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[P]
We need more asylum seekers

By James A C Joyce in Culture
Tue May 25, 2004 at 04:50:52 AM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)
Culture

So, um, the EU got ten new member states a few weeks ago. The tabloids would have we Brits believe that we'd be flooded with "asylum seekers", "migrant workers" and "illegal immigrants" the instant such refugee hotspots as Malta, Estonia and Slovakia became EU members on May the first.

But they didn't. How odd.


A lot of people here in Britain would have you think that asylum seekers are going to be our downfall. "They hijack our health service, they crowd our schools, they eat our swans.". The only unfortunate thing is that they're full of shit.

While it's true that we do get the occasional deviant blundering into our own country and generally acting like an antisocial arsehole, they're very much in the minority. Besides, this is the case for every kind of person who lives here.

In fact, I've noticed that it's generally those who jump up and down and scream and whine about asylum seekers lowering property prices and invading border towns who tend to be the most useless wastes of skin. People who say things like "Should British Nationalists, when we are elected, work with our European neighbours to build a fortified defence around Europe to keep out the Barbarians, sub-humans and savages ?" People who allege that "there are approximately 30 Mexicans for every White kid".

These are the people who need to be eliminated. Not the "invading immigrants" but the degenerates who continually spout racist shite and spend most of their time indulging in gratuitous thuggery. I've never been mugged for a newspaper by an asylum seeker or an illegal immigrant. It's generally lazy arses (invariably Caucasian or black) born in this country who think that they have the right to wander the streets starting shit just because their dad popped a few spunk bubbles in their mother.

Better still, asylum seekers have a delightful tendency to vote liberally. As such, we need all the asylum seekers we can get to keep wankers like the BNP and National Front from getting anywhere near Downing Street. Things are gradually edging towards a nasty situation: in our 2001 general election, the British National Party got 16% of the votes in the constituency of Oldham. For reference, I should point out that the BNP's insightful policies including banning "public promotion and shows of homosexuality", a reinstatement of National Service, and eliminating third world aid.

Here's something hilarious. The same political party which has football hooligans for councillors is the one that's causing the very same race attacks they claim to be against! We don't need a race war, we need a War on Violent and Discriminatory Shitheads. The BNP can have a big fucking Kill-The-Niggers march right down the middle of fucking Oxford Street all they like, but the instant they start anything, pow — they get capped.

Some might say that this is too light on minorities, but I'm wholly aware that there are fundamentalists of other religions who want to kill all who aren't a part. But the fact is that nobody cares about minority fundamentalists. Muslim fundamentalists are not prevalent in the Western world. Christian fundamentalists are. And they should all be shot.

Don't take this wrong way, I see no need for any preemptive strikes. I'm sure we can handle a couple more terrorist attacks. But as you may well know, our police force has managed to foil several terrorist attack plans already. So to the fundamentalists I say: bring it on.

I'm tempted to say the same thing to the pseudolegitimate perps who hide behind political organisations, but being caught in the middle of a riot packed with angry neo-Nazi skinheads doesn't seem like as much fun as triumphantly clambering out of a terroristically derailed train. As such, the best strategy would be to adopt their attractive characteristics without picking up any of the racism. For instance, promise to crack down on people coming into the country, promise that those born here will get higher priority in social services, and promise that we are not about to go into meltdown.

Then don't do it. Hey, that's what politics is all about.

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o Also by James A C Joyce


Display: Sort:
We need more asylum seekers | 117 comments (81 topical, 36 editorial, 0 hidden)
I'd be careful what I say about them (1.66 / 12) (#7)
by Mutually Assured Destruction on Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:11:06 PM EST

If I were you. After all, the exact mentality that you are deriding is the one that drove Britain to its most glorious age of empire in history and made it worth noting in history. It was the only time men were men in Britain, without it you wouldn't even have something to reminisce about.

The Empire was overrated (2.40 / 5) (#19)
by duffbeer703 on Sun May 23, 2004 at 09:41:53 PM EST

Nobody had "free" healthcare during the apex of empire.

[ Parent ]
Healthcare vs. Personal Responsibility (2.25 / 4) (#76)
by smithmc on Tue May 25, 2004 at 10:48:14 AM EST


Nobody had "free" healthcare during the apex of empire.

That's true; people were expected to take care of themselves. Do you think that, just maybe, this sense of personal responsibility might have had something to do with the status of the British Empire back then, vs. now? That maybe people back then didn't sit around waiting to be cared for by the nanny state, because they knew that if they wanted anything out of life, they'd have to get up off their asses and go get it for themselves?

And what's worse is that I would've thought, here in the US, we would've learned from your example, but I'm not sure of that at all.

[ Parent ]

Personal Responsibility (none / 0) (#117)
by cosmo jones on Mon Jul 12, 2004 at 05:01:37 PM EST

Somehow I doubt that the average mill worker in Industrial Britain at the height of the Empire when a third fo the world was pink on the map was in the market of personal responsibility - hence the great drive of Victorian drive towards civic improvement - the building of libraries, baths etc, the creation of civic parks. Far from personal responsibility Imperial Britain had at its heart a sense of collective responsibility even if suffrage was "beyond the pale of the constitution" It was the bourgeois face of socialism. "go get it for themselves" nice view of the working man in Imperial Britian. They did that because thye had no option other than to do that. Work would go to thsoe who wanted it the most for the least money. something which, incidentally all capital-based organisations recognise - hence the demand for migrnat labour. its cheaper cos they'll "get up off their asses and go for it" Better they stay on their ass and demand a living wage, civic accountability through recognised pensions, social security and free healthcare to do it in the first place
cosmo -with my love and what you've got -we could turn the world around - jean wells
[ Parent ]
Certainly (2.62 / 8) (#12)
by melia on Sun May 23, 2004 at 06:27:51 PM EST

being caught in the middle of a riot packed with angry neo-Nazi skinheads doesn't seem like as much fun as triumphantly clambering out of a terroristically derailed train.

What a terrific way of looking at it. You are of course quite right too.
Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong

Immigration is a real threat, despite PC dogma (2.29 / 24) (#21)
by smg on Sun May 23, 2004 at 10:24:21 PM EST

The current politically correct dogma is that anyone who opposes immigration is an evil racist and/or a neo-nazi skinhead. This is despite the fact that there are many obvious problems with allowing the mass immigration of thousands of people into Western countries - overpopulation, poverty, crime and the erosion of national solidarity. I am no skinhead or neo-nazi, but a liberal with many migrant friends, probably more than you, and I believe that immigration is a real threat, not just to the West but to the undeveloped world.

Overpopulation is the most important issue. It's clear, ecologically, that there's already far too many humans on the planet. The West is being responsible and generally has low, sub-replacement fertility rates. This may be for economic rather than ecological reasons, but the benefit is the same regardless. Undeveloped nations, on the other hand, often have massive population problems, and by allowing immigration, you are importing the problem. Sure, the yearly intake may not be much (~150,000 a year for Britain), but migrants are likely to have many more children than non-migrants and the effect accumulates over the years. Undeveloped societies should be forced to deal with their population problem until they take responsible measures like China's One Child program.

There are obvious connections between crime and migration, even though they are covered up by the PC press. Where I live, there are constant reports of migrants being involved in criminal activity. Before you dismiss this argument as racist, I'd like to see some statistics or evidence disproving this connection, as it is quite obvious from reading the paper and noting surnames that migrants are more likely to be involved in crime.

Migrant workers also drain the economy by sending remittances home. Remittances account for hundreds of billions every year and are not to be scoffed at.

Allowing trained workers to migrate means that you are depriving undeveloped nations of the important professional class. Similarly, capital flight to the West means that the 2nd and 3rd worlds are starved of local investment capital as it all gets sunk into the economies of the West. Immigration can harm undeveloped countries just as much as the West.

Why are people being indoctrinated that any opposition to immigration equates to evil racism? The elite business class in Western society benefits from immigration because it guarantees a local supply of cheap labour. Forcing Western workers to compete with foreigners is a continuing trend in the globalization of the labour market. It's all part of the neoliberal agenda to erode the rights of Western citizens in order to find the cheapest possible labour.

Furthermore, multiculturalism increases the legitimacy of the neoliberal state, because mutual xenophobia and cultural gap means that people feel less connection to their fellow citizen. Without solidarity, people cannot mobilize against the growing capitalist exploitation and repression of the proletariat. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most socialist Western nations (i.e. Scandinavia) are also the most ethnically homogenous.

wow what a writeup (1.00 / 7) (#30)
by dimaq on Mon May 24, 2004 at 05:08:52 AM EST

I don't claim I could parse more than the half of it - I couldn't.

You however really deserve to co-author this article cause that didn't parse easily either.

[ Parent ]

Then learn English, asshole (1.18 / 11) (#32)
by smg on Mon May 24, 2004 at 06:06:12 AM EST



[ Parent ]
oh so you're an angry troll too (1.00 / 5) (#39)
by dimaq on Mon May 24, 2004 at 10:17:21 AM EST

not just someone whose style is long-winded prose.

oh my.

[ Parent ]

zzzzzzzzzzzzz... (1.00 / 7) (#34)
by fenix down on Mon May 24, 2004 at 06:29:54 AM EST

Seriously, the fuck you talking about, Brit-boy?  Cut this down to 1/2 a paragraph and get back to us.

[ Parent ]
Hmmmmm..... (1.75 / 4) (#37)
by Saad on Mon May 24, 2004 at 07:21:45 AM EST

"The elite business class in Western society benefits from immigration because it guarantees a local supply of cheap labour. Forcing Western workers to compete with foreigners is a continuing trend in the globalization of the labour market."

I think I missed your point. Why exactly is that wrong?


"POST COITUM OMNE ANIMAL TRISTE EST."
[ Parent ]
not so sure about that (2.33 / 9) (#38)
by TearsInTheRain on Mon May 24, 2004 at 09:14:57 AM EST

two of the most socialist western countries, sweden and holland, have the most liberal immigration policies and a large makeup of their city population is now made of immigrants.  Or look at Canada for example.  So much for that argument.

I will agree that the % of immigrants commiting crimes is probably higher than % of natives (there are a few guardian articles claiming the same).

You will note however that emmigration from China and India have dropped off substantially in the past few years.  Why?  Well, why would anyone go through the hardship of going to a foreign country and starting from scratch (and all the racism, etc to deal with) when you can now finally improve your life (imho) easier at home?  That is one of the advantages of outsourcing.  

I do think something needs to be done to support african and middle eastern countries to get their economies growing, that would be the best solution to prevent immigration problems.

[ Parent ]

Good points (1.57 / 7) (#46)
by smg on Mon May 24, 2004 at 11:26:48 AM EST

two of the most socialist western countries, sweden and holland, have the most liberal immigration policies and a large makeup of their city population is now made of immigrants.  Or look at Canada for example.  So much for that argument.
Good point, but their current liberal immigration policy does not change the historical fact that Scandinavian countries are relatively ethnically homogeneous. As for Canada, I believe it's socialist nature is somewhat exaggerated by it's southern neighbour. But point taken.

You will note however that emmigration from China and India have dropped off substantially in the past few years.  Why?  Well, why would anyone go through the hardship of going to a foreign country and starting from scratch (and all the racism, etc to deal with) when you can now finally improve your life (imho) easier at home?  That is one of the advantages of outsourcing.  
Absolutely. Immigration, like tourism, is a symptomatic of the massive economic disparity between the North and South. As globalization redistributes wealth and income, the patterns of migration will no doubt change. I doubt, however, that the peripheries will ever manage to reach parity with the economic core of the West and there will always be incentive to migrate, particularly from the poorest and most desperate segments of society.

I do think something needs to be done to support african and middle eastern countries to get their economies growing, that would be the best solution to prevent immigration problems.
Yes. Reparations for slavery and democratization of oil wealth might be some good places to start.

[ Parent ]
Canada (2.57 / 7) (#62)
by calimehtar on Mon May 24, 2004 at 06:03:52 PM EST

I think Canada's socialist nature is irrelevant here. The fact is there are a lot of immigrants here, and not a lot of crime.

+++

The whole point of the Doomsday Machine is lost if you keep it a secret.


[ Parent ]
Immigrant crime (none / 0) (#109)
by mpmansell on Sun May 30, 2004 at 01:00:04 PM EST

Well, I'm sure there are native 'Canadians' who would argue that most of the crime is caused by immigrants :)

[ Parent ]
for sure (none / 0) (#115)
by calimehtar on Tue Jun 08, 2004 at 03:10:24 PM EST

But if you look at the stats for violent crime per city, the correlation isn't in favour of places with large numbers of immigrants. Two of the most violent Canadian cities are Edmonton and Thunder Bay which are both isolated WASP enclaves by comparison to places like Vancouver and Toronto. Toronto is down near the bottom of the group, though admittedly the numbers are rising and largely due to drug-related violence in the Jamaican-Canadian community.

+++

The whole point of the Doomsday Machine is lost if you keep it a secret.


[ Parent ]
Remittances (none / 2) (#45)
by alby on Mon May 24, 2004 at 11:22:41 AM EST

Are there figures available for the amount of money sent abroad as remittances?

--
Alby
[ Parent ]

Same old tired bullshit (2.37 / 8) (#69)
by godix on Tue May 25, 2004 at 01:56:32 AM EST

Overpopulation is the most important issue. It's clear, ecologically, that there's already far too many humans on the planet.

Bullshit. Here's a few numbers to consider:
World population: ~6.4 billion
Population Density of Manhatten Island (per sq mile): 66,940
# of square miles to host entire world population at same density as Manhatten: ~95600 (no link, just do some math)
Square miles in the Texas: 261,797

If we wanted we could fit the entire world population into less than half of one state. That doesn't sound like overpopulation to me.

Undeveloped nations, on the other hand, often have massive population problems, and by allowing immigration, you are importing the problem.

Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Netherlands, Belgium, and Japan all have higher population densities than India. Furthermore Israel, United Kingdom, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, and Luxembourg all have higher densities than China. Yup, it's obvious your right. The only places with massive populations are backwards third world hellholes. Glad I don't have to live in any of them, especially the fucking UK, I hear they're a bunch of wankers over there.
Where I live, there are constant reports of migrants being involved in criminal activity. Before you dismiss this argument as racist, I'd like to see some statistics or evidence disproving this connection, as it is quite obvious from reading the paper and noting surnames that migrants are more likely to be involved in crime.

Before I accept this arguement as anything but racist I'd like to see some statistics or evidence proving this connection. Not that I entirely disagree, I imagine migrants are more likely to be involved in crime, but I'm not going to blame someone for being a victim.
Why are people being indoctrinated that any opposition to immigration equates to evil racism?

Perhaps because more opposition ot immigration is evil racism at least in part. For a perfect example, look above.

Thank god I'm worth more than SilentChris

[ Parent ]
Yeah, bullshit to you, fuckface (2.00 / 12) (#70)
by smg on Tue May 25, 2004 at 04:05:54 AM EST

Bullshit. Here's a few numbers to consider:
World population: ~6.4 billion
Population Density of Manhatten Island (per sq mile): 66,940
# of square miles to host entire world population at same density as Manhatten: ~95600 (no link, just do some math)
Square miles in the Texas: 261,797

If we wanted we could fit the entire world population into less than half of one state. That doesn't sound like overpopulation to me.

Horseshit. In fact, that's the most ridiculous and facile analysis of the population issue I have yet to see. The problem isn't living space - it's the space required to support each person's requirement of food, energy and water - the ecological footprint. And the average American requires 9.7 hectares to support themselves. Manhattanites may be densely packed together, but a very large area is devoted to providing them with energy, food and water. If an entire state was as densely populated as Manhattan, the rest of the globe would need to be devoted to providing it with resources.

Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Netherlands, Belgium, and Japan all have higher population densities than India. Furthermore Israel, United Kingdom, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, and Luxembourg all have higher densities than China. Yup, it's obvious your right. The only places with massive populations are backwards third world hellholes. Glad I don't have to live in any of them, especially the fucking UK, I hear they're a bunch of wankers over there.
Again, the question isn't simply population vs area. It's a question of population vs arable land, available water and energy supply. The Saharan desert is sparsely populated, but that doesn't mean it can support any more. A lot of China is arid.

Before I accept this arguement as anything but racist I'd like to see some statistics or evidence proving this connection. Not that I entirely disagree, I imagine migrants are more likely to be involved in crime, but I'm not going to blame someone for being a victim.
You're naive if you think for a second that governments would fund studies which analyze a connection between migrants and crime.

Perhaps because more opposition ot immigration is evil racism at least in part. For a perfect example, look above.
Excuse me, fuckface, are you accusing me of being a racist? As I said, I have lots of migrant friends, probably more than you. If pointing out the obvious is your criteria for racism, then I guess some of Britain's most senior officers are racists, too.

[ Parent ]
Some of your best friends are... (none / 1) (#84)
by tonedevil on Tue May 25, 2004 at 07:19:34 PM EST

whatever.

[ Parent ]
"already this fucked"? [nt] (none / 1) (#86)
by Aaron Aaronnson on Tue May 25, 2004 at 08:23:28 PM EST



[ Parent ]
"lots of migrant friends"... (none / 1) (#92)
by Insoc on Wed May 26, 2004 at 04:11:52 AM EST

May I direct you to www.weloveblackpeople.com ?

[ Parent ]
well fuck, nevermind... (none / 2) (#93)
by Insoc on Wed May 26, 2004 at 04:15:22 AM EST

Apparently that site isn't up anywhere. Shite. Assuming most people here have seen it before anyways, I think my point stands.

[ Parent ]
blackpeopleloveus.com (none / 1) (#107)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Fri May 28, 2004 at 02:06:29 PM EST

NT

[ Parent ]
Re: Immigration is a real threat, despite PC dogma (none / 2) (#75)
by bob6 on Tue May 25, 2004 at 10:30:34 AM EST

Overpopulation is the most important issue. [...]
I have the intuition that immigration is importing back a previously exported problem. So I'm waiting the other sub-thread ("the world population fits in Texas") to develop further to form an opinion.
There are obvious connections between crime and migration [...]
Of course, an illegal immigrant is commiting a crime by being there and if he works, then it's an even worse crime. Thus it could be argued that the connection between crime and immigration is an argument to opening borders so immigrants wouldn't be illegal at all. (Btw the same angle is also used in favour of legalization of drug use).
Allowing trained workers to migrate means that you are depriving undeveloped nations of the important professional class. [...]
I fully agree, furthermore highly educated worker immigrants are never illegal. It is worthy to note that US and EU main exportations are intellectual property, services and technology. While it imports (from 2nd and 3rd world) agriculture, raw materials and low technology manufactured products. By allowing -say- an engineer to immigrate but not -like- the ploughman, we maintain the underdevelopment and oppression of the 3rd world. It could be argued that immigration is a part of the redistribution of wealth at a global level.
[...] It's all part of the neoliberal agenda to erode the rights of Western citizens in order to find the cheapest possible labour.
True, but at the same time, the neoliberal knows (at least, I hope) that really cheap labour isn't very effective. Also, if legal, the immigrant has the same rights than locals -including the equality of salary, then a social policy (read: nonneoliberal) is at works. Immigration is not to blame, but rather the way we treat it. However (alas) our beloved democracies aren't so fair to legal immigrants. I understood that the article preciselypoints the hypocrisy of the legal/illegal immigration categories.
Furthermore, multiculturalism increases the legitimacy of the neoliberal state, because mutual xenophobia and cultural gap means that people feel less connection to their fellow citizen. Without solidarity, people cannot mobilize against the growing capitalist exploitation and repression of the proletariat. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most socialist Western nations (i.e. Scandinavia) are also the most ethnically homogenous.
I'm not sure what you meant. Care to reformulate this?

Cheers.
[ Parent ]
Actually (none / 3) (#98)
by tetsuwan on Wed May 26, 2004 at 03:57:06 PM EST

The last point was the clearest. I don't substantially agree with the conclusion, but the problem does exist anyhow. Whites and blacks in the states are still highly segregated. His example isn't quite right - but we have the problems of segration in Sweden too. 50 years ago, when the welfare state was being built in Sweden, "WE" were everybody - except the morally and intellectually inferior, of course. That was much thanks to a successful nationalism, that is a man in Lund could accept to share his tax money with a poor man in Haparanda, almost 1000 miles away.


Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

The media & other points. (none / 1) (#101)
by Blaest on Wed May 26, 2004 at 07:33:45 PM EST

Has it ever occured to you that many newspapers disproportionately report crimes committed by immigrants? Here in the UK this is a rampant problem. The right-wing press (Daily Mail, etc.) start furor every time an asylum seeker is charged for a crime using it as a respectable front for essentially racist views.

Moreover, asylum seekers are marginalised, forced to work illegally in poor conditions for little pay thus reduced to poverty with no stake in society. I'm not saying that this is the sole reason but it's surely be a part of the reason if your claim on disproportionate crime rates is indeed true.

The capital flight caused by a small percentage of people leaving their countries each year for the west is surely nothing compared to the complete draining of many developing economies caused by neo-colonialist business practises.

---

[ Parent ]
Here's a switch... (1.75 / 8) (#24)
by Skywise on Mon May 24, 2004 at 12:16:07 AM EST

I get to opine on another country's problems for once!  Ha!

Given that Europe is oh so much more socialist than the US (as everyone must constantly point out) I'm suprised the EU hasn't implemented universal health care?

Oh, and re: Muslim Fundamentalists not being prevalent in the Western world... I think you might want to take that up with France...

Sarcastic Pedant (none / 2) (#42)
by whazat on Mon May 24, 2004 at 10:38:55 AM EST

Do we have to give health care to the venutians as well?

[ Parent ]
Well, in the US... (none / 2) (#53)
by Skywise on Mon May 24, 2004 at 11:56:29 AM EST

It's currently trendy in socialist circles to want to establish health care for everybody in the US.  Illegal immigrants included.

[ Parent ]
Let 'em do it! (2.75 / 4) (#77)
by smithmc on Tue May 25, 2004 at 11:16:25 AM EST


It's currently trendy in socialist circles to want to establish health care for everybody in the US.

Well, then, let's let the Trendy Socialist Circle people do it, then. And they can pay for it, too. After all, they're Trendy Socialists - what would they care about something as bourgeois as money?

[ Parent ]

Yawn (none / 1) (#78)
by nebbish on Tue May 25, 2004 at 11:56:40 AM EST

Illegal immigrants filling jobs others won't do
Putting money into the economy
Healthcare means higher productivity

It's all pretty basic, you know.

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee
[ Parent ]

But (none / 1) (#79)
by spiralx on Tue May 25, 2004 at 11:57:23 AM EST

As a proportion of GDP the US already outspends the UK, Canada, France and every other nation on the planet on health care while not providing universal coverage. So arguments about money seem a little spurious.

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

So ? (none / 2) (#88)
by kurioszyn on Wed May 26, 2004 at 01:03:19 AM EST

Well, you get what you pay for ...

[ Parent ]
It's not about the cost. (none / 2) (#97)
by smithmc on Wed May 26, 2004 at 01:27:01 PM EST


So arguments about money seem a little spurious.

That would be true, if it were the cost that I were worried about. There are other issues, like quality of care, freedom of choice, and just plain keeping the goddamned government out of my goddamned life. I know you Euros and Brits just love having the government crawling up your asses, but we don't (or at least I don't).

[ Parent ]

procrastination & socialized medicine (none / 2) (#87)
by Greenarchist on Tue May 25, 2004 at 10:36:20 PM EST

 The lack of a comprehensive health program for all citizens/residents in the USA is just another form of defecit spending. The USA's government has accepted responsibility for the medical care of the dying and aged, but does not provide preventative care.

 This leads to a system within which the government ends up footing the bill for crisis care which is more expensive (both financially and socially) in many cases than the preventative care.

I know that these are totally unsuported arguments, but I've just finished two beers
braaap


[ Parent ]

Universal health care in France (none / 2) (#74)
by pguyot on Tue May 25, 2004 at 08:26:27 AM EST

FYI, there is universal health care in France since L. Jospin's government.

[ Parent ]
Same goes for (none / 1) (#111)
by vyruss on Mon May 31, 2004 at 02:24:28 PM EST

Sweden, the UK and Greece (and probably all 15 "old" EU members)

  • PRINT CHR$(147)

[ Parent ]
Muslim Fundamentalists in France (none / 0) (#112)
by o reor on Tue Jun 01, 2004 at 09:30:15 AM EST

They do get a lot of media attention here, but they are certainly no more prevalent than in Britain. Let's not forget that it's only a few imams compared with a community of a potential 4 million muslims.

With that being said, indeed, since the districts these people live in are taken little care of, when public services like education, health care or police get scarcer, they tend to be replaced by religious leaders and charities. So we have to be careful about it...

[ Parent ]

You're not very tolerant (1.14 / 21) (#26)
by NaCh0 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 12:21:34 AM EST

I should point out that the BNP's insightful policies including banning "public promotion and shows of homosexuality", ...

These people have some good ideas.

--
K5: Your daily dose of socialism.

Like what? (2.25 / 4) (#33)
by fenix down on Mon May 24, 2004 at 06:13:50 AM EST



[ Parent ]
I quoted one (1.07 / 13) (#63)
by NaCh0 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 06:56:23 PM EST

Public display of faggotry is indecency at its worst.

--
K5: Your daily dose of socialism.
[ Parent ]
Oh. (none / 3) (#64)
by fenix down on Tue May 25, 2004 at 12:14:33 AM EST



[ Parent ]
What about race mixing? (none / 1) (#91)
by Reisender on Wed May 26, 2004 at 03:49:35 AM EST

Do you feel miscegenation is almost as bad?

[ Parent ]
We do need more Iraqis .. (2.33 / 6) (#28)
by Highlander on Mon May 24, 2004 at 02:36:55 AM EST

So who would these new asylum seekers be ?
Iraqis seeking asylum from the US troops ?

I think I should comment on the article :-P, not just the headline.

I don't think the new EU states really open new borders, since I guess most of them will have signed into the Schengen agreement on pushing asylum seekers to the first country were they entered the Schengen area.

What should increase is the number of foreign workers. These usually don't get the full right to vote.


Moderation in moderation is a good thing.

Depends how you define "foreign worker" (none / 0) (#89)
by Quietti on Wed May 26, 2004 at 03:44:23 AM EST

Finland defines it as "anyone who is not a refugee or married to a Finn", more or less.

That, in practice, means that a truckload of people who have been living here for ages and who don't even remember where they came from are still given a succession of "temporary work" permits.

One single thing I like about USA: the right to tax is based on the right to vote. You want my tax money, I want the right to decide who gets into office.

If Finland wants my tax money, it better start giving me voting rights where it matters: Parliamentary elections. Limiting voting rights at the municipal level is downright insulting.

--
The whole point of civilization is to reduce how much the average person has to think. - Stef Murky
[ Parent ]

What (none / 1) (#108)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Fri May 28, 2004 at 02:17:15 PM EST

Sorry, but the USA has been taxing me since way before I was allowed to vote.

Tim
"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

Top Rant, +1FP (2.77 / 9) (#31)
by nebbish on Mon May 24, 2004 at 05:10:25 AM EST

And for any UKians not registered to vote in the European elections - remember it's proportional representation and the BNP are 1% off getting a seat. You've only got a couple of weeks, so get onto it. It will be your fault if they do well.

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee

Here, Here! (3.00 / 4) (#49)
by alby on Mon May 24, 2004 at 11:33:40 AM EST

By the way, if you read The Daily Mail, your right to vote has been revoked.

--
Alby
[ Parent ]

Should be "Hear, hear", I know. (2.75 / 4) (#50)
by alby on Mon May 24, 2004 at 11:39:02 AM EST

Short for something like "Hear all you people, hear what this guy has to say" I think.

--
Alby
[ Parent ]

Indeed. (none / 2) (#61)
by Phillip Asheo on Mon May 24, 2004 at 05:38:12 PM EST

True patriots should be voting UKIP.

--
"Never say what you can grunt. Never grunt what you can wink. Never wink what you can nod, never nod what you can shrug, and don't shrug when it ain't necessary"
-Earl Long
[ Parent ]

Good god no (none / 2) (#71)
by nebbish on Tue May 25, 2004 at 04:52:00 AM EST

Kilroy Silk and Joan Collins are NOT a dream ticket.

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee
[ Parent ]

Its about policies, not personalities. (none / 0) (#102)
by Phillip Asheo on Wed May 26, 2004 at 08:05:11 PM EST

Lets face it, its time the UK crapped or got off the pot. I favour the second option.

--
"Never say what you can grunt. Never grunt what you can wink. Never wink what you can nod, never nod what you can shrug, and don't shrug when it ain't necessary"
-Earl Long
[ Parent ]

Didn't The Clash write this song already? (2.55 / 9) (#35)
by fenix down on Mon May 24, 2004 at 06:54:32 AM EST

Has England really not gotten anywhere since 1980?  And I'm looking at this as an American, we still don't belive in evolution, for fuck's sake, but even we've learned to make up elaborate conspiracy theories about secretive Mexican eugenics societies to keep them from getting elected governor instead of trying to keep them out.

Learn some fucking tact, Jesus.  The right way to do this is to just use endless strings of insane non-sequiturs, don't go around trying to claim shit, that just gets you in trouble.  Follow our lead.  Make sure everyone knows that you only hate the coons, wetbacks, chinks, gooks, kikes and sand-niggers because they're racist.  Advocate a theocracy to prevent religious intolerence.  Assert that feminists hate women.  Oppose gay marriage because gays hate marriage.  When Jews criticize a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant politician, it's because they're anti-semitic.

Also, what the fuck is a "paki"?

Paki -> someone from pakistan - nt (none / 2) (#40)
by whazat on Mon May 24, 2004 at 10:35:21 AM EST



[ Parent ]
You should know, your President uses the term [nt] (none / 2) (#52)
by nebbish on Mon May 24, 2004 at 11:53:05 AM EST


---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee
[ Parent ]

ASYLUM? (2.40 / 15) (#55)
by flippy on Mon May 24, 2004 at 12:56:25 PM EST

Call it whatever you want, but if I have a wife and kid to feed, I'm going to where the jobs are, legal or not.  This whole idea of "countries" and "political ideologies" is just derived from fatasses sitting in there airconditioned offices vomiting horse-shit on their computer screens whilst the "migrants" are sweating their ball off mowing your friggen lawn.

What is there really to debate here.  When the jobs where I live go away, I'm coming for yours.

Flippy

Personally, I don't have a problem with that. (3.00 / 6) (#56)
by squigly on Mon May 24, 2004 at 02:37:59 PM EST

In my simplistic view of things, I hope your job pays well, and you have some spare money left over.  That means you pay taxes, and you have money to spend on goods and services.  Both of these sound they'll be beneficial to my country.

[ Parent ]
IAWTP and... (none / 0) (#104)
by vqp on Wed May 26, 2004 at 09:08:00 PM EST

How "capitalism" works? money and goods are free (If only!) to flow, but CONSUMERS and WORKERS not?, where is it written?



happiness = d(Reality - Expectations) / dt

[ Parent ]
Hmm (1.50 / 4) (#59)
by Phillip Asheo on Mon May 24, 2004 at 05:31:37 PM EST

But they didn't. How odd.

Perhaps thats because if you are a white eastern European you could pretty easily get a job in the UK before the EU enlargement, so most of the people who wanted to emigrate already did.

--
"Never say what you can grunt. Never grunt what you can wink. Never wink what you can nod, never nod what you can shrug, and don't shrug when it ain't necessary"
-Earl Long

Even Fascists can be right sometimes. (1.75 / 12) (#60)
by Phillip Asheo on Mon May 24, 2004 at 05:34:18 PM EST

a reinstatement of National Service, and eliminating third world aid.

These are both eminently sensible ideas. Just because the BNP is in favour of something, doesn't make it automatically wrong. Mussolini made the trains run on time for example.

--
"Never say what you can grunt. Never grunt what you can wink. Never wink what you can nod, never nod what you can shrug, and don't shrug when it ain't necessary"
-Earl Long

trains ran on time? (2.83 / 6) (#65)
by cronian on Tue May 25, 2004 at 12:15:26 AM EST

Actually, it is quite questionable whether Mussolini's trains actually did run on time. According to Snopes he just didn't let anyone report when the trains didn't run on time.

We perfect it; Congress kills it; They make it; We Import it; It must be anti-Americanism
[ Parent ]
there you go. (none / 2) (#103)
by Phillip Asheo on Wed May 26, 2004 at 08:06:04 PM EST

If snopes says it, it must be true.

--
"Never say what you can grunt. Never grunt what you can wink. Never wink what you can nod, never nod what you can shrug, and don't shrug when it ain't necessary"
-Earl Long
[ Parent ]

Also (none / 0) (#105)
by JayGarner on Wed May 26, 2004 at 10:12:39 PM EST

If the train didn't run on time, he made you drink a quart of olive oil, and you shat yourself to death.

[ Parent ]
No, Mussolini lied about making the trains run (2.80 / 5) (#72)
by nebbish on Tue May 25, 2004 at 05:02:25 AM EST

on time. One thing about being a dictator is that the papers say what you want them to say.

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee
[ Parent ]

What's the difference? (2.75 / 4) (#80)
by SPYvSPY on Tue May 25, 2004 at 12:21:12 PM EST

Personally, I would just change "on time" to mean whenever the trains show up.
------------------------------------------------

By replying to this or any other comment in this thread, you assign an equal share of all worldwide copyright in such reply to each of the other readers of this site.
[ Parent ]

You... (none / 1) (#95)
by Wah on Wed May 26, 2004 at 11:09:20 AM EST

...would make a good dictator.

;-)
--
Help us cross the digital divide, yo.
[ Parent ]

big deal (none / 2) (#81)
by Roast Pork and Eggs on Tue May 25, 2004 at 12:42:31 PM EST

even the french manage to have their trains run on time.

[ Parent ]
Bravo. (2.50 / 6) (#82)
by tiamat on Tue May 25, 2004 at 01:54:44 PM EST

Stand up to the racist & fear mongering idiots.

There will be a price to pay... (1.00 / 9) (#83)
by freddie on Tue May 25, 2004 at 05:27:04 PM EST

In western europe imigration is pretty much open to anyone that can contribute anything. Germany recently had a 'quota' for immigration from India that didn't get filled.  I guess those Indians are simply too smart...

So who does apply for asylum?  AIDS-ridden criminals.

If England and the rest of the EU choose to fill themselves with this trash from the entire world, there won't only be a price to pay today, but a much higher price will be paid in future years, as the 'asylum seekers' and their offspring come to outnumber the native Europeans.  It will come at a time when the world's resources, especially oil, are running out and the results will be ugly, perhaps ending with the genocide of the native population.


Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein

quite far from open (none / 2) (#90)
by Quietti on Wed May 26, 2004 at 03:48:44 AM EST

...even in Germany. Their 5-year IT visa is great for people who just like to move around a lot, but it definitely isn't helping anyone who wants to actually settle down there.

--
The whole point of civilization is to reduce how much the average person has to think. - Stef Murky
[ Parent ]
And this isn't shot down yet? (none / 3) (#94)
by trezor on Wed May 26, 2004 at 04:52:58 AM EST

    So who does apply for asylum? AIDS-ridden criminals.

I'm surprised you aren't shot down yet for such a statement, but heck. I'll admit there are bad apples everywhere in the world.

Shutting the borders because some asylum-seekers abuse the system, is like shutting down the entire disabillity-check system, because there are some frauds. I.e. a bad idea.

There is something called justified scepticism, and something called racism. And as for a future genocide of "natives", what prophet did you consult to gain such insight?

Just asking.


--
Richard Dean Anderson porn? - Now spread the news

[ Parent ]
Bring it on! [nt] (none / 2) (#96)
by nebbish on Wed May 26, 2004 at 11:25:30 AM EST


---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee
[ Parent ]

Excellent (none / 0) (#106)
by clambake on Thu May 27, 2004 at 11:10:41 PM EST

So who does apply for asylum?  AIDS-ridden criminals.

Then they will wipe themselves out in ten years I guess...  Good job, eh?

[ Parent ]

Wondered where (none / 0) (#110)
by GenerationY on Mon May 31, 2004 at 11:12:58 AM EST

you'd got to Baldrson!

[ Parent ]
Labor and Immigration (none / 3) (#85)
by cdguru on Tue May 25, 2004 at 07:30:23 PM EST

I don't know if all of Europe is experiencing this, but certainly what I have seen is that "asylum seekers" and undocumented immigrants have a very strong effect on wages and the general economy.

For the short term, this is an extremely positive effect. Businesses find people willing to work for less, since it is considerably more than they were getting before. The worker's are often dedicated because they have limited expectations and needs and they feel they are being rewarded for their efforts. This does have an effect of displacing native workers from those jobs, but these were not usually jobs the native workers wanted in the first place.

The benefits to everyone living in that area are clear - higher wages for jobs that cannot be performed by low-skill labor and lower costs for goods and services.

The problem is that over a longer period of time the wage base becomes degraded - wages tend to stagnate even below normal inflation and cost of living adjustments. New workers are quite willing to displace existing workers for the same wages because again it is better than they were getting back home. The costs for goods and services where such low-wage jobs are involved become unrealistically low, often too low to sustain any business other than those operating on a massive scale that can cost-shift between items with varying margins. The best example of this in the US is Wal-Mart, but on a larger front you need to look at fast food and service restaurants.

Wal-Mart prices show negative inflation which can be attributed to forcing suppliers to lower costs, but also reflect a zero or less-than-inflation growth of their labor costs. Burgers in the US at mainstream fast-food shops have remained virtually the same for the last 20 years. This is clearly in part due to the labor costs not keeping up with inflation.

Where does this leave us? If 20 years ago the jobs were merely undesireable to native workers, today they represent absurd compensation - you can make more money begging on the street. We have virtually eliminated the possibility of using native workers in vast segments of the labor force because of this. While we enjoy the fruits of this today - because of lower costs, what we face in the end is that this labor pool will never be able attain purchasing power equal to native workers. This could eventually force a shrinkage of the economy because there will be an entire underclass that has no hope of purchasing the same items. However, it is far more likely that eventually this labor pool will reach a bottom level where they can no longer afford to work at that wage. If there is no more pool of low-cost labor, what happens? While you might have accepted a 2% per year increase in prices at McDonalds' over the past 20 years, taking a 50% (or more) price hike all at one time would be unacceptable. Same goes for your service restaurant - when they can no longer pay kitchen help and busboys $2 an hour (plus a share of the tips) it will be impossible for them to adjust prices in a manner that will allow them to keep most customers.

Conclusion: importing below-scale labor is not a long-term strategy and will eventually lead to the collapse of most businesses. Certainly the smaller ones that have come to rely on this pool of labor. This ends up with Wal-Mart, CitiBank and Microsoft owning everything.

Switzerland (none / 1) (#99)
by tetsuwan on Wed May 26, 2004 at 04:16:34 PM EST

Thus, in Switzerland, where the minimum wage in some Kantons is some $24 000 a year, a normal pizza is $15. I don't think they have the same problem as London, where around 400 000 illegal immigrants are employed in the businesses you describe. I don't know exactly how things work in Switzerland, but they do seem to work quite well.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

Article on the right-wing press ... (none / 2) (#100)
by Blaest on Wed May 26, 2004 at 07:06:49 PM EST

The right-wing press uses these people as a scapegoat to draw attention away from those who are a real burden to the state:

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/1890/IX.HTM

---

250,000 australians (none / 0) (#113)
by enterfornone on Thu Jun 03, 2004 at 02:23:28 AM EST

I'm pretty sure there are just as many Brits, if not more, working in Australia.

Of course it is certainly a race thing. Here in Australia we are constantly hearing that migrants (mostly asian or middle eastern) will take our jobs but at the same time the government says that (white) australians need to have more kids because of an aging population.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]

You know what? (none / 0) (#114)
by Orion Blastar on Sun Jun 06, 2004 at 08:56:53 PM EST

They are just looking for a better way of life, and don't want to bother filling out paperwork for a legal immigration.

It isn't their fault that they have a poor economy, opressive leaders who steal money meant for food and medicine, no jobs, etc in their country. They just got born in the wrong country is all.

It is also not their fault that they cannot speak or read or learn to speak or read your native language.

Or countries have the wealth, the freedom, the jobs, the resources, the economy, etc that can help them out.

Of course they are law breakers, breaking immigration laws. Catch them and send them back home, f*ck them for not filling out the proper paperwork. Do the right thing and immigrate legally or go home!
*** Anonymized by intolerant editors at K5 and also IWETHEY who are biased against the mentally ill ***

I Concur [nt] (none / 0) (#116)
by 5pectre on Sun Jun 13, 2004 at 02:15:10 PM EST



"Let us kill the English, their concept of individual rights might undermine the power of our beloved tyrants!!" - Lisa Simpson [ -1.50 / -7.74]

We need more asylum seekers | 117 comments (81 topical, 36 editorial, 0 hidden)
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