Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
Why do you get out of bed in the morning?

By xj479 in Culture
Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 04:31:04 PM EST
Tags: Round Table (all tags)
Round Table

You there, the one reading kuro5hin. Why do you do what you do? What provides purpose in your life? What, besides necessity and social pressure, keeps you gainfully employed?


ADVERTISEMENT
Sponsor: rusty
This space intentionally left blank
...because it's waiting for your ad. So why are you still reading this? Come on, get going. Read the story, and then get an ad. Alright stop it. I'm not going to say anything else. Now you're just being silly. STOP LOOKING AT ME! I'm done!
comments (24)
active | buy ad
ADVERTISEMENT

Upon coming home from another unsatisfying week of work and situating myself in front of the tube (monitor), I started pondering my existence... but not in the grand-scheme-of-things sense, more along the lines of what's-the-next-step-on-the-evolutionary-ladder. I work all day with a bi-monthly reward of pay and the personal satisfaction of a job well done but, it just isn't enough. What happened to the novelty experienced during childhood and early adolescence? Life had purpose then, Things were moving forward.

Yes, learning why that zombie netscape process just won't die peacefully would be extremely satisfying, it won't explain to my why my hobbie has turned me in to a tool of the industry; and, what purpose procreating, becoming more proficient in my trade, and collecting worldly experiences serves (beyond perpetuating the existence of the human race). Is that all there is to life? Then why do I feel a huge gaping void in me? It feels like something that could be filled by quiting my desk job to go out deep in to the woods and living like a savage. Hunting wild animals, using nothing but my cunning and opposible digits, then smearing their warm blood over my naked body while I dance around the campfire. It's not a good idea to burn bridges though. "Wouldn't be prudent."

I've tried a little of everything; ascetism, indulgence, moderation (currently); but, but they're all part of the same beast, leading me nowhere. Am I doing something wrong? Are psychedelic drugs the answer? Do I need to rent even more foreign films every weekend?

How do you deal with it? Do you deal with it? Or have you transcended such mundane dilemnas?

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Poll
I live for...
o the weekend (absence of work). 9%
o work. 4%
o food/sex/drugs. 14%
o whatever, just put me out of my misery. 16%
o discourse/science/etc.. 12%
o my children/spouse/family/german shepherd. 7%
o other. 22%
o This poll disgusts me. 12%

Votes: 195
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Kuro5hin
o Also by xj479


Display: Sort:
Why do you get out of bed in the morning? | 248 comments (245 topical, 3 editorial, 0 hidden)
I ask myself this every day. (4.14 / 7) (#2)
by Jin Wicked on Fri Aug 24, 2001 at 10:37:25 PM EST

And the only reason I can ever come up with for why I'm still alive, despite all the crap that's happened to me (since I was a small kid, even), is that I have something to say. It seems like no matter how much I get dumped on me or how bad things get, I still draw and I still feel the urge to create. I can't not do it. It really seems as if I have no choice sometimes.

Here lately it's been stronger than it ever has, but it could be due to the fact that after being kind of in a rut for a long time, I'm finally coming out of it and dealing with literally having more ideas than I can handle.

If I can manage to help a few people understand themselves better, or get someone to think of something they might not have, or just be entertainment, and still manage to keep my head above water...that's good enough for me, I think. But then again, I'm just following what I'm driven to do and what I've been doing my whole life. (Not that hunting down animals and dancing around a campfire like savages doesn't sound fun...)

I know of all my jobs, the only one I've ever enjoyed was picture framing. (What I'm doing now.) I may be selling stuff, but it also involves people trusting me with their artwork, memories, and all other kinds of important things... and they also trust me to make them look the best they can and help preserve them for years to come. I've never had a problem getting out of bed in the morning... only problems with occassionally crying myself to sleep at night.


This post was probably not written by the real Jin Wicked. Please see user "butter pie" for Jin's actual posts.


Yep. (3.66 / 3) (#8)
by danceswithcrows on Fri Aug 24, 2001 at 11:23:04 PM EST

And the only reason I can ever come up [...] is that I have something to say. [...] I still feel the urge to create.

Good answer. Creating art is a far better justification for Life than lots of other things I can think of. I used to live for that too, then got sidetracked. If the Net didn't exist, I'd almost certainly spend more time on art and writing and probably be happier in the long run. It's just so much easier to dash off a 50-line Usenet article answering somebody's question about a 3c905 or a 600-word K5 diary than to spend several hours writing 1100 words on a very large novel. The Net provides immediate, small results; offline creation of huge nifty things takes a lot longer but is potentially far more rewarding. Guess which wins out.

What keeps me getting up in the morning is a combination of sheer perversity, habit, and irrational hope. I've plumbed the depths of despair, and I really don't want to go back there. I have a friend who's going through something that looks like clinical depression, and I've seen him get worse because sometimes he doesn't bother to get out of bed in the morning. Activity of any sort brings the potential for positive change, unlike lying in bed moping.

I've had days that were going hideously suddenly turn around and become great, for no reason at all, and vice versa. The uncertainty is annoying, but interesting all the same.

Matt G (aka Dances With Crows) There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see
[ Parent ]

Ideas (3.42 / 7) (#3)
by RangerBob on Fri Aug 24, 2001 at 10:43:46 PM EST

For one, actually change your life instead of thinking about it. The biggest problem I see with people is that they just quit. It's all good to think about what to do, but at some point in time you have to actually make yourself do it.

I'd recommend some human contact. You admit that you sit at home a lot. Go out and try to socialize. That helped me quite a bit when I was single. If fact, I've spent more time at home since I got married than all the years I was single beforehand.

On another note, I think we should all try to keep things in perspective, so here's a story I use to remind myself. One day, I was really stressed out from work since I had to spend the entire day doing project planning for the next fiscal year. I went to get my wife from work since she had broken her foot and couldn't drive. She works at a medical clinic here in town. As I was walking towards the building, I noticed several people helping an old man to a cab. He had an oxygen tank, looked really old and haggared, and couldn't even stand up straight. A doctor and some nurses were physically moving him to the cab. When I told my wife about this, she said that he's also a patient of theirs. He's 92, in really poor health, and lives by himself since none of his kids feel the need to help him out. He's a really nice guy, but probably doesn't have many years left to this world. The sad part is that he'll die alone and in a lot of pain.

The moral of the above story is that while we may often think we have it bad, there are MANY people out there who have it far worse than we do.

if you knew this ... (none / 0) (#76)
by jsebrech on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 08:42:31 AM EST

If you knew this about the old man, then why didn't you go this his home and spend some time talking with him?


[ Parent ]
I'll tell you why I wouldn't.. (none / 0) (#117)
by NDPTAL85 on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 01:16:05 AM EST

I can't speak for him but I wouldn't go because its too draining personally. I really believe that each person has a unique amount of empathy (just as others have a unique amount of intelligence, boob size, dick length...etc) and putting oneself in a situation where you must care for those in such a dire situation just empties you. It would destroy me. I can't let that happen to me so I wouldn't. Its not like you would change anything. The guy is old and on his way out either way. If his own kids don't feel the need to be around him that should tell you something too. But no I'm not trying to justify anything. I know I'm an uncaring selfish bastard but hey we can't all be nice. If you think its easy try spending some time in a nursing home, but not the rich or middle class ones. Spend some time in a nursing home for the poor. Get to know the people. Then keep in mind you don't have enough money to help the entire building or even care for one person. Also keep in mind like I said they are gonna die anyway. When I get old I'm not gonna expect anyone to care for me, including my own family. I'll except my own decline with grace. Yes my heart really is that dark. :) Some care, others realize caring sucks. Flame on!

[ Parent ]
nursing home for the poor? (none / 0) (#152)
by ChannelX on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 02:28:36 PM EST

I've never heard of such a thing. Every nursing home I've ever heard of is expensive for just about anyone but the rich. Where have you seen nursing homes for the poor?

[ Parent ]
Oh that's the way to be... (none / 0) (#222)
by bgalehouse on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 09:26:43 PM EST

Life isn't so bad, because others have it worse? Good grief.

Life isn't so bad because it isn't. Not for you, not for him. Untill the day you die, there will be more books to read, more sunshine, more debates to hold, more sites to see, more people to know, more to learn, more to do.

Almost all of what people feel, they feel because, at some level, they think that they should. So let yourself think that the world is full of interesting and fun things. Don't think about how it could be worse. Sometimes I think toddlers understand this better than adults.

[ Parent ]

cuz the toilet is too far to hit from the bed (3.45 / 11) (#4)
by eLuddite on Fri Aug 24, 2001 at 10:43:48 PM EST

and by the time I return, the lovely wife is proudly bouncing a dime off freshly made sheets. This is not grounds for divorce, apparently.

How do you deal with it? Do you deal with it? Or have you transcended such mundane dilemnas?

Oh, hitch a ride with someone else, you weenie. Living alone is nothing but trouble.

---
God hates human rights.

Many Reasons (3.00 / 5) (#5)
by dyskordus on Fri Aug 24, 2001 at 11:01:32 PM EST

Some mornings I get out of bed because I am excited about what the day has to offer.

Other mornings I get out of bed because the dog jumped on me and will not stop licking my face.

On some other mornings I get out of bed because I ran out of paid time off and have bills to pay.

And finally on some mornings I get out of bed due to spite, determined to do better than those who would have me fail could ever dream of.


"Reality is less than television."-Brian Oblivion.

You have a dog? (3.00 / 2) (#10)
by Jin Wicked on Fri Aug 24, 2001 at 11:36:00 PM EST

You lucky bastard.


This post was probably not written by the real Jin Wicked. Please see user "butter pie" for Jin's actual posts.


[ Parent ]
Dogs are wonderful (none / 0) (#14)
by dyskordus on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 01:19:24 AM EST

I love dogs, sometimes I think more than people. A mixed-breed (purebred and inbred are often synonymous(sic) in dogs) dog raised in a good environment is one of the most pleasant creatures I have ever been in the company of.


"Reality is less than television."-Brian Oblivion.
[ Parent ]

I agree (5.00 / 2) (#22)
by Skippy on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 09:47:24 AM EST

We had a dog when I was younger who used to like to lay against the wall and sleep. She had a long tail and when you came into the room she'd wake up and wag that tail for all it was worth. This would produce a *wap*wap*wap* sound as the tail hit the wall. No matter how bad my day had been that sound never failed to make my day better. That was the sound of love.

# I am now finished talking out my ass about things that I am not qualified to discuss. #
[ Parent ]
You need a new job/career. (3.00 / 5) (#6)
by Blackfell on Fri Aug 24, 2001 at 11:12:20 PM EST

Let's face it. A bad working environment or an unsatisfying career will wreck even the most well-adjusted individual. I've been there, and it sucked. After quitting my job (the working environment was hell), moving to a more temperate locale, and getting a job where I wasn't a monkey in a suit, my mood improved *drastically*. As for money, I've found that finances usually end up working out with a bit of care. Mental health, on the other hand, is a lot harder to fix.
Written by a single drunk monkey with a copy of MS Word 2000.
What if your job is already good? (none / 0) (#138)
by Valdrax on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 12:18:02 PM EST

What if your job is good, and you still can't stand to get up in the morning? I'm in that situation myself. I've done the whole horrible job thing before, and I know just how wonderful my job is in comparison, yet I still don't want to go. I still have the same problems that the poster of the article does.

You see, my first job was customer support for mission critical software. They didn't train us well because they were understaffed. They made their money off of maintenance payments, so they didn't bother to make the user interface less painful than dragging barbed wire through your nose. Any time a customer called, they were losing money or people's important records, such as insurance claims. It was always a crisis of some sort. They paid poorly, demanded rigid hours, demanded a rigid dress code, and their product sucked despite being the lynchpin behind hundreds of financial and insurance companies' operations. The company was literally 40% management, and all of it was bad. Corporate infighting and high turnover were eating the company alive. While I was there, their parent company was bought-out. The company that took them over took the assets they wanted and tossed the rest of the company aside to continue its business while selling its subsidies off to Vulture Capitalists who used IPO smoke-and-mirrors to distract employees while they were waiting to downsize huge amounts of useful employees (not managers) and attempt to sell it off.

It was miserable, and I left them behind thinking that it would make me happy.

Now, I'm working for a software company that makes really cool and interesting products oriented towards research and military customers. I have minimal interference from my one manager who handles the entire development department, and there is no constant rumbling of thunder and cannonfire from bickering middle managers and VPs to ruin my day. I'm writing cool software that challenges me at every step. I'm paid very well, and I have a nice private cubicle which my manager visits very, very rarely instead of looming over my every keystroke. I am trusted to handle things myself, and I am able to co-workers who have worked at the company for many, many years when I stumped about older code. I work on flex-time, and they don't demand that I come in more than 40 hours per week. The company is a leader in its market, it's financially stable, and it is growing steadily. I'm still in college, and when I graduate, they are eager to hire me as a full-fledged employee.

...and I'm still not happy.

While having a terrible job can really make you unhappy, having a good job doesn't mean that you won't be. I still wonder the exact same things that the poster of this article wondered. I have the same urges to abandon it all, but ugly financial reality keeps me tied to this job. Worse, because it's such a good job that pays so well, when I get in this funk and can't get anything done, I feel guilty; I feel like I'm cheating my employers. I look at this job and wonder about whether I can be happy anywhere if I'm not happy here. I don't think I'd be so unhappy about slacking off and being tired of my job if it were a bad one, but having these feelings about a good job is in some ways worse.

My advice? Well, since I can't figure out how to fix myself, I don't really have good advice on what to do. I certainly don't have anything better than other posters have described. I'd just like to say that I sympathize with the original poster.

[ Parent ]
did you ever think... (none / 0) (#153)
by ChannelX on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 02:35:36 PM EST

that either youre doing the wrong thing in college or you just dont belong in a tech job? Seriously. If I could go back and do it all over again I wouldn't bother with a tech job even though it pays very well. At some point I will change professions. Right now I dont mind it all that much but some days I just wonder what the point is. My real dream: open a coffee shop. Might sound stupid but its what I really want to do. One of these days I will.

[ Parent ]
I don't sleep in a bed. (3.80 / 5) (#7)
by la princesa on Fri Aug 24, 2001 at 11:14:18 PM EST

Beds are too soft and I only sleep about three hours at a stretch anyhow, usually a couple of hours between 7am and noon. In any case, when I do rise from my blanket on the floor or sofa, it's because there's a lot of beauty and wonder out in the world. Some of it I get to provide for others, and some of it I get to discover and benefit from. I wake each day for the chance to murder and create, and inspire others to do the same. I don't understand not wanting to find beauty, or experience the fullness and joy of living, having adventures alone and with people one cares for, feeling glorious intensities of emotion as one moves through life. I live for inspiration, art and beauty and wish more people chose that path.


suicide (nt) (3.12 / 8) (#9)
by Delirium on Fri Aug 24, 2001 at 11:34:40 PM EST



shit, that scares me (4.50 / 2) (#25)
by mami on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 11:16:49 AM EST

What do you do when you read something like that ?

[ Parent ]
Plan it! (none / 0) (#68)
by Jebediah on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 05:05:21 AM EST

When you read advice like that the best thing to do is plan out the situation, just in case you ever need it.

Case in point: when I was in junior high and high school I was ready for suicide. Of course, you don't want to have a slow agonizing miscarriage of death, nei? I planned. I thought of one of the best ways to commit suicide in the foul state of Minnesota.

The plan? Wait till the the winter. Take the Jim Beam and other assorted hard liqour from under the kitchen cabinet. Then grab all the pills I could find from the bathroom. Put them in a bag (easier to carry) and throw them in the car. Grab the car keys and head off somewhere remote (preferebly a forest), and proceed to consume pills and liqour. After completing a deadly mixture and before passing out, roll the window of the car down. Wait until you pass out. With any luck if the pills and liqour don't get ya the freezing to death will.

[ Parent ]
Are you nuts ? (5.00 / 1) (#79)
by mami on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 10:25:37 AM EST

I wouldn't joke with comments like that. May be someone knows who is behind this delirium nick name. Tomorrow you hear he committed suicide. The little note from him here could have been a way of letting you know he is suicital. What scares me about it is that there are no ways to contact whoever that might be and try to get him away from doing it.

It always amazes me what sort of things I have to clarify in my comments with a second comment.

[ Parent ]
Yes, I am (none / 0) (#101)
by Jebediah on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 08:42:35 PM EST

I may be nuts, but I am not stupid. If that was Delirium's good bye to the world not much would stop him. If you are that concerned send him an e-mail. His e-mail is listed you know. He also has a diary. Go look at that. He doesn't sound suicidal to me.

[ Parent ]
hmm (none / 0) (#102)
by Delirium on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 10:11:37 PM EST

It's kind of strange watching a discussion wherein people you don't know attempt to discern whether you're suicidal or not, and whether something should be done about it.

[ Parent ]
Because the alarm goes off .... (3.83 / 6) (#11)
by ezroot on Fri Aug 24, 2001 at 11:43:06 PM EST

and it's purposely too far away to reach it from bed!

+ I have a beautiful wife, the cutest little girl, a brand new job (which I've been at for 15 mos but just officially got hired into today!) and a wonderful family. So, I go make money doing cool stuff for cool people to pay bills and provide for my wonderful nuclear, 50's family!

Wahoo! Praise God, ... and to think: This is just the beginning!

Purpose (4.20 / 5) (#12)
by SPrintF on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 12:48:54 AM EST

what purpose procreating, becoming more proficient in my trade, and collecting worldly experiences serves?
It serves no purpose at all. Life serves no purpose but itself. You said it yourself,
beyond perpetuating the existence of the human race
Or, as Samuel Butler said, "The hen is an egg's way of producing another egg."

So, what do you do? Do what you enjoy, and make the best of the time you have. Really, that's all there is to life.

See other discussion... (3.00 / 3) (#13)
by seebs on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 12:55:52 AM EST

Look under "what religion for a rational geek", or whatever that thread was.

I get out of bed in the AM ... (3.60 / 5) (#15)
by joegee on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 02:38:53 AM EST

to vex the people who would wish I would stay there. :)

<sig>I always learn something on K5, sometimes in spite of myself.</sig>
It's a cycle! (4.27 / 11) (#16)
by brettjs on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 06:12:25 AM EST

I get out of bed in the morning, because logically, if I do not, I will not have the pleasure of getting back into it in the evening... or 3am... or whenever I decide to do so. I also regularly bang my head against large stone structures, just because it feels so good when i stop.

Easy... (4.20 / 15) (#17)
by baptiste on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 06:31:01 AM EST

When my 2 year old daughter climbs into bed and says "Wake up Daddy!"

Its cheesy, yes. But your whole life changes when you have kids. I've done the 80 hour weeks. I've done the self employed thing. I've done the unemployed thing (7 month stint of that ends in 2 weeks - YAY!) In the end - its just a job - but its a job that provides for you and your family. I refuse to let a job own me again - I'll give it my all, but in the end my family comes first and I get up each day to spend another day with them. No matter how trying parenthood can be, the rewards are priceless - yeah I may not be so rosy when my kids are teenagers, but think about the posters statement "What happened to the novelty experienced during childhood and early adolescence? Life had purpose then, Things were moving forward."

Well, when you've got kids, stuff moves forward again because of them. What word will they learn next? What will peak their interest next (outdoor activity, computer game, reading stories with Mom & Dad, etc) You sit in wonder at how you and your wife 'created' that life and now get to help it grow. Its an amazing experience. And like all amazing things - it comes with sacrifices and only you cna judge if they're worth it.

Don't get me wrong - I love computers, they are my #1 hobby - hell I run my own little ISP for fun. My new job will probably be a blast since its in my preferred field and a cool work environment. I'm sure on days we have a new toy, er server, arrive I'll be at work @ 5AM the next day to break it open and tinker with it. But normally it is 9-5 5 days a week (unless somethign breaks :) ) But after that, its the kids and its worth every minute.

Mod me down as cheesy, but that's how I feel! It took me a while to realize that - believe it or not being unemployed helped. Its amazing what having your life pushed to the brink of collapse (ie bankruptcy, etc) will do to your outlook on life and where you can accentuate the positive.
--
Top Substitutions For 'Under God' In The Pledge Of Allegiance

Just remember... (4.00 / 4) (#18)
by kaatunut on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 08:48:53 AM EST

you're nothing but a pile of carbon, oxygen and various other types of matter in a peculiar arrangement. What you do has no greater universal significance than, say, that rock over there. While this means that there is no intrisinc purpose in anything, it also means there is no need for any purpose. You don't need to feel you're being inadequate or fear there's something wrong with you - there's no divine easter bunny to judge you, and when you die, instead of eternal torment you'll just go away.

All right, it's more of a philosophy suitable for angsty teens who don't want to convert, but I like it. Kinda reminds me of that Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted thing.

--
there's hole up in the sky from where the angels fall to sire children that grow up too tall, there's hole down in the ground where all the dead men go down purgatory's highways that gun their souls

The Existential Crisis (4.57 / 7) (#20)
by John Milton on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 09:37:12 AM EST

Well, I know what your talking about. There was a period in my life where I felt the same way. There's a simple way to get over it. Set a goal. It doesn't matter if you ever complete it. You'll feel better for just having a direction. Make sure that your goal will require you to create something. Humans are creators at heart. We get some kind of rush out of bringing new into existence.

Pick something that's nearly impossible. It'll be fun. If you're a programmer, set yourself the goal of creating your own operating system. Throw in lots of things that you've always wanted to see. If you're technically inclined, set yourself the goal to make something daring. Try combining a water boat and an airship. Work for charities. Be an idealist. Tilt at windmills. Try to reach the unreachable star. It doesn't matter if you succeed in life. It matters that you tried something that you thought you couldn't do. Maybe you'll find out you more capable than you thought.

My lifes goal is World Domination. I've got a long way to go, but I'm sure the people of earth will realise my qualifications. :)


"When we consider that woman are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should Treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit." -Elizabeth Cady Stanton


hmm, (3.00 / 1) (#24)
by mami on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 11:11:23 AM EST

You just gave me a good idea of pursueing a goal. I really can't allow you to head for World Domination. Thanks for providing me with something worthwhile to do. Fighting against John Milton's World Domination. Your qualifications are just not convincing enough. :-)

It's nice to get a smile out of K5 comments once in a while.

[ Parent ]
Re: hmm, (none / 0) (#38)
by danceswithcrows on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 07:44:31 PM EST

"I will rule the world! If a bunch of other bastards prevent me from ruling the world, I will blow up the world and rule the empty space where it used to be!" --Shark D., on a day when he was in a weird mood.

Ruling the world sounds nice, but the time spent quelling treason, squishing the fools who dared oppose you, and opening shopping malls adds up after a while. Far better to blackmail the heads of major world governments and pursue your goals under the cover of stealth.

Matt G (aka Dances With Crows) There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see
[ Parent ]

Aha, a rival (none / 0) (#34)
by Tatarigami on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 05:59:16 PM EST

What a co-incidence. I too believe I am uniquely qualified to be running this little sphere in space and am taking the necessary steps to correct the fact that I am not yet in that position.

:o)

Perhaps we should agree to thwart each others' every Machiavellian plot. You can judge a man by the quality of his enemies, you know.

[ Parent ]
No, no, no... (none / 0) (#40)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 10:05:03 PM EST

... people just don't know how to take over the world these days. 'Stopping each other's plots', what a rediculous idea. You are supposed to form a truce, team up, and decide to split the earth between you. That way you get to use the other guy as a minion. Just be sure to have a daggar ready for when your plans come through and it is time to divide up the world (and watch out for the daggar he will have for the same reason).



[ Parent ]

Competitive evil geniuses? (4.50 / 2) (#41)
by Tatarigami on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 10:23:08 PM EST

Nah, that's old school evil genius. I'm a modern evil genius. I recognise the value of testing my mettle against someone on my own level. I'm capable of realising the true benefits of having someone there to point out the flaws in my schemes. I'm --

[blinks in innocent surprise as a stilletto drops out of his sleeve and bounces on the carpet]

I have no idea how that got there.

[ Parent ]
Say,... (none / 0) (#66)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 03:44:48 AM EST

... duplicity, guile, and a good sense of humor. You've definite potential. After you get your lair, if you need an advisor, I've got some ideas. Hail Eris.



[ Parent ]

World Domination (none / 0) (#177)
by diskiller on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 09:18:10 PM EST

mmm.... World Domination.

I personally have a simliar goal. Not quite world domination. But simliar.

Email me sometime :).

D.

[ Parent ]
Take a walk (4.57 / 7) (#21)
by Skippy on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 09:44:22 AM EST

Whenever I get to feeling like this I take a walk. Preferably somewhere where there are few people and some nature. This doesn't necessarily mean out in the country. I live in a city and go to the park. I just don't use the paths.

Take your time walking, you're not GOING anywhere.You aren't headed towards a destination you are to enjoy the PROCESS of the wak. Walk for the sake of walking. You'll start to notice things. How nice the sound of running water is or that birdsong isn't annoying when it isn't waking you up. You'll see bugs and squirrels (even in the city) and plants and breathe almost fresh air.

I tend to think about how nice all those things are and they are all free. What makes it worth getting out of bed is simple enjoyments. If walking doesn't do it for you have dinner with a friend (homecooked is best) and enjoy the food and company. Make something (not on a computer) even if its some scribble art on your laser printer paper (the only paper most people have around now.)

<proselytize>Go get a copy of the Tao Te Ching. It helped me a lot. People have been asking this question for eons. Find out what people before have done to fight it.</proselytize>
# I am now finished talking out my ass about things that I am not qualified to discuss. #

Do I ever know what you mean... (none / 0) (#57)
by greenplato on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 01:24:26 AM EST

I had an awful bout of the blues not too long ago. On paper it looked like I was doing well for myself, but it felt like I was running on a treadmill. No matter how many miles I ran, the scenery just wasn't changing.

I started to read the eastern philosophies. I read about Buddah and Zen and Tao. I haven't found all the answers, but it has helped me greatly to see that I'm not the only person asking those questions.

At the same time I started walking, then hiking, and then backpacking, to find some solitude in my thoughts. It was my form of therapy, figuring out who I really am one step at a time.

The end result is that I have left my good/safe job in favor of returing back to school to learn about the things that hold my interest. I'm not studying something that pays as well as programming, but contentment will not come from a new car or a house.

[ Parent ]

I had a lot of people die in my family (4.16 / 6) (#26)
by mami on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 11:54:37 AM EST

and basically what I learned through it is that one REALLY shouldn't live completely alone. In addition I think one shouldn't work exclusively through online media.

That's one of the reasons, I decided not to pursue an education to become a professional programmer, work from home and live alone. Deadly combination, I think.

My guess the way to get away from depression is to get a dog, get a person to live with, may be kids too, get a job, where you actually talk in person to people. The rest will follow.

Other people who were depressed and somehow got out of it told me that some sense of pride in their own self discipline helped them too. The shame you feel when you let yourself down and the good feeling you get, if you fight against it through stubborn will power alone, no matter what.

The biggest problem with online communication I have is that it actually prolongs the state of depression and distracts from fighting against it. Online communciation fakes you into believing you find answers to your problems or questions you have. It's an addictive and seductive fallacy, I believe.

So, the day I am not commenting anymore on K5, will be the day where I am actually a happy camper doing something meaningful which makes my life a little bit more purposeful. Oh well, just wait and ya'll see how successful I am with that one....

Living alone (5.00 / 2) (#47)
by Your Mom on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 11:55:41 PM EST

I wholeheartedly agree with this... I just had a friend of mine commit suicide last week, and I'm convinced that it's because he lived alone. He was a great guy, smart, friendly in class, but quiet. He kept to himself, and went home alone each night, and eventually killed himeslf. Turns out that he was going through some pretty deep depression, but nobody knew and he felt like he was alone, because, well, he was most of the time. We'd just graduated from college, he had a great career ahead of him, a girfriend (1,000 miles away), and he didn't have to die...

--
"As far as I'm concerned, Osama bin Laden can eat a dick." -trhurler
[ Parent ]
indeed (4.50 / 2) (#75)
by jsebrech on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 08:11:51 AM EST

I live too alone at the moment (even when I'm still at home). Even now I'm postng to kuro5hin, which is yet another one of my lonely activities. So ,I sincerely believe being alone is not what I want to do for much longer. So, I'm really trying hard to find a girlfriend. Even though it's insanely difficult if you don't have much friends, and are not the type that does the typical going-out kind of things. Which seems to catalog me as your average geek.

Currently I'm studying computer science on a university level. But I'm really considering forgetting computer science as a profession (because most of what you can do for a job with a computer eventually starts to suck, ruining your wonder for computers), and instead going to study to become a plumber. And I'm not kidding. I don't need a lot of money, and plumbing pays nicely. Besides, you meet a lot of people, every situation is different, your brain doesn't need to coast to a stop at the end of the day, and there's ALWAYS work for a plumber. Besides, Mario is a plumber, so it must be cool to be one :) So, maybe I'll do that, depending on how my next series of exams go. I made this realisation after watching "Office Space", which is a very funny movie. So if you haven't seen that, go watch it.

Otherwise, what I've found that majorly helps in feeling less useless is living by a code of honour. Always trying to be a fresh breeze in other people's existance. Even if they don't notice it. Always hold open doors, even if people ignore you, and even if nobody ever holds open a door for you (which they don't, in my case). Thank the lady at the cash register of your local super market, after you've paid, and wish her a nice day, and mean it. Even when she's really, really ugly, and looks like she could be your grandma. You'll be surprised how easy it is to pleasantly surprise people who are used to being treated like a cog. The more selfless the act, the more wholesome I feel.

Also, start noticing things. Go stand on a busy streetcorner, and look around. Just stand there. You'll notice all kinds of interesting things about the people there. Try to learn something you can change in your life by watching how other people behave. Spending some quality time in nature is obviously also a good idea, but that's not always as easy to realise, because in some area's nature is pretty scarce.

Also, do exactly the opposite of what is considered normal. Wear a big hat. Don't eat for three days. I don't do enough of that kind of things, but it's fun, and unusual. Just don't do it in such a way that it amuses people, instead of scaring them off.

But still, even though I've changed some things in my life, it's not enough. I just think I'll have to go for the plumbing idea. Carrying my toolbox to work instead of my laptop somehow seems like such a cool thing to do.


[ Parent ]
yes, but (5.00 / 1) (#78)
by mami on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 10:18:17 AM EST

think about it, plumbing is really something which could get the help of some nice little computer programs. Imagine you could build some little device with would automagically clean the drains from soap scum and hair, triggered by a sensor who would then be programmed to release some Roto Rooter Drain Cleaner with hot water and some rotating wire brushes work in the drainage pipes to get the mess outa there and prevent clogging bathtubs, kitchen sinks and toilets.

I never had a guy who would do such stuff for me, so I am an expert in that. I would happily hire you to invent such a device and write a smart program to help me with that. :-)

Plumbing and programming can mix ! So I think you are on the right track in your career choices, indeed.

Oh, BTW, I learned to hold doors open, smile in elevators to strangers and feel always "fine" when asked how I am doing, just in the U.S.

Once in a while I have to flee the U.S. to somewhere, where I actually can say I feel lousy ( or something like I feel like in heaven) , make any face I want in elevators without upsetting strangers with my missing smiles, and hold doors only open to people, who have their hands full and can't open the doors themselves.

Hi, how are you doing today ?


[ Parent ]
Hallelujah (none / 0) (#142)
by SoulSeller13 on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 12:55:45 PM EST

"Otherwise, what I've found that majorly helps in feeling less useless is living by a code of honour. Always trying to be a fresh breeze in other people's existance. Even if they don't notice it. Always hold open doors, even if people ignore you, and even if nobody ever holds open a door for you (which they don't, in my case). Thank the lady at the cash register of your local super market, after you've paid, and wish her a nice day, and mean it. Even when she's really, really ugly, and looks like she could be your grandma. You'll be surprised how easy it is to pleasantly surprise people who are used to being treated like a cog. The more selfless the act, the more wholesome I feel. " Insightful. That's exactly the way I feel. If we all went out of our way to make things just a tiny bit easier/better for those around us, just imagine the rewards? Of course, in this culture, HOLDING A DOOR OPEN is TOO MUCH EFFORT for some people, just as those who'll make a purchase without so much as a word to the person they interact with. Sorry, I suppose I'm an idealist. But damnit, I like it. Commence flames....

[ Parent ]
Break the routine! (3.33 / 3) (#27)
by silent on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 12:22:37 PM EST

I've found that I tend to feel similar to the way you have described when I get stuck into a routine. I think anyone would feel depressed when they fall into such a rut. My suggestion would be break out of it, or at least try to. I don't recommend something so drastic as becoming a hermit but perhaps your love life needs a change.
--- silence is poetry
Pointless Games (none / 0) (#163)
by interiot on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 04:08:54 PM EST

If you really consider life to be pointless, then it's no different from a computer game. If so, do as the gamers do: when you get bored of playing one game, find another one with different rules, see if you can master that one.

From my observations, it's possible for a person to do this forever, as long as there are an endless supply of games.

[ Parent ]

Hey (4.66 / 15) (#28)
by skim123 on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 12:56:30 PM EST

I had a similar downtime in my life about a year ago. I had just graduated from college and moved to a new city where I had no family, friends, etc. I moved on a whim, figuring it would be a good test of my ability to adapt, as well as an exciting adventure.

Well, meeting people and making friends is hard enough when you don't know anyone, and harder when you're not the most social person and your idea of a good time is sitting at a computer by yourself! :-)

I went through a period where I felt really depressed, just wanted to go back home to the Midwest. If you could read some of the emails I sent close friends over those troubling months you'd get a glimpse into my despression. It wasn't so much, "I'm sad because I'm lonely," it was the whole thing, "I don't know what the purpose in life is, I worked hard through college and for what? etc., etc." A lot of the same sentiment you seem to be feeling. I contemplated running out into the forest and living off my own instincts (seriously), I considered selling everything I owned and buying a one way ticket to Europe and try my luck there.

More practically, I thought women might make me happier, so I managed to meet a couple of girls with low self-esteems who would let me do what I pleased, but that (not surprisingly) didn't help. I missed my old friends, my family. But I didn't want to go cowering back home, like I had failed here. I met another girl, fell in love with her, but the feelings were pretty one-sided, she dumped me after a couple of months. Down on my luck, I was this close to going home, just giving up, (granted, what in the world would I have done back home?) when I met the girl who I am now in a very serious, emotionally rewarding relationship with.

Ok, the point? Is there one? I dunno. I guess I'm just saying, "Stick with it, it will work out eventually." Just to share, here is a paragraph from an email I sent a close friend of mine when I was in the throws of my negative thinking:

There are times when I feel like I'm wasting my life, like I should be doing something, I should have some higher goal or purpose. These feelings have been present since the start of my senior year, but have intensified since moving out here. It's not that I'm looking for some "higher purpose," I'm not looking to feed the starving or spread the Gospel, it's just that I wake up and I say to myself, "OK, what am I going to accomplish today." And you know what? I can think of nothing. Quite literally nothing. (It's quite an odd feeling, being able to think of nothing. My brain is usually a bit hyperactive, always ticking, random thoughts shooting around incessantly... however when I ask myself what I wish to accomplish, complete cerebral silence. Not a peep from a remote corner of the brain; no random neuron firings; scary silence, an abyss of nothingness.) "Well," I say to myself, breaking the acute silence, "guess I'll go CENSORED," or "Guess I'll go CENSORED." Yes, those are fun activities and I enjoy both and they are both relaxing, but when I wake up tomorrow I face the same question I had the day before and, sadly, the answer is the same. "Off to CENSORED (again)."

I hope this helped a bit, at least I hope this didn't hurt. Just be strong, things will work themselves out. If you would like to read more of my emails or want to just talk, drop me a line.

Money is in some respects like fire; it is a very excellent servant but a terrible master.
PT Barnum


Thanks... (none / 0) (#49)
by Your Mom on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 12:08:10 AM EST

Shit man, even if it doesn' help the author, that sure helped me. I wouldn't call myself "in the depths of depression", but I'm in a new city, living w a friend that I went to school with, but he has a girlfriend back home (my sister- it's another story), and is content to come home, play with his computer and talk to Lauren on the phone...

If you don't mind my asking, where'd you meet this girl? I'm not much of a "go out drinking" kind of guy (which is what Newport seems to be hyped up about the most) and even less of a "pick a girl at a bar up" if ya know what I mean...

--
"As far as I'm concerned, Osama bin Laden can eat a dick." -trhurler
[ Parent ]
If you want to talk about it... (none / 0) (#92)
by skim123 on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 05:44:14 PM EST

Shoot me an email...

Money is in some respects like fire; it is a very excellent servant but a terrible master.
PT Barnum


[ Parent ]
Scary (none / 0) (#198)
by MicroBerto on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 10:48:29 AM EST

This is the single thing I fear most. Right now I'm a student, and in 4 or so years, I'll be graduated. Then I might move off and get a job somewhere, have no friends, and hardly any social outlets besides work and bars! That sounds scary, and the entire opposite of what happens here. I hope it all goes well, because I don't think a shiny new job is worth social misery.

Berto
- GAIM: MicroBerto
Bertoline - My comic strip
[ Parent ]
Escape! Run away, run away! (3.00 / 2) (#29)
by razzmataz on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 12:57:55 PM EST

You need a new job. I'm in a similar situation. I only look forward to the weekends right now, and dread Monday (I even dread Sunday night, because after that comes Monday morning!).

Let me ask you this, do feel dirty like you've sold out or something? If so, it's time to start making change.

I'll be quiet now, and stop trying to sound like some sort of expert guest appearing on Oprah.
-- I love the smell of fdisk in the morning...

get drunk. get laid. (3.14 / 7) (#30)
by rebelcool on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 04:20:52 PM EST

Thats about all you really need.

COG. Build your own community. Free, easy, powerful. Demo site

fucking deep, man. fucking deep. (5.00 / 3) (#31)
by Duke Machesne on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 04:33:00 PM EST

Get drunk, get laid. What then? I don't know, get married. Get married? I'm a thirty-year-old boy...

(for those who dig the reference)

__________________________________________________
arts schoolsweight loss
[ Parent ]

heh (none / 0) (#46)
by Ender Ryan on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 11:49:34 PM EST

You could always do like his dad and go around setting up "franchises". That sure would be different ; )


-
Exposing vast conspiracies! Experts at everything even outside our expertise! Liberators of the world from the oppression of the evil USian Empire!

We are Kuro5hin!


[ Parent ]

To give back... (3.54 / 11) (#32)
by K5er 16877 on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 05:00:01 PM EST

I am motivated to repay all of the good fortune I have been given in my life. I was one of the precious few, lucky in birth. I was born to an affluent, white, American family who valued education. I never lived with worry about whether my water was safe to drink. I never thought about my town being invaded by rebels. I never worried about a bomb going off at my school. When I was younger, I was lucky to dedicate my life to learning without regard to money. Less than one in fourty people is given that chance.

So, I am eternally grateful. And, as a consequence of my life, I have an obligation not to waste the chance I was given. I have an obligation to give back to society what it has invested in me. I have to make a difference. That is what motivates me.

Nice (none / 0) (#69)
by BodyWarmer on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 05:15:31 AM EST

I like that message ... Makes me think of putting something back into the world.

[ Parent ]
I don't. (3.33 / 3) (#33)
by haknich on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 05:09:50 PM EST

I don't get up in the morning, I'm already up from the previous night. I get up in the afternoon.

Aside from that, I get up in the morning because I'm too lazy to quite school to be lazy...er, something like that.



This too shall pass (4.33 / 3) (#35)
by Tatarigami on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 06:11:43 PM EST

The article of faith that gets me up on a bad day is the belief that things will get better -- maybe not today or tomorrow, but soon. But if I don't get up and give them a chance, it won't happen.

Another thing I do when I feel like I'm in a rut is clean. Seriously. I've made a ritual out of tearing up and throwing out my old bank statements and vaccuuming under the couch. As the clutter in my living room diminishes, so does the clutter in my subconscious. Or something. This only works when I don't think about it.

Sometimes I try to change my perspective. Yes, I'm a tiny, faceless cog in a huge machine, but my God what a grand and terrible machine it is. There's never been another one like it.

My hobbies help. I'm learning another language, so I'm growing and developing as a person, even if it's just in a small way. And there's a quiet sense of satisfaction to be had in telling outrageous lies and having people believe them. I found a forum with no particular dedicated topic that encourages posters to ham it up and act out their chosen character. I took on the persona of an evil clown. Being irresponsible is fun!

:o)

Language question... (none / 0) (#50)
by Your Mom on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 12:13:36 AM EST

Where are you learning a language? I'm seriously looking into getting back into speaking French, but outside of High School and College (both of which I've left behind) I'm clueless, and learning a language by myself is rather fruitless... I'm not so much looking for somewhere to take classes but a fourum in which to practise (seems as though the internet would be great for this typ of thing).

Thanks in advance...

--
"As far as I'm concerned, Osama bin Laden can eat a dick." -trhurler
[ Parent ]
IRC and Internet phones. (none / 0) (#54)
by crcerror on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 12:45:26 AM EST

Back in high school, when I was learning German, I used to go into the german channels on IRC. That helped a lot, it gave a written outlet for it. However, that didn't help with speaking German and pronunciation.

I didn't have broadband back then so the internet phones were crappy but if you've got broadband, I'm sure you can find some french folks on some of the voice chat systems out there. You can get the written and spoken aspects taken care of with the net.

[ Parent ]
Language answer (none / 0) (#55)
by Tatarigami on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 12:48:58 AM EST

I'm taking evening classes at a local university, but before I started, I took a few free lessons via a website I found through Yahoo. You don't really learn much beyond parrotting a few phrases that way, but it convinced me I could do this bilingual thing.

Besides, it's important to pick a language that's fun to speak. I'm not saying I chose Japanese just because it's an easy language to make puns in, but it helped me make the decision...

[ Parent ]
a better solution :) (none / 0) (#61)
by kimodo on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 01:55:46 AM EST

next time your feeling down and out give me a call, ill let you clean my house...that will make you eternally happy :)

[ Parent ]
You're half way there... (3.33 / 3) (#36)
by Sartori on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 07:12:44 PM EST

You've managed to diagnose your problem, and you can see the symptoms for yourself. You've listed all of the things wrong with your life as you see them. What now? Well, quite simply, try to fix them. Bear with me on this...

OK, starting at the top: unsatisfying work. Is the job itself unsatisfying, or are you unsatisfied where you are? If you hate the job itself, think of something you would like to do and work towards it. Otherwise, try moving to another company, department, whatever.

Social life leaving a huge gaping void? Is it because you are lonely, or do you spend your time in ways you don't enjoy? Either way, you should think of something you'd like to try. If you can't think of anything, find a list of clubs or societies and pick one at random to join. Meet different people, do different things. Live for your own sake - life will lose its novelty if you don't work hard to try and keep the novelty there...
--
Sartori
"What is now real was once only imagined..."

You wouldn't happen to be a BeOS user? (1.83 / 6) (#37)
by smallstepforman on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 07:34:17 PM EST

<title says it all>

Why the low ratings? (none / 0) (#91)
by Arkady on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 05:04:25 PM EST

As a BeOS user myself, I thought this was a funny comment on the trials and tribulations of using that particular OS, especially over the past year. Culminating with the sale to Palm, Be has generally abused its users pretty heavily lately, and it fits with the tone of the article.

So, as I thought it was a funny comment, I'm surios about the low ratings it's gotten.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
Probably... (none / 0) (#151)
by Elkor on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 02:24:09 PM EST

because it is too much of an inside joke?

To those not BeOS users, it looks like a slam on BeOS, which isn't polite?

Just hypothesizing.

Regards,
Elkor


"I won't tell you how to love God if you don't tell me how to love myself."
-Margo Eve
[ Parent ]
Simply because I'm not ready (4.70 / 10) (#39)
by entranced on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 08:48:54 PM EST

to call it quits just yet.

I do what I do to pay for the things I need to survive. It beats growing my own food and building my own shelter and electricity.

Evolution provides purpose in my life. I don't feel like I'm finished evolving just yet. I have dozens of books I want to read before I kick the bucket. Lots of games to play and replay. I want to help code some useful programs for the community. I want to find a girl (fat chance, but it would be a bonus). I want to [maybe] have a kid. I want to see how bad this society gets and point and laugh. I want to try all the drugs that I haven't had the chance to yet. I want to enjoy the beauty of life. For now I'm not bored of life.

What happened to the novelty experienced during childhood and early adolescence? Life had purpose then, Things were moving forward.

I think the difference is you didn't question the normal life when you were that age. If you didn't question the normal life as an adult, you would simply fall into the rat race + retire mentality, preferably with kids somewhere along the way. It's good that you are asking yourself questions, that's how you will find answers.

I think all there is in life is the survival of the human race. Absolutely nothing else. Of course I don't particularly care about that so I just worry about enjoying myself and doing what I want to do.

It feels like something that could be filled by quiting my desk job to go out deep in to the woods and living like a savage. Hunting wild animals, using nothing but my cunning and opposible digits, then smearing their warm blood over my naked body while I dance around the campfire. It's not a good idea to burn bridges though. "Wouldn't be prudent."

I just came out of what you are going through [2 weeks ago]. And I was thinking exactly the same as you were in the above paragraph. Well fuck prudent. I quit my job of 2 years, sold/gave away all my possessions, and took off for 6 months on a remote beach in Mexico. My plan was to figure out what I wanted to do, and if I didn't find a better solution, I was gonna move to a remote Pacific island and disappear in some tribe. After only a month of doing almost nothing but thinking, reading, and taking notes, everything came together and I had figured it all out. The solution [for me] was to scrap the notion of working a full-time job, and only work enough to cover my minimal expenses, which translates to about 2-3 months of work per year. I figured out exactly what I need to be happy: computer, net, music, games, drugs, food, shelter. Everything else is a waste and I am uninterested in, which includes TV, a car, furniture, family, regular irl friends (I'm an introvert so shoot me!), and all kinds of other shit. I'm happiest with the least possible material possessions. It feels so great to have just a backpack of stuff, you feel truly free. Of course until computers get smaller I can't be fully free...

Are psychedelic drugs the answer?

I used to think they were, but I think they can't be _the_ answer, they can only be a part of the answer, at least for me. A few different things in moderation. Code for a while, then read philosophy until my eyes hurt, then play games till I'm sick of it, then sleep. Once in a while I'll ingest something just to shake everything up, or when I just need a change of scenery.

My advice to you... Fuck prudent.


"You have not converted a man because you have silenced him." ~John Morley

sounds good but . . . (3.00 / 3) (#85)
by The Great Satan on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 01:03:53 PM EST

"The solution [for me] was to scrap the notion of working a full-time job, and only work enough to cover my minimal expenses, which translates to about 2-3 months of work per year."

All of which is fine until junior enters into the equation. Have you been neutered?
Check out my comic at www.shizit.net/alpha. Or take care of your post hardcore music needs at www.shizit.net. Or ignore this lame self-promotional spam.
[ Parent ]
I agree (4.00 / 1) (#89)
by entranced on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 03:31:13 PM EST

When you add junior to the equation, you're pretty much forced into the normal 9 to 5 life for about 25 years, which approaches the retiring date. I guess the point is to know what you are getting yourself into should you choose this path.

For now I'm not really interested in having a kid, but I definitely haven't discarded the eventual possibility. I would have to totally rethink my lifestyle.


"You have not converted a man because you have silenced him." ~John Morley
[ Parent ]

kids (none / 0) (#207)
by The Great Satan on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 09:36:31 PM EST

"When you add junior to the equation, you're pretty much forced into the normal 9 to 5 life for about 25 years, which approaches the retiring date."

Gah!!

Maybe I'll get myself neutered.
Check out my comic at www.shizit.net/alpha. Or take care of your post hardcore music needs at www.shizit.net. Or ignore this lame self-promotional spam.
[ Parent ]
care to join me? (3.33 / 3) (#42)
by kimodo on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 10:29:58 PM EST

i have long felt the same way you do. Then i saw a movie called "the beach" yes i know, most people say it was a terrible movie. But i liked it. It inspired me. Anyway, in about 2 months i am leaving on a journey. A journey with no particular goal...living the backpacker lifestyle. Looking for a lifestyle that doesnt so closely resemble my own, or anyone elses for that matter. Something more exciting, and dare i say it...something more dangerous. Wish me luck. I live in Baltimore, Maryland now...first stop london..from there...who knows...but i hope to end up in thailand or austrailia. Anyway, I hope my journey fills the void within me, the same void you are seeking to fill. If it does, Ill let you know. Maybe you could join me when i find my utopia.

Check out the book (none / 0) (#56)
by greenplato on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 01:06:55 AM EST

You are doing yourself a disservice if you have not read the book that inspired the movie. It's not too rare for me to skip sleep in favor of a good book, but I read The Beach two nights in a row.

I stay up all night and read it in one sitting, but was left with so many questions that I re-read it. Twice in 48 hours; it's a one of a kind book for me.

Obligatory link to amazon.

[ Parent ]

did... (none / 0) (#60)
by kimodo on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 01:53:16 AM EST

i read it...loved it. just mentioned the movie because most people have seen it, so they could relate to my post.

[ Parent ]
Whoa flashback... (none / 0) (#63)
by entranced on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 03:14:47 AM EST

This was exactly like me 6 months ago.

I loved the movie as well, and it planted a seed in the back of my mind when I first saw it. Especially the scene where he goes back to town to get provisions, and everything seems crazy.

Eventually I did end up going to Thailand for 3 weeks early this year, and that in turn led to my drastic life change 4 months later, chronicled 1 post above/below yours.

And I agree with greenplato, the book was excellent. Incidently, I read the book while in Thailand. :-P

Have fun and I hope you find what you are looking for!


"You have not converted a man because you have silenced him." ~John Morley
[ Parent ]

Good luck! (none / 0) (#71)
by twodot72 on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 07:28:20 AM EST

I hope you find what you are looking for.

I've been thinking about doing something like this myself, but I don't know if, when or how it will happen. Reading about people who actually manage to escape the shackles of expectations and "musts" society thrusts upon you inspires me.

I think I'm too well of in my current situation to follow in your footsteps right now, but every time I hear about someone who do take the time and expense to travel and explore the world and themselves, the urge to do so myself if renewed. I think at some point I will be "pushed over the edge" and take action. Maybe I'll see you then.

[ Parent ]

Time to Find Another Life (3.75 / 4) (#43)
by AArthur on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 10:52:24 PM EST

Maybe it's time to go out searching for what you really want to do, and not what makes you the most amount of money in the least amount of time.

Money is, well money. It really doesn't buy you much (besides a gallon of gas and a few other things).

Maybe you should try to be young again. Get a motorcycle. Drive around with flowers in your hair. Give people peace signs.

Or if you have interests, you've never tried, maybe you should invest some money, and take some classes at your local community college.

Andrew B. Arthur | aarthur@imaclinux.net | http://hvcc.edu/~aa310264

Get a motorcycle. (none / 0) (#88)
by Waldo on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 02:37:41 PM EST

Get a motorcycle.

This is why I'm getting one this very weekend. :) Excellent advice, sir.

-Waldo

[ Parent ]

to quote Tool from the song Fourty-Six & 2... (3.00 / 1) (#44)
by mmcc on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 11:02:25 PM EST


I choose to live and to
Lie, kill and give and to
Die, learn and love and to
Do what it takes to step through.

The whole thing is here.



Why I get out of bed? Here's why: (4.12 / 8) (#45)
by DangerGrrl on Sat Aug 25, 2001 at 11:34:12 PM EST

Because I have a purpose. There is a reason I am here. I have looked into the face of death with the thanks of some nice blue sleepy pills (a bottle of Klonopin) and she said I have something I need to do here. I got a second chance that I will not squander.

I have to believe in higher destiny. I have to believe that I will change the world, even if I do it a mind at a time. I have to believe that things like heroic quests and true love. I have to believe... or I will get dragged down into this banal get-your-over-priced-caffinated-beverage-before-going-to-a-job-you-loath-existance.

I don't like who I am when I stop seeing the magick in simple things. When is the last time you paused to watch a sunset? Tonights was absolutely glorious, and left me breathless. I think I actually started to tear up in gazing upon its magnificence. It's so easy to get caught up in mundane details, lines of code, and deadlines that we forget that there is a whole fucking WORLD away from our cubicals.

Why do I get out of bed in the morning? Because if I don't, I will die... and I am NOT done yet. I will not go gently into that goodnight...
And neither should you.

reminds me of a quote... (4.00 / 1) (#51)
by Particleman on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 12:19:27 AM EST

... from one of my favorite books.

"Here is a test to see if your mission on earth is finished: If you're alive, it isn't."

-Richard Bach, in Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah



---
Remove the obvious to respond by e-mail.
[ Parent ]
No offense, but . . . (none / 0) (#84)
by The Great Satan on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 12:52:30 PM EST

Haven't I seen these memes before?
Check out my comic at www.shizit.net/alpha. Or take care of your post hardcore music needs at www.shizit.net. Or ignore this lame self-promotional spam.
[ Parent ]
Ummm (none / 0) (#86)
by DangerGrrl on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 01:40:50 PM EST

Not knowing what a 'memes' is, I couldn't tell you.

[ Parent ]
Dictionary.com (none / 0) (#150)
by Elkor on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 02:22:59 PM EST

memes:
A unit of cultural information, such as a cultural practice or idea, that is transmitted verbally or by repeated action from one mind to another.


"I won't tell you how to love God if you don't tell me how to love myself."
-Margo Eve
[ Parent ]
memetic theory (none / 0) (#205)
by The Great Satan on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 09:27:59 PM EST

Sorry. I see so many references to memetic theory on Slashdot I figured it was common knowledge among the geek set.

"Memetics is the study of ideas and concepts viewed as "living" organisms, capable of reproduction and evolution in an "Ideosphere" (similar to the Biosphere) consisting of the collective of human minds. Memes reproduce by spreading to new hosts, who will spread them further (typical examples are jokes, catchphrases or politicial ideas)."

In short, some of these little buggers reproduce better and more often than others, and these super-successful memes (otherwise known as cliches?) seem to have made a fine staging area out of your Ideosphere (I'm trying to talk my way out of the beating I've earned).

The quote comes from this site:

http://aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Memetics/

It ain't the best site, but it's the first I found. See Google if you want more.
Check out my comic at www.shizit.net/alpha. Or take care of your post hardcore music needs at www.shizit.net. Or ignore this lame self-promotional spam.
[ Parent ]
words... (3.00 / 2) (#48)
by birdsong on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 12:00:43 AM EST

"So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past." - F. Scott Fitzgerald

why? (3.66 / 3) (#52)
by Ender Ryan on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 12:25:29 AM EST

some random thoughts...

If you are feeling like this and always asking yourself "why?", maybe you need to ask yourself a different question. Ask yourself, "why not?"

All the stupid things people do in life, go try one of two of them, maybe then you'll see "why".

All there really is to life is our experiences. Some of them we will hate, and some we will love. Most will have no rational meaning whatsoever, so stop trying to find one.

Just go start trying new things, eventually, I promise, one of those things will cause you to stop asking why. It won't be an answer, though, but it will make the question seem silly, like everything else.

I grow bored of this world right now, so I will retire to another world inside one of those wonderful things they call books. Good night(or day, whatever timezone you're in...).


-
Exposing vast conspiracies! Experts at everything even outside our expertise! Liberators of the world from the oppression of the evil USian Empire!

We are Kuro5hin!


There is no purpose (3.50 / 6) (#53)
by mingTmerciless on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 12:35:25 AM EST

Look at a rock. What is it's Purpose? It doesn't have one, and neither do you.

If you need a Purpose in life, I suggest either suicide or zealotry (they're often the same).

Everything else is just a pile of scrap metal. You can either make something interesting out of it, or let it slowly rust into the dirt.

Personally, I've decided to let everything slowly slide into oblivion. Alcohol and narcotics are great for that. You might choose differently.

How imponderably sad (none / 0) (#80)
by Wah on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 10:44:40 AM EST

Look at a rock. What is it's Purpose?

To be a rock. Or to not be a rock. One of those answers makes sense, why have you picked the other one?
--
Information wants to be free, wouldn't you? | Parent ]

This judgemental bullshit is pissing me off (none / 0) (#140)
by Duke Machesne on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 12:27:44 PM EST

Look at a rock. What is it's Purpose?

To be a rock. Or to not be a rock. One of those answers makes sense, why have you picked the other one?

Why must all these holier-than-thou Quantum-Brain I'm-better-because-I'm-rational I'm-better-because-I-believe I'm-better-because-I-read-a-book I'm-better-because-I-eat-cabbage-and-shit-very-nicely nutjobs keep telling everyone how much they pity them?

The guy didn't say the rock's purpose was to "not be a rock", and he didn't say it's purpose was to "be a rock".

He said the rock had no purpose. None.

It's not sad, it's pretty fucking reasonable. In fact, I haven't heard anyone in this discussion give any reason why anything should have a purpose. I think the most obnoxious fuckers ever born to this poor, undeserving planet are the droves and droves and fucking legions of assholes always trying to help everyone else to the True Enlightenment they've found through their Infinite Wisdom. It's almost as bad as just plain trying to control people.

Do you even realize why you do it? Do you have any fucking clue that the odds are that you feel the need to "share" this Enlightened Wisdom with everyone else because you're just too insecure to admit that you haven't got it and neither has anyone else?

__________________________________________________
arts schoolsweight loss
[ Parent ]

LOL (none / 0) (#169)
by Wah on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 05:53:08 PM EST

Howdy.

The guy didn't say the rock's purpose was to "not be a rock", and he didn't say it's purpose was to "be a rock".

Actually, if you look at the part I snipped, he asked, "What is the rock's purpose?"

To be a rock is the simple Shakespearean answer. If I give the rock motion, it can become a weapon. If I sit on the rock, it becomes a chair (hi Plato). If I carve the rock, it can become beauty. Which is to say, without any motion an object would have no "purpose".

Now you'll probably hate this part, but the only way the rock can have no purpose is to have no movement. Since this now includes a fourth dimension of Time (read: Einstein), the only way it could stop moving in that sense is to take up all the energy in the Universe and move as light. This is highly unlikely, therefore the rock always has a purpose (to be a rock), even without outside influence.

In fact, I haven't heard anyone in this discussion give any reason why anything should have a purpose.

Well now you have, and I used quantum theory to prove it. So there. Argue that if you wish, but leave the personal attacks out of it.

Do you even realize why you do it?

Because I get out of bed in the morning?
--
Information wants to be free, wouldn't you? | Parent ]

Douche (none / 0) (#172)
by Duke Machesne on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 06:30:42 PM EST

Actually, if you look at the part I snipped, he asked, "What is the rock's purpose?"
For which you drew a false dichotomy that excluded his answer.
If I sit on the rock, it becomes a chair (hi Plato). If I carve the rock, it can become beauty. Which is to say, without any motion an object would have no "purpose".
The chair, the beauty, and the purpose cannot be demonstrated to exist outside of your mind. You invented them, and you get to keep them. In other words, I reject your assumption that movement designates purpose. As a matter of fact, it seems to me that you've quite properly demonstrated how scientifically meaningless a spook word like "purpose" actually is.

For example, if you're sitting on the rock and a snake has made his home underneath it, whereas you claimed that the rock had "become a chair", the snake might claim to the contrary that the rock had "become a shelter". Has the rock actually "become" a chair? A shelter? Both? Well, if we were to study the rock scientifically, it's fairly likely we'd find no quantitative change. So what happened to the rock? Some snake crawled underneath and went to sleep and some putz climbed on top and called it a chair.

Now you'll probably hate this part, but the only way the rock can have no purpose is to have no movement. Since this now includes a fourth dimension of Time (read: Einstein), the only way it could stop moving in that sense is to take up all the energy in the Universe and move as light. This is highly unlikely, therefore the rock always has a purpose (to be a rock), even without outside influence....Well now you have, and I used quantum theory to prove it. So there. Argue that if you wish, but leave the personal attacks out of it.
Gee, you must be a real scholar. You spell Time with a capital 'T' and bid me read Einstein.

Firstly, your premise is meaningless. Try to design an empirical test for the "purpose" of an object. Secondly, I don't know who you think you're impressing throwing around "quantum theory", but it sure seems like you know nothing about it. Nothing you wrote has anything to do with quantum theory. You tried to use relativity, and it might have worked, too, if it hadn't been for those darn kids.

Now stop telling people they're "imponderably sad".

And you may as well stop trying to offer advice regarding "Quantum Philosophy" as well, as you obviously don't know much about that either.

__________________________________________________
arts schoolsweight loss
[ Parent ]

Laughing harder (none / 0) (#179)
by Wah on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 09:37:47 PM EST

As a matter of fact, it seems to me that you've quite properly demonstrated how scientifically meaningless a spook word like "purpose" actually is.

I don't think I've called what I was doing science. If I call it philosophy does that help, err, did it?

And if you reject the entire notion of the word "purpose" this won't go anywhere. And your statement that "a rock has no purpose" is even meaningless to you. I can't argue against nihilism, so tell me now if that's what you got, and I'll stop.

For example, if you're sitting on the rock and a snake has made his home underneath it, whereas you claimed that the rock had "become a chair", the snake might claim to the contrary that the rock had "become a shelter".

Excellent, you've uncovered the concept of perspective. Or maybe we should call it relativity, nah, I think that's taken.

Sorry about that (read: Einstein) part. I didn't mean it might help if you pick up a book. Only that he was the one who formulated that idea (at least the way the information came to me). I should have stuck with the "hi Plato" type of reference, that one didn't seem to bother you as much.

if it hadn't been for those darn kids.

Is this the Scooby Doo argument? Powerful stuff, Duke, no wait, it's Old Man Whithers!!

This conversation got off to such a poor start, I'm not sure we can make much of it. Reply to this if you wish, I'm taking it to my diary (it's just noise now).
--
Information wants to be free, wouldn't you? | Parent ]

haha (none / 0) (#201)
by Duke Machesne on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 01:19:05 PM EST

Boy, you're a slippery little fucker, aren't you?

So tell me, do you always duck the issue as soon as your bullshit intellectuality is challenged?

And if you reject the entire notion of the word "purpose" this won't go anywhere. And your statement that "a rock has no purpose" is even meaningless to you. I can't argue against nihilism, so tell me now if that's what you got, and I'll stop.
I never said that a rock had no purpose. The original poster, mingTmerciless (remember, the guy you said was imponderably sad because he's got a taste for liquor?), said that. I said you were an idiot for having had the nerve to tell him his answer was not only wrong, but wasn't even an option.

My only statement about the "purpose" of a rock has been (and still is) that you can either (a) design an empirical experiment to measure "purpose" or (b) concede that while something which can be called purpose may exist, you have no fucking clue what it might be and are completely unqualified to act as judge of anyone else's evaluation (which, you'll note, you took it upon yourself to do anyway). You're the "Quantum Philosopher", I'd have thought you would be able to grasp that.

What's more, you go on to summon a god you call "Quantum Theory" (without ever having seen his face, no less!) Now, to my tiny little mind, that indicates (however vaguely, I know) that you are wont to talk science. But--uh-oh!--it turns out you didn't know anything about the science, you were just tossing around daunting-sounding words like a sixth-grader trying to show off at a spelling bee (can you spell "antidisestablishmentarianism"?) So I go to the trouble of explaining psychological relativity versus empirical data and again you wipe the snot from your nose and cry out, "I knew that!" And maybe you did, but you see, you've missed the point. You even conveniently forgot to quote the part that pertained to your particular problem (the one about being ignorant), I guess because in leui of actually reading you prefer to just to plug the problems into your "philosophical quantum computer" and let the answer "just pop out" (a lot like vomiting, yes?)

The critical point, dear boy, was the bit you ignored, and I know you need to see it a few times to let it seep in, so I'll quote it twice here. "If we were to study the rock scientifically, it's fairly likely we'd find no quantitative change." Very interesting, yes? But what could this mean? Let's ask again!

...if we were to study the rock scientifically, it's fairly likely we'd find no quantitative change. So what happened to the rock? Some snake crawled underneath and went to sleep and some putz climbed on top and called it a chair.
And guess which putz insisted it had become a chair? Righteo! Very good, dear boy, it was an egotistical child named Wah. He even went so far as to say that he had used "quantum theory" to "prove" that his little rock really "was" a chair. Oh, but science is slippery, isn't it, little man? After all, "I don't think I've called what I was doing science." Isn't that right?

But then again, how often does someone let me basically call them a douchebag, a pompous ass, and a blowhard for days on end and keep laughing right along with me the whole time?

__________________________________________________
arts schoolsweight loss
[ Parent ]

hehe (none / 0) (#215)
by Wah on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 03:19:15 PM EST

This is fun, please don't stop now.

Boy, you're a slippery little fucker, aren't you?

I'm actually kind of big, and yes, when wet I do tend to slide around.

So tell me, do you always duck the issue as soon as your bullshit intellectuality is challenged?

Based on that assumption, it would seem prudent. Spear catching has never really caught on as an international sport.

I never said that a rock had no purpose. The original poster, mingTmerciless (remember, the guy you said was imponderably sad because he's got a taste for liquor?), said that.

Yes, he did, then he followed it up with the obvious conclusion that "neither do you." That's the point I'm arguing. Which, BTW, he allowed for in his own words with "You can either make something interesting out of it...".

I said you were an idiot for having had the nerve to tell him his answer was not only wrong, but wasn't even an option.

Actually, it is an option, just a poor one, IMVHO (happy now?). Since it quite simply follows that then the point to life becomes something along the lines of Personally, I've decided to let everything slowly slide into oblivion. Alcohol and narcotics are great for that. You might choose differently. And since that didn't make sense to me, I asked him, why he had made that choice. Check the thread, that's the part where you jump in screaming profanities. Now, back to that rock.

(a) design an empirical experiment to measure "purpose".

Which is rather impossible to do through text, so I went with some simple mind games. Giving various examples how outside action and purpose are combined. I've challenged you now three times to come up with another way to define the word (which at m-w.com #2 is "an action in course of execution"). This is where the, uh, stuff comes in, and basically I'm saying that because all matter moves through time, this movement is enough to give it purpose, even if that purpose is just to be. The only way something could have no purpose is to be nothing, and since we start with a rock, we have a reason to conclude purpose.

[scanning for next question amid senseless namecalling...]

(can you spell "antidisestablishmentarianism"?)

Let's see. A-N-T-I-D-E, arrg!! Nope, sorry.

(a lot like vomiting, yes?)

Yes, quite. Thanks for helping me clean some of it up.

"If we were to study the rock scientifically, it's fairly likely we'd find no quantitative change."

Maybe you should expand on that "scientifically". Because unless you do it really fast, the rock has moved through time (no caps, just for you). And if you did it that fast, you wouldn't find a rock.

What's more, you go on to summon a god you call "Quantum Theory" (without ever having seen his face, no less!)

See my previous comment. Wow, it's funny, but on this page, it seems to say that the concept I was just using is based on "the most fundamental equation of quantum mechanics."

Very good, dear boy, it was an egotistical child named Wah.

Actually, the name's Roy. My nick is just a possible pronounciation based on latitude.

But then again, how often does someone let me basically call them a douchebag, a pompous ass, and a blowhard for days on end and keep laughing right along with me the whole time?

Because it's friggin' hilarious? Actually, you are helping me more than you probably want to, you can check my most recent diary entry for why that may be.
--
Information wants to be free, wouldn't you? | Parent ]

Faith (2.77 / 9) (#58)
by orbi on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 01:46:46 AM EST

why do I feel a huge gaping void in me?

You're going through a pain that billions of people face everyday, and have been for millenia. I know how it feels, it almost drove me nuts. People I know have been driven nuts by it, and others have found the solution.

The only way to fill this void and find satisfaction is through the loving relationship that God has offered us through Jesus Christ. I suggest that you ask one of your Christian friends (everyone has one, right?) about it.

I often find relief from the pains of living by reading the Bible. Here are some words from the prophet Jeremiah that I really like (Jeremiah 29:11-13):

11"For I know the plans I have for you," says the LORD. "They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope. 12In those days when you pray, I will listen. 13If you look for me in earnest, you will find me when you seek me."

euwww....religious troll (1.44 / 9) (#59)
by kimodo on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 01:52:07 AM EST

religion is the bottom of the barrell when it comes to spam....

[ Parent ]
Speaking of trolls... Was: euwww....religious tro (2.00 / 2) (#94)
by Shovas on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 06:26:24 PM EST

Greetings,

Kimodo:
You assume to much of your own opinions. The poster asked for suggestions to help them out, this is a valid suggestion.

Get off your high horse, kill that hurd mentality so ingrained in your head, pull up a book or two and learn something instead of spouting off at the tap on things you only know about through other's opinions.

Posts like this disgust me and put a bad name on kuro5hin.

Go back to slashdot, please.

Farewell,

---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
No really, you are a troll (none / 0) (#116)
by NDPTAL85 on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 12:57:12 AM EST

You are a troll. You begin every post with "Greetings". Every post you make involves some sort of religious reference. You are indeed a troll and a religious troll is a troll of the worst kind. Please "pray" that you can stop posting.

[ Parent ]
re: No really, you are a troll (none / 0) (#118)
by Shovas on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 01:21:23 AM EST

Greetings,

You have a problem with my posting style? That is truly sad. I might make the same comments of your posting style, and that would be equally ludicrous.

I am no troll. I will put in a good word where I can. For those who wish to bring down others because they do not share the same beliefs, I pity them.

Farewell,
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
why does the pope need a bullet proof car? (none / 0) (#133)
by alprazolam on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 11:38:37 AM EST

shouldn't god stop the bullets?

[ Parent ]
I'm reminded of a joke... (none / 0) (#155)
by Elkor on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 02:40:44 PM EST

A man is trapped on an island that is sinking.

A man comes by in a boat and says "Get In! let's get out of here!"

The island man says "No, God will save me."

Twice more men come by in boats and are similarly rebuffed as the island gets lower and lower into the water.

The man drowns, of course, and when he arrives at Heaven he confronts God. "Why didn't you save me?" he said.

God looks at him. "Three times I sent someone to you in a boat. Why didn't YOU get in?"

I am sure the Pope has faith in God's ability to make the bullet proof glass stop the bullets.

Regards,
Elkor


"I won't tell you how to love God if you don't tell me how to love myself."
-Margo Eve
[ Parent ]
pope sucks (5.00 / 1) (#160)
by alprazolam on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 03:12:14 PM EST

he should have superpowers, be able to stop bullets and shit. he's just old and crappy. what the world needs is a genetically altered pope who kicks ass, like wolverine.

[ Parent ]
i am the pope... (5.00 / 1) (#181)
by kimodo on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 10:47:18 PM EST

why is he in any way better then the other morons who believe the story about the invisible man in the sky? what makes him more holy than me? i bet you any amount you want to put up that he goes home at night, jacks off, and drinks two or three beers. well he is in italy..so maybe wine.

[ Parent ]
re: why does the pope need a bullet proof car? (none / 0) (#164)
by Shovas on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 04:24:26 PM EST

Greetings,

Why did God let Jesus die on the cross? Shouldn't he have sent angel's to relieve him and cease his pain? In this specific case, it was his plan and Jesus was willing.

To your point, however: These things occur because (1) sin is in the world, (2) he has given us brains to create solutions for ourselves, and (3) his interference would mean the lack of free will on the part of the assassin, in this case. There are a myriad of other reasons too, I'm sure.

When it comes right down to it, though, it is our choice to do what we will; good or bad.

Farewell,
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
hard to consider... (none / 0) (#180)
by kimodo on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 10:44:57 PM EST

its hard to even consider the opinion of someone who can truly believe that there is an invisible man in the sky. how childish is that? religion is a truly sad part of society. did anyone ever notice how all of these bible thumpers always sound like they're selling something? priests, used car salesman....who can spot the difference. go back to church...and tell god i want my money.

[ Parent ]
I understand, but remember one thing... (none / 0) (#195)
by Shovas on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 10:14:56 AM EST

Greetings,

While you may think of religion as bs, it is someone's heartfelt belief and they should be allowed to voice that without negativity towards them, so long as they're not being overly intrusive. I certainly don't consider replying to a story, in a supposed open discussion forum, intrusive, as suggestions were exactly what the story poster wanted.

Remember the Golden Rule. It may be religion-based, but I'm sure you can agree it benefits everyone no matter what they believe. Voice your opinions in a constructive manner, not in a belittling fashion.

And, by the way, you can tell the difference between a priest and a huckster by the reason a priest(any religious person) does so for your own goodwill and 'should' require nothing in return, whereas a huckster will be profiting from you. :)

Farewell,
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
so ... (3.33 / 3) (#77)
by jsebrech on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 08:55:19 AM EST

Basically, your counsel is what?

Be happy with your current life because God wants it to be like it is? Sorry, but God must have better things in mind than the lives I see myself, and lot of people around me leading.

Or do you mean that a christian set of values will pull you through? Why do you have to be christian for that, then? I live by a christian set of morals and values, for the most part (because some of the stuff is so obviously wrong), and yet I don't read the bible, and I don't go to church.

What mirth is there to be found in being a christian? I officially am one, and I had a period where I read the bible. But all I found in there where nice stories (really, there are nice bedtime stories for your kids in the bible), some useful values, and a whole lot of self-delusion.


[ Parent ]
re: so ... (2.00 / 1) (#93)
by Shovas on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 06:13:42 PM EST

Greetings,

You completely miss the point and you also do not seem to comprehend the subject matter, which may lead you reflect on exactly why you strayed from your personal relationship with Jesus. Yes, the way I'm wording this _does_ sound like a bad pitch from a a Jehovah's Witness' group, but only because their actions and beliefs are intrusive and have received a very negative reputation throughout their history. This does not negate the fact that Christianity, no matter what major Churches would have you believe, is a relationship based religion, not an institution based one.

What the author of the comment was trying to convey is that only through God are you truly able to find meaning, purpose and solace in this life. True, good times, friends, family, the American Dream can ride you through this life leaving little time to think about your real questions/problems, but everyone, everywhere, still asks the same prime questions.

Your misconceptions of the author's intent--that your 'values', attributed to Christians, will pull you through--reveal your lack of reading of the comment and/or your lack of study regarding what Christianity is _really_ about.

And, of course, you will never find the truth in your belief(as you say you are "officially" a Christian), if you do not take God seriously, as a real being who can take all your problems and give you peace. The morals and values of the Christian religion are simply rules to live by to state in accordance with your beliefs. The morals and values, themself, are not the religion. In Christianity, your relationship with God is _all_ that matters.

Farewell,


---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
I hate to flame a believer (4.66 / 3) (#90)
by Wah on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 03:53:27 PM EST

but..this snippet.

The only way...

Followed by the rest is what gives many "Christians" a resounding belief in the death penalty.

"If you look for me in earnest, you will find me when you seek me."

But the only way to get there is through Christ? What utter crap. Sorry, but that's the only way you could get there. The path to the summit of a mountain matters little, and yours even less when you start to roll boulders down all the ones you didn't take.
--
Information wants to be free, wouldn't you? | Parent ]

re: I hate to flame a believer (2.00 / 1) (#95)
by Shovas on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 06:42:34 PM EST

Greetings,

Beware your arrogance. Assuming a god decided one way to "rescue", you should not be so proud to think your, and your culture's perceptions, reflect accurately upon an omnipotent being, who has infinitely greater understanding of his creation than yourself.

Farewell,
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
Huh? (none / 0) (#106)
by Wah on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 10:48:42 PM EST

Is this yours?

Few things bother this author more than assumptions, made by the publishers of works, which present information or content as if it were on a higher plain, so to speak, or, perhaps, from a more visionary stance.

And the accompanying two pages of self-quotes.

You have such a short comment history, I had to check your link to see if you are a nutball. And what is, "my culture," so to speak? And we've got 5 times the number of fingers as ears, which would be 10x our mouths number, so maybe that explains your confusion (i.e. yup, it's the keyboard.)
--
Information wants to be free, wouldn't you? | Parent ]

re: Huh? (none / 0) (#112)
by Shovas on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 11:58:50 PM EST

Greetings,

Yes, that quote is from one of my rants and ravings. :) That's really a personal outlet I don't publish for anything serious(the writing is horrific, I'm sure you've noticed). It does contain a number of things I very much believe, however.

The self quotations, admittedly, probably do make me seem like a nutball. It's all in good fun, though. I don't liken myself to anything important, so don't worry about dealing with a superiority complex case. :)

The "your culture" bit is simply a reference to your environment. Your society. The people that raised you and/or shaped you into what you are today. My culture is largely the Western, Christian culture of North America.

I find most people who debate in the realm of religion put their human understanding and assumptions on God. ie. is God man or woman? I say, why should he be either? He is 'above' the environment he created. He is not confined by his creation. The Mormon's, I think, are of the belief that God is three separate, physical entities/persons(The Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit). Traditional Christianity teaches God as three-in-one. God being all three, in one person without separate entities. Someone might ask, how can God send _himself_ down to earth as Jesus? Again, I would suggest he is not confined by how we think of our environment. We can't, for instance, send part of our consciousness off to another place. God can.

Farewell,
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
Ok, let me try if and see if I can explain this (3.50 / 2) (#98)
by dleal on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 07:33:30 PM EST

I don't remember who it was (it was a christian, though) that always said to his disciples, "Always preach the gospel. If necessary, use words." I see a lot of anger here in k5 towards christians (or christianity). I can understand that. I'm a christian and sometimes I feel it too. My main problem is the way people, so swiftly, entitle themselves christians, and then go on behaving like they never heard about the Bible, basically denying what they say their faith is.

But, as a christian I must say I agree wholeheartedly about what orbi said. Let me put it this way: say you're a doctor, and you have a patient who is suffering from some kind of illness. So you tell her "The only way you can get healed is by taking this medicine." Is this absurd? No, I don't think so and neither do you. So let's apply this to christianity: as much as people would like to hear otherwise (I know I would, sometimes) the whole Bible is consistently pointing out that the way to God is only through Jesus. Not through meditation, Buddha, Mohammed or anyone else. There is no choice for us christians to speak up in this matter. Sometimes, things can only be seen in terms of black and white and this is one of them (oh, and, btw, I don't agree with the death penalty).

However it's put, the main point is always the same: just give God a chance. I see people here always open to try out new things. Why not try Jesus?



[ Parent ]
Keep trying ;) (none / 0) (#104)
by Wah on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 10:20:29 PM EST

My main problem is the way people, so swiftly, entitle themselves christians, and then go on behaving like they never heard about the Bible, basically denying what they say their faith is.

I've learned to call them Baptists, of the Southern variety.

Let me put it this way: say you're a doctor, and you have a patient who is suffering from some kind of illness. So you tell her "The only way you can get healed is by taking this medicine." Is this absurd? No, I don't think so and neither do you.

Hehe, maybe you can tell me what I think of this, but it sure doesn't seem so. This is such a Western medicine ideal, and it's as flawed as your other logic. Maybe what they need is to not keep eating Mickey D's and Krispy Kremes every morning. That's just funny, the only possible way you can really treat this disease is with our new wonderdrug, Ritazac (ask, err, tell your doctor).

the whole Bible is consistently pointing out that the way to God is only through Jesus.

What about that "Old" Testament? And when did "through" become "drop all thinking and just believe what your priest tells you" instead of "live like I lived"? I've got an Occam's Brand Razor here if you want to borrow it.

Not through meditation, Buddha, Mohammed or anyone else. There is no choice for us christians to speak up in this matter.

Oy vey! No choice, huh? Fine, whatever floats your boat, but it sinks mine. If I don't have a choice, what value do my decisions have to anyone?

Why not try Jesus?

Why not try and understand him, on your own terms? Please, don't take my sarcasm too harshly, but I've been through this whole absolute Bible thing. Read up here, for a primer on arguments you can drop right now.
--
Information wants to be free, wouldn't you? | Parent ]

re: Keep trying ;) (none / 0) (#113)
by Shovas on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 12:25:35 AM EST

Greetings,

Hmm...fancy meeting you again. :)

I think you're, again, taking a point out of the frame of reference and changing its intent. Maybe you're doing that on purpose or by accident. What I gather from this person's medicice statement is that there is one way to a solution. If that is so, it is not absurd.

God gave us what's between our ears, however, to develop methods of treating certain ailments where there are no known cures. A mix of natural and man-made solutions is necessary, I believe.

Regarding the Old Testament, it is superceded by the New Testament. The act of God sending down his son is prophesied in the Old Testament, which is what gives the New Testament its authenticity(as well as meeting other requirements of scripture). The Old Testament also provided a sacrifice-system as God's path for people to move along the correct path. Throughout the Bible, there has always been one way to God.

I don't see where see "through" ever becoming "drop all thinking and just believe what your priest tells you". Jesus laid out an example of how to live. We should live that way.

Reading up on that DrDino.com thread. :) Very interested to see how you refute evidence like that...

Farewell,
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
Hey Howdy (none / 0) (#221)
by Wah on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 06:45:28 PM EST

Only one thing to really comment on here.

Reading up on that DrDino.com thread. :) Very interested to see how you refute evidence like that...

It's not about refuting his evidence. It's about refuting his arugment which is "Evolution and Creationism are incompatible and one must be discarded." The way to do this is create an understanding that they are not at odds, one is merely a clarification of the other. The one coming later providing that clarity. This is done simply by showing that the Bible is not an end-all-be-all book of knowledge. It has stuff that points to other potential data, but when that is taken as that data, then you have a vicious circle which has led to Modern Christianity (and Southern Baptists).
--
Information wants to be free, wouldn't you? | Parent ]

Compromise is good, except when it's not. (none / 0) (#224)
by Shovas on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 11:39:16 PM EST

Greetings,

Forget the Subject, couldn't think of one. :)

It's good to know you're willing to compromise a belief you don't hold. It's very thoughtful of you.

The problem here is that Dr. Hovind and people who speak on these issues present mountains of evidence which seem ot invalidate the actual theory of evolution(not simply show that it is not compatible with their belief) and also evidence which supports their beliefs. With such evidence, evolution appears to be not only incompatible with their belief, but invalid and able to be 'discarded'.

I think you may be referring to the science of evolution vs. the science of the bible, and not necessarily the founding notions of each. At the science level, you could definitely interpret events, in both, that appear similar. At the foundations level, however, you begin to see incongruences. Things such as a god creating animals in an instant. Creating animals in front of a man. These contrasts the slow development of evolution. This contradicts the Bible. When you get this far, it is either one way or the other. You can believe the Bible or you can believe the theory of evolution.

As you can see, just a little example can provide a glimpse as to why some would claim each belief to be incompatible with each other.

Regarding the Hovind thread: I have written a response there, as did the originator of the thread. You should read those. I notice you watched the first hour of the presentations. In that thread, I suggest watching the rest, for reasons given therein.

Farewell,
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
The Literal Bible (none / 0) (#231)
by Wah on Thu Aug 30, 2001 at 03:37:25 PM EST

So you take the Bible as absolute, unquestable Truth. Fine. Let's look at one of you comments and maybe we can show how that's silly.

At the foundations level, however, you begin to see incongruences. Things such as a god creating animals in an instant. Creating animals in front of a man. These contrasts the slow development of evolution.

I take it this is from the "Seven Days" literal translation? Quick question, surely you've seen all those stars in the sky. Do you believe them to be "Suns" like ours? Now, since we measure our days by cycles of rotation (of our planet) how do you think God measures them? Perhaps by revolutions of the Universe? This makes a "day" a bit longer than 24 hours.

And also, creating animals before Man is exactly what evolution says too.

My big problem with Hovind is that he builds a big strawman, filled him with holes, and then says he doesn't exist. Well, he didn't exist in the first place, so you've got all the making of a vicious circle. That first video is where he created this strawman. After watching that I realized his entire series was based on it, so why would I be surprised when he said that "evolution" doesn't exist, when it didn't exist in his argument in the first place?

Point me to one of the videos (with a link) where he starts to give this evidence you have such faith in. I need a laugh. ;-)
--
Information wants to be free, wouldn't you? | Parent ]

God is personal and Relevant to His Creation... (none / 0) (#234)
by Shovas on Mon Sep 03, 2001 at 04:12:44 PM EST

Greetings,

Well, have you read the Bible? Especially the first parts of Genesis? Let's see: Now, since we measure our days by cycles of rotation (of our planet) how do you think God measures them? Perhaps by revolutions of the Universe? This makes a "day" a bit longer than 24 hours.

The Bible specifically says a day in the creation is a morning, and an evening. Translated from original Hebrew, and the same wording is used in the New and normal King James Version.

4. And God saw the light, that is was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and morning were the first day.
- Genesis 1:4-5 (KJV)

He continues to say "And the evening and morning were the [first, second, third, etc.] day." This pretty much refutes your idea that God would refer to a day from a much grander view and say a revolution of the galaxy, or universe would be his "day".

I really don't want to say to look at a specific video. Remember, I didn't like this either until I saw about 4 videos and then a live presentation which turned my head. Truthfully, set aside some time to watch the entire series. As you might have noticed, he continually refers to other videos in the series. It is quite necessary to get the entire picture from all the videos as a simple 1 hour video can't fit all he needs to say in the format.

There is one arguement that Hovind uses in one video, that he , himself, later corrects himself on. That being, the moon dust arguement. I think the foundation of the arguement was an error in the math done by NASA that allowed an arguement to be made. I believe they later discovered that the amount of dust on the moon is pretty much what it should be and, ironically, that arguement could work both ways, and is now basically a moot point.

Farewell,
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
And that would be....who? or what? (none / 0) (#235)
by Wah on Mon Sep 03, 2001 at 08:36:49 PM EST

and sorry to be so combative, but look at what it says.

4. And God saw the light, that is was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

It's just light, light is good. And he seperated it from darkness (using matter, evolution tells us).

5. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and morning were the first day.

And so he "gave it a name", and gave the other a name. And the two together are called a day.

Again, where is any mention of hours? Or 24 hours specifically? Morning is only the first part of a day, that doesn't mean God's day can't be 1 billion of our years, or only a second, or even both one right after the other. Who told you it was 24hrs? Cause God don't say it in the Bible.

There is one arguement that Hovind uses in one video, that he , himself, later corrects himself on.

Yes, and another is his strawman creation to fight evolution. His whole process is totally flawed. Talk about that if you wish. Or ask me what I think the answers to those questions he poses should be, as an evolutionist. See how far apart the real and Hovind's world actually are.
--
Information wants to be free, wouldn't you? | Parent ]

Oh come on, this is just anal... (none / 0) (#237)
by Shovas on Tue Sep 04, 2001 at 08:47:15 AM EST

Greetings,

Of course you can make yourself think that God isn't logical, and would tell us things and leave us things that weren't in our time frame or reference. You 'could' take his words and eschew them to what you'd like to think. But it's insane to think something this specific and expounded throughout the literature means something other than it is.

Perhaps it's the familiar syndrome of either side of the debate taking the other's evidence and using it for their own. I'm not sure, but these words and the rest of the Bible are specific and do not leave a shred of doubt.

"Evening" and "Morning"? Come on? On God's grand scale, would he 'really' have a day? Hours? An evening and a morning? He's simply putting things into perspective for a puny race of humans who can't yet understand things on a stellar scale. He's creating earth. He's in our reference frame and thus speaks and creates in a way we can understand.

Really, there's just no reason to believe these words were meant to mean millions of years without external force working to bend the words to what the viewer wants. Evolution is doing that to you.

I guess it's like this: I take the Bible for what it is, and it explains itself. You take the Bible for what you want, and it appears warped, contradicting and worthy of little else but to discard it.

Personally, I can see where there's more logic involved...

Regarding the videos: Can you take me up on my challenge to watch the entire series? Write notes. Write a massive essay. Argue each minute piece in point-form. It would be interesting to argue Hovind with you on an arguement-by-arguement(the actual evidence or refutations he presents) basis.

Farewell,
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
We're getting closer (none / 0) (#238)
by Wah on Tue Sep 04, 2001 at 11:20:06 AM EST

but we don't see things quite the same.

It's not anal, just a lot more specific.

"Evening" and "Morning"? Come on? On God's grand scale, would he 'really' have a day? Hours? An evening and a morning?

All he defined a day as was changing of light to darkness. This would happen for any entity on a similar cycle.

He's simply putting things into perspective for a puny race of humans who can't yet understand things on a stellar scale.

Wrongo, unless it was God's literal hand that wrote the Bible. I don't think it was, I think it was a puny human with no understanding of stellar scale who actually wrote the words that you are reading and put them into his own puny perspective.

Really, there's just no reason to believe these words were meant to mean millions of years without external force working to bend the words to what the viewer wants. Evolution is doing that to you.

Yes there is a reason, and we call it reason. God gave this to us through a process that we decided to call Evolution.

I guess it's like this: I take the Bible for what it is, and it explains itself. You take the Bible for what you want, and it appears warped, contradicting and worthy of little else but to discard it.

And you'd have guessed wrong. I take the Bible for what it is, and it has become warped, over time. It is contradicting, but it still quite worthy of study. But again, it is not the end-all-be-all book of answers that you seem to be taking it for.

The only way I'd watch all of those videos was if you strapped me down and forced me. And then I'd close my eyes. Hovind is a fool, and that's because the FIRST thing he says is "The Bible is the literal, unquestionable TRUTH." Which is not correct, and his argument flows from that fallacy. That's not to say it doesn't have a use, that it can't be a means to an end, but it is not that end itself, which is Hovind's blind spot.
--
Information wants to be free, wouldn't you? | Parent ]

Okay, then let's start from the basics... (none / 0) (#241)
by Shovas on Tue Sep 04, 2001 at 07:49:20 PM EST

Greetings, You won't watch the entire series(which has some very good evidence if you'd only watch it) because you don't like Hovind's personality and style of presentation. You say be begins on a flawed belief, that "The Bible is the literal, unquestionable TRUTH.".

1. Why is it not? I ask this from the perspective that just from one example of many sources, Hovind's evidence supports not just Creation, but the authenticity of the Bible. So don't come back with the converse to that question, if you're not willing to watch the videos. :)

"I take the Bible for what it is, and it has become warped, over time."

2. How has it become warped over time? You do know the original Hebrew, of the Old Testament, is kept character for character, in exact copy by scribes, don't you? If one character is left out, they start all over.

As a side note, this is one of the arguements in The Bible Code book, that was popular a few years ago. I'm undecided on the Bible Codes, as yet, but it's gaining momentum in my mind as I see more papers refuting other papers which claimed to refute the original Bible Code math/concept.

At any rate, the scribes copying the New Testament, while(from what I hear) not so perfect in their copies were still studious in their writing and kept largely exact copies. Translate the original Hebrew Old Testament and the original Aramaic(or Greek?) New Testament, and you'll still find the translations quite the same in word and ideal.

Truthfully, I fail to see where the Bible could become so distorted as you claim.

Also, maybe I should change my sig to something like "Watch the seminar videos!" :) I would love for someone to get through the whole thing and then have a debate about the actual evidence presented further in. Unfortunately, most people are turned off by his style, as you are. Farewell,
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
Jah, good idea (none / 0) (#242)
by Wah on Wed Sep 05, 2001 at 10:46:41 AM EST

1. Why is it not?

It is, or was (more specificly) for the people of that time. I ask you this, in a competely literal sense, what does the Bible say about stem cells? What does it say about Missile Defense Systems? Again, I mean literally, not your or anyone else's interpretation. That, in a nutshell, is why taking it as the absolute truth is a fallacy. When it comes to things that it doesn't explain, people must use their own flawed understandings and feeling to interpret it. Which is where the entropy creeps.

2. How has it become warped over time?

As I was just infering, it is not the Bible, but us who have become warped over time. By referring to a 6,000 year old document as literal truth for our time we are missing out on a great deal.

I haven't check out the Bible Code, but I would guess that some is good, some is silly. There is a pattern to it all (and I mean all) and it comes out in interesting ways, all influenced by our perception.

Like I said, it wasn't Hovind's style that turned me off, I laughed at that. It was quite simply, his content, which I found offensive.
--
Information wants to be free, wouldn't you? | Parent ]

Such topics do not fade over time... (none / 0) (#243)
by Shovas on Wed Sep 05, 2001 at 08:02:49 PM EST

Greetings,

I ask you this, in a competely literal sense, what does the Bible say about stem cells? What does it say about Missile Defense Systems? Again, I mean literally, not your or anyone else's interpretation. That, in a nutshell, is why taking it as the absolute truth is a fallacy.

Why should the Bible talk about these material, man-made things? The Bible is, among other things, a source of wisdom to understand how we should behave, act, react, think and perceive. God gave us brains to (1) Discover things like stem cells and missile defense systems and (2) to think rationally about all aspects of such inventions and concepts. The Bible gives many examples of situations where moral and ethical judgement are tested. These same teachings provide the knowledge to understand how to think about the moral and ethical implications of stem cell research and weapons of destruction. We're made in God's image. We are intelligent. We are meant to use that intelligence to think about things, like we are now.

By referring to a 6,000 year old document as literal truth for our time we are missing out on a great deal.

Why would moral and ethical reasoning change over time? Is killing someone more or less 'good' in this day and age, than it was thousands of years ago?( Give or take what cultures believe in, of course.) Is stealing any more worse now than it was 300 years ago?

The Bible is relevant because it teaches things which do not die. Morals, ethics, beliefs, the nature of man, etc. These things are still here. This is what the Bible talks about. Besides this, we have the intelligence to extrapolate from a given text to draw parallels to ourselves.

Do you read fiction classics? Dante's Divine Comedy, Heart of Darkness, the Chronicles of Narnia, Lord of the Flies? These are old books, but no one denies their impact is still relevant to our society. It is because the author's speak of timeless things, like the Bible does, which are relevant to all people in all times.

Farewell,
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
Only threads do... (none / 0) (#245)
by Wah on Mon Sep 10, 2001 at 12:19:40 PM EST

Why would moral and ethical reasoning change over time?

It doesn't but our understand of what they mean does. Take Hovind again, he sets up a false dichotomy to show how someone else is wrong. Then once they are "wrong" it's o.k. to do all sorts of bad stuff to them. Which is itself wrong, but since they are wrong, it seems like it might be o.k. to do. But it isn't.

Killing and stealing are also wrong, but stealing has changed, especially in the light of IP, which has becomes some of mankinds most "valuable" assets. Is the value in using and sharing these thoughts (perhaps by saving lives), or the value is all in the money that can be created by restricting access to them?

What does the Bible say about the IP debate? I know it talks about "stealing", but what is "stealing" now that we can share thoughts so easily? (my ideas on this are linked to in my .sig so please don't bring up something I cover there, unless you want to argue that. But I'll ask again, so you know what I want to know, What does the Bible say about Intellectual Property?
--
Information wants to be free, wouldn't you? | Parent ]

Will is the only definitive threat to infinity... (none / 0) (#246)
by Shovas on Wed Sep 12, 2001 at 02:08:11 PM EST

Greetings,

Let me start from the bottom up:

What does the Bible say about Intellectual Property?

I must not be getting myself through very clearly. Generalized moral and ethical principle do not change. As I said in a previous post, not literary scholar would argue that classic lit loses its impact over time, because the topics discussed and written about are timeless. Nobody would insist the ideas presented in Ulysses is out of date.

The same goes for the Bible because they speak on the same subjects. The Bible does not talk about whether stealing IP is a sin or not, for a few reasons: (1) It lays out the groundwork of what is moral and what is not. It gives a basic structure of how we should act(ie. Ten Commandments). (2) God gave us a brain to extrapolate from these basic principles and examples how we should act in any given situation.

"Thou shalt not steal." What is "stealing"?(Footnote) The same thing as it has always meant: Taking something which you do not own and do not have permission to take. This is a basic principle in all societies and cultures. The Bible talks about basic principles like this.

As we are given brains, it is our duty to use them to figure out the IP debat. Just because it may be easier to copy something doesn't mean the owner wants you to copy it. Let's break it down: (A) The IP is someone elses. (B) They state they do not want people copying it. (C) You go and copy it. This fits the bill for stealing.

Remember, it's about basic principles. Assuming, on your part, that God really did make us in his own image, would he not give us the intelligence we need to think for ourselves? Could he give us any less and still have a "point" to his creation(to willingly love and worship).

Is the value in using and sharing these thoughts (perhaps by saving lives), or the value is all in the money that can be created by restricting access to them?

The only fair policy--when dealing with those who follow different beliefs--is a supply&demand policy. In this case, the value is decided by the owner, not you, not I, not anyone. If the owner doesn't get what they want, they stop selling or lower the value. In order to treat all people equally, you must be willing to say "You have a cure for cancer. You hold in your hand the fate to millions of people's lives. You must decide if you're willing to help us, or hinder us." Only this is fair, because it allows the system to work both ways. You may one day be in that position, holding a cure for cancer, and you will be able to decide what to do.

It doesn't but our understand of what they mean does. Take Hovind again, he sets up a false dichotomy to show how someone else is wrong. Then once they are "wrong" it's o.k. to do all sorts of bad stuff to them. Which is itself wrong, but since they are wrong, it seems like it might be o.k. to do. But it isn't.

You'll have to explain this more. You've stated this in quite a few posts, but never expounded on it. Are you saying Hovind takes a number of theories of contemporary science that are incorrect, and then uses that to his advantage?

I'm quite serious, you _really_ must watch the rest of the seminar. If you could just get past his style, I'm sure you could find hard evidence against evolution.

Farewell,

1. From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) :
(Law) The act of stealing; specifically, the felonious act of taking and removing of personal property, with an intent to deprive the rightful owner of the same; larceny.

Note: To constitute theft there must be a taking without the owner's consent, and it must be unlawful or felonious; every part of the property stolen must be removed, however slightly, from its former position; and it must be, at least momentarily, in the complete possession of the thief. See Larceny, and the Note under Robbery.
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
Fell off the face of the earth? :) (none / 0) (#248)
by Shovas on Mon Sep 24, 2001 at 12:40:50 PM EST

Greetings,

Just wondering if you're still active...

Farewell,
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
hmmm (none / 0) (#176)
by dleal on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 07:43:31 PM EST

Sorry for not quoting you, but I'm on the console (been installing LFS) and I don't have gpm installed, so I can't/(don't know how to) select text in order to copy/paste it here.

Regarding your response to my medicine example: what I meant was, when there is only one solution to a problem, I don't think there's any point in giving any other directions. For example, to the specific question "Why do you get out of bed in the morning?" there are a lot of possible answers. However, the Bible says all of them will ultimately lead to frustration again, except one: a personal relationship with God himself (through Jesus). For more on this you can read the book of Ecclesiastes. It was written by the king Solomon, and in it he analizes life by way of human wisdom (that's why he keeps using the expression "under the sun", i.e. he deliberately isn't taking into account anything that was revealed by God, only what he can gather by observation and thought).

Regarding your response to me saying the only way to God is through Jesus:

I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. (John 14:6)

This was said by Jesus. :) Indeed he says "live like I lived". The way he lived was by maintaining very close fellowship with God, and consistently depending upon him. You see, christianity is a relationship, not a religion. It's not something you perform, it's something you live. I think a lot of people (even christians, unfortunately) fail to understand this, and I also think that explains why the church is in the shape it is today.

Regarding your response to me saying that christians have no choice: see verse above. Christians have a choice. Christians have a lot of choices. But in some matters we must accept things as they are. I think you'll understand, after reading that verse I pointed you to, why I say christians have no choice in this matter: Jesus left us none. :)

Regarding your comments about understanding Jesus. Do try to understand him, but please do it on his terms: don't take my word for it, pick up a Bible and read through it. That is the best way to understand Jesus, because he is there, page after page (including the Old Testament).

I must confess I haven't read much of the thread you pointed me to. I didn't have much time today, and the first messages seemed to border apologetics, and apologetics doesn't interest me much. People won't turn to God "just because he exists" even if they are sure he exists. I don't think there's logic in that. I think people will turn to God if they find God is relevant to them, because he loves them, is interested in them, etc. The best way to know this is by reading the Bible. You can say, "why not the Coran, Buddha's writings, etc?". To that I say, read the Bible, and judge for yourself.

So, again, why not try Jesus? Why not listen to him, and to what he has to say?



[ Parent ]
A couple things (none / 0) (#182)
by Wah on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 10:49:06 PM EST

That quote earlier you got almost right, it's "Preach the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words" - Francis of Assisi. I ran across it today, reading up on some literature about the power of nonviolent action (as taught by this fellow).

what I meant was, when there is only one solution to a problem, I don't think there's any point in giving any other directions.

Yes, and what I meant was that the assumption that there is only one solution to a problem is a poor assumption.

I think you'll understand, after reading that verse I pointed you to, why I say christians have no choice in this matter: Jesus left us none. :)

Hehe, and I think you'll understand if you read that entire other thread, that Jesus probably did leave some room open, but the people who got to mess with his words afterwards thought that might be a bad idea. Hence the whole organized religion thing. Jesus left a simple plan, know God. Later, people needed a reason for people to come to church and pay tithing, so they fiddled with it a bit. And I don't get the same conclusion you do when reading that quote.

So, again, why not try Jesus? Why not listen to him, and to what he has to say?

Because he ain't talking. He's dead. His teachings live on, but they have been messed with, translated, skewed, and used to justify a great many nasties. The same stuff you still think is perfect. It ain't.
--
Information wants to be free, wouldn't you? | Parent ]

Some observations (none / 0) (#239)
by dleal on Tue Sep 04, 2001 at 03:25:58 PM EST

I finally read that thread you pointed me to (btw, sorry for the long delay in replying) and it's at least refreshing to see that people can argue in a civilized way about a matter that more often than what would be desirable only succeeds in bringing out the worst in people (from both sides). I would say, however, that I don't think much is bound to come out of this kind of arguments, because I don't think any of the sides are truly interested in contemplating the other one's point of view. Rather, they are trying to present their own point of view, (maybe) in hope that the other side will 'see the light' (pardon the somewhat sarcastic expression). That's perfectly understandable (no one wants to abdicate of what they believe in), but that's why I don't like apologetics as a starting point to discussing christianity with people.

However, the fact that you don't think human race is a fallen one struck me as particularly odd. I think I can number thousands of examples of why I disagree with that. Can you explain why you think that way?

Yes, and what I meant was that the assumption that there is only one solution to a problem is a poor assumption.

As you probably have guessed, I disagree with you here, at least in part. Some problems may have multiple solutions but I can't say that human evil can be placed in that category.

Hehe, and I think you'll understand if you read that entire other thread, that Jesus probably did leave some room open, but the people who got to mess with his words afterwards thought that might be a bad idea. Hence the whole organized religion thing. Jesus left a simple plan, know God. Later, people needed a reason for people to come to church and pay tithing, so they fiddled with it a bit.

Well, tithing is something that is mentioned in the Old Testament but not in the New. In the New Testament there is not a notion of tithe (10% of what you have). It is superseeded by the fact that each of us should give what their own heart says we should give. Some give more, some give less.

To be honest, a God of infinite resources doesn't need our money, but I can think of several motives on why it is important for us to give (for us, not for God), ranging from a measure of the importance money has in our lives to the fact that ultimately all that we have and all that we are was given to us by God and is, in fact, still his, and it's a good thing to recognize that.

Regarding the 'tampering' you mentioned, can you elaborate on why you think this is the way you say and point me to some sources? I would like to investigate that (I will say however, that I don't believe it, because a perfect God would not allow his letter to mankind to be distorted. It's not logical).

And I don't get the same conclusion you do when reading that quote.

Mind if I ask what conclusion do you get then?

Because he ain't talking. He's dead. His teachings live on, but they have been messed with, translated, skewed, and used to justify a great many nasties. The same stuff you still think is perfect. It ain't.

I can agree with the parts of 'translated', 'skewed', and 'used to justify a great many nasties'. As to the part of 'messed with' (as I told above), I can't. Sorry. :)

Oh, and he ain't dead. :)

You know, the Bible... it makes sense (and you are probably finding this funny)... It corroborates my observations of life and people (even though in some cases I would like to have more actual experience) and explains a great many deal of things. Also, I look around, to the natural world and I find so much beauty, sense and logic that I have a hard time thinking that all this was done by 'random chance'. And I look at the human society and I see so much pain, ugliness and evil (even though not everything's bad, of course), that I have a hard time believing that humans are (or will be) able to 'sort it out'.

You know, I keep saying this, but I will say it again: even though you think it's flawed, tampered with, illogical, whatever, why don't you give a try reading it? Judge for yourself, from the source. It sure won't hurt you. And, who knows, maybe you'll even change your mind. ;)



[ Parent ]
the problem (none / 0) (#183)
by kimodo on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 10:53:17 PM EST

the problem most people see with christians is the fact that they are no different than used car salesman...they always come off like they're trying to sell you something. They (most not all) are some of the most fake people i have ever come across..the bible says to only worship the god of christianity...who are they to say that jesus christ is more real than muhammed? or any other religious diety. The fact is they are all fantasies....no proof at all....how can someone tell someone else that the invisible man they belive in is the real invisible man, and that they're invisible man isnt there....how sad.

[ Parent ]
re: suggestions (4.00 / 5) (#62)
by xj479 on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 02:13:09 AM EST

Thanks for all the great suggestions, I have taken many to heart, but... since my options are limited (serving in the military for the next five years), I can only act on a few of them.

The answer I'm looking for has more to do with transcendence than coping, even though they could be very similar (e.g.: finding a permanent solution to a problem vs. dealing with it by continually putting it off). What I want to avoid is dissipating my focus among many activities, which would leave me little time to think about the problem. I instead want to work on finding a permanent solution to it.

Although learning to cope permanently fits the solution criterion, it won't get me anywhere; and backpacking around the world just isn't feasible for everyone, especially those under contract, not wanting to become a deserter. This solution should be workable by anyone, even blind, deaf quadriplegics. It should require nothing more than the burning desire to find the answer. It is the essence of creativity, freedom, living "deliberately".

I probably should have been a bit more specific than asking why you get out of bed in the morning but I couldn't think of anything that would fit in to one line. I wanted to know what <see things mentioned in last sentence of above paragraph> means to you.

Why do you get out of bed ... (none / 0) (#120)
by convoy on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 02:17:06 AM EST

Check out these two books:

Playing Ball on Running Water - David Reynolds.
Man's Search for Meaning - Viktor Frankl.


[ Parent ]

Life Philosophy (none / 0) (#156)
by Elkor on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 02:41:20 PM EST

Another comment on another thread that might help.

Good Luck.

Regards,
Elkor


"I won't tell you how to love God if you don't tell me how to love myself."
-Margo Eve
[ Parent ]
I get up for ... (4.42 / 7) (#64)
by omegadan on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 03:27:46 AM EST

indulgence. Pornography, sex, food, buying shit I can't afford. I goto work and I zombie thru my day. I don't do shit, I come late and I leave early, anytime anyone isn't looking Im buying shit on ebay, reading slashdot/k5/theonion, talking on IRC... same thing in college, D's and F's ... double acedemic probation

Then I saw the movie "Fight Club" ... the movie is essentially about a man dealing with the problem your having ... it dosen't have any answers for you, but I guarantee it will set you thinking.

Fight Club made me realize what I was ... a consumer. There was only one thing to do ... Become a producer. Make things ... I think a man needs to make something, with his hands, with his mind, to feel good about himself.

so I thought back on my life to what made me happiest, and did that thing (for me it was writing music ... actually, it was boning this spanish chick from glendale, if your out their katie ...)

Now I get up in the morning with a desire to create, and experience things I can write songs about ...

I still have to goto work, but its easier ... now if I can just find that spanish gal ...

You have to draw a distiction between your work and you. The saying "Americans live to work, europeans work to live" is very true ...

This sounds like the standard mid 20's crisis to me, but you must consider the possibility (sp?) that you are suffering from mild depression. You should see a doctor to see if it warrants treatement ... It sounds to me like you may be depressed because your unhappy in your situation (job/gf/finace etc)

Religion is a gateway psychosis. - Dave Foley

I don't know... (4.00 / 4) (#65)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 03:30:51 AM EST

... and if I said I did, I would feel like I was lying. My best idea is that I associate waking and a bright sky with getting up and showering and then going to do some "work". I am a primate (as established by my post in that article about "who are you, what do you do"), and we primates work by associations and habits. So I figure I get up out of habit.

I hope to someday profess my feelings of passion for, comfort with, and love for a female that is currently far away. If I'm lucky she will consent to join me for the rest of my duration in this life, and I will be "the happiest person [alive|there ever was]". If not, I'll try to learn to feel the same about another female and then profess my love for her (repeating as required, you see).

Other than these things, I have something of a predilection for enjoyment of semi-intellectual and "reality-seeking" coversation. But that is quite secondary to the primate behaviors that I notice in myself. Like my enjoyment of eating some foods, being around some other particular primates, and, on some social occasions, the alteration of my state of consciousness in likable directions.

I greatly wish I could somehow repay the social structure ("my clan") for all that it has given me, but I really don't know how, and, to be honest it often doesn't make it all that easy for me. So I'll do what I can, and try not to worry over-much about it. That seems to be what is expected.

I wish you, and all people, the very best in life. Working together, I think we might just get trough this. Good luck to us all.



Idealism and Improvement... (4.25 / 4) (#67)
by Parity on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 04:14:46 AM EST

I do a lot of things besides work and K5; I volunteer-staff on a science-fiction convention, I help with fund-raising to defend a particular court case, I write code for and roleplay on MUSHes, I read lots of books... Meaning is in the moment, and the process of improvement... trying to change the world a little bit at a time, introduce a little fun here, a little justice there, a little creativity somewhere else, and make the world a better place for my having been in it. Perhaps my tasks are not grand or important to you, but they are to me. If you're feeling unimportant or useless, find something useful to do; there are always soup-kitchens and homeless shelters trying to alleviate suffering, neither AIDS nor cancer has been cured yet, and if those aren't what you want to do, there are many, many other things that people get together and do, not for pay or survival, but because they think they're useful, important, or fulfilling in someway. Look for the thing or things that do it for you.

Parity Even


Getting out of bed in the morning... (3.50 / 2) (#70)
by pontulla on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 05:41:50 AM EST

I used to know that answer. I now question it, too. I know it's not so much that the world has and keeps changing. It always will. I now know there are 3 things we can count on in life: death, taxes, and change. So what has changed that affects me so much? Me. What used to be my goals and dreams seem of little importance. I get up in the morning because a) it's habit. b) it's kind of an affirmation that I'm still in the game, even though right now I don't know what it is. I'm an artist and have done well and haven't worked for anyone but myself in 20 years. I got into the gallery scene and had deadlines and shows and commissions. I am one of the lucky few. I now know that I have to paint for myself. Sounds like what artists do naturally, and that's probably true. I have forgotten how to do that. My point is that, although our job, our relationships, where we live and all the other externals don't bring happiness or fulfillment. They help or may hinder. They certainly help shape us. But I have found that it's our reaction to people, places, and things that's the only important thing, as it is only ourselves we have the power to really change. We have to look inside and see what's really important and have the courage to act on it and continue to act on it, make the effort. I have come to believe that it's the interior landscape that will lead us to where we should be in the exterior one. We just have to trust it.
Pontulla


It's a healthy thing to do. (4.25 / 4) (#72)
by Rainy on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 07:54:41 AM EST

But if you aren't healthy, you have to look around for reasons. We're living in a fairly alien environment - for millions of years, our ancestors spent their day on fresh air, doing a lot of physical, non-repetitive work and eating a lot of fresh fruit. It would be a miracle if you ate pizza, wrote code for 8 hours a day and spent the rest of the day playing UT and still found it easy and natural to get out of the bed in the morning. Eat well: soups, salads, fruit, make juice yourself (packaged juice is a scam perpetuated upon humanity), and after a few weeks you'll find that pizza, potato chips and sodas taste like shit that they are. Jog, play tennis or basketball or anything else and your question will disappear. Then, whatever you will do will seem to be filled with meaning, be that psychodelic drugs, reading dostoevsky or drawing web comics in photoshop.
--
Rainy "Collect all zero" Day
unabomber, buddhism and doing it (4.40 / 5) (#73)
by kraft on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 08:04:36 AM EST

What a great topic! Thank you for posting such a great topic. First, a few sources you might want to check out. On the topic of living like a savage, have a look at the UNAbomber manifesto. I think the guy is a bit of looney, but if nothing else this well-written piece will convince why you shouldn't go live in the forest, which he suggests. He talks and talks about why modern people actually get out of bed, and it's not very cheery, but he has some interesting points, which might get you going in a new direction.

You know that you are not the only one pondering this little problem called "The Meaning of Life"? As a matter of fact, the Buddhists have developed ways to minimize suffering and increase happiness for the last 3000 years. A great introduction is the book The Art of Happiness (a guide to living and becoming happy) written by an American psychiatrist together with none other than HRH Dalai Lama. Last year I lost my closest friend (girlfriend and friend) to cancer after 4 years of hospitals and treatment and this book really helped me get through everything without feeling guilty and without feeling that everything is unfair.

For me personally, I feel better about life, than I have in a very long time. I don't think I have found the key to happiness at all, but maybe this could inspire you. Some months ago I packed up my life and moved to France. I couldn't speak a word of French, and everything was weird. However, I knew that I HAD to have some change. Now I study French from 9-12 every day, and then work from home (over the Net) from 13-20. I have made a bunch of new friends and my day is very busy, and I feel like I really USE my time. It is such a reward learning another language, and I get to meet a bunch of totally far out people who are in France for the wierdest reasons (eg. in my class there are 2 nonnes, 2 priests and a munk - some of them are going to Africa to preach).

I see you write with some humor, which I like, but I hope that you know, that you are depressed - at least that's what it looks like to me - and you need to DO something about it.

-Kraft

--
a signature has the format "dash-dash-newline-text". dammit.
moving to a foreign country (none / 0) (#105)
by kubalaa on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 10:30:32 PM EST

It sounds really romantic to pick up everything and move to a foreign country, but it's really impractical. I don't know about France specifically, but I'm going to Germany for a year and their rules about letting foreigners work are pretty restrictive. It occurs to me if you came from within the EU it might be simpler, though.

[ Parent ]
from within EU its a piece of cake (none / 0) (#126)
by kraft on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 09:22:29 AM EST

yeps, I moved from Denmark, so it was very easy. Arrived Sunday, started work Monday. I didn't do any paperwork beforehand... didn't need to. If you want to leave the US, I think the best thing is to get a job before you leave. This way, your employer will be very interested in helping you getting your papers, and since you have a job, it should make getting Visas much easier. That's what I hear anyways. It's always impractical moving - always. But you can get insight abroad (or away from home), that you just can't get at home. I moved many times, and I have lived in 5 different countries (my father is an officer) and I feel like I grow with every new place I see. I still have my friends, and my base, though... -Kraft

--
a signature has the format "dash-dash-newline-text". dammit.
[ Parent ]
blah (4.00 / 3) (#74)
by smaugy on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 08:07:13 AM EST

I don't have any reason to get out of bed in the morning. I can't really remember a time when I wanted to get out of bed or look forward to something. What's this "life had a purpose during childhood and early adolescence" thing? I can't remember ever having a purpose (I'm 19 now).

I don't think I think. When I see people I see just faces - skin, bones, hair, eyelashes. When I'm in a "conversation" with someone I don't care when the topic is - they're just words. I'm thinking "blah blah blah blah" all the time. I have a little dream world in my head where everything's great - I'm happy and am a wonderfully blah blah blah you get the idea. Then I think about Real Life.... and I don't get it.

If I could take a pill to make me sleep forever so my mum & family wouldn't miss me then it would be wonderful.

I just don't get it. I just have to carry on doing nothing and not being able to have the few things (one thing) that I really want, but even that thing wouldn't make me happy (no, it's not obvious; don't ask).

Answering the question "Do you deal with it?" - of course I fucking don't! I've got that avoidant personality thing - if I don't have to talk I won't, if I don't have to wash myself I won't, if I don't have to eat I won't, if I don't have to blah blah.

enough.

No Purpose. (3.66 / 3) (#81)
by Brett Viren on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 11:06:01 AM EST

You have no purpose other than the containment and dissemination of your genetic material.

Anything beyond this is self delusional fantasy.

even worse (4.00 / 1) (#83)
by The Great Satan on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 12:42:11 PM EST

Maybe it isn't your purpose to disseminate your own genetic material but to support others in the dissemination of their genetic material. I.E., I have no children, but I grew up with incredibly irresponsible, unproductive people who have several kids and support them with welfare.
Check out my comic at www.shizit.net/alpha. Or take care of your post hardcore music needs at www.shizit.net. Or ignore this lame self-promotional spam.
[ Parent ]
for the challenge of loving living (3.50 / 2) (#82)
by cleath on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 12:00:37 PM EST

I have spent a lot of time thinking about this question for myself, and have come to some conclusions I have continued to find helpful:
http://www.worldzone.net/ss/cleath/writings/
See 'The Aesthetic Experience'
and
'The experience of meaning in life from a psychological perspective'

(1) Meaning in life appears to involve the experience of having things to look forward to.
(2) Asking questions about the purpose of an experience can destroy one's enjoyment of the experience.
(3) Choosing to die now eliminates the possibility of having death to look forward to (for when things seem really bad or pointless)

--The Kuro5hin 'religion' posting is a closely related question- but I think a new world-view is evolving that is becoming more commonly accepted.
see
http://www.vub.ac.be/CLEA/
and
Howard Bloom's 'Global Brain'
for examples of what may be an emerging trend.

Personally, I feel most comfortable with the practice of unprogrammed quakers. For song and ceremony, I like judaism.
--

Love of experience is the greatest challenge I have faced-- after progessing from no longer wishing I did not have to experience.

Dancing and dance classes (non-social-- ballet, modern, jazz) took me the next step, assisting me in creating experience I really loved and felt intensly, and thus giving me more ideas of what kind of experience I might look forward to in the future.

I hope to be working more in this general philosophical area in the future, and have attempted to do so in the past-- see http://experienceartist.org

Good luck, I think you're in an awesome place, that you're asking this question, and the challenge of loving life- which I think is the basic role humans have in the process of what the universe is becoming- is a great, wonderful challenge, and not easy (for many people).

Colin!


Why? (3.66 / 3) (#87)
by greenshift on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 02:18:09 PM EST

For most of the summer I got out of bed in the morning because I had something to prove. I had to take summer classes at a local university, and I had to do well. When that was finished I got out of bed with the hope that I would talk to or see the girl I'd fallen for. I thought she'd fallen for me, but now that has been over for a month. Now I get up because I still have something to prove. I'm going to make myself a better person, learn more, do more, make something of myself. Sure, maybe I'm motivated by the extreme pain I feel, but I've set goals for myself, and I'm not giving up until they are accomplished. I just woke up a couple weeks ago and said FUCK THIS. I can't go on like this anymore. My advice: Make some changes. Think about what you don't like about yourself, set goals to correct what you don't like, and improve yourself. I learned that if you don't like yourself, you can't like the world, or anyone else in it. If you can't stand working for the man, maybe you should save up some money and start your own business. You could do contract work, or be a consultant.

I get out of bed because I CAN. (4.75 / 4) (#96)
by Dialup on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 06:48:08 PM EST

Seriously. I have legs, and I don't mind using them when I get the chance. My excuse for getting out of the sack this afternoong was threefold- turn up my stereo, check email and get something to eat/drink.

Unlike most people out there, I have a job that I don't mind showing up for- it's not all scotch and cocaine, but it pays the bills, gets me some toys on occasion, gives me a massive swath of bandwidth, and for the most part my coworkers leave me the hell alone to do whatever the heck it is I'm working on. I wear black jeans and combat boots to work. Security doesn't fuck with my bag or ask loudly why I'm carrying a laptop off of the premises.

Bottom line, I'm reasonably happy and have no reason not to be. I don't have to worry about transportation problems (bus), and all of the tinkering I do at home has, so far, invariably saved the division's ass at work. They pay may not be great, but the schedule more than makes up for it- time off when I need/want it, come in and leave when I feel like it... life is a lot less of a hassle when you tell the boss on Tuesday "hey, I'm going to a show tomorrow night, and I'll be in late on Thursday", and his reaction is "sure whatever", as opposed to hellfire and brimstone.

I haven't slipped on a deadline- ever. Fortunately I set a lot of my own, but that's a different matter. Why can't more tech-sector companies be like this?

I wake up, do the work thing, and by about four thirty to five, I'm hitting my mental stride. Then I go out, and either do artwork, write, or generally have a good time. Or I'm at work until ten, getting The Thing Done. Selective networking and social engineering got me in where I work now, and these skills are helping to keep me there.

If your life is miserable, pull your head out of your ass and start working to make it better- read a few tracts on the hows and the whys of social engineering and networking. The Rent problem is easily solved if you have a few good friends to float around between while you're trying to nail a permanent job. Being adaptable to exoctic living conditions and work environments helps... and for fucks sake, kick the TV habit if you haven't already- you'd be amazed how much fuller your life is without the looming spectre of missing your favorite shows eating into your brain.

is there more? (none / 0) (#109)
by IldarNuvo on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 11:08:11 PM EST

i suppose i cant speak for anyone else, but personally it depresses me to think that all there is to life is paying the bills and hanging out. it seems like there should be more; is just being happy our purpose? if that's it, im personally ready to go to my local ecstasy dealer and start living it up. ~Ildar

[ Parent ]
Purpose? Loads of it. (5.00 / 1) (#119)
by Dialup on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 02:11:51 AM EST

Though if E makes you happy, then read up on all of the Bad Things that it does and go to town. Tried it once, not really my thing (and too damned expensive!).

The basics of life are paying the bills and hanging out- if you're doing neither of these, you have problems you need to immediatly address. Having bills to pay is really good motivation to get/keep a revenue stream- and as an artist, I've financed my pharmecutical experimentation and hardware hobbies by trading artworks for services. (for example, I did www.secretaboutbox.com for a Powermac 9500). If you don't have a skillbase that enables your social life (DJ, artist, musician), then the job thing takes on a little more of a priority.

More than paying the bills, a job is a great way to keep your mind occupied for 2-20 hours a day, and a good one has a buttload of fringe benefits that can be used to further your career and free time.

I tried to cover the basics and leave the rest open, as everyone is here for different reasons. Without going too deep into occult science, I'll say that this time isn't my first, and I'm doing my damndest to enjoy myself while working towards accomplishing the goals I've set for myself. I'm youngish (22) and still working towards configuring an optimal living environment for myself- stereo system, a decent workstation, etc., so that I can get down to business and do the work that I really want to do- comics and writing.

Purposes is as relative as perception, reason and truth. It's different for everyone. The point of this post and my prior post is this: if you feel you're wasting your life, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Prefereable immediatly. Don't sit on your rump and watch TV or browse pr0n. Write code, design graphics, read or write a story... and most importantly, get the hell out of the house and meet people. If you're broke and unemployed, you get a lot more accomplished by figuring an angle on free drinks than you do by sitting on your bum watching Jackass and wondering where the unemployment office is.

If it's your will to go visit your dealer buddy, go. Then stop at a party. You'll have much better memories than you would if you stayed home and cleaned the bathroom.

[ Parent ]
Brain Eating TVs. (3.00 / 1) (#157)
by Elkor on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 02:56:16 PM EST

Here here!

I had a similar problem (as I believe most of the world does). I finally twigged to it when I was about to tell some coworkers that I wouldn't go out with them after work.

Why not? Because Buffy was coming on.

Instead, I set a tape to record it, went out, had a blast, and then watched it later, fast forwarding through the commercials.

It's at that point that I told myself I wouldn't let TV run my life. That is why they have VCRs.

Hopefully other people figure it out as well.

Regards,
Elkor


"I won't tell you how to love God if you don't tell me how to love myself."
-Margo Eve
[ Parent ]
Read From Those Who've Already Asked... (3.50 / 2) (#97)
by Shovas on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 07:21:52 PM EST

Greetings,

The comments I see above deal mostly with the the "solutions" you specifically wrote against in your original story submission. Whether people write about setting goals, doing adventurous or dangerous activities, and even the fringe few advocating an end to life as the solution to your problem. They do not state a resolution to the problem of purpose.

Perhaps, however, I might suggest reading. Mind you, your situation may not warrant the effort on your part to delve into this. I speak of reading classic literature, from author's and philosophers and others who have already gone through this, ask the question "Why are we here?"(and its ilk) and tried to answer it.

Some examples of writers: Socrates, Descartes, Plato, James Joyce, C.S. Lewis, Homer, Percy Bysshe Shelley, Aristotle, Dante Alighieri. Surely, there are others I have missed.

At the very least, you'll certainly comprehend far deeper issues of man than simply, shall I get hammered this weekend or not.

Farewell,
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
Saint Exupery (none / 0) (#123)
by richieb on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 07:28:47 AM EST

I would recomend his books as well. Especially "Wind, Sand and Stars".

...richie
It is a good day to code.
[ Parent ]

went to school (3.00 / 2) (#99)
by ebostrom on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 08:03:46 PM EST

I was downsized in Aug /2000,I decided that I didnt really want to go back to work right away . So I went back to school full time,granted it was a lot different than going to night school to get my degree.But it kept me from staying home and sitting in front of the Pc and getting depressed .I am almost afraid to see how much evections have gone up here in San Francisco due to the dot com bombs.

Sisyphus (4.66 / 6) (#100)
by copo on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 08:33:07 PM EST

I suggest you read Camus's Myth of Sisyphus.

It is hard to image a more absurd fate than that of Sisyphus, who was to roll a rock up a mountain for all of eternity, only to watch it roll back down. Yet, despite the obvious futility of his actions, Camus writes of the joy that Sisyphus must experience through the course of his actions. How could Sisyphus be happy in his situation, when most of us are unhappy in ours?

Camus writes that he's happy because he is conscious of the absurdity, and through that consciousness, his fate belongs to him alone. If our fates are any less absurd than Sisyphus's, it is not by much. And so, I suggest you deal with your situation in the same manner that Sisyphus deals with his: ground yourself in your existence and make it your own.

Don't just listen to me and my two sentence precis of the essay. Read it. Read the whole thing. It could make a difference.

I get out of bed because my alarm goes off (4.33 / 3) (#103)
by starbreeze on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 10:15:09 PM EST

I do what i do because a. it pays the bills, and b. it's not so bad. it keeps me from sitting on my ass in front of the TV all day, which i'd probably do if i had nothing else to do. It makes me appreciate the time I do get off and I make use of it and try and get some exercise and have fun.

I find that since I sit at a laptop much of my day at work, in the evenings I need to actually do something. Thursday is really the only day I plop down on the couch in front of the TV after work. And thats cuz I like to catch ALyssa Milano on the WB ;)

What keeps me gainfully employed is enjoying the people that I work with, and realizing that I could have it a lot worse. Sure I bitch, in fact, I tend to use k5 and my blog to bitch quite a bit. But I tend to have fun with my job, they let me learn cool stuff.

Not to be rude, but is this really worthy of the front page? *shrug* I didn't really get the point of it all. I get out of bed in the morning because I am conditioned to rise with my alarm clock at 8:10am and I like to get out of my house.

~~~~~~~~~
"There's something strangely musical about noise." ~Trent Reznor

searching (3.00 / 1) (#107)
by IldarNuvo on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 10:58:36 PM EST

im afraid i cant offer much help to anyone, but i can offer a feeling of empathy. right now i personally feel like a lost child just sort of wandering around looking for something that makes sense. i havent quite gotten around to the psychedelics yet, but im close. lately, ive been just trying to read a lot of philosophy and either compile a suitable paradigm for myself or find a preexisting one. unfortunately, some of my readings have just led to more despair. i continue on each day in hopes of finding motivation. if there is a higher purpose out there and i give up on life, then ive just given up my chance of finding that higher purpose. ~Ildar

Why I Get Out of Bed in the Mornings (2.00 / 1) (#108)
by Robert Uhl on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 11:04:51 PM EST

There are several reasons. Chief of them is that I want a family: a wife and children. I want to be financially independent and able to do as I will when I will. These two goals require mass quantities of money. I increase my own utility towards a wife by accumulating wealth now. I increase my ability to provide for children by accumulating wealth. I bring the day of my retirement nearer by accumulating wealth.

Although I am saving a considerable portion of my income (20%), at the moment the most lucrative means available to accumulate wealth is through gainful employment, i.e. working. And this I haul myself out of bed each morning, shower, shave, dress and head off to my personal grindstone.

Work is not an end; it is a means to an end. I do not enjoy work--it is the Biblical punishment for Adam's sin: `You shall earn your bread by the sweat of your brow.' Work takes a man away from that which he loves. But without that which work provides, a man cannot have what he loves. Work is a necessary evil.

True, some enjoy their work. I find them sad, actually: in time they will be unfit to work, and where shall they be? But a man is always fit to laugh and to love. These skills do not leave him.

I desperately want to be married (ironic, then, that it's the one goal in life I have failed even to begin to accomplish--more in this article). To do this, I need to have a sizable stake already. I want to have children and provide for them as a father ought. To do this, I need money in the bank. I wish to be able to live my life as I please, to love my wife and raise my sons and daughters. To do this, I need the aid of filthy lucre.

This is why I get up in the morning--so that I might someday have that which I hold dear. At least one of my goals is attainable. Pity it's the least of them.

Why can't we have both?! (none / 0) (#125)
by Kat Goodwin on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 09:01:23 AM EST

Just because someone enjoys their work doesn't necessarily mean that they are not "always fit to laugh and to love."

I think it's all about balance - finding a job that does not bore you to death or feel like a punishment but that also provides the other necessities in life. Although I am sure you are perfectly happy with your life right now I am sure you would be even happier if you enjoyed your job just a little bit. I love my job, but it certainly has no negative effect on my husband - it's far nicer for him that I come home reasonably cheerful and not stressed after a day at work that I hated!

[ Parent ]

An Enjoyable Job is a Noble Goal (none / 0) (#219)
by Robert Uhl on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 05:49:25 PM EST

An enjoyable job is a noble goal, a a treasure when found--but many of us don't have that luxury. I enjoy mine, of course--but I would rather not work. I did not mean for an implication that a job leaves one unfit to lauch and to love; indeed, I meant the structure of that paragraph to communicate that one's professional advancement is limited by the onslaught of time, whereas one'd personal advancement is not.

A job is a job; it is not why one should live, IMHO. One should live for one's family, which is oneself.

[ Parent ]

I think the secret is learning to just be. (3.00 / 1) (#110)
by Latch on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 11:25:08 PM EST

I think the trick is to just Be. Not DO or LEARN or THINK or UNDERSTAND or FEEL. All of that is distraction. Necessary at times, desirable at others, but mostly distraction. Finding a way to Be in a moment, any moment, not thinking about the whys or the hows or searching for meaning, can be its own answer. Existence is uncomprehensible. Letting everything go and just Being on occasion is the only way for a thoughtful, rational person to deal with the question you've posed. Everyhing else in my experience is distraction.

Exactly (none / 0) (#129)
by Hefty on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 10:57:25 AM EST

Just wanted to say I totally agree. I am totally one for just accepting things as they are and going with the moment. No regrets.

[ Parent ]
Advice? (4.50 / 2) (#111)
by tfogal on Sun Aug 26, 2001 at 11:28:26 PM EST

I haven't posted on k5 before, but when i saw your post i just had to finally create that account and say something.

I ask the questions and ponder the things you brought up very frequently. I feel like i've been sleeping for my entire life, and that i've just woken up this past winter. Not to sound to much like i'm endorsing it, but i believe linux had a lot to do with this; taking a few minutes out of an otherwise meaningless day to read a few fortunes that really make you think has an effect on you.

During the past year, I've started to write. Just about things I think about, questions I have.. always something I haven't put a full thought into before (which are plentiful!), and always I come out with just a bit more knowledge and something to be happy about - a developed opinion. Its not much, but its something, and it keeps me away from the proverbial sleep.

I posted these on a personal webserver, threw the address in a profile of a messenger service, and a couple people have actually said something about it. A close friend came forward and confided that he's been also missing something for the past few years, and that a writing of mine meant a lot to him.

I'm graduating early, and my birthday is a couple weeks after [high] school will end for me.. the previously mentioned friend and I will be hopping in a car and driving, far, far away, with no destination.

I look forward to this time so much... Its like christmas coming up when your 6 years old - it even manages to slow time :).

This post and a others tell me, and hopefully you, that we're all in the same boat. My advice to you [and to myself, actually], is to try new things, do something creative, especially if you're a math geek like me.. and make something to look forward to! Like maybe a no-rules, no-plans, no-idea-what-your-gonna-do-or-where-your-going road trip.

Good luck.

-Tom

I think kuro5hin will gradually turn into a forum for the discussion of professional wrestling. -- antizeus
I noticed religion didn't make the poll. (4.00 / 1) (#114)
by madgeo on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 12:54:15 AM EST

I might suggest meditation in one of its many forms, doesn't really matter which. But join a group that practices meditation, and form friends there. If you can't stand that, maybe join a regular religous group and form friends, just don't make it too conservative or they'll drive you nuts.

Why I get out of bed in the morning (4.50 / 2) (#115)
by Will Sargent on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 12:56:28 AM EST

Because it feels better than lying in bed. And I enjoy conflict. I enjoy exercising my own abilities and getting better at everything I do, and I don't have to seek a better purpose than that; everything I do is meaningless, but some things I do are harder than others and therefore more interesting.

Most of my troubles seem to be finding ways to keep myself interested 24 hours a day. Girls are great for taking up time and space, but unless they're interesting (or curious) I don't really notice them.

The "hunting wild animals" bit is really boring. Try some extraverted activities. Some people like E, others like to blow shit up, some like wacking each other with swords and other people like to build rockets that go into space or have their open source project. But you feel a lot better when you're doing something that doesn't feel pointless.

----
I'm pickle. I'm stealing your pregnant.
We are dying so slowly, we think we are living (3.50 / 2) (#121)
by gromgull on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 05:37:14 AM EST

Subject says it all.
--
If I had my way I'd have all of you shot

sig (none / 0) (#122)
by gromgull on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 05:38:08 AM EST

And then my signature came and ruined it all...
--
If I had my way I'd have all of you shot

[ Parent ]
Not me, I'm dying quick! (n/t) (none / 0) (#131)
by Duke Machesne on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 11:04:28 AM EST



[ Parent ]
I want to see how life turns out (3.00 / 1) (#124)
by georgeha on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 08:47:57 AM EST

for me, and my wife and kids. So I get up, go to work, provide for the family, work like a dog at home because of the baby, recover a little on the weekends, and repeat until death.

Since nobody else has said anything about Christ.. (3.50 / 4) (#127)
by SvenByGolly on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 09:31:46 AM EST

My own experience convinces me that faith truly is a gift, not something you can talk yourself into. Nevertheless, I'm sorry that after so many posts snidely, cynically advancing the goal of hedonistic abandon no one has mentioned that man, every single person, has a purpose. That purpose is to love and serve God. And that purpose extends beyond this life.

Despite all the bad press that Christianity receives from every possible sector of society, it has answered the very question that you have asked, and it has done so for people from every possible place on earth, for people of every socio-cultural background.

So, to answer your question, I get up every morning hoping to grow closer to my Lord and Savior, to know him better, to learn His will and to prepare myself for (I hope and pray) an eternity of adoring Him.

I try to do this while working as a web developer at a government agency. Not a thrilling existence, but it provides me with plenty of opportunities to challenge not only my technical abilities, but also my ability to trust the God who loves me and to live in a manner that reflects well on Him. When I fail, I know that I need to ask for His love and forgiveness and try again.

Perhaps you're not ready for this solution to your dilemma, but it certainly can't be any worse than what you're going through. I spent an awful lot of years wandering around, figuring out why the sun was coming up again and why I was surviving another day, but I no longer wonder about it.



So, basically what you're saying is... (none / 0) (#130)
by Duke Machesne on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 11:01:29 AM EST

Through your savior's grace, you've managed trick yourself into being complacent and accepting an existence you consider to be somewhat less than thrilling, and when you fail to be complacent enough, your way of dealing with it is to beg for forgiveness from the one who put you in the situation he knew you couldn't handle in the first place.

Gee, that sounds like a really good deal.

__________________________________________________
arts schoolsweight loss
[ Parent ]

Nope (none / 0) (#143)
by SvenByGolly on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 01:01:39 PM EST

...that's not at all what I'm saying. There's no trick involved, I'm not complacent (if, by that, you mean blandly accepting whatever comes my way) and my existence is quite thrilling (and although some might think my job is less than thrilling, I personally enjoy it tremendously). I beg forgiveness when I offend God by not doing all I can to live life the way He intended me to live it. And it really is a great deal. And it lasts forever.

I know that most K5 readers will think I'm a brainwashed, mind-numbed robot and will not understand what I'm trying to say (I used to avoid Christianity because I thought just that about believers), but I can only insist that real freedom consists in living (as much as possible) the life that was intended for each of us.



[ Parent ]
and what life is that? (none / 0) (#202)
by bdowne01 on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 03:47:36 PM EST

I suppose I'm Agnostic. However, how do you *know* what God wants you to do? Whenever I sit down to ask, all I hear is myself talking in my head. ...this isn't a flame, I'm genuinely curious.

[ Parent ]
For the future (4.00 / 2) (#128)
by CrayDrygu on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 10:23:09 AM EST

What gets me out of bed in the morning? Not much, to be honest. In fact, I've been late to work a few times recently (and gotten in trouble because of it) because I have very little motivation anymore.

My job used to be decent, but there's increasingly less for me to do. Not to mention that my boss has shuffled things around a lot, and I no longer have quite the same job I did when I was hired.

So I have a job I don't like (but I need to pay the bills) and little to no social life. It's a sad existance, really, but there is something that keeps me going anyway -- the promise of change, which I'm actively working towards.

I can pay off my car loan in about 4-5 months if I work at it (it's a two year loan that I've had for 3 months now), save up some extra cash, and move out of where I am now (near Boston) to Seattle, where I have friends, a lover, a lower cost of living, and plenty of opportunity for decent jobs.

I get up in the morning for the promise of change. Change that can't happen without money. And I need my job to get that money, or I would have quit a couple months ago when my contract was up. Next time, though...next time I'm outta here.

Sounds familliar (none / 0) (#190)
by shippo on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 06:33:12 AM EST

I went through the same thing a few years ago. The market for the software I worked with collapsed, and a good number of my team left the company. I was shifted into another department, and hated it.

The new position dealt with an in-house written software package. It had many design faults, and was over-hyped, and was basically derived from other company's software with little (if any) credit/

I used to arrive in the office late, and leave early, even leaving 'sick' on a few occasions. The last straw was when new product brochures were printed - 4 pages of lies and half truths. I left the company immediately after getting paid.

The current job is almost as bad. Long periods of inactivty, working with buggy software with no control over the resolution of the bugs. I'm thinking of doing the same again.

[ Parent ]

Onward to the Future! (none / 0) (#197)
by tcdk on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 10:40:45 AM EST

When I read your subject of "For the Future", my first thought was - "wow, somebody who feels like me".

Boy, was I wrong.

Anyway. I get up in the morning, because I want to see what the day will bring of surprises.

How are we doing on that Mars mission?
Will OpenSource ever get a clue and kick MS's butt?
Is there any limits to the stupidity of politics?
Is there any limit to greed?
How are we doing in physics?
Any new interesting teories on the universer, life and everything?
Any interesting new books out there?

And then there's the interpersonal stuff:

Will I find a new and interesting side to my wifes personality?
How about my friends?
Will they get a kid/date/SO/clue?
Will something happen that makes me change the way I walk the path called life?

I want to know!
--
TC / http://sfbook.com
[ Parent ]

My own experience... (4.00 / 1) (#132)
by jd on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 11:23:22 AM EST

Perpetuating the human race seems a -really- Bad Idea. Besides, it seems hell-bent on self-destruction, anyway, so what's the point in prolonging the agony?

Money isn't a reward. It's a punishment. Think about it. You're given money so that you can afford to do someone else's work for them, so that you can then be given back the money you needed to spend, which you will then need to spend all over again.

Running round a hamster wheel may be good exercise for hamsters, but humanity seems to be bolted in.

You're right, there has to be more to life, but you won't find it in your pay-check. Or your tax returns (for those in the US).

Some argue the case that this "more" stuff has to be found in some kind of faith, whether that is religious or not. "After all," they reason, "it ain't here on Earth, so that limits it a bit."

Others argue the case of UFOs for much the same reason. Faith within the scope of this world seems doomed to disaster.

The getting-up bit is no easier. Getting up for the sake of earning money to pay for somewhere for me to sleep seems a bit circular. Why not cut out the middle-man and just sleep? It's a whole lot easier, and doesn't waste so much time.

Yet I get up each day, and go to work. Not for my sake - I don't give a damn - or the sake of my employers - the work I'm doing will be totally obsolete before it's what I would consider complete.

So why? Well, partly for the sake of those I care about. Yes, a few people have managed to achieve that distinction. Because they care about me, I have to be at least vaguely human, for them to be ok. And that means opting for microwaved food, over and above tree roots and wild berries. (I still think that tree roots are probably a whole lot better for you than most microwave dinners, though.)

So that's partly. What about the rest? Sheer ego. There is no way in hell that some two-bit wannabes are going to get the decent computer jobs. I've programmed for longer than many of my co-workers have LIVED. And I'm not much older than they are! I can wipe the floor with most of the coders I've with or for. My current job is the sole exception, in that I can actually name a few people who are actually better than me, and I suspect that's only because all the other "misfits" ended up here.

Caring and pride, then, are my two main driving forces in life. I have faith, too, but faith for me is not so much driving me as steering. You can have all the driving force you want, but unless the guy at the wheel is any good, you'll still end up in the wall.

That, I suspect, then, is the answer to your dilema. All the things you talk about are excellent driving forces, but you've nobody at the wheel. Nobody to hit the gas, nobody steering, and "Nobody" is the single-worst driver of all time. Sack him and get on with your life.

Purpose, Sisyphus and Evolution (4.33 / 3) (#134)
by Defiant One on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 11:50:39 AM EST

Someone here stated that a rock has no purpose, and neither do we. While this sounds a little extreme, it's not so far off the mark, if you consider it from a biological standpoint.

Biological life has in common the purposes of survival, procreation or regeneration, and even a certain innate creativity of solution. The endless variation of life on our planet is evidence of this. But, human beings, self-named creatures whose biological purposes have been, more or less, met have developed a further need for purpose, which is intellectual.

As soon as there was a creature with the highly developed frontal cortex we have, there was a self-analysis which demanded a purpose to life beyond biology. Humans demand an intellectual purpose, and when confonted with its absense, are left feeling detached. Sisyphus' fate is rooted in this loss of meaning.

The lesson in the 'Myth of Sisyphus' is to accept that there really isn't a purpose in life beyond the biological, instinctual purposes, unless an intellectual purpose is created by each individual as a process of living. Our problem in this day and age rests on the fact that our social culture continually sends us the message that a product or a lifestyle will provide that intellectual meaning, but it never does. Millions of people feel lost as a result because they have never been told that an intellectual purpose is their responsibility, and have not been given instruction on how to create it.

So, the challenge for all of us is to realize that intellectual meaning is generated from within, and to find out how to go about generating it. Creative people may already have an advantage on this level, as their intelligence has long discovered this secret. Non-creative people have a disadvantage, as they painfully feel a breakdown of their product-based existence and it's capacity to provide meaning.

The difficult and liberating Truth in all of this is that we have to create our own star, and then we have to follow it.


"What can I say, I believe in total, honest democracy. I also believe this American system can work."
- Woody Allen, Stardust Memories


Been there, done that. (4.00 / 2) (#135)
by evanbd on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 11:52:38 AM EST

And my answer? I don't really know. In all honesty, I can't completely say. Chalk it up to one of those "Phase of Life" things perhaps. OK, now I'll try to be more helpful.

For some perspective: I'm just starting college now. Been here a week. I was feeling about the same as you were (though less extreme, I think) during much of my junior year in high school. It all felt like get up, go to class, wait for it to be over so i can do things I enjoy, except that that consisted of computer games, which while mind-numbing and temporarily enjoyable, left me feeling empty. I lacked purpose in life. I turned in work late or not at all, I slept in class, I did the midless socializing thing. I accomplished nothing that year, except for making it through class and being allowed to come back. And establishing some good friendships, two with people feeling some of the same things.

So at the begginning of last year, I made an active decision to stop playing computer games. Seemed hard at the time, but it wasn't really. I actively decided that during the time had been playing games, I would instead do something I would be gald I had done later. Or do nothing at all. But I wouldn't waste it playing games. Seems odd, to actively decide to waste time doing nothing instead of games, doesn't it. But you know what? it worked. I spent a bit of time writing code. I spent a bit of time watching anime. I spent more time with friends. I spent more time doing absolutely nothing. I did a better job on my school work, though I still had troubles. Overall I was happier. What was my purpose in life? I'm still not sure.

Late second semester I started going out with my girlfriend. Still am. That provided a fairly major change in my life. It was also my first serious relationship, in any sense. Life changed again, with a lot of free time spent with her, somewhat less on work, a lot less on code, and somewhat less on anime. I've fallen in love, and that provides a purpose in life. What exactly it is, I'm not sure, but it's there. Whatever it was that was missing, it's here now.

I know the answer "go fall in love" isn't very helpful. It's a tall order, that. By the way, I specifically *don't* mean go get laid. Or even just find someone with whom you can get laid regularly. If (when? call me a romantic) you manage to find someone, it'll be worth it. With luck, anyway, and I wish you the best of it. In the meantime, here's the solution I used that helped a lot:

Don't bother with purpose or meaning. Stop doing things you won't want to have done a week from now. Or at least stop some of them. Not sorta stop all of them, but pick a few and quit completely. Look to the future one week from now. Not three years, but not tomorow either. In a week, will I be gald I spent two hours playing UT? That's the question I asked myself, and I found the answer was no. So I started writing code. In a week, the project would be further along (with luck) and I'd be a better coder.

And to stop being long winded, don't worry about the purpose. Just make sure that when you ask yourself "What did I do last week that I'm glad I did?" the answer isn't nothing. Don't try to make it be "everything" either -- that's hopeless. Just make there be something on that list. You'll find purpose or meaning eventually, or decide you don't need it.

If you'd like more advice, email me. I'll be happy to share more, or just listen and respond.

Good luck in your travels, friend. The road ahead is hard, but it gets better.

Break a sweat (4.00 / 2) (#136)
by Hefty on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 11:56:31 AM EST

Exercise and a proper diet will often times elevate your mood and make it much easier to maintain a cheery attitude. When someone starts to worry to much it increases their stress levels. High levels of emotional stress actually consumes vital nutrients faster even at idle times when you are sitting or laying down. The number one way to remedy emotional stress is to exercise and eat nutrional healthy foods. You wouldn't believe how much a 30 minute weight lifting session will improve your mental health and emotional attitude. All the pent up worry, frustration, and anger gets vented out through the pysical activity of slinging some weight around. Plus, exercise makes you look better which also increases your self esteem. Me personally I can attest that if I get lazy and don't work out for months on end, I start to get fat, tired, cranky, and just plain depressed. I like to lift heavy weights and do some serious muscle ripping. At first weight lifting hurts because your muscles are not used to the activity. But after a few workout sessions your mind starts to understand what your body is going through. Your brain will release endorphins when you start lifting weights to conteract the physical stress on the muscles. Yes, lifting weights actually feels like a minor orgasm. Thats why people literally become addicted to weight lifting. Plus, weightlifting increases your sexual libido. I have been working out at least three times a week for at least 30 minutes at a time (usually more and longer) and immediately I have begun to see and feel a difference. I've gotten back into working out regularly for about four months solid again. Today, on a Monday of all things, I jumped outta bed and I feel like a million bucks.

Why? (4.00 / 3) (#137)
by Forum on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 11:57:40 AM EST

That's really the Universal question, the question that drives everyone, even if they don't know it. The answer is simple. 'Because.'

I dont know why I came back here, however it just so happened that I did, and it's definitely been an interesting trip since I've been gone. A lot can happen in six months.

Out of everything that's happened though, I've learned a lot, because that's what I do. I live, and I learn. Most of us should, but for some reason, don't. One of the biggest things I've learned is don't live for today, don't live for tomorrow. Don't live for then, don't live for now. Don't live for someone or something else, live for You. Live for yourself, because people, money, life, love, and most of all happiness, can come and go at less than a moment's notice, but You will ALWAYS be there. Life is, with the possibility of arguements on all sides, a one shot deal. We all got a fantastic chance to be a part of the most complex organism ever to exist, a planetary eco-system that thirves on itself. Enjoy it. Somehow survival was corrupted into trying to market yourself and your skills in order to accumulate posessions in a pathetic attempt to create your own happiness through the oblivion of mind numbing commerce. If you fall into that rut, you're doomed to fail. Live, love, and be happy, for yourself.

-forum

-- "When I walk down the street and only 3 or 4 shots are fired at me, I find it hard to stay awake." -HC
What as opposed to why (4.20 / 5) (#139)
by X-Nc on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 12:26:45 PM EST

I can tell you what gets me out of bed... My four year old son. He's up at 0730 or earlier every morning. He doesn't yet understand that weekends are for sleeping in.

The "why" is far to complex to even try and come up with an idea.

--
Aaahhhh!!!! My K5 subscription expired. Now I can't spell anymore.

Why must I be concious? (4.00 / 3) (#141)
by slaida1 on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 12:36:11 PM EST

Looking at small wild animals like birds or rodents, it feels like they must be really happy. They have a real mission because they can't understand the meaningless of their existence. To really start from clean table, I have to understand that we are just one instance of the possibilities that laws of nature permit in this universe. But unlike waves on water or burning fire, we can understand, we are self-aware. We know there's no absolute reason, plan , fate, destination or goal.

Are we too intelligent? Wouldn't it be easier to just think that making children is all there is and be happy with that like all other life forms are? On the other hand, we know there's nothing after death, it's just as meaningless state. It comes to us sooner or later so why hurry with it?

Take a look at what other people do: They place goals to aim for. Or they let other people to give'em the goals. Some take the easy way, listen nature's call and make a family with kids despite the fact that there's too many people already on this planet. Others escape reality in fiction or take drugs and get lost there.

Maybe it is so hard to be without goals because life isn't supposed to be without'em. Life must continue and there's no reasons backing up that statement. I realize that evolution as a survival of the fittest has become the survival of the most ignorant. Unfortunately ignorance in this matter is mostly mens 'privilege' as women must carry the child and use resources to that.

I wish you find your calling, be it family, sex, sports, arts or drugs. Just go out and try different things, maybe it eventually comes across.

Procrastinator! (none / 0) (#173)
by kimbly on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 06:39:27 PM EST

On the other hand, we know there's nothing after death, it's just as meaningless state. It comes to us sooner or later so why hurry with it?

Why put off until tomorrow what can be done today?

[ Parent ]

Maybe you need a new hat. (3.00 / 1) (#144)
by no carrier on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 01:10:58 PM EST

I've been working on this for quite some time, and here is what my team and I have come up with....

1. People are not wearing enough hats

2. Matter is energy. In the universe there are many energy fields which we cannot normally perceive. Some energies have a spiritual source which act upon a person's soul. However this soul does not exist ab initio as orthodox christianity teaches; it has to be brought into existence by a process of guided self observation. However this is rarely achieved due to man's unique ability to be distracted by every day trivia...

seriously, look inward, it's the only place you will find real answers. And if that doesn't work, go with the drugs, they at least make the scenery pretty ;)
----
I stab people.
So, what you're saying is.... (none / 0) (#168)
by Elkor on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 04:45:17 PM EST

that hats focus universal energy on unperceived wavelengths?

Hmmm, that would explain why people who wear baseball caps lose their hair. It must be focusing energy that kills off the hair follicles. :)

Regards,
Elkor


"I won't tell you how to love God if you don't tell me how to love myself."
-Margo Eve
[ Parent ]
Activism? Altruism? HellOOOOOOO? (3.50 / 4) (#145)
by greenrd on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 01:24:09 PM EST

I'm surprised that no-one seems to have even MENTIONED altruistic activities like activism yet - things done for other people outside one's social circle - things, dammit, done for the greater good of humanity, even. Is everyone here a selfish bastard? Or are all the activists too busy to reply to such a self-indulgent and obviously wrongheaded question? I suspect the latter.

Millions of people and animals are suffering around the world, and you say there's no PURPOSE in life? Wake UP, people!!!

I felt obliged to say this, to at least show that someone cares (or at least pretends to - don't take people at face value).


"Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes

Different strokes, etc. (none / 0) (#149)
by weirdling on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 02:19:20 PM EST

Problem is that many people *aren't* altruistic. Years of globetrotting have demonstrated to me that most problems men face in other parts of the world or even poorer parts of my part of the world are results of people doing stupid things when they should have known better, and fixing other peoples' *stupid* mistakes is not fulfilling to me.

What is fulfilling? I like to dabble in philosophy and computer science theory these days, just for the fun of it, while I keep body and soul together slaving for the man.

I'm not doing this again; last time no one believed it.
[ Parent ]
Activism (none / 0) (#158)
by gromm on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 03:01:37 PM EST

Not me. When I'm out of work (which has been a fair bit in the past few years) I typically fill my time with volunteer work of one sort or another. This time around, I'm volunteering for the local community policing station, work I intend to continue on weekends once I am employed.

At the same time, even though I do volunteer work like this, I still find your post self-absorbed. You obviously do not understand depression, a condition that can make the whole world seem grey to its sufferers, even when there is every reason to celebrate life. I have had friends who have gone through this exact phase (often referred to as mid-life crisis, although it doesn't necessarily happen when you're 40) and have myself gone through clinical depression. And the answer is not to get up and fight the world's ills, as that can worsen the feeling of hopelessness - especially if you're fighting for an impossible cause, like ending poverty.
Deus ex frigerifero
[ Parent ]
Um... (none / 0) (#165)
by trhurler on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 04:34:31 PM EST

If millions of people are suffering(which is true,) and you think I should do something about it(which is debatable,) how does it follow that doing so, even if I succeeded, would in fact give any meaning to life? The result would merely be even more people who didn't know why they were here or what the fuck they were doing.

I exist for my own sake. In that capacity, I do in fact help a lot of people(in fact, a lot more than most "activists" ever can,) but that is not my purpose per se. Get over it.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
It's about emotion, not logic (none / 0) (#200)
by greenrd on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 12:11:38 PM EST

how does it follow that doing so, even if I succeeded, would in fact give any meaning to life?

Either you get it or you don't. Or rather - logical argument won't convince you, only emotion.

The result would merely be even more people who didn't know why they were here or what the fuck they were doing.

Decadent middle-clast existential angst with a well-paid job is much preferable to being a poor sweatshop worker or prostitute. We can't eliminate suffering, but we can reduce (some of) the worst injustices.


"Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
[ Parent ]

Self destruction maybe? (none / 0) (#178)
by xj479 on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 09:32:51 PM EST

Self preservation (and that of others) does not lead us out of the system; acting in accordance with our will, not our genetic code, does. Yes, it's a little trite, but having a lone purpose in life that centers around "the containment and dissemination of our genetic material", as posted earlier, sounds more like a virus than anything else. Why do we feel the urge to get warm when we are cold, food when we are hungry, and sleep when we are tired? Because that's what we are programmed to do. Just like single celled organisms, but much more complex.

Not everything we do though, supports this system. Take art for example. Does it contribute to the great cause? Maybe, but not in a way I can see. This seems to be one of the things that separates us from simpler forms of life, an appreciation for self-destruction.

I'm not saying that violence or destruction is beautiful, just deliberate self-destruction, or absurdity, as someone had pointed out earlier. For example, many suicides are commited with the intent of escaping from some sort of pain, because pain is not what keeps us healthy and reproductive, being comfortable is. Humanitarian projects are a great thing, as is carrying on our existence, but they are not a means to liberation. Throwing your entire will in to the most trivial of acts, living as if you have a circular saw hacking it's way up your spine and through your skull (See "Tetsuo: The Ironman", or "Pi") however, does seem to be mindset for a higher form of conciousness.

[ Parent ]

art (none / 0) (#194)
by The Great Satan on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 10:02:29 AM EST

"Not everything we do though, supports this system. Take art for example. Does it contribute to the great cause? Maybe, but not in a way I can see."

Art either/or:

1) Helps to keep the artist distracted from the fact that he/she's an unpopular loser who can't get none. Thus the artist preserves itself for future mating oppurtunities when the artist might otherwise blow its head off from depression.

2) Helps to make the artist popular so that he/she can get some.
Check out my comic at www.shizit.net/alpha. Or take care of your post hardcore music needs at www.shizit.net. Or ignore this lame self-promotional spam.
[ Parent ]
To me...... (3.00 / 1) (#146)
by Hefty on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 01:45:20 PM EST

The essence of creativity, freedom, and living deliberately is the manifestation of energy. The energy of the universe flows through everything. The energy I speak of is powerful beyond all imagination. It's powerful enough to blast straight through this planet we live on and straight through you and me. I speak of energy where some people may substitute a word like "God". Energy is everywhere and it is in everything so in a sense it is God. Yet we live our lives and hardly notice or give it a second thought while we do those mundane things that we do. Yet us, in our living form, manipulate, create, and deliberately alter the physical energy that surround us. Imagine if you will the energy of the universe as an immense river beyond comprehensible size. In our lives, each and every action we perform and execute are like little pebbles thrown into this energy torrent. Yet these seemingly tiny, insignificant pebbles we call our lives somehow manage to create ripples in this immense energy and altar and change and make a difference. What's even more wonderful is that we as a human race are all creating and manipulating this energy. Each and everyone of our own ripples bounce into each other and effect and alter one another. They affect the time as we live now in the present, but also the time for the future and the people of the future. It makes you wonder, and think, that maybe that time I brushed my teeth this morning, if I hadn't of done that, then my breathe wouldn't have been fresh and I wouldn't have impressed that girl at the bus stop. Then, we wouldn't have gotten married and then we wouldn't have had a kid. Then, that kid wouldn't have grown up and became president, and that president wouldn't have legalized marijuana. Okay, it's fun to dream, it gives one hope to dream.

what else is there to do? (3.66 / 3) (#147)
by rabbit on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 02:06:36 PM EST

seriously.

I get out of bed because I have an overdeveloped sense of self-preservation. If I don't get out of bed, I won't get any work done. I don't get any work done, I won't get paid. If I don't get paid, this beautiful apartment, and that fridge full of food will cease to be mine.

As slartibartfast has said "the chances of finding out what's really going on in the universe are so absurdly remote that I just say 'hang the sense of it, and try to keep myself occupied...'"

Or some such.

If you're relgious, then you already have an answer: because god made you and, therefore, has some sort of plan for you. Presumably this plan does not involve dying in squalor.

If you're an atheist, like myself, then eventually you'll realize that there is no purpose. Life has no inherent meaning. It just is.


If your life is to have a purpose - if you are to have a reason to get out of bed - then it's going to have to be your own. Find something you like to do. Find a cause you care about. Find a girl. Make a list of all the things you want to do and get started on that list.

What do you want to do before you die?

Answer that question, then bust your ass.

-- I have desires that are not in accord with the status quo.
The same thing we do every night Pinky.... (3.00 / 3) (#148)
by DoctorDoom on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 02:15:55 PM EST

Try to take over the World!

...

Seriously... To control the destiny of this planet.


DoctorDoom "Pain? Pain is like love, like compassion! It is a thing for lesser men. What is pain to Doom?"

Existentialism (4.33 / 3) (#154)
by weirdling on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 02:40:04 PM EST

When I discovered a few years back that there was no external reason to live, I faced much the same symptoms you are describing. I almost dropped out of school. The only reason I even graduated was a strong goal: I wanted to join the Navy (didn't happen; long story). Then, I went to work for a .com, and things brightened up. For a while, I had that wonder that happens when you learn new things, but then it became largely the same old thing, over and over again.

So, here's my conclusion: my entire life has been a giant, protracted fight against boredom. Religion does not entertain me; neither does programming anymore, so, once again, I'm feeling bored and needful of a carreer change. So, I got back into reading philosophy and trying to understand the world in my spare time. Knowing and understanding are the things that drive me, I know from long experience, so that is what I must do to keep from being bored.

Also, while it is difficult to 'just do', finding a love partner of some sort can add an obvious dimension: having a woman (for me) that is beautiful and fascinating makes it worthwhile to continue keeping my job. She has a young child that needs a father figure. Being needed by someone else will go a long way to reducing existentialist angst *so long as you like that person*. There are a lot of single mothers out there that need a dependable man. It can be a pain, but it is also a challenge. Just a thought.

I'm not doing this again; last time no one believed it.
Why do I get out of bed in the morning? (3.00 / 1) (#159)
by rednecktek on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 03:06:45 PM EST

Simple ...

My wife says, "Get your #%&* @$$ out of bed. We're going to be late!"

Seriously, I'm truly lazy and have no sense of responsibilty or need for morals. If it wasn't for her and my children, I'd have died of starvation / boredom / gunshot-wound long ago.



Just remember, if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.
My person experience with this subject. (4.50 / 2) (#161)
by SlamboS on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 03:16:40 PM EST

When I was in fifth grade, I was a huge baseball fan. Every day I checked the scores or watched the game. I became obsessed with it and it eventually became my life. Until, one day, my grandma told me that it is only a game. I was saddened almost instantly - I was devoting my life to something that didn't really matter. I then looked around and tried to think of something that really mattered, that I could really care about after having a thought like that. I found that the only thing I really cared about was the question, "Am I wasting my life?" The only thing I really cared about was me. I think that's how it should be. I live to gather knowledge for my own enjoyment and to have fun, pretty much. That includes getting an education, because I like to just sit there and deeply ponder a subject sometimes.

I then realized that, after death, everything you've worked for would be lost. It's like spending a year trying to get the best MP3 collection (or whatever), and then having someone delete them all. It's kind of sad. If something like that happens, you feel like everything you've done is a waste. And, finally, a breakthrough. If I knew that my MP3 collection wouldn't be deleted, I wouldn't be wasting my time with it. If I know that I'll have all the time I wanted in life (immortality - at least of the mind), I would have a purpose. I think that the main reason we have these thoughts is because of our own fear of death and of the day when we can no longer think. One of my favorite dreams is when I die and find that I can still think.

After all this thought, I have come to the notion that everything you should do should be out of your own self interest. If you want to do drugs or find a girl, don't do it because you are scared of what other people will think. They are just living out their meaningless lives also. Work on getting rid of your fear of death. There is a possibility that, sometime far in the future, we will able to bring your mind back to life, and your collection of knowledge won't be lost. There is always a chance, so don't waste your time. Get out there and to it. (when you know what "it" is, you're ready to improve your own personal happiness. That's the reason you wrote this article.) You can also do stuff to get yourself remembered. To kind of make yourself live on in another way.

Ahh, whatever you want to do, do it.
/whois JohnGalt
Right on (to an extent) (4.00 / 1) (#184)
by MicroBerto on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 10:57:29 PM EST

I can't believe that I'm agreeing with a UMich student, but he's right to an extent! There is nothing wrong with a little bit of selfishness. My goal is to be happy without destroying the happiness of others. There are ways to enjoy yourself without making other people victims -- at which case, there's nothing wrong with doing things for yourself.

Go Bucks!

Berto
- GAIM: MicroBerto
Bertoline - My comic strip
[ Parent ]

What gets me out of bed is a feeling of usefulness (2.00 / 1) (#162)
by gromm on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 03:45:37 PM EST

Really. I've had stretches of my life when I had nothing to do. Literally nothing. This is great for the first week or so after you're laid off from one job or another, but after a while it gets tiring. I filled my time with looking for work, gaming, and the web, and occasionally reading. The feeling I get at times like this is a feeling of uselessness. I get grumpy, irritable and restless. Work gives me a goal to strive towards, and the feeling that I'm doing something of worth. It doesn't have to be terribly important. It doesn't have to change the world. I'm happy when it just keeps me from going insane. But strangely enough, I also find it fulfulling on a deeper level than just avoiding insanity. My work as a sysadmin is widely varied, with new non-trivial problems to solve on a regular basis. But then, that's because I've mostly done contract work, instead of building one network or a collection of servers and making it all stable. (and thus fixing all the problems and just showing up on occasion to fix things that break)

If you've done a really good job and thus have made yourself obsolete, you might try taking a more pro-active approach. Look around at the rest of the company and see what you can do to automate tasks that people hate. Find things that they do repetitively on their computers and do away with them. The solutions don't have to be fancy, you can just do it in PHP if possible. Or you can create services that you think would be useful, and test them on a few of your fellow employees. Undoubtedly, not everything would be successful, but hey, you can't be right *all* the time.
Deus ex frigerifero
Well, (4.66 / 3) (#166)
by trhurler on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 04:35:52 PM EST

The answer is that life is an end in itself, but by the time you understand that, you will long since have become weary of asking the question. To look for a purpose for living, which is not itself living, is a waste of your time.

Usually, doing so indicates that you are not in fact living.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

Eternal Conflict: Free yourself. (4.00 / 2) (#167)
by Mad Hughagi on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 04:44:21 PM EST

I think that society as a whole has degenerated into a sort of slimy apathetic state where most of us don't really think much more than putting the one foot in front of the other. Materialism and joy of the moment seem to be the driving force behind the majority of our actions; maximizing our egocentric hedonism.

Imagine things weren't so grey. Imagine someone put a timestamp on your water-sac and told you that with all certainty it would go bad before that time. Imagine you had a year, month, week or even a day. What would you do with that time?

Hopefully the same thing you're doing right now...

I often get the stirrings of a savage in my soul. Sometimes I think it is because I was raised in desolation for the early part of my life and that living in civilization fundamentally agitates me. Sometimes I think it is because I spend too much time struggling with the aspects of our modern age and how they often control us instead of the other way around. Sometimes I think it is a feeling of helplessness, that I'm simply a cog in the machine, churning out the next greatest thing for everyone to masturbate on and acclaim as the pinnacle of human achievement.

Then I usually read some physics, take a walk in the woods with my son, and realize that there is nothing greater to my existance than the fact that I can percieve the complexity and the beauty of the universe unfolding before me, and the fact that I am a part of that concious universe.

So in the end I think we make it up for ourselves. No book, person or experience is going to give you the answer, it's contained in the sum of your own subjective experiences. It's up to you to make the meaning. It's never complete, and I often fall into depressing states where it all seems cut and dried, mechanical and lifeless... but there is always the chance to turn the next page. It's not so much the ends, rather the process. Enjoy it while you can. Eventually the energy that is you will disipate into the giant morass of photonic fluctuations that will make up the end of time, and the only legacy that you leave behind will be your impression on the rest of the pattern. Make it sweet, and take what you can, but always remember that we're all part of the same sludge, and that perhaps a unified enjoyment of our existance would be more beneficial than a self-consuming destructive rat-race that will most certainly end in our mutual destruction, whether it come about through intention or ignorance.


HUGHAGI INDUSTRIES

We don't make the products you like, we make you like the products we make.

Variety. (5.00 / 1) (#170)
by broody on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 06:07:52 PM EST

This quote leads me to an immediate suggestion:

It feels like something that could be filled by quiting my desk job to go out deep in to the woods and living like a savage. Hunting wild animals, using nothing but my cunning and opposible digits, then smearing their warm blood over my naked body while I dance around the campfire.

Go into the woods and be a rampaging barbarian, goblin, or whatever strikes your fancy. Fight, kill, and die with foam weapons and get up and do it again. At night party, dance, drink, and sing. There are day long events, weekend campouts, and a great regional war called Ragnarok. The game is called Dagorhir Battlegames. I suggest you check it out.

Now for what I do...

I do a variety of things to keep myself balanced.

Hacking out some code, doing the books for the Green Party of Virginia, keeping up my website, or reading some spiffy book (fiction or non-fiction) that strikes my fancy keeps my mind alive.

The physical side I keep vibrant through Dagorhir battlegames, pull ups & jump rope, hiking, tweaking my diet, and sex.

Creative projects rejuvinate my life such building foam weapons, making armor, making drinking horns, building little things around the house, and playing with artistic projects.

I keep my social life alive by keeping in contact with old friends & family, spending time with my grrlfriend, and hanging out with people who encourage and empower me.

I keep my spirit alive with daydreaming, magikal practice (I hate when people call it work), meditation, occasional yoga, and just feeling all the bustle around me.

I believe that work is trading your life energy for the things. The trick is choosing which of them is worth your time and effort and attempting to work no more then you need to provide for yourself and perhaps others you wish to support.

I also keep lists of things I would like to do and try to follow through on them whenever I am bored. Some are activities, some orgainizing my home, some life goals, some places I wish to travel, and things I just wish to do before I perish.

Not every day is one that is for positive reasons. Some days I get up because I refuse to let a problem or person beat me at a task. Others I get up because I feel guilty, obligated, committed, or fearful. Fortunately these days become fewer and farther between the better I get to know myself and what I want out of life. When this starts to happen often I try to find what is out of balance or affecting me badly and change it.

YMMV.


~~ Whatever it takes
Misery loves company (none / 0) (#171)
by l0gichunt3r on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 06:20:21 PM EST

I often ask myself the same question and fall into depressive episodes, because of the lack of my plausible answers.

Sure everyone sounds upbeat and hopeful in their posts. It's easier to feel better about someone else's misery.

But who do you think you're fooling? We've all been there and we will all go back and one morning wake up and wish we hadn't.

Anyone with a little bit of sense will come to a point in their life and realize that unless something happens after they die, then they must really be wasting their time.

Some will immediately find religion after coming to this realization. Others will try to focus on day to day moments and become hedonistic in a primal fashion. Others will just simply give up and end their lives.

Me I've chosen a different path to religion. I'm a Christian, but my values are tempered with Buddhism. To me, there is an escape from this world that goes beyond death. It is a path nearly impossible to follow that lies along simple faith. It isn't about any particular set of rules or laws. It's mainly about a state of mind.

It's a hard path to walk and I often fall off. I have my depressive days still and am never the person I wish I could be. But I do feel it's the right path to try and follow.



BE HERE NOW (2.50 / 2) (#174)
by oleandrin on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 07:02:33 PM EST

NOW BE HERE

Variety (4.66 / 3) (#175)
by insect on Mon Aug 27, 2001 at 07:41:50 PM EST

I find that a large portion of my meaning of life is happiness - and the only way I've so far been able to ensure that is variety. Usually, when I start a job, I love it - the environment is new, the people are new, the challenges are new. After about a year, I get tired of the repetitive nature of it. I know that if I stay, I'll become depressed and my life will start to feel empty and meaningless. What do I do? I go and find something else! Jobs aren't the only thing I require variety in - lifestyle is another. In January, I began to tire of my traveling techie/tradeshow style job. I quit, took the money I had saved over the last several years, and moved to a commune in Ibiza, Spain for five months. The lifestyle was about as incredibly different as it could possibly be. Some of it I liked, some of it I didn't, but it certainly expanded my horizons and forced me to deal with new situations that I had never even considered before. Complacency is the killer. When things are comfortable, I have a set routine, and I know what to expect, there's nothing left to be excited about. Now, I'm back in the good ol' USA, and I'm in a bit of a funk 'cuz I can't find a job anywhere. However, seeing other parts of the world and meeting people from all over (including third world counties) makes me appreciate the seemingly boundless wealth we have here. I laugh at people who feel their lives have ended because they were laid off from their $50 or even $100 K/year programming jobs. Just driving around my suburbs, it's amazing to look at all the pretty houses, cars, landscaping, and incredible things people waste their money on (and I don't live in a rich neighborhood). I may be in a bit of a funk because I can't find a job at the moment, but I know it's a temporary condition, and I will find work, earn more money, save it, and go and find more incredible adventures! The world is an enormous place, and I know that no matter how hard I try, I won't be able to explore and experience all of it's glories before I die. But the reason I get out of bed every afternoon is because I know how wonderful life can be - and how wonderful this world is - and dammit, I'm going to experience every bit of it I can! I highly recommend travel. Sell your house, get rid of your mortgage, sell your car, move close to your job, bike/bus there or buy a cheap car you don't have to make payments on, save your money for a while, and GO SEE THIS WORLD. The rewards are infinitely more fulfilling than buying that next new car, toy, or bigger house - and they'll last forever, never break down, and make you a better person. And, once you realize that you are happy with what you can carry on your back and don't need all these nice new expensive shiny things, the freedom you derive from the realization is indescribable. So there.

A long road ahead... (none / 0) (#185)
by Leadfoot180 on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 01:18:18 AM EST

I am only a young'n, being 18 (19 within the next week), and I will be starting school at an institute in the downtown Atlanta area this October, so my current status as a teenager is idling. While I forced myself to get up in the morning to increase my income to help pay for expenses while I am away, the reasons for my eyes blinking at the bright sunlight from my bedroom window is not always as deep as it may seem. I am awake, but I lie there. I stare at the ceiling trying to convince myself whether or not I have a real reason to get up. I had a self-hating situation a year or so ago where I was forced to stay at Charter for a month or more. I had procrastinated in the past and not only did it virtually destroy me completely in academics, but also in the way I would handle my life. We are given the freedom to make our own choices and decisions on how we choose to run our life. Even on the second day at Charter, I seemed to get over all the terrible feelings I had about myself and quite possibly one of the more helpful inhabitants (I seemed to be of more help to those other kids than the counselors, whose experience seemed to date back to volunteer work on landscaping projects).

In the last few semesters of high school, I seemed to get my "act together." The laziness that was standard, now gone. I had became increasingly more responsible, excelling in amounts that I amazed even myself. I seem to get up at an exact time, had a layout of what to do in order in the morning laid out perfectly; shower, teeth, clothes, breakfast, materials for the day, off to school. Now that I am out of high school, I wait for that fateful day when classes start and I take another giant leap for my life.

I never did had a social, active lifestyle; I've never had friends/girlfriends (dating for that matter), I am terribly shy. What my main goals in life seemed to be (and continue to be) are productivity, success (in this condition, success in complete schoolwork and planting an impressive interface on my educational background), and self-gratification. I am not working hard on my studies and would in my future careers for admiration. I was never one to be a 'teachers pet.' I wanted to get what needed to get done completed and try to gain some new experience and something educational out of it as well.

Growing up around computers and technology, I advocate technology and science and that one giant step that man takes to better the life and environment surrounding us, so while other kids were out partying and enjoying life (in their own perspectives), I stayed in my room, secluded, reading on articles of futuristic characteristics of human cloning, defying gravity, human collaboration with machine, broadband, and everything that involves revoultionary changes in technology and commerce. Although, a portion of me still has the long interest of greek mythology, film, electronic music (perhaps technology helped me grow to love this genre to me?), and games at my own expense (those of the computer and console).

I am majoring in multimedia & web design, however, a part of me feels I may involve myself in something quite more larger and technical. I wake up to better myself intellectually, provide a seemingly 'well off' life, and to track the evergoing process of technology and man, and oh what a long road it is.

Adrenalin. (3.00 / 1) (#186)
by func on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 02:22:31 AM EST

Whitewater kayaking. Paragliding. Kitesurfing. Snowboarding. Huge-ass 3rd gear wheelies through traffic on a pseudo legal XR600 while I commute to work.

It doesn't work as well these days though; sometimes when the boss wants me in at 9 I don't get out of bed till 11. Alcohol isn't helping, and drugs don't look like a good solution either. I'm still alive, much to the surprise of my old friends, but I'm getting bored. Religion is a tired old joke. Had a cool science project going, trying to stabilize a rc heli with piezo gyros and accelerometers, but it was stolen along with everything else in the house - now I'm broke as well as bored.

I'd go travelling on the bike, but I got involved in this startup, see, and now I've got big debts and loads of shares, of questionable value. I almost wish the company would tank, just so I'd have an excuse to bug out. Stuck between wanting to experience life and wanting a return on the last 6 years of my life that I invested in this damn startup.

Ah well, buck up. Think I'll go fire up the XR and disturb the peace for a bit. Sometimes these problems solve themselves. Sometimes not.

Find a cause (3.00 / 1) (#187)
by Paul Johnson on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 04:28:34 AM EST

"He who has nothing to die for has nothing to live for".

Well, maybe I wouldn't put it that strongly myself. But its interesting that all your thoughts center around doing stuff for yourself, and then you wonder why there doesn't seem to be any point in it. The only thing where you do stuff for other people is your work, and you feel that you have been turned into a "tool" of others by it.

The thing that gets me out of bed is the desire to make the world a better place, even if only in a small way. In part that means working in a team with others, but towards a long-term goal which is worthwhile in itself.

So my advice to you is to find something and go for it. Does the planet need saving from anyone in particular? Do you know how the world could be made into a good and happy place? If so then do something about it.

On the other hand, maybe you are sliding towards clinical depression, in which case you should see a doctor. I'm serious about this. If you have days when getting out of bed seems like too much trouble then you have a genuine medical problem which needs dealing with.

Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.

Music and video games (5.00 / 1) (#188)
by Psy-Q on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 04:43:06 AM EST

These two things ARE life for me. Bands like Soilwork, Opeth, Children of Bodom and In Flames are my reasons to even breathe.

My job's secure and not very challenging, and my social life is so nonexistant that I'm basically rich, only because I rarely spend money on food/alcohol/drugs/clothing. I own every video and computer game that ever caught my interest, many of which I haven't even played because I spend all my time playing the others :P

I used to be creative, code a lot, write fun web pages. Gone are the times. Now I just wait for retirement so I can play more games and listen to more music while I await death.

A girlfriend would bring a lot of fun into life, but try finding one if you have the social graces of a hyena :)

Nice Taste!!! (none / 0) (#199)
by MicroBerto on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 11:55:47 AM EST

I'm into all the same kinds of music as you! Also a big fan of Grip Inc, Testament, Gardenian, Dark Tranquillity, Devin Townsend/Strapping Young Lad, Dream Theater... the list goes on. Join dalnet #mp3_metal and #mp3_death if you're interested in more!

God those bands get me riled up... that's what it's all about!

Berto
- GAIM: MicroBerto
Bertoline - My comic strip
[ Parent ]

Thanks :) (none / 0) (#211)
by Psy-Q on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 07:58:03 AM EST

Testament and Soilwork or Arch Enemy have a few similarities, I like many of their songs too.

I checked out those channels but it looked like pretty much standard mp3 trading. I also found #mp3_metal2 which seems to be the matching discussion channel. Hope it's fun :)

I used to be on EFNet #metalmp3 and #metal a lot, but that was 3 or 4 years ago. I don't think the channels even exist anymore, but then again I can't find any EFNet servers either..

Oh well, see ya there.

[ Parent ]
Is K5 depression central? (4.00 / 2) (#189)
by Herring on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 05:38:34 AM EST

It's starting to seem that way. Maybe you're missing the manufacturers of fluoxetine on your sponsors list.

Why do I get up? Because my son's yelling and trying to climb out of his cot. Because I have to go to a job that sucks, but it pays well. On good days there's wakeboarding and/or beer.

Could be worse - could be raining.


Say lol what again motherfucker, say lol what again, I dare you, no I double dare you
a question (none / 0) (#191)
by dakaktus on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 06:54:18 AM EST

well, in a moment. firstly, i get up in the morning to enjoy life :) often that means getting up and waiting for the weekend, or something like that...

im 18, in perth australia and doing a software engineering degree (1st year). i reckon ill take next year off uni to just fuck around and have fun, get away from my parents, maybe travel *shrug* who knows :) should be good.

i think more of you should do that, ie: take a break and do something fresh and new, stop working for the future like theres no today. its my view that when your old you should think back and say "yeap... i had about the most fun i could back then" :) isnt that what being youngs all about?

on that note, heres my question; after uni im thinking of working 5 years doing short term contracts (6 months or so). and then spending the money i save on a good time, and after that consider investing in my future. do you guys know if these short term contracts are generally easy to come by as a programmer/computer person?

Its something i'd looove to do before i get tired down to things like family, property etc etc... which has its benefits too.

and people, lighten up: "today is the first day of the rest of your lives" ja?

Dunno how it works in Oz, but ... (none / 0) (#192)
by Herring on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 09:14:11 AM EST

(from a UK perspective) it might well be worth trying to get a year or two's permie work under your belt before contracting. Dull, I know, but a track record helps tons. Once you've got that first contract, providing you don't fuck up too badly, you're away. Unfortunately, the world is full of PHBs who will only understand qualifications & experience - solving the tower of Hanoi in 4 lines of lisp means nothing to them.

If you can do it, then it should be top way to live - contract for 9 months, holiday for 3 and still be able to put some dough away.


Say lol what again motherfucker, say lol what again, I dare you, no I double dare you
[ Parent ]
Actually, it's all very easy to me (4.00 / 1) (#193)
by moeffju on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 09:25:56 AM EST

I found the purpose of living in living. Be spontaneuos, don't get under the pressure of "always faster". Learn to spend time doing "nothing useful" (which will actually act as time generating ideas, thinking about what happened, and so on).

Live to see what will happen next, and, if you want, try to get as much knowledge as you can in order to understand everything better. This can even be fun :)

If you want to read something to hopefully cheer you up, you should read Thomas Nagel, he's "pretty cool".


See the World! (2.00 / 1) (#196)
by mals on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 10:17:02 AM EST

I haven't done this yet but I think if you travel around the world and admire the world for what it is: beautiful, it will make everyday worth living and experiencing. While travelling around the world, just gaze at the beauty of somethings. For example, a sunset or the brilliance of the star filled night sky or just even the beauty of a garden filled with flowers. Once, I'm out of university I plan to do just.

Also, one thing that keeps me going is just looking up at the night sky and hoping that the question of whether or not we are alone in this vast universe will be answered. I guess that the hope that we are part of something greater in the universe is satisfaction enough for me and makes life worth living.

Mal

habit and too scared to kill myself. (4.00 / 1) (#203)
by coffee17 on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 03:55:54 PM EST

I've been trained to get up and go to work, and so I do. However I'm very sick of it, and wish that my depression would reach the state where I wouldn't get up in the morning and just watch life crumble around me. But I'm not there yet. In 2.5 weeks or sooner, I'll quit my job, and I'm accepting the hospitality of a kind canuck and hoping to try and start over in some 24-32 hour a week job (actually hourly, instead of salaried with some inept manager constantly trying to pile more work on your plate) which doesn't require me to think. I'll think on my own time, thank you. Hopefully this will be less bad than my current life.

And if it's not, it will soon be winter in canada, and hypothermia seems like a nice enough way to die (I like the cold), and hopefully slow enough that my rational self can get it past my emotional self.

-coffee


Cold is good . . . (none / 0) (#208)
by The Great Satan on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 10:00:41 PM EST

but if you're still young you ought to hold on a bit longer. A few years can make a big difference if you stay focused on your goals (assuming you've figured out what they are. If you haven't, there's your first task).

BTW, comics are dead. Pity.
Check out my comic at www.shizit.net/alpha. Or take care of your post hardcore music needs at www.shizit.net. Or ignore this lame self-promotional spam.
[ Parent ]
hold on a bit longer? (none / 0) (#214)
by coffee17 on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 01:03:19 PM EST

If someone had just been badly mugged, would you ask them if it's all right if you give them a kick in the shins and take a mere $5 ... after all he's been thru, what's something so minor. I see asking what's a few years to be quite similar and in poor taste.

Also old is relative. I'm old to some people, young to others. What counts is that I'm old to myself.

As for goals, I have no goals. While I hate cliches, "life is a journey, not a destination." seems to work fairly well. I'd like to just enjoy the journey (that could be interpreted loosely as a goal), but I'm either in a bad spot, or a neutral spot of distraction. When things never become good, I ask why bother? (hint: it's a rhetorical question)

-coffee


[ Parent ]

Let me mug you again then. (none / 0) (#230)
by The Great Satan on Thu Aug 30, 2001 at 12:34:18 PM EST

Poor taste is also relative. You're right, the universe itself doesn't care about you or me or anyone else here. From that point of view, you are either prey or you fight back. If you're willing to die then don't complain if someone is willing to eat you. Those of us who want to live are hungry. On the other hand, some of us would like to see you live. If you're here you're smart, and if you're smart you're needed. The world, as it is, isn't exactly friendly to the interests of intelligent, non-conformist thinkers. If you're in that group (if it can be called a group), your death is a loss to me personally.

It sounds like you, and a lot of other people here, have reached the point where you will either give up on yourself and die or your downward spiral will stop. I don't know if this happens to everyone, but it does happen. Suddenly the thought of giving up/dying becomes so repulsive that you will do anything not to lose. Most likely this is what will happen to you, it is not an easy thing to actually let yourself die. Good luck getting through it.
Check out my comic at www.shizit.net/alpha. Or take care of your post hardcore music needs at www.shizit.net. Or ignore this lame self-promotional spam.
[ Parent ]
The solution (4.00 / 1) (#204)
by primz9 on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 08:09:14 PM EST

Well, usually I'm just a clam on the side, reading K5, and never submitting - In fact, I signed up for an account just to post on this rather popular thread. Here is my story.

I've been working full time for 3 years, did high school from home, had no social life, and became depressed. At the start of this year, I met a beautiful girl, and saw there was more to life than working at a dot com.

7 Months later, I walked out the door one wednesday evening, and never went back. Posted my resignation, got my holiday leave, and am now unemployed renting an expensive house in a rich suburb, and about to run out of funds in the next few weeks. But, I don't care. I could no longer wake up and code meaningless shit all day, so here I am.

Next week I'm going to apply for a job at a cafe, making coffees, just to be different, for life to be a little stress free. I'm excited, scared I can't pay the rent, and worried I'll be living with my parents again, but it's different, and I'm enjoying being my own age for once. The grass is definetly harder on the other side, but worth the change. So to answer the question, I no longer get out of bed in the morning, I just sit-up and read.

Cheers,

Nick.
primz.com

Congratulations! (none / 0) (#217)
by Peat on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 03:53:09 PM EST

Two years ago, I was putting in sixty hours a week at a dot com. On my birthday, I quit - left my laptop and palm pilot on my chair, and walked out. Instead of renting an expensive house, I blew all my money in Europe.

I came back owing my bank money, and with a nasty case of tonsilitis coupled with mono. I had to move back in with my parents for a couple of months while I found employment freelancing as a photographer's assistant and doing odd web jobs on the side.

So it was rough for a while, but I've made it work for me - it's a year later, and I don't have any debt, I'm making the money I need to make, I'm doing more traveling, and I'm much, much happier.

Quitting my job was the best decision I've ever made. I hope it works out for you! :)



bigbluebang internet services - hosting, consulting, tools, and more.
[ Parent ]
I used to be like this.. (none / 0) (#206)
by bsdave on Tue Aug 28, 2001 at 09:32:33 PM EST

I have 3 sil-ah-bulls for you, cann-ah-bis.
--
Daaave

i work i sleep i work i sleep (none / 0) (#209)
by f0ng on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 05:39:03 AM EST

I drive an hour each way to a barely tolerable job and am about to move an hour in the opposite direction giving me an extra hour to wallow in my own miserable thoughts as I lurch across the moderatley serene landscape. I am attempting to do some consulting but am not as of yet having much luck, if there were only five more hours each day, if.

Being prudent is over rated (4.50 / 2) (#210)
by pontulla on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 06:55:58 AM EST

It seems as the years have gone by, society has imposed more and more rules and regulations on us. (all for our own "good") We have lost more and more personal freedoms and have less and less control. We are told how we should be, what our goals should be, and how we should go about attaining them. The human element is with us less...have you tried to call a businss, a utility company, or God forbid the IRS? It takes ingenuity and patience to actually talk to a person. Most of the time if you do get a person, they don't know or they don't care. So why do we put up with this shit? Why should we always be prudent? Assuming we aren't dealing with a psycopath, then perhaps we need to listen to ourselves more, find out what would be a way to live that would be meaningful, and even more importantly, fun. Yes, fun. What kind of life is it when getting out of bed means facing a day doing something you really don't want to be doing? That's not life. That's jail time for the mind and spirit, and if you do it long enough it's a death sentence for that spirit. So where do you end up? Depressed, physically sick, totally stuck, and having "lost" yourself somewhere along the way. You find yourself unable to remember what it was like when life was exciting, an adventure, energizing, fun. When our lives weren't ordered by expectations and rules and shoulds. When we didn't ask ourselves what's the point? So what do we do? I think maybe by starting with doing something totally radical, doing something or going somewhere just for the hell of it. We might consider opening our hearts, our minds and remembering that anything is possible, but first we have to believe that's true. It's also true we need food, clothing, and shelter. But we need to feed our spirits, as well. We need to remember how to laugh, to have fun, ... not always being sensible, prudent, responsible, and trying to live up to the expectations people have of us and the ones we have of ourselves. I wonder how did I get to this place? I'm sure trying like hell to get out of it. I'm committed to it. One of these days I'm going to wake up and be excited that it's a new day and anything is possible. And that it just might be a whole lot of fun, too.
Cheers, Pontulla






Computer Consulting (none / 0) (#212)
by mbac on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 11:12:40 AM EST

I'm surpised hardly anyone has mentioned this.

Stuck in a boring, unsatisfying, but well paying job? Feel like an asshole because you're bitching about something that the common person would only be so lucky to have? Try becoming an independent consultant.

The Computer Consultants Handbook (see Amazon) is a great resource for anyone considering making the leap, and is chock full of instructions on all of the messy details.

And the difficulty in running your own business is overrated. You've seen hundreds of slobs who run successful businesses. Believing that you, an intelligent kuro5hin reading individual is somehow less capable than some of these slobs is an insult.

Your results may vary, but.. while finding permanent employment may be difficult, I'm not seeing any shortage in demand for independent consultants.

I'm certainly not an expert since I've been doing this for less than a year, but it's certainly worth considering.



Motorcycle. (none / 0) (#213)
by MercyBeat on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 11:23:49 AM EST

Every morning I wake up... Play alittle with my child and then I look forward to jumping on my motorcycle and hitting the highway to work. I think it's because when I get on a motorcycle I think only of the ride ahead. Will I lock up the brakes today? Will I get cut off? Will a Mini-Van try to push me out of my lane? These little problems have a way of removing everything else that matters from my mind. The result is that when I walk into work I'm not thinking about the task's ahead of me. I'm thinking what a great ride into work I had. Then when I'm ready to leave for the day.... The office presure is discarded in the parking garage just before I throw my right leg over my bike. By the time I get home I'm ready to be with my family.

I guess the real point is that you need something that is yours. Sitting in a car with a pager, cell phone, and radio does not do it for me. I need to be able to focus on something that i really enjoy that is not work related. Before the bike my hobby was my job. And I brought the work home with me every night. Now I bring myself home.
"Staying alive is just part of the mission." --TKK

Whats a man got left to fight for when he's bought his freedom.
Something New. (4.00 / 1) (#216)
by Peat on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 03:39:43 PM EST

The only reason I get out of bed is for something new. I don't mean buying stuff - I mean experiencing new things, which I find incredibly stimulating. What exactly I want is really dependant on the day: Some days I really do want to spend eighteen hours in front of a computer, hacking away at a tool or doing a little "free associative research" on the 'net. Other days, I want the challenge of finding new routes at the bouldering gym. Often I get a bug to spend the day taking pictures. Sometimes I just want a beer and a movie at the local second-run theater.

Of course, I have to figure out how to balance my professional life with my personal life - I think I've got a good start on it by employing myself with my interests. I'm a webmaster at a small outdoor equipment shop (that covers a bit of the geek, and a bit of the rock climber in me), and I freelance as a photographer and commercial assistant (which covers a bit of artistic ground). I help my girlfriend with occasional design projects. I build websites for friends. I do a lot of odd jobs.

On average, I "work" four days a week. I'm able to save enough money to travel (Hong Kong in December, New Zealand in February), eat out, and enjoy my spare time. Of course, I have minimal financial responsibilities - no debts (no credit cards or loans), no car (payments or gas), and I'm a pretty frugal shopper ... except when it comes to camera gear. That's where I have to watch my step!

I guess the qualifier for all this is the fact that I'm 22. I don't have a family of my own, and like I mentioned before, my financial responsibilities are minimal. But I expect my current situation to scale reasonably as I sort out the things in my life which no longer interest me, and focus on the one or two things that I enjoy and can sustain me (and perhaps a family) financially.

So, that's what gets me out of bed in the morning. I enjoy doing what I do, and what I do seems to be working for me!



bigbluebang internet services - hosting, consulting, tools, and more.
Depressing (5.00 / 2) (#218)
by laotzu on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 04:45:12 PM EST

I'm suprised by the insane amount of depressing posts on this topic. I thought lots of people would have interesting things to say. I thought people would argue, 'xj479, I love my life!'. Apparently I'm wrong. Maybe I'm the only person in the universe who loves their life.

I wake up in the morning at 5:45, and I'm out of the house in 15 minutes to drive downtown. I like being up early because there isn't any traffic to contend with. I get into work by 6:30, despite the fact that the office isn't open until 8. Why? I god damn love my job. I'm a computer programmer with a petroleum engineering firm. I get to sit infront of a computer 8 hours a day and program. I love programming. I get interesting problems to solve, then I get to make interesting solutions to them, and then I get to take my ideas and write them in such a precise and wonderful language that can never be misunderstood. When I write it, the computer knows what I mean.

At 4:30, the office closes and I head home. Often a few minutes early. I go home, I grab my laptop, and I flop into bed for the night. The laptop connects to my stereo and movies or music flow out around me. I spend most of the evening writting, working, or talking online or on the phone with the long-distance love of my life. It's perfect for me.

Enough about me, though. Why do are so many people not like this? Why can dozens of people login to K5, see this article, and instantly post their depressiveness. Why is it so common that people have nothing happy to say about this kind of topic? Isn't that the purpose of life? To be happy? You people are spending your lives miserable, ... why?

Hierarchical rank, please. (none / 0) (#229)
by The Great Satan on Thu Aug 30, 2001 at 11:36:18 AM EST

Just curious, alpha or omega?
Check out my comic at www.shizit.net/alpha. Or take care of your post hardcore music needs at www.shizit.net. Or ignore this lame self-promotional spam.
[ Parent ]
Response: "Depressing" (4.00 / 1) (#240)
by pontulla on Tue Sep 04, 2001 at 05:30:40 PM EST

You are not alone in loving life. I believe people who are not presently loving life have more of a need to talk about it, in the search for a solution and finding solace in that they are not alone. Of course there are those that enjoy misery as well as complaining about it.
As for myself I have been very much in love with life, and not in love with it at all. Everything changes. I think those experiencing a loss of that love have to make much effort to gain or regain that place. Nobody can do it for us. It is our very own responsibility.
Pontulla

[ Parent ]
Separate life from work... (5.00 / 5) (#244)
by Evo on Mon Sep 10, 2001 at 12:29:50 AM EST

I don't hate life. Far from it. Comparing it to the other form of existence, i.e. DEATH, it's pretty friggin' peachy.

And while I don't hate my job, I don't gush with effervescent ooze when I think about it, either. It's a job, just like every other job. Where I get off track, and it sounds like most others who responded did too, is that we don't really like trying to scratch and claw our way through this society that we've created for our selves.

Let me give you an example of what I mean. You enjoy your job, self admittedly. But for eleven hours every day (by your timelines) you do it. And I assume you make a pretty good living at it, or at least more than enough to get by. You also seem to enjoy your "life" outside of work to, regardless of the fact it's tied to your laptop. Hey, I ain't judging or commenting here. There is no one right way to live.

What if you could change the society we live in so that things were reversed. Rather than work eleven hours and "play" for five-- flip it. Would you prefer to have 11 hours of leisure, 5 of work and keep the other 8 for snoozy-time? (--> checking the calculator: 11 + 5 + 8 = 24. Good.) Would that make you happier? Would that cause you to jump out of bed even more happily than you are today?

Why isn't that possible? And don't give me that "society doesn't work that way" crap. Society works how ever we decide it will. We CREATED society. If things don't work the way we want them to, we change them. Period. No one is gonna do it for us. And the first step in making that change is for enough of us to sound like malcontents and start bitching about the way things work around here. No one checked with me before they made the rules, so I really don't feel like playing by them. When we all start to speak with a common tone in our voice, we just might be ready to make some changes around here.

(--> Stepping off my soap box. Anyone else want a turn?)

Evo
"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place. - Jonathan Swift"
[ Parent ]
Working less playing more (4.00 / 5) (#247)
by k31 on Wed Sep 12, 2001 at 03:22:04 PM EST

I agree that society is set up in a way that we didn't agree to... that isn't democracy; if the previous generation (mostly retired anyways) wants to keep working 8 to 11+ hours a day, let them, but I want to work 3 to 4 hours a day, 4 days a week or less, and spend the rest of time doing whatever it is that I'm interested in... from spending time with friends and family to doing pure research into programming/computers/human-machine interfaces to learning how to fly.

School should also have the option of being a few hours a day; or even better, just exams; or even best, more like a free lab for experimentation.

Set out a syllabus and eventually everyone who is interested will complete it, at their own pace.

Humans are supposed to be smarter than animals... why then is it that we work more, sleep less, and generally commit slow suicide, and call it making a living?

Your dollar is you only Word, the wrath of it your only fear. He who has an EAR to hear....
[ Parent ]
what was it lester burnham said? (none / 0) (#220)
by steeef on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 05:51:06 PM EST

"And then I remember to relax, and stop trying to hold on to it, and then it flows through me like rain and I can't feel anything but gratitude for every single moment of my stupid little life..." that's kind of how i feel. whenever i start feeling like there's nothing worth getting up for, i take a step back and think about all the things i've seen in my short life, and how much i have left to experience. just looking up at the stars helps too. to realize there's so much in the universe that i have no idea about makes me more interested in getting out of bed, so that i can learn something new.

The perfect surreal reason (none / 0) (#223)
by jmvidal on Wed Aug 29, 2001 at 10:37:54 PM EST

"Every morning I wake up wondering what fascinating new thing this genius Salvador Dali will dream up today" -- Salvador Dali

early adolescence.. (none / 0) (#225)
by Psychopath on Thu Aug 30, 2001 at 10:17:31 AM EST

.. isn't just fun either.
I wouldn't say anymore that I am a kid (with 18 years) but I wouldn't say I am really grown up either. And already life is not great fun, seems quite useless to me, seems boring.
..life goes on long after the thrill of living is gone.. -- John Cougar
J.
--
The only antidote to mental suffering is physical pain. -- Karl Marx
popularity problems? (5.00 / 1) (#228)
by The Great Satan on Thu Aug 30, 2001 at 11:34:14 AM EST

I was going to try the advice thing but it would sound stupid if you're not the outcast type. Not that I should be giving advice, but I'm a few years down the road from where you are, and glad of it. I at least want to say that the late teen years are extraordinarily bad, especially if you're intelligent and not so popular. In all likelihood you can look forward to things getting a lot better.
Check out my comic at www.shizit.net/alpha. Or take care of your post hardcore music needs at www.shizit.net. Or ignore this lame self-promotional spam.
[ Parent ]
there's nothing new under the sun (none / 0) (#226)
by muse10 on Thu Aug 30, 2001 at 11:20:29 AM EST

ever read the book of ecclesiastes? a priest at the jesuit school i attended said that it was just depressing, but i think knowing what is REAL is comforting... the writer, king solomon, had tried his hand at many different pursuits. he ends the book by saying something along the lines of: "the conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is this: fear the true god and keep his commandments. for this is the whole obligation of man."

so that's what i try to do: to wrap my life around service of god and helping other people. am i in a constant state of ecstasy? not quite. but at least i feel like my 70-80 year (at best) allotment will have been worth something.

mornings... (none / 0) (#227)
by hummybird on Thu Aug 30, 2001 at 11:31:58 AM EST

The driving force for me is usually the need to pee.

I'm not finished building me (none / 0) (#232)
by Jag on Mon Sep 03, 2001 at 01:21:36 AM EST

My job and my hobbie are one and the same. Although I enjoy doing my work I prefer working on my own projects so I'm not into working overtime.

There are so many things to look forward too.

1) I take classes, my goal is to be the best, there are currently others better than me, I'm trying to close the gap.

2) I have numerous projects of my own that all want to eat my time.

3) I have a wonderful wife who I don't see enough of as it is.

4) There are more interesting people to talk to off and on line than I'll ever be able to speak with.

5) Books, when this world is to mundane try someone elses.

As it is, I have a hard time sleeping because I'm never done with the day.

-- Jag

Lot's of reasons. (none / 0) (#233)
by gavk on Mon Sep 03, 2001 at 08:24:05 AM EST

I may be a bit different than a lot of the posts I've read today.

I'm not actually happy ATM, but it'll pass...

I haven't been laid off, I'm just bored w/ my job coz I've been here for over a year, and bored with Amsterdam coz it's too damn small and I've been here over 2 years...

Anyway - Why do I get up?

I live in a different country (Netherlands) from the one I grew up in (UK), and before I came here I moved from where I was born (Glasgow, Scotland) to London for a few years.

My wife is Russian (From Moscow) and *THAT* makes life interesting (Going to Moscow for 9 days this month :-)

We've just signed up for a course to learn French, and then we're going to move to Paris.

My job (Although currently boring and annoying, (all work is, hence the name and why they pay you)) - I still love what I do (UNIX Systems Architect) and I have my network at home to play with... (Making a machine respond to voice commands at the mo :-)

Why do I get up? Coz if I didn't I wouldn't get to keep doing this...

fear of pain (5.00 / 1) (#236)
by anonymous cowerd on Mon Sep 03, 2001 at 09:16:49 PM EST

...of course. In my old age all my positive hopes upon this drear ball of sorrow have perished, but haven't you ever been really really poor and hungry? Not "gee I'd enjoy a Big Mac just now" hungry but "I haven't had a paying job for eighteen months and I've lost thirty pounds of body weight this year and I get faint when I stand up quickly" hungry? You can bet your fucking ass I'm not willingly going through that again, and unlike my dead old Dad I'm not going to subject my children to it, either.

Was educational though. You know there are vast tracts all over this globe where in consequence of some conjunction of "market forces" pretty much everybody is as hungry, all the time? Yet there are a half dozen luck-struck stuck up assholes who post here regularly, think they're somehow mystically exempt from what Jesus Sirach said:

...the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

and choked up by black spite as I am, there's few things I'd enjoy more, if only I could arrange it, than to to grab 'em and tie 'em up and dye 'em black and ship 'em off some bureaucracy-free libertarian paradise like Somalia so they could experience something roughly similar for a year or two too. If they survived, sure would wipe that disgusting smug self satisfied smirk right off their stupid God damned faces; and if, alas, they died instead, at least they'd be grinning a different sort of grin...

Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net

The one thing that really disturbs me about America is that people don't like to read. - Keith Richards

Why do you get out of bed in the morning? | 248 comments (245 topical, 3 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!