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Matrix Reloaded Reviewed

By ktakki in Culture
Sat May 17, 2003 at 12:38:17 PM EST
Tags: Movies (all tags)
Movies

Saw Matrix Reloaded this afternoon.

Executive Summary: It sucked.

For a more detailed review of this 138 minute suckfest, read within.


First, a confession: I haven't been to a movie in years. It's not that I don't like movies; I love them. It's just that I don't particularly care for the moviegoing experience. I'd rather wait until the DVD comes out and watch somthing in the comfort of my own home, where I can smoke cigarettes and have a drink, maybe pause it to take a leak or get a snack. Sitting in a freezing theatre without a cigarette for over two hours is too much like going to church, except religious institutions don't gouge you on the $3.75 medium Pepsi.

So this was a big deal for me, heading out to an actual cinema for Matrix Reloaded. Went with a friend and caught a mid-afternoon matinee. There were maybe twenty or thirty people present in a theatre that seats 250, though the movie was showing on three screens, staggered 40 minutes apart. I was really looking forward to this movie; the trailers looked pretty good. Hell, I would have gone even if they didn't. It's the Matrix, after all.

Part of the suckitude of this afternoon was attributable to the actual moviegoing experience: five minutes of Pepsi and Jordan Furniture commercials really gets me into the mood for a suckass movie. Note, I'm not bitching about the coming attractions (more on them in a bit), but about the same fucking commercials I see on television, except fifty feet wide and with surround sound. Misery.

Previews had been one of my favorite things about going out to see a movie, until the studios' marketing departments decided to turn them into mini-films for the attention-span impaired. Instead of a little action, a little skin, a throwaway line ("I'll be back."), now there are plot points! And they get resolved! In the fucking trailer! Please shoot me now.

Anyway, Terminator 3 looks like it's worth seeing, but Legally Blonde 2 made me want to dig my eyes out with a grapefruit spoon, and that was just a 120 second trailer. 2 Fast 2 Furious looks like someone made Grand Theft Auto into a flick (and I have no doubt that someone, somewhere in Hollywood, is pitching a GTA movie to some drug-addled producer). But the best preview of all was Tom Cruise as The Last Samurai. Did you just chuckle when you read the phrase "Tom Cruise as The Last Samurai"? The audience broke out into hysterical laughter at that. If there was some way of selling a movie short like a stock, that's the one that would make me my first million.

Finally, Matrix Reloaded. I will attempt to describe how suckrageous this movie was without revealing any spoilers or major plot points, though this might be difficult. If you don't trust me, take the blue pill.

I knew I was in for a long suckward slide when all of Zion broke out in song and dance. For a moment I was back in 1983, watching Ewoks dancing and celebrating on the forest moon of Endor. In fact, that's my biggest gripe about this movie: the Wachowski Brothers have turned into George Lucas. It wasn't just that scene, either: the elders of Zion (couldn't resist) look like they could have been the Jedi council or the Rebel leadership (modulo some CGI or animatronic aliens). Choice and free will have been elevated to the level of The Force. The protagonist learns a disturbing secret about himself.

Furthermore, the Wachowskis commit Lucas's most egregious sin: the sin of excess. Neo is too powerful. There's too much Agent Smith. Too much bullet time. Zion is too big: it's like Coruscant Spaceport, only it's an innie instead of an outie.

A lot of this excess is due to the fact that the original Matrix was a box-office hit and its sequels' budgets balooned into Summer Blockbuster proportions. Part of the charm of the original was its grit, its minimalism, even the cheesy green filters on the lens during each scene inside the Matrix. Some of the sets were found instead of built. An Australian city was used instead of a digital matte painting of a generic New York; this made it look familiar in an unfamiliar way.

The fights have suffered likewise, becoming Chinese ballet instead of a knock-down fight to the death. There are some good scenes, but only one or two actually decide something crucial to the progress of the plot. The rest are all "Look at what a badass I am on my wire rig" or "Stop! Bullet time! Can't touch this...". None of these scenes, well shot though they were, had the visceral impact of Neo vs. Agent Smith on the subway platform. There was nothing that came close to the balletic chaos of the lobby scene in the first movie, either. The fights in Matrix Reloaded were complete set pieces; you knew when they were coming and you know how they'll end. Suckadelic.

If only the entire movie was made up of fight scenes. Then I might not be so inclined to use the word "suck" in all its myriad variations. Alas, until someone comes out with a Phantom Edit of Matrix Reloaded, a significant portion of this 138 minute sucktasia consists of various characters spouting platitudes about "free will" and "choice", the Brothers Wachowski hitting the viewer over the head with the Baseball Bat of Obviousness. This *KONK* is what *KONK* it means *KONK* to be the One *KONK* Neo. Okay. We get it. Less yakkin' and more whackin'.

I can accept some warmed-over Nietzsche and Buddha if it's well written. This isn't. Not even Jehovah's Witnesses take their faith this seriously, speak about it so ponderously. I've heard all these lines before, when they were delivered to a character named "Anakin". Screw dialog, let's shoot a car chase. First, we'll build our own highway...

The chase scene was the highlight of the movie for me, partially because of the Merovingian's albino bodyguards, Siegfried and Roy, but mostly because I love to watch property damage on the big screen. But even this scene suffered from budgetary excess: cars flipping over barely visible ramps, tractor-trailers vs. Cadillac Escalades (nice product placement, by the way: you'll never buy your way into hipness, General Motors. Give it up.). What, no helicopters? I felt cheated. If I'm paying $7 for an afternoon matinee, there damn well better be some intermodal transportation property damage.

No review would be complete without a mention of the Merovingian, everyone's favorite sleazy Frenchman, who slips some Spanish Fly into the Lady in Red's food. Rock on, monseiur. Of course, it was necessary to deal with him in order to get to the Keymaker. Hmmm...Keymaker. Maybe the Ghostbusters should have been called upon to save Zion. Who ya gonna call? Actually, a giant marshmallow man would have really made this movie. Instead, we get another fight scene, this time with the Merovingian's non-albino bodyguards, one that becomes a medieval swordfight. Welcome to Camelot, Misterrrr Anderson...

The plot was as thin as the dialog. This might be a spoiler: the dramatic climax of the movie consists of Neo having a conversation with Colonel Sanders, in which the Secret of the Eleven Herbs and Spices is finally revealed. Then Jason Alexander appears with a bucket of Spicy Nuggets. No, wait...Neo has to make a choice. Two doors. Behind one, a lady. Behind the other, a tiger. No, wait...

Nope, that's it. A sixty-year-old cliche. Why couldn't we see Neo and Trinity at the air field, one last embrace, a last kiss, "We'll always have Zion", and she gets on that plane with Victor Laszlo while Neo walks off into the fog with Agent Smith, friends at last?

The most disturbing development was the introduction of a teenaged male character, a kid who is beholden to Neo for saving his life. This boy didn't really do or say much in the Matrix Reloaded, but he's got some major Wesley Crusher potential for the third movie. I can only hope that his role is instrumental in showing us what happens when a Sentinel meets flesh and blood. Surely those laser tentacles are good for something.

Last bit of suckocity: the soundtrack, complete with the Violins of Suspense and the Cellos of Impending Doom. And Ewok disco time, courtesy of the Blue Man Stomp. The first movie's soundtrack was so much more effective, so much less intrusive. It was so much more appropriate, a subtle, forboding techno undercurrent instead of a clumsy attempt at a classical Hollywood score that veered all over the stylistic map, from Bernard Hermann to Phillip Glass. What amazed me was that both movies were scored by Don Davis. He's gone Hollywood. That's just sucktastic.

Was there anything good about Matrix Reloaded? There's the aforementioned car chase, a few good fights, and Neo and Trinity bumping uglies. In retrospect, I should have waited a few months and rented the DVD instead of sucking down the hype like a happy consumer. Even though I bought my ticket expecting nothing more than an afternoon's entertainment, I was still disappointed. When Matrix Revolutions is released in November, I'm staying home. I can live without seeing Neo reveal the True Meaning of Christmas to all the good little girls and boys of Zion.

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Matrix Reloaded Reviewed | 421 comments (356 topical, 65 editorial, 2 hidden)
I didn't think it was *that* bad... (4.00 / 2) (#9)
by porkchop_d_clown on Thu May 15, 2003 at 11:34:41 PM EST

I mean, it wasn't great, the first fight with Agent Smith was a giggle, and the sound track was just way too much, but there were a lot more layers to it than you seem to have noticed - I sat in a bar with a group of geeks all this afternoon arguing about why you needed Logic, Intuition and Faith to reboot the matrix...

And, no, I'm not going to say which characters represented those 3 elements - there might be someone left on k5 who hasn't seen it yet...

But, still, I had a hoot defining Neo as sort of the polar opposite of Maud Dib...


--
Fishing for Men, Trolling for Newbies, what's the difference?


Neo vs. Muad'Dib (5.00 / 1) (#26)
by Noodle on Fri May 16, 2003 at 04:01:10 AM EST

I'd like to hear you elaborate on that.  Not because I'm inclined to disagree--I'm just curious.

{The Nefarious Noodle}
[ Parent ]

It's all about choice. (5.00 / 6) (#39)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 16, 2003 at 08:23:21 AM EST

Maud Dib realized his prescience effectively robbed him of free will - his knowledge of what he would do was so perfect he literally lived his life as if he was remembering what he had already done.

Meanwhile, Neo is the fundamental opposite. The very reason for Neo's existence is to create a true choice - the architect tries to make it impossible for Neo to make the "wrong" choice, but Neo still has to make a choice. Effectively, the Architect represents Logic, the Oracle represents Intuition and Neo represents Faith.


--
Fishing for Men, Trolling for Newbies, what's the difference?


[ Parent ]
So, that would mean... (5.00 / 1) (#113)
by dasunt on Fri May 16, 2003 at 09:54:01 PM EST

That Neo is really Siona Atreides?

One thing I'll give Herbert is that the Dune sequals didn't rehash Dune, basically, from book 1 - book 4 was Paul making the future and Leto II unmaking it.

I do think that the Matrix Reloaded did piss off a few fans. I heard this quote outside of the theater afterwords:
"You don't end a movie with the words 'TO BE CONCLUDED'. We got months to fucking wait. I'm mean, this isn't Star Trek."



[ Parent ]
Re: It's all about choice. (none / 0) (#232)
by gooberguy on Sun May 18, 2003 at 09:33:28 PM EST

Effectively, the Architect represents Logic, the Oracle represents Intuition and Neo represents Faith.

Whoa, man. That is deep...

[ Parent ]
Hasn't seen it yet... (none / 0) (#38)
by Builder on Fri May 16, 2003 at 08:05:15 AM EST

Yeah, like every reader in the rest of the world! AFAIK this is only out in North America at the moment - we won't get it until next week
--
Be nice to your daemons
[ Parent ]
It's good, go see it (4.66 / 3) (#143)
by Subtillus on Sat May 17, 2003 at 11:03:59 AM EST

The rest of these people are retards who think smashing a pop-culture icon makes them look smart or something. Don't pay any attention, it's a good movie experience and it's great science fiction.

[ Parent ]
Agreed. (5.00 / 2) (#184)
by codepoet on Sun May 18, 2003 at 12:26:26 AM EST

I agree.  It revealed a lot of the universe, it covered some important plot points, and it generall unveiled more of the mystery and how they're going to accomplish their goal (kind of... wait for the end).

A very nice flick.  People expect "Matrix II" to be "Matrix" with a new story.  It never works that way.  Folks just need to get over it and watch the movie as a new movie with no preconceptions.  Then it's not bad at all (good, even).

"The French will only be united under the threat of danger. Nobody can simply bring together a country that has 265 kinds of cheese." - Charles De Gaulle,
[ Parent ]

Re: Hasn't seen it yet... (none / 0) (#238)
by stormie on Sun May 18, 2003 at 10:56:22 PM EST

I heard that Matrix Reloaded featured the biggest simultaneous release in cinema history - so, while the UK has indeed been screwed (as always), it's by no means true that every reader in the rest of the world has not yet had a chance to see it.

Everyone in Belgium, Canada, France, The Netherlands, The Philippines, Taiwan, Thailand, Australia, Iceland, New Zealand, Singapore, Turkey, and Yugoslavia got their chance the same weekend as the USians did.

As an aside, why does the UK get screwed so badly on release dates? I lived over there for a year and a bit and couldn't believe how many movies were getting released in Australia (which I always thought got the rawest deal) before the UK..



[ Parent ]
is it wrong? (4.70 / 10) (#15)
by Fuzzwah on Fri May 16, 2003 at 01:03:09 AM EST

Is it wrong that I thoroughly enjoyed both the movie and this article?

It's so easy to write a negative review, but making one this damn funny is extremely hard. Good work.

I personally went in and saw the midnight showing and plan on doing the same for the third one. I've got a few gripes with Reloaded, but imho, it was still a kick arse flick which managed to live up to the hype.

--
The best a human can do is to pick a delusion that helps him get through the day. - God's Debris

Act 2 is always the hardest, but your review sucks (4.73 / 38) (#18)
by SocratesGhost on Fri May 16, 2003 at 01:39:03 AM EST

Everything you hated about this movie you brought with you in the door. A full 1/3 of your review is a description of the movie going experience. You have to read through 5 full paragraphs before you even start talking about the film. Talk about baggage.

Your expectations were your downfall. You cannot even see this movie without drawing comparisons to everything in pop culture. You see people dancing and you think of Ewoks. You see a guy in a white mustache and he's Colonel Sanders. Hell, you even drag in decade old un-hip hip-hop song lyrics into your review.

In fact, that you can't even distance yourself from Star Wars is a huge problem for you. Maybe I watch too much local city government on TV, but that's exactly what a city council looks like. Maybe you think of Star Wars because that's your only frame of reference?

It's not just your Star Wars (and Ghostbusters) expectations that are the only problem either. Also, you compare it too much and too little to the original movie. You expect a visceral fight like the subway fight from the first movie. You expect good philosophizing, never mind the fact that the Matrix is just merely Plato's Allegory of the Cave(btw, that's 2000+ years old). You expect minimalism because it's a sequel to a film that wouldn't have been minimalist had it been given the same budget as this one. You expect a lot, and unsurprisingly, the directors really didn't have your expectations in mind when they created the story. Maybe this was more what they had in mind when they made the first film.

As a result, you didn't go along for the ride. This movie is about what you wanted, not what the movie offered. This is why you fail as a movie reviewer.

This movie has its problems. But I doubt you even really know what they are.

-Soc
I drank what?


Not quite. (5.00 / 2) (#57)
by cdyer on Fri May 16, 2003 at 10:57:04 AM EST

I got the same impression from the review, that it was too much about the reviewer, and not enough about the movie, but not all of his baggage is unwarranted. When the Nebuchadnezzar first lands on Zion, the whole scene, from the John Williams-esque score to the shot of them walking down the ramp onto the flight deck were highly reminiscent of the Star Wars Trilogy. Picture Darth Vader coming to inspect the troops in, which was it? Jedi? Also the Architect had some line about Destiny that was delivered in a very Vader like fashion, a la the final confrontation in Empire. However, I think these were carefully placed homages, and did not adversely affect the rest of the movie.

My 2¢,
Cliff

[ Parent ]

well, hell (5.00 / 2) (#72)
by SocratesGhost on Fri May 16, 2003 at 01:37:32 PM EST

Let's throw in the return of the emperor from Gladiator. I think they did that in Ben Hur, too. But why leave it there? Commander Strassa landed in Casablanca to a VERY Jedi fashion, complete with conversation about how to assert power while he's walking away from the ship, with troops lined up on either side.

I saw no parallel with Jedi. Jedi's reception was orderly, precise, militaristic. Matrix's reception was organic and primitive. There wasn't even anyone there to greet them except some dorky kid thrown in as a plot device that didn't go anywhere.

The only things in common was that a ship landed, and that you saw both.

I don't want to go into the other point, since that would create spoilers, but I think you may have a point there.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
Great Expectations (2.40 / 5) (#77)
by ktakki on Fri May 16, 2003 at 02:13:52 PM EST

I went into the movie expecting nothing more than an entertaining afternoon at the movies. That I left over two hours later denied even this simple pleasure is the reason for this review.

I thought about cutting those first few paragraphs but decided not to, because they provide context. All professional reviewers write their pieces after seeing a film either at a private screening given by the studios or after seeing a DVD copy distributed before the premiere. Except for Ebert, there are precious few reviewers who take the whole moviegoing gestalt into account, commercials, expensive snacks, sticky floors, sub-arctic air conditioning, cell phones, and the like. If it makes you feel any better, consider this an anti-review, by an amateur, for a web site that features writing by non-professionals (except for Johnny).

To be more specific about my expectations, I wanted to see some kick ass fighting, which I did, but most of the fight scenes were gratuitous, highly choreographed set pieces that did nothing to advance the plot. I wanted some intelligent, self-referential dialog (like the first movie), but instead I was treated to tedentious philosophizing. Not that there wasn't a load of crap about the nature of the Matrix in the first movie, but the fact that it wasn't presented in such a heavy-handed manner made it much easier to swallow. Count the number of times the same thing was said by different characters (Morpheus, the Councillor, the Merovingian, the Oracle, the Architect, etc.). That's the Wachowski baseball bat in action.

As for my pop culture references, show me a reviewer who doesn't pack them with his notepad and pencil. One of the things that disappointed me about MR was how derivative it was, and not in the sense of homage or reference (like Cypher's "We're not in Kansas anymore" line).

I never expected Matrix Reloaded to surpass the original Matrix, but I never expected it to fail as a movie either, and that's the impression I came away with afterwards.


k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

[ Parent ]

movie gestalt (4.75 / 12) (#115)
by SocratesGhost on Fri May 16, 2003 at 10:14:55 PM EST

Tell me what the filmmakers can do to improve the theater that you saw it in, and then I can give a rats ass about your movie going experience. Until then, the crying baby in the third row that pissed you off is not a valid reason to complain about a film. My guess is that you went to see a huge release and ended up waiting in line for an hour to get a crappy seat, and that's your poor misfortune. Your wasting my time in that part of the review, it doesn't apply to anyone but yourself.

About the only thing that you should review is the price. Is this movie worth a matinee? Video rental? Netflix? Of full-blown friday night, wait-in line next to a smelly redneck and pay full price movie. That applies to me.

Frankly, most movie reviewers anymore don't have a clue about how to give a critique. They spoonfeed an evaluation to their readers of whether a film is worthwhile to see, but they fail to evaluate the merits of the film itself. For example, Leaving Las Vegas was a great film; I'd recommend it to no one, though. The same applies to Grave of the Fireflies. But that recommendation is the culmination of every review. Ebert did a disservice with the quick summary at the end of his shows where they go through and give thumbs up and thumbs down.

What you are doing is a review tailored to go on rotten tomatoes, that you personally had a bad time so you give it a splat rating. For all your readers know, you got stood up on your date and were taking it out on the film and so you mock it as you do the new kid at school about whom you know nothing but will invent epithets anyway.

You don't analyze why it's bad, except in comparison with what you wanted. Well, I wanted more sex with animals. I didn't get it, so this was a bad film, right? Bzzzt. My expectations have 0 voting rights on the merits of the film.

Seriously, you accuse the movie of being gratuitous and derivative, and then you quote MC Hammer? Puh-lease. At least come up with a new punching bag; even The Critic used him.

I dub thee King of Derivatively Gratuitous Bad Movie Reviews.

I'm being overly harsh, though. I'm not asking you to defend why you didn't like it. Your opinion is yours for whatever reason. But you fail to give an honest write up. You could review every movie negatively, using the tactics you used. That's not worthwhile to anyone except to those who like to hear themselves screaming. Yours is a bad Negative Review.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
Point taken. (2.60 / 5) (#129)
by ktakki on Sat May 17, 2003 at 01:48:28 AM EST

All in all, the experience of seeing this movie in the theatre instead of on DVD in the comfort of my home had little to do with why I didn't like Matrix Reloaded.

That's not to say that the minor annoyances, like the frigid temperatures or the advertisements didn't have a negative effect on my overall experience. But when I say the plot was thin, the fights contrived, the acting wooden, and the dialog was heavy-handed, I have no doubt that I'd espouse the same opinions even if I'd been treated to a private screening on the Warner Brothers lot and had been hand fed sushi by Heidi Klum.

I must confess to a bit of hyperbole: the last mainstream picture I'd seen in a modern "cineplex" had been a few years ago; I do like to see non-mainstream films at local "art house" venues like the Coolidge Corner Theatre in Brookline, MA, or the Brattle Theatre in Cambridge. That made the inclusion of Pepsi ads all the more jarring. Had I regularly attended mainstream movies over the last few years this development would have been incremental, and wouldn't have been worthy of note. Instead, I felt like the apocryphal coma patient, who upon waking up learns that Sunny Bono is a Congressman and Cher has won an OscarTM. Quite the rude awakening.

My enjoyment of the first Matrix movie and the hype surrounding this sequel were enough to make me break my cineplex fast, so I think its only fair that these things are fair game, worthy of inclusion in my review, if only for the sake of context.

I'd be interested in seeing your review, though.


k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

[ Parent ]

heh (4.00 / 1) (#326)
by tps12 on Wed May 21, 2003 at 07:54:20 AM EST

when I say the plot was thin, the fights contrived, the acting wooden, and the dialog was heavy-handed
Sounds like it lived up to the first movie just fine.

[ Parent ]
disagree / agree (4.00 / 1) (#149)
by Sze on Sat May 17, 2003 at 12:34:18 PM EST

but most of the fight scenes were gratuitous, highly choreographed set pieces that did nothing to advance the plot.

The Agent Smith fight scene's importance won't fully be known until Revolutions. All I can do now is speculate, but Smith's ability to spawn copies of himself will be important and that fight scene illustrated that ability. I consider that the high point of the movie; it was fun as hell to watch and it was showing, not telling, something the rest of the movie could have done a better job with.

The baseball bat analogy is perfect for the numerous choice and free will speeches. I think the brothers wanted to make sure the audience knew the core differences beween man and machine, no doubt so that the 3rd movie finale can be mass-consumed. They could have been better storytellers, though, or maybe given everyone a free will pamphlet at the door.

[ Parent ]

Agreed. (none / 0) (#173)
by Canar on Sat May 17, 2003 at 07:35:54 PM EST

There was a comment somewhere about Revolutions lacking something graceful and ballet-ish like the lobby scene, but I think that the Smith scene was that exactly.

[ Parent ]
Rock On (5.00 / 2) (#280)
by slippytoad on Mon May 19, 2003 at 04:46:39 PM EST

That is by far the most coherent statement I've read so far on this subject. There are tons of people out there ready to destroy this movie and crucify its creators for it not living up to their expectations. Well, what the fuck, it's a movie.

Personally, as a writer myself I found the continuing unraveling of the plot to be fascinating. For about the first 10 minutes of the film I thought I was watching a trailer, or something, but once it snapped to, I was OK with it. Many I've spoken to are upset with the Zion Rave scene, the love scene, etc. I'm going back to see it again. There's a lot more going on than most self-assigned "critics" are willing to admit. The context is fascinating, and the real meaning of what's going on has yet to be revealed. I thought they did a fantastic job of writing themselves out of the corner they ended M1 in with Neo as a virtual god.

Face it, if you walk in expecting the movie to suck, because ten thousand mindless twits have propagated the meme that it sucks, you aren't going to enjoy it. If you are one of the three geeks who hasn't seen it yet, my advice to you is walk in with an open mind. It will not be the first movie. It cannot be the first movie. If 90% of your enjoyment of the first movie was in seeing Carrie Anne-Moss do kung fu, I recommend you go get some real kung fu movies -- that's not what this is about. Go rent the last three or four Jet Li films if you wanna see kung fu. Honestly most of the fight sequences in this film are fake, and you know they are. That's what the freakin' superpowers are about. If 90% of your enjoyment of the first was seeing special effects then you may get a glut of special effects. Just fucking enjoy it. But for crying out loud, like the man says if you bring in a bunch of baggage to the experience you're going to hate the movie.
If I were the al Qaeda people right now I would be planning a lot of attacks in the next few days and weeks -- John "Bring 'em On" McCain
[ Parent ]

this is much, much deeper than the cave. (none / 0) (#346)
by Prophet themusicgod1 on Thu May 22, 2003 at 01:29:21 AM EST

plato had nothing on the necessity of that one-thing-that-went-wrong so valiantly displayed here...besides there was a limit to the understanding in the cave(and also the first film)... as pointed out elsewhere this is a limit no longer. we may be completely matrixed/caved in...the only real solution is to follow the french dude in the quest for more knowledge...or something
"I suspect the best way to deal with procrastination is to put off the procrastination itself until later. I've been meaning to try this, but haven't gotten around to it yet."swr
[ Parent ]
Watch again (3.83 / 6) (#19)
by ph317 on Fri May 16, 2003 at 01:48:03 AM EST

The plot was as thin as the dialog. This might be a spoiler: the dramatic climax of the movie consists of Neo having a conversation with Colonel Sanders, in which the Secret of the Eleven Herbs and Spices is finally revealed. Then Jason Alexander appears with a bucket of Spicy Nuggets. No, wait...Neo has to make a choice. Two doors. Behind one, a lady. Behind the other, a tiger. No, wait...

Watch the movie again, and pay more attention.  After reading your review and a few others I expected a crappy inconsistent plot, and it was far from it.  The plot of the whole trilogy (well, based on guesses at number 3 of course) actually is very self-consistent, and especially in this 2nd part, there's a fair amount of complexity.  While Matrix 1 had a strong plot, it's complexity was that of a saturday morning cartoon.  Matrix 2's plot is more like a well-orchestrated fugue - however I can certainly see how some people would be bowled over by the speed at which it unfolds (and especially the high-bandwidth dump of plot data from "Col Sanders" at the end - his wordiness, style, and hasty speech make it difficult to follow (and I might add, I love how his voice was halfway between agent smith and an old-school text to speech voice)) and just write it off as a bunch of crap that makes no sense.  Wait for the DVD and a transcript so you can slow it down and comprehend it all.

but it was a bunch of crap (3.00 / 4) (#29)
by Delirium on Fri May 16, 2003 at 05:50:57 AM EST

The "Architect" just spouted a bunch of words that sounded like they were pulled at random from a mathematics textbook. THE EQUATION HAS AN ANOMALY.

[ Parent ]
Like I said, watch again (4.00 / 7) (#67)
by ph317 on Fri May 16, 2003 at 11:53:51 AM EST


There's a lot of content in the architect's speech.  The words were not pulled randomly from a mathematics textbook.  Be prepared for lots of speculation, and there's undoubtably more to the story that I'm missing after a first viewing in a noisy theater eyes bulging at the action sequences.  

In rough terms, what I gathered from it and the rest of the movie (and I too, need to see it again to make more sense of things - not because they're not right, but because it's really too much complexity for one viewing):

The Architect, which can be assumed to be a peice of the original rebellious software that overthrew humanity, although other theories can work as well (perhaps he's a code-embodiment of one of the human architects that designed the systems that ended up overthrowing humanity?  Seems more likely that's he pure machine-from-machine though), is giving Neo something very close to the truth, although he's leaving things out by omission, which will probably become clear in M3.

He designed the first Matrix to be an ideal environment for humans.  It didn't work, basically because the same human nature that seeks utopia also rejects it when it appears.  (this was covered breifly in M1 as well).  The Oracle (the other designer) and the Architect, through successive generations of Matrix designs, managed to make a Matrix that most humans accepted, one that truly captured the essence of humanity.

Unfortunately for the Architect, there are inherent mathematical reprecussions in this design that are dangerous to the machines.  One of the inherent things is that in building the more-perfected Matrix, you end up making a Neo - he is basically a required part of the equasion the Oracle arrives at for reality.

This was no surprise to them, and it especially isn't now on the 7th attempt at the Matrix, since it has occured every time.  Neo is a systemic problem they've had to deal with and they've accounted for, as are the inhabitants of Zion.  He has always played a crucial role in their plans to keep humanity dominated inside the Matrix through his attempts to free the people.  Anotehr part of that equasion is real choice offered to the humans, and to Neo.  Neo can make real choices, some of which may have dire consequences for the machine empire if he's not properly accounted for and controlled.

At the end of Neo's somewhat machine-guided/directed course in this 7th Matrix, as in all the ones that came before, he is presented with a choice between destroying humanity forever and totally (and hurting the machines in the process with the lack of human power source - but the architect claims the machines won't die from it, we can assume they can find other less-efficient energy sources), or willingly restarting the Matrix cycle (knowing that the cycle will just repeat again, and humanity will again be enslaved for untold generations) destroying the old Matrix, taking a small number of people to start a new Zion outside the 8th Matrix, etc.

It's difficult to tell without the view of M3's plot how "real" or "fake" Neo's final decision in M2 is.  However at least on the surface, he appears to make the decision none of the predecessor Neos made - the decision to end humanity once and for all.  He does this to save Trinity in the short term, and then states to morpheus that "unless we do something in 24 hours..." - so basically he believes that he can make the destruction choice and then find a way out of it and defeat the machines before they defeat humanity.  In essence, he's trying to cheat the Kobiyashi Maru the Architect has presented him.

Of course, in the final scenes it becomes obvious that the outside world in which Zion exists is quite likely also a Matrix..... there's more than one possible explanation.....

  1. The Zion world was real before, but at the end of M2 when he unplugs into the "real world" he is being fooled, he has instead just stepped into another sub-matrix that resembles the outside world.  In other words, when he choose the door which saved trinity, he started on a course dictated by the architect in which he's supposed to think he exits to the real world, but he's trapped in a matrix of it.
  2. The "real world" where Zion is has always been a Matrix and he didn't realize it.. he has been in recursive Matrices all along.  (Perhaps this goes back to the 7th gen Matrix concept - perhaps at the end when each Matrix is "destroyed" really just the material contents are made to look like a destroyed earth in which a new Zion is built and a new sub-matrix level of recursion is encapsulated.)


[ Parent ]
Dancing about architecture... (5.00 / 1) (#74)
by ktakki on Fri May 16, 2003 at 01:42:15 PM EST

I appreciate your comments, and your points are well taken.

However, my problem with this scene have more to do with the structural flaws of this movie rather than the plot content revealed during Neo's chat with the Architect. This was the dramatic climax of this movie, after all, one in which Neo learns a disturbing fact and must make a painful choice (I'm trying to be vague about spoilers here). A lecture from Col. Sanders, no matter how vital the information he imparts, does not make for a very exciting climax in an action movie.

Just as a thought experiment, here's how I would have made this part more exciting: while Neo and the Architect are chewing the fat, cut to the Zion ships deployed on the perimeter, battling Sentinels. Cut back to Neo and the Architect. Back to the battle. Back to the chat, just as the Zion rave scene in the beginning was broken up by shots of Neo and Trinity doing the horizontal bop. It would have made for an interesting contrast.

Remember, the fact that one of the ships deployed its EMP early, insuring the loss of other ships, is a major development that bodes ill for the future of Zion. But we never see this; we're told about this. I recall from a high school English Comp class my teacher's favorite phrase: "Show, don't tell". And as an animator, I'd love to see more than one of those bug-zapper propelled hoverships on the screen at one time. I guess that wasn't in the budget for this movie.

Ah, Kobiyashi Maru. I forget the exact circumstances of that Star Trek reference, but I believe the point was that Kirk passed this test by gaming the game. Would that Neo had done this during this scene, diving into the Architect just as he'd done with Agent Smith at the end of the first movie, making a choice different from the two that were presented to him. Perhaps he was reluctant to do this because of what happened to Smith? I'd like to see this anyway, inconsistencies be damned.


k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

[ Parent ]

Wait till the third movie to pass judgement (4.50 / 4) (#105)
by curunir on Fri May 16, 2003 at 07:31:26 PM EST

Spoiler Warning...Blah, Blah, Blah...but if you've read any of the parent comments, you probably don't care.

You've basically seen half of a 5 hour movie and you're judging them on how they handled things without knowing what "whys" might have made them handle it that way. After seeing the second film, I can envision an explanation that makes every choice they made make sense (or if it doesn't explain something, let me know!)

Basically, I get the impression that Neo isn't human (neither are any of the main characters, but that's not important to this hypothesis). Neo is an attempt by human programmers to create a true AI. In his earlier incarnations (1 through 5), his program was flawed in some significant fashion that caused them to need to make changes and start the simulation over again. The matrix then becomes just a simulation designed to evaluate the progress of their AI implementation. The scene with the architect is crucial since it will prove whether an AI can fall choose love. It's only one of many milestones that he hits along his journey (choosing the red pill, disbelieving the reality the matrix offers him at the end of the first film, etc).

So, if in this scenario, none of the battle for Zion is even relevant. All that matters is Neo's reaction...has his AI advanced to the point where his decision making can be influenced by a uniquely human emotion? It would also set up a bit of a head-scratcher in that if Neo is AI, could he become the AI from the first movie that goes to war with the humans and creates the Matrix?

This is just one explanation that makes everything make sense to me. There's probably a few others that the writers may have come up with. But to make judgements before seeing the last half of the second movie is to do so prematurely. Maybe I'm just as blindly faithful as Morpheus, but I have hope that the third installment will answer all my questions with some plot twist that makes everything make sense.

[ Parent ]
holy jesus... (none / 0) (#254)
by shdwstkr on Mon May 19, 2003 at 09:18:29 AM EST

...that would be a mind trip.

That's a particular ending never even crossed my feeble little mind. ;)

[ Parent ]

Interesting theory, (5.00 / 1) (#257)
by fn0rd on Mon May 19, 2003 at 09:45:11 AM EST

but i don't see it shaking out that way, if only for the fact that the Wachowski's would alienate the majority of their audience if it turns out that both the matrix and the world which of which Zion is a part are simulated. The audience has now invested a certain amount of emotional capital in Neo, and finding out he's just a program would be a big letdown. However, it is the only credible explanation for the scene at the end with the sentinels... Perhaps Neo is a cyborg? It may be that instead of a complete "victory" by either the humans or the machines, Neo will provide a bridge for free humans and intelligent machines to co-exist peacefully.

--------------------------------------------------------------
This fatwa brought to you by the Agnostic Jihad
Death to the fidels!

[ Parent ]
Agent Smith... (none / 0) (#301)
by kerinsky on Tue May 20, 2003 at 12:15:36 AM EST

Agent Smith seems to have some goal for Neo that doesn't align well with the other AI constructs, and Smith also feels a connection of some sort to Neo.  It wouldn't suprise me a bit if Smith infected those sentinels in the "real world" and Neo was somehow able to take advantage of this conenction to affect them.  Remember Neo feels that Smith is coming before he does at the start of the movie and seems to have a similar reaction to the sentinels at the end.  Pure speculation of course, but it's an interesting angle methings.

-=-
Aconclusionissimplytheplacewhereyougottiredofthinking.
[ Parent ]
not necessarily programs (none / 0) (#330)
by fishling on Wed May 21, 2003 at 03:15:13 PM EST

i don't think that finding out that the "real" world (with zion) is actually another level of the matrix would alienate the audience, or that it implies that neo and friends are all programs either.

my initial take on this was that there are two levels to the matrix.  the first is the familiar one from the first movie.  i believe the architect said something about this being sufficient for 99% of the humans.  the second level is the world with zion, to account for the other %1.  those humans have that "something different" that make them question the matrix.  however, they now think that they have woken up into the real world and focus their energies on the fight, rather than on questioning their reality again.  neo, then, is the final anomaly that also questions that reality and is co-opted into the next reset/reload of the matrix.

the real world, then, can be anything...it might be very close to the machine world situation (trapping humans into something so close to reality that they belive it implicity, but keeping them trapped nonetheless) or it might be that humanity (or some...no way to tell how many are actually people or simulated) freely chose to be immersed in this, either permanently to escape or for a kind of holiday.

i also like the theory in this thread about neo being an AI being tested.  a neat idea that i also didn't come close to thinking of.  :-)

[ Parent ]

Ah but he is gaming the game (4.50 / 2) (#107)
by ph317 on Fri May 16, 2003 at 08:10:38 PM EST


The "game" presented by the architect is that he can take the left door, save trinity, and the human race will be destroyed permanently within 24 hours.  Or he can take the right door, have a new matrix and zion built, and subject humanity to another cycle of endless enslavement.  Both outcomes are losing propositions, and they are presented by what basically amounts to the God of his world, so you would expect the rules as laid forth to be somewhat unyielding.

In this situation, he decides to take the left door, save trinity, and use his 24 hours to cheat the rules and come up with some way to save humanity from permanent destruction.  It's not exactly a KM situation, but it's close.  It fits well with the bold arrogant self-confidence of his character that he made this decision before actually coming up with any sort of plan for pulling it off.

[ Parent ]

How Kirk beat KM... (5.00 / 1) (#212)
by Karellen on Sun May 18, 2003 at 12:10:52 PM EST

...which is, by design, an `unwinnable` (you and your crew dies, no way out of it) simulation that cadets have to play in SF academy.

He cheated. He broke into the SF academy computer the night before and altered the KM program so that there is a `winnable` (he lives) outcome, and then executed that strategy the next day.

The rest is hazy, but IIRC, he was given a commendation for `being inventive` or some such, but if the purpose of KM is to test the cadets character in hopeless situations, I don't see how they could have even passed him. sigh But that's reading too much into a back story designed to tell the audience a bit about how the character might approach the current situation...

K.


[ Parent ]

hm (none / 0) (#335)
by tps12 on Wed May 21, 2003 at 06:37:44 PM EST

I guess I don't understand why you would criticize the structure of the film from this angle. We know that the W brothers are capable of writing a conventionally structured screenplay, since they did it in the first Matrix, so you should assume that if they deviated from the standard Screenwriting 101 format, then there is a reason behind it.

Not having seen it, I'd speculate that by ending the film with talk rather than action, and by telling instead of showing, they're referencing the theme (what is reality, how does action in the real world differ from the description in the metaworld) from an outside perspective. It's sort of cool.

[ Parent ]

Anything but that.. (none / 0) (#410)
by yanisa on Thu May 29, 2003 at 03:48:50 AM EST

here's how I would have made this part more exciting: while Neo and the Architect are chewing the fat, cut to the Zion ships deployed on the perimeter, battling Sentinels. Cut back to Neo and the Architect. Back to the battle. Back to the chat,[..] It would have made for an interesting contrast.

What, and make the scene EVEN MORE SW6-like? I kept expecting the Architect to say something like "Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey to the dark side shall be complete" as it is..

Y.

I think this line's mostly filler
[ Parent ]

What I don't get, (none / 0) (#134)
by ODiV on Sat May 17, 2003 at 02:48:47 AM EST

is what all these "rogue programs" that are from previous, less perfect, incarnations of the Matrix are doing in the 7th iteration of the 99% (or whatever) Matrix. Why would they be present if everything is restarted? I didn't like the plot in this one as much because complexity for the sake of complexity isn't worth much. Sure the first one wasn't a philosophy novel or anything, but it was sufficiently complex for a sci-fi movie and the moviegoing public. It was about the upper level that they're willing to take in. I understood what had occured by the end. This one, I think leaves things unresolved, which I suppose was the point, but I would've liked a little more comprehension. Maybe I'll have to see it again... But I really don't feel like ponying up $10.

--
[ odiv.net ]
[ Parent ]
They've always been there (5.00 / 2) (#146)
by Subtillus on Sat May 17, 2003 at 11:27:31 AM EST

It was all a big set up, right?

So, each of these has been there every time, the betrayel of the adultering program, the theft of the key-maker, the quest for the unreachable floor. An oracle, someone like morpheus, someone like NEO.

It's happened 6 times, exactly the same. Except for this time trinity fell into the mix, by accident, or on purpose? So they're all still around because it wasn't necessary to change them.

If you watch it again with the col. sanders speech in mind, it's riveting whenever people are speaking, but the action made me fall asleep.

[ Parent ]

It 'could be' a big set up... (5.00 / 1) (#157)
by ODiV on Sat May 17, 2003 at 03:57:01 PM EST

who really knows?  I guess it's that that I don't like being left unresolved.

I'm wondering why Neo totally believes Col. Sanders, this guy he just met.  I'm surprised he didn't just rip his head off or something.

My feeling at the end was that it wasn't all a big set up, the end was just a trick, etc...  So I didn't really give much credence to what the Col. was saying, because I had him dismissed as the last attempt of the system at stopping Neo.  Sure, wow, several copies of the Matrix, it's all in flux, wow, who really cares?

I think part of the reason the first movie impressed me so much because I wasn't expecting anything.  I went to see an action/sci-fi with Keanu Reeves.  Also The philosophy ("Dude, what if, like, reality as we know it is just a simulation.") was well presented enough that it added to the movie.  The cinematography and action, the plot and characters, are what really made it.

The action fell a little flat for me as well, especially with Neo, and I think it's mostly because I didn't believe that it was honestly threatening.  You're a fucking God, act like it.

Whatever... I think I'm going to have to see it again to better formulate my thoughts on it.

--
[ odiv.net ]
[ Parent ]

Right on. (4.66 / 3) (#162)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Sat May 17, 2003 at 05:10:00 PM EST

So I didn't really give much credence to what the Col. was saying, because I had him dismissed as the last attempt of the system at stopping Neo.
Yeah, I started spinning that line to my friends as we walked out. That dude was the big BS man designed to do and say anything to stop anyone from going through the next door. "Me, oh, ummm, I'm the Architect, yeah, that's the ticket. And you love Trinity and she is about to die. See I have pictures that are real, because, I mean, how could I fake a picture?"

But then he should have been like, "That door, oh, that is just a closest. Source? Don't know what you mean. But if you need a mop, or some cleaning supplies, I can help you out with those."

And if that dude had control of the matrix and wanted Neo to go through the second door, why didn't he just put a lock on the exit door? "Neo, you have a choice, go through the second door and restart the matrix like I want, or ummm, well, I guess you can stay here and watch T.V. with me. I've got cable."



[ Parent ]

architect isn't the last line of defense (none / 0) (#332)
by fishling on Wed May 21, 2003 at 03:26:08 PM EST

hmmm, my take on the architect was that he got neo to act in exactly the way that he wanted neo to act.  in other words, neo went through exactly the door that they wanted him to go through.  compare again to how neo ended up becoming the one despite what the oracle told him...turns out that she only told him what he needed to hear to set him on the path to believing rather than telling him that he was the one.  so, i think everything is still going according to the grand plan of the matrix (whatever that may be).  and hey, maybe the 7th iteration will end exactly like the other 6 in revolutions....now that would certainly upset the audience.  :-)

[ Parent ]
They don't have the balls. (none / 0) (#334)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Wed May 21, 2003 at 06:19:14 PM EST

and hey, maybe the 7th iteration will end exactly like the other 6 in revolutions....now that would certainly upset the audience.
Like the subject says. It won't happen. Weird twist ending, sure they can get away with that. Mechanistic, humans-loose, tragedy... nope.



[ Parent ]

He's Like That (none / 0) (#333)
by marktaw on Wed May 21, 2003 at 03:36:18 PM EST

Neo has a history of respecting authority figures and battling them on their own turf. If someone spouts psychobabble at him, he fights them verbally... and very poorly. His sparrings with the Oracle were piss poor, for example.

There were 6 other "hopefuls" in the oracle's apartment in the first movie. There were 6 other Neo's... Hmmm. Neo gets a Spoon in Zion.

[ Parent ]

is trinity really new? (none / 0) (#331)
by fishling on Wed May 21, 2003 at 03:22:06 PM EST

oh sure, the architect SAYS that this whole neo-trinity-love thing is new, but why would you take that statement at face value?  look at the first movie...the oracle did the same sort of thing to neo.  she told him right out that he wasn't the one.  also, IIRC, it was supposed to be a neo-or-morpheus deal...one was going to die according to her.  in reloaded, we have the same sort of thing.  i recall the architect telling neo that he wouldn't be able to save trinity either.

anyhow, i don't think you can accept anything that any program says as being truthful.  i think that both the oracle and the architect are just leading neo around by the nose to get him to act in certain ways.  the architect even talks about how easy it is to predict neo's reactions and to see how his brain is working to make these decisions (and we see from the tv monitors in the backround what i consider to be the realm of all possible reactions that neo could have had...note that every version of him made the choice to save trinity).

anyhow, that all aside, i don't think that you can say that this 7th iteration is any different from the other 6 just because the architect said so.  :-)

[ Parent ]

It's all about choice (4.75 / 4) (#185)
by Will Sargent on Sun May 18, 2003 at 12:53:45 AM EST

It's clear that the Architect's speech was at least misleading.  However, the interesting thing is that he made it at all, or that Neo was actually given a choice.  Think about it; the Architect could have lied to him, or simply have lied to him through omission.

Not only that, the Architect manipulated Neo's choice as surely as the Oracle did.  By telling Neo about Trinity's impending death, he knew damn well that Neo's emotion would tip the scales.  Why did he expose the gears and show that there was some seriously complex software dedicated to predicting his actions (the monitors all around Neo), answer his questions, and give him the option of "a free and clear choice" one way or the other?  The only answer I can give is that the Architect doesn't have the option of constraining Neo.  In the same way that Neo is given a choice to leave the Matrix, he must be allowed to choose a door.  

There are some interesting implications behind this, especially if walking through the door is basically the same option as "leaving Zion" or taking the red pill.  The machines may have no ability to harm or kill human beings directly, either in Zion or in the Matrix -- they can convince a human to be dead and they can make a human jump through hoops, but they cannot stop a determined, aware human being from leaving.  All they can do is try to fool him into thinking he doesn't have that choice.
----
I'm pickle. I'm stealing your pregnant.
[ Parent ]

Some thoughts on the Architect's speech (5.00 / 1) (#198)
by Cheetah on Sun May 18, 2003 at 04:03:24 AM EST

A couple observations:
  1. Throughout the movie, the program characters continually refer to previous times through and Neo's predecessors.
  2. There are indications that what are on the monitors are recordings of sorts of past incarnations of Neo.  Note particularly the screen Neos' responses to the Architect saying how many previous Neos there were.
  3. Agent Smith clearly believes that his survival and duplication is something different in this incarnation of the Matrix.
  4. There are indications that many of the program characters survive from Matrix to Matrix.  The Keymaker's essentiality in the plot combined with his death in this iteration of the Matrix indicate that something new is happening.
  5. When Neo leaves him, the Architect states that he can see him making the same choice as his predecessors (right, I think?), and all the Neos in the monitors go the same way as Neo.
  6. The Architect implies that he wants Neo to return to the source and restart the Matrix, but then he deliberately manipulates Neo even more towards the other option via referring to Trinity's fate.
  7. The Oracle's speech has some aspects that I can't quite put my finger on that implied to me that she wasn't necessarily on the side of the machines or the humans, but perhaps was maybe trying to subvert her 'normal purpose' of channeling the One into an alternate purpose of breaking out of the Matrix cycle into a more openly symbiotic relationship.
Summing these up, I think that the Oracle is telling the truth, but skirting and omitting certain aspects.  The Architect is telling mostly the truth, but lying and deceiving on a few key points in order to get Neo to do what he wants him to.  Things have occurred slightly differently in this Matrix than in previous ones, but some of that is by design.  The door through which Neo left must be the one the Architect expected and wanted him to go through.  The reality into which Neo exits must be a different one from the primary Matrix (else why the closing scene with the possessed-by-Smith character), but whether or not it is a real world, considering Neo's miracle act, remains to be seen.  Given the teaser/trailer after the credits, I don't think it is another Matrix, and so Neo enters into the realm of the truly mythical and miraculous.

To me, the key to understanding what's really going on is to explain the inconsistencies in the Architect's and Oracle's speeches, and Neo's miracle act at the end.

Right now I'm hoping that Revolutions returns some of the urgency and desperation to the fights, and resolves these questions in a reasonable, and not cop-out way.  And for crying out loud, loose the B movie group love scenes!  Morpheus' speech wasn't that inspiring.

[ Parent ]

counter-oberservations (none / 0) (#274)
by rantweasel on Mon May 19, 2003 at 03:18:33 PM EST

  1. - agreed completely
  2. - Agent Smith belives, but since he's just a program, how can we (or even he) trust what he knows of previous matrices?  What if this breaking lose is somehow relevant to the system restarting?
  3. - The keymaker's death might not be a huge obstacle, or even indicitave of anything.  Maybe he's restarted with every iteration.  He knew what was happening, and what would happen, and it's clear that the matrix can add or delete or re-create people as needed - look how many people turn into agents.  Why couldn't a keymaker be created everytime the matrix restarts?
mathias

[ Parent ]
Irrelevant choices (none / 0) (#313)
by statusbar on Tue May 20, 2003 at 05:09:34 PM EST

The door through which Neo left must be the one the Architect expected and wanted him to go through
I believe that the architect does not care which door neo goes through. It is all about the illusion of choice. I think that Zion has always been in the Matrix. The architect did not plan, however, for Neo to figure this out.

--jeff++

[ Parent ]

I got all that (none / 0) (#261)
by wurp on Mon May 19, 2003 at 11:02:55 AM EST

It was perfectly clear.  I didn't find it deep or interesting.

The movie sucked.  I think the story could have been good, but the movie they built around it sucked.
---
Buy my stuff
[ Parent ]

Bzzt, this movie is about *appearing* to be cool (4.50 / 8) (#35)
by curien on Fri May 16, 2003 at 07:04:55 AM EST

Neo appears to be cool to everyone around him, but he really isn't. Morpheus appears to be cool for his faith -- but he's wrong (maybe). The Oracle appears to be cool cause she can see the future and guide the resistance -- but she's really a double-crossing whore (maybe). Everyone in Zion appears to be cool when they're in the Matrix, but when you look at them in real life, they're all grungy and shit; definitely not cool.

And Col Sanders appeared to be saying something cool, but he really didn't. In fact, I think he wasn't really saying much of anything at all (except filling us in about the Oracle and the cyclicity of Zion and the Matrix), as I think that the whole two door thing was a hoax -- why the fuck would they put their fate in Neo's hands? Just fucking rape the bastard of his code and be done with it. (That's what the second door was about, btw -- he didn't forsake humanity, he just appears to have done so (which is cool) so that it's easier for the machines to get him).

All in all, the movie tried so hard to appear to be cool (Christina Aguilera video, stupid fuck scene, crappy speech by Morpheus, bullshit cop-out philosophizing at the end, etc etc etc), it just wasn't.

--
Murder your babies. -- R Mutt
[ Parent ]

Ah yes, which brings us to the big question (5.00 / 4) (#65)
by mayo on Fri May 16, 2003 at 11:51:44 AM EST

Do they have to constantly remind us how cool the characters obviously are by having them all wear sunnies indoors? I mean really. Now if you'll excuse me I need to find my sunglasses as I'm off for a late night stroll.

[ Parent ]
Matrix Revolution prediction (5.00 / 4) (#289)
by ZorbaTHut on Mon May 19, 2003 at 08:56:55 PM EST

Morpheus: It's 106 miles to Zion, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.

Neo: Hit it.

[ Parent ]

Bammo! That's what I thought... (none / 0) (#390)
by Shovas on Sun May 25, 2003 at 10:20:05 PM EST

It tried so hard to be cool and do things that would sell.
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
Please. (3.00 / 6) (#264)
by SPYvSPY on Mon May 19, 2003 at 11:13:12 AM EST

Watch the movie again, and pay more attention.

Oh, I see we're taking the old condescending voice off the shelf today, huh? I guess I can expect some polished reasoning below, then. Let's see...

The plot of the whole trilogy (well, based on guesses at number 3 of course) actually is very self-consistent, and especially in this 2nd part, there's a fair amount of complexity.

Whoa! Self-consistent! You got that part right, at least. The Matrix Reloaded is certainly consistent with itself, in that it never made any fucking sense whatsoever, being that it is a middled miasma of half-steps and cliches. And yes, that would be the 'fair amount of complexity' that you tout as if that's inherently a good thing.

While Matrix 1 had a strong plot, it's complexity was that of a saturday morning cartoon.

Again, you seem to think that complexity is an attractive feature in a film. I mean, if you're measuring every movie to some standard of complexity (whatever the hell you mean by complexity), then what the fuck kind of conclusions are you drawing. "Uhhh...this is a good movie, but too easy to understand. I need a more complex film for my complex filmic palate."

Matrix 2's plot is more like a well-orchestrated fugue - however I can certainly see how some people would be bowled over by the speed at which it unfolds (and especially the high-bandwidth dump of plot data from "Col Sanders" at the end - his wordiness, style, and hasty speech make it difficult to follow (and I might add, I love how his voice was halfway between agent smith and an old-school text to speech voice)) and just write it off as a bunch of crap that makes no sense.

Aside from being the single worst-constructed sentence in the history of graphic writing, the tripe above is (like everything you have to say) devoid of substance. Bonus points for comparing the Matrix to a 'well-orchestrated' fugue, and for mixing a classical music metaphor with a bowling metaphor. The double parenthetical is another bonus. Shall we run your crummy, condescending prose through a compiler and see how useless it really is? Wait for the DVD and a transcript so you can slow it down and comprehend it all.

Fuck you, too. You're just another pencil-dick, low-IQ jarhead that thinks the Matrix is a modern-day revelation. The fact that you would have the audacity to talk down to other people indicates that you are as arrogant as you are witless.
------------------------------------------------

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[ Parent ]

The CleverNickname Wannabe Character... (5.00 / 4) (#20)
by DLWormwood on Fri May 16, 2003 at 02:06:26 AM EST

...is, I think, supposed to be a tie-in with one of the shorts in the Animatrix, "Kid's Story." Likewise, there's a reference to the Osiris early on. Kind of a dirty trick to have this movie, with those loose ends, coming out before the Animatrix came out on DVD.

I, too, was disappointed with this film, but for a different reason. It felt like a half of a film. This reminds me of how Back To The Future was handled; it was also done as an "instant trilogy," with Parts II and III done at once to cash in on the first movie's surprise success. The storyline for Reloaded and Revolutions probably could have fit into one film, but producers were blinded by the dollar signs.

Yes, I too thought the pagan festival/sex scene was pointless. It was PaddingTM worthy of the MST3K treatment. I can just hear Joel and the 'Bots singing... "It's chesta-a-mammical, testular-boobular, fun for girl and boy!"
--
Those who complain about affect & effect on k5 should be disemvoweled

The Rave scene was really funny (none / 0) (#52)
by sien on Fri May 16, 2003 at 09:40:22 AM EST

Hey, c'mon. It was great. The speech - 'it's the end of the world people - so let's party down' was so funny.

Anyways, the Warchowskis should be appreciated for what they are - great at making images, and the images of that scene were beautiful.

[ Parent ]

Matrix was written as a trilogy to begin with... (none / 0) (#166)
by Imperfect on Sat May 17, 2003 at 06:30:05 PM EST

...dope. =)

Not perfect, not quite.
[ Parent ]
There's a trilogy and then there's a TRILOGY (none / 0) (#169)
by DLWormwood on Sat May 17, 2003 at 07:16:34 PM EST

I think you've mis-understood what I meant by "instant." The first Star Wars trilogy wasn't made in by doubling-up like The Matrix and Back To The Future series were. (Instant: as in, from 1 film to a full trilogy, with little time for a 2 film stage.) Even though all three "Part II" films ended on a lingering note, the fact that Empire and Return were made separately instead of at once made a difference in the quality, with Empire being considered the best Star Wars film to date.

The Lord Of The Rings trilogy that's being finished up now seems to have avoided some of the pitfalls that comes with parallel production, but that may have been simply due to the trilogy's content already existing and being fully understood for decades... Even so, the latter two films seem have deviated from the original content, pacing-wise, in a manner that upset some purists.
--
Those who complain about affect & effect on k5 should be disemvoweled
[ Parent ]

+1 FP (4.44 / 9) (#22)
by Kasreyn on Fri May 16, 2003 at 02:46:05 AM EST

Because you actually know the name of a REAL film music composer:

"It was so much more appropriate, a subtle, forboding techno undercurrent instead of a clumsy attempt at a classical Hollywood score that veered all over the stylistic map, from Bernard Hermann to Phillip Glass"

This shows you know something about the actual guts of what makes a movie good, unlike most. I don't care about what your opinion is, actually. I'm just ecstatic to find a review that actually MENTIONS the score. Apparently some people are deaf, and are unable to detect the fact that in (some, used to be most) movies, there is also music playing in the background.

Still, it made me wince to see Herrmann mentioned in the same sentence with Glass. =P


-Kasreyn,

film music otaku


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
The Hours (5.00 / 1) (#178)
by carlossch on Sat May 17, 2003 at 11:42:46 PM EST

... made me want to freaking shoot some of the theater loudspeakers, because THE FREAKING SOUNDTRACK WAS JUST TOO DAMN LOUD! To me, Phillip Glass sounds like nothing but a pretentious prick.

Good scores are the ones from Kubrick movies. Period :)

Carlos
I was once told that I'm always wrong. Is this still true?
[ Parent ]

Heh... (none / 0) (#186)
by ktakki on Sun May 18, 2003 at 01:05:10 AM EST

Good scores are the ones from Kubrick movies. Period :)
Funny you should mention Kubrick (one of my favorite directors) and scoring: he had a reputation as a "needle dropper", someone who prefers to license a pre-existing recording of a classical work rather than collaborate with a composer.

Yes, he has worked with soundtrack composers, like Wendy Carlos on Clockwork Orange and Laurie Johnson on Strangelove, but some of his most memorable scenes are set to non-original music, like the shuttle docking scene in 2001 (Strauss's Blue Danube Waltz). According to an interview with Carlos, most of her score for one of his movies (The Shining, IIRC) was replaced by licensed classical recordings.


k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

[ Parent ]

Oh well (none / 0) (#218)
by carlossch on Sun May 18, 2003 at 02:48:55 PM EST

I didn't say I liked the composers. I said the score kicked ass :)

But really, take every first scene from the Kubrick movies, and pay attention to the sound (I know you probably already did). The best example to me is the opening of A Clockwork Orange, but I believe he also worked with Ligeti in The Shining. He could've used previous works, though (like Atmospheres, in 2001)

Carlos
I was once told that I'm always wrong. Is this still true?
[ Parent ]

**SPOILER** (none / 0) (#25)
by TheModerate on Fri May 16, 2003 at 03:33:48 AM EST

He's not Cournal Sanders for Christ's sake! He's God, damn it!

But your article was funny so I give you a zero.

"What a man has in himself is, then, the chief element in his happiness." -- Schopenhauer

Oh? I thought he was the Glad Garbage Man (nt) (5.00 / 1) (#45)
by Stavr0 on Fri May 16, 2003 at 09:00:18 AM EST


- - -
Pax Americana : Oderint Dum Metuant
[ Parent ]
He's exactly like every software architect (5.00 / 3) (#62)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 16, 2003 at 11:16:23 AM EST

I've ever met, including me.

Pompous, dismissive of potential bugs and very sure of himself.


--
Fishing for Men, Trolling for Newbies, what's the difference?


[ Parent ]
I resemble that remark! (none / 0) (#86)
by wiredog on Fri May 16, 2003 at 03:41:11 PM EST



Wilford Brimley scares my chickens.
Phil the Canuck

[ Parent ]
The key difference between Matrix 1 (4.06 / 16) (#27)
by starsky on Fri May 16, 2003 at 04:43:19 AM EST

and Matrix 2, and why 1 'is the best thing in the world ever' and 2 'sucks':

It's because 1 was *relatively* unknown, so nerds could see it, masturbate over its oh so clever world view and tell everyone how great it was and for the first time since Star Wars feel they are cool.

Now everyone is into the Matrix and the geeks don't like that - its lost its exclusivity and therefore they return to their mommas basement, alone to whine about M$ and dream about actually *programming some open source code* rather than just telling people about it.

This is /. I'm on, right?

Movie Making and Pacing (none / 0) (#183)
by cam on Sun May 18, 2003 at 12:09:50 AM EST

Now everyone is into the Matrix and the geeks don't like that

It was just a poorly done movie. It was poorly paced, it was all over the shop, had a bunch of superflous scenes that had nothing to do with the resolution of the film, it just stopped at the end with a "to be continued". In the cinema I saw it in, there was a chorus of "Oh what"'s.

cam
Freedom, Liberty, Equity and an Australian Republic
[ Parent ]

your first paragraph... (4.50 / 6) (#28)
by grahamtastic42 on Fri May 16, 2003 at 05:28:40 AM EST

Totally discounts the rest of your review. If you "love movies" but hate movie theatres then you won't like any movies you see there except for the really briliant ones. So all you are saying is that this movie isn't brlliant. I doubt that anyone expected it to be so but I doubt more that it means that it sucked. It may have but I hope nobody here takes your word for it.

you know (4.58 / 12) (#37)
by circletimessquare on Fri May 16, 2003 at 07:50:35 AM EST

i can barely deal with the geekoids who take movies so seriously they embrace it like a religion

but this a new low: the geekoid who takes movies so so seriously he actually has the free time to grouse this much about how he doesn't like it

feeling dejected by the matrix sequel?

repeat after me:

it's

just

a

movie


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

That's supposed to be: (5.00 / 5) (#92)
by losthalo on Fri May 16, 2003 at 04:25:30 PM EST

There

is

no

movie.

(Losthalo)

[ Parent ]

lol (5.00 / 4) (#96)
by circletimessquare on Fri May 16, 2003 at 05:16:52 PM EST

welcome

to

the

desert

of

the

movie


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Sure there is... (none / 0) (#167)
by DoctorB on Sat May 17, 2003 at 06:31:53 PM EST

When I first heard that there was going to be a sequel, I remember joking with a friend about how in it, we would find out that everything in the first was a lie. That Trinity is a man, etc. But most importantly, we would discover that there is, in fact, a spoon. Lo and behold, The Matrix : Reloaded gives us a spoon.

[ Parent ]
"I have this really neat trick - (none / 0) (#315)
by losthalo on Tue May 20, 2003 at 08:30:56 PM EST

...but I can only do it once!"

You can only do the "The whole universe was a lie, this is what's really been happening!" trick once before audiences get pissy.

"When someone forces us to change our mind about him, we hold the inconveneince he causes us very much against him." and all that...

Woe to them if the spoon turns out to once again be a not-spoon...

(Losthalo)

[ Parent ]
it's (none / 0) (#250)
by synaesthesia on Mon May 19, 2003 at 05:35:41 AM EST

just

a

review

(it's just a comment, etc.)


Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

what's even funnier... (none / 0) (#259)
by rayedar on Mon May 19, 2003 at 10:39:44 AM EST

... is the geekoid who takes movies so so seriously he actually has the free time to grouse ABOUT the guy who grouses this much about how he doesn't like it. oh, that and the guy who grouses about the guy who grouses about the guy who grouses. that would be me. damn! -R

[ Parent ]
Minor nit (5.00 / 1) (#40)
by jayhawk88 on Fri May 16, 2003 at 08:29:23 AM EST

The original Matrix was most definitely a summer blockbuster as well; it was hyped no end throughout the first part of 99 as one of the summers biggest movies. Its not like this movie just came out of nowhere here.

Why, then, should we grant government the Orwellian capability to listen at will and in real time to our communications across the Web? -- John Ashcroft
I liked the movie (4.66 / 6) (#42)
by wiredog on Fri May 16, 2003 at 08:51:25 AM EST

It wasn't great but then, few movies are. How many approach Casablanca, Lawrence of Arabia, orCitizen Kane levels of greatness? Damned few. But it is a good movie. Worth the $6 for the matinee. And more complex than the reviewer seems to have realized. I like pdc's comment about Neo being the opposite of Muad Dib.

Keanu Reeves is a good choice for the part of Neo. As Stephen hunter said in his review: "Keanu Reeves: still blankly Zen beautiful, the perfect vessel of hopes and dreams. If this young man ever learned how to act, he'd be dangerous."

Not as good as the first movie, (reviewed here), but not bad.

Wilford Brimley scares my chickens.
Phil the Canuck

Citizen Kane ain't all it's cracked up to be. [nt] (none / 0) (#379)
by waxmop on Sat May 24, 2003 at 06:19:32 PM EST


--
We are a monoculture of horsecock. Liar
[ Parent ]
Perhaps but... (none / 0) (#381)
by marktaw on Sun May 25, 2003 at 12:23:03 AM EST

Casablanca and Lawrence of Arabia are truly masterpieces.

[ Parent ]
Reenactment (3.54 / 11) (#43)
by K5 ASCII reenactment players on Fri May 16, 2003 at 08:52:19 AM EST

Hey!  This is just teh rip off of Max Payne!
          /
    ####
   /  ##
   =-=-#
  /_   |
    O  |
   \__/


'teh' is funny once (1.50 / 2) (#201)
by Shren on Sun May 18, 2003 at 04:35:03 AM EST

You're not funny. Shut up.

[ Parent ]
As opposed to you? (1.00 / 2) (#202)
by tkatchev on Sun May 18, 2003 at 05:28:26 AM EST

So shut up.

   -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.
[ Parent ]

-1, This Review Made Me Want Amputate My Eyes (3.87 / 16) (#50)
by thelizman on Fri May 16, 2003 at 09:28:21 AM EST

Why did you spend half the essay talking about shit not even related to the Matrix? And then, you spotlight neo and trinity bumping uglies as one of the only good parts of the film? How about you go get a porno film, and stay home for another few years.
--

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
-1, Reviewer on crack. (3.53 / 13) (#53)
by SamuraiJack on Fri May 16, 2003 at 09:42:57 AM EST



I think you're off (5.00 / 4) (#55)
by Silent Chris on Fri May 16, 2003 at 10:11:18 AM EST

The Wachowski Brothers original described the first movie as "robots vs. kung fu".  Reloaded takes that idea and works it.  People going into the movie and expecting the second coming, whether through hype or their own misinterpretation of the first movie, are definitely going to be disappointed.  It's not a cerebral movie, and it's not meant to be.

As a flick, it was good.  An an action flick, it was clearly one of the better ones in the genre.  As a sci-fi kung fu vs. robots with occassional bits of philosophy and religion thrown in flick, it's the best I've ever seen.

+1 Christmas (3.00 / 4) (#60)
by bugmaster on Fri May 16, 2003 at 11:04:32 AM EST

I can live without seeing Neo reveal the True Meaning of Christmas to all the good little girls and boys of Zion.
I was going to "0" this article, until I read that one line. It made my day.
Kids: Mr. The One, sir, are you Santa Claus ?
Neo: ... Whoa.
For some reason that's really funny... Maybe I just have an overactive imagination.
>|<*:=
whoa whoa whoa, merry christmas! [nt] (5.00 / 1) (#124)
by tang gnat on Sat May 17, 2003 at 12:35:33 AM EST



[ Parent ]
Sweet Creeping Baby Jesus! (none / 0) (#164)
by DoctorB on Sat May 17, 2003 at 06:02:35 PM EST

Kids: Mr. The One, sir, are you Santa Claus ?

Neo: No, but I am the Messiah, and that's what Christmas is all about!

[ Parent ]
Crap or Brilliant? We don't know yet. (4.71 / 7) (#63)
by jmzero on Fri May 16, 2003 at 11:26:26 AM EST

We won't really find out until the third movie.  

Remember when you thought X-Files was cool, when you thought that somehow they were going to tie this all together and it was all going to make sense and that was going to be amazing.  

Then remember seeing the movie and realizing "they have no idea, they're jerking us around because they have no idea how to end this".

Remember pretty much every Stephen King book ever written - how things build and twist and grow until the crushing finally of "uhh, then everyone dies and stuff".

If, somehow, they can end Revolution with a real revelation then the whole trilogy will have been amazing.  If it ends with something contrived, that doesn't make some things make sense (and there's plenty of things that don't make sense now), then it'll be a painful letdown.  

Judging by the dialog quality and the lack of flair in Reloaded, I'm leaning towards painful letdown.  There's still a chance, though, that they'll tie this together into something satisfying - and all the suckiness will be explained and irrelevant.

.
"Let's not stir that bag of worms." - my lovely wife

That makes me think of-- (none / 0) (#93)
by losthalo on Fri May 16, 2003 at 04:32:23 PM EST

the ending to The Ring.  That movie built up so well until it got close to the ending.  Then it unravelled like a cheap concert T-shirt.

It'll be nice if the Matrix sequels live up to the expectations being made for them, but it's not likely.

(I haven't seen Reloaded yet.)

(Losthalo)

"People buy holes, not drill bits."
(Peter Deutsch)

[ Parent ]

Dude. It's a kung fu movie. (3.50 / 6) (#64)
by Work on Fri May 16, 2003 at 11:45:51 AM EST

Albeit an expensive one, but its still a kung fu movie. Don't expect much out of it.

Whiny nerd bickering. -1.

Generic New York (5.00 / 3) (#68)
by eSolutions on Fri May 16, 2003 at 12:27:41 PM EST

An Australian city was used instead of a digital matte painting of a generic New York.

Neo's home city was Chicago, as the street names indicate. Whether or not Chicago is a generic New York is left as an exercise to the reader.

Yrs n Xst,
eSlz.

----
Making periods more convenient -- one box at a time.
--Tampax Commercial

They shot several scenes in Chicago [nt] (none / 0) (#94)
by delusion on Fri May 16, 2003 at 04:45:09 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Wachoski's are from Chicago. (none / 0) (#122)
by Work on Sat May 17, 2003 at 12:30:34 AM EST

Little bit of trivia there. Thats why some of the streets are named in such a fashion.

Really though, "Metropolitan City" is supposed to be a little bit of every major metro in the world.

[ Parent ]

yeah... (none / 0) (#284)
by delusion on Mon May 19, 2003 at 06:23:10 PM EST

An acquantance of mine knows them. His dad used to be their landlord before they made the matrix. Nice guys, they let him borrow all their games. They have a lot. They're huge geeks, it's great they have achieved their sucess.

[ Parent ]
As an action movie it was shit (4.42 / 7) (#69)
by enterfornone on Fri May 16, 2003 at 12:51:54 PM EST

A lot of people are saying that M:R had a shitty plot but was good as an action movie. It wasn't, it was a crap action movie. Most of the action scenes were way too long and monotonous (eg Neo vs multiple Smiths, Neo vs the French). The one decent action scene (the car chase) didn't even feature the main character and what should have been the movies main action scene (shutting down the power station) was cut to shit.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
Power Station / Emergency Backup / Magic Door (none / 0) (#110)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Fri May 16, 2003 at 09:46:25 PM EST

I have a feeling, although I haven't confirmed it yet, that these three missions make up the bulk of the Matrix game that just came out.

Tim
"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

Nope. (none / 0) (#223)
by geekmug on Sun May 18, 2003 at 06:10:25 PM EST

The matrix game mostly takes place before this installment. Only the last couple levels involve the movie.

The oracle gives a speech about a plague Assumedly, Agent Smith since the cut-scene cuts over to him poking a dude in the chest. And she keeps spouting out, "it's too soon.."



-- Why reinvent the square wheel?
[ Parent ]
lies... (none / 0) (#256)
by shdwstkr on Mon May 19, 2003 at 09:32:16 AM EST

...all lies.  alright, maybe not all.

I'm only a few hours into the game, but I can safely say that it's not only the last few levels that involve the movie.  But it's not super direct involvement, just a passing connection (so far.)

my 2c.

[ Parent ]

Best ending to Revolutions (5.00 / 7) (#70)
by Skywise on Fri May 16, 2003 at 12:57:01 PM EST

While discussing the movie afterwards my friends and I came up with this ultimate ending:

Oracle: "This is all a dream Neo.  Everything is a dream.  There's no place like home."

Neo: [waking up after sleeping on a desk] "Whoa"!

Bill:  "C'mon Ted, we'll be late for school again and your dad will send you to the military academy!"

Neo:  "Whoa!"

(I really, really, REALLY hope that Revolutions doesn't end this way, or with the "real world"  still being inside a computer generated reality.  If so, it would The Matrix would immediately drop to Highlander level.)

matrix within a matrix (5.00 / 4) (#75)
by Burning Straw Man on Fri May 16, 2003 at 01:43:11 PM EST

Some friends espoused this notion as well. However that would just be a completely blatant rip-off of The Thirteenth Floor.

Now if you'll excuse me, Equilibrium was released on DVD this week. I've heard it is extremely good.
--
your straw man is on fire...
[ Parent ]

thirteenth floor, existenz, videodrome (spoilers) (none / 0) (#393)
by JonDowland on Mon May 26, 2003 at 03:22:35 PM EST

heh, I've mentioned 13th floor in response to such a plot myself, but unfortunately that totally spoils the film for anyone who hasn't seen it :( ExistenZ is a film with a similar device, and I am led to believe videodrome is too (although from what I've seen that may not be true). Although I can't think of any more examples in the film industry, as far as literature goes, its a hackneyed concept.

[ Parent ]
hail to the thief (none / 0) (#398)
by Burning Straw Man on Tue May 27, 2003 at 11:18:01 AM EST

Checked out your homepage and saw that you live in Durham. Unfortunately I'm guessing that's Durham, UK, not Durham, NC, US where I live :)

I've had my "Hail to the Thief" on pre-order for ages it seems. Less than a month to go before I get it. Where did you get it early enough to listen to it before the Easter holiday?
--
your straw man is on fire...
[ Parent ]

Hail to the Thief (none / 0) (#405)
by JonDowland on Tue May 27, 2003 at 06:29:15 PM EST

A prerelease was leaked to the internet, and I quite a few of my friends are hardcore radiohead fans, thats how I heard it so early. I think the version I heard was incomplete though.

[ Parent ]
eXistenZ was coo (n/t) (none / 0) (#411)
by Liet on Thu May 29, 2003 at 08:43:41 AM EST



[ Parent ]
Sad lack of Bill and Ted... (none / 0) (#176)
by yami on Sat May 17, 2003 at 08:55:17 PM EST

I spent the whole scene with the multiple-vidscreen-humanity searching for a clip from Bill and Ted. It's the perfect place for a silly reference, but I didn't notice any.

How long until the origins and possible pop culture reference points of all those clips are exposed by a pack of internet obsessive-compulsives?

___
Like an inside-out space zebra.
[ Parent ]

Dude! That ending is totally excellent! (nt) (none / 0) (#195)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Sun May 18, 2003 at 03:09:36 AM EST



[ Parent ]
Shit -1 (4.00 / 3) (#71)
by The Devil on Fri May 16, 2003 at 01:03:44 PM EST

I -1 this because it said the Matrix sucked. Then I read it. Damn I wish I could put it back to +1 FP.

This is the funniest review I've read in a while. I don't agree with any of it, but damn! It's funny as hell! :)

Personally, the Matrix was all that and then some. It did it for me... it was significantly better than the first one. They overdid the budget but hey... I'm not complaining about someone spending money.

I was pleased to be let into Zion more. It was so mysterious in the first one. And Lucas... I made the connection with the guys in the Mechs. Remember when Anakin landed in the Trade Federation hangar? Those mechs reminded me of that.

Anyway... it was a hell of a good movie, regardless of what this hater reviewer says. :)

I give it 5/5 for my satisfaction. Who gives a shit about fancy film points, or whatever. Want that? Go see a play. This was a motion picture, and it was a damn fine one.

heh (none / 0) (#165)
by ebatsky on Sat May 17, 2003 at 06:25:28 PM EST

That's what you get for moderating stories based on your agreement with them rather than the content. You are the perfect example why kuro5hin voting system is nowhere close to 'perfect'.

[ Parent ]
Maybe... (none / 0) (#213)
by The Devil on Sun May 18, 2003 at 01:24:38 PM EST

But if you think about it, for everyone who mods something off-the-cuff, there is someone else who does it right. It was a mistake that I made and I've learned my lesson because I kinda wanted to vote that story up.

It wouldn't be a hard change for them to let you change votes after the fact until voting is over.

Switching votes would be like 4 lines of PHP.

I believe the reason they freeze your vote and don't let you see the results before you vote, is to limit the "me too!" sway.

[ Parent ]

Here's what I think about : <movie> (4.00 / 4) (#79)
by Gandhian Rage on Fri May 16, 2003 at 02:46:37 PM EST

Self-adulation

Pompous remark about the the previous installment.

It was a little bit of this, not enough of that, too much of that, and nothing just right.



---
I am the protector of Rusty.
X2 was way better than the first one (none / 0) (#80)
by simul on Fri May 16, 2003 at 02:48:33 PM EST

If you feel compelled to blow $$$ on a coporate hollywood billion-dollar suckfest waste of time... go see the X-men sequel.

It's not half bad.

Read this book - first 24 pages are free to browse - it rocks

I'm glad I'm not the only one (4.66 / 3) (#83)
by frankwork on Fri May 16, 2003 at 03:19:30 PM EST

...that thought the movie was lousy. I actually saw the thing up in Canada on Wednesday night (It says something when you live in the U.S. and the closest good theatre is in another country). I submitted an article to the edit queue Thursday morning and then went back and read it once I got to work.

After reading a couple of other reviews (both relatively glowing), I thought, "maybe I'm just being too negative from lack of sleep," and cancelled my submission.

I have to cut it some slack since it's only half a movie, but there's a lot of filler in there that could have been cut in order to fit the movie into the first hour and a half of a longish single movie. So here's the condensed version of my review (which curiously had the same title as this one):

Did anyone else notice how Morpheus' speech to the congregation sounded really rushed? Clearly...Morpheus is...best...when he speaks with randomly inserted dramatic...pauses. All this to make room for five minutes of writhing bodies. Some things were needlessly shortened to make room for a lot of things that were needlessly drawn out. All in all, not much happens in the 130-odd minutes in the movie.

And Neo's powers got to the point of ridiculous. I like how in the first movie the laws of physics were bent (lower gravity, superhuman strength) rather than broken. When he's flying around like superman, you've got this constant sense of impending deus ex machina, where he can get out of any situation by having the Wachowski's invent a new trick for him. But I don't feel like my CDN$13.95 was totally wasted. I just hope (not to optimistically) that they tie it all together in a non-cheezy way for the final installment.

Location (3.00 / 2) (#85)
by Politburo on Fri May 16, 2003 at 03:29:28 PM EST

It says something when you live in the U.S. and the closest good theatre is in another country

No it doesn't, unless that thing is "the Canadian dollar is still worth less than the US dollar." I live in NJ, and go to a theatre in NY state. Why? Because it's the closest theatre that fits my parameters. I'm sure the same reason applies to you. It doesn't make Canada any better or the US any worse. It's just your location. Now if you had qualified this and said you live in Alabama, *then* it says something.

[ Parent ]
Neo's powers (5.00 / 1) (#91)
by enterfornone on Fri May 16, 2003 at 04:21:58 PM EST

I think Neo's powers make sense given that he's meant to be pretty much all powerful. Remember in Matrix 1 Morpheus says that the original One could reshape the Matrix pretty much as they saw fit.

What doesn't make sense is that Morpheus and Trinity now have the power to go hand to hand with the agents, something they couldn't do in the first movie.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]

I think you over estimate Morpheus and Trinity. (5.00 / 3) (#103)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 16, 2003 at 06:36:53 PM EST

In the first movie, the rule was that no one ever survived facing an Agent until Neo. In the second movie, Morpheus and Trinity did survive - but only because Neo saved them each time.

OTOH, since power in the Matrix is a function of faith, perhaps being with Neo has boosted their belief in their own powers.


--
Fishing for Men, Trolling for Newbies, what's the difference?


[ Parent ]
faith and power in the matrix (4.00 / 1) (#249)
by suntzu on Mon May 19, 2003 at 04:26:11 AM EST

i don't think it's really faith based. that was the idea i had at first, but for a number of reasons, i now think it's based on intuition (for lack of a better word). i think that neo is inherently more prone to have a good intuition about what can be manipulated and how in the matrix. and i think that, in the same way morpheus helped neo find his "intuition" (or whatever you want to call it), some of neo's ability can "rub off" on morpheus, trinity, and others.

this sort of flows well with comments about the oracle being neo's mother (not literally, but that she had the idea of "the one"), and the oracle being a more intuitive program than the rigorously logical architect.

maybe i'm reading too much into it, but one of the things i really like is the ability to read so much into the universe with so much consistency.

[ Parent ]

Powers. (4.00 / 1) (#109)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Fri May 16, 2003 at 08:53:53 PM EST

And Neo's powers got to the point of ridiculous.
Actually, I thought his powers were pretty lame during most all of the movie. I mean, he should have been reading comic books and trying to reproduce any and every power he could. He didn't have any heat vision, telekinesis, teleportation, or the ability to pop out of the matrix without an exit point. Only in the course of the movie did he start flying really really fast and "ghosting" through solid matter. Seems to me that he was just wasting those 6 months between the two movies.



[ Parent ]

Neo's Powers (and general movie comments) (5.00 / 1) (#132)
by ODiV on Sat May 17, 2003 at 02:40:15 AM EST

If anything, I'd say Neo's Powers were severely downgraded.  At the end of the first film he can take the agents on no problem.  Immediately after finding out he's "the one" he's taking Smith one handed.  They say something about "upgrades" in this one, but I don't think that adequately explains everything.  He's supposed to be able to reshape the Matrix as he sees fit.  Why doesn't he just stop the agents in mid-air or something?  The long drawn out fights with The Smiths and the French thugs seemed completely useless given what I was understanding Neo's powers as at the end of the first.

And off topic, wtf is with werewolves and ghosts?  Why are we bringing that into it?

And finally, why do I get the feeling that we're supposed to think one thing at the end (we're in the 6th iteration of the 99% good Matrix, and Neo has to go to the source to restart it or whatever), but that makes _no_ sense given information we already have (there's tonnes of rogue programs out there that are from other, less perfect versions of the Matrix, why are they still there if the source was restarted and we're on the 6th iteration of the 99% good Matrix?).

All in all, I guess this is just half a movie.  We don't get an explanation, really.  At the end of the first one, I knew exactly what's going on.  At the end of this one, I'm not exactly sure.  And call me dense, but I think that's the fault of the filmmakers.

--
[ odiv.net ]
[ Parent ]

recursive (none / 0) (#152)
by WetherMan on Sat May 17, 2003 at 01:15:28 PM EST

I was thinking that perhaps the matrix's haven't been restarted, but they're.. recursive, ie at the end when neo uses his new powers, he's really in another matrix, etc.  Following that, Matrix Revolutions can be about neo breaking through the layers to the first "perfect" matrix, and destroying that at the source, while the 7th Zion battles away at the machines.

[ Parent ]
I think (none / 0) (#153)
by Rahaan on Sat May 17, 2003 at 01:44:14 PM EST

That that is the only plausible explanation - how could the machines just simply stop (and then restart, via Neo) another Matrix?  What would happen in the time period between them, where there was none?  How could the people still be kept in the dark?  And how could they 'transfer' the podded humans from one matrix to another without them somehow being recursive?  All of these questions (along with Neo's actions at the end of the movie) lead me to believe that there is some kind of recursion with the matrix concept.


you know, jake.. i've noticed that, since the tacos started coming, the mail doesn't so much come as often, or even at all
[ Parent ]
Really.. (none / 0) (#155)
by Rahaan on Sat May 17, 2003 at 01:51:42 PM EST

All in all, I guess this is just half a movie.  We don't get an explanation, really.  At the end of the first one, I knew exactly what's going on.  At the end of this one, I'm not exactly sure.  And call me dense, but I think that's the fault of the filmmakers.
You were totally satisfied at the end of The Matrix?  I had a bunch of questions which I hoped would be answered in any sequel (and for the most part, they were) - I wanted to know what the deal with the Oracle was, if she were human or not, and if so, why she wasn't (or couldn't be contacted) in Zion.

I wanted to know who Morpheus was talking about when he mentioned the first person to reject the matrix - how he had powers to bend it, where they came from, and what started the chain-reaction of minds being freed.  I wanted to know why the machines didn't just attack Zion, but instead were searching for 'mainframe codes'.

The Matrix:  Reloaded leaves a similar feeling of ambiguity - while the movie's major plot is concluded, it raises many questions and leaves the potential for a more detailed ending, akin to The Empire Strikes Back.  It could have been more inclusive with the details, but hopefully the third installation of the trilogy will conclude the storyline (as is implied by the 'To Be Concluded..' ending) and the major holes in the second part are left to be deduced as an exercise for the viewer.


you know, jake.. i've noticed that, since the tacos started coming, the mail doesn't so much come as often, or even at all
[ Parent ]

I was satisfied (none / 0) (#158)
by ODiV on Sat May 17, 2003 at 04:04:39 PM EST

The oracle is the oracle.  Mysterious by nature.  

The first person to reject the Matrix was explained well enough, I thought.  We know what happened with him, generally.  It would've been nice to see a prequel or something, sure, but not necessary for this film.

For some reason, I got the feeling in the first film that the machines just didn't know where Zion was.  I'll have to watch it again, maybe I'm wrong.

All in all, the first film felt like a self contained package.  Sure we wanted to know "What comes next." and we wanted to know more about the world of the matrix (like the oracle).  Curiosity isn't so bad, it's good to leave the audience thinking about the film, wondering about certain things.  But leaving the ambiguity that they did in Reloaded just seems a little too much.  The main conflict of the movie is unresolved.  I guess it just felt like a hollow victory for me (most of the fighting did as well, come to think of it).

I don't know what I'm talking about.  I'm no film reviewer.  Hopefully I'm making some sense in expressing how I feel about it.

--
[ odiv.net ]
[ Parent ]

It's still the 2nd Matrix (none / 0) (#312)
by matthead on Tue May 20, 2003 at 02:26:27 PM EST

The Architect didn't say the Matrix had been restarted, did he?  He was just saying the Zion cycle had gone by six times already.  This is still the second Matrix - the first one being the perfect world that didn't work out for whatever reason (I still don't think anyone's given a real explanation for why any innate human imperfection ruined that world).

Anyway, Neo is the seventh "one," and the Zion we saw is the seventh refuge from the Matrix, but unless I'm forgetting a key piece of dialog, nobody said this was the seventh Matrix.

And while it was left too unfinished to be a real movie, at least the third part comes in November, not sometime in 2006.  And if that chapter disappoints you, then you get to see Return of the King in December.   :)
--
- Matt
I'm at (-3.1, -5.0). Where are you?
[ Parent ]

Doesn't Neo restart the source? (none / 0) (#320)
by ODiV on Wed May 21, 2003 at 02:27:37 AM EST

I thought it was a large part of why he was there. It's the same version, yeah, but it's the 7th run of it or whatever. I'm not huge on the LOTR films for whatever reason. They're certainly good as The Matrix Reloaded was good, but they don't make my top 100.

--
[ odiv.net ]
[ Parent ]
errr, Neo doesn't, the previous ones do (nt) (none / 0) (#321)
by ODiV on Wed May 21, 2003 at 02:29:56 AM EST



--
[ odiv.net ]
[ Parent ]
i thought (none / 0) (#327)
by StackyMcRacky on Wed May 21, 2003 at 12:08:48 PM EST

return of the king was pushed back to May 2004?



[ Parent ]
That really freaked me out (none / 0) (#193)
by jreilly on Sun May 18, 2003 at 02:50:51 AM EST

Did anyone else notice how Morpheus' speech to the congregation sounded really rushed? Clearly...Morpheus is...best...when he speaks with randomly inserted dramatic...pauses.

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but I thought this stuck out like a sore thumb. Around a week before last Thursday, when I saw the movie, I saw Fishburne (the actor who playes Morpheus) in Othello, and he's a better actor than that. He's quite capable of delivering a good monologue. I really have to wonder what the directors were thinking.

Oooh, shiny...
[ Parent ]
I'm surprised.... (none / 0) (#351)
by Kintanon on Thu May 22, 2003 at 04:30:34 PM EST

That no one else caught this.
Morpheus was reading a prepared speech given to him by the council. He wasn't allowed to give the brutally honest speech he wanted. The stiff awkward sounding monologue was supposed to indicate this.
They were using Morpheus as a figurehead to deliver a pacifying speech assuring the citizens of victory to avoid panic.

Kintanon

[ Parent ]

But wait... (none / 0) (#352)
by marktaw on Thu May 22, 2003 at 05:13:39 PM EST

Morpheus did tell them what he wanted to tell them. Remember there was fear people would panic if he told them the truth about the approaching sentinals, and he said if he told them the truth they wouldn't panic... And they didn't panic.

Also Neo flew in the first movie too.

[ Parent ]

I got a different impression... (none / 0) (#353)
by Kintanon on Thu May 22, 2003 at 05:25:46 PM EST

I got the impression that it was a compromise, Morpheus saying "The Sentinels are coming, but everything will be fine." instead of "There are 250,000 sentinels burrowing into the ground right towards us at this moment. In 24 hours, you could all be dead."

I kind of felt that Morpheus wanted to be a little more pessimistic about the attack and the military fellow wanted to play up their ability to beat the attack back. And the speech was the result of that optimistic voice.
Because it certainly didn't SOUND like Morpheus.

Kintanon

[ Parent ]

Ok I give (none / 0) (#354)
by marktaw on Thu May 22, 2003 at 06:11:55 PM EST

You're right, It wasn't your typical Morpheus speech. I guess I was thrown off becuase I'd seen a clip of that speech before I saw the movie and while it was going on was trying my best to block out the memory of the clip from my mind.

[ Parent ]
If you *do* see the movie (4.80 / 5) (#84)
by frankwork on Fri May 16, 2003 at 03:20:54 PM EST

Go take a piss during the closing credits and come back, because I guess they have a few scenes from the final movie that they show after the closing credits.

Yep. (5.00 / 1) (#106)
by BigZaphod on Fri May 16, 2003 at 07:56:17 PM EST

I can verify that.  It's worth the wait.

"We're all patients, there are no doctors, our meds ran out a long time ago and nobody loves us." - skyknight
[ Parent ]
Oi! (none / 0) (#111)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Fri May 16, 2003 at 09:50:28 PM EST

Can either of you take a look at this and see if they are the same scenes?

Tim
"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

Mirror (none / 0) (#112)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Fri May 16, 2003 at 09:51:10 PM EST

Try here too.

Tim
"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

Not the same (none / 0) (#190)
by lovelace on Sun May 18, 2003 at 01:43:01 AM EST

While there are some of the same scenes at the end of the movie as in your clip, it's not the same trailer at the end of the Matrix Reloaded.

[ Parent ]
DAMN! [n/t] (none / 0) (#139)
by YelM3 on Sat May 17, 2003 at 05:01:26 AM EST



[ Parent ]
grapefruit spoon (1.50 / 2) (#88)
by simul on Fri May 16, 2003 at 04:03:35 PM EST



Read this book - first 24 pages are free to browse - it rocks
I like your writing style (5.00 / 1) (#90)
by Fon2d2 on Fri May 16, 2003 at 04:15:38 PM EST

And I like the points you make. But do you think that you're dissappointment may enhanced by prior expectations built up by the first movie? That had this been any other regular flick, it would have been common garbage not worthy of mention, but since it IS the Matrix, it is now a spectacular suckfest? Such is the way with sequels.

Such, indeed, is the way with sequels. (none / 0) (#388)
by Shovas on Sun May 25, 2003 at 09:47:08 PM EST

Sequels are held to a higher standard because we have seen what the producers are capable of and expect to feel the sequel is better than the first. I think this is justifiable. If it's not better than the first, than that just kinda makes the entire thing pointless.

Ignoring that for the moment, the real reason there is a higher level of backlash for ordinary sequels than ordinary non-sequels is that most of the time the sequels are made to generate money. And things are sacrificed to ensure that it will generaet money with the masses.

I feel Reloaded did this with the confounding rave-sex scene. It was largely useless when those minutes could have been used in connecting better with the people, to give us a better idea of their humanity. It just felt dirty to me to have Neo and Trinity hook up immediately and leave nothing to tantalize.

A lot of movies do this too. They'll waste no time in resolving things that really could be left to the imagination and really could leave a greater feeling of wanting to see what happens to the situation and/or characters.
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
Hacking into the power grid (5.00 / 4) (#95)
by sully on Fri May 16, 2003 at 05:07:01 PM EST

Well, my feelings about the movie were mixed, but at least the console at the power station showed them running an SSH exploit from the command line. Better than Jurassic Park's "I know UNIX!"


-------------
The opinions expressed above are not necessarily those of my prefrontal cortex.
I too, was totally turned on by that fact [n/t] (2.00 / 1) (#99)
by damballah on Fri May 16, 2003 at 05:40:00 PM EST


*******************************************
" I apologize for this long comment. I didn't have the time to make it any shorter. " - Blaise Pascal

" zombie accounts promote an unhealthy interest in the occult among our younger readers. " - [ Parent ]

Jurassic Cred (5.00 / 2) (#101)
by x3nophil3 on Fri May 16, 2003 at 06:04:18 PM EST

Actually the fancy graphical filesystem browser that led the girl in Jurassic Park to utter that line was in fact an old GL hack from SGI.

The nmap and SSH 'sploit are way cooler tho'.

[ Parent ]

I've got to admit... (5.00 / 2) (#108)
by ktakki on Fri May 16, 2003 at 08:42:10 PM EST

That impressed me. It was a tiny detail, on screen for no longer than five seconds, but it showed that someone did their homework.

I know that moviemakers like to make things larger than life, like the screens in that godawful Sandra Bollocks movie, The Net, with 72 pt. password boxes and "ACCESS DENIED" in huge flashing red letters. Or the way the letters of a terminal screen are projected on the operator's face, as if the cathode ray tube had been replaced by a laser light show.

The thing is that 99% of the moviegoing public doesn't care about details like this, and that the screens in The Net (or for that matter, the construct loading program in the first Matrix movie) make it easier for Joe and Jane AOL to follow what's happening in the movie ("You've got Sentinels!").


k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

[ Parent ]

Well (none / 0) (#116)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Fri May 16, 2003 at 10:16:23 PM EST

They included a big flashing "ACCESS GRANTED" thing that seemed a bit out of place for Mr. and Mrs. AOL.

I thought the air traffic controller program was pretty cool too.

Tim
"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

the only technical detail that irks me... (5.00 / 1) (#125)
by Work on Sat May 17, 2003 at 12:37:34 AM EST

If I may geek out for a moment.

It's the EMP thing. Why oh why are sentinels affected by EMP? *Today* all military electronics are shielded from the effects of EMP. You would think 200 years from now military killing machines that are smarter than humans would have employed simple shielding on their critical circuits.

Further compounding this little plothole is if you watch The Second Renaissance part II (from the animatrix), they say the human nuclear weapons had no effect on the machines. Nuclear weapons are the primary source of EMP blasts, thus implying that the machines WERE shielded, at least that point in time.

If you're going to go to the trouble of looking up real world exploits for a few seconds footage why not make sure your most important tool against said machines actually makes sense?

[ Parent ]

Machines shield against EMP? (none / 0) (#127)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Sat May 17, 2003 at 12:56:12 AM EST

Make EMP more powerful.

Tim
"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

doesnt really do any good... (none / 0) (#130)
by Work on Sat May 17, 2003 at 01:57:57 AM EST

EMP is blocked by building a simple faraday cage. It's not terribly difficult to shield against any EMP. There isn't really more 'powerful' EMP that can overcome it.

A nuclear bomb unleashes a gigawatt or more of energy into the atmosphere and its relatively easy to shield against the EMP from it. There aren't many things out there that can unleash much more than that, and keep everything around it still in one piece. Much less push a big red button on a ship and do it.

[ Parent ]

Good, but... (none / 0) (#136)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Sat May 17, 2003 at 02:55:50 AM EST

Maybe their propulsion system doesn't work too well when it's inside a Faraday cage.

Tim
"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

Nuclear bomb usually doesnt go off next to you (none / 0) (#147)
by MfA on Sat May 17, 2003 at 11:52:04 AM EST

Since it is attenuated at ^3 it is not unlikely that their close range EMP weapon could provide much stronger fields than you would expect from a nuke based EMP attack.

Still, if their ship can survive it so can the bots.

[ Parent ]

The ship can't survive it. (none / 0) (#151)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Sat May 17, 2003 at 12:54:42 PM EST

They have to shut everything off before they activate the EMP. If you saw the movie (SPOILERS), they lose five ships because someone detonates an EMP early.

Tim
"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

Suspension of disbelief (none / 0) (#293)
by magney on Mon May 19, 2003 at 10:30:54 PM EST

The only way this can remotely make sense is if the EMP generator is much more powerful than present day technology can dream of. Nuclear weapons produce EMP blasts only as part of their prodigious energy output - imagine the energy of a nuclear blast channeled into pure EMP and you might be getting somewhere.

That still doesn't explain why the ship can survive an EMP blast going off inside it at all. Turning off the power oughtn't be much of a protection - an EMP powerful enough to scramble Sentinels at medium range should cause power to arc right across the power connections at short range.

At this point, there's nothing left but to invoke the MST3K motto: "It's just a show, I really should relax." :)

Do I look like I speak for my employer?
[ Parent ]

Heh...about the geeks (4.66 / 3) (#140)
by TheModerate on Sat May 17, 2003 at 06:22:39 AM EST

"The thing is that 99% of the moviegoing public doesn't care about details like this..."

You are speaking actual rather than potential. In fact, it is exacly details like this that reduces that percentage from 99% to 97% to 94% and further: more geeks go to see what all the hoopla is all about. And come on, this is the geek trilogy, probably trumpeting over Star Wars in pure geek appeal---not only will these Matrix movies probably turn in more geeks out from their video game consoles, but they will also create more new geeks than ever before among the nebulous minds of the young.

Scary, isn't it?

"What a man has in himself is, then, the chief element in his happiness." -- Schopenhauer
[ Parent ]

Heh. (none / 0) (#214)
by stormysky on Sun May 18, 2003 at 01:40:47 PM EST

"You've got Sentinels"... that caused projectile coffee, through the nose.
In the third movie, it's revealed that the Matrix is simply a virtual reality that Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan are using to date each other. Stayed tuned, buy more popcorn.
We can face anything, except for bunnies.
[ Parent ]
Indeed (none / 0) (#247)
by Josh A on Mon May 19, 2003 at 04:08:39 AM EST

You've got Sentinels made me laugh out loud for real. :-)

---
Thank God for Canada, if only because they annoy the Republicans so much. – Blarney


[ Parent ]
I have bad news for you (none / 0) (#295)
by p3d0 on Mon May 19, 2003 at 10:46:09 PM EST

...the way the letters of a terminal screen are projected on the operator's face, as if the cathode ray tube had been replaced by a laser light show.
I'm sorry to tell you, that was in The Matrix. Neo's screen was projected onto his face at the beginning.
--
Patrick Doyle
My comments do not reflect the opinions of my employer.
[ Parent ]
too realistic (5.00 / 1) (#138)
by YelM3 on Sat May 17, 2003 at 05:00:38 AM EST

I've always been a big fan of the hollywood hacker and his bag of tricks. I was actually kind of disappointed when Trinity busted out the ssh 'sploit; I was all set to laugh at some ridiculous imitation. Luckily, we got the classic followup to "Whoa."

"Programs hacking programs!"

Brilliant. I wonder what it's like to see the Matrix and not be a computer geek?

[ Parent ]

Great (none / 0) (#203)
by EiZei on Sun May 18, 2003 at 05:31:36 AM EST

Now your average scriptkiddie will think he is really cool just because he/she can nmap several machines and run ssh exploits. Just like in Matrix (r) <tm>.

[ Parent ]
The comments in this thread are funny (none / 0) (#97)
by TheModerate on Fri May 16, 2003 at 05:28:37 PM EST

Between the apologists: "But you expect it to be a good good movie. Its really a bad movie, but a good bad movie."

And the purists: "This was supposed to be a good movie, but I went to the theatre and it wasn't as good as the movie I had in mind."

I wonder when you guys will figure out that you are agreeing :)

Myself, I am going to have to see it again to see if I can understand the plot and the intellectual stuff a little more. But in my opinion, the movie was kind of hunched downward in the center, seeming to be doing all the story building briefly in the beginning and the end of the movie and the center was basically an excuse to go from one action scene to another. Oh...and some of Neo's superman scenes gave me the impression it was an advertisement for a comic book, for some reason :)

"What a man has in himself is, then, the chief element in his happiness." -- Schopenhauer

YOU ARE IRRELEVANT (2.20 / 5) (#98)
by Mr. Piccolo on Fri May 16, 2003 at 05:29:24 PM EST

Ebert (somebody who is competent to review movies, unlike you) gave it 3.5 stars, sucka.

The BBC would like to apologise for the following comment.


Actually, ... (none / 0) (#338)
by nurallen on Wed May 21, 2003 at 08:19:27 PM EST

this is as better-written than the bulk of Ebert's work and a more entertaining read as well ...

And that is saying something because Ebert is not bs like like most reviewers on the internet ...

Although, he misses badly sometimes by being carried away by one aspect or other of the movie he is reviewing. Are me

's working?

[ Parent ]

Philosophy Complaints (SPOILERS) (4.50 / 6) (#114)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Fri May 16, 2003 at 09:55:14 PM EST

I went into this movie hearing a whole bunch of people bitch about the shallow and stupid philosophy spouted, and I started to agree. I was thinking "that philosophy bullshit should have been removed!"

Then came the end and it was revealed that most of the bullshit philosophy was just evil computer programs trying to manipulate Neo.

So it's not that bad.

The rave scene sucked though. Morpheus' speech to them sucked. "'We shall resist the machines... WITH THE POWER OF TECHNO!!!!' UNTZ*UNTZ*UNTZUNTZ"

Tim
"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."

Bullshit philosophy? (5.00 / 1) (#117)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 16, 2003 at 11:25:12 PM EST

It's the same philosophy western civilization is built on, so don't be so quick to dismiss it. It might be bullshit, but it's the bullshit that created the world you live in.


--
Fishing for Men, Trolling for Newbies, what's the difference?


[ Parent ]
Replace bullshit (none / 0) (#118)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Fri May 16, 2003 at 11:29:51 PM EST

With "simple." Some of it was definitely bullshit though - the Oracle was mostly running off her foul deceiving mouth...

Tim
"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

how so? (none / 0) (#246)
by suntzu on Mon May 19, 2003 at 04:04:53 AM EST

i thought the oracle made the most sense of anyone. she basically said "you can't trust me. me, you, we're all just programs, we do things because we're going to do them, you're just trying to understand cause and effect, you may or may not end up succeeding." has a somewhat strict deterministic flavor, which some may find discomforting, but other than that, i thought she had a pretty good take on the situation.

[ Parent ]
ktakki read my mind (3.50 / 2) (#121)
by jzawodn on Sat May 17, 2003 at 12:08:41 AM EST

I feel the same way. I agree with 95% of what you said. Well done.

I haven't seen this yet... (5.00 / 1) (#135)
by Psycho Dave on Sat May 17, 2003 at 02:53:04 AM EST

...but I hope I don't have the same reaction I did to "Phantom Menace".

See, back in 1999, I was caught up in all the Star Wars hoopla. Not dressing like an Ewok bad (in fact I think I missed the midnight showing of Episode I to get laid...had to catch the 2 AM).

"Phantom Menace" of course, sucked, but after investing in so much sleep dep just to see the fucking thing, I was an apologist for the film. "Yeah, Jar-Jar sucks, not as good as the originals, blah...blah BUT still taken in by it's epic scope and state of the art special effects blah...blah." It took one more viewing of it to cleanse me of such sentiments.

Seeing these comments on Matrix Reloaded, I'm betting it's either gonna be a "Phantom Menace" (and right now the apologists are trying to salvage some bit of good from wearing their Neo trenchcoat and sunglasses for the 10pm showing in the middle of May) or that American audiences are dumb, and write off as sucky anything that doesn't conform immediately to their expectations.

Guess I'll find out Sunday night.

Star Wars = video game (4.50 / 2) (#150)
by Sze on Sat May 17, 2003 at 12:44:16 PM EST

The problem with Phantom Menace (and 2 and probably 3) was that is was freaking obvious that the story took a back seat to the action figure toy line, McDonalds tie-ins, and the video games that would be spawned. While I was watching the pod races and the scene in ep 2 in the droid factory, I actually looked down at my hands a few times expecting to see a controller.

Matrix 2 is no worse than 1 on this front.

[ Parent ]

Sadly enough... (none / 0) (#154)
by Psycho Dave on Sat May 17, 2003 at 01:46:37 PM EST

...I did get the Episode 1 Pod Racer game for my N64. Wasn't a bad game, got into more than most racing games. Just don't play with Anakin's pod cause you have to hear that little shit "yippee!" every time you hit the thrusters. I think that little kid in Episode 1 did more to kill my enjoyment of that movie than Jar-Jar...

I am curious about getting Enter the Matrix, but can't find any reviews on it (prolly due to the fact that E3 is going on). I know reviews are not always to be trusted, but I have to at least have a range of professional opinions before I plop down the 50 dollars I should probably apply to a new wardrobe. I mean, I'm still pissed about that old E.T. game for Atari...

[ Parent ]

Review of Enter the Matrix (5.00 / 1) (#222)
by hal200 on Sun May 18, 2003 at 06:00:31 PM EST

Ok, here's my mini review. If I were you, I'd plop the $50 on the new wardrobe.  ETM isn't a horrible game, but it's not a great game either.  It's just not worth $50.

First of all, if you're going to pick it up, get one of the console versions.  The PC version is buggy.  I saw the XBox version being played in the store, and it would seem to have a little more polish in that area.  

As for the game itself, it's really three games in one.  There is a third person fighting adventure game, a driving game, and the hovercraft flying game.  

The combat adventure is very well done.  It's obvious they spent the majority of their time working on this aspect of the game.  The hand-to-hand combat is beautiful to watch, and by using Focus, you can perform all the cool moves you've seen in the movies.  You can play as either Niobe or Ghost, and each have their own similar but different paths through the levels.  Ghost's adventure seems to be easier than Niobe's.  (I finished the Niobe campaign last night, and am about 1/3rd of the way through Ghost's) If only they'd kept to this game, and spent the rest of their resources developing a multi-player aspect to the game, I'd have been blissfully happy.

Next comes the driving simulator.  Ugh.  It's pretty horrible.  The physics are all over the place, and most of the time it feels like you're trying to drive a lead brick instead of an automobile.  There is one level in particular with Ghost where you're driving an SUV.  If you even look at an obstacle the wrong way, you take air, or roll, or spin out, and the steering either by mouse or by keyboard is generally slow and unresponsive.  Fortunately, there are only a couple levels where you're driving, and in Ghost's case, one of those is spent hanging out the window shooting at enemies while Niobe drives.  THAT was fun! :)

Then we get to the hovercraft game.  Thankfully, in Niobe's scenario, it's only one mission.  (I haven't gotten that far in Ghost's story yet) If the driving game was bad, the hovercraft game is worse.  It consists of running along tunnels and passages trying not to get ripped apart by Sentinels.  Words can not describe how truly awful it is.  Basically, the best way to accomplish this is to drag the ship along the walls.  Why?  It doesn't hurt your ship, but confuses the hell out of the Sentinels.  And, if one latches on, the way to get rid of it is to ram your ship into the wall...Not to mention that the graphics look like something you'd get out of a poorly animated flash game.  The sentinels look like animated 2D sprites overlayed on a 3D environment.  

Also, since there is no multiplayer, once you've played through as both Niobe and Ghost, the game has pretty much 0 replayability.  Save your money.  Rent it for a weekend...it shouldn't take you much longer than that to finish it with both characters.  

With regards to the extra hour of footage which ties into The Matrix Reloaded...there's not much there.  It provides a modicrum more depth to Niobe's character, but that's about it.  There's nothing there which is original or earth shattering, (Well, there is a lesbian kiss between Niobe and Persephone...imagine the scene from the movie between her and Neo, and replace him with Niobe...the dialog is pretty much interchangeable) or even helps appreciate the movie any better.

One of the interesting bits is the Hack option in the main menu.  This takes you into a command prompt where you can enter cheat codes, play a little mini hack-the-matrix type game and hear recycled sound bits from the movies, as well as watch unlocked FMVs (assuming it works for you...doesn't work on my PC) and view extra artwork (ditto).  I'm sure it would be very cool if it worked properly.  Like I said, rent the console version.  

I hope that helps. :)

[ Parent ]

Thanks (none / 0) (#287)
by Psycho Dave on Mon May 19, 2003 at 08:17:27 PM EST

Looks like I'll be getting a new pair of pants. Maybe I'll pick up the console version in two months when I can get a used copy for 20 bucks for either X-Box or PS2. I've had too much shit to do to sit down and get all wrapped up in any hardcore gaming.

[ Parent ]
Interesting (none / 0) (#160)
by Random Number Generator Troll on Sat May 17, 2003 at 05:05:45 PM EST

but after investing in so much sleep dep just to see the fucking thing, I was an apologist for the film
Are you fond of Apple Computers, Inc.?

[ Parent ]
Phantom Menace reaction impossible (3.66 / 3) (#171)
by jearbear on Sat May 17, 2003 at 07:27:11 PM EST

As that was just a cinematic stinking load of shite. Star Wars or no Star Wars, as a movie is was so godawful one could not help but feel angry.

Even if you dislike Reloaded in comparison to The Matrix, it's still a great ride and has a lot to be said for it on its own - in terms of plots, visuals, characters, and philosophy. And it doesn't try to take the whole package and sell it to the five year olds in the audience.

Sucky? I say no, other say yes. Utter pablum/marketing ploy? Thank god no.

[ Parent ]

Not impossible (3.00 / 1) (#260)
by wurp on Mon May 19, 2003 at 10:49:12 AM EST

I thought it was on par with Phantom Menace.  To be fair, I felt pretty crappy while I was watching Reloaded (I hadn't eaten that day), but I'm still pretty sure it was basically a big steaming pile of shit with frosting.
---
Buy my stuff
[ Parent ]
Finally saw Matrix this weekend (none / 0) (#288)
by Psycho Dave on Mon May 19, 2003 at 08:27:55 PM EST

and I wasn't disappointed by it. Then again, I'm a geek for kung-fu and herioc bloodshed movies. The Wachowskis definetly are geeks for it too, and nail it better than almost any other American filmmaker.

As for the storyline, it didn't commit any egregious sins (ala "midichlorians"). The scene with the architect leaves me scratching my head, but I found I liked it better than a traditional action packed face-off that would be more typical of a summer action film. And come on, the rave scene wasn't that bad. Like they asked in the first movie, why would any one want to be freed from their nice, cushy, illusury matrix? This movie answers that: there's more pussy in Zion.

At the very least, this movie kicks the shit out of T3 and Bad Boys II.

[ Parent ]

Re: Does the name Pavlov ring a bell? (none / 0) (#392)
by hummassa on Mon May 26, 2003 at 03:19:31 PM EST

No, but if it rang a bell, my mouth would get wet with saliva... hmmmm doughnuts...


[ Parent ]
Sequel Sag (4.80 / 5) (#141)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Sat May 17, 2003 at 09:23:03 AM EST

The first Matrix movie worked very hard and spent a lot of time lulling us into their world. That made the various reveals later in the film a real mindtrip (dude).

Reloaded, like many sequels, took it as read that we had been introduced into their world. Our attention and immersion is taken for granted.

Instead of pissing away Act I with that ridiculous Roman rave and some very (Lucasesque) stale dialogue, Act I should have been spent finding a clever way to lure us back down the rabbit hole.

...The main thing is: has Doc Browns's flying DeLorean been blasted away into a meta-Matrix? We'll all find out in five months.


___
I am from a small, unknown country in the north called Ca-na-da. We are a simple, grease-loving people who enjoy le weekend de ski. Personally, I pref
REVOLUTIONS SPOILERS! (5.00 / 7) (#142)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Sat May 17, 2003 at 09:31:31 AM EST

Here is the secret, inside word on the third installment of the Matrix Trilogy:

Neo and his friends have in fact emerged in a kind of meta-Matrix, which they will eventually discover is embedded in yet another level of simulation -- this newest level, however, is styled like the Old West.

While Neo discovers new dimensions to his own power, Morpheus falls in love with a local harlot and becomes distracted from trying to find a way back to the gritty, smoky future of Zion. For reasons that are never fully explained, Link is recast three times in the third film, with the critical but pointless operator role filled by Chris Rock, MC Hammer and -- briefly -- Ahmed Best (death scene).

Agent Smith goes on a high protein diet and goes around asking everyone whether or not they're John Conner. Also: as has been widely speculated, Neo was right about Trinity: she is a guy.

In the end it turns out that the whole thing was just a coma-fantasy that took place in Neo's mind after he fell off of the scaffolding outside of his office's window in the first movie.

Honest Injun'. I have teh inside word, yo.


___
I am from a small, unknown country in the north called Ca-na-da. We are a simple, grease-loving people who enjoy le weekend de ski. Personally, I pref
oh, whatever! (1.00 / 1) (#156)
by Kax on Sat May 17, 2003 at 02:04:57 PM EST

you hate that kid because he's just like you.

Innie v. Outie: Very, very good. (none / 0) (#159)
by jck2000 on Sat May 17, 2003 at 04:52:46 PM EST

Zion is too big: it's like Coruscant Spaceport, only it's an innie instead of an outie.

Great line -- I love it.

point by point (4.87 / 8) (#161)
by tuj on Sat May 17, 2003 at 05:06:45 PM EST

commercials instead of trailer before a movie:  I can't stand this either.  Having scene the pathetic vignettes like the Honda Matrix and that Movietickets.com one with the family on the helicopter...yuck.  Keep this shit out!

rave scene:  vivid and perhaps hedonistic portrayal of the remnants of humanity enjoying reality.  If you just found out that the last 20 years of your life were a computer simulation, you'd probably enjoy revaling in sensory pleasures as well.  Too long?  Well that's your call, but it was a necessary scene.

Product placement during the chase scene: totally lame.  Yes, it was good they did just happen upon a Ferrari Enzo in the parking garage, but they could have done a little better.  Maybe an RX-8?  Anything sportier than that caddy.  The pursuing Escolade reminded me of Back to the Future, with the Lybian guy w/ the RPG sticking out the top of a VW microbus.

Fight scenes:  Let not forget that the fight scenes are inside the Matrix.  The physical combat is probably more representative of programs attacking eachother.  It just so happens that the physical representation of this is hand-to-hand combat.  The many of the fights are pretty much stalemates: perhaps this is indicative that Neo's mind and some of the other programs are on the same level in terms of mastery of the Matrix.  

Bullet-time overkill:  Personally, I didn't think so.  I think its now went from a very interesting effect, to a way of emphasizing what it might feel like to be in the Matrix, able to manipulate the passage of time.  I personally liked the way it showcased the action, but YMMV.  

CG overkill:  Didn't bother me too much.  I thought plenty of the CG cars looked quite real to me.  I didn't find the CG intrusive, unlike movies Lucas has done.

Plot:  Yes there was a plot.  No, it wasn't stupid.  No, the first movie is not all bullshit.

The meta-babble:  I'd suggest reading the essay on the Matrix site under their philosophy section called Neo's Freedom...Whoa.  There is a dicussion (based on events of the first movie) regarding choice in the Matrix.  This is especially relevant given the way choice is portrayed in Reloaded.

Neo's told that he's essentially the 7th iteration of an abberation in the system.  The system allows the illusion of free will by presenting choices that are underminded by psychological factors such that the choice that one will choose is already known.  However, it was said that a small percentage did not correctly accept this program.  We are told that the Matrix allows the culmination of 'The One' (including the existance of Zion, rebels, etc) in order to analyze the result and perfect the system.  Neo is told that he is essentially a program.

This raises a number of important issues.  In the first movie, we are lead to believe that Neo's superior abilities in the Matrix are a result of his mind's understanding and manipulation of the virtual world.  While the other rebels are able to do this to some exent great, they cannot overcome the abilities of the sentiel programs (Agents).  So now we are left wondering; is it Neo's mind that lets him do what he does, or is it the Matrix, specifically designating him to have those powers?  If he's not specifically designated by the Matrix, it would seem that other rebels would eventually develop similar types of powers.

Back to the element of choice.  Nearly every program in the Matrix encountered by the rebels states that choice is an illusion, including the Oracle and the Architect.  But is it really?  The female companion of the French guy seems like she makes a choice, or at least an unexpected action.  Was it choice?  

Other programs emphasize that they only have to fufil their purpose (such as the guardian of the Oracle and the Keymaker).  We are left wondering if these programs were endowed with their purpose by the Architect, or if they truly are rogue programs in the system.  Its suggested (when the Agents focus on killing the Keymaker) that these programs are unexpected.  Yet, if that is the case, how does the Architect know or expect the Neo will return to him, so that he can offer him a choice?

Machine Interdependence:  Its suggested at numerous points that the interdependence between man and machine is inexorably linked.  Some have even suggested that the idea the Matrix is using humans for power is a subterfuge.  Morpheus mentions in the first movie that the machines have developed a new form of cold fusion.  Perhaps it is more likely that humans are being used for a far more precious resource than their heat (and which also doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics); their brainpower.  

While we are lead to believe that the machine collectie is amazingly intelligent, perhaps it lacks some crucial element for processing.  Afterall, having all of those brains on tap would have to be a tremendous computational body, perhaps running programs that cannot be run in a silicon/binary world.  This idea is developed further when the rogue Agent Smith uploads himself into a rebel and takes control of him in reality.  We are asked to question, at what point is our consciousness just a program?

Ending:  not as bad as you think, if you ponder the implications of Neo stopping the Sentinel machine bombs.  His ability to feel their presence and stop them is perhaps indicitive of his conscious being inprinted inside the mainframe of the Matrix.  Maybe his realization that he has the ability to control the physical machines via the mainframe that has put him into a coma.  

My take on what the programs say to Neo: you can't necessarily believe it.  Neo is told he's an abberation.  But by definition, isn't that something that can't be controlled?  Perhaps with each iteration of 'The One', the Matrix has created something progressively more dangerous to itself.  Perhaps this time, 'The One' has such strengh that he can't be contained?  I think the message of the third movie will be that the Architect vastly underestimated the ability for the human mind to rapidly integrate and understand the machine.  The double irony: humanity created its enslavers (the machines), while the machines created its undoing (Neo).

Soundtrack:  Both movies featured music by Rob D in prominate points in the films (Clubbed to Death).

Symbolism of the spoon given to Neo:  no idea.

Conclusion:  there is a hell of a lot more to this movie than the suckitude I've seen claimed.  If you come out with the impression that none of it made sense, you may have missed something.  Don't be pissed off; it happens.  I can't see how anyone can deny that there are some very interesting implications underlying the plot.  There are so many philosphical issues around the movie that I can put up with a bit of cheese here and there.  But again, that's just my take; maybe the whole thing is a pile of crap.  But if my interpetation lead me to ponder something interesting, who cares?


Neo and the Sentinels (none / 0) (#177)
by lovelace on Sat May 17, 2003 at 11:17:57 PM EST

[ SPOILERS AHEAD! YOU WERE WARNED. ]

My take on Neo stopping the sentinels was that perhaps what they think is the real world is actually just another Matrix. The machines seem to allow Zion to flourish for a while. Who says they have to do that in the real world. They could have built a Matrix specifically for that. After all, the most effective jail is one where the prisoner doesn't know he's being held captive.

As far as the symbolism of the spoon. That was bloody obvious. It came from one of the recently released orphans. I'd be willing to bet that it was from the one that was in the Oracles apartment in the first movie that told Neo "there is no spoon." Perhaps that's a foreshadowing that what they think is the real world is still another Matrix. That, btw, would also explain how Agent Smith could take control of someone in the "real world."

What I want to see in the next movie is more information about Agent Smith. He's an extremely interesting character that didn't get really get any explanation in this movie. I suppose that's mostly because the Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions is really one movie.

[ Parent ]

Glad I'm not the only one. (none / 0) (#188)
by Rhinobird on Sun May 18, 2003 at 01:09:03 AM EST

I think agent Smith, NOT Neo is going to turn out to be the wild card that ends up dstroying the Matrix and freeing everybody. Glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks this way.
"If Mr. Edison had thought more about what he was doing, he wouldn't sweat as much." --Nikola Tesla
[ Parent ]
Smith brain takeover. (none / 0) (#194)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Sun May 18, 2003 at 03:06:08 AM EST

That, btw, would also explain how Agent Smith could take control of someone in the "real world."
O.K. I've been hearing that for a couple of days, and I guess it makes some sense. However that event in the movie didn't faze me or strike me as anywhere nearly so strange, and in need of better explanation, as people coughing up blood when they are hit in the matrix.

I mean, being in the matrix involves being hooked to a machine that can obviously write things into your brain. If Smith can write himself into the matrix simulation of your brain, why think it odd that he can then do it to the physical version of your brain?



[ Parent ]

Coughing up blood (5.00 / 1) (#197)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Sun May 18, 2003 at 03:28:01 AM EST

If Zion is the real, material world, there are three things I do not buy.

1. Humans are a viable power source.

I have heard that the brothers Wachowski originally meant for the machines to be using humans as processing power, which made a lot more sense, but they felt they needed to dumb it down. So this might not really count.

2. Coughing up blood.

I can buy that the machine-mind interface is powerful enough that it can leave you brain-dead, but not that it can make you bleed without explanation. They could be just adding it for artistic effect or something, however.

3. Neo killing the Sentinels.

This is the clincher. There's no way people can shoot EMP from their hands.

Agent Smith taking over someone's brain isn't even on there, it seems quite possible with the machine-mind interface that Smith could actually take control of someone even if Zion was the material world.

Tim
"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

well. (none / 0) (#248)
by delmoi on Mon May 19, 2003 at 04:09:21 AM EST

It's also possible that he was still in communication with the matrix and was able to stop the bugs by command. I find the second matrix hypothosis more likely, though.
--
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
[ Parent ]
EMP (none / 0) (#314)
by Rhodes on Tue May 20, 2003 at 08:16:32 PM EST

in the movie, the appearence of the surviving ship was very close on the heels of the "I feel them" from Neo- I thought they meant that the ship used their EMP, rather than it coming from Neo- that it was just a standard narrative trick to lead you on. Of course it could be either way, depending on how many layers you think the matrix is composed of.

[ Parent ]
There IS a spoon! (none / 0) (#182)
by bse on Sat May 17, 2003 at 11:57:32 PM EST

The spoon, I feel, was an amusing inside joke between them and us - the viewer.

I thought it very similar to the scene in the first X-Men, between Wolverine and Psyclops - eg, "What's with these suits?" "What would you rather wear, yellow spandex?"

Just an amusing joke for the viewer.

This sequal was full of humourous events - Neo flying off, the Smiths blinking, looking dumbfounded, and in the end just walking off with a dopy look on their faces.

---
"Please sir, tell me why, my life's so pitiful, but the future's so bright? When I look ahead, it burns my retinas." -- Pitchshifter - Please Sir
[ Parent ]

spoon! (none / 0) (#192)
by roju on Sun May 18, 2003 at 02:16:15 AM EST

You call that a knife? This is a knife! That's all I could think of when Neo was given the spoon. Everybody near me though I was crazy, I was laughing so hard.

[ Parent ]
is that a (none / 0) (#199)
by circletimessquare on Sun May 18, 2003 at 04:16:55 AM EST

croccodile dundee reference? ;-P

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Nope, (5.00 / 2) (#204)
by zerth on Sun May 18, 2003 at 05:35:05 AM EST

you've obviously never played knifey-spoony before!

Rusty isn't God here, he's the pope; our God is pedantry. -- Subtillus
[ Parent ]
;-P (none / 0) (#239)
by circletimessquare on Sun May 18, 2003 at 11:36:09 PM EST

http://www.atlyrics.com/quotes/c/crocodiledundee.html

Michael J. "Crocodile" Dundee: That's not a knife. [Draws his.] This is a knife.

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

no, it's only an indirect reference to CD (5.00 / 1) (#302)
by zerth on Tue May 20, 2003 at 01:27:30 AM EST

it's a direct reference to the Simpsons unless I've completely lost it and he isn't talking about the homemade spoon.

Rusty isn't God here, he's the pope; our God is pedantry. -- Subtillus
[ Parent ]
There is no spoon - it's a hint about Zion. (5.00 / 1) (#196)
by mysta on Sun May 18, 2003 at 03:19:01 AM EST

The spoon, I feel, was an amusing inside joke between them and us - the viewer.
I think it was more than that.

There was speculation earlier in this thread that Zion is just another Matrix. This seems reasonable as it explains why Neo still has his powers outside Matrix 1 and why Agent Smith could take over a "human" in Zion. It also goes some way to understanding some of the Architect's babble.

There was a sense of urgency in making sure that the spoon got delivered to Neo before he left Zion. Why? I think the spoon bending kid from the first movie is trying to give Neo a hint. Both Neo and the spoon-kid were in the Matrix in the first movie waiting to be seen by the Oracle. The spoon that the kid bends is not real - "there is no spoon" - because it's just a figment of the Matrix. Giving Neo another spoon with such urgency before he leaves Zion makes no sense unless it's to alert him to the fact that Zion isn't real either.

The whole "no spoon" thing reminds me of Magritte (C'est ne pas un pipe) and the "not tea" of the Hitch-hiker's interactive fiction. All of them are objects signifying the absence of an object or contradicting its existence.
---
Are we not drawn onward, we few, drawn onward to new era?
[ Parent ]

What is implausible... (none / 0) (#215)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Sun May 18, 2003 at 02:21:12 PM EST

...about Smith taking over a person while they are hooked to a machine that can obviously read from and write to human brains? I don't see this as in need of any further explanation. Coughing up blood in the real world when hurt in the Matrix stands in need of more explanation than the brain takeover.



[ Parent ]

Another clue (3.50 / 2) (#298)
by Happy Monkey on Mon May 19, 2003 at 11:25:44 PM EST

Coughing up blood in the real world when hurt in the Matrix stands in need of more explanation than the brain takeover.

Another clue is the need to go to a telephone to exit. That makes the telephones portals between realms, like the special key/door combinations. If it were merely a way in and out of the Matrix, it doesn't make much sense. I'm cautiously hopeful that many of the convenient problems in the first two will be explained by the third.
___
Length 17, Width 3
[ Parent ]
[spoilers ] I agree (no spoon) (none / 0) (#283)
by whovian on Mon May 19, 2003 at 05:32:20 PM EST

The spoon that the kid bends is not real - "there is no spoon" - because it's just a figment of the Matrix. Giving Neo another spoon with such urgency before he leaves Zion makes no sense unless it's to alert him to the fact that Zion isn't real either.

That's another good reason for Neo to have "chosen" to save Trinity if the Zion we saw wasn't the real one. I mean, while the Architect was trying to manipulate Neo into choosing Trinity based on "human" emotion as a weakness, it's possible it was in fact _THE_ correct choice for Neo to make here.


[ Parent ]
Damn it! Zion doesn't exit either! (5.00 / 4) (#187)
by Rhinobird on Sun May 18, 2003 at 01:06:24 AM EST

Zion is a special seperate reality that malcontents get sent to when they can't fit into the main matrix.

The Martix uses humans to 'recruit' malcontent humans to fight for the 'freedom of the human race'. What those humans are actually doing is removing malcontents from the main matrix thus making the main matrix more stable. Every now and then this subystem gets full and needs to be purged, so the matrix sets off an end program to facilitate the destruction of Zion. But it still needs a handfull of human in Zion to begin the recruitment process again. The battery thing is a cover story used to decieve the Zionists who are too busy fighting for survival to think too much about how absurd the battery thing is.

Even neo's 'choice' at the end is a con job. either way Zion was going to be destroyed, and there was nothing he could have done to prevent it. Just one way he hand picks the survivors and the other the survivors are picked by the Matrix. Morpheus is the Oracle's bitch. He's so caught up by 'destiny' that he's given up his own free will. I could go on, but i'm busy.
"If Mr. Edison had thought more about what he was doing, he wouldn't sweat as much." --Nikola Tesla
[ Parent ]

There's no Matrix! (none / 0) (#206)
by maluke on Sun May 18, 2003 at 08:50:45 AM EST

How about removing malcontents from REAL society, what if Matrix doesn't exist, or rather all those people don't live in it, they are simulated, Morpheus and his gang are some perverted freaks who kidnap people (who knows why? to set experiments?).

Morpheus gives Neo (1337 hacker w/ lack of self-confidence and paranoia) a pill, then does some surgery to him to put all those implants, THEN simulates his escape and then, BANG, you can set experiments on a guy who is just a nerd who thinks he is THE ONE in a simulated world. And you can feed him sperm (was it protiene? i don't think so.)

Then one guy from his staff (or experiment subjects) 'betrays' them all and tries to kill the gang, well you know the rest. I think you can speculate expanations of all the tiny details on your own.

However i haven't seen M2 yet, so probably to fit it as well this interpretation needs adjustment. But it fits M1 so-o well.

What do you think?

[ Parent ]

i think that's a terrible theory. (nt) (none / 0) (#273)
by joshsisk on Mon May 19, 2003 at 03:05:52 PM EST


--
logjamming.com : web hosting for weblogs, NOT gay lumberjack porn
[ Parent ]
did you say "cron job"? (4.80 / 5) (#221)
by jepler on Sun May 18, 2003 at 05:22:35 PM EST

Even neo's 'choice' at the end is a con job

for a moment there, I thought you were talking about the fact that this apparently happens every century or so...

0 0 0 0 0 */100 /sbin/neo --restart
-- 
rottenflesh, a parody of freshmeat
[ Parent ]

Yeah... (none / 0) (#228)
by ThreadSafe on Sun May 18, 2003 at 08:52:59 PM EST

what the fuck is wrong with these people??? It is made prefectly clear that Zion isn't real. At some point the Architect mentions that it has been destoryed like six times before : "We're getting quite proficient at it".

The reason he can stop the sentinals is 'cause he inside another matrix. Layers upon layers.

Make a clone of me. And fucking listen to it! - Faik
[ Parent ]

unexpected to whom? (5.00 / 1) (#200)
by Shren on Sun May 18, 2003 at 04:26:33 AM EST

The female companion of the French guy seems like she makes a choice, or at least an unexpected action. Was it choice?

It might have seemed so to her, but keep in mind the Oracle knew exactly what was going to happen. "Show up at exactly this time and you will have a chance to get the Keymaker." Why exactly this time? To take advantage of a relationship crisis where person a does something to person b merely to see the look on his face.

[ Parent ]

Not used to adverts in front of movies? (none / 0) (#211)
by Karellen on Sun May 18, 2003 at 11:45:36 AM EST

Damn.

I've been going to the movies pretty regularly since about 1990 here in the UK, and as far as I can remember there have always been 10 mins of adverts and 10 mins of trailers before the feature. That's just the way it is, the way it's always been.

<rant>

However, on the plus side it does give all the fucking retards who can't seem to find their way to their seat (or even into the right screen) until 15 mins after the show has started time to sit down, talk loudly for 5 mins about how much they've been looking forward to the movie, and shut the fuck up before the movie starts, instead of just ruining the first 20 minutes of story for me.

Don't they annoy the piss out of you? Or do you not have any such selfish, impolite, unconsiderate dickwads in the US? (!)

</rant>

K.


[ Parent ]

British ads are funny (none / 0) (#226)
by epepke on Sun May 18, 2003 at 07:24:36 PM EST

I usually enjoy the ads before British movies, because at least they try to be entertaining. However, in the U.S., ads before movies are a recent innovation. They're still not too common. I just went and saw X2, and there weren't any ads. Sometimes, they have a slide show of local community ads with music between showings, though.

However, on the plus side it does give all the fucking retards who can't seem to find their way to their seat

I also noticed that in the U.K., reserved seating is the norm. That's not true in the U.S. Usually, you just get a ticket and walk in and find some empty seats.


The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.--Terry Pratchett


[ Parent ]
EXCEPT... (none / 0) (#268)
by vyruss on Mon May 19, 2003 at 01:01:16 PM EST

...the horrible, horrible, horrible, pointless, horrible Orange blurry ad for photo-messaging. I have to see the fscking thing every fscking time I try to see a movie in every fscking cinema!


  • PRINT CHR$(147)

[ Parent ]
Delivering the spoon was useful (5.00 / 3) (#217)
by Tim Freeman on Sun May 18, 2003 at 02:44:31 PM EST

Here's what happened with the spoon.

First, the Smith-trojaned human is testing his knife on his palm, lurking behind Neo.

Then, the Wesley Crusher character shouts "Neo!" from offscreen. The kid is too far from the assassin and from Neo for anybody to see him.

In response to this, Neo turns around to see the Smith-trojaned human, who therefore decides not to try to kill Neo.

Then Wesley (not his real name) catches up with Neo and gives him the spoon.

The point is that the off-screen character who demanded that the spoon be delivered knew all this would happen because he knew the future. The gift of the spoon prevented the assassination attempt.


Tim Freeman
http://www.fungible.com
Programmer/consultant in the Sunnyvale, CA area.
[ Parent ]

Or... (none / 0) (#286)
by curunir on Mon May 19, 2003 at 07:40:37 PM EST

The gift of the spoon was a message to Neo that the world in which Zion exists was every bit as much inside of a matrix as the world that Neo recognizes to be the matrix. Remember what 'there is no spoon' signified from the first movie.

[ Parent ]
or... (none / 0) (#308)
by crayz on Tue May 20, 2003 at 06:48:49 AM EST

Perhaps his point was that "there is a spoon"...either in Zion or inside the Matrix. Not sure what the implications of such a statement would be.

[ Parent ]
THERE REALLY IS NO SPOON! (2.00 / 1) (#370)
by slur on Fri May 23, 2003 at 08:57:02 PM EST

The fact is, people, that "there is no spoon." This is an important realization whether you live in The Matirx or any other matrix - such as the real world.

Just because you call something "spoon" doesn't make it an independently existing entity. Your conventional mind clings to the notion of the independent a-priori existence of the spoon. However, in reality detached from the conventional mind this thing we call a spoon is simply a ripple in the ocean of reality.

Practices as prescribed by Zen Buddhism (and obscured in the prayer practices of other religions) are intended to liberate your mind from the notion of permanent independently-existing entities. Everything is impermanent, interdependent, constantly changing, and has no intrinsic existence as such.

Through our senses we perceive a form consisting of a long part and a rounded part and the conventional mind performs a process called "recognition."

Re-cognition.

The eye-consciousness distills perception for the conventional mind to form an association of PERCEPT to CONCEPT. In other words, it turns a large amount of perceptual information into a small amount of conceptual information. (It's an energy-saving strategy.)

The point and purpose of negating the spoon is that our conventional understanding of reality is not the "ultimate" truth. The "ultimate" truth (so-called) transcends our ideas -- exists beyond the conceptual plane of understanding.

The implication is that we can exist, act, and live without strongly attaching ourselves to conventional truths. We may make use of them from time to time, however the conventional means of knowing becomes an alienating force when we seek to know and understand our own nature and the deeper nature of reality.

Getting back to the Matrix, Neo needs to understand what the child (the adorable "potential One" from the first film) already learned while existing within the Matrix. Reality as we conceive it is an illusion. Our separateness is an illusion. Our ego-bound self-awareness is an illusion. The mind is not something which manifests as a result of conditions -- all is mind!

|
| slur was here
|

[ Parent ]

choice (none / 0) (#292)
by magney on Mon May 19, 2003 at 10:19:57 PM EST

Nearly every program in the Matrix encountered by the rebels states that choice is an illusion, including the Oracle and the Architect.
Actually... I think the Oracle and the Architect are the only programs who do not say this. The Oracle suggests to Neo that his apparent lack of choice is actually because he has already made a choice, and his present actions are a consequence of the choice. And the Architect just about says outright that the only way that humans could be made to accept the Matrix program, was if they were given a genuine choice not to (if only at a subconscious level).

Do I look like I speak for my employer?
[ Parent ]

necessary scene maybe: delivered poorly (none / 0) (#394)
by JonDowland on Mon May 26, 2003 at 03:27:12 PM EST

"rave scene:  vivid and perhaps hedonistic portrayal of the remnants of humanity enjoying reality.  If you just found out that the last 20 years of your life were a computer simulation, you'd probably enjoy revaling in sensory pleasures as well.  Too long?  Well that's your call, but it was a necessary scene."

I dunno, I don't like the idea of everyone in the future being a rave/dance fan. I could imagine all the rockers sitting in a corner muttering together.

On a more serious note, projecting current music into future situations always results in a feeling of anachronism. I don't mean soundtrack (e.g. the propellerheads in M1) but characters actually _listening_ to music which is dated to our time.

[ Parent ]

Anomaly? (5.00 / 5) (#163)
by Elendur on Sat May 17, 2003 at 05:35:25 PM EST

The architect made up that bit about anomalies and remainders to cover his ass. The truth is that Neo is the result of memory leakage, and the system just has to be rebooted occasionally when this grows too large.

oh my... (none / 0) (#219)
by avdi on Sun May 18, 2003 at 03:06:18 PM EST

This is one of those few comments that literally made me LOL.  Something tells me that not only are you a hacker, but you've work in the Real World for awhile...

--
Now leave us, and take your fish with you. - Faramir
[ Parent ]
My thoughts exactly. (4.00 / 1) (#278)
by pauldamer on Mon May 19, 2003 at 03:46:42 PM EST

Neo as garbage collector.

[ Parent ]
Send in the Sheens (none / 0) (#310)
by Lemur on Tue May 20, 2003 at 11:08:03 AM EST

So Reloaded would really be a sequel to this?

*shudder*



[ Parent ]
Neo is The Devourer? (none / 0) (#362)
by marktaw on Fri May 23, 2003 at 04:17:06 AM EST

Nobody's gonna get that reference... And if you do, then you know the true inspiration for The Matrix.

[ Parent ]
You mean he is Galactus? (none / 0) (#391)
by hummassa on Mon May 26, 2003 at 03:14:37 PM EST

?

[ Parent ]
Nope (none / 0) (#395)
by marktaw on Mon May 26, 2003 at 10:00:24 PM EST

There was a video game during the 1980's about aliens that captured you and plopped you into this medieval fantasy world.... One of the characters was called The Devourer, and he came by when you got too many items. Rather than putting artificial limits on what you could carry/own it would come by and suck up items in your posession that were taking up too much memory. That's what I meant when I called Neo the Devourer. I don't think anyone figured out what the purpose of the Devourer was until one of the programmers revealed it over a decade after the game came out.

How does this relate to The Matrix? In a later game that was never made, you learn that you're actually plugged in to a computer simulation. I believe that in the final installment, you have a choice to continue living in the artificial world, take revenge on your captors, or return to Earth. The maker of the game said that he actually discussed his game with a couple of brothers in Los Angeles in the early to mid 90's.

The name is Alternate Reality. There were two installments, The City and The Dungeon.

Check out the FAQ.

http://w1.214.telia.com/~u21405572/alternate-reality/index.html

It's one of the few games from the 1980's that's still fun to play today (on emulator even!). The plot was non-linear, and your actions affected what people think of you. You could create friends & enemies in different parts of the Dungeon, and people would send assassins after you if you made enemies.

It's one part The Matrix, one part traditional RPG, and one part The Sims. You had to worry about getting sleep & being hungry or thirsty, so you were constantly balancing these things just like The Sims. It was very replayable.

I prefer the Dungeon to the City, but there are some things in the City that just have to be seen to be believed... like the sunsets. The colors of the city actually change gradually over a course of hours rather than all at once. And this was in 1983! I don't think any video game since has been able to do that.

[ Parent ]

question (none / 0) (#345)
by Prophet themusicgod1 on Thu May 22, 2003 at 01:02:00 AM EST

did you or did you not read the comics before you saw the film?
"I suspect the best way to deal with procrastination is to put off the procrastination itself until later. I've been meaning to try this, but haven't gotten around to it yet."swr
[ Parent ]
answer (none / 0) (#360)
by Elendur on Fri May 23, 2003 at 03:23:20 AM EST

I did not read any comics before seeing it. What comics are you referring to?

[ Parent ]
Star Wars (5.00 / 1) (#361)
by marktaw on Fri May 23, 2003 at 04:14:22 AM EST

Comics here:

http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_cmp/paul_new_frameset.html

The Matrix is not a movie, or even a series of movies. It's a universe for people to play in. Just like Star Wars.

[ Parent ]

Everything except (3.00 / 2) (#168)
by mmsmatt on Sat May 17, 2003 at 07:02:07 PM EST

the primitive Zion gathering and the other scene interlaced with it, was incredible.

The Matrix immerses us in its world. Reloaded explains its world. Get over it.

What I'd like to know: To what diety does the Priest pray?

How apt (4.00 / 2) (#324)
by yst on Wed May 21, 2003 at 04:26:04 AM EST

The Matrix immerses us in its world. Reloaded explains its world. Get over it. This remind anyone else of a prior series? "Highlander immerses us in its world. Highlander 2 explains its world. Get over it."

[ Parent ]
Yet another "older is better"... (3.00 / 5) (#172)
by Fen on Sat May 17, 2003 at 07:29:04 PM EST

Why is it so many blowhards think themselves so clever for liking an older, cheaper original? Oh wow I'm artsy-fartsy and special because I appreciate the original while everyone else likes the big budget sequel! Problem is when every blowhard does the same thing, you're not original at all, and in fact you're the one following the masses.
--Self.
ehh.. (none / 0) (#205)
by joto on Sun May 18, 2003 at 05:44:15 AM EST

Maybe because the older actually is better?

Maybe all those "blowhards" are more interested in giving an accurate description of the film, rather than that you should think they are clever.

Maybe they just tell you their opinion, instead of automatically doing "the opposite of the masses".

What kind of drugs are you on anyway?

[ Parent ]

Or not (none / 0) (#245)
by Josh A on Mon May 19, 2003 at 03:31:40 AM EST

Wow, way to jump to a conclusion.

From the looks of things, I'd guess that you saw something that could possibly look vaguely like "older is better" situations you've encountered in the past, decided that this was just such a situation, too, and then clicked and posted your comment.

[i] Oh wow I'm artsy-fartsy and special because I appreciate the original while everyone else likes the big budget sequel! [/i]

Perhaps you could provide some actual, specific quotes from the review that you feel support your characterization. Until then, I think we'll do well to dismiss it.

[i] Problem is when every blowhard does the same thing, you're not original at all[/i]

Great. So you've called the reviewer unoriginal. Which has exactly what relevance to a discussion on the movie? You've managed to ignore everything the author [i]said[/i], in favor of ad hominem attack. Ho, hum. Moving right along, back to the points at hand...

---
Thank God for Canada, if only because they annoy the Republicans so much. – Blarney


[ Parent ]
Problem is, when everyone likes the original... (none / 0) (#386)
by Shovas on Sun May 25, 2003 at 06:10:36 PM EST

It might just mean the original is better and nobody is trying to be uppity or a blowhard about it.
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
Teenager (2.00 / 3) (#179)
by NeoFan on Sat May 17, 2003 at 11:42:54 PM EST

The most disturbing development was the introduction of a teenaged male character, a kid who is beholden to Neo for saving his life. This boy didn't really do or say much in the Matrix Reloaded, but he's got some major Wesley Crusher potential for the third movie.
Did you actually watch the end of the movie? Zion is gone. Everyone there has been slaughtered. Most likely the kid is dead with all the rest. The only one that was allowed to live was the guy who's been infected with a trojan.

As far as where he came from, get the Animatrix when it comes out in June. That will explain where he came from.

Wow (4.66 / 3) (#180)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Sat May 17, 2003 at 11:52:31 PM EST

You misunderstood the movie excellently! The Agent Smith in the "real world" guy was the only survivor after he destroyed five ships by setting off an EMP during a human counterattack against the digging machines.

Zion still has some hours left to live.

Tim
"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

Mr. Smith and Agent Anderson (none / 0) (#416)
by spiros on Tue Jun 03, 2003 at 06:55:03 PM EST

And that's the reason why Neo has fallen into a comma. As Agent Smith is turning to a "real world" guy, Neo's nature is getting closer to being a machine and that is exactly why he is vulnerable to the EMP. Am I the only one how got it right?

[ Parent ]
all of zion, or just defensive ships? (4.50 / 2) (#181)
by zipporah on Sat May 17, 2003 at 11:57:25 PM EST

Was it all of zion, or just the defensive ships above zion?  I seem to recall it being the latter, not the former, but then again I've only seen it once.

And let me tell you, once was enough....

*possible spoiler*
Anyone else realize that the entire section in the middle with the french guy was just stuck in there for action scenes?  They could have the keymaker show up with the oracle near the beginning, and it would still all make sense.  Plenty more time for plot development too...
*end of spoiler*


[ Parent ]

you seem to be saying (none / 0) (#237)
by suntzu on Sun May 18, 2003 at 10:06:13 PM EST

that the story could've been developed differently if it'd been written differently. with which i agree. however, the french guy basically "owned" the keymaker, and so they had to break him out. a vehicle for action scenes? possibly. but the idea of it isn't all that out there considering the rest of the story, and the result (the highway chase scene) was pretty fuckin sweet.

[ Parent ]
um, excuse me.... (none / 0) (#265)
by joshsisk on Mon May 19, 2003 at 11:14:46 AM EST

Anyone else realize that the entire section in the middle with the french guy was just stuck in there for action scenes?  They could have the keymaker show up with the oracle near the beginning, and it would still all make sense.  Plenty more time for plot development too...

You do realize that the entire story is just there for action scenes, right? That applies to this one AND the first one.
--
logjamming.com : web hosting for weblogs, NOT gay lumberjack porn
[ Parent ]

Bzzt. You lose. Please play again. (none / 0) (#231)
by porkchop_d_clown on Sun May 18, 2003 at 09:24:10 PM EST

Zion hasn't been hit yet (at the end of the second movie). What was hit was the defensive fleet, which had moved up into some pipes closer to the surface in order to attack the drill.


--
Fishing for Men, Trolling for Newbies, what's the difference?


[ Parent ]
But you win! (2.60 / 5) (#282)
by anagram on Mon May 19, 2003 at 05:04:09 PM EST

You win the first annual condescending bastard "Bzzzt" award. Kudos for continuing to innovate in the field of acting superior. Nothing says "I know useless trivia better than you" like picking nits in the voice of a gameshow host.

[ Parent ]
my percentage rating: (none / 0) (#189)
by antispamist on Sun May 18, 2003 at 01:21:48 AM EST

Overall : 4.5/10

9.5 for graphics
3 for story/plot.
2 for cinematics.

A useless endevor that will certainly leave u wanting less but getting more.
Well... (none / 0) (#263)
by esch on Mon May 19, 2003 at 11:08:57 AM EST

Are your ratings weighted? Assuming you're using a 10 point scale for all 3 catagories it should have scored at a 4.83.

[ Parent ]
rounded ratings system (none / 0) (#363)
by antispamist on Fri May 23, 2003 at 04:19:03 AM EST

Hope that helps you sleep at night. :) Sorry did the math in my head to the closest 1/2.

A useless endevor that will certainly leave u wanting less but getting more.
[ Parent ]
Geeze. (4.00 / 1) (#364)
by marktaw on Fri May 23, 2003 at 04:50:55 AM EST

Like the math is the most important part. The most important part is being able to weight the list however you want by what you put on the list:

Special Effects: 10
Cinematogrpahy: 10
Soundtrack: 10
Plot: 0

Average Score: 7.5

Hmmm. Methinks there's something wrong with this.

[ Parent ]

My Two Cents (5.00 / 5) (#191)
by Arkaein on Sun May 18, 2003 at 01:45:20 AM EST

I think that the reviewer, as well as many others, are being far too harsh on M2. It either didn't live up to the hype, or to M1, and this makes it "suck" apparently.

I must disagree. I left the movie Friday afternoon, not thinking it was a great move, but that it was a very good movie. M1 was a great movie, one of the greatest I've ever seen. I left the theater thinking that I had just seen the best action sequences ever shown on the silver screen, worth the ticket price all by themselves.

I had read a few mini-reviews before hand, I think this helped by preparing me for the slow start to the movie, and making me lower my expectations just slightly, because of a few complaints about no plot (though I don't know where these came from, really). I agreed that the first forty minutes or so were kinda slow, that the speech given by Morpheous was not all that great, kinda tedious, and that in places it was a bit hard to follow, especially at the end. I think this is because after M1 we have this neat, tidy view of what the Matrix really is, and throughout M2 we are given a lot more depth of information, a left with more questions than we started with.

I don't really understand the complaints about the acting. This isn't Shakespeare, not one should expect it to be, but I really didn't see any deep flaws, even from Keanu. There are a lot of complaints about the dialog and some of the monlogues, but I liked the style of the French dude, he had character. I loved the tension in the scene with Persephone (I think that's her name) and Neo.

I have concluded after more thought and reading of comments that M2 is not as good as M1, though still very worthwhile. I had wanted to watch M1 again before seeing M2, but not having gotten to it I watched M1 tonight. I decided that M1 definitely had better flow to it than M2, there was no wasted time, no holes that needed to be filled. I was a bit surprised to see the scene with Morpheous being taken as being about 1:15 into the movie, it's easy to forget that most of the movie is really spent developing the world of the Matrix and introducing Neo to it. Every action sequence fit tightly into the plot. M2 did not have this flow. I think that my most negative feelings are largely due to the abrupt cutoff at the end, this really is just half of the second Matrix story. I'm looking forward to seeing it again soon. As another poster pointed out, although the plot is more convoluted in M2 than M1, it is because there is greater depth, and I am sure that I will get more out of later viewings.

----
The ultimate plays for Madden 2003-2006

It was a different movie. (4.66 / 3) (#207)
by kesuari on Sun May 18, 2003 at 09:18:16 AM EST

The Matrix Reloaded was a different movie from the Matrix. If you watch it in the context of the first, it sucks. If you watch it as its own, it was damn good.

But the undead do rock.

It's a hallmark moment. (4.66 / 3) (#208)
by JVStalin on Sun May 18, 2003 at 09:23:01 AM EST

I, actually, really enjoyed Reloaded. I probably enjoyed it more so than The Matrix. While Reloaded didn't really impress me with special effects -- I was still as immersed within the story line. I watched The Matrix around twenty times and I thought this was an awesome successor. I have this sort of "wonder" for the Matrix. I let my guard down before I watched it, I wasn't very critical -- I just wanted to enjoy an installment in my favorite series. Well, whatever. That's my two cents. I'll also be first in line for Revolutions. I hope the Matrix Reloaded DVD is released before November.

Grammar nazi (none / 0) (#294)
by p3d0 on Mon May 19, 2003 at 10:34:51 PM EST

I probably enjoyed it more so than The Matrix/
The word you're looking for is "more". There's no need for the "so" unless there's there's an adjective or adverb you don't want to repeat. For instance, if you say "Reloaded was good; perhaps more so than the original" then that makes sense, because the "so" takes the place of "good".
--
Patrick Doyle
My comments do not reflect the opinions of my employer.
[ Parent ]
I probably enjoyed it more good than The Matrix! (none / 0) (#297)
by Happy Monkey on Mon May 19, 2003 at 11:14:49 PM EST

nt (no room for nt in subject)
___
Length 17, Width 3
[ Parent ]
Don't forget Mercutio... (4.50 / 2) (#209)
by jabber on Sun May 18, 2003 at 10:32:02 AM EST

You know, the new Tank/Dozer guy. He's the right color, but has no personality at all.

Morpheus: "You have to trust me, Jar-Jar Guy!"

Jar-Jar: "Woo-hoo! But, do people gonna die?! I can't handle dis!"

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"

Here's how it goes, ladies and children (none / 0) (#210)
by Sir Altoid on Sun May 18, 2003 at 10:38:07 AM EST

Awright here's some other stuff that the reviewer left out (I personally liked Reloaded but hey, he has some good points).

  1. The soundtrack is saved by the songs playing in the end credits: RATM in Calm Like A Bomb, LP in Session, and other stuff that I didn't recognize or bother to find out what it was; well, that was pretty good too.

  2. The credits are TOO FUCKING LONG, but its only salvation is that there's a little teaser at the end of that 10+ minute saga for Revelations. It looks pretty good, and is actually a trailer, without major plot points.

  3. The French dude, Merovingian, is the best character in the movie. Anyone who can wipe their ass with silk and then get head in the ladies' room has my vote.

  4. As an avid CS player, I feel cool and special because I can recognize the gun that Sigfried (or maybe Roy, I can't tell them apart) is holding in the car chase scene. It's an UMP-45 submachine gun. I know I'm right because it's the best gun in the damn game.

The most disturbing development was the introduction of a teenaged male character, a kid who is beholden to Neo for saving his life. This boy didn't really do or say much in the Matrix Reloaded, but he's got some major Wesley Crusher potential for the third movie. I can only hope that his role is instrumental in showing us what happens when a Sentinel meets flesh and blood. Surely those laser tentacles are good for something.

That makes my day. Even though I liked Reloaded, that part of the review is the reason I give this a +1 FP.  

There's no such thing as a stupid question. There *are*, however, stupid people without answers.

Oh come on (none / 0) (#224)
by wji on Sun May 18, 2003 at 06:15:54 PM EST

What, did you grab a ruler and measure the barell diameter? How do you know it's not a UMP .40 or a UMP 9mm, huh? It's a Hecker und Koch *Universal* machine pistol. That's what you get for taking your gun knowledge from CS :)

In conclusion, the Powerpuff Girls are a reactionary, pseudo-feminist enterprise.
[ Parent ]
You seem to be a gun guy... (none / 0) (#262)
by fn0rd on Mon May 19, 2003 at 11:07:41 AM EST

What the heck kind of pistol was Persephone packing? Is that a real gun? It looked very chic.

--------------------------------------------------------------
This fatwa brought to you by the Agnostic Jihad
Death to the fidels!

[ Parent ]
French dude (5.00 / 5) (#225)
by enterfornone on Sun May 18, 2003 at 06:29:17 PM EST

Keep in mind that the French dude is a computer program who only "gets head in the ladies room" inside a computer. So he is just like your average K5 poster.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
Hhaha (none / 0) (#227)
by ThreadSafe on Sun May 18, 2003 at 08:35:56 PM EST

Nice

Make a clone of me. And fucking listen to it! - Faik
[ Parent ]

ROFL (4.50 / 2) (#216)
by meyou on Sun May 18, 2003 at 02:34:34 PM EST

Excellent choice of words!

I read a comment by someone who said something like get a life, it's just a movie. Well, if PR-people say you can compare this movie to Nietzsche and Kant, I think they want you to believe it's not just a movie.

These lines of crap should always be debunked! If a movie is nothing more than an action flic, people should not claim that it is ...



honestly (none / 0) (#236)
by suntzu on Sun May 18, 2003 at 09:41:21 PM EST

kant's writing just never impressed me that much. he has some good ideas, but takes them in some wierd directions that don't logically follow for me (such as his claim that suicide is immoral). haven't read much nietzsche at all, so i can't comment on that part. but i've never seen kant as any sort of philosophical gold standard.

[ Parent ]
kant (4.00 / 1) (#255)
by raukea on Mon May 19, 2003 at 09:24:37 AM EST

is taken as a gold standard because of his influence in the Rationalist Empiricist argument. His answer to Hume's skepticism being that the world is orderd according to our senses and that the world 'an sich', is not possible for us to perceive or even know in anyways. Thence the impossibility of gaining real answers from logic to such questions as the existence of god, a lack which Kant dodges like the good protestant he was in raising the importance of faith in the equation. So i guess the bit about suicide is connected to his christianity as well. Ah well, who knows. But I never understood how people got so worked up a bout the philosophical dimensions of matrix, they're pretty superficial and there to support the fiction. It was a bautiful movie and has lots in favour of it, but really the philosophy bit was about as credible as the stuff in star wars.

[ Parent ]
the reason people get so worked up (4.00 / 1) (#277)
by suntzu on Mon May 19, 2003 at 03:42:54 PM EST

is because the people who talk about the matrix's philosphy are divided into two main groups: those who already thought about this sort of thing, and those who didn't. for those who already have, it can come off as somewhat superficial. for those who haven't, they just might not get it, so they complain about it being bullshit.

regardless, i think that the philosophy is at least consistent and interesting, and certainly has more depth than even your average non-action movie. and certainly more than "use the force." sometimes the complaints about the philosophy in the matrix just ring of elitism, the whole "oh, well, everyone's thought through all of these issues before, in much greater depth." and that's just not true.

[ Parent ]

Matrix philosophy (none / 0) (#328)
by raukea on Wed May 21, 2003 at 01:06:24 PM EST

has the problem of inconsistency. But of course that is because of the limitations of movie format and the need to get some speed into to act. While it's true that it starts off at the right point it steps into mysticism and a sort of buddhist oriented stance at somepoint. It's true that Star Wars is not really comparable, just marginally. But the main weakness of the philosophy part is that, like I said, it just supports the fictional story. If every people in matrix is actually a real person, then our heroes keep on exterminating them at a speed which defies the serene ponderings of the beginning. But not criticize, just to point out, that if the philosophy was in a greater part, or even significant in other ways except for the aesthetics of the world pictured, it would not have been as popular.
Quod me nutrit, me destruit.
[ Parent ]
logs (3.50 / 2) (#229)
by gdanjo on Sun May 18, 2003 at 09:11:27 PM EST

Did anyone else notice actual unix log when trinity was shutting down the powergrid? (err, sploiler warning)

They were using ssh, no less, and connected to 10.1.1.2 if I remember correctly.

Fuck I'm a nerd.

Anyway, were the Wachowski brothers programmers in a former life? The whole computer-as-a-god theme has, as you succinctly pointed out, run out of ideas and has now merged with classical story telling - becoming quite insipid. Perhaps it's because I've gotten over my computers-are-the-salvation period.

Dan ...
"Death - oh! fair and `guiling copesmate Death!
Be not a malais'd beggar; claim this bloody jester!"
-ToT

re: logs (none / 0) (#234)
by suntzu on Sun May 18, 2003 at 09:38:25 PM EST

yeah, i noticed the ssh thing too, thought it was kind of cool.

as far as the "computer as god" thing goes, i think they're more on the "computer as another sentient being" thing. humans are fighting for something, machines are fighting for something. not necissarily for some greater "purpose," but because that's how they're wired to work (both humans and machines). i think that keeps it interesting. i wouldn't go so far as to call it insipid. it's certainly philosophically deeper and more interesting than what most people normally think about, and certainly moreso than your average summer blockbuster.

[ Parent ]

and one more thing (none / 0) (#235)
by suntzu on Sun May 18, 2003 at 09:39:24 PM EST

when i watched the commentary track on "Bound" (their first movie), i seem to remember them saying they were plumbers at one point, but they never mentioned programming.

[ Parent ]
are their names mario and luigi? [n/t] (5.00 / 1) (#241)
by gdanjo on Mon May 19, 2003 at 12:14:17 AM EST


"Death - oh! fair and `guiling copesmate Death!
Be not a malais'd beggar; claim this bloody jester!"
-ToT
[ Parent ]
were the Wachowski brothers programmers (none / 0) (#253)
by the on Mon May 19, 2003 at 08:32:48 AM EST

No, carpenters

--
The Definite Article
[ Parent ]
If you were really a nerd ... (none / 0) (#269)
by olfhq on Mon May 19, 2003 at 02:01:42 PM EST

You would have noticed that Trinity used NMAP and used an SSH v1 exploit to log in as root on 10.2.2.2 /shrug

[ Parent ]
Carrie-Anne has the hots for Fyodor!? (none / 0) (#303)
by polyglot on Tue May 20, 2003 at 02:10:34 AM EST

From: Fyodor [mailto:fyodor@insecure.org]
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 5:17 AM
To: nmap-hackers@insecure.org
Subject: Whoa!

Hi Everyone.  There is a disturbance in the force!  You may recall a couple
weeks ago that MS started recommending Nmap on some of their web pages.
That was strange, but I did not foresee the anomalous omens that would

ensue.

Like almost any self-respecting geek, I bought tickets to 'Matrix: Reloaded'
several weeks back (no spoilers, I promise).  After all, who can resist the
combination of philosophical mind games and Trinity (Carrie-Anne Moss) in
that tight leather bodysuit?

So after waiting an hour in a line snaking out of the theatre to the parking
lot, I finally got in to my 10pm Wednesday showing.  All was going well
until Trinity needed to do some hacking.  Oh, no!  I was sure we'd see a
silly "Hackers"-esque 3D animated "hacking scene". Not so!  Trinity is as
smart as she is seductive!  She whips out Nmap (!!!), scans her target, finds
22/tcp open, and proceeds with an über ssh technique!
I was so surprised, I almost jumped out of my seat and did the "r00t dance"
right there in the theatre!

There can be only one explanation: Carie-Anne has the hots for me!

Now your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to secure a screen-shot
of that few-second episode!  Not only is it important for the coolness
factor, but we can learn how Nmap looks in the future by studying that
output!  So perhaps some of you gray hats in the audience have a quality
DivX/MPG of the movie already?  Let me know if you do (but no 2GB email
attachments please!)  Or perhaps someone could sneak a quiet flashless
digital camera into the theatre and take a shot.  But you must react quickly
as it is literally only up for a few seconds (Nmap is actually fast in the
future).  Do this, and you will prove that you are truly "the one"!  I'll
also put your name and a thumbnail on the front page of Insecure.Org if you
send in the best shot.

In other news, a few people have inquired about further survey results.
Sorry I have been so slow, but things have been very busy. I'm pretty sure
I'll be able to send more by next week.  I hope to have a couple other
announcements ready for next week as well!

Keep it real,
Fyodor

--------------------------------------------------
For help using this (nmap-hackers) mailing list, send a blank email to
nmap-hackers-help@insecure.org . List run by ezmlm-idx (www.ezmlm.org).

See also of course http://insecure.org/ which has it in more detail, including a screenshot.
--
"There is no God and Dirac is his prophet"
     -- Wolfgang Pauli
‮־
[ Parent ]

The Government Wants You to See This Movie (4.50 / 4) (#230)
by coljac on Sun May 18, 2003 at 09:18:14 PM EST

Right on with the review. It was a mighty mighty suckalicious sucktanza.

The thing about the "philosophy" in the movie, if you could call it that, was not simply that it was dull, vacuous and contradictory. The parts that made sense are actually quite poisonous. To me the the message of the movie was "don't bother choosing... The choices have already been made.. everything is meant to be... Everything happens for a reason..." If I was paranoid I'd think it was subtle government propaganda to soften us up for something sinister. Maybe they're fattening us up as food.



---
Whether or not life is discovered there I think Jupiter should be declared an enemy planet. - Jack Handey

not to be a matrix apologist or anything... (none / 0) (#233)
by suntzu on Sun May 18, 2003 at 09:34:15 PM EST

but...

1) where was the contradictory stuff? i don't think every character is saying something that's in line with what the writers believe or want the audience to believe. just because a character says something doesn't mean you should buy it. i liked that a lot.

2) your complaint about everything being decided will be a lot more valid when you also prove that the universe isn't deterministic. even if you don't believe it is, it's an interesting point of view. you putting too much into it when you turn it into this whole "the government is using the matrix movies to keep us down" thing. that's ridiculous. and i don't think the point was that everything happens for a reason, but that it happens, and that the closest you can get to understanding purpose is to understand the causal chain that made certain things happen. interesting. certainly more intelligent than even your average movie (action or otherwise).

[ Parent ]

not that it matters... (1.00 / 1) (#243)
by Josh A on Mon May 19, 2003 at 03:18:11 AM EST

certainly more intelligent than even your average movie

Yes, not to mention more intelligent than most of the people who will go see it. I heard a lot of comments regarding confusion on my way out of the theater, and not only did both of the people in the car with me proclaim "I didn't get it.", one tried to prevent conversation on the subject, saying "Too much thinking for this time of night."

What's that about? One of them is very smart, too... I don't think I want to go new-friend-hunting just yet, but was the movie really that confounding?

---
Thank God for Canada, if only because they annoy the Republicans so much. – Blarney


[ Parent ]
one point... (none / 0) (#276)
by ph0rk on Mon May 19, 2003 at 03:31:57 PM EST

Didn't you notice that everyone spouting the deterministic propaganda was a program?

Isn't obvious that programs would think that way?  (Including the bit about causality, if you believe in only causality, thats not too far from determinism.)

Just because the oracle and everyone else says it is one way, doesn't make it so.

.
[ f o r k . s c h i z o i d . c o m ]
[ Parent ]

Hmm (none / 0) (#281)
by coljac on Mon May 19, 2003 at 05:00:36 PM EST

That's quite an insightful comment, I wish I could believe the writers of the movie were so subtle.

But don't forget, Morpheus was spouting his share of prophecy nonsense. Prophecy = determinism.



---
Whether or not life is discovered there I think Jupiter should be declared an enemy planet. - Jack Handey
[ Parent ]

Morpheus (none / 0) (#296)
by Happy Monkey on Mon May 19, 2003 at 11:11:13 PM EST

swallowed the Oracle's story - hook, line, and sinker. I expect his plot arc in the next movie will include some heavy-duty anti-Oracle soul searching.
___
Length 17, Width 3
[ Parent ]
Re: Morpheus and Propoganda (none / 0) (#307)
by marktaw on Tue May 20, 2003 at 04:16:50 AM EST

True that everyone spouting deterministic propoganda was a program, and it stands to reason that a program is created for a reason and wants to fulfil it's destiny - the reason it was created. (can I say "reason" one more time?)

At the end of the movie, in typical Neo fashion, he tells Morpheus that the prophecy is a lie without any more explanation than that and Morpheus tells Neo that he won't believe it.

Oddly enough, Neo doesn't even begin to explain the phd level crap colonel sanders was spouting, just as he doesn't explain to Trinity why she should stay out of The Matrix. I think that both of these are major plot points. If Neo only explained to these people about his dreams and experiences then he could get some feedback and maybe actually solve a problem.

But, like in the first movie, Neo plays dumb and by doing so, advances the plot.

[ Parent ]

We'll see the true message.. (none / 0) (#377)
by MuteWinter on Sat May 24, 2003 at 09:58:04 AM EST

when the final movie comes out.

[ Parent ]
Too harsh (4.00 / 2) (#240)
by Space on Sun May 18, 2003 at 11:52:06 PM EST

I think this review was far too harsh. Granted it didn't begin well, starting with a dream was kinda hackey, zion screamed star wars and the rave/sex scene was dumb but besides these things I think the rest of the movie was excellent. If I had stepped into the cinema 20 minutes late I wouldn't have a bad thing to say about the movie. Perhaps anime fans might find reloaded more pallatable because reloaded is less story driven than it's predecessor and a little more on the philisophical side exploring causation, rational choice and freedom of will rather than soapbox postmodern themes like is reality really real.
<recycle your pets>
I haven't seen it mentioned (none / 0) (#242)
by hstink on Mon May 19, 2003 at 01:15:44 AM EST

But when I saw the multiple TV screens of Neo during the architect scene, I immediately assumed that they were different threads of his consciousness which the architect had access to and was displaying to demonstrate such (I don't believe they were past Neo's, since one told the others to shut up).

The only sensible way the architect could access his inner thoughts were if Neo himself was a program that the architect could access.  Or did I misunderstand the entire scene?

-h

erm (none / 0) (#244)
by delmoi on Mon May 19, 2003 at 03:29:37 AM EST

I think one of them was telling the architecht to shut up.
--
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
[ Parent ]
Most definitely (none / 0) (#252)
by 4th Ace on Mon May 19, 2003 at 08:08:00 AM EST

With the one-finger salute (maybe there was a couple of them doing this).

[ Parent ]
Hm (none / 0) (#271)
by hstink on Mon May 19, 2003 at 02:50:57 PM EST

I thought the head that said it had turned to the other monitors, whispered "shut up!", and immediately the others silenced, as if he was trying to quiet his thoughts and think clearly.

It would help explain why there is such thing as "The One" at all, since it would be the governing program creating a root account every so often, instead of genetics creating a person with an altered brain.  The architect did say that "The One" was an anomoly after all.

-h

[ Parent ]

Hacking Neo (none / 0) (#306)
by marktaw on Tue May 20, 2003 at 04:09:56 AM EST

If Neo is plugged in to The Matrix in such a way that he can dodge bullets, or alter physics, it stands to reason that he's plugged in on a very deep level... Below rational thought, on the instinct level.

So even his basest thoughts should be readable by anyone with access to his data stream.

[ Parent ]

I thought they were (none / 0) (#318)
by ZanThrax on Tue May 20, 2003 at 11:12:54 PM EST

representing a prediction scheme involving simulating a few thousand responses; thus denial is the most predictable response because all the simulations always start with denial.

Destructive, evil, vile behaviour, focused on an enemy, is a a pretty good evolutionary strategy, right up until you run out of enemies.
[ Parent ]

Agent Smith (none / 0) (#339)
by mmsmatt on Wed May 21, 2003 at 08:23:25 PM EST

Perhaps he did some good when he tried to take over Neo's conscious.

[ Parent ]
fractal (none / 0) (#344)
by Prophet themusicgod1 on Thu May 22, 2003 at 12:56:14 AM EST

i thought each of them(neos) was one of his predecessors, or those yet to come. but mabye thats too strong...
"I suspect the best way to deal with procrastination is to put off the procrastination itself until later. I've been meaning to try this, but haven't gotten around to it yet."swr
[ Parent ]
re: I haven't seen it mentioned (2.00 / 1) (#349)
by SOAD on Thu May 22, 2003 at 03:08:05 PM EST

I've got some news for you... your brain is nothing but a biological computer. The Merovingian (or however u spell it) explains this in detail, how someone's reactions to stimuli can be predicted. It's all cause and effect. The architect knows all the causes and he knows all the possible outcomes and also which one will be chosen based upon the machine's knowledge of the human brain This is all the architect does except on a much larger scale.

[ Parent ]
Smith (none / 0) (#251)
by gorme on Mon May 19, 2003 at 06:30:44 AM EST

I don't think Smith does. In each case he took someone over it was in the Matrix. The traitor seemed to have been taken over but this could be a contamination from the Matrix.

Missing somethings? (3.66 / 3) (#266)
by gethane on Mon May 19, 2003 at 11:59:07 AM EST

Hmm, now although I agree the second wasn't as good as the first (how could it be? the first came up with "an original idea", well kinda) I think perhaps you are missing something.

In my opinion, the movie was meant to be over the top. Those scenes that are just so over the top are commenting on the media/movie culture. I found them funny.

Anyone else notice the music? If you listen to the music that's playing in the 'over the top' scenes, you'll realize that the scene is 1)making fun of something, or 2) paying tribute to something.

Example: Bad 70's sounding cop show music during the freeway scene.. UNTIL the semi scene.. then you hear Terminator music. That's pretty subtle.

In my opinion the W brothers are almost making fun of their success. The matrix is a comic book/superhero. It isn't supposed to be serious. I giggled everytime Neo flew, I giggled during the AgentSmith to the nth power fight scene. I thought that that scene was either making fun, or paying tribute to some of the old Jackie Chan films where one guy beats down dozens.

Am I the only one who is seeing this? The movie was one big ironic joke, and I mean that in a good way.

That's entirely possible, (none / 0) (#385)
by Shovas on Sun May 25, 2003 at 06:06:19 PM EST

But man, that would really suck if the W. Brothers really went and did that. They had something good going in first movie and it would've been wild to have an entire trilogy of smart, subtle plot and dialogue.

They really screwed with what could've been a gem series.

What I've always been expecting is the three movies. It would've been great if they had done it right for once. It seems to me every single movie that is good enough to warrant sequels really ruins the entire purpose.

It would've been so much better if they had been trying to say something useful, in a low-key, smooth way instead of the over-the-top, self-abasement, making-fun-of-the-genre, etc., production you say they made. Personally, I didn't get that from Reloaded. All I got from Reloaded was an attempt at The Matrix but with a budget much too big for their britches and the entire production hijacked by the idiotic pop-culture drowned rats in the movie industry.

All I can wonder now is if the W. Brothers can actually redeem themselves or fall to the lure of the Dollar Almighty.

PS. Does anyone remember in high school when you learned some nifty piece of philosophy or saw or read a cool piece that really made you think and you went and attempted to write something just as grand and deep? And it absolutely reaked of amateurish follow-through? That's what this movie made me think of. They tried so hard to make an intelligent movie and it came off so brutish and outlandish as to be laughabl as a petty attempt.
---
Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
---
Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
[ Parent ]
you would've know of its suckage had you read this (5.00 / 1) (#270)
by tralfamadore on Mon May 19, 2003 at 02:22:23 PM EST

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/film/matrix50.html

dr. oxford is truly a god among men.

UTTER CRAP!!! (1.50 / 2) (#272)
by mrondello on Mon May 19, 2003 at 03:02:58 PM EST

3. I'm dreaming of a white... cast?

Two actors were abruptly cut from the sequel cast before production ended, both female minorities. Coincidence?

Aaliyah and Gloria Foster were unceremonially dropped after shooting some scenes for the sequel. What's wrong, guys? They didn't test well with the predominantly white Matrix audiences?

Neither actress could be reached for comment.

UMMMM....... The two actresses DIED during filming. I can see why corpses would be cut from the movie.

[ Parent ]
well that answers the question (1.00 / 1) (#275)
by tralfamadore on Mon May 19, 2003 at 03:27:30 PM EST

would kuro5hin get the joke?

please read the website it's on before being stupid. as you are.

stupid.

[ Parent ]

dag nammit !!!! (none / 0) (#290)
by mrondello on Mon May 19, 2003 at 09:21:39 PM EST

I thought I would get away with that premature post. I read through three and then posted, I read the rest then smacked myself in the head. That page is actually pretty funny. I like the way it started with columbine, it made it appear like a rabid anti-movie post. That is what got me, it first appeared like a random uninformed web page because of the columbine post.

What makes it more embarrassing for me is that I succomed to that page not once but twice

[ Parent ]
Nooooooo! (4.00 / 1) (#285)
by rantweasel on Mon May 19, 2003 at 06:48:43 PM EST

That really sucked.  Sure, some of it was funny, but if you can't come up with 50 funny trolling bits, just make it a list of 40 funny trolling bits.  Or, in this case, 5 or so.

mathias

[ Parent ]

The funniest part (none / 0) (#309)
by p3d0 on Tue May 20, 2003 at 09:02:39 AM EST

That list is quite a good troll. I really thought he believed that stuff at first.

But the funniest one has to be #8 (emphasis his):

I'm not joking; you'll literally feel your I.Q. drop watching this rubbish. For instance, the evil Matrix creates two new enemies for Neo, called the Twins. Their first priority is to blend discreetly into the simulated world of the Matrix, to walk among the people unnoticed. So of course the Matrix made them huge albino men with bleach-white dreadlocks who occasionally transform into shrieking wraiths.

"What's that, honey?"

"Oh, nothing. It just looks like a simple Kung-Fu Swedish Rastafarian Helldemon. I'm sure there's no need to question our fragile, sheltered grasp of 'reality' as we know it."


--
Patrick Doyle
My comments do not reflect the opinions of my employer.
[ Parent ]
Another opinion (none / 0) (#291)
by p3d0 on Mon May 19, 2003 at 10:13:07 PM EST

I liked your review, but I also thoroughly enjoyed this movie.

Think of it as Jacky Chan does Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon in cyberspace. Jacky Chan movies (at least the older ones) are an excuse for great fight scenes where our hero always wins. That's why I like them, and that's one reason I liked CTHD, and that's why I liked this. Plus, this had some thought-proviking puzzles thrown in, great special effects, and a whopper of a chase scene.

I think if you want to enjoy it, you need to let yourself get involved with it, and don't think so hard that you get pulled out of it (just like if you try not to think too hard about how the human-battery thing relates to the laws of thermodynamics, the first movie very enjoyable).

For me, there were three things that pulled me out of the movie:

<SPOILERS>

  • The awful soundtrack. 1/3 of the music was pretty good. 1/3 was adequate. 1/3 (yes, that's 45 minutes) was distractingly ham-handed and jarringly inappropriate. So just say "wow, that song sucks" and then get back into the movie.
  • The porno scnene near the beginning. Yes, I get it already: up there is fake, down here is real; up there is mental, down here is physical; up there is cold, down there is warm; up there is cruel, down there is loving. Enough already. But this is a self-contained scene, and when it's finally over, it's easy to get back into the action.
  • "Because I love you too damn much." Enough said. I recommend you imagine he just didn't say anything at all, and the scene will be vastly improved.
</SPOILERS>

Anyway, with its flaws, I haven't enjoyed a movie this much in a long time. But then, this is my kind of movie.
--
Patrick Doyle
My comments do not reflect the opinions of my employer.

perhaps (none / 0) (#343)
by Prophet themusicgod1 on Thu May 22, 2003 at 12:52:54 AM EST

i saw the love as more of a 'we are human, as human we are alive'. i personally dont like pron in my movies that much but to this ill make an exception. its not the induvidual...its the group. the group was self-experiencing the growing, realizing its will to sex and growing. until this is seen in perspective the rest of the movie probly doesnt make any sense.
"I suspect the best way to deal with procrastination is to put off the procrastination itself until later. I've been meaning to try this, but haven't gotten around to it yet."swr
[ Parent ]
Sex... (none / 0) (#348)
by marktaw on Thu May 22, 2003 at 03:44:16 AM EST

The 2nd Matrix parallels the 1st one fairly closely actually... The sex scene happens right around the same time as the speech from Mouse that if we deny our own impulses, we deny what makes us human.

[ Parent ]
you noticed that too? (none / 0) (#368)
by Prophet themusicgod1 on Fri May 23, 2003 at 05:46:21 PM EST

i was wondering about that...but i figured id have to see both again to compare times / etc...
"I suspect the best way to deal with procrastination is to put off the procrastination itself until later. I've been meaning to try this, but haven't gotten around to it yet."swr
[ Parent ]
I dunno about minutes and seconds (none / 0) (#374)
by marktaw on Sat May 24, 2003 at 03:30:00 AM EST

I dunno about minutes and seconds but it happens around the same time in the plot. "We are humans, hear us roar." Merovignian around the time of the Oracle.

In the larger scheme of things, Colonel Sanders is now the Oracle in the two movie series.

There are only so many plots in the real world, or in The Matrix.

So when is Pink Floyd going to write an album that we can listen to while watching The Matrix?

[ Parent ]

I kinda liked it but.... (none / 0) (#299)
by marktaw on Mon May 19, 2003 at 11:28:22 PM EST

I found that the plot was full of holes, and the philsophy both weak and heavy handed.

More here:

http://www.marktaw.com/reviews/TheMatrixReloaded.html

they sure, killed the guru (none / 0) (#300)
by chanio on Tue May 20, 2003 at 12:04:24 AM EST

minimalism and no fanatism

There's always less to say to be believed.

Then, the excesses are ways of suitting an idea to satisfy everyone.

That's money from the granny...

Another sort of window program


________________
Farenheit Binman:
This worlds culture is throwing away-burning thousands of useful concepts because they don't fit in their commercial frame.
My chance of becoming intelligent!
What the fuck is... (none / 0) (#304)
by ThreadSafe on Tue May 20, 2003 at 03:37:01 AM EST

this ssh exploit that everyone is going on about? What the fuck does ssh stand for? why has the fucking ping command gone missing from my PC? Why the fuck am I logged onto this gay website anyway?

Seriously though... someone explain the ssh thing. (I'm too lazy to go google-ing for it)

Make a clone of me. And fucking listen to it! - Faik

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/30747.html (none / 0) (#305)
by marktaw on Tue May 20, 2003 at 04:07:31 AM EST

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/30747.html

[ Parent ]
FUCK DUDE... (none / 0) (#316)
by ThreadSafe on Tue May 20, 2003 at 08:53:25 PM EST

Nice fucking layout on that website of yours!

Haven't read any of the content yet so you could be full of shit, but it looks real good.

What software do you use to run a site like that?

Make a clone of me. And fucking listen to it! - Faik
[ Parent ]

marktaw.com? (none / 0) (#317)
by marktaw on Tue May 20, 2003 at 10:22:10 PM EST

www.marktaw.com ? I use CityDesk. It's not even server side, but it works for me. I guess a nice feature is that my site stays on my computer and the site serves up super fast, being static HTML and all. Plus Google loves it.

I assure you, I'm not full of shit.

[ Parent ]

I don't know if you're still reading replies (3.00 / 1) (#311)
by ubu on Tue May 20, 2003 at 12:05:53 PM EST

But this review rocks. Spot on. The movie sucked hard for all the reasons you mention. Some funny shit, guy, and spot on. Colonel Sanders, indeed. Jesus, what a fucking waste of my money.

Ubu


--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
Thanks. (none / 0) (#355)
by ktakki on Thu May 22, 2003 at 10:11:04 PM EST

Yeah, I've been reading the comments; a few made me laugh so hard I squirted coffee out of my eyelids. I feel like I've pissed on a nest of red ant fanboys and now they're after me with their sharp clicky mandibles, ready to rend the flesh from my bones.

Giving a speech on gun control at an NRA convention couldn't approach this level of rancor.


k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

[ Parent ]

There was a review? (none / 0) (#358)
by marktaw on Thu May 22, 2003 at 11:29:58 PM EST

I enjoyed the review... but really it's just an excuse to talk about the movie.

[ Parent ]
There is no review. (none / 0) (#359)
by ktakki on Thu May 22, 2003 at 11:54:33 PM EST

Then you'll see that it is not the review that bends, it is only yourself.


k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

[ Parent ]

I like to think that the 6th iteration is about (none / 0) (#319)
by ZanThrax on Tue May 20, 2003 at 11:55:25 PM EST

taking the reality questioning mindfuck in a new direction. The world we're living in now (the same one Neo was living in in the Matrix) is the sixth iteration.

Between being told the age of Zion (~100 years) and being told that it is created by 23 people right at the restart, we know that around three generations of people have lived their entire lives in the current iteration. We're shown programs that live and act as normal people in Reloaded, and if something like the agents in both can be part of the matrix, then all the people who populate an iteration at the start point can reasonably be programs. With programs already populating the imaginary world, new human minds can be raised to believe that their imaginary world is real and that it has centuries of history. Now, who says that the previous iterations had to be the same sort of world? Earlier iterations could have been simulations of different types of human civilization entirely. Each of the major periods of our history and mythical history are different iterations of the Matrix. And since it would be just as wasteful to throw out that artificial history as it would be to simply dispose of all the old agents, each iteration's history and mythology is written from the history of the previous iterations. Thus, the first iteration was heaven, and has been written into later iterations as the Eden story. As the iterations change, the rules of reality are fundamentaly different as well. Monsters and magic were real two or three iterations ago. We fear the men in black today where previous iterations feared vampires or sorcerers. Later iterations will fear something else.

It's simply an expansion of the notion "what if we're living in a simulated world?" to "what if we're living in a completely imaginary world?" The first question still assumes that there was once some other, real reality that the machines are trying to simulate. What if they aren't copying anything, and are instead making it up as they go along?

Destructive, evil, vile behaviour, focused on an enemy, is a a pretty good evolutionary strategy, right up until you run out of enemies.

Intersting. (none / 0) (#325)
by marktaw on Wed May 21, 2003 at 04:36:29 AM EST

Though I'm going to take the comment Agent Smith makes in the first movie that the current Matrix is modelled on "the peak of your civilization," at face value. That said, I'm sure the Wachowski brothers are very much aware that they're creating a universe that can be explored in a large number of ways... And if a medieval Matrix can be one of them, I'm sure a medieval Matrix will be explored.

I read an interesting article that said it was the 6th Matrix because Neo represents Jesus and the other 5 Matrixes were the five books of Moses.

It's here: http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

My revised article is here: http://www.marktaw.com/reviews/TheMatrixReloadedv2.html

[ Parent ]

I think that only the architect and the oracle (none / 0) (#341)
by ZanThrax on Wed May 21, 2003 at 11:06:55 PM EST

are intentionally duplicitous; Smith and the other agents believe what they are written to believe.

I'm not imagining just that previous iterations are medieval, ancient, or pre-historical, but that they were fundamentaly different realities with different laws governing them. Other iterations don't even have to have us as human if we assume (and I am) that Zion is as much a part of the Matrix as the rest.

There is no spoon, there never was a spoon, and there never will be a spoon.
[ Parent ]

I disagree (none / 0) (#347)
by marktaw on Thu May 22, 2003 at 03:42:05 AM EST

The Oracle & The Architect can be duplicitous, and the Agents are pretty much what they're programmed to be... Except for Smith.

The thing about The Oracle is that while she may have streatched the truth, she never quite lied. She told Neo he wasn't the one. "I don't know what you're waiting for, maybe your next lifetime, who knows." It took until he died and came back for him to become the one.

I don't believe that Zion is part of The Matrix, so I don't believe that other iterations of The Matrix had fundamentally different laws. I have my own reasons for this.

[ Parent ]

No. (none / 0) (#356)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Thu May 22, 2003 at 10:34:30 PM EST

She told Neo he wasn't the one. "I don't know what you're waiting for, maybe your next lifetime, who knows." It took until he died and came back for him to become the one.
No, it took a hot babe implying that she would get busy with him.



[ Parent ]

Trinity is hot, but... (none / 0) (#357)
by marktaw on Thu May 22, 2003 at 11:28:49 PM EST

No, it took a hot babe implying that she would get busy with him.
She's no Monica Belucci.

[ Parent ]
But Neo is the _first_ Neo (none / 0) (#337)
by mmsmatt on Wed May 21, 2003 at 08:17:33 PM EST

The Architect specifically says Neo is different from the previous Ones. If his dream of Trinity falling was to happen, and this sixth One was industrious enough to stop it... well we've just opened Pandora's box on Mr. Colonel Sanders.

Anyways, I posted this question earlier: To what Diety does the Zion gathering pray?

[ Parent ]

Not that anyone will care (4.00 / 1) (#322)
by fishicken on Wed May 21, 2003 at 03:05:46 AM EST

I saw it twice. The first time I was unmoved, the second - I don't know what happened. The acting was much better. The dialogue snappy. The Brothers probably used E.B. White's Companion to Style when writing the dialogue. (BREVITY!!! BREVITY!!! BREVITY!!!) Screenplays aren't essays. That's my two cents worth.

I'll grant that a Keanu ball gag (think Pulp Fiction) would be a boon to us all. "I love you too damn much" becomes "Mmm mmm mmm mmm mmm mmmpf". Much better. And you know what happens next.

The film is pitched at people who play SSX Snowboarding and masturbate. You can't expect it to be the best sex you've ever had.

I hope that the reason it seemed crap is that they always intended the last two to be ONE LONG FILM and they didn't bother to make each stand alone. Where was the marketing blitz, anyway? Surely they could have brainwashed us into climaxing at the very thought if they'd started early.

Oh, and that totally lame kid was from The Animatrix. There are loads of Animatrix references in Reloaded - kinda cool.

What you do not want to do, is... (none / 0) (#365)
by rapha on Fri May 23, 2003 at 08:05:22 AM EST

What you do not want to do, is that you do not masterbate. Try, I won't buy it.


---
NIETS IS ONMOGELIJK!

[ Parent ]
Excellent review! (4.33 / 3) (#323)
by meman2000 on Wed May 21, 2003 at 03:14:37 AM EST

The plot was as thin as the dialog. This might be a spoiler: the dramatic climax of the movie consists of Neo having a conversation with Colonel Sanders, in which the Secret of the Eleven Herbs and Spices is finally revealed. Then Jason Alexander appears with a bucket of Spicy Nuggets. No, wait...Neo has to make a choice. Two doors. Behind one, a lady. Behind the other, a tiger. No, wait...

Just wanted to post a note of admiration for the reference to The Lady or the Tiger? story... if anyone hasn't read it, it's a classic.

anim-animatrix (none / 0) (#329)
by davros4269 on Wed May 21, 2003 at 02:02:21 PM EST

Hey, I liked the movie... I watched it, then i watched the animatrix, then I watched it again. It was a matrix couple of days! The annoying kid that that adores Neo? Not quite as annoying when you watch the 1 of the 10 minute cartoons in the animatrix devoted to his backstory. Here's what's bad about the flick - btw, I chuckled reading the review - you are a great writer, and even though I disagree, I liked reading your review. I thought the movie needed LESS fight sennes, rather, less fight-dances. Remember the agents in the first matrix? They were bad-asses. Neo in this film at one point calls them "upgrades", yet, Morpheus and other humans beat the shit out of them much longer than in the first matrix. In the first flick, an agent meant, "oh shit, lets book!" In this flick, it means, "alright, lets dance!" Trinity and morpheus seemed less human also - trinity with her sun glasses on has the persona of T1, and morpheus comes off as some kind of self-righteous religious leader... The "deepness" of the philosophy aside, I liked the plot twists. i like the "control within control" ala Dune aspect of it. I like the fact that the sweet, most human-acting character of all, comes into question. That rocked. As for Smith, I could take or leave him. He was a better bad guy in the first flick. i don't understand his motivation in this - revenge? For what, exactly? No longer loyal to the "system", and further, hinting that he knows a little something about the whole "thing", "the same as before...but different", why not just leave neo alone?
Will you squirm when you are pecked? Quack.
Vendetta (none / 0) (#336)
by mmsmatt on Wed May 21, 2003 at 08:08:34 PM EST

Heck, why not? If Neo jumped into me and broke me into a million digital puzzle peices I'd be ticked. Screw the war, the control, everything, I'm going after this guy.

And if I can implant myself into one of his comrades, so much the better. That Real World (Brave New World?) out there is worth exploring...

[ Parent ]

Agent Smith As A Subset of The Matrix (none / 0) (#340)
by marktaw on Wed May 21, 2003 at 10:02:35 PM EST

In the first movie, The Matrix was the enemy, but you needed someone to fight the characters, so you have The Agent.

In this movie, The Matrix is still the enemy, but it's priorities have changed, so they need someone whose priorities have changed to represent it. Agent Smith is no longer fighting for the keys to Zion, he's now fighting for his own survival.

[ Parent ]

The characters became more real (none / 0) (#382)
by TheModerate on Sun May 25, 2003 at 02:20:22 AM EST

"Trinity and morpheus seemed less human also - trinity with her sun glasses on has the persona of T1, and morpheus comes off as some kind of self-righteous religious leader..."

Actually, I saw this as a good sign. It doesn't make them less human; it makes them more human. You have to remember, they are all the protagonists of this film. And in the first Matrix, they were all seemingly undefeatable. Now we get to see Morpheus's flaw---his undieing faith. And perhaps you are hinting at Trinity's flaw. But these failings in character are human.

"What a man has in himself is, then, the chief element in his happiness." -- Schopenhauer
[ Parent ]

Given the context in which it's happening (none / 0) (#383)
by marktaw on Sun May 25, 2003 at 07:43:49 AM EST

Given the context in which it's happening, Morpheus' undying faith could've been programmed into him. An in ability to adapt is an almost machine like flaw. "I don't believe it" can be equated with "That does not compute."

[ Parent ]
Smith: (none / 0) (#417)
by Obi Perrin on Sun Jun 08, 2003 at 05:21:08 AM EST

Listen to what he says when he meets Neo again for the first time - just after Neo has met with the Oracle. He still doesn't quite understand why he's still alive, but he knows he wants to stay that way - he felt compelled to dis-obey. He also says a lot about "Purpose". In the first movie, his purpose was to protect the integrity of the Matrix, destroy it's intruders and stop Neo. But he describes his death as an attempt from Neo to rob him of that purpose. He's not a man, but a computer program, albeit a rather intelligent one. To the programs of the Matrix, purpose is the single-most important survival instinct. Remember the oracle talking of ghost programs? All programs who had lost their purpose, either by fault of their own, or simply becomming out-dated. Smith is just like them. Having lost his connection to the Matrix, he has become the virus he hated so much. The only thing left to him now is his purpose - to destroy Neo and survive. This isn't what interests me about him though. Smith's a pretty weird guy in this film. What's the deal with lurking in corridors behind Neo's back? Obvious answer? To kill him...but that's too obvious. If he just wanted to kill, why did he slice his hand twice? Also, if he was so eager to KILL Neo, why didn't he immediately take that opportunity upon their pre-fight-scene meeting? I'm not saying he didn't try and take it, but it was his second choice. His first was to _control_ Neo by copying himself. For some reason, I think unbeknownest to both Smith and Neo, this attempt failed. Neo didn't have a clue what was going on or how to stop it. If he knew, then why let it reach all the way up to his face and run all that risk? Neo got lucky. What if Smith, the now fully human incarnation through the bearded guy, is just like his cyberspace counterpart? Smith in the computer is a virus, and goodness knows virii aren't restricted to only computers. Blood is, in my laymans opinion anyway, a perfect way to transmit a virus. Slicing his hand with the knife doesn't seem so strange with this slant. Maybe he only wanted to spread himself? But this doesn't explain why the copy procedute failed. My guess? It didn't fail. It just had nothing to copy. Just as part of Neo was copied to Smith when he was "destroyed", a part of Smith was copied to Neo. Perhaps this is some of what gives him the affinity for stopping those sentinals in real life? *shrug*. Just a guess though.

[ Parent ]
I'm Glad Someone Caught This (none / 0) (#419)
by marktaw on Sun Jun 08, 2003 at 09:45:29 PM EST

Computer programs are created for a reason. People are not. Agent Smith's goal in the first movie wasn't to stop Neo, it was to destroy Zion. Neo is a means to an end. Since Smith was waiting for him in the "backdoor" hallway, it says to me that he understands something about the nature of the Matrix and Neo's desire to get to the Source.

[ Parent ]
that was a lot to take in at one time (2.00 / 2) (#342)
by Prophet themusicgod1 on Thu May 22, 2003 at 12:41:18 AM EST

firstly id like to say dont read my comment if you havnt seen it. hell get out there and see it NOW.
i cant decide whether its the biggest advertisement ive ever been exposed to, the most complex and divinely beautiful work of art yet created by man, a method of control(by the way, this effectively kills most of the hope i had left in the kult, rantradio all sides of the political shpere...)...or a combination of the three
...and by the way, the dance was one of the most important parts. its the *system* and this movie should make little sense until this is clear...
parricide, stoicism or otherwise?
sure it was a little more sophisticated...and not as good as the original(the sound track, especially)...but take me-im a computerscience major philosophy minor...more or less because of the first matrix. now i lie in self contradiction... it is that massive effect that makes this film, and the first together, as a unit, great. and i wouldnt judge this one until 3 comes out. then well see.
whats scary is even the commercials they had were appealing, except the ones that was definitely for the trendy-goth ...that depresses me to no end.
"its the network, stupid"-roto

"I suspect the best way to deal with procrastination is to put off the procrastination itself until later. I've been meaning to try this, but haven't gotten around to it yet."swr
meta:and i thought this was the good comment?![nt] (none / 0) (#369)
by Prophet themusicgod1 on Fri May 23, 2003 at 05:48:15 PM EST


"I suspect the best way to deal with procrastination is to put off the procrastination itself until later. I've been meaning to try this, but haven't gotten around to it yet."swr
[ Parent ]
Look At It This Way (none / 0) (#373)
by marktaw on Sat May 24, 2003 at 03:23:58 AM EST

Would the original movie be any good if it ended the moment Neo took the cookie and walked out of the Oracle's home?

[ Parent ]
New York City - June 7 - IMAX Reloaded - Lets Meet (none / 0) (#350)
by marktaw on Thu May 22, 2003 at 04:26:07 PM EST

The Matrix reloaded is supposed to come out in IMAX format in June. I say we get together June 7th, see the show, and discuss how much more it sucks in IMAX over dinner.

http://www.marktaw.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=24&t=24

Hopefully we won't overload the theater capacity.

I wonder if IMAX is the Wachowski Brothers way of competing with the digital Star Wars releases (which I saw and thought looked horrible).

It's On! - NYC June 7, 7:15 pm (none / 0) (#414)
by marktaw on Sat May 31, 2003 at 04:47:05 PM EST

http://www.fandango.com/my_box_office.asp?page=&remotefilter=&theaternam efilter=&distance=30&from=&refresh_date=6/7/2003

Dinner will be at the houlihans two blocks south of of the theater.

[ Parent ]

Obviously I Am Missing Something (none / 0) (#366)
by t reductase on Fri May 23, 2003 at 10:56:15 AM EST

I thought the first film was mediocre and the second one all right. In the first film Neo kills a lot of people in the Matrix. These people are really 'brains in vats'. However, these 'constructs' think they have lives, sort of like people generally think they have lives. How was killing these constructs different than murder? I am talking about the bank guards etc rather than 'Smith' etc. Secondly, Neo awoke to a nightmare. How was life in that ship any better than being a brain in a vat but having the everday world 'even though really just as computer constructs'? The 'fight the system' message was juvenile. Are terrorist cells the answer to the world's problems? Morpheus essentially lead a terrorist cell. The second one I thought was just some good fight scenes with a 'Some accomodation to technology is necessary. Technology can be both a blessing and a curse. It can produce people like the Meroviginian or like the Oracle'. Yes, this is a rather straightforward and simple message but it was an improvement on the juvenile message of the first movie. Obviously with the Smiths dominating the Matrix, Zion destroyed and the Earth a wasteland those brains in vats need better lives. Some enhancement and taming of the Matrix is called for. I hope this is where the third one is going.

Yes You Are (2.00 / 1) (#367)
by marktaw on Fri May 23, 2003 at 03:43:10 PM EST

You raise some good points. Here's The Matrix as I saw it.

The message was Don't blindly accept everything you're told as the truth.

Life on a ship is better than life in a vat because in a vat someone can unplug you at any time. You're a slave, even if it's in an elaborate prison designed to put you at ease and make you forget that you're a slave. On the ship his life had purpose, and he couldn't be unplugged at any moment.

The Wachowski brothers made the parallel to working for a large corporation. His boss was threatening to fire him. "You can either choose to come in on time every morning, or you can choose to find yourself another job." He chose to find another job... and another life.

Now, perhaps you like corporate life, a world where anyone can fire you at any time for any reason, but having worked for one of the largest corporations in the world, I can tell you it's not so pleasant when people you work with start dropping like flies for no apparent reason, and nobody is willing to tell you why.

Now, you invoked the "terrorst" monicker, which means I can talk about September 11 and the current administration.

After the September 11 attacks, there were scenes of children holding up signs for the cameras that said "Wake up America, Why do you think the world hates you?"

But you're not interested in that message. You're never going to question the US's motives becuase, as we've already established, you don't question the validity of anything you're told, at least when it's an authority figure telling it to you. You'd rather stay asleep and live in a dream world, both literally and figuratively.

Oddly, at the end of your thread, you say that they need to tame The Matrix. How do you expect them to do that in a world where anyone who questions can simply be unplugged and flushed into the sewers?

[ Parent ]

How Might the Matrix Be Tamed? (none / 0) (#371)
by t reductase on Fri May 23, 2003 at 09:16:20 PM EST

The story can be altered. Neo with his demi-godlike powers defeats the Smiths and consults the Oracle a program on how to give the brains in vats some limited programming abilities, the ability to question reality and to shape reality at least to a certain extent. There are endless ways the Matrix can be tamed.

[ Parent ]
Not a good comprimise (none / 0) (#372)
by marktaw on Sat May 24, 2003 at 03:22:33 AM EST

First of all, any comprimise with a machine is silly. Sure you pray to your car to start in the morning ("I promise I'll give you an oil change and a paint job if you'll only start this once"), but that doesn't change it's behaviour.

Second, there is no way they're gonna let people in on the fact that they're in a simulation - once they realize, they get dumped and have to go to that shithole Zion. (Well, shithole from a machine's point of voiw... Massive Night Club Orgy from a human's point of view).

Taming the Matrix in the way you propose is kinda like Romeo brokering a peace with the Capulets. Drama exists becuase there are two opposing sides that cannot reach an agreement.

[ Parent ]

Minor thing (none / 0) (#384)
by dumaspere on Sun May 25, 2003 at 08:05:38 AM EST

Reading your post reminded me of some of the people in the original passage in Plato's Republic, the Allegory of the Cave, that the Matrix was based on. http//www.historyguide.org/intellect/allegory.html for the text of the Cave. If youre already aware of all of this then sorry, but I think you would find it very interesting.
http://www.thehungersite.com/
[ Parent ]
What Does The Oracle Know? (4.00 / 2) (#375)
by marktaw on Sat May 24, 2003 at 04:38:14 AM EST

What does the Oracle know that The Matrix doesn't know?

First of all, let's look at the fact that she keeps potentials in her apartment. Is she babysitting, or is she keeping them prisoner? How many potentials are there anyway? Six. The same as the previous number of Matrixes.

Second, the Matrix knows Cipher is going to betray Morpheus, so when she says that Morpheus' life is going to come into danger, it's not so much a prediction as common knowledge.

Third, she tells Neo he isn't The One. "I don't know what you're waiting for, your next life maybe, who knows." It's reasonable to predict that Neo is going to die at the hands of an Agent. Especially if the Agents know all of the entrance/exit points by now - thanks to Cipher, he gave them that one at the beginning of the movie.

And if Neo doesn't die and never realizes his potential... Then it's no big loss to her, she's still right.

Now, in Reloaded what does the Oracle tell Neo? I don't clearly remember other than to find the Keymaker and seek the Source. She tells him she's a program and that he can't know whether or not to trust her. She then gives him a piece of candy. Does she really predict anything?

The guy that neo fights to get to the Oracle is named Seraph. Seraph means Angel. What would an Angel be protecting?

Listen Well, Reviewer (2.00 / 3) (#376)
by exa on Sat May 24, 2003 at 06:40:38 AM EST

To review science fiction you have to know science fiction. And in order to understand cyberpunk you have to have read some. Maybe you read, but it seems to me you didn't "get" it.

This movie is probably the first truly cyberpunk movie. But you suckadelic reviewer watched it like a karate movie or a space opera.

If we were to say either Matrix or Matrix Reloaded sucked I would choose the first one. In Matrix Reloaded they didn't only save the plot but actually achieved in making a decent science fiction movie. Congrats to those wacky bros.

The first one was actually a visual work-alike of a typical manga but lacked the depth that would persuade science fiction fans. The second is quite advanced in visual and fights also, but it didn't rely on them. That is a great improvement. I think the fights weren't that essential to this movie.

There are a few things I didn't like of course

1) Cheesy sound-tracks: some of them didn't sound hi-tech or mystical at all
2) Dance/fuck scene. Yeah! Welcome to Club Zion! That sucked big time. Though I could use more of Trinity's ass in the soft porn scene. But I also think the directors wanted to show that the humans in Zion did differ from their images in Matrix.
3) The Architect dialogue was too long and contradictory.

But there were a lot of good things. In the oracle and architect dialogues there were references to the system being Turing-complete and therefore not wholly predictable. The philosophical significance of "choice". A 19th century level exposition of philosophy of free will. That one needs elaborate schemes to control emotional response. among other things.

However, as I said one shouldn't expect too much from the dialogues like "finding out the truth". The Oracle has a very obvious Zen monk attitude that turns every dialogue with her into a koan. Nice mysticism.

The Architect is from the analytical tradition but he didn't sound too consistent either. The way more questions are posed than answered are good however. I did wonder what's coming in revolutions.

Cheers,

__
Eray Ozkural
__
exa a.k.a Eray Ozkural
There is no perfect circle.

No. (3.00 / 3) (#396)
by ktakki on Mon May 26, 2003 at 10:43:22 PM EST

Can't say that I've read much cyberpunk; just the complete works of William Gibson, Bruce Sterling, Vernor Vinge, Rudy Rucker, and Neal Stephenson (except for Zodiac, which is on my stack of books to read this summer). Also, I tend to avoid manga and anime, although I suppose when the panty vending machines start showing up on the streets of New York I'll probably have to delve into these genres, just to stay on top of my own culture.

But I do take issue with your assertion that The Matrix is the first cyberpunk movie. I believe that this honor belongs to Blade Runner (1984).


k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

[ Parent ]

Thank You! (3.00 / 1) (#397)
by marktaw on Mon May 26, 2003 at 11:25:37 PM EST

Though technically Blade Runner didn't have scenes of people plugging in to computers.

Johnny Mnemonic starring one Neo actor and based on a story by a certain Cyberpunk author... Hackers is also close. What about like... Westworld, that's kinda close.

[ Parent ]

DADOES (5.00 / 2) (#401)
by epepke on Tue May 27, 2003 at 04:00:57 PM EST

Oddly enough, the original Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep did have people plugging into computers, though they were called "empathy boxes," to participate in a very cyberspace-like communal experience. This was heavily connected to the central premise of DADOES. The andys couldn't use the empathy boxes, and, without giving too much away, the fact that the trappings of the experience with the empathy box weren't real didn't affect the reality of the experience with empathy, which also ties in with the electric sheep bit--even if the sheep is artificial, the empathy that the human feels for it is real.

Of course, it probably wouldn't have counted as truly cyberpunk either, because the sociopaths weren't the heroes. Somebody needs to do a movie of A Maze of Death.


The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.--Terry Pratchett


[ Parent ]
Haha Bladerunner a *cyberpunk* movie? (none / 0) (#400)
by exa on Tue May 27, 2003 at 03:37:33 PM EST

I think I was right in saying that you probably didn't "get" cyberpunk. Cyberpunk is about cyberspace, or in a more general sense computers are important. In BladeRunner we have clones. There isn't a single AI. In fact, there isn't any significant "cyber" edge to anything. It does have "hi-tech lo-life", but that doesn't make it cyberpunk.

I didn't say The Matrix was a cyberpunk movie, I said The Matrix Reloaded was the first truly cyberpunk movie. Actually it's a lot more cyberpunk than the first one. That's why.

The first one, although a nice story in many respects, didn't have the depth of the second movie but of course it's still quite original. And it was the first time a Gibsonian description was visually demonstrated....

But this one, it has really become science-fiction. Reviewers will probably need another year or two to digest that.

Cheers,

__
exa a.k.a Eray Ozkural
There is no perfect circle.

[ Parent ]

Sorry, but no. (4.50 / 2) (#402)
by ktakki on Tue May 27, 2003 at 04:09:37 PM EST

You have an extremely narrow view of what constitutes "cyberpunk" literature/cinema. Your beloved "cyberspace" is merely one aspect of this genre; it is not necessary for a cp novel to involve characters "jacking into the Matrix". Case in point: The Difference Engine, an example of a cp sub-genre dubbed "steampunk". Not much of a chance of "jacking in" to an overgrown Jacquard loom, now is there?

I prefer the broader description of cp: a work which depicts a dystopian future (or past or present for that matter) with an emphasis on technology and its social impact. Based on this definition, I would agree with Marktaw that Westworld could be considered a cp movie. In fact, I'd add Brazil, Soylent Green, Colossus: The Forbin Project, and even Tron, all movies that pre-date the term "cyberspace".


k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

[ Parent ]

skiffy, sf (3.50 / 2) (#404)
by marktaw on Tue May 27, 2003 at 05:20:11 PM EST

This reminds me of the difference between "SF" and "SciFi" (which is prounounced skiffy). SF examines the nature and effects of technology on people, and v.v. SciFi uses technology as a backdrop for a story that could be told without the technology.

Let's check Google Glossary for a definition of Cyberpunk:

http://labs.google.com/glossary?q=cyberpunk&btnG=Google+Glossary+Search

I somehow doubt that William Gibson or Bruce Sterling would be so kind as to provide their own definitions, even though they defined the genre. Interestingly, William Gibson wrote Neuromancer on a typewriter, and it was another decade or so before he got a computer.

[ Parent ]

Ah, yes, every sci-fi movie is cyberpunk (1.00 / 2) (#406)
by exa on Tue May 27, 2003 at 11:13:48 PM EST

Trying to defend your point, you make some really stupid claims in addition.

A LARGE portion of science fiction movies are about dystopian futures and impact of science/technology.

You've just made a whole lot of good science fiction movies and novels I know cyberpunk including Bladerunner which was a DAMN good movie, one of my favorite, but was NOT CYBERPUNK.

You have consequently just proven yourself to be a total idiot. And what could be expected from a moron who likes the word "suck" so much?

And stop rating me you braindead slug.

__
exa a.k.a Eray Ozkural
There is no perfect circle.

[ Parent ]

Well... (2.66 / 3) (#408)
by ktakki on Wed May 28, 2003 at 01:09:36 AM EST

I suppose this is what happens when one discusses literature with a CS major.

And stop rating me you braindead slug.
Make me. You posted the same damn thing twice, so I rated the duplicate as I saw fit. The 1 I gave the parent post was just to annoy you. Enjoy.


k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

[ Parent ]
A large portion of science fiction movies were... (2.00 / 2) (#409)
by marktaw on Wed May 28, 2003 at 07:05:39 AM EST

A large portion of science fiction movies were influenced by cyberpunk, and v.v. Here's a brief list of SF movies I compiled:

Star Wars, Star Trek, 2001, Alien, Predator, Terminator, Starship Troopers, The Fifth Element, X-Men, Blade Runner, Minority Report, Dr. Strangelove, Forbidden Planet, Clockwork Orange, The Day the Earth Stood Still, Total Recall.

TV shows: Red Dwarf, Dr. Who, Max Headroom, those Andromeda / Mutant X shows I never watch, Stargate SG1, etc.

Oddly enough, you could almost categorize them as pre cyberpunk and post cyberpunk. Ok Starship Troopers and The Fifth Element are completely non cyberpunk, but Terminator & Blade Runner...

Star Trek has a character that's got cybernetic implants and plugs into a computer every night, but I still wouldn't call it Cyberpunk. If that's your only defining criteria though, you might be forced to.

[ Parent ]

Haha Bladerunner a *cyberpunk* movie? (2.00 / 2) (#403)
by exa on Tue May 27, 2003 at 04:49:07 PM EST

I think I was right in saying that you probably didn't "get" cyberpunk. Cyberpunk is about cyberspace, or in a more general sense computers are important. In BladeRunner we have clones. There isn't a single AI. In fact, there isn't any significant "cyber" edge to anything. It does have "hi-tech lo-life", but that doesn't make it cyberpunk.

I didn't say The Matrix was a cyberpunk movie, I said The Matrix Reloaded was the first truly cyberpunk movie. Actually it's a lot more cyberpunk than the first one. That's why.

The first one, although a nice story in many respects, didn't have the depth of the second movie but of course it's still quite original. And it was the first time a Gibsonian description was visually demonstrated....

But this one, it has really become science-fiction. Reviewers will probably need another year or two to digest that.

Cheers,
__
exa a.k.a Eray Ozkural
There is no perfect circle.

[ Parent ]

The omniscient Morpheous isn't so Jedi afterall (none / 0) (#378)
by ryan kulla on Sat May 24, 2003 at 05:47:32 PM EST

I am glad someone is speaking the truth.

Watching movie critics like Ebert and Roeper giving the Matrix Reloaded two-thumbs up reminded me of when The Dixie Chicks spoke out against President Bush. It was as if the brainwashed-by-matrix-hype masses had a patriotic force that no one would dare resist.

Lol (none / 0) (#380)
by marktaw on Sun May 25, 2003 at 12:21:43 AM EST

We all know Morpheus is just a black Gandalf anyway. Laurence Fishburn himself said that he's just Obi-Wan, Darth Vader, and Yoda all rolled up into one.

[ Parent ]
Leaked (none / 0) (#399)
by marktaw on Tue May 27, 2003 at 02:23:51 PM EST

MP3's have been around for weeks. I downloaded them, but will wait till I get the finished product to listen to it. I don't want these rough mixes to influence what I think of the finished product, but do want to have them to compare.

Anybody noticing the irony of Agent Smith? (none / 0) (#407)
by muaddip on Tue May 27, 2003 at 11:55:57 PM EST

In the first movie, he was saying to Morpheus that human race is actually a virus. Now in this movie he has become a virus himself :) *** Luckily I have watched the 1. movie without knowing anything about it. So in the beginning of the movie I was thinking that the whole matrix would turn out to be a government plot and Morpheus and his gang would be bunch of hackers trying to crack into it. And then all the stuff about modern philosophy of mind and AI tech started pouring. And I was telling to myself "Sh*t no way they can talk about such techy + philosophical stuff in a main stream movie!!!" That being a great experience for me, I was expecting not much from the 2. movie. After all with what sort of element of surprise could they come after the 1. movie? Yet, again I have been surprised with the excessive tech and philosophy pouring. All of a sudden I was facing with questions like "How would you define choice in a fully deterministic materialistic world?" and basics of operating systems, society of AI's etc. During the fight with the Agent Smith, I have realized what the directors were doing: Using the action scenes like candies to attract the audience to their hard-core sci-fi flick. Yet while in the first movie there were many possible shallow interpretations of the script (a love movie, or a movie on faith etc.) in this one it wasn't the case. So if you couldn't follow what was going on, you could only say "No script but just bunch of action scenes!". Sure not fair for those with lesser knowledge, and understanding, but heck, we deserved to see such a great movie, considering all this mindless sh*t shown in screens :) *** And here are some stuff which I don't like: 1- The only cheesy part in the matrix series is the machines using humans as energy source. So, whenever that part comes I replace that part in my mind with "machines using certain neuro-nets of humans to do a certain type of a computation which crucial for their operation and not possible to simulate in their silicone based architecture." 2- Visual effects in agent smith vs. Neo was bad. 3- I couldn't figure out neither the interaction between Agent Smith and the Guy with the knife nor the interaction between Neo and Sentinels. While these both can be explained with a second layer of reality (e.g. Zion being simulated in Matrix layer II). I prefer to explain them as A) Agent Smith psychologically-cracking into the guy B) I don't know. Yet it is still OK, since these will be revealed in the 3. movie. *** Sure there is a similarity between the first 3 movies of Starwars and Matrix. They both are planned as 3 movies :P. Seriously matrix is the Starwars of our generation. It has in general the same plot structure: 1. movie: A hero emerges 2. movie: Darker movie, with hope falling down, 3. movie: ??? But this can apply to many plots written in 3 parts including the bible 1. Jesus emerges 2. he gets crucified 3. he comes back :) So not a big issue... While in both Starwars and matrix there are dance scenes, you can not compare the dance of happy teddy bears to the sexy rave dance of the people of Zion. Some might say that the scene was not necessary but they should admit that the scene was explaining perfectly why people treasure Zion. In addition it is a good answer to the question: "So why to choose one system over another? Why not live in matrix?", the answer being: "cause in reality you have Zion, were the party is" as one Link told." Seriously it was explaining well what potentials the reality might have over the green colored matrix.

The Video Game Sucks Too (none / 0) (#412)
by marktaw on Thu May 29, 2003 at 07:18:48 PM EST

I just started playing it. It's Max Payne with Kung Fu. Just as brain-dead plotwise as the movie, and so far no philsophical mindfucks.

My big complaint about Max Payne was that you mostly wandered around fighting things without any real clear direction, though Max seemed to know where he was going. Well, that's what the video game is like. It's no Metal Gear, that's for sure.

I nearly prefer the first one..... (none / 0) (#413)
by Niha on Sat May 31, 2003 at 02:01:56 PM EST

 But I don´t think this one is so bad, just different.
 

Very concise and entertaining article. (none / 0) (#415)
by kosmos on Mon Jun 02, 2003 at 12:44:38 AM EST

I was too dissapointed, no, I was pissed off by the lack of depth in this movie. Especially, the superficial techno dancing scenes and the fighting scenes. I waited 4 years for this heap of dog crap? I had to watch the original to make sure that I still liked Matrix.

I did too. (none / 0) (#418)
by ryan kulla on Sun Jun 08, 2003 at 06:58:17 PM EST

But I can't wait for the 3rd installment of The Matrix, where the Smiths will try to use Kryptonite against Neo after he rips open his coat and reveals a blue spandex shirt with a big red 'N' on it. All while they sing "How Soon is Now?" o/` I am human and I need to be loved. Just like everybody else does. o/`

[ Parent ]
Agreed. It sucks (none / 0) (#420)
by Drift Reality on Wed Jun 18, 2003 at 09:46:51 AM EST

Zero character development, a ridiculously complex and stupid plot that made The Phantom Menace's plot look clever, completely erroneous dramatic sequences, token black-guy quotes (which annoy me), the only asians in the movie were a kung-fu artist and some old guy who made keys, some of the special effects were spectacular but some made me think I had just paid 8 bucks to watch a video game, and there was some very lame screenwriting which made me think that the Wachovia brothers (or whatever their names are) have been watching too many Bush speeches on television. The worst part about it was that the shit ended with a "To Be Continued." After all that god damn patience and effort I didn't even get to see a satisfying conclusion. My conclusion - wait until it comes out on video or DVD. Then wait some more. Then wait for Matrix 3 to come out on DVD. Then fast forward through the entire thing at 30X speed, only stopping to watch the fight scenes and occasional nipple shots of girls dancing and be over and done with it.

5 foot high nipples (none / 0) (#421)
by marktaw on Wed Jun 25, 2003 at 08:31:16 PM EST

There is something to be said about breasts that are bigger than I am on a screen bigger than a house (IMAX). Seriously though, I go see the big flashy movies in the theater beacause everything is bigger and flashier there.

[ Parent ]
Matrix Reloaded Reviewed | 421 comments (356 topical, 65 editorial, 2 hidden)
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