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[P]
Exercise in social change (applying game theory to have more fun)

By xutopia in Culture
Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 11:38:53 PM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)
Culture

After looking for a decent technical support forum I one day stumbled upon a site called Tek-Tips. The web site which I highly recommend for IT professionals is a place where anyone can go with a technical questions and receive answers from talented volunteers worldwide. The site is divided in forum for different programming languages and computer programs and uses a positive feedback channel called the star system. To give a star all you had to do is press a button and it showed to that person that their answer or post was helpful to you.

The stars each individual receives is added up and counted by the site owners to create the list of each forum's top experts. Being in a forum top expert list is a much coveted distinction and silent competition happens to reach top spot. My brother and I decided to analyze the dynamics of this web site and see how we could beat a system in the fastest time possible. This story explains our attempts to reach top spot in our favorite forums.


I knew I was capable of answering questions in the Javascript(JS) forum without any problems. My brother is a Sun Certified Java programmer and I consider him one of the more intelligent people I ever met. To make things really fun we decided to share ideas and make this some informal contest to see who could be in top spot the fastest. We shared techniques that proved to be the most effective and left everyone on that site in the dark about our little game.

The techniques we used were quite interesting. We used common game theory.

Game theory(GT) is seen in every day life. People all over the world use it to better understand complex systems. It can even be applied to better understand terrorist groups and other things like the dot-com bubble burst. We decided to apply our limited GT knowledge to give us an edge against other people wishing for top expert spots.

Analysis

Human nature shows that in a competitive enviroment people tend to give very little. We are wired in a sense to be cautious about free-loaders. We don't want to be taken advantage of. Because this is prevalent in a competitive system we tend to have very little giving going on.

This was the status-quo in our forums. Never did we see someone give magnanimously in our analysis phase. There were very few stars and they seemed to be far apart. We did however notice positive response between "players". If A gave a star to B for something simple, B had way more chances of doing the same to A on a different occasion. Mimicking is a tool we use to minimize our loss in tit-for-tat system but because it's a useful tool we use it often and everywhere. Often we are not aware that we are doing it.

Mimicking is horrible for the community when the prevailing theme is greediness. On the flip side, if a positive driving factor installs itself rapidly in a greedy-mimic system, the dynamics can change and the enviroment be much more interesting very fast.

Our idea was to take advantage of the mimic reflex to the best of our ability. But to do this we had to change the prevailing culture by encouraging cooperation between individuals.

Our strategy

  • Give lots of stars to people (especially under you)
  • When someone gave a decent answer but you could give a better one, give him a star for his effort but show what you would have done instead so he may feel inclined to give you a star too
  • Encourage diplomacy with stars
  • Encourage quality (of code or research) with a star
  • Encourage public displays of friendship with positive comments
  • If someone above you seems careless about his position, give him stars too
  • Making ourselves visible in our altruism (letting people know you gave them a star and for what).

If you gave stars to people that were say 10th and 20th while you were in 5th place, one of them may give you a star in return helping your chances to move one spot to 4th. As you move up the expert list the amount of stars seperating each spot diminishes (moving from 25th to 24th might require 7 stars but there is only 2 stars between second and third place).

By giving a star to someone behind you it helps them move one spot closer to the top spot but that doesn't hurt your chances because if you move up too, they don't get closer to you.

The side effect we soon noticed was that some people had subtle ways of saying that if we gave them a star they would give us one in return ad eternam. This system was especially interesting when someone needed lots of star to move up the ranks. Say that individual was in 30th place and us in 4th. If I gave this individual 5 stars and he gave me 5 stars in return I could move up a few spots and so could he. The benefit here was mutual. Sneaky isn't it?

Within a week we had created a culture of star-giving-for-anything-positive. Of course our plan was to ride this culture wave we had created! And without scruple we did! :-)

Within about a month and only a few days apart, we became top experts in our respective forums. Our little experiment proved to be a success!

For the fun of it I also participated in other forums with similar strategies (HTML, CSS, PHP) but my results were not as high as my knowledge was surpassed by others. Because of my participation in all those forums and the strategy I became the site-wide expert of the week (more stars were given to me than any other members the week prior).

Our strategy proved to be very successful but also very much fun. The whole star-give strategy created interesting dynamics. People were more fun and happier. We even had comments about how great the site had become.

Once our experiment over we decided to stop playing our devious game and analyze the reverse effect of our devious game. Once in a while we would come back to the site checking on the situation and analyze the new dynamics. Our position as forum top expert soon dropped to oblivion and we were replaced as expected by other very talented individuals. To our surprise though, the dynamics changed completely much faster than anticipated.

To our great dismay the culture of star giving gradually disapeared within three weeks of our departure. We were a driving force behind something really fun. The human nature which sometimes plagues us in society was rotting an enviroment that used to be really fun.

When we were there people were helpful, friendly and diplomatic, now they're more or less playing testosterone spraying contests and being very conservative in their star giving. In no way does this make it a bad technical forum, I'd say it's the best there is. But that special spark was just not there anymore.

If stars were a scoring system that could define how successful the members of the site were, the better scores would have been during our presence there. This experience has been so interesting for me that I've decided to join other sites and see what kind of dynamics existed.

Yes, I'm looking for a new game to play and I plan to play it here on this very site. This time I'd like others to know about it though. I think experiences with game theory in an online setting can really benefit people.

The masterplan

Here at K5 there isn't a star system but positive feedback channels exist that could be used for a game of our own. I'm sure the intent of the creators here was to encourage us to positive forms of feedback. I can see an interesting game here.

I'm thinking a stategy could be devised to make this site more intellectual and make people more diplomatic. I also think we need more people to constructively and diplomatically criticize trolls so they change for the better. Calling someone a troll doesn't make them better, telling them how they can improve does.

Does anyone have insights one what a sound strategy would be?

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Poll
I think applying game theory to K5 is :
o devious but fun 36%
o unethical. 19%
o important for the betterment of the site. 14%
o wonderful and i do it all the time. 6%
o stupid. Game theory is nonsense. 23%

Votes: 47
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o web site
o game theory
o terrorist groups
o Also by xutopia


Display: Sort:
Exercise in social change (applying game theory to have more fun) | 304 comments (273 topical, 31 editorial, 0 hidden)
We won't play this game (2.50 / 16) (#1)
by United Fools on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 03:05:10 AM EST

We protest the elitist tone of this article.
We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
I didn't see that one coming! LOL (2.50 / 5) (#2)
by xutopia on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 03:30:34 AM EST

But I'm certainly having a ball reading the site on your link.

I assure you my article in no ways was written to create an elitist "intellocracy" on this site. What I'd want though is to put people's intellectualism to work for our communal benefit. Making this place more fun for you and me is really my desire. I'm simply pushing the ideas I think will help.

I'm sure you have ideas on how to make this place more fun. I'd love to hear them. I'd love to see what constructive stuff we can work out.

[ Parent ]

My idea (1.25 / 5) (#19)
by Stick on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:14:59 AM EST

Is to make me the new rusty. I will make a decree stating that everyone must talk about their bowel movements. What could be more fun?


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
[ Parent ]
hmmm... (3.16 / 6) (#28)
by xutopia on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 11:45:00 AM EST

Honeslty I don't know!

[ Parent ]
I wasn't sure before I read this post (1.00 / 4) (#37)
by itsbruce on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 12:42:45 PM EST

But you really are, imo, abusing the words "intellectual" and "intellectualism". Your usage may be within the dictionary definition but it grates, being both inapt and inelegant. That last piece of phrasing is particularly unattractive. "to put people's intellectualism to work"? This is the graceless language of the self help manual.

Remove all instances of "intellectual" and your article will be a cheery piece of the kind to gladden the heart of anyone who ever bought the "Little Book Of Calm". You may have realised, by now, that I am not of that number.


--It is impolite to tell a man who is carrying you on his shoulders that his head smells.
[ Parent ]

On trolls and K5: (4.61 / 18) (#8)
by Koutetsu on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 04:19:03 AM EST

The problem is that trolls don't want to change.  They're not trolling because they're incapable of rational discourse--they're trolling because it's fun for them to get ruses out of people.  I guess. I mean - I never really understood their motives anyway.

This is an interesting article, but the dynamics that applied to your tech forum don't really apply here.  More than a few people don't take ratings seriously; K5's Scoope engine allows you to disable rating altogether; and most importantly, there's no Highest-Rated K5 User List.  This is hardly a competition, and no one's even going to win prestige by being a Trusted User.

The pervading air on K5 is less intellectual chat salon and more intellectual bukkake.  Less people are interested in creating a friendly environment than having a place to spout whatever's on their mind about x random controversial topic.  I won't even get started on the diary section, where ratings are almost meaningless and enlightening discourse is well near unheard of.

----
"For some reason people are oversensitive about a number living in a database attached to a comment." -

Trolls just wanna have fun (1.50 / 6) (#18)
by Stick on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:13:46 AM EST

You know the rest of song.


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
[ Parent ]
It's not the trolls! (4.30 / 10) (#24)
by thelizman on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 10:46:24 AM EST

It's US, the normal everyday users. We have the power to mod the trolls out of existence - more importantly, we can simple ignore them, and they will mostly starve out.
--

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
[ Parent ]
No we don't (4.00 / 7) (#59)
by Simon Kinahan on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 06:06:48 PM EST

It takes four-and-a-bit zeros to outweigh a five. The crapflooders seem to have enough time on their hands that nearly every post they make gets at least four or five fives. So you need around 20 zeros to hide their posts. Very few posts actually get that many zeros. Especially in the diary section, some diaries of value get totally overwhelmed with crap, and certain people who used to post interesting diaries are now gone because of this.

And when it comes down to it, only a few thousand trusted users can give zeros. Anyone can register a new account and give fives. And they do. This is having a steady attrition affect on the people here who used to be interesting. If you don't care, thats fine.  It isn't going to destroy my life either, but it is a shame.

Simon

If you disagree, post, don't moderate
[ Parent ]

Speaking as an occasional troll (2.50 / 3) (#72)
by Danzig on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:52:30 PM EST

let me tell you that there are probably more trusted users than you think. It is really not that hard to get and keep at all. Doing nothing to consciously move myself towards or away from TU status, I gained it shortly after my arrival, held it for nearly a month, lost it to drduck, then got it back again. If someone actually wants to get TU, I am sure they would be able to without much trouble.

You are not a fucking Fight Club quotation.
rmg for editor!
If you disagree, moderate, don't post.
Kill whitey.
[ Parent ]
Thats true (4.22 / 9) (#77)
by Simon Kinahan on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 08:18:40 PM EST

But just empirically, no post has been hidden for more than 10 days., The last one that was has 76 ratings, 12 of which are 5s. The rest are 1s or 0s. The post concerned undeniably deserves to be hidden, and yet it is just on the borderline. The 5s can only possibly be of malicious intent. There've been more than a few comments that deserved to be hidden since then, but the destructive assholes have rated than all back up.

It is trivial for a sufficiently determined person to unhide a comment by registering new accounts and rating it up. It is very hard to hide it again, since to do so requires TU status, and far from all TUs will see any given comment. The system si too far biased towards trust.

I should just say at this point that I have nothing against trolling as such - it serves a useful satirical purpose. What I do object to is desctructive assholes who like to think of themselves as trolls.

Simon

If you disagree, post, don't moderate
[ Parent ]

starving them out (4.50 / 3) (#89)
by Entendre Entendre on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 01:28:23 AM EST

more importantly, we can simple ignore them, and they will mostly starve out.

Yeah, just look how successful that strategy has been with email spammers.

What color is the sky in your world?

--
Reduce firearm violence: aim carefully.
[ Parent ]

as a troll, let me say that (4.50 / 5) (#68)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:34:46 PM EST

mad props for saying "intellectual bukkake"


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Kudos on the phrase: (none / 2) (#87)
by TaoJones on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 01:01:20 AM EST

The pervading air on K5 is less intellectual chat salon and more intellectual bukkake.
Nicely done, a sort of mutual mental masturbation. And, to paraphrase David Barry "by the way, Intellectual Bukkake" would be a great name for a band"...

PS: "Mutual Mental Masturbation" would also be a great name for a band, or at least the title of Intellectual Bukkake's first album...

--
"Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things.
George W. Bush, Jr

[ Parent ]

I don't -want- to be a troll (4.00 / 3) (#92)
by Theranthrope on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 01:38:27 AM EST

I'm not even sure that I am a troll because I've never been accused of being one. The reason I keep coming back is my and some other members' posts that are the equivalent of cracking-wise in the back of the classroom. What people sometimes called trolling are the things I like to do on k5.

It dosen't hurt anyone and it adds far more value to the discussion of X random topic than the small anoyance you and some others may feel.

The over-intellectualization of k5 is a type of mental masturbation that I despise.


"Turmeric applied as a suppository will increase intelligence." -- HidingMyName
[
Parent ]

It's called a Circle-jerk. (3.57 / 14) (#9)
by Soviet Russian on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 04:21:47 AM EST

And we invented it.

in soviet russia .. (2.85 / 7) (#10)
by davedean on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 04:24:54 AM EST

circle-jerk invents you!

just doing my bit :)

-Dave
--
Dave Dean
Google loves me again! New Formula!
[ Parent ]

Warm Fuzzies/Cold Pricklies/Troll Feces (4.50 / 16) (#12)
by Seth Finkelstein on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 04:31:13 AM EST

That's a pleasant story, and I'll vote it up. But stripped of the game-theory patina, the underlying lesson seems to be that "Two guys who invest a lot of time and energy in being friendly, supportive, and helpful to everyone, can make a forum a great place".

Or, positive energy feeds on itself. Unfortunately, negative energy also feeds on itself, as you note.

See the old parable of Warm Fuzzies and Cold Pricklies

Many, many, on-line communities have struggled with the idea of how to have people give everyone else "warm fuzzies" without "cold pricklies". Nobody has really solved it in a scalable manner.

I'll leave to your imagination the additional complicating aspect of "Troll Feces"

-- Seth Finkelstein

You know (2.93 / 16) (#14)
by Michael Moore on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 05:18:35 AM EST

Spreading parables that try to justify pedophilia and other types of sex without (considering the consequences of either) is not only morally bankrupt, but extremely dangerous in this day and age.

--
"My life was more improved by a single use of [ecstasy] than someone's life is made worse by becoming a heroin addict." -- aphrael
[ Parent ]
Er... (3.75 / 8) (#15)
by Michael Moore on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 05:19:52 AM EST

Move open-parenthesis left one word.

--
"My life was more improved by a single use of [ecstasy] than someone's life is made worse by becoming a heroin addict." -- aphrael
[ Parent ]
Please! Please! (3.00 / 5) (#22)
by QuickFox on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 10:02:34 AM EST

What is it with you USians? You're all obsessed with this subject! It's like, if a photo of a kid shows the merest speck of skin, all you USians go into a state of panic! Soon you'll have all your children wearing burkhas!

I tell you, you're so obsessed, you're an entire nation of people who at the merest hint will see sexuality in children. In children! They're kids for goodness' sake! You're all just like catholic priests.

What you USians don't realise is that children must be treated with respect and caring. With the proper respect and caring, a cuddly romp in the hay has never hurt anyone.

Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fi
[ Parent ]

Have a warm fuzzy |nt (5.00 / 4) (#49)
by CwazyWabbit on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 02:35:35 PM EST


--
"But here's the thing: if people hand me ammunition, what kind of misanthrope would I be if I didn't use it?" - Sarah-Katherine
[ Parent ]
Slashcode (5.00 / 2) (#101)
by cgp314 on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 04:31:24 AM EST

Nobody has really solved it in a scalable manner.

I think slashdot has done a pretty good job.
-- American Weblog in London
[ Parent ]
Too crude (2.50 / 3) (#104)
by meaningless pseudonym on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 05:51:44 AM EST

The rating system in Slash is waaay to crude - for a site of that size to stay as a useful discussion forum, you need an awful lot finer granulatiry flexibility in scoring.

TBH I'd much rather see Slash move to a Scoop-style rating system but with M2 left in place.


[ Parent ]

Not really (5.00 / 5) (#105)
by Filip on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 06:54:46 AM EST

To be honest, I think the signal to noise ratio is better at Slashdot than here (could I say anything less PC? ;). That is, when browsing at 2 on Slashdot.

Setting a threshold at 5hin tears the discussion apart completely, since it is so inconsistently rated. OTOH the story voting on 5hin is excellent IMO.

The only problem for me with /. is that I'm perpetually unmoderated (which probably means all I contribute is noise).

So, I read Slashdot for the links and discussions, and 5hin for the stories. (I only read the discussion now, to see what xutopia would do in it game theory-wise.)
-- I'm just a figment of your imagination.
[ Parent ]

Ooh, no! (5.00 / 3) (#124)
by meaningless pseudonym on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 01:23:18 PM EST

To me, the post volume on Slashdot is so high that you can spend a long time wading through jokes and bad puns to get to the actual interesting comments - because they're all rated 5, you can't differentiate between 5s and when the scores are levelit defaults to oldest first - which inevitably favours the quick poster, who is more likely to be a punner than a useful contributor.

Combine that with a limit of 100 comments/page and some can get unreadable.


[ Parent ]

Exactly (none / 1) (#172)
by Moebius on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 09:34:19 AM EST

I also got tired of reading 3 pages worth of not-that-funny jokes before getting to any real discussion. However, slashcode lets you change the values of different moderations. I find setting funny to "-2" cleans up things nicely.

[ Parent ]
Not worth it for me (none / 1) (#294)
by meaningless pseudonym on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 02:20:51 PM EST

Y'see, I like _some_ jokes. I'm quite happy to read them. However, considering that I can't end up with scores in a window greater than -1 to +5 I can't end up with a sensible discussion that contains _some_ jokes using their scoring system.

Hence a preference for a finer-grained K5 style system but with some form of M2 to help counteract the helpful soul who zeroed my previous post in this thread, and the ability to do a newest-first. The two of them together would, IMHO, help produce a more readable discussion because it'd become possible to differentiate more clearly from the masses and would enable stuff posted with more than 2 minutes thought to rise to the top.


[ Parent ]

Fascinating (4.50 / 14) (#13)
by QuickFox on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 04:36:46 AM EST

Your observations on what might be called the dynamics of generosity and politeness are very interesting. Keep exploring this on various sites! It sounds like in the long run it might lead to valuable insights into society, human interaction, and other important stuff.

So many cynics believe that such things make no difference. So many optimists are spontaneously doing well, and wish others would join and share the fun.

In fact, you might consider re-working the title and intro so that these dynamics become the main focus.

I won't be able to participate in your experiment, I have very, very little time for things like Kuro5hin, but I hope it'll work. Have fun, and good luck.

Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fi

And this is new? (3.00 / 2) (#90)
by TaoJones on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 01:31:53 AM EST

Your observations on what might be called the dynamics of generosity and politeness are very interesting. Keep exploring this on various sites! It sounds like in the long run it might lead to valuable insights into society, human interaction, and other important stuff.
In any social group that you wish to advance your "rank", study both the strong and the weak before you plan your strategy. Interact with both based on your observations. Examine the group's reactions to your moves, adjust your strategy and continue. Realize that the "weak" can be just as important to your advancement as the "strong".

This is new?

--
Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
Sun Tzu

[ Parent ]

Where did you get that idea? (4.00 / 2) (#119)
by QuickFox on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 12:07:41 PM EST

No, I didn't say it was new. I said it was fascinating.

The fact that a strategy can be planned is trivial, that wasn't my point.

What I find interesting is that attitudes like generosity and politeness in a social context seem to pay off in an easily observable way. What xutopia describes is probably a way to observe and quantify such things. There's debate among psychologists, philosophers, evolutionary theorists and others about how and why attitudes like generosity and optimism pay off and give a happier life and survive. What xutopia is doing might help find some interesting answers or clues or something.

Since it's tied to that star-ranking system it's worth trying on other sites with different systems.

It's not revolutionary, it's not a quantum leap, it's not history in the making. It's just a fascinating subject.

Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fi
[ Parent ]

Valid point. (5.00 / 2) (#170)
by TaoJones on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 01:32:50 AM EST

What xutopia describes is probably a way to observe and quantify such things.
I have a very limited theoretical grasp of Game Theory, so I was speaking from a viewpoint of personal experience rather than that of having a defined, quantitative model. Thanks for the prompting to do a bit of research on the subject.

BTW, I gave you a +4 and complemented your superior intelligence, so could you <wink> bump my post up a notch or so - in the spirit of Game Theory & all that...
--
"okay, here's how this will play out: people will banter back and forth ... and generally no one will change their minds.
LilDebbie

[ Parent ]

A five (3.00 / 2) (#295)
by QuickFox on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 08:44:17 PM EST

BTW, I gave you a +4 and complemented your superior intelligence, so could you <wink> bump my post up a notch or so - in the spirit of Game Theory & all that...

Hehe... You made me laugh and that gets you a five.

Not that it was that funny but the way you put it and all...

One problem though. I don't see anything in your comment about me having superior intelligence. Did you remove that in editing?

Having gotten that five, based on that, it looks to me like you now owe me a mention about me having superior intelligence...

Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fi
[ Parent ]

Beware (1.84 / 13) (#16)
by Stick on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 06:38:09 AM EST

Click


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
Nice work (4.25 / 12) (#23)
by ph317 on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 10:41:20 AM EST


I only wish a greater percentage of the world's population took so seriously the performing of real-world socio-economic experiments like this.

Well (4.00 / 3) (#102)
by cgp314 on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 04:34:45 AM EST

Well the saying goes that you can't solve a sociological problem with a technical solution. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.



-- American Weblog in London
[ Parent ]
Interesting, (4.28 / 7) (#27)
by kardis314 on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 11:33:09 AM EST

but, don't you think you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot by announcing your plan up front? Or, is that just another part of this particular experiment?

P.S.  Beware of drduck, I see him as possibly the biggest obstacle to this plan.


meme! (4.33 / 6) (#50)
by eudas on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 02:43:01 PM EST

pretty much telling people up front IMO would have either a) no effect or b) a positive effect.
it's like a suggestion spell... once the thought is implanted, the subconscious is infected..

eudas
"We're placing this wood in your ass for the good of the world" -- mrgoat
[ Parent ]

I see your point. (3.00 / 3) (#53)
by kardis314 on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 03:04:06 PM EST

I think I was approaching the problem with the assumption that there are certain elements on this site that wish to see it fail.  After being informed of this plan, I imagined these individuals doing everything in their power to sabotage this effort.  Maybe this faction of trolls does not exist, or is too small to matter.

[ Parent ]
meme v2 (4.66 / 4) (#58)
by eudas on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 03:56:17 PM EST

oh, you've got a valid point, all right.. but the concept of this game theory thing is that it's designed to take advantage of the way people think.. so you are manipulating them subconsciously. trolls don't really manipulate subconsciously, they are just aggressive and maintain a position through numbers. they wear you down by attrition... it's like religious wars, or political wars... you're competing for mindshare in the "all your base are belong to us" troll-camp vs the "we can make a difference!" happy-rating camp.

"the winning team shall be the first team that wins."  -- hitchhiker's guide

eudas
"We're placing this wood in your ass for the good of the world" -- mrgoat
[ Parent ]

Can I make that my sig? (4.00 / 2) (#55)
by ObviousTroll on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 03:27:24 PM EST

Beware of drduck, I see him as possibly the biggest obstacle to this plan. -- kardis314


Somewhere in America / There's a street named after my dad / And the home we never had.


[ Parent ]
Yes. (nt) (3.00 / 2) (#56)
by kardis314 on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 03:37:49 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Beware! (none / 1) (#106)
by Filip on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 07:00:41 AM EST

He acts according to the same game theory-based plan as xutopia!

(Though I have yet to make up my mind on whether that's good or not... ;)

-- I'm just a figment of your imagination.
[ Parent ]

Are you talking about (none / 3) (#141)
by kardis314 on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 08:09:58 PM EST

drduck, ObviousTroll, or myself?

[ Parent ]
Obviously... (5.00 / 2) (#151)
by Filip on Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 04:24:30 PM EST

...it's ObviousTroll I mean. What is putting you in his sig, if not flattering?

Though you are nice enough to count too I suppose.

Then again, if this makes niceness come off as suspicious behaviour, then mabe I'm going over board more than a little. ;)

-- I'm just a figment of your imagination.
[ Parent ]

Call me a cynical bastard (3.45 / 11) (#30)
by itsbruce on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 12:08:52 PM EST

But what you have described sounds more like an excersise in mutual ass-kissing and online group huggery. The fact that the effects of your tinkering disappeared soon after you left only underlines how phoney it was. No doubt many of the forum members find their stomachs rather less queasy now that the soma has been removed from the water supply.


--It is impolite to tell a man who is carrying you on his shoulders that his head smells.

Or... (4.33 / 4) (#41)
by Fon2d2 on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 01:56:45 PM EST

The design and implentation of the online feedback system naturally steers the community toward a more negative and greedy view of one another.

[ Parent ]
Economy (4.66 / 5) (#57)
by pyro9 on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 03:47:59 PM EST

OK, you're a cynical bastard :-)

Seriously, it sounds more like the economy. Confidence in getting stars for stars can easily be related to the concept of consumer confidence. As long as you feel sure you'll have more money next week, you spend. That boosts other people's confidence that they'll have money next week, so they spend (some of it comes back to you). When enough of this happens, the economy is healthy (and we have a bull market).

When we become less sure that we'll make more money, we spend less and start a downward cycle. That's a recession and/or a bear market.

Beyond that, it is an interesting and valid enough experiment in human psychology. In fact, I have seen such experiments in different forms.


The future isn't what it used to be
[ Parent ]
Anti-troll (4.00 / 7) (#39)
by cep on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 01:35:14 PM EST

Great. You seem to have found the secret of anti-trolling. With the current state of Kuro5hin, we will need lots of them.

By the way, there seems to be no name for the "anti-troll", probably because there are so few of them. The name should be something mythological, quasi-mythological or at least catchy. Any ideas?

Funny you mention this (3.16 / 6) (#42)
by xutopia on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 01:57:09 PM EST

I stumbled upon the word troll in http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=troll to know more about what trolls really meant.

What better than a paladin http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=paladin to fight mischevious trolls?

[ Parent ]

Troll comes from TROLLing, the fishing practice. (5.00 / 2) (#86)
by ultimai on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 12:48:39 AM EST

It's a metaphor for trolling for responses and the fishes (forum members) catching the bait (the trollish comment).

[ Parent ]
"fairy" comes to mind (3.66 / 4) (#43)
by glor on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 02:03:20 PM EST

. . . but it has its own connotations.

--
Disclaimer: I am not the most intelligent kuron.
[ Parent ]

Maybe (4.50 / 3) (#44)
by QuickFox on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 02:13:13 PM EST

Wizards and elves.

Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fi
[ Parent ]
A Goat (3.75 / 5) (#62)
by SocratesGhost on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 06:46:26 PM EST

From the Three Billy Goats Gruff

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
anti-trolls (1.00 / 3) (#65)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:16:18 PM EST

wwjd morons in christian chat rooms are apparently more wise than the whining intelligentia here: the "kuro5hin sucks now, the troll broke my toy" twits...

DM: you are walking along a long corridor, there is a door at the end.
you: open door
DM: there is a troll behind the door
you: kill troll
DM: you kill the troll. there is a long corridor, you walk along the corridor, there is a door at the end
you: open door
DM: there is a troll behind the door

ad nauseum....

______

Never argue with stupid people. they drag you down to their level and beat you through experience.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt.

http://www.christianforums.com/t54246&page=7

are you listening, oh whining twits of kuro5hin?

if you see a troll, do not rate him, do not respond to him

to do anything else, and you are not an anti-troll, you are the troll's fool

simple as that

an answer to all your problems


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you miss my point (3.33 / 4) (#70)
by SocratesGhost on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:43:28 PM EST

Two goats ignored the troll. The third faced off against him because he knew he could overcome the troll. That's the approach to take.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
i see your goat (3.00 / 4) (#75)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:58:28 PM EST

and raise you a fat fucking hairy troll who has no respect for the brothers grimm

lol

;-P


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

the anti-troll is silence (4.00 / 4) (#66)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:21:33 PM EST

wwjd morons in christian chat rooms are apparently more wise than the whining intelligentia here: the "kuro5hin sucks now, the troll broke my toy" twits...

DM: you are walking along a long corridor, there is a door at the end.
you: open door
DM: there is a troll behind the door
you: kill troll
DM: you kill the troll. there is a long corridor, you walk along the corridor, there is a door at the end
you: open door
DM: there is a troll behind the door

ad nauseum....

__

Never argue with stupid people. they drag you down to their level and beat you through experience.

    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt.

http://www.christianforums.com/t54246&page=7

are you listening, oh whining twits of kuro5hin?

if you see a troll, do not rate him, do not respond to him

to do anything else, and you are not an anti-troll, you are the troll's fool

simple as that

an answer to all your problems

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

So here's the problem (4.33 / 4) (#76)
by Simon Kinahan on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 08:01:51 PM EST

(and incidentally, I'm not talking about you here. Even if you refer to yourself as a troll, from my point of view you're a constructive not a desctructive influence here - even if you did give my comment a '1').

Most of the people who try to troll K5 do quite badly at it. They don't get many responses. They get ignored - just as you recommend - or spotted after a few posts, then ignored. Of course, there are odd successes. Its like teenage pop-groups that way. But most failed trolls have a basic attention-seeking psychology. So they resort to posting stuff that is more guaranteed to get a response: crapflooding, page-widening diaries, and just plain-old insults.

So, in fact, your motherly advice to just ingore them is counterproductive. If you ignore them, they get worse. To the point where the comments of many dairies are now unreadable, and a great many insulting, content-free comments are still visible in the stories. What, exactly, do you, oh not-so-wise-one suggest we do about it ?

Simon

If you disagree, post, don't moderate
[ Parent ]

urm (4.00 / 3) (#79)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 08:25:55 PM EST

i think your most wanted list does not match up with what is on most people's most wanted list here

most people here are looking for a constant "feel good vibe" and sterile cold rational discourse, where no one shouts, no one gets upset, and everyone behaves like they have a lobotomy

i guess we should draw a line between obvious antisocial evil behavior: crapflooding, page-widening diaries, and... racist comments

as for your "and just plain-old insults"

huh? are you for real?

do you honestly think you can talk to an anonymous human being without being insulted and yelled at?

a lot people seem to have a problem with this: somebody disagrees with me and is unhappy and they are complaining... whatever to do?

dude, we're not much that past monkeys throwing feces at each other

i suggest that you, and other earnest types here, get to know the parts of the dark side of human nature that will never budge, and to give up the ghost

acceptance is a powerful thing


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

No (5.00 / 2) (#159)
by synaesthesia on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 05:46:35 PM EST

if you see a troll, do not rate him, do not respond to him

No, you don't understand what an anti-troll is. Probably because you're not really a troll.


Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

On Anti-"Trolls" (3.00 / 2) (#71)
by Hide The Hamster on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:44:02 PM EST

They are typically against crapflooding and flamebait mostly. They are also usually terribly out of touch.


Free spirits are a liability.

August 8, 2004: "it certainly is" and I had engaged in a homosexual tryst.

[ Parent ]
I propose (3.00 / 2) (#100)
by KWillets on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 03:31:04 AM EST

Llort.

[ Parent ]
I thought they were called... (none / 1) (#109)
by dcheesi on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 10:01:37 AM EST

..Karma Whores? Oops, wrong forum! ;-)

[ Parent ]
Probably won't work as well here. (4.33 / 9) (#47)
by randyk on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 02:20:02 PM EST

The reward for getting high marks here is very weak to say the least. One could argue that Trusted User is actually a punishment.

Plus there's no way to really see who the highest rated poster is here. Once we go there, what's the difference between K5 and "I GOT THE POWERUP AND WON THE GAME"? It could be a measure of debvate thast there is a difference as it stands.


--
I love diaries like this. It's like a man who comes home to a burning house and asks the smoldering remains of his wife what he's missed. - rmg
Something like this happened for a while (4.40 / 22) (#60)
by Simon Kinahan on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 06:35:01 PM EST

For a while, especially during the period when K5 was dominated by political stories, there was a culture of giving high ratings to comments that were positive (level headed, empirical, personal, interesting) even if they you disagreed with them.

The biggest problem at that time was that people tended to rate stories and comments based on whether they agreed with them. Those who tried to rate based on quality rather than agreement did occasionally undermine this and give rise to a culture where people could actually learn something, although I must admit it only happened occasionally.

The biggest problem now, unfortunately, is that we have a few people whose only purpose here is to wreck things. The K5 rating system is set up for positive reinforcement, just as you suggest. While this is entirely the right thing from a "how to win friends and influence people" point of view, it doesn't help with people whose only purpose in life is to spoil something that used to have some kind of value. *shrug*

Simon

If you disagree, post, don't moderate

that was a quality post (4.00 / 7) (#64)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:11:18 PM EST

let me give it a 1

no system works if it doesn't have a mechanism for curtailing antisocial behavior. expecting people not to act asocial if they can act asocial without repercussions is not how you build a lasting system.

troll technology advances beyond the concept that you trust any old person who signs onto a system to be a virtuous individual.

but hey, don't mind me, go ahead and shoot the messenger rather than listen to this obvious wisdom.

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Well ... (4.28 / 7) (#69)
by Simon Kinahan on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:39:00 PM EST

I totally agree that any system must be able to curtail anti-social behaviour. K5s system for doing this is demonstrably inadequate.

I would argue that no purely technical system is actually capable of preventing anti-social behaviour. Some degree of human judgement is required. And the impossibility of properly verifying identities gets in the way even of that.

Given the technical obstacles, there are basically two things online comminities can do:

1. Trust some omnipotent individual or cabal to control misbehaviour.
2. Set up some kind of flawed system of self-regulation and trust users not to undermine it.

I would argue that (1) works better, but it doesn't scale, and K5 happens to do (2). It is pure hypocrisy for destrustive assholes to argue that just because they can undermine the system, whose flaws it is impossible to dispute, it is OK for them to do so.  Your post implies that it is. That position is quite unjustifiable.  

Simon

If you disagree, post, don't moderate
[ Parent ]

no (4.50 / 5) (#74)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:57:20 PM EST

i am implying that you shouldn't trust those who have not earned your trust yet

and you are incredibly naive if you think that those who get pleasure out of virtuous behavior are not equalled to or surpassed in strength by those who get pleasure out of antisocial behavior

you can not scold such people, you have to protect yourself from such people

but again, go ahead and shoot the messenger

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Messengers of what ? (4.44 / 9) (#80)
by Simon Kinahan on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 08:32:17 PM EST

Messengers that the Scoop moderation system is broken ? We know that, thanks. We've known it for longer than your account has existed here. But there is no unbroken system. In 20+ years of electronic communities, no workable, scalable system has been found.

So don't pretend antisocial behaviour has some redeeming value in demonstrating that its possible. We knew that. Antisocial behaviour is just that, and the person who does it is to blame for it. If they destroy something that used to have some value to someone, its their fault. Not that I expect that observation to change their behaviour. I'm sure they know what they're doing already. Assholes.

Simon

If you disagree, post, don't moderate
[ Parent ]

dude (4.00 / 2) (#81)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 08:41:54 PM EST

you are correct

but you should accept that which you can't change, and know the wisdom about what you can change

i think that's half of some famous quote or something ;-P


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you mean (4.42 / 7) (#108)
by MX5 on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 09:43:21 AM EST

"May the Lord grant me the courage to change the things I can change,
the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I have to kill because they piss me off."


[ Parent ]
There are better ways... (5.00 / 3) (#165)
by sudog on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 08:26:47 PM EST

Cryptography can help in situations like this. Specific personalities of Kuro5hin can be created which can be simply browsed by people outside the personality, and actively contributed to by people who've been accepted by a certain weight of users within that personality.

Let me explain a bit: By personality, I suppose I could also say "realm" or "usergroup" or something similar. However, the only way to get people involved in a personality without worrying about trolls infesting the entire forum and ruining it for everyone, is to build a system where a founder grants membership to others, others can grant membership to others, and so on in a hierarchical tree of membership.

By "weight" I mean that each degree of removal from the founder reduces the weight that a user can vote with: ejecting other members can require a certain weight of peers and superiors, a single revocation by your immediate sponsor or his immediate sponsor, or the founder. Removing comments can require a certain lesser weight, and votes are timestamped and thus to vote to get something done requires a certain coordination between members.

But it is a network of trust and authentication: the member can be guaranteed that people he wants in his group are going to be there, and people who are destructive to the group are ejected and can no longer post nor participate in that particular personality.

On the other hand, anyone can be a founder and create their own personality on the primary site, which again, other people can browse or peruse, but not participate until invited to do so by one of the existing members.

This solves some of the more interesting problems of anonymous trust, and can be literally tweaked on-the-fly based on simple sets of rules. Versioning the membership or other forms of user data (comments perhaps?) would mean that if someone manages to compromise a founder's keys (or someone else of importance) and screws things up with a bunch of arbitrary votes, then the data can be rolled back and the damage easily undone.

But consider some scenarios: one user, a troll, posts in (for example) a common area some particularly interesting comments and is invited to join multiple personalities on the site. He does so, and insinuates himself into those personalities. After a while, it becomes obvious that the user is a subtle troll and a chunk of his peers, or a handful of his superiors, or his direct superior (the one who invited him) or the founder elect to get rid of him from the personality. The vote passes, the user is ejected, and they can then clean up any mess he's left behind.

If someone in the upper-ups happens to turn sour on the personality and begins to invite people who invite people who invite trolls, then the membership hierarchy is interconnected enough to make it easy to see (and excise) the responsible people, because the sponsoring links are all available for everyone to examine and police.

If someone in a position of power suddenly decides to bring in a mass of people he can use to manipulate the votes like puppets (and thus eject legitimate members for example) then this too can be tracked and excised--by the founder of the personality, if necessary. The only way that a group of trolls could really screw something up would be to perfectly infiltrate a group and stay so stealthy and so helpfully contributing that they begin to outnumber the legitimately contributing users. It would be quite a tremendous undertaking, and require perfect cooperation between all of them.

How often do you see mass groups of trolls (of the kind that are ruining the comments here on Kuro5hin) who are even capable of cooperating on such a grand scale?

Course, this requires a custom client, custom server, programmers, the ability to deal with trees of relationships, and a knowledge of information versioning..  but anyway, it'd be better than anonymous people who have no relationship to one another voting each other up and down.

Think about how a system like this would eliminate people like drduck! There would be no more ratings cheaters..  no more anonymous trolls to worry about.. no more fiddling around..

And if one personality and another got together, the option of merging could be tendered..  or they could simply subscribe to one another's news feeds and have the other personality show up on their own main pages.

Technically, this system could scale endlessly, too. When you get into the thousands of people, a huge mass of people could get together and with their combined voting weight (which decreases as the direct traceable line to the founder lengthens) could oust higher-up members, which could only be protected if their peers were actively watching what was going on...

Anyway, it's a rough idea..  but really the only way to go. Key-based authentication of a specific user combined with a webwork of specific trust.


[ Parent ]

trust (4.50 / 5) (#82)
by ZorbaTHut on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 09:49:37 PM EST

i am implying that you shouldn't trust those who have not earned your trust yet

That's a rather interesting point. What if Scoop had an option to let you ignore the ratings of certain users? Just add the various troll accounts and troll-loving accounts to the list - I bet that would work *beautifully*.

Right now, we trust everyone to rate properly - marking bad people as untrusted might do wonders to fix that.

[ Parent ]

or like on slashdot at least (4.33 / 6) (#83)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 09:56:57 PM EST

where you can flag certain users as warm and cuddly or sharp and nasty and see a little orb of love or hate

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Hell yeah. (5.00 / 2) (#138)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 06:34:20 PM EST

I have been wanting a friend/foe type system here on k5 ever since it started making slashdot mostly readable again.

"But it breaks up the community," is a completely impotent rebuttal to what might be the best thing that could happen to k5 at this point.



[ Parent ]

You create the system you believe in (none / 1) (#130)
by michaelp on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 04:27:01 PM EST

so yeah, 'shooting the messenger' is quite just when the 'messenger' is telling you antisocial behavior is peachy.

Because when dealing with human systems, the 'messenger' is also a preacher.

On the other hand, if a site was popular enough, I suppose distrusted users could be banned automatically, which would at least monkeywrench the destructive behavior of the various cults of nihilism.

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

[ Parent ]

Social vs Asocial (4.66 / 4) (#98)
by bugmaster on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 02:44:16 AM EST

Actually, trolls are the most social users of any community system. They crave community participaton -- otherwise, their very existence has no meaning. The most asocial users are lurkers.

The interesting problem is: how can you discourage community-destroying behavior ? I think that you actually can't. Humans, by their very nature, are rude, selfish and self-absorbed; i.e., most humans are trolls in one aspect or another. Thus, community sites are ultimately doomed to failure. Sad but true.
>|<*:=
[ Parent ]

well not doom, but be real (none / 2) (#110)
by circletimessquare on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 10:18:15 AM EST

i mean, i live in times square, tourists from around the world here come to gawk

meanwhile, over to the side of this building is a mumbling schozphrenic taking a shit all over the side of the building

so when we talk about "human community" we simply have to readjust what we mean by the human element

because it is certainly not some idealized human behavior that is sought in utopian fantasy

it is human, real: capable of great beauty

and capable of loud farting noises

;-P


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

_ (2.58 / 12) (#61)
by Blah Blah on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 06:39:34 PM EST



[
Signal11 (4.60 / 10) (#67)
by tiamat on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:33:18 PM EST

Am I the only one old enough to remember the slashdot experiment?

//

I do like the article, but it bears noting that this has been done before, that's all.

+1 section from me.

Yeah (4.33 / 4) (#99)
by motasem on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 03:23:25 AM EST

The Signal11 fiasco was the first thing I thought of when reading this article. It had a much stronger effect as it was the reason for a lot of changes to slashdot's moderation policies (max karma, bitchslapping and many more). If I'm not mistaken, it was the reasn for coining the term "Karma Whore" also.

[ Parent ]
the slashdot experiment (4.66 / 4) (#107)
by jolt rush soon on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 07:12:06 AM EST

is something i'd really like to hear about.
--
Subosc — free electronic music.
[ Parent ]
This makes me feel old (4.85 / 14) (#111)
by motasem on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 10:37:56 AM EST

Here are the bits I remember. If I got anything wrong, please correct me.

Signal 11 is an old Slashdot user. He was a very active poster and commented on almost every story there. Back then, there was no karma cap and a user's karma was visible to all. Needless to say, it turned into a contest for the highest karma. I remember seeing accounts with 300+ (and maybe more) karma. Signal 11 was considered a "Slashdot icon" and the editors liked him.

Some users stated openly that they hate him. I personally didn't like him very much and felt that he was a pretentious showoff (?).

There were a number of incidents where a user would mod down one of signal 11's comments and when the editors knew about it, they would modbomb the last few dozens of that user's comments to -1 thus burning his karma and making his comments default to -1. Few flame wars were a result of this. There was even another term for that that I don't remember (it was the name of a perl variable that was stored along with the user's info in the db).

One day he posted a comment explaining what he was doing, he said that he was trying to accumulate karma by posting comments that agree with what most of slashdotters think. He said also that he doesn't believe all of what he posted and only posted things that he figured would please moderators. He was getting very good at guessing what kind of comments would get moded up and he had no trouble getting most of his comments a very high rating.

He then explained that he did this to discover how moderation works and to "prove" that it doesn't really work as intended. And IIRC he also suggested things to fix it and improve it.

The Slashdot editors weren't very happy about this. There were a lot of email and IRC flame fests between him and the editors. Then they introduced the karma cap (+50) and then made karma invisible for other users and finally they recently made it "verbal". All of these changes made quite a stir within slashdotters.

Signal 11 finally said he was leaving or at least he wouldn't be posting there anymore. He "migrated" to K5. Check his stories and comments and you may find more info there. He seems to have left K5 now or he is using a different account.

For more info:



[ Parent ]
as a troll, i say (3.74 / 27) (#73)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 07:53:05 PM EST

my behavior is this: i am entirely capable of good behavior

check out some of my stories for proof

but good behavior is boring

check out some of comments for proof of that

i don't want to have a nice pat thread of rational discourse with some wanker

i want to reach my hands out of his computer screen and smack his face against the table

if kuro5hin were a real, live community, i would get quickly arrested and kicked out for loud, unruly, and violent behavior

and you know what?

that's humanity

and to get more to the point: my behavior may suck, but i have been in plenty of conversations here where i'm a screaming howling salivating maniac, and the person opposite me on the thread is composed, rational, and... hypocritical and downright evil in the nice, pat way they go about their disgusting mentality

better a virtuous troll than a well-behaved evil hypocrite, i say

i am honest: i am a troll

think about the value of that honesty, and judge me against those who are so very well-behaved, and so very much full of shit

how you can imagine a community where nice cold rational discourse will proceed without these little cold evil wankers inspiring a normal human being to propose bloody murder on the wanker is beyond me

all you intelligent wisemen apparently are seeking a way to write the human being out of your online communities

and then you will get what you want: a dead, lifeless hulk no one will visit

i submit that us trolls give life and humanity to a community, in all of the ugliness that is humanity. to deny that ugliness is inherent to humanity and inseparable from it, and to try to extricate that essential human ugliness from online discourse only sucks the life out of it, i say.

if you folks really are such intelligent wise men, you are entirely familiar with the concept of morbid curiosity... what makes us look? what part of the human soul moves us to look at what our mind knows is bad for us? answer that, and you understand the true place of the troll in the online ecosystem

here an example of what i mean: turmeric. a lot of us have had run ins with the recently dearly departed, and a lot of us howl and moan and gnash our teeth at his behavior.

but you know what? he's famous, he's loved in a strange way, because he has come to define what kuro5hin is all about. some of us began to look forward to being chewed out and spit on in classic turmeric bile fashion, and to pruposely scroll to and read his diatribes.

why? morbid curiosity. if any of you here can say you have not read a turmeric post and smiled and chuckled and got a laugh out of him, you are a huge liar. a lot of us miss him.

imagine that.

turmeric gave LIFE to kuro5hin.

imagine that.

a reason to come to kuro5hin, in a morbidly curious way that many of you deny exists in yourself, your own darkside of your humanity. but it is there, you are only blind or a hypocrite.

and now you oh so wise men sit around thinking up ways to turn a website into a cold sterile good vibes type place. tek-tips is a fucking PROGRAMMING website for crying out loud. i love tech tips, i have used it for years... but it's a TECHNICAL FUCKING REPOSITORY, jesus christ. if tek-tips is an online community then a cold sterile server room is a fucking discotec

how do we get the trolls out of kuro5hin you ask?

i submit to you that the moment anyone succeeds in doing that is the moment the community dies.

if you don't understand the deeper truth behind that surface contradiction, you don't understand human beings and how we really operate and what really drives us.

we are human beings. we watch horror movies. we jump off cliffs with parachutes, we leer at bad behavior. we do things THAT OUR BAD FOR OURSELVES TO REMIND US WE ARE STILL ALIVE.

you cannot deny that ugly side of your humanity without denying your humanity.

and that, my wise men, is true wisdom.

there are no peaks without valleys, and when you try to remove the valleys, you find that there is nothing to frame the peaks with and show them to be peaks.

know that, or nothing at all.

do not deny that which makes you human, passionate, engaged

and for the wankers: the sooner you wankers get used to dealing with mean, irrational, pissed-off motherfuckers, the better you will be able to navigate through life, and maybe we'll smack some sense into your full-of-shit-wth-a-smile-on-your-face behavior and you'll grow the fuck up.

we trolls provide a service to kuro5hin by giving this place HUMAN LIFE, and the honest amongst you will admit it the great service we do for y'all

now kiss my ass

lol

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Perseverence Furthers... (4.66 / 4) (#85)
by Pluto on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 11:16:33 PM EST

I really like your stories, so it seems strange to say:

It is possible that you are getting more satisfation out of yourself, that the community is getting out of you.

[individual]<---------^--------->[community]

The individual is always at one end of the balance bar. The community is always at the other. Such is life on earth among humans. Neither will be completely satisfied, and both must sacrifice so that the other can exist.

This is social maturity.
_______________________________________
Burgeoning technologies require outlaw zones... deliberately unsupervised playgrounds for technology itself. -- William Gibson
[ Parent ]

well said! (none / 1) (#112)
by circletimessquare on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 10:42:21 AM EST

moreso, a community is just emergent behavior from a bunch of individuals

i would like to say that it's beneficial to think of only individuals, and ignore the community, it will take care of itself, but i think it's impossible not to think in terms of the community for human beings at some point or another...

what i guess i am saying is that it is possible to build a strong community by completely ignoring it

and only thinking and working in an individual level... but perhaps this is an idealized behavior that is only the mirror image of those who can only think at a community level, and can't seem to wrap their heads around individual behavior and why some trolls or lurkers don't fit into their model

i guess i don't know what the hell i am saying ;-P

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

What You Do Best (5.00 / 3) (#140)
by Pluto on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 06:49:15 PM EST

It doesn't matter what you think. What matters is that you DO think! And you do that very well, indeed.

I thought your 9/11 article was really important, BTW.
_______________________________________
Burgeoning technologies require outlaw zones... deliberately unsupervised playgrounds for technology itself. -- William Gibson
[ Parent ]

thanks dude ;-) (nt) (none / 1) (#145)
by circletimessquare on Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 12:45:48 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
YES! (4.50 / 3) (#94)
by supahmowza on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 02:05:23 AM EST

Amen. A-fucking-men. Ta bu was right, I do need to familiarize myself with you. Expect me to start haunting your diary.


Drugs are the solution to all life's problems
Well, drugs and handguns
[ Parent ]
Right (4.00 / 2) (#97)
by bjlhct on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 02:33:03 AM EST

Right

*
[kur0(or)5hin http://www.kuro5hin.org/intelligence] - drowning your sorrows in intellectualism
[ Parent ]
You get a five, but you misunderstand. (4.50 / 6) (#103)
by Imperfect on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 05:22:25 AM EST

To deny the ugliness in humanity is folly. However, it is our struggle against that ugliness that brings forth the beauty in humanity.

There are peaks and there are valleys, but you sir, are not a valley. You are at best a dip. Other sites on the internet certainly are valleys. K5 (to listen to some) is a valley at times. I personally would like it to be a peak.

Trolls humiliate and demean and degenerate good things. tumeric was not a troll in that sense, and I would not call him one. This is not a troll in that sense, and I would not call it one.

Trolls are asshats that make jokes of a man who has just lost his father. Trolls look at a problem and ask "how can I make this worse?" Trolls, in short, provide a service to K5 by giving HUMAN LIFE something to struggle with, and the honest amongst us will admit that we seriously need to hand out more zeros to such idiots.

You however, get a five. 'Cause you're close.

And you're so keeeeyuuuute!

Not perfect, not quite.
[ Parent ]
agreed (5.00 / 3) (#113)
by circletimessquare on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 10:46:39 AM EST

a lot of the argument here is more an argument over semantics and definitions

i think when some people say trolls, they include happy go lucky trolls like myself and lurkers in the same word, while you draw the distinction, as do i

there is definitely a world of difference between social negative behavior and asocial negative behavior, and i don't know if some people appreciate that

i guess you could also say that there are no heroes without monsters

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I agree wholeheartedly. (5.00 / 2) (#114)
by Imperfect on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 11:08:38 AM EST

But if there were no monsters, why would we need heroes?

Not perfect, not quite.
[ Parent ]
it's a symbiotic relationship (nt) (none / 1) (#127)
by circletimessquare on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 03:33:28 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Trolls and Trolls (5.00 / 5) (#121)
by porkchop_d_clown on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 12:32:03 PM EST

There are trolls and there are trolls. I'm a sarcastic fellow, so people constantly accuse me of trolling. Fine - if forcing someone to actually defend their preconceptions is trolling, well I guess I'm a troll. If passionately defending what you believe in makes you a troll - well, fine - you may piss me off, but I like you more than some jerk who can't even be bothered to care.

On the other hand, I can't help but think of the crap-flooders and mob-bombers as being the internet equivalent of an STD. Sure you can live with it, but why would you want to?


--
Heinz was quoted as saying: "But the sheep are so soft and wooley," immediately before he was put into custody.


[ Parent ]
100% dead on (5.00 / 2) (#128)
by circletimessquare on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 03:38:16 PM EST

we need new verbiage, and commonly agreed upon defintions of what a troll is

people throw the word around too much and it's meaning is fluid, depending upon who you talk to

but somebody who gets passionate and heated in an honest thread versus someone who asocially modbombs are a universe apart in behavior, but unfortunately, not in terminology

we need a monster's manual/ fiend's folio of online troll-like behavior, so we can easily distinguish between the truly evil and those with just a little too much froth in their beer

with a definitive compendium like that, then we can really talk about online behaviors and what to promote/ deny/ ignore

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

So hard. (5.00 / 3) (#131)
by tkatchev on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 04:47:59 PM EST

Improving your writing style for added legibility would do wonders for your trolling acumen.


   -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.
[ Parent ]

says one troll to another (nt) (none / 1) (#146)
by circletimessquare on Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 12:46:27 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Exactly so. (none / 1) (#150)
by tkatchev on Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 02:32:35 PM EST

I'm just giving you tips on proper trolling technique.

   -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.
[ Parent ]

You suck. (5.00 / 2) (#158)
by sudog on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 05:33:39 PM EST

You'll always suck, and if you are anything like this in real life, I submit to you that in any normal community it is you who would be thrashed and pommelled far more than the other way around. Normal people don't like to live in the environment you create.

Also, you're neglecting to consider the former academic communities that grew and prospered before it became fashionable to "be" a troll.

That's right, you're a fashion-rider. Nothing more. You don't contribute with your silly self-justifying rants--you are just as worthless as you say everyone else is. The sad part is that you are probably aware of this: thus, I post to inform those who wouldn't normally be perfectly aware of your stupidity, and not because you are worth any rehabilitation I could visit on you.

If you are like this, you are a disgusting human, worthless, foolish, destructive, self-aggrandizing, egotistical, moronic, and precisely the kind of person who makes civilized discourse in what could be a very worthwhile forum, impossible.


[ Parent ]

thank you for tweaking my ego- 2 things... (none / 1) (#161)
by circletimessquare on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 06:01:52 PM EST

1. currently, this comment is rated 4.20 out of 20 ratings

democratically speaking, your opinion, no matter how loudly voiced, is in the definitive minority about my words

2. you need to brush up on some basic public relations: there is no such thing as bad press

when you blast this hot air at me, you do not wither me, or move anyone to your pov about me, you simply say to people "this person circletimessquare has moved me to great emotion"

so they look at me and say "wow, this guys really moves people"

you've done nothing but tweak my ego in front of everyone else. your strong emotional content only inflates my fame/ infamy int he eyes of anyone reading your words

in short, you are trolled in fine style

the negative coloration you have given that emotion remains unimportant, because, you see, anyone reading your or my words who is an impartial observer has no reason to trust you more than me- get it?

so thank you, fine sir, for contributing to my infamy/ fame, by, ironically, so vociferously calling me a fashion-rider ;-)

lol

xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox

smooches asshole

;-P


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Welcome to the land of the trolled.. (5.00 / 3) (#163)
by sudog on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 07:32:41 PM EST

..nice to see you grant me the same recognition as you think I've granted you. For if my post were what you say it is, and by implication *any* strongly-worded reply to what is obviously a troll were what you say it is, then you have also granted strength and recognition to my own point of view. Of course, you're wrong, you and I both know you're wrong, and anyone reading this worth their salt also knows you're wrong.

It's obvious to me that you are simply continuing your pointless illogic because you find your infamy empowering in a pathetic, idiotic sense.

Well isn't that a lovely way to think about your destructive habits?

I also enjoy how you consider the comment ratings validation for your moronic drivel. In the same vein, I snicker to myself when you deliberately (and obviously) misinterpret cool observation with emotional overdrive on my part. It is impossible for one such as yourself, with your irrelevant egotism, obviously low intelligence, who has made the newbie troller's mistake of identifying yourself as a troll and then gloating about it, to troll me.

You see, in order for a troll to be effective, you must raise the stronger emotions of your target to a heightened level. In our case, you seem to be confusing my amusement and pity with blind anger and hatred.

Yes, I pity you. You have my unending, patronizing pity. You poor soul, you poor, benighted fool. You misled sheep. You unenlightened oaf. If you were the shit I might step on lying in a coiled pile on the street, I would, out of pity, push you into the nearby lawn to fertilize my neighbour's flowerbed. You are meaningless; as a troll, you suck. As a human, you fail. As a soul, you wither. Your pointless existence paradoxically saddens and gladdens me: saddens because I know you were led to where you are by the true trolls, the ones who are actually capable of fooling people smarter than they are; and gladdens because you and people like you have made trolls so easy to spot by the distracted masses that the only people you think you troll are trolls themselves.

The funny part is that you think my words have the same effect on our readers as yours do. You are, of course, deluded. Take a reasonable human being who is interested in civility and constructive human interaction. Who would they most likely side with? You, who post vitriol and attempt to convince people you are necessary for human advancement? Or me, who outs you for the sub-human that you are, and exposes you to the simple light of truth for people who are too bored or casual to notice for themselves?

Keep on convincing yourself. I'll just sit here and laugh at your pathetic attempts. :) I have the time; it's obvious you do too. But know this: as much as you reply to me, and this thread continues, I grow stronger, and you grow weaker.


[ Parent ]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (none / 1) (#164)
by circletimessquare on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 08:11:09 PM EST

look at all those pretty words

shakespeare my friend:

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

try to understand the implication if you will, and then you will understand what you look like right now LOL

you really flatter me with all the effort

smooches lovey!

you've become another sycophant in my extensive fan club ;-P

xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You're right, I'm right. (5.00 / 2) (#166)
by sudog on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 08:44:03 PM EST

Why, thanks for agreeing with me.

Quite the ego on you to think someone who simply pities you is in your "fanclub". You think your little moronic quips are anything but laughable?

You're smart not to engage yourself. We both know you'd lose.


[ Parent ]

sigh (none / 1) (#167)
by circletimessquare on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 09:21:50 PM EST

you're actually just another in a long line to go down this sycophantic road by attacking me voraciously and thinking you are proving something to me, to yourself, to anyone

let me show you some clues, and you can use your razor edge wit to find your way to the larger issue you seem to miss:

1. me, me, me, me and my big giant soul-sucking ego

fine

whatever

that's me

i'm a troll with a big ego

i said that, not you, long before oyu ever showed up- do you understand that concept?

see what that honesty allows me? have you ever heard me say anything about myself to the contrary?

have you ever seen me, at any point in this thread, somehow blind to myself, blind to my identity of who i am and what i do? are you somehow teaching me a lesson about myself i don't already know? are you pointing out some modicum of pride i have too much of? are you somehow illuminating a corner of my soul i did not see?

let's see if you can follow the bouncing ball:

we have a thread going on here in which you feel it necessary to attack me for paragraphs on end- do i mischaracterize what is going on here in any way?

do you see?

YOU are making me the issue NOT ME

simple pop psychology my friend, there is nothing you can say to me that would impress me, BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ME FOOL

you know me better than myself? LOL

and who made me the issue again? YOU DID FOOL

LOOK AT THE FUCKING THREAD FOOL

you are a sycophant, a stalker, a parasite

i feel sorry for whatever woman you meet, you have a dangerous poverty of character, because you need to latch yourself reflexively upon any personality or character you see, and attack it, due to a poverty of self-assurance in yourself

you're a dime a dozen, you're dime novel psychology, you're just run-of-the-mill garden variety sociopathic teenager full of righteous indignation and not a clue how or where to vent, so you attack anyone you see on that rises onto your limited horizon

look, dude, do you really think i would have made it this far as a troll here if i could not stand the reflexive simple mindless kneejerk attacks on me by the likes of you?

you say there is no emotional content in your missives delivered at me?

really?

you can look back on this thread and believe that?

you go right on attacking me friend

you write a fucking NOVEL about how much i suck

you go ahead and waste the time and typing

it proves nothing but that you have some sort of obsessive defect in your character

what am i supposed to do? be your psychological wet nurse? "oh, my gosh! this fucker showed me the light! oh! horror! how could i have seen the error of my ways!!!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

YOU MADE ME THE FUCKING ISSUE FOOL NOT ME YOU STUPID FUCK

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

come to momma little troll

because anyone else reading this character sees this:

you attack me

i defend myself

THAT'S ALL THAT'S FUCKING GOING ON HERE!

we're not talking about iraq, or france, or gay marriage, or space exploration, or anything EXCEPT FUCKING ME WHICH YOU MADE THE TOPIC

i didn't ask to talk to you dear, dear, friend

you picked me out and latched right on, little chigger

time to take you off with the tweezers and drop you in the alcohol, tick

keep up the attacks, and think about what you look like to anyone else reading this thread

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

;-)

feed the troll indeed, little snack

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Too funny.. (5.00 / 2) (#168)
by sudog on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 09:42:28 PM EST

As I expected, you're just as easily manipulated as all the rest. By your own measure...

...I just won.

You and your kind aren't as necessary as you think. I engage you here to point this out. And I hardly think two or three replies qualifies as stalking--if that's so, then quit stalking me, criminal.


[ Parent ]

Actually (5.00 / 2) (#169)
by kraant on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 12:37:21 AM EST

As far as I can tell, the two of you are jerking each other off...
--
"kraant, open source guru" -- tumeric
Never In Our Names...
[ Parent ]
thank you thank you thank you (none / 1) (#175)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 12:44:48 PM EST

sudog, synaesthesia:

is there a ray of sunlight somewhere striking your brains yet?

do you possibly perceive of your blindness, your hypocrisy yet?

do you not see how you, for whatever you criticize me of, are no better than me, in fact, are just the same?

do you not see how by engaging me the way you do, ABOUT ME, you do not elevate yourselves, you come down to my level?

i am a troll, i am intellectually honest, I ADMIT WHAT AND WHO I AM AND ALWAY S HAVE

THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN ACCUSE ME OF I HAVE NOT ALREADY ADMITTED TO BEING MONTHS BEFORE YOU EVER KNEW ME HERE

but you 2?

lol

apparently, you can accuse me of doing something, while doing the same thing yourselves, WHILE ATTACKING ME, and somehow that what? elevates you?

what povery of character and personality moves people to act like you two?

this is how you react to me: you ignore me: that is the superior reaction, just ask kraant

99% of people here on kuro5hin get this concept, you 2 clearly do not

hatred of me is not superior than ignoring me, in fact your hatred of me is quite the inferior reaction, it leads to more infamy for me

what in gods name prevents you sycophants from wrapping your mind around this concept?

but by all means, i hope you have enjoyed your trip into my world

the tourist gift shop is on your left on the way out

have a nice day sycophants

lol


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

How very amusing (5.00 / 2) (#177)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 01:10:56 PM EST

Are you suggesting that George Bush and Saddam Hussein are "the same," on account of being locked in battle with one another? So you're one of these people who needs to learn to get some perspective now, eh?!

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]
if you make me the issue (none / 1) (#178)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 01:16:44 PM EST

you cannot win the argument, because you are talking about me, which is something you know less about than me

you can argue with me about issues unrelated to me, but when you argue with me about me, you lose on a number of levels

this is all very remedial and simple and understood by most everyone

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

The thing is, (5.00 / 2) (#179)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 01:19:43 PM EST

Everyone else understands I'm not making you the issue; the issue is your inability to reason, about which you are the last to know.


Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]
wow (none / 1) (#181)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 01:23:36 PM EST

you are not making me the issue?

do you not follow me around?

do you not attack me personally?

my inability to reason?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

All I have to go on... (5.00 / 2) (#183)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 02:08:33 PM EST

... is what you present to us here on Kuro5hin.

I don't know the colour of your hair, the name of your cat, the model of car you drive.

However, I do know that you (kuro5hin.org/users/circletimessquare, rather than whoever the hell you are when you're not posting to Kuro5hin) are completely incapable of engaging in rational discourse. And from this knowledge I occasionally posit other things, such as that you need to see a shrink.

Sudog has you sussed; the "troll" thing is merely a defense mechanism. Remeber, I've been arguing with you here on Kuro5hin for way, way longer than you've managed to attain peer approval in that most cynical of ways.


Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

good this is a lot to work with (none / 1) (#185)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 02:24:20 PM EST

maybe we'll make a breakthrough today

everything you say is true, even your accusations of me

i already know these things, long before i even knew you existed

and here it is: WHO GIVES A SHIT

i certainly don't

so, the question for you is:

why do you care? why do you give a shit?

why do you have the need to tell me these things i already know?

why do you feel the need to engage me in this manner, to follow me around, to attack me as you do?

would it not be superior to just ignore me?

but no, you must engage me, you must stoop to my level

so where does that leave you?

let's put it this way: who is more the foolish?

the fool?

or the guy following him around?

that's you synaesthesia, you follow me around like a puppy dog, and it's creepy

and i need to see a shrink?

look, popeye said it best "i yam what i yam", and i'm quite comfortable with myself, and i like myself, thank you very much, in all of the ways you do not like about me

what is your goal here? to get me to stop liking myself or something?

i admit to all of the behavior you accuse me of along time ago, before you ever heard of me

I DON'T CARE

WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT ME

yes, creepy stalker, "you don't know the colour of your hair, the name of my cat, the model of car i drive," and frankly, i'm glad you don't because you creep me out you fucking stalker

this is not a dating site, and i don't swing that way

so maybe you can make a big fucking breakthrough today you creepy fucking sycophant and just maybe, with a little hope

YOU CAN STOP FUCKING FOLLOWING ME AROUND


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

What about yourself? (5.00 / 2) (#186)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 02:49:36 PM EST

Why do you post to kuro5hin at all? Why do you care?

Why do you spend so much time telling me not to follow you around? Why do you care?

but no, you must engage me, you must stoop to my level

If you think that pointing out the logical fallacies in your arguments is "stooping to your level", well, not only do you do yourself out of a point (if you wonder why I care, look to your "level") but you're shamefully wrong:

All that is needed for bullshit to triumph is for right-thinking men to say nothing.

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

i give up (none / 1) (#189)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 02:56:11 PM EST

keep following me around

i will care about kuro5hin because it's a good community

and apparently, you will care about me

my very own fanboy, how weird

"Why do you spend so much time telling me not to follow you around? Why do you care?"

because, it's embarassing... more for you than me, you know honey... i mean do you have any idea of what you look like?

our behavior defines us... by that rule, you are really pathetic

there is no "right thinking" going on here dude

there is no "pointing out logical fallacies"

all that stopped happening a long time ago... you made me the issue, not the real issues

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Look... (5.00 / 2) (#191)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:04:24 PM EST

...for fuck's sake. I told you fucking ages ago that I was an anti-troll. When are you going to stop anti-biting?

p.s. Do you actually know which of these is a better definition of sycophancy?

1. Me telling you that you're fucked in the head, that you're stupid and can't string rational thought together...

or

2. You telling me that everything I do is all about you.

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

you're not an anti-troll (none / 1) (#193)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:17:27 PM EST

you're a troll, just like me, and everyone can see it

HAHAHAHAHAHA

you are really pathetic

if you spent 1% of the time you spend jerking me off actually writing a story, you'd be a well-respected member of kuro5hin

as it is, by your actions and posts, you've come to define yourself as circletimesquare's little bitch

anti-troll?

HAHAHAHAHAHA

oh my god!

well, at least you are entertaining ;-)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Nah he's not. (5.00 / 2) (#203)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:33:07 PM EST

He's serving a useful function in the Kuro5hin community. I think it's great, and it's nice to know someone else who's capable of capitalizing the first letter in his sentences thinks you're a goof-up too. :-)


[ Parent ]
i am a goof up (none / 1) (#209)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:42:22 PM EST

i am capable of capitalizing, look at some of my stories, i choose not to

anything else you need to know all about wonderful me you seem to love following around so much?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Like I said.. fashionboy.. (5.00 / 2) (#229)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:10:09 PM EST

At least you're not talking in l33tsp3k. I suppose that's something to be thankful about.

And I hardly think a single, long thread counts as me following you around. Who looked up whose stories? I wasn't even aware that you posted stories, because that information was irrelevant. Instead, I'm starting to think you're *my* fanboy.

When did you start the Sudog fanclub?


[ Parent ]

do you understand hypocrisy? (none / 1) (#239)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:24:59 PM EST

what are you doing in this thread that iam not and visa versa?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I am serving posterity.. (5.00 / 2) (#248)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:35:38 PM EST

..while you are simply serving yourself.

I am actively doing something to excise you from the wound you fester in, while you are simply trying to make your infection worse.


[ Parent ]

you are serving posterity? (none / 1) (#252)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:40:33 PM EST

by acting like me?

i am serving myself?

and you are not serving yourself?

perhaps i am serving kuro5hin better than you

because we do have posterity here

a giant wonking huge thread

in which you act like me, a hypocrit

a beacon for the future, a record of your behavior

a troll

serving himself

you ;-)

all here, on kuro5hin, forever

posterity

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

god i love it!

you bit it big time loser!

you have to be the dumbest hugest hypocrit i have EVER MET!!!!

god i love this!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Cauterizing a wound... (5.00 / 2) (#257)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:46:08 PM EST

...requires fire or some form of painful antiseptic. The wound is what you fester in, and the fire we're using is this thread.

Admit the statement! Admit to us all that your antisocial behaviour is NOT beneficial!

[ Parent ]

it amazes me (none / 1) (#268)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:54:03 PM EST

dude!

"Admit to us all that your antisocial behaviour is NOT beneficial!"

what part of this DOES NOT APPLY TO YOUR BEHAVIOR RIGHT NOW

jesus christ you are the blindest biggest hypocritcal troll i have ever met


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

The part where... (5.00 / 2) (#289)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 07:27:58 PM EST

...I make you look like an ass, so I can point and laugh at you later on in other threads.


[ Parent ]
You're not a troll (5.00 / 2) (#205)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:37:07 PM EST

as it is, by your actions and posts, you've come to define yourself as circletimesquare's little bitch

You're your own bitch. I'm willing to be your pimp if you need me to.


Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

you need to find a girlfriend (none / 1) (#208)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:41:35 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Once again... (5.00 / 2) (#212)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:49:11 PM EST

...you couldn't be more wrong. My girlfriend and I have been together for more than eight years.


Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]
good (none / 1) (#240)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:25:45 PM EST

if you show her the same amount of passion you do in following me around and attacking me, you'll be together forever ;-P

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Utterly shocked.. (5.00 / 2) (#247)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:34:42 PM EST

Hey I think this one is a veiled compliment..!

Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor.

Now why can't you just make that statement and be done with it?


[ Parent ]

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT HYPOCRISY IS? (nt) (none / 1) (#250)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:37:59 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
YES I'M TALKING TO IT RIGHT NOW (5.00 / 2) (#288)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 07:27:14 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Once again, you couldn't be more wrong. (5.00 / 2) (#284)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 07:21:22 PM EST

It's about quality, not quantity :)

Just out of interest: do you have a girlfriend, yourself? Or indeed, a boyfriend?

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

I don't know about Syn, but I've already told you. (5.00 / 2) (#202)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:30:10 PM EST

.. what the reason is that I'm posting about how much of a ganker troll you are. It's for posterity--the good of people who might not be aware of you. The best thing to do about a troll like you in our midst is to stand there and point you out, and in so doing, save others from the effort of seeing through the pseudo-normal posts and stories you use to falsely bolster your credibility.


[ Parent ]
wow (none / 1) (#220)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:00:14 PM EST

i am an admitted troll

by my own words

in the post at this top of the thread

and you think you are doing kuro5hin a service by pointing out that i am a troll?

do you even have the vaguest conception of what a ridiculous pathetic position you are putting yourself into?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Nah.. I'm pointing out something else.. (5.00 / 2) (#225)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:07:13 PM EST

..and that is the fact that you are destructive, not constructive, and that people like you aren't necessary for the function of a healthy Kuro5hin.

Dumbass.


[ Parent ]

this is how you treat trolls (none / 1) (#228)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:09:55 PM EST

you ignore them

because, idiot, if you do what you are doing now, you stoop to their level

you are a troll now

dude, your behavior here is called trolling

and yet you somehow say you are proving my behavior is destructive... by acting just like me

hypocrisy- do you understand what that is?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

No, you're still wrong. What a surprise. (5.00 / 2) (#234)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:17:31 PM EST

And I'm glad to force you to make an ass of yourself, which you're still doing. What a surprise!


[ Parent ]
i am an ass (none / 1) (#241)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:26:54 PM EST

i am a huge ass

time and again: what are you telling me i have not already admitted a thousand times before you ever showed up?

AND DO YOU UNDERSTAND HYPOCRISY?????????

when you accuse someone of acting a certain way, WHEN YOU ACT THE SAME WAY????????????

this is hilarious!

;-)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Admit the statement. (5.00 / 2) (#256)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:44:25 PM EST

What, did you forget the note of just a few minutes ago?

Admit the statement. Write it out, and post it. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Admit it, if you're so self-assured in your troll-dom.


[ Parent ]

i admit nothing to a hypocrit (none / 1) (#261)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:50:18 PM EST

but i do make a nice giant thread fart

for "posterity" (ha!)

to prove what a hypocrit you are

i caught one

i caught an evil hypocrit

i shone a spotlight on his evil behavior

and her eit is, for the world to see, a giant fucking thread fart

your trapped like a fucking spider

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You already have. (5.00 / 2) (#272)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:57:50 PM EST

Said you, "i admit to everything in the original post."

And, since one of the original posts (original to this one) was the statement I wrote out for you, I interpret that to mean you've admitted you are wrong.

Case closed, end of story. Thanks for playing.


[ Parent ]

indeed (none / 1) (#274)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 05:01:03 PM EST

thanks for playing

if i ever run across you again, i need only refer to this giant thread fart

anyone with the vaguest kindergarten level understanding of hypocrisy will know what you are

dude, you have to be the biggest loser i have met here


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Try looking in the mirror. (5.00 / 2) (#287)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 07:26:42 PM EST

All you need is a mirror and you'll meet a real hypocrit. But you just keep frothing, I'm enjoying reading it.

No, really.. I insist. Keep on shouting out that one word over and over, and maybe one day it'll be true for you. Until then, while you're sane enough to comprehend when you're beaten, I'll be sitting here laughing at you.


[ Parent ]

Sure we can win.. (5.00 / 2) (#199)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:25:50 PM EST

..we're not talking about the "you" who whacks himself off in the dark under your covers to the poster of GWB on your ceiling.

We're talking about the "you" that you present to us here, and that *is* something we're quite capable of judging and making fun of.

As a troll, you're not very good, are you?


[ Parent ]

i can out troll you (none / 1) (#201)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:29:44 PM EST

fer sure

if you make me the issue, you lose, simple as that

you define yourself by your actions

all of these comments are secondary to your uninvited attack on me, so i am defending myself from you

so what is the definition of what is going on here?

i am defending myself, and you are attacking me

if that does not sound reasonable, look up the thread son, who's name appears first?

you were uninvited to talk about me

you attacked me

so right now, you are defining yourself like synaesthesia: my little bitch following me around, nipping at my heels

suit yourself ;-)

xoxoxoxoxoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Nah.. (5.00 / 2) (#213)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:49:39 PM EST

You're the one putting in the effort now. Not I. Eventually you'll come to realize that your efforts are better spent elsewhere, doing something constructive, and you'll stop being such a jackass here.


[ Parent ]
do you understand hypocrisy? (nt) (none / 1) (#217)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:51:27 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Do you understand gradeschool grammar? (5.00 / 2) (#223)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:06:02 PM EST



[ Parent ]
yes i do (none / 1) (#242)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:27:45 PM EST

look at a story of mine

do you understand hypocrisy?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Not going to waste my time stalking you.. (5.00 / 2) (#254)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:43:09 PM EST

..even though you've apparently done the same thing to me. What's important is the parent post of this thread, not your stories. What, good behaviour in the past somehow justifies your antisocial behaviour now?


[ Parent ]
keep it up!!!!!! (none / 1) (#259)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:48:40 PM EST

keep it growing hypocrit!!!!!!!!!!!!

i admit to everything in the orignial post

and you admit to your hypocrisy here

keep posting, keep repsonding, keep growing this giant fucking thread

in which I PROVE TO BE EXACTLY WHAT I SAID I WAS

AND YOU PROVE TO BE EXACTLY THE SAME AS ME

HHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

HHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

He admits it!! (5.00 / 2) (#270)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:56:18 PM EST

Sweet. I win--again!

That's what..  three major victories for me now in this thread? You go up on my trophy wall.

If it takes a certain flamage to draw you out, than so be it, I flame you like I might cauterize a wound. I see nothing wrong with treating you as roughly as is necessary to make you see your own folly.


[ Parent ]

amazing (none / 1) (#273)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:59:13 PM EST

what are you doing that is not everything you object to in me?

HYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRIT HYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRIT HYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRIT HYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRIT HYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRIT HYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRIT HYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRIT HYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRIT HYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRITHYPOCRIT


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

He has exhausted his vocabulary, apparently.. (5.00 / 2) (#286)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 07:24:58 PM EST

So is there a reason why you seem incapable of arguing above the level of a two-year-old throwing a temper tantrum?

I do want to help, but if you can't converse on an adult level, there's little I can do.


[ Parent ]

I never said that.. (5.00 / 2) (#196)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:22:45 PM EST

..and I still win.

[ Parent ]
kindergarten level logic (nt) (none / 1) (#198)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:25:21 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Quiet you! :-) (5.00 / 2) (#195)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:21:45 PM EST

I'll not have you bolstering my trolly victim.

[ Parent ]
you can't out troll a bigger troll (none / 1) (#200)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:26:20 PM EST

i can smack you around until the sun goes down

just look at my fanboy synaesthesia if you don't believe me

lol


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Hrm.. looks like it's the other way around.. (5.00 / 2) (#204)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:35:44 PM EST

Looks a lot like other people are smacking you around, you're incapable of realizing who is the superior manipulator, and are laughably characterizing someone who obviously thinks you're an idiot as your "fanboy."

Talk about deluded..


[ Parent ]

let's reduce things here (none / 1) (#207)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:40:04 PM EST

i am saying i am a troll

i am saying you are a troll

so far so good right?

i have to cue you in on synaesthesia, you are new at this:

the guy posts under like almost every thread of mine

following me around

he is a troll, fer sure, but do you not agree that is behavior is of a different order?

i don't follow him around

our behavior is different

i call it sycophant, fan boy

and you run the danger of becoming someone like him, as defining yourself like he defines his existence here on kuro5hin

there really is no need to react negatively i have already admitted of everything you accused me of long before you accused me

but if you are going to attack me, i am going to defend myself

and making me the issue, as opposed to the actual issues, is your action, not mine

which moves you in the same behavior camp as synaesthesia: my fanboys

how weird

;-P


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Not so far so good.. (5.00 / 2) (#211)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:48:23 PM EST

..I hadn't realized how many mistakes one person can make in a single note until I began reading yours.

I am not a troll. I am obviously not a troll, or at least, not a troll as you understand the term. I might be a troll troll... for people like yourself, that means that I draw out trolls, especially stupid trolls like you, like the poison in a wound. I pull people like you into the open, like a deep sliver, and point you out for who you are.

I wouldn't consider him a fanboy, nor a sycophant. Rather, I would simply consider him more diligent than I'll end up being. Good on him, I say.


[ Parent ]

you're a troll (none / 1) (#214)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:50:57 PM EST

you're in a thread with an admitted troll arguing about him

and you call me stupid

do you understand the concept of hypocrisy?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I serve posterity.. (5.00 / 2) (#221)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:01:45 PM EST

..you simply serve yourself.

Big difference.


[ Parent ]

yes i serve myself! (none / 1) (#224)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:06:37 PM EST

WE ALL DO

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TRYING TYO PROVE I HAVE NOT ALREADY ADMITTED TO 1,000X BEFORE YOU EVER SHOWED UP???!!!

and you serve posterity?

let me get this straight: you are attempting to make a giant wankfest with this thread with me to do what?

prove i am a troll?

am i right so far?

now, at the top of this thread, is a post, in which, quite adamantly and profusely, i admit to being a troll

so, sir, what posterity are you serving that is not already long in existence long before you showed up?

sir, you are on a river, building the hoover dam, and a guy walks up to you and says to you "what are you doing"

and you say "i am building the hoover dam"

and the man turns around to look at... the hoover dam, already there

exactly what the fuck is your point!

you hate me! we know that! who cares! ;-P


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Here's what I want you to admit.. (5.00 / 2) (#232)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:16:27 PM EST

Say the following and I'll stop bugging you in this thread:

"I, circletimessquare, regardless of my story contributions to Kuro5hin, do no good whatsoever by affecting myself as a troll, as a violent verbal abuser. My rant wherein I characterize my antisocial behaviour as necessary and healthy for the Kuro5hin community is utter bunk, and everyone should know it."

Admit to this, and I'll stop responding to this thread.


[ Parent ]

on and on (none / 1) (#237)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:24:02 PM EST

look at your quote

now look at your behavior here

tell me why those words do not apply to yourself as well

so here we go:

"I, circletimessquare, regardless of my story contributions to Kuro5hin, do good when i posted about the value of trolls above, since, with a 4.20 out of 20 ratings, a demonstrable part of kuro5hin agrees with me heartily. I am not a violent verbal abuser, but i know someone who is. My rant wherein I characterize my social behaviour as necessary, and different from antisocial behavior, and healthy for the Kuro5hin community is dead on, and by how my comment was posted, most everyone knows it, except the hypocrits."

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I knew you couldn't do it.. (5.00 / 2) (#246)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:33:31 PM EST

..but at least now you can't claim ignorance when you exclaim loudly that you don't know why we're doing what we're doing.

Glad to have educated you, fool. I'm happy to be your teacher today.

I find it amusing that you attempt to take the moral high ground with regards to abusive behaviour. After all, didn't you post earlier that in a "real" community, they'd kick you out for being too loud, too obnoxious, and too violent?

Let's get the quote out, shall we?

"if kuro5hin were a real, live community, i would get quickly arrested and kicked out for loud, unruly, and violent behavior"

Well isn't that lovely? It'd be fun to see you try to be violent.. it's also fun to see you point the finger at me, when all I've been doing is calling you simple typed names. Aren't you the one claiming you are violent in the real world?

BTW: the moment you do make that statement, I'll stop bugging you in this manner. Really.


[ Parent ]

you are a hypocrit (none / 1) (#249)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:36:35 PM EST

i admit to what i am

you act just like me to prove what i am is wrong

how does that work?

and somehow you are superior to me

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT HYPOCRISY IS?????????????????

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You're not admitting it.. (5.00 / 2) (#267)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:53:55 PM EST

..you twisted the statement into something it wasn't, because you're too prideful to admit you were wrong.

Admit you were wrong, be a man instead of the petulant child you're acting like, and admit that anti-social behaviour (especially behaviour suggesting you are violent in the real-world) is *not* constructive in a community.


[ Parent ]

dude! (none / 1) (#271)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:57:10 PM EST

YOU ACT JUST LIKE ME

YOU ADMIT WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE

A HYPOCRIT

i am not going to admit to anything to a hypocrit!

this huge fucking thread= posterity record of your hypocrisy

i don't think you understand that!

HAHAHAHAHAHA

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Correction: I'm not frothing. (5.00 / 2) (#285)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 07:23:55 PM EST

But I find it amusing that you are.

Your posts have degenerated to the point where you are hysterically laughing like an infant high on cough syrup, tossing out the same word over and over, as though by sheer force of will you will make your opponents disappear.

Have you any regard for your own image? Any regard whatsoever? Do you ever read your own posts before posting them?

I don't speak in ALL CAPS AS YOU SEEM TO ENJOY DOING. I've specifically stated that I don't hate you, that I'm simply trying to help you, and all you come back with is blind rage. My, you're a touchy individual. Is there something behind that perhaps?

If I read through your stories, am I going to be able to pick out a pattern? Something I can latch onto and ride down the black webbing you call your heart?

But no, that would be too cruel, too dastardly, too utterly wasteful of perfectly good effort.

You've lost. The moment you started in with the VIRTUAL YELLING, you lost. I suppose it's not surprising, considering how much of a loser you keep presenting yourself to be, but really--that's why I want to help you.

Help me help you! It just takes a first step in the right direction, and since you've already taken that step in an earlier post, where you admit that your behaviour is destructive and NOT constructive, I have to say that all it takes is your own forward momentum.

Now, clearly, spell it out: tell us how your implication of real-world violence is, in fact, wrong and does *not* help the community.

Go on, I'll laud you for it. Watch and see.


[ Parent ]

Just a humble observation: (5.00 / 2) (#173)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 09:38:53 AM EST

[parent] YOU are making me the issue NOT ME

[top level] as a troll, i say

[parent] and who made me the issue again? YOU DID FOOL

[top level] i am honest: i am a troll

[parent] LOOK AT THE FUCKING THREAD FOOL

[top level] i submit that us trolls give life and humanity to a community

[parent] YOU MADE ME THE FUCKING ISSUE FOOL NOT ME YOU STUPID FUCK

because anyone else reading this character sees this

You big yourself up

you attack me

He shoots you down in flames

i defend myself

So you revert to the only thing you seem to be able to do these days: crying "sycophant!"

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

hey sudog (none / 1) (#174)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 12:39:52 PM EST

do you see what i mean by sycophants following me around?

what is it with you people

you are uninvited, you follow my comments around, and you make me the issue

what povery of character and personality moves people to do this?

this is how you react to me: you ignore me: that is the superior reaction, just ask kraant in the comment above this one

99% of people here on kuro5hin get this concept, you 2 clearly do not

hatred of me is not superior than ignoring me, in fact your hatred of me is quite the inferior reaction, it leads to more infamy for me

what in gods name prevents you sycophants from wrapping your mind around this concept?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Hey sudog (5.00 / 2) (#176)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 12:58:50 PM EST

Do you see what I mean about how the only thing circletimessquare can do is vainly to call "sycophant"?!

BTW do you have any idea why he perceives pity as hatred?


Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

sycophant=you (none / 1) (#180)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 01:20:55 PM EST

someone who follows someone around, a parasite

we have been over this many times though before, haven't we synaesthesia?

you follow me around, is that not true?

pray tell, what is the correct term for someone who follows someone around, and continually attacks their personality?

i would like to hear you explain your behavior towards me?

it seems to me that you are a sycophant, someone with a poverty of character and a need to latch themselves parasitically onto others due to their psychological deficiencies

but please, by all means, educate me as to how i should properly understand your behavior towards me, please, by all means, i would love to hear your understanding of what you think is going on here as you follow me around, from thread to thread, and attack me personally

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I've already explained it to you (5.00 / 2) (#184)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 02:13:35 PM EST

Time and time again.

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]
we are all narcissists honey (none / 1) (#187)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 02:49:55 PM EST

and my posts are not ill-conceived, says kuro5hin and the way they vote on my posts, not according to me, or according to you

exactly why do you care so much about me again?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Mmmm hmmm (5.00 / 2) (#188)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 02:52:24 PM EST

But my posts are considerably better than yours, says kuro5hin and the way they vote on my posts, not according to me, or according to you.

Exactly why do you care so much about me again?

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

i don't care about you (none / 1) (#190)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:00:00 PM EST

you follow me around

is that an incorrect statement?

"But my posts are considerably better than yours, says kuro5hin and the way they vote on my posts, not according to me, or according to you."

http://www.kuro5hin.org/user/synaesthesia/stories

0 stories

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Is that an incorrect statement? (5.00 / 2) (#192)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:13:40 PM EST

Yes. I've already explained this to you, time and time again.

Some of your stories are pretty good. Your "Doctor Jekyl" is plenty more coherent than "mr hyde". But if I had written any stories, they might be better. You have no idea, so let's just stick to what we can measure, shall we? Seeing as how you were talking about comment ratings when you mentioned peer review.

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

show me some of these much vaunted comments (none / 1) (#194)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:19:14 PM EST

"But if I had written any stories, they might be better. You have no idea, so let's just stick to what we can measure, shall we?"

who we are is what we do

i have nothing to defend and explain, my record speaks for itself

you have squat

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Are you a trusted user? (5.00 / 2) (#206)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:37:13 PM EST

If so, zero this comment.

If not, I think you'll find that Kuro5hin thinks more highly of me than it does of you.

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

i was (none / 1) (#210)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:45:03 PM EST

i keep getting it and then losing it in threads like this

you should be careful, if you wish to keep it you will lose it with this sort of trollish behavior

i say i am a better member of the community than you by my story output

that's a contribution to the community

prove you contribute as much as i do

because it seems to me your only contribution seems to be to attack me

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

And a worthy contribution that is! (5.00 / 2) (#215)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:50:59 PM EST



[ Parent ]
yes, it is a worthy contribution (none / 1) (#219)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:57:57 PM EST

see the stories i have written?

http://www.kuro5hin.org/user/circletimessquare/stories

8 stories since january

each one was voted up by kuro5hin

so when i say my stories are worthy, i am going on the word of kuro5hin, that means something

and you?

http://www.kuro5hin.org/user/sudog/stories

1 story almost a year ago

so in the same time span, i have given more to kuro5hin than you have

says kuro5hin, not me

frankly, i am more worthy in the eyes of kuro5hin than you ;-)

xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

oooOOOoooo.. the troll speaks.. (5.00 / 2) (#222)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:05:20 PM EST

You keep on thinking that..  and if your stories are appreciated for something then that's great. I never said your stories were bunk. I'm saying *you* are bunk, you self-styled fashionboy troll wannabe.

Give up the wannabe troll "style". You're no good at it.


[ Parent ]

i am a troll (none / 1) (#227)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:08:11 PM EST

proof?

this thread with you and synaesthesia

ask somebody else here, kraant for example, and if this is not proof of trolling, i don't know what the hell is

i have been trolling here for eons

why do you show up here and somehow think otherwise?

lol

this is fun ;-P

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Why do you think you're worth spit? (5.00 / 2) (#230)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:13:39 PM EST

Your little rant about how *necessary* you are, how *vital* you are, how *important* accident-victim-like postings like yours are, is precisely the reason why you're a complete ass.

Really, you can't see the logical inconsistencies in your own posts? How pathetic is that?


[ Parent ]

apparently (none / 1) (#233)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:16:40 PM EST

i don't need to think of myself very highly

i have to do that for me

since you have the need to respond to my every post

sir: do you understand the concept of hypocrisy?

do you understand the concept?

lol

i am enjoying this ;-)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You still don't speak English do you? (5.00 / 2) (#235)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:20:00 PM EST

"i don't need to think of myself very highly

i have to do that for me"

Wow. Your towering intellect and attention to detail astound even me. That was sarcasm, in case you missed it.


[ Parent ]

my grammar sucks (none / 1) (#243)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:28:51 PM EST

i am not paying attention to what i am writing

gee, who knows why

lol

;-)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Oh, Me! Me! (5.00 / 2) (#253)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:41:40 PM EST

.. because you're a loser?

.. because you have no clue on how to end this without making yourself look like more of a loser than you already are?

.. because you have no self-worth and too much self-image?

.. because you are incapable of forming coherent replies in the time you've decided to take to respond to us here?

.. because the shit that exits my ass in the afternoons is smarter than you are?


[ Parent ]

keep it up hypocrit!!!!!!!!!!! (none / 1) (#258)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:46:29 PM EST

keep growing this thread

C'MON MORON!!!!!!!

you'll never show your face here again after this!!!!!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

look at this huge fucking monstrosity!!!!!!!!!

what a fucking hypocrit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

god i LOVE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i caught a huge fucking hypocrit today!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

suck it!

YOU LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

*grin* With each passing breath... (5.00 / 2) (#266)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:52:23 PM EST

...you make yourself more my slave.

Well? Admit that your antisocial comments were just that. Admit it, and I'll leave you alone, and won't build my presence here into the sole purpose of countering your idiocy.


[ Parent ]

HEY FOLKS!!!!!!!! READ THE ABOVE!!!!!!!!!! (none / 1) (#269)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:55:20 PM EST

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Why dumbass doesn't know the meaning... (5.00 / 2) (#283)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 07:17:24 PM EST

...of the word "hypocrit."

I'll keep it short, since you have by now been so thoroughly trolled and worked over (you now state you hate us--pretty strong word in any context) that I doubt you're even under your own control anymore.

The reason is simple: from underneath the veil of your own hypocrisy, you froth out the word that far more aptly applies to yourself.

Syn has done a better job than I have of collating the inconsistencies and *hypocrisy* between your various posts *JUST IN THIS THREAD* than I have.

I shudder to think what a titanic effort it would be to do the job globally.


[ Parent ]

I'm quite practised at it now :) (5.00 / 2) (#292)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 07:45:49 PM EST

But I take my hat off to you; you had him sussed in your first response and you're still right on the button.

Unfortunately I fear there will always be enough trolls around here (perhaps crapflooders is a more appropriate term) to bolster his twisted self-opinion.

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

Right then (5.00 / 2) (#216)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:51:26 PM EST

i say i am a better member of the community than you by my story output

Well then, I say I am a better member of the community than you by my use of capital letters and punctuation to reduce eye fatigue.

Neither is particularly relevant anyway: in a head-to-head debate, you've never come out on top.

Anyway: which part of STFUYHBA do you not understand?


Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

i do not have to justify myself to you (none / 1) (#218)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:53:51 PM EST

i have to justify myself to kuro5hin

and i think i do a better job than you do, by the existence of my well-received stories

you keep talking about how you are winning some sort of debate

there is no winning in this circlejerk my friend, what we are doing right now is not a debate

lol

clueless and hypocritical


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

If you were truly 'justified' to Kuro5hin... (5.00 / 2) (#226)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:07:18 PM EST

...then you'd have trusted user status.

Why do you think trusted user status is not linked to the stories you've written?

When I talk about winning debates with you, I'm not talking about this debate. I'm talking about every debate we've ever had.

Oh and BTW, again: Shut The Fuck Up You Have Been Anti-trolled.


Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

dude (none / 1) (#231)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:14:08 PM EST

you have trusted user status

clapclap, good for you

i have written lots of frotn page stories

clapclap, good for me

i believe that my contribution is superior to your trusted user status to the health of the  community

and you are not anti-trolling me, you are behaving like me, you are a troll

do you understand the concept?

if you used your trusted user-status like you are supposed to, you would zero rate me and move on

but you don't

so either you think i have something worthy to say, or you don't deserve your trusted user status, because you are not applying it as you should: to clean the site of trolls

instead, you act like me

do you understand the concept of hypocrisy?

the only antitroll is a zero or to ignore me

you are about as far from that a spossible

you are a troll, everything you think about me negatively, aplies to you, as anyone els elooking at this circlejerk thread would agree

enjoy your status

it won't last for long if you keep behaving like this

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

So funny (5.00 / 2) (#260)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:49:29 PM EST

the only antitroll is a zero or to ignore me

Call it meta-trolling, then, if you like.

you are a troll, everything you think about me negatively, aplies to you, as anyone els elooking at this circlejerk thread would agree

No, the main thing I think about you negatively is that you are completely fucking irrational. Anyone doubting this can look at some of our previous debates.

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

dude you're just like me (none / 1) (#265)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:52:13 PM EST

anyone can see it

you're a hypocrit

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Kettle, meet pot. (5.00 / 2) (#275)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 05:01:12 PM EST



[ Parent ]
now you begin to understand (nt) (none / 1) (#279)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 05:09:29 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I understand you're an asshat.. (5.00 / 2) (#291)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 07:37:24 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Excellent (5.00 / 2) (#276)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 05:02:19 PM EST

Now I have yet another link with which I can demonstrate your aptitude for desperately flailing in a debate.

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]
i am a troll (none / 1) (#278)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 05:09:07 PM EST

i admit to it

you are a troll

but somehow, you say you are not

there is debate here friend, what is going on in this thread fart is not a debate

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Stop making stuff up (5.00 / 2) (#281)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 06:22:30 PM EST

but somehow, you say you are not

When did I ever say that? What I said was that you are not a troll.

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

Yes.. sadly. (5.00 / 2) (#238)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:24:27 PM EST

Yes, I see it. He must perceive what we're doing to him as some kind irrational response. I'm sure if he understood where we were coming from--and I mean really understood--then he wouldn't feign such complete ignorance.

After all, consider: he admits he's a troll, but claims as justification that he's in some way "necessary" to keep the community healthy. At the same time, he displays no ability whatsoever to grasp our point of view. At all.

I doubt he is capable of such deception, and so it comes back to his constant whining as though he were feeling the part of the victim in this thread. In a way, it just makes me pity him all the more. I certainly don't hate him at any rate.


[ Parent ]

you are a hypocrit (none / 1) (#245)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:32:10 PM EST

you act just like me

you have nothing to teach me about my behavior

and i hate you

i hate hypocrisy

and this giant thread is a beacon, a permanent record, of your hypocrisy ;-)

and kuro5hin, with a 4.20 out of 20 ratings, agrees with me ;-)

i don't need you two to tell me anything, i haave more approval in that rating than any of this hypocrisy here

and i enjoy making asses of hypocrits

just look at this thread

i admit what i am, and act like it

while you two attack me for what i am

and prove you are jus tlike me

pathetic, hilarious, funny ;-)

so i win!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

xoxoxoxooxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Funny guy! (5.00 / 2) (#251)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:39:04 PM EST

"and i hate you"

And, ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner! In fact, just a moment ago, I was posting that I have no hatred for this self-aggrandizing egotistical troll, just pity, and he comes up with this!

*clap clap clap*

Thank you, thank you. It looks like the troll has been trolled, beaten at his own game by simple determination and poise. If I have evoked hatred in my opponent, I step inexorably forward towards the day when I excise this festering sore, this verbal blight, this destroyer of civility.


[ Parent ]

i do hate you (none / 1) (#255)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:44:12 PM EST

you are a hypocrit

i despise hypocrisy

more evil has been done in the name of hypocrisy, by little proud hypocrits like yourself, throughout human history, than by probably anything else

i win dude

here is your posterity

this thread

in which you prove to be just like me

you=hypocrit

here in black and white

forever

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

this is fucking great!

i caught a hypocrit and shoved a big giant floodlight on him!!!!!!!!!!!

HHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEE

you lose buddy!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

LOOK AT THIS HUGE FUCKING THREAD MORON

YOU LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

*snicker* Lookit him foam! (5.00 / 2) (#262)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:50:27 PM EST

I am deriving great amusement from you. In case you missed it before, I'll state it again:

I don't hate you. I never have and I probably never will. You are simply a wayward child I am trying to lead back to the path. You are the lost puppy, barking and biting the people who are trying to help you out of concern for your mental health and well-being.

It's true, you're festering in a wound like a virulent strain of bacteria, but I believe you do mean well. You just aren't aware that proudly claiming you would be physically violent in a real-world Kuro5hin is wrong. I aim to correct that concept on that puny little homonid brain of yours.

Eventually.

Admit the statement! Admit that your form of verbal harm is damaging, and not constructive! Admit it, pathetic troll!


[ Parent ]

KEEP IT UP HYPOCRIT (none / 1) (#264)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:51:27 PM EST

c'mon grow it LARGER LARGER LARGER

look at you

i'm so proud of you you little hypocrit

the troll of year award goes to you ;-)

xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

circletimessquare TRANSLATING MACHINE (5.00 / 2) (#290)
by sudog on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 07:33:23 PM EST

What he says: "froth froth froth, moan moan moan, piss piss piss, froth froth froth, hypocrit, sycophant fanboy, froth gurgle froth."

What he means: Secretly he realizes he is mentally incapable of rational discourse, that he is out-classed by two superior manipulators, and so he's reverting to infantile all-caps babbling. He's hoping that the people out there won't recognize him for an idiot, and so he'll point and make illogical claims in a thread that's too convoluted for anyone to make sense of, and hope he's not called on it when he posts in another forum. He'll also reply to every post in the thread in an attempt to bury the truth (that he's a moron) amongst so much rubbish no-one will find the posts where he's not frothing.

The truth: His frothing is all the evidence someone needs to mentally convict him of simple-minded stupidity.


[ Parent ]

Filed under "W" for "Whatever" (3.00 / 2) (#160)
by synaesthesia on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 05:54:42 PM EST

At least the guys that flew their planes into the WTC were passionate about what they did, eh?

Oh! The humanity!

better a virtuous troll than a well-behaved evil hypocrite, i say

You spout off about making the world a better place ("through democracy"), and then you deliberately set out to do the opposite. Better a well-behaved, virtuous debater than a hypocritical self-styled troll, I say. But you're not even a troll; you just can't string together an argument to save your life.


Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

currently (none / 1) (#162)
by circletimessquare on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 06:07:31 PM EST

this comment is rated 4.20 out of 20 ratings

democratically speaking, your opinion of my words are in the minority

but i don't need a bell curve spread of opinions about my words to make the obvious observation that you are on the fringe of observational abilities and are unreliable in that regard to pass judgment on a whole range of issues

you're simply the charter sycophant in my fan club, following me around

but we've been over this before, haven't we slime?

lol ;-)

xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You must be very proud (5.00 / 2) (#171)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 09:25:38 AM EST

He craves it here; here craves it there; circletimesquare craves it everywhere!

Other than that... what he said.


Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

i crave a number of things (none / 1) (#182)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 01:24:51 PM EST

apparently, by the way you follow me around, you crave me

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I do crave a coherent answer from you (5.00 / 2) (#236)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:20:53 PM EST

Apparently, I'm not going to get one, but for the time being I'll keep trying.

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]
coherency: (none / 1) (#244)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:29:17 PM EST

you are a hypocrit


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
No... (5.00 / 2) (#263)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 04:51:14 PM EST

...that's just name-calling, unless you've got something to back it up with.

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]
hypocrisy (none / 1) (#277)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 05:07:06 PM EST

criticizing a behavior while acting the same way

it's not name calling, it's a judgment call based on your behavior

am i wrong?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Of course you're wrong, completely and utterly (5.00 / 2) (#282)
by synaesthesia on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 06:28:20 PM EST

Not about the definition of hypocrisy, but about its applicability to me in this situation.

criticizing a behavior while acting the same way

Tell me then. In what way am I acting like you, that I am also criticising?

Hint: I am not criticising you for continuing to reply to my posts. (One of the two of us is a hypocrite, but it's not me.)

Sausages or cheese?
[ Parent ]

Eh, k5 is a non-starter (3.50 / 8) (#78)
by delmoi on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 08:24:37 PM EST

Kuro5hin's 'open everything' system has already lead to all kinds of dynamics, for a long time. I doubt you could do much to change it, since moderation is very common already (you'd just be a drop in the bucket). Just go read the diary section sometime :P

It might be intresting to see the top modded users, but not really.
--
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
I've rated your comment... (2.00 / 3) (#96)
by xutopia on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 02:20:04 AM EST

To date I see that I am the only member that has given you a rating for your post. The article suggests that if we can be enough to rate and moderate positively we could perhaps make this place the best there is. I'm not convinced of this yet. I'm certain from the dynamics I've seen to date that it isn't as easy on K5 as it was on tek-tips to change the prevailing culture. The only way to see is to actually do an experiment, but this would require commitment on people's part.

[ Parent ]
what about game theory? (3.44 / 9) (#84)
by cbraga on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 10:36:16 PM EST

You only mentioned it in passing, without telling, or hinting at, how this wonderful knowledge made you two shoot to the top of the charts. Are we supposed to stand in awe at your marvelous brains to which the connection between your little game and this great theory is so obvious it warrants no mention?

ESC[78;89;13p ESC[110;121;13p
What would you have wanted instead? (2.16 / 6) (#95)
by xutopia on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 02:08:06 AM EST

I did spend an all nighter trying to make this story as easy to understand as possible. I sometimes don't understand myself. I'm not a pro writer but I enjoyed the positive feedback I had from a plethora of K5 users.

It is really hard to please everyone as one individual told me the story would be more fun stripped of all the GT. A few others told me it would be interesting to have more in-depth and hardcore GT content. Some told me they didn't understand much of what I meant. Your criticism however wasn't very constructive at all.

I'd prefer if in the future you could offer more appropriate feedback. For example something you could have told me is what you would have done to make the story better. Something else would be to tell the world what GT was really involved so that they don't miss out on something you believe was important but I omitted. Are you certain your last comment is the best you could possibly give to the users of K5?

[ Parent ]

you're getting bitter already? (none / 1) (#115)
by speek on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 11:11:06 AM EST

Wouldn't it be better to stay positive at all times? Rather than berate him for his post, you could have either ignored it or tried to give more info on GT (and solicited him to define what exactly he wanted to know).

Or, is this a part of your strategy I don't understand? Belittle the unconstructive criticizers in hopes they go away?

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
[ Parent ]

That wasn't berating! :-) (2.00 / 4) (#120)
by xutopia on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 12:20:03 PM EST

I may have been less diplomatic than I should have been. My intent was certainly not to berate or belittle cbraga but to express my disapointement. I hope he'll realize and not hurt my feelings again. If my comments encourage bad behavior though I'll just have to go Gandhi on him! ;-)

[ Parent ]
you must know (3.00 / 3) (#125)
by speek on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 02:09:11 PM EST

You will get very bad responses from doing something as condescending as expressing disappointment.

Surely, you could do better! ;-)

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
[ Parent ]

Indeed (none / 1) (#126)
by cbraga on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 02:14:29 PM EST

Let's try this:

Belittle? How very presuming of you.

All in good fun, of course.

ESC[78;89;13p ESC[110;121;13p
[ Parent ]

The connection isn't explicit but it exists (none / 1) (#117)
by cribeiro on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 11:34:04 AM EST

I think that the author could have mad an effort to explicitly talk about GT. It would have greatly enhanced the article.

I know a little bit about GT, and the best reference that I can give for everyone else is about a little game called 'Prisioner's Dilemma'. This game is a good playground for competitive strategies, and the name 'tit-for-tat' is used to describe a class of strategies for competition that involve retaliation - if someone cheats on you, you hit back - and cooperation - if someones cooperate with you, you cooperate with him.

I suggest a Google on research on this topic, in particular to the works of Axelrod (can't remember his first name now), that was the one who started the current line of research on this topic. It's a very interesting reading.

[ Parent ]

K5 game theory and social engineering du jour (4.10 / 10) (#116)
by Entendre Entendre on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 11:14:14 AM EST

When life hands you lemons, make lemonade.

When life hands you drduck, make some professorial Peking duck.

If you see a post that drduck has rated at 1 (pardon my redundancy), rate it 5. People will cheer up, and they will rate your drduck-defiled posts to 5. This will add cheer to your day, closing the positive-feedback loop (pun intended) and continuing the cycle of goodness.

Anyhow, if enough users implement this plan with sufficient vigor, I predict a spontaneous K5 group hug within 11.6 days.

--
Reduce firearm violence: aim carefully.

re: drduck (3.25 / 3) (#135)
by kpaul on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 04:52:59 PM EST

i've noticed he gives higher than 1s. also, he actually voted +1sp for at least one of my stories.

there's more to drduck than meets the eye, me thinks.


2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]

re:drduck (2.75 / 3) (#137)
by Prophet themusicgod1 on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 05:21:19 PM EST

i never really noticed him before -- and honestly i can see how all the 1's he's given me would be given. what is his perogative? does he only rate the negative comments and not positive? and what's wrong with that?
"I suspect the best way to deal with procrastination is to put off the procrastination itself until later. I've been meaning to try this, but haven't gotten around to it yet."swr
[ Parent ]
data point (3.00 / 3) (#143)
by Entendre Entendre on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 11:26:06 PM EST

How negative is this?

--
Reduce firearm violence: aim carefully.
[ Parent ]

questionable. still, it's one ranking. (none / 1) (#157)
by Prophet themusicgod1 on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 12:39:49 PM EST

drduck has 1'ed many of my comments, as well. but each one he has, has had something wrong with it. its higher standards. perhaps you need to think harder, and he will rank you harder.
"I suspect the best way to deal with procrastination is to put off the procrastination itself until later. I've been meaning to try this, but haven't gotten around to it yet."swr
[ Parent ]
A bot (none / 1) (#296)
by QuickFox on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 07:33:39 AM EST

It seems to me that drduck is a bot handing out random ratings.

Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fi
[ Parent ]
why then (none / 1) (#298)
by Prophet themusicgod1 on Fri Oct 03, 2003 at 04:58:00 AM EST

does he often vote stories up, or comments 5 / 4 (see his profile) ?
"I suspect the best way to deal with procrastination is to put off the procrastination itself until later. I've been meaning to try this, but haven't gotten around to it yet."swr
[ Parent ]
Why not? (none / 1) (#302)
by QuickFox on Sat Oct 04, 2003 at 09:09:25 PM EST

Why then does he often vote stories up,

I don't have any opinion on drduck's story votes. They could be random by bot or manual.

or comments 5 / 4 (see his profile) ?

Random includes all possible scores from 1 through 5.

Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fi
[ Parent ]

Parallels with successful Open Source projects (4.54 / 11) (#118)
by cribeiro on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 12:01:06 PM EST

I can see some parallels between your experiment and the dynamics of the most successful Open Source projects. Most of these projects tend to gravitate around strong leaders that stablish themselves based on two attributes: first, competence; and second, a particular mix of cooperation and competition. The second trait is important to keep the projects alive against the competition, while on the other hand keeping everyone marching together.

On a greater scale - talking about generic human groups - the experiment also shows why do some groups are more successful than others, and why these groups tend to gravitate around their leaders. Maybe that's because of the particular type of cooperation that evolves between the leader(s) and the rest of the participants. It seems that the leader has to have two attributes for success:

  • He has to be good at something. Being the 'real deal' is important at some level.
  • He has to play though, but nice. In other words... tit-for-tat. Being ready to cooperate and acknowledge other's efforts, but also quick to penalize cheaters.
Of course, cheaters to exist and sometimes are really successful. However, there may be some parallels with the dynamics of cooperation that can explain why do cheaters sometimes become strong leaders (even when don't seem to know a dim about anything). Maybe cheaters developed their own 'tit-for-tat' strategy to overcome their limitations. It's another things to explore on this topic.

Why cheaters are still successfull (5.00 / 2) (#148)
by Quietti on Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 05:28:55 AM EST

It's only a partial answer, of course, but I'll venture this much:

Cheaters are good at leveraging the knowledge and skills of the most efficient elements on their team, then fleshing it out and making a nice PowerPoint about it... which will please other people who got up the ladder doing the same thing, a few years ago. In other words, their bosses will recognize the same "leadership" skills they have been using when they were junior managers, to get results from their team and look good to upper management.

Since the most efficient elements often happen to be the most focused on doing a good job, not on office politics and merits, they often don't noticed that someone is capitalizing on them or, if they do, they have been SO focused on their work that they have failed to build the social network they would need to support a motion to get the freeriders publically called for the incompetents that they really are and then fired.

Now, how they leverage the knowledge and skills of others is a different story. The key answer is that cheaters are only good at one thing: social engineering. This means that they are quick at figuring out how to push every guy's particular buttons: one answers to kudos, another one answers to threats, another one answers to the call of duty, another one answers to fuzzy logic about what the right decision would be and how quick results are needed, etc.

That's only a partial answer and it mostly applies to The Great Game of The Workplace, but it's a start.

--
The whole point of civilization is to reduce how much the average person has to think. - Stef Murky
[ Parent ]

Cheaters, managers and deception (none / 1) (#280)
by cribeiro on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 05:40:16 PM EST

While I agree with your intention (as I understood it), I'm not sure if I fully agree with you definition. I think it is too broad, and it may end up including a few people who are not actually 'cheating' - as per your definition - on purpuse. In fact, about all managers are cheaters by your definition :-). Let me try to add my few words at it.

Let us start with knowledge - tech knowledge, I mean. For example, not everyone is a expert at some specific area. That's maybe because they are experts on something else; they may be not up-to-date with the field because they are working at something else; finally, they may be generalists - people that don't dive deep into specific things but have the ability to see the entire picture, knowing where everything fits. Nothing of this is a capital mistake. And at least afew of these causes are present when you are in a management position. You have less time to invest studying specific technologies; you may end up managing people that are better than you at some specific things. But these same people may not be as good as you are at managing people and projects, and that's what count when you're a manager. And yes, in most of the cases, knowing how to craft a great Powerpoint presentation is also very important for managers :-)

For me, the mark of the cheater is simple: deception, or making people believe that he (the cheater) know what he does not know. Great managers don't cheat like this. They may be the ones doing the presentation, but they give their teams due credit. They also know how to keep people working toghether; how to motivate them; and how to keep a project from stalling for whatever reason. In this case, it is unfair to label such a person a cheater. They are the ones that are able to extract the full potential of a genius that would otherwise be wasted.

A last note about social engineering. As anything, this not a problem by itself. A good manager has to know how to effectively manage social issues. The problem is the combination of social engineering and deception. That's where the devil lies.

[ Parent ]

You seem to be breaking your own rules (2.50 / 6) (#122)
by AIDENWA on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 12:43:01 PM EST

by being condescending to your audience. I think you may have sabotaged your plans by basically describing to this community that its behavior is dictated not by individual intent and belief but by an easily resolved and exploited "game theory." It is unappealing to follow any leader who makes his followers feel impotent.

Wouldn't it make more sense to practice, instead of preaching? Then, whatever benefits there are to your philosophy should become apparent.

Just a thought... (2.00 / 2) (#134)
by lens flare on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 04:51:37 PM EST

Perhaps he already has tested our community, but is merely pretending not to have, in order to see if we realised what was happening?

[ Parent ]
Indeed he has (5.00 / 5) (#139)
by QuickFox on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 06:38:42 PM EST

Back in the Good Old Days Rusty was always around, spreading encouragement, creating atmosphere, generally doing just what the article describes. And indeed it worked! K5 was a great place back then (*snif*).

But as the number of users kept growing and growing, Rusty just couldn't keep up. Especially considering all the other occupations he has these days. And so the site started to fall apart.

So what can Rusty do?

Well, one thing to try is to dress up as xutopia and try to enlist a cadre of mini Rusties.

Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fi
[ Parent ]

What Online RPGs can teach you... (4.33 / 12) (#123)
by A synx on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 01:11:01 PM EST

Your strategy works, but what you're actually doing isn't fostering productive assistance. It's giving each other stars. You rose to the top of your forum almost completely on a popularity contest, (Not completely, since you couldn't make it to "top" top on languages you hadn't a clue how to code.) reminding me of my yearly high school elections. Heck, it reminded me of the Federal election, but I won't go into that. You, and probably others benefited from the system without doing anything to help others, earning money with money and not actually producing anything useful.

There is merit to your idea though, it exposes a possible solution to the problem with the star system. Maybe you just didn't mention it, but I got the impression people weren't restricted in how many stars they could give out. I was on a MUCK the other day that had a similar reinforcement system, giving each other "stars" for good roleplaying, with a small exception. You only got 5 votes a day to give to people, non-cumulative.

So thankfully it would foil your strategy: people would still give out stars mutually, but since the points were so scarce, people would compete more for the rights to them. Since the requirements for my competition were getting along, helping each other and telling good stories, people did get along, help each other, and told very good stories. Not many could justify giving one of their precious 5 votes just because they received one from that person already, especially if that person was obviously sitting on popularity and not actually meeting the requirement for stars (the requirement being good technical reviews in your case.) Granted this strategy is weak to "clique" formation, since scarcity would restrict people from adding others to their circle of mutuality, but it certainly spared us from giving people acclaim who were just playing with us like chess pieces and not like people.

Another technique I suppose is separating the audience from the performers. Like in Kuro5in, even if you got a high rating from every single author of an article in hopes of them reciprocating not on the basis of the quality of your article, but on the feeling of obligation you give them with your "gift" of points, the amount of people not writing articles is a vastly larger quantity. Most people on Kuro5in do not benefit at all from ratings. In fact, people do not benefit at all: their articles do. So even if you tried to connect your giving a high ranking with them giving you a high ranking for no other reason in the future, it should be a drop in the bucket. And unless you tell them, "I'm rating this article high because you wrote it, and if you were honorable you would do the same for me," the people you play games with are likely to assume you're rating their article as an honest opinion of whether it is newsworthy or not, and not feel a need to reciprocate.

Of course the easiest strategy is to make it so people can't tell where the stars they get came from. ;)

The fact that you helped people get along doesn't mean you were not manipulating them unfairly. You could have just helped people get along, and not also tried to "beat" the system by getting so many stars. And then there's always the idea of giving good enough advice that you get high in ranks without having to rely on non-merit-based techniques. It's like that dumb guy on "Welcome Freshmen" once said. "I just found the perfect way to cheat: all the answers to the test are in the textbook!"

I was thinking about the "Prisoner's Dilemma" the other day. There are usually two strategies in such a game, and in life. Eiher be selfish and betray everyone in hopes of getting a rube, or trust only people who haven't already betrayed you. The funny thing is, both strategies work provided they are the majority. A con man surrounded by philanthropists will not be able to prosper, and a goodie two-shoes walking down the back alleys with money sticking out of his pockets isn't going to last long either. You could say it proves something about human nature to force everyone into that bitter dog-eat-dog, everyone for themself strategy, but you would be falsly attributing to their nature what is actually the environment you have created.



Starling
Who thinks applied math is a bit of an oxymoron. n.n

I can confirm this (3.75 / 8) (#129)
by psychologist on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 03:58:52 PM EST

Everybody hates me, but since I stopped rating people down, and only rated up things I liked, everyone has been rating my comments up. I've been constantly trusted for the past 6 months, though I've hardly been here most of the time.

Tit for tat, the world's just like that.

Stop sneaking in your stupid ideology (3.40 / 10) (#132)
by Estanislao Martínez on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 04:49:57 PM EST

Human nature shows that in a competitive enviroment people tend to give very little. We are wired in a sense to be cautious about free-loaders. We don't want to be taken advantage of. Because this is prevalent in a competitive system we tend to have very little giving going on.

This is not a tenet of Game Theory. Stop trying to sneak in your pseudo-intellectual neo-Darwinism into maths.

The right formulation is that Game Theory assumes all actors to be "rational" in the game theoretical sense; that is, that at any branch point in a game tree, they will choose the branch which maximizes their minimal outcome.

--em

Other "right(s)" exist ... (none / 0) (#304)
by suquux on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 05:19:21 AM EST

... besides "maximin", e.g. maximax, minimax, Hurwitz ... to name a few.

... its Time for a little homework .

CC.
All that we C or Scheme ...
[ Parent ]

nit (3.00 / 2) (#133)
by kpaul on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 04:50:30 PM EST

[The stars each individual receives is added up]

stars are added up...


2014 Halloween Costumes

new architects are poping up! (4.00 / 3) (#136)
by chanio on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 04:56:24 PM EST

I laughted a lot with some forums at Slashdot (where it is impossible that I could propose a theme to discuss, though I tryied some times).

While there are a important subjects being discussed, there are some guys that are constantly fighting to publish their posting on the first place of the list :). There are also others that just speak up their minds of any 'unimaginable' subject. And in a while , these forums have new big threads discussing about any other idea that these people had propposed...
________________
Farenheit Binman:
This worlds culture is throwing away-burning thousands of useful concepts because they don't fit in their commercial frame.
My chance of becoming intelligent!

slashdot moderation (none / 2) (#297)
by cryptic on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 10:33:14 AM EST

Yeah, I know what you mean about /. I remember trying to post some new item, I know I was the first to post it, but somehow it was posted by one of the moderators instead, like 45 minutes later. Hmm...
All that is comes from the mind
[ Parent ]
I think genetic engineering is the only solution (2.00 / 2) (#142)
by CoolName on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 09:30:35 PM EST

I think human nature will have to be enhanced to improve Internet boards. The K5 board is set up well. In certain specialized fields such at the IT board you mentioned intelligent comment increases but on 'anything goes' boards K5 is about as good as a board gets.

"What does your conscience say? -- 'You shall become the person you are.'" Friedrich Nietzsche


what this site needs... (3.25 / 4) (#144)
by rmg on Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 12:34:32 AM EST

is plenty of moxy.

_____ intellectual tiddlywinks

most obvious meta troll (1.00 / 3) (#147)
by s alpha on Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 04:44:12 AM EST

your mad skillz in gametheory are better employed trying to generate the most gargantuan blackhole of navelgazing k5 comment trees ever... o wait, nevermind.

two thoughts... (4.50 / 3) (#149)
by dash2 on Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 07:42:47 AM EST

first of all, this idea of an experiment with unforeseen positive side effects remind me of an incident famous in Social Psychology. The boys in a high school class decided to play a joke on the least popular girl in class. They each, in turn, asked her out on a date, pretended to her that she was really cute... By the end of the cycle she had become more self-confident, this fed back into her attractiveness and their pretence became reality. (A link or reference would be welcome if anyone has one - I know my description isn't very good.)

Second, what do you think of sites like Perlmonks which encourage everybody to mod as much as possible? The culture there seems to encourage "altruistic" and generous moderation, and so as well as a great technical forum, there is usually a pretty nice atmosphere.
------------------------
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

perlmonks is like usenet but better. (4.00 / 2) (#156)
by waxmop on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 09:00:04 AM EST

Although people have been freely exchanging advice and information on usenet for years, there's a few clever aspects of perlmonks that make it much better:

  • Information is indexed by topics so searching through archives is much easier.
  • The experience point system gives some measure of how the community feels about the expertise of a given person, so malicious advice is mitigated.
  • The experience point system also provides an incentive to help; even if it is just a gold-star token.
  • The moderation system strains out a lot of the noise/advertising/trolling/offtopic junk that clutters usenet.
I love perlmonks. The python community has comp.lang.python, which has the same spirit of cooperation and helping out the new kids, but it suffers from the issues inherent in usenet.
--
We are a monoculture of horsecock. Liar
[ Parent ]
java != javascript (1.33 / 6) (#152)
by trejkaz on Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 08:16:18 PM EST

I knew I was capable of answering questions in the Javascript(JS) forum without any problems. My brother is a Sun Certified Java programmer and I consider him one of the more intelligent people I ever met.

*cough*



I think he knows that (4.00 / 4) (#155)
by malkiri on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 08:54:36 AM EST

Within about a month and only a few days apart, we became top experts in our respective forums.
---
grep me no patterns, and I'll tell you no lines.
[ Parent ]
I'm willing to play along (5.00 / 5) (#153)
by psidragon on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 01:22:23 AM EST

Now, is anyone else?
-
Curiosity is a great motivator. Fear is greater still.
Three, apparently (sp?) (none / 1) (#303)
by Ricdude on Thu Oct 09, 2003 at 02:32:35 PM EST

judging by the three people who've rated your comment at 5... (at the time of this response).

[ Parent ]
What is the point of Tek-Tips? (4.25 / 5) (#154)
by DodgyGeezer on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 07:48:16 AM EST

I can't understand the attraction of web sites like Tek-Tips.  What's wrong with the Usenet?  It's been filling the same function for much longer, and much better.  The interface is better, and when couple with groups.google.com, far better for searching.  Furthermore, there's no annoyances like that drop down window thing that I always get as I always forget to disable JavaScript before going to that site.  Web browser just don't do the format justice, but NNTP clients have honed this ability over many years.  It just boggles my mind that somebody would put up with a web interface when newsgroup do the job way better.

you say as you post on kuro5hin... (none / 1) (#197)
by circletimessquare on Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 03:24:36 PM EST

don't you find that ironic?

for one, there is the user base, and tek-tips has a good one

and a lot of poeple can't use newsgroups at work

yes, i agree the interface of tek-tips sucks

but, you can do things with modern web page design to enhance online groups that blows nntp away

look at slashdot for example

and shall we talk spam?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

The problem with usenet (none / 1) (#293)
by mveloso on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 01:00:34 PM EST

Usenet has too much noise. Back in the day (91-94) usenet was really useful, but now it's easier to pop over to specific niche groups and ask than to post to a general audience.

For example, it's easier to find stuff in the samba archives than to post to usenet and ask.

Plus, usenet posting automatically makes you a spam target (the nospam/email hacks notwithstanding).

[ Parent ]

Usenet is better (none / 1) (#300)
by katsklaw on Fri Oct 03, 2003 at 12:35:25 PM EST

I will have to disagree with you for a few reasons.

firstly, "better" is an opnion, what's better for you may be horrid for others.

secondly, I have found that usenet has become useless. I've seen very little helpful advice on many of the groups. Most of the time I have found that resources are wasted on complaints about spammers and sarcasm towards others in hopes to make oneself feel better or more important.

There is no appearent control structure on usenet so that means that the level of support cannot be maintained. Where as a privately owned and moderated website can/will be by nature more helpful.

Regards, kat

[ Parent ]

En Garde! The ultimate greasy pole... (none / 2) (#301)
by tyroneking on Fri Oct 03, 2003 at 04:04:16 PM EST

Some of the ideas expressed in the article are common to the postal/email game En Garde (aka 'the greasy pole') which I would highly recommend as a fun diversion for those of you who would otherwise be clogging up the K5 server with useful insights ;)
Here's a URL to a web page about the game: http://www.pevans.co.uk/EnGarde!.html (well respected GM), and here's another: http://hijenks.com/egwebring/. (no recommendation - I haven't played the game for years, and never by email.) Of course, whatever you do, beware of the Cthulhu variant ;)
Set in pre-Revolution Paris (I think), En Garde seemed to revolve around voting up your 'friends' in the game world, in return for favours they might do for you in return. All pretty fun stuff; worth a look and probably better than screwing with TekTips (though IMHO ittoolbox.com is better for tech help and not so 'tacky').


Exercise in social change (applying game theory to have more fun) | 304 comments (273 topical, 31 editorial, 0 hidden)
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