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[P]
My Lysergic Acid Diethylamide Life

By tuj in Culture
Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:18:57 PM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)
Culture

LSD has played an important part in my life.

Its surprising that something so small (~150 micrograms), is so powerful. As the most potent known hallucinogen, this semi-synthetic, first discovered in 1939, has been influencing modern sub-culture for over 40 years. Yet, perhaps no drug has more myths, rumors, and misconceptions associated with it than acid. While many others have reported on their experiences with the drug, it seems the effects of the experience (like most experiences) vary greatly. So, for what its worth, I'll try to explain how lysergic acid diethylamide changed my life.


It took me 2 or 3 tries to actually get real acid. When I did, my friend and I experienced something we were not at all prepared for. Acid has the strange ability to make all of the parts of your mind that make you who you are, dissolve away, and you can see your pure sort of essence. As you might be aware, we wear a lot of different masks in our everyday interactions with people. You act different ways in different situations and with different people. But what you might not realize is that we wear masks internally, in dealing with ourselves.

There are distinct parts of us. There are mini-personalities that we live in, that come out every once in a while. We all have a serious side, a funny side, a sensuous side, etc. But we disguise exactly how these parts are, and what our true self is. Its quite frightening sometimes to see who you actually are. But its also quite important, in understanding how your mind really does work, how your life really is setup. You will quickly identify problems, and also (possibly) find solutions.

Acid made me happy. I noticed that many people who use drugs for escapism do not use acid, because the introspection of the drug is too much for them. You have to have a strong mind to understand what the drug is doing to you and your thoughts. I never thought that the human mind could think as fast as I have experienced on acid. Imagine that you catch a glimpse of your finger, the tiny ridges on it, and while pondering the implications of fingerprinting technology, and the injustice that is the FBI and federal government, you see the blood vessels in your finger, which, in your imagination, you can sort of travel down, and seeing that blood indeed permeates every part of you, you become aware that everything you intake, air, food, water, does indeed permeate every part of you also. These thoughts, spiraling faster, take you back, when you blink, realizing that you have been thinking for about a faction of a second.

You don't see fake things.

That is a misnomer. Hallucinations are a strong term for visual and auditory effects. Imagine hearing a door close on your right. Seemingly, the echo reaches your other ear a few seconds later, with the associated doppler shift. Small, swirling patterns can be perceived on certain surfaces. But there is nothing fake appearing. Which isn't to say one doesn't see vivid kalediscopic manifestations right before your eyes. But rather, there are no pink elephants or silly shit like that. You have a solid concept of what reality is.

Most people don't understand that reality doesn't really leave you on (most) drugs. You still have common sense. You don't think you can fly; you don't think you have magical powers. Acid puts you more certainly in touch with reality than everyday "reality"; the mundane and insignifigant become amplified and engrossing.

We have lots of different levels of consciousness, from tired and groggy, to our normal states of mind, to REM sleep. Sometimes we even get past these three, to higher levels, such as that during mediation, or, for some people, during church, or intimate moments with God or other deep experiences. These elevations show us something important to or about ourselves. I'm sure there has been some time where you felt amazingly excited and spiritual, or moved, maybe late at night, talking with a friend, or laying awake meeting God.

Man has been altering his consciousness for ages. Ever since the first human discovered that eating certain herbs made them feel a certain way, we have used natural, and later synthetic chemicals to alter the chemistry of our brains to perceive new things. There is nothing morally wrong with this, and this is important to consider. We are taught as children that altering our consciousness is bad, and that any other state besides our normal state is inferior and stupid, and damaging to our brains, and, useless.

This is an udder lie.

Chemicals (while certainly not without risk) are vehicles for experimentation, especially the psychedelic drugs. Psychedelic means literally "mind manifesting". They are ways to explore how your consciousness functions, by going to different, higher levels. I conjecture that taking LSD does not take you to a level of consciousness in which you are stupid. On the contrary, you may be your most creative. Acid is not an everyday consciousness level. Its marked by intense thought, and amazing powers of concentration. Indeed, there was a major league baseball pitcher who threw a no-hitter tripping on acid. There were various recordings released of musicians playing on LSD.

So acid does not necessarily result in physical impairment, as would a drug like alcohol. Needless to say, you shouldn't drive, or operate anything that might put yourself or someone else in danger. But you are not a bumbling idiot either. The acid experience is hard to describe, since it involves sensations and feelings and thoughts that you have never felt before. After the experience, you are changed, but not markedly so. You are changed by the fact that you now recognize perceptions and feelings and thoughts that you now realize you previously ignored or were unaware of. And you can relate to these feelings without the drug.

Adlous Huxley said that acid opened the "doors of perception" to him. On an acid trip, you have your choice of where you will explore. I like to listen to music, and I hear things that I cannot believe. Intricacies of rhythm, or melody. Timbre that seems to boggle the mind, as you wonder: "how'd they do that?" Or the imagination runs wild with your own ideas of what you might do, what you (or I) might create. Its a wonderful experience to share with a friend as you listen to beautiful music thinking how great it is that you can experience such things in life, at such a level as this. Imagine, listening to a piece of music, say a classical piece, and being able to hear each violin (not just each part). Or being able to hear each oscillator in a synth.

Needless to say, I suppose I am biased. And I can't really explain what its like, and there is really no point of trying to be persuasive. I'm sure you could discard everything I say as some kind of mythical bullshit, and simply write me off as being fucked in the head. That's fine. But I cannot deny the fact that there are levels of consciousness, such as when you have a special, "peak" experience. These experiences are naturally occurring things, that some, but not all people have. An example might be if you climbed Mt. Everest. Surely the experience at the summit must be so incredibly magical, and rewarding for such a challenge (and perhaps equally difficult to verbalize the profoundness of the thing). But such experiences need not spring from such arduous endeavors. Indeed, a moment in everyday life, perhaps that time late at night when you find God, or ask him to help you in such a desperate way, that all your prayers until that moment had been trivial and insincere in comparison. Right then, you feel distinctly different, and you know there is something special and marked about that moment.

I can't tell you how I've felt really. But I've tried. I'm still not even sure why I decided to write this. All I know is that life is a series of choices you make, but its also how you feel. And I know that my life was missing at least something until I discovered the thoughts and feelings I had been overlooking. You don't really live life; you experience it. Your memories, your perceptions, values, feelings are all shaped by what you have experienced. Life is about finding new, rewarding, enlightening experiences. Experience does not come without risk, without fear. Every time we do something new, we are uneasy or afraid. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, right?

You cannot live a conservative, safe life.

This is the mythos of our age. You have to take chances with everything that you do. Sometimes, perhaps more often than not, you will fail. But you learn from your mistakes and move on, wiser and smarter, knowing that because you are taking chances, you will find a greater gain. If climbing Mt. Everest was easy and safe, it wouldn't be very rewarding. Such is life. My apologies if this sounds like the musing of a bad motivational speaker...

Anyway, I hope I've imparted something useful. My life is different because of my experiences ingesting a chemical. Is this one manifestation of the promise of better living through chemistry? Or is it dangerous and stupid?

If you are interested in reading more about lysergic acid diethylamide, I suggest checking out Erowid's vault, MK-ULTRA, Acid Dreams by Martin A. Lee, and any of the late Timothy Leary's books (to which I attribute many of my opinions), especially The Politics of Esctasy.

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My Lysergic Acid Diethylamide Life | 444 comments (371 topical, 73 editorial, 0 hidden)
LSD is dangerous (1.43 / 30) (#5)
by medham on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:28:27 AM EST

There's no drug that it's easier to make a case for strong prohibition than LSD, I'm afraid. Psychotomimetics, especially when used by adolescents, are extremely dangerous; and there is good evidence that LSD production in the U.S. was subsidized by the KGB as a part of a PSYOP against the U.S. (a doomed, but still scarily effective one, if you consider the legacy of the 60s).

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.

Oh, totally! (3.66 / 6) (#43)
by gnovos on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 07:26:19 AM EST

You are so right that you don't even need to back up what you say with evidence.  After all, it's just common sense that LSD allows the aliens to broadcast thier mind control rays into young people's brains.  And EVERYONE knows the KGB and the aliens have been working together for quite some time...

A Haiku: "fuck you fuck you fuck/you fuck you fuck you fuck you/fuck you fuck you snow" - JChen
[ Parent ]
Notice (1.33 / 9) (#68)
by medham on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 10:42:43 AM EST

I said nothing about aliens. That is implausible. You, who obviously know nothing of Moscow Centre, should just continue living in your sheltered, happy dancing elves little world. Let us men worry about real problems.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.
[ Parent ]

whatever (none / 0) (#114)
by machine on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:17:35 PM EST

Let us men worry about real problems.

Right. It's nice that you got to refute a comment about aliens and also be annoying and patronizing.



[ Parent ]
Annoying and Patronizing (none / 0) (#332)
by Vygramul on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 10:37:41 AM EST

I intended to be patronizing (annoying was collateral damage). If one can make an unsopported assertion about KGB involvement and demand proof it's not true, the same holds for alien involvement. It certainly holds as much validity as claiming the CIA was behind AIDS.
If Brute Force isn't working, you're not using enough.
[ Parent ]
Why should it be implausible? (none / 0) (#202)
by Vygramul on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:08:36 PM EST

I challenge you to prove it's implausible!
If Brute Force isn't working, you're not using enough.
[ Parent ]
The amazing commies and their wonderful plots (5.00 / 3) (#78)
by Pac on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 11:56:44 AM EST

Care to back up your conspiracy theory with funny links to sites that can also inform us about the Magnificent Twelve, the Bavarian Illuminati and Nessie? It is not that I really care, but I love to find new and wilder conspiracy sites.

As for KGB, wasn't the KGB responsible for all the of it, beginning at the recruitment of Lennon in the early 60's and the baiting of USA into Vietnam and ending by planting evidence against Nixon at Watergate? Add that to the known fact that Elvis is living in a dacha near Moscow and the picture gets even clearer.

Evolution doesn't take prisoners


[ Parent ]
Isn't it odd (4.80 / 5) (#79)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 11:58:22 AM EST

How every prohibitionist you meet has a different idea what the most horrible drug we should all be protected from is.

LSD is non addictive, almost everyone stops after their first bad trip, it's practically impossible to overdose too. Sure, you might have a really awful time for eight hours. Sure, that eight hours might get stretched to seem like eighty. Once it wears off, you'll almost certainly be fine.

Most folks are going for Crack Cocaine as the one thing you absolutely can't legalize now.

I say let the people have what they want, they will anyway, we can't stop them. Make it as safe for them as possible.

        Pre............
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
Legalizing drugs (3.50 / 2) (#102)
by xtremex on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:56:53 PM EST

While the only drug I've done was pot, (and plenty of it), I believe ALL drugs should be legalized. Why? No govt should tell me what I can do to my own body/psyche. And ultimately, it cleans out the gene pool.

[ Parent ]
begging for sarcasm (3.50 / 2) (#88)
by Shpongle Spore on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:25:48 PM EST

I'm tempted to respond with an anti-drug screed so long and over the top that it could never possibly be taken seriously, but I've learned from experience that this is impossible. No matter how ridiculous a parody you come up with about certain topics (like drugs), someone will always take you seriously, even even worse, believe you.

My apologies if this is what you were trying to do.
__
I wish I was in Austin, at the Chili Parlor bar,
drinking 'Mad Dog' margaritas and not caring where you are
[ Parent ]

I challenge you (1.00 / 3) (#90)
by medham on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:31:02 PM EST

To disprove that the KGB was involved in acid production in the 60s and 70s. MK-ULTRA wasn't the only thing around, you know.

Imagine an easier way to overtake a population than dosing their water supply with LSD-25.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.
[ Parent ]

They didn't succeed. (3.00 / 1) (#125)
by blixco on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:45:00 PM EST

And a lot of hippies had fun in the process. Interesting side effect to that psy/op.
-------------------------------------------
The root of the problem has been isolated.
[ Parent ]
You can't prove a negative [n/t] (none / 0) (#134)
by revscat on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:55:00 PM EST



- Rev.
Libertarianism is like communism: both look great on paper.
[ Parent ]
Though (none / 0) (#185)
by medham on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:45:53 PM EST

I'm sure you got a thrill when you learned this in your fluorescent-lit backwater college, it's not even close to being true. Try to follow:

Prove that my dog is not a cat.

My dog is a dog. Q.E.D.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.
[ Parent ]

Amazing (none / 0) (#197)
by qpt on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:04:28 PM EST

Will you teach me, master?

Domine Deus, creator coeli et terrae respice humilitatem nostram.
[ Parent ]

Yes (none / 0) (#200)
by medham on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:06:24 PM EST

This is called the law of the excluded middle. There are other things, if you wish them.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.
[ Parent ]

Please (none / 0) (#213)
by qpt on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:20:10 PM EST

A feel that K5's physicalists have made a mistake somewhere, but I cannot figure out what it is. Do you have any insight?

Domine Deus, creator coeli et terrae respice humilitatem nostram.
[ Parent ]

The law of excluded middle? WTF? (5.00 / 1) (#309)
by synaesthesia on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 06:11:54 AM EST

Prove that Medham is not a troll.
Prove that Medham is not an idiot.
Prove that Medham is not a logician.

Medham is Medham. Q.E.D.


Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

Yes you can (none / 0) (#321)
by Logan on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 09:11:02 AM EST

You claim that I can't prove a negative. Unfortunately, if one were to accept that premise, it'd be impossible to prove. :P

There is nothing special about a negative. You can always come up with a new term Y to mean "not X" and rephrase the proof without using a negative directly (and you can always modify an existing proof to prove a negative).

Really what you have in this case is a request to prove the non-existence of something, which, while difficult and perhaps not possible in this instance, is not generally impossible (despite some claims to the contrary that I have seen).

Logan

[ Parent ]

Of course (none / 0) (#340)
by revscat on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 11:38:12 AM EST

But the statement as originally proposed was "Prove that the KGB wasn't involved in LSD experiments." Statements of that sort are impossible to prove. Of course you can prove negatives, such as the ones you listed; the statement "You can't prove a negative" is a convenient shortcut for "No one can prove an unrestricted negative." Regarding the class of statements in question, it would be impossible to definitively prove (GroupX) !(action), no matter who the group was or what the action was. You cannot have "negative evidence." Even if, to continue with our example, every living former and current member of the KGB were to deny involvement, it still would not be definitive because they could, after all, be lying.



- Rev.
Libertarianism is like communism: both look great on paper.
[ Parent ]
Any way that works (4.33 / 3) (#150)
by Tau Neutrino on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:17:35 PM EST

If you want to take over a population, any way that actually works would be easier than dosing the water supply with LSD-25. There are drugs that will withstand the water purification process (chlorine, and so on), but LSD-25 is not one of them.
--
Theater is life, cinema is art, television is furniture.
[ Parent ]
Exactly (none / 0) (#161)
by sydb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:36:28 PM EST

I understand that LSD decomposes on contact with chlorine.
--

Making Linux GPL'd was definitely the best thing I ever did - Linus Torvalds
[ Parent ]

Uh-huh (none / 0) (#193)
by medham on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:57:13 PM EST

And you probably think that LSD-25 is the only stable way to transmit this particular hallucinogen, don't you?

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.
[ Parent ]

Go on then (none / 0) (#245)
by sydb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:35:00 PM EST

Expound your theory.
--

Making Linux GPL'd was definitely the best thing I ever did - Linus Torvalds
[ Parent ]

trolling, but may have a point (none / 0) (#333)
by Shpongle Spore on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 10:47:07 AM EST

I know of at least one substance, IIRC called ALD-52 that decomposes into LSD in the human body. Distributors of this substance have been successfully prosecuted on the premise that it is just a delivery mechanism for LSD. I have no idea how well it stands up to chlorine, though.
__
I wish I was in Austin, at the Chili Parlor bar,
drinking 'Mad Dog' margaritas and not caring where you are
[ Parent ]
What could that possibly mean? (none / 0) (#330)
by Tau Neutrino on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 10:26:10 AM EST

LSD-25 is the hallucinogen we're talking about. Are you implying that you know of something that becomes LSD-25 in response to the water-purification process?

As much as I try to avoid ad hominem arguments, your points are making less and less sense.
--
Theater is life, cinema is art, television is furniture.
[ Parent ]
drugs in the water supply (none / 0) (#370)
by jafac on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:16:10 PM EST

. . . . like flouride.

[ Parent ]
I double-dog-dare you (2.00 / 2) (#160)
by speek on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:35:56 PM EST

To prove you're not a fucking retard.

--
Entertain me
[ Parent ]

Challenge (none / 0) (#178)
by vile on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:24:47 PM EST

Disprove? Why bother... convince me.

~
The money is in the treatment, not the cure.
[ Parent ]
TINFOIL NO LONGER WORKS!!!! (3.66 / 3) (#111)
by Yellowbeard on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:15:36 PM EST

AAAARRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

"Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt." - Deniro in Ronin


[ Parent ]
LSD is not dangerous (5.00 / 2) (#205)
by Vygramul on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:13:15 PM EST

According to studies done by the National Institutes of Health (National Institute of Mental Health) LSD has no physical nor psychological addictive properties. Lastly, the burden of proof is on behalf of the person making the assertion. There are ways of proving a negative (there has to be) but proof of a negative is used to test one's hypotheses in science, not to avoid the responsibility of proof in debate, which this is.
If Brute Force isn't working, you're not using enough.
[ Parent ]
Look (1.42 / 7) (#209)
by medham on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:17:44 PM EST

If it's not harmful, why is it illegal?

Chopping your neighbor's arm with a machete is harmful. Guess what, it's also illegal! You want to continue, or can you grasp the point yet?

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.
[ Parent ]

Well ... (5.00 / 1) (#283)
by pyramid termite on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 11:44:09 PM EST

If it's not harmful, why is it illegal?

If oral sex between a husband and a wife isn't harmful, why is it illegal in several states?
On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
[ Parent ]
Just eat 2kg of spaghetti, it´s legal and harmful (5.00 / 1) (#310)
by Enocasiones on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:04:19 AM EST

If it's not harmful, why is it illegal?

That sentence shows an astonishing lack of understanding of legislation and of drugs' history. I guess you're trolling, otherwise please reply to this msg and I'll ellaborate further.

Chopping your neighbor's arm with a machete is harmful.

And chopping your own pinky is harmful too. Any laws against it in the US? Do you need examples of harmful things allowed by the laws? Or examples of safe things disallowed?

[ Parent ]

Illegal != harmful (5.00 / 2) (#328)
by Vygramul on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 09:57:09 AM EST

Most forms of sex not involving vaginal intercourse are illegal in most places in the US. Lemme know when you figure out how a blowjob is harmful.
If Brute Force isn't working, you're not using enough.
[ Parent ]
Burden of proof (5.00 / 1) (#219)
by xriso on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:26:51 PM EST

Every substance is capable of having a psychological addictive property. The burden of proof lies on those who would claim that LSD is some sort of special case.
--
*** Quits: xriso:#kuro5hin (Forever)
[ Parent ]
Yabut (none / 0) (#391)
by Vygramul on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 10:46:23 AM EST

When people say LSD is not addictive, they mean that it is no more addictive than, say, Ice Cream. By that standard anything can be addictive because there will always be a few out of the 300,000,000 people in the US unable to quit whatever they are addicted to. However, the vast majority will be capable of consuming Ice Cream and LSD and go without afterwards

.
If Brute Force isn't working, you're not using enough.
[ Parent ]

Not addictive, but... (3.00 / 2) (#250)
by mold on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 07:06:59 PM EST

Well, I don't know about all of the properties, but I have a friend that has only done LSD once, about five years ago, and now has flashbacks all the time. I usually insist that I drive, since the last time we were heading down the highway and she started to freak out because she "had ants crawling all over" her, I had to try and pull the car over from the passenger seat...

---
Beware of peanuts! There's a 0.00001% peanut fatality rate in the USA alone! You could be next!
[ Parent ]
"Flashbacks" (5.00 / 1) (#327)
by Vygramul on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 09:53:58 AM EST

The incidence of this sort of mental disorder among former LSD users is not greater than that of the general population. Studies have been unable to conclude that such a thing as flashbacks exists (Natnl Inst. Health).

I suggest all who care to know the facts rather than admit that they, like everyone, were duped by the government-perpetuated urban legends surrounding drugs, read up on your favourites on MedLine.

"But the Dutch speak four languages and smoke marijuana!" -Eddie Izzard


If Brute Force isn't working, you're not using enough.
[ Parent ]

What duping? (none / 0) (#401)
by mold on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 02:13:10 PM EST

I'd like to know what kind of things the government says. I live in Missouri, USA, and the only things that we really have are anti-tobacco commercials. The only one that I have ever seen on drug usage, was during the super bowl, and everyone I know agreed that it was stupid.

All of my knowledge of drug effects come from watching others. It is an extremely popular pastime out in rural MO. Mostly Meth and Pot, I'll admit. I would stay away from Meth, simply because a friend of mine, while making the stuff, managed to cause it to explode and now only has one arm. Mostly. From what I can tell of Pot, it seems to slow the memory and reflexes while being used, and everyone seems to be able to stop using it when they want to.

As to my friend's flashbacks, they didn't start until she took the LSD, and they are (so I'm told) the same as when she took it. The other people that I know with flashbacks all come from having an abusive childhood (Another common thing in rural MO). While drug induced flashbacks may not be any more common than in the non-drug using population, they exist for rather separate reasons.

My mother has extremely bad flashbacks, dreams, etc, from her childhood. The way she describes flashbacks, sometimes they are just memories that are superimposed onto what she sees, other times they are all she can see or hear for a couple of seconds. According to her, flashbacks are usually just strange image sort of memories, and the dreams are where she remembers the less pleasant parts of her childhood.

---
Beware of peanuts! There's a 0.00001% peanut fatality rate in the USA alone! You could be next!
[ Parent ]

wonderful post (3.90 / 10) (#8)
by narcotik on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:39:55 AM EST

Even though this post will be more then likely trolled by anti-drug activists on K5, I thought it was a wonderful look at not only LSD but the relationship of humans to the world around them.

Surprise (none / 0) (#124)
by sydb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:39:43 PM EST

I've been surprised by the number of sympathetic posts attached to this article. Considering kuro5hin's population of technically adept readers, and the propensity of the technically adept to accuse their more inferior counterparts of 'smoking crack', I would have though that LSD would attract similar emotions. Then again, I always thought psychedelics were the 'thinking man's drug'.
--

Making Linux GPL'd was definitely the best thing I ever did - Linus Torvalds
[ Parent ]

Concentration (4.50 / 16) (#14)
by sigwinch on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:12:52 AM EST

Acid is not an everyday consciousness level. Its marked by intense thought, and amazing powers of concentration.
A few years back I saw an article (perhaps in Scientific American) where they gave various drugs to spiders and observed the webs they made. Narcotics produced erratic webs, as you might expect, but spiders on acid spun webs much more perfect than usual, presumably because they were no longer distracted by that pesky outside world.

--
I don't want the world, I just want your half.

Just goes to show (4.60 / 5) (#19)
by xriso on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:33:56 AM EST

If you're a spider and you want to make a good web, don't do narcotics.
--
*** Quits: xriso:#kuro5hin (Forever)
[ Parent ]
sigs? (none / 0) (#273)
by EricHeinz on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 09:25:55 PM EST

Did you intentionally line up your sig to match his or is that just a hillarious coincidence? i guess there's no better way to avoid sitting on plates in your skivies than just going commando.


sha boom boom
[ Parent ]
haha! (none / 0) (#301)
by xriso on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 03:40:39 AM EST

I've never seen that happen before! hehe.

--
And that's exactly the reason why I am wearing no pants.
[ Parent ]
I seem to recall... (none / 0) (#25)
by Meatbomb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:03:54 AM EST

...that the LSD spiders made screwed-up webs - really wrong. Anyone know of a link, or have the original NatGeo/SciAmer article?

_______________

Good News for Liberal Democracy!

[ Parent ]
well I seem to recall... (4.50 / 2) (#101)
by squinky on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:56:33 PM EST

That the worst effect was from caffeine (which has insecticidal properties-- arachnids are close...)

I recall no enhancement from LSD, but no detriment either.

But my personal experience-- I was about 4 or 5 hours into a trip and I played a game of pool with a stranger who didn't know I was tripping. It made me nervous. The table was rocking back and forth like it was a raft on a lake and the felt was bubbling like it was boiling guacamole, so I tried really hard (all the while thinking-- "Aarrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!, I'm taking too long-- he'll *know*") But-- I don't think he did. And I'm pretty sure I played the best game of pool in my life. I KICKED HIS ASS.

Of course, maybe he just naturally sucked at pool. I only played him once and never saw him again. But, even if he stunk, I know I played a pretty good game for having to shoot across a semi-liquid surface with a wobbly rubber stick.

So maybe spiders think they have to try harder too...

[ Parent ]

Interesting (none / 0) (#183)
by flimflam on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:42:09 PM EST

I played pool while tripping once as well. I could see little dotted lines all over the table showing the angles at which each ball would bounce off the bumpers and each other. Very strange. I actually didn't have to think at all, I just hit the ball along the dotted line and ran the table. Only time I've ever done that. I tried to recreate that experience, but failed miserably.


-- I am always optimistic, but frankly there is no hope. --Hosni Mubarek
[ Parent ]
performance enhancing drug? (4.50 / 2) (#208)
by laidbackguy on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:17:41 PM EST

Another comment mentioned the baseball pitcher who threw a no-hitter after taking acid. You, and many others I'm sure, found you were more successful at pool when tripping.

My personal favorite game to play while tripping was... ping-pong! It's phenomenal. I could drop into "the zone" in a matter of moments. I no longer moved the paddle - the paddle itself would move me where it needed to be. My perception of time was slowed so dramatically that I could literally see the ball slowly spinning in the air and the paddle would compensate for automatically. Living in the moment, what a glorious feeling. I've never experienced anything quite like it. Speaking very immodestly, I was fucking amazing. I could clean anyone's clock - except for the buddies I was tripping with. We would have titanic volleys that would go on for, I dunno, hours? Weeks?

An interesting aside - I got bored beating straight people handily and switched to playing with my left hand for a time. After a while, my tripping brain realized that this, too, could be dead easy. All I had to do was reverse the polarity of my body - treat the left hand as if it was an exact mirror image of the right hand (duh) and do what I would ordinarily do, except in reverse, and my winning streak returned. While I've played piano and typed for much of my life, giving me some versatility with my left hand, I'm generally quite clumsy with it. After that experience, though, I can sometimes use that trick while straight to good effect. It sounds mundane when I put it down in writing, but it really made profound difference.

Anyway, the original point of my post was really to ask this question: for what sports or games do people find acid to be a performance enhancer? Other than ping-pong, which is off the scale in my book, I've tried racquetball. It's fun, being locked in a big bright white cube with a bouncy blue ball, but I can't say I was particularly good at it.

[ Parent ]

darts (none / 0) (#335)
by Shpongle Spore on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 10:53:51 AM EST

A friend once told me it was like he was just sticking the dart in the board where he wanted it to go.
__
I wish I was in Austin, at the Chili Parlor bar,
drinking 'Mad Dog' margaritas and not caring where you are
[ Parent ]
Cannabis does it for me (none / 0) (#430)
by FatOldGoth on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 04:03:45 PM EST

Due to various mental health problems over the years I've never dared try LSD, but I have had some fairly trippy experiences from cannabis, especially skunk. Apart from the usual concentration-related benefits, like being able to pick apart music in my head into individual and visible strands, I've noticed that it improves my performance when playing video games.

Every now and then I play networked first-person shooters at LAN parties and tend to do a little better than most people, but not spectacularly well. On the occasions I've played stoned, though, I've found that I've been able to get into a deep state of concentration that has allowed me to wipe the floor with everyone else. Part of it is certainly due to being able to make the rest of the world drop away, and certainly focussing purely on the one task becomes easier, but I've also noticed that my reflexes improve dramatically. I've wondered if this is due to the altered time perception that even mild psychedelics like THC provide. It's certainly easier to get the drop on someone when one second feels like five.


Are you invested with attitude?
[ Parent ]
pot and video games (none / 0) (#444)
by YelM3 on Wed Nov 27, 2002 at 04:09:33 AM EST

I have also found that I am dramatically better at some video games while stoned. It helps me get into "the zone" .. I guess it's that place where a) distraction are gone and b) you're not overthinking it, just letting your instincts and reflexes do the work. I've also noticed that being very tired sometimes has the same effects, but not as reliably.

[ Parent ]
Dosage (none / 0) (#122)
by sydb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:37:06 PM EST

The fucked up webs were produced on high doses of LSD; the 'more perfect' webs were produced on low doses.
--

Making Linux GPL'd was definitely the best thing I ever did - Linus Torvalds
[ Parent ]

Relevant link (4.66 / 3) (#87)
by MMcP on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:01:59 PM EST

Yalp.

[ Parent ]
I'd like to see more data (none / 0) (#212)
by xriso on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:18:39 PM EST

The general structure of those two webs seems to be similar, and they may only be different as a result of "how it turned out". If I could see, say 6 webs for normal, and then 6 webs with LSD, we could draw a better conclusion. Does LSD even have a mind-altering effect on spider brains?
--
*** Quits: xriso:#kuro5hin (Forever)
[ Parent ]
Coffee and nets. (5.00 / 2) (#162)
by degauss on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:39:54 PM EST

Funny how the web made while on caffeine looks a lot like this network map.

[ Parent ]
That Makes Perfect Sense (none / 0) (#429)
by FatOldGoth on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 03:53:29 PM EST

Every network engineer I've worked with has been a caffeine junkie.


Are you invested with attitude?
[ Parent ]
This is a wonderful story. (4.71 / 21) (#20)
by snowlion on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:38:36 AM EST

First, let me tell you how happy your post made me. It reminded me of my experiences with acid. Your writing on what acid is like is great, and wonderfully descriptive. Unfortunately, as you note, I don't think that there is a way to tell people who haven't experienced it what it's really like. But as far as tellings go, I think yours did a good job.

Your notes on hallucination are correct- there are no pink elephants, or Jumanji or anything like that. However, I don't think you closed your eyes for a significant period of time. If there is a next time that you try acid or mushrooms, close your eyes in a dark room and look and listen for a while. (Do remember that you can open your eyes at any time, or move your attention to sounds around you.) As always, have a friend around, and comforting music.

I have done acid 2 times in my life, and mushrooms 2 times. Of the two, mushrooms are my favorite; Somehow they don't feel as "hard" as acid. The last time was many many years ago, though I suspect I will connect again some time in about 5-10 years.

A warning: I have a great friend who became something of an acid head for a while, and did a lot of acid. There's nothing wrong with him, but he was a little imbalanced for a while, and he didn't like it. I'm not worried that you might fall into a bad camp on "the other side" of the mental fence; I'm just worried that you might hang out over there too much. It's not that there are permanent lasting affects. Rather, it's that some people fall in love with that land, and the simple pragmatics of the world are that we can't live both here and there in the same life. We can visit for a little while now and then, and lead a better life than if not visiting at all; But to try and stay over there or to retreat from this world to that one is quite heartbreaking. One of my best friends did this because of all of the difficult layers that you have to work through in this world, and he just wanted to live in that world. But, it's just not meant to be. We have to live lives in this world. We are incarnated out here, not "over there". So, just, be careful. I don't want to be an authority or dogmatic; Just watching out for my fellow tripper- all part of the code.

By the way, it's an "utter" lie, not an "udder" lie. Udders are the breasts of cows. {:)}=

A wonderful K5 story. I wish we had more stuff like this here. {;D}=

Take care, With Love, Lion =^_^= . o O ( The stars are happy... )
--
Map Your Thoughts

Acid and psychadelics can be fun.... (5.00 / 2) (#39)
by morkeleb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:44:29 AM EST

My personal favorite is shrooms however....because depending on how much acid you take you could be up for three days - and that is not fun at all. Also - the trips seem a lot softer than acid.

Try this sometime - you know how the walls and ceilings start to shift and move (especially when your're listening to music). Look at the patterns in the walls and search for letters. You'll find them (just by the act of searching for them). Then write them down in a journal (if your're able). It will make for interesting reading later on. =)

So they can be fun. However I've done enough of them with different people to know that they're not the happiest thing in the world for everyone (and can be total nightmares for a few people). I'd be interested in reading psychadelic horror stories (I think it's the horror fan inside me). Because I've been around quite a few people who get confronted with stuff that happened to them when they were kids or other weird unresolved stuff came up in the course of bouncing through their subconscious - and the experiences of people who have bad trips have always been more interesting to me.

I mean as an example - this one time I was tripping in the forest with a friend of mine and she was looking at the redwoods and noticed that the bark of the trees looked like thousands of interwined limbs and torsos of people having sex. So that was kind've a happy thought. And then slowly that image morphed and they became maidens hanging from nooses swinging in the wind. Of course being in the impressionable state I was in - I started to see the same thing.

Of course that wasn't so bad....it was just a dark sort've thought and we moved on. Why her mind took her there though is really interesting to me.
"If I read a book and it makes my whole body so cold no fire can ever warm me, I know that is poetry." - Emily Dickinson
[ Parent ]
Mushrooms more intense then acid. (5.00 / 1) (#238)
by geordie on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:13:54 PM EST

I've done acid about 30 times, and mushrooms about 10.  I find acid to be quite predictable from trip to trip, even acid from different sources.  Mushrooms on the other hand are very unpredictable, and are almost always way more intense than acid.  I have never had a true hallucination (where I believed the hallucination was real) on acid, but have had several doozies on 'shrooms (like the time I thought the earth was hit by an asteroid - why else would it be dark outside?)

For me mushroom trips have always been much shorter than acid trips.

For some reason I feel the need to disclaim that I  last did acid in 1995.  Really.  I'm WITH the US on the War on Drugs.  I'm NOT an enemy combatant.

--

[ Parent ]

Health? (4.33 / 9) (#33)
by Stereo on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:38:29 AM EST

I would have been interested in a part about health. How big is the threat of having a "bad trip", what can happen to you if you take LSD or mushrooms?

We've all heard the war-on-drugs FUD about how smoking a joint can kill you on the spot. I've even heard from someone who took herself very seriously, in a class full of students, that if you smoked a single joint, you would get an overdose, somewhen in your life. I've been told that heroin would slowly kill and demotivate anyone who took it and seen myself that, when given a clean supply, any heroin addict would be able to live a very normal life.

What I've heard from the war-on-drugs zealots is that LSD is addictive and that I would definitely drop dead from a bad trip if I took it. Maybe someone could share his or her experience about this?

kuro5hin - Artes technicae et humaniores, a fossis


Very normal life... (4.40 / 5) (#35)
by Kasreyn on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:18:16 AM EST

...as long as they get their H. You don't want to see them when they're without it, it's fucking scary. Personally, I wouldn't want to live a life where my only joy comes out of a needle, and everything else fades in comparison. =\


-Kasreyn


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
[ Parent ]
that sure is a lot of FUD (4.66 / 3) (#53)
by shivers on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 09:26:22 AM EST

I used to spend a lot of time researching stuff like that in my experimenting years (ah, nostalgia...)

LSD is in no way addictive; it is certainly possible to become emotionally dependent on the feelings it gives you and to prefer the world you're in when tripping than the real one outside.  But there is no addiction.

There's also no hard evidence of physical side-effects.  Mental effects are an interesting one and vary much from person to person.  On the whole, lots of acid over a long period of time can cause semi-permanent mental changes for the worse.  

Bad trips can't kill you; but they can be extremely unpleasant (like worse than the worst nightmares).  Again, the importance of being with people you know and in a comfortable and safe environment.  I also think it's extremely important to be with people who are experienced with acid; they'll recognise a bad trip before it happens and steer you away from it.

[ Parent ]

Steer you away. (4.00 / 1) (#61)
by wiredog on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 09:55:18 AM EST

OTOH, having someone flip out can really ruin your trip. I've seen bad trips that developed slowly enough to deflect, and trips that went bad in an instant.

Can't sleep. The clowns will get me.
[ Parent ]
true (none / 0) (#63)
by shivers on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 10:08:16 AM EST

This is true - I guess there is some skill in getting close enough to help but detached enough not to get infected.

[ Parent ]
thats also why (5.00 / 1) (#93)
by Altus on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:40:14 PM EST

It is not a bad idea to have a sober "baby sitter" near by, just in case...

 
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the money, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
[ Parent ]

hmm (none / 0) (#171)
by shivers on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:05:31 PM EST

I can see the benefit in that, but I'd rather have another experienced tripper who's tripping with me than one that's not.  Someone to share it with...  So long as 2+ people are experienced I reckon its pretty safe.

btw - nothing beats having a shared trip; seeing the same stuff (or both thinking that you are, either way...)

[ Parent ]

This is also true (none / 0) (#184)
by Altus on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:43:13 PM EST

I couldnt imagine tripping alone... I dont think it would be very enjoyable...

 
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the money, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
[ Parent ]

agreed, but worth a try one day (4.00 / 1) (#246)
by shivers on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:50:46 PM EST

It could be interesting to try it for purely experimental purposes; remove the responsibility of keeping an eye on another, remove the human connection with reality and relax and trip out completely.  Hmmm.

[ Parent ]
It depends.. (none / 0) (#421)
by spiralx on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 06:27:18 AM EST

... on whether you're the sort of person that is happy spending time on their own. Some people get twitchy if they don't have company, some people are happy to do their own thing. Drop a trip, make yourself a nest, put some music on and lie back and enjoy it :)

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

Not the best "baby sitter" (5.00 / 1) (#289)
by Mojo JoJo on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 12:32:09 AM EST

I am definitely NOT the best person to be your drug "baby sitter". Stoned people for some reason bring out a very malevolent side to my personality. I just can't resist playing "mind fuck" with stoners. Probably because when you're straight, stoned people are boring as hell. Nothing worse than wanting to go do something when everyone else is sitting around staring at the damn ceiling.

I actually turned one of my friends off of drugs completely one time. She was tripping with my roommate and I locked her in our infamous "sex closet".

The "sex closet" was just a tiny little closet in our living room that when we moved in did not have a light bulb in it. Since the only bulb available was red we put it in there. And since the closet didn't have a door we just hung an old paisley tapestry in front of it. AFAIK no one ever actually had sex in the closet (it was pretty small) but the name stuck anyway.

So anyway, my friend comes in tripping her brains out and being slightly drunk and very bored I locked her in the closet. How, you might ask, did I "lock her in a closet with only an old tapestry for a door. Well, there was an old clamp for a fire extinguisher in there so I put her wrist in it and clamped it shut. Actually the clamp was plenty big for her to just slip her hand through it but in her mental state she just stood there and screamed.

After laughing about it for a while I finally "released" her and they went on their merry (or by this time, not-so-merry) way.

I do feel kind of bad about it today because I didn't realize how traumatic it was for her but it still makes for a pretty funny story and we laugh about it now. To this day though, she won't even so much as smoke pot.


____

SkyNet told me to tell you that Google is watching you. - CheeseburgerBrown


[ Parent ]
I had a bad trip once. (4.50 / 4) (#80)
by revscat on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 12:07:50 PM EST

Bit of background: I hate bugs. Not butterflies or ants, but big beetles tend to make me nervous. Well, a few years ago I visited a friend of mine in Hawaii and we tripped at his house. After I insisted we quit watching "Naked Lunch", we go out on his balcony to smoke a cigarette. Well, they live smack in the middle of a rain forest, which has a lot of -- you guessed it -- bugs in it, some of them shockingly large (and unfamiliar to this native Texan.) So I glance up and see this hideous looking thing crawling across his screen door, and I slowly back away. Well, my buddy, being used to the local fauna, reaches up and nonchalantly flicks it off the screen.

Where, of course, it lands on my bare foot, causing me to freak my shit.

So after about five minutes I calm down. Later, after he has gone to bed and I'm still laying awake tripping, I begin to remember the scene. This is when things started getting bad. I started to get terrified, breathing heavy, and could hear every heartbeat.

But then I remembered something I had read from John Lilly a couple of years previous: You control the trip. If you feel yourself start to go bad, take a couple of deep breaths, calm yourself, and find a comfortable spot. You can't fight the trip itself, but you can control how it goes. If you have the strength of water, you'll do fine.

That was the only time I've come close to having a bad trip. It never happened again, and I used to do a lot of acid. Lots and lots.

And then I had kids...



- Rev.
Libertarianism is like communism: both look great on paper.
[ Parent ]
I have ADD (4.00 / 1) (#98)
by xtremex on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:51:57 PM EST

I caN do 50 things at the the same time, but have the attention span of a gnat..I never tried Acid, (I used to be the "babysitter"), and I was told that a person with ADD couldn't handle Acid..I never had a desire to try it...I felt I trnascended on my own anyway.

[ Parent ]
So do I (none / 0) (#130)
by revscat on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:51:05 PM EST

ADD and acid don't conflict or go together. If the only thing preventing you from taking acid is fear, don't worry. I was ADD before I took it, and still am. No more, no less.



- Rev.
Libertarianism is like communism: both look great on paper.
[ Parent ]
bugs (5.00 / 1) (#368)
by jafac on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:07:30 PM EST

On my first trip, I was trying to smoke some pot, and it fell out of my bowl into the grass at the park I was in.  I found a live moth, put it into my bowl and smoked it.

It's not *always* a profoundly enlightening experience.

[ Parent ]

lethal bad trips (3.80 / 5) (#99)
by Shpongle Spore on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:52:47 PM EST

Bad trips certainly can kill you if they're bad enough to make you kill yourself--it's happened before. Of course this happens all the time to people who are not on acid, and then it's just called "depression." Saying it's a risk of acid its a bit like saying that getting killed in a car crash is a risk of driving a red sports car while ignoring that it's a risk of driving any car.

Of course acid can make you extraordinarily more sensitive to all sorts of things, which might make it more likely that something you could deal with ordinarily would make you suicidal. The trick is to also be extraordinarily careful about what you expose yourself to and who your companions are (tripping alone is asking for trouble). But while on acid you always have one great tool with which to calm yourself down that you wouldn't have otherwise: you know the way you feel is caused by a drug and that it will wear off without any action on your part. If you can remember this, or have someone remind you of it, you're way ahead of the game.
__
I wish I was in Austin, at the Chili Parlor bar,
drinking 'Mad Dog' margaritas and not caring where you are
[ Parent ]

Addictive? (4.00 / 5) (#117)
by Irobot on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:22:17 PM EST

Not at all; in fact, in my opinion, LSD has the property of being, in some sense, inversely addictive. The more you take (over time, not in one dose), the less it'll affect you. I found that it took a week or two of down time to get the original effect. Perhaps this is simply tolerance; however, I've also never jonesed for a trip...and being a cigarette smoker, I know (to some extent) what jonesing is...

As far as bad trips go, the closest I've come is an extreme case of displacement and confusion. Think magnified Kafka. Not something I'd wish on anyone, although it passed with some sleep and ultimately forced me to deal with some issues I had.

The absolute worst case of a bad trip I know of is a friend who had an identity crisis. I don't mean the "go out and buy a sports car" type; he was touch and go for a while there, being treated by a psychologist. However, it changed his life for the better (he says, and I can see his view) - he's now getting his second Master's in Buddhist studies (first was in philosophy), in large part because tripping changed his worldview.

I have to say - taking LSD has had an overall positive effect on my life. I once thought that everyone should take LSD at least once in their life. However, I don't see it that way anymore. Some people can't handle it. Some people get nothing out of it. Some people don't need it; they already have that mindset. For most, I think, it is a profound experience. Which, I suppose, is the point of the article - LSD changes the way you perceive the world.

Irobot

"Life is so unlike theory." -- Anthony Trollope
Irobot

The one important thing I have learned over the years is the difference between taking one's work seriously and taking one's self seriously. The first is imperative and the second is disastrous. -- Margot Fonteyn
[ Parent ]

It´s tolerance (none / 0) (#314)
by Enocasiones on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:22:29 AM EST

LSD has the property of being, in some sense, inversely addictive. The more you take (over time, not in one dose), the less it'll affect you.

That´s called tolerance, not inverse addiction. It´s the body´s self-defense against excesses and happens with any kind of drug. Try quitting smoking for 3 or 4 days and see how the next cigarette affects you.

[ Parent ]

In fact... (5.00 / 1) (#350)
by Dephex Twin on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 01:47:24 PM EST

Not only is it tolerance, but tolerance is the major part of addiction-- definitely NOT the inverse!

It's tolerance that requires more of the drug to be taken to achieve the same highs, and it's tolerance that makes you feel lower than normal when you are without the drug.

mark


Alcohol: the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems. -- Homer Simpson
[ Parent ]

HPPD (Hallucinogen Persisting Perceptual Disorder) (4.50 / 2) (#222)
by mnstrgrl on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:36:55 PM EST

LSD advocates tend to argue that it is the safest of all recreational drugs. However, Hallucinogen Persisting Perceptual Disorder (HPPD) seems to be a very real disorder. No matter what your local psychonaut has to say, it's real enough to be listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

Erowid's HPPD vault is an excellent place to find information about this disorder. It also answers some questions regarding other possible risks associated with LSD use.

To put this comment into perspective, I should mention that I've used LSD a number of times myself. I'm not pointing out HPPD as support for any anti-drug rhetoric. I'm just providing some information which responsible LSD users should be aware of.

[ Parent ]

Thanks (none / 0) (#230)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:49:41 PM EST

Very good link. I'm surprised that I'd never heard of the thing before, certainly it's frequency is well below the one in twenty that researcher mentoned. It will be a difficult thing to study properly while LSD remains illegal.

        Pre..........
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
Good... (4.50 / 10) (#34)
by kimpton on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:42:41 AM EST

...write up of personal experience with an interesting point.

I agree with you that LSD is worth taking to gain a different perspective on yourself(as long as you are in a safe environment with people to help you if things get out of hand). I think you take it a bit far with LSDs ability to facilitate an examination of your emotions and feelings though. Thoughts tend to get magnified in importance when tripping and their significance are exposed as ridiculous or silly when you come down. What it does do though is disrupt your perception of your sensory data, exposing the fact that the world you perceive is only your personal view of this sensory data. Alter a few chemicals in your brain and the world quite quickly starts to look, feel and sound different.

You don't see fake things.

I certainly did. Passages of thought seemed to spiral out of control occasionally and then very strange (and occasionally scary) visions would happen. I would generally snap out of them quickly though.

Pink Elephants (4.61 / 13) (#42)
by gnovos on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 07:18:56 AM EST

If you happen to be dissapointed by the lack of pink elepahnt sightings in terribly illegal drugs like LSD, I would point you to a wonderfully LEGAL drug that will, in fact, give you those full-on hallucinations that you thought you were going to have:  Cough Syrup.  Or more specifically, dextromethorphan (DXM).  Not only will you have no spiritual or emotional journies with this perfectly legal treat, you will, quite possibly, find yourself in a 100% 3-d hallucination complete with floating cloud cities populated by guitar-shaped aliens, and, if you are very luck, thier pink elephant overlords.  

However, unlike the horrible, illegal LSD, which is fairly harmless, DXM will quickly eat holes in your brain...  Funny thing, laws.

A Haiku: "fuck you fuck you fuck/you fuck you fuck you fuck you/fuck you fuck you snow" - JChen

Haven't seen it much anymore (5.00 / 1) (#60)
by Armaphine on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 09:53:52 AM EST

However, unlike the horrible, illegal LSD, which is fairly harmless, DXM will quickly eat holes in your brain... Funny thing, laws.

Actually, it may just be my locale, but I haven't seen it on the shelves much anymore. Not that it comes as a surprise to me. I mean, I've known a number of people who were less than tactful about their purchasing of it. Yeah, you've got your clubbing clothes on, and you're buying three bottles of cough syrup. Yep, I'm sure it's just a really nasty cough.

Question authority. Don't ask why, just do it.
[ Parent ]

obligatory warning (4.75 / 4) (#103)
by Shpongle Spore on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:58:28 PM EST

If you want to experiment with this substance, please read and understand the DXM FAQ first. Tripping on cough syrup is dangerous, especially if you don't know what you're doing.
__
I wish I was in Austin, at the Chili Parlor bar,
drinking 'Mad Dog' margaritas and not caring where you are
[ Parent ]
DXM, laced with... (5.00 / 1) (#148)
by ebonkyre on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:10:23 PM EST

While I've never personally taken the cough syrup trip, I would point out that pure DXM syrups are quite rare now (probably for this very reason).  Almost all contain other drugs that cause nasty side effects if you take enough syrup to get high, ranging from acetaminophen ("Tylenol", overdose causes liver failure and death) to guaifenesin (an expectorant ie loosens phlegm, overdose causes extreme vomiting).

That said, I'll take this opportunity to plug MC Chris, one of the brains behind the clearly drug-induced cartoons SeaLab 2021, Aqua Teen Hunger Force, and others (http://www.adultswim.com).  Why?  For his song "The Tussin" (http://www.mcchris.com - look under Tunes for lyrics and MP3), not really one of his best works IMHO, but at least somewhat relevent.


The truth hurts sometimes... Nothing beats a nice fat cock. ShiftyStoner
[ Parent ]

Don't forget me! (none / 0) (#195)
by Pseudoephedrine on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:59:58 PM EST

I'm a precursor to everyone's friend, Mr. Methamphetamine! I also cause serious blood pressure problems and other stimulant related problems when taken in high dosages.
"We who have passed through their hands feel suffocated when we think of that legion, which is stripped bare of human ideals" -Alexander Solzhenitsyn
[ Parent ]
Not really rare. (none / 0) (#251)
by Rainy on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 07:12:12 PM EST

Almost any pharmacy here has 'em (in brooklyn). It's usually robitussin maximum cough syrup, or <pharmacy name> maximum cough Tussin. It's in CVS and rite aid for sure; I think Duane Reade don't have them.
--
Rainy "Collect all zero" Day
[ Parent ]
Re: Not really rare. (none / 0) (#359)
by ebonkyre on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 05:36:16 PM EST

Hmm... must be a regional thing then (I do live in a college town), but on the rare occasions I have been sick enough to actually desire something as foul as cough syrup (vs pills), I try to find something with as few unnecessary additives (designed to treat problems I don't have), and it's been extremely difficult to find.  Last time, I did find one(!) bottle of straight Robotussin DM shoved way to the back a shelf vs dozens of bottles each of at least 30 varieties of multi-med stuff.  I think it was expired too.

The truth hurts sometimes... Nothing beats a nice fat cock. ShiftyStoner
[ Parent ]
Uhhm (5.00 / 1) (#216)
by Rainy on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:24:45 PM EST

I wouldn't say that DXM is any more dangerous than LSD. It's a bit more potent, though, but vast majority of users use it at less potent dosage than LSD's users, simply because it's hard to drink much of the syrup.

Here's the story on DXM health risks: there were tens or thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of users. In a few extreme cases (roughly a bottle or two per day for half a year or longer), it caused leisions in users' brain and degradation of memory and other brain functions. But I can't imagine who'd want to drink that much of this stuff for so long. The syrup gets to taste worse and worse the more you drink of it, and at some point you realize you'd rather eat shit than take another sip. Besides, high content of sugar in the syrup itself is hard on liver, iirc., but that's similar to eating a lot of candy and don't have anything to do with dxm per se (which can be extracted, btw).

As for the hallucinations.. DXM is much less hallucinogenic than LSD. Yeah, if you read Erowid reports, there's lot of aliens and what-not, but you generally get the more interesting reports; in all my days of drinking the cherry syrup I only got the "doll room" vision, i.e. where you feel that everything you see is few centimeters in size at most (chairs, bed, trees), and a few centimeters from your eyes. And, mind you, I did it on 3rd plateau, close to 4th, predominantly. I don't have a visual type of mind, though - I never see shapes or colors in my dreams, for example, I instead see concepts and objects stripped of their visual attributes, just the bare essence of things.

DXM on 1st and 2nd plateaus (where most people use it) is mainly an euphoric drug, a bit like E minus empathy; as you approach 3rd plateau, there's more of an introspective aspect to it.

Why is it legal and LSD isn't? Three reasons: dxm is a very good cough suppressant, and there's no equal substitute; and it has low potential for abuse since syrup is repugnant to most people (nay, all); extraction is complex and messy, and finally, the effects of the drug itself are unpleasant to roughly 2/3rds of those who do try it.

If you do wanna try it, make absolutely sure you get pure dxm syrup. Some dxm syrups contain stuff that may kill you if you drink a bottle; namely, acetaminophen. So be bloody sure you know what you're doing. There's a dxm FAQ.

Here's an odd thing: for me at least, doing dxm on fresh air is a gazillion times better than otherwise. I've no idea why.. Indoors, I feel like there's not enough oxygen. DXM does put your body into overdrive mode, so this could very well be true. The perfect setting for me is an empty park at night and a walkman with some ambient music like Eno, Peter Gabriels' two ambient albums, Vangelis, that sort of music. DXM isn't nearly as pleasant during the day, especially in the summer.
--
Rainy "Collect all zero" Day
[ Parent ]

dxm (none / 0) (#274)
by alprazolam on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 10:33:23 PM EST

You can apparently get powder DXM with a bit of lieing. It's significantly more pleasant than drinking cough syrup but it will still make you puke and shit more than you might like while tripping.

It's not the same type of drug as LSD. Yes it's a hallucinogen or whatever, but it's a disassociative like ketamine, and unlike mushrooms or acid for the most part. Thus the hallucinations are less visual, but at the same time you can almost completely lose touch with reality and see some pretty strange things. It's in this state that people have been known to forget things like their name, or breathing.

There's something very enjoyable about disassociatives to me though. I would probably do DXM regularly if I had pills. I could probably do it more often than acid or mushrooms which tend to make you think too much sometimes. Not that many people freak out but sometimes it doesn't do as well as other drugs when it comes to divorcing you from reality or your fears and insecurities.

[ Parent ]

re: powder (none / 0) (#381)
by Rainy on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 09:55:59 PM EST

I know but it's ridiculously expensive at places I've seen. It costs something like 3x vs. the syrup. Do you have a cheaper site?

I don't really puke anymore, or feel like it. It happened to me 2 or 3 times when I was starting out. Last night I drank a 4oz bottle of cvs honey tussin (10mg/ml) and I felt my stomack upset for 5 seconds at most, and no discomfort other than that at all.

I agree about the rest..
--
Rainy "Collect all zero" Day
[ Parent ]

well i don't know (none / 0) (#402)
by alprazolam on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 03:18:49 PM EST

exactly how much it cost, but it was a very large bottle for not a huge amount of money. It probably contained about 1000 serious trips. Maybe you're just lucky with the stomach stuff, just about everybody I know that did it always got sick, to varying degrees (sometimes just a little nauseous).

[ Parent ]
re: getting sick on dex (none / 0) (#410)
by Rainy on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 09:25:58 PM EST

I used to, as well. Nowadays I switched my diet to vegetarian (salads, fruits, grains, nuts, all self-made meals) and I feel much healthier. Drugs in general don't disabilitate me like they used to do. I also practice yoga and meditate every day, that helped also.
--
Rainy "Collect all zero" Day
[ Parent ]
re: powder (none / 0) (#411)
by Rainy on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 09:26:22 PM EST

Where can I buy a bottle like that? I'd be very interested...
--
Rainy "Collect all zero" Day
[ Parent ]
I'm wondering (none / 0) (#353)
by Dephex Twin on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 02:16:58 PM EST

If you are taking a lot of the stuff, is it possible to move your eyes independently of each other?  I had some chemical put in my eyes once that made everything appear really tiny, like you were talking about, and I could move each eye independently.  I attributed it to them being highly relaxed.  I wonder if the same thing is going on.

mark


Alcohol: the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems. -- Homer Simpson
[ Parent ]

no (none / 0) (#380)
by Rainy on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 09:52:24 PM EST

Never did that, but then again, I never tried, either.
--
Rainy "Collect all zero" Day
[ Parent ]
Oh, man ... (none / 0) (#287)
by pyramid termite on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 12:19:54 AM EST

In the late 80's me and my girlfriend at the time were given some whitish powder that we were told was ecstasy. Being from a small Midwestern city, neither we or the person who sold it to us would have known for sure what it was, as E was very rare. The effects were at first odd. Everything I looked at seemed to jitter back and forth and I started sweating a lot. It was disorientating and gradually scary. I felt totally overwhelmed and laid down to close my eyes for a minute and sank into a black hole, not able to think, not even able to retain my identity. My girlfriend was trying to talk to me and although I heard the sound I couldn't process it or even understand that I was someone that someone else was communicating with. It felt like dying, but not in the mystical, oh, my mind is leaving my body and going to the white light kind of way, but nasty and ugly and creepy. My girlfriend pulled my up to sit up and I got sick, which seemed to pull me out of it a bit. Still, what was left in my system was enough to make me feel euphoric but also frightened and shaky. It was a bad trip; much worse than anything I'd ever experienced or thought possible on acid - it wasn't mentally bad so much as physically and nervously bad.

A while back I happened to run across the DXM FAQ and realized that it was likely that what I had taken was powdered DXM. Not only do I not recommend it, but I must also say that it caused me to stop dropping acid every few months and made my pot use less enjoyable after that. In a few years, I quit doing drugs and I think that experience had something to do with it.
On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
[ Parent ]
Actually, (none / 0) (#316)
by boyde on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:41:13 AM EST

that sounds very similar to the effects of a large-ish dose of ketamine.


Rolling around in the muck is no way to get clean.
[ Parent ]

Don't give DMX cough syrup to your kids (none / 0) (#341)
by jforan on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 12:12:02 PM EST

It took a stupid experiment with cough syrup (do not do it) to realize a lot of the nightmares I had as a child when I was sick were due to the cough syrup.  They were really freaky at the time, and I didn't understand how being sick would make me see and think that crazy shit, especially when I was really young.

It was a horrible experience then and was a horrible experience in college.

Jeff
I hops to be barley workin'.
[ Parent ]

My reaction (3.83 / 12) (#49)
by Silent Chris on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 08:45:10 AM EST

Flowered prose yields purple inconsistencies of varying hues. The wordthoughts you scream in the din press against my temple, and I'm but to utter one simple phrase: Neverland. The hairy chemicals but only change the length of the harp strings; they do not change the vibrations or the tune already within. I suggest listening to the melody in a natural state, and leaving the artifical crutches behind.

I like your analogy (none / 0) (#177)
by Meatbomb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:24:37 PM EST

But don't share your conclusion. Taking LSD makes you realize that the length of the strings is really quite arbitrary, and just a little tweak in your brain can make the "reality" we all live in be interpreted in a myriad of other ways.
You don't know how cool your harp is till you've played a few.

_______________

Good News for Liberal Democracy!

[ Parent ]
What about natural entheogens? (5.00 / 1) (#260)
by MisterX on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 07:52:35 PM EST

I suggest listening to the melody in a natural state, and leaving the artifical crutches behind

Also possible. Cannabis. Salvia. Mushrooms. Cacti. There are many natural assistants to enjoying the melody in all its many forms. Get informed. Don't miss out.

[ Parent ]

Hmmm ... (4.00 / 1) (#288)
by pyramid termite on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 12:28:56 AM EST

I'm not really disagreeing with your take on drugs here, but I should point out that common patterns of thoughts and language can also be artifical crutches. Acid has the effect of kicking away the crutches for a few hours and forcing one to percieve the world and oneself differently and more intensely. It can take you far down the path of clear and original perception much quicker than any other method I know. That being said, it's only going to take you so far and to develop this further, one has to learn to work at this with one's own mind in its natural state. And of course, if one is willing to be patient, one does not have to be shoved down that path by taking drugs; it is possible to get there without them. It's a lot more work, but eventually, it has to be worked at hard anyway.
On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
[ Parent ]
Peak experiences (4.88 / 9) (#50)
by sebpaquet on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 09:00:13 AM EST

are wonderful, but there are several ways to have them other than using drugs. The Global Ideas Bank lists 14 ways of reaching the Being realm. I recommend anyone who's interested in that to look it up.
----
Seb's Open Research - Pointers and thoughts on the evolution of knowledge sharing and scholarly communication.
Interesting was of reaching Being (4.00 / 4) (#85)
by Humuhumunukunukuapuaa on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 12:57:23 PM EST

(3) Step into the world of pure philosophy, pure mathematics, or pure science

Yup.  There's nothing like a dose of transfinite set theory to get you thinking the trippiest thoughts and jabbering so that you sound like an idiot to anyone else who isn't in the know!

[ Parent ]
a few other ways (none / 0) (#199)
by tps12 on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:05:25 PM EST

Step into the world of pure car repair, pure role-playing games, or pure obscure jazz music.

[ Parent ]
Shit man! Wish I could have trippy thoughts... (none / 0) (#226)
by Humuhumunukunukuapuaa on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:42:47 PM EST

...thinking about car repair.

[ Parent ]
Try old British cars.... (none / 0) (#277)
by TheCaptain on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 10:59:52 PM EST

they are a mind opening experience. Generator...not alternator. Positive earth, not negative earth. Side draft carbs...usually several per engine...all of which have to be tuned to work together. The Lucas electrical components...Lucas was referred to as "The Prince of Darkness" for a reason! And oh man....the rust....

Seriously...that stuff can screw you up if your not prepared for the experience. It pulls your mind into a whole different way of thinking about things when your used to the old domestics in the U.S. :)

[ Parent ]
Not only have I experienced Lucas (4.00 / 1) (#348)
by Humuhumunukunukuapuaa on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 01:15:31 PM EST

But I've spent a few weeks forking for them in Britain.  I had a job one summer working in their technical drawing dept.  Not a computer in sight (actually, they did have one, but nobody knew how to use it).  When they wanted a blueprint printed I was the person who did it on the blueprint machine.  These were real blueprints printed using ammonia.   It was like a return to Victorian times and I spent my entire day immersed in ammonia vapors.  They could get pretty trippy after a while!

[ Parent ]
Try this... (none / 0) (#394)
by cascadefx on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 11:47:29 AM EST

According to a car enthusiast I talked to at a local show, your mind definitely gets expanded when you not only rebuild the engine of some "classically old" cars but also have to machine a good portion of the parts.

[ Parent ]
What a hypocrite (5.00 / 1) (#390)
by beg2differ on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 09:20:53 AM EST

I found the advice listed here to be inherently contradictory. In the body of this essay the editor, Edward Hoffman, claims that Maslow looked with disdain upon those who were "gluttonous in their approach to spiritual experience." Hoffman adds that Maslow believed that "The notion of consciousness for consciousness's sake is amoral." Yet look at the title of the essay itself: Creating peak experiences by focusing on them... the bulk of this essay is devoted to laying out a methodology for self-inducing spiritual experiences. If this methodology works, what a boon for the gluttonous! And since these altered states of consciousness are said to emerge as a result of indulging in these handy little exercises, what is this if not an endorsement for altering consciousness for consciousness' sake?

I found particularly hypocritical Maslow's condemnation of the act of:

Using other people as a means to alter one's consciousness rather than to enter an I-thou relationship
Since his fourteenth suggestion for inducing a so-called peak experience is:
(14) Try addressing yourself, or talking or writing, not to the people immediately around you but over their shoulders, that is, to history's great figures like Beethoven, William James, Immanuel Kant, Socrates, or Alfred Whitehead.
If you were to follow such advice, what are you doing but reducing those around you to mere props? You're not entering into an "I-thou" relationship with them at all... While going through the motions of interacting with them, you're living a make-believe, Walter-Mitty-style life, where you find yourself surrounded by people whom you regard as being more worthy of your time than those who happen to be darkening your threshold.

I think it's a hell of a lot more honest to say, "I want to experience altered states of consciousness, and I am going to go out of my way to do so" by taking drugs, spending years in meditative discipline, or whatever path happens to be personally appealing. From this essay it would seem that Maslow shares that desire but isn't comfortable with it unless he's had a chance to dress it up, and made it look like something else, something more honorable, more intellectual (pretend to be talking to Immanuel Kant???? That's so incredibly lame....)



[ Parent ]

I am glad someone said it... (5.00 / 1) (#398)
by cascadefx on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 12:12:44 PM EST

I've come across these before and I am glad that someone else beat me to posting them.

Maybe it's me, but using drugs to "reach a higher conciousness" seems to easy and less real to me. While perception is reality, augmented (by drugs) reality seems a poor substitute.

My preference is for those other means of reaching a Peak experience or the Being level.

Generally, they:

  • Do not cause paranoid episodes.
  • Have a quality that is controlled by the user (few people make their LSD).
  • Do not have bad reactions in most people (unless you really hate babies and children).
  • Expand your mind in useful ways. There is only so much value in "seeing" the blood flow through your body or "hearing" each individual violin.
  • Are mind expanding AND mind altering

The best argument I have seen against LSD was a documentary about Hallucinigenic Culture (forget the name) that was very pro drugs and pro LSD, but the last segment had the obligatory "cautionary tale." In it was a guy who had altered his perception and conciousness so much that he could no longer see/percieve people as anything more than a collection of shifting colored dots. This was actually confirmed through various visual and percpetual tests. How did the guy feel about this alteration of his perception? His was suffering from depression and tried suicide multiple times. The plain fact is that by using LSD, and being "unlucky" or not being able to "handle" it, he had totally fucked himself up for the rest of his life.

The thing is, there is no way to tell before taking the drug if you are going to be "unlucky" or unable to "handle" it. It seems like an awfully high price to pay to me for a gamble like that.

[ Parent ]

Yes! You don't need drugs (none / 0) (#406)
by Steeltoe on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 07:28:14 PM EST

...to get fantastic experiences in your life.

I understand that some people don't want to dedicate themselves to something wholly positive, both for their physical and mental health, right now. On the surface, you take drugs to be social with friends and have a good time. The body be damned, it'll grow old and die in the long run anyways. Why prolong the suffering? Now with LSD, you can have a clean "safe" trip to wonderland. Sure it's a bit expensive, but you don't need many hits and you can experience all sorts of shit. It's a perfect shortcut, for some people.

What did the '69 generation grow up to become? Without generalizing too much, I'd say SOMEONE changed their ideals radically and are now using double-standards against their own offspring while being blind to actual reality.

The reformed alchoholist is usually the strongest advocate against alchohol.

In other words, maybe it's a good idea to study why people stop taking drugs. If it's so great, what makes people go off it?

When you've had an incredible high, a peak experience in your life, normal day-to-day life becomes dull and boring. Nothing compares to that artificially-induced state of bliss and wonderment. It leaves you empty and dried out.

Because "normal" day-to-day life IS dull and boring, and your body will either die or adapt to whatever chemicals you stuff into it.

UNLESS, _You_ make your life interesting! If you can paint colours in the air during a trip, why not do so when sober? Dance while doing it with your eyes closed! If you can notice small details in everything, do so, you don't need a substance to reconnect with your life. Be the child that rediscovers its world.

THAT is what the majority has missed. People getting burned or burned out rejoin the docile population that either work too much and/or complain too much.

Having been stretched out to the extreme, the rubber band contracts, becoming even sloppier than ever!

What is needed is naturalness, innocence and love. Seek that what is good for you in the long run that includes it, and you'll have no need for hallucinations. Chasing short-term happiness always ends in frustration, unfulfillment and dullness.

Like the Indian God Shiva, have one foot firmly placed on the ground, while dancing with the other high up in the air. You can enjoy both worlds if you just find your balance/center/zone. Metaphysics can be fun to play with, but is not a foundation to base your worldly life on.

Disclaimer: I have never used LSD, so I may not know what I'm blabbering about. This is just in my general experience and knowledge at present time. I DO know a lot of former junkies that are enjoying life more now, in a much more natural and wholistic way.
Explore the Art of Living

[ Parent ]

sweet (4.20 / 5) (#52)
by shivers on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 09:13:57 AM EST

Great story, I used to do a whole load of acid a few years ago and this really brings back the memories :))

In terms of how your surroundings look when you're tripping I always used to explain it like another layer on top of reality.  Like. you can see what is there in front of you and there's a thin layer of trippy stuff with groovy things on it just over the top of everything.

Darker areas are always good; the brain naturally fills in dark shadowy silhouettes with what it thinks is probably there (it does this all the time), but on acid its amazing, you can pretty much convince yourself that anything is there.

The other thing this article reminds me of is how totally impossible it is to explain what tripping is like to someone who hasn't experienced it.  I don't mean to sound elitest (?) or anything, but the absolute profoundness of it is not describable in words.

+1 FP.

Darkness can be bad. (4.50 / 2) (#62)
by wiredog on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 10:03:10 AM EST

you can pretty much convince yourself that anything is there.

See "trip, bad".

Can't sleep. The clowns will get me.
[ Parent ]

lol! (none / 0) (#65)
by shivers on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 10:10:18 AM EST

Fair point - but I like the dark so I like seeing good things there.

The best one I remember was a shut door with bright lights the other side.  We managed to convince ourselves it was the doorway to club Tropicana and that loads of silhouettes of can-can girls and huge cocktails were going past.  Silhouttes with the edges drawn in like multicoloured fairy lights.  It was sweet...

[ Parent ]

Where? (3.50 / 2) (#72)
by DrWee on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 11:26:05 AM EST

So tell me, how can you identify that what you have is what you want?

You mentioned that it took you a few times to get ahold of the right stuff, so how did you know?

It's hard to find good stuff around here.  Ever thought about making your own?  Morning glory seeds and petroleum ether goes a long ways.  (Or is that the wrong type of acid, hah).

Answers (4.50 / 2) (#95)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:46:45 PM EST

So tell me, how can you identify that what you have is what you want?
Basically, you eat it and see if you start tripping. One good thing about blotter acid is if you're gonna sell fake stuff, it's easiest to do it with just paper. Eating a tiny square of paper isn't so bad as injecting baking soda for instance.

You mentioned that it took you a few times to get ahold of the right stuff, so how did you know?
Can't speak for the author, but I've known it's bad acid when two hours later I'm still straight.

It's hard to find good stuff around here. Ever thought about making your own? Morning glory seeds and petroleum ether goes a long ways. (Or is that the wrong type of acid, hah).
The recipe from the Anarchists Cookbook will not make LSD. It might make something fairly trippy, but it won't be LSD. You need a real lab for that.

        Pre...........
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
BAD (4.00 / 1) (#107)
by Purple Walrus on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:03:20 PM EST

I have never read the Anarchist's Cookbook but I have heard that one of the recipies is mixing battery acid with tinfoil or something along those lines. Please do not be stupid and don't try to drink/eat battery acid. Sure it may be fun for a bit but think about the damage! Stick to safer stuff like heroin. At least with heroin it doesn't destroy all of your internal organs so quickly and it feels better.

I just felt I needed to post that in case anyone had any spare double-A batteries lying around...

---
Walrus
[ Parent ]
I read bits of it years ago. (none / 0) (#120)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:35:56 PM EST

I think, if I remember rightly, the LSD recipie was basically extracting something (not LSD, as I said, but the book pretended it was) from Morning Glory seeds using petrol as some kind of desolvent.

I can't remember how they got rid of the petrol in the end. Probably just let it evaporate. God knows what you'd end up with, like i said though, it definately won't be LSD.

Actually, that's why I didn't bother reading most of it. The stuff I did read was so wildly innacurate and broken I couldn't see why anyone got worked up about it, except for over it's wild inaccuracy.

        Pre.......
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
"Need a real lab for that" (4.66 / 3) (#108)
by Polverone on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:04:13 PM EST

You don't just need a "real lab" to make LSD; you need to be a top-notch synthetic chemist and have access to some sophisticated equipment and restricted chemicals.

There are a number of drugs that can be synthesized in a basement by someone patient and clever. LSD isn't one of them. You'd have an easier time making Sarin than LSD, and that's no cakewalk.
--
It's not a just, good idea; it's the law.
[ Parent ]

Well (4.00 / 1) (#105)
by Purple Walrus on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:58:47 PM EST

If you buy acid on a piece of blotter paper, there is no way that it can be laced with anything, therefore you're either buying LSD or a piece of paper. There is no chance that it's spiked with any other drug because any other drug would be visible on the paper.

Morning Glory seeds have LSA which is a `cousin` of LSD. I guess if you eat enough seeds it makes you trip although not as much as taking pure LSD. O yea, and synthesizing your own LSD is a pain in the ass I hear, it requires a very thorough knowledge of chemistry.

If I made any mistakes in my post, please correct them!

---
Walrus
[ Parent ]
Not quite... (5.00 / 2) (#187)
by pla on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:48:42 PM EST

A good number of things will "fit" on blotter.

Botulin comes to mind. Levothyroxine (and quite a few other hormones). Some opiates (fentanyl, for example). Almost any nasty biological agent. Lots more that I can't think of off the top of my head.

The more important issue consists of what one will *likely* get on blotter. All of the above would imply deliberate adulteration, which the potential tripper can't really guard against. In practice, you'll never see anything on blotter *accidentally* other than LSD.

As for making your own, don't bother even trying. I know enough organic chemistry to conceptually follow the reactions, and not only would most people (myself included) not have either the equipment or the chemicals, they would almost certainly end up not successfully making any active product. And it would smell *really* bad... People think hiding the smell of pot brownies from the neighbors seems hard? Imagine hiding something that smells about as strongly as (and not too dissimilar from ) an open pit of raw sewage from them.

WRT morning glories, again, don't bother. "dirty" makes a good description of the trip one will manage, if any.

If people really want to experience an acid-like trip and don't already "know the chemist", stick with 'shrooms. One can legally buy spores, they grow *very* easily, and although some may disagree, the trip has much of the character of LSD (psylicin, like LSD, acts as a nonselective 5HT reuptake inhibitor and, though looking at the molecules you wouldn't think so, the pharmacologically active bits have the same basic structure). Kinda like the difference between vicodin and percocet, some people notice it, but only a subtle difference exists.


[ Parent ]
Whoa! (none / 0) (#203)
by Purple Walrus on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:10:29 PM EST

You seem like someone who knows exactly how LSD and other hallucinogens act on the brain... Could you give me a brief overview of how this happens without going TOO deep into chemistry jargon? (If that is possible)

I've always wanted to know which parts of the brain get shutdown/become more active during a trip...

---
Walrus
[ Parent ]
Just a bit, and some links. (5.00 / 4) (#255)
by pla on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 07:41:59 PM EST

You seem like someone who knows exactly how LSD and other hallucinogens act on the brain

Just someone who doesn't take *anything*, legal or otherwise, without understanding what it does to my body. Unfortunately, something you'll discover if you get into pharmacology, 90% of the (legal!) drugs on the market have a "suspected" mechanism of action, meaning "it acts strongly on X, but we have no idea why that results in this particular effect". LSD does not differ in that regard... It technically acts as a 5HT2 partial agonist (yeah, I said it acts as an NSRI in the post you replied to... a "little white lie", but people more readily understand the general idea that it "does something to serotonin" by comparison with SSRIs like Prozac, even though incorrect <G>). But, what does that *mean*? Not a lot, really.


I've always wanted to know which parts of the brain get shutdown/become more active during a trip...

For a good source of info on the action of quite a few illegal drugs, check out Erowid. They have some fairly good info, including a FAQ on LSD. The Lycaeum Also has similarly good information, largely overlapping but worth checking both before trying anything new.

So, LSD in particular...

First, serotonin makes an evolutionarily "new" addition to our brains. All the "highest" systems make heavy use of it, including our nice spiffy frontal lobes (and specifically, prefrontal cortex) that seem to give us an edge (intelligence-wise) over every other animal on earth. It also exists outside the brain, which happens to (partially) explain why LSD causes things like jaw clenching and nystagmus... Believe it or not, LSD has *more* effect on smooth muscle tissue than it does in the brain.

So, LSD acts as a 5HT2 partial agonist. That means that it lowers the amount of serotonin (aka 5HT, 5-hydroxy triptophan, the "2" just designates a particular type of postsynaptic receptor) that gets dumped into a synapse, but at the same time actually has a little bit of effect similar to serotonin itself. Of course, keep in mind that this just makes the "best" theory, in that it explains the most aspects of what LSD seems to do on the "local" level. A good site with some competing theories as to its actual action in a serotonergic synapse lives here .

So what does serotonin do...

It acts to *prevent* the postsynaptic cell from firing (ie, it acts as an "inhibitory" neurotransmitter). So, decreasing serotonin release into a synapse increases the rate of firing of the postsynaptic cell.

So, it "speeds up" the outer layer of the brain. This doesn't mean you think faster (and certainly not "better"), just differently.

So, now that you have that down...

LSD also acts on norepinephrine receptors, though *far* less studied. I'll focus on the system here, rather than the chemistry, for that reason.

The Locus Coeruleus, which communicates primarily using norepinephrine (thus the connection with LSD) acts as the "gate" for letting sensory input get through to the parts of us we consider "us" <G>. most of the time, it filters out the *huge* majority of information we receive, but LSD sort of forces it open, so we become aware of countless features of our environment we normally don't notice. On the down side, it sort of garbles the transmission, thus leading to the cross-modal experiences one can sometimes experience while tripping (like "hearing" a color, although personally I've never experienced anything even nearly that obvious).

Okay, I intended to write something more about the interactions between dopamine and norepinephrine, and how LSD affects this relationsship which then leads to emotional changes and twitchiness (yes, both), but I don't think I can do so without going *way* beyond what I've written so far. Suffice it to say, we have a central pathway (the substantia nigra) through the brain, that uses dopamine as its internal neurotransmitter, but has adrenergic systems at one end and movement at the other, with a pit stop in the limbic system, which controls out emotions.


[ Parent ]
Serotonin and animals. (none / 0) (#304)
by Ranieri on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 04:30:40 AM EST

First, serotonin makes an evolutionarily "new" addition to our brains. All the "highest" systems make heavy use of it, including our nice spiffy frontal lobes (and specifically, prefrontal cortex) that seem to give us an edge (intelligence-wise) over every other animal on earth.

If serotonin is a "new" addition, and LSD acts primarily on this neurotransmitter, why are life-forms like arachnids affected by it?
--
Taste cold steel, feeble cannon restraint rope!
[ Parent ]

You *did* read the rest, right? (none / 0) (#408)
by pla on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 08:43:58 PM EST

If serotonin is a "new" addition, and LSD acts primarily on this neurotransmitter, why are life-forms like arachnids affected by it?

To re-quote the rest of the paragraph you snipped in half, "It also exists outside the brain, which happens to (partially) explain why LSD causes things like jaw clenching and nystagmus... Believe it or not, LSD has *more* effect on smooth muscle tissue than it does in the brain."

Additionally, to re-quote what I wrote a bit further on (but still in the same comment), "LSD also acts on norepinephrine receptors, though *far* less studied."

Does that about cover it?


[ Parent ]
LSD Stories. (3.80 / 5) (#83)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 12:40:18 PM EST

For what it's worth, one of my trip reports was posted to my diary ages ago. It was about the nearest I ever got to a bad trip, and it wasn't particually bad really, just unexpectedly strong I think.

         Pre............
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
The Doors of Perception (4.71 / 7) (#89)
by Shpongle Spore on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:30:53 PM EST

Adlous Huxley said that acid opened the "doors of perception" to him.

Actually it was mescaline, not acid. I recommend you read "The Doors of Perception"--it's very short, and a good read, though somewhat redundant if you've already TiHKAL by Shulgin (which I also highly recommend).
__
I wish I was in Austin, at the Chili Parlor bar,
drinking 'Mad Dog' margaritas and not caring where you are

you're right (4.00 / 1) (#147)
by tuj on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:08:55 PM EST

Actually it was mescaline, not acid.

You're absolutely right. Same for Leary's first experiences also. My mistake.

Shulgin is wonderful. I've read parts of TiHKAL and PiHKAL. Amazing how one guy could be the first with so many different chemicals.



[ Parent ]
Altered perception (4.83 / 6) (#96)
by johnw on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:48:48 PM EST

What I have wondered most about psychedelic drug use is that people speak so much about "altered perception", as if drugs were the best way to achieve this. But why is it that no one ever shares these altered perceptions in a way that changes how I see the world around me? Philosophers and thinkers can do this; but drug users only ever seem to suggest that I have to take drugs to experience it too. It makes it seem a whole lot more like a subjective experience without much validity (i.e., justification). I mean, if your self has truly been vastened by the experience, where is the evidence?



Hummm (3.00 / 2) (#100)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:55:19 PM EST

Sergent Peppers, Alice in Wonderland, a lot of video feedback effects in pop videos, psychedelic dance music, wood carvings by Escher. They can all give you a glimpse.

LSD is pretty hard to describe though, can you describe the changes in your perception after reading Socrates or whoever? Or would we have to read the book (or listen to it essentially remembered and read aloud) to understand the experience too?

I've never heard anyone say that drugs are the only way to change perception. I've heard people say, and would agree, that they're the easiest though. It's also a different change to working through higher maths problems and suchlike.

       Pre............
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
you do.. (2.33 / 3) (#109)
by trener on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:08:46 PM EST

you just can't put into words the effect some drugs have. it changes how you -feel- things, how you experience things. you can try to explain it, but at best, you'll only be able to give a really vague, intellectual idea of what it's like. at worst (as is most often the case), it's like describing colors to a blind man.

once you've tried it, you'll go back and read what people have written about the drugs and go "holy shit, that's so right, that's -exactly- what it was like." but until you've experienced it personally, you won't truly understand what's being described.

[ Parent ]
What I meant was... (5.00 / 1) (#179)
by johnw on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:27:03 PM EST

I didn't mean to question the experience of tripping, which I can easily believe is far better than I could imagine. What I question is the fruits of such "perceptual alteration". Mystics write about their experience, philosophers discuss it, etc. But trippers just say how great it was, yet it seems that it's just a trip, and nothing any deeper than that.



[ Parent ]
Scientific age. (none / 0) (#196)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:00:42 PM EST

How many of those mystics and philosophers lived in the last half century or so since LSD was invented/discovered?

The difference isn't one in the things themselevs but the in age they were used. Do you think if Socrates or whoever it was were alive today he'd still be insisting on his shadows on a cave wall thing? If you were pushed back in time and hung out with some mystics taking henbane or whatever would you use scientific language to disrcribe it or switch to the metaphysics they used for everything else too?

LSD is a young drug, if it had been around for the last millenium, there'd be plenty of metaphysical philosophy and art around based on it.

       Pre..........
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
Picking nits. (5.00 / 2) (#215)
by Ranieri on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:21:23 PM EST

Do you think if Socrates or whoever it was were alive today he'd still be insisting on his shadows on a cave wall thing?

I believe that was Plato.
--
Taste cold steel, feeble cannon restraint rope!
[ Parent ]

Probably (none / 0) (#218)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:25:48 PM EST

I pretty much admited in the post that I wasn't sure. I suck at remembering names.

         Pre.........
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
It was probably Plato. (5.00 / 1) (#272)
by haflinger on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 09:17:10 PM EST

Socrates never wrote any books. In Plato's early books, he has Socrates as a character, and in these books, it's generally accepted that what Plato has Socrates saying was stuff that Socrates really said. However, in his later books, he also has Socrates as a character, and in these books, it's generally accepted that what Plato has Socrates saying was stuff that Plato thought.

Incidentally, in Plato's last book, Socrates doesn't appear at all.

Anyway, the cave story is in Plato's middle period, where it's fuzzy. It might well have been something Socrates really said. But it probably wasn't: it fits too neatly into Plato's epistemological theories.

Did people from the future send George Carlin back in time to save rusty and K5? - leviramsey
[ Parent ]

Some Contrete Depth (none / 0) (#276)
by jac on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 10:58:56 PM EST

For me, it made me aware, tangibly aware, that my internal persepective was just that: a perspective.

People often go on and on about perspectives and paradigms, but experiencing it, with respect to your own self, history, beliefs and unacknowledged assumptions makes appreciating "the Other" feel concrete.  People, with whom I have discussed tripping, generally agree with this point.

Granted one can achieve such an appreciation through other means, however psychedelics seem to expedite it.  Also, since many LSD users tend to be younger, a deep appreciation of the existence of other ways of viewing something may help make a person more tolerant and perhaps less xenophobic as they learn more and more about the big world out there.  That was certainly the case for me and while I haven't used it in over 10 years, I still value what I gleaned from my experiences.

--
You are not what you eat. You're what you don't poop.
[ Parent ]

Yes, definitely (none / 0) (#417)
by spiralx on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 06:04:03 AM EST

The way I see it is that acid kind of floods your brain (not literally of course :) meaning that your brain makes connections between things that it wouldn't normally... essentially lowering the firing threshold of neurons. So you see patterns in everything... your brain sees regular features where there are none, hears music where there is really just noise and so on. And exactly the same thing can happen with yourself. Everyone has ingrained behaviours that they don't ever think about... it's just them. But on acid your brain can make the leap and connect up things about yourself and what you do, and it can allow you to realise things about yourself you wouldn't normally discover.

Doing this myself on many occasions has I honestly think helped me to become a nicer person... by recognising various things I did that I didn't like, I was able to change them rather than just letting them go on and on.

It's a subtle thing, and it doesn't happen often. If a trip is pretty intense then the barrage of perception will leave the tripper with no space to think in this way. When it's happened to me it's generally been at the end of a trip, when I'm sitting down and relaxing as the effects wear off slowly.

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

Yes, definitely (none / 0) (#418)
by spiralx on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 06:05:13 AM EST

The way I see it is that acid kind of floods your brain (not literally of course :) meaning that your brain makes connections between things that it wouldn't normally... essentially lowering the firing threshold of neurons. So you see patterns in everything... your brain sees regular features where there are none, hears music where there is really just noise and so on. And exactly the same thing can happen with yourself. Everyone has ingrained behaviours that they don't ever think about... it's just them. But on acid your brain can make the leap and connect up things about yourself and what you do, and it can allow you to realise things about yourself you wouldn't normally discover.

Doing this myself on many occasions has I honestly think helped me to become a nicer person... by recognising various things I did that I didn't like, I was able to change them rather than just letting them go on and on.

It's a subtle thing, and it doesn't happen often. If a trip is pretty intense then the barrage of perception will leave the tripper with no space to think in this way. When it's happened to me it's generally been at the end of a trip, when I'm sitting down and relaxing as the effects wear off slowly.

By the way my neuron thingy above is, as far as I know, completely baseless in fact. But it does describe things well I think :)

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

You can't describe it (3.33 / 3) (#118)
by Dphitz on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:25:39 PM EST

to someone who's never tried it.  It's like trying to explain to someone what sex feels like.  What words do you use other than, "it feels great"?  It also feels great to get an A on a test but it certainly isn't anything like sex.  If it was a feeling you could relay or experience simply through description there would be no use for the drug.


God, please save me . . . from your followers

[ Parent ]
totally agree (3.00 / 2) (#170)
by shivers on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:03:41 PM EST

I completely agree; there is no possible way to describe what tripping is like.  People nod and agree and stuff and have no idea; you can only get through to people who have done it before and have an idea what you're on about.

(and I know I'm not the most eloquent person in the world, but thats not the point...)

[ Parent ]

I suggest (5.00 / 2) (#121)
by majubma on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:36:34 PM EST

Y'know, some people are better at communicating things than others. I wouldn't expect the average Christian to be able to explain to me the highlights of Christianity in a way that I could understand. Lots of them would insist that I must accept Jesus into my heart for myself in order to understand.

Expressing any kind of mental state to a person unfamiliar with that state is pretty difficult, and to do it well is almost impossible. Good philosophers can do it, only because otherwise they wouldn't be good philosophers. So find yourself a drug-taking philosopher and talk to him.

Alternately, accompany (sober) some hallucinogen-taking friends on a trip, in some kind of pleasant stimulating environment (gardens or arboretums work). You should be able to get more of a sense of the experience from interacting with a person in the altered state, and noticing what kinds of things grab their attention.


--Thaddeus Q. Thaddelonium, the most crookedest octopus lawyer in the West.
[ Parent ]

I have... not recommended (1.00 / 1) (#399)
by cascadefx on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 12:29:49 PM EST

Alternately, accompany (sober) some hallucinogen-taking friends on a trip, in some kind of pleasant stimulating environment (gardens or arboretums work). You should be able to get more of a sense of the experience from interacting with a person in the altered state, and noticing what kinds of things grab their attention.

I have accompanied people in such a state and it wasn't enlightening... insipid is the word that I would use. The joke about people under under the influence of hallucinogens always talking about their hands is a stereotype, but it happens an aweful lot. Their "revelations" are generally idiotic or elementary to those that are not stoned around them.

My argument is that if you take someone who is smart/creative, they will generally be smart/creative while on drugs... but not necessarily more enlighting. I think this accounts for the "genius" found in the drug-culture's examples of creativity while stoned. The problem is that there is no control group. The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, Maslow... were all talented to begin with. They did great work while not under the influence.

LSD doesn't make boring people interesting... or creative. If they created crap before, they will just create drug-induced crap... but they will feel better about it. Stoned people are generally insipid unless you are on drugs with them it would seem.

[ Parent ]

Castaneda (none / 0) (#143)
by sydb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:03:52 PM EST

changed the way I see the world before I ever had a psychedlic experience.

Anyway, some say he's a charlatan. Have a look at the Erowid Experience Vaults to see if there are any descriptions that can make you see the light. There are many lucid and interesting tales.
--

Making Linux GPL'd was definitely the best thing I ever did - Linus Torvalds
[ Parent ]

LSD Wonderful yet Dangerous (4.50 / 6) (#97)
by megodzillaudead on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:51:17 PM EST

First off, I want to commend you on a very well written article and agree with what you're saying; however, I would also point out that there is some danger in the use of LSD. Just like any substance (including legal ones), there is the possibility of abuse: a close friend of mine hasn't been the same after tripping fairly consistantly for almost a year. This is exactly why we need drug education and not drug prohibition. My own experiences with LSD and many other psychedelics have lead me to firmly believe that drugs can be used for good; in fact I thank LSD for helping me to get out of the house more and become less of a hermit, one of the best things that has ever happened to me.

of course (none / 0) (#137)
by Goatmaster on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:57:28 PM EST

Of course drugs that have been deemed illegal can still be used for good. However, I'm wondering about this talk of abuse. LSD tolerence is built up extremely fast, making it nearly impossible to have the same effects if you do it too often. As well, the last thing someone wants to do after taking LSD is to do it again right away. Then again, there's always someone that seems to not follow the general rules.

You're correct about education however, it's definately the way to go, far more constructive.


... and so the Goatmaster has spoken
[ Parent ]
LSD junkies (none / 0) (#176)
by Meatbomb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:15:42 PM EST

I have met people who develop the lifestyle evn though it isn't physically addictive. It is quite possible to trip out once or twice a week, which after a while really eats into the rest of your life.
As others have said, trips are a nice place to be but you can't live in that world. In the end apply the experiences to life in the real world.

_______________

Good News for Liberal Democracy!

[ Parent ]
Acid drought of '02 (2.00 / 2) (#104)
by shower blue on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:58:46 PM EST

widespread panic may cancel all remaining tour dates for the year. dead re-union put on hold.

cancelled due to no LSD? (none / 0) (#233)
by Falling uP on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:59:12 PM EST

wait what are you saying? they cancelled their tour b/c noone can get acid? is that really true b/c i've found it pretty hard to get around my area and was wondering the cause of it. a friend of mine ABSOLUTELY INSISTS that all acid is made by a small group of lab-rats working out of san francisco. other people may know how to dilute it or condense it but these people in SF(supposedly--mind you i don't believe him) are the only ones with the original recipe. i was wondering if maybe they managed to get busted and that's why it's all dry. any thoughts?

[ Parent ]
Manufacture (none / 0) (#279)
by chroma on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 11:13:17 PM EST

The process is well documented in many scientific papers, as well as several patents. While it's not something that could be done by just any bozo in his kitchen, it's not beyond someone with a college-level knowledge of organic chemistry and some good lab equipment.

Think of this, though: just 100 kilograms of the substance in question is enough to dose everyone on the planet 16 times over.

[ Parent ]

double standard (3.90 / 10) (#106)
by turmeric on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 01:59:34 PM EST

why is it 'ok' to have 'altered consciousness' with a drug? but somehow religious people are considered 'backwards' and 'stupid'? or people who get altered consciuosness from nature parks, or from meditation?

because.. (4.80 / 5) (#110)
by trener on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:12:15 PM EST

people taking drugs realize that what's happening to them is just some fucked up chemistry in the brain. (well, maybe not during the trip...)

people talking to god think they're talking to god.

[ Parent ]
Fallacy alert! (none / 0) (#128)
by Groby on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:47:01 PM EST

People talking to god only think they're talking to god as long as their trip lasts, also. However, religious trips usually last way longer than drug induced ones :)

[ Parent ]
Not so (4.75 / 4) (#132)
by sydb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:52:39 PM EST

Psychedelic drugs, commonly referred to as 'entheogens', provide the participant a repeatable, durable and first-hand experience of an altered state.

Religion (of the organised variety) provides the participant with the feeling of being at home in a crowd and safe when they die.

These are not the same thing.

Many users of psychedelics feel that their experiences have given them access to the 'other world' - the spiritual world, that which is outside and untouched by culture and indoctrination. Psychedelics produce a durable and repeatable gateway to this arena of consciousness. These two attributes allow the explorer to become familiar with that world (in as much as one can) and propose and test hypotheses relating to its laws. Thus a kind of scientific approach may be taken to the altered consciousness of psychedelics.

There are people who have spontaneous experiences which they relate to their religious beliefs, such as near death experiences, visions of the madonna, that sort of thing. These are certainly first hand experiences, but they are not durable or repeatable. Thus there is no opportunity for the considered exploration of the mental state of this altered consciousness. There can be no rational analysis.

Those who DO have repeated and long-lasting experiences which they attribute to some kind of contact with god are usually unable to analyse their experiences because they are psychotic.

This is why 'religious' people are considered stupid and 'psychonauts' might actually have something interesting to say.
--

Making Linux GPL'd was definitely the best thing I ever did - Linus Torvalds
[ Parent ]

Meditation and Nature Parks (none / 0) (#135)
by sydb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:55:48 PM EST

Forgot to ask, who thinks these people are stupid or backward?
--

Making Linux GPL'd was definitely the best thing I ever did - Linus Torvalds
[ Parent ]

Try talking to each in person (none / 0) (#146)
by peace on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:07:27 PM EST

The thing about religious nuts is that it's almost impossible to hold an intelligent conversation with them. Talking to someone who has or is tripping generally leads to more productive and interesting topics. Religious abusers tend to want to talk about otherworldly experiences, disconnected from the realm of reality or words whispered to them in secret that direct their daily action. People on drugs tend to want to talk about society, their feelings or idealism.

Actually, one of the problems is that it is not ok to have altered consciousness experiences with chemicals but it is ok to have pharmaceuticaly vacuous religious experiences. So you have a lot of people loudly proclaiming personal enlightenment through Jesus or Allah who would be better off smoking a faty with some of their best friends.

Kind Regards,
peace

p.s. Not that I don't know some very enlightening religious folks, but I presume your talking about the freaks ;)

[ Parent ]

Re: try talking to each other in person (none / 0) (#286)
by danceswithcrows on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 12:18:04 AM EST

So you have a lot of people loudly proclaiming personal enlightenment through Jesus or Allah who would be better off smoking a faty with some of their best friends.

A long time ago, in the Year of the Witchita Crow when I lived in Sarlaac House, we managed to combine religion and drugs. Moses and I were in the kitchen with a couple of girls, and we'd just smoked a couple of bongloads. Moses had made spaghetti sauce earlier and some of it was still in the pan on the stove.

The munchies were starting to hit, so I got a bit of French bread, then Moses took it from me and dipped it in the sauce before giving it back. "This is my body and blood, broken for you," he whispered as I bit into the bread. The sauce was filled with peppers, and it seemed to writhe around the bread as I swallowed. All I could think of to say was, "Are you authorized to do that?" "As authorized as anyone else," he said.

Since then, I've always looked on the "normal" way of doing that particular ritual as sterile and unsatisfying. I think that churches should spike the materials they use in that ritual with psychoactive chemicals once a year, randomly, and see how their donations collected/membership stats fare--done correctly, it'd really help them out!

Matt G (aka Dances With Crows) There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see
[ Parent ]

Finding Religion (4.00 / 1) (#151)
by fatbobsmith on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:19:51 PM EST

I found religion through LSA. However, I think the reason christians gets such a bashing is because of the "you're going to hell" factor. Trippers aren't going to tell you you're a bad person for not tripping. However, there's a fair to middling chance that your average christian will look down on you (whether openly or in their minds) because you're not part of their little club. In fact, even if you are a christian, there's a 100% chance that another christian church somewhere in your town thinks you're going to hell. Seems backwards and stupid to me.

Commence flaming.

Special Note to Christians: If the horrible global stereotype above doesn't fit your particular situation, please disregard it.



[ Parent ]
It's true. (none / 0) (#194)
by xriso on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:57:29 PM EST

The best explanation I've found is that Christians tend to be humans.

I've not really looked for the Biblical perspective on mind-altering chemical experiences, although it does talk a lot about alchohol. I'm not sure, but I think you'd find that it's OK, as long as you don't let it dominate your life or screw you up permanently, just like everything else in God's creation.

Then again, I've never done any mind-altering drugs, save caffeine (which I rarely use these days).
--
*** Quits: xriso:#kuro5hin (Forever)
[ Parent ]

Whoever said that? (3.33 / 3) (#153)
by JetJaguar on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:22:10 PM EST

I consider anyone that waxes poetic about any sort of altered state of consciousness (be it the result of drugs, religion, or meditation) to be 'backward' and 'stupid.' Those experiences can be a great ride, but if you read anything more into them than that or make them a "life changing" experience, you're an idiot. From my personal experience, such things are not as remotely enlightening as they might at first appear. The "insights" gained are more often then not, completely nonsensical and totally unfounded.

The greatest epiphanies I've ever had were when I was stone cold sober and living life to it's fullest. Mind altering drugs are no match for living in and learning to understand the real world and all it's beautiful complexities.

On the other hand, I'm all for stupid people removing themselves from the gene pool, so I salute those of you that find enjoyment screwing with your own head. It also gives me lots of fodder to screw with your head even further (which can be immensely entertaining), so go for it!

[ Parent ]

Fodder (none / 0) (#159)
by sydb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:35:16 PM EST

It also gives me lots of fodder to screw with your head even further (which can be immensely entertaining), so go for it!

In my own experience, people who try and 'screw with your mind' while you're on psychedelics are (a) stupid (b) unsuccessful and (c) viewed with some scorn (and sometimes simply humoured) by the object of their naive behaviour.
--

Making Linux GPL'd was definitely the best thing I ever did - Linus Torvalds
[ Parent ]

Indeed (none / 0) (#163)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:44:02 PM EST

It's about the only thing on LSD that's acually tedious and boring.

A friend of mine once said something like "No, that didn't scare me at all. Just now when X turned off the lights and the walls collapsed around me, that was frightening but your monkey mask and lies about the cops being here is just dull"

        Pre............
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
religious people "backward" (5.00 / 1) (#173)
by Shpongle Spore on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:09:19 PM EST

Personally I have no problem with genuine religious feeling--it seems to do at least some good for a lot of people, and a lot of good for a few people.

I do have a problem with bullshit crusades and jihads, raving lunatics on street corners telling me I'm going to hell, polite well-dressed young men doing the same at my front door, and above all else, people who insist that I must obey the fine print in their favorite book because their imaginary friend will punish them in the afterlife if they don't suck every last ounce of joy from this one.
__
I wish I was in Austin, at the Chili Parlor bar,
drinking 'Mad Dog' margaritas and not caring where you are
[ Parent ]

amen to that! (none / 0) (#232)
by majik on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:54:21 PM EST

I've got no problem with anyone elses show... as long as they leave mine alone =)
Funky fried chickens - they're what's for dinner
[ Parent ]
Shizophrenia (4.50 / 2) (#302)
by RandomPeon on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 03:40:49 AM EST

People who really hear a voice in their head without using drugs are most likely schizophrenic. (Many of the people are probably lying). Many of them believe that this is the voice of God. Until the 20th century most schizophrenics were deemed to be possessed. The lucky ones became saints, prophets, or oracles.

As other posters have pointed out the problem is these schizophrenics don't know that they have a mental illness. Someone using psychoactive substances is quite aware that his/her "altered conciousness" has a natural cause.

[ Parent ]
It follows (3.00 / 10) (#112)
by NoNeckJoe on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:16:15 PM EST

If you support drugs, you support terrorism.
K5 supports drugs.
K5 supports terrorism.

It must be true.  I saw it on T.V.

Jack booted thugs should be knocking on your door at any time now, Rusty.

dumbass (2.00 / 4) (#347)
by rabbits77 on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 12:50:00 PM EST

Have you ever heard of the shining path? FARC? Both are south american groups associated with terrorist activities and both get a good deal of their income from drug manufactire and smuggling. Oh, you thought those ads had to do with american street dealers, like the ones you buy your dope from in the 7-11 parking lot? typical small minded american arrogance. Just go back to taking drugs you ignorant shit.

[ Parent ]
SEX (3.75 / 4) (#113)
by fhotg on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:16:23 PM EST

is what you want to do while tripping. With a partner who has taken a ticket too.

The best experience in my life, honestly.

For the multitoxicologists: Combine E and acid that they peak at the same time. It's a good trip guarantee.

the best experience... (none / 0) (#116)
by squinky on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:21:01 PM EST

Have you tried nitrous oxide while on acid?

The world crytalizes for a minute of two... and you exist in the icy beauty of frozen time.

Of course, you'll need some help loading the balloon, 'cause that's really complicated.

Though sex is pretty good too-- like sex, only more so.


[ Parent ]

Nitrous (none / 0) (#119)
by trener on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:28:06 PM EST

I've only done nitrous once, and that was while peaking on E.

Fucking incredible. We were in a car outside a party, listening to some crazy IDM (Plaid, I think.. actually, I think the track was called 'Squance'), and let me tell you, I went deeper into the music than I've ever gone in my life. I've never heard or experienced anything quite as beautiful as that. Unbelievable experience.

Hehe, that said, nitrous pokes some SERIOUS holes in your brain, so I don't mess with it too much.

[ Parent ]
cheap trick (5.00 / 1) (#443)
by YelM3 on Wed Nov 27, 2002 at 03:39:12 AM EST

In my opinion, nitrous is a cheap trick. After all, it is just oxygen deprivation. Sure, it feels amazingly weird and cool (especially while on E - I agree) but in the end it is just what I would imagine getting hit in the skull with a baseball bat is probably like.

My favorite part was the sound. It went something like this: inhale, inhale, inhale, hold breath. Time around you slowly starts to blur, slowing down. Vision subsystems fail. Flicker off. Darkness. Time is frozen. The sounds of the last second in reality hang in the emptiness, and echo, echo, echo, echo. The pitch of my companion's voice at that moment is a high-pitched oscillation rolling over and over at the corner of my (seemingly hollow) mind. What was, 5 seconds ago, the buzz of a fan, is now a completely monotone humming, echoing off into the vast emptiness of the inside of my skull.

Then everything fades back in and you realize you haven't been breathing for 20 seconds. Not worth it.

[ Parent ]

Of course (none / 0) (#158)
by kcidx on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:31:13 PM EST

Candy Flipping (Acid+E) and then doing Nitrous is also extremely gratifying.

As is an 1/8 of shrooms and a pill of E. E is an MAO inhibitor, which alledgedly causes the small amount of 5MAO in mushrooms to build up and stay in your brain longer than they normally do. And if you've ever done 5MAO on it's own...you know that it is well worth the effort to get it. ;P

[ Parent ]

careful here (4.00 / 1) (#366)
by fhotg on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 06:57:44 PM EST

E is not a MAO inhibitor. MAOis have no real psychoactive effect alone, but can dramatically increase the effect of psychoactive substances. They do _not_ mix with E or other amphetamin-like stuff! It's dangerous ! They can be extracted from some exotic plants or stuff you buy in the pharmacy.

5MAO ?? You mean either 5MEO-DMT which is very interesting and can be extracted from a very common reed grass or 5MEO DIPT, whatever that is.

Mix DMT with MAOis and get Ayahuasca. Consult Shulgin, McKenna and Erowid

[ Parent ]

Sometimes (none / 0) (#123)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:38:46 PM EST

Other times you hate being touched and get distracted really really easily and laugh a lot.

Like just about anything on LSD, it all depends how you feel.

        Pre..............
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My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
that's right (none / 0) (#136)
by fhotg on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:56:22 PM EST

however, you can steer your experience a great deal. So if you program yourself in advance and prepare a bit, it's likely to work out.

Of course, if you have to go buy rubbers, you'll get totally distracted and end up spending hours reading the extremely funny labels on all these things in a pharmacy.

[ Parent ]

Other times (3.00 / 1) (#181)
by broken77 on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:34:48 PM EST

Your partner's head turns into a goat right in the middle of it. Yes, really.

I'm starting to doubt all this happy propaganda about Islam being a religion of peace. Heck, it's just as bad as Christianity. -- Dphitz
[ Parent ]

Heh (none / 0) (#186)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:46:12 PM EST

I did find it amusing when one girls head turned, as I watched, into one of those blank theatrical masks one evening when we were kissing. That was just on some crazy stuff that I was sold as hashish and took a bite of. Not entirely convinced that's what it was though.

        Pre.........
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My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
SEX (bad thing while on acid) (1.00 / 1) (#336)
by dazol on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 10:54:15 AM EST

I gotta disagree in a huge way with you on this one.  One of my almost worst experiences was while having sex on acid.  We're talking 4 ft. long rubbery nipples and a huge open maw with thousands of thick tentacles reaching out to grab you.   Oh yeah, also forgot to mention:  watcher her face become every cartoon character you can think of was not fun.  Even though the Jessica Rabbit part wasn't bad, goblins from the cartoon movie "The Hobbit" was.   And telling her "man, your ugly" in the midst of this  (bad part about thinking outloud.....) almost ruined it in an entirely different way......

[ Parent ]
ok guys (none / 0) (#369)
by fhotg on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:08:03 PM EST

admittedly I'm lacking experience here big time.

I find it pretty hard to find girls to sleep with (the sentence could end here but doesn't), which are comfy enough with the psychedelic realms.

There was actually just one, and she mostly turned into a giant vagina or other pleasant appearances, matching my own self-perception. That's all very tactile experiences, no big optical distortions involved.

[ Parent ]

Shrooms (3.50 / 2) (#115)
by Yellowbeard on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:18:03 PM EST

I tried them in Amsterdam. They were great. For the author: if you have tried shrooms as well, can you compare the two experiences? Acid has never held much interest for me, as, in the words of my father, "I don't like the idea of going on a trip that I can't come back from until it decides to be over." However, your article has peaked my interest. If I can get basically the same experience from shrooms (one that I liked and which seems a bit similar from reading your description, then I'll just stick with them. If I can't maybe I should reconsider.

"Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt." - Deniro in Ronin


Apples and Apples. (5.00 / 1) (#127)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:46:31 PM EST

There are people who will only do Shrooms becasue they are "more natural", by which I assume they mean shrooms are a bizarre and random mix of chemicals whereas LSD is "Unnatural", by which they mean it's as pure a single chemical as you're ever likely to get.

I think you can tell which side of that argument I favour.

LSD trip will, in general, last a couple of hours longer but obviously this depends a lot on dose.

Other than that, the differences are - in my experiance - much the same as the difference between Gin and Tequila. If you think Gin will make you weepy, it will. If you think Tequila will make you riotously energentic, it will. Even though in that case you have exactly the same chemical, alcohol, doing the magic.

With shrooms/LSD the effect will be more obvious still of course becasue tripping makes you so massively suggestable.

So whatever you'll told the difference will be before your try your trips, that's pretty much what you'll get.

I should tell you now to try and believe those who say LSD has no hangover more than those who say it has a massive one. It'll be good for you in the long run. I believed the hangover people, but ti's not nearly as bad as booze hangovers.

        Pre.......
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My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
Different chemicals (none / 0) (#140)
by Irobot on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:59:52 PM EST

Not to be purposely contrarian, but mushrooms contain psylocibin (sp?). LSD is exactly what the initials say. Generally speaking - yes, it's a very similar effect. However, I'd take mushrooms again, whereas I don't think I'll ever take acid again. I'm just no longer willing to endure the physical effects, which may or may not be due to the different chemicals or the quality of the particular does I've taken.

Irobot

"Life is so unlike theory." -- Anthony Trollope
Irobot

The one important thing I have learned over the years is the difference between taking one's work seriously and taking one's self seriously. The first is imperative and the second is disastrous. -- Margot Fonteyn
[ Parent ]

Of course. (none / 0) (#145)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:05:30 PM EST

But I think that the different chemicals have a very similar effect on the brain. One of the most obvious being that both make you extremely suggestable.

As I said, this is my experience, but I think that outweighs whatever differences there are utterly. Placebo out of control is all I see when people describe differences is the effects to me.

But then maybe I just think that becasue I expect to. Heh.

       Pre.........
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My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
LSD hangover (4.00 / 1) (#169)
by Meatbomb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:02:34 PM EST

In my experience a lot to do with the massive amounts of beer and smokes and dubies you are able to consume while on LSD. These things don't seem to add much to the LSD effect, nevertheless speaking personally if they are present they will tend to be consumed in mass quantities.

The LSD also seems to lock the brain back into normal mode slightly too clear and clean - the process of making the world somewhat blurred and fuzzy like normal takes as much as two or three days (for me).

_______________

Good News for Liberal Democracy!

[ Parent ]
Some experiences (5.00 / 1) (#131)
by Irobot on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:51:58 PM EST

Note that these are my personal experiences. Although all psychedelic experiences are difficult to relate, I'll give it a go:

Mushrooms - an "organic" feeling to the trip. Very curvy, swirly visual effects. Not as much of a mental/emotional aspect; lots of giggling. Some physical discomfort, notably an upset stomach. Lasts 3-4 hours.

LSD - an "artificial" feeling. Sharper, sometimes even "jagged", geometric visuals. Large mental/emotional effect, sometimes good, sometimes bad. (I've never heard anyone claim they "saw God" on mushrooms; I've also never heard anyone say they had a bad trip on 'shrooms.) Also some physical discomfort; almost every time, it made me feel itchy. Perhaps due to the quality of the acid? Lasts 7-8 hours.

Mescaline - somewhere between the two. I've only done it once, so I can't say much more; I don't even remember how long it lasted (best guess - 6 hours).

Ecstasy - I include this even though it's an amphetamine, not a psychedelic, because it has some psychedelic properties; besides, "candy-flipping" (taking X and LSD together) was a good experience. Large emotional (always positive, in my experience) impact. Also has a large physical impact. Lasts 4-6 hours.

Of course, this list doesn't include peyote, psilocibin, DMT, nutmeg, banana peels (kidding) or others that I have not personally used. Your mileage may vary...

Irobot

"Life is so unlike theory." -- Anthony Trollope
Irobot

The one important thing I have learned over the years is the difference between taking one's work seriously and taking one's self seriously. The first is imperative and the second is disastrous. -- Margot Fonteyn
[ Parent ]

2nd opinion (none / 0) (#168)
by shivers on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:01:51 PM EST


Mushrooms: I found more of an emotional/feely experience; but less visuals.  Also doesn't last as long and they dont taste too good.

Mescaline: wouldn't know

Ecstacy:  Done it once or twice, not my sort of drug.  Bit scary 'coming up' and quite weird.   Very very strong emotionally, the drug still needs a bit of work to make it good but not as much as acid.

[ Parent ]

Agreed, with one caveat. (none / 0) (#278)
by braeburn on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 11:06:23 PM EST

Unfortunately, I've never had the chance to take LSD, but I can certainly vouch to a sort of "organic" slant to mushroom trips. As to bad trips, while they seem to be less common than on LSD, they're certainly possible (I can personally vouch for that). However, I should say that I was extremely stupid when I initiated my one bad mushroom trip: emotionally troubled, a stomach full of greasy food, and I took a bit of peganum harmala to increase the effects; had I done more research I would have learned that there are some foods you should never, ever combine with harmala. The end result wasn't pretty, and I haven't done mushrooms since, although I would again, if the circumstances were right.

As for LSD, I'm a little apprehensive about trying it; someone once described it to me as "the You show, starring Your Brain, on stage and bathed in bright spotlights, for 8 hours".

[ Parent ]

re: Shrooms (4.50 / 2) (#142)
by tuj on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:01:59 PM EST

For the author: if you have tried shrooms as well, can you compare the two experiences?

I've done both to quite an extent. I did acid around 130 times, ranging from 80 to 300 micrograms (based on the effects, and reports from others with accurate dosages; ie Leary). I've also explored psilocybin via psilocybe cubensis, which is the (psychoactive) mushroom most commonly available in North America. While mushrooms can vary quite a bit in potency, my impressions were that the ones I obtained average to above average in potency. Once, I ingested 16 dried grams (or roughly 3 times what is considered a "very strong" dose).

I think the easist way to explain the differences might be this: psilocybin is like being beaten with a tree-branch, while acid is like being attacked by a laser-wielding robot...

In all seriousness, I think psilocybin tends to create an introspective experience that is more judgemental. The manifestations of audio (ie hearing 'red') are similar to lsd, however, spacial localization, while enhanced, is not as great. I think psilocybin can cause more thought-clouding and can sometimes evoke strange sort of primal energies. The first time I crossed the 6gm barrier, I wanted to throw my body into things (walls, etc) like a pinball. Other times I've been totally immobile, immersed in listening.

The durations of the experiences were comparable. Lsd usually peaks around 3.5 to 4 hrs, and all sensory effects are totally gone by about 8 hrs. There is then a period that I find generally lasts another 8 to 12 hours in which your mind feels... "clean." Hard to explain, but its almost a zen-like clarity to your consciouness. There is a similar effect with psilocybin, but not as prononced. I find that psilocybin tends to accelerate in its effects very quickly (expotentially) while acid has a more linear build to peaking.

As always, and perhaps I didn't emphasize this enough in the story, but please be careful. Do your research, and know your drugs if you choose to do them. Acid is usually quite safe, due to the fact that the amount ingested is so small, that any adulterants aren't likely to be in high enough concentrations to hurt you. Eg: if someone was to sell methyl alcohol soaked paper as acid, one or two blotters won't contain enough to hurt you (and would probably evaporate anyway). Mushrooms are more dangerous, especially when you consider that there are at least 3 poisionous mushrooms that look macroscopically similar to the active ones. Know the risks, stay safe.




[ Parent ]
shorroms vs. acid (none / 0) (#192)
by Shpongle Spore on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:55:17 PM EST

I think the easiest way to explain the differences might be this: psilocybin is like being beaten with a tree-branch, while acid is like being attacked by a laser-wielding robot...

Poetic, accurate, and hilarious--I'm committing it to memory. Not too informative, though.

I could write a whole lot on the topic, but I'll try to keep it brief. Apparently many people think acid and shrooms are very similar, but I personally find the differences to be very large.

Acid is scarier, more intense, and more abstractly intellectual. Things feel terribly important on acid. It usally takes 12 hours for my acid trips to to taper off enough that I can sleep. Once I had a trip last over 16 hours. Shrooms are usually gone in 4-6 hours for me. Acid makes me very hyper and extraverted, compared to laid-back and even drowsy with shrooms. Shrooms often give me nausea, but acid makes me achy, which I mind a lot less. Tripping has a much bigger impact on my than shrooms, and I always have a noticeably different perspective on things for about 2 weeks after than trip--my favorite part actually.

Of course your mileage may vary--acid does practically nothing to my wife.
__
I wish I was in Austin, at the Chili Parlor bar,
drinking 'Mad Dog' margaritas and not caring where you are
[ Parent ]

Comment and a question (3.66 / 3) (#126)
by Rasman on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:46:26 PM EST

After reading this article and posts, I have both a comment and a question.

The "peak experiences" link was interesting. What this Maslow fellow calls a "plateau experience" sounds an awful lot like what Buddhists call nirvana.

Call me a perv, but I'm curious to know if any of you LSD users have had sexual encounters while on your "trips" or if your fingertip or the wall is just too interesting to look at to think such carnal thoughts. Did LSD improve or diminish from the experience?

---
Brave. Daring. Fearless. Clippy - The Clothes Pin Stuntman
sexual stuff (4.50 / 2) (#133)
by Goatmaster on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:53:13 PM EST

In my experience, albiet it is probably a bit limited with LSD compared to others, the sexual drive is completely absent. That part of the mind was just not present. Since the experience tends to be emotionally introspective, I don't think it's exactly tuned to sexual encounters. It's not a physical, euphoric 'high' that you might get from something like marijuana or something else, but of course it can be extremely different from person to person. Reading the accounts on Erowid (the author has linked to a few) can give some perspective hopefully.


... and so the Goatmaster has spoken
[ Parent ]
Can go either way (3.66 / 3) (#141)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:01:14 PM EST

As always with LSD, so much depends on mood and environment and the old set and setting thing. Sometimes it works well, sometimes the mere idea of being touched is revolting. I've usually found the latter, but then there's usually nobody around I particually want to screw anyway.

When it works well, it's a weird experience. Just a psychedelic snog and you lose track of where your tounge starts and your partners begins, can feel much more like you're really "becoming one" in some sense.

       Pre................
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My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
I did (4.66 / 3) (#157)
by kcidx on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:28:04 PM EST

I had sex on LSD once.

All I can really say was that it was totally fucked. We started before the LSD really kicked in...and when it got going...I just had to stop.

It was just too intense. Not in a sexual way either. It was just kinda a feeling of "Damn...I better stop or I might forget which one of these two bodies is mine...or where I end and she begins...or something..." it was *FUCKED*.

That's really all I can say about that. But if you ever want a feeling of absolute closeness with someone...that is a way to get it. It just might suprise you that even with people you totally love...there is such thing as *TOO* close.

[ Parent ]

yes yes, but (3.50 / 2) (#129)
by Goatmaster on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:49:37 PM EST

LSD is a useful, but potentially harmful drug. Not that the drug physically itself is dangerous, but it is the sensory effects and mood that can make it rather traumatic for those who are not prepared for it. Always, always have a non-tripping buddy around to keep things from getting out of hand. Even the most experienced folks do this.

My personal experiences with it have been life-changing and generally positive. It's too bad it's been designated as a non-useful drug. Lots of info at Erowid.


... and so the Goatmaster has spoken
I'm not anti-drugs...this is just a summary of... (3.66 / 6) (#139)
by smkndrkn on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 02:59:02 PM EST

...my experience with LSD. The first time I took LSD I had about 2.5 hits of some blotter called blue sunshine. The story of the time was that it came from San Diego. Anyway it was one of the most unbelievable times in my life. For somewhere close to 11 hours me and two friends roamed the wooded areas near our homes and visited the beach for some swimming under the cloudless sky. Watching the starts move around a bit like a big soup was especially great. We met some other kids from a nearby state who had come to the beach to do some illegal drinking and swimming. They were great as well. Great time all around and that is a VERY brief summary of my trip. The 2nd time I did acid was also my last. That was because it was horrible. Not only did I not have a good time it was just freaky. I won't go into the details but at certain points along the way I thought I was turning into a statue in my chair, felt my heart pumping very hard in my chest, was pushed from behind by someone who was with us that was not tripping and had no idea what that would do to me, had a friend fall on the ground and cut his arm badly. Not in that order but needless to say it was bad. I still do drugs occasionally ( mostly pot ) and I'm all for everyone doing their experimentation but I'd say to be careful of some of the stronger drugs and where you get them. My 2nd trip was off some white blotter of an unknown source and I don't know if it was just bad acid or my mind that turned the trip into hell. Just thought I'd share. Gary

I find this corpse guilty of carrying a concealed weapon and I fine it $40. -- Judge Roy Bean, finding a pistol and $40 on a man he'd just shot.
Interesting (5.00 / 1) (#343)
by Mashx on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 12:32:22 PM EST

I was turning into a statue in my chair
I had a very similar experience.

It was towards dawn, after having done a couple of grams of crystal speed, and a couple of Rockets.  The whole week had been a mixture of no sleep, no food, and lots of drugs, and this was the Friday night. Earlier in the night we had been listening to some hard acid techno, including a track called 'Cortex Killer' that had sent us all in different directions, just as the others in the flat returned.  I was so deep into this trip that I couldn't smoke any weed, which meant I went further, as Cannabis has always helped me 'level' the trip out.  One of the others had gone and hid under the stairs later on as well, as he was adamant that we were conspiring to draw on his face.

I was sitting in hall with a couple of my fellow trippers, and a bloke who hadn't taken anything but was well versed in Acid, and was enjoying the 'fallout' as he put it afterwards.  I could see an Amphitheatre, with a crowd amongst whom my friends were sitting.  The sky was brilliant blue, but the dark clouds started swarming overhead, and as they put the crowd into shadow, so these people would turn into statues.  I saw virtually all the crowd turned into statues.  I was scared, I didn't want to be a statue.

Suddenly, the bloke that was along for the fallout knocked me on the shoulder and asked me if I had ever been to Glastonbury.  The immediate change in thought was of all those nutters jumping up and down in muddy fields, and the clouds vanished, the statues turned into jumping nutters, and I had the biggest grin on my face.

He told me the next day that he saw my face go ashen, and wanted to give me a happy thought. With everything else that had happened that night (my delusions of being in a crack house in Brixton etc), it was a heavy trip, but whereas the immediate feelings were terrible, the experience of the low and the return to normality was such a high afterwards, that rather than see it as a bad trip, I thought of it such that I was glad that I had gone through it, but certainly saw the down as necessary for the up afterwards.

I have done acid on many occassions since in the last ten years as well, and have had some wonderful experiences. I'm certainly not knocking you, please don't take it that way, but notice how we took a very similar experience and 'experienced' it differently.
Woodside!
[ Parent ]

Sophomoric look at LSD (4.69 / 13) (#144)
by nutate on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:04:52 PM EST

LSD remains such a powerful cultural force, bolstered by its illegality, bizarre history, reputation with great psych-rock to electronica, cool books, etc. And now this article... (Imagine invisible sarcasm tags around that last sentence fragment.)

Read 'The Crying of Lot 49', go camping for a couple nights, do yoga, learn Scheme, sculpt, write, whatever. Do something. The only reason I'm not mentioning drugs here is that the collective kuro5hin reading audience has an average age that definitely isn't through with puberty yet. It is better that you spend that time doing something you can get better at. Believe me. Even the seemingly hard to learn drug related skills(?) like joint rolling or driving high or tripping will still be easier to pick up than say guitar or higher math when you're older.

It's just that in my experience, you can only milk so much so-called enlightenment out of LSD. And once you start trying to get more through higher doses or prolonged dosings, the farther you're gonna get from what might possibly matter in this world. And if somehow you feel ultrafunctional on LSD, unless you have a trust fund and an in house lab, you probably won't be able to keep up the illusion.

In the end, you'll just ended up stuck in reality like everybody else. Whether or not you've actually felt US == THEM or actually seen fractal patterns in the sky or other bits of seemingly heightened awareness you're going to spend the majority of your life (if you choose to live it) in reality. Make something new.

Comments and criticisms are appreciated. There are holes in my argument, but I stick by it.

reading audience average age (4.33 / 3) (#149)
by squinky on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:14:11 PM EST

I didn't think of that.

Kids should probably not do drugs-- gotta agree. There's plenty of time for drugs later...

I didn't do drugs until I was 21-- then only for a couple of years. (and only a few times a year).

I didn't mean to romanticize anything. There are definitely better things to do with your life. And drug use certainly shouldn't be a priority of a teenager.

Are you sure about the average age?


[ Parent ]

Age (4.33 / 3) (#152)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:21:50 PM EST

Yeah. If you're gonna screw around with chemicals that effect your brain it has to be wise to wait until at least it's finished growing before you do so. It'll vary, but if you're under sixteen it's definately a bad idea. Probably not too smart under eighteen. I was nineteen if I remember right.

The average readers age isn't all that important really, we do have minors here and it's good that we have a thread pointing out that there are more important things to ensure you can do before you start blasting away the brain cells. My joint rolling skills are better than my guitar chords, and I wish it was the other way around really.

        Pre..........
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My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
Drugs are for Kids (3.66 / 3) (#165)
by Meatbomb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:49:32 PM EST

This isn't a troll. I am glad I did drugs, my feelings on LSD similar to writer of the main article. There is no way I could take the sort of abuse now that I did when I was a kid, and I for one strongly recommend LSD and other halucinogens to any intelligent and responsible young people interested in finding out more about themselves and the world. Ever notice it is the older folks who usually die of drug use? Do it when you are young and still immortal, then STOP or at least calm way down as you get old and frail.
Kids: be careful in terms of location: be somewhere cool, where you can feel very safe and comfy. Have a range of music available, some good videos (animation is nice), have a light meal beforehand. Beer is nice, but go easy on it or you'll bankrupt yourself - you can drink basically an infinite number of beers with very minimal drunkenness when on LSD. A remote location where you can walk around outside without lots of company is a plus.

_______________

Good News for Liberal Democracy!

[ Parent ]
Hummmm (none / 0) (#166)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:54:48 PM EST

Depends what you mean by Kids. I'm pretty sure you're not talking about five year olds here, and I think saying "Just do it kids" without saying what you mean by kids is fairly uninfromative if not irreponsible.

Like I said, I'd say around eighteen is fine, and I'm extremely glad that's around when I started. I'm nearly thirty now and eighteen year olds are kids to me. Sounds like you're even older.

        Pre..........
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My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
OK, I mean biggish kids (none / 0) (#172)
by Meatbomb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:07:09 PM EST

I think I started with LSD when I was 16, but I was a big and mature 16.

No regrets myself. I can't imagine people reading kuro5hin who wouldn't be mature enough, but I could be wrong.

Of course the safest thing from a legal liability standpoint is "JUST SAY NO"...

_______________

Good News for Liberal Democracy!

[ Parent ]
eh? (none / 0) (#338)
by gauze on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 11:31:11 AM EST

Older folks? You consider 27 older folks, I guess, which is the average age of the famous rockstars who died of drugs and booze.

I must be positively ancient then!
There's nothing wrong with a PC that a little UNIX won't cure.
[ Parent ]

age (none / 0) (#362)
by jafac on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 06:31:34 PM EST

Oh, definately!

Do it while you're young.

Nowadays, when I smoke a joint, I just get the munchies and fall asleep, and have sore eyes the next day.  It was so much more fun when I was in my 20's.  Could be why I don't do it anymore.

Youth is definately wasted on the young.

[ Parent ]

average age (3.00 / 1) (#155)
by nutate on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:23:59 PM EST

Absolutely not sure about the average age. But then again, the author of this article struck me as a teenager. I could be completely wrong at judging ages, especially aggregate ages.

[ Parent ]

Agreed (3.66 / 3) (#154)
by sydb on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:23:18 PM EST

A friend of my cat's mother had a few trips when he was meant to be studying, and he thinks he was just too immature to appreciate what was going properly.

Our perceptions guide our actions (and vice versa in a feedback mechanism). Psychedelics bring about radical changes in the way we perceive the world. When we are young we are going through the process of building a usable framework for our life ahead. Interfering with this process can cause unnecessary failure and pain.

When we are older, however, and our framework is deeply ingrained and chugging along smoothly, psychedelics are exactly what we need to free us from that framework in a controlled fashion. There is a tendency to feel we 'know it all' as we mature. Psychedelics remind us this is not the case, and open up new possibilities for creativity.

I think.
--

Making Linux GPL'd was definitely the best thing I ever did - Linus Torvalds
[ Parent ]

great list (3.00 / 2) (#306)
by kubalaa on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 05:46:19 AM EST

I think it's fantastic that you put Scheme next to yoga and sculpting.

[ Parent ]
How to know if it's real before you take it ? (3.00 / 2) (#164)
by epipsychidion on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:47:51 PM EST

It took me 2 or 3 tries to actually get real acid.

This seems a major problem to me, are there any solutions ? Or do you just have to take what you can find, then try to stick with the ones that are real ?

acid is cheap (none / 0) (#167)
by shivers on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 03:56:52 PM EST

The thing with acid is that its soo cheap it's rarely cut with anything, and if it's crap you've only lost a coupla bucks

[ Parent ]
cheap?? ha! (none / 0) (#441)
by jizzled on Fri Oct 04, 2002 at 01:27:02 AM EST

Where im from i cant even get acid...its pathetic i have to drive 12 hours just to get some good stuff and then its not even that good and i just lost a lot of money cuz its soo expensive. I dont know where you get yours but i wanna know how much you're spending

[ Parent ]
paper and blacklights... (none / 0) (#190)
by dregvant on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:54:55 PM EST

you're basically either going to get nothing on your paper, not much, or something worthwhile.

lsd glows under a blacklight, so shove your stuff under a blacklight and see what happens.  if you happen to have one around when you're buying your stuff, you can use it to choose the better pieces...

if you're buying a form other than blotter, you're going to want to trust your source.

[ Parent ]

Well.. (4.50 / 4) (#174)
by mindstrm on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:10:56 PM EST

I have to say that your description of LSD stripping away your masks is fairly accurate.

It does give you a different perspective about what constitutes you, consciousness, etc.

I know a number of people who messed themselves up good doing way too much lsd. Over and over again. Looking for the answer.

I agree it's not as bad as it's made out to be.. it's a wonderful drug in a way. However..
Drug abuse is drug abuse.  Some people can't handle it. They do it too much, it takes over their life.

LSD is not primarily a hallucinogenic drug, it's a psychedelic.

Saying "on some surfaces you can see twisting and such" is an understatement. You can see crazy shit on a high dose of lsd.. but it's almost always a twisting or morph of what is really there... not pink elephants, as you say.
That doesn't mean there are no outright hallucinations; there can be. But you will know them for what they are. This is in striking contrast to some real hallucinogens where you will see and hear people, talk to them, and see things that are not there, and NOT KNOW that it is the drug.

Great, something I love to talk about (4.00 / 4) (#175)
by a3d0a3m on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:13:26 PM EST

What a nice thing, to see a FP story on LSD. Unfortunately you forgot to mention HPPD. HPPD is hallucinogen persisting perception disorder. It is a recognized psychological disorder, featured in such books as the DSM-IV. Check out this site for information about HPPD. It is possible to get HPPD or worse from one hit of acid. Who doesn't have a "strong mind" as you worded it? Can you come up with a nice profile for the ideal user of LSD?
I, personally, have ingested LSD, mushrooms, ecstasy, dxm, pot, salvia, ketamine, nitrous oxide, amyl nitrate, opiates, amphetamines, alcohol, benzos, cocaine, and countless others that don't readily come to mind (I know this isn't a drug abuse pissing contest, but I felt it was necessary to give myself some credit, as someone with alot of first-hand experience with most popular drugs). I found that when I took acid I certianly felt enlightened for a few weeks following, but, in my opinion, acid is not a) a cure for depression or b) an opening in the doors of perception.
I could, without any reservations, lump all of those substances into "things that get you high and if you use them alot they will make you depressed/anxious/etc". Sure some of my higher dose acid and ketamine trips felt 'enlightening', but they also took a toll on my psyche. As for now, I stick to legal drugs, alcohol and tobacco, because they serve the same purpose as any of the other drugs but have the added benefit of not being illegal as well as less taxing on the psyche i.e. I can drink 6 beers in a night and get 8 hours of sleep and feel pretty good, but if I take a tab of acid I will be up for 12 hours, need to sleep about 12 after it's over and feel out of it for a few days-- the same goes for mushrooms, ketamine, dxm, etc. In my opinion, the only drug I see being legalized in my lifetime in the good ol' USA is marijuana.

adam

salvia (none / 0) (#223)
by majik on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:39:27 PM EST

salvia was on your list and is still as far as I know, not illegal =)

remember kids, once you get the message, hang up the phone.
Funky fried chickens - they're what's for dinner
[ Parent ]

Depends where you live. (none / 0) (#231)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:51:05 PM EST

Australia has criminalized the drug, I'm sure many other countries will follow suit eventually.

       Pre.........
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
yikes (none / 0) (#237)
by majik on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:09:37 PM EST

I'm sorry to hear that... it was a great teacher for myself and others. though in the mind altering scheme of things, i'm not surprised its happened there. relative to other substances, it should have been illegal long ago.
Funky fried chickens - they're what's for dinner
[ Parent ]
Strong LSD can be ... interesting. User Beware (4.90 / 21) (#180)
by PureFiction on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:32:01 PM EST

This is another tale of caution for those who like to experiment with their neurochemistry.

One of the most mysterious drugs known to man comes from the byproducts of rotting rye, derived from the Ergot Alkaloids and packing a potency unmatched by any other psychotropic substance. Yes, this is LSD we are talking about here. A mere score of micrograms (yes, micro, not milli like every other drug is dosed) has profound effects on the function of the grey jelly tucked inside your cranium.

There was one LSD incident, which due to a few factors, ended up being the strangest experience of my life. I made a few dumb mistakes that evening, the first of which was taking a large amount of SSRI's the day previous. Depression runs in my family, so we had plenty of Prozac and Zoloft in the medicine cabinet which I decided to experiment with. The result was odd and not pleasant, however, I did not think that a 15x over dosage of these two SSRI's would have any effect on my LSD trip the next day. I was wrong. I'll spare the technical details but basically LSD is a seratonin antagonist, raising levels of the neurotransmitter in the brain which is generally beleived to be the source of LSD's effect. SSRI's also do this, by keeping seratonin around to interact with nerve cells longer than normal. This proved to be a powerfull potentiator of the LSD itself.

The second mistake was taking a batch that I had not tried before at a smaller dose, and which no one else had tried either. (Actually, someone mentioned at school that day that the stuff I was going to get was too strong, don't mess with it. "Troy was talking to an invisible dog all evening!")

I found out after this incident that quite a few other people wigged out on this stuff, leading to the bust of a dozen kids at school about a week later. It turns out the guy miscalibrated the dilution by one order of magnitude. Oops.

At any rate, I went out and took a dose and waiting for the fun to start. The onset was quite delayed, and after 1.5 hours without any noticable effect I was going to consider it bunk. About the time I was certain it was bad my friends noticed my pupils were fully dilated, a sure sign that it was kicking in, even if I could'nt tell.

It started getting late, and I had to be home that evening (Friday) before my parents got upset. The drive home was when I noticed the onset coming pretty strong. Cars we passed (Friend was driving) appeared to have faces, with their headlight eyes and hood smiles looking at me as they passed. Visual effects were starting as well, lights leaving a faint trail as we continued down the road.

15 minutes later I am at home, and feeling quite giddy. My mothers asks to see my eyes, and comments on how large my pupils are. I am able to brush this off without incident. It was nighttime after all. I go directly into the kitchen after passing the Mother Test and realize I am in for more than I bargained for. I reached for a blue crystal cup to get some water. The motion of the glass from the cupboard to the sink left a solid, sparkly, bright blue trail hanging in mid-air like some kind of magic. These were tracers like I had never seen. I spent a short moment painting in the air with this new found magic brush. Drawing pictures with fat blue lines as real as anything a painter could do.

I quickly realized that I needed to retreat to my room and try and stay as inconspicous as possible. The last thing I needed was a confrontation with parents in this mental state. I stopped in the bathroom on the hall on the wai upstairs to my room. Above the toilet is a small picture of a woman sitting in a lawn chair.

As I look at this picture, it suddenly becomes 3 dimensional, as if it were a window to this place; the depth and clarity of the image incredible. The woman begins to move. She is crossing her legs, then uncrossing them. Moving her arms. Looking around. She is alive, just hanging out in this picture as if bored and waiting for something to happen. I tuck the picture under my shirt and retire to my room.

At this point I am aware of the fact that I am tripping harder than I have ever tripped, and the intensity only seems to be increasing. I am unable to hold a single thought in my head, instead trying to navigate a torrent of visual and auditory stimulation causing a gale of confusion in my head. I am giddy and restless and confused all at the same time.

I remeber a confrontation with my parents. Then I am in the back of the minivan en route to somewhere. I am totally gone at this point, my mind wandering further into pure hallucination with no grouding in reality.

I find myself in a wheelchair, strapped down. I am in a room with a few other people. A police man, a minister, and a surgeon. To my right is an entire wall full of little monochrome security displays. They go from the floor to the ceiling, all showing little pictures of various places. In front of me is a swirling vortex of factal color and pattern. There appear to be three points in the center which indicate some kind of gateway that can be opened. I watch it for a while in facination.

My mental state is beyond description. I see sounds, I taste colors, Everything is overlaid with a pulsing organic fractal landscape, like a bumpmap applied to my vision. I am completely gone from reality. I have no concept of where I am, who I am, what I am doing.

I find myself wondering what time it is. How long have I been here? I call out "What fucking time is it?" and like some kind of automatic response the three men conversing in front of me converge on me, grabbing me around the throat and choking me, lifting me out of my seat in the process. They do this for a few seconds and then return to their conversation as if nothing has happened. I get quite pissed off at this. I realize I have been in a car wreck, I am badly injured, and these people treat me so? I ask again and receive the same response. I find it amusing this time, and do it a few more times before the amusement wears thin and my focus returns to the spinning vortex again.

I realize that this is a portal to other dimensions which can be unlocked with my thoughts. The key a single peice of scientific knowlege that I must think in order to pass. I think of the concept that triggers the gate and it explodes outwards in an impressive fashion. Another gate zooms into view. Another spinning fractal, 3 dimentional and alive, pusling and spinning around three focal points. I continue to unlock these gates, one after another, realizing that I have surpassed the knowledge of all humankind in the process. I am excited about the prospect of returning from this place back to earth to reveal all the secrets of the universe to the human race.

Suddenly I find myself at the end, I become aware that I am GOD, the creator of the universe, and every person who has ever walked the earth and any other planet that supports intelligent life is merely a small fraction of my intellect. Collectively they represent my godlike consciousness as partitioned and delegated among all living things.

I am aware of another fact. The universe is collapsing around me. I feel everything rushing in, faster and faster, towards the big crunch. My consciousness premeated every atom in the universe and I feel myself being compressed. My turn is over.

There are a billion other consciousnesses who also seek a turn in the universe. Every big bang is the start of a God's turn to play, experiencing life until the big crunch signals the end of the ride. Game over, time for the next one's turn...

I fear going into stasis for an unfathomably long period of time until it is my turn again. Trillions of trillions of trillions of milleniums later, and I do not wish to wait that long.

I am terrified, trying to find some way out of this impending collapse. I find it somehow. I awake and I am laying on an operating table. I realize I have come out of the anesthesia early. I feel horrible pain in my groin and look down to see a surgeon pulling my intestines out in long strands through a hole cut into my groin where my organs used to be. I scream in agony. He continues pulling out my innards, foot after foot, blood everywhere. Abruptly I am taken elsewhere.

Like a switch I am suddenly back into reality, no visuals, completely baseline. I am sitting in a hospital bed. I have a cather in and an IV as well. My parents are sitting in chairs facing the end of the bed. I look at them in bewilderment. They appear to be sleeping.

Suddenly a pair of fuzzy ears grow on each of their heads. They transform into giant teddy bears and I am laying in a crib. They are looking over me, making cooing baby talk, "Oooh, isnt the liddle baby soo cute?". I shake my head and they return to normal. Very strange. I see the furry ears start to return and I shake my head once again. My mother finds me awake and asks how I feel. I sit silent for a bit, unable to answer. The rest of the evening goes by in a daze. They remove the IV and catheter and I head home, feeling incredibly tired, brain dead, and wishing only to sleep but completely unable to. The entire ordeal lasted 2 hours (at the hospital), but felt like 48.

The doctors say I used up 90% of my neurotransmitters in that one trip. I dont know how they can guess at this number. It is a week before I feel human again. At first I thought the sluggish mental state and general half awake feeling was the thorazine they dosed me with. After a day I realize that my brain needs to recharge. I shorted it out that night, like a screwdriver across a capacitor. Lots of sparks!

To make a long story short, I didnt go to school that next week, my parents and I mutually agreeing that I should get some help. I end up at a treatment center for a few weeks. I find out while I am there that quite a few other people lost their heads on that stuff and many were busted at school during my second week at the treatment center. I hear a sordid tale about some kid who takes a knife to his mother, only minor injuries to himself and her, but he gets arrested and the bust ensues the next day.

For a good two weeks after the incident I go to sleep terrified that I will dream about that trip. The horrid parts of it were horrid beyond description. Something felt deep inside my mind, nothing visual, but a memory of horror and pain that was experienced more than observed.

So if you ever decide to go against better judgement and decide to experiment with strong psychotropics, be sure to use some common sense. Be sure you have no predisposition to mental illness (which LSD can trigger) , have a babysitter, know the kind of stuff you are getting, and always be conservative with your dose.

If you are not 100% sure you want to try it, don't do it.

Wow! (none / 0) (#210)
by Steven Edwards on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:18:01 PM EST

That sounds very... interesting.  Have you used LSD since?

-Steven

[ Parent ]

Yes, a few times afterwards (none / 0) (#224)
by PureFiction on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:40:06 PM EST

Call me stupid, but I did dose a half dozen times after this, and they were all pleasant experiences.

A trip like the one above is just soo intense and unpleasant that I would guess they are incredibly rare.  I have no idea how many micrograms (and how much potentiation by the SSRI's) were involved, but certainly much higher than recreational doses are made these days.

I ate 6 hits of some really good double dipped about a year later and it still didnt come even close to that trip.

[ Parent ]

Extremeness (none / 0) (#242)
by hbw on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:22:05 PM EST

What an extreme experience! I think I've never heard anything like it before. Well written. Thankyou for sharing this.

I have discovered a truly marvelous signature, which unfortunately the margin is not large enough to contain.
[ Parent ]

SSRIs (none / 0) (#324)
by orestes on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 09:34:10 AM EST

I've known people who've taken acid with MDMA, and their experiences were never said to be as unpleasant as yours...maybe the effect is different?

[ You Sad Bastard ]
[ Parent ]
MDMA (candyflip) is different (none / 0) (#345)
by PureFiction on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 12:36:31 PM EST

MDMA is more along the lines of a general seratonin antagonist like Mescaline (very close relative) and LSD itself.

I never noticed the odd effects of that one trip when mixing LSD and MDMA, so I think it has something to do with the specific type of serotonin antagonism. (And also the fact that the dose of that trip was off by an order of magnitude)

I.e.  SSRI's are <b>selective</b> serotonin reuptake inhibitors, so my only guess is that the selective nature of the SSRI coupled with the general seratonin antagonism of LSD created the odd mixture that produced that trip.

It's a shame almost no research is done on these types of chemicals anymore as it seems like a ripe field for exploration and beneficial results...

[ Parent ]

Definitely (none / 0) (#416)
by spiralx on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 05:42:57 AM EST

The most acid I've ever taken in one go was about 1000 micrograms, along with a pill at the same time, with my ex while we were at uni. To cut a long story short we (unsurprisingly) both completely lost it and after much screaming, running, melodrama and crazy shit we both got carted off to the local hospital in an ambulance where she had her stomach pumped and I got put in a dark room to calm down.

That's the only time I have ever lost control on drugs. While it was happening I was totally aware of what was going on and what I was doing. Or so I thought. Looking back on it I was in no way rational or in control at all. Scary.

But not acid scary. Both of us accepted that experience as the result of, well, taking too much acid. It's not stopped us doing it since, and I still take it now when I can get it and often in combinations with other psychedelics, dissasociatives and stimulants. But never that much acid in one go again :)

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

Are you sure it was LSD? (none / 0) (#424)
by PCGreg on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:07:42 AM EST

When I was a teenager, I purchased some LSD from a local dealer. I had taken the drug a number of times in the past, and was very familiar with it and it's effects. This time the dealer gave me PCP (Angel Dust) instead of LSD. Not realizing this of course, me and my buddies each did a hit and off we went. Talk about messed up! We were all hallucinating so heavily that nobody could even move around, because the floor and doors etc. were shifting around so much. One buddy spent 4 hours trying to climb through the bathroom mirror. We couldn't talk or basically do anything. I've never been so stoned in my life, before or since. It took a couple of days to fully get over the effects, and there was an article in the local paper a couple of days later about some kids being hospitalized after taking some "bad acid" in the community. A few years later, I was out drinking with a co-worker and we were sharing old drug and party stories. He got to talking about PCP and than him and his friends used to do it fairly often. By comparing notes, I realized that the asshole dealer had given us PCP instead of LSD those many years before. Your story reminded me of my experience and I thought that perhaps this is what happened to you as well. PCP is really bad stuff; I don't know if people still take it. Has anyone else had this type of thing happen to them?

[ Parent ]
Shredding your identity (4.50 / 4) (#182)
by LilDebbie on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:41:34 PM EST

Acid has the strange ability to make all of the parts of your mind that make you who you are, dissolve away, and you can see your pure sort of essence.

Something along these lines happened to me my first time. Unfortunately, instead of finding a "pure essence," I discovered nothing, and that was a little disheartening. Needless to say, this has not prevented me from trying again. Now I just concentrate on the external instead of going within. Of course, the main drawback to acid is finding any. Damn E freaks saturating the psychoactives market.

And by the way, can someone edit the story. "Adlous Huxley" and "udder lie" are quite glaring errors (unless I'm thinking of a different Huxley and the latter was some strange pun I'm not getting).

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

Sigh... (4.33 / 3) (#220)
by pla on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:33:59 PM EST

instead of finding a "pure essence," I discovered nothing

I Know what you mean...

Like most people who've tried it, I wanted to "find" something (I don't consider it a "fun" drug... Yeah, I had some *amazingly* fun times on it, but not reliable enough to take just for a good time). Didn't really care what, but I wanted to either learn about myself, or perhaps if very lucky, about some "flakey" nonphysical world. I did learn quite a lot about consciousness, which probably had a lot to do with me getting my degree in psych, but aside from that, I didn't "find" anything. Just an overwhelming feeling of absolute materialism, in the literal, not economic, sense. I even deliberately had a few bad trips, but again, to no avail.

One event does stick in my mind, though, which might give some hope to others who want to "experiment"...

A few friends and I used to play a game while tripping. Sit on opposite ends of a hallway, preferably with a carpet. Whack the floor, palm-down, and then "pull" an energy ball out of the floor (this will make more sense to pagans familiar with doing energy-work). Then toss the ball to the person at the other end of the hall. Basically just playing catch, except with a questionably-real object that both (or all) the people playing can readily perceive. No arguments about whether or not someone misses the "ball", they just know, as reliably as though using a real object.

Anyway, the last time I tripped (a few years ago), while playing this, I "threw" the "ball" badly over the catcher's head.

I hit an empty soda can on the table. Not on the edge of the table, nice and safely toward the middle. And with no one really close enough to it that could have touched it and moved away quickly.

The can flew off the table, in the direction the "ball" would have moved it.

The trip-sitter confirmed that this really happened.

As much as that interests me after the fact, I can tell you it scared the hell out of me when it happened.

Of course, since one cannot legally posess LSD in the wonderful USA, Land of the Free™, I have obviously made all of this up and you should all ignore it.


[ Parent ]
notes of a timid tripper (4.33 / 3) (#269)
by johnny on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 08:52:29 PM EST

I did hallucinogens a few times around 1973 or so while a student at Hamilton College. I had been a desultory pot smoker for a few years. I had avoided hallucinogens because the experiences of my older brother scared me. He was a big-time acid head & I didn't like what it did to him.

Once while studying in the deep woods (where I used to do most of my studying) I heard an unfamiliar rumble and then rock music. So I walked to the noise: it was a gas-powered electric generator that was powering the amps of a rock band playing in this big field in the middle of the woods--a micro-Woodstock was going on. I met some people I knew & they directed me to a big tub of Sangria. Turns out that the wine was "electric"; had been spiked with LSD. Somebody passed me some hash; it was opiated. So that day I had my first trip. Booze-hash-acid-opium. It was fun. It was groovy. I definitely saw things that weren't quite there--I'll elaborate if anybody cares--but it was fun and funny. Frisbees! Women in peasant dresses, no underwear! Barefoot in the field in the woods, beatiful autumn weather, Rock music!

Another time some friends and I ate some mushrooms. Result: headache.

A final time I tripped on Halloween. At the time I had long hair and a beard. So for my costume I cut off the beard on one side of my face and left the hair long, and on the other side I cut the hair short and left the beard. Then I put makeup on the cleanshaven side, put on some flowery gender-neutral clothes, took some LSD and went to a costume party half man, half woman.

I don't remember the exact feelings but it wasn't pleasant. I was very uncomfortable. I went back to my room, removed the makeup, shaved and cut my hair to make myself symmetrical, and spent a long time looking into the mirror to make sure that I was still me.

That was the last time I took acid. A few months later I went into the Peace Corps where no pot was available for 2 years. I got out of the pot habit & have smoked maybe 10 times in the 30 years since. As I've said in other comments, I found that I preferred alcohol to pot because when stoned I got stupid while feeling smart, but when drinking at least I knew I was getting stupid.

I'm pretty straight these days. Like most people my age I've seen plenty of people lost to chemicals. Alcohol is the most dangerous, followed by heroin. But Acid is dangerous too.

Dear Wife Betty is conventionally straight & we seldom have alcohol in our house. I don't think she's smoked pot for 25 years. We have discouraged our children (21, 19, 14) from taking recreational chemicals before their bodies have stopped growing (age 20 or so). Betty is pretty conservative about drugs. (But she's also a few years older than I am & spent parts of 1968 living in a big house with the Jefferson Airplane & tripping every day. . .)

I sometimes think I'll do some more experimentation some day; perhaps when my youngest child is out of teenagerdom. But for now I think I'll just read about it.

In the "remarkably coinkikydink" department: I'm currently reading the Illuminatus! trilogy, which is perhaps the most trippy book ever written.

Drugs gave my brother a harder and harder time until he cut out most of them, with great difficulty, about 1978. He still drinks wine & smokes cigars, however. Also he does golf, which is arguably worse.

yr frn,
jrs
Get your free download of prizewinning novels Acts of the Apostles and Cheap Complex Devices.
[ Parent ]

Order of Danger (none / 0) (#296)
by LilDebbie on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 02:28:49 AM EST

I'm amused by your opinion that alcohol is more dangerous than heroin. I presume you think this because alcohol is so much more common that, while less dangerous on an individual scale, is more likely to affect a larger amount of people.

I stay away from the addictive drugs (except nicotine [alcohol is not addictive for me], which gives me a clear picture of what addiction is while killing me slowly enough not to be a major problem) as they are usually just about the rush which isn't terribly entertaining for me. Yeah, I have to go work on set theory now (wishing I had something other than alcohol right now).

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
Mister Volition (none / 0) (#339)
by jig on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 11:32:51 AM EST

Unfortunately, instead of finding a "pure essence," I discovered nothing, and that was a little disheartening.
This sounds similar to the short story Mister Volition by Greg Egan, where the protagonist uses a newly invented technological device to attempt to find his bare naked self and discovers there isn't one.

-----
And none of you stand so tall
Pink moon gonna get ye all

[ Parent ]
Diving into emptiness (none / 0) (#404)
by Steeltoe on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 05:35:39 PM EST

Pure essence, contemplating.
Flakey shadows,
colourful shapes,
bright light-beings,
nothingness, infinite potential.

Truth look scary,
when you've spent
a lifetime fleeing.

(Not to be read aloud due to extreme lameness-factor ;*)
Explore the Art of Living

[ Parent ]

The biggest effect LSD had on me... (3.00 / 5) (#188)
by dcodea on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:51:30 PM EST

Was to never want to take drugs again, and to stop associating with the people with whom I did it. I think no good ever came of acid.

Who Dares Wins

Curious...why? (none / 0) (#249)
by lightcap on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 07:03:09 PM EST

Just wondering--why? It's a pretty big jump to never do an illegal substance again as a result of one drug...what was it about tripping in particular that caused such a radical shift?
Mommy, what were trees like?
[ Parent ]
Well, (none / 0) (#342)
by dcodea on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 12:29:58 PM EST

It didn't actually take. I have done weed since then. But I haven't gone out and purchased any, only with friends, and not with any regularity. But I sure was done with it at the time. Any hypsocrisy that may be apparent is purely coincidental.

It wasn't the trip itself, I don't think. My trips were nothing special. Mostly visual. But the whole lifestyle of being a person who does drugs just started to seem so depressing, so sad. I wasn't really straight-edge(see above) but I had sympathies. "I don't need no crutch" and so on. I just didn't want to be one of those people. They seemed lonely, and incomplete, and for the most part like they would never achieve anything with themselves. This was in Highschool, mind you.

So I just stopped hanging out with them, and stayed away. It probably wasn't the acid itself. I feel that way about most drugs.

Who Dares Wins
[ Parent ]

Similar Experience (none / 0) (#334)
by Vygramul on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 10:52:36 AM EST

While I really liked my few experiences with LSD, and it helped me go from INTP to ENTP, I also became strongly motivated not to associate with them. I think it's because you build your relationships based on the obtaining of drugs, and since the pool of available people is small, and you don't want to trip alone, you end up being stuck with people who may be fun to do drugs with, but not be around normally.

The only friendship that I took away with me when I decided to stop, was the one I had before we did drugs.
If Brute Force isn't working, you're not using enough.
[ Parent ]

"This is an udder lie" (3.75 / 4) (#189)
by avdi on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:53:37 PM EST

Damn those devious cows!

--
Now leave us, and take your fish with you. - Faramir
Does any geek want drugs illegal? (2.75 / 4) (#191)
by Thinkit on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 04:55:16 PM EST

No, we're all libertarian. The sameness can be boring--but then we can all go back to arguing about perl versus python.

yes (1.50 / 4) (#344)
by rabbits77 on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 12:34:11 PM EST

you are all fools. you are not cool , smart, or enlightened for taking drugs. To think that something religous are enlightening has happened because you took some narcotic is idiotic. I guess bio and chem aren't "geek" fields anymore or something? Why don't you actually read a fucking freshman bio text and realize that all you are doing is taking a working system(your body) and adding things to the mix that don't belong there. All you are doing is pissing in the campfire kidz. Yeah, I guess drugs fool you into thinking you are smart and enlightened. Big Deal. Now, get out of your parent's split level ranch in the burbs and do something with yourself.

[ Parent ]
Well I for one... (none / 0) (#354)
by Meatbomb on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 02:22:37 PM EST

...have spent the last 10 years of my life as a volunteer educator in the developing world. No split level parents' place for me, buckaroo. So take your silly rhetoric and put it somewhere nice.
If you read the posts here you will find a lot of sane interesting people who enjoy or have enjoyed taking LSD, and want to discuss it.
People who read this will have a more informed understanding before they chose whether or not to play with hallucinogenic drugs.
Smearing people or getting your panties all bunched up won't get anyone anywhere, why bother?

_______________

Good News for Liberal Democracy!

[ Parent ]
Read carefully (none / 0) (#356)
by Thinkit on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 03:51:58 PM EST

I said whether drugs should be illegal, not whether they should be taken. BIG difference.

[ Parent ]
Religious Narcotics (4.00 / 1) (#405)
by bitgeek on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 06:48:18 PM EST

"To think that something religous are enlightening has happened because you took some narcotic is idiotic."

Yes, to think that god spoke to you at any time is to be idiotic, or at least delusional.

But if you take a drug and experience an illusion and find it useful/amusing, you usually don't try to foist your hallucinations off on others and encode them into law.

So, at least those who use drugs and find enlightenment are less idiotic than those who are naturally delusional.

Finally, LSD is not a narcotic.  Or maybe you don't know what that word actualy means?  

Its clear that you have not done it, so I find it amusing that you say doing it has no value-- that is something you are ignorant about.

Maybe not ignorant, but idiotic.

At its core, though, doing drugs is a human right.  Just as we have the right to breath, and in all other ways control our body, we have the right to experiment with its chemistry.

The entirety of the drug "war" is not about keeping anyone safe (how is killing people ensuring their safety?) -- it is about control.

And the first, most effecctive prison is that of the human mind.  

I'm sorry to see you've thrown away the key, please just stop trying to take ours away as well.
-- Between 1982 and 1988 US Income tax revenues doubled from approx. $500 Billion to $1 trillion due to Reagans tax cuts.
[ Parent ]

Define "potent"... (4.57 / 7) (#198)
by pla on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:05:14 PM EST

First, I apologize if I re-post this... It doesn't seem to have appeared after a few minutes, so I've decided to try again.

Anyway...

As the most potent known hallucinogen...<snip>

By only one possible definition of "potent". In terms of dose/effect, yes, LSD produces the most effect for the dose.

In terms of peak experience, DMT (n,n-dimethyl tryptamine) makes acid look like ordinary candy. It only lasts for a few minutes, however.

In terms of duration, TMA-6 (related to mescaline) has a decent peak intensity, except that it lasts literally more than half a week (anyone that tells you they tripped on LSD for longer than 12 hours, lies. They may have experienced lingering "oddities" of consciousness for a few days, but not enough that they can fairly call it "still tripping").

In terms of "closeness to actual psychosis", plain ol' atropine will produce a delusional hallucinogenic state to put acid to shame. As you pointed out, you don't "see" things on acid that don't really exist, just distortions of otherwise real things. On the anticholinergics (of which atropine represents the "prototypical" member) , you most certainly do, and you *believe* them as well. Of course, it also has the highest risk of killing you. But, I suppose we could consider death as the "ultimate" trip. <G>


Lying? (none / 0) (#207)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:15:16 PM EST

anyone that tells you they tripped on LSD for longer than 12 hours, lies
That's what I always thought, still think, but so many people say it. I dunno, I can usually sleep if I wanna after about six or eight.

I don't think they're lying, but I don't think they were tripping for three days or whatever either. There's something else going on there.

The other common one is people who take another trip like the next day and insist it still works. What's up with that? It does nothing until you've built up those neurotransmitters again. I've tried it like four days later and it barely affects me at all. I reckon you need at least a week.

I suspect a gigantic amount of Placebo effect in these people myself.

        Pre.............
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
Okay, perhaps not outright *lying*... (none / 0) (#240)
by pla on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:15:00 PM EST

I don't think they're lying, but I don't think they were tripping for three days or whatever either. There's something else going on there.
...
I suspect a gigantic amount of Placebo effect in these people myself.

Ah, I apologize, I did phrase that a bit to strongly. Although some people I've talked to I can tell for certain just plain lie (a person simply cannot adequately fake knowledge of a trip to convince someone who really has experienced it), I agree that in many cases people simply don't know quite what they experienced. Perhaps they didn't get real acid in the first place, and placebo accounts for the entire thing. Hell, I've gotten bogus blotter, and although I knew for certain after three hours, I really had to wonder for a while if it would sneak up on me and peak me by surprise (I *hate* that, can really lead to some awkward situations <G>).

But it just gets broken down too efficiently, and doesn't even saturate its metabolic pathway (which would allow for *some* range of personal difference, like with dextromethorphan where about 10% of people have a far less efficient form of p450-2D6, so they literally can trip for a couple days). So if someone really does know what tripping feels like, and they claim it as still going strong three days later, it just doesn't really inspire me with confidence about their claims.


The other common one is people who take another trip like the next day and insist it still works

That one seems a bit fuzzier. I've always gone by the rule-of-thumb that a person needs to either wait three days, or double the dose. But a *lot* of personal variability can affect how soon it will work again. In your case, you mention at least four days. I've tried it within two, and although I noticed a markedly reduced effect, it still "worked".


[ Parent ]
Higher dosage vs. lesser effects (none / 0) (#294)
by Dragomire on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 02:18:20 AM EST

I've also noticed that I required higher doses of drugs to continue to get the same effects.

I used to be a big E-head, meaning I dropped Ecstacy 2-4 times in a weekend for over a year straight. I noticed that I eventually built up a huge tolerance to the drug. I would have to do 4 or more hits at one time to even feel the effects (a street value of $80-$100), if I even felt them at all.

I haven't done E in almost 3 years now, but would like to again. I figure after 3 years, I should have lost much of my tolerance for the drug. I do Acid about once a year, and find that by spacing it out like that, each trip is almost as good as the first.

[ Parent ]

Not to mention... (none / 0) (#367)
by phybre187 on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:03:09 PM EST

...Salvinorin-A, which "is active at 200 - 500 mcg when vaporized and inhaled", makes DMT look like a daydream (judging from experience), and--at least according to Daniel Siebert (I don't know if Shulgin has ever talked about salvinorin, sorry)--"it is the most potent naturally occurring hallucinogen thus far isolated" (published in 1994)

And, as a final added bonus, it's legal to possess, consume, sell, wipe your ass with, etc.

[ Parent ]
Possibly... (none / 0) (#409)
by pla on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 08:55:16 PM EST

I have heard this...

I have also tried to reproduce such experiences, even using short-acting MAOI's (harmaline as obtained from syrian rue) to potentiate it, and failed to get more than a mild buzz. Though, fairly, I do not have the equipment to produce 500mcg of 100% pure salvinorin-A <G>
The most intense experiences I've heard of from sources I know personally amounts to something similar to E... A nice body buzz with some mild perceptual distortion.

Time to ask my friendly neighborhood chemist for a favor... ;-)


And, as a final added bonus, it's legal to possess, consume, sell, wipe your ass with, etc.

Unfortunately, the DEA currently has it under "consideration" for scheduling... Which almost invariably leads to a change in its legal status within a few months.

Sigh. When will some people learn to just let people mess with their own heads if they really want to? The way I see it, two classes of drug users exist - self-destructive, and responsible. The self desctructive ones very conveniently remove themselves from the gene pool, leaving only responsible users if all drugs became legal. Problem solved.


[ Parent ]
If it weren't for Acid... (4.00 / 4) (#201)
by Starwing on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:07:10 PM EST

...I never would have kicked speed. I was doing a gram and a half of speed a week when I kicked it, (without rehab) on one LSD trip.

That's the miracle of LSD. You can fix what's wrong with yourself once you realize how LSD works. (I recommend listening to the Lightning Seeds, Alphaville, and Men Without Hats to assist you... these three bands helpped me discover the dynamics of Acid.)

Great story, BTW. Thanks for writing it.

        --=S T A R W I N G=--
Don't just stare at me like I'm a T.V.

Similar experience (none / 0) (#436)
by nomoreh1b on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 05:18:03 PM EST

I had a similar experience, though I wasn't as heavy into using other substances as you were(say smoking dope/drinking 1-2 times/week). What I found after I took acid, my interest in other substances decreased rather markedly.

I've read that in some folks Acid can have an anti-addictive effect. There was one study in which 15-25% or so more of chronic alchoholics were able to eliminate that addiction in their lives compared to what would have been expected-this was one of the things that generated a lot of interest in LSD among mental health professionals in the 60's.



[ Parent ]

Synesthesia and Grof (4.00 / 2) (#204)
by cr8dle2grave on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:12:22 PM EST

A couple of short comments:
  1. I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned the phenomenon of synesthesia as it has always been, in my experience, the single most pronounced aspect of the LSD experience. Basically, synesthesia is sensory confusion or co-mingling: hearing colors and seeing sounds. In addition to basic synesthetic experiences, I've also found that under the affects of LSD I experience in a deeply visceral way the "shape" of ideas. This is much harder to explain. It's really not so much a literal "seeing", but a sense of the structure of thought in played out in geometric space.
  2. Anyone else read any Stanislov Grof. He's something of a buddhist/freudian transpersonal psychologist who conducted what I believe is the most extensive clinical research on LSD use in a psychotherapy setting. If I recall correctly, he was at one point regularly handing out in excess of 3000 micrograms of LSD-25 -- that's about 10x to 40x the normal street dosage -- of pharmaceutical grade stuff from Sandoz to bankers and housewife's in an attempt to accelerate the psychoanalytic process.
p.s. Anybody else ever watch Peter Greenaway's Prospero's Books on acid? The first time I ever saw that movie I was on altogether too much acid; I'll never be the same again.

---
Unity of mankind means: No escape for anyone anywhere. - Milan Kundera


I've experienced that.... (none / 0) (#426)
by morkeleb on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 01:25:33 PM EST

1. I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned the phenomenon of synesthesia as it has always been, in my experience, the single most pronounced aspect of the LSD experience. Basically, synesthesia is sensory confusion or co-mingling: hearing colors and seeing sounds.

Well it was on shrooms but and not acid. Whenever I listen to music and stare at a wall or carpet or pretty much anything, the sounds start to appear as shapes in the walls moving in time to the beat of the music. It's really cool if your're listening to something primitive and tribal with a strong heavy bass drum in the background. Drum circles are great for this.
"If I read a book and it makes my whole body so cold no fire can ever warm me, I know that is poetry." - Emily Dickinson
[ Parent ]
FWIW (3.00 / 1) (#206)
by medham on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:14:19 PM EST

"For what it's worth..."

Analphabetico.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.

Nice and rare... (2.50 / 2) (#211)
by wazoo on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:18:30 PM EST

This sounds like Timothy Leary without all the techtalk, who usually seems utterly insignificant once you've experinced the "doors" cleansed. Nobody would understand, if they stand on a sort of nazi ground, and by saying this, I'm leaving absolutely nothing for the modern idiot, I will explain nothing, so call me a dopefiend. Only an acidhead or an independent mand could write something so personal, but I still sense the squares above your head, you apologize and so fourth. But what this comes down to is what Tim called the "social game", there are many different kinds of games, the tech-kuro5hin-whatever is just one of them. People in Montenegro(or what ever) don't think that much about coca-cola and sun-unix-freeBSD-server-components-raid-scsi-you-get-the-point-?-stuff. They get up in the morning for different kinds of reasons. Reasons that might seem indifferent. Maybe they're gonna take a walk in the desert, drink tea, whatever. The west is big and strong and pushing it's big dick into everything. Make western baby's, let's love the Bush. Terrorism is something we don't understand, because we stand on a different kind of soil. "And why the fuck should we want to understand?" you(kidding?) might ask yourself. But what the people need to underline is that, just about everything is idiological dependent, and you can't just say "fuck" to something, because it's different. This should resonate, I could imagine, with Leary's "social game" theory. The world is not zeroes and ones, unless you believe in nihilism and Nietzche. I haven't tried LSD (the stuff is hard to get here, everything works according to the great dot) but I'm sure it's great etc. I don't smoke pot, I do smoke fags and I have tried mushrooms about five times. So I guess you could call me a dopefiend, but I'm not. I just don't belive in ONE thing, I like a lot of things. And I believe in a social/idological independent individuality being brought forth by the mixing of medias and information overload. Love it or leave it. We're in this boat together, but we're all talking different kinds of languages, it's the time we live in, everything prospers and breathes. And to rasman there isn't a peak, there isn't enlightenment, there's a revelation of something, that could be awful, your reality and your friends might suck, extremely hard(?) Maybe your life could dangle by a thin thread, or maybe you CAN get up and go to work, find a pleasure in the western nihilistic shit. And I'm not gonna apologize for shit, I don't feel the need to adapt to that kind of philosophy that the westeren world represent. Hope it made you think about the kind of thoughts I think. Or maybe just ...click...click... "For the multitoxicologists: Combine E and acid that they peak at the same time. It's a good trip guarantee. " equals complete stupidity. Drink some water ...ups...complete loss of formatting, hope you can read...

Keep this person away from drugs. (none / 0) (#243)
by Falling uP on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:23:13 PM EST

I'm afraid that if drugs have the quality of making you less coherent and "out-of-touch with reality" this man might actually fall off the deep end.
and i quote:
"what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul." - (Billy Madison)
sorry to flame and all, but i really could not follow a single thought to completion in that response.

[ Parent ]
Performance enhancement (4.00 / 2) (#214)
by dennis on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:21:02 PM EST

On the contrary, you may be your most creative. Acid is not an everyday consciousness level. Its marked by intense thought, and amazing powers of concentration.

Is it really, or does it just make you think you're at your best? Lots of drunks think their driving is enhanced... I don't have an opinion one way or the other, I'm just wondering if anyone's ever done studies to measure whether mental performance is enhanced or degraded.

Enhanced performance (none / 0) (#227)
by dlur on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:45:18 PM EST

I know that there is always a lot of talk about LSD and other psychoactive drugs being used experimentally by the US government on various soldiers and CIA agents to make them into fully concentrated killing machines. I have no documented proof of that this did happen, but I know I have read of it.

I know from my experiences with LSD and other psychoactive chemicals that my senses definately are enhanced, most of the time to very high levels. I've been able to hear worms crawling through the lawn at nighttime, locate them purely by sound and pick them up while on LSD. Another thing I've noticed is that the senses sort of become one. It's hard to explain, but you can almost see music, hear what a juicy apple tastes like, feel what someone looks like without touching them. It's not that the senses are jarbled, it's just that they are enhanced to massive levels where they start to overlap one another, but without becomming overly confusing.

This being said, my advice with LSD is to make sure you are actually taking LSD before you take it and not some bathtub chemical. Also if you are weak of mind, in a poor emotional state, or generally unhappy with your life don't do LSD as you will most likely have a bad trip. You DON'T want to have a bad trip.



[ Parent ]
Military drug tests (none / 0) (#247)
by boyde on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:55:52 PM EST

Yep, there were (near the end of the article) drug tests conducted by the American and British military. IIRC, there is footage of a small group of British soldiers that had been given LSD and let loose in a garden. I believe I saw it on Channel 4 (in England) - before they decided broadcasting Big Brother made for more interesting viewing. That other bastion of liberal anarchy, the Guardian (heh), has a more indepth look at the same subject.

I believe they were scared that "the Russians had a wonder drug that could turn people into robotic super-soldiers".

There is also is a history of psychedelics from the Grauniad's sister, here.

Night :)


Rolling around in the muck is no way to get clean.
[ Parent ]

Grauniad (4.00 / 1) (#319)
by NoNeeeed on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 08:31:56 AM EST

For the benefit of those who didn't understand the joke in the above post and just thought that boyde had done a typo, the Guardian is famous for once having misspelt its own name in the masthead.  Not very clever.

It has yet to live it down. :->

Paul

[ Parent ]

seeing sound (5.00 / 1) (#253)
by ocelot on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 07:30:50 PM EST

It's hard to explain, but you can almost see music, hear what a juicy apple tastes like, feel what someone looks like without touching them. It's not that the senses are jarbled, it's just that they are enhanced to massive levels where they start to overlap one another, but without becomming overly confusing.

This is called synaesthesia. Some people have this even without drugs - I knew a guy who tasted oranges when he heard a certain sound.

[ Parent ]

hmm (4.00 / 1) (#290)
by Rahaan on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 12:45:23 AM EST

do you have any more info on synesthesia?

I was recently talking to a girl who tried to describe it, she kept going on and on about how some words were certain colors, and some flavors felt 'pointy' - she broke out crying when she was 8 or 9 because her grandmother made round lemon cookie things and she couldn't deal with something being round and pointy at the same time.  Heh.

Anyway, I tried looking for reputable info on the subject, but everything I read was either useless or used the same meaningless (meaningless to me - saying the the word 'Vegetable' is red over and over does not make me understand) phrases to describe everything.  Do you have any personal experience with it?


you know, jake.. i've noticed that, since the tacos started coming, the mail doesn't so much come as often, or even at all
[ Parent ]

Article about synesthesia on sciam.com (none / 0) (#299)
by edAqa on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 03:23:13 AM EST

Scientific American had an article just the other day about this. You can be your own judge of "reputation", but at least it is a start. Scientific American: What is synesthesia?
-- edA-qa
[ Parent ]
Thank you (none / 0) (#315)
by Rahaan on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:36:18 AM EST

(:


you know, jake.. i've noticed that, since the tacos started coming, the mail doesn't so much come as often, or even at all
[ Parent ]
Discover magazine (none / 0) (#403)
by ocelot on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 05:05:11 PM EST

Discover Magazine had an article about synesthesia back in 1999. I've read about it other places as well, but that's the only thing I specifically remember.

I don't have any personal experience except the guy I already mentioned, who I didn't know well anyways.

I think it's like trying to explain color to someone who is colorblind. You can have an intellectual understanding of it, but it doesn't really make sense unless you experience it.

[ Parent ]

Fascinating. (none / 0) (#271)
by haflinger on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 09:11:17 PM EST

I've never dropped acid.

However, I have experienced a number of these sensory effects - while drunk. Alcohol generally simultaneously enhances my senses while disabling my ability to interact with the outside world. I become a sponge, absolutely fascinated by everything, like the graininess of the carpet for example.

However, my metabolic rate is unusual (extremely) and I suspect that my interaction with a lot of psychoactives is similarly unusual.

Did people from the future send George Carlin back in time to save rusty and K5? - leviramsey
[ Parent ]

IMHO yes (none / 0) (#379)
by phuzz on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 09:30:14 PM EST

I've never tried LSD but I've been smoking weed for a few years now and I have come to the conclusion that this is one of the central issues about LSD and other similar drugs.  Do they enhance consciousness, or just make you think they do?  Personally I have found that I can understand complex phylisophical (sp?) ideas better when I am stoned rather than when I am not (alcahol impaires this).  I feel that I have enough proof for my own opinion, although I don't think I could convince a sceptical onlooker.  Others must make up their own mind.

[ Parent ]
LSD and dreams? (3.00 / 1) (#217)
by Steven Edwards on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:25:39 PM EST

Does LSD have any effects on dreams?  I would imagine it would be somewhat surreal, to say the least.  I have never used it, but have always been curious about it.

-Steven

Yes (none / 0) (#221)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:35:04 PM EST

It stops you sleeping so you don't have any.

I took a small hit once, it'd been in my pocket for ages so I figured it was ruined. Indeed, it didn't seem to be working so I went to bed and fell asleep. It woke me up again about an hour later and kept me awake even though it was barely noticable otherwise.
I guess you might be able to sleep on sleeping pills too, but they tend to supress dreams don't they?

After the comedown is a completely dreamless sleep for me, and I usually dream pretty intensely most nights.

        Pre........
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
Yes and no. (4.00 / 1) (#229)
by pla on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:46:47 PM EST

Almost every drug you can possibly take has the effect of suppressing REM sleep.

With the exception of the hallucinogens in the same family as LSD.

It *greatly* increases REM fraction, up to nearly 100% of sleep (normally around 15%, more if you "sleep in").

However, a problem exists here...

You can't sleep on acid. I mean, you *can*, but ask any tripper about trying to after coming down and *really* wanting to get some sleep. It just doesn't work.

If someone dosed you *after* you fell asleep, it might work. Other than that, good luck.

Personally, I have always suspected this results from its effect as an NSRI... Your body breaks down serotonin into melatonin, which breaks down in light. So, during the day, melatonin levels stay low, and at night, they go up partly as a result of our body's natural cycles and partly because we usually sleep in dark places. Since LSD prevents the reuptake of serotonin, you produce less melatonin. Thus, you have a great deal of difficulty sleeping.

I informally confirmed this connection by encouraging tripping friends to take melatonin when they came down and wanted to go to sleep but couldn't, and that seemed to work *very* well. Obviously, that has no statistical significance (or experimental validity) whatsoever, but, take it as you will.


[ Parent ]
Don't know about LSD, but THC... (none / 0) (#317)
by Enocasiones on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:49:22 AM EST

Almost every drug you can possibly take has the effect of suppressing REM sleep.

Maybe that´s what happens with LSD, but I´ve gone to sleep high on pot countless times and I can remember dreaming quite a few times (hey, yesterday I smoked just before going to sleep and I still remember the football that hit me in my dreams...)

I suppose it´s because REM sleep is the last phase of each sleep cycle, when the effects of THC have more or less vanished. Or maybe I´m too imaginative.

[ Parent ]

In what way did it change your life? (4.60 / 5) (#225)
by pexatus on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:40:27 PM EST

You say that it is impossible to describe to someone who has never tripped what it is like, which I believe. You also say that it changed your life. I presume that you spend most of your time not tripping, and so it should be possible for you to explain to a non-acid-user how acid has changed the parts of your life you spend not on acid.

I mean, how can your values and judgments be shaped by a drug, while you are not on it? Maybe I can understand if it broke down mental barriers, and then later when you come down, you applied the thoughts you had while tripping to your sober worldview.

Can you give some sort of examples of how acid changed your life, other than discovering a cool way to kill some time on the weekends? Or is it just that you act the same, but are in a happier mental state in general?

Very good question. (4.25 / 4) (#239)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:14:50 PM EST

I can't believe I've never seen it asked before, despite telling people it changes you forever numerous times. This is all going to be way more subjective than the stuff I'm usually comfortable talking about here.

I notice small detail a lot more since that first trip. Little details that would have passed me by entirely before catch my attention more often now. The detail doesn't turn out as irrelevant as you'd probably think it would either.

When actually tripping, there's something that happens to your verbal centers that extends your vocabulary amazingly. You use words you didn't even know you knew before, and some of that sticks around afterwards I think. Of course, my poor spelling stops me using a lot of words online so that might not show here. Even if this is an illusion, and it could well be, it gives a certain confidence to your words that can improve the way you speak in itself.

Along with that (possibly illusional) flexability I think I gained in the way I talk, of course comes a similar effect on the way I think. This is probably because I think in words, I know people who don't use words in that way and think more visually. I can't say how it would effect their thinking but imagine that having 'seen' more strange and obscure objects and physics would help similarly.

They say one problem with getting older is that you start to reject new ideas, your brain crystalizes. You can't teach an old dog new tricks etc. I think the psychedelic experience can postpone and possibly even reverse a lot of that too. Possibly something about all those almost randomly firing neurons making new pathways in the brain easier to form. Pure speculation there of course.

My appreciation of Art has gone from basically none at all to, I think, more than many of the people around me. A lot of art comes from an artist trying to express strange mental states, concievably having experienced more of them yourself helps you to recognise and understand them in others, even indirectly.

A good coder will be able to understand how someone else's code works from the bugs it shows, the limits of it's operation, even without having to see the source. I think in the same way that you can learn more about how you, individually, think by experiencing the extremes of your own mind going haywire. I doubt understanding more about yourself and the way you think would be harmful.

Regression. Some trips just throw memories out at you that you'd long since forgotten. Some would say even "repressed". I'm not sure I think there's much to psychoanalysis, but if there is these experiences will be better than dreams as source material, and you can't help but analyze yourself whether you think it's bunk or not.

Actually, I'm not sure that was true before I tripped either. Could well have made me more introspective, or at least better at it.

I could probably go on, but I don't want to exaust the stuff other people may say and I'm hungry too.

        Pre..........
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
Oh (5.00 / 1) (#241)
by priestess on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:20:52 PM EST

And I don't want to give the impression you couldn't get all this, and probably more, by just reading more books and paying attention more often. How many people do that though?

        Pre........
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
priestess nailed it (4.50 / 2) (#295)
by Irobot on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 02:23:33 AM EST

I wasn't going to post anymore to this article, as I have *way* too much coding to do and have spent *way* too long on various comments. But this question really got me; it was never explicitly asked of me before. Reading priestess's post recalled many of the experiences I've had. The heightened detail and visual acuity, the increased expressiveness, the "breakdown" of thought patterns, and the reflexive memory recall.

One or two other things - beyond an enhanced verbal expressiveness, one of my friends and I established a non-verbal understanding that lasts to this day. Perhaps it's simply an example of people going through an extremely intense experience together.

In explanation of the breakdown of thought patterns - humans are conditioned to expect the world to be a certain way. On acid, it isn't. Sometimes, walls bend, sounds are visible, solid objects seem liquid, etc. I'm a firm empiricist - I believe it was my perceptions that were altered under the influence; however, it certainly does make one question the state of the world. A striking demonstration that things are not always what they seem, which has spread to other parts of my life - thinking outside the box, if you will.

An extension of that is that I question everything until I'm satisfied with my understanding of it. Don't believe the hype - the "experts" (anti-drug or anything else) generally have an agenda they're pushing. Many seem to do so without sufficient knowledge of their subject. And once you start questioning one thing and find it faulty, it spreads to others...

Irobot

PS - pre, if you read this - thank you for a well thought out response that brought back lots of experiences. Also, about the shrooms vs. acid question, you're right - they are more similar than different. Perhaps chemical analouges like heroin and demerol? Decidedly different however...in my experience...
Irobot

The one important thing I have learned over the years is the difference between taking one's work seriously and taking one's self seriously. The first is imperative and the second is disastrous. -- Margot Fonteyn
[ Parent ]

Well, (5.00 / 1) (#264)
by FuriousXGeorge on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 08:34:22 PM EST

"I mean, how can your values and judgments be shaped by a drug, while you are not on it?"

The same way a moment of religious bliss or extreme trauma can change your life even after the experience is over.

--
-- FIELDISM NOW!
[ Parent ]

huh (4.25 / 4) (#228)
by xriso on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 05:45:46 PM EST

Have you considered that the acid was just making you think that you'd discovered something that is true, profound, and amazing? Be careful of deluding yourself.

If I ever take such a trip, I would analyse all my perceptions in the most logical way possible (analysis occurs during trip), and then later analyse my analysis. If I find that my logic was twisted or broken, then it simply isn't worth it to derive any meaning from what I was thinking.

Oh, and why is it acronymised to LSD? Shouldn't it be LAD?
--
*** Quits: xriso:#kuro5hin (Forever)

Where the L(S)D comes from. (4.60 / 5) (#234)
by RofGilead on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:02:24 PM EST

In German, the language in which the drug was originally named, it was Lysergic Saure Diethylamide. Saure is the German translation of acid.

-= RofGilead =-

---
Remember, you're unique, just like everyone else. -BlueOregon
[ Parent ]
More on Sour (none / 0) (#397)
by Rhodes on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 12:03:49 PM EST

Acid is the translation for the german word saure- another translation (sound wise) would be the english word sour, which is often used to describe the taste of foods with low pH (citrus fruits, and their juice(s) come to mind).

[ Parent ]
Sometimes analysis destroys an experience. (4.00 / 3) (#263)
by highfreq on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 08:09:04 PM EST

For an experience more people can to relate to, take playing or just listening to music. If you analyze the hell out of the experience, then you loose the groove. The experience is no longer as intimate nor as powerful.

I'll agree that LSD users can be often delusional, thinking that they have found the Truth. Certainly, we could all use more rational introspection. But I don't believe that just because your can't explain something you have learned doesn't mean you haven't learned anything.

For truer insight into the working of the mind, I would suggest daily 30-60 minute meditation sessions. Certainly not as exciting as a thrill a minute LSD trip, but I've found that my reflections are more substantial and it is easier to put my ideas into action when my mind and body are relaxed. Plus, when does it not help to be cool, calm and collected?

[ Parent ]
Well.. (5.00 / 1) (#268)
by mindstrm on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 08:46:29 PM EST

If you haven't taken one, you can't say.

I can vouch.. it's not so much about profound insight as it is a stripping away of natural filters. It is something that is difficult to explain unless you've experienced it.. but the article rings true.

As to whether that's the 'real you'.. that's more philosophical. But a good dose of LSD definately does put you in another place.

It's like a large part of the personality that makes up 'you' vanishes... and you are left as, well, just a brain, a big i/o device. You notice things you wouldn't have before about how your mind works.. ie: what sorts of things are perception and what are raw input/output.

I can say that, unlike other drugs where you often have feelings of profound insight (Marijuanna for example) that later turn out to be just "Pot thoughts" that make no sense.. LSD is totally different.


[ Parent ]

see it the other way around (5.00 / 2) (#307)
by kubalaa on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 05:54:20 AM EST

If you analyze your straight-logic while tripping, and find it to be twisted or broken, how is that any different?

This is why I am amazed that conservatives can do drugs at all. When you have seen how your own perspective can change from moment to moment, how can you not be open-minded to others' perspectives?

[ Parent ]

Where do we find meaning? (5.00 / 1) (#349)
by mindlace on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 01:15:57 PM EST

The interesting thing about this argument is that it is not limited to those of us who have taken hallucinogens.

How does your brain generate 'meaning' anyway? Why are some experiences profound and some banal?

I had the first-hand experience of living with someone who had cancer in the temporal lobe of her brain, an area largely considered to mediate what we find "meaningful".

That experience, and the subsequent research I did, led me to feel that we do have a buit-in 'meaning detector', that applies meaning to concepts.

In short, while it does seem possible to train your mind such that those experiences that are meaningful to you also have significant correlates in the world you live in, there's no a priori connection, and that you can find or perceive the profound even in the most rediculous and unreal of things.

In summary, you can't trust your mind with or without the drugs and you need to be very, very careful about how you ascribe meaning.

[ Parent ]

Write it down... (none / 0) (#396)
by bitgeek on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 12:02:37 PM EST

Better yet, get a tape recorder.  One of my last experiments, I took a notepad and meant to write down my observations to see how profound they were outside the experience.

I should have taken a tape recorder because I couldn't write fast enough...

In the end, they were profound but not as profound as they seemed.  

I think, also, that the quality of the work will be affected by whether you're working on somehting, or just sitting thinking.  

Hell, even alcohol improves software writing.
-- Between 1982 and 1988 US Income tax revenues doubled from approx. $500 Billion to $1 trillion due to Reagans tax cuts.
[ Parent ]

You have a solid concept of what reality is. NOT! (2.00 / 3) (#235)
by Comblock on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:06:09 PM EST

>> You don't see fake things. (--snip--) You have a solid concept of what reality is.

Well, past experience tells me you are mistaken. While LSD isn't considered a true Hallucinagen, it CAN trigger an occasional Hallucination.

Case in point: I was with a friend (about 28 years ago) and we dosed some windowpane 'vitiman A' at his house. The 'A' had already hit us, and we were sitting on his living room floor talking, and smoking joints, when suddenly, a black widow spider came down from the ceiling on a strand of spider silk right between us!

Needless to say, I was alarmed at this intrusion, but my buddy didn't seem to care, as he talked a blue streak, looking right through the spider at me. I excitedly said "Look at that black widow!", he said "where?", I said, "Right there between us!", while pointing right at him, since the spider was directly between us.

Then he said "I don't see anything between us.", as he moved his face close to the spider, which was spinning silk with it's legs, as it lowered itself to the ground. I yelled "STOP! Don't move, it's right there in front of your face!", and he responded that he still didn't see anything, and as he said that, the black widow 'exploded' in a minature purple and white fireworks display!

It was fucking awesome, that spider was REAL! But I had no more Hallucinations during the rest of the trip. However, I also have had a couple of less concrete examples during other trips previous to that experience.

For the last 30 years, I've read extensively on LSD and other similar drugs, and there are accounts of true Hallucinations during an acid trip, but they are few and far between.

Funny to see this article today, I just got my ancient and rare, Psychedelic library out of storage, and I'm going to auction it on ebay.


Too right! (none / 0) (#313)
by tonyenkiducx on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:14:38 AM EST

LSD opens up your mind to do things it normally says it cant do, such as creating false images. Considering that what we see is all show to us by our brain, theres no reason why we cant tell our brains to change the image as its being processed. I believe that LSD frees you to do that.

Tony.
I see a planet where love is foremost, where war is none existant. A planet of peace, and a planet of understanding. I see a planet called utopia. And I see us invading that planet, because they'd never expect it
[ Parent ]
Hi (4.50 / 6) (#236)
by boyde on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:07:30 PM EST

I've done acid.

I had my first joint when I was twelve. I have been smoking weed consistently since I was fourteen. I went on my first trip (LSD) when I was fifteen. I have ingested gruesome doses. I have mixed, I have matched. I have sat motionless for hours, paralysed by my own thought. I have talked theology with the devil, I have recalled history with the trees. I have recoiled at the end and I have rejoiced for the beginning. I have touched music and heard colours. I have seen that all is nothing, and realised that everything is something. I have eaten pain and vomited happiness.

I enjoy acid.

I want to see where I can be. What I can be.

To quell the murmuring voices of the dissenters, let me tell you: I have a good education. I am happy. I have never conducted myself with violence. Ever. I believe everyone is good. I see the light within.

Altering your mind can be bad. Yes. I have seen people fall. I have witnessed people succumb. To become faint whispers of themselves; a pale shadow of what they once were. It's saddening.

People die all the time from many different things. This is sad too.

Enough of this waxing lyrical. Let me tell you of what I have learnt.

The physics of taking acid is simply a ritual, a method to move to a different state of mind. It is no different to that mental manipulation which a buddhist performs to reach his/her altered state. It is simply mind control. Your own mind. It frees your mind of the constraints of your conditioning, the straitjacket of what you have learnt. It makes you able to learn again. This is no different to what the Buddhist does. To free your mind. To open it.

I have had bad experiences on acid. This I can say without a doubt. I have felt the void come for me. (sidenote: a bottle of vodka and a warm, thick blanket works wonders here :) I have come out of them wiser, in my own mind at least.

I know that acid is not for everyone, the same way that I know computers are not for everyone, or christianity, or Star Wars, or photography. If you don't like it the first time, its unlikely you will like it the second. Once again, your mileage may vary.

How to have a good trip? It's simple. Two words. Set. Setting. If you have the correct frame of mind, if your are willing to be open, and I mean _really_ open, if you are willing to see all you believe dashed away, to see it convoluted so you see it from every angle, you are set. If you are in an environment that is comfortable, that you can behave in any manner, you are in the correct setting. For the latter I suggest the countryside - there is no lack of understanding there; the countryside accepts whatever you may choose to be. Please don't tell me you went to a nightclub on acid and then had a terrible time. Unless you are an old hand, avoid the turmoil of habitation; go somewhere calm where you can control your surroundings. You can control your reality. No. i don't mean in the fashion of The Matrix. You can control your reactions to what you perceive as your reality however, every last moment. It's simply a matter of will.

To summarise (for this has dragged on, I do apologise): Acid is not a bad thing. I have seen many people from all walks of life take and enjoy acid. From microbiologist PhD students to postal workers, from fifteen year olds to fifty year olds. Perhaps enjoy is an incorrect word. Perhaps learn may be better. And please, this is not a "you must take acid or you just don't know nuffin", there are many and great people who probably don't even know what acid is, there are many who have taken it and come away with nothing, or worse: less. Shit happens.

My point (after wandering halfway round the world to get there) is this: it is not the acid that is important, it is not the trip. The action is unimportant, it's the consequence that matters. Acid opens the mind. Many, many other things open the mind. Trauma. A good teacher. Seeing a pint of milk. Being woken suddenly. I could go on, but I hope you see my point. It's this opening, this ability, no, willingness to take in, to absorb, to contemplate everything, this lack of judgement before judging, this removal of preconception that is important. It is not how you get there.

Who cares how we got to the party. Isn't it nice now we are all here?


Rolling around in the muck is no way to get clean.

In my eagerness, (none / 0) (#248)
by boyde on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 07:02:01 PM EST

I failed to point out my current age. This is 24. And a bit, for those overly concerned for detail.
Rolling around in the muck is no way to get clean.
[ Parent ]
You should read... (3.50 / 4) (#244)
by MSBob on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 06:26:11 PM EST

"Scanner darkly". Particularly paying attention to the very last page. That's all I have to say about this. Either that or you'll be collecting bugs in a bottle shortly.
I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

Hmm... (none / 0) (#293)
by DuckSauce on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 02:13:53 AM EST

Perhaps you should read _A Scanner Darkly_ again. I get the feeling you don't know what it was about. Reverend Phil was addicted to amphetamines. That particular book was a response to his addiction .

LSD is not addictive.

Narconon page about LSD
Good Drugs Guide about addiction and tolerance to LSD
.

[ Parent ]
Paul Erdós (3.50 / 4) (#252)
by paugq on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 07:14:03 PM EST

Paul Erdos (more info here and here), the third most prolific mathematician in History (only backwards Gauss and Euler), was very addicted to amphetamines. He used to work for 19 hours a day, sleeping only 6 hours, and having 150 mg of ampheatines each day for more than four decades.

For those who don't know anything about Erdós (pronunced Erdish), he was born in Hungary in 1913 and died in the USA in 1996, aged 83. He wrote more than 1,500 papers, at a rate of 50 papers per year (note that 50 papers is more than an average mathematician writes during all his life). One of his greatest friends was Harold Graham, who was also a mathematician -Erdós seldom dealt with anyone who was not a mathematician-.

Worried about the possible consequences of amphetines in Erdós' body, Graham once challenged him: Erdós would live without ampheatines (or any other drug) for one month and Graham would pay him 500 dollars. Erdós accepted the bet just to demonstrate he was able to do that. He didn't do it for the money, in fact Erdós never had much money: he donated or just gave away it to friends, students or any charitative organization as soon as he had more than a few dollas.

Of course, Erdós was able to resist for that month, but when Graham paid him the 500 bucks, Erdós scolded him: "I've been able to live a month without amphetamines, but I wasn't able to do any maths! I woke up in the morning and stayed the whole day in front of the paper, being unable to write anything. You have delayed the Mathematics one month.".

Erdós used to have caffeine tablets and used to say that "a mathematician is an invention that transforms coffee in theorems".

Well, for those of you who have resisted my poor English (sorry, it's not my mother tongue), if you are still interested in Erdós life, I recommend you to read this book: The Man Who Loved Only Numbers: The Story of Paul Erdös and the Search for Mathematical Truth. I've read it twice and I think is a fully enjoyable reading. Note that if you click the link that is contained in this comment, you'll obtain a discount in the book, it's the same link that is in the book's official web page.



Good writing. (5.00 / 1) (#266)
by rasactive on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 08:40:46 PM EST

But I think I should let you know what your mistakes were, because I think sometimes the reason people don't speak English well is because they are never corrected.

In the first paragraph, rather than "only backwards Gauss and Euler" should be "only behind Gauss and Euler." It appears to me that you used a strict dictionary translation.

In the last paragraph, "resisted my poor English" is probably not the best phrase. Maybe "got past" or "understood". Also, "I recommend you to read this book" has an awkward sound. Try "I recommend that you read this book." or just "I recommend you read this book." Also, it's "you'll obtain a discount on the book", not "you'll obtain a discount in the book".

Anyhow, I appreciate anyone who attempts to learn a language other than their own. It's a long process, and without help from others, it's a process that can never be completed.

[ Parent ]
OT (none / 0) (#308)
by kubalaa on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 06:00:52 AM EST

The problem with English is that there are always all these bloody phrases, words, and special rules to learn. German for example has a high barrier to entry with the grammar, but once you get past that it's pretty smooth sailing.

[ Parent ]
Corrections (none / 0) (#267)
by paugq on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 08:45:11 PM EST

Yes, I'm commenting myself :-)

"Graham" is not "Harold Graham", but "Ronald Graham". His homepage is http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/users/rgraham/, but he has no info there. There's a little more in his wife's page, http://www-cse.ucsd.edu/users/fan/

Also interesting is that there's another book biography of Paul Erdós, written by Bruce Schechter and called "My brain is open". An VHS about Erdós is also available in Amazon (zShop): N is a number



[ Parent ]
19 hours a day and 6 hours sleep? (none / 0) (#275)
by semantix on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 10:47:53 PM EST

Did Paul Erdos live in a different reality to ours where there were 25 hours in a day?

If he consistently did 19 hour days and got 6 hours a night sleep then what you said is impossible.

semantix

[ Parent ]

Sure, you laughed at math in high school (4.50 / 2) (#282)
by roystgnr on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 11:41:52 PM EST

But you didn't realize that the algebraic topologists had figured out how to sneak another hour into every day, did you?!

And don't even get me started on what the differential geometers have done to their sex lives...

[ Parent ]

26 hour days possible. (none / 0) (#395)
by bitgeek on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 11:57:36 AM EST


In fact, this is my normal cycle.  18 hours awake and 8 hours asleep.

Nobody said the rotation of the earth had to change-- it just means you get out of sync with everyone else, and then come back, and then get out of sync etc.

PITA when you have a regular job, but if you work for yourself, you get more done this way. (Plus if you work for yourself, none of those waking hours are "rest")

So, this is actually not that unreasonable-- the circadic rythm is an average, but many people deviate from it.  (And most people will if their environment is manipulated to throw it off.)
-- Between 1982 and 1988 US Income tax revenues doubled from approx. $500 Billion to $1 trillion due to Reagans tax cuts.
[ Parent ]

Different experiences with visuals (4.00 / 2) (#254)
by kallisti on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 07:37:11 PM EST

I most definitely saw "fake" things while on acid.

I had one of those "mind machines" things with flashing LEDS that you looked into for altered states, remember those? Anyway, I was in the back seat of a car looking at the power LED, just a basic little red light, when I saw little tendrils of light start to expand from it. Those tendrils arranged themselves into a chessboard with two sets of pieces that continuously morphed like some of Bill Plymptom's animations (watch The Tune to get the idea).

A similar experience was had by looking at night at a the light on top of a water tower several hundred feet away. I saw things building out from it, there was a vague impression of girders and I-beams which was building something coming from the tower towards me. Then it changed into a large dragon which opened its mouth and looked right at me. I was idly watching this when it occurred to me that normally people would be scared to see a several hundred foot dragon. As soon as I thought this, I became terrified and fled into the house.

These are exceptional, most of the time I only got false movements such as breathing walls and cords writhing like snakes, "tracers" which are like afterimages of fast movement, and cool multi-colored light halos.

I have no explanation why I got so much more visuals than most people, even my friends taking the same batch didn't get anything like my dragon.

But were you lucid? (none / 0) (#262)
by paraphenyl on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 08:03:58 PM EST

The important thing to ask is, did you believe this chessboard, dragon, etc were actually real, concrete objects?

This is the difference between LSD, psiloc(yb)in, et al and true hallucinogens (delerients like datura, belladonna and others).

A "hallucination" is when you see an object that you, without a doubt, take for reality. Furthermore, you are unable to distinguish these illusions from true objective reality.

Hallucinations are often dream-like: looking back on it later, you are amazed that you actually believed dogs were flying, trees were swaying like rubber, etc but at the time it seemed totally logical.


"...there is no vice in markets; there are only Freedom units roaming the landscape in pursuit of economic opportunity." -- Noam Chompsky
[ Anarchy Now! ]
[ Parent ]

Not really hallucinations, then (none / 0) (#270)
by kallisti on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 08:53:06 PM EST

I was aware at all times that I was tripping and thus didn't assume that anything I saw was real. The dragon and chessboard had a sort of unrealness about the edges, as if they were fading out, although the middle portion looked as real as anything could.

So by your definition, I guess they weren't real hallucinations. They were still pretty cool.

[ Parent ]

Your mind as a garden (4.50 / 2) (#261)
by Rainy on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 07:53:20 PM EST

Here's a nice way to look at drugs: your mind is a garden that covers a few acres but usually you just walk around in an area in center that's perhaps 100 square meters. If you do one drug, you go to another area, you may find a waterfall or a cedar patch; but you may find an ugly toxic wastes dump, too.

You gotta keep your body in a good shape to do drugs safely. I really think all the people who get fucked up on drugs are simply in no shape to do them.. But that goes for almost anyone. We were honed and tuned to be hunters-gatherers for millions of years; living in fresh air, constantly running or walking somewhere, eating grains, fruits, nuts, roots. Nowadays, our gardens are just too fucked up to walk through them - it's far too easy to break a leg. One redeeming quality of drugs is that they may help you understand just how fucked up your body and mind is; and prompt you to improve yourself. This is especially true for drugs like lsd, mescaline, shrooms, salvia divinorum. One time I smoked salvia and right after the trip I spent 45 minutes stretching my neck and back - they felt wooden compared to what I suddenly glimpsed they *ought* to be.

You know, if we were all healthy, we'd have drug education deeply embedded in our school process. We'd have kids in 3rd grade study basic math, reading, biology, sports, and drugs. There'd be one period devoted strictly to trying different drugs and doing something creative on them - drawing, making music, you know.

But, alas, our society as a whole is far from being healthy enough for them. It's sort of like a marine training course for an invalid. Too much, too fast, too powerful. We're weaklings, people!
--
Rainy "Collect all zero" Day

Drugs in school (4.25 / 4) (#303)
by cooldev on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 03:54:50 AM EST

You know, if we were all healthy, we'd have drug education deeply embedded in our school process. We'd have kids in 3rd grade study basic math, reading, biology, sports, and drugs. There'd be one period devoted strictly to trying different drugs and doing something creative on them - drawing, making music, you know.

The thing that bothers me is how drugs seem to become a central focus of users' lives. I saw it over and over again in college, sometimes with LSD and mushrooms, but usually with pot. Most of them ended up dropping out with a GPA around 0.7. This, and the fact that people turn into assholes when on pot (moreso than when drunk) is what kept me from ever trying drugs.

You know what they also all had in common? They all said shit like the above post and story where you have to have a "strong mind" (like them, of course) to do drugs without it having a negative effect. Oops!

Don't get me wrong, light drug usage in college or after is probably harmless if done responsibly and in the right context, but promoting drugs to that point where you're suggesting that grade-school age kids are prepared for their effects is completely irresponsible.



[ Parent ]
Drunk assholes (5.00 / 1) (#378)
by vectro on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 09:03:45 PM EST

I go to UC Santa Cruz (huge pot scene, though I don't partake), and have had pothead roommates. But I've never seen anyone be anything but mellow while baked.

On the other hand, not a week would go by when drunk students would be highly unpleasant to their neighbors.

“The problem with that definition is just that it's bullshit.” -- localroger
[ Parent ]

re: drugs in school (4.00 / 1) (#384)
by Rainy on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 10:50:41 PM EST

I don't turn into an asshole on pot! Some people do, not me though. If you're an asshole at heart, but you keep it well hidden 'cause, you know, otherwise people will dislike you, pot can bring it out in you.

Any drug is a filter, it filters your mind. It's like shining a light through colored glass - it changes its color but it can't create light if there's no light to begin with.

Re: GPA.. That's what concerns me about non-drug users: they're too obsessed with shit like GPA. Look at it this way.. let's say you go to college and you have a biology class and you study hard and long hours 'cause that's what's expected and rewarded. Then you do LSD and you realize that you're not going to be a biologist. (just for this example). You realize that the mere fact that something is expected of you is not sufficient reason to run somewhere like an idiot and do it. You realize that thought it may be rewarded, other things are rewarded too, and you may prefer those other things to whatever you're doing.

Or you might just get lazy and bummed out.

The point is that just looking from afar at someone and saying "they should stay on this path rather than go a different one" ain't right.

Drugs don't make the choices for you. They just show you different perspectives and in the end you're still in the driver's seat (which don't mean you won't crash into a wall, but that'd still be the choice *you* made.)

I'm not saying you have to have a "strong" mind to do drugs. There's no such thing. Some people are smarter, others are dumber, some have stronger will, others weaker. All of them can get fucked up on drugs, smart will do it in a very smart, sophisticated fashion, the dumb will do it their way, strong-willed will find a temptation to fit their will, and the weak-willed will jump on the first temptation they see. The thing that does matter is health. Not health in our pedestrian sense of not being strapped to the bed in a hospital, but in the first, foremost sense that your body and mind are clear, vibrant, free of any addiction (like food or TV or things). Then you can travel far and wide, physically and/or psychonautically.

It'd be absolutely irresponsible to give drugs to grade school kids today in our time and place. THey and their parents and environment, both physical and psychological are too fucked up to handle drugs. They're barely surviving as is.

All I said is that when we are all at last free in the fullest meaning of the word, it'll be absolutely safe and perhaps even good for us.
--
Rainy "Collect all zero" Day
[ Parent ]

"Be Here Now" (4.66 / 3) (#265)
by slur on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 08:40:21 PM EST

. . . by Ram Dass makes a great companion on an acid trip.

I have always experienced wonderful hallucinations on higher doses of LSD - 4 or more tabs. On one trip I spent a long time watching the vines that were growing outside my window, about half of which had died and dried up. The green, living vines seemed to roil and undulate and grow, while the brown dead vines seemed completely inert and "ordinary." From that time on I've been able to make out a distinct "aura" surrounding living things. Animals and plants both have a kind of glow, a "softness" that surrounds them.

What LSD does is very similar to what meditation does. It raises the levels of serotonin in the brain, which seems to have the effect of "broadening" consciousness to more areas of the brain. In other words, instead of only relating to the words running through his cerebrum the tripper finds himself identified with more of his brain activity, and hence more identified with the world around. Meditation is meant to remove the normal barriers to this broader consciousness by stripping away the defensive habits that keep us bound to our limited personalities and points of view. LSD shows us what lies behind the glass, darkly, but only a very short, vague glimpse.

The dark side of LSD is the same as the dark side of any form of Realization. If the individual lacks trust in the experience, is unprepared to let go, or has no context in which to place their new experience they risk a "psychotic break." Indeed, a lot of people have become obsessed with some "realization" or idea they had while in a high state and gotten completely stuck.

Some good general LSD guidelines...

  • Never take LSD in a place where you feel uncomfortable.
  • Never take LSD as an "escape."
  • Never mix LSD with stimulants (i.e., avoid LSD cut with speed).
  • Your thoughts are just another phenomenon within the field of your senses. Don't get caught up in their "deep truth."
  • Always carry plenty of water.
  • It's a good idea to take some Vitamin C after 6 hours or so, and when coming down.
  • If it's your first trip, be sure to have a mature guide who you trust. If you think of them as a "wise" person, all the better.
  • LSD will pleasantly surprise you, so be ready for pleasant surprises.


|
| slur was here
|

You can READ on acid? Not me! (nt) (none / 0) (#325)
by pyramid termite on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 09:41:58 AM EST


On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
[ Parent ]
Trip tips (none / 0) (#419)
by spiralx on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 06:19:11 AM EST

Never mix LSD with stimulants (i.e., avoid LSD cut with speed)

Why? The only difference I find is that that the amphetamine makes the acid take effect quicker and hit a bit harder... but there's not a vast amount of difference.

It's a good idea to take some Vitamin C after 6 hours or so, and when coming down.

Why? I keep hearing about Vitamin C and acid, but I've never come across any actual medical benefit of doing so.

I would also add the following...

* Eat before you do it. A few hours before you do it so your stomach settles. Because of all of the stimulation you get on acid your body can tense up a lot, and it helps if you're not hungry or too full up :)

You can eat on acid, it's just because you're hypersensitive it's a strange experience. Can be pleasent though, but generally I doubt the urge to eat will come up :)

  • Don't worry about it. There's so many myths about acid and taking it, and loads of them are crap. Things like people saying "don't look at yourself in a mirror"... bollocks.  Do what feels right at the time. Within reason of course ;)
  • Don't overplan your trip. But do plan to be somewhere where you can do stuff, even if that stuff is just moving from one room in the house to another.
  • Never underestimate the power a cup of tea or coffee will have to make you feel nice and calm things down. The whole ritual of normality is IMO the most effective way to take a breather.

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

Books Regarding Zen, Psychedelics, States of Being (4.33 / 3) (#280)
by shamanicAcid on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 11:29:31 PM EST

See also Zig Zag Zen: Buddhism and Psychedelics.

As for using psychedelics in general to expand consciousness, choose locations carefully. I prefer forests and streams >;}~. You *may* not want to trip @ work. Or maybe you do....

Other authors to consider are: Carlos Casteneda, Robert Anton Wilson, Jose Arguelles, and Terence K Mckenna.

I like Jose's work in Earth Ascending: An Illustrated Treatise on the Law Governing Whole Systems, as it explains states of consciousness across temporal historical frames on Planet Earth.

If you got some spare time, check out the The Deoxyribonucleic Hyperdimension for more info on states of being.

Also (none / 0) (#352)
by CyberQuog on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 02:04:33 PM EST

I would recommend checking out The Eight Circuits of Human Consciousness by Dr. Timothy Leary. It's a great theory on the different levels of human consciousness. Leary was a researcher of LSD working at Harvard in the late 60s.

[ Parent ]
Contolled use has positive social value (4.00 / 3) (#281)
by ip4noman on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 11:39:01 PM EST

"These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..." -- Timothy Leary
I took LSD for the first time in the Waukeegan, IL with 2 navy buddies in about 1983. We rented a motel room, watched MTV, walked to a restaurant (quite an experience), listened to power lines crackling and buzzing, talked about crazy shit, etc. It was a very fun experience.

One of the most interesting aspects to me was one particular memory. As we walked around, the sun began to come up. It was beautiful. The clouds looked like giant beasts which gently transformed into faces, etc. as we watched. Then, I looked around behind me, and it was still dark, stars, streetlights. Back front, sun, clouds, morning. Back again: dark, night. My perceptions were showing me 2 very different scenes, but my brain had trouble integrating them into a single consistant world. I felt if I was at the boundary of two completely different universes, but the whole time I knew it was just a perceptional trick.

It's just like Bill Hicks said. We need psychedelic experiences to teach us that our perceptions are just that. They are chemically mediated, our feelings and sensor pathways can be altered. It causes you to question how real external reality might be, consistant though it may seem.

PS: Bill Hicks' greatest joke on psychedelics ("Today, a young man on acid") is here: www.ip4noman.org/special/hicks_on_acid. Audio can be downloaded here.

--
Breaking Blue / Cognitive Liberty Airwaves
Sorry, forgot Ob ~. reference. (none / 0) (#284)
by ip4noman on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 11:44:28 PM EST

Hippy trippy people interested in these matters may want to check out Smokedot (yes, I bought some ads:). The K5 Ka5al sometimes is pretty uptight about such topics ;^)

--
Breaking Blue / Cognitive Liberty Airwaves
[ Parent ]
Call me strange. (4.16 / 6) (#285)
by /dev/trash on Tue Jun 25, 2002 at 11:46:00 PM EST

I've never tried any drug outside of alcohol. I'm pretty happy. When I'm bored I go for a walk or read or code. Maybe I was scared by the anti-drug stuff I heard in grade school. Maybe I was just scared that I'd get addicted, wither way I've had a pretty good life and I've never enhanced it with drugs.

---
Updated 02/20/2004
New Site
re: Call me strange. (none / 0) (#300)
by tifosi on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 03:37:49 AM EST

The truth is, you can get pretty fuc***up on alcohol also, it just depends what you try and in what quantities.
Because alcohol is sold in stores and we see in commercials doesn't make it more legit then any other drug in terms of health risk and etc.

[ Parent ]
Alcohol's not a drug... (none / 0) (#337)
by PenguinWrangler on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 11:28:45 AM EST

It's a drink!
"Information wants to be paid"
[ Parent ]
Beer is not a drug (none / 0) (#377)
by Rhodes on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 08:54:49 PM EST

It's a food. Alcohol is still a drug.

[ Parent ]
true. (none / 0) (#360)
by /dev/trash on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 05:36:55 PM EST

But I've never had the DT's or hallucinations from alcohol either. Plus I never started to drink til I was 20. Plus it's regulated.

---
Updated 02/20/2004
New Site
[ Parent ]
Alcohol is one of the worst (none / 0) (#376)
by Rhodes on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 08:53:39 PM EST

Alcohol is quite damaging, exceeded only by tobacco products. The physiological damage wrought by ethanol is felt in nearly every bodily organ, the liver and brain especially.

Most psychedelics (pot, LSD, mescaline, psibocibe (sp?) are significantly higher dose threshold- LSD from a physiological standpoint could be argued to be safer than water.)

[ Parent ]
I agree (none / 0) (#428)
by Leon Pron on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 03:33:47 PM EST

Certainly, the vast majority of those who have had satisfying, happy, lives have done so without the use of LSD. Nobody stated using LSD was a prerequisite to happiness or internal discovery. LSD can, however, facilitate self-discovery. It also can lead to everything from complete horror to unparalleled happiness. Use at your own discretion.

[ Parent ]
Some observations of this discussion. . . (3.66 / 3) (#291)
by Fantastic Lad on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 12:54:00 AM EST

Interesting. . .

I just finished reading through these many posts extolling the virtues of acid and I find myself compelled to write.

My observations. . .

1. Many, many people 'believe' in acid, while at the same time seem to shy away from and ridicule those who explore extended awareness without the use of drugs. I suspect this has to do with that the medicinal quotient of LSD does not cross any pre-set bounds as set forth by our industrial, technological reality which is very much threatened by such things as aura-seeing, magic and spiritualism.

2. I have discovered that many of the most potent approaches to sorcery and psychic growth recommend against the use of common psychedelic drugs except in some cases, as initial openers in the early days of one's learning, where the hold of mundane reality over the searcher's mind sometimes needs to be first broken. --After this point, typically, further growth demands the strictest level of health, strength and mental clarity during which drug use is considered most detrimental.

(Pardon me if I misquote; I don't have the book in front of me. . .)

Don Juan: "Devil's weed and peyote tabs are incredibly destructive, and you have almost certainly been damaged by their use. Devil's weed in particular is very destructive. You will notice that I have not had you use either in several years. The study of sorcery requires one's mind to be in a state of utmost sharpness and clarity"

Carlos: [Flabbergasted] "Then why, Don Juan, did you make me take so much of it?"

Don Juan: [Laughing] "Because you were so dumb! We had to continually blast you out of your mind because you were so stubborn in clinging to your old viewpoints!"

Another source [channeled] writes. . .
"Mescaline, of all the three, [the other two being LSD and marijuana] if done under controlled conditions - which are virtually impossible to find - this of them all would aid into the understandings of that which is psychic. For you see, this allow certain parts of the mind to break free from those set patterns; however, only for the shortest lengths of time. Any more than two weeks and find that this would be not "pro", would become "con". The approach to mescaline is mostly done through the chewing of peyote buttons. This, if done under controlled conditions by those that have experimented with them for a length of time, and follow on with the experimentation of other times, this would aid to some degree. however, only upon those that have had no psychic experiences under other effects, or those that are centered very strongly in the present and cannot allow their minds to rove in any other direction.

"As to LSD itself, find here that LSD is, of all of them, the one substance that slow the ability to be psychic. For there is oftimes the splitting of certain vitamin states in the body, and the centering of LSD into certain sections of the reticular brain. Those two coupled mean that the body go into a state of schizophrenia, and there is great loss of vitamin B in the body. If vitamin B in amounts corresponding to that which were lost were added to the body at the same time as LSD, would not have the same approach. However, will find there still would be the linkage with certain parts of the reticular that would cause somewhat of a problem in electrical flow, and that would slow down the body's ability to naturally strengthen."

Technological society likes to bottle everything and take away the work involved in achieving personal goals. --You can study martial arts for twenty years in the East, enabling you to put your fist through a wall. Or in the West, one can buy a gun at a hardware store and do the same thing in the same afternoon. LSD may be numbered among these bottled items.

I find it interesting that on such sites as K5, which can be noted for its somewhat higher level of open-mindedness, (as compared to other discussion & news forums), that LSD and similar have found acceptance. If one reverse-engineers the end result, I would suggest that perhaps some force out there would like to see so many agile minds prevented from growing too strong, and sees to this through the promotion of such chemicals.

Finally, I'll pay a nod toward Star Wars, (the first three films, not the sucky new ones): The path to the Dark Side is always easier, but always does it weaken and consume.

-Fantastic Lad

On drugs... (4.00 / 1) (#298)
by Elendale on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 02:37:29 AM EST

A Zen master once said (forgive me, i paraphrase- i'm too lazy to look the exact quote up)
"Alternate states of conciousness are not the purpose of Zen (meditation)- if you want that, drugs are easier and faster"
It's true, too.

-Elendale
---

When free speech is outlawed, only criminals will complain.


[ Parent ]
I remember.. (none / 0) (#311)
by tonyenkiducx on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:08:55 AM EST

...A book by call ecstasy rediscovered(Not to sure on the title). And the story of the author trekking over tibet, and sharing a pill with a tibettan(SP?) monk. The monk described it as "An awakening to what was a very familiar experience" and went on to describe how he had experienced "true enlightenment" without the need for the usual "mental preparation".

The quotes arent direct, but I think there right

Tony.
I see a planet where love is foremost, where war is none existant. A planet of peace, and a planet of understanding. I see a planet called utopia. And I see us invading that planet, because they'd never expect it
[ Parent ]
RIP (none / 0) (#320)
by synaesthesia on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 08:41:30 AM EST

The author was Nicholas Saunders, who tragically died in a car accident a few years ago.


Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]
Anecdotal evidence...what about negative effects? (3.00 / 12) (#292)
by MathJMendl on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 02:01:14 AM EST

Do you realize that several studies have been done that concluded that effects of drugs similar LSD can occur over periods of time and be greatly damaging, such as flashbacks, memory and concentration impairments, and driving impairments? Seriously, the human biology developed over many years to the point where chemicals are relatively balanced out. It is extremely risky to place substances that are known to be damaging inside of you, in addition to the fact that tolerance will develop to the substance, more will be required for the same effect due to equilibrium shifts, and more will cause further damage?

Plus, it affects your normal senses, so when you're off the drug you are severely damaged.

Try natural methods of heightening your senses and the long term benefits will be greater.

All your story and many other comments contain is anecdotal evidence suggesting that LSD can cause a positive influence on one's life. A positive life can much more easily be reached without drugs, and this is much, much safer.

I was highly surprised by the lack of anti-drug opinions on this site.

I never take anything in face value, but you shouldn't automatically reject an argument just because someone you dislike is stating it. It could be right.

Plus, scientific methods have proven to be much more accurate than anecdotal evidence. In an extreme example (or maybe not so extreme), tobacco companies used to advertise the health benefits of cigarettes, which now kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of people per year (I don't have direct statistics on this, but they do kill a lot of people).

For your throat's sake: SMOKE! (none / 0) (#318)
by priestess on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 08:29:14 AM EST

I haven't seen many people rejecting "Natural methods" here at all. Certainly I'd entirely advocate reading more and concentrating and even meditating. I don't see why you can't do both.

senses are severly damanged? Well, I guess I'm a little short sighted, but I'd put that down more to staring at books and CRT's the whole time instead of getting out often enough and looking at the horizon.

My senses don't feel damaged, let alone severly.

Of course science is better than anecdote. Trouble is it's difficult to do any science during prohibition.

        Pre.......
(The subject title comes from an old cigarette TV advert claiming cigarettes will cure your cough. Heh.)
----
My Mobile Phone Comic-books business
Robots!
[ Parent ]
Take a bit more of a broad perspective... (none / 0) (#346)
by Matt Oneiros on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 12:42:15 PM EST

pretty much everything damages you to a certain extent, wether it be your job or a saturday night out at the bar.

The trick is to sacrafice brain cells to a worthy cause.

Now I don't think LSD is particularly damaging in the grand scheme of things, of course there are people with underlying psychological disorders that will often times be exposed usually by EXTENSIVE psychedelic use, and that is what most of the after effects of LSD are.

Although a lot of people can engage in the reasonable use of LSD and be better people for it and never feel any ill effect, there are some people that either are already prone to mental disorder or are actually ABUSING LSD, these are the people that you hear about being shattered.

As for lasting perceptual effects, these are different for each person, if they happen at all.

But I'm sure that a seemingly intelligent person such as your self can understand that there is no point in trying to demonize an experience you never had. Acid's different for everyone, some people have a bad time, others don't, you can't know what either is like unless you've been on the otherside of the ocean.

Lobstery is not real
signed the cow
when stating that life is merely an illusion
and that what you love is all that's real
[ Parent ]

long term effects (none / 0) (#358)
by jafac on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 05:09:26 PM EST

Every experience, nay, every moment through time in which one's mind passes - irrevokably changes and alters one.  For the better?  For the worse?  depends on one's point of view.

[ Parent ]
Studies? (none / 0) (#365)
by FatHed on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 06:44:01 PM EST

Ahh studies, for everyone that says one thing, there is another that says the opposite. They are still scientific OPINIONS.

Intelligence is a matter of opinion.
[ Parent ]
What about "you're full of it" ? (none / 0) (#375)
by phybre187 on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 08:19:24 PM EST

Do you realize that several studies have been done that concluded that effects of drugs similar LSD can occur over periods of time and be greatly damaging, such as flashbacks, memory and concentration impairments, and driving impairments?

What studies? Define "damaging". Flashbacks AND memory impairments? Make up your mind. One is the exact opposite of the other. Flashbacks are a photorealistic recollection of an event that happened in the past. That's some ultra-tuned memory. And yes, LSD has been known to cause that. So explain how it also leads to memory impairment? And as far as driving impairment, that's got a "no duh" factor of about 9.5, since anything that alters your perception is going to impair your ability to deal with perception-sensitive events (like driving).

Seriously, the human biology developed over many years to the point where chemicals are relatively balanced out. It is extremely risky to place substances that are known to be damaging inside of you, in addition to the fact that tolerance will develop to the substance, more will be required for the same effect due to equilibrium shifts, and more will cause further damage?

Seriously, this statement is the result of a very poor understanding of biology, chemistry, and the difference between "tolerance" and "dependence". Fluctuations in chemical levels in the body has no direct correspondence to health or behavior. The system is more complex than that. A lot more complex. People that go to cocktail parties using terms like "dopamine" and "serotonin" in reference to their own mental state and health are full of shit, and totally clueless. "Known to be damaging" in reference to psychotropic drugs is a tenuous statement at best. You use the term "equilibrium shifts" almost as if you know what it means. Almost.

Plus, it affects your normal senses, so when you're off the drug you are severely damaged.

Non sequitur.

Try natural methods of heightening your senses and the long term benefits will be greater.

Yeah, because "natural" equals "good", right? Natural methods like... say... strychnos nux vomica? I mean, it's natural, right? And it's not as if there are no naturally occurring lysergic acid derivatives. LSA, Hawaiian baby woodrose.

A positive life can much more easily be reached without drugs, and this is much, much safer.

Ridiculous. First of all, now I know you didn't read the article, because the entire point was that safety is relative. Second, tell me what a "positive life" is, and then tell me what "drugs" are. You're generalizing to the point of absurdity.

I never take anything in face value, but you shouldn't automatically reject an argument just because someone you dislike is stating it. It could be right.

Like you automatically rejected the possibility that not all "drugs are bad" ? Yeah.

Plus, scientific methods have proven to be much more accurate than anecdotal evidence.

Explain to me how such a thing could be proven. Using scientific methods? But those are exactly the methods in question. You just made another bullshit statement. Not that I'm keeping count.

tobacco companies used to advertise the health benefits of cigarettes, which now kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of people per year (I don't have direct statistics on this, but they do kill a lot of people).

More people die every year of automobile accidents than from cigarettes. Let's ban cars. Plus nicotine is a poison. LSD is not. They aren't the same just because they're both "drugs". So don't use nicotine arguments if you're going to try to discredit LSD.

[ Parent ]
How about getting your facts straight (none / 0) (#387)
by rabbit on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 11:56:42 PM EST

First: LSD has been shown to be "non-toxic". Meaning that it is not poisonous in the way that say, cianide is. You could drink a glass of acid and still live. You might never return from the trip, but the acid will not damage any of your organs.

Second: most of the bad trip/nightmare stories you've heard have probably invloved at least one other drug. Do not mix drugs, or you're asking for trouble.

LSD does not affect your "normal" senses. Once it is out of the system - typically within 24 hours - it is out of your system. Now, if you've had a particulalry interesting trip, it may affect how you choose to interpret your normal senses, but you will not suddenly go colorblind or deaf or whatever from it.

Regarding Flashbacks and Memory loss: Those are both symptoms of post-traumatic-stress disorder. Interestingly, LSD can contribute to PTSD. The trick in avoiding it is knowing WTF you are doing before you dose. If drop 15 hits and go play in traffic, you're bound to have a traumatic experience that may haunt you for the rest of your life. If you're not of sound mind, you should probably not be dropping cid. Furthermore, the real world has plenty of opportunities for you to get traumatized, so lsd has no monopoly on it.

Try natural methods? Surely you must mean mushrooms. Mushrooms are great if you can stomach them.

While life without LSD is much safer - sufficient precautions and planning can be done such that an LSD experience has an acceptable level of risk, no greater than say, the aggregate risk of going grocery shopping. Possibly less dangerous.

Bungie jumping and skydiving are far more dangerous - and both are legal. Hmm.

The fact that it is an illegal substance means that doctors can not conduct clinical studies of its effects. So there is no real data on that subject - we must rely on anecdotal evidence.

One more thing: someone that has never done LSD cannot understand it's (potential)value and is therefore not qualified to tell people not to take it.

It's not for everyone, and I'd bet a dollar it's not for you.
-- I have desires that are not in accord with the status quo.
[ Parent ]

On mixing drugs... (none / 0) (#439)
by xee on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 01:41:42 AM EST

LSD mixes well with some other drugs. For example, LSD + Pot is a very good combo, as well as LSD + MDMA. The former is no harder to deal with than LSD alone, but the latter is not for the weak. LSD+MDMA can be a very rewarding experience in many ways beyond what LSD or MDMA alone can provide. It is dangerous and very hard on your body, though.


Proud to be a member.
[ Parent ]
Natural Methods? (none / 0) (#407)
by prolixity on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 08:00:58 PM EST

Here's a great natural method..

Get yo'self a coffee grinder and perhaps two hundred grams of Heavenly Blue variety morning glories..

Grind dem seeds up right gud.  Put seeds in yo' cold brew coffee maker..  let soak overnight.  

Shake.

Let soak some more.  

You'll end up with an ultra-concentrated Lysergic alkaloid cocktail, and a lot of fun.

Oh yeah:
"Do you realize that several studies have been done that concluded that effects of drugs similar LSD can occur over periods of time and be greatly damaging, such as flashbacks, memory and concentration impairments, and driving impairments?"

Did you realize that every single one of those studies you've mentioned (I guarantee it) were funded by the NIDA or the DEA?  Also, it has been proven by radiolabeled isotopes that LSD is reduced to undetectable levels in the system in less than 24 hours.

Flashbacks are the result of PTSD.. not the drug.  

"All your story and many other comments contain is anecdotal evidence suggesting that LSD can cause a positive influence on one's life. A positive life can much more easily be reached without drugs, and this is much, much safer."

Bullshit.  A non-user and a drug-user will experience the same difficulty in achieving a postive lifestyle.  Drug use is much less a factor than racio/socio-economic background (which may contribute to drug use).

"I was highly surprised by the lack of anti-drug opinions on this site."

I think you'll find that same dearth of anti-drug propaganda in any educated circle.

"Plus, it affects your normal senses, so when you're off the drug you are severely damaged."

What?!?  Jesus almighty..  so does fucking REM sleep..

"I never take anything in face value, but you shouldn't automatically reject an argument just because someone you dislike is stating it. It could be right."

I don't dislike you..  you're just a moron.

prolix
Bah!
[ Parent ]

LSD's "inventor" (3.75 / 4) (#297)
by Irobot on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 02:37:11 AM EST

I'm surprised I haven't seen any reference for the "inventor" of LSD, Albert Hoffman. Perhaps there were some buried in the comments that I missed. A friend of mine used to call taking acid "bicycle riding" - Dr. Hoffman, not knowing what the drug would do, was riding home on his bicycle when it kicked in. Anyway:

The Albert Hoffman Institute
LSD - My Problem Child (the book about LSD by Dr. Hoffman)

Irobot

"Life is so unlike theory." -- Anthony Trollope
Irobot

The one important thing I have learned over the years is the difference between taking one's work seriously and taking one's self seriously. The first is imperative and the second is disastrous. -- Margot Fonteyn

LSD and emergence.. (3.00 / 5) (#312)
by Mr Tom on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:12:55 AM EST

One of the great things about LSD is the exponential rate at which weirdness happens. I once threw a cracking house party at which a good third of the guests (some 30ish people) were tripping. The rate at which weird, random, hilarious, trippy, bizarre stuff happened was incredible. People would just "clue-in" to totally random stuff, but at the same time. Great fun. :-)

Course, if you've never done LSD, having it explained to you is like being written a postcard - you'll never know what that place is like until you pay it a visit.

Oh, and one of the important things with acid is to follow the rules. Everyone's rules are different - here are mine:

* Have a shower beforehand

* Wear loose clothing

* Have plenty of soft cuddly things/people around you

* Be with someone that's done acid before.

* Remember to say to yourself "Wow, that's cool!" on a regular basis.

* Do not be around total strangers. (I can't think of a worse place to trip than in a nightclub, fr'instance)

* Do stuff! Juggling on acid is an amazing sight.

* Be with someone that can give backrubs.

* Remember the hitchiker's guide: Don't panic. :-)


-- Mr_Tom<at>gmx.co.uk

I am a consultant. My job is to make your job redundant.

yeah, i hear ya... (3.00 / 1) (#331)
by trener on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 10:36:41 AM EST

* Have a shower beforehand

distance yourself from that whole hippy vibe.

[ Parent ]
My favorite Ram Dass LSD story (3.00 / 1) (#326)
by billstclair on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 09:45:25 AM EST

In one of Ram Dass' books, don't remember which, he told a story about his guru, Neem Karoli Baba, aka Maharaji. Ram Dass tried many times to give LSD to Maharaji. Nothing ever happenned. But he had some doubt that the old man was really swallowing the tabs. So the next time Ram Dass gave a tab to Maharaji, the guru made a show of placing it on his tongue and carefully swallowing.

A short while later, Maharaji went wild, started acting crazy. Ram Dass was thinking, "What have I done to this poor old man?" Maharaji came immediately back to his senses and told Ram Dass, "They knew about this stuff a thousand years ago. If you take it in a meditative mood, you can visit Jesus. But after two hours, you have to come back. Wouldn't it be better to BE Jesus?"


Trip Receptacles MP3 (4.00 / 2) (#329)
by borys on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 10:00:06 AM EST

"Imagine that you had unfettered access to nine hours of commercial-free airtime on a major FM radio station with a 60,000 watt signal covering a third of California. What kind of material would you broadcast? Well, what else? Why, you'd enthusiastically promote the extensive use of powerful psychedelic drugs, obviously!"

"So join us, won't you, (us being Don Joyce, of the Negativland noise collective, and myself, the Professor), and our panel of entheogenic experts-a- la-audio-appropriation, including Stanislav Grof, Alexander (Sasha) Shulgin, Timothy Leary, Terence McKenna, Albert Hoffman, Rick Strassman, Fritjof Capra, Andrew Weil, D.M. Turner and many others, as we light the trip fantastic and explore the science of psychedelics, pharmacology and consciousness technology.We also take numerous phone calls and questions from the listening audience, from whom we've solicited personal trip report experiences throughout the broadcast. Some callers even went so far as to engage in some simultaneous extra-curricular entheogenic activities. I know I did!"

http://www.nvo.com/cd/trip/

Selfish . . . (2.62 / 8) (#351)
by idou on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 01:52:20 PM EST

Look . . . it`s great that you shared your experience and all, but I think it is very immature that you recommend it to others.

Here`s one for your greatly EXPANDED mind to ponder: What if your parents had been as selfish as you? Tripped out on your first decade of life, maybe? Think you would feel the same way about it then, would ya`? Good, then please explain it to my neice who`s father has been gone her first 9 years of life due to his enlightening journeys. Explain that the poverty and abandonment has all been part of some "better good," because I, for sure, can't.

I am not saying that your experience wasn't real and almighty, but we don't just appear out of thin air when we are born. We are born into a bondage of family relationships, responsibilities, and duties that no amount of drugs can erase. You claim enlightenment, but I think the real enlightenment comes from understanding that we are only one link in a long chain of moral struggles and noble sacrifices that made possible each individual`s existence.

If you want to waste your time chasing self induced mirages in your own brain . . . fine, I'll try to make drugs legal so that you can reach your ultimate destination with more haste. However, don't give advice to others. . . Advice should be given by the selfless chumps who made your existence possible, not by the self centered, engulfed in their own delusions.

What? (4.00 / 2) (#357)
by McDick on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 04:18:34 PM EST

I disagree with your comment. You might as well write a condemning article about the sun because your aunt died of cancer. The article was not intended to convey a "Get wasted and destroy yourself and your family with a drug addiction." message. Sure you might want to say, "make sure to wear at least SPF30 when heading out into the sun" or in tune with the article "moderation in all things", but that does not make the inital experience less enlightening.

I really dislike it when people hold selflessness above selfishness. As we have seen throughout history, the major breakthroughs that save and enhance humanity are made by those who are COMPLETELY selfish in their desires. Those who will devote their entire existance to experiments or inventions not because they wanted money/power/fame, but because it is what they love. Would it have been better if Edward Jenner would have spent more time with his daughter for the first 9 years of her life instead of pursuing a vaccine for smallpox? Or would it have been better for Graham Bell to have done more jury duty instead of inventing? Would we still be where we are if Einstein donated more time down at the local homeless shelter? Perhaps the world would be better off if they were all like Mother Teressa? Not really providing a cure for anything, just treating the symptoms? How is that really helping? It is concidered "nice", and people around you will think better of you, but you are not doing anything to really help in the long run.

Selflessness is just that, "without a self". No identity, no meaning, just bland mediocrity. So no, I would not, could not, and should not take advice from any selfless human being. It is the "selfish" and "self-centered" people that should give advice.

McD

McDick Technologist
[ Parent ]

Okay . . . using your language . . . (2.50 / 2) (#363)
by idou on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 06:31:58 PM EST

"Selflessness is just that, 'without a self'."

Unless you think all human traits are innate, identity is a result of social interaction. Friends, family, get the point? Most, if not all, drugs tend to hurt, obstruct, even destroy such relationships. Consequence? Decreased identity. Decreased self.

I am, no doubt, in debt to those who have sacrificed their families for a cause they deemed worthy, but I am in even more debt to those who have not.

Why do people assume that the best contributions to humanity have come from individuals so sensational they get all the press?

My personal favorite "inventor" is a Fin by the name of Linus Torvalds. Family guy . . . doesn't ramble much. I owe him a lot. . . Say he is an exception? There are thousands of other Open Source hackers like him, many have families they haven't had to abandon to  enjoy their passion . . .

[ Parent ]

I would tend to disagree (4.00 / 1) (#373)
by phybre187 on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:40:26 PM EST

[This is all opinion. Any similarity to this data and facts is purely coincidental]

Identity is not a result of social interaction exclusively. That provides the raw data with which one defines their identity. It is one's ability to assess their own state of being, supplemented with social interaction, that creates the identity. The mind is not a tabula rasa as you wish to believe.

Most, if not all, drugs tend to hurt, obstruct, even destroy such relationships.

Utter bullshit. There is absolutely no way to give credibility to such a canned statement. It's not true just because your DARE officer said so. In the wrong hands, shoelaces can be deadly weapons. Blame the owner of the hand, not the shoelace. In my own experience, drugs tend to have no direct effect on social relationships whatsoever, unless the individual in question is predisposed towards self-destructive behavior when his perception of the world changes. It's a result of living a sheltered life. Welcome to suburban USA. Such people lack the necessary ability to adapt their understanding of reality when their perception changes. And don't even turn this into a Descartes vs Kant discussion.

I am, no doubt, in debt to those who have sacrificed their families for a cause they deemed worthy, but I am in even more debt to those who have not.

Meanwhile, I believe that I owe nothing to "those that sacrificed their families for a cause they deemed worthy". You're under the mistaken impression that altruism exists as the opposite to selfishness. It doesn't. There's no such thing as an unselfish motive. For instance, your motive for making these posts is to perpetuate your broken value system that reeks of pinko bullshit. My motive for the replies is that I immensely hate pinko bullshit, and anyone who can, in good conscience, perpetuate that point of view as an example to be followed. Your niece's father DID have an obligation to her, and he abandoned it (or so I'm lead to believe by what little you've said of it). Get over it. You're suffering vicariously through your niece.

It may amaze you, but not everyone thinks family is the most important thing in life. Imagine that! Someone with a different perception of reality than yours. Are you so hopeless that you can do nothing but attack people who don't value the same things you do? In case you're thinking "hypocrite" right now, you'll note that that isn't what I'm doing. I'm just pointing out that you're preaching that people shouldn't preach, and that everyone who listens to the author of the above article is doomed to follow in the footsteps of your aloof brother(-in-law?).

You might find that it's easier to think and type at the same time if you set down all that emotional baggage first.

[ Parent ]
mmm . . . (1.00 / 2) (#385)
by idou on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 11:12:10 PM EST

 . . . I took your advice and . . . I am enlightened . . . my hands . . . they're so BIG . . . thank you magic fairy

[ Parent ]
Again. . .what? (none / 0) (#438)
by McDick on Mon Jul 01, 2002 at 02:34:41 PM EST

Notice I did not say "Sacrificing family is worthy of praise" I specifically stated that anyone who will devote their entire life to what they love is selfish and worthy of much praise. If Linus Torvalds is the only inventor you have to thank then I can no longer argue with you. Logic has completely escaped you. McD

McDick Technologist
[ Parent ]
Nice (none / 0) (#364)
by FatHed on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 06:39:36 PM EST

Great Article.

Everyone Stop Being Nice, it's offensive. Your niceness can lead to me not learning and experiencing life on my own. It was "nice" to make prohibition happen, since drinking damages your body, we were only trying to be nice and safe your life. Well, piss off, it's MY life. If I do something that infringes on your rights, let me know, but do not assume that I want the safety you desire. Risks are what make life exciting.

Intelligence is a matter of opinion.
[ Parent ]
Ah (offtopic) (5.00 / 1) (#371)
by phybre187 on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:17:18 PM EST

Yes, you should censor his recommendations instead of ignoring them, and you should offer your own advice about not giving advice to others, thus making yourself look like the biggest jackass this side of <landmark near you>.

And speaking of "engulfed in their own delusions"... your brother(-in-law?) sounds like the kind of person who would have found any excuse to abandon his responsibilities. If you're ignorant about the psychological effects of LSD, I'll clue you in: LSD doesn't create mental problems, it makes the ones that already exist more apparent. So maybe you're mad that you didn't help him (or his daughter) in time (or couldn't, depending on circumstances), and now you're crusading to "prevent others from making the same mistake". Unfortunately, you don't have the moral right to prevent others from doing anything that doesn't threaten your safety, health, or property.

So keep pretending you're the morally superior one here.

You're really one to talk about immaturity. Pah.

[ Parent ]

Wow (4.00 / 1) (#382)
by idou on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 10:41:33 PM EST

Gee . . .  and for all these years I thought that hard work and a vast appetite for knowledge would be the key to my enlightenment. When actually, all I had to do is use my allowance to get a magical potion.

Okay . . . enlightenment = magical potion . . . let me write that . . . down . . . there.

You know, I really do wish the "perfect drug" gets created, legalized, and mass produced so that the portion of the population that wants to could stay "enlightened" all the time and never come back to bother the rest of us about their "big hands" and "profound experiences." I don't care what you subject your brain, or what you think about LSD. Just thought I might post something for the 12 year old who might be reading posts here, who, by the way, DOES have an excuse not to know better. In case you were too enlightened notice, I wasn't posting for your sake.

Have a nice li. . . er, "trip."  

[ Parent ]

It's not a magic potion... (5.00 / 1) (#386)
by rabbit on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 11:36:32 PM EST

and it's clearly not for you.

Look, enlightenment is neither promised nor guaranteed when you drop acid. What is "promised" is that you'll have strange mental and physical sensations. That is all.

What you do with that experience is up to you. Some people drop acid and they think that it's "fun". They're not enlightened by it, and they don't pretend to be. Some people drop acid and use it as a tool to examine themselves and their world around them, and the contrast in such perceptions provided by LSD. If this makes them "enlightened", fine. But odds are, they were "enlightened" before they dropped acid, unless they dropped 15 hits and had such a life changing experience that "everything" changed. In any case, such enlightenment is premature. Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken. Dropping acid doesn't turn you into a mystical yogi.

It's not a magic potion - it's just another tool to expand and explore the mind. Surely you don't scoff at people who do meditation for the same reason do you? Because you know what? There are just as many flunkies, fuckups and hucksters doing the whole new agey meditation thing as there are wannabe hippies dropping acid and claiming to see god.
-- I have desires that are not in accord with the status quo.
[ Parent ]

poor you (5.00 / 1) (#388)
by majik on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 04:55:59 AM EST

you have no idea. you're like the guy in plato's republic... chillin in your cave. its like anything else. use it correctly, and it will show you things you would otherwise never see. its a beautiful world, full of amazing insights and feelings. i advocate CONTROL of use, not abuse. sorry you know people who couldn't handle it. but hey just cause some people can't drive stick, does that mean all non-automatic vehicles should be banned? or that no one should try to drive them?
Funky fried chickens - they're what's for dinner
[ Parent ]
Universal Truth (1.00 / 1) (#414)
by idou on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 02:39:58 AM EST

Just for the record, I think all drugs should be legalized
(with a minimum age restriction, of course). There is no law about
thrusting a screwdriver into your brain, so why should there be
a law against dropping acid?

However, LSD is a drug, and drugs are used to  manipulate the
body's chemistry. That is it . . .  You think you have found some
greater truth, I say you have taken a drug that manipulates your
brain's chemistry in a way that gives you the same euphoria that
finding such a truth gives a person. You have not discovered a
universal truth but a universal feeling. However, there is no
meaning behind this feeling, because it is drug induced. I think you
have only made your cave deeper, because you have brightened
the fire that casts shadows to a level comparable to the sun. How
will you ever know which is which?

Humans are capable of rational thought, but we still use emotions
to value and appreciate those thoughts. It is feeling and passion
that motivates are most profound ideas and creativity. You have
rewarded yourself without the ideas and creativity, so you are left
admiring your ability to suck on acid saturated bits of paper.

The normal world is dull and colorless, definitely no "trip." But
without that dull background to work on, our lives would be
eclipsed, left wayside to decay as we sit back and enjoy the view.
Your choice, I say, but let's call it what it is and put an end to this
attempt to manifest what was never there. You are blinding your eyes
with drugs, not with truth.

[ Parent ]

I don't think.. (4.00 / 1) (#431)
by phybre187 on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 08:17:20 PM EST

..you're looking at this with a useful perspective. This is how I see it:

The mind has two basic metaphysic parts. The Imagination (unconscious mind, subconscious, whatever you like calling it) creates patterns. The Consciousness determines whether or not patterns it receives are useful, and stores them if so. It also receives patterns from the senses. It can also derive new patterns purely from existing ones. When I say 'patterns' you can assume I mean what Hofstadter calls 'symbols' or what Dawkins calls 'memes'. A basic unit of thought. Patterns are associated not with the acquisition of new information, but with possible ways existing information can be linked together. After all, understanding isn't a measure of how many facts you know. Any ingested substance that alters sensory perception, or causes the Imagination to work overtime is a unique source of patterns. You experience all this strange stuff when you do LSD, you enjoy it as it happens (or not, if it's a bad trip) and after you return to a state of sound mind, you try to remember and assimilate all that data. No, the drug doesn't give you enlightenment. But a pattern you discover while on LSD may help you understand something you've been trying to understand. And understanding is enlightenment. One thing is certain: If you want to understand something, or become enlightened about something, it's not going to happen if you don't do something new and unique. It's akin to the belief that when one is frustrated with a problem they can't solve, the solution comes promptly after the person sets their mind to unrelated things, or "takes a break". No, nothing is a magic formula to any end. The important thing is that it throws you off your status quo.

[ Parent ]

This seems apropos (none / 0) (#400)
by epepke on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 02:08:51 PM EST

From Greg Egan's Schild's Ladder:

Transcendence was a content-free word left over from religion, but in some moribund planetary cultures it had come to refer to a mythical process of mental restructuring tat would result in vastly greater intelligence and a boundless cornucopia of hazy superpowers--if only the details could be perfected, preferably by someone else. It was probably an appealing notion if you were so lazy that you'd never actually learned anything about the universe you inhabited, and couldn't quite conceive of putting in the effort to do so: this magical cargo of transmogrification was sure to come along eventually, and render the need superfluous.


The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.--Terry Pratchett


[ Parent ]
Control freaks and drugs (none / 0) (#440)
by Underground Panther on Sun Aug 04, 2002 at 12:04:39 PM EST

Ok If you want to ingest a psychedelic substance make sure you aren't going to harm others.Have trusted freinds help you stay"contained"That's common sense.

What gets me is with LSD,Pot and the "evil" psychedelics is three things our bottom to top hierarchical money based  culture needs to keep those in power in power is undermined.
Obedience, culture bound perception and the motivations to go to war.

#1 obedience, if you do something"taboo: try it and no harm is done you question why the thing is forbidden.Especially if it helped you,personally or was fun.The rule of law is no longer so absolute and monolythic.Some of the hypnotic extortion  unquestionable belief in values put forth by the scibbles of people in robes called of "THE LAW" is diminished in power.In other words you DOUBT the powers that be and thier holy writ.

#2Culture bound perception.
Cultural perceptions in a top down hiearchy are formed to serve the hierarchy function,Taking a drug that lets you step out of social conditioning that is applied to a self from cradle to grave shows you you need not believe what society dictates as"truth" or "nessecity".
You doubt the need for human society as it IS presented to you.
You feel freed up from the fear of other's thoughts enough to think of deep issues in alternative or artistic ways and may present ideas in ways that are"not with the program" of those in power.This is because you think with different prioritries than the status quo created to benifiet self created self serving power structures in society..This erodes the psychological /belief controls given to you from authority holding your perception and thoughts into a certain range of limits that serve the powers that be on top.The questions asked and creative thoughts had when you are free of thought restraints of dominated ego, silenced by true self can undermine the appearance of absolute truth and legitamacy of those in corporate social rulership.It also scares the insecure and dependant stuck in learned helplessness and obedience as thier way of feeling secure.

# 3Motivation to go to war

Pot and acid are are drugs that really don't incite violence as predictably like alchohol, white bread or sugar can.

Booze is legal because it does not inhibit violence like pot does.Motivating someone high to go to war would be VERY hard.People on pot would rather chill out and just feel good.Pot is NOT addictive.People on booze loose inhibitions and the depressant effect is not always good for unhappy people who inhibit how they resent the domination and extortion that lies just undsder the surface of our"free" country.They resent having to work resent thier families and life itself.Booze is VERY addictive.
Who would be sick enough to  force someone to kill someone on acid trip to defend status or an economy? Could you even imagine what a horrific thing that would do to human kinds mind and trust in such an open state of being?The experince of being forced to murder on acid may be impossible considering the spiritual state  of mind and the connectivity of thought and experinces it creates.LSD spawned the idea make love,not war.Acid is hated by the hawkish parts of corporate religious america precisely because it is not about obedience, falling in line or getting with THIER program and killing anything that stands in the way of THIER domination..

Just my thoughts on this.

[ Parent ]

Censor (none / 0) (#389)
by FatHed on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 05:03:29 AM EST

That's a pretty strong word.

The point of my post; don't work to create laws because something bad happened to you, it doesn't happen to everyone, so don't "censor" what everyone can do, which is what laws against recreational drugs do. Drugs can do damage to your body, there is no doubting that, but alcohol is legal. There are prescription drugs that have a greater effect on you and your personality then either LSD or pot, they are legal because the good they can cause out ways the bad, and the rather large black market trade of prescription drugs for recreational use hasn't hit the press en masse. Marijuana is a drug that does have medical uses, yet we as a society will not even allow it to be legal for any reason, our disdain for drugs deemed illegal is astonishing. We seem to want to ruin peoples lives instead trying to help the homeless, poor, un-nourished, massacres, or displaced cultures. Why work to help better peoples lives through peaceful means, instead of having a war and throwing civilians in jail for a simple recreational drug.

Instead, Americans seem to think that democracy is a way for them to change society as they see fit, and with a enough money it is possible. I am being very negative, and I apologize to anyone that is offended by my opinion. The Freedom Corps, which I think is dangerously close to Starship Troopers, is a great noble effort. I am glad that tax money is going to programs to help spur patriotism. I also cherish the fact that it is not mandatory.

Intelligence is a matter of opinion.
[ Parent ]
hit a nerve, eh idou? (none / 0) (#374)
by mediapunk on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 07:40:31 PM EST

While I get the sense you're just looking for a fight, I can't risk the possibility that you actually mean what you say, idou.. I guess it's just too easy and fun to bash you, and I can't resist! You're so obviously emotionally damaged due to your experience with your niece's father that it seems almost too ignorant to be true. Is anybody on K5 really this emotionally transparent? I thought this was the place for the smart people!

Nahh.. I conclude that your attitude must be fake and that you're trolling.. Let us end it here :)

[ Parent ]

Psst . . . (none / 0) (#383)
by idou on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 10:47:54 PM EST

 . . . Mediapunk . . .

I have a secret . . . you caught on to me . . .

You see, there is a reason I appear so emotionally transparent . . . I . . .

I . . . am not really, real. I'm . . .

your hallucination . . .

turn around.

[ Parent ]

Recommend? (none / 0) (#412)
by mguercio on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 12:45:13 AM EST

I don't see any words recommending it to anyone. What I see is someone's experiences with LSD and the information for someone who entitled to make a choice to experiment with it or not.
The definition of "high achievment" is not the wisdom that you have attained yourself, but the wisdom you can share with others.
[ Parent ]
Candyland (4.66 / 3) (#355)
by MoonVine on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 03:10:45 PM EST


Great topic.

I first hit acid at a rave years ago. It was the most amazing , acid, experience I have ever had. Everything was as they told me, (my very experienced bf told me what to expect). Really surreal and otherworldly. I also did everything they told me not to do. I went swimming. I looked at myself in the mirror for very long periods of times... I crashed pretty much unscathed. I think that night I felt like Aphrodite and Venus all in one. It was beautiful. Except for the part of trying to swim underwater. My boyfriend at the time had to pull me out because he got nervous. I don't know, I felt one with the ocean and all those trippy feelings... maybe I would have drowned, who knows? The beach was so lovely, everything around spelled passion and intense spirituality. That was my experience, and my reflections looking back, make me now thankful for my innocence of spirit at the time. It was pure. i don't know how else to describe it. And it only soldified my feelings for my bf. I saw him as a messenger from the sky, my consort in the great grand crazy pantomime of the universe.

The second time was at an amusement park in Ohio called Cedar Point. I did double the dosage than my 6'3" bf, (the same one), and i'm 5'4",and did not pay heed to any of his admonitions. Well because I can be pretty reckless and I have a moronic tendencey to run on extremes. Plus I was a badass. "whaever". Stupid girl. So well, the rides were amazing. There was this one roller coaster right next to Lake Erie. I thought it was an ocean and Posidon was going to jump out and whisk me away. It was such a rush. Then all these ugly things started to happen. I wrote a poem called Demon Drop based on the ride and experience. Needless to say, my relationship with my "angel" simmered to a slow flame and died out. But the trip did leave a residual effect on my psyche. I can't believe i am sharing all this. (oh, well. I'm just in a mood, so I'll go with it). So I get back home,and months later I am sitting in the historic area, where I used to bike to everyday, and start noticing all these freaky things. Like people no one else could see, and ghosts. And ghosts that would stalk me. It was wigging me out. I had heard that acid trips can sometimes introduce outside elements into your subconsciousness and can literally make one go bonkers. I figured something like that was happening to me. (Having started college as a theatre major, I am very much the quintessential drama queen). So, added to my extreme personality, and highly sensitive intuition, I decreed that I was indeed going to go ko-koo if something didn't happen. I became paranoid about everything. Mind, you, in reality, it was so subtle it was hardly noticable. But with me, I have the darndest power to turn even ant farms into the Cascade Mountains... So well, the second trip was definietely a bad one. It made me leary and weary of chemical substances. Watching Ren and Stimpy at five in the morning was fun though. I never laughed so much in my life. But Faulkner's Vardaman in As I Lay Dying, laughed all the way to the looney bin. So much for laughing ; ) I felt really strange and uncharacteristically anxious, I didn't know what was happening and if it was ever going to stop.

The last time I tripped on acid was intended to directly counteract the previous hellish trip. It worked. Except now everytime I go downtown, I see candyland. Cartoon colors, and candied apple streets. I had a fun time. It was done with my best friend who was just coming out of the closet. I am not sure if he had a good trip or not because he kept talking about wanting to cut his ding dong off. He's fine now, of course, but I always wondered whether it was shelfish of me not to want to get into a deeply pschological analysis with him on the value of a penis and society's ugly homophobic attitude, on acid?! I just wanted to play in the candyland streets, and run wild and free. Since my attitudes can be very contagious, he took to the same joie de vivre and we had a blast. Literally. It was years ago. Maybe seven. So I guess it worked, and i stopped having those weird paranoid events, and guess it was pretty much back to my normal crazy preoccupied states, yet I know that "You can never go home again..."

Would I recommend acid to anyone? Even for a night as the supreme emperor of candyland? No. I was lucky. The thing about drugs is that it leaves you mismanaged and out of control. But then people are abound to be like me, who must try things for themselves. Was it not Einstien who said,
"Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not so sure about the universe."

Stuff (5.00 / 1) (#415)
by spiralx on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 05:32:59 AM EST

Things like residual hallucinations (most usually seen as the gridding effect you get on everything while tripping) are a purely psychological effect... your brain coping with a much more intense experience than it's used to. They almost always fade over time once you stop taking acid.

My ex when we used to do a lot of acid had this thing about "unnecessary surgery", truly a grim expression. Not sure where it came from, but thankfully she never got past the talking stage :)

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

A word of cautious advice (4.00 / 2) (#361)
by jafac on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 05:54:48 PM EST

From experience:
An acid trip lasts anywhere from about 6 to 12 hours. Usually about 8.  During that time, some people (myself included) can get a feeling like - god, when will it end?  I've had my jollies, I've seen the mystical center of the web of time, now I'm done, I just want to be back to normal.  Often an hour or two into the trip.

I'm just saying, be prepared to be patient, and let it run it's course.  And above all, don't panic.  I think that this is probably why some of the others have said not to mix LSD with stimulants.  It makes you anxious.

Shrooms tend to not last as long, so maybe try those first.

Four Questions. Damn dualism. (3.50 / 2) (#392)
by rapha on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 11:34:15 AM EST

Hi tuj,

I think I've got four questions to you:

  1.) In what 'stat of mind' have you been when
      writing this article? This is not meant as
      a provocation at all, but rather emerges
      from curiosity, just as the following three
      questions will.

  2.) Are you christian? If yes, how have you
      become christian? If no, do you consider
      yourself belong to any religion at all?
      Which? How have you come there?

  3.) What are you currently doing for a living?

  4.) Have you had other occupations before that
      throughout your life? Which?

Well, that's it :-)

Cheers, Raphael


---
NIETS IS ONMOGELIJK!

re:Four Questions. Damn dualism (none / 0) (#432)
by tuj on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 11:06:50 PM EST

1:  not under the influence of any drug.  otherwise, reflective.  This story was originally something I wrote as an email to two close friends of mine.

2:  raised Christian; atheist since 12.  LSD raised in me the possibility of a 'connectedness' of everything (but nothing I'd call 'religious').

3:  developer (and student)

4:  grocery peon, operator, electrician assistant, library assistant, computer technician

Sorry if those are rather terse answers.  I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for; feel free to email me.


[ Parent ]

Some notes on LSD (4.50 / 4) (#393)
by bitgeek on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 11:41:28 AM EST

Thanks for posting this wonderful article.  LSD is a drug that is quite misunderstood, and with the truckloads of deliberate misinformation out there, some honesty is valued.

While a high schooler, before experimenting with any drugs I went and read the medical and scientific journals about them.  I wanted the real info.  There was a jouranl dedicated to drugs in the 60s called the "Journal of Psychadelics" or the "American Journal of Psychadelics" which is worth checking out if you're considering such experimentation-- scientific results and information from before polticialy correctness made anything other than complete condemnation unacceptable.

Some points of fact that I don't think people who have not investigated LSD recognize.

1.  There is no lethal dose of LSD.  There are no known cases of people using LSD and thinking they can fly (there are known cases of PCP doing this.)  The toxicity of the drug was checked, and was not found.  A good book to read on the subject is "LSD my problem child" by albert hoffman, the discoverer of the drug.

2.  There is no such thing as an LSD chemical flashback.  Again, PCP can be stored in fatty tissue and come back to the bloodstream much later.  LSD however exits the system within an hour of ingestion, and you cannot have a chemical flashback.  (Any significant experience, such as a car wreck or losing your virginity can cause psychological flashbacks where you remember the experience and dewll on it, and LSD can cause these, of course, but they are not dangerous.)

3.  IF you've gone past that point of "This was fun, but I'm tired now, I'm ready for it to end" don't eat breakfast (or a big meal).  Often the feeling of "coming down" is merely your body running out of short term energy to burn, and injesting food starts it back up again. Orange Juice seemed to be the most effective.  So if you're coming down and want to start it up again, OJ is a good way to go.

4. The drug was discovered while looking for a pregnancy support drug that was more potent, and thus it does cause tightening of the abdominal muscles, something to be aware of before you experience it. LSA was in wide use for this purpose during WWII.

5. LSD-25 works by depleting the seratonin levels in  your brain.  This is what takes 12 hours to dissipate (or less sometimes)...as I said the drug is gone quickly.  The modern slate of anti-depressants affect seretonin levels as well, specifically how they are managed by the brain.  It is quite likely that those with depression due to chemistry (As opposed to the loss of a loved one) will find LSD useful in treating the depression.  The effect can last up to a month before the brain chemistry re-asserts itself into a non-standard fashion causing depression.  Since it is illegal to do scientific research into this, I'm giving speculation based on the results of Timothy Leary (Who was a Phd) and other experiences.)

6.  The drug is NOT addictive.  You cannot trip again immediately afterwards as it takes a couple days for the seretonin levels to return to normal.
Furthermore, after experiencing it, its highly unlikely that you will want to do it again right away-- it takes a week or two to process all the thinking that occured while tripping.

7. IT is true that some people laced the drug with strychnine which is a cummulative poison.  This was used to stabilize it.  I have no idea if this is still done, but I doubt it is as common as it used to be.  

8. LSD is very sensitive to both light and oxygen and heat.  So, the freezer in a bag with as little air as possible is the place to store it.  It is *much* better if you can get it recently after manufacture, as each week its quality degrades.

9. Most people who use LSD stop after awhile.  Once they've "been there, done that" a couple times it looses its appeal.    This was my experience, and I have not done the drug (or any drugs) for over a decade (So I know nothing of the quality of whats on the market these days.)

If you're going to try it, its a good idea to have a friend you *really trust* there to keep you safe (mostly this is feeling safe, as opposed to dealing with any real danger.)

Oh, and listen to the Residents album "Eskimo".
-- Between 1982 and 1988 US Income tax revenues doubled from approx. $500 Billion to $1 trillion due to Reagans tax cuts.

Thank you (none / 0) (#420)
by spiralx on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 06:24:40 AM EST

I've been doing acid for years and have done shitloads, but there was definitely a fair bit of info there I'd not known.

The drug was discovered while looking for a pregnancy support drug that was more potent, and thus it does cause tightening of the abdominal muscles, something to be aware of before you experience it. LSA was in wide use for this purpose during WWII.

I *always* get that... hence my tip elsewhere in this story about not eating too close to dropping. You've finally cleared it up for me, thanks :)

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

Music to Analyse (none / 0) (#423)
by Meatbomb on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 08:47:50 AM EST

Re your Residents comment at the end,

One of my best times was spending about 6 hours listening to most of frank Zappa's 1960/70 catalogue.

He wasn't pro-drug, but his music sure as hell is. I would most strongly recommend the instrumentals from Shiek Yerbouti at around peak hour.

_______________

Good News for Liberal Democracy!

[ Parent ]
Danger, Will Robinson! (none / 0) (#434)
by SEWilco on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 10:36:37 AM EST

"5. LSD-25 works by depleting the seratonin levels in your brain. This is what takes 12 hours to dissipate (or less sometimes)...as I said the drug is gone quickly. The modern slate of anti-depressants affect seretonin levels as well, specifically how they are managed by the brain. It is quite likely that those with depression due to chemistry (As opposed to the loss of a loved one) will find LSD useful in treating the depression."

Maybe you should read some sources more recent than 1960.

  1. Low levels of serotonin are associated with depression. Something with the effect of blocking the action of serotonin is dangerous for someone with depression (unenhanced depression is already too dangerous). Serotonin-oriented antidepressants have the effect of increasing serotonin behavior. (I say "effect" because there are several chemical methods to have the desired result).
  2. Although your advice to reduce depression by depressing serotonin is wrong, LSD might have a short-term effect because its mild stimulus of serotonin receptors seems to cause feelings of euphoria. But as that's dependent on LSD, it will only last as long as the LSD does.
  3. LSD seems to block serotonin behavior, but does not seem to do so by destroying serotonin. The current belief is that it actually fits certain serotonin receptors, but LSD fits it the wrong way so does not have as much of an effect as serotonin. So it behaves to block the action of serotonin although it does stimulate the neurons a little. Like when moist air is wanted but you put a little oil in a pot of water -- there is more liquid in the pot, but the oil evaporates into the air more slowly than water does and the oil blocks water from evaporating.
  4. LSD's primary action seems to be in a structure which carries sensations between several parts of the brain. The structure usually acts as a filter, to reduce reporting of irrelevant sensations, and LSD reduces the normal suppression thus causing the "enhanced senses" effect. I don't know how useful this is for learning about "consciousness". Anyone who has learned how to measure room temperature with their body or hear the shape of their surroundings has learned more about consciously controlling their brain. But there are hints that LSD also has an effect on glutamate further up in the cortex, so there may be higher-brain alteration (perhaps permanent, as glutamate can affect growth and destruction of cells).


[ Parent ]
More advice from the experienced (4.66 / 3) (#425)
by no carrier on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 11:09:11 AM EST

I'm at work so I'll keep this short:

- we are all individuals and we will all have individual experiences no matter what the stimulant

- please understand as much as possible about what you are doing, be it cliff jumping or ingesting lsd you need to understand what the consequences of your actions are

- tripping alone can be interesting, but if it's your first time I cannot stress enough how important it is to have someone you trust with you and that person should be completely sober

- be in a good mood when/if you try lsd. it will enhance your emotions no matter what they are

- I suggest doing a search for Alan Watts and Aldous Huxley, especially if your looking for some kind of mystical insight, because you will find it (or maybe it finds you) and you should be prepared for it.

- You can reach the same mental states through meditation, lsd is a cheat, sort of like taking steroids to skip all the hard work outs.

- I neither advocate the use of lsd nor will I tell you not to use it. It's your life, you should make the decision. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents since I have a bit of experience with this.

- a little about me. LSD was the first drug I ever took, I did it after reading Albert Hoffman's LSD: My Problem Child and studying the effects in other people. I have taken several thousand *hits* of varying potency and can say that my life, for the most part, has been enriched. There are many downsides, for instance, I found that a rush of adrenalin threw me into a severe state of panic. This is why you should be in a controlled environment with someone watching/helping/leading you. I lead a very healthy life, hold a steady job in the IT industry and have a loving, Christian family. I do consider myself a Christian, but I have a very open attitude towards all other opinions. This is not to say LSD can't screw you up completly, I have a cousin who, on occasion, strips naked and chases cars down the highway. My Aunt says it was caused by drugs, my father has always said "Drugs didn't do that to him, stupidity did"


oh, if you do deciede to take lsd, read anything by Hunter S Thompson and watch "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas". You should read HST anyway, just because he's hilarious. Thanks for checking out my opinion.



I stab people.
On Huxley (4.00 / 2) (#427)
by Leon Pron on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 03:01:09 PM EST

Actually, Huxley never experimented with LSD-25. His comments in "The Doors of Perception" and "Heaven and Hell" are based on his experimentation with Mescaline, the psychoactive alkaloid of Peyote cacti.

Maybe, maybe not, doesn't really matter...... (none / 0) (#433)
by no carrier on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 12:57:38 AM EST

"Both Huxley and his wife, Laura Archera Huxley, had also experimented with LSD and psilocybin. Huxley would have preferred not to designate these two substances and mescaline as "drugs," because in English usage, as also by the way with Droge in German, that word has a pejorative connotation, and because it was important to differentiate the hallucinogens from the other drugs, even linguistically. He believed in the great importance of agents producing visionary experience in the modern phase of human evolution."

That's from Albert Hoffman's "LSD: My Problem Child" see http://www.psykedelbok.se/LSD_My_Problem_Child/chapter8.html 5th paragraph down.

However, it doesn't really matter because Huxley had a great deal of insight about perception and how these substances effected it, and that's why I recommend reading his works.



I stab people.
[ Parent ]
LSD (none / 0) (#435)
by tylerkelly on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 02:50:39 PM EST

I can hardly add anything new to the other voluminous responses to your article, except to thank you for writing it. I took LSD a couple of times when I was in college in the early 1970's. The first time I took it, I was alone, and I think I took too much, and it was really scarry. However, I fortunately had the perspicacity not to leave my dorm room until the effect wore off. What I remember most about the experience was a deep feeling that my religious faith and prayer would save me from freaking out. So, I guess if I discovered anything, it was the value of prayer and meditation. Looking back on my experiences with LSD, I would say in general that they gave me some valuable insights into myself at the time. I would not, however, try it again.

4 comments about lsd (none / 0) (#437)
by fr2ty on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 07:17:56 PM EST

If you were unexperienced and asked me, I'd say:

NEVER TRY IT OUT ALONE. It's good to have people around that you trust.

Take 3 days off (minimum) and make sure you have good food and soft drinks for the next days. It pays to plan it.

Don't ask questions, don't try to understand. You'd need some practice for that.

Don't believe me and think it over. LSD is not necessary for leading a good life.

I have quit LSD 5 years ago. I liked it pretty much. I developed the habit to have my jaw dislocated and not notice it.  My cat also didn't like it. She fled me whenever I was "on air". It's way too heavy stuff for me.
--
Please note that are neither capitals nor numbers in my mail adress.

Trip Fantastic (none / 0) (#442)
by K A P on Sun Nov 24, 2002 at 12:45:12 AM EST

Lsd is great... Never have i enjoyed riding a bike, throwing a football, staring at the stars more then when i was on lsd. The way that everything seems to change....is a miracle. As if i was a god for them 8 hours. Thinking thoughts that will always be in my head now forgotten in the past, that had seemed to be so real and possible. Enjoying my company to the fullest, and laughing at the most simpliest things. As if nothing else in the world mattered except for the time in wich i was enjoying the "trip". And all the magical colors, and vibrations brought a new insight to life....

My Lysergic Acid Diethylamide Life | 444 comments (371 topical, 73 editorial, 0 hidden)
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