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[P]
The Sad, But Interesting Truth About Naked Lunch and William S. Burroughs

By Egil Skallagrimson in Culture
Tue May 24, 2005 at 10:11:54 PM EST
Tags: Books (all tags)
Books

If you have never read Naked Lunch, this essay will serve as an appropriate introduction to the work of a man who was both a 20th century genius and a 20th century failure. The purpose is to color your viewpoint in the correct shade, so that often controversial antics in the real world (which usually precedes an initial reading of Burroughs) will be superseded by the respect for his important literary contributions to the canon of English Literature. Call it a preemptive strike on misguidance. That being said, the first essay is about his life, just to get that part out of the way right away, and to make a simple point: that his work and his life are different, and do not always influence one another. More than anything else in this essay, the point is to paint a portrait of a lonely man who wrote to escape from mistakes in life.


Some would argue that Burroughs makes no contribution to our language. However, his relevance over the years has rivaled that of Jack Kerouac, Louis-Ferdinand Celine, Samuel Beckett (as far as his prose work is concerned) and Henry Miller, all figures that were seen as pushing the boundaries of what was considered to be acceptable Literature in their day, and does not seem to be fading. (One could also make a strong argument for his superiority to Bukowski, as well, but time will tell. My personal feeling is that he certainly does, as Bukowski only hoped to take up where the 'Sun Also Rises'-era Hemingway left off. Bukowski's concern in Literature is very different from Burroughs, though he garners a good deal of well-earned respect, in his own right.) Also, with Burroughs' terms constantly finding their way into mainstream use ('heavy metal', 'interzone', etc.), it is hard to argue that he has not had much impact on the English language, and pop-culture in general. Therefore, Burroughs deserves the attention that all great writers deserve, which is to say, his work should be constantly reviewed in light of the ever-changing world of Literature.

Part 1: The Life of Riley

Naked Lunch is often the only book cited by writers commenting on William Burroughs' work. There are numerous reasons for this (the difficulty of the language in his later novels, for one), but only some of it has to do with the actual work itself. Naked Lunch, published in 1959, is inevitably tied to his life at the time he wrote the book, while living in Tangiers, but it is not a documentary account. It is a pastiche of events, some that he experienced and some that he only imagined in 'routines,' a style of acting out a story that he developed mostly to amuse himself during his days at Harvard, in the early 1930s. Exaggeration and irony are at the center of this method, which can be seen all the way through Naked Lunch. Unfortunately, the stories and myths surrounding the time of the novel's writing, and what could easily be called an outrageous life, overshadow his body of work, generally at a loss to his novels.

This is disappointing, as his life and Naked Lunch are not as intrinsically connected as many writers would have them be. They are clearly separate entities, as much as a writer and his work can ever be. If anything, Burroughs' education, curiosity and an early voracious appetite for knowledge (later in life he claimed to never read) are the real center of Naked Lunch, while the life he lived only colors the background, making the picture more distinct, and somewhat more sad.

William Burroughs has the same Literary curse as writers like Baudelaire, Rimbaud (two writers to whom he was repeatedly compared), Jean Genet or Hunter S. Thompson: his life and mythos often overshadow the importance of his work. For many, in fact, this is all they know of Burroughs. His work goes unread, but the stories of heroin addiction, shooting his wife, and trips to the Amazonian jungle in search hallucinogens are all the elements of the soap opera anyone needs. This is his true Naked Lunch, for many people. Having not read the novel, it seems that the tales of his tumultuous life are good enough. In my experience, most people assume his life's escapades are also what the book itself is about.

It's hard not to be attracted by the life, though. This mostly due to it being a great story in and of itself. His biography reads like a tragedy, though there have not been any really good biographies of Burroughs written at this point. In this case, the fact is often far stranger than the fiction. His biographies, however, suffer from a star-struck tone, highlighting not the work, but the events. Needless to say, the story of an aristocratic Midwesterner who chooses a life of crime and drugs is both Romantic and silly, in the end. I would not call Burroughs a Romantic, but he definitely started out that way (or, tired to), as his biographies tend to point out.

However, this is not the writer, but the man. Burroughs has both gained and lost due his mythos, attracting fans who are ultimately seeking justification for a particular lifestyle instead of appreciating a remarkable piece of work. Often, those who have read Naked Lunch see it as an answer, an almost Biblical response, to contrary views-points held by the typical American Conservative. If anything, there is always a somewhat Biblical tone beneath the surface of his novels, a notion that something greater than yourself is controlling your life. The only difference in Burroughs' case is that he constantly warns the reader to steer clear of this controlling element. For this reason, it is unlikely that he would prescribe any particular way of living for anyone, though many of his later novels had the image of rallying the troops. Naked Lunch certainly does not. Its purpose is to point out the problems, not solve them.

The book was often hailed as a voice for the Hippy generation (though it was its very antithesis), like Richard Brautigan's less refractory, but still somewhat difficult novels of the late 60s (Trout Fishing in America, In Watermelon Sugar, A Confederate General From Big Sur). This is surly due more to the inevitable connection Burroughs' had to the Beat writers than anything else. Though his place in that school of writing is questionable, it was easier to market him in this way, and as he could use the money it is unlikely that he would have cared about being linked to a group of writers he respected. So, where Brautigan actually was a Hippy, Burroughs was decidedly not.

He was not the ideal writer for the Hippy generation, but he was still strongly identified as someone doing something new in American Literature, pushing boundaries and changing minds; all qualities adored by the youth of the day. In his trademark fedora and gray suit, he was far from the vision of dharmic peace that Ginsberg had become, sitting in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco preaching to the masses while the Grateful Dead played in the background. Nor was he the lumberjack coat-wearing alcoholic Kerouac had become, who died at the height of the Hippy generation in 1969 after his star had begun to rapidly fade, though he might have been the most philosophically prominent driving force behind the ethics of the late 60s. If anything, Burroughs looked like a banker, showing himself to be the most subversive of the group since his personal politics fell far outside the circle of the average suit and tie wearing, responsible contributor to society.

This image of Burroughs alone should hint at the fact that he did not hold with very many of the ideals of the generation that first gave him fame. 'El hombre invisible,' as he was often called, hinted at his desire to almost disappear into the background, the safest place for a junkie to live. His Protestant-derived upbringing (his parents were not religious, but they were 'proper,' in the Midwestern American sense of the word) could not embrace completely the message of Peace and Love that the Hippies espoused. His novels of the late 60s and early 70s, when the Hippie ideal hit its peak and began to decline, are actually quite militant, in contrast to the tenor of the time. But, again, the stark homosexual elements of his work are also there, describing a world very different from the accepted norm, but placing him on the Left, where he felt more comfortable. (This is true for both the Hippies and the average public. He didn't fit into either category very well.)

Often, he is also mistakenly seen as the forefather of the Punk ethos (I'd prefer not to say Movement, as if it were some kind of organized affront on Conservative ethics) that would become popular in the 1970s, though any reasonable person can see that it was only a simple extension of the Hippies. How else can you explain self-righteous idealism and a clearly Romantic view that Art (read: music pared down to its roots) will liberate the soul? That is Punk in all its glory. The loud, message-heavy music, unusual clothing and a general disdain for outsiders was nothing if not the 60s turned on its head, the same idea made modern for the 70s. You could also probably make the case that the British (who really 'invented' punk) were never loopy enough to take the American version of what a Hippy was seriously, so they designed their own more wry, in-your-face version of it a few years later, at a time when the British economy was suffering and people looked outside of traditional ethics to find answers for their poverty (or, perhaps, pride in their poverty, since Punk and money do not suffer each other lightly).

Neither the Hippies nor the Punks could clearly identify with Burroughs, though. At least, not in a practical sense. Logic alone says that Punks and Hippies would not have been all that excited about guns, which Burroughs adored throughout his life. They seemed fine with heroin addiction, but not homosexuality (at least, for the most part; it's only in recent years that what we might call our counter-culture has become accepting of it, at least for the parts of the counter-culture that were not homosexual themselves to begin with).

And, while women were coming into their own in the 60s and 70s, making remarkable social gains in the workplace, politics and art, Burroughs' ardent anti-female stance seemed to be getting stronger and stronger, now that he had to actually deal with female fans that appreciated his work. Though he was becoming a little more conscious of needing to be politically correct in his responses to the constant accusations that he was a misogynist, his later novels are noticeably absent of females. Besides all of that, he had a serious fetish for teenage boys at the time he was writing most of his novels in the 60s and 70s. In later interviews, he even admits to paying young boys of 8 or 9 to perform sexual acts in front of him while he lived in Tangiers in the 50s. Though he is, in essence, a moral writer, he was clearly not an example of accepted morality.

So, why do so many feminists and counter-culture figures, from the time he wrote his books down to our own day, identify with Burroughs? He clearly lived in a world all his own. He had no use for most people, and the only people he really trusted were other gay writers; in other words, people just like him. What is it that has captured the imagination and attention of so many readers since Naked Lunch was published, especially when so little of the attention he received until lately has not been focused on his work, but on his life?

Burroughs's work clearly struck a chord with those generations of readers, despite obvious moral disconnects. I think his appeal has more to do with his refusal to be controlled than personal morality. The overall message of freedom and experimentation is highly attractive. Yet, Burroughs was very conservative and very xenophobic, which creates a complicated dichotomy of Liberal artistic liberation and Midwestern Protestant culture. In many ways, he was almost Libertarian. Certainly, he cared only to make his own rules for living.

It's hard not to think of Hunter S. Thompson and his own jangled version of life when one thinks of Burroughs, though they were two very different writers. His desire to push farther and farther to discover every dark place in the world seems to salve over most of his less social ideals for many readers. I think most readers just look past what they don't like, and point to the things they do. It's also important to remember the value of humor in all of this, as well, because Naked Lunch is a very funny book. Though I will elaborate on this later, it's important to see that many readers (myself included) can look beyond uncomfortable subjects if the writer is making us laugh.

But, there is no denying the less salable parts of his character, when you consider Burroughs. The easiest way to describe him, and the element that gives Naked Lunch its biting satire, is the uneasiness and divided nature of the writer. While he shoots heroin in a filthy room in Tangiers and writes the manuscript that will become Naked Lunch on equally filthy pieces of paper that are randomly spread out across his tiny room, he is both conflicted and guilty about his choice of lifestyle and, at the same time, exalted in what he is doing. Burroughs was very bothered by the lack of a relationship with his son but, ultimately, too selfish to do anything about it. He knew that his lifestyle was not a fit environment to raise a child in, yet he still wanted that relationship in the times when he wasn't addicted to heroin. As well, he felt very guilty his whole life about killing Joan, his wife, in a silly accident and then never serving any time for the murder. Though he rarely talked about it, when he did, it was always with great guilt. Even in his personal diaries, written at the end of his career, months before his death, the subject still comes up. This guilt drove much of the writing process, but did not always translate into biography. Often, his anger, which seems to have been vast, translated itself into almost unrelated satire about the hypocrisy of modern America and the control mechanisms of the society he lived in.

This battle within was what Ginsburg called Burroughs' 'Ugly Spirit.' They even attempted to have it driven out of him by a shaman when they were both very old, in a religious ceremony in the 1990s, by sitting for many hours in a sweat lodge. It seems to have worked, at least in their minds, but had it been driven out earlier in Burroughs' life, one has to wonder if Naked Lunch would even have been written. At the root of the book is a very angry, lonely and torn 'Ugly Spirit' that is both self-destructive and liberating. But, as the text itself often demonstrates, it is mostly confused, like a demon trying to escape but not wanting to at the same time.

[Note: This is the first in a group of short articles that will deal with a number of issues surrounding William Burroughs' career and, specifically, the novel Naked Lunch. I intend to look at the following: his celebrated life overpowering his work, Naked Lunch in particular; the innovative core of Naked Lunch as a document of critical social observation; traditionally un-literary language made Literary (the rhetoric of medicine, drug-use as a scientific experiment, pulp-novels made high-brow art, etc.); and, finally, the use of satire that is crucial to Naked Lunch, and often connected to all of his most unique approaches to language. Obviously, many of these issues will be tied to one another, so there will undoubtedly be some over-lapping.]

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The Sad, But Interesting Truth About Naked Lunch and William S. Burroughs | 193 comments (177 topical, 16 editorial, 0 hidden)
Imposter! (2.75 / 8) (#1)
by MichaelCrawford on Sun May 22, 2005 at 10:48:08 PM EST

The real Egil Skallagrimson would have cleaved Burroughs in two with his battle-axe!


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


Who's to say (3.00 / 6) (#2)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sun May 22, 2005 at 11:22:03 PM EST

that I haven't?  He's dead, isn't he?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Hm table of contents? +1 FP (3.00 / 2) (#8)
by shinnin on Mon May 23, 2005 at 04:54:07 AM EST

As I mentioned elsewhere, it might be good to systematically show where your series is going.

If you don't know where you are going with it, you can just invent other Parts - not that anyone will notice anyway. Use your box of cut-ups to generate good titles...

What surprised me most about Naked Lunch (3.00 / 3) (#10)
by nebbish on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:56:56 AM EST

Was how funny and accessible it was, providing of course you don't expect it to make any sense.

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee

The humour got old fast IMHO (none / 1) (#13)
by shinnin on Mon May 23, 2005 at 10:10:19 AM EST

All I really remember about Naked Lunch is baboons buggering clergymen (and I remember a whole lot more about other Burroughs works).

[ Parent ]
Maybe it's justme, but I'm (none / 1) (#14)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Mon May 23, 2005 at 10:25:04 AM EST

a good way into NL again for the nth time and it makes me laugh everytime.  Maybe that's the key to enjoying: Arrested Development (the condition, not the band).

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Maybe I should try it again (none / 1) (#15)
by shinnin on Mon May 23, 2005 at 10:38:10 AM EST

without all the expectation I had when I read it first many years ago, and without knowing much about Burroughs.

[ Parent ]
SEE???!!! SEEE??!?!! (none / 1) (#16)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Mon May 23, 2005 at 10:39:31 AM EST

My theory is correct.  Actually, it's just an observation.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Yes, but your theory is self-proving (none / 1) (#18)
by shinnin on Mon May 23, 2005 at 11:03:09 AM EST

at least in my case, because I've only been led to consider rereading NL because of your article.

That is called Marketing not Science!

[ Parent ]

I was never so hot in science... (none / 1) (#20)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Mon May 23, 2005 at 12:38:19 PM EST

I wonder how they hired me to be one?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

You are a science? (none / 1) (#51)
by shinnin on Tue May 24, 2005 at 04:18:40 AM EST

Well, I guess you are.

Same here.

[ Parent ]

I am science-guy, anyway. (none / 0) (#66)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:47:13 AM EST

Sort of.  All I do is read scientific articles and papers and correct the language and grammatical errors of the Asians I work with.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Am allegedly a "science-guy" too (none / 1) (#67)
by shinnin on Tue May 24, 2005 at 10:54:39 AM EST

All I do is write proposals for RTD projects and correct the language and grammatical errors of the Germans I work with ;> Oh, and Asians, too.

[ Parent ]
What would we do (none / 1) (#68)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 11:05:19 AM EST

without people who don't speak English correctly?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

It's actually quite pleasing (none / 1) (#73)
by shinnin on Tue May 24, 2005 at 12:37:05 PM EST

to be addressed with "Respected Sir".

[ Parent ]
Everyone just calss me (none / 1) (#75)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 01:10:16 PM EST

"Heydave"

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

You have employed the wrong Asians (3.00 / 2) (#77)
by shinnin on Tue May 24, 2005 at 01:37:00 PM EST

I suggest you try Indians.

But seriously, it's very awkward to deal with their overwrought respect and humility at times.

[ Parent ]

We employ soooo many Indians (none / 0) (#79)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 01:54:47 PM EST

but just not in my department.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Hur hur hur (2.66 / 3) (#17)
by nebbish on Mon May 23, 2005 at 10:51:09 AM EST

Made me laugh.

To be honest I can't remember anything in particular, but then it was a long time ago that I read it.

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee
[ Parent ]

Imagery depicting the sexual abuse of clergymen (none / 1) (#19)
by shinnin on Mon May 23, 2005 at 11:09:08 AM EST

are something that people engraved into town buildings 600 years ago here to demonstrate the rising significance of the secular over the clergy. Plus, I have no christian sensitivities at all. So, neither the joke nor the scandal really worked on me.

[ Parent ]
one thing i never understood (1.85 / 14) (#22)
by circletimessquare on Mon May 23, 2005 at 03:12:39 PM EST

why is drug culture so interesting to those in the culture of creativity?

drug culture is retarded

the culture of creativity is not

why does one culture find the other culture to be so interesting, when the truth is that one culture destroys the other?

drugs don't heighten creativity, they stifle it

they don't increase the creative juices, what drugs do instead is lower the mental judgment of quality

in other words, on psilocybin you might write a poem that feels to you as the word of God himself has been channeled through you

but when you sober up, and remember that you created a poem whose words were the deepest level of insight into the nature of the universe and life itself, you turn to your genius-level work, you find it, you pick it up, heart racing, to see what the drugs helped you channel, and all you see of your exquisite poem is:

"ants ate my dinner"

repeat, there are two ways to feel quality in artistic creation:

create high quality art
lower your perception of quality to the level of mediocre through the use of drugs
so perhaps the creative culture feels the need to create high quality art all of the time, which is EXTREMELY hard, so they turn to the false promise of drugs in their desperation to create something which impresses themselves
conclusion: artists are too hard on themselves, and drive themselves to areas of culture which only destroy their abilities

artists need to give themselves some credit

higher quality art through mental jujitsu and insight, not drugs

drugs are retarded

not at some nancy reagan knee jerk "just say no" level

no, drugs are retarded in the most intimate of understandings of your creative process

to turn to drugs is to committ artistic suicide because you can't bear the pain of your own high standards of judgment on what you create

a lot of times it feels better to kill the artistic need than to create something you are disgusted with

and drugs are perfect for that

but never confuse drugs with something that will actually heighten your creativity

complete red herring rubbish

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Definition of drugs... (3.00 / 2) (#24)
by ljazbec on Mon May 23, 2005 at 04:40:53 PM EST

What about alcohol? Plenty of famous, acknowledged writers were alcoholics.

[ Parent ]
in EXACTLY the way i describe them above (nt) (2.66 / 3) (#26)
by circletimessquare on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:07:40 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Your words and reality do not mesh (2.71 / 7) (#25)
by Zara2 on Mon May 23, 2005 at 05:14:27 PM EST

Creativity of art and drugs of one sort or another seem to be so intermingled and intermarried that there is no way to separate them. Just about every major new musical artist, starting with the vipers, from the Beatles and Elvis, through the Doors, Dead and Led Zep, onto the beginnings of rap and the hey-day of hair metal and into the varied explosion of musical styles available today has had drugs involved in its very fiber and culture. Literary geniuses such as Twain and Poe loved absinthe and opium (respectfully) and regarded it as part of their font of creativity. Painters and photographers have a long history of being drunkards or opium addicts. The only creative endeavor that I know of that is not heavily influenced by drugs would be some of the hard core sciences. Even lighter engineering such as software (especially games) has a very heavy drug component to its culture. Now, I'm not going to argue that drug use won't fuck up your creativity and other mental functions if used in too much abundance or over too long of a period of time. However, creativity is very much influenced by drug use. Maybe the creative mind needs a crutch to take reality. Maybe the mind altering substances "stretch" the brain. I just don't know. But, to deny that there is a very strong connection between what we call creativity, especially creativity that effects our culture (art) is just asinine and ignoring all of the wonderful artists that made some of the most beautiful things that the world has ever seen while they were reeeeaaaallllly high on drugs.

[ Parent ]
contemporarity is not causation (2.75 / 4) (#27)
by circletimessquare on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:11:40 PM EST

if i notice all artists ride bicycles, am i to conclude bicycles lead to increased creativity?

the contemporarity of drugs and creative people i explain above: the need to deaden high standards because of the pain that causes compared with what you create

no artist creates high quality stuff all the time

and if you have a passion for what you create, when you create shit, that hurts

and you deaden that pain with drugs

but the drugs don't heighten your creativity

they deaden your ability to feel bad about yourself when you create shit

thus: the existence of a lot of drugs among creative people

when the truth is that drugs destroy the actual mental process of creativity


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Contemporarity? (2.50 / 4) (#29)
by D Jade on Mon May 23, 2005 at 08:32:15 PM EST

What age are you going back to to set precedent that this "drug-taking" artist is a new being?

Leonardo: Fag and trash head.

Beethoven: Womaniser and drunkard, not to mention countless other composers who are now revered as creative geniuses.

Jesus: This guy created Christianity and is famed for turning water into wine. In case you forgot, wine contains alcohol, alcohol is a drug.

Then you've got a heap of writers from the 18th and 19th century.

You've also got the shaman/nagual/whatever their respective cultures refer to them as. These people use drugs as part of their spiritual rituals to CREATE the reality of their beliefs, and guess what; they've been doing this for thousands of years.

The egyptians loved getting off their head and they were arguably one of the most creative civilisations of the ancient world. Oh and don't forget the Mayans who have created some of the most complex maths known to the world. Oops, and the Aztecs as well.

In fact, I could go on and on and on about people and cultures from the past who were on drugs. But there's no need because humanity speaks for itself, and whether or not you do drugs, you have to accept that drug use is rooted in the human psyche.

There's nothing you can do about it CTS. You think drugs are retarded, yet you drink coffee, making you a hypocrite.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

What's a trash head? [nt] (none / 1) (#30)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Mon May 23, 2005 at 08:35:54 PM EST


----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Someone (none / 1) (#36)
by D Jade on Mon May 23, 2005 at 11:42:21 PM EST

Who uses drugs... Any kind of drugs...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
you can tap keys, but you can't think (2.66 / 3) (#32)
by circletimessquare on Mon May 23, 2005 at 09:12:38 PM EST

read my passage again, try to UNDERSTAND what i am saying

them before you go off and shoot off your fascinating list of drug taking artists, take some time to THINK first and realize that i am NOT SAYING ARTISTS DON'T TAKE DRUGS and therefore your wonderful list DOESN'T MEANSHIT ABOUT WHAT AM I SAYING

take a deep breath, concentrate real hard

i have hope in you, i believe that listening and communicating, as opposed to blind stereotyping according to one dimensional bogeymen that only exist in your head, IS within your grasp

you can do it!

go, special person, go!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

But CTS, (2.50 / 2) (#35)
by D Jade on Mon May 23, 2005 at 11:41:57 PM EST

You're the one stereotyping. You say that drugs stifle creativity. I was merely listing many drug takers who have created great works of music and art and literature. This does not take away from your belief that drugs stifle YOUR creativity but it proves that people can still be creative while under the influence of drugs.

My pretty list has everything to do with it because you stated that drugs stifle this creativity. However, all of these drug takers are hailed as creative geniuses. Well guess what? The fact that they are called such completely debunks your theory that it stifles creativity and also your supposition that drug use amongst creative minds is only a contemporary occurence.

If you are not trying to tell me that drugs stifle creativity and that the drug culture is only a contemporary occurence, then please clarify what you are saying. But from your comments it appears this is your belief and my comments illustrate that you are wrong.

P.S. Why do you always have to be such a whiney bitch CTS? You're a semi-intelligent person but your whiney little attitude is worse than a prison bitch bro...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

clarification (2.50 / 2) (#40)
by circletimessquare on Tue May 24, 2005 at 12:31:22 AM EST

clarification here, in a thread with someone who isn't as blind and prejudiced as you

as for me being a whiny bitch, i was certain you already knew everything about me already, right?

you act like you do, so why would you bother asking me?

i mean all the bullshit you've written so far has been written from the position that i'm nancy reagan

the fact that if you took the time to read my fucking words first and stopped being such a prejudiced cretin then you might actually talk to someone rather than be the BITCH you are

you are a blind blowhard fuck if i ever met one

i sound like a whiny bitch to you because in your mind, that is all you can hear. whining and bitching. that's what real communication sounds like to you. you're so ossified and stereotyping that the only thing that makes sense to you by now is all of the one dimensional hollywood characters in your head that you straightjakcet people into.

when someone doesn't turn out to be according to how your prejudiced way of thinking pigeoholes them, you hear whining and bitching. because your mind is closed shut

retune your beautiful music producer's ears, get out the wax, get a hearing aid, you can't seem to be able to hear anything new.

fucking blind empty fool

in the real world, in prison, you'd be the one sucking my dick long before i'd be sucking yours

with my ability to handle reality better than you, i'd last longer than you, and higher up the food chain

bro


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

But clearly reality is out of your grasp (2.75 / 4) (#41)
by D Jade on Tue May 24, 2005 at 01:43:41 AM EST

As per usual CTS you don't even know what you are talking about. You change your position every five seconds.

Firstly, the only mention of Nancy Reagan in this conversation has been from your fingers. I don't give a shit about Nancy Reagan or her policies. I understand that she was pretty intolerant of drugs. However, I've never stated that you are intolerant of drugs.

Secondly, you accuse me of pigeonholing. Once again, the only pigeonholing being done here is on your part. You say that I have pigeonholed you into a certain category to some extent this is true. I have categorised your behaviours yes, which I have been observing in you for years. You come accross as an anti-social creature who isn't able to have a rational discussion and can't handle views in opposition to your own. Your statements here also clearly demonstrate that you have filed me into one of these pigeonholes you accuse me of using.

Thirdly, you call me narrow-minded. Yet the only narrow mind I see here right now is your's. I'm not making this statement based on what you've said just now. I'm basing this statement on the plethora of statements that I've read under your moniker. You always have to resort to cheap insults the moment someone says something in opposition to your views, instead of trying to convince them to your way of thinking. Your arguments are also consistently weak because of the fact that you can never back them up with anything other than said insults.

Fourthly, you say that I haven't read your comments. Well I have. Twice in fact. The first time I read to see what you said. Then I have to re-read what you said to because I can't actually believe some of the crap you come up with. It is you that doesn't read what you have written. You really should edit your comments before posting. I'd also recommend referring to them when making new comments to ensure they are not contradicting the next crapflood you intend to compose.

And then lastly, you say that I only accuse you of being a whiney bitch because I don't agree with you. You call cheap insults real communication. CTS, real communication consists of well constructed arguments backed up with facts. Real communication involves listening to the other party and considering the points they have made and then responding, either in agreeance or with rebuttal, depending on your view. Unfortunately, you've demonstrated that you're incapable of this.

No, instead, you accuse me of having your own flaws and once again demonstrate your Nancy Reagan, narrow-minded, pigeon-holing, unedited and whiney inadequacies which causes you to harbor a deep resentment towards anyone who doesn't agree with your fetid points of view (or lack thereof).

And on prison bitches: if you were in prison you would be shieved the moment the guards were out of site. Why? Because you just don't know when to shutup. I would definitely retain my ass virginity far longer than you purely because I am able t accept people who are different from the cookie cut-out, pigeon-holed stereotypes you see the world in.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

aw, are you getting upset? (1.66 / 3) (#43)
by circletimessquare on Tue May 24, 2005 at 01:58:33 AM EST

calm down now, i'm sorry i rattled your neat little world where everything made sense

thinking instead of prejudicing... it's hard at first, i hear you

now shhh, that's ok, you don't have to pay me any mind, i'm just an internet troll, remember?

an internet troll, who, judging by your sweaty palm retraction laced post, apparently has your number

now bend over bitch


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

The only retractor is you (2.50 / 2) (#45)
by D Jade on Tue May 24, 2005 at 02:24:37 AM EST

My dear friend. You're the one who has back-peddled on your statements this whole time. I still stand by my position that I do not agree with you that drugs are retarded and that they stifle creativity. Now, pray tell, what is your position? Because clearly you don't agree with your initial statement.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
reading comprehension (1.00 / 3) (#49)
by circletimessquare on Tue May 24, 2005 at 03:17:48 AM EST

not one of your stronger points


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Are you still here? (none / 0) (#89)
by D Jade on Tue May 24, 2005 at 11:14:21 PM EST

Stop talking to yourself. We've established you can't comprehend anything that you say, let alone what I or anyone else says. I know you must get annoyed because you are constantly misunderstood. But bro, you never will have understanding until you are able to actually maintain a point of view. As it stands, you can't and don't.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
I understand what he says (none / 1) (#166)
by An onymous Coward on Fri May 27, 2005 at 09:55:24 AM EST

So maybe it's just you with the comprehension problem

"Your voice is irrelevant. Stop embarrassing yourself. Please." -stuaart
[ Parent ]
Please understand: (none / 0) (#93)
by Harvey Anderson on Wed May 25, 2005 at 10:32:22 AM EST

he is from New York, and as such, broken.

[ Parent ]
Not to disrespect the shamans... (none / 0) (#101)
by Danzig on Wed May 25, 2005 at 12:27:33 PM EST

but if you (the general you) are a white middle-class American, you are not a shaman, you are trying to justify your drug use. Your use which is recreational, no matter how much you pretend otherwise to yourself and others. Especially if the prefix "urban" comes before shaman.

The fact that you learned something from most of your trips means shit. I learned lots, because I neither sought nor fought the lessons. The fact that you did not enjoy your trips means you suck at drugs. And by enjoy I mean enjoy at a non-negligible level for an appreciable period of time. Saying you learned valuable lessons after the fact, even if true, does not qualify. That just means you are not entirely stupid. Not that I have never experienced emotional pain/stress on psychedelics. I did, once... but I was still enjoying the trip at the very moment tears fell down my cheeks.

The only valid expectation of any and all psychedelic experiences is as a movie. Pretty pictures and nice story. If you learn something useful, good for you, but while The Fisher King can teach people something The Matrix cannot. Both tell a decent story, but only the one has anything applicable to outside experiences, and then only if the lesson is not already known, and the viewer smart and willing enough to learn.

You are not a fucking Fight Club quotation.
rmg for editor!
If you disagree, moderate, don't post.
Kill whitey.
[ Parent ]
So drugs cause people to rant... (2.00 / 4) (#28)
by D Jade on Mon May 23, 2005 at 08:23:16 PM EST

... Like you just have. This is the most innane piece of crap CTS. I know your opinion on drugs and so I'm not going to argue with you on that point. What pisses me off is that you think that you know best when you're far more retarded than the drugs you talk about...

Drugs allow people to see what was not there before, it's that simple. Throughout history, drugs have been at the center of creation. You miss the point because for you, drugs have the same effect as being catatonic. You just don't get them.

Drugs make people do and say things they wouldn't normally if they were inhibited. They also lead to experiences they wouldn't have if they lead a sober life. Not only that, drugs take away the pain for those poor bastards living in shitty housing, working minimum wage with four kids.

Drugs are the root of creativity because the humanity is rooted in a desire to get out of its head; To go back to the primal senses we used to have, when paying the bills wasn't an issue and the biggest concern we'd ever have was what to fuck/eat next.

That's the reality CTS. Whether you like it or not, you'll be out-voted 99:1 on this issue. Because 99% of people enjoy drugs, whether caffiene, alcohol, weed or the good stuff.

If you think drugs are retarded, stop drinking coffee and stop taking those pills the doctor gave you for your fits... then see how retarded drugs are.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (2.50 / 2) (#31)
by circletimessquare on Mon May 23, 2005 at 08:46:56 PM EST

do you know me?

i'm pro-marijuana legalization

i've been on some deep trips on psilocybin

now that you know some facts about me, do you want to talk to me? or do you want to talk to the one dimensional stereotype you've prejudged me as?

dude, it's ok you've got limitations on your mental faculties, and so you have to imprint on real complex people simple blind prejudiced labels. but don't think that your insulting bullshit is a replacement for valid thought. it might work for you in your dull limited mind, but it doesn't work here, unless your point is to insult me for no reason, then in which case, bravo!

the difference between you and i is i KNOW WHAT DRUGS REALLY DO TO ME

BIOCHEMICALLY

not in your bullshit romanticization that follows no logic

it shows you to be limited in your imagination

not a very creative or artistic person now are you?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Please stop, (2.80 / 5) (#33)
by vera on Mon May 23, 2005 at 10:42:10 PM EST

your meth addiction is showing.

[ Parent ]
My comments on your person... (none / 1) (#37)
by D Jade on Mon May 23, 2005 at 11:51:53 PM EST

Are based on years worth of your crappy commentary on this website bro. Now, despite your own self-perception, you are a one dimensional person CTS. You always have been and you always will. This is not the first time we've had a discussion where you've had to revert to cheap insults to muddy the issues which you always express so poorly.

The point that you know what drugs do to you biochemically is moot when talking about creativity. Artists don't take drugs because of they "really to them" but because of the affect they have on the artists' perception.

See, this is why you wouldn't understand though CTS because you're clearly not a creative person. Creativity has nothing to do with logic. Or more, it has everything to do with logic in that the artist seeks to escape it or warp it to their own creative needs. ARTISTS DON'T GIVE A FUCK IF THAT E THEY HAD LAST NIGHT DRIES OUT THEIR SPINAL FLUID!!!

See, you're a hypocrite. You don't know me from a bar of soap because in all your innane rantings over the years, you never even realise who you are talking to and you're telling me off for making judgements based on one single comment. How clear it is that you, the pathetic CTS, are basically calling me your inaddequacies.

If you knew anything about me, you would know that I produce my own music, have a few records released and run a record label bro. But then, you don't even know who I am.

Stop being such a sucky fucking prison bitch CTS and grow some balls.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

aw, don't get so upset there D Piddy (1.50 / 2) (#39)
by circletimessquare on Tue May 24, 2005 at 12:16:52 AM EST

if you reread my fucking words, you will realize that, shock and horror, ARTISTS DON'T GIVE A FUCK IF THAT E THEY HAD LAST NIGHT DRIES OUT THEIR SPINAL FLUID!!! is something i understand quite well ;-P

*sigh*

how exactly do you deal with special ed cases who don't know how to communicate?

not that i have any hope of convincing you at this point to talk to ME rather than the bogeyman in your head, but if i could, i would somehow reach in your brain and have you turn to your left 90 degrees

and you can start talking to ME instead of nancy reagan, the bogey man in your head you seem to think i bear a resemblence too

than maybe we can discuss this bullshit

you need to demonstrate an ability to COMMUNICATE with someone, READ THERE WORDS, THINK, rather than imprint your paranoid schizophrenic fantasies upon them, and go with that

but, until then, you're just a retarded blowhard

now go wander the street and stab some poor dude because when you squinted in the sun you thought you saw dan quayle

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

stupid fucktard ;-)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You're the only one who's upset. (none / 1) (#42)
by D Jade on Tue May 24, 2005 at 01:57:07 AM EST

I have no idea why you keep referring to Nancy Reagan bro. I've never called you Nancy Reagan. Maybe Nancy Boy Prison Bitch, but never Nancy Regan.

how exactly do you deal with special ed cases who don't know how to communicate?

I'm really not sure CTS, how did they deal with you at the special school?

and you can start talking to ME.....

I was talking to you CTS and you had a fucking conniption fit because I don't agree with your assertion that all drug use stifles creativity and that using drugs is retarded. That was your initial statement and now you're backing out of it and saying that's not what you meant, as you typically always do when you make an argument. You don't even know what you say half the time. I would love to call you a troll, but you can't even troll well, which says a lot.

you need to demonstrate an ability to COMMUNICATE with someone, READ THERE WORDS, THINK, rather than imprint your paranoid schizophrenic fantasies upon them, and go with that

See, once again, you're talking to yourself. I don't need to hear the advice you give yourself. I really don't want to know about the inner conflict that drives you. I really don't care. You have nothing to add to your argument and you haven't once actually responded to my initial argument. All you are capable of is insults. It's really quite sad and I hope you don't interact with people like this in the real world. But if you do, I would imagine you are very lonely and for that, you have my sympathy.

Now you want me to stab someone? I'm sorry, but that's just not in my nature. I don't believe violence solves anything. Unlike you, I don't use violence in my arguments mate.

I hope that one day you find some peace and quiet in that twisted little box you call CTS...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

very interesting (none / 1) (#44)
by circletimessquare on Tue May 24, 2005 at 02:01:32 AM EST

i'm so upset

and you're the one busy walking backwards

;-)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Are you really so illiterate? (none / 1) (#46)
by D Jade on Tue May 24, 2005 at 02:54:52 AM EST

Or is that just your way of being cute? It's clear that you can't interpret the english language bro. It's clear you don't even know what your opinion is. You think you do, but you don't have any understanding of what you've already said. If you did, you'd actually be able to back up your initial statements. As it stands, you can't and you haven't.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
snore... (none / 1) (#50)
by circletimessquare on Tue May 24, 2005 at 03:28:24 AM EST

dude, i like feel, like, so cowed

truly your deflection of my questioning your reading comprehension abilities by questioning my reading comprehension is of such rhetorical flair that i have not felt this humbled since kindergarten

mainly because the last time i heard "i know you are but what am i" IS kindergarten

bro

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ;-)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I'm not questioning your comprehension (none / 0) (#90)
by D Jade on Tue May 24, 2005 at 11:18:34 PM EST

I don't need to, it's clear you have none. There's no question.

mainly because the last time i heard "i know you are but what am i" IS kindergarten

The last time I heard this statement is just now when you have repeatedly been saying this because you can't support your own point of view. So judging by your statement above, you either teach in a kindergarten, or still go to one... Isn't there some medication you should be taking for that?

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

Oh, pro-pot. Want a fucking medal? (none / 1) (#99)
by Danzig on Wed May 25, 2005 at 12:06:34 PM EST

Yeah, pot and alcohol, both of which have negative effects upon the user's mental processes are fine. Even though at least alcohol's is permanent. And alcohol has physical withdrawals that can kill the user, unlike heroin. But heroin and cocaine are bad, because the users of those actually stand a reasonable chance of being functional at even the highest levels of responsibility and demands. But Danzig those can destroy your soul... which of course is why psychedelics are peachy keen.

I know what drugs really do to me biochemically as well. Unlike you, I actually understand what the hell that means when translated to occasional, moderate, and daily use in the real world. And of course I am a moral being, and you are not.

Unleash the line breaks, motherfucker.

You are not a fucking Fight Club quotation.
rmg for editor!
If you disagree, moderate, don't post.
Kill whitey.
[ Parent ]
Drug use is its own reward. (3.00 / 2) (#98)
by Danzig on Wed May 25, 2005 at 11:59:51 AM EST

Therefore it is its own justification as well.

You are not a fucking Fight Club quotation.
rmg for editor!
If you disagree, moderate, don't post.
Kill whitey.
[ Parent ]
I Misagree (2.83 / 6) (#34)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Mon May 23, 2005 at 10:58:32 PM EST

I don't disagree with what you've said exactly, but it does only deal with one particular kind of drug-art interaction.

I agree that art made under the influence of narcotics has as much chance of success as drunk calligraphy. No argument there.

But what would say about a poet who had never been drunk? Not even once? Or a folksinger who had never smoked grass? These acts don't contribute to the creation of art but they can (in reasonable moderation, naturally) contribute to the richness of experience an artist can draw upon.

Any substance (magic mushrooms, lysergic acid) or experience (sweat lodge, self-hypnosis) that drastically alters perception is interesting to anyone working in the medium of perception. It isn't a requirement, but it's not a disqualifier, either.


_____
I am from a small, unknown country in the north called Ca-na-da. We are a simple, grease-loving people who enjoy le weeke
[
Parent ]
well said (3.00 / 2) (#38)
by circletimessquare on Mon May 23, 2005 at 11:56:08 PM EST

i have no argument whatsoever

art is about distilling and communicating extremes of emotion, physical exhaustion, war, disassociation, etc.

and anything that takes you to the edge is an aid

however, this is a very idealized use for drugs you mention

meanwhile, drugs have many uses

for the majority of people, and for the majority of times an artist uses drugs, drugs are used for what drugs are always used for: BLOTTING OUT existence, BLOTTING OUT pain

pain and existence that would have gone into making art otherwise

not that there is anything wrong with this blotting out, but to romanticize drugs as some sort of red/ blue pill from the matrix is just bullshit

did hemingway drink to write better?

hardly, the manic depressive suidical fuck drank to relieve his pain, then one day he blew his brains out anyway, same with hunter thompson

their drug use, and their writing, were both effects of who they were: artistic souls

THE POINT BEING THE DRUGS DID NOT MAKE HIS SOUL ANY MORE ARTISTIC

in fact, probably less so

it's how you view the function of art in personal psychology

people who are true artists don't make art to make money or get famous or get laid (well, maybe get laid), but to deal with pain

drugs are another way to deal with pain

so in fact drugs MOST OF THE TIME are another crutch an artist uses INSTEAD OF CREATING ART to deal with their pain

not that you could have taken alcohol away from hemingway and he would have written 10 more great books, but nor could you say that if you gave hemingway more whiskey he would have written 10 more great books

hemingway was hemingway, end of story. alcohol and writing. the drug use in my view is a COSYMPTOM of art creation of the soul in pain. one has nothing to do with the other. and you certainly can't write very well drunk.

so i see drug use by the artist more as a co-symptom of going to the extremes of the mind that art requires, it doesn't help you on the trip, it doesn't make the trip easier, it doesn't make the trip better, it doesn't help you communicate the trip better. it helps relieve the pain of the trip that you would have taken anyway, and it helps you deal with it, another way, than creating art

for 99% of it's use, by 99% of people, and in 99% of cases even by artists, drugs are what drugs are for stupid frat boys on friday night at the pub: something to wack your mind with and blot it all out

a truly artistic soul is a soul in pain

they learn to communicate it to make it less painful

and they learn to blot it out to make it less painful

sot he prevalance of drug use in the artisitic community is a cosymptom of artisticness

it doesn't help their art

it doesn't hinder it

and all the fucktards who think they are going to get stoned and become jimi hendrix are just dumb stoners

jimi hendrix was jimi hendrix

he worte great music

and he got stoned

and even he would laugh at the suggestion that getting stoned made him write better music

wiritng music and getting stoned was just about who he was, and ne'er the twain shall meet


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Art is not pretending to be fucked up (3.00 / 2) (#53)
by shinnin on Tue May 24, 2005 at 05:28:22 AM EST

Although I don't fully agree that

art is about distilling and communicating extremes of emotion

as there are certainly examples of art not communicating extremes, but that point is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion. In our culture, art is a strategy for giving form to one's subjective perception of the human experience, of which a significant part is existential pain (or whatever you want to call it), and taking drugs is a strategy for making the human experience less painful. It's obvious the two will often be adopted by the same person. In any case, conflict with the human experience exists a priori as the motivating factor for both strategies. Artists are those persons with the will to give that experience form and skill to do so.

I'd further argue that the use of drugs as a means of accessing altered perceptions as CBB was saying also point to the same desire for escape from the "pain" of reality as getting drunk . The choice of the theme of the art being perceptual escapism, which again points to conflict of the soul - the human experience.

One artist in recent history for whom both the idealised use of drugs as a means of perceptual exploration and to "blot out the pain" as CTS is saying: John Balance, artist, medium of perception - known to use hallucogenics; couldn't pay his bills anymore - couldn't stand the pain - got drunk after several years of being sober, fell off of his balcony, smashed his head in. Dead. No more words from John.

It is a common thing for young wanna-be bohemians to adopt the romaticised drug-abusing image of the "artist" to associate with that creativity - quite similar to wearing Nikes to associate with the image of athleticism. After all, in their perception, artists get laid, get paid and have a good chance of going down in history - and that for just hanging around talking shit and writing a few incomprehensible words or painting something a kid could. "That's easy", they think, "I could do that". Actually, most so-called "artists" you are likely to meet are that kind of person. Some are very aware they are fakes (maybe that makes them artists?). Some are very good at upholding that image. Some even succeed at fooling art-culture and become famous. It still doesn't make them artists. Being fucked-up, or even worse pretending to be fucked-up doesn't make you an artist.

[ Parent ]

Good point on the young artist (3.00 / 2) (#62)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:33:48 AM EST

thing.  They do seem to adopt the image before the actual talent kicks in, if my experience at an art-heavy high school over a decade ago is anything to believe.

For me, reading alters perception and challenges ideas as much as any drug experience.  For instance, I cannot write for the life of me if I am drinking.  I try, but it always gets boring and then I give up and watch TV or go to sleep.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

The artist as a young fake (none / 0) (#72)
by shinnin on Tue May 24, 2005 at 12:35:26 PM EST

They do seem to adopt the image before the actual talent kicks in

If it ever kicks in at all.

if my experience at an art-heavy high school over a decade ago is anything to believe

Most self-styled "artists" of the kind I described have a tendency to extend their puberty well into their 40s. I lived together with a bunch of them for quite a long time when I was quite involved with the local scene - and subsequently rather jaded with respect to so-called artists.

For me, reading alters perception and challenges ideas as much as any drug experience.

This, of course, has as a prerequisite the ability to read properly. The actual quality of the alteration of perception is probably different, but I know what you are talking about.

Major sober mind-altering experience - listening to some of Keiji Haino's (who himself is a tea-totaller) more intense works in their entirety.

For instance, I cannot write for the life of me if I am drinking. I try, but it always gets boring and then I give up and watch TV or go to sleep.

Anecdote time: back when I was a wild young man, I was the singer of a presumptuous band. In our early career, we usually played gigs pretty drunk or in less legal states of mind. Everyone said we were great, so avantgarde. That is, until we listened to a tape of a gig when we were sober. We realised we were not avantgarde, we were just fucking useless. From then on, we played sober - and were a lot better.

[ Parent ]

Yeah, it's taken me (3.00 / 3) (#76)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 01:29:05 PM EST

into my 30's to figure that out.  Now, I actually do work that I am proud of.  I only drink after the day is over.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Congratulations (3.00 / 3) (#78)
by shinnin on Tue May 24, 2005 at 01:37:37 PM EST

I hear you. Growing up is such a bore.

[ Parent ]
I like being a responsible, grown up cannibis user (3.00 / 2) (#111)
by LadyChatnoire on Thu May 26, 2005 at 02:25:32 AM EST

Not pothead: cannibis user. I take a little marijuana in the evening. I take it in my pajamas, with a cup of chamomile on my bedside table. I take it during the late-night classical music radio show, with my journal open on my lap.
I write in my journal after taking my marijuana, but only for a minute or two because I know that apres-j is not the time to do good writing. It is the time, however, to briefly assess what's on the mind, because the altered state of consiousness often allows me to go past certain mind-blockers and find creative solutions to things. The next day- unstoned- that's the time to assess the solutions, see if they're sound, and if so, put them in place.


[ Parent ]
That is perfectly acceptable to me (none / 0) (#116)
by shinnin on Thu May 26, 2005 at 04:19:09 AM EST

and it also sounds very cosy, but I find it far more satisfying to achieve that kind of a state without external aids.

I used to be what you call a "responsible, grown up cannibis user" but it ended up being less and less regular, until it was once a year. The last time was so incredibly boring - conciously observing my thoughts performing neat tricks - that I decided there was no point in doing it anymore. For me, it's better not to think at all than watch monkeys play.

[ Parent ]

You're totally right about reading. (none / 0) (#94)
by Danzig on Wed May 25, 2005 at 11:20:01 AM EST

Ever tried to drive while reading a book you just bought? It makes driving under the influence look not only easy, but safe.

You might try writing on amphetamines or cocaine. Hit and miss for me, but when they hit they hit hard. I mean, not that you should do amphetamine or cocaine, because drugs are bad.

You are not a fucking Fight Club quotation.
rmg for editor!
If you disagree, moderate, don't post.
Kill whitey.
[ Parent ]
Dude, they did make his soul more artistic. (none / 1) (#97)
by Danzig on Wed May 25, 2005 at 11:56:57 AM EST

Take the alcohol out of Hemingway's works and they lose something. Although I do agree with you about people who think pot made Hendrix.

But at a more fundamental level, there is much more to drug use than blotting out pain. The only ones that come close to doing that are narcotics, and even they will make the happiest motherfucker alive happier. Blotting out pain is at best an imperfect generalization of their effects... because for both physical and mental/emotional pain, the pain (and/or its cause) is still there. All opium, morphine, or heroin do is make it so that you don't give a shit. You don't forget. You just don't care either. But even the healthiest person will get something from it, something more than mere pain relief.

Other drugs "blot out pain" even less. Dissociatives can make it so that you don't notice physical pain. Alcohol, barbiturates, and to a far lesser extent benzos will numb physical pain. For mental pain, benzos numb that better than alcohol, which as often as not makes it worse, but if you stay awake your problems ain't going anywhere and if you fall asleep they will be with you as the sun rises. Psychedelics and MDMA may well help you figure out the source of your issues, but the roll may not be pleasant and the trip isn't even likely to be so in that situation. Stimulants might make your problems seem insignificant, but you will pay for it on the comedown, and for that purpose the price is not worth it.

You are not a fucking Fight Club quotation.
rmg for editor!
If you disagree, moderate, don't post.
Kill whitey.
[ Parent ]
LSD made Hendrix (none / 0) (#105)
by tonedevil on Wed May 25, 2005 at 05:22:28 PM EST

Pot was only the gateway drug, get it straight.

[ Parent ]
I suppose. (none / 1) (#113)
by Danzig on Thu May 26, 2005 at 03:15:48 AM EST

That being said, while I respect Hendrix as a guitar player, I hate every song he ever wrote. I always thought this, but once I was younger. I told my father the same, with the exception of All Along the Watchtower. It was then I learned the actual author of the song.

You are not a fucking Fight Club quotation.
rmg for editor!
If you disagree, moderate, don't post.
Kill whitey.
[ Parent ]
I'm a fan (none / 0) (#117)
by tonedevil on Thu May 26, 2005 at 04:43:23 AM EST

I like it all, the psychadelic mod style of the Experience to the Band of Gypsys. I do know who wrote "All Along the Watchtower" in fact about the third album I bought was John Wesley Harding. I still like Hendrix version better, I've heard stories that Dylan does as well.

[ Parent ]
I always though Dylan wrote (none / 0) (#122)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 09:58:14 AM EST

that song.  See this article was for some good....

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Write draft when drunk (none / 0) (#154)
by crustacean on Thu May 26, 2005 at 04:37:44 PM EST

edit while sober.
Will take to the forest before the oil overlords annex Canada.
[ Parent ]
Good point about altered perception (none / 0) (#61)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:30:58 AM EST

rather than specifically taking drugs.  Sweat-lodges and the whole bit.  I bet they make you see all kinds of nutty shite....

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Narcotics? Excuse me? (none / 0) (#96)
by Danzig on Wed May 25, 2005 at 11:36:29 AM EST

What about Coleridge? de Quincey? Poe? Irvine Welsh? Burroughs? Or are you saying you think he sucks? Those are just literary references off the top of my head. Narcotics are as valuable and worthy a drug and experience as psychedelics. Personally, I like works influenced by such better than those influenced by traditional psychedelics. Narcotic users tend to be more honest with themselves and less arrogant than "urban shamans" and the like.

You are not a fucking Fight Club quotation.
rmg for editor!
If you disagree, moderate, don't post.
Kill whitey.
[ Parent ]
I guess all I can say is this: (none / 1) (#60)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:29:18 AM EST

though Burroughs would probably mostly agree with you (as told in numerous interviews), there would have been no Naked Lunch without the depravation caused by addiction.

Perhaps that creativity by way of sel-imposed suffering.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

drugs cause irreversible damage (none / 1) (#109)
by Synaptic Line Noise on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:58:35 AM EST

So true.

The one time I took a downer, I felt like my
Attention Deficit Disorder
was gone for a time.

It was as if my brain was finally slowed enough that I could
think shockingly deep thoughts, it allowed me to focus on
a single thought and think about just that singular idea, which
normally it is very hard for someone with ADD to do.

I arrived at ideas I never concluded before.
So in a way it improved things temporarily, but let's face the facts.
Doing drugs repeatedly eventually kills your brain, so much
so that no matter how much you take, those original feelings
never come back to you, and other parts of your brain are unable to
learn and "take over" for those damaged parts because the damage
is so totally devastating.

Well someone may think that they can lose a few brain cells, no biggie.
No matter how intelligent a person believes himself to be, just
remember that the few brain cells you lose might be the most valuable
ones.

Search the 'net for what George Martin, the Beatles producer, thinks
about artists doing drugs, and how it affects them for further proof, his comments that were seen in the Beatles Anthology.

[ Parent ]

I sure as fuck hope you are right. (none / 0) (#115)
by Danzig on Thu May 26, 2005 at 03:56:05 AM EST

I would hate to have the depression I experienced before my use of LSD (or possibly 5-MeO-AMT or DOB) reoccur. If the brain cells responsible for making me feel like shit are dead forever, good. That being said not all drugs cause permanent brain alteration (or damage, if you think anything other than what you were given is "wrong".) Others might have lost their most valuable cells. I lost (hopefully) or suppressed (at worst) those most worthless to me. There is nothing noble, worthy, or valuable about pain.

You are not a fucking Fight Club quotation.
rmg for editor!
If you disagree, moderate, don't post.
Kill whitey.
[ Parent ]
uh (none / 0) (#152)
by circletimessquare on Thu May 26, 2005 at 04:24:12 PM EST

in your next life, learn how depression really works biochemically and neurologically before you form your bullshit retarded opinions, thanks


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Drug Culture (none / 1) (#124)
by xL on Thu May 26, 2005 at 10:50:13 AM EST

I would be the first to agree with you that a lot of what you could call 'drug culture' is plain dumb. Be it weed-brothers, alcoholics or speedfreaks, there's something completely moronic with the cultures that arise out of people bonding over their shared reliance on a substance. There's more to drugs than turning you into a moron, though. Granted, for many people this is the net effect. There's no denying, though, that certain drugs have a profound and mystic effect on the user's perception. For those in a profession that revolves around using people's perceptions creatively, going through these altered states can be a very compelling source of inspiration.

I think it's a bit short-sighted to conclude that drug use leads to the lowering of standards. I think it would be more fair to call it a shift in focus. Depending on your goals and the drug used, this can either hinder you or be of help. An example that confirms your view is how alcohol affects your priorities for short term goals (getting laid) over long term goals (being able to brag to your mates) so you'll leave the bar with a fat chick. An opposite example is the effects of marihuana on your attention span: Short term memory gets impaired which lessens the focus on the 'bigger picture' and gets the user to hyperfocus on details, which can be a tremendous benefit when working on music production or performance (richer details in the soundscape, less conformism in the performance of riffs or solos).

I think your problem is that you're way too level-headed to get into the head of the typical artist. Take that as a compliment, there's nothing bad about it, except if you feel a great urge to understand why Van Gogh took absynth or the Beatles took LSD. Art is about struggle, about madness. Great Art is about Great Struggles and Great Madness.



[ Parent ]
That seems a bit secluded to (none / 0) (#125)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 11:16:01 AM EST

a Romantic view of art, but it makes a good point: Art is not easy to create and drugs are generally an escape.

Oddly, Burroughs really felt that this was true.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

what if you're talking to an artist? (none / 0) (#153)
by circletimessquare on Thu May 26, 2005 at 04:36:34 PM EST

not that i am, but what if i were a great film director/ producer?

is what film directors not art?

being a film director requires a lot of that wonkish "unartistic" "level headedness" you talk about

so that means film directors are less of an artist than say a painter?

looking at the current obsessions of consumers and creators of art in high and low culture right now, i'd actually say the reverse is true

so you seem to be talking instead about who an artist is in terms of the guy who gets stoned and spreads his feces on an art canvas

my point is, you start with such a very narrow romantic view of what an artist does, what he/ she thinks, and what art is, to form your opinion above, that it renders your opinion practically useless

in other words, i can point to more artists who were shaped critically and artistically by abusive parents than those who were shaped critically and artisitically by their drug use such that you really have no point at all

the prevalance of drugs in art culture, in the end, is to me no more meaningful and insightful than the prevalance of bike riding in beijing in 1980: yeah, they went together, but it didn't mean much about what it means to be chinese

to me doing drugs and doing art are mere cosymptoms of a deeper mental structure, and art has nothing to do with drug use in a causative way, but both are simply effects a deeper mental thing going on

correlation is not causation

both being results of something else, not causing or effecting each other: if you took alcohol away from hemingway he would not write 10 more great books, but he would not write 10 less great books either... get it? so what is the relationship between drug use and art again?

while meanwhile, people who romanticize drugs in art culture like you do are merely providing support for an entrenched group of morons who think they'll smoke marijuana and become jimi hendrix

well, i won't make fun of that idea

because i don't need to: i think jimi hendrix himself would laugh at that idea


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I think we're sort of in greement (none / 1) (#156)
by xL on Thu May 26, 2005 at 07:00:57 PM EST

I could be silly and talk about Oliver Stone and mushrooms. But your point is really not that bad, I just wouldn't go as far as condemn all art-related drug use. Like you say, the people who make great art and use drugs would probably have done great art even without. On the other hand, who am I to judge what gets anyone going? Roald Dahl needed his favorite chair, Hendrix liked drugs. And a lot of silly pretend art students prefer to be stoned out of their heads while defacating on a canvas. Their art would suck equally hard if they stuck to drinking yoghurt. I hope you're not thinking they're only doing that because they shoot up/snort/toke/whatever, they were already fucked up to begin with.

[ Parent ]
exactly ;-) (none / 0) (#157)
by circletimessquare on Thu May 26, 2005 at 08:01:25 PM EST

i think of it like this: really an artistic soul is nothing more than an OPEN MIND

and so artists take drugs, because they are open to experiences nonartists with closed minds are not

so there is no CAUSATIVE connection between drugs and art in my mind, only a corrleation due to a deepr mental truth: having an open mind to new experiences- no artist can be an artist without that impulse

therefore, "artists take drugs" is even a misnomer: like you said before oliver stone took mushrooms ONCE... that makes him a once a month psychedelic activist? so can you REALLY say artists are heavy habitual users?

no, he probably tried it once or a few times, and shared his positive and/ or negative experiences, and moved on... as an artist with an open mind, into trying things more cautious/ fearful/ dim souls would not


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Who are Mr Borrows and Ms Lunch? (2.33 / 3) (#52)
by dimaq on Tue May 24, 2005 at 04:19:00 AM EST



They are (none / 0) (#59)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:27:34 AM EST

Brad and Angelina, of course....

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

I'll bite... (none / 1) (#54)
by mirleid on Tue May 24, 2005 at 07:32:58 AM EST

...just to see if you touch on Burrough's relationship/collaboration with Ministry...

Chickens don't give milk
I won't (none / 0) (#56)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 08:21:12 AM EST

because the rest of the essays will be about Naked Lunch.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Don't you think that the sentence(s)... (none / 1) (#57)
by mirleid on Tue May 24, 2005 at 08:34:55 AM EST

Smash the control images. Smash the control machine.

bear a relationship to the whole Naked Lunch narrative?


Chickens don't give milk
[ Parent ]
Not really. (none / 0) (#58)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 08:46:40 AM EST

He didn't get that heavily into specific retaliation-against-control writing until The Ticket That Exploded.  Nova Express is where he gets really into that mode of thinking.

Naked Lunch is very rudimentry, and that's what I intend to flesh out in the remaining essays.

Regardless, collaborations and influences on later artists could be a whole other essay in and of itself.  Laurie Anderson basically read text from his books in her peformances.  Patti Smith was heavily influenced, and was Devo and any really avante-garde artists from the '70's (Bowie, for example).  I don't want to get into it, to tell you the truth.  It's just too big of a subject; it could easily be a book all its own.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Ok... (none / 1) (#69)
by mirleid on Tue May 24, 2005 at 11:31:46 AM EST

Just for reference, though, I find myself often going back to this...

Chickens don't give milk
[ Parent ]
Yeah, it's a good list (none / 0) (#80)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 03:45:55 PM EST

Who's to say what will have a longer life, the books or the recordings.  I am more inclined to say the books, but his recordings are good and he was an interesting reader.  Hopefully, both will survive.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

I think (2.66 / 3) (#71)
by bankind on Tue May 24, 2005 at 11:52:22 AM EST

people would be more turned on to reading in general if rather than this pseudo-high brow shit that only appeals to undergraduates trying drugs for the first time, the modern study of literature would focus more on good damn story telling... ala Patrick O'Brien.

Why it took me until I was 28 to learn of POB, while I knew of Burroughs when I was 14 I'll never know.

well maybe David Cronenberg is to blame, but a weak education system run by the tax raping pinkos in washington are certainly also to blame.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman

Well, thanks for coming out.... (none / 0) (#74)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 01:04:15 PM EST

At 30 it seems more exciting than it did when I was 14 and trying to impress myself.

I don't think that the simple equation of story-telling equals quality is reliable.

also, please explain 'pseudo-high brow.'  Seems more like derisive cop-out than actual evaluation of quality.  How do you get more high-brow than circumventing traitional rhetoric and heading straight for logos and the pre-occupation of people with the Word, a la Kenneth Burke?

Perhaps you just didn't have a clue what Burroughs was talking about at 14?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

well you see, son (none / 0) (#100)
by bankind on Wed May 25, 2005 at 12:12:29 PM EST

I don't think that the simple equation of story-telling equals quality is reliable.

And I don't think a guy canning his own shit and selling it for the price of gold is necessarily art. Look you might be able to make some bullshit up about how this garbage is important, but for me and the world I live in, it ain't.

And you want to know what high-brow is? It is fucking physics and mathematics and chemistry-Hard sciences. There is your bar of comparison.

All these bullshit institutions built on joyce, pynchon, Morrison and all these other crap writers that you can only "get" if you read other crap writers that no real person reads unless they are forced to. Literature is fucking entertainment for working men like me who want something different than a policy paper or a project document. Without us, there would be no study of literature. Dickens knew it. And most writers knew it, until of course you get to the 20th century and the built off the rapes of tax payers American Endowment for the Arts.

A guy like POB researched the hell out of his topic, organized his ideas and wrote one of the best stories of the 20th century. But the subject of literature seems too interested in creating this market of self referential nonsense. So some drug addict randomly staples together a bunch of shit and people actually buy it?

Man, all that is just plain phony. A book is only as good as it is creative and well organized and that alone is the only criteria there is.

And I did figure all that out when I was about 14, so I guess that makes me smarter than some men twice my age, yeah?

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

If you want to read stories about (none / 1) (#102)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Wed May 25, 2005 at 01:33:35 PM EST

boats and sailors, that's good for you.  However, if we only stopped Literature at that, we'd be in a sorry state.

It's bizarre how offended you get over something you clearly missed the entire point of.  If I suddenly decided that reading books about boats by POB was a waste of time when I was 14, what would you say?

Anyway, as for science, you really should read Burroughs, then since it's EXACTLY WHAT HE CONSIDERED HIGH-BROW.

Back to school for you.

Son.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

good story telling (none / 0) (#103)
by bankind on Wed May 25, 2005 at 02:58:19 PM EST

can be about anything, but literature should only be about good story telling. Not sub-urbanite fascinations with counter-culture that they missed while mom drove them to the next big soccer match.

you write all this junk about "burroughs showing the darkness of man" his "dark side." The darkness of man is that everyday in southeast asia some eurotrash business executive fucks a 12 year old boy or girl. Some gun loving faggot on a bender (compared to the reality of the world I know) isn't dark or edgy, just pathetic. Read some reports on child trafficking if you need to find a reason to paint your finger nails black, listen to the smiths, and hate people.

That you even know Burroughs ideas on science, doesn't mean you have an education, it means you too busy dry humping the ideas of others to make your own--including an ability to tell good ideas from bad.

What? Next you're gonna tell me I'm a fool for not knowing he wipes his ass with 2-ply?

Where is the logic in that? I don't know where you got an education, but I think I can make a good guess about how long (or short) the bus was that took you there.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

This is fun. (none / 0) (#107)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Wed May 25, 2005 at 07:23:12 PM EST

The amount of assumptions you are making about something totally unrelated to the bizarre world you are talking about is amazing.  

This is a good time.

As for this inane idea: but literature should only be about good story telling

Please tell that to T.S. Eliot, Shakespeare, The Bible or Spenser.  They would be amused.

I think your reading ability got stalled somewhere along the line.  Did you grow up a fundamentalist religious person or something?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

assumptions? (none / 0) (#108)
by bankind on Wed May 25, 2005 at 10:16:58 PM EST

don't you say in your article that burroughs is the "darkside" of man? Isn't that his so called contribution to the world of literature?

Here is a prediction... in 30 years he will be forgotten. Had industrial rock groups (not punk, like you mistakenly say) like Ministry, Big Black, and the Butthole Surfers not championed the guy in the late 80's and early 90's, he would already be nothing more than a footnote..

200 years from now a review of 20th century literature will consist of king, koontz, leonard, grisham, clancy, harry potter, and crichton... because people will be interested in what normal folks read, not this stream of consciousness crap.

I also really like your point that Shakespeare is not a good story teller. And also that somehow the so called "greatest story ever told" isn't either

Keep digging that hole, son.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Making an ass of u and me... (3.00 / 2) (#110)
by LadyChatnoire on Thu May 26, 2005 at 02:01:52 AM EST

200 years from now a review of 20th century literature will consist of king, koontz, leonard, grisham, clancy, harry potter, and crichton... because people will be interested in what normal folks read, not this stream of consciousness crap.
No, because books go out of print when they stop selling. Ever hear of Rose Macauley? In her day, she sold way, way, way more books than her contemporary, Virginia Woolf, but she's out of print now because the academic feminists haven't "discovered" her.
Academia decides which books live on, not current popularity. I agree that the importance of story is often unfairly neglected in literary criticism for pretentious formal analysis that only appeals to lit students and professors, but that's just part of the discourse. These people study literature on a higher level than regular readers, because they are the experts. Why are they experts? Because they put a lot of time and thought into their subject, just like any other expert.
If you can't relate to this discussion, maybe you should do something else. Go read a bad book or something.


[ Parent ]
hahahaha (none / 0) (#114)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 03:51:15 AM EST

that was a great comment!

I wouldn't necessarily call literature academics "experts" as much as I would call them "people with the resources for unproductive research." In my field, economics, we call those same people "economic historians." and in the Poli-sci profession they are called "theorists."

Sure they put time in their subject, but it is only because they can afford the time and their time is cheap. If their time had any value, rather than trying to impress people on how well they can understand gibberish, there would be a focus on reviewing books to high level bibliophiles like myself.

Fiction is story telling and a better story is a better book. Any attempts to find cracks in between that statement is pedantic nonsense. I've become so completely turned off of literature because of the hubris associated with fiction. There is a huge gap in the academic output in the field of literature for people that read as much as I do.

Take Toni Morrison for example. "Hmm, I'll write a book of historical fiction without any knowledge of history and whole lot of black rage." WHAT THE FUCK?!? Had not the gender-race-gay academics not teamed up with oprah that fucking cunt would be back smoking crack in the ghetto where she belongs.

So I guess I don't relate, and I will go back to reading this new Jared Diamond book.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

high level bibliophile? (none / 1) (#118)
by Polverone on Thu May 26, 2005 at 04:57:18 AM EST

Did you implicitly endorse Grisham, Clancy, and Crichton upthread?*

Up Next: Dining with Bankind!

"Your typical egghead enjoys pseudo-highbrow crap like sushi, but Real Men who know genuine good food will eat mayonnaise and velveeta straight from the jar."

*Maybe your prediction of what would be remembered about 20th century writing was simply a prediction, not an expression of preference. Maybe. If the only two types of fiction in the world were Morrisonesque and Clancyesque, I don't think I would read any fiction at all.
--
It's not a just, good idea; it's the law.
[ Parent ]

I'd love to see what Captain Reado (none / 0) (#121)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 09:56:51 AM EST

would think of high-brow nonsense such as Tristam Shandy or other pieces of crap that only academics read like, Henry James or William Faulkner.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

I take it (none / 0) (#128)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:05:15 PM EST

you mean TristRam Shandy, which requires much less thought than perhaps you'd imagine. It is jsut a bunch of random ideas tossed about.

And Faulkner and James miss far more times than they hit.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

How would you know (none / 0) (#131)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:09:06 PM EST

captain Google?  You were probably that douche who wore black all the time and waxed poetic about the books he bought but didn't read.

Get over it.  Some people just like something that isn't there to be read for the sake of relaxation.  It t'aint a sin, kid.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

never said it was a sin (none / 0) (#135)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:31:58 PM EST

but ain't nothing "scholarly" about it.

And no that wasn't me, I did most of my serious independent reading at my university library after the Marines.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Well, that says it all, son (none / 0) (#137)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:35:45 PM EST

The Marines.  No wonder you're so tolerant and pragmatic.

Assuming that you were not 14, when you claim to have heard of Naked Lunch, or 17, when you claim to have read/heard of Ulysses by Joyce, then I guess you never got your sea-legs vis a vis books until you were much older, after the Marines.  Which leads back to the point I made earlier, that you have obviously not read those books or when you did, you had no FRIKKIN idea what they were talking about.

Just read my essays; you'll probably like something easier than sailing related lit.

And, by the way, if it can get you a Ph.D., then I guess, by logical, scientific definition, it IS, in fact, scholarly.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

WOW! (none / 0) (#143)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 02:12:11 PM EST

The Marines. No wonder you're so tolerant and pragmatic.

I don't think I've ever seen someone cram hypocrisy in so few words! Congratulations.

And you are absolutely right! I didn't understand a great many of the books I pursued at that age, but from what I did understand I certainly understood that there wasn't much too understand or worth understanding.

You're not going to find the secrets of life, or cure cancer, or solve poverty by reading the sexual fantasies of a heroin junky. If that stuff gives you a stiff one great for you, but don't start bullshitting me that this is high level art or even well written. OR the worst crime of all, claiming that it is deeper than it really is. A kid being hung while ejaculating or an another guy ejaculating a secret code is about on par with a Ron Jeremy Movie.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Well there you go: (none / 0) (#144)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 02:21:19 PM EST

"You're not going to find the secrets of life, or cure cancer, or solve poverty by reading the sexual fantasies of a heroin junky."

I guess all literature has DO something to make it worth reading now doesn't it.

What about stories about enslaving other people and perpetuating coloialism, say in the line of, oh I don't know, Patrick O'Brien.

Regardless, clown, I think we can all say that the Sexual Revolution of the 1960's at least called attention to some glaring inadequacies in the world, and books like Naked Lunch helped that.

So, don't try and preach to me about whatever mixed up, unfounded and inexperienced ideas you've created in your lonely little world.  If you don't understand something, you don't understand something.  That's it, despite what you lie to yourself about.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

ughhh... (none / 1) (#146)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 03:12:14 PM EST

I think we can all say that the Sexual Revolution of the 1960's at least called attention to some glaring inadequacies in the world, and books like Naked Lunch helped that.

....I guess if you consider the rapid spread of STDs that resulted from the Sexual Revolution as something that needed to pick up the pace. (And hmm that was global? someone should have told Mao.)

I guess for me reading books that include well researched histories (which you need to perhaps brsuh up on a bit) that include very realistic, nasty, and corrupt societies do have the merit of containing some information that does reflect the real life developing society I see around me in East Asia (I'm a huge fan of Deadwood for that same reason).

And I think If I did fit into your model of "inexperienced and isolated," wouldn't I be more drawn to books about other "inexperienced and isolated" people like your drug addicts and raving lunatics?

Also, I'm just curious about how much more you think I should "engage the world?" After being in the Marines, traveling through most of Asia (mostly on motorbike), and working in poverty reduction, I'm really running short of ideas. You know of any good technical editor jobs available?

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Idioticc Comment Round-up (none / 0) (#147)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 03:21:47 PM EST

Well, okay let's start here:

....I guess if you consider the rapid spread of STDs that resulted from the Sexual Revolution as something that needed to pick up the pace. (And hmm that was global? someone should have told Mao.)

Uhh, history buff, STD's have been around for a long time before and after the Sexual Revolution.  Let's take for example, WW2, something that would be close to your heart as a Marine.  STD haven, kid.

But, after the 60's we knew that education was important, a point Burroughs makes.

Don't advocate learning history?

Okay, on to this bit inanity:

I guess for me reading books that include well researched histories (which you need to perhaps brsuh up on a bit) that include very realistic, nasty, and corrupt societies do have the merit of containing some information that does reflect the real life developing society I see around me in East Asia (I'm a huge fan of Deadwood for that same reason).

I'm not sure what leads you to think I need to brush up on my histry, since we haven't been talking about history and I haven't referred to anything in history and by extension haven't incorrectly referred to anything in history that didn't happen, as well.

Now this:

And I think If I did fit into your model of "inexperienced and isolated," wouldn't I be more drawn to books about other "inexperienced and isolated" people like your drug addicts and raving lunatics?

You might have me on the 'isolated' case.  I don't know whether you are or not.  However, your total lack of knowledge about iterature that isn't designed to be read in the back of cargo jet you hopped from Guam to Hawaii betrays a serious lack of experience in reading.

And finally:

Also, I'm just curious about how much more you think I should "engage the world?" After being in the Marines, traveling through most of Asia (mostly on motorbike), and working in poverty reduction, I'm really running short of ideas. You know of any good technical editor jobs available?

I'm not interested in your resume or your humanitarian efforts.  I also don't recall asking you to enagage the world.

However, if you could go back a few posts and please describe the hypocisy I am accused of and define high-brow Lit for all of us, that would be appreciated.

so far, all we've gotten out of this is that you like easy-to-read thrillers and marine narratives that are sometimes made into movuies with Russel Crowe, and that you definitely didn't take any English classes in Univeristy, if in fact you went to university.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

it is one thing (none / 0) (#159)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 10:41:54 PM EST

to bite my fucking style, son. But you refer to the sexual revolution of the 60's (which somehow was a global event) and then say you don't refer to history. I think maybe the drugs are affecting the memory there.

Then you try to characterize me with "inexperienced ideas you've created in your lonely little world" and I provide a case to the contrary.

I think it is great that you've been fooled into believing this whole library of incoherent babble has meaning based on expert testimonials. It makes you a good little consumer for organic food, homeopathic medicines, and napster's new alternative music service.

If you like to spend your time reading fiction writers randomly shitting words on a page because some guy with a pony-tail told you it is important, obviously so be it.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

I guess you have me (none / 0) (#165)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri May 27, 2005 at 08:24:18 AM EST

you powerful arguments and solid grasp of the last 20years of paper-back genre fiction has toppled a lifetime of reading.

If, son, Yoda, Literary Jedi Master, you could please write a nice story about how your vast knowledge could contribute to the world of reading I think we would all appreciate it.

Somehow, though, I suspect, you are only good at annoying people who you find offensive because they got to a subject first.

Stop whining.  Didn't they cover that in the Marines?

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Also, you never actually pointed out (none / 0) (#145)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 02:22:20 PM EST

the purported 'hypocrisy.'  Where is it?

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

here (none / 0) (#148)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 03:26:57 PM EST

you don't think it is just a bit to call me "intolerant" while making judgments just because I was in the military? While certainly I am pretty fucking intolerant, you are insulting the Marine Corps because you think it does not follow your standards.


"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Not at all, son (none / 0) (#149)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 03:40:17 PM EST

I'm pointing out that you are intolerant, and unbknownst to you, referencing all the intolerant Marines I've met in life (not a few, let me tell) and assuming that you fall into the same intolerant category.  A simple, scientific observation that the Marine Coprs chruns out intolerance isn't wrong, either, it's just observation based on a constant experience.

However, that's not hypocritical, since I have been tolerating your inane banter for hours now, and quite enjoying it.

Son.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

For a lover of language (none / 0) (#161)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 11:13:49 PM EST

You don't seem to really know what some words mean. Tolerance means respecting another persons' ideas and opinions. If you applied your same logic to blacks and used their stereotypes it would be racism.

You've proven in this thread that you are prejudiced, judgmental and elitist, which are all opposites of tolerance (recall you little "Farmer's Lit" slam before).

You're a big fucking hypocrite, super lit dude, but that is what results from hubris.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Whatever (none / 0) (#164)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri May 27, 2005 at 08:20:48 AM EST

Whatever jabs I take at you are for you, son.

So, listen, son, since you obviously are pushing for this to become personal, why don't write your own essay on why modern Lit is so bad and somehow the only good writin is the writin that reads like a right proper novel, not none of that silly modern lit crap from pony-tail wearin' hippy scum, but good honest Amercin writin like they did when they wrote that old Constitution back in at the turn of the centry?

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

see other post <nt> (none / 0) (#168)
by bankind on Fri May 27, 2005 at 12:49:01 PM EST


"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Weak (none / 0) (#169)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri May 27, 2005 at 01:17:41 PM EST

Why don't you stop hiding out and write something formal?  You have a lot of opinions.  Do you have anything to back them up?

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Luke, I'm not your father (none / 0) (#174)
by scartastic on Fri May 27, 2005 at 10:28:13 PM EST

Cmmon this "son" shit is way past old by now. Your intellectual cock fight is fascinating, but the whole "son" thing is tired.

Are you trying to create the impression that you're a smarmy old guy? Even if you are does that make you any more 'right'?

Jesus H, regardless, seeing the "son" shit after every sentence is painfully retarded.

So let's just stop it ok, son?


"How do inuits spell relief?"
[ Parent ]
Uhhh, did you read the (none / 0) (#177)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sat May 28, 2005 at 12:31:46 AM EST

said cock fight?  He called me son at some point, revealing that he is likely about 26 or something.

That should make you laugh, I think....

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Also, you missed (none / 0) (#132)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:10:28 PM EST

Henry James.  Any words of wisdom for him?  Soetimes he wrote some pretty experimental stuff, you know.  And what about Hemingway?  He did, too?  Any pearls, son?

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

hmmm (none / 0) (#133)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:21:37 PM EST

Hemingway is the MOST over rated American writer of ALL fucking time.

And are you sure I missed James, might want to double check that high level reading comprehension of yours.

Come on pull out the big guns so I can tell you Thomas Pynchon's Gravity Rainbow, V and the Crying of Lot 49 are all shit. Or maybe some comments on Louis Ferdinand Celine, WH Auden, or Thomas Dylon.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

es, you did miss James (none / 0) (#138)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:38:05 PM EST

and its Dylan Thomas, clown, not Thomas Dylon.

You are good.  You haven't read anything short of a comic book, have you.

Now you're actually mocking writers that do write straight-ahead narrative that I threw in there just to bait you.

Nice!

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Some kind of bait there! (none / 0) (#141)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:56:41 PM EST

I find Henry James as boring as much as I find Hemingway full of shit. You didn't pull a fast one there, junior. Obviously you need a summation of my major points:

1) Literature is more hubris than value

2)stream of consciousness is trash.

Some complaints fall under the first category others fall under the second, some fall under both! I'll be sure to mark things 1, 2, or 1&2 from now on.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Agreed, kiddo. (none / 0) (#142)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 02:06:21 PM EST

You like a nice, simple laid out story that holds your hand, makes you cry and dries your eyes at the end.  Good, old-fashioned farmer Lit.

That's fine and it's legitimate stuff.

But, why bother with the massive troll?  Are you just so insecure that you need to let all of us know how deep you are, even though you have NOTHING to add to this conversation bu abuse?

Don't worry: your pee-pee is probably big enough.

Now, back to my Thomas Dylon.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

there you go (none / 0) (#126)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 12:41:53 PM EST

*Maybe your prediction of what would be remembered about 20th century writing was simply a prediction, not an expression of preference. Maybe. If the only two types of fiction in the world were Morrisonesque and Clancyesque, I don't think I would read any fiction at all.

My fucking point exactly. Using your dining preference, it is the choice of a hot dog with or without beluga caviar. Just because somebody tells me it is a more sophisticated taste doesn't make it any better of a hotdog or worth the cost.

And I'm not someone that is anti-art, I just think that literature is a academic con game. Just look at rather famously bad critics top 100 books of the 20th century versus say the AFI's top 100 films. These literature bozos are just out of touch, really Ulysses? Nobody reads that shit and anyone that wastes their time doing is a moron. And certainly when I was about 17 reading crap like this, looking back, it was a huge waste of time.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

You dove into deep waters (none / 0) (#130)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:07:38 PM EST

long before you could swimm.  It's obvious to us all.  If you think stories about boats have more staying power than Ulysses, which I seriously dount you have read more than once, if at all, then good for you.  You will have a whale of a time when your kids get sick of your old fashioned sailing cap and want to read Literature.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Well (none / 0) (#139)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:40:23 PM EST

I see your taking a very Ulysses-esque angle to your comments because I'm finding them more and more incomprehensible. I'm finding that meta-humor much more compelling than cheap shots at historical fiction.

However based on your tastes so far, maybe if you knew the major character in the O'Brien books is an opium and coke addict, perhaps you'd get more excited about it. You know drugs... insanity... darkness..... oooohhh...

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

I'm not interested in any of that (none / 0) (#140)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:47:36 PM EST

actualty.  I just like the language.

Maybe you should read Gone with the Wind.  Historical fiction,..guns,..America,...oohhhh

Also, if we're going to continue this, could please make an effort to argue, as opposed to make random, incorrect statement about the things you did or did not say?  It gets tiresome reading back to find out which books you clearly have not read and which books you may have read.

Like say Thomas Dylon. Son.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

I guess (none / 0) (#160)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 10:59:10 PM EST

in the great hubris of literature, really when it gets down to it, you modern fiction-afficnados can only base your arguments on trashing classics and reversing the name of a writer I haven't read in over 10 years.

Yeah, you really seem to love language, what did you say in an earlier comment, "pee-pee." Son, you truly have a mastery.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Look, just face it (none / 0) (#163)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri May 27, 2005 at 08:17:45 AM EST

you don't read much (probably 10 books a year), but more than the average American, so you consider yourself a bibliophile because most people around you don't.

Good for you.

Either way, you make lousy arguments and you know nothing about Lit.  You obviously dabbled in some more complicated stuff a while ago, didn't understand it and now you have very large and insecure chip on your shoulder. Get over it and go troll some stoy about paperbacks.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

okay (none / 0) (#150)
by Polverone on Thu May 26, 2005 at 03:57:22 PM EST

I can respect a difference of taste. It just seemed like rejecting Joyce and Pynchon in favor of Clancy and Grisham is jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. I was able to appreciate and enjoy Gravity's Rainbow up until the final book where the narrative and sanity really break up; then it was a chore getting to the end. I enjoyed The Hunt for Red October (my first and last Clancy fiction) considerably less though it was easier to read. More than both of those, though, I prefer All the Pretty Horses and Blood Meridian. Cormac McCarthy writes fiction that academics and readers can both appreciate.
--
It's not a just, good idea; it's the law.
[ Parent ]
Those are great books. (none / 0) (#151)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 04:22:35 PM EST

I loved Blood Meridian.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

you would (none / 0) (#190)
by Battle Troll on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 08:36:30 PM EST

It's a lot like Naked Lunch.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]
I found it pretty different, but I know what (none / 0) (#191)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 09:00:56 PM EST

you mean.  Blood Meridian seems far more focused on straight violence than anything else.

By the way, your sig roooooolz.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

what about the scene where the Comanches (none / 0) (#192)
by Battle Troll on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 11:06:11 PM EST

Sodomize the dying cavalrymen?

I've had this .sig since '02, IIRC. Thanks for your kind language.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]

Yeah, there are some similarities (none / 0) (#193)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Jun 10, 2005 at 07:47:20 AM EST

but I think the 2 are very different.  The only book even remotely like Nake dLunch in mind os the Canterbury Tales.  All desperation and scatalogical humor.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Are there any boats or pirates (none / 0) (#120)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 09:54:41 AM EST

in that book?

Also, are there any racists?

Please name a single book, novel format or otherwise from 100 years ago that you know about not because it is being studied by - what did you them? - people with the resources for unproductive research.

Son.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

easy (none / 0) (#127)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 12:57:21 PM EST

"Please name a single book, novel format or otherwise from 100 years ago that you know about not because it is being studied by - what did you them? - people with the resources for unproductive research."

If I had a longer time frame I would say all four classics of Chinese literature which are all so consequential in east Asian societies, but obviously the lack of heroin, open sexuality, and slave-ownern on slave sex scenes keeps these books out of western literature classes. You also rarely see studies of a Jack London or as I've said before Patrick O'Brien.

But I'm sure the coherence in all these stories is such a turn-off.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Perfect examples, son (none / 0) (#129)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:05:37 PM EST

You come on with pulp-writers as the key to all reading and then hand down the Penguin classics that PROFESSORS have decided you should read.  Who do you think edits those books?

Listen, son, one of the keys to arguing is knowing your stuff.  You DO NOt know your stuff anf you're just insecure.  Get over it.  The Marquis de Sade is wildly famous, srudied in universities and he wrote coherent sex, drugs and rock and roll, too.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Penguin classics? (none / 1) (#167)
by bankind on Fri May 27, 2005 at 12:47:05 PM EST

I'd cheer the day water margin or even Romance of the 3 Kingdoms had a penguin classic version (they do have Dream of the Red Chamber mis-titled as Story of the Stone ). But instead, Americans know more about Interzone than Wu Song or a sewn up vagina than Zuge Liang. And I know the people that edit these books and they are a far different breed than pipe smoking, tweed jacket, modern Lit crowd, first of all because they are normally rather adventuresome polyglots--such as the most well regarded American editor of Chinese Lit who hasn't left Beijing since 1947.

Now as far as what I know, don't know and don't care to know, to me understanding the book that Mao Zedong carried in his ruck sack during the long march is far more significant than William S. Burroughs sexual fantasies about young boys. That is a work of fiction with significance--the corner stone of Chinese military strategy. So literature master, tell me how often you cracked open the pages and studied Guan Yu? Not much I bet. And that to me is a huge fucking problem with American (actually western) literature studies. It is insular hubris regardless of this huge facade of multiculturalism. There is not scope much beyond some troubled psyche.

You don't learn this in the Western literature university system. Instead you read about slave owner on slave gang bangs in Beloved. Or oohh Lolita so edgy! Bukowski, what an iconoclast! Or Bulgakov what WIT! Or Faulkner, Kerouac, Joyce, Kafka, Koestler, Gaddis, Gass, Pynchon, Gogol, Marquez, etc etc etc

You appear VERY mainstream of the pop-academic crew. Burroughs is quite run-of-the-mill. And I'm sure you can tell me a thousand things about the malaria hallucinations in Journey to the End of the Night before you could say one thing about Ho Xuan Hong, but you know what, I have to say that one thing might means quite a bit more--if you can comprehend a global perspective.

Sure you may like this stuff, great, I like good narratives. But see rather than focusing on the book, you try to blow up Naked Lunch and modern lit into some sort of great social-political movement (as you've been told by literature academics). You really think a thousand pages of this random word, self-referential nonsense has one bit more political-social significance than 5 pages of Lu Xun. Well I'm sure if to you the Sexual Revolution of the 60's was "global" and Burroughs "caused it," you might come to that conclusion.

But that is of course what I mean by insular hubris.

Now as far as your accusation that I'm not well read, I've actually trudged my way through books like JR because I thought doing these things were important. Because I thought that is what being "educated" meant. Because like you, that is what I had been told. But I'm trying to tell you now, you don't need to read these things. They are totally worthless. I'm not saying burn them, I'm saying don't be a mark. If you want to read something "challenging" try the LBJ bio by Robert Caro or if you are really hardcore, try Roderick MacFarquhar's Origins of the Cultural Revolution. At least then you'll know Peng De Huai's great contribution to political discourse, rather than ohhhh... Devo.

And if you want to continue the discussion, reply to this comment, I'm tired of chasing your replies.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

What an Original Person You are!!! (none / 0) (#170)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri May 27, 2005 at 01:28:33 PM EST

You approach Eastern lit with the mind of a typical Western thinker and then pat yourself on the back like you've done us all a frikkin favor.

I guess we can end this, iconoclast of all educated thought, since I am 1) a white guy, 2) not embarrassed about it, 3) a total and utter fan of Western thought and Lit and only interested in Western thought and Lit because I live in the West and do not plan or desire to go to the East, and 4)the Eastern Lit I've read doesn't do it for me.  Because I'm a Western thinker through and through.

Don't be such a wanker! Cop outs like yours, appealing to a tradition of Lit that has NOTHING to do with the one in our culture is so, so, so lame.  Did you preach to all the thinkers in the East about how close-minded they are not knowing the intricacies of Western lit when you were over there?  No.

I live in a city that is over 5 million people in North america, and +50% of them are from another country.  At least 20% are from China.  And, you know, i still find myself only interested in Western Lit.  And, you know what else, spanky, they only find themselves interested in Eastern Lit, with the exception of the few that decide to stray outside the sciences.

So, I guess, you are either the world's most open-minded guy, contrdicting what you said about yourself being totally intolerant, or you're just what I suspect: an insecure dweeb who keeps living in the past of nice trip he took to Asia, while honing Google skills to finally get the correct names of books he never actually read.

Why not start with the cultural basis you know and then actually LEARN something?

And by the way: not listening to what intelligent people tell you, like say professors, is not smart.  If I did that in any other field I'd get drummed out for being a moron.  So, it only makes sense to take the advice of those more experienced.  

I believe they cover that interesting topic in both the fields of Economics and Eastern Lit (i.e. Dhammapadda).

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Crack that whip! (none / 0) (#172)
by bankind on Fri May 27, 2005 at 04:17:36 PM EST

Firstly, this isn't a trip, I live in Vietnam (and Beijing before that). And second, I'm not talking about Herman Hesse, Alan Watt, the Tibetan Book of the Dead or the Diamond Sutra (which provided much of the foundation in the books you do seem to read), I'm talking about the traditional stories of a quarter of the world's population. The equivalents of Homer with the readership of the bible. And you probably don't know anything about them. Outlaws of the Marsh and the other books and writers I mentioned are much more similar to Robin Hood and King Arthur than what you seem to describe as eastern culture. Ho Xuan Hong wrote pornography!

Obviously none of that appeals to you because again, no drugs, no counter-culture, no DEVO.

And I'm not appealing to eastern literature writ large, I'm appealing to the craft and art of story telling, which is far more impacting, far more difficult than cutting and pasting from a dictionary. You can't honestly tell me Finnegan's Wake is a work of art. It isn't, it is a fucking concept and not even a complete idea.

You've been duped into believing this thing has merit. And a hundred years from now, the 20th century will certainly be the known as the dark age of fiction.

And regarding "white guilt," if you've been asleep, the center of the world is shifting towards the Pacific. Understanding what it is to be the co-dominant culture of the world and learning an Asian language (or even 2) is simply hedging your bets. I was drawn here because I think observing economics in transition is the best way to study economics in general--which has (and continues to have) nothing to do with culture.

Since you don't really seem to understand these type concepts over say "white guilt" (which is of course such a HUGE topic in the literature department I'm sure), I have to conclude that you are pretty fucking vapid, which is a second cousin of insular hubris.

And this concept of insular hubris, it isn't regarding all academia or even the entire scope of literature, is directed at the current dominating opinions of modern literature scholars, the comparative lit bozos, and aggressive multicultural dolts.

I really have to thank you for this thread, I don't think a great phrase like "insular hubris" (which is just so spot fucking on) would have occurred without you demonstrating it over and over.

Now why don't you try to respond to my arguments, rather than inventing things I haven't said.

Whip it good, son.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Thanks, son, for your (none / 0) (#173)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri May 27, 2005 at 05:12:35 PM EST

constant lack of insight and your constant use (and demonstration of) insular hubris.

Sinse you live in Asia and you seem to think the rest of the frikkin Western world is so Asian-influenced, please enlighten us all with an essay about Asian Lit.

And stop interfering in comment threads about which you seem to have NO FRIKKIN UNDERSTANDING of.  Face it, you are a Westerner, living in Asia and completely unaware of Western Lit.

Anyway, write back all you want.  I have to complete my next essay on a very good writer from the Dark Ages of Western Lit.

Didn't Patrick O'Brien write then?  

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Son, you've lost this argument (none / 0) (#175)
by bankind on Fri May 27, 2005 at 11:50:06 PM EST

Sinse you live in Asia and you seem to think the rest of the frikkin Western world is so Asian-influenced, please enlighten us all with an essay about Asian Lit.

Err. so you mean that the beat writers were not influenced by the Tibetan Book of the Dead? I guess you should kill yourself and then tell Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac and Leary to perhaps not mention it so much as an influence. Do you even know who Alan Watts was? In the end, the beat writers were really just Eastern philosophy mixed with drug addictions and open homosexuality. Far more important for a small, isolated political-social movement than really great contributors to the English language.

But sure if all you know (being loosely applied at this point) is that movement, then it could seem bigger than it really was.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Seriously, instead of (none / 0) (#176)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sat May 28, 2005 at 12:30:42 AM EST

just living in your own little world, write your essay.

And, no, you're wrong, Burroughs wasn't influenced by the Tibetan Book of the Dead, dork.  Nor, was he part of the Beats, as I make mention of a few times.

It would help your arguments if your read the essay.

Also, saying that the other person lost usually signifies your loss.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

You don't really know the material very well. (none / 0) (#178)
by bankind on Sat May 28, 2005 at 08:16:30 AM EST

Ginsberg put Naked Lunch together from a series of Burrough's random scribblings (and at one point, if I recall my history correct, was considered to be a co-author). You're "he isn't a Beat argument" holds no fucking water at all and good luck trying to re-write history with that one.

All the beats took much of the depiction in the TBD of the separation between material v. spiritual realities as essentially a free moral pass to experiment with drugs to understand "spirituality" through mind alertation (which was done much better with the worship of Bachus only about 2000+ years before-being the god of wine AND philosohpy). The attraction and place of Naked Lunch in the Beats was its predominating themes of physical attachment-sex, violence, ect.. which are very similar to the tests the spirit faces post death in the TBD. If you ever had second to look at Tibetan artwork you would see how important sex and violence are in their religion.

Your attempts to revise history (a classic example of literature academic insular hubris) and even disregard the context of the material (the eastern influence) is quite astonishing.

So this next great work, what is it, Burroughs was a Victorian?

But really my interest isn't the specifics of what influenced what (which is always very simple in very simple works of bad fiction), but that the whole process of trying expand a very badly written book into a "global" social movement. And how much this activity, which dominates academic literature, has replaced the art of story telling.

But anyway, son, it appears your little hamster wheel is grinding to a stop, so I guess I'll have to say I'm done thrashing you now.

Really can't wait for this next post! Haven't had this much fun on K5 since the Alabama economist left.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Listen, child, when (none / 0) (#179)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sat May 28, 2005 at 08:34:42 AM EST

Ginsberg helped put NL together he wasn't a Buudhist yet.  For someone so informed, you should probably already know that.  Nice try, though.  There are a lot of really bad webites out there, so perhaps you should produce some of the ridiculous work you're taking all yhis lame crap from.  I've read pretty much everything anyone of note has said about Burroughs, and there is no mention in even in the slightest about influences from Eastern philosophy, especially form ginsberg who didn't get into it until the 60's.

Burroughs never even bothered to dabble.  That, I'm sure, you do know.

If you want to spread lies, that's fine, but at least use ACTUAL history.  As for his place in the Beats, that has been arguable from the start.  People like to put him there, but he never thought of himself that way, and in the light of history, people have tended to see him as on the fringes or not with them at all.  Sorry, I don't get t make things up, I jut get to report.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

In fact I have a quote for you, kiddo: (none / 0) (#180)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sat May 28, 2005 at 08:44:02 AM EST

you can find it in Wising Up the Marks, by Timotyh S. Murphy on page 154:  "This may partly explain Burroughs's selectivity regarding historical books of the dead: his lack of interest in the Tibetan Book [of the Dead] may be attributable to its popularity among those members of the Anglo-European counter-culture who adopted versions of Zen-Buddhist philosophy and tended to refrain from active dissent."

And, to quote Buuroughs' himself in 'Ah Pook is Here': For this reason I consider the Egyptian and Tibetan books of the dead, with their emphasis on ritual and knowing the right words, totally inadequate."

Got any other whoppers, son? Seriously, let's try to stick to facts in our mud-slinging, shall we?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

We can't stop the dancing chicken. (none / 0) (#181)
by bankind on Sat May 28, 2005 at 10:19:05 AM EST

Send an electrician.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Devo was much more your territory (none / 0) (#182)
by bankind on Sat May 28, 2005 at 10:34:39 AM EST

Burroughs was not a Zen Buddhists (which I never claimed), but he certainly held the belief that reality is an illusion, which he got from Eastern religions. I've read Ginsberg comparing Naked Lunch to the TBD, but you can find those quotes in all those little academic books yourself. Again, I'm in a developing country scratching these little comments out over a modem and don't have a whole lot time of goggling at about 28k.

But really I'm curious what parts of history you think I made up here? You're saying that Ginsberg didn't basically co-write Naked Lunch?

And in your quote you have, he is obviously saying he is against Buddhism as a religion, not specifically the philosophy. I've read plenty of his quotes were he states he admires and agrees with Buddhist teachings regarding material existence. But again Burroughs was a degenerate drug addict and most of the things he says is a contradicting mess of nonsense. For people with uninteresting lives, that can often be confused with DEEP.

In the future you should fit some of your quotes to the argument rather than vice-versa. That is one of them skills we learn in an education, son.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

You're so good at re-writing history! (none / 0) (#183)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sat May 28, 2005 at 01:01:11 PM EST

Please provide the dates for when Ginsberg compared NL to TBD.  I would imagine that, since he did not become a Buddhist until after NL was written, and since he only cut out pieces that he thought were extraneous, with the help of Jack Kerouac, and Brion Gysin, and since it was all Burroughs work, and not Ginberg's, I'd say you're wrong.

Why not provide some actual evidence instead of conjecture. "That is one of them skills we learn in an education, son."

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Ask your local librarian (none / 0) (#184)
by bankind on Sat May 28, 2005 at 01:35:27 PM EST

I don't have time to chase down a specific quote on a subject matter I grew out of a long time ago. Plus I don't have access to good library resources.

I'm pretty sure it was in a paper/interview where Ginsberg was reflecting back on his time working on Naked Lunch. And I'm pretty sure it is the one where he says that because he felt he didn't write exactly half, and he wanted Burroughs to get all the money, he didn't put his name as co-author. It shouldn't be too hard for you to find, but I'm sure you wouldn't admit it if you did.

I'm really just waiting for this reference where Burroughs disagrees with the Buddhist perception of reality. The guy meditated, used isolation chambers, and practiced sleep deprivation; I guess he learned all that from Al Jergenson.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

I have the interview. (none / 0) (#185)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sat May 28, 2005 at 03:36:06 PM EST

It's in the 1975. There's just no reason to think Burroughs was influenced by, or even read the TBD before writing Naked Lunch, and Ginberg piecing the initial draft of the book together does not show influence of a specific text.  

IT's just reaching.

Face it, you're playing in the deep end, and now you're drowning.

But, at ;east you've done some reading, which is more than I suspected.

Why don't you sit down and write something, since you obviously do have the time.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

well (none / 0) (#186)
by bankind on Sat May 28, 2005 at 11:22:18 PM EST

the progression in NL through various cycles of sex and violence certainly is organized similar to the TBD (and Ginsberg did organize the manuscript). And it is hard to deny that Burroughs would not have at least heard about TDB consider the group of people (the beats) that he IS associated with.

But again what got into this area of discussion because you said Eastern Philosophy held NO interest/relevance to you, which I thought was quite an oversight on your part regarding the type of pop literature you're into. It does appear you've backtrakced a good bit since that comment, but you could have been trolling.

Anyway your steam is obviously running out, so I'll let you go back to searching for a wife on suicidegirls.com and jamming the Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy.

But thanks for your interest in a full-blown article, I don't really have the time right now to organize my thoughts. The occasional 10-20 minutes I take to scribble something here is just a diversion from work and talking about Burroughs does remind me of high school.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Maybe if you wrote something (none / 0) (#187)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sun May 29, 2005 at 09:19:16 AM EST

instead of trolling for a monr incorrect point, you could interest other readers in something.

I would say having heard of a text does not mean doodly.  And Ginsberg only organized it initially.  The real work goes to Brion Gysin and Burroughs when Girodias decided to publish it finally and gave them two weeks to put the manuscript together.

So, instead of trying to strain a dead end to death just prove your personal pet-projects are the ultimate answer, perhaps you really should consider writing an articel.

You most definitely have the time.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

I think you mean (none / 0) (#189)
by Battle Troll on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 08:20:56 PM EST

"...that Mao's litter-bearers carried in his knapsack..."
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]
Also! (none / 1) (#123)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 10:01:48 AM EST

Have you told this to your local University English department?

"Fiction is story telling and a better story is a better book. Any attempts to find cracks in between that statement is pedantic nonsense. I've become so completely turned off of literature because of the hubris associated with fiction. There is a huge gap in the academic output in the field of literature for people that read as much as I do."

As they have probably never heard this original viewpoint form someone outside of their Ivory Halls, they would be interested in your unique and learned point of view.  I have always wondered why there are no classes devoted to the deep study of Grisham or Clancy.

ENG356 - Modailty and Irony in Grisham
ENG412 - King and the Rhetoric of Pulp-Fiction
ENG456 - Stories About Some Nice Boats By Patrick O'Brien Which are Very Good Because He Boned Up on His Boat Knowledge

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

well my point was (none / 0) (#134)
by bankind on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:23:18 PM EST

when there is that popular fiction in the 20th century course, it will cover those writers. I frankly can't stand them, but it is what people read and what sells.

It is apparent that you are only interested in books that fit your need to feel a part of some counter culture society and also within your political beliefs. O'Brien being rather conservative and out of fashion obviously isn't the thing for you.

But really you showed your cards when you don't know that Diamond (who only got a Pulitzer and is currently on the best seller non-fiction lists).

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Yes, it's true (none / 0) (#136)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 01:32:10 PM EST

I tend not to read scientific non-fiction best-sellers, as I read scientific ALL FRIKKIN DAY LONG and do my other work at noght.

Nonetheless, i never said anythingat all about Diamond, so what are you talking about.

Face it, kid, you're insecure.  I am not part of any counter-culture.  I'ma card-carrying Republican who likes to read things that challenge me and then I like to comment on it.

Get some water-wings, son, you're drowning.  Just admit that you only read to put yourself to sleep or win arguments at the coffee-shop.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Hi, son (none / 0) (#119)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 09:50:50 AM EST

Thanks, son, for all the info, son.

Perhaps you remember some bands from the late 70's called Devo and Laurie Anderson and Blondie and Lou Reed, son. They, my son, seem to have been influenced by Burroughs first, son.

As for your very funny approximation of what people will be reading in the future, son, please tell us all you are kidding.  I mean, son, let me quote - king, koontz, leonard, grisham, clancy.  Son?  Genre writers, son, do not generally, son, survive outside the generation they write in, son.  Like, son, say, Leon Uris or Mickey Spilane, son.

As for Shakespeare, son, he wrote these here things called Sonnets.  150 of them, in fact, son.  Not much for storytelling, son, and you probably never came across them in your How To Write for Comp Sci Guys survey course, son.

But all of this can be easily solved by your answering one question:  How long has the novel been popular?  Find the answer to that, son, and you will, my son, fnd the GIGANTIC FRIKKIN FLAW in your silly, unedumacated argument.

How about this:  I, son, will not try and tell you, son, that Stephen King couldn't write his way out of a Turkish Prison where you will be raped unless you write a single good sentence, and you stick your Atari games, son.  

Deal?

Son?

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

+5, Awesome (none / 0) (#188)
by Battle Troll on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 08:14:59 PM EST

It's the same in music. George Enescu wrote some fucking amazing music that manages to completely erase the distinction between folk culture and high art, and he gets 0 references in Grout/Palisca. Meanwhile, Boulez has his own ministry in the French government.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]
-1: WTF? (1.50 / 2) (#81)
by Funk 49 on Tue May 24, 2005 at 05:19:52 PM EST

mention of "naked lunch" but no mention of "steely dan"??

I also didn't mention (none / 0) (#82)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 05:32:50 PM EST

Lou Reed, Patti Smith, Tom Waits, The Velvet Underground, Ministry, The Mark Inside, Interzone, or the millions of other influenced artists in the past 30 years.

That article would be far longer and I don't want to write that one.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Who cares about those other things. (none / 1) (#83)
by Funk 49 on Tue May 24, 2005 at 05:35:00 PM EST

We are talking about GAS POWERED DILDOs and AWESOME MUSIC here.

[ Parent ]
Also (none / 1) (#84)
by Funk 49 on Tue May 24, 2005 at 05:35:54 PM EST

lou reed sucks.

[ Parent ]
Well, on that, and on Steely Dan (none / 0) (#85)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 05:52:16 PM EST

we agree.  My favorite is 'Annandale.' (Is that the name?)

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

"My Old School" is the name (none / 1) (#86)
by Funk 49 on Tue May 24, 2005 at 05:56:54 PM EST

The one where he was smoking with the boys upstairs when he heard about the whole affair?

I remember reading about the lyrics to that song. The bit about being in the county jail with the working girls is actually a reference to a famous drug bust in Annondale (near Bard, where Donald Fagen and that other guy... Walter Becker (?) ... attended school) in the late 60s and 70s.

They play that song at William And Mary every graduation.

[ Parent ]

That's it. (none / 0) (#87)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 07:52:49 PM EST

I have their box set, but my brother ripped it for me, so everything runs together and I don't know the titles of any songs.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Well, Section despite (none / 0) (#88)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue May 24, 2005 at 10:15:59 PM EST

an overwhelming call for FP, but I can't complain, since a lot more people wanted it dead.  Bastards.

A few days till part 2, kids.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.

Congrats Egil NT (none / 1) (#91)
by shinnin on Wed May 25, 2005 at 03:22:12 AM EST



[ Parent ]
It was the drugs... (none / 1) (#92)
by mikelist on Wed May 25, 2005 at 05:47:44 AM EST

...that tied Bill to the hippies, since no other significant segment of Westerners (likely readers) approved of drug use at the time. Not to say it has changed very much since then. I thought his focus on homosexual images (what popular band was named for an object in NL?) was the overriding theme at the time I read it.

Steely Dan (nt) (none / 0) (#95)
by zImage on Wed May 25, 2005 at 11:36:28 AM EST



[ Parent ]
I realize the Tarzan books weren't... (none / 0) (#104)
by jmzero on Wed May 25, 2005 at 03:58:17 PM EST

...great literary triumphs like this porn one you're talking about - but you can't just pretend they don't exist.  They're like his defining feature.  A lot of young people now are only familiar with Tarzan through the Pixar movie and the TV show with the blond girl and the dinosaur beastmaster (AND ALL THAT OTHER STUFF THAT WASN'T IN THE BOOKS) - they should know where these things came from originally and were awesome.  Tarzan  - IF it had been done faithfully - would have been better than Xena.  
.
"Let's not stir that bag of worms." - my lovely wife
You're joking right? (3.00 / 2) (#106)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Wed May 25, 2005 at 06:56:48 PM EST

Just in case you're not: William S. Burroughs is not the same person as Edgar Rice Burroughs, the guy that made up Tarzan.  Having not read Tarzan, I can't make any statements about his work.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Porn Book! (none / 1) (#112)
by LadyChatnoire on Thu May 26, 2005 at 02:27:44 AM EST

Reminds me of that Simpson's episode, when Bart gets a fake ID and all the boys go to see Naked Lunch. Exiting the theatre, one of them says, dejectedly, "I can think of at least two things wrong with that movie."

[ Parent ]
Much of the ranting is mislead, (none / 0) (#155)
by crustacean on Thu May 26, 2005 at 06:01:51 PM EST

I think. -Not everyone who does drugs becomes an 'artist'. -Not every 'artist' who does drugs become a great (or even good) artist. -Not every 'artist' does drugs. I have been giving this some thought and believe that any 'artistic' pursuit is pretty much a combination of three general talents: Vision, Skill and Discipline. And of these three, discipline may be the most important. The use/abuse of drugs can lead to great 'visions' / 'deep thoughts', but these can also be attained by meditation, contemplation, religious ecstasy or pure talent. Translating vision into comprehensible pictures, sentences, macrame, or whatever takes some skill, hand-eye coordination and knowledge. Regularly taking your vision, putting it into words, images, widgets, polygons, etcetera takes discipline. Some people write for eight hours a day, like it were a nine to five; others less so, even if they have great skill and vision. My point being: Commentators have been listing certain artists/writers as drunks or junkies but the ones we all know about had the (varying) skill and discipline to create the works that we can argue about, decades and centuries later. The greatest visions attained by real "Shamans" of the old traditions and the greatest LSD "trippers" of the 1960's are lost to us, because they lacked the skill or discipline to tell the rest of us what it was like. The fact that all this brouhaha (sp?) has been generated by WSB points to the fact that great art can come from drugs, but not all drugs produce great art.

Will take to the forest before the oil overlords annex Canada.
Yeah, I don't think I said (none / 0) (#158)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu May 26, 2005 at 08:46:05 PM EST

any of that, though.  That was a thread below.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Yeah, (none / 1) (#162)
by crustacean on Fri May 27, 2005 at 03:03:00 AM EST

misplaced comment. Sorry
Will take to the forest before the oil overlords annex Canada.
[ Parent ]
actually (none / 0) (#171)
by JohnLamar on Fri May 27, 2005 at 02:15:38 PM EST

drugs keep me from posting witty comments on K5 because I forget them before...

what was I saying?


The worst thing you've ever seen
[ Parent ]

The Sad, But Interesting Truth About Naked Lunch and William S. Burroughs | 193 comments (177 topical, 16 editorial, 0 hidden)
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