My issue is this. I lump "meditation" under the same general category as pyramid nonsense, color therapy, chakras, astral projection, and all the other vaguely new-age nonsense: absurd.
My issue is this, I lump "you" in with all the other people who feel the need to make a comment that will obviously piss people off without really having anything worthwhile to say: troll.
Other than forcing yourself to slow and mediate your respiration, which I suppose could have a calming effect, meditation produces very little, if any, actual benefits that I can see.
Okay, does this support your claim that meditation is this the same or different than daydreaming? What's your point, why are you bringing it up?
I'm not particularly interested in the dictionary definition, thanks. I'm looking at the actual practice: You say you're "meditating" when you're sort of staring off into space with unfocused eyes, or maybe just focusing on a particular point without any concious effort. You let your mind wander, but you dont' really direct it - it goes where it goes, though you're fully aware and are paying attention to those thoughts. The rest of the world seems to kind of fade away, and you lose track of yourself and the external world, but bizarrely and somewhat paradoxically, you're also accutely aware of the external world. This is how I experience daydreaming, and it is, in essence, how meditation is described as well. The only fundamental difference is I left out the "Zen" part, and didn't mention breathing.
Look, do you want to talk practice? Then tell me about your experience of meditation. Don't say you want to talk about practice and then trot out the line "how meditation is described as well." Described by who? Yourself? Or someone else? Please.
Actually I too am, and have been, talking about the practice of meditation vs. daydreaming: I just figured giving you the dictionary defintions might help us start off on the same foot. However, I see that that would too easily nullify your 'point,' so I can understand how you'd want to throw that out right away. But if you want to talk practice, let's talk practice.
Meditation means different things to different people, and in turn it acquires a different meaning through practice. It shifts and does not remain one way. And it is a practice, that means you do it over and over and it changes. Maybe if you've tried learning an instrument you might better understand, it's the same way: when you start you are playing scales and whole tones, maybe you start doing some more sight reading, maybe you start adding some improv to your practice, maybe later you start being able to play for longer, and later maybe you start trying different styles, expanding your repatoire. Meditation is similar in that regard. It does not remain the same, and it isn't the same for two different people.
Now the fact is, when you state that it is the same as daydreaming, you are saying one of two things: your experience with meditation is the only valid one in terms of determining 'what it is,' or that you've never actually tried it and you don't really know what it is, but still somehow feel qualified to make an authoritative statement about what it is. You are a troll, but it upsets you to hear me call you that, so you try to defend yourself, but there is no defense. If you'd just accept it, you'd probably be much happier.
So the next time my boss wanders by and sees me with that thousand-yard-stare as I'm drifting off into some unknown waking dream, and he barks "kitten, quit daydreaming and get back to work!" I'll simply say, "I'm not daydreaming, I'm meditating!"
I'm sorry, this is just bullshit; what are you trying to say? That your boss would sanction your behavior if you were meditating but not if you were daydreaming? Did I even remotely suggest any such thing was viable? I don't know of any workplaces where either is acceptable on working hours. When you are at work, you are expected to be working at whatever you were hired to do, not meditating or daydreaming. This is more nonsense. Don't try to pass it off as something clever, or even remotely as an argument.
This is a discussion site, and that's my contribution. It's not as though I'm the only one who made a comment about it, and my initial comment was not "deliberately provocative and insulting" as you say. It was a one-sentence statement of my opinion: "Fancy word for daydreaming." Suddenly you're all screaming for my head on a platter because horror of horrors, I made a snide remark about your enlightened art.
I never said you couldn't have your opinion. But I maintain that the act of posting a one sentence response to a story about Zen equating meditation with daydreaming is nothing more than a troll. It may be your opinion, you may even have some sort of basis for it (actually, I hope you do; otherwise you're really a fool), but it remains a classic troll. You've given me no reason to believe otherwise. And as far as discussing, here we are, on the discussion site, discussing. Did you just want everyone to keep quiet after you posted your simplistic nonsense? Sounds like you are the one that doesn't understand what discussion is.
Here's another: If you can get that upset over a one-sentence remark, then it looks to me like your meditation isn't doing all that much for you.
So, are you saying that meditation has the benefit of helping one control one's anger or emotions in general? This seems to go against your idea that it was the same as daydreaming. Because, between the two of us, you are the first one to make this claim. Or does daydreaming help one keep cool?
Oh, and I never said that I meditated. You made that assumption. Of course, now I will state that I have meditated, so we can get that out of the way. But just because I meditate doesn't mean I want to throw my emotions out the door. Why do you think I should? Being detached doesn't mean I don't get angry or sad or whatever. It means I have some more perspective, and can better, more effectively act on my emotions. If I were to remove my emotions, I would be a robot, a zombie. I would not be human. Meditation, if I let it, has the power to make me more human, not less. And lest you pull up the 'holier-than-thou,' 'enlightened art' stuff again, let me just say: being more human means acknowledging my weaknesses, it means trying to honestly understand my condition. Meditation does not make me better than anyone else, in fact if anything it makes me realize more that I'm no better than anyone.
Yes, your statement made me angry, but I don't apologize for that--what you said was foolish, and intended to provoke. You're still incapable of defending against that charge.
Maybe you aren't keeping up on current events here. I did not make an assertion - the author of this story did. I was merely rejecting it. My drug metaphor is perfectly valid. The drug user blithers on about the mind-expanding aspects of drug use, how it relaxes you, lets you explore possibilities, frees your conciousness, blah blah blah. The meditation advocate does the same thing. I reject both. The assertion was, "Meditation does x and is good." The burden of proof does not lie on me.
Sure, you were responding to the story, but with my last statement I was responding to your analogy of meditation with drug use. Please don't take my statements out of context, or try to twist what I was saying. I merely challenge your comment that meditation is synonymous with daydreaming, and I assert that either you have never tried it with sincerity, or you are a troll, and possibly both. Please respond to that assertion rather than the presupposition that I agree unconditionally with all statements that the poster of the original story which you were responding to made.
I have given you my opinion, several times. See above. You've chosen to ignore it each time and instead, try to psychoanalyze me, assume I have emotional issues, or am deliberately stirring the hornet's nest, or am wholly ignorant, or any number of other excuses you've pulled out to ignore my opinion that daydreaming is just meditation without the high-minded rationalization.
Yeah, I guess you have given me your opinion several times, and I just keep telling you what I think about it! That's what this thread is about, actually: I think you're full of shit. You just don't think you should have to hear it. Every point you've raised I've responded to, and I keep coming back to the same thing: you've never tried meditation sincerely, or you are a troll, or both. I'll keep handing it out if you keep asking for it.
[ Parent ]