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[P]
Film Festival for a new war

By anansi in Culture
Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 10:10:14 AM EST
Tags: Movies (all tags)
Movies

"It was like a movie" If the initial shocks of 9/11 were like Towering Inferno or Die Hard, now we are encouraged to think of this next phase as the epilogue to last summer's Pearl Harbor.

The drama playing out in airports, mailrooms, and legal centers right now makes me think of some much different films. These span the gamut from crisis of epistemology, to definitions of terrorism, to a disloyal military, to alternative dystopias, to...?


12 monkeys
1984
Pi
The Andromeda Strain
Arlington Road
Bob Roberts
Brazil
Capricorn One
Closet Land
Conspiracy Theory
The Conversation
Death and the maiden
Enemy of the State
The Fury
The Insider
Mullholland Falls
No Way Out
Outbreak
The Panama Deception
The Parallax View
The Postman
Power Play
The Puppet Masters
The Siege
Wag The Dog

What would you add to this list?

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Related Links
o 12 monkeys
o 1984
o Pi
o The Andromeda Strain
o Arlington Road
o Bob Roberts
o Brazil
o Capricorn One
o Closet Land
o Conspiracy Theory
o The Conversation
o Death and the maiden
o Enemy of the State
o The Fury
o The Insider
o Mullhollan d Falls
o No Way Out
o Outbreak
o The Panama Deception
o The Parallax View
o The Postman
o Power Play
o The Puppet Masters
o The Siege
o Wag The Dog
o Also by anansi


Display: Sort:
Film Festival for a new war | 78 comments (76 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)
Hey! You there in the ticket kiosk! (3.00 / 2) (#1)
by TheophileEscargot on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 05:22:37 AM EST

I want my money back!
----
Support the nascent Mad Open Science movement... when we talk about "hundreds of eyeballs," we really mean it. Lagged2Death
Film, cuz that's all they gots up there (4.50 / 6) (#2)
by duxup on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 06:00:00 AM EST

I often shiver when people feel the need to discuss current events and film. I suppose it's a harmless activity, yet I often get the feeling that they're comparing current events and film because their knowledge of history is so limited that the only resource of similar events that they are aware of is film.

Exactly. (3.40 / 5) (#11)
by Electric Angst on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 10:14:06 AM EST

It's a horrible situation, and we should rail against it. Just like the way some ancient Romans would complain about people referencing poetry when talking of contemporary and philosophical issues.
--
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster." - Nietzsche
[ Parent ]
Film (4.00 / 2) (#12)
by finial on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 10:30:02 AM EST

I don't mind comparing current events with a fictional film, especially if it's a good one. Compare Dr. Strangelove or Catch 22, with the current situation and you might be surprized at what you find. But when so-called historical movies are used for comparison, it gets creepy. And it seems that anything involving Mel Gibson is particularly suspect. Braveheart?!?! There were people portrayed in that movie that weren't even alive at the same time. The Patriot?!?! Puhleez. The last really good, reasonably accurate historical movie I can think of (off the top of my head) is Tora! Tora! Tora!



[ Parent ]
I agree (none / 0) (#34)
by duxup on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 05:25:56 PM EST

I think some movies like Dr. Strangelove or Catch 22 are applicable. Sadly though those movies are in the minority of most films, and the people who are familiar with and can talk intelligently about such movies, in my likely have a good historical education.

[ Parent ]
Catch-22, a movie? (ot) (none / 0) (#38)
by spcmanspiff on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 06:28:39 PM EST

*sigh*

I wish my favorite books would just stay books.

Sure, y'know, it's probably even a good movie. Maybe great. But it's not the Catch-22 I know and love. And to top it off, apparently the film (even though I had no idea it was made into a movie) is apparently dominant enough that people think of some movie when they hear the title rather than the novel.

*sigh* Life goes on, I suppose.


[ Parent ]
Book v. Movie (3.50 / 2) (#43)
by finial on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 08:16:57 PM EST

Almost all movies were books first. Some were plays (The Ritz), some were TV shows (Star Trek), some are movies right out of the box (The Matrix), but most were books. I remember Stephen King being interviewed about whether he was upset that the end of Carrie and The Shining were changed in the movies. He said no, he liked the ending of Carrie better in the movie than in his book, but what are you going to do? write 'suddenly a hand poked out of the ground' eww. The end of The Shining was better in the book but the CGI at the time wasn't good enough to create an animate topiary zoo, so they changed it to a maze.

Also in a movie, you are constrained by time. A three or four hundred page novel is tough to condense into a 100 minute movie. You have to leave things behind. Sometimes they take a great book and make an excellent movie (Fight Club) and sometimes they take a great book and just murder it (The Perfect Storm).

I don't think it's bad, necessarily, that they make movies from books. I don't think it's bad that they even change some of the story line or leave some plot lines out altogether. But they really need to do a good job. How many hatchet jobs have you seen done on Lord of the Rings? Ralph Bakshi may have been a decent animator, but, sorry, that thing reeked. I've got high hopes for Harry Potter. Of course, they daren't fail or there will be millions of hella pissed off little kids around!



[ Parent ]
Oh, I've got no issues with movie v. book.... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
by spcmanspiff on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 10:00:44 PM EST

It's Reading v. Watching that makes me feel more and more like a cranky old man whining about "Back in the day"... as 'Watching' seems to be coming out on top.

The Harry Potter thing especially makes me conflicted about it all -- because, god, how many little kids started enjoying reading because of those books? Will the movie make all that irrelevant? OTOH, I bet it'll be a pretty cool film and I'd love to see it. And maybe I'm wrong and the movie will make even more people want to read the books.

I guess I'm not sure what to think about it all, but it does make me fairly uncomfortable.

Making movies from books? Great -- after all, if directors were in charge of coming up with compelling stories we'd all be in trouble.

Replacing a tradition of reading books with one of watching movies? Ehhhh... I dunno. *squirm*


[ Parent ]
Potter & Empire (3.33 / 3) (#63)
by bobsquatch on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 08:05:55 PM EST

The Harry Potter thing especially makes me conflicted about it all -- because, god, how many little kids started enjoying reading because of those books? Will the movie make all that irrelevant? OTOH, I bet it'll be a pretty cool film and I'd love to see it. And maybe I'm wrong and the movie will make even more people want to read the books.
One strategy for getting kids to read instead of watch HP, at least in the near term: Remind them, as they come out of the theater, that the next 3 adventures are available RIGHT NOW, as books.

Or would they rather wait a couple of YEARS for the movie version?

I know what I would choose, in that situation; of course, I lapped up "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" in the late 70's, because I just couldn't wait for Empire Strikes Back.

[ Parent ]

Film is commentary (4.00 / 2) (#22)
by epepke on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 01:22:50 PM EST

Film is social commentary, probably the best medium for it that we have. The best history isn't social commentary, and the worst history is vapid and banal social commentary.

I might add computer games. I'm playing Deus Ex for the first time right now, and it's interesting now in a different way from how it would have been interesting on September 11.


The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.--Terry Pratchett


[ Parent ]
Commentary (4.50 / 2) (#33)
by duxup on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 05:20:42 PM EST

I've got no problem with someone's social commentary. However, when that seems to be some people's only source for information (perhaps because they find fact too banal), I think that is a problem.

[ Parent ]
The Boomer Bible (none / 0) (#54)
by epepke on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 11:47:09 AM EST

This reminds me of the Boomer Bible, which I'm rereading now. This is a neglected classic. I reprint Wille 15.1-21 here:

  1. Notice that none of this has anything to do with genocide or evil,
  2. Except that one of the greatest things about life,
  3. As you will learn, provided you can pay attention for a little while longer,
  4. Which I have doubts about,
  5. Is that there is always a good and virtuous reason for being opposed to doing what you don't want to do.
  6. In this case, you did not want to die in some faraway land,
  7. And so you discovered ideals.
  8. And where did these great ideals come from?
  9. Did they come from your encyclopedic knowledge of history, which you got from Clark Gable and John Wayne and Errol Flynn and Charlton Heston?
  10. Did they come from your vast knowledge of religion, which you got from John Huston and Jeffrey Hunter and Charlton Heston?
  11. Did they come from your deep knowledge of politics and government, which you got in twenty-two minutes a night from Walter Cronkite and Chet Huntley, unless you got it from the sports page?
  12. Did they come from your rich experience of culture, which you got from the Three Stooges and Lucille Ball and Superman and the Lone Ranger and Ed Sullivan?
  13. Did you get them from each other, through profound conversations that struck deep into the heart of things?
  14. Did they come from your intellectual awakening in college, where you learned how to smoke dope and screw like rabbits and cut class and read Cliff Notes and grow beards and give up bathing?
  15. Did they come from the counterculture, where you were exposed to such world class brain trusts as Timothy Leary and Abbie Hoffman?
  16. Did they come from Woodstock Nation, where you sat naked in the mud and got enlightened by the divinely inspired wisdom of Joan Baez and Arlo Guthrie and Crosby, Stills, & Nash?
  17. Or did they come from your parents, who taught you that the best way to get what you want is to ask for it,
  18. And keep asking for it until everyone's sick of hearing about it,
  19. And make up a bunch of inane reasons why you should get your way,
  20. And then demand your way,
  21. And then have a giant tantrum and hold your breath until you finally do get your way?

Heh heh heh.

But still, I don't think that there's a negative correlation between liking film and knowing history. I think the kind of person you are referring to is not someone who has film festivals, but rather someone who just watches movies. I like movies and films, but there's a difference. Not a hard and sharp difference, but a difference nonetheless. People who like films may be stupid, but they are seldom ignorant, relatively speaking.


The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.--Terry Pratchett


[ Parent ]
You're not a filmaker, are you? (3.33 / 3) (#32)
by anansi on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 04:42:43 PM EST

It used to be, there was a body of works called the canon, that every well educated person could be expected to have read. That, plus latin was the foundation of a classical education.

Sometime last century. the number of important works began to explode. Never mind new, important forms of musical expression. Does poetry have any place in the civic dialog? What about performance art?

In many ways, I think film is the only mode of expression dense enough to possibly carry a satisfying civic dialog any more. There's just too much signal out there.

My own knowlege of history begins to diminish sharply pre-WW2. I think I'm in good company there, and I'm not ashamed of my lack of a classical education. In that time, there have been a lot of relevent movies made, and I think the US has made enough criminal 'mistakes' in that time for people to understand what's going on in the present historical moment.

Don't call it Fascism. Use Musollini's term: "Corporatism"
[ Parent ]

Interesting... (none / 0) (#42)
by Whyaduck on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 07:23:39 PM EST

There's just too much signal out there
Well, stick to what Oprah reccomends and you'll be fine ;) Granted, there's alot out there, but film's barrier to entry would seem to be much higher (in general...very few indie or foreign films are screened in most communities in the U.S.) than other forms like fiction and music. Filmaking's mostly big business and not particularly diverse (speaking relatively), and I would guess that alot of potentially great work is filtered out by Hollywood (not that big publishing houses don't do the same to some extent). I mean, if Cassavetes hadn't paid his own way I doubt any of his films would have gotten made.
I think film is the only mode of expression dense enough to possibly carry a satisfying civic dialog any more.
Dense in what way? I'm not trying to challenge you, but rather to understand your statement.


Oh Lydia, oh Lydia, say, have you met Lydia?
Lydia The Tattooed Lady.
She has eyes that folks adore so,
and a torso even more so.

[ Parent ]
The Insider is a good example (4.00 / 1) (#49)
by anansi on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 02:36:29 AM EST

Originally, The Insider began as a TV news story that got spiked because of a financial conflict of interest between a tobacco company and CBS. 60 Minutes strung this guy along, got him to stick his neck out, and left him out to dry when they decided not to air the story. Yet somehow the original story, plus CBS's corruption, came out in the light when this movie was made.

Granted, not every important news story is going to make it to a big budget motion picture. But after seeing Matwan, Silkwood and The Panama Deception, I can generalize some important ideas. That such movies get made at all is proof that Senator McCarthy's attempts to "clean up" Hollywood has so far failed. (I really got this feeling after seeing The People vs Larry Flint.)

As for the high cost of entry into the field, certainly not everyone can direct a big budget movie who would like to. Yet when I go to a video store, about half the titles I see for rent never made it to the big screen, they were all direct-to-video. Public Access is cheaper still, if you don't mind the tiny audience. (If you're able to target your publicity at all, this becomes much less of a problem. Lots of public access producers have their own web sites and web rings.

Finally, people only have so much time to read stuff on a computer screen or in a book, no matter how well educated they are or how good that material is. By referencing films, it's possible to call forth an entire worldview with just a few words. (When I say, "Rocky Horror", chances are you've seen it, and you'll probably get whatever inference I'm trying to make, whetehr or not you agree with it.) That's what I mean by density.

I'm mostly sort of thinking aloud here, so I don't pretend to know exactly what I'm talking about.

Don't call it Fascism. Use Musollini's term: "Corporatism"
[ Parent ]

Uh? (1.33 / 3) (#39)
by DeadBaby on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 06:49:24 PM EST

Thanks for the most ignorant comment I've ever read on K5.
"Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity -- in all this vastness -- there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. It is up to us." - Carl Sagan
[ Parent ]
Micheal Collins (4.20 / 5) (#3)
by bil on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 06:05:30 AM EST

Micheal Collins.

Ireland, 1916. His dreams inspired hope. His words inspired passion. His courage forged a nation's destiny.
Not only a very watchable film but also an example of how America can regard terrorists as heroes, and that the only real line between terrorist and freedom fighter is whether they are on your side.

Favourite quote (Micheal Collins on hearing of a British Police Officer gunned down in the street) :-
"Riddled with bullets? What were you doing riddling him with bullets? Do you think they grow on trees?"

bil


bil
Where you stand depends on where you sit...

True, but not a very factual film. (3.00 / 1) (#36)
by HereticMessiah on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 05:53:09 PM EST

It's a good film, but not entirely factual (the carbomb? oh, please!) As everybody knows, it's the victors who write the hisory.

--
Disagree with me? Post a reply.
Think my post's poor or trolling? Rate me down.
[ Parent ]
Carbomb? (none / 0) (#46)
by M0dUluS on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 11:24:55 PM EST

I don't remember the carbomb. Who sets it? Who's killed?
The main factual inaccuracy I remember was the Croke Park massacre: in the movie they showed tanks/armored cars driving onto the pitch. In reality the Brits quietly set up a machine gun or two and then opened fire on the crowds.

"[...]no American spin is involved at all. Is that such a stretch?" -On Lawn
[ Parent ]
The carbomb & Bloody Sunday (4.00 / 1) (#48)
by HereticMessiah on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 02:07:19 AM EST

It was in Dublin Castle in the film. I can't remember if anybody was killed. The thing is, it's an anachronism - there weren't any carbombs then. Carbombs were invented far more recently.

You're right about Bloody Sunday (the original one) though. Jordan would have been better off keeping to the facts and just developing tension by interspersing images of the Black and Tans setting up their arms with images of the players and spectators.

--
Disagree with me? Post a reply.
Think my post's poor or trolling? Rate me down.
[ Parent ]

Impressionism... (4.00 / 1) (#51)
by bil on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 05:10:39 AM EST

And it shows far more people being killed at Croke Park then actually were. The directer said it was exagerated to give an idea of what was going on, to try and condense 3 years of terrorism and counter-terrorism operations into a few incidents in a 2 hour film. I guess its trying to be impressionist history and rather then factual history (although still better then Brave Heart ;). I guess the carbomb is a thing we associate with terrorism and so is put in to give us the impression of IRA operations without wasting time explaining the historical details.

Still, its an enjoyable film, as long as you can get over the complete lack of any moral statement beyond goodies + badies.

bil


bil
Where you stand depends on where you sit...
[ Parent ]

I am pretty gloomy (4.00 / 3) (#4)
by nobbystyles on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 06:11:24 AM EST

About the situation so I think 'Apocalpyse Now' sums it all up...

Quite possibly (none / 0) (#16)
by TheophileEscargot on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 11:01:17 AM EST

Some quotes

Kurtz: We must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig. Cow after cow. Village after village. Army after army.

Captain Benjamin L. Willard: Oh man, the shit piled up so fast in Vietnam you needed wings to stay above it.

Captain Benjamin L. Willard: It's a way we had over here with living with ourselves. We cut 'em in half with a machine gun and give'em a Band-Aid.

Lance: Disneyland. Fuck, man, this is better than Disneyland.
----
Support the nascent Mad Open Science movement... when we talk about "hundreds of eyeballs," we really mean it. Lagged2Death
[ Parent ]

Bin Laden (none / 0) (#17)
by nobbystyles on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 11:13:10 AM EST

General Corman: He's out there operating without any decent restraint, totally beyond the pale of any acceptable human conduct. And he is still in the field commanding troops.
Civilian: Terminate with extreme prejudice

[ Parent ]
Kind of (none / 0) (#23)
by mtve on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 02:04:45 PM EST

And Full Metal Jacket about war at large:

Pogue Colonel: The what?
Private Joker: The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir.
--
Fighting for peace


[ Parent ]
It can only be... (4.75 / 8) (#5)
by TheophileEscargot on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 07:06:04 AM EST

Duck Soup by the Marx Brothers

Think about it. An amiable but inexperienced leader is elected, since he is the only one with the financial support.

He passes strict laws:

These are the laws of my administration
No one's allowed to smoke
Or tell a dirty joke
And whistling is forbidden...
If chewing gum is chewed
The chewer is pursued.
And in the hoosegow hidden...
If any form of pleasure is exhibited
Report to me and it will be prohibited.
I'll put my foot down, so shall it be.
This is the land of the free.

Then drifts into a war:

Trentino: There's a machine-gun nest near hill twenty-eight. I want it cleaned out!
Chicolini: All right. I'll tell the janitor.

There are even friendly-fire incidents:

Firefly: Look at them run. Now they know they've been in a war.
Bob: Your Excellency!
Firefly (making the sound of rat-a-tat-tat) They're fleeing like rats.
Bob: But sir, I've got to tell you.
Firefly: (totally engrossed) Remind me to give myself the Firefly Medal for this.
Bob: Your Excellency, you're shooting your own men!

Case closed.
----
Support the nascent Mad Open Science movement... when we talk about "hundreds of eyeballs," we really mean it. Lagged2Death

Whatever it is, I'm Against it (5.00 / 1) (#13)
by Whyaduck on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 10:31:20 AM EST

For those who've never seen Groucho, here's a clip of Groucho's dance from Duck Soup. For many here on k5, the most fitting of Groucho's songs might be "Whatever it is, I'm Against it" from Horsefeathers.


Oh Lydia, oh Lydia, say, have you met Lydia?
Lydia The Tattooed Lady.
She has eyes that folks adore so,
and a torso even more so.

[ Parent ]
Brazil (3.00 / 1) (#6)
by John Thompson on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 08:33:25 AM EST

Brazil

Swordfish (3.00 / 2) (#8)
by depok on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 09:36:34 AM EST

Maybe a bit over the top, but I still enjoyed Swordfish

koen

death has a thousand faces, they all look familiar to me

Three Kings (4.00 / 3) (#9)
by Whyaduck on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 09:56:51 AM EST

Three Kings. As far as I know it's the only major American film that was ever made about the Gulf War.


Oh Lydia, oh Lydia, say, have you met Lydia?
Lydia The Tattooed Lady.
She has eyes that folks adore so,
and a torso even more so.

Nah... (5.00 / 2) (#10)
by Rocky on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 10:06:03 AM EST

..I think there was this movie in 1996 called "Courage Under Fire" in which Meg Ryan was a helicopter pliot in the Gulf War.

If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?
- Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
[ Parent ]
Okay, (5.00 / 1) (#14)
by Whyaduck on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 10:32:48 AM EST

the only good American film about the war ;)


Oh Lydia, oh Lydia, say, have you met Lydia?
Lydia The Tattooed Lady.
She has eyes that folks adore so,
and a torso even more so.

[ Parent ]
Well, (none / 0) (#15)
by kwsNI on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 10:58:33 AM EST

Let's not get too carried away. It was an ok movie. Mark Wahlberg and Ice Cube really carried Clooney through on a lot of parts - and then there were the holes in the story and the bipolar character of Clooney.

My God, Clooney sucked in that movie - whether he made the mistake of accepting a completely BS script or just couldn't pull off his character, I thought he came close to ruining the movie. I still haven't figured out why he goes from Mr. "I'm tough, SOG, focus on the mission, leave the peasants alone" type of guy to a "pansy-assed, can't handle combat effectively, forget about the mission, save the peasants" wimp. I know people can change - but Clooney's character changes every time there's a hole in the story that needs a cheap plug.

kwsNI
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. -Jack Handy
[ Parent ]

It depends on your definition of "about-ness& (none / 0) (#29)
by anansi on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 04:05:27 PM EST

MASH was a television series set in the Korean war, but its producers freely admitted that they had intended it to be about the Vietnam war.

A minor quibble, but it allows me enough space to squeeze in Rules of Engagement which sucked, but I think was supposed to really be about the Gulf war.

On a side note, I wouldn't necessarily rush to go see a movie made in China purporting to be about the annexation of Tibet. In the same way, I wouldn't expect Hollywood to be particularly critical of US foreign policy in the middle east any time soon. But a subtitled foreign film, now I'm all over that!

Don't call it Fascism. Use Musollini's term: "Corporatism"
[ Parent ]

Clooney (5.00 / 1) (#44)
by Nater on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 09:41:45 PM EST

Three Kings also features George Clooney playing someone other than George Clooney, which may very well be more than any other movie or TV show can claim.

In fact, George Clooney, Mark Wallberg, and Ice-T were so good in this movie, that each of them was able to draw me into their respective characters to the extent that I forget about who they were as actors. This probably has a lot to do with direction, but I don't remember who the director was.


i heard someone suggest that we should help the US, just like they helped us in WWII. By waiting three years, then going over there, flashing our money around, shagging all the women and acting like we owned the place. --Seen in #tron


[ Parent ]
Battle of Algiers (none / 0) (#18)
by bmasel on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 11:14:40 AM EST

Battle of Algiers
I am not currently Licensed to Practice in this State.
Network (4.66 / 3) (#19)
by endymion on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 12:09:26 PM EST

An oft forgotten movie, but a very good one, is Network. It certainly puts all of the so-called 'news' we are seeing at the moment in a new light...
- The Code Nazi
z (none / 0) (#20)
by johnny on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 12:54:20 PM EST

Z

yr frn,
jrs
Get your free download of prizewinning novels Acts of the Apostles and Cheap Complex Devices.
My picks (4.25 / 4) (#21)
by mcbeth on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 01:18:42 PM EST

Fight Club
for uncivil disobedience, and an ending that made my wife sick after 9/11. Overrated, underrated, and mismarketed all at the same time, that is very impressive.

Metropolis, Dark City
For what our world could become. I'd include the movie 1984 if it weren't so overused/misunderstood

Logan Run
Straight cheese, and because I once watched it with someone who couldn't figure out what was so wrong with the society.

Blade Runner
Great movie taken from an even better book. Someone arbitrarily deciding what normal was, and destroying all that didn't fit. Classic Philip Dick.

50 votes for Brazil.
I giggled myself silly when I finally got around to hearing someone sing the title song seriously (Rosemary Clooney)

Jeff

Made her sick? (none / 0) (#25)
by ODiV on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 03:36:22 PM EST

Why did the ending of Fight Club make your wife sick? It was made clear that there weren't any people in the buildings. Or was it just a reaction to seeing the buildings topple like that?


--
[ odiv.net ]
[ Parent ]
re: Made wife sick (none / 0) (#55)
by mcbeth on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 11:50:14 AM EST

because of the buildings tumbling

[ Parent ]
Re: Fight Club [spoiler warning!] (3.00 / 1) (#28)
by anansi on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 03:54:12 PM EST

Fight Club seriously messed with my head. It made me ask new questions about my own politics. I was suddenly nauseated by some of the ideas that I had previously taken for granted. Yet at the end, I found myself saying, "What a waste of firepower! they'd have been much better off doing (mumble mumble harumph fumpf)...

On the day of 9/11, I spoke with a friend who only listens to the radio. He doesn't have a TV, he doesn't watch movies. He asked me to tape some of the video footage for him, because he wanted to see what was being described to him.

After a brief struggle with emotional nausea, I told him that was too much like asking me to procure a snuff film for him. He would be better served by renting Fight Club and indeed, it was people who took this movie too seriously who had done this in the first place.

Don't call it Fascism. Use Musollini's term: "Corporatism"
[ Parent ]

Fight Club (4.00 / 1) (#50)
by Nyarlathotep on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 03:02:43 AM EST

No, the orginisation in "fight club" had two serious diffrences from al-Queda: It achived direct millitary goals related to it's objective and it did not kill *anyone*. There are real life left wing "terrorist" orginisations (usually enviromentalists) which destroy property without killing anyone.

I don't think you can seriously say the left wing "terrorist" orginisations are really seaking to "insprire terror" since everyone knows that these people will not kill you. I support they would be perfectly willing to scare the stock price of a company down, but that's hardly "terrorism." There is one scene in the movie where Project Mahem threatens a political leader, so you could claim that they did commit terrorism.. with only one victim.

Anyway, you should *always* be very careful to distinguish between people who want to kill people and people who respect human life.. no matter what you feal about their motives and non-leathel methods. There was nothing stopping Osama bin Laden from crashing planes into the WTC at 2 am, but his people choose the very buisest time of day to maximize casualties.

Suppose a left wing enviromental group released a genetically engenered organism which destroyed crude oil into the ANWR. Clearly, this would cost the U.S. a lot of money, but can you really compare the drop in stock price to killing anyone? (Damn, that would be one effective way to keep people from drilling ANWR.)

Campus Crusade for Cthulhu -- it found me!
[ Parent ]
Minor corrections (4.00 / 1) (#58)
by Mzilikazi on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 01:07:32 PM EST

I don't think you can seriously say the left wing "terrorist" orginisations are really seaking to "insprire terror" since everyone knows that these people will not kill you.
...unless you're a logger cutting into a tree that's had metal spikes planted in the trunk, or a firefighter putting out a burning building.

Suppose a left wing enviromental group released a genetically engenered organism which destroyed crude oil into the ANWR. Clearly, this would cost the U.S. a lot of money, but can you really compare the drop in stock price to killing anyone?
...until it gets loose and starts destroying rubber, plastic, and other petroleum byproducts, which, while certainly satisfying a few people, would undoubtedly lead to mass death and destruction as the entire transportation system is brought to a halt and hospitals are unable to use *any* plastic or rubberized equipment. There was a great science fiction novel that discussed this in great detail, though I can't remember the name of it at the moment. (No, it wasn't The Andromeda Strain, though the bacteria in that book did eat through rubber & plastic, IIRC.)

[ Parent ]

Still not terrorism (none / 0) (#61)
by Nyarlathotep on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 05:08:31 PM EST

Those are all unintentional reasonably far removed consequences, so those responcible are guilty of *negligence*.. only a fool would consider that terrorism. Would you consider it terrorism if a genetically engenered orginism to eliminat oil spills caused the same desasters? These are both negligence. The mear fact that one activity was criminal in the first place dose not make it terrorism when it causes death or a disaster.. it's just means it's got a lot of charges of negligent homicide attached (not murder or terrorism).

BTW> Driving nails into trees is terrorism only if it is intended to hurt loggers so as to make other loggers scared. Personally, I know very little about the intentions of those wacky "tree people," but I kinda doubt they would do things they knew were likely to hurt anyone; hence not terrorism. Planting anti-personel mines in national parks or mailing anthrax to a logging company would be terrorism.

If you really want to think about these as being equivelent then you will eventually just create even more fanatical groups which would start planting landmines in national parks. Conversly, if a fringe group is willing to play by very strict rule of engagment (ala pacifists) then we should use them to moderate even more extream and dangerous elements.

BTW2> I think most of the fire/explosion attacks by enviromentalists have been very controlled burns. It's highly unlikely that any firemen would be harmed.

Campus Crusade for Cthulhu -- it found me!
[ Parent ]
Ecoterrorism or "Economic Sabotage" (none / 0) (#62)
by Mzilikazi on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 06:03:51 PM EST

Here's an article I found particularly enlightening (this really hasn't been an issue in my part of the country--someone showing up in the middle of the night to torch a house would probably be shot on sight.)

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/080601/cottle080601.html

The article also points out the common perception of Americans as being tolerant of environmental terrorism. Frankly, if someone burns my house down, it doesn't really matter to me whether they're pissed off that the house exists or if it's because I happen to belong to some ethnic/religious/social group that wronged his ethnic/religious/social group 100 years ago. Either way, I'm left without lodging. One might wonder what the reaction would be if a group of greedy, evil land developers (you know, the Snidely Whiplash types) began hiring thugs to torch the houses and offices of known ecoterrorists. Hell, it would probably end up being a hate crime.

Frankly, terrorism, like a lot of things, tends to defined in the minds of the victims. Those who suffer from ecoterrorism (in terms of lost property/money/business/whatever) are justified in calling it whatever they want. And arson, whether controlled or not, is still a crime, and a dangerous one at that, and particularly threatening when it's used to drive a message home. One would wonder why burning black churches and crosses is so villified when it's just harmless poltical activism that destroys property and doesn't kill anyone.

[ Parent ]

Not "harmless" (none / 0) (#64)
by Nyarlathotep on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 10:03:15 PM EST

I never claimed ecoterrorism is "harmless." I mearly claimed that we should not treat these people like murderers. Destruction of property is still just destruction of property even if someone looses millions of dollars.

Actually, you are not allowed to shoot someone who comes onto your property and starts bashing your SUV.. you will be locked away for murder (or manslauter). You are allowed to shoot someone who threates your *person* (the courts normally draw this line at entering a house with a weapon).

Campus Crusade for Cthulhu -- it found me!
[ Parent ]
Death caused by crime IS murder / Property defense (none / 0) (#67)
by sonovel on Wed Oct 31, 2001 at 12:50:38 PM EST

In most places, a death caused by a crime is considered murder. So if someone spikes a tree or starts a fire that kills, they are murderers. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Whether these crimes should be treated as attempted murder is debatable. Arson is a particularly vile crime as it can very easilly lead to a firefighters death or death of someone who doesn't get a quick response to 911 due to emergency workers being busy elsewhere.

Given the severity and potential death due to arson, I consider it terrorism. How is arson different than say, bombing a supposably empty building?

Some of these ecofascists are terrorists and some are not. I would draw the line somewhere between chaining oneself to a tree and arson, but the exact point is debatable.

Anyone who doesn't consider arson a terrorist act is naive or stupid. The potential for death from arson is just too great to be considered "just damage to property"

---

In some places one is allowed to use lethal force to stop property crime. In some places a person isn't even allowed to use lethal force to defend her life. All depends on the local law. So your blanket statement on shooting to protect an SUV is incorrect.


[ Parent ]
Funny you should mention that... (5.00 / 1) (#65)
by anansi on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 10:49:50 PM EST

Frankly, if someone burns my house down, it doesn't really matter to me whether they're pissed off that the house exists or if it's because I happen to belong to some ethnic/religious/social group that wronged his ethnic/religious/social group 100 years ago. Either way, I'm left without lodging.

The Isrealis do this all the time to the Palistinians. One can go off to work in the morning, and return to find one's house torn down. Unless you're Jewish, it's impossible to get any sort of building permit for new (or replacement!) construction.

Don't call it Fascism. Use Musollini's term: "Corporatism"
[ Parent ]

re: minor corrections (none / 0) (#71)
by grandpa jive on Thu Nov 01, 2001 at 05:27:54 AM EST

...until it gets loose and starts destroying rubber, plastic, and other petroleum byproducts, which, while certainly satisfying a few people, would undoubtedly lead to mass death and destruction as the entire transportation system is brought to a halt and hospitals are unable to use *any* plastic or rubberized equipment.

Come back Zinc! Come back!!!!

[ Parent ]
Dark City, Parallax View (none / 0) (#37)
by anansi on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 06:00:18 PM EST

I just thought of a bunch of more recent films in this genre. The Matrix, Existenz, The Truman Show , and Total Recall were some standouts, but I realized this might be another catagory. And I think I know how to define it.

When you say, "conspiracy theory", usually it's an insult, like the person you're saying it to belongs in the flat earth society. But recent events have given me a counterexample: Nowhere have I seen any serious evidence linking 9/11 to the anthrax outbreaks. To speak of them as being in any way related is by definition a conspiracy theory. Yet I don't think that's an insult in this case at all. Anyone who says they are unrelated has a higher burden of proof, IMHO.

That's why I have a category called "crisis of epistemology" instead of, "conspiracy theories". Epistemology is the study of how we know what we know. Epistemologies break down when incoming data cannot be conceptualized within the existing paradigm. Insanity is often the result, and war might be characterized as that state when large numbers of people go insane at the same time in the same way. It becomes 'normal' to be insane. (mob psychology talks about the same thing)

The genre that I would put Dark City and those others in, would have to be "solipsism" more than "conspiracy theories". The Parallax View probably belongs in this catagory as well, but I just recently saw it again, and the airplane scene is worth the price of admission alone.


Don't call it Fascism. Use Musollini's term: "Corporatism"
[ Parent ]

Platos Cave (none / 0) (#57)
by mcbeth on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 12:31:34 PM EST

I must not have read the article close enough. I was just thinking about movies related to my thoughts on the events, and not necesarily things like consiracy theories, or crisis of epistemology, or solipsisms.

I would class most of the movies on my list as Platos Cave style movies. They are fun, but of course for them to be interesting, there has to be a flaw.
Another good movie in the Platos Cave genre (or whatever you want to call it) is Memento

The Matrix was a great live action comic book, but the story has been done much better before in movies like Dark City. I'll admit to not having seen Existenz, so I can't comment on it.

Total Recall. Once again, a great story by Phillip Dick. Visually the movie sucked, and in many ways hid the great story it was based on. Most people I've talked to who hate the movie either hate it for the cheezy effects, or can't see Arnold in a thinking role. I'm neutral. The good story saves the movie from some hokey acting.

BTW I guess I am a Phillip Dick fanboy.

[ Parent ]
Three Kings (3.66 / 3) (#24)
by ToastyKen on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 02:31:19 PM EST

Three Kings is a great warning message for us and great commentary on our Middle East policies. In particular, it shows the tragedy of our decision to incite rebellion against Saddam Hussein and then to leave the rebels to the sharks once the war was over.

Patton (2.50 / 2) (#26)
by WombatControl on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 03:39:32 PM EST

The great Patton, starring the incomparable George C. Scott, should be required viewing for all Americans. One wouldn't even have to view the whole thing, just the first few minutes (the big speech scene. The one that starts off No one ever won a war by dying for their country. They won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. It's a classic moment of American cinema.)

Better yet, we should translate it into Pashtun and broadcast it 24/7 over Afghanistan. Or even better, have it be an unscheduled movie of the day on al-Jazeera...



Brazil? (none / 0) (#30)
by kaitian on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 04:05:52 PM EST

Where bureaucracy rules all, and the terrorists fix your air conditioning? Sure it's a dystopia, but I don't see how I could be related to these current events.

Brazil is a state of mind [spoilers] (5.00 / 1) (#31)
by anansi on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 04:21:36 PM EST

The title of this movie had nothing to do with the country of the same name. This movie didn't try to define terrorism in hard and fast terms. Where most power fantasies begin with a superhero living in mundane times,Brazil was about being a regular person in extraordinary times.

Remember that scene where he's driving away with his object of desire, and he's getting off on the cops&robbers aspect of it all, and then the camera shows a flaming guard while Jill reminds us that this man had a family? To me, that has a lot to do with what's going on right now. It also shines some insight into what made Timothy McVeigh rationalize his actions, and the thoughts of the shooters at Columbine.

The other scene that keeps jumping into my head, is when our would-be hero pounces on that ticking christmas present, only to discover it really is a clock. It makes me think of the very real transit disruptions in my home town, caused when people see a trickle of powdered soap and think, "Anthrax!"

I'm kind of wishing I could have trimmed more titles from this list (I started with a lot more!) but Brazil would probably be the last film i would remove. It sums up this historical moment very well, from my POV.

Don't call it Fascism. Use Musollini's term: "Corporatism"
[ Parent ]

A few.. (4.00 / 1) (#35)
by DeadBaby on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 05:34:37 PM EST

-Dr. Strangelove
No need to explain.

-The Searchers
There's a very important moral message in this film. If this "war on terrorism" continues long into the future I think we'll run the risk of becoming overly obsessed as the main character in this film does in his search.

-Sabotage
The British Sabotage by Alfred Hitchcock, not the American film of the same name but also by Hitchcock. It's an interesting look at how terrorists (domestic or otherwise) hide their work and exist within a normal society.

-THX-1138
I don't know what it is about this movie but it's one of the first things I thought of after 9/11. Maybe I'm just incredibly screwed up.

-The Stand
A rare case where the film was actually quite good compared to the book. The biological warfare aspect of it is more pertinent than it was when Stephen King wrote this masterpiece.

-Brazil
I can't agree enough about Brazil.. A great movie but watching it now makes the message of the film even stronger.




"Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity -- in all this vastness -- there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. It is up to us." - Carl Sagan
Lawrence of Arabia (nt) (none / 0) (#40)
by Delirium on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 06:59:00 PM EST



My choice (4.00 / 1) (#41)
by MSBob on Mon Oct 29, 2001 at 07:14:27 PM EST

My vote goes to Jacob's Ladder. A dark movie that I couldn't stop thinking about after 9/11. I can't say why. I'm not a religious person but "Jacob's Ladder" stayed with me for a long time. Can't say why though...
I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

Re: Jacob's Ladder (none / 0) (#75)
by anansi on Thu Nov 01, 2001 at 07:52:18 PM EST

That one really messed with my head. There have been times in my life when I've wondered to myself, "am I really alive?" and I think of this film every time.

Don't call it Fascism. Use Musollini's term: "Corporatism"
[ Parent ]

The Beast (4.50 / 2) (#47)
by J'raxis on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 01:04:05 AM EST

The Beast
During the war in Afghanistan a Soviet tank crew commanded by a tyrannical officer find themselves lost and in a struggle against a band of Mujahadeen guerrillas in the mountains. A unique look at the Soviet ‘Vietnam’ experience sympathetically told for both sides.
— The Raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]

Prisoner of the mountains (4.00 / 1) (#52)
by bil on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 05:37:29 AM EST

How about Prisoner of the mountains.
Based upon a short story by Leo Tolstoy, two Russian soldiers, Sacha and Vania, are ambushed by Muslim rebels in the grandly forbidding Caucasus and taken prisoner. Although complete understanding never fully emerges, their bittersweet ordeal reveals the human soul of two vastly different cultures.
The only film I've ever seen or even heard of about the war in Cechnya, apparently when Yeltsin saw it, it had such an effect he stopped the war.

bil


bil
Where you stand depends on where you sit...
[ Parent ]

I'd add... (3.50 / 2) (#53)
by ennui on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 08:38:24 AM EST

Kentucky Fried Movie, just because it's one of my favorites. It's topical because of the "That's Amageddeon" bit.

-1 because if we're doing these silly, tangental articles I'd rather have "What breakfast cereal character would be most effective in the fight against terrorism" or "If the US was the Autobots and Afghanistan the Decepticons, who would win?"

"You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone." -- Al Capone
Fail Safe. (none / 0) (#56)
by Kasreyn on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 12:14:56 PM EST

The original with Henry Fonda (1964 IIRC), not the |_4m3 90's remake. Really makes you wonder about how good our control over our own military power is.


-Kasreyn


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
Starship Troopers (4.00 / 1) (#59)
by adrien on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 01:17:31 PM EST

Well, especially the Federal Network spots, Rio de Janeiro is destroyed (look at the footage!), the President of the Council's speech (or whatever his title was -- I think Bush quoted that speech a few times recently.), children stomping bugs, WAR WAR WAR...

If any film has sucessfully modeled modern America in a time of war, it is this film. It's even funnier because it has so many subtle and not so subtle parallels with recent events...

OTOH, I have a couple of questions as to why: Pi, The Conversation, and The Parallax View are doing in this list. Great films, I agree, but what is the relationship to WTC, the bombing of Afghanistan or Anthrax?

Just for kicks, I think it's time to rent Rambo III. Yup, that's the one where Rambo goes to Afghanistan to fight... The Russians! Yes! By helping... the Afghani Freedom Fighters! Yeah!


-adrien
Check out this link (none / 0) (#74)
by anansi on Thu Nov 01, 2001 at 07:48:09 PM EST

OTOH, I have a couple of questions as to why: Pi, The Conversation, and The Parallax View are doing in this list. Great films, I agree, but what is the relationship to WTC, the bombing of Afghanistan or Anthrax?

The short answer, is sheer paranoia. I read this guy's screed and believed it. I'm not saying that he's right, just that he's managed to convince me, where CNN, The New York Times, the Bush clan, and countless waving flags have not.

I especially agree with his conclusion that only a public discussion of these events can avert worse to come in the future. So this film festival was my attempt to get people to think outside the box.

Starship Troopers was amusing enough in its way, but the idea that fascism can be recognized by the cut of the uniform or by officers cheering out loud, "It's afraid!" seemed sort of besides the point. I find the 'anti-terrorism' bill and public officials warning us 'we all should watch what we say' to be pretty chilling. I found the Ollie North trials to be pretty fascist, as well as what I've read about McCarthyism. I hope we're not due for more of the same in the name of "(in)Security".

Don't call it Fascism. Use Musollini's term: "Corporatism"
[ Parent ]

matrix (4.00 / 1) (#60)
by J O on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 02:36:00 PM EST

Me and some friends had planned watching The Matrix for some days after 09/11 and we were quite surprised by the new perspective this film has got now. I think its most important message is not to accept that everything you are told is right really is true. Although this might make me get flamed, I will tell you that we realized there are quite a lot of parallels between the character Morpheus and Osama Bin Laden: - Morpheus is said to be "the most dangerous man alive", the completely evil by agents. The same is what US-governement & Co. say about Bin Laden - Bin Laden is said to be a very charismatic person, Morpheus is as well - don't tell me you did not identify with Morpheus and his cause when you watched The Matrix. - They both kill innocent and ignorant people without problems (or allow them to be killed). When watching The Matrix some year ago or so, we never really questioned this ethical conflict when identifying with Morpheus & Co. - They both base their theories on questions of belief. The ideology of Morpheus faction in The Matrix might be only semi-religous (in contrast to Bin Ladens fundamentalistic-religious), but it is. There are more parallels if you watch closely. My question here is: where is the fault? Is it wrong to compare Bin Laden and Morpheus? Is it wrong to identify with Morpheus? Or what else? Please don't get me wrong: I do not agree with any killings of - not only innocent, but any - people, and I could never symphatize with terrorists doing so, but this exactly made me ask the question above.

I don't remember Morpheus killing any innocents (none / 0) (#68)
by dbc001 on Wed Oct 31, 2001 at 02:55:50 PM EST

And I'm sure that if I watched the movie again I would forget to look for it. Could someone refresh my memory?

-dbc

[ Parent ]
IIRC it is not shown directly in the film (none / 0) (#72)
by J O on Thu Nov 01, 2001 at 09:14:23 AM EST

In my posting I should have said "Morpheus' faction", or "the Resistance" instead of "Morpheus" himself, as (if my memory does not betray me) he is not really shown killing innocent persons. But at least Neo is told in the "gestapo" interrogation that Morpheus would be very dangerous and has killed many people. And of course, Morpheus told Neo in the training programme, that anyone not freed "is potentially an agent" which is used as "justification" for the killings - also quite a parallel to the actual political situation, or doesn't Bin Laden tell his followers that every US-American is potentially one of his enemies?

[ Parent ]
Fight Club is like this too... [spoilers] (5.00 / 1) (#73)
by anansi on Thu Nov 01, 2001 at 07:22:45 PM EST

The violence-to-innocents is implied rather than shown. Operation Mayhem doesn't create any non-combatant casualties on screen, but if you're going to accept the last 20 minutes of the film as having as much 'validity' as the setup, you have to acknowlege that no plan is perfect, there is no insurance that innocents will not be physically hurt. (hell, for that matter, the guy in the quicky-mart might have gone off and killed himself, unable to handle the pressure)

The question I like to ask myself about The Matrix, is, how does the crew of that hovership know that they are really lucid? For all they know, there could be another layer of brood-comb that they're still stuck in, one that wants them to believe that they ae making a difference.

Did anyone notice the similarity between the brood comb of The Matrix and the brood comb of X-Files? The main difference was, in the X files, you went to the brood comb if you were caught by 'the bad guys', while in the matrix, you started off in the brood comb, and had to escape or be rescued from it.

Consider also the next-to-last action sequence in The Matrix, where Neo and Trinity shoot up the lobby to that nameless government building? In what way are they not terrorist? We get to assume for the sake of the movie's storyline that these are mindless drones of the evil empire, that they have no children at home, that they are guilty-by-association with the rogue secret-service men who are torturing Morphius. It makes for a great sunday afternoon entertainment, but as moral justification, it's the sort of reasoning used by Timothy McVeigh when he blew up a government building.

And at the risk of stating a political opinion, it's the same kind of reasoning that the Shrub and his cronies want us to adopt with his villian-of-the-week Bin Laden. Remember all the other villians-of-the-weeks? And all the innocent lives lost as we tried to bomb them to hell? Khomeni, Noriega, Saddam Hussein? I'm really getting tired of this particular plotline...

Don't call it Fascism. Use Musollini's term: "Corporatism"
[ Parent ]

But, why do people identify with this? (none / 0) (#76)
by J O on Sun Nov 04, 2001 at 02:42:13 PM EST

I agree completely with what you say. But the problem I have is: If people identify with Neo, Trinity, Morpheus and the others, why can this happen? And might this as well explain (at least partly) why some people all over the world - some of them secretly - identify with terrorists, especially Bin Laden? I have to admit, that when watching The Matrix for the first time, I also identified with the "Resistance". Now, as a result of information and discussion, I do not identify with Bin Laden. But not many people are informed as well as we are. And not many people have the possibility or even the right to discuss such things. Returning to politics, I would say this is a very important task in our times: Education of people to allow them to get balanced information and to discuss it freely. Everything that suppresses this creates the possibility that people identify or agree with eg. violence without thinking what it means.

[ Parent ]
Not sure I understand your question (none / 0) (#77)
by anansi on Tue Nov 06, 2001 at 03:16:23 AM EST

But the problem I have is: If people identify with Neo, Trinity, Morpheus and the others, why can this happen?

Why can what happen?

But not many people are informed as well as we are.

Well, what you might call being 'well informed', someone else might call 'being very sheltered and naive'. Don't assume that just because we have huge pipelines of news being spewed 24/7, this means we are being given all the information we need to know.

For example, much ink was given to the 500 or so votes for bush that came in from overseas after the deadline had passed, thus tipping the scales barely over the edge in favor of the shrub. Yet no ink has been spent on the thousands of black voters turned away at the polls on voting day. It's a classic diversion, always admit to the lesser of two crimes.

It's the same thing with civilian casualties in afghanistan: a few hundred civilians may die from bombings, while 5 to 7 million afghanis will likely starve this winter, because existing releif efforts have been shut down unilaterally by US actions. (the arial food drops the the us is doing are tiny compared to the relief efforts that have been going on for years.)

As far as "educating people" goes, I think it's tough enough to educate ourselves, without adding to the noise and FUD that's going on around us. Propaganda always must travel through some sort of medium. True teaching happens by example first and foremost.

Looking at american imperialism even just in the last 50 years, it's clear that the shrub's war on terrorism isn't meant to apply to US use of force, even though the school of the americas teaches the same stuff as the camps we've been bombing. The "war on terrorism" is an initiative to insure that the US and US-friendly states have a monopoly on terror.

Hell, think about it. War IS terror. So a war ON terror is like tryng to kill death. It's semantic nonsense.

Don't call it Fascism. Use Musollini's term: "Corporatism"
[ Parent ]

The Big Lebowski (5.00 / 1) (#66)
by FuzzyOne on Tue Oct 30, 2001 at 11:28:35 PM EST

Every time I see Dubya up there talkin' like his daddy, I think about The Big Lebowski, with George H.W. Bush's line (echoed by Jeff Lebowski later):

"This aggression will not stand, man!"

And then there's this line, readily adapted if you just substitute your favorite country/religion/terrorst act. I think about this line when I hear about neo-Nazis or German nihilists spreading anthrax:

Walter Sobchak: "Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos."

being Canadian... (none / 0) (#69)
by coffee splash on Wed Oct 31, 2001 at 03:25:43 PM EST

I suggest Canadian Bacon. We saw it last weekend and laughed our asses off. Then we somberly discussed the "Wag-the-Dog"-ishness of it, and the various conspiracies involved with the WTC attacks. And then we laughed some more.

How could you forget about... (5.00 / 1) (#70)
by grandpa jive on Thu Nov 01, 2001 at 05:21:17 AM EST

Dr. Strangelove, or How I Learned to Love the Bomb.

After seeing it for the first time this year, and again after the 11th, it chills me to the bone for these reasons:

1. Patriotic soldiers just doing their civic duty, following instructions leads to the destruction of the world. I don't believe they were wrong to do so, just the actions that they weren't aware of was the problem.

2. The Doomsday device. The events concerning such device, too "What good is a doomsday device if you don't tell anyone about it???!!"

3. Jingoistic generals not realizing the full results of their actions. And backing up other generals for their actions.

4. "Mien furher!! I can WALK!!"

BTW- if you haven't gotten the oppertunity to see this film, do so!

One more addition (none / 0) (#78)
by WWWWolf on Fri Jan 04, 2002 at 06:46:42 AM EST

In The Name of the Father

I mean, not long ago USA got these new laws to "prevent terrorism" and decided to make terrorist trials secret... and when I saw this movie on DVD in local movie shop, I remembered why this new US law sounded somewhat suspicious.

And of the listed movies, I recommend The Siege. Someone also recommended Starship Troopers - precisely the movie I had in mind when the war in Afghanistan was beginning.

-- Weyfour WWWWolf, a lupine technomancer from the cold north...


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