are in Germany, (but the autobahn isn't really all it's cracked up to be. Italy would probably be more fun.) European women are generally known to be sexier and more liberated than their US counterparts. Guns you'd have to stay in the US for, I guess.

You, sir, are a clear example of the reason for the European disdain for the American way of life.

[ Parent ]

thank you (3.00 / 2) (#25)
by automaton on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 06:15:08 AM EST

with your post you just proved the statement true...

[ Parent ]
ICC (3.00 / 1) (#32)
by mircrypt on Mon Jan 15, 2001 at 12:49:28 AM EST

You might want to check the headlines sometime and refresh your memory on our status vis a vis the ICC. Clinton signed on to it. That the Senate will ratify it is doubtful, but I see a faint glimmer of what may be the reason behind that. Apparently, with the prevailing view of persons such as yourself that justice and accountability before the law are not American concerns, what hope can an international criminal court have with the "enlightened" American public?

As for big, fast cars...ever heard of the BMW 800 series?....guns...America is not the only place that makes nice toys to kill your neighbors with...and sex??? Obviously you like your sex the way most clueless insipid and offensive Americans do...easy and with no commitments or intellectual involvement...at least I gather that much from the illogic of your comment.

Cheers mate. I'm an American and it's people like you that make me glad I spent 14 years outside of the US.
"Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you". - Aldus Huxley -
[ Parent ]

It's about sustainabilty... (4.00 / 1) (#33)
by Mr Tom on Tue Jan 16, 2001 at 12:37:02 PM EST

> The bases for these little gatherings are European
> concerns, not worldwide concerns.

So wrong. The American way of life is simply unsustainable in the long term. (ie, longer than the lifetime of one person, which seems to be about as far as most Americans are prepared to view the future) This is not even remotely under question: the American economy, like the British empire, has grown fat on the backs of the poor (Both domestically, and internationally).

The interest shown by the US in, for example, the Rio Enviroment summit was negligible, and the commitment to any of the declarations set down has yet to manifest itself.

Furthermore, as long as the "American way" is seen as something to aspire to, developing countries will crave for the lifestyle it affords. Can you imagine the resource implications for, say, China supporting a US-style life for her inhabitants? As soon as developing nations realise that there is no way that they will be able to live like the Americans, there will be some interesting conflicts that will necessitate a downturn in the lifestle of Americans.

For one, I predict enormous hikes in the price of coffee. :-) That'll make youse all think! :-)

-- Mr_Tom<at>gmx.co.uk

I am a consultant. My job is to make your job redundant.
[ Parent ]

It's just cos of the leaders (2.50 / 4) (#24)
by daani on Thu Jan 11, 2001 at 09:17:15 PM EST

Americans pick dumb leaders. So do most countries, but American leaders make more noise.

I remember reading once that "although a persons opinion may change, the strength of there conviction rarely does". American culture seems to produce (at least some) very opinionated people. American culture also seems to put these people in very prominent positions. And they do some fucking stupid things sometimes.

Thanks for the Drug war.


just a note (none / 0) (#31)
by mircrypt on Mon Jan 15, 2001 at 12:42:42 AM EST

I'm not sure if it was just a typo, but it's their, not there. Possessive, not indicative reference. Just fyi.
"Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you". - Aldus Huxley -
[ Parent ]
The New Anti-Americanism | 33 comments (28 topical, 5 editorial, 2 hidden)
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