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[P]
Living with Asperger's Syndrome

By NeantHumain in Culture
Wed May 19, 2004 at 12:48:55 PM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)
Culture

Maybe you've heard of it: the Geek Syndrome. You might even know it's a mild form of autism. The truth is Asperger's presents unique struggles that you might not have even thought of before.


Asperger's syndrome is a pervasive developmental disorder, or autistic spectrum disorder, recognizable by the lack of social skills and the often highly intellectual, perseverative interests developed by those with Asperger's. For a person with Asperger's (an aspie), friendships, social banter, and romantic relationships can be difficult channels to navigate.

Language

First of all, unlike autistic people, I did not have trouble learning to speak. However, I do have mild hyperlexia, which basically means a large vocabulary. Moreover, it is common for autistics and aspies to have some trouble lying, recognizing lies, and interpeting metaphors. The result is that most aspies are seen as literal and humorless.

Like many aspies, my voice can sometimes sound monotonous and emotionless. Similarly, aspies are known for giving soliloquies about their favorite subjects, or perseverations, not always realizing how much they are boring the people they are speaking to.

Aspies sometimes also miss facial expressions, body gestures, and implications. While I can often pick up on someone's emotional state from a quick glance at their face (and it has to be quick because, like most aspies, I have trouble looking people in the eye), I can often completely miss things or misinterpret them. Likewise, my facial expression is usually plain or uncontrolled.

Perseverations

Aspies tend to take an obsessive interest in detailed things. It is typical for an aspie to take an all-encompassing interest in something for a few months and later become interested in something else after having already learned enough about the first subject. In other words, we aspies have "weird," nerdy interests and hobbies.

This is a chicken-and-egg problem, of course. Do we aspies take up these perseverations because we are unable to occupy ourselves with more neurotypical (NT) (that is, something relating to nonautistics) socializing, or do our perseverations prevent us from socializing? Maybe it's a little bit of both.

Nevertheless, perseveration for me has meant spending my early teenage years learning how to program and becoming especially adept at using Windows. A little later it meant focusing on perfecting my French accent and reading French newspapers like Le Monde. Because of my perseverations, I have a more thorough understanding of history, politics, language, computers, psychology, geography, and numerous other subjects than the average person. In contrast, I have a deficit of knowledge about today's pop stars, actors, and social gossip. This sometimes makes it hard for people to have interesting conversations with me.

Sensory Issues

It is not uncommon for me to hear high-frequency noises that go unnoticed by most people. I can sometimes hear the buzzing of the lights, TV, and other things, especially if I'm trying to fall asleep or it's quiet. A similar thing is I dislike the feel of cotton balls, although I've heard some NTs complain about this too.

Another thing is I frequently mishear people and sometimes don't hear them at all. If you say, "I went to the park today," I might hear, "I went tooth per day," or some other nonsense; and so I often have to ask, "Huh?" or "What?"

Sometimes I don't notice things right in front of my face. I have more than once accidentally skipped problems on a test because the question was too close to the directions, which I probably didn't read (did I mention aspies are sometimes too honest?). Especially in mathematics, I have been known to make absent-minded mistakes by doing things like 6 * 5 = 35. This would disqualify me from being an engineer or surgeon, I think.

Social Problems

Aspies have more than their share of difficulties making friends and finding a loving mate. Part of it is our perseverative interests, another part must be our tendency towards literal interpretations, and a third must be our tendency to be rigid and conservative--unfun. Many of us long for better social acceptance or at least friends to keep our lives interesting, but sometimes this seems beyond our grasp.

Comorbid (Coexisting) Disorders

Many aspies show signs of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, especially the inattentive type. In fact, many aspies are misdiagnosed as having ADD.

There also seems to be a relationship between autistic spectrum disorders and obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). While aspies do have perseverative (obsessive) interests, a significant portion develops actual OCD. Aspies with OCD may or may not show the typical symptoms of OCD, like compulsive hand washing.

Various anxiety disorders and anxious personality disorders other than OCD, especially social phobia and avoidant personality disorder, may also develop, as the autistic life can be stressful.

Depression is also not uncommon among aspies. My own life has too often been filled with this mood. I was first and most depressed in 8th and 9th grades when my life seemed to have reached a low point. I had recently changed from a Catholic elementary school to the public school system, and adjustment was harsh. The only emotions I knew were anger and frustration. I could only see the worst of intentions in others towards me, and I became the more socially secluded than I'd ever been before. My recover from this strong depression included becoming an atheist, changing my attitude towards life, and becoming more accepting. I still become depressed sometimes but not nearly as badly as back then.

The Aspie Perspective

The aspie sense of humor is somewhat different from most people's sense of humor. I am especially good at making odd connections about social happenings and use highly sarcastic humor to criticize actions like the invasion of Iraq. My disconnection from society along with my attempts to better understand society are a gold mine containing the nuggets of social injustices and inequalities, hypocrisies, and self-aggrandizement.

I vent my unattainable need for excitement and companionship through art. I can sketch disturbing images of distorted faces and forms as well as near photorealistic pictures--if I'm looking at the object or a photograph of that object. Writing , especially humorous writing, is another thing that allows me to assuage my unfulfillment.

I have written--even perseverated on--this article in the sincere hope that someone might better understand aspies and not write us off as clueless geeks. We aspies only want what everyone else wants: happiness.

Of Further Interest

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Poll
Are you on the autistic spectrum?
o Yes, I have Asperger's syndrome. 25%
o Yes, I have high-functioning autism. 1%
o Yes, I have pervasive developmental disorder-not otherwise specified. 1%
o Yes, I have some other autistic spectrum disorder or autistic tendencies. 5%
o No, I'm just another NT. 26%
o Maybe, I am considering whether I might fit on the autistic spectrum. 38%

Votes: 103
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Le Monde
o http://www .aspergers.com/aspcrit.htm
o news:alt.s upport.autism
o http://www .autistics.org/
o http://www .angelfire.com/clone/asperger/index.html
o Also by NeantHumain


Display: Sort:
Living with Asperger's Syndrome | 443 comments (386 topical, 57 editorial, 5 hidden)
Just so everyone knows.. (1.20 / 34) (#3)
by undermyne on Mon May 17, 2004 at 05:51:19 PM EST

its pronounced ass-burgers syndrome.

"You're an asshole. You are the greatest troll on this site." Some nullo

Its the trifecta! (1.50 / 10) (#20)
by undermyne on Mon May 17, 2004 at 08:22:56 PM EST

Trog, Hamster, AND Tex all gave this a 3. Gentlemen, I am humbled.

I can now retire and begin trolling as a mere hobby.

"You're an asshole. You are the greatest troll on this site." Some nullo

[ Parent ]
Not quite perfect. (1.50 / 6) (#48)
by Empedocles on Tue May 18, 2004 at 02:52:19 AM EST

For a perfect score, you still have to get zeroed by jxg, eudas, and mcc.

---
And I think it's gonna be a long long time
'Till touch down brings me 'round again to find
I'm not the man they think I am at home

[ Parent ]
Question (none / 1) (#394)
by TanisNikana on Sun May 23, 2004 at 12:09:59 PM EST

Got a question: how is this funny?

[ Parent ]
no wonder (none / 0) (#439)
by magicmaster2121 on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 05:16:42 PM EST

no wonder this schitzophrenic chick that i used to date use to laugh cheeseburger that drove freaking nuts by the way is any body else thinking one im thinking wone hell of a house party no im saying hi fives ha lets see um come on i no you love me serously who can we entertain but ourselves and if thear any chicks reading this wanna fuck and produce disfunctional offspring together we can lissten to the music the poar son a father and or bitch composes

[ Parent ]
no wonder (none / 0) (#440)
by magicmaster2121 on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 05:16:53 PM EST

no wonder this schitzophrenic chick that i used to date use to laugh cheeseburger that drove freaking nuts by the way is any body else thinking one im thinking wone hell of a house party no im saying hi fives ha lets see um come on i no you love me serously who can we entertain but ourselves and if thear any chicks reading this wanna fuck and produce disfunctional offspring together we can lissten to the music the poar son a father and or bitch composes

[ Parent ]
its sad hehe (none / 0) (#441)
by magicmaster2121 on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 05:22:42 PM EST

notice how fast and obsevily we respond weve gotta a pretty good ping time dont you think dont worry its my mania talking

[ Parent ]
i guess i mean i (none / 0) (#442)
by magicmaster2121 on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 05:27:57 PM EST

damb horizons

[ Parent ]
This is a bit scary (1.87 / 8) (#6)
by dreamer on Mon May 17, 2004 at 06:25:11 PM EST

I often get the feeling that my mind makes a lot of weird connections, but not the obvious ones. Which is to say, a lot of these descriptions could fit me. With the exception that I, at times, would like to think I am not overly obsessive. And at times it feels closer to the oposite, where I cannot fulfil any of the projects I start out on. (Well, there was a period where I would read all books by a particular author from the local library. That is, one author at a time... Until I discovered computers. Well, it seems I just contradicted what I wrote before...) But I never made the connection between hearing high-frequent noises and having social problems. It does sound weird. And it's there. That is the scary part; a connection I didn't even imagine, which doesn't sound obvious when I hear it. I don't know what kind of comment this is supposed to be. Probably something close to a personal rant that no-one is supposed to understand. (No good reason to post it, then.)

Get diagnosed (none / 3) (#67)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 04:20:38 AM EST

If you have it, there are those nice little list in which you're supposed to be deficent. Work on them.
Also on those list are things in which you're supposed to be good. Work on them harder.


[ Parent ]
You, sir, are autistic! (1.00 / 5) (#147)
by Qwaniton on Wed May 19, 2004 at 01:13:12 AM EST

Congratulations!


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
Or perfectly normal! (none / 3) (#200)
by SPYvSPY on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:31:49 PM EST

But who fucking cares, because we hand out "medical" diagnoses like candy, and it feels *way* good to blame your shortcomings on Nature rather than Nurture. The erosion personal responsibility is nearly complete! Soon we'll all be abnormal!!! A hint of Asperger's here, a dollop of ADD there, a pinch of clinical depression everywhere!!! Wheeee!!!
------------------------------------------------

By replying to this or any other comment in this thread, you assign an equal share of all worldwide copyright in such reply to each of the other readers of this site.
[ Parent ]

But... what does it normal? (none / 0) (#346)
by snarlydwarf on Fri May 21, 2004 at 02:26:48 PM EST

I don't think people with AS use it as a an excuse, but as an explanation for who they are and why they think in ways that don't match the majority of people. It is crucial in life to understand yourself, to know why you think the way you do, why your values are what they are, and why other people classify you as they do. Someone with AS feels -good- when they realize "wait, I'm not completely insane, other people have these exact same problems, and they're able to deal with them". That is counter to using AS as an 'excuse': if it was seen as a horrible "affliction" it wouldn't be so welcomed as a diagnosis. In fact, most people with AS see it not as something that makes them 'abnormal', but as something that makes them 'normal' in some sense. Personally, I see it as being as comforting as going from thinking you're the only person in the world with blue eyes to seeing others have blue eyes, and eventually realizing there are even all sorts of shades of blue. Yes, everyone is abnormal. No one is "typical" in all ways, we each have our quirks and oddities. AS, though, is normal. It may not be 'prevelant', but it's not something to fret about, to think "oh, gosh, my life is ruined, I'm so pitiful", there are plenty of very successful people with AS, and that serves as a motivator and comfort for others with AS. Blah, I'm rambling. :P Anyway, I guess the point is that I don't think the author is using it as an excuse, but as an explanation. An 'excuse' would imply that there was something 'bad' about the AS symptoms... and I don't see anyone with AS thinking it's "bad" to be so obsessive (or rambling :)) or downright geeky... it's just "different". An Explanation, OTOH, just serves to help understanding.

[ Parent ]
meh.. (2.38 / 18) (#7)
by Work on Mon May 17, 2004 at 06:55:59 PM EST

the problem with these "living with ..." articles and syndromes is that the symptoms are often so general and common that *anyone* could be mislead into thinking they're ill.

Who hasn't misheard someone else say something? Who hasn't heard a sound that nobody else did? Or made a stupid mistake on a math test? With events this general, I bet just about anyone could say those have happened to them many times.

A "perseveration" sounds like a fancy word for 'hobby'.

I have no doubt that there are some people out there have a true mental abnormality that keeps them from functioning well in society. But stories like this can lead anyone into thinking they are 'ill'.

The big difference would be (1.83 / 6) (#9)
by richarj on Mon May 17, 2004 at 07:28:28 PM EST

Does it interfere with your life to such an extent that it makes doing things you would normally want to do, difficult?

If it doesn't then just ignore it, if it does then you do have a problem and should seek solutions.

If people want to go around labelling themselves with disorders just for simple excuses then they have a problem anyway but I don't know what you would call it



"if you are uncool, don't worry, K5 is still the place for you!" -- rusty
[ Parent ]
Dyspraxia (2.00 / 5) (#14)
by komadori on Mon May 17, 2004 at 07:48:37 PM EST

Developmental disorders are fairly indistinct things made only apparent by the presence of an, often fairly disparate, set of symptoms. Indeed you might be tempted to think they're contrived arbitrarily ^_^'.

I am dyspraxic, which is a condition affecting perception and the organisation of thought and movement. I was diagnosed when I was six and have undergone many years of occupational therapy to minimise my coordination difficulties. The symptoms are tempered with age, but I'll never be 'neurotypical' ^_^'. That is to say, I exhibit most of dyspraxia's symptoms (excluding speech difficulties).

Now dyspraxia is known to overlap with other developmental disorders. I can say that as I exhibit every symptom listed in the article to some extent that I'm likely somewhere in the autistic spectrum, but you're right that somebody can't just look at the symptoms of a developmental disorder, pick their eccentricities out of the list, and think they're 'ill'.


"When we are victorious on a world scale I think we shall use gold for the purpose of building public lavatories in the streets of some of the largest cities of the world." Vladimir Illich Lenin


[ Parent ]
perseveration (2.60 / 10) (#58)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 03:48:12 AM EST

A hobby:

- Something you do to relax, to enjoy and to take your mind of things, for a couple of hours at a time, and you return to it regulary?

a perseveration:

  • Something to do full time, at the danger of not eating, sleeping or doing anything that is needed by  the body.
  • You do it intensly. For a certain period you can't do anything else. Periods last from days to months at a time.
  • All thought not related to the perseveration are not usefull and are repressed.
  • After the 'crush' wears off the subject only has a mild interest or even a slight aversion to you.
The effect on the outside world is such that if i walk into the library with a certain glitter in my eyes, the staff useally goes 'oh.....fuck.. not again'.
The library doesn't interest me anymore. To little new books come in each month and i hate romance novels.
It stopped holding my interest after i read about 3/4 off the books there.

[ Parent ]
astrology (2.14 / 7) (#108)
by guyjin on Tue May 18, 2004 at 04:58:27 PM EST

"
the problem with these "living with ..." articles and syndromes is that the symptoms are often so general and common that *anyone* could be mislead into thinking they're ill.
"

only for the type of person who takes horoscopes seriously: they ignore what doesn't fit, and focus on what does, and then beleive the whole thing is accurate.
-- 散弾銃でおうがいして ください
[ Parent ]

Oh boo. (2.22 / 22) (#8)
by jmzero on Mon May 17, 2004 at 07:22:45 PM EST

You have a disorder that makes it so you don't worship pop stars, learn lots of great things, and are able to make terribly witty comments about things "like the invasion of Iraq".  

I'm going to do an article about living life as a "normie".  Here's a beginning:  I sometimes stay up late playing video games.  I think it would be gross to eat ice cream off of a wooden spoon.  I don't like any of the the contestants on American Idol.  I have been known to make mistakes while doing math, and I can't draw things well at all.

Maybe it's just me, but your syndrome seems pretty wussy.  I know very few people who don't have idiosyncracies to match up to all of yours,  and I've met lots of people that have a hard time relating to other people.  I've got a relative that's pretty much incapable of interacting with strangers - really.  Somebody might call it a syndrome, I think she's just out of practice since she got overweight and self-concious.

Some hints for your article:

  1. Lose the self-serving tone.  You're not trying to sell us a bottle of Aspergers, you're supposed to be giving us an inside look at something.  Tell us something interesting, not that you have a mildly large vocabulary.
  2. Anecdotes.  Give us some example of how your social interactions differ from someone who's maybe just shy or otherwise socially underdeveloped.  

.
"Let's not stir that bag of worms." - my lovely wife
oh my god! (2.00 / 9) (#17)
by horny smurf on Mon May 17, 2004 at 08:15:52 PM EST

After reading t story, I thought I had Aspererger's Syndrome, but then when I read your post, I realized it's worse: I'm a normie!

At least I no longer feel like an outcast, knowing there are other people like me.

[ Parent ]

Anecdotes (2.60 / 10) (#18)
by Pholostan on Mon May 17, 2004 at 08:18:24 PM EST

This is a interesting subject. People usually don't believe me when I tell some little anectodes about my life. Surley I must be joking. Well, no.

Diffrences in sensory is what I believe to be easiest fopr NT people to understand. My hearing isn't bad. Despite this fact I often don't hear what other people say if I don't concentrate on that persons voice. If there are many sources of sound, I don't hear anything. I can't block the other sources of sound out, I hear them all. As I'm not able to parse all the ovehelming information input, it all flows together to gobbyedowk. I lack what you in psycology call the coctail party effect. Look here for an overwiev

This means, among other things, that parties are pretty boring to me. Unless I concentrate hard, I'm not able to listen to one person. Unless it is a very silent party, that is. I don't go to parties very often.

I used to experience what the author in the article describes too, that I simply don't hear it right. I doesn't happen as often nowdays though. I think it is related to my vocabularly being som much larger now. Still, sometimes I have a hard time "getting it". Some words just don't anchor themselves in my cerebral cortex, and I hear something completely diffrent. Words are often anchored into pictures in my mind. If I get the wrong impression af a word, I simply don't get the picture.

To the actual anecdote, then. I'm at this party. A person that I don't know walks up to me and tries to get my attention. This represents several problemns all in once. One, it is a noisy party, and I have trouble filtering out the persons voice. Two, I don't know this person. I don't know this persons interface, so to speak. As I don't get general "rules" I have to learn specifics. Every new person is in herself a mystery to me. Until I've gotten to know this new person, I lack a translator algorithm so to speak. So this person is trying to get my attention. There are lots of noise, so I can't hear what she's saying. Other people nearby may be talking to me at the same time. Resource starve. Usually I walk away at this moment, as the situation gets way to owerhelming.

This usually doesn't sit well with most people, and I do understand that. I just have a very hard time reacting in the "right" manner - I almost never know at the moment it happens what the "right" thing to do is. I usually figure it out later, when I have had time to think. Then it is way too late though. Try as I might, the exact two situations almost never happens twice tough. And it will have to be almost exactly the same situation, as I have very little in the improvisation department so to speak.

This is an example of a situation that I usually botch. Not that I don't try not to, mind. It might sound very trivial, but I assure you that it isn't trvial for me. I posetiviely hate not being able to handle such situations, as many people expect that I should - it goes without asking. As I have gotten older and more experienced, I've gotten more and more "templates" to use in social situations though. Sometimes I get it "right". As I have put a lot of time and energy into it, it also improves a little. Way harder than math this social interaction thing.


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
Parties (2.44 / 9) (#56)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 03:40:34 AM EST

I made it a personal project of mine to be able to survive them.

Few strategies:

- Become as hyper and manic as you can get. More adrenaline means more focus and more energy. Hyped-up you can deal with more information at a time. A reason for this i suspect is that with an more intense focus on doing things, there is less information-engtanglement.
With all the dopers at most parties, people won't even notice you're that strange.

  • Make an island of calm. Lot's of people who don't like the pressure of a partie fulltime, will drift to this. Problem with that is that the people who will come over are the more than average shy persons. Practice making people talk wiht each other when they are standing near you. Gives you a couple of minutes to determine an interface/vibe.
  • Find a nice niche that you can occupy. Be a bartender, help with serving snacks or food, be a DJ. Since you have a role to play, you have some basic rules you can use to sift information and have a fallback pattern of behaviour.
Best about being bartender and DJ is that you are at the party, but still a bit on the sideline. Gives a nice vantage point to observe and learn.

Tips:

  • When realy relaxed and talking to a girl, reserve some brainpower to _observe_ her reactions. Most of the time you will miss about every non-contact sexual hint.
  • If you're sure about a girl, switch from thinking to doing. Do not think when kissing (duh!)
  • Do not spend the evening chatting with the female of the alpa-male at the party.
  • When you reach a point of information overload, go outside or somewhere secluded, do some breathing exercises, find you calm again or charge up and go back into the breach.
  • Don't get laid by women you don't want but feel like you should.


[ Parent ]
You have just described (2.00 / 6) (#77)
by whazat on Tue May 18, 2004 at 07:39:19 AM EST

My entire party/nightclub strategy, which I formed sub conciously. Apart from chatting to girlssection, which I don't tend to do in a trying to pick up girls at parties kind of a way.  But I don't have asperger's or trouble relating to people.

Can you see why some people have trouble taking your problems seriously?

[ Parent ]

About taking it seriously... (none / 3) (#80)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 07:52:31 AM EST

...How quickly did you form that strategy?

It took me about 2-3 years to work it out.


[ Parent ]

Fair Enough (1.80 / 5) (#90)
by whazat on Tue May 18, 2004 at 10:21:43 AM EST

I take it seriously, although I haven't met anyone with it.

In answer to your question the waitering/being helpful developed from my childhood where I was asked to help do snacks by my parents. And I continued it on because I found that to be the most comfortable way for me to be at parties.

The dancing manically developed over a half a year or so of being bored trying to interact with people in nightclubs I couldn't hear.

I think the issues you have to deal with, such as a feeling of seperation from society at large, are quite common in those without Asperger's, just that you don't have the tools to deal with them.

[ Parent ]

Best comment here so far: (none / 1) (#376)
by malraux on Sat May 22, 2004 at 11:53:53 AM EST

I think the issues you have to deal with, such as a feeling of seperation from society at large, are quite common in those without Asperger's, just that you don't have the tools to deal with them.

That's exactly it. Yes, most people have problems interacting in society, finding friends, romance, etc. The difference is that mildly autistic people (Asberger's) simply cannot figure out a way to overcome this subconsciously. Dealing with this can take a supreme act of will that is difficult to obtain. Those who don't suffer from mild autism will have difficulty understanding how terribly hard this is to do.

Regards,
-scott

Administrator of zIWETHEY forums
[ Parent ]

Conscious/subconscious (1.83 / 6) (#83)
by arjan de lumens on Tue May 18, 2004 at 08:04:46 AM EST

And there you have the key to at least some of what Asperger's is: that we Aspies have to do/think out/learn everything consciously, whereas you can rely on your subconsciousness to provide you with useful guidance through all sorts of situations in life. You can learn without being really aware of it; I cannot.

[ Parent ]
Yepp (2.75 / 4) (#193)
by Pholostan on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:53:13 PM EST

That's been my life. When I was diagnosed I couldn't imagine that other people didn't have to learn and conciously act out everything like me. My whole universe exploded. It took well over a year before I had accepted it as truth. Thankfully, the very professional people that made my diagnosis were able to present it to me in a way that I could internalize. I'm very happy I live in a country where the laws give me right to have assistance if I need it.
 
- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
Great advice! (none / 2) (#201)
by Pholostan on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:36:54 PM EST

Thanks. Unfortenately, I'm pretty aware of them. Doesn't hurt to hear them from another though. I think that my biggest problem is that I almost completely lack any sense of self esteem. Being so unsure make me opt for fleeing. It's very irritating, really.

Another very stupid thing is that I'm very easily distracted. Some stray thoughts and I've forgotten the person I tried to talk to. Some people say that I'm very aloof and "out of it" sometimes.

The "hyped up manically"-part I do recognize. It was something I used to do alot during my adolecent years. It do help alot.

I'm working on it. Thanks again.

- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]

Biggest problems for people witrh AS: (2.00 / 9) (#52)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 03:25:53 AM EST

  • Automatic condencending by normies
  • Impossibility of 'translating' personal thought to something that has the right weight and tone for a normie to actually understand what the hell an AS is  saying.
  • Since you can sometimes walk like a normie, act like a normie and sound like a normie, you must be like totally normal and boring.


[ Parent ]
Meh (2.20 / 5) (#91)
by jmzero on Tue May 18, 2004 at 10:29:51 AM EST

I suppose my sights are set high.  I just got through reading "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night" (a "murder mystery" told from the perspective of an autistic child).  It did a very good job (I think) of presenting the child's mental world in a comprehensible way.  I just think that with a more focused description (with more anecdotes), maybe I'd get a feel for what Aspergers is "like".

Automatic condencending by normies

If I was in the mood for condescending, I would have been patronizing (and if this article was posted to most any other site, all the responses would be patronizing).  It is because I view the author as 100% my peer that I was honest in my evaluation.  I believe he's capable of a much better article.
.
"Let's not stir that bag of worms." - my lovely wife
[ Parent ]

Good point (2.00 / 4) (#102)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 04:06:30 PM EST

But please explain what is a normal viewpoint, give me enough data to work with and then maybe i can explain what's it's like.

[ Parent ]
Well, that's a good point (2.20 / 5) (#107)
by jmzero on Tue May 18, 2004 at 04:43:34 PM EST

give me enough data to work with and then maybe i can explain what's it's like.

Similarly, to explain "normal" I need to know what I'm comparing it to.  All I know about Aspergers I learned from reading little articles like this one.  Assumedly the person with Asperger's then, has somewhat of an advantage in making the comparison - given that they likely have much more experience with "normal"s than I do with "Aspie"s.
.
"Let's not stir that bag of worms." - my lovely wife
[ Parent ]

The Curious Incident... (none / 2) (#253)
by Wildgoose on Thu May 20, 2004 at 03:13:25 AM EST

My wife has read that book, and I intend doing so.

But she says that the descriptions, etc. in the book are nothing like Asperger's as we would understand it from our experience with our son and others we have met.

[ Parent ]

An Ecdote. (none / 1) (#393)
by Russell Dovey on Sun May 23, 2004 at 11:36:19 AM EST

Yesterday I was roleplaying with some of my closest friends, people I've known for years. I am totally at ease with them, there's no shyness involved.

At several points in a conversation our characters were having, the GM raised his eyebrows and said, in that "significant plot info" voice, something. Everyone else instantly got it. I had to be explicitly told what it implied.

THIS HAPPENS ALL THE FUCKING TIME.

Not that I'm bitter or nothing.

Asperger's is real, and is not just an excuse for being socially inept. It is a description of very real differences in how a person's brain works.

Oh, and trolling both works and doesn't work on Aspies. It works, because we take everything literally. It doesn't work, because we don't give a shit where an opinion comes from.  

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

Obsessive-compulsive style (2.50 / 8) (#10)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 17, 2004 at 07:28:36 PM EST

Much of what you describe sounds like what Robert Shapiro described as "obsessive-compulsive style" in his book Neurotic Styles

I wrote a little bit about it here. Here's a quote from Shapiro's book:

The most conspicuous characteristic of the obsessive-compulsive's attention is its intense, sharp focus. These people are not vague in their attention. They concentrate, and particularly do they concentrate on detail. This is evident, for example, in the Rorschach test in their accumulation, frequently, of large numbers of small "detail-responses" and their precise delineation of them (small profiles of faces all along the edges of the inkblots, and the like), and the same affinity is easily observed in everyday life. Thus, these people are very often to be found among technicians; they are interested in, and at home with, technical details... But the obsessive-compulsive's attention, although sharp, is in certain respects markedly limited in both mobility and range. These people not only concentrate; they seem always to be concentrating. And some aspects of the world are simply not to be apprehended by a sharply focused and concentrated attention... These people seem unable to allow their attention simply to wander or passively permit it to be captured... It is not that they do not look or listen, but that they are looking or listening too hard for something else.

What you say here:

Like many aspies, my voice can sometimes sound monotonous and emotionless. Similarly, aspies are known for giving soliloquies about their favorite subjects, or perseverations, not always realizing how much they are boring the people they are speaking to.

Aspies sometimes also miss facial expressions, body gestures, and implications.

Matches my own experiences. My wife has worked for several years to try to train me not to blather on about technical trivia.

Likewise, my facial expression is usually plain or uncontrolled.

... and my wife, an expert at body language, very sensitive to emotions in other people, finds me a complete enigma, extremely difficult for her to read. One reason she gives for her attraction is the challenge I present her of understanding what I'm feeling.

In person, I often strike people as flat and emotionless. If someone tells a joke, I will find it funny, but my usual reaction is to calmly say "that's funny" rather than smile or laugh.

One reason I like to write is that I have no problem expressing my feelings in writing. It's a freedom I don't have when I speak.

... large vocabulary...

I'm pretty sure I hold the record for the longest article ever submitted to k5, and I think the #2 spot as well. The most common criticism of my writing is that it is too lengthy, and in fact brevity is my greatest challenge.

So do I have Asperger's Syndrome? And how would it be distinguished from obsessive-compulsive style, which I have been diagnosed with?


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


Obsessive-Compulsive Style Has a Lot in Common (1.75 / 4) (#13)
by NeantHumain on Mon May 17, 2004 at 07:44:05 PM EST

Asperger's syndrome has a lot in common with obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, schizophrenia, schizoid personality disorder, and several other conditions. Asperger's is not merely a personality disorder. It is a neuropsychiatrically based pervasive developmental disorder in social, linguistic, and imaginative spheres with a resultant rigidity in behavior.

The crucial aspects of Asperger's are social deficits, the inability to adopt the social norms required to even hold a conversation easily.


I hate my sig.


[ Parent ]
rigidity in behaviour (none / 3) (#23)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 17, 2004 at 08:37:45 PM EST

funny you should say that about rigidity in behaviour, as that is the key characteristic of obsessive compulsive style.

Note that O.C.S. is a different thing from O.C.D. It's more of a personality trait that a disorder. For example, one doesn't get obsessive handwashing. One does get an obsessive interest in the technical details.

The rigidity in behaviour often comes out in talking with someone with OCS. We're very frustrating to talk to, often seeming to miss the point and appearing obstinate.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Wha? (none / 3) (#146)
by Qwaniton on Wed May 19, 2004 at 01:10:19 AM EST

Sure, buddy.

I'm not sure why you even bother to make such a difference between "Asperger's Syndrome" and autism. There really isn't one, when you get to the point.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
When were you first diagnosed? (2.40 / 5) (#16)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Mon May 17, 2004 at 08:01:01 PM EST

What lead to your diagnosis?

I've often wondered if I have Asperger's Symdrome.  I pretty much have the symptoms you describe.  And people have always thought that I am very strange.

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour

i thought i had asperger's (1.56 / 25) (#21)
by circletimessquare on Mon May 17, 2004 at 08:23:09 PM EST

but it turned out i was just a hypochondriac

as i suppose 80% of self-diagnosed "fill in the blank" syndrome sufferers are

it is a sort of poverty of the soul to find so much identity politics at play in the game of quasi-medical conditions


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Selfdiagnosis is pretty worthless (2.20 / 5) (#24)
by Pholostan on Mon May 17, 2004 at 08:43:34 PM EST

if you don't pay attention to the facts or to detail. And I think you can calm yourself - you are just an ordinary jerk. There are many, many millions of your kind, unfortenately. You know, less than 1% of the population falls into he autistic spectra, and even less are concidered to have asperger syndrome.

I'd love to flame along, but I do need to go to bed. Have some work to do tomorrow.

- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]

i am a jerk, but i'm not the problem (2.00 / 8) (#30)
by circletimessquare on Mon May 17, 2004 at 10:06:30 PM EST

this is the problem:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=541&ncid=751&e=8& ;u=/ap/20040517/ap_on_he_me/kids_behavior_drugs

we are hyperdiagnosing and overmedicating ourselves in the pursuit to be "normal"

what the hell is that?

i would say it's much better not to be normal, but i could instead say so as not to be flippant: the amount of people who genuinely suffer from these exotic conditions are greatly outweighed by the gawking tabloid-level uninformed interest in them by people who are grasping at straws in their pursuit at self-identity

additionally, all of these "syndromes" are so subjective as to be practically worthless in helping or hindering those who might suffer from them

it's a giant game, and it helps no one, and may do more harm than good


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

What the hell is that? (2.60 / 10) (#36)
by richarj on Mon May 17, 2004 at 10:45:41 PM EST

That is a society that cannot tell the difference between suffering from a disorder and just plain having a disorder.

They say that an abnormality is more than 2 standard deviations from the mean. In the system that wants everyone to be normal would have everyone who has a high enough IQ treated for it. All of our great (non dopeing) sports stars should be treated for their abnormal abilities.

Only when the abnormality is a hinderance to the individual should the individual be treated for it. And when I say hinderance I mean as to living the life of "normal" people. Otherwise we begin to slide into a society that is chaseing it's tail. Because no-one can ever be normal unless everyone is a clone.



"if you are uncool, don't worry, K5 is still the place for you!" -- rusty
[ Parent ]
i hate it when people say things better than i do! (1.50 / 6) (#40)
by circletimessquare on Tue May 18, 2004 at 12:10:58 AM EST

but thanks ;-)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
A movie on the subject (2.20 / 5) (#57)
by richarj on Tue May 18, 2004 at 03:43:03 AM EST

Harrison Bergeron
Story by Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
imdb link

Simple plot synopsis. "All men are not created equal. It is the purpose of the Government to make them so."

Very scary when you compare their president with GWB jnr



"if you are uncool, don't worry, K5 is still the place for you!" -- rusty
[ Parent ]
Life before Sam Gamgee (none / 3) (#92)
by Miniwheat on Tue May 18, 2004 at 10:53:35 AM EST

That was a good movie, but you could read the story as well.

[ Parent ]
Well said (none / 3) (#190)
by Pholostan on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:44:46 PM EST

In a tolerant and open society, all kinds of people will thrive. I don't view myself as disabled. My parents don't, neither do my siblings (I have six siblings). None of my old friends view me as disabled.

However, I have hade a serious depression. In conjuction with my treatment for that, I was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome. The diagnose itself was a great help to my treatment. I would't have gotten the right treatment otherwise.

Aspies are diffrent. You don't fill up the tank with disel if you have a car that runs on gas. Likewise you need other skills and methods to repair a diesel engine than a engine that runs on gas. Pretty simple, really.


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
movies (none / 0) (#417)
by jbridge21 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 09:30:20 PM EST

have you seen Equilibrium?

[ Parent ]
You overstate your case (2.44 / 9) (#60)
by GenerationY on Tue May 18, 2004 at 03:54:32 AM EST

Certainly I'm no fan of identity politics, but on the other hand, give me sets of fMRI scans of people performing appropriate tests I can tell you which one of them (if any) has autism quite easily. You can do it yourself if you can find the Fusiform Gyrus and the Amygdala on a scan.

Hypochondria has no influence here.

[ Parent ]

let's be consistent at least (1.57 / 19) (#25)
by Hana Yori Dango on Mon May 17, 2004 at 08:48:08 PM EST

Interesting... I read a thread about obesity a few weeks ago on Plastic (which has a similar demographic to k5) and half the posts said something like "Yah well there might be that ONE PERCENT of people that can blame their glands, but most are fat because they don't control themselves!"

Yet here, because it's trendy to not be "a Normal"... everyone claims to have a chemical imbalance that makes them geeky. So if obese people claim that their glands make them fat we mock them and point out that because there are so many fat people, there's no chance that even an appreciable fraction is caused by glands.

Yet if it's "glands" that make you a social misfit, there's no questioning? Of course Asperger's Syndrome exists, but it's not the only reason why you can't work well with people, just like glands are not the only reason (or even an important reason) why people get fat. I call bullshit.

Not about chemical inbalance (2.22 / 9) (#27)
by Pholostan on Mon May 17, 2004 at 09:00:55 PM EST

There is nothing biologicaly wrong with people with Asperger's syndrome. There are no dysfunctional glands. Aspies are diffrent. Quite diffrent, and it doesn't show on the outside.

A wordning that I identify with is that we who have Asperger's differ in our inner core of our being. We work fudamentally diffrent inside. We think, feel and react diffrently. We percive the world diffrent, because our sensory appratus works diffrently. Our cognition is diffrent, on many levels.

The inner core of my being is diffrent. I know no other way to describe it. I know it to be true.
 
- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]

I guess your dictionary works diffrently too (2.27 / 11) (#32)
by Hana Yori Dango on Mon May 17, 2004 at 10:17:11 PM EST

If you were simply responding to my post as another edit-queue-monkey, I would ignore this silliness. But because you're the one pushing this drivel it'd be nice to have a substantial piece of evidence to sink our teeth into.
I know no other way to describe it. I know it to be true.
You may feel this way, but it doesn't do your argument much good. In my opinion you are denying any sort of biochemical explanation of Asperger's because you don't want to admit that what makes you "super-duper special" might actually be a malfunction in your oh-so-perfect misunderstood semi-autistic mind.

Autism itself is a disorder which is highly complex and difficult to describe but most certainly has a neurological aspect... yet you want me to "just believe" that Asperger's is different?

Rather than posting this self-indulgent fluff piece which offers no real evidence that your problem exists other than a few self-help websites, and then even denying a medical component... Just directly post pictures of yourself masturbating. It'd be a lot more honest than this drivel.

[ Parent ]

Actually (1.80 / 5) (#37)
by richarj on Mon May 17, 2004 at 10:51:52 PM EST

He just said they are different inside the head. Is that not a neurological aspect? His brain is wired differently, it has nothing to do with chemicals or glands.

"if you are uncool, don't worry, K5 is still the place for you!" -- rusty
[ Parent ]
of course its wired differently (1.83 / 6) (#43)
by Work on Tue May 18, 2004 at 12:46:57 AM EST

everyone's brain is wired differently. Mine is different than yours whos is different than his.

I think the poster's point was that this is nothing special nor particularly noteworthy. Like fat people who blame their glands for their weight control problems, many with personality disorders blame 'brain wiring'

Of course diagnosing a gland disorder is probably a far sight easier than diagnosing a true "miswiring" of the brain.

The article writer may indeed be truly 'different'. But you wouldnt know it from this article. I bet 90% of the people here can identify many of the so-called 'symptoms' written but certainly 90% of the population here do not have asperger's.

[ Parent ]

Duh (2.33 / 6) (#117)
by Qwaniton on Tue May 18, 2004 at 06:06:35 PM EST

Personality disorders are caused my neurological conditions. As is autism. Yes, as much as you don't like to admit it, autistic people truly are "wired differently". Very differently. Yes, NTs are wired differently. I know they're not the same. However we have true neurological differences that are irrelevant of personal experience or anything else that can be blamed on "brain wiring".

What's going on here is that you are feeling threatened by a group of people very different from you and you're trying to trivialize it by saying "yeah, we're all different". That's just bullshit.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
I figured it out... (none / 3) (#202)
by SPYvSPY on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:39:42 PM EST

...the difference between aspies and normal people is that aspies know that they're different than normal people.
------------------------------------------------

By replying to this or any other comment in this thread, you assign an equal share of all worldwide copyright in such reply to each of the other readers of this site.
[ Parent ]

Very true (none / 2) (#204)
by Pholostan on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:49:15 PM EST

I've known that I'm diffrent since my middle teenage years. It was then I started to discover that people don't think nor feel or react like I do. Kind of hard not to notice really.

An educationalist who hade worked extensively with autistic people for many years said that autistic people who have higher than normal IQ usually find out pretty quick that they are very diffrent.

And we Aspies need to know. Otherwise it would be quite problematic living in a "normal" society. We must consciously compensate, correct and amend.
- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]

;-) Kidding! (none / 2) (#208)
by SPYvSPY on Wed May 19, 2004 at 05:04:22 PM EST

I was kidding, dude. I don't want to pick on you, because I suspect that you really do consider yourself physically and behaviorally different than normal, and I respect that, and I don't want to make you feel badly. In the back of my mind, I suspect that you are just as capable of being normal as I am, but I won't bludgeon you with that point.
------------------------------------------------

By replying to this or any other comment in this thread, you assign an equal share of all worldwide copyright in such reply to each of the other readers of this site.
[ Parent ]

Capable, with an effort (none / 3) (#214)
by Pholostan on Wed May 19, 2004 at 05:51:26 PM EST

I'm capable, just as a monkey can wear clothes and act like a human. Not without effort though. You wouldn't know that it takes an effort for me by just watching me. You will have to take my word for it. Aspergers is invisible in that way. It is a complex testing procedure to correctly diagnose Aspergers syndrome. On the surface Aspies mught just look like obnoxious, badly raised people. But there is a lot more hidden under the surface, I assure you.

Doesn't matter that you were kidding. You are right.
- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]

Science (1.75 / 4) (#75)
by whazat on Tue May 18, 2004 at 07:09:33 AM EST

Here is some mention of neural differences.

[ Parent ]
bad link [n/t] (none / 3) (#76)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 07:23:35 AM EST



[ Parent ]
Here is (2.00 / 4) (#85)
by whazat on Tue May 18, 2004 at 08:18:04 AM EST

A fixed link I hope.

[ Parent ]
Neurological, not glandular (2.00 / 4) (#116)
by Qwaniton on Tue May 18, 2004 at 06:03:31 PM EST

By the way, autism is a neurological condition.

On a vague tangent, I don't see a difference between Asperger's and autism. They're one and the same. Hence, while I am officially diagnosed with Asperger's, I don't bandy around the term "aspie". To hell with those California commie America-hating shrinks. I'm autisitc.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
Well (2.25 / 4) (#199)
by Pholostan on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:18:17 PM EST

Feelings aside, there is tons of science supporting the fact that Aspergers Syndrome is neurobiological. I have a friend whos autism is visible on cat scans. Is that hard enough fact for you?

There are lots of professionals in the field that have done extensive research. Go read it, or better talk to some people in the field. You come across as simply ignorant.

- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]

I didnt say you were wrong (2.00 / 2) (#231)
by Hana Yori Dango on Wed May 19, 2004 at 08:04:03 PM EST

I asked you for links... you have given no links. try again please.

[ Parent ]
You're just a jackass (1.12 / 8) (#115)
by Qwaniton on Tue May 18, 2004 at 06:01:16 PM EST

Dude, it has nothing to do with glands.

Don't go spoutin' bullshit just because you have a complex. I think the real problem is you, buddy.

You're probably a communist, too.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
I have a lot of these symptoms (1.30 / 10) (#33)
by Bill Melater on Mon May 17, 2004 at 10:23:09 PM EST

but I'm just fucking nuts.

You're normal!!! You're normal!!! (1.40 / 5) (#66)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 04:17:32 AM EST

"Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy."

-Nora Ephron

[ Parent ]

I have a better idea (1.04 / 22) (#34)
by qpt on Mon May 17, 2004 at 10:23:49 PM EST

Dying with Asperger's. Have someone tell us how it works out.

Domine Deus, creator coeli et terrae respice humilitatem nostram.

Please (1.25 / 8) (#65)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 04:16:11 AM EST

...Demonstrate this dying thing for us.

It would be really helpfull in following your suggestion.

Could you please rent some place where we can ritually kill you to beter understand the thing you ask of us?


[ Parent ]

If there's anything worse than an Aspie (1.57 / 7) (#157)
by qpt on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:59:13 AM EST

It's a thin-skinned Aspie.

Domine Deus, creator coeli et terrae respice humilitatem nostram.
[ Parent ]

Also living with Asperger's (2.80 / 21) (#39)
by arjan de lumens on Tue May 18, 2004 at 12:10:51 AM EST

Having been diagnosed with Asperger's myself (official, not some shady self-diagnosis), let me add a few points/experiences of my own:
  • Inability to remember faces - I have some odd childhood memories of not being able to recognize the face of my mother - to the point where I would take mental notes of what clothes she used to wear so that I had anything at all to recognize.
  • Facial expressions - according to others, I look happy when I'm sad, bored when I'm happy, indifferent when I am angry. As for reading other people's facial expressions, I am able to recognize smiles. I occasionally recognize other expressions, but not reliably enough to be useful at all.
  • Sensory overload. The probably nastiest part of the Aspie experience for me is the inablity to subconsciously filter interesting/important signal from irrelevant noise (in particular for sound) - I receive it all, without any ability to shut it off. The noise then feels like it gradually pulls away from me any sense of control I have over my mind, forcibly replacing my normal flow of thoughts first with a kind of white-ish noise, then odd delusions. This overload condition is very easily triggered, too: place me in a room where 2 conversations go on at the same time, or near a trafficked road, or the kind of low-grade noise that you find in, say, a classroom, or a bunch of other common situations.
  • Aspie perseverations => extremely high work efficiency (doing, say, programming). IF I am allowed to work on one task at a time with minimal interruption. If I am given too varied tasks, I easily exhaust myself on swapping between tasks all the time to the point where I don't really get anything done.
  • Depression: Low-grade depression almost as far as I can remember (since about age 5 or 6 or so), with a sense of not fitting in, not connecting with people, being somehow blocked by a wall of invisible rules. Asperger's syndrome at least gave it a NAME, and some hints where to go next, and it is searchable.
  • The farther I am from a neutral state of mind, the harder I find it to express anything at all, as if I somehow just jam up.
  • Eye contact. I tend to instinctively avoid eye contact (I've apparently been that way since I was about 18 months of age), and if I try to force it, it quickly becomes extremely unpleasant. Force it and I will remember that you forced eye contact; I will however fail to remember a single word you are telling me.
Some other issues that I haven't experienced myself, but which apparently are somewhat common in Aspies:
  • Odd pain thresholds or response to pain (e.g. feeling pain but not being able to locate where the pain comes from,, even if it is something obvious like a broken leg)
  • Motor skill/coordination problems and problems automating common movements.
  • Odd responses to psychotropic drugs (no effect, excessive effect, excessive/unusual side-effects). Some Aspies report being unable to get addicted to Heroin.
  • Difficulties coordinating speech - from the step of translating an idea into a sequence of words, to properly coordinating the vocal chords, the tongue and the lungs to produce the desired sequence of sounds.
  • Inability to receive information through more than one sense at a time (to the point where listening to a person makes you unable to see that person at the same time.)


Some comments: (2.33 / 6) (#63)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 04:14:20 AM EST

- Faces: I find it easier to remember the way people move than to remember the way peoples faces look.

Something i did: Find lot's of photographs of different people and try to find simmilarity in faces. Most people have something in commen with somebody elses face. After a while you see some distinct patterns. Use those to group people together and memmorize the names of people in each group.
Doesnt allways work, but recognizing faces becomes easier.

  • Facial expressions: Observe them from the side. When two people are talking to each other for instance. Trying to learn about expressions when you look them straight in the face either unnerves them or you. Or when you see an expression you don't get at the momement or are not sure about, ask the person in question about it. What where they feeling and why. Just make sure it's a friend you're asking.
  • Sensory Overload: Go Deeper :). Seriously. You can manage more than 2 conversations at the same time. It just takes more energy and you have to lose a bit of self to do it. If you ever meditate, try to sink into a sort of zen mindset when in danger of information overload. Just make sure you have a small smile on your face or you'll look like a zombie.
  • Depression: Meditate!! Try to find places in your mind where you're happy. When you feel yourself slipping, force that feeling to the foreground. It's way to easy to slip into depression loops.
Same thing when not neutral or highly emotional, do some breathing exercises. (Except in a fight or sex, then just forget about self and move)

- Eye Contact: Imagine a wall just before you eyes and hold it. Seldomly works.

One thing worse than eyecontact: People who wear freaking mirror-shades indoors. I hate people who do that.

- Drugs: Ehrm.. Nicotine work either as a depressant/hand brake or just totaly breaks my concentration for hours.
Alcohol is good. Small dose: More introvert than ever, Normal dose: Totally at ease, most AS symtomps are on hold except for depth of social interaction. High dose: Almost back to normal, except every action needs an insane amount of concentration.
Weed: Great relaxant, good stimulant for mindtrips , the worst thing you can do when there are other people around.

Moterskills, speech, pain threshold: Every hour orso, check what your body is doing. Stretch with full concentration and center yourself a bit. Should dampen those effects.

[ Parent ]

Thanks, I guess (2.00 / 4) (#70)
by arjan de lumens on Tue May 18, 2004 at 04:59:26 AM EST

Tried alcohol - doesn't work for me at all. Basically, the normal flow of my mind stops and I go catatonic, aware but unresposive to anything that happens around me. Not for fear but for absence of any thoughts/impulses to act on. This seems to be specific to me rather than a common Aspie issue, though - the people that diagnosed me had never seen or heard about any remotely similar reaction to alcohol at least.

Other than that, I do get the feeling that meditation is something should to check out further, and that recognizing faces/facial expressions is something that may become better with training - thanks for the advice.

[ Parent ]

Alcohol (2.20 / 5) (#71)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 06:32:18 AM EST

Never saw that reaction with anybody.. Except for insane amounts of alcohol. We tend to call the ambulance then.

Have fun practicing :)

And please do take up yoga, taichi, aikido or something similiar. Stuff works wonders.

[ Parent ]

Try mushrooms. n/t (none / 1) (#232)
by der on Wed May 19, 2004 at 08:10:11 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Sound (2.75 / 4) (#154)
by gordonjcp on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:24:34 AM EST

Interesting thing about filtering sound - I'd always assumed I was deaf in one ear. I can't really filter conversations out of background noise, and can't understand a word people say when they sit on my right. This is OK when I'm driving but I really have to work on conversations when I'm a passenger in a car. However, my hearing is perfectly normal in both ears (or at least tests as such). I can hear really tiny noises, like the kitchen tap dripping at the other end of the house. I can hear little mechanical noises in cars that other people miss, which is good in some ways because I fix cars, but bad because it's really distracting when I'm driving.

Yes, I have a lot of the other "symptoms" that people describe for Asperger's. One of my friends who is a psychologist says she thinks I am probably a bit Asperger's. I still think it's putting a name on a fairly ordinary state of being.

Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll bore you rigid with fishing stories for the rest of your life.


[ Parent ]
aspies and drugs (2.75 / 4) (#155)
by suntzu on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:35:04 AM EST

where are you finding these aspie drug experience descriptions? i've actually specifically searched for that, but never found anything. i kind of have this suspicion that i could have asperger's, but i'm not sure. i think i fit the criteria listed in the DSM, but that also seems like the type of thing where self-diagnosis might not be so reliable. whatever... not like knowing one way or the other would change my life much. but it'd be interesting to know.

but one thing i was interested in for a bit was how aspie's react to drugs, and what drugs they tend to prefer. me, i tend to go for psychedelics. i'd like to see how my reactions and preferences compare. my only really out of the ordinary one is that i think e is alright, but i'm not crazy about it. it just never did as much for me as it did for my friends (even if it was from the same batch and they were rolling really hard). i've only done it 4 times, but the first few are supposed to be the best anyway.

on opiates: never done heroin. vicodin's the farthest i've gone. fun. doubt i'd get addicted, but then, vike isn't exactly as addictive as heroin, so that's not much of an indication, i guess.

[ Parent ]

Asperger's and heroin (2.75 / 4) (#169)
by arjan de lumens on Wed May 19, 2004 at 11:25:48 AM EST

IIRC, I found that heroin thing as a footnote in some books about Aspergers, by Christopher Gilberg (researcher on Asperger's) and Gunilla Gerland (person with Asperger's). (I strongly recommend books of them both for whoever wishes to learn more about Asperger's.)

Other than that, for psyhciatric drugs you may search the alt.support.autism archives for a number of horror stories.

[ Parent ]

Sensory Overload (none / 3) (#251)
by Wildgoose on Thu May 20, 2004 at 03:04:28 AM EST

The best description I have heard of what this is like is to imagine that you are communicating by exchanging written postcards.

At first, all is well.

But then more and more postcards are handed you until you are completely overloaded.

And so you just drop all the postcards and give up.

Classic ASD behaviour.

[ Parent ]

Or (none / 1) (#360)
by greenrd on Fri May 21, 2004 at 10:48:53 PM EST

In other words, spammed by the world.


"Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
[ Parent ]

Eye contact (none / 1) (#342)
by arkan on Fri May 21, 2004 at 07:50:34 AM EST

I have that exact same problem with the eye contact, but I am pretty confident I don't have Aspergers.

I always find myself looking at people's mouths.

/freak


[ Parent ]

That's another one (none / 0) (#347)
by jameth on Fri May 21, 2004 at 02:28:38 PM EST

I wish I could remember the name, but I can't. There's a syndrome where people always look at mouths not eyes. When it's really bad, those people are completely dysfunctional because they can't properly understand other's emotions and follow threads of conversation. It starts with an H, that's all I recall.

[ Parent ]
very interesting (2.30 / 10) (#41)
by coderlemming on Tue May 18, 2004 at 12:20:12 AM EST

My friend's two siblings have Asperger's.  This was a helpful and interesting read.

This would disqualify me from being an engineer or surgeon, I think.

You'd be surprised.  Engineers make silly mistakes all-the-freaking-time.  Can you turn your perseveration into an ability to obsessively re-check your work for mistakes you know you might have made?

I have written--even perseverated on--this article in the sincere hope that someone might better understand aspies and not write us off as clueless geeks.

So what are the clueless geeks then?  I mean, I exhibit some of the "symptoms" (they seem normal to me :P) that you've described above.  I tend to be obsessive, I can have a hard time seeing things right in front of my eyes, I'm very underexposed to pop-culture and such... on the flip side, I think I'm good at judging faces and emotional cues.  Am I, then, just a bit "clueless geek"?  Where's the line?


--
Go be impersonally used as an organic semen collector!  (porkchop_d_clown)

Motivation (1.75 / 12) (#42)
by NoBeardPete on Tue May 18, 2004 at 12:43:43 AM EST

Maybe it's just because I've already heard plenty about Asperger's Syndrome, but I don't feel like this article does anything to make me care. As you apparently have Asperger's Syndrome, I'm sure the whole topic is of great interest to you. For the rest of us, however, it may be somewhat interesting to hear about the symptoms once or twice, but after that there's no point. I'd guess that the vast majority of readers here have heard of Asperger's Syndrome, and are familiar with the symptoms. Unless you have some new insight, or even just a good personal story, this is not an interesting article.

Let me see if I can break this down into more concrete, helpful suggestions. There's an awkward transition after the first paragraph in the body, from talking about the syndrome in general to your specific experiences. I'd work on this transition. It doesn't flow well.

I'd recommend spending less time talking about common symptoms, and typical difficulties, and talk more about your own experience. Don't try to give us a brief primer on the syndrome, we've probably all heard it. Tell us a story. Either that, or actually go into some real depth about the syndrome. Pick one and go with it.

I'm not sure what the point of the last sentence is. You say that you want people to not write you off as clueless geeks. To some extent, having Asperger's Syndrome does mean you are clueless about a bunch of things. That's just how it is, you lack clues about a lot of social life that's important to most people. "Geek" is not a well defined word, but plenty of people with Asperger's probably fit most reasonable definitions.

What you want is to not be written off, for whatever reason. I guess you hope that by explaining that the cluelessness in social matters, and the tendency towards geeky interests is just part of who you are, that it's not something you can be faulted with, because it's not something you have real control over. I think anyone who is going to hold a bit of well-meaning social ineptitude against you is going to do so whether or not you could be expected to help it. I doubt anyone who is going to write you off for being a geek will suddenly become more sympathetic when you explain that it's because of Asperger's Syndrome.


Arrr, it be the infamous pirate, No Beard Pete!

Congratulations! (1.58 / 17) (#44)
by tzc on Tue May 18, 2004 at 12:58:43 AM EST

You're a precious and unique flower caught up in and misunderstood by a big, mundane garden.

exactly.... (1.90 / 10) (#45)
by Ashur on Tue May 18, 2004 at 01:19:33 AM EST

while i'm sure cases of Aspergers exist, it is the kind of problem any number of geeky types would love to put on their resumes. It advertises your super geeky intelligence, while providing a convenient excuse for a lack of empathy or other social skills. In fact, yeah, I think i've got it too.

[ Parent ]
If you know somebody who actually... (1.36 / 11) (#61)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 03:56:42 AM EST

..would want to be an Aspy, please tell him to drop by. I'll set my non-violent tendencies aside and kick the shit out of him.


[ Parent ]
wow.... (1.80 / 5) (#164)
by Ashur on Wed May 19, 2004 at 07:01:06 AM EST

they were so right about asperger's robbing people of any sense of humour. apparently it also makes them into SUPER MACHO TOUGH GUYS. please don't kill me, mr. internet.

[ Parent ]
Another one. (2.00 / 5) (#122)
by Ta bu shi da yu on Tue May 18, 2004 at 07:31:44 PM EST

Never met a person with Aspergers, have you?

---
AdTIה"the think tank that didn't".
ה
[ Parent ]
Try taking some responsibility for your life (1.33 / 27) (#47)
by mycospunk on Tue May 18, 2004 at 02:09:12 AM EST

Instead of buying into some new-fangled "syndrome" that gives you an excuse to be a boorish robot, why don't you stop being a baby and pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

The symptoms you describe are completely curable through exercise, diet, and mental discipline. I've seen these trends in psychiatry come and go--don't buy the hype behind the Asperger's fad.

By the way, these types of "conditions" generally result from a moral failing on the part of the individual. Perhaps if you lived a more virtuous and ethical life, you wouldn't be in the situation you are today.

curable through exercise, diet, and discipline (2.18 / 11) (#55)
by enterfornone on Tue May 18, 2004 at 03:36:39 AM EST

You forgot to mention JESUS!

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
And (none / 3) (#153)
by richarj on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:01:13 AM EST

The church of scientology

"if you are uncool, don't worry, K5 is still the place for you!" -- rusty
[ Parent ]
Diet and exercise. . . . (2.14 / 7) (#105)
by IHCOYC on Tue May 18, 2004 at 04:11:44 PM EST

. . . . is there anything they can't cure?

In truth, of course, diet, exercise, and mental discipline are what's wrong with this country. Every one of 'em means a decline in your standard of living.


--
Iac et Iill, quærentes fontem, ascendebat paruum montem.
Ille, cadens, fregit frontem, trahens secum hanc insontem.
[ Parent ]

Hearing issues (2.11 / 9) (#62)
by grahamsz on Tue May 18, 2004 at 04:03:37 AM EST

I have a different hearing 'problem'. I'm often oblivious to a certain frequency of sound, which just happens to be around the point that fire alarms ring.

Twice I've been in a building when the alarm went off and had to ask people why they were getting up and leaving. I can hear the sound just fine once it's pointed out to me.

When I was in university there was an alarm right above my bed, this one was so loud that it was physically painful to stay in the room - but I've slept through it. I'm not an especially deep sleeper, and as a child was usually woken by my parents alarm clock which was on the other side of the house.

On an unrelated note, I've noticed that sometimes in environments with lots of computers the noise suddenly starts to crescendo until it becomes unbearably loud. Then it suddenly drops back to normal.

Anyone experience anything similar.
--
Sell your digital photos - I've made enough to buy a taco today

On hearing (2.00 / 7) (#72)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 06:36:19 AM EST

I have one anecdote about hearing:

When i was 6 or 7 year's old my mother was on the phone with my grandmother discussing my birthday whishlist. I could follow the complete conversation,  and asked her afterwards why i would be getting that certain gift when i knew my grandmother would allways give me the more spectacular ones. She was quite perplexed since the phone was in the office and i was reading in the living room.


[ Parent ]

Another hearing anecdote (2.00 / 6) (#73)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 06:49:31 AM EST


About not hearing anything:

When at Boy Scout camp, there was a night event, everybody was supposed to get up because one of the scouts was 'kidnapped' by some bad folks.

They told me later that everybody was screaming and running and stuff. They all got dressed up. All went outside to track and hunt the bad guys when one of the instructors noticed they've got two kids missing. The kidnapped one and me.

I was still happily asleep. Or as i remember it now. I went back to sleep. Since nobody was yelling 'Fire' or something else that needed my attention, it was not something to pay attention to. So i went back to sleep. The instructor was not amused.

Something else:

Waking up in the middle of the night, feeling a strange sensation, like the world is drunk, but you're sober. My mind went something like: 'This must be an earthquake'. Then it went: 'Not possible, this is the Netherlands. We don't do earthquakes'. Then i went back to sleep.
Only to read in the paper the next day: 'Small Earthquake hits south of Netherlands'.

Ever had something like that?

[ Parent ]

newspaper editor was an aspie too? (1.33 / 6) (#89)
by dimaq on Tue May 18, 2004 at 10:18:06 AM EST

or newspaper editor were you? :)

[ Parent ]
Check my spelling... (1.16 / 6) (#103)
by Gornauth on Tue May 18, 2004 at 04:10:26 PM EST

...that should answer the question...

It also was on the evening news.. Now if you google a bit, you might even find the date it happend.


[ Parent ]

I was just kidding (none / 3) (#162)
by dimaq on Wed May 19, 2004 at 05:50:44 AM EST



[ Parent ]
Weird (2.00 / 7) (#78)
by enterfornone on Tue May 18, 2004 at 07:47:37 AM EST

See my diary. I always thought my hearing was fine, but I failed a hearing test. The test mainly involved low volume, high pitch sounds - sounds that you are unlikely to come across in your normal day to day. It never occured to me that you could be deaf to certain frequencies.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
I knew someone with Asperger's Syndrome (2.58 / 12) (#64)
by Ta bu shi da yu on Tue May 18, 2004 at 04:14:43 AM EST

I went to TAFE with him. I lost contact with him, which is a pity, because he was one of the best coders I've ever met. Well, he programmed in Visual Basic - but he had and still has the potential to be an absolutely genius C/C++ coder if he decides to ever put his mind to it. He also had a strange fascination with herpetology and used to post extensively on newsgroups - but he appearst to have unfortunately been flamed and baited by people on these groups. In fact, I think he lost his email account once for abuse also... which would never have happened hadn't people baited him.

I suppose that's a warning to trolls. If you bait people too badly, you can cause all sorts of repurcussions in their life. I see many trolls think that as this is an anonymous forum then they can post whatever they want, and it'll have no affect on people in the real world. Well, for most people this is the case, but some people do have issues. I think my friend was badly affected by the stuff that went on in the newsgroups.

So Aspies do have a hard time. If the guy I knew by perchance recognises himself in this - give me an email! you should have my email address already.

BTW, I'm giving you +1FP once this goes to voting.

---
AdTIה"the think tank that didn't".
ה

One of my housemates (2.38 / 13) (#81)
by whazat on Tue May 18, 2004 at 07:58:58 AM EST

Works with kids with learning difficulties, I think Asperger's is one of the more common ones.

Anyway one of the kids (IIRC has asperger's), because he understands how people react to things conciously (as he has had to learn from scratch) rather than sub-conciously can manipulate people and bait them into reacting and has got other kids barred from school due to them attempting to punch him. He can also do this because he doesn't care about the other kids emotions.

So what I am saying is that some of the trolls might be somewhere on the Autistic spectrum as well.

[ Parent ]

On Autistic Trolling (1.40 / 5) (#114)
by Qwaniton on Tue May 18, 2004 at 05:55:08 PM EST

"He can also do this because he doesn't care about the other kids emotions."

I vehemently disagree. Autistic kids aren't sociopaths. Not at all. I'm guessing the kids he baited deserved it.

Which they did.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
As far as I know (1.50 / 4) (#118)
by whazat on Tue May 18, 2004 at 06:13:24 PM EST

My friend who works with the a fair few asperger's kids is fairly sympathetic to most of them. However this one baits all the teachers and support assistants as well as the kids. So I wouldn't say all asperger's kids (teenagers) were Sociopaths, just they don't have the empathic instinct that allows them to feel the hurt they do to others.

Now they may learn and probably most do, but not all of those with asperger's are going to be nice people.

[ Parent ]

"The syndrome made me do it!" (1.83 / 6) (#123)
by Agent1 on Tue May 18, 2004 at 07:32:13 PM EST

but not all of those with asperger's are going to be nice people.
This differs from the general population how?


-Agent1
"Thats the whole point of the internet, to slander people anonymously." - Anonymous
[ Parent ]
Not at all, sir (none / 3) (#133)
by Qwaniton on Tue May 18, 2004 at 10:56:35 PM EST

Exactly. Being autistic doesn't have anything to do with being an asshole or not.

Autistic people do feel empathy. Anyone who claims they don't is an idiot. (Yes, there are many, many idiots.

For an autistic parody of psychiatry, you will enjoy the Institute for the Study of the Neurologically Typical.

The thing is, we accept the term "autism", but not the psychiatric bullshit that goes along with it.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
Why not? (none / 1) (#239)
by J'raxis on Wed May 19, 2004 at 11:01:21 PM EST

He didn’t say autistics were sociopaths, he just said that one was. If there are autistics, and there are sociopaths, unless there’s something about one condition that mutually excludes the other, there’s no reason you can’t have autistic sociopaths.

— J’raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]
[ Parent ]

I'll give you that one. (1.25 / 4) (#255)
by Qwaniton on Thu May 20, 2004 at 03:21:40 AM EST

Since I'm one of those autistic trolls, myself. Or am I?
I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
do you have any idea? (1.94 / 19) (#84)
by codejack on Tue May 18, 2004 at 08:08:58 AM EST

how hard it is to be a troll? huh? you "normals" have no idea the kind of pressures and stresses facing we of the trollish persuasion. do you think we want to mercilessly bait and taunt you fools? well we don't, it's a compulsion; every time we see some inane story or comment, we absolutely must reply and tear to shreds whatever distant relation to logic led to such ill-considered forays into attempted pedagogy. And then, of course, we get about halfway through and get bored with teasing whoever it is and just want to cut off right in the middle and...ah, skip it.


Please read before posting.

[ Parent ]
Reenactment of what gets the grease (2.00 / 18) (#74)
by K5 ASCII reenactment players on Tue May 18, 2004 at 07:08:29 AM EST

      ___
     / | \  *squeak*
    /\ | /\   *squeak*
   /  \|/  \    *squeak*
   ----O----
   \  /|\  /
    \/ | \/
     \_|_/


A box kite? [nt] (none / 2) (#256)
by Zerotime on Thu May 20, 2004 at 04:01:16 AM EST



---
"I live by the river
With my mother, in a house
She washes, I cook
And we never go out."

[ Parent ]
TIE Fighter [NT] (3.00 / 4) (#258)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Thu May 20, 2004 at 05:00:41 AM EST



[ Parent ]
A sphincter? (none / 0) (#433)
by A55M0NKEY on Wed May 26, 2004 at 03:44:05 PM EST

I saw in the latest Adam and Eve catalogue 'Sphincterine: Listerine for your butthole' They also had Sphincterine butt mints.

[ Parent ]
An eight-sided die? (none / 0) (#434)
by Jay Digital on Thu May 27, 2004 at 04:20:20 PM EST



[ Parent ]
My wife often calls me autistic (1.80 / 5) (#88)
by simul on Tue May 18, 2004 at 09:45:14 AM EST

When I start talking fast, riffing on a particular topic and getting obsessed, she says "Is that your autism speaking?"

I think it, sort of, is.

I guess I've written enough USENET/BBS posts to qualify, about 2400 or so in the last year. But I know some people who post 10 times that.

Perhaps that should be a formal defintion of Asperger's. If the total average monthly number of USENET/BBS posts exceeds 200, then you've got the syndrome.

Heh.

Read this book - first 24 pages are free to browse - it rocks

+1 FP Unadulterated Genius (1.12 / 8) (#93)
by sllort on Tue May 18, 2004 at 11:46:47 AM EST

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=perseverations
--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
Perseveration Has Another Meaning for Aspies (1.50 / 4) (#99)
by NeantHumain on Tue May 18, 2004 at 02:57:51 PM EST

For people with high-functioning autism and Asperger's syndrome, perseverations take the form of an all-consuming interest in something. Perseveration as defined in that link is closer to the perseverations of low-functioning autistics and people with certain mental incapacities.


I hate my sig.


[ Parent ]
R0R U CNAT TROWLE MEEE!!!111 (1.12 / 8) (#100)
by sllort on Tue May 18, 2004 at 03:04:07 PM EST


--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]
Admittedly, his usage of the word is off (none / 1) (#176)
by wurp on Wed May 19, 2004 at 02:12:20 PM EST

Or at least it's used in a very specific way, probably particular to the Aperger's sub-culture.  I would say it's an error to use it that way in something written for the general public.

However, it does fit with the definition at http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=perseverations
---
Buy my stuff
[ Parent ]

Indeed. (none / 0) (#235)
by ubernostrum on Wed May 19, 2004 at 09:58:10 PM EST

Either he spent way too much time getting into character, or he actually is hyperlexic, which is one of the symptoms of AS.


--
You cooin' with my bird?
[ Parent ]
Can you choose your perseverations? (1.87 / 8) (#97)
by nlscb on Tue May 18, 2004 at 02:31:20 PM EST

I know this may sound overly simplistic, but could you choose to have a perseveration about pop stars or movie stars? Or does it just happen? I doubt this would help much with being sociable (that has more to do with one how acts than anything one knos), but it could come in quite handy for supporting oneself (though, from the sounds of your knowledge of windows, that's probably not a problem). I used the pop star example just a way of asking if you have free will over them.

Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange

No, not really (2.40 / 5) (#112)
by Qwaniton on Tue May 18, 2004 at 05:50:21 PM EST

It just happens.

It's like choosing to be deeply interested in anything else. You just are interested.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
Actually... (none / 0) (#435)
by Jay Digital on Thu May 27, 2004 at 04:27:12 PM EST

Though I don't care much about movie stars, I have something of a perseveration (hope I'm using that word correctly) for voice actors, especially in anime. I find it interesting, for example, how the same person can do the voice of two characters who are completely different in voice, appearance and personality, or how famous people have done voices for other characters.

[ Parent ]
This is annoying (1.72 / 11) (#120)
by regeya on Tue May 18, 2004 at 06:44:03 PM EST

Why must all forms of mildly abnormal behavior be classified as "syndromes"? I suppose next you'll tell me there's a drug to cure me of my ills. That's just what I need. :-P

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]

Another person to miss the mark (2.27 / 11) (#121)
by Ta bu shi da yu on Tue May 18, 2004 at 07:25:21 PM EST

I guess you've never met someone with Aspergers Syndrome. Had you actually met a sufferer I doubt you would have made this comment.

There's nothing "mild" about Asbergers.

---
AdTIה"the think tank that didn't".
ה
[ Parent ]

omghax... (1.66 / 9) (#126)
by Ta bu shi da yu on Tue May 18, 2004 at 07:55:19 PM EST

... why the zeros? It's not like I'm abusing the people. You merely disagree with me and wish to discourage me. Instead, you've decided to become a censor and rate me with zeros.

Why???

---
AdTIה"the think tank that didn't".
ה
[ Parent ]

I'm afraid I agree with regeya. (1.66 / 6) (#130)
by porkchop_d_clown on Tue May 18, 2004 at 10:17:43 PM EST

All you've done is describe someone with a bookish personality.

I read 168 books over 10 weeks once. It wasn't a particularly special time - I just decided to count them.

I do the clown thing because I needed something that would force me to get out and interact with other people.

And I resent being told that my personality is like a disease rather than just being part of who I am.

Will we line up for Grand Theft Auto 5 if it's the exact same thing, only with prettier texture-mapped bruises on the whores? -- David Wong
[ Parent ]

Autism is not a disease (none / 3) (#144)
by Qwaniton on Wed May 19, 2004 at 12:57:17 AM EST

This is the problem. Asperger's Syndrome is being equated with "disease" and "suffering". There is nothing "diseased" about being autistic. It's the way you were born, the way you are, the way you always will be. There's nothing wrong with it. You're just different.

Yes, autism is real. No, autism is not an "illness".

AUTISM IS JUST WHO YOU ARE.

You see, kid, none of us autistics like being told we're "diseased", and very few of us get through April, autism awareness month, without foaming at the mouth.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
When it gets listed in medical manuals (none / 3) (#172)
by porkchop_d_clown on Wed May 19, 2004 at 12:51:40 PM EST

and investigated by medical researchers - exactly what is the difference?

This is just one more class of victims asking me to sign up. Sorry - I will be who I am and do the best that I can and I will not lean on labels to "explain" why I don't get laid as often as I'd like.

Will we line up for Grand Theft Auto 5 if it's the exact same thing, only with prettier texture-mapped bruises on the whores? -- David Wong
[ Parent ]

Duh (none / 1) (#247)
by dn on Thu May 20, 2004 at 12:47:32 AM EST

Every disorder is a spectrum. For some people it is a mild characteristic, for others it is a disabling extreme. The existence of the extreme end generates the medical interest.

    I ♥
TOXIC
WASTE

[ Parent ]

And in this case the "extreme end" is (none / 1) (#264)
by porkchop_d_clown on Thu May 20, 2004 at 07:43:38 AM EST

within the normal variation of a human population and therefore meaningless.

Will we line up for Grand Theft Auto 5 if it's the exact same thing, only with prettier texture-mapped bruises on the whores? -- David Wong
[ Parent ]
Normal? (none / 0) (#290)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Thu May 20, 2004 at 05:30:34 PM EST

Really? Gezz...I hope you have some stats to back-up a claim like that rather than just pulling it put your ass.

[ Parent ]
No problem. (none / 1) (#333)
by porkchop_d_clown on Thu May 20, 2004 at 11:55:39 PM EST

Here's a website that lists people who meet the description of Asperger's Syndrome.


Will we line up for Grand Theft Auto 5 if it's the exact same thing, only with prettier texture-mapped bruises on the whores? -- David Wong
[ Parent ]
no (1.80 / 5) (#131)
by regeya on Tue May 18, 2004 at 10:44:10 PM EST

What you've described is a geeky introvert. That's not normal, therefore we need to classify it as a syndrome. That's all I got out of the article.

I've suffered from bouts of depression, hear high-pitched noises, can't focus because of it, and though the sound of a TV picture tube from a great distance grabs my attention, there are times that a person can be talking to me and I have no idea what they're saying. Should I go get drugged now?

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

PSST, you probably have Asperger's too (2.14 / 7) (#143)
by Qwaniton on Wed May 19, 2004 at 12:54:13 AM EST

You're probably autistic. But, AUTISTIC PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE DRUGGED. There is nothing more harmful to an autistic person than psychiatric drugs.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
Thanks. (2.00 / 4) (#203)
by regeya on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:42:42 PM EST

Am I allowed to have my opinion that I find it offensive that someone's labeled me with a syndrome, or are people still going to be immature and try to hide it? And am I allowed to think that it's largely B.S. and express my opinion, or did I get my opinion wrong again?

Sometimes I think kuro5hin is frequented by the most intolerant people on the Internet.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

I don't just think it. (none / 0) (#338)
by Ta bu shi da yu on Fri May 21, 2004 at 04:08:58 AM EST

I know it. I'm rather afraid I'm one of them. That's one of the reason's I didn't post to this site for ages - my negativity is far too high and I tend to slam people through text far more than I ever mean to.

---
AdTIה"the think tank that didn't".
ה
[ Parent ]
intolerant (none / 0) (#418)
by jbridge21 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 09:51:48 PM EST

Sometimes I think kuro5hin is frequented by the most intolerant people on the Internet.

interesting, that's just the conclusion I was moving towards after a while away from the site and then viewing it anew.

people here seem to specifically:

  1. hold on to whatever viewpoint they happened to express initially and defend it beyond reason
  2. admit defeat only occasionally and keep with an adversarial style -- "ok, you win this time"
There may also be a lot of jumping to conclusions before seeing all the data, but I haven't viewed enough again recently to say for sure.

The combination of all these is rather interesting.

[ Parent ]

*sigh* (none / 2) (#165)
by Ta bu shi da yu on Wed May 19, 2004 at 09:26:05 AM EST

Sure, you show symptoms. I don't get it though... let's say I had a dripping nose, felt lethargic and had a terrible cough - all the symptoms of a cold - would I necessarily have the cold? Not really. What I didn't mention is that I'm a 45 year old smoker in the Antarctic who's just had 4 hours sleep.

My point? Just because you have symptoms of a syndrome doesn't mean that you have it. However, does this mean that just because you have symptoms of a syndrome and yet don't actually have the syndrome that other people can't have it? No.

If the guy has been medically diagnosed with Aspergers then that is probably what he has. You telling him he doesn't have it is a bit dopey, really!

---
AdTIה"the think tank that didn't".
ה
[ Parent ]

You need to learn... (2.16 / 6) (#207)
by der on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:57:24 PM EST

... that a syndrome is something just arbitrarily made up by some psychiatrist (or whatever) somewhere.  It is not a disease.  There's no concrete scientific test to see if you "have it".

You seem to think you can clearly draw a line between people who have this syndrome and people who do not.  Sorry, it doesn't work that way.  It's nice to think it does, especially for people who use their cute little syndromes as rationalization for things, but it doesn't.

There's absolutely no reason there isn't a "syndrome" for people who like the color blue.  Some guy somewhere just has to make a name up for it, and it's a syndrome.

[ Parent ]

You miss the whole point of psychiatric disorders (none / 3) (#224)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Wed May 19, 2004 at 07:01:13 PM EST

If enough people appear to share the same certain group of personality traits, and it is causing a large problem to the person or other people in terms of being able to live a normal life, then it is classified--as a disorder/syndrome etc.

If you suffered from bouts of depression, hear high-pitched noises, can't focus because of it, and it's servear enough that you think it's interfering with you life. Then yes, you may have Aspergers. Otherwise, you probably have nothing to worry about. This goes for all mental illnesses.

[ Parent ]

Sure, some people (none / 2) (#217)
by spooky wookie on Wed May 19, 2004 at 06:15:53 PM EST

with Asbergers have severe symptoms and can easy be spottet to be very different from so called "normal" people.

However, I think alot of people are being misdiagnosed. I am not just grabbing this out of nowhere, I have actually (to my own suprise) been diagnosed or suggested to have this by my own shrink recently, based soley on the fact that i am a bit depressed and show these symptoms at a very mild level.

I just think its being over used. Its like "nothing else in the book fits, lets use this Asbergers with alot of fuzzy symptoms"

[ Parent ]

Syndrome ? (2.55 / 9) (#125)
by bugmaster on Tue May 18, 2004 at 07:48:51 PM EST

Not to be blunt, but how is this syndrome different from just being a nerdy geek ? Or, is being a geek always indicative of this illness ? If this is truly a disease, what is the biological basis for it ?

I mean, don't get me wrong -- I myself am a depressing geek lacking social skills, and I always will be. But at least I am admitting it, and not hiding behind a made-up medical label (assuming that's what "asperger syndrome" is).
>|<*:=

It's real,. man. (2.00 / 5) (#127)
by Qwaniton on Tue May 18, 2004 at 09:10:58 PM EST

Well actually...

There is a solid neurological basis for it. It is a neurological syndrome, represented by several concrete differences.

I know this guy; we hang out on alt.support.autism (I'm Dylan Lainhart, for anyone who notices). It's a real syndrome. However, "disorder" a misnomer. Yes, it's a neurological condition. No, we're not "neurologically typical". But there's nothing "disorder" about it. That said, NeantHumain's article sucks a pile of ass. I give it a -1. He's trying to write about it, but he's diong more to hurt our movement for acceptance than help it.

I'll write an article on it sometime. That is, if I get bored with trolling K5...which I won't. Toodles.

P.S.: Yeah, you sound like you might be autistic yourself. There's nothing wrong with being autistic. Bill Gates is obviously autistic and Steven Spielberg is officially diagnosed.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
Huh ? (2.50 / 4) (#150)
by bugmaster on Wed May 19, 2004 at 01:42:53 AM EST

Wait, by your definition, isn't any kind of cognition at all a neurological syndrome ? I mean, technically this is true, but in that case I don't see how geekiness is any different from anything else.

I am also confused by your usage of the word "autism". I was under the impression that autism is a severe mental disorder which makes it virtually impossible for the afflicted person to communicate with anyone in any fashion. But you clearly are able to communicate (at least through k5, which admittedly isn't much). You also refer to autism as a "movement"... Is it sort of like the pro-choice movement or the gay-marriage movement, then ?
>|<*:=
[ Parent ]

OMG STEREOTYPES (1.87 / 8) (#158)
by Qwaniton on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:02:17 AM EST

I am also confused by your usage of the word "autism". I was under the impression that autism is a severe mental disorder which makes it virtually impossible for the afflicted person to communicate with anyone in any fashion.

You can thank Rain Man for that.

But you clearly are able to communicate (at least through k5, which admittedly isn't much).

So? Many, many non-verbal autistics post on alt.support.autism, and quite a few of the most eloquent writers can't even talk!

You also refer to autism as a "movement"... Is it sort of like the pro-choice movement or the gay-marriage movement, then ?

*shudder* I sound like such a hippie. However, if you want to get a better mental image of what this is all about, post your message to alt.support.autism. I guarantee you will be immolated.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
Communication (2.75 / 4) (#161)
by bugmaster on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:16:37 AM EST

So? Many, many non-verbal autistics post on alt.support.autism, and quite a few of the most eloquent writers can't even talk!
Ah, that explains all the trolls then. Ok ok sorry, couldn't resist :-) Anyway, this is quite interesting: essentially, you're saying that autistic people who cannot communicate verbally are still able to communicate in written form ? Is that true of everyone who's autistic, or just some ?
However, if you want to get a better mental image of what this is all about, post your message to alt.support.autism. I guarantee you will be immolated.
You have my permission to post my comment on the group, under your own name of course. Heh heh heh. Anyway, yeah, I'll check out the group if I have time. But you might want to consider posting an article of your own, or perhaps an extended comment -- just to combat these (apparently) false Rain Main stereotypes, if for nothing else.
>|<*:=
[ Parent ]
Re: Communication (2.20 / 5) (#192)
by Qwaniton on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:52:20 PM EST

Ah, that explains all the trolls then. Ok ok sorry, couldn't resist :-) Anyway, this is quite interesting: essentially, you're saying that autistic people who cannot communicate verbally are still able to communicate in written form ? Is that true of everyone who's autistic, or just some?

Quite a lot of them can, but sweeping generalizations are to be avoided.

You have my permission to post my comment on the group, under your own name of course. Heh heh heh. Anyway, yeah, I'll check out the group if I have time. But you might want to consider posting an article of your own, or perhaps an extended comment -- just to combat these (apparently) false Rain Main stereotypes, if for nothing else.

Well, I would, if I wasn't busy in the flamewars over there. There are a couple Brit posters that really piss me off. Trust me.

Also, you might want to read the Amanda Baggs Autism Non-Site. She says a lot of things I want to say better than I do.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
details please! (none / 0) (#419)
by jbridge21 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 09:57:16 PM EST

where can I find more information on these "several concrete differences"?

[ Parent ]
There IS an Asperger's... (none / 3) (#170)
by mjfgates on Wed May 19, 2004 at 11:56:24 AM EST

... and there IS just being a nerdy geek. They both exist, and they're not the same. What annoys me is that the mental health people I have to talk to to get my oldest kid treated for HIS problems keep wondering at me if I have Asperger's when I be geeky at them.

[ Parent ]
If you *be* geeky... (none / 0) (#259)
by vyruss on Thu May 20, 2004 at 06:20:13 AM EST

...den nobody fresha dan you, yo.

  • PRINT CHR$(147)

[ Parent ]
a continuum (none / 3) (#206)
by mexthree on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:57:04 PM EST

Essentially abnormal disorders (which they are classified as, clinically at least (DSM)) can be seen as existing on a continuum from "undisordered" to "disordered". It is possible to say that people diagnosed with autism/asperger's are further along the continuum than the average geeky person with more social inhibitions than most. Of course this continuum is heavily entrenched in social and cultural factors, so it's very much subjective.

[ Parent ]
What about transhumanism? (1.20 / 10) (#128)
by Fen on Tue May 18, 2004 at 09:48:13 PM EST

When we host consciousness on a computer, will this be a problem?
--Self.
your religion is charmless (none / 3) (#222)
by Battle Troll on Wed May 19, 2004 at 06:25:14 PM EST

Perhaps you should consider something more sensual, such as Vodou or Catholicism.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]
Write in (1.00 / 9) (#134)
by EvilGwyn on Tue May 18, 2004 at 11:01:54 PM EST

My mum thinks I have Aspergers but I don't

Hyperlexia. Sheesh. (2.00 / 9) (#137)
by acceleriter on Tue May 18, 2004 at 11:21:24 PM EST

Guess since I had to look it up, I don't have it.

Come on, Asperger's sydrome (1.35 / 14) (#139)
by qpt on Tue May 18, 2004 at 11:26:46 PM EST

Is the most boring psychological disorder there is.

In case you're wondering, paranoid schizophrenia is the most interesting.

Domine Deus, creator coeli et terrae respice humilitatem nostram.

That's so 60's (2.25 / 4) (#152)
by Estanislao Martínez on Wed May 19, 2004 at 02:12:58 AM EST

I've read that the one that's prestigious for contemporary psychiatrists to treat is Borderline Personality Disorder.

--em
[ Parent ]

Damn, you've gotten mean lately (none / 2) (#173)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Wed May 19, 2004 at 01:33:53 PM EST

Is life treating you okay?

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour
[ Parent ]
Wrong (2.40 / 5) (#196)
by Pholostan on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:07:43 PM EST

Asperger¹s Syndrome is a neurobiological disorder. That means that if you fall into the spectra of the syndrome, you were born with it. It isn't somthing that you can "get". And you can't be "cured" either. It's like stating that dogs are "abnormal cats" and should be "cured" back to cats.

Another interesting bit of lore is that Aspies generally differ greatly individually. The syndrome is quite broad that way.


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
Born with it. (none / 3) (#226)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Wed May 19, 2004 at 07:18:13 PM EST

If you read all the disorders, you will probably observe that there is a great deal of hereditary aspects to them. Plus, I have even heard of doctors claiming that diseases like bi-polar and schizophrenia aren't actualy diseases, and that they are rather more like disorders. So I'm not so sure when I read things like "you're born with it" anymore. I think it may be a bit more complex than that.

[ Parent ]
genetic basis for mental illnesses (none / 2) (#243)
by MichaelCrawford on Thu May 20, 2004 at 12:00:26 AM EST

Bipolar disorder is caused by alternating excesses in the neurotransmitters serotonin and dopamine. Schizophrenia is caused by an excess of dopamine. The medications I take for schizoaffective disorder help to regulate these chemicals.

studies of twins who were separated as children, adopted out to different adoptive parents, show that one twin is more likely to be bipolar if the other twin is - even if they've been raised in different environments.

It has also been observed that bipolar disorder will appear in one generation in a family that otherwise has no history of it, and future generations will inherit it, and even get it worse than the earlier generations.

A friend who is a psych grad student wrote a paper that suggested this was evidence that manic depression is caused by a certain kind of mutation, but I'm afraid I don't remember the details.

Schizophrenia also runs in families.

There is a recent report that evidence schizoaffective disorder has been found. Again I'm sorry I don't have the details. This may help settle the question of whether schizoaffective disorder is a distinct illness, or the unfortunate coincidence of manic depression and schizophrenia.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

oopsy - correction on neurotransmitter (none / 1) (#244)
by MichaelCrawford on Thu May 20, 2004 at 12:01:50 AM EST

I'm sorry, I meant to say manic depression is due to imbalances in serotonin and norepinephrine, not dopamine.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Causes (none / 3) (#246)
by dn on Thu May 20, 2004 at 12:26:39 AM EST

Bipolar disorder is caused by alternating excesses in the neurotransmitters serotonin and norepinephrine.
That's like saying a car with an overheating engine has an excess of thermons, therefore thermon release inhibitors should be added to the gasoline. While levels of those neurotransmitters do get out of whack in affective disorders, it is far from clear that they are the cause. This article, for example, tells how a substance P* antagonist (SPA) seems to be a useful antidepressant. A casual web search turned up several other mentions of SPAs that are currently in clinical trials.

The nice thing about SPAs is they work differently than the SSRIs, MAOIs, and TCAs. The side effects—especially the dangerous ones—should be much better.

*A small-molecule protein that neurons use for signalling.

    I ♥
TOXIC
WASTE

[ Parent ]

Chicken and egg (none / 2) (#252)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Thu May 20, 2004 at 03:05:20 AM EST

Bipolar disorder is caused by alternating excesses in the neurotransmitters serotonin and dopamine. Schizophrenia is caused by an excess of dopamine.

But it's really a chicken and egg situation. I mean, excatly what is causing these alternating amounts of serotonin and dopamine?

studies of twins who were separated as children, adopted out to different adoptive parents, show that one twin is more likely to be bipolar if the other twin is - even if they've been raised in different environments.

This is also true for a lot of disorders aswell.

A friend who is a psych grad student wrote a paper that suggested this was evidence that manic depression is caused by a certain kind of mutation, but I'm afraid I don't remember the details.

I read an artical a while back that said London cabbies brains were physicaly different from before they became cabbies when they had to take some special test remembering 1000s of streets and routs etc. A recent artical in the new scientist says that depression has been linked to the amygdada (part of the brain) shrinking. This is evidence of the environment having a physical effect on the brain.

I personally think that mental illnesses are probably both biological and environmental. Of course, in cases like schizophrenia and bi-polar, it may tend to be more biological.

[ Parent ]

Congratulations. (1.75 / 12) (#142)
by pb on Wed May 19, 2004 at 12:27:08 AM EST

You've just (mis)diagnosed at least half of the users (geeks) here. As if we didn't already know there was something "different" about us.

On the plus side, now when people ask an AI researcher why his creation is so literal-minded and "brittle", he can just say "Oh, my program is suffering from Asperger's Syndrome".
---
"See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
-- pwhysall

a few comments (1.85 / 7) (#148)
by tiger on Wed May 19, 2004 at 01:19:39 AM EST

You did a nice job of explaining Asperger's syndrome, and telling how it has affected you.

My own opinion about Asperger's syndrome and similar so-called developmental disorders such as autism and Tourette's, is that people such as yourself have a non-standard allocation plan that connects your unconscious mind (which does all the mental work) with your awareness (your consciousness). This explanation may sound a bit odd, but I have written about it in detail in the Orgasm section of an online book I wrote.

The bottom-line is that I do not see people with such conditions as yours as being mentally ill in any way or as having any kind of neurological defect or other physical problem.

Also, regarding when you say:

Depression is also not uncommon among aspies. My own life has too often been filled with this mood. I was first and most depressed in 8th and 9th grades when my life seemed to have reached a low point. I had recently changed from a Catholic elementary school to the public school system, and adjustment was harsh. The only emotions I knew were anger and frustration. I could only see the worst of intentions in others towards me, and I became the more socially secluded than I'd ever been before. My recover from this strong depression included becoming an atheist, changing my attitude towards life, and becoming more accepting. I still become depressed sometimes but not nearly as badly as back then.

The government schools are deliberately designed to be harmful, as I explain here.

--
Americans :— Say no to male genital mutilation. In Memory of the Sexually Mutilated Child



Holy crap, this guy is fucking nuts. (none / 2) (#307)
by An onymous Coward on Thu May 20, 2004 at 08:54:11 PM EST

Bions? Psychic phenomena, psychokinesis, etc?

And what good is a nutcase that doesn't throw UFOs and an alien race called the Caretakers into the mix?

Whatever, I wanted to keep finding more of this funny stuff to put links to, but you might have a better time just looking for yourself.

But you can also look at his own FUCKING PARANOID LINK to the school thing. Sure public schools have problems, due to poor planning and little modernization, NOT BECAUSE OF WE'RE-OUT-TO-FUCKING-GET-YOU AGENDAS!

have a good day sir

"Your voice is irrelevant. Stop embarrassing yourself. Please." -stuaart
[ Parent ]
Synaesthesia? (2.62 / 8) (#156)
by gordonjcp on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:43:56 AM EST

Anyone else here get that? I can remember, from a very young age, always associating images and tones with each other. A particular shape has a particular sound, a particular sound has a recognisable shape.
When we went on long car journeys, I would sit there humming little tunes to myself. I remember try to explain to my Mum, when she asked what tune it was, that it was the sounds of the shapes of things we were driving past. Landscapes were great - big flattish expanses of moorland sound like a kind of shifting stringy sort of sound, with telephone poles providing a strong rhythm (as an aside, there used to be a stretch of road near Glencoe in Scotland that we drove along, where there was one telephone pole ever so slightly out of place - about two metres or so closer to the next than it should be. This seemed impossibly jarring.) and road signs and road markings were a high, "cymbal-y" kind of cross-rhythm. Really complex objects like electricity pylons were pretty much whole little tunes all to themselves.

Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll bore you rigid with fishing stories for the rest of your life.


Investigate the music video.. (none / 2) (#168)
by Torka on Wed May 19, 2004 at 10:56:20 AM EST

for the Chemical Brothers' song Star Guitar.

I think you'll like it.

[ Parent ]

re: Synaesthesia (none / 1) (#187)
by MikeCapone on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:34:37 PM EST

Yeah, I have that.

Mostly music -> colours & shapes, and numbers, days of the week, months -> colours & shapes.
Dirt & Soundwaves: My Stupid Blog
[ Parent ]
chromagraphemia (none / 0) (#332)
by 5150 on Thu May 20, 2004 at 11:30:49 PM EST

definition
examples

[ Parent ]
But just think (2.33 / 6) (#163)
by nebbish on Wed May 19, 2004 at 06:21:19 AM EST

If it wasn't for people like you there wouldn't be any computers.

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee

Asperger's -> Computers? (none / 2) (#287)
by smithmc on Thu May 20, 2004 at 04:46:33 PM EST


If it wasn't for people like you there wouldn't be any computers.

Really? So Pascal, Babbage, Jacquard, Turing, Hopper et al all had Asperger's? You sure about that?

[ Parent ]

Damn (1.05 / 20) (#171)
by smg on Wed May 19, 2004 at 12:01:08 PM EST

I hate articles about crazy people. After reading this I think I'm an Assburger too. Where can I purchase accessories for the Assburger lifestyle?

Bionic cochlear implants. (2.71 / 7) (#174)
by Fen on Wed May 19, 2004 at 01:38:43 PM EST

I have that hearing problem too that noises bug me. And like any geek I'm transhumanist. The best route to transhumanism is through the brian, not altered genetics. Cochlear implants send signals directly to the auditory nerve! You can turn it off, or listen to truly personal music.
--Self.
All hail the Brian! [nt] (none / 1) (#236)
by Captain Trips on Wed May 19, 2004 at 10:02:38 PM EST



--
The fact that cigarette advertising works, makes me feel like maybe, just maybe, Santa Claus is real.—Sloppy
[ Parent ]
Brian Dommage by Peon Flount /nt (none / 0) (#384)
by vyruss on Sat May 22, 2004 at 04:54:55 PM EST



  • PRINT CHR$(147)

[ Parent ]
Just get on with it.. (2.44 / 9) (#175)
by dmw on Wed May 19, 2004 at 01:39:39 PM EST

Just think, in the time you took to post this article, you could have brushed up on your social skills, joined a local team sport club, or threw out some of those books that have been making you so antisocial for all these years. ;)

I've seen quite a few articles similar to this in the recent months, and although I don't deny Asperger's Syndrome could be real, it is plain to see how easily it could be overdiagnosed in the same way that, eg. Attention Deficit Disorder was during the 90s and continues to do so.

I can relate strongly and directly to every point you made - and I have considered on a few occasions (including there now) whether I might "have" Asperger's Syndrome. But the fact of the matter is, even if I give myself a shady diagnosis, or find a doctor who is willing to do so, am I going to be any better off?

Chances are, I will spend a couple of months sitting in front of my favourite search engine, reading whatever looks relevant and bringing a nice new complex to the boil that does nothing for my life in general.

In that same time (and this is the tactic I took last year), I could have found a partner, made new friends, prevented myself from acting hermitical, and generally just got on with things.

A year on, I can say the above tactic works better than any certificate of insanity or Ritalin tablet ever would. At the very least, it helped me learn quickly (and painfully) what my real vulnerabilities actually were, and what I really needed to work on, not some random "oh my God I must be special I read lots and can't get a woman" theory put fourth by a scientific discipline that probably ranks among the top 10, in terms of least  understood by our species.

Ok, I'm ranting. Basically, what I'm trying to say is, get a grip, go get laid, dance to music that helps you forget who you are, and be a better person for it!

Sorry for making light of your article (it's one of the few on k5 at present which contains anything remotely interesting), but beyond having somewhere new to lay the blame for a life that isn't going the way you want it, I just fail to see what the issue is here.

Again, thank you for bringing some relevant thinking to K5 for a change, regardless of my views, you're one of the few who are actually keeping K5 alive.

-dw

Depends on how pragmatic you are. (none / 3) (#185)
by jolly st nick on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:24:42 PM EST

But the fact of the matter is, even if I give myself a shady diagnosis, or find a doctor who is willing to do so, am I going to be any better off?

Depends on you.

Diagnostic categories have two functions: to guide therapy and to focus research. For research purposes, categories are best narrowly drawn. For therapeutic purposes, until there is some direct neurological intervention it probably doesn't make any difference whether you fit the research criterial for Asperger's or whether you simply have a number of traits in common that pose a problem for you.

Until that intervention exists, a positive diagnostic result or just meeting a single criteria has more or less the same value: it gives you a skill that you can work on and an area to create coping strategies. For example, if you do not read facial expressions accurately, then this is something you can learn to better. If you don't know how to disagree with people in a socially acceptable manner, you can work on this, and create coping strategies for dealing with the results.

There's more you can do with a diagnosis like this than to get people to feel sorry for you. In fact I'd say that the main problem with a diagnostic category like this is that it discourages people who don't meet the narrow guidelines of membership from taking the steps they should.

[ Parent ]

bingo (none / 3) (#221)
by Battle Troll on Wed May 19, 2004 at 06:23:42 PM EST

I can relate strongly and directly to every point you made - and I have considered on a few occasions (including there now) whether I might "have" Asperger's Syndrome.

They hadn't heard of Asperger's in my part of the world when I was growing up, or else I might well have been diagnosed with it as a teenager; I didn't really socialize with any kids my own age from grades VI to XI, but I was a math star, a strong chess player (ranked ca. 1800 at one point,) composing music, etc. etc.

I'm glad that diagnosis was never made, because I can really see how it would have cramped my life. If people tell authoritatively you what you can and can't do, that bounds you in an almost inescapable way.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]

If you have no problems (none / 0) (#423)
by Pholostan on Mon May 24, 2004 at 10:33:46 PM EST

You don't need any diagnosis. The things you describe, however, do not sound like someone with Aspergers.

If people tell authoritatively you what you can and can't do, that bounds you in an almost inescapable way.

You've missed the point. It is not about telling you what you can and can't do. What it is about is to identify problems and work with them. If there are no problems, no need for a diagnosis. It is that simple.


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
I've done this. (none / 1) (#409)
by vectro on Mon May 24, 2004 at 05:15:32 AM EST

I also have on occasion wondered if I "have" Aspinger's. I think the answer is probably no, though certainly I frequently have difficulty with social situations -- a far more useful statement, IMHO.

After having spent not a small amount of time making an effort to be more social, I've found myself in a bit of a different conundrum: When I apply the techniques that I find make people like me, I feel inauthentic -- even manipulative. Sometimes I think I have social difficulty because I'm inherantly unlikeable, which can only be circumvented by being dishonest.

Note, of course, that this "dishonesty" does not consist of lies, per se; rather that the way I conduct myself feels forced and unnatural, and does not reflect the "true me".

[ Parent ]

Stupid math errors (2.80 / 5) (#177)
by dcheesi on Wed May 19, 2004 at 02:17:38 PM EST

"Especially in mathematics, I have been known to make absent-minded mistakes by doing things like 6 * 5 = 35. This would disqualify me from being an engineer or surgeon, I think."

Well I'm an engineer, and I used to do this all the time. I used to be able to complex calculus problems in my head, yet miss the answer because I added wrong somewhere else. Fortunately I countered my tendency towards stupid errors with my penchant for obssesive worry; I always triple-checked everything if I had time (and I usually did).

Nowadays I'm into programming, where the compiler finds all my stupid syntax errors...

Agreed (none / 0) (#436)
by A synx on Sat Jun 19, 2004 at 03:07:09 PM EST

For me it was 6 * 5 = 11 but when you think about it, they spend a lot more time teaching us complex calculus than multiplication tables.  And the sheer amount of simple math problems we have to do in one of those big nasty differential equations or linear matrices, it staggers me that most people don't make an error here and there.  I mean what are the chances?  Whew, I have yet to solve a system of linear equations without spending more time fixing math errors than doing the matrix operations.  Computers are definitely teh goodstuff there!

[ Parent ]
Asperger's Syndrome in Wired (3.00 / 4) (#178)
by Mindcrym on Wed May 19, 2004 at 02:42:08 PM EST

Wired had an interesting article about Asperger's Syndrome a while back, titled The Geek Syndrome.  Also take a look at Think Different.

  -Mindcrym

Living with Asperger's syndrome? Where? (2.33 / 12) (#179)
by EdwardH on Wed May 19, 2004 at 02:58:49 PM EST

Didn't really see anything in the article about actually living with it, more than a "what is AS" explanation. So here's how I live with it.

I don't.

I like online communities. They are an enjoyable source of virtual social interaction. Unfortunately I usually end up banned from all communities I join within either days, weeks or months, depending on what I say. People don't like me so much that they'll actually make up rules just to be able to say that I broke the rules and therefore have to be banned.

It happens every time. I was recently banned from a photography site within days of joining. The reason was that I was too loud and critical of other members. What did I do? There was a person there who was outright lying, and I therefore called him a liar, presenting proof of his lies. I was banned a few hours later.

Another photography site I had joined also banned me because I was "obviously" being sarcastic all the time. In actuality I was never sarcastic without clearing using sarcasm paranthesis or irony-tags.

People's hate for me isn't limited to just the net: I get in trouble a lot in real life too.

I usually get into fights at parties, for some reason or other. The latest party I went to someone just hit me for saying that I didn't believe that the person was from London (based on my observations that the person couldn't tell me exactly where from London the person was from, nor did the person speak proper English).

Fights are common.

I've stopped going out for fear of ending up in yet another fight that leaves my face and fists bloody.

But being banned and getting into fights all the time isn't what's worst about AS: it's the fact that other people continually disappoint me.

Something normal people like to say is "I'll call you", which they never do, or "I'll see you at 15:00", which they're either very late for (>15min) or don't come at all.

People seem to like to disappoint other people, and I don't know why.

And not knowing why is what really fucks me up. It's not uncommon for me to lie awake at night and wonder what I could have said or done differently to make the person keep their promises, or to avoid getting beaten up or banned.

I like to photograph models/people. We usually meet in a park and shoot a few hundred rounds. After going home and sitting for several hours editing the pictures and then sending them over to the models, I then wait for a "thanks, great pictures" or whatever. And I wait and wait and I don't hear anything.

According to my observations of other photographers, whenever they meet one of their models they are usually full of hugs and kisses and lots of "how are you" and stuff like that. Whenever I meet one of my models, if I get anything from the model at all it's a forced smile and a quick wave "hello". After which the model quickly passes me.

I don't touch the models, I don't ask for nude shots, I don't shoot down the blouse or anything like that. I usually try to make chit-chat to make the model feel at ease and give complements on pose and expression during the shoot. "What am I doing wrong?" I wonder, lying in bed at night.

I want to believe that I was banned from those two photo sites in my examples because I was going against the stream: I wasn't in their "inner circle" (where they all pat each other on the back and tell each other how good they are, even though the pictures they take are nothing special), I didn't shut up and didn't mind telling the truth about whatever I was thinking.

I'm brutally honest. People have stopped asking me what I think about xxx and yyy because they can't handle whatever I have to say, and I say whatever I see. If I see that the picture is nothing special, I will say so.

I'm rambling.

I've been depressed for more than two years. It started because I was dumped. I was under the false impression that a relationship would continue until one of the partners died. Little did I know that it was normal behavior to dump a person because get "tired" of a person. Little did I know that I mean extremely little to the person.

That, among other things, has made me bitter. Very, very bitter. How can one trust another person ever again if one knows that one is going to be dumped, sooner or later?

But there are other things that trouble me, other than being depressed and hated by other people for reasons they won't tell me directly: it's the fact that statistically Aspies are lonely and jobless.

That's true in my case: I don't have a full-time job (I work part-time at a newspaper as a photographer and computer technician) and I haven't met any of my friends in quite a few months. It seems that they're always busy, yet somehow they have plenty of time to visit each other and go to parties together.

I don't expect I'll ever have a partner again, a full-time job or any multitude of friends.

A friend of mine which I haven't met in a while has a lung disease which results in him constantly having slime in his throat. Basically he can't run, lift heavy things, etc etc because he's always coughing. We were talking one night a few months ago and he said something that I didn't understand at the time:

"I would do anything to not have my lung disease".

I didn't understand that at the time, wondering why he would give up his pension and have to worry about getting and keeping a job and shit like that.

It didn't mean anything to me, until a few days ago when I read that Aspies generally are lonely, depressed and unemployed.

Then I thought: I would do anything, including giving up whatever piece of shit gifts of intelligence and perseverances I have just to be normal.

I've always wanted to be normal, but it's hard to consider yourself normal when one of the first things people say about you both when they think you can't hear and when you're talking to them is either: "you're weird", "you're strange" or "you're not normal".

I've given up on the being normal thing.

And that's all I have to say about that.


Yea, big mystery... (2.50 / 6) (#181)
by ambisinistral on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:15:52 PM EST

You admit to being bitter, insult people with your "brutal honesty", and pick fights repeatedly (and apparently lose them), and you wonder why people avoid you?

Aspergers or not, you make yourself sound like a complete dick. That is why people don't like you.



[ Parent ]
You've figured it out.. (2.85 / 7) (#183)
by der on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:19:59 PM EST

I've given up on the being normal thing.

Good for you (seriously).  "Normal" people don't accomplish anything.  They don't do anything interesting or worthwhile.  In short, when "normal" people die, nobody gives a fuck (after a few years).

DaVinci, Galileo, Newton, Orwell, Mozart etc. were not normal people.

Steve who lives down the street is, and Steve hasn't done shit.

[ Parent ]

Bingo! (none / 3) (#189)
by Qwaniton on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:39:44 PM EST

Exactly! BTW, Newton and Einstein were definitely autistic. Very few neurotypicals have ever contributed to the advancement of civilization.

By the way, on a tangent, autism is genetic.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
Genetic? Interesting... (none / 2) (#212)
by der on Wed May 19, 2004 at 05:34:07 PM EST

As an adoptee, I'd be interested to meet my birth parents, just so see how many of my eccentricities are a product of them, and how many a product of my upbringing..

[ Parent ]
pathetic (2.75 / 4) (#219)
by Battle Troll on Wed May 19, 2004 at 06:20:22 PM EST

Very few neurotypicals have ever contributed to the advancement of civilization.

Right, right, the likes of Pascal, Roger Bacon, or Gauss never did anything for the world. Begone! Begone, I say!
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]

A great idea, if you're the lonely kind. (none / 1) (#194)
by EdwardH on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:02:33 PM EST

That sounds all fine and dandy until you find yourself at home at the weekend when all your friends are out partying. And you're not invited. Time and time again.

Not having anyone to talk to, not having a partner to live your life with, not having anything to do except go out and photograph. All day. All night.

If you've never been out on the town in the middle of the night (04:00) when it's cold and windy and just look at how desolate the place is, knowing that going home isn't any better, I dare say you've never been alone.

I'd much rather be normal and have friends, than be whatever I am today and have just a bunch of acquaintances who you never even meet.

[ Parent ]

Hah. (2.50 / 6) (#210)
by der on Wed May 19, 2004 at 05:26:11 PM EST

I dare say you've never been alone.

Hah.  You go out all the time and photograph models, and you're oh so desperately alone and secluded?

When you're out their amongst society photographing hot wimmen, I'm sitting in my bedroom, by myself, all night, doing not all that much interesting (probably playing guitar or fiddling with synths or something).  And yes, sometimes I do just go wander around for lack of anything better to do.  So your little pity stories aren't about to work on me.  Been there, done that, way worse than you, got over it.

Guess what?  If your "friends" don't want to hang out with you, they're not your friends!.  Get new ones (easier said than done, I know).

The difference between you and me is you sulk and wallow in self-pity (no offence.. so did I for the  majority of my life so far), whereas I've learned to simply not care anymore, and I'm quite happy, thankyouverymuch.

There's two things you can do:  go out and actually be social, make some friends, find a girl, whatever.. and solve the problem, or:

Stop giving a shit.  (No girls to fuck/love/marry, no real friends to talk to, blah blah, who cares?  It's all bullshit anyway)  Occupy yourself doing something and it won't matter anymore.

Just sitting around, doing nothing about it and sulking is not a solution.

[ Parent ]

bah (2.33 / 6) (#218)
by Battle Troll on Wed May 19, 2004 at 06:18:45 PM EST

Mozart was possibly the most disciplined, hardworking composer in the world; eg, he worked far harder at his compositional technique than Beethoven. He was also a devil with the ladies and a riot at parties, and he spent a lot of time chasing skirts, playing pool (badly) and getting drunk off his ass.

George Orwell isn't exactly my idea of a world-historical genius in the first place, certainly not ranking alongside the likes of Galileo and Newton; regardless, he spent an incredible amount of time and effort getting to know average-to-poor Britons in far greater depth than any other educated person of his day. He was certainly not socially maladjusted; rather, he was able to get along in all different kinds of society. His interests were directed toward society, not toward private languages, elaborate theorems in math, or similar solitary activities.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]

I didn't put much thought... (none / 3) (#228)
by der on Wed May 19, 2004 at 07:29:33 PM EST

... into the random names I dropped.  It made my point, whatever.

[ Parent ]
you didn't make any point (3.00 / 5) (#285)
by Battle Troll on Thu May 20, 2004 at 04:17:30 PM EST

Very few bona fide geniuses are filthy social maladepts, only capable of communication with their PDAs. Einstein was burly, a very capable yachtsman, and loved outdoor sports; Feynman grew out of his nerdiness to become a barfly and samba drummer who did a lot of his work in a topless restaurant. Get over it and go get laid.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]
Hyperlexia, thy name is Battle Troll (none / 1) (#249)
by dn on Thu May 20, 2004 at 12:55:21 AM EST


    I ♥
TOXIC
WASTE

[ Parent ]

indubitably (none / 0) (#286)
by Battle Troll on Thu May 20, 2004 at 04:20:15 PM EST

That's one reason I would have been at risk of being diagnosed with Asperger's, had I grown up in a different environment.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]
To be fair... (none / 2) (#184)
by dmw on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:24:34 PM EST

..you do sound like a right wanker. :)

-dw
[ Parent ]
Make people your project (3.00 / 7) (#205)
by Will Sargent on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:51:46 PM EST

There's a huge amount of subtext you're missing here.  Because you're not seeing the subtext, people see you as being rude.

This subtext is responsible for the lateness you see.  When people say "I'll call you," they expect you to know that they're giving a meaningless social response.  Like "How are you?"  Same thing with giving a time -- unless you tell them that you have to be somewhere else at 5:30 pm so if they turn up late you might not be there, they can mean ANY TIME WITHIN THAT HOUR.

Unfortunately this only works for some social gatherings.  There are some times it's required to turn up late, some times it's acceptable, and some times it's unforgivable.  Determining the situation is where it gets trickier.

Go to group therapy.  You'll be able to talk to people who think you're an asshole and (within group context) explain to you why in great detail.
----
I'm pickle. I'm stealing your pregnant.
[ Parent ]

Sounds like somebody smacked your button. (none / 2) (#229)
by Pliny on Wed May 19, 2004 at 07:37:29 PM EST

This looks like something out of my LJ...

Which means that you're probably not nearly as depressed as you sound.

Still, some advice, it's been my experience that  Asperger's types do best when the people they deal with respect boundaries.

You seem to have done well enough finding online communities (though if you want a tip, you'd probably fit in well in Second Life http://www.secondlife.com) You just need to translate that to finding online people who meet in the real world.

The fun thing about the internet is that no matter how unique you think you are, there's always someone a lot like you logged on somewhere.


Some people get their fix of random violence and mindless posturing by watching the WWF. Me? I read a.r.s.

[ Parent ]
social skills (3.00 / 4) (#233)
by emmons on Wed May 19, 2004 at 08:18:51 PM EST

You probably don't like ambisinistral's comment but don't worry, he was was just being brutally honest.

Think about that for a moment.

People usually don't like being told the truth, and certainly not with at least a decent coat of sugar. People don't like being told they're wrong about something, or listening to someone who seems to know everything. I'm not sure if that's you or not, but one of the most important things about socializing is: learn to let things slide. Be patient with people, and who cares if someone is wrong about something relatively minor.

Most importantly: learn to temper your ego. Because, honestly, nobody cares about you. Or me, or anyone else. People only care about those that they have a reason to care about, for whatever reason. Sometimes it's because that person is nice to them or makes them feel good about themselves. Or because they're family, or because of respect, or whatever. Learn what people like and don't like from other people; observe how people interact, what works well and what doesn't. Think of someone you know who is quite popular. Watch how they get along with people. Try to emulate some of those behaviors and be cognizant of how people react. It's a process that takes a long time, but after a while you get better at it. After a while you stop fixating on how others treat you or if they like you. Then you stop being depressed, and eventually you're able to love and be loved.

I know, I've been there. Be patient, but you have to be proactive. Nobody is going to come to you.

---
In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams

[ Parent ]

Lying (none / 3) (#238)
by EdwardH on Wed May 19, 2004 at 10:55:04 PM EST

There's something in your and Ubiq's comment that I've been thinking about myself lately and it's that "lying" or "letting things slide" part.

I've had several people explain to me that the correct thing to do, in many cases, is lie. Based on my observations of other people's behaviour, people seme to enjoy being lied to for some unexplicable reason.

I've tried to imagine myself lying to a person during a convseration, such as with the Londoner, but come very quickly to the conclusion that it would feel terrible having to lie to a person in order to have a conversation at all. To have to stand there and pretend that whatever the person says is interesting when in actuality it feels like the person is trying to put me down by describing their various sexual conquests, or other such things, is a very disturbing thought.

I'm not much of a liar. I generally tend to call it as I see it, and I fear that it's my not lying, amother other things, that is seriously making life more difficult than it should be. What are my options?

As much as I hate being lonely, I dislike lying even more. The comments I have received on what can be regarded as my life story since puberty have mostly worried me. Some comment say it's my own fault (I suppose it's my own fault my hair is brown too...) while others are helpful and give me suggestions on how to act.

The only problem is that it _is_ just an act. Let your guard down and act natural any people will wonder why you've become so weird all of a sudden.

I'm caught between a rock and a hard place.

[ Parent ]

na (3.00 / 6) (#248)
by emmons on Thu May 20, 2004 at 12:51:54 AM EST

I'm a horrible lier too.

You don't have to lie, unless you consider omission a lie. It's sometimes fine to be honest with people if you're really friendly and make it obvious that you're not judging them, but you have to be careful because different people take things differently. People hate to be judged. They don't necessarily like being lied to either, they just don't like hearing the truth a lot of the time. If something is unpleasant it's often best to just keep your mouth shut. You're doing nobody a favor by telling someone something that they find terribly offensive. Err on the side of safety, there's no good reason not to.

Don't think of social interaction as an act, it's a change in mentality concerning how you interact with people.

If someone is telling you about their sexual conquests or something equally uncouth, smile and nod politely until they're done and then segway into another topic. There's nothing to gain by takig offense or telling someone off. That's what I mean by letting it slide. Don't be so paranoid; they aren't doing it to put you down. They're likely just bragging. Remember my first rule of social intereaction: by default nobody cares about you(1). Why would someone bother trying to put you down? People grow out of that shit when they're 17. Putting someone down takes effort. People are lazy; unless you give them a good reason to, adults won't put forth the effort. The same goes for liking someone, though. People need a reason to care enough to like you.

Be nice to people. Don't judge them. (This can require a major change of mentality if you're the superiority complex type, as I was.) Don't be paranoid. People aren't out to get you.

Stop being scared, swollow your pride and give group therapy a shot. It helps a lot with the 'everyone is out to get me' thing.

1: On a human level, of course people care about you. Friends, family, strangers on k5 trying to give you a hand, etc. Socially though... random people you run into don't care unless they have a reason to. It's not because people are cold-hearted or anything, it's simply a matter of efficiency. We interact with far too many people in a day to pay much mind to most of them.

---
In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams

[ Parent ]

It depends (none / 1) (#267)
by Cro Magnon on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:18:08 AM EST

on what you consider "lying". When my GF asks me if her new dress makes her look fat, I tell her "No, dear, it doesn't". That's not a lie (the dress has nothing to do with it). There's nothing wrong with "putting on an act" and you CAN do it without denying who you are. It's just a lot harder for you than it is for "normal" people.
Information wants to be beer.
[ Parent ]
Most people do not want truth (none / 2) (#281)
by Viliam Bur on Thu May 20, 2004 at 03:46:46 PM EST

First, thank you for these comments; I feel like I had a similar problem, but slowly have found a solution.

I think it goes like this: People invent lies. To protect them emotionally. To look cool in society. Whatever, but their lies have a purpose. They build a virtual reality for them, where they are somehow better. ("Better" depends on what person values about oneself; it could be "more intelligent" or "more successful" or "morally superior"...).

People can go incredibly far doing this. They are even ready to believe nonsense, which is obvious to anything else... but they still want to believe it. When you say "No, it is not like that", this is an attack. It is just like stabbing them with knife, they will defend violently.

Most of people are like this, only few are willing to be told the truth. Actually, it is not black and white. Some cannot hear any truth; some can hear a little, sometimes. I consider myself always ready to hear truth, but yet, it is often painful. Avoiding pain is a very strong force in human life.

Never tell liar that he or she is a liar. At least not before you find out his or her position in society. If the liar is friendly with everyone, an attack to liar will be responded by attack to you from everyone. Most of them will not care if you were right or wrong. Being right is not important. You know the truth, OK; now keep it to yourself, and your best friends. Use it at your advantage, if possible.

Most of people, when making promises, are not serious. It is so often, that it is ("unoficially") considered "normal". The explanation is usually that some promises are not serious, or not important, or whatever. I hate this too. The rule is: is someone breaks a promise once, he or she will probably do it again whenever, without a hesitation. So once they did it, you are warned. Remember it.

If you are not a part of "inner circle", never say anything wrong about them; to them, or to anybody else (who may be their friend or admirer). People want to believe in authorities; and want to believe in their lies too. Do your own business, but do not comment the "inner circle". You can behave friendly to them, but do not get emotionally interested; do not share information with them, just more or less agree with everyting they say. Think about it as a game.

If you are too critical, try this: If you think something is good, say it. Make it an exercise - each day find something nice, and tell it to someone. If you want to say something is bad, shut up. If you are unable to lie, avoid the topic (e.g. say: "I do not know").

The funny thing is that once you give up the "I will always say the truth" attitude, you will find that you do not have to lie so often. One or two pleasant lies to a person are usually enough.

And forget about acting natural. Sometimes, in some situations, with some people, you can do it -- these may be the best moments of your life. But mostly, act. People act all the time, even without knowing they do (and now sincerely: you do it too, in your own way). This is what being "polite" or "social" means. If you act consciously, at least you can choose how. Make a good choice.

[ Parent ]

Snowball effect on lies (none / 2) (#336)
by EdwardH on Fri May 21, 2004 at 02:23:36 AM EST

When you say "No, it is not like that", this is an attack.

Which is sad, because it isn't. It's just me coming with the truth which they obviously don't want to be publically known.

It saddens me to think that today's society is built upon lies and the fact that the truth isn't welcome. How am I supposed to go around and lie to people all the time?

I suppose that's what makes me unfit for society: it's not the fact that I have hobbies/perseverances, or that I sleep weird or don't look at people in the eye correctly, it's that I don't lie and don't like being lied to.

What you suggest, and indeed what my shrink has suggested many a time, is to lie. That is analogous to asking a white man to live in Harlem, call himself a nigger and go around shooting people and saying "bling bling" all the time. Sure, it's not impossible, it's just extremely hard and people will still sense that there's something wrong with me.

People sense there's something wrong with me now, what will they sense when I start acting unnatural? Will I be more normal, or will I be weird AND a liar?

[ Parent ]
you're externalizing (none / 0) (#402)
by emmons on Sun May 23, 2004 at 06:58:10 PM EST

Your shrink is telling you to do what s/he thinks will help. It's not the end solution, that happens later and on its own. You won't know what happened until long after it has happened, but your shrink will be able to tell. Psychology is weird that way.

There's something fairly fundamental amiss, and you're projecting that as an ethical opposition to what you percieve to be a lie. You're also rejecting the notion that the problem lies in you. They're defense mechanisms; I did basically the same thing.

I don't know what caused you to be this way, but I do know that it can't be fixed directly or quickly. These things happen in stages, and that's the game your shrink is trying to get you to play. Play the game.



Oh, and you aren't unique. You like being lied to as well.

---
In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams

[ Parent ]

Lies are pleasant; being pleasant is being social (none / 1) (#430)
by Viliam Bur on Tue May 25, 2004 at 06:36:58 AM EST

It's just me coming with the truth which they obviously don't want to be publically known.

Let's define "attack" as "trying to counter someone's interests". Obviously this behaviour fits the definition. Interests may be conscious or unconscious, people are lying to others or to themselves.

Probably you think that truth is automatically better than lie. Well, why not; but there are also other things to consider, and then you have to make priorities. I think most people think truth is better than lie, but they give it a very low priority. So it ends like: "Truth is better than lie, unless the truth will give me any disadvantage, any pain."

Yes, today's society is built upon lies, and if people would suddenly stop believing them, it would cause big disorder. Telling the truth is putting the whole society in danger. Any truth can be spread only very slowly, so that people can accomodate to it. If you do not want to lie, then you do not want to participate in society as it is now. Of course this makes you socially unfit. Unless you hope you can make other people become like you (and so far, you have failed), you have to go their way. You should start having good relations with people as they are now, not only (unsuccessfully) try to change them.

If you do not want to lie too much, avoid the topics where people lie most: politics, religion, sex. If you cannot, the second best choice is to agree with whatever was said, but also show that the topic is not interesting to you. It's like: "I believe the same thing. (It is so obviously true, that it would be a waste of time to continue this topic.) Now let's talk about weather/computers/whatever!" Some people cannot be stopped this way; avoid them completely.

You worry about possible consequences of becoming normal/liar. My estimate is, that you would end somewhere between you current state and 'normal' state. You will be percieved as different, but not as unpleasantly different. More people will like you, and probably you will not like them all, but reducing enemies will anyway save you from a lot of unpleasant situations. Almost nobody will think you are a liar; remember: fish cannot see the water (also, people cannot read your mind). The funny thing is the more you lie (in a correct, i.e. pleasant, way), the more people see you as sincere and natural.

Nobody knows what is the real natural you. Most people even do not know about their natural selves; and they mostly do not care, anyway. People do not see who you are, they only see what you show them, and translate it to their terms. Show them "truth", they see "strange, disturbing". Show them "pleasant (lie)", they see "pleasant, sincere, smart, good, natural,...". Just focus on being pleasant (in their way, not yours); this makes at least 80% of social relations. Lying is not a goal; it is a tool to keep good relations with people. And since you are a social being too, you need good relations to be happy.

[ Parent ]

It's not lying (3.00 / 4) (#296)
by Will Sargent on Thu May 20, 2004 at 06:13:26 PM EST

Most people, if you ask them if they are liars, will say no.

This is not a lie, because most people see lying as an intentional falsehood.  What you are getting hung up on are incidental falsehoods.  They may be literally untrue, but they are intended to be true.

Therefore, people don't just say what they mean, and never quite mean what they say.  It's quite rude to hold someone down to those standards in social situations, because it makes it very hard for the person to avoid being rude to you.  You see this in dating, where some people will go to extraordinary lengths not to offend by a blunt refusal.

In other words, people want to be able to say no without having to say so explicitly.  This is the subtext.  Thinking about conversation as if it's just the words that people say is like playing chess without thinking any moves ahead.
----
I'm pickle. I'm stealing your pregnant.
[ Parent ]

honesty (2.75 / 4) (#237)
by Ubiq on Wed May 19, 2004 at 10:13:36 PM EST

You seem to think honesty and truth are more important than anything else. Have you ever considered simply accepting the things that other people say, and lying if that's what they want?

If you're so desperate to find friends, how high a price is that to pay?

Just say their picture is really nice, even though they didn't even bother to remove the lens cap.

[ Parent ]

Do Not Obsess Over Thy Shitty Life. (none / 1) (#395)
by Russell Dovey on Sun May 23, 2004 at 12:38:50 PM EST

If you are frustrated with things that you do, STOP DOING THEM. I've got AS, and the things you describe are not a result of your AS. They are a result of you refusing to change the way you act.

Think about it: Who gives a fuck if someone is lying? You are not going to change someone's opinion if they refuse to change it. Let it go.

If you want to warn the others in the group that someone is lying, all you have to do is imply, in a friendly manner, that this person might be misinformed, and leave it at that. That way, if the others need to, they'll check it out for themselves.

Incidentally, why should they believe you, a random stranger, when you won't believe them?

Also, if you talk too much to your models, they might avoid you simply because you talk too much, and that annoys them. Try shutting up. It works wonders. :^)

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

lying vs omission (none / 0) (#420)
by jbridge21 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 10:20:11 PM EST

I too find lying outright to be difficult sometimes. If instead one can get by with omission, it's a much better option. Really though, a change in tone can help a lot more. Instead of being adversarial or judgemental about the other person's stupidity, try telling them very calmly and nicely that they might not be right about something. ex:

"No, you're wrong, it states quite plainly that there were three chickens in the study."

vs

"I remember reading that there were three chickens -- perhaps we should go look it up."

It may at times be slightly harder to phrase for non-simplisticly-factual things that aren't numbers, but this should give you a starting point.

[ Parent ]

oh, and another very important thing (none / 0) (#424)
by jbridge21 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 10:39:14 PM EST

LAUGH more often. it does wonders.

[ Parent ]
Oh, come on... (1.44 / 9) (#180)
by der on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:02:07 PM EST

"I do this, I do that, I'm so special and different, I have... A SYNDROME!"

Why isn't there a "syndrome" or "disorder" for people who are really good at communicating with other people, and keeping up with social things, but completely useless when it comes to intellectual things and actually being interested in something?  (ie your average "dumb bitch")

Because these behavioral "syndromes" and "disorders" are bullshit, that's why.  I have almost all the traits you mention, and I do not have a fucking syndrome, thank you very much.  I am me, and this is how I am.

Do you really need an excuse with a pretty name for being you?


Arrogance (1.50 / 4) (#182)
by enthalpyX on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:16:27 PM EST

I am me, and this is how I am.

Typical cult of individualism stuff. For most people, 'me' is a dynamic changing entity. In all liklihood, you choose to engage in such behavior. Furthermore, with the right motivation and will, you could probably change that.

While the DSM classifications are flavored with a certain number of assumptions as to what is 'normal,' your suggestion that syndromes are merely figments of the imagination is silly and arrogant.

Maybe you'll modify this view if you have an autistic kid sometime in the future.



[ Parent ]
Autism... (none / 3) (#186)
by der on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:29:13 PM EST

... is quite a bit different from this "Aperger's Syndrome", which is nothing but a list of perfectly acceptable (albeit quirky) personality traits.

Maybe we should start designating people who like classical music into a nice category of broken people (that's not popular!  what the hell is wrong with them??)... or people who prefer nature to the city (damn hippies), or people who don't care so much about romantic relationships (obviously have severe psychological issues that need remedying), or people who converse online instead of real life (hint, hint), or.... where does the line get drawn?

Somewhere in between Asperger's Syndrome and Autism, that's for sure.

P.S.  Arrogant?  WTF?  I'm arrogant because I don't think there's anything wrong with the fact that I happen to enjoy learning etc. and don't care so much for social bullshit?  Right.

[ Parent ]

Complex... (none / 3) (#188)
by Qwaniton on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:36:44 PM EST

There isn't anything wrong with that!

Man, I swear...you're borderline autistic.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
Who, me? (none / 2) (#209)
by der on Wed May 19, 2004 at 05:10:55 PM EST

Man, I swear...you're borderline autistic.

Yeah, you're probably right.  Fortunately I've destroyed my mind enough with rampant drug abuse that many of the "symptoms" have been replaced with more interesting things :)

[ Parent ]

Ha! I don't need drugs! (none / 2) (#293)
by Qwaniton on Thu May 20, 2004 at 05:35:42 PM EST

My mind is already indecipherably trippy!


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
Asperger's (none / 3) (#250)
by Wildgoose on Thu May 20, 2004 at 02:40:58 AM EST

My son has Asperger's Syndrome, and through a local support group we have met Autism sufferers across the entire spectrum.

Asperger's may be different to "high functioning autism", but it is also clearly related. To describe it as nothing more than personality quirks is grossly insulting.

[ Parent ]

Syndrome: when? (1.25 / 4) (#198)
by pakje on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:16:09 PM EST

My definition of a syndrome is that you have a certain malfunction which prevents you from taking care of yourself. THEN it's a real syndrome, else it's just your personality. Which you can live with. Mentall ill people have syndromes. I know some autistic people, who are not allowed to drink any alcohol, or they would freak out, and who are certainly incapable of doing some basic things like prepare dinner, but are extremely good at other things. One of them has even got a degree in physics.

[ Parent ]
I like that definition (2.00 / 4) (#211)
by der on Wed May 19, 2004 at 05:31:04 PM EST

... especially the "taking care of yourself" part.

Not being very good at talking to people or making friends is not a big fucking deal, and coming up with a "syndrome" to explain and rationalize it is pathetic.

Of course, the billions of dollars the drug companies make when they come up with a pill to "fix" you is a BFD to them......

[ Parent ]

That's what the manual (DSM) says, you twit! :) (none / 0) (#396)
by Russell Dovey on Sun May 23, 2004 at 12:49:26 PM EST

Gah. Nothing like an argument between two people who agree completely.

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

Which is how it's supposed to work (none / 2) (#245)
by tallest on Thu May 20, 2004 at 12:09:27 AM EST

You can self diagnose yourself as depressed, or as suffering from a personality disorder (or get some quack psychologist eager to try to cure you for hundreds an hour to do it for you) quite easily. What most people seem to miss when they "see themselves" in the DSM descriptions of mental disorders is that the symptoms described have to result in a moderate to severe impairment in your ability to function. In the "can't hold down a job because I keep thinking that the aliens are controlling my boss", or "can't get together the energy and motivation to take a shower for weeks on end" kind of way. A feeling of sadness resulting in the consumption of ben & jerry's while listening to depressing music is not a severe impairment in functioning, despite what the drug companies want you to think.

[ Parent ]
In some societies like Australia (none / 1) (#354)
by richarj on Fri May 21, 2004 at 08:51:43 PM EST

The drug companies are not allowed to advertise products like that. I tell people that I take SSRI's and they think the drug companies brainwashed me into it, but there are no ads for these drugs. The only way I can find out is from a physcician or on the Internet.

And yes you are very right that there is a huge difference between thinking you have a disorder and actually suffering from one. What pisses me off though is those who are saying to the suffering that you just read it up in the DSM and think you have it. Those people really piss me off. Sure some people imagine they have these diseases but they are far outweighed by the number of silent sufferers. Then when an article like this comes out the idiots just jump on the it's not real because anyone could have those symptoms bandwagon, without realising that if you did suffer from those symptoms your life would be very difficult. I wouldn't wish my disorder on anyone, it's that bad. It would be interesting to find out what the suicide rate from it is.



"if you are uncool, don't worry, K5 is still the place for you!" -- rusty
[ Parent ]
It a shape of awareness (1.75 / 4) (#191)
by limivore on Wed May 19, 2004 at 03:45:09 PM EST

I'm a tinkertoy (legos are flat squaresville) obsessive large-vocab socially awkward scifi guy coder (see www.fleen.org).
I've studied shapes of awareness extensively from my personal angle. It's one of my BIG obsessions. RAJA YOGA has much light to shed on this subject.
 Consider that autism/asperger's = "habitual state of focus". Consider an "invisible self", with a shape that follows habit, induced by environment and whatever.
Consider studying the act of doing things consciously with this "invisible body", like the act of FOCUS. It's heavy. I recommend it.
PS: Being an autistic/asperger is to live in a brightly lit phonebooth. You see clearly but not far. It's better to get over it. The world of people is great and there's a HELL of alot of other amazing stuff too. In fact, everybody suffers from a degree of habitual-focus/aspergers/whatever. It's a universal thing, only the flavor and degrees differ.
Defocus today.

can you explain more (none / 0) (#421)
by jbridge21 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 10:26:06 PM EST

what particular shapes of awareness you're talking about?

[ Parent ]
shapes of awareness (none / 1) (#428)
by limivore on Tue May 25, 2004 at 01:17:02 AM EST

   First let me make what I mean by 'awareness' crystal clear.
   Consider the thing called 'attention'.
   Imagine that you're reading a book and the radio's on.
   You're reading the book. Your attention is on the book, the words, the story. You're so into the story that 5 songs go by on the radio and and you don't even notice.
   Then your favorite song comes on the radio.
   It catches your attention.
   Suddenly you are no longer reading the book.
   Instead, you are listening to the song.
   You've done this without moving a muscle, without even taking your eyes off the page.
   You've moved your attention from the book to the song.
   Understand what I mean when I refer to your ATTENTION?
   So This attention thing. It's a strange thing.
   You can FOCUS it.
   You can CHOOSE to focus it on this or that.
   You can RELAX your focus, refraining from focussing.
   You can divide your focus between several things.
   You can have your attention COUGHT by something, like an interesting sound or an itch on your back. Or an obsession, or a thing that you desire.
   How many things have a grip on your attention RIGHT NOW?
   There are things that you ALWAYS seem to have your attention on to some degree, like the ideas in your mind, or the sounds coming in your ears.
   There are things that you put your attention on out of HABIT.
   Focussing your attention on a thing with intensity seems to exclude other things from your perspective. A kind of tunnel vision occurs. Focussing intensely on A seems to cause an ignorance or BLINDNESS to B.
   There is only so much attention in your ATTENTION BUDGET to go around. It's hard to attend to a dozen complicated things at the same time.
   Consider everything that you habitually have your attention on, like the feeling of your body, the perceptual stuff coming in through your senses, the idea in your head, your memories. This overall DEPLOYMENT OF YOUR ATTENTION  is what I would call YOUR AWARENESS.
   It's like a cloud: denser here, thinner there, focusses here, almost nonexistant there, totally nonexistant over in this other place. Or a budget: $100 for food, $30 for bus tokens, $2 for glue...
   Consider that, given the various habits/proclivities/philosophies/cultural-programming that people are burdened with, the manner in which people spend their ATTENTION BUDGET can vary far and wide. This STYLE OF AWARENESS-DEPLOYMENT is what I would call a SHAPE OF AWARENESS.
   Consider somebody who spends 99% of their attention budget on their thoughts about baseball cards. He'd have very little attention to spend on the sights and sounds streaming in through his senses. He'd have very little to spend on gracefully moving his body or engaging with other humans. He'd be a wretch, but a whiz at batting statistics.
   It seems especially important to me to consider the phenomenon of focus-induced tunnel vision. I mean, it's impossibe to account for that which you are blind to. How blind are you?

[ Parent ]
My thoughts.. (1.20 / 5) (#195)
by undermyne on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:03:39 PM EST

can be found here.

"You're an asshole. You are the greatest troll on this site." Some nullo

Repost: Write in for poll. (1.22 / 9) (#197)
by undermyne on Wed May 19, 2004 at 04:08:01 PM EST

I have poor self esteem and self-control issues and I am looking for a "syndrome" to excuse it.

"You're an asshole. You are the greatest troll on this site." Some nullo

life is hard (2.70 / 10) (#213)
by conglottenese on Wed May 19, 2004 at 05:34:14 PM EST

I think that the world is not normal, and anyone who manages to fool a certain subset of the people they run into on any given day into thinking they are normal is accomplishing some feat of great skill, honed by years of practice.

One great thing about going to a shrink and rapping your particular difficulties into the closest match of simptoms is that you can sort of breathe a sigh of relief and say "thank god, I'm not normal, just like I always thought, and I have some doctor's note to prove it.

I really wonder what percentage of the population could go to a shrink, honestly divulge their insecurities and difficulties, and not be diagnosed with some kind of disorder.

There's just a lot of aggression going on in the world and people seem to be cutting each other less and less slack, and anyone who is having trouble living the life of their dreams (everyone?) could find plenty of reasons, neurological, glandular, whatever, and all these explanations are perfectly fine and valid and may help a lot, but ulitimately don't address the real problem which is an intolerant and demanding and demeaning world that many people will not succeed in, and even those who succeed may not be happy about where they are in life.

Look at this site, a lot of people take the art of criticism to the level of ultra-violence.

We have to soothe our battered souls with some sort of explanation of why everybody doesn't just love us.

Just my particular manic-depressive ADD POV.

it's an old story (2.00 / 4) (#215)
by limivore on Wed May 19, 2004 at 06:04:07 PM EST

Cranky ugly guys who were geniuses with their hands and made beautiful things for the gods = dwarves. Check out your norse mythology. It's a kind of person that's been around for a while.
Also, I posted earlier about it being a "shape of awareness". I'm serious about that. I've made significan observations. Anybody else got experience in meditation? (samatha, vipassana, choiceless awareness, concentration, asamprajanata dyhana,...)?? Anybody else looked in this direction?

smug much? (2.00 / 11) (#216)
by Battle Troll on Wed May 19, 2004 at 06:10:29 PM EST

In contrast, I have a deficit of knowledge about today's pop stars, actors, and social gossip. This sometimes makes it hard for people to have interesting conversations with me.

You don't have to have Asperger's syndrome to open a damn book. But way to imply that the neurotypicals are really superficial idiots and to congratulate yourself on not being like those losers.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD

It is amazing aint it... (2.50 / 4) (#230)
by ambisinistral on Wed May 19, 2004 at 07:55:00 PM EST

...that geeks, self-proclaimed brainiacs that they are, can't figure out that mocking other people's interests is gonna lead to you getting ostrocized and the crap beat out of you from time to time.

If you get off of your high horse over being the next Einstein in the making and actually TALK to those poor stupid "normal" folks you might be surprised at the wide range of interests and skills those people have. Truth be told, a good number of them are going to contribute a whole hell of a lot more to the world than the average Star Trek trivia spouting geek ever will.

It is amazing how easy the social game is if you respect other people.



[ Parent ]
Respect + Dislike of Interests (2.75 / 4) (#273)
by jameth on Thu May 20, 2004 at 12:24:17 PM EST

I have plenty of friends with completely different interests. We know there are things one of us likes and the other hates, and that's okay. We're even honest about it. They start talking about something boring, and I tell them I honestly don't know what they're talking about and am not really interested in ever knowing. The thing is, most people don't mind. They say the same thing back, on occasion, and we waste less time talking about stupid shit that only matters to one of us.

Works fine, even though I do think that half their life if boring.

[ Parent ]

Wrong (none / 1) (#274)
by idiot boy on Thu May 20, 2004 at 01:55:52 PM EST

Much as I had got a laugh off your comment, you're wrong. There certainly is an implication there, only it's not the one you're talking about.

It's simply that pop stars, actors and social gossip are all subjects that go to relationships between people. AS types and the like are simply somewhat disconnected from that world and hence don't have a great interest.

That being said, there is an argument that once a sufferer has understood and acknowledged that fact, their willingness or otherwise to engage themselves with those worlds is indicitive of their desire to overcome some aspects of their social exclusion.

Typically of a socially orientated NT, you've chosen the social interpretation rather than the literal. I'm kind of taking the piss here but the point is sound.

--
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself
[ Parent ]

hmm (none / 3) (#283)
by Battle Troll on Thu May 20, 2004 at 04:11:17 PM EST

Typically of a socially orientated NT, you've chosen the social interpretation rather than the literal.

Socially oriented NT, am I? Better watch those labels. I haven't been to a party since this time last year and I post to k5.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]

and you're called Battle Troll (none / 1) (#289)
by idiot boy on Thu May 20, 2004 at 04:55:24 PM EST

Know the feeling.

--
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself
[ Parent ]
This subject keeps coming up over and over... (1.30 / 13) (#220)
by freddie on Wed May 19, 2004 at 06:21:47 PM EST

k5'ers are still virgins at age 45

k5'ers making up all sorts of illnesseses ADD/Asperger's/Autism to make up for their social shortcomings

if you got social problems, the reason is probably because most people are mean!  They are mean because the social structure is created by a pecking order based on people tooling other people.  So just make the following two deciscions:

* Take no shit from anyone
* Learn to tool like no other.  You be the mf that goes around putting everyone else down and embarrassing them

Asperger's cured!


Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein

A sign of bigger things (1.80 / 5) (#234)
by Qwaniton on Wed May 19, 2004 at 08:42:51 PM EST

This is but a sign of a vast liberal conspiracy. These godless hippies have infiltrated the government and are now using pseudoscience as an excuse for their heresy. There is no "autism". It is a lie; these kids are misbehaving. It is a cry for help; these kids have been parented wrong, because their parents care more about smoking reefer and living in collectives than raising morally-upright, God-fearing Americans.

This MUST be stopped.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
mindless drone (1.50 / 4) (#269)
by freddie on Thu May 20, 2004 at 10:49:37 AM EST

did you even realize that my post had nothing to do with being a liberal or a conservative, or belief or lack thereof in either God or reality.

it just had to do a lot with society and living life in an imperfect world


Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein
[ Parent ]

Humor (1.75 / 4) (#280)
by Pholostan on Thu May 20, 2004 at 03:17:57 PM EST

I found Qwaniton's post funny. The fact that there are people who actually have such opinions makes me sad and sometimes furious.
- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
This world is imperfect because (none / 3) (#294)
by Qwaniton on Thu May 20, 2004 at 05:36:34 PM EST

This world is imperfect because of the liberals, hippies, and me-generation boomers.


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
Nonsense! (2.40 / 5) (#272)
by jameth on Thu May 20, 2004 at 12:21:21 PM EST

Yeah, most people are cruel idiots who get through life by screwing people over. That doesn't mean it works any better. Here's my three-step program:
  • Keep an eye out for all the shit people give.
  • Stop taking said shit.
  • Do not contribute shit.
Suddenly, you are nice. Believe it or not, people will notice, so long as you don't keep your mouth shut. You can be as vocal and opinionated as you want without giving a lot of shit. Just be honest. It really does work.

[ Parent ]
Sounds like me (2.71 / 7) (#227)
by mrcsparker on Wed May 19, 2004 at 07:25:17 PM EST

I was born with Tourettes syndrome and I have many of the symptoms that you have described above.  I thought that I was just trying to sympathize until read about sensitivity to sounds.  Buzzing of lights, TVs, etc can sometimes drive me mad - especailly old analog TVs.  Cotton balls, nail files (and the sound of nail files) bother me also.

Really, this article was pretty hard to read because I really identify with what you have said - about social skills, language issues (I tend to go on and on about things), and obsessive interest in subjects.

Sheesh. (none / 3) (#263)
by porkchop_d_clown on Thu May 20, 2004 at 07:41:19 AM EST

The stuff you list bothers about 50% of the human race. It's hardly a sign of a disease.

Will we line up for Grand Theft Auto 5 if it's the exact same thing, only with prettier texture-mapped bruises on the whores? -- David Wong
[ Parent ]
Yea, you are right (none / 3) (#266)
by mrcsparker on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:07:46 AM EST

I read more about it, and I doubt that I suffer from  it.  Forgive me, I had read the article after two days of work and very little sleep.  I have a good social life and never had trouble finding a date, so that pretty much cancels me out.

[ Parent ]
Other interesting facts and experiences (2.75 / 8) (#240)
by EdwardH on Wed May 19, 2004 at 11:11:58 PM EST

From what I've read, people with AS generally had difficult births. Long complicated births, being born prematurely etc seem to be in almost every AS story, including mine. From what I've gathered, AS is brain damage. Which makes me a tard, something I'm unsure of whether it's worth being proud of...

I've met a person with an AS diagnosis: a female whom I've spoken to several times on the net. I found her to be very nice and very relaxed even though we had never met before. We chatted a while and then it was time for her to go. I didn't notice anything strange about her at all, quite unlike the next story...

I've met someone else who says that he too as AS. This person says he get irritated by sunlight, develops a rash if he's outside for too long, finds specific clothing very itchy and has difficulty with certain noises. On the IRC he will constantly tell you some useless fact or other or how he was able to read a book in xx minutes or something or other.

The only problem with this is somehow I don't believe him. I believe it all to be some form of show that he uses to be "different". All teenagers want to be different and "alternative" and I figure that this Asperger thing is his stich (sp?). I can most easily see that people don't believe in Aspergers after having met a person like this because it all seems so weird and unbelievable. It also seems unprovable, and that's the biggest problem with this AS thing: it's hard to prove things people can't see.

I've told him, on several occassions, that he's completely normal and he responds by telling me that being called normal and human is an insult. That's when I get really pissed and only goes to show that it's all just a show.

Do I have to mention he's sort of into this goth thing, too?

Oh btw: cue the "I'm tired, rambling and not fluent in English so excuse my grammar" speech.

Dude, you're a fucking moron (1.12 / 8) (#254)
by Qwaniton on Thu May 20, 2004 at 03:16:44 AM EST


I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
Difficult births? (none / 2) (#279)
by Pholostan on Thu May 20, 2004 at 03:05:13 PM EST

Never heard of it. My own birth was normal.

If someone is diagnosed by professionals, who are you to tell them they are wrong? Do you have the knowledge to diagnose people? Are you a psyciatrist? If not, shut up.

- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]

interesting (none / 0) (#425)
by jbridge21 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 10:41:27 PM EST

can you give references for the difficult births thing?

[ Parent ]
wee~ (1.25 / 4) (#241)
by rambomon on Wed May 19, 2004 at 11:50:47 PM EST

go cognitive labels anyone up for some stereotype threats?

k5 :: more masturbation then a porno site! (1.37 / 8) (#242)
by auraslip on Wed May 19, 2004 at 11:57:33 PM EST


124
Humour (2.20 / 5) (#257)
by sergej on Thu May 20, 2004 at 04:57:10 AM EST

I'm very curious about the humour aspect. Can I read the so-called humourous writing by people with the syndrom somewhere? I didn't find any humour in this article. How about not taking yourself so god-damn serious? Have you ever thought that this could be the reason why people consider you boring?

You mention highly sarcastic humour. I'd say that's a mild form of hate. Do you really think critisizing others is supposed to be funny?


You can't teach yourself a sense of humor. (none / 3) (#262)
by porkchop_d_clown on Thu May 20, 2004 at 07:39:41 AM EST

Not really.

Will we line up for Grand Theft Auto 5 if it's the exact same thing, only with prettier texture-mapped bruises on the whores? -- David Wong
[ Parent ]
The hearing thing. (1.16 / 6) (#260)
by flaw on Thu May 20, 2004 at 07:15:08 AM EST

With the high pitched noises and not being able to tell what the fuck people are saying a lot of the time. I get that too. Is it a symptom of Goddamn Nerd Loser Syndrome, or something unrelated that you just happen to be affected by?

--
ピニス, ピニス, everyone loves ピニス!
It's called "tinnitus" (2.40 / 5) (#261)
by porkchop_d_clown on Thu May 20, 2004 at 07:37:52 AM EST

and it's extremely common.

It's usually caused by listening to too many loud noises - such as rock music. I've got it more or less continuously.

Will we line up for Grand Theft Auto 5 if it's the exact same thing, only with prettier texture-mapped bruises on the whores? -- David Wong
[ Parent ]

Explains a lot. (none / 1) (#265)
by flaw on Thu May 20, 2004 at 07:52:52 AM EST

Thx.

--
ピニス, ピニス, everyone loves ピニス!
[ Parent ]
Thats different (2.85 / 7) (#284)
by Lacero on Thu May 20, 2004 at 04:12:47 PM EST

Tinnitus is a ringing in the ears with no external sound source, possibly caused by the feedback the ear uses to boost sound so it can hear it.  It sounds kinda like a high pitched whine, TV's make the same sound.

http://www.bixby.org/faq/tinnitus/discover.html
(ok you say you have it so I'd expect you to know that but its there for the lurkers)

The things the author was talking about are hearing a whining sound from monitors and TVs (presumably the sound goes away when the TV is turned off, which would distinguish it from tinnitus) and not being able to make sense of any sound when more than a couple of people are talking in the same room.

[ Parent ]

You are correct, sir. (3.00 / 5) (#334)
by porkchop_d_clown on Thu May 20, 2004 at 11:58:37 PM EST

You're right - I confused the two. Perversely, I used to be able to hear the tones he's speaking of till the tinnitus and middle age killed the upper registers of my hearing - which might be why I tend to think of them (tinnitus and the TV noise) as the same thing.

Will we line up for Grand Theft Auto 5 if it's the exact same thing, only with prettier texture-mapped bruises on the whores? -- David Wong
[ Parent ]
Not the Same Thing (3.00 / 5) (#275)
by NeantHumain on Thu May 20, 2004 at 02:15:32 PM EST

People with autistic spectrum disorders often have sensory integration disorder. This means some senses are too sensitive and others are too dull. People with this are actually able to pick up on sounds that most people miss.

Some people have this to such an extent they can't concentrate because they hear the buzzing of electrical wiring, the whirring of the ceiling fan, or numerous other things. I have this in so mild a form I wouldn't consider it to be problematic. For other aspies, it can create real hardships, though.


I hate my sig.


[ Parent ]
Argh. (1.53 / 13) (#268)
by Magnetic North on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:20:51 AM EST

I'm so fed up with this fucking ego game. Here's the deal: You are not special. Nobody are special. Your "syndrome" does not make you special.

Play with the cards you are dealt. Never feel sorry for yourself. Don't spend endless hours reading about symptoms and imagining that you have them (belief is a powerful thing).

Blaming perceived problems on "syndromes" reinforces the belief that society is always right, and that it's people who are the problem. This is a lie perpetuated as a self defense mechanism for the system that is society.

Take Ritalin for example, an ok weekend drug for adults. How did it ever come so far that thousands upon thousands of children are force fed an amphetamine like drug from an early age? How did children manage before this wonder drug was administered? How about changing the system so that people can live with it, without being sedated with chemicals to supress symptoms from their "syndromes"?



--
<33333
Darn Right (2.80 / 5) (#271)
by jameth on Thu May 20, 2004 at 12:02:49 PM EST

I fit almost everything that guy described, but claiming I have some random syndrome? Yeah, I used to be just like that, and then I forced myself to change, and now I'm not.

It wasn't some fucking stupid syndrom, it was just me being different from normal by a bit and not really caring. So what? God forbid that I have some trouble with social issues; nobody else has those, do they? Wait, trouble with romantic issues? Ever wonder why the majority of all magazines deal with interpersonal shit? EVERYONE SUCKS AT ROMANCE (except a few players).

Last I checked I qualify for all conditions which are associated with ADHD. What does this do? It makes me hyperactive and leaves me not paying attention to teachers in  class SO I DO SOMETHING ELSE INSTEAD. Yeah, I never take notes and I just write stories and poetry and sketch during class.

Here's an idea: be glad you have these difference. Life would be fairly fucking boring if everyone was the same, so give up on it. Damn.

Rant over.

[ Parent ]

It is not a "ego game" (none / 3) (#278)
by Pholostan on Thu May 20, 2004 at 02:52:08 PM EST

You would deny a blind person his walking stick? Do you think that deaf people wouldn't be allowed to learn sign language? People without legs should not have wheelchairs?

Everybody is special.

In a perfect society, the syndrome would still be needed, as a guy without legs needs a wheelchair. You know why? A person with Aspergers Syndrome will have a easier life with the diagnosis. It is part of the solution, not the problem.
- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]

Hehe.. (none / 2) (#308)
by Magnetic North on Thu May 20, 2004 at 08:57:52 PM EST

That's exactly it, the root of the problem. Your parents lied to you. You are not special. Nobody are. Your life doesn't mean anything in the big picture. In fact, there probably isn't even a big picture.

To get over most mental problems, a good first (and final, if done properly) step is to get over yourself.

I've been close with persons with mental illness, and the most appearant problem they have is that they're extremely self obsessed. Even when they're not very ill. Therapy seems to be about nurturing the ego and wallowing in problems to find the "root cause". Utter bollocks. If it works it's because the patient is told that it works (don't underestimate the power of belief), but only after thorougly traumatizing them with past problems.

Your comparison to blindness doesn't hold much water. While it's very easy to exactly diagnose blindness, the brain is mostly uncharted territory. Our understanding is at the lowest and most mechanical level.

We live in a society where seeing a therapist has become a hobby and prozac is the solution for every minor speedbump. If something is ill, it's our society and this culture of ego nurturing.

Of course we must help blind people, and of course we must help the mentally ill, but believing in modern psychological and psychopharmaceutical treatment, is a bit like believing in the bible. It might cure some superficial symptom, but it won't do you much good in the long run.



--
<33333
[ Parent ]
Mental illness (none / 3) (#317)
by Pholostan on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:32:50 PM EST

AS isn't a mental illness. Is is how a quite small percentage of the population are. People who are aspies do have a bigger probability to develop mental illness however.

When I say mental illness, I mean illness like depression. Untreated depression have a quite high mortality rate.

People with AS doesn't need psychological and psychopharmaceutical treatment, as it isn't possible to cure AS. Aspies might need some, often practical, assistace. And if a person with AS develop a serious mental illness he will need psychological and possibly psychopharmaceutical treatment (like everybode else do).

Your comparison to blindness doesn't hold much water. While it's very easy to exactly diagnose blindness, the brain is mostly uncharted territory. Our understanding is at the lowest and most mechanical level.

My comparision was about disability, not illness. Would you say that a blind person is ill? A person who have been blind since birth? I don't think you would, I wouldn't either. People with AS are just as diabled as blind people are, but in other areas. I am quite blind to subtle messages in social interaction, something that non-AS people sees subconciously. I need to learn and understand such things on a theoretical level, and then consciously look for them. Interpretation is hell.

We live in a society where seeing a therapist has become a hobby and prozac is the solution for every minor speedbump. If something is ill, it's our society and this culture of ego nurturing.

We do? I don't live in the USA, if you are reffering to that. I've read that it is much more accepted to go se a terapist or psycologist in the american society. The use of psychopharmaceutical treatment is strongly on the rise here in Sweden though. But psycological treatment is still something people shy away from untill it is the last resort. There is still alot of social stigma connected to mental illness.

I think I agree with you. We are talking about diffrent things, I think.


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
Ok.. (none / 2) (#323)
by Magnetic North on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:59:54 PM EST

I think I agree with you. We are talking about different things, I think.

I might've strayed a bit off topic with the whole mental illness problem, sorry.

Isn't it awfully late in Sweden by the way?



--
<33333
[ Parent ]
Burning the midnight oil (none / 3) (#327)
by Pholostan on Thu May 20, 2004 at 10:26:26 PM EST

Isn't it awfully late in Sweden by the way?

Oh yes it is :-) My sleeping habits are not normal. It is very common among people with AS that they have a diffrent rhythm. Most sleep much more than normal people, say 16 hours of sleep per 24 hour period. I have on occation slept over 20 hours, but usually I get by with 8-12 hours.

This frequently makes me "turn the day around". Much fun things happens in evenings, so I stay up longer than I should. But I need my sleep so I sleep late. And stays upp even later... and so on. Not uncommon for normal people to do either, I've observed. But as I need more sleep it tends to happen often for me.

Luckily, I have a very understanding employer. If there isn't anything important happening (say a meeting) nobody arch an eybrow if I turn up late in the evening instead of in the morning.

I shouldn't do that though. I know that I feel way better and is way less stressed out if I have a clear daily routine. But at present that haven't been implemeted yet. Watch out for next version.

Another thing that wrecks my sleep is my preoccupation with stuff. Also very typical for people with AS. I might get to work late, but sometimes I never leave. My understanding employer throws me out on a regular basis, so to speak. What I'm doing right now is exactly the same, I thought I just read a little K5, and now I have been posting comments for six ours. Books are another sleep killer. I start reading when I go to bed, and suddenly the sun is up. Oh well.

The preoccupation problem is related to another problem, concept of time. I have none. I've stoped using my wristwatch, 'cause if I have it on me I look at it every other minute like some retard. It also stresses me out. I use the alarm function on my cell phone for important stuff nowdays. It wors by a fashion.

I have friend that only sleeps for six hours a night. More than that and he doesn't feel well. Lucky bastard.


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
Yes (none / 1) (#328)
by Magnetic North on Thu May 20, 2004 at 10:39:37 PM EST

I thought I just read a little K5, and now I have been posting comments for six ours.

Sånt händer, jag vet exakt hur det er :)



--
<33333
[ Parent ]
Bullshit Statistics (none / 2) (#349)
by jameth on Fri May 21, 2004 at 02:38:40 PM EST

"Untreated depression have a quite high mortality rate."

Nobody knows how many people have untreated depression and get over it because it is an impossible to check. If they did not get treatment and get through it anyway, you will never know they were depressed.

[ Parent ]

One (none / 0) (#382)
by levesque on Sat May 22, 2004 at 04:30:21 PM EST

People are always getting diagnosed as suffering from various levels of depression and then don't get any treatment. They can be followed statistically anyway because one will eventually come into contact with a bureaucracy again. As for the undiagnosed and untreated getting better without them being counted, that is not true. Don't through stats out because some people can mesmerize with bad statistical procedures. For evaluating a treatment you have to survey four groups:

not treated get better
treated get better
not treated get worse
treated get worse



[ Parent ]

Two (none / 0) (#383)
by levesque on Sat May 22, 2004 at 04:40:04 PM EST

As for the undiagnosed and untreated getting better without them being counted, that is not true

Let me clarify that: You can ask people who are not depressed if they were depressed at one time, and if so, what did they do, if anything, that seems linked in some way to them getting better.

For some reason I forgot to write that in the above post.

[ Parent ]

Clueless (none / 3) (#319)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:42:53 PM EST

...Therapy seems to be about nurturing the ego and wallowing in problems to find the "root cause". Utter bollocks. If it works it's because the patient is told that it works (don't underestimate the power of belief), but only after thorougly traumatizing them with past problems

Rubbish. Ever heard of Cognitive-behavioral therapy? A very common way of treating a lot of dissorders. Basicly, it is re-learning. The exact same process as to how you would learn to play a musical instrument.

Your poorly though out ideas show that you have no real understanding of even basic psychology, so of course you'd think it's all BS!

...but believing in modern psychological and psychopharmaceutical treatment, is a bit like believing in the bible. It might cure some superficial symptom, but it won't do you much good in the long run.

OK, then please give a detailed guide as to how someone would overcome a phobia, for example. Modern psychology has tecniques to cure phobias, and they work. But since psychology is a load of crock. The please say how you would cure a phobia (and without drugs).

[ Parent ]

Well.. (none / 3) (#326)
by Magnetic North on Thu May 20, 2004 at 10:18:20 PM EST

It's correct that I don't have a very good understanding of psychology beyond what I've experienced with friends, friends of friends and relatives. What I have experienced is pure and utter bollocks though. And yes, a central theme seems to be findining hidden or uncoscious problems.

OK, then please give a detailed guide as to how someone would overcome a phobia, for example.

Ok, you got me. I can't. You have clearly demonstrated the awesome power of modern psychology and your grasp of it. It's too bad that your logical skills aren't quite up to par.



--
<33333
[ Parent ]
What is so bollocks about it? (none / 2) (#330)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Thu May 20, 2004 at 10:50:32 PM EST

What I have experienced is pure and utter bollocks though. And yes, a central theme seems to be findining hidden or uncoscious problems

Care to give examples as to why it's bollocks? And why do you think that the central theme is wrong?

It's too bad that your logical skills aren't quite up to par.

Explain to me why they are not. Because from my side, you are the one who can't grasp basic logic.

[ Parent ]

It's Called Courage (none / 2) (#348)
by jameth on Fri May 21, 2004 at 02:36:00 PM EST

"OK, then please give a detailed guide as to how someone would overcome a phobia, for example."

I'm horribly afraid of the dark. Not many people know this. When I was young, I had a nightlight. When I was in highschool, I kept the windows open and had some smaller lights so it didn't seem like I had a nightlight, but I really did. I still had occasional problems and the fear didn't go away.

Now, I don't have a nightlight. What did I do? I forced myself to get over it. Whenever I got into a cold sweat and my heart started racing and I had an urge to turn on the lights, I laid back down. Guess what: I'm still afraid of the dark, I'm just good at ignoring it. It's not at all rare that my heart will start racing while I try to go to sleep, just because I can't see across the room. I used to not be able to cope, because I was a pussy. It was all a matter of ignoring the fear.

[ Parent ]

Another BS solution (none / 1) (#368)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Sat May 22, 2004 at 03:17:55 AM EST

Thanks for another BS solution, a solution which isn't really a solution.

How does one aquire this courage exactly? What are the steps to make one ignore their fear? What you have just said is another "just get over it" problem. Unless you can break down the process, then you don't really have a solution do you?

I spose, if I said it was hard for an amature rocket scientist to get into orbit, you would reply "just get a million dollars"? If I said it was hard to design a car, wold you say "you just need to draw it up"?
No shit. But the point is that it is hard to get funding, it is hard work to draw up blue prints for something complexe like a car. Saying "just to this" is illogical.

You sound like one of those annoying Slashdot idiots whos solution to poor GUIs in Linux programs is for the user to "just write your own one".

[ Parent ]

Uh... (none / 3) (#295)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Thu May 20, 2004 at 06:02:56 PM EST

You are not special. Nobody are special. Your "syndrome" does not make you special.

Dispite what you may thing, there is a large proportion of people with mental illnesses that simply want a name because it means it's step towards treatment, or that they have something to relate to. To others, they have realised that labels don't matter, because it has no effect on their problem; it doesn't help solve it.

There are people who think it's cool to be depressed etc, but that doesn't mean that all people who are mentaly ill feel that way. In fact, most are very annoyed by that kinda thing.

Take Ritalin for example, an ok weekend drug for adults. How did it ever come so far that thousands upon thousands of children are force fed an amphetamine like drug from an early age?

Just because a drug has been over subscribed, it dosn't mean that the drug isn't a solution to genuine problem. In the case of ADHD, perhaps it's not as much of an illness as they think it is, perhaps it is completly normal. But that doesn't mean all mental illnesses are.

[ Parent ]

No.. (none / 2) (#304)
by Magnetic North on Thu May 20, 2004 at 08:20:25 PM EST

perhaps it is completly normal. But that doesn't mean all mental illnesses are.

Of course not. Then again, what is normal? There is no such thing, it's a complete and utter fabrication. If more people stopped believing in "normal", more people would be better off.

The problem is that mental illness has become a hobby (at least in the US). If you don't see a therapist (as an adult), you're not normal.



--
<33333
[ Parent ]
There is such thing as normal. (none / 1) (#311)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:07:23 PM EST

...what is normal? There is no such thing, it's a complete and utter fabrication.

Normal is what is most common, the majority, etc. Shouldn't this be obvious?

If you don't see a therapist (as an adult), you're not normal.

I think you over exagurate the problem...Unless you have some stats to back that up with?

[ Parent ]

Not at all (none / 3) (#318)
by Magnetic North on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:37:45 PM EST

Normal is what is most common, the majority, etc. Shouldn't this be obvious?

If you're talking about external behaviour, then sure. Then there is a normal, and people who stray too far from that normal (normally when they become a physical danger to others or themselves) must be treated accordingly.

But there is no internal normal. You don't have the slightest idea what is going on in anybody elses mind. Reality is infinitely subjective. Trying to reach a "normal" in that sense is an exercise in futility.

I think you over exagurate the problem...Unless you have some stats to back that up with?

Take a look at the Surgeon Generals Report on Mental Health. Can't be bothered to dig up the specific tables right now, but if memory serves me right about ten percent of the population get some kind of treatment for mental illness within a year.



--
<33333
[ Parent ]
Depends on your perspective. (none / 1) (#320)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:49:42 PM EST

But there is no internal normal. You don't have the slightest idea what is going on in anybody elses mind. Reality is infinitely subjective. Trying to reach a "normal" in that sense is an exercise in futility.

No shit. As I have said in another reply to you. Everything is relative. So it really depends on what perspective you look at it.

...about ten percent of the population get some kind of treatment for mental illness within a year

10% is minority. Also, not all people have a chonic mental illness. Some people get therapy to help deal with the loss of a person etc. aswell.

[ Parent ]

Consider this. (none / 0) (#365)
by mindstrm on Sat May 22, 2004 at 12:34:17 AM EST

Some people grew up wondering WHY they were so different than most people around them.. wondering why they were the only ones who noticed certain things (sounds, patterns), or wondering why everyone else seemed to notice things that they didn't (facial cues, social stuff).

Learning that YES, this condition exists, and it has a name, is not about making excuses, or being SPECIAL.. it's about being NORMAL.

[ Parent ]

No sedation? (none / 2) (#403)
by Intoxicated Rabbit on Sun May 23, 2004 at 07:10:21 PM EST

How about changing the system so that people can live with it, without being sedated with chemicals to supress symptoms from their "syndromes"?
But I like being sedated with chemicals, I'd fake any symptom and gladly accept any 'syndrome'.

Intox.

[ Parent ]
Further Points (2.69 / 13) (#276)
by NeantHumain on Thu May 20, 2004 at 02:43:27 PM EST

Many posters have asserted that I as well as others with Asperger's syndrome use this condition to make ourselves feel special or to exempt our behavior. This is patent nonsense.

The goal of psychiatric syndromes and disorders is to recognize problems and unusual circumstances so that the person affected can develop strategies to work around them or minimize their effects on their daily life. I most certainly did not diagnose myself with an autistic spectrum disorder: Before I was diagnosed with this condition by professionals, I thought autism was Rainman stuff only. For a long time afterwards, I was in denial: I did not want to be associated with this awful condition!

I have tried--as everyone must--to live my life and achieve my goals in spite of the difficulties I must constantly face. I have met people who are more accepting of eccentric behavior and a bizarre sense of humor that doesn't always make very much sense--well, they'll laugh even if it's not funny because they know I'll eventually come up with something really funny. In turn, I've worked to minimize the rigidity of my behavior: I opt to allow others to make decisions for simple things like where to eat and go along with that instead of saying I don't like the food there; I can ignore annoying noises; and I try my best not to say anything that's unintentially rude (but mistakes are made).

Although I don't go around telling people I have Asperger's, I do hope people can be more accepting of a wider range of behavior. Articles like mine should begin to get that message out.


I hate my sig.


heh (2.00 / 6) (#288)
by Battle Troll on Thu May 20, 2004 at 04:48:40 PM EST

Many posters have asserted that I as well as others with Asperger's syndrome use this condition to make ourselves feel special...

Can't imagine where they'd get that idea. Maybe here:

Because of my perseverations, I have a more thorough understanding of history, politics, language, computers, psychology, geography, and numerous other subjects than the average person. In contrast, I have a deficit of knowledge about today's pop stars, actors, and social gossip.
Aw, poor diddums, so smart in a world too dumb to appreciate him!
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]
That's your interpretation (none / 2) (#303)
by Pholostan on Thu May 20, 2004 at 08:06:42 PM EST

I see it as a simple statment. Many people with AS have wast and almost always specialized nowledge in their special interest area. To be able to communicate this however is not their forte. People with AS are sometimes described as "Idiot Savants". Great at some stuff, but a disaster in social relations.

I am no exeption. I sometimes bore people to the brink of madness with my monolouges about my special interests. People may be marveled and/or dumbfounded at first, but almost always it gets pretty boring. People with AS is a bit like the mad tinker gnomes in Dragonlance.

I am sure that the author didn't mean to sund condesending in the article. Quite the opposite. But as I know myself, it isn't easy. Very often I don't get my message through when I talk or write. Often due to bad formulations that put people off or makes them angry. I try quite hard not to though.


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
but (none / 1) (#343)
by Battle Troll on Fri May 21, 2004 at 09:52:03 AM EST

I see it as a simple statment. Many people with AS have wast and almost always specialized nowledge in their special interest area.

I don't have Asperger's syndrome, yet I have vast general (and specialized) knowledge; every time I watch Jeopardy, I "win" around $20,000. I don't know anything about movie or sports stars, and I don't care. So much for 'neurotypicals only like fast cars, hot babes, and juicy tidbits.'
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]

I'm not implying that NT people are inferior (none / 0) (#355)
by Pholostan on Fri May 21, 2004 at 08:55:10 PM EST

That is your interpretation.

- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
you miss the point (none / 0) (#371)
by Battle Troll on Sat May 22, 2004 at 10:31:01 AM EST

That a trait you claim to be peculiar to AS sufferers is widespread outside the AS world.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]
Ofcorse it is (none / 0) (#389)
by Pholostan on Sat May 22, 2004 at 08:20:26 PM EST

Have anybody claimed otherwise? It is just that it is always a trait that is present in AS people, without exception.

- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
yes... (none / 0) (#392)
by Battle Troll on Sun May 23, 2004 at 10:58:18 AM EST

Have anybody claimed otherwise?

The story poster claimed that he couldn't find anything to talk to with NTs, clearly implying 'all NTs he's met.'
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]

Where? (none / 0) (#431)
by Pholostan on Tue May 25, 2004 at 12:19:22 PM EST

Where does he say that? I can't find it in the article. It says under the heading Perseverations:


Nevertheless, perseveration for me has meant spending my early teenage years learning how to program and becoming especially adept at using Windows. A little later it meant focusing on perfecting my French accent and reading French newspapers like Le Monde. Because of my perseverations, I have a more thorough understanding of history, politics, language, computers, psychology, geography, and numerous other subjects than the average person. In contrast, I have a deficit of knowledge about today's pop stars, actors, and social gossip. This sometimes makes it hard for people to have interesting conversations with me.

Note the last scentence. I concur with NeatHumain, you seem to intetionally misinterpret his text.


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
You Misinterpreted Me (none / 0) (#353)
by NeantHumain on Fri May 21, 2004 at 05:53:49 PM EST

The more trollish around here have interpreted that statement--and others--as a form of gloating. I know there are some advantages to this repository of technical knowledge; but the advantages are far, far too often outweighed by the disadvantages of lacking social common sense. I know I stereotyped NTs by saying they only care about trivial matters; but do you know what it feels like to say something without realizing you just insulted someone constantly or to completely miss important social cues that someone wants to leave, is bored, etc.? It really isolates you even from people who liked you--at first.


I hate my sig.


[ Parent ]
don't compound your folly (none / 1) (#372)
by Battle Troll on Sat May 22, 2004 at 10:40:05 AM EST

The more trollish around here

I'd love to hear what exactly you consider to be 'trolling.'

I know there are some advantages to this repository of technical knowledge; but the advantages are far, far too often outweighed by the disadvantages of lacking social common sense.

Earth to 'nothing human:' I am not an Asperger's sufferer, yet I have 'a repository of technical knowledge.' In fact, I served for several years on a university committee including a number of prominent young scientists and researchers, and among these astronomers, medical biophysicists, computer scientists, and engineers of all stripes, I didn't note any inflicted with Asperger's, nor any without 'vast repositories of technical knowledge.' So I am forced to conclude that your comparing yourself with the gossipy, shallow neurotypicals is really a way to define yourself by contrasts with their flaws.

The five most recent books I've read are on the following subjects: Romanian grammar; jazz arranging for string ensembles; Egyptian architecture; the period 1870-1920 in the waning days of the Ottoman Empire; and programming in Java (just a general language reference.) Now who's a shallow gossipmonger?
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]

PS (none / 0) (#373)
by Battle Troll on Sat May 22, 2004 at 10:42:05 AM EST

do you know what it feels like to say something without realizing you just insulted someone constantly or to completely miss important social cues that someone wants to leave, is bored, etc.?

Yes, I do. I realise that that's more common & severe for Asperger's sufferers, but honestly, put that brain to work on figuring out how to do some of this stuff. You're a smart guy and it's not an impossible challenge. If deaf people can learn to speak intelligibly, you can learn basic social skills.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]

Agreed (none / 1) (#329)
by Pholostan on Thu May 20, 2004 at 10:44:46 PM EST

Many posters have asserted that I as well as others with Asperger's syndrome use this condition to make ourselves feel special or to exempt our behavior. This is patent nonsense.

I feel exactly the same way, and I've tried to convey that in my posts. I'm not very good at communication though. But I do try.

Before I was diagnosed with this condition by professionals, I thought autism was Rainman stuff only. For a long time afterwards, I was in denial: I did not want to be associated with this awful condition!

Oh yes. I remebering feeling mortal terror at the concept of falling into the category of this condition. I'm less ignorant nowdays though, and have come to accept it. It took time though. Several years.

I have met people who are more accepting of eccentric behavior and a bizarre sense of humor that doesn't always make very much sense--well, they'll laugh even if it's not funny because they know I'll eventually come up with something really funny.

That sound's great :-) I have also met some great people. Some of them I call friends. I think myself fortunate in that way. I've met people with AS that don't have any friends at all, and are miserably because of it. Here in Sweden we have a nation wide association for people with all forms of autism. The people there are spectacular, words don't do their heroic work justice. They've helped many. There is a small english page here. The official site is www.autism.se, but it is all in swedish for natural reasons.


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
jeez stop saying you are bad at communicating. (none / 0) (#341)
by noogie on Fri May 21, 2004 at 06:58:43 AM EST

you can write fine and you know it. dont try and get some sympathy.


*** ANONYMIZED BY THE EVIL KUROFIVEHIN MILITARY JUNTA ***
[ Parent ]
What? (none / 0) (#356)
by Pholostan on Fri May 21, 2004 at 08:56:58 PM EST

I'm not trying to "get some sympathy". I'm trying to get my point across. Clearly I am failing.

- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
It sounds like you are using it as a way (none / 1) (#340)
by noogie on Fri May 21, 2004 at 06:57:11 AM EST

of validating the way you behave - "i dont interact like normal people, but i have a disorder, so it's ok", rather than changing it.


*** ANONYMIZED BY THE EVIL KUROFIVEHIN MILITARY JUNTA ***
[ Parent ]
Oh come on! (none / 1) (#397)
by vqp on Sun May 23, 2004 at 03:24:58 PM EST

another "I am special" disorder. I hate psychobullshit.

Wait ... I might hate psychobullshit because I have an special disorder.
Now that I think of it, I can juggle three lemons, while thinking about quantum entanglement. What a wonderful feeling!, I'm truly special again ,like when my mom feeded me. I love psychology!.

happiness = d(Reality - Expectations) / dt

[ Parent ]
Thanks (2.00 / 4) (#277)
by Scratch o matic on Thu May 20, 2004 at 02:46:36 PM EST

This is a true statement:

I thought your article was interesting and I enjoyed reading it.

This is a sarcastic statement:

I'm glad you were able to squeeze in a political statement.

I hae always felt very sorry for people who have (none / 2) (#282)
by modmans2ndcoming on Thu May 20, 2004 at 04:02:24 PM EST

this syndrome. they KNOW they are different, and they KNOW they can do nothing about it. it is no coincidence that many vocalize their intentions to commit suicide at very young ages.

It's Good to Know (none / 0) (#413)
by hondo77 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 03:21:01 PM EST

On the other hand, it's nice that it now has a name. I'm 41 and this sort of diagnosis wasn't around when I was younger. It wasn't until my, now five-year-old, son was diagnosed with it a couple of years ago that I found out about it. Finally, an explanation! It's quite an amazing thing, actually, to find this out about yourself. On a more practical front, my wife and I can now keep this in mind when raising our son. We know that we'll have to explicitly teach him social skills that other pick up automatically. Things like that. He's still going to be "different" but I'm hoping he'll be better able deal with things than I was (Small talk, eye contact, etc.).

[ Parent ]
Irritating (1.70 / 17) (#291)
by axel on Thu May 20, 2004 at 05:32:58 PM EST

I find it really irritating when people have to invent some kind of syndrome as an excuse for their own personal frustrations or obsessions. It irritates me that Richard Stallman calls himself an autist -- specially considering how painful and sad it is for the _true_ autists and their families to live with that. I'm talking here about kids who never speak a single word, or hurt themselves every 10 minutes, or people with Tourette's syndrome who can't help but cursing and swearing and insulting people and then get socially excluded because of that... All you people who call yourselves aspies... you're not autists or anything... you're just middle upper class people who are good at computers and are too lazy to try other stuff or deal with things that don't do what you want... after all you don't even need to talk or smile to code C++. In other words, you're just silly nerds. Hey, that's okay. You _chose_ to be so. We all decide what we want to be. You're afraid of women? Fine. You think 'people' are stupid? Fine. Just don't make up some stupid syndrome to explain your behavior. Don't make fun of people with real mentalproblems. There's a whole world out there...

OK then... (none / 1) (#297)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Thu May 20, 2004 at 06:18:26 PM EST

If that's the approach you take (black and white, as it would seem). Do you have a nice, handy chart that tells us when a persons symptoms are sevear enough that they can be considered a dissorder/syndrome and require treatment?

I spose you think all dissorders/syndromes should be left to the extent that the person is about to top themselves or does other durastic things before they are treated?

[ Parent ]

It is a disorder when... (1.60 / 5) (#298)
by axel on Thu May 20, 2004 at 07:00:30 PM EST

It is pretty much agreed nowadays in psychology and psychiatry that a mental disorder is in place when some condition is crippling a person in his pursuit for happiness and a satisfactory life.
Washing your hands 10 times a day may be freaky, but is not a serious mental disorder: it IS a mental disorder when you can't leave your home because you're afraid you might get your hands dirty outside.
Spending 14 hours on the computer instead of reading books, playing golf or skydiving is not a disorder. It's just being a nerd. If it were a disorder it would be an addiction disorder anyway not autism. Of course you can take pills, that sure will help, you'll get high on medically prescribed dope and maybe even become funny enough to get laid.

[ Parent ]
And Aspergers Syndrome fall into that (none / 3) (#300)
by Pholostan on Thu May 20, 2004 at 07:53:12 PM EST

Why don't ju just follow the links in the end of the article? That way, you will stop being ignorant and we won't see your ignorant posts.

Spending 14 hours on the computer instead of reading books, playing golf or skydiving is not a disorder. It's just being a nerd.

If you chose to, that is. People with AS generally don't. Don't you think that a blind man would love to be able to see? Do you tell a blind man to his face that he is just silly, he could see if he chose to? I think not, as it would earn you a rightfull beating (by anybody nearby, if not by the blind man).


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
Nice silly website (none / 2) (#305)
by axel on Thu May 20, 2004 at 08:32:56 PM EST

As you suggested, i just had a look at a couple of the links. As i expected, just a couple of dumps of the DSM-IV criteria.

(1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction
(2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
(3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
(4) lack of social or emotional reciprocity


How is that different from what one would call a 'shy' or 'introspective' person? My brother is a shy person and likes to build model airplanes. Does that make him another AS? "Smoking pot" is another disorder contained in DSM-IV. If you look hard enough, you'll find something for you too.

Do you tell a blind man to his face that he is just silly, he could see if he chose to? I think not, as it would earn you a rightfull beating (by anybody nearby, if not by the blind man).
You keep making comparisons to obvious disabilities like blindless or limb amputations. I think comparing those to AS is gratuitious to say the least. If you want to play self-victimization, thats fair enough, but at least please stop saying ridiculous things like the blind man line quoted above.

I think i'll stop this discussion right now because my AS prevents me from 'spontaneously sharing interests or achievements with other people'

[ Parent ]
I am clearly wasting my time on you (none / 2) (#312)
by Pholostan on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:08:52 PM EST

How is that different from what one would call a 'shy' or 'introspective' person? My brother is a shy person and likes to build model airplanes. Does that make him another AS? "Smoking pot" is another disorder contained in DSM-IV. If you look hard enough, you'll find something for you too.

Read the whole thing, you dolt. Just one or two of the criteria isn't enough. You need to have them all to possibly be diagnosed with AS. Do you have any idea the amount of work it takes to properly diagnose someone with AS? In my case it took the team of professionals three months to do it. There are a lot of tests ofcorse, but also alot of data analysis. It isn't something you do in your back yard.

Nobody is correctly diagnosed by reading a website. You don't do selfdiagnosis, as it isn't woth anything. You are not qualified to do a correct diagnosis, no one person is.

You keep making comparisons to obvious disabilities like blindless or limb amputations. I think comparing those to AS is gratuitious to say the least.

I do those comparisons because I have found out that it is the only thing that works on ignorant jerks. Yes AS isn't something that is obvious. Is is a complex concept that is very hard to explain and to understand. Just because it isn't obvious and you don't have the required knowledge doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Having AS means that you are disabled, period. It is not a disablility that is obvious when you look at a person with AS, as it is with a person who have no legs. That does not mean that it isn't a disability. It means that it takes some knowledge to understand it. Knowledge you lack, and seems to be uninterested in attaining.

I think i'll stop this discussion right now because my AS prevents me from 'spontaneously sharing interests or achievements with other people'

Very funny. I might try to educate you, if you didn't inslut me all the time. I will not post any more answers to your posts though. Have a good day.


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
"inslut" should be "insult" (none / 3) (#322)
by Pholostan on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:59:03 PM EST

I keep doing strange spelling errors when I write. Most of them I spot when I read my own text. Many slip through, even spellcheckers fail as I often write a correct word but the wrong one (not in this case though).

A friend of mine that is diagnosed with dyslexia says that my problems is a little bit similar to his. My trouble is only with writing though, my reading is fine.

It is somewhat related to my motor problems, as writing on a computer keyborad can be a bit tricky. I will never qualify to secretary work, as I write very slowly. I've tested myself on typerA many times, and despite years of practice I never get up to the "passed" level. The page tells me "basically you can't type" and I guess that's pretty correct.

I have similar problems when I write by hand. It is slow and quite hard to read. Various teachers in elementary school used to tell me that I needed to work on my handwriting. I did. it didn't get much better. My bad handwriting was generally excused though, 'cause I did quite well in other theoretical subjects.

The act of signing things by hand is a mystery to me. Not two of my signatures are alike. Most people are able to do quite similar signatures. I'm not. Irritating, it is.

But this is only small trivial problems in my life. I dedicate most time to the bigger ones.


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
Are they all the criteria? (none / 2) (#314)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:18:24 PM EST

Are those 4 traits the only criteria for Asperger's?

If so, you have a point. Otherwise you are a complete idiot and have absolutly no idea of what you are talking about

[ Parent ]

lol uve gotta be trolling. (none / 1) (#339)
by noogie on Fri May 21, 2004 at 06:52:13 AM EST

a blind can never see. a geek could go outside and talk to people. its not physically impossible. just theres some mental brick wall. i bet if kids did more sports and stuff theyd be ok.


*** ANONYMIZED BY THE EVIL KUROFIVEHIN MILITARY JUNTA ***
[ Parent ]
Sure (none / 1) (#357)
by Pholostan on Fri May 21, 2004 at 09:04:19 PM EST

A person that's just a geek will have no problem. A person with Asperger's Syndrome will have real problems. Just like a blind man have trouble walking the street.

But there are ways to work around the problems. The blind guy can get a walking stick or a dog to help him. A person with Asperger's Syndrome can be diagnosed and focus on working around the problems.

It is the same. Both people are disabled. It is still possible for them to have a nice life though.

- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]

You miss my point. (2.60 / 5) (#313)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:13:26 PM EST

The point at which condition becomes crippling is relative to the person and people affected by it.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that all medically prescribed drugs will get you high, or that that's thier only purpose.

[ Parent ]

legally high (none / 3) (#315)
by axel on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:23:43 PM EST

most of the prescription drugs used for disorders related to ADD (Attention Defficit Disorder), Depression, etc. DO get you high because they're stimulants. My guess is, if there's drugs for AS (cough) then they'll be stimulants too, to try to increase physical and social activity.

[ Parent ]
Wrong (none / 3) (#321)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:58:46 PM EST

The whole point to giving a CNS simulant to someone with ADHD is because it may have the effect of calming them down. In otherwords, it can have a contradictory effect of making them not high.

As for getting high off anti-depressants, effects vary from each person, esspecially prozac. I was on that for a couple of months and I felt nothing.

Scientists barely understand exacly how and why some drugs work and some don't. What makes you think you know more than them?

Besides, if a drug helps them live their life better, what's wrong with that?

[ Parent ]

Was that like in Pete's Dragon, (none / 0) (#366)
by Sesquipundalian on Sat May 22, 2004 at 12:36:14 AM EST

it can have a contradictory effect of making them not high

where the guy got amnesia from a bonk on the head and then had the amnesia cured with another head bonk? What is it with that meme in psychiatry? Why won't it die already?


Did you know that gullible is not actually an english word?
[ Parent ]
It's proven (none / 1) (#367)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Sat May 22, 2004 at 03:03:53 AM EST

And contradictory reactions can occur in most drugs. Ever heard of SSRIs cauing suicide for example?

[ Parent ]
Your precise (none / 0) (#364)
by Sesquipundalian on Sat May 22, 2004 at 12:33:42 AM EST

expectations put you at risk for various conflict based disorders.


Did you know that gullible is not actually an english word?
[ Parent ]
IHBT (none / 0) (#386)
by ptraci on Sat May 22, 2004 at 05:43:49 PM EST

I am sorry I bothered to reply to your earlier posts, you are clearly trolling. Silly me.
"Facts are a better basis for decisions than ideology." - Howard Dean.
[ Parent ]
Ignorant people are irritating! (2.25 / 4) (#299)
by Pholostan on Thu May 20, 2004 at 07:40:39 PM EST

Asperger's Syndrome is a neurobiological disorder. Nobody is inventing anything. It is an observed fact and you are just ignorant. Yes it is not as severe as say classic autism. It is still there though.

Less than 1% of the population falls into the autistic spectra, and fever still of those have AS. Some say it is less than 0.5% of the population.

It isn't possible that all "silly nerds" have AS. But it's possible that many with AS become what you would call computer geeks.

<quote>You _chose_ to be so.</quote>

I certainly did not. You are ridiculing me and everybody else that have AS. Do you inslut people who was born with only one arm too?

I've been this way all my life. When i was diagnosed it was an explanation for me. On a very personal level. My parents have never looked at me as disabled, nor my friends. They don't do nowdays either.

<quote>Just don't make up some stupid syndrome to explain your behavior.</quote>

Who do? Certainly no such thing is in the article. It isn't "made up". It is a result of years of scientific research. You are just an ignorant fool.

<quote>Don't make fun of people with real mentalproblems</quote>

I ask you again: Who do? It is not in the article. Maybe you should take your own advice?


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
Gnf, Pressed Post instead of Preview /NT (none / 1) (#301)
by Pholostan on Thu May 20, 2004 at 07:55:34 PM EST


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
Priceless (none / 1) (#335)
by smg on Fri May 21, 2004 at 12:01:33 AM EST

Do you inslut people who was born with only one arm too?

[ Parent ]
On "years of research" (3.00 / 4) (#302)
by axel on Thu May 20, 2004 at 08:05:27 PM EST

Just so you know, gays also had a "disorder" according to the APA (American Psychiatric Association) until well into the 70s. I'm sure lots of them found an explanation too when they were diagnosed. And there was a lot of research in that area, too. They even gave them electroshocks to heal them. Disorders are nothing but cultural products, and change according to times and mentalities. "Years of research" don't mean shit because science is not neutral or innocent, and you can find "neurolobiological" truths for anything you want to find. You just need the right mentality.
I didn't mean to insult you or anyone who believes to have AS. I just find it gross to whine about suffering some "disorder" just because you hear weird sounds and have trouble in social relationships. I have heard weird noises many times, and feel apart from people at times. So what. I live through it. I'm sure your suffering is real and i respect it. Don't try to distort my words. What i meant is, your cognitive skills are intact, you can have a 95% normal life and enjoy stuff just like everyone else. Some people are not that lucky and are really fucked up.

[ Parent ]
Still ignorant (none / 3) (#306)
by Pholostan on Thu May 20, 2004 at 08:44:14 PM EST

Just so you know, gays also had a "disorder" according to the APA (American Psychiatric Association) until well into the 70s.

I do know that. I have studied psycology at the univeristy here. Do you know that it is hotly debated if, among many other syndromes, AS should be concidered a disorder? That it is a syndrome is prettey clear though. That won't change.

"Years of research" don't mean shit because science is not neutral or innocent, and you can find "neurolobiological" truths for anything you want to find. You just need the right mentality

You mean that people stoped being gay when the APA stoped classifying homosexuality as a disorder? No, I think not. The trouble gay people have i some societies did also not go away. AS is an observed fact. People with AS suffer from it beacuse that modern society value social skills highly. I don't like the word disorder much. It is nessecary for ignorant people like you though. Ignorant people like you just sneer at the trouble people with AS have. Classifying it as a disorder makes most people take it seriously, and thus people with AS who are in great trouble because of AS might get some help. They just might get a chance for a meaningful life.

Ofcourse it is possible to use science as a political club to clobber people with. I assure you however that it isn't the case with AS and other autistic syndromes.

I didn't mean to insult you or anyone who believes to have AS. I just find it gross to whine about suffering some "disorder" just because you hear weird sounds and have trouble in social relationships.

I propose that you read up on AS then. Untill you do that, you keep on insulting me and anybody else with AS with your ignorance.

What i meant is, your cognitive skills are intact, you can have a 95% normal life and enjoy stuff just like everyone else.

There you go again, telling blind people that it is nothing wrong with their eyes. You are wrong and ignorant. Pure and simple. I don't have the energy to educate you.


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
yes, ignorant (2.25 / 4) (#309)
by axel on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:04:39 PM EST

You mean that people stoped being gay when the APA stoped classifying homosexuality as a disorder? No, I think not. The trouble gay people have i some societies did also not go away

DOH! Really? You obviously didnt get the irony. I meant exactly the opposite. Maybe some AS thing.

Since you keep calling me 'ignorant', you probably think your psychology degree makes you smarter or more important. Well, i have a psychology degree as well. Your thinking that psychology is actually valuable for anything clearly indicates me who's the ignorant here. I've been there and i know the story. Maybe you can play the psychologist game with your friends, but i'm not impressed at all. Know what? some people with serious disorders can't go to university.

During my life i have suffered post-traumatic stress disorder after one close friend died and i was badly hurt in a car accident; i've been in semi-coma and had a psychotic streak due to drug abuse; and i have also suffered a 1-year period of agoraphobia. I know what it feels to be fucked up. But i lived on. So maybe i'm an ignorant but i got over it. Maybe its you the idiot after all, who can't get over a mild form of autism? Sorry but you just offended me with your uni kid smart ass, geeky whining attittude. Now go and have yourself some therapy, write some Perl script or something

[ Parent ]
Well and good then (none / 2) (#359)
by Pholostan on Fri May 21, 2004 at 10:48:06 PM EST

Since you keep calling me 'ignorant', you probably think your psychology degree makes you smarter or more important.

No. I have not written that. Stop imagining things.

Your thinking that psychology is actually valuable for anything clearly indicates me who's the ignorant here.

Is that so? I guess you treat depression, fobia et all with somthing else then. I would be interesting in hearing what and how. It would be a scientific breakthrough. Otherwise your are just another ignorant jerk.

Know what? some people with serious disorders can't go to university.

You know what? That very often includes people with AS. It includes me. Nowdays I know why I failed miserably at the univerisy. Had I known about my AS earlier, maybe I would have gotten my degree.

The univeristy I went to was teaming with people. People verywhere. Noise everywhere. Light everywhere. Many subjects to cram at the same time. Lots of social activities. I hated it. Not that I can't manage to study hard (as you say I am a smart ass), the enviroment made it impossible for me. And all the time I could not understand why it was so hard. Now I know why, and am able to work around most of it. I've beaten most of it by hard work and incredible force of will.

During my life i have suffered post-traumatic stress disorder after one close friend died and i was badly hurt in a car accident; i've been in semi-coma and had a psychotic streak due to drug abuse; and i have also suffered a 1-year period of agoraphobia.

I am happy to hear that you beat those deseases. If you think that having done that, you are some guru on mental suffering, think again. I've myself been in a deep depression for the last seven years. I should probably been dead, but I managed to survive.

Yes your problmes were serious. That doesn't mean that people with AS can have just as serious problems every day in their lives. A friend of mine just last week lost a friend.

I know what it feels to be fucked up.

Sure. You have no idea whatsoever what it means to live with Asperger's Syndrome. None. So stop making very insulting statments about things that you have absolutely no idea about.

Maybe its you the idiot after all, who can't get over a mild form of autism?

Yeah, right. I should just "get over it". Sure. You fucking idiot. I can "get over" my autism just as easy as a person born with Downs Syndrome can "get over it". Just as easy a blind person can get over their blindness. Yeah. Any day now. I can feel it coming to me. Soon I will be cured. I have seen GOD! HALELULJA!

Blind people can get a walking stick, or maybe a dog to help them walk the streets. Deaf people can learn sign language and lip reading to get by. People whith AS can get diagnosed and work out ways to get around some of their problems. And there are almost not two people with AS that have exactly the same problems. We are a quite inhomogenous group. I have vritten about my own problems in other comments to this article. Go read them if you are interested.

No, I don't think that having AS is worse to being blind. They are both a disability. Very diffrent disabilities, but still disablilities. I would not rather be deaf than have AS. Not having AS means something that is utterly alien to me. I would not be who I am without it. I am diffrent than most people, my cognition works diffrently. Does that mean that I am superior? No, at least I don't think that way. Does it mean that I might have a hard time to get what everybody else can get? Yes. That is what it means to be disabled in todays society.

Sorry but you just offended me with your uni kid smart ass, geeky whining attittude.

No problem. I am used to the insults form ignorant jerks. I guess that I'm still a kid at 27. My grandma is 85. She use to say that she feels young inside. I guess that means she is a kid too.

Now go and have yourself some therapy, write some Perl script or something

I would love to go to therapy, but I can't afford it. I'm not rich. Not many people with AS are. Most are very poor, living on the good graces of their relatives or the goverment. But I will manage anyway. You count on that.

Perl... I've heard of that script language. Almost always there is someone expressing serious anguish about it. So I've been thinking about learning it so I could scare people. "I am a perl programmer! Mohahahaha!".


- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
So there we go again... (none / 1) (#369)
by axel on Sat May 22, 2004 at 06:40:36 AM EST

...trying to make your little disorder really important and comparing it to serious disabilities? For fuck's sake, you're not DEAF, BLIND, or have damn DOWN SYNDROME. Accept that. You lost perspective somewhere. Hello? Somebody there? You're debating aspects of your own disorder in an internet site using a computer. I'm still waiting for a kid with Down syndrome to come over and post a story here.

Is that so? I guess you treat depression, fobia et all with somthing else then. I would be interesting in hearing what and how. It would be a scientific breakthrough. Otherwise your are just another ignorant jerk.

Oh yes, psychology does work. Behavioral techniques work for your stuff. I guess in first year at uni you studied behavioral techniques: exposition ('in vivo' and 'in mente'), flooding, desensitivization, etc. You should really try them on yourself. First day you walk up there and stand outside the classroom, next day you go into the classroom and sit at the last row, next day a bit closer to people, next day a bit closer, next day you try to talk to someone, etc. Anxiety scales also help. Now seriously, that works. I'm sure it works even on AS people.

[ Parent ]
NOT the same as Agoraphobia (none / 0) (#385)
by ptraci on Sat May 22, 2004 at 05:11:43 PM EST

Your prescription would work if it were only a phobia. it isn't. As I said in a post further up, smoking pot seemed to help me, but even studying the possible therapeutic uses of THC is illegal without a permit, which the federal government doesn't allow anyone to get, so I can't provide anything but anecdotal evidence for that. Did people tell you to stop whining about all of your problems? Are we not allowed to talk about it at all if it's maybe not as bad as blindness? For how much of your life were you socially ostracized, bullied, and made fun of because of those things you mentioned above? If you have never walked in my shoes, you really have no right to tell me to "Get over it."
"Facts are a better basis for decisions than ideology." - Howard Dean.
[ Parent ]
No (none / 0) (#427)
by Pholostan on Mon May 24, 2004 at 11:19:20 PM EST

I'm not "trying to make your little disorder really important". That is your words and I am seriously taking affront to them. I am trying to make a point.

It is not possible to cure autism. Autism is not agrophobia. You don't know the first thing about autism. I have no problem being in a classroom or talking to people. That is not the problem. If you knew anything about autism, you would know this. But as it is, you are just another ignorant jerk.

- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]

Right, but you're still wrong (2.00 / 4) (#316)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Thu May 20, 2004 at 09:32:06 PM EST

Disorders are nothing but cultural products, and change according to times and mentalities.

100% agreed. But since everything is relative anyway...

[ Parent ]

Choice? (1.50 / 4) (#337)
by Wildgoose on Fri May 21, 2004 at 03:30:31 AM EST

I didn't choose to have a son with Asperger's Syndrome, and he didn't choose to be that way either.

If we're bandying insults, then you're just an ignorant jerk.

[ Parent ]

3 points from me, an asperger (2.33 / 6) (#325)
by limivore on Thu May 20, 2004 at 10:14:28 PM EST

1) I'm not calling myself an asperger to aggrandize myself.
   Sure, some people do. Some people are drama queens.
   Also, some people are such drama queens that they can't imagine any sort of self-reference that isn't for the purpose of self-aggrandizement.
   Let those people happily eat their own shit.

2) I'm using the term 'asperger' to refer to my 'personality type' because having a word for the thing is nice. I like talking to people about important stuff like the roots of my self. People I can talk to about this stuff and with whom I can relate with are a kickass golden treasure.

3) It's nice having sciences that claim to study 'mind' or 'personality' but there's the obvious catch and it rankles me. Such arrogance. Malady my stinky ass.

Asperger's Not Merely Personality Type (none / 1) (#352)
by NeantHumain on Fri May 21, 2004 at 05:43:15 PM EST

Asperger's syndrome is rooted in differences in brain structure. The result is that brain faculties for emotional response and certain other things are underdeveloped while other parts are overdeveloped. You may have a personality type that resembles Asperger's, but Asperger's goes beyond mere geekiness and shyness.


I hate my sig.


[ Parent ]
so what's your point? (none / 0) (#362)
by limivore on Fri May 21, 2004 at 11:20:10 PM EST

Is this aimed at me?
You saying I'm some kind of 'aspy poser'?
Just come out and say it you prattling cliche.

[ Parent ]
Which (none / 0) (#374)
by Sesquipundalian on Sat May 22, 2004 at 11:18:20 AM EST

brain structures?


Did you know that gullible is not actually an english word?
[ Parent ]
Differences in brain structure (none / 1) (#405)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Mon May 24, 2004 at 01:09:31 AM EST

It could be argued that personality types are rooted in brain structures to. Atleast that's what all the latest gene research shows ("people with gene blah are 50% more likely to blah blah than people without it" etc).

[ Parent ]
Those symptoms are interesting (3.00 / 6) (#344)
by davidmb on Fri May 21, 2004 at 10:04:19 AM EST

I hate the feel of cotton wool, the whining of electrical stuff, looking people in the eye etc. I spent most of my teens messing with computers. I couldn't even get close to girls! But I found out my problem...

I wasn't drinking enough! Seriously, three years of heavy drinking at uni sorted me right out. It turns out I didn't have any sort of syndrome, I was just a shy nerd. I had to learn to take the occasional social risk, no matter how terrifying it can be.

I offer this advice to anyone thinking of jumping on the bandwagon because they match x number of symptoms. Sometimes drink is the answer!
־‮־

me too (none / 0) (#350)
by limivore on Fri May 21, 2004 at 03:47:05 PM EST

Partying at the university did wonders for my socializing powers. Drinking and weed- lots and lots of weed.

[ Parent ]
Sounds a Little Like Someone I Know (2.50 / 4) (#351)
by NeantHumain on Fri May 21, 2004 at 05:39:34 PM EST

Strangely enough, you sound kind of like a girl I knew (unfortunately, I have to use the past tense) from my first year at college. Increased exposure to social events can alleviate some symptoms of Asperger's to an extent, but it can by no means cure this pervasive developmental disorder.

Certainly alcohol will not cure autism. Moreover, it might only lead to alcoholism and neglect of studies.


I hate my sig.


[ Parent ]
what a robotic response (none / 3) (#361)
by limivore on Fri May 21, 2004 at 10:59:05 PM EST

smug patronizing condescending much?

[ Parent ]
Pot worked for me. (none / 0) (#381)
by ptraci on Sat May 22, 2004 at 04:26:44 PM EST

To some extent. I'm still a geek, but I can actually get people to like me now. I haven't smoked for several years, but I credit social smoking with helping me to learn to communicate. It also helps that I work in a field where geekiness is normal, as an elecctronic technician.
"Facts are a better basis for decisions than ideology." - Howard Dean.
[ Parent ]
I hate... (none / 3) (#345)
by jd on Fri May 21, 2004 at 02:22:48 PM EST

...the nonsense people feel they have to write, in order to put people with Aspergers or some similar syndrome down.

The fact is, the Autistic Spectrum exists, and Aspergers is at one end of it. Get over the denial carp, and accept that you can place points on any line.

To those with Aspergers, I would appreciate a little more help with the Asperger's project on Sourceforge, to develop toolkits to help with the identification and resolution of common Asperger problems.

I Am The Asperger King! (none / 1) (#358)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Fri May 21, 2004 at 10:21:22 PM EST

Come my people, and I will lead you to victory over those knavish pretenders to the throne -- the Bastards of Aut!

They're not very physical -- we can take 'em. I believe in you.

Unite Aspergers, and we will win the slaughter!


___
The quest for the Grail is the quest for that which is holy in all of us. Plus, I really need a place to keep my juice.
THis is absolutely offtopic but... (1.00 / 4) (#363)
by limivore on Fri May 21, 2004 at 11:44:13 PM EST

Doesn't kuroshin have the lamest icons? An upgrade is called for.

I hate white screens, they hurt my eyes. Everybody I know hates white screens. Kuroshin shouldn't have a white screen. Black is better.

We need one of those forums where you can edit your posts.

Is this the wrong place to post this? What's a better place? Why is it better?


[OT] White screens (none / 1) (#370)
by zerblat on Sat May 22, 2004 at 10:00:56 AM EST

If large areas of white (or other bright colors) or your screen hurt your eyes, try adjusting (or replacing) you monitor. Make sure your update frequency is at least 85 Hz -- lower frequencies make the screen flicker more obvious and annoying (assuming you have a CRT, the update frequency doesn't matter much with TFTs).

Also, try decreasing the brightness -- the default settings are often unnecessarily bright, which makes the flicker more apparant and annoying.

If that doesn't help, consider buying a better monitor or using custom style sheet with a dark background color (if your browser supports them).

Your diary is probably the best place for random stuff like this.

[ Parent ]

re: [OT] White Screens (none / 0) (#380)
by limivore on Sat May 22, 2004 at 04:05:41 PM EST

Surely all my friends aren't with overbright/misfrequencied monitors too.

I think the whiteness of this site is a result of blind adherence to stylistic convention more than anything else. White screens became the 'in thing' a few years ago and the rest is inertia.

Should we take a poll?

And what about those icons? Did he get them out of a phonebook?

If I put this in my diary nobody would read it.


[ Parent ]

Black screens (none / 1) (#406)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Mon May 24, 2004 at 01:25:08 AM EST

I think part of it probably had something to do with those old, horribly "designed" sites using black. Now whenever you a black website, you're half expecting to see 14pt Comic Sans Bold in ultra-saturated indigo (#ff00ff).

Also, the colour black has conitations that most sites don't want--It doesn't look professional.

I'm sure Suicidal Ideation would help you with your endevor though. You could let him do the icons to; a razorblade for culture, a pentagram for politics...

[ Parent ]

[OT] An observation (none / 0) (#408)
by trejkaz on Mon May 24, 2004 at 02:40:18 AM EST

Hey cool, ultrasaturated indigo is exactly the same colour as magenta!

(Also I agree that some sort of tint to the background might make K5 look nicer... but if I was that hardcore about hating it, I would write a style rule and override it using my web browser.)



[ Parent ]
Overdiagnosed, like ADHD, but real. (none / 3) (#375)
by astraea on Sat May 22, 2004 at 11:49:29 AM EST

There is such a thing as Asperger autism; unfortunately, our DSM-happy society has chosen to use it as a label for anyone, particularly male, who is shy and /or prefers reading and thinking to sports.

As others here have pointed out, ordinary life situations and things that are not even problems are receiving psychiatric labels; everything from drinking too much coffee to bad handwriting. The definition of normality is narrowing alarmingly.

You might check out the entry on autism at wikipedia...

Wikipedia: Autism

also, autistics.org Instead of a cure, some autistics seek opportunities to put their unique skills and perceptions to use.

graphictruth.com Issues in education and social realities, including autism.

Bluejay

Normality? (none / 1) (#412)
by hondo77 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 03:13:26 PM EST

The definition of normality is narrowing alarmingly.

What's normal? Seriously. I have Asperger's-lite, which definitely takes me out of the mainstream at times but it's just who I am. My wife once described it as being abnormal and I replied that if it's abnormal to make three times her salary, then I'm all for abnormal. Everybody is different and this is just another way that I'm different.

[ Parent ]

Exactly, (none / 1) (#415)
by astraea on Mon May 24, 2004 at 04:47:44 PM EST

"Asperger's-lite" is a good term for it (my actual diagnosis from Dr. Bernard Rimland is "autistic-like", but the scale he was using at the time was for Kanner's autism only and I believe he was counting Asperger's as "autistic-like". I need to check back with him.)

Over the years I've trained myself to respond and behave in acceptable social-norm ways, but I had to program myself like a computer through repetition. I call them my politeness and diplomacy modules. Fortunately my SO also has Asperger's and we can understand each other.

I think we should be accepted for what we are (i.e., autism should be normalized), but also recognized (i.e., visible: no "don't ask don't tell" stuff).

The idea that all shy, scholarly computer-programmer or engineer-types have Asperger syndrome is a crock. In today's culture where boys who are not extroverted and into sports are routinely gay-bashed whether they're actually gay or not, the last thing they need is to be told that they have a neurological disorder as well.

Jay

[ Parent ]

*envy* (none / 0) (#426)
by jbridge21 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 10:59:48 PM EST

lucky beyotch, an SO also with asperger's...

I sure hope you're making full use of this opportunity and coming up with your own private set of social interaction protocols, set up explicitly instead of implicitly...

[ Parent ]

a little late getting back to you... (none / 0) (#443)
by astraea on Sat Mar 04, 2006 at 06:13:43 PM EST

We have moved in together since I wrote that last response, and we're doing fine, doing just what you said. I am also able to help with things like her school and having an awesome disabled student services counselor is definitely a plus. What she needs now is an official evaluation/diagnosis exactly what kind of autism she has, so that she and the counselor can work with the instructors & department heads to tailor her protocols. She needs absolute silence during tests and lab for instance (she's a geologist); during tests she also needs to get up frequently and pace, lie down on the floor, or go outside briefly, and this can all be arranged. Another place to learn about Asperger autism is http://www.aspiesforfreedom.org Also, http://www.gettingthetruthout.org for dispelling myths about classic autism. Jay

[ Parent ]
Poor article. (3.00 / 8) (#377)
by malraux on Sat May 22, 2004 at 12:29:09 PM EST

Sorry, but it is. While Asberger's can be a truly difficult thing to live with, this article doesn't give a very good idea of why that is.

I've got a son who is mildly autistic (Asberger's). He has uncanny hearing, an unbelievable vocabulary, and is generally very intelligent. These are the good things.

The bad things: Monologues. Obsessive behavior. Poor social skills. Exceedingly clumsy physical behavior. These are things he was born with, and not learned, as they manifested from a very, very early age (ever have a 4 year old give you a lecture about benzene for 30 minutes?)

His hands are constantly chapped and bloody from the washing. He's got a spot on his lip that he picks all the time, such that he has blood on his fingers. Yet the slightest externally caused pain overcomes him. Listening to him talk is impossible at times due to the repetitive phrases. "um" is a big one with him... 8-9 in a row, every 4 or 5 regular words. He also repeats himself so often that 5 minutes into his sentence (yes, singular) listeners have no idea what he's trying to say. He's extremely literal, incapable of lying, and unable to detect social cues that should govern his behavior. An example of this would be walking into a room where a conversation is already in progress, and launching into a monologue about a new video game. Yes, normal kids do that too, but not as pathologically and untrainably as this one does. He has a terrible time picking up on facial cues (mainly because he finds it difficult to look a person in the face) and a worse time figuring out why people are suddenly mad or irritated with him. He's 10 now, and he's just learned how to work a swing. He also (sometimes) moves his arms when he runs. He can't ride a bike yet either. Is he just a couch potato? No. He was in karate class for 2 years; it didn't help one bit. He walked early and had extremely high fine motor skills for his age when he was 3, mainly from sheer dint of concentration.

While his intelligence and ability to obsessively concentrate will put him in good stead later on in life, his ability to interact socially will become severely flawed without aggressive actions on our parts as parents now. We need to teach him about eye contact (the kid won't look at anyone while he's talking... he paces and looks at the floor)... we need to teach him about holding a conversation instead of a monologue... we need to teach him all the little things that most people learn subconciously. He doesn't have the ability to learn these things subconsciously, and given free reign he may never do so. Because he's smart, he will undoubtedly be able to train himself later on, but by then the social damage is done.

Because these social interactions are a necessary part of living a full life, he could become severely constrained in his interactions later on without them. Job interviews, networking (no, not the kind that happens on a wire), finding friends, and so on will be (and in some cases already are) as difficult for him as learning to read is for your average 2 year old.

The people here dismissing Asberger's as some sort of whiny attempt at self-aggrandizement are missing the point. It's not that plenty of people who aren't autistic don't have these behaviors as well, it's that autism prevents sufferers from overcoming their inabilities without extreme intervention in some cases. While my son is improving, it's taking persistent, dedicated effort on our part to help him overcome these issues. Recognizing that there is something different intrinsically has helped us work out methods of "training" him socially that simply aren't required with "normal" children. What you (the general you) may take for granted just doesn't happen for my son, while other things he does easily you couldn't do in a million years. It can be a difficult mix to live with, and very hard to understand if you haven't been exposed to it.



Regards,
-scott

Administrator of zIWETHEY forums
3 things that can help (none / 2) (#379)
by limivore on Sat May 22, 2004 at 03:57:03 PM EST

I am, like your son, an aspy.
Here's what unclenched my awareness and cracked my hard heart:

1) drugs. The recreational kind.
2) zen meditation
3) the company of relatively unfuckedup people.

#1: They are crude devices of course, but convenient and don't require much in the way of technique.

#2 is the bomb. It involves 2 techniques the first of which any aspy will take to like a duck to water and can in fact EXACERBATE the condition- but it's a necessary thing.
The second is strange and beautiful.

#3: The company of warm, openhearted, non-obsessivly-intellectual people.
Good company is *HUGE*.

I'm not saying I've been turned into the dalai llama but I ain't no scuttling insect anymore either.

[ Parent ]

details, details, details :) (none / 1) (#422)
by jbridge21 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 10:28:22 PM EST

  1. which?
  2. what two techniques are you talking about? (I would make guesses but I don't have a copy of Eight Lectures handy and it's been a while since I read it.)


[ Parent ]
#1 and #2 (none / 1) (#432)
by limivore on Wed May 26, 2004 at 03:07:48 AM EST

#1 Weed, hallucinagens, whatever. Power tools with big pros and cons. Don't pick your nose with that chainsaw.

#2 The 2 techniques are the 2 basic techniques of manual awareness manipulation that exist in mystical traditions everywhere, tho they go by different names.
We practice these techniques for self cultivation, education, attainment of power, exploration and the joy of honing a beautiful art.

TECHNIQUE#1 : Concentration. You get in a controlled environment (quiet, no bugs, posture u can hold for a while, etc) and concentrate on something (that is to say: you FOCUS your ATTENTION on it) with perseverence and discipline. The something is called the 'object' of your concentration. It's usually chosen out of convenience or some particular attribute that makes it good for concentrating on. It's about the act of concentration, applying your will, pumping up your will and concentration muscles. It's straightforeward and obvious and the more you do it the better you get at it and amazing things abound.

TECHNIQUE#2 : In the course of exploring the art of concentration you might note that "focussing one's awareness" here or there is a deed that is both pervasive and constant. That is to say, we do it all the time. Constantly, both reflexively and by choice. It's the fundamental thing that we do. In this second technique we note that everpresent choice to lay your attention here or there and refrain from making it. You refrain from choosing to focus on anything, letting your awareness lay relaxed. When you do this your awareness moves in new ways. It EXPANDS. It's A REALLY BIG DEAL. (Consider this in the face of the focus-induced-tunnelvision phenomenon)

The 2 techniques work well together. EG: you practice technique#1 regularly over a few days (you can get VERY concentrated) and attain what the yoga guys call a state of "one pointedness". It's a state of deep focus and calm. Then you do technique#2 some. Note the wonderful augmentation.

Technique#1 goes by different names in different traditions. The buddhists call it SAMATHA; The raja-yoga guys call it SAMPRAJANATA DYHANA; The Taoists call it CONCENTRATION.

Technique#2 is referred to by the buddhists as VIPASSANA; The raja yogis call it ASAMPRAJANATA DYHANA ; The Taoists just call it MEDITATION; A guy named Krishnamurti called it CHOICELESS AWARENESS; I like the term NONCONCENTRATION.

Good books on the subject: Raja Yoga by Swami Vivekinanda : Yoga Aphorisms by Patanjali

Remember, reading a book about it doesn't mean diddly. Seeing for yourself is everything.

 PS: I hate calling myself an Ass-Burger

[ Parent ]

My people (none / 1) (#399)
by The Real Lord Kano on Sun May 23, 2004 at 04:28:04 PM EST

ever have a 4 year old give you a lecture about benzene for 30 minutes?

I was that 4 year old. I'm not quick to jump on the bandwagon and claim that I'm one of the people afflicted with this syndrome. But nearly all of the "symptoms" describe how I used to be when I was younger and many of them still apply to me now.

When I was a child, I'm talking around 9 years old, I was fascinated by the concepts of espionage. Agents, double agents, interrogation, and everything else related to that.

Later on I was enthralled by the "Ninja" phenom that swept our popular culture. I did my report (for my school's gifted program) at the end of my 4th grade year about Ninjitsu.

I have always had little desire to socialize with my "peers".

I am THE WORST liar you will ever meet in your life. I can't ususally detect a lie until looking back at a statement in retrospect.

I never thought that this was a syndrome or medical condition, I always just thought it was a part of my personality.

LK

[ Parent ]

This month's SciAm (none / 1) (#411)
by porkchop_d_clown on Mon May 24, 2004 at 12:19:41 PM EST

has a fascinating article on an autistic and his mother. What makes them interesting is that she was able to teach him to write fairly clearly and the resulting diaries provide a great insight into how autism works. How she interacts with him to keep him on subject is what makes the article so interesting, although it also raises questions about how much she's biasing what gets written down.

Will we line up for Grand Theft Auto 5 if it's the exact same thing, only with prettier texture-mapped bruises on the whores? -- David Wong
[ Parent ]
An unlikely (but real) source of help (none / 1) (#429)
by mcrbids on Tue May 25, 2004 at 02:18:42 AM EST

While his intelligence and ability to obsessively concentrate will put him in good stead later on in life, his ability to interact socially will become severely flawed without aggressive actions on our parts as parents now. We need to teach him about eye contact (the kid won't look at anyone while he's talking... he paces and looks at the floor)... we need to teach him about holding a conversation instead of a monologue... we need to teach him all the little things that most people learn subconciously.

I had severe issues with all of these things, leading me to think I may be somewhat inclined towards Asperger's, I have never been diagnosed as such. I've read and identified with various descriptions of mild autism, so I have my inclinations.

Looking people in the eye and being able to effectively communicate is something I always had trouble with as a kid. I tended to be a loner, preferring to play with legos in solitude than with others my age - friends were generally few and very close for me.

I've found a second life by doing the Scientology training routines, AKA "TRs". I'm not a "Scientologist" and in fact am otherwise very strongly opposed to many of the things that are done by that organization.

However, in the TRs I found a workable method to train myself good manners and control over myself when engaging in conversations with other people.

I did TRs 30-40 hours per week for over a month, training in how to look somebody in the eye, how to speak confidently and how to acknowledge and respond to communication received.

I spent weeks on a high, being able to communicate easily and effectively, with people I'd never met before for the first time in my life. Today this comprises a key element to my successes as an adult.

This was life-changing stuff for me!

Whatever the critiques of other Scientology methods, this one worked fantastically for me! My only wish is that this "church" would "pull its head out" and stop all their screwy stuff so that the nuggets could be filtered out.
I kept looking around for somebody to solve the problem. Then I realized... I am somebody! -Anonymouse
[ Parent ]

well let's see the art then (nt) (none / 0) (#378)
by The Terrorists on Sat May 22, 2004 at 01:05:17 PM EST


Watch your mouth, pigfucker. -- Rusty Foster

Bad Diagnoses (none / 1) (#387)
by mburns on Sat May 22, 2004 at 06:28:18 PM EST

I think that there are multiple problems with a differential diagnosis of Asperger's as discussed here.

Asperger's should not be compared to autism, since autism is now seen to result from a severe molecular defect in synapse structure.  If Asperger's really exists, it would consist of a neurological deficit in empathy and sensing social ques; stereotyped obsessions must be redemonstrated as part of the syndrome after more rigorous diagnosis.

The article, Misdiagnosis of the Gifted, identifies a severe and continuing problem:

  • the sensitivity and intensity which is the essence of giftedness is universally misdiagnosed as some pathology or another;
  • the essence of ADHD is now known to be physical uninhibition when distracted; ADD may not be a legitimate category;
  • giftedness mainly entails intense empathy; communication is unimpaired with the equally gifted;
  • anxiety and mood disorders are distiguished by their stereotypy, less apt stickiness, and lesser quality;
  • giftedness is the opposite of addiction, only the intensity is the same; there is a high quality combination of persistence and opportunism.

Michael J. Burns "Signs and wonders of this sort they conjure up perpetually, till one might think Nature as mad as themselves
Huh? (none / 0) (#388)
by NeantHumain on Sat May 22, 2004 at 08:03:33 PM EST

I take it you do realize what you're saying doesn't amount to an ounce of sense.


I hate my sig.


[ Parent ]
I do not realize this. (none / 1) (#391)
by mburns on Sat May 22, 2004 at 09:57:36 PM EST

I do realize, in rereading, that I was trying to be extremely brief due to a loss of the text in my first attempt to post a comment.  What happened to all of my points!

There really are severe analytical or categorical problems in psychiatric diagnosis; giftedness, ADHD, Asperger's, mood disorders, and even perhaps schizophrenia are all confounded with something else in practice.  The behaviorist and radical empiricist orientations in the DSM and other academic work can be debilitating.  Keeping in mind a neurological interpretation can be helpful.

To the best of my ability to discern, there really is substantial academic research behind all of my assertions.  For brevity, I left out all of the references, but this information can be found in the Sci. Am., Science News index, and check out the articles at http://www.sengifted.org/ and my journal at http://slashdot.org/~mburns/journal/ .

Michael J. Burns "Signs and wonders of this sort they conjure up perpetually, till one might think Nature as mad as themselves
[ Parent ]

Re: I do not realize this. (none / 2) (#400)
by NeantHumain on Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:01:52 PM EST

Much of this sounds more like pseudoscience than anything. First of all, ADD is not properly a diagnostic category; however, it usually refers to the inattentive type of ADHD. It's a matter of extent: Have you ever played pool and forgotten whether you knocked in solids or stripes after having just seen the ball go into the pocket? It happens to me a lot.

Many people with Asperger's syndrome have a gulf between verbal and analytical/performance intelligence. I am no exception: My verbal intelligence is almost genius level, but my mathematical/analytical intelligence is on the lower end of average, so my general intelligence averages out to be mildly above average.

Autistic spectrum disorders, including Asperger's syndrome, are known for their lack (not intensity) of empathy. Severely autistic children often cannot distinguish between the thoughts of others and themselves because they lack a conception of the self--known as a theory of the mind (ToM). Aspies have a somewhat less developed ToM.

I also have mood and anxiety disorders, and I can tell you they're no picnic. Obsessive-compulsive disorder is an anxiety disorder with unrealistic worries (obsessions) that the sufferer tries to calm with ritualistic behaviors (compulsions). They're hardly rational and are not something I'd automatically associate with giftedness. After all, it's not exactly rational for someone to develop a compulsive need to wash their hands after touching "dirty things" because they have an obsessive worry about possibly somehow getting sick otherwise.

I don't even know how to discuss the last point made in the grandparent comment.


I hate my sig.


[ Parent ]
I will attempt clear communication. (none / 1) (#401)
by mburns on Sun May 23, 2004 at 06:53:57 PM EST

Prof. Barkley is the standard authority on ADHD outside of the exact DSM scripture.  His writings posit the theory of ADHD which I tried to cite above with great brevity.  His writing neglects the entire concept of ADD as you describe it, it implicitly being quite another type of condition from his point of view, and the only commonality being that it is also conventionally treated with Ritalin.

A research report exists on autism which concludes that it is a very severe neurological problem and details its nature.  And, I am loath to connect any condition so mild as that geekiness index tested for in WIRED to the severity of autism.  I suspect that this particular index falls very short of the needed categorical precision.

There is a great problem with the precision of psychiatric diagnosis, and my special complaint is that the gifted as well as sufferers of other conditions are not treated with the latest precision available from sources other than the DSM.  The description of Asperger's in the DSM is truly miserable in quality.

There are academic papers available which conclude that the gifted are indeed misdiagnosed as having mood disorders, ADHD, ODD or Asperger's.  They list the distinctions to be made which are not normally made.

In my original post, I was trying to briefly list these distinctions.  My motive is to save the gifted from misdiagnosis.

The distinction between Asperger's and giftedness which you refer to was my original point.  I am willing to admit that Asperger's is probably characterized by a neurological difficulty with empathy and social ques, and perhaps by obsessiveness.  The difficulties of the gifted with social ques are only a superficial and misunderstood appearance by comparison.

I replied to your article because I thought there was imprecision which threatened even your diagnosis.  Now, of course, I can not second guess your diagnosis because there is still insufficient data for me to be sure even if I were credentialed.  You have no need to pay attention to me for your personal situation; I am addressing the plight of the gifted who may be misdiagnosed.  I have the inherent right of a philosopher to do so.

Michael J. Burns "Signs and wonders of this sort they conjure up perpetually, till one might think Nature as mad as themselves
[ Parent ]

Interesting (none / 1) (#404)
by NeantHumain on Sun May 23, 2004 at 11:07:44 PM EST

I took a look at that SENG website, and how they describe "giftedness" doesn't sound too far from Asperger's as I experience it (but there are plenty of exacerbating circumstances in my life). However, everything in there is written so verbosely that it seems like they're just using a nicer label for Asperger's and other disorders so long as the affected person is above average in intelligence.

I've talked to several other people with Asperger's online, and many of them say they have intense empathy for other people; but they suppose their facial expressions, body gestures, and comments don't always convey this attitude to other people. For that matter, how can we be sure any of our perceptions and intuitions are realistic at all? Especially since I am said to have Asperger's syndrome, it could very well be possible that, if I think that someone is sad, it could be a delusion born of desperately wanting to be able to perceive other people's emotional states like those NTs do with such facility.

This reminds me of a friend of mine who is mildly delusional herself. She has expressed that she believes she is in imminent danger (persecutory delusions) due to her leadership position in a "nationwide youth organization" (delusions of grandeur), etc. Imagine how hard it is to try to help a friend like this by pointing out the improbability of the situation and by using humor if your own perception that she is delusional might itself be based off a delusional attempt to resolve others' states of mind. After all, she could just be kidding. Or saying such things might be a socially acceptable behavior you could not pick up on because of your Asperger's.


I hate my sig.


[ Parent ]
OK, I am satisfied that you are aware of my issue. (none / 0) (#414)
by mburns on Mon May 24, 2004 at 04:28:51 PM EST

And, I leave you to your further study.
Michael J. Burns "Signs and wonders of this sort they conjure up perpetually, till one might think Nature as mad as themselves
[ Parent ]
Christ on a bike... (none / 2) (#390)
by hundredweight on Sat May 22, 2004 at 08:59:59 PM EST

Swear to god, can we please cut out the paranoid, self-aggrandising posts - from aspies and nerds alike - whining that 'mainstream society' puts labels on people who 'don't like sports or pop music', with the implication that they're oh so fucking superior because they get their kicks from C++ rather than Justin Timberlake.

Whether you've got Aspergers or not (and I don't dispute that AS is real), as long as you keep up the attitude that you are superior and enlightened and that people who don't share your exact interests are mindless automatons incapable of being worthwhile or intelligent, you're going to continue to be ostracised and/or have the shit kicked out of you. I've seen it a million times, geeks who deal with being made fun of by a few kids at school by rationalising (and then carrying the attitude into later life) that they are the lone wolf in a sea of pithy, sycophantic idiots incapable of any substantial thought. Of course, they don't acknowledge that most of the kids who universally get the best marks (I say universally because I know plenty of geeks who can't handle liberal arts subjects and thus sneer at those who can), who dominate socially and in extracurricular activities aren't all wearing clothes from Sears, pocket protectors and playing Dungeons and Dragons. That most of the kids going off to Oxford and Cambridge or Harvard and Yale are incredibly bright and dynamic but otherwise perfectly normal.

And, yeah, for the record, I consider myself one of those.

It's Easy to Misinterpret (none / 1) (#398)
by NeantHumain on Sun May 23, 2004 at 04:23:12 PM EST

I know it's easy to misinterpret me because our experiences are very different; but, when I was saying I'm not interested in pop celebrities and such things, I'm not trying to snear in superiority; I'm merely stating that I have trouble making meaningful conversation with many people in part because I don't share this "common culture" that most people my age have.

And the thing is many of these people who do concern themselves with some of these things aren't stupid and would probably make great friends (because even I don't want to occupy my day with dry, academic interests all the time). The trouble is I inevitably say something "weird," "rude," or maybe some combination of the two, so I'm kicked back to my shell. I went to a high school with a relatively low number of geeks and, even among geeks, I was an outsider because I had no interest in science fiction, animé, etc.

Actually, my interests lean heavily in the liberal arts direction rather than the mathematical/scientific/engineering direction. I'm fascinated with geography and culture, history, linguistics, the French language, art, sociology, philosophy, law, etc. I've had comparatively little interest in physics, chemistry, and so on.


I hate my sig.


[ Parent ]
Well that makes sense, regardless. (none / 0) (#407)
by trejkaz on Mon May 24, 2004 at 02:34:13 AM EST

Naturally most of the kids going off to further studies would be perfectly "normal", because most kids are "normal" in general. I think of our homeroom class of around 30 there would have been 2-3 geeks, and it would take a shitload of luck for those few to go to university and a massive majority of the class to fail or choose not to.

[ Parent ]
Why insist on contrasts? (none / 1) (#410)
by Vendor on Mon May 24, 2004 at 06:23:35 AM EST

A lot of people try and force either-or thinking when it comes to this subject. I agree with a lot of what you're saying. People who completely refuse to acknowledge liberal arts subjects and insist that only technical subjects are important are very naive. I'd say, though, that I don't think there are very many geeks who can honestly say that there is nothing about pop culture they find remotely interesting.

Geeks can still be geeks and play sports, go for a BA instead of a BSc, watch Survivor and Friends, listen to mainstream groups, go to pubs, etc. All that being a geek means, to me, is having an interest in computers. I have been messing around with computers for a long time, but besides that don't fit the other elements of the "geek stereotype" at all, in fact, none of the geeks I've ever met have been stereotypical geeks. (Glasses, skinny, good at mathematics, bad at humanities, dislike physical activities, etc). It's usually a mix and match issue.

Personally, I sucked pretty badly at Mathematics and the Physical sciences. I did well at English and History. I studied liberal arts, a dual major in Bioethics and Economics, minor in History. I like physical activities. But I still consider myself a fully fledged geek - been messing around with Mandrake since '99, used to be a big Amiga fan in the late 80s/early 90s. Programmed a bit of Zope on the side. Even worked as a tech worker from '99 to '02.

So I wasn't brilliant at calculus and I don't know the internals of C++. I don't think that factors like those should disqualify one from being considered a geek.

The rare people who do fall into the category of the stereotypical geek should really stop insisting that all geeks are like them, and forcing people to view all people (including non-math, quasi-mainstream geeks) as negatives or opposites of the geek stereotype.



[ Parent ]
But... (none / 0) (#437)
by A synx on Sat Jun 19, 2004 at 03:35:32 PM EST

But but, c'mon Justin Timberlake??  He is like, soo 90's. XD

[ Parent ]
fsck mainstream psychology :) (none / 1) (#416)
by jbridge21 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 09:10:06 PM EST

congratulations, you won the broken 2nd circuit input functionality lottery! you may now proceed to step B, using your powers of noticing odd things and illogical perseverance to develop sixth circuit (or seventh in RAW's book) functionality. from there you can get all the other things you'll need. for details go find yourself a copy of "Prometheus Rising" or contact me privately.

Thank you! (none / 0) (#438)
by islenskr on Wed Jul 21, 2004 at 10:30:31 AM EST

I am currently writing my MA dissertation for a degree in German Literary Translation. Half of the diss is a translation and the other half is a commentary to it. The piece I've chosen to translate has been written by a German autist, so naturally, I'm doing research into autism and language development. I find this all massively interesting, but for one thing. In my bookish travels, as it were, I've come across two distinct perceptions/perspectives of autism: that on the part of the scientist and that on the part of the autist. While both have their points, it seems to me that the scientists, with their fancy theories, would do well to stop treating autists as some lab rat and start treating them as human beings. Did none of them ever think to ASK the autist what he means/thinks/feels? It's amazing what they might learn! I wanted to thank you, NeantHumain, for your story. The more I read up on autism, the more I"m inclined to depend on those texts the autists have written, rather than the scientists. I would be very interested to ask you a few other questions about sound/speech/music, if you would be willing! :)

Living with Asperger's Syndrome | 443 comments (386 topical, 57 editorial, 5 hidden)
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