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Coping with Childhood Sexual Abuse

By SocratesGhost in Culture
Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 03:05:56 AM EST
Tags: Focus On... (all tags)
Focus On...

If you are like me, you already begin forming comments as soon as you see the title of an article. Before you do in this case, please do not think I do this to seek pity or comfort. Seeking pity is an indulgence for which I have never acquired the taste. Comfort can only come from within and is not to be demanded from strangers on a chatboard.

Instead, this is simply an unhappy story. I am not a victim--a person whose car was stolen 20 years ago continuing to claim victimhood begins to wear thin. I am not a survivor--in my day to day life I do more than survive and the imagery of someone hanging onto the flotsam after the sinking of the Titanic, this doesn't exactly describe my condition. Also, this experience does not define me. It has had its impact, sure. But I am the response to this situation and not to be identified with the situation itself.


I will write about this topic only this time. And after speaking, I promise that I will never intrude in your world this way again and I would ask the same consideration in return when you see me speak on other topics. But enough preface...

Statistics indicate that 1 in 10 men suffered childhood sexual abuse. For women, the number is as high as 1 in 3. 90% of all prostitutes were molested as children. There's reason to believe that these numbers are underestimations. The overwhelming majority of these cases did not come from the stranger in the playground with candy. There are too few vans that surveil the children walking home from elementary school. Most abuses occur in the home and we squirm at the real word under fancy objective sounding phrases like "childhood sexual abuse" instead of using the more familiar name: incest.

For me, it was my stepbrother and I could not have been ten yet. He had four more years and his name is Michael. Not long afterward a neighbor kid, also named Michael, did the same. In both cases, these were not single events but repeated over the years until my mother and stepfather divorced sometime while I was in Junior High School.

Part of the circumstances that permitted this was my parents divorce when I was three. For many years, I was a latch-key kid; my father lived four states away and while my single mother worked, my older brother became the man of the house even though he was only four years older. Being a child with adult responsibilities, he could not be expected to manage his duties well. He frequently applied physical abuse whenever I didn't do what he asked. If I told mom, the next day the beatings would be worse. I learned to keep my mouth shut.

When my mother remarried, this reinforced our familial omerta. I wasn't even aware she was dating anyone and when I was at my father's house during the summer break from school, I received a phone call with the news that I now had a stepfather and a stepbrother. My brother got to keep his room and I had to share mine with Michael who I had met only once before.

You may have an idea of what my family is like in your head but here is how it may have appeared to our neighbors: My mother was a strong, independent, educated woman who could not maintain a relationship with her equally strong willed husband during the heady times of the 1970's and the Women's Liberation Movement. She managed an office of employees, owned her own four bedroom house in a quiet bedroom community far outside of the Los Angeles Unified School District (and all of its problems). On weekends, she enjoyed landscaping the front yard or remodeling the house while my brother and I played in the pool in the backyard with some of the kids from the neighborhood. She loved to talk about her decision to use Saint Augustine grass on the front lawn or how the Steuben crystal vase was similar to the one that President Reagan had given to the Prime Minister in France. My brother and I got good grades and stayed out of trouble. Books were in abundance and we frequently entertained guests. My father was a scientist and during these years held tenure as a university physics professor. I cannot say much for his circumstances at the time because he lived far away and the events didn't happen under his watch. Either way, when we think about the circumstances that could lead to incest, I'm not sure we would necessarily consider every tenth house in the suburbs. Years after it happened to me, I still had the impression that it is what happens with rednecks, poor people, or alcoholic fathers and that my own experience was an isolated oddity. I am coming to learn that this is not the case.

I am now 33 and had never before sought help on this. A few months back I was having difficulty with work. I was having a hard time getting motivated and was filled with a lot of self doubt about my ability to complete my job, even though the work I was doing was completely within my expertise. As a business owner, I can't afford to let my guard down and I definitely cannot afford to let my clients see me this way. As a result, I would make a mistake and beat myself up about it inside. This would distract me enough that I would make another mistake and I would beat myself up worse. And then another, and then another and then another. Clinically, what I experience is probably called depression but I wouldn't call myself depressed; I'm too angry and disappointed in myself to be depressed. I'm not suicidal; I just know that I can do better. The problem is, I don't do better since I've drained myself of any gumption through the constant repetition of giving and getting beatings from myself.

So, like any good Californian, I got myself a therapist. I've never hid from myself the fact that I was molested. It simply was an event that happened in my past. I've always been above average in brightness, so whenever I found myself in certain circumstances, I would consider whether my own history was influencing my action. So, for example, if I was having a problem in a relationship, I would think to myself, "Is this the molestation speaking?" Because my guard was always up, I thought I could defeat whatever possible influence it could have had. It was probably for this reason that I disregarded it as a source for my problems at work. I had already discounted it. After all, we could expect it to have an influence in inter-personal relationships and sexuality. But at work? No, there must be some other reason.

So, after more than month in therapy, on Wednesday I asked my therapist for a diagnosis: "Self sabotage behavior related to molestation as a child in the absence of a protective male adult influence."

Sometimes, the most obvious answer is the one we least want to hear.

For the rest of this diary, I'm going to be a bit selfish in the sense that I'm no longer going to be speaking to you, the K5 audience. I'm speaking to myself. Armchair psychologists may find value in it, so much the better. If you have experienced similar childhood trauma and want to seek help, there are excellent books on the topic: Victims No Longer by Michael Lew treats specifically the issue of male sexual abuse and Courage to Heal by Ellen Bass and Laura Davis was (and still is) the groundbreaking book for women; both books have enough material for either gender. I would recommend them for solutions before thinking what follows are insights or solutions for your own case. Besides, I'm far from being "solved" and your own case deserves its own consideration.

There are several problems with molestation in the home. When the family turns hostile, to whom can a child turn for explanation and protection? In my own case, I have no closeness to my family. As a child, I was vulnerable and they failed me. Simple negligence did not permit it to happen. We lived inside a dynamic that willful discouraged pleas for help. While others read Atlas Shrugged or the Fountainhead and become enamoured of the idea of receiving the full reward of your responsibilities, I was not seduced by any such greed but by a hero who springs fully formed into the world, unfettered with the burden of family. Does Howard Roark have a dad? Who is John Galt's mom? We don't know and we are told romantically that it is unimportant to know. The Randian model of the family satisfied me in that it was a model built of duty and not of love. That was something that I could understand but took me down a dead end alley philosophically for which I'll never forgive Ayn (or the Michaels).

But to return to the original clue, while I feel distant from my own parents, I long for children of my own and pray that they are not as distant from me as I am from my own family. Yet, my girlfriend says that I am distant.

And further, the statistics scare the hell out of me. Predation causes predation; almost no child molestor was unmolested. Because I've been molested, I share a background that in others encouraged them to cause pain. I have no temptation to similarly harm others, but if 50 kids from a particular school go on to be mass murderers we look more closely at every kid who went to that school, and so I look at my own background with concern.

And I do tend to worry because I can be so unempathic to the hurt that I can cause others, particularly when I feel threatened. Sometimes, when my girlfriend and I fight, I can be a dirty fighter. At some point, I stop trying to win and start trying to hurt her. Even when she says stop, I can continue.

But how does all of this relate to a self-defeating perfectionism? Easily: I need to be in control. As long as I control my circumstances, nothing can happen to me. And because I consider myself in control of my surroundings, nothing happens to me unless I permit it. When I fight with my girlfriend, it's not her fault; the breakdown was my mistake and it was in my power to fight or not. When some software that I've written doesn't work, the bug I introduced is an example of a character flaw: I should have known better than to allow a "divide by 0" error. When I got into a car accident 2 years ago, that was my fault too: I should have been heading to work instead of stopping for coffee and that's what allowed the girl to T-bone me. My laptop was stolen from my car; it was my fault for leaving it in there, no crime was committed except that of me tempting someone else; the thief is the real victim here. Some of this is exaggeration, but there's an element of guilt and obligation in everything that happens in my life. Even now, I expect the K5 trolls to be... well... trollish about this topic but it was my willingness to be open about this topic that permits them to be who they are. It's a selfish view, maybe. But then again, this was a strategy that allowed me to get through my circumstances so I have my reasons for dealing with things in these emotional terms although intellectually I allow that it is the opposite. Allow. Interesting word choice.

There's a part of me that is afraid to heal, if it can be called healing. If my coping mechanisms have helped me to be where I am at now, will healing rid me of them? If so, will I be worse off?

Maybe, but probably not. Look at it this way, Paul, maybe you'll learn to stop hating yourself. Isn't that worth the effort?

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Coping with Childhood Sexual Abuse | 419 comments (355 topical, 64 editorial, 0 hidden)
the moment between (2.83 / 6) (#2)
by aphrael on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 04:38:29 PM EST

The moment, the instant of turning, between fighting to win and fighting to hurt is an easy one to miss. Sometimes when Jared and I fight, I find myself lashing out, bitter, angry, trying to hurt --- not trying to hurt him as an individual, just trying to hurt whoever it is that is causing me pain.

It's a base, animal instinct that we all have ... but people who have been exposed to severe emotional stress a child find it harder to control. The fear is so much stronger.

well...i think (1.07 / 26) (#3)
by ratten on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 04:41:55 PM EST

maybe if they had killed you they would have ended the chain of rape. that or at least prevented your horrible punctuation.

Fucking BURNED [nt] (none / 0) (#377)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:22:34 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Thank you for your story (3.00 / 9) (#5)
by Sgt York on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 04:49:06 PM EST

Thanks for posting this.

I work with kids a bit, and I was shocked when I first encountered a case similar to yours. I didn't expect to encounter it at all. I live in an affluent, eduacted, normal suburban community. It's Anytown, USA. But, my God, the stories I've heard.

Three kids in about four years have confided in me about their molestation. None are in direct danger any longer. They have left that home, the criminal is in jail, or has left for somewhere. But the scars are still there. And I know I will see it again.

With your hindsight and memory, what advice would you give these kids (the three I mentioned)? If you could talk to one, what would you say? What kind of things do they need to hear, to know? Every kid is different, I know, but if you had had someone to open up to about it back then, what would you have wanted them to say or do? If a kid approached you with a similar story today, how would you want to handle it?

These are so hard to deal with; you tell the kids they can tell you anything, and that it's completely confidential, you'll never tell anyone, and they hit you with, "My dad sneaks into my room every night and crawls into bed with me, and my mom is pissed because he's rejecting her". The term "homicidal rage" takes on a very real and personal meaning. It is simply not possible to stand by and do anything short of everything possible.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.

Words fail (3.00 / 6) (#10)
by SocratesGhost on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 05:29:03 PM EST

I wish it could be like Good Will Hunting, where a psychologist repeats, "It's not your fault. No, really, it's not your fault." and that's what snaps him out of it. The problem is that authority fails these children and when the most important authority fails in the childs life (family) the betrayal is enormous.

So, from the perspective of a child: "Here's a father who TV, school, church, and everything indicates is supposed to protect us. That's a lie. Well, here's a teacher who TV, school... Here's a policeman... Here's a wife..." It amazes me that kids come forward at all. I couldn't. Our greatest fear should be that those kids are likely just the tip of the iceberg.

Every case is different, but it couldn't hurt for the child to know that not all people or families are like this. And not just told this, but be witness to it and come to really believe it. Broken trust is among the more prolonged and damaging aspects to incest. I'd say restoring that trust is probably vital.

Otherwise, they'll look at a family comedy show with distrust and say, "No family is anything like that. In reality, nobody loves Raymond."

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
Exactly (3.00 / 4) (#13)
by aphrael on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 05:53:14 PM EST

So, from the perspective of a child: "Here's a father who TV, school, church, and everything indicates is supposed to protect us. That's a lie. Well, here's a teacher who TV, school... Here's a policeman... Here's a wife..." It amazes me that kids come forward at all

That's precisely it. And it's not just incest that will do it; severe physical or emotional abuse will as well.

[ Parent ]

Bait and switch (3.00 / 3) (#19)
by Sgt York on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 06:44:02 PM EST

I've heard that same sentiment, although it took me a little while to realize where they were coming from. "Why the hell should I trust you?". It has a completely different meaning coming from one of these kids.
And not just told this, but be witness to it and come to really believe it.
That explains a lot of things, like when the kids come out of their shells, and how. And how they act later. I always thought that they did the things they did because they wanted a normal family to be a part of. But now I don't think that's it.

Maybe they just want to touch it to make sure it's real.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

Coming forward (none / 1) (#240)
by Rubiconster on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 05:11:21 AM EST

"It amazes me that kids come forward at all. I couldn't."

Why couldn't you?  Is it because sex is viewed with shame and these so called victims need to be imprisoned by socieity's views of sexual conduct as shameful?

Your statement simply reinforces the shame idea and further harms people who had sexual relations not of their triggering.

Rubiconster.

[ Parent ]

Nobody does love Raymond, that show sucks. [nt] (none / 1) (#389)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:50:53 PM EST



[ Parent ]
#97 (none / 0) (#98)
by schrotie on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 10:04:50 PM EST

A self-help group helped me. See my comment.

[ Parent ]
Molestation (none / 1) (#238)
by Rubiconster on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 05:03:50 AM EST

"Three kids in about four years have confided in me about their molestation."

Who labeled it molestation, you or them?  By using that term you necessarily create victims out of them even if they were not harmed before, the process of viewing themselves as victims / 'damaged goods' does harm itself.

Perhaps instead of forcing kids into years of 'thearpy' in which it seems they are told for years on end that sex is evil and bad and that they should be feel great shame for what happened to them perhaps a better solution would be: "Sex and sexuality is normal but you have the right not to participate in things you do not like and it is ok if you feel happy that this happened, and also not happy as the case maybe, what do you think?".

Rubiconster

[ Parent ]

Personal distinction (3.00 / 2) (#271)
by Sgt York on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:58:36 AM EST

In each case, it was not consensual, occured at a young age, and caused great psychological trauma prior to when I got involved. These are not kids that simply had a relationship with an older person, these are people that were raped. I've dealt with both sets, and others. There is a definate difference.

Two of them personally labeled it as rape when they breached the subject, and the other couldn't bring himself to say any word with any sexual connotation (he used gestures and facial expressions).

These kids are in fact taught just the opposite of what you are saying. For years, the have felt shame imposed by the criminal or by themselves. I (along with friends, therapists, etc) have had to try to convince them that sex is not necessarily a bad thing (as they currently believe), but when it's with two people in a relationship, it's an incredibly good thing.

In my experience, they start off feeling like damaged goods, like a victim, like they are worthless and that sex is a terrible thing that should always be hidden. This is a big part of the molestation; the molestor does it very intentionally out of self-preservation. My role, and the role of the other (infinitely more qualified) people involved is to undo this damage. It is psychologically very dangerous to think of sex as a bad thing.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

Distinctions made (none / 1) (#312)
by Rubiconster on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 06:47:04 PM EST

"caused great psychological trauma"

Is there always necessarily psychyological trauma, like if I were 8 and suddenly someone put my penis, if I indeed currently have a penis ;), in their mouth (that person being adult or child)? What will happen, it will fall off, or what tell me the harm.  

Seems much of the trauma comes from the resulting police investigation and shame made to feel about such a behavior. What am i suppose to think as an 8 year old about sexuality if there is so much greif involved surrounding someone 'kissing my dick'?

"These are not kids that simply had a relationship with an older person, these are people that were raped."

I am glad there is a distinction made as it seems it is possible that a child could engage in, and even initiate, sexual activity willingly which would appear not to be rape in the sense of forced sexual behavior.  

"Two of them personally labeled it as rape when they breached the subject, and the other couldn't bring himself to say any word with any sexual connotation (he used gestures and facial expressions)."

No doubt rape, in the sense of forcing someone who  does not want to engage in any way shape or form, exists with children.  However, it would appear that it is easy so very easy for something that would have been nonhamful in and of itself to become harmful after the fact when a person is convinced to view it as such.

This change in perspective may come because of a police investigation, or perhaps it comes from the look of disgust across someone's face when a person tells another that they had engaged in sexual activity, they are looked at with disgust and are made to feel shame and feel like they are damaged goods.

"I (along with friends, therapists, etc) have had to try to convince them that sex is not necessarily a bad thing (as they currently believe), but when it's with two people in a relationship, it's an incredibly good thing."

What do you mean two people in a relationship? Could there not exist somewhere at sometime a truly loving [sexual?] relationship that happens to be between two people of different ages, perhaps even adult child?  

As you say it depends on the circumstances but I doubt it would be possible, unless the person is of the utter most resolve, to be able to fight the role of victim that society wants to put on them and instead say they liked it.  They would be labeled a pervert or worse, so much easier to be a victim and be pitied it would seem then be hated and alone.

"In my experience, they start off feeling like damaged goods, like a victim, like they are worthless and that sex is a terrible thing that should always be hidden. "

Where do they get this idea that they should feel that sex is a terrible thing, especially among children were there is a generallack of experience and knowledge about the subject?  Seems like they get that idea from society, from you, from me, from anyone who thinks that saying the word penis, sex or intercourse in a public area should make them blush - be ashamed.

The very fact that you believe that sexual activity is in need of (years?) therapy signals that you think that sex is so harmful that only you, or others like you, can fix it. I however applaud your willingness to discuss this issue as hopefully people, like you I believe, want to help others.

Rubiconster

[ Parent ]

OK (none / 1) (#327)
by Sgt York on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 01:40:50 AM EST

Let's get something clear : I am talking about THREE SPECIFIC PEOPLE HERE. I'm not talking about any universal truth, just three kids that I know. They were each severely affected by what happened to them. One guy was so ashamed of everything that he could not even say any word with a sexual connotation. This was because he was told by the abuser that what they were doing was secret, and the rest of the world would not understand, so they must not ever let anyone know. He (the abuser) made references to Frankenstein's monster, being turned into a monster by societies misconceptions about him. This should answer you other question as well. They get the idea from the abuser, who is afraid of getting caught.

you believe that sexual activity is in need of (years?) therapy

Ummm....when did I say that? I said that it can be damaging. Much like electricity can be damaging.

OK, Now I'll get mnore universal.

The problem is that the sex drive is an incredibly powerful force in the human brain*. The reward pathways are quite influential and are often linked in odd ways. This is a byproduct of evoloution. A child's brain is set up to use the same reward pathways (yes, the same ones; it's more efficient) to encourage certain survival behaviors (staying with parents, food, warmth seeking and clinging). Upon puberty, these are rewired (in a sense) to reward sexual behavior. It's Darwinian. Evolution favors the organism that is able to reach childbearing age and then have lots of kids. Therefore, encouraging these behaviors at the proper time is a benefit.

This is (partly) why puberty has such psychological impact, and why during/after puberty kids want to break from their parents. The rewards are gone.

Fucking with these pathways is exceptionally dangerous and harmful. This is not opinion, this is a fact of biochemistry. (and yes, IAAB)

*And since you seem to have a problem getting this, let me make it abundantly clear. Powerful does NOT mean evil. Powerful can be good, and powerful can be bad. There is absolutely no moral connotation to the word "powerful" in my mind. Please attach no moral connotation based on the use of that word. Problem is also a word lacking moral connotation. It simply means that there is an additional level of complexity.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

I question your neurology... (none / 1) (#345)
by Jazu on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 07:30:54 PM EST

A child's brain is set up to use the same reward pathways (yes, the same ones; it's more efficient) to encourage certain survival behaviors (staying with parents, food, warmth seeking and clinging).

I definitely remember what pre-sexuality felt like, and it never got used for anything with any bearing on the real world.

[ Parent ]

A question (none / 0) (#333)
by Viliam Bur on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 08:11:07 AM EST

Rubiconster, I see you have created a special account for participating in this topic. After reading all your 8 (at the moment of writing this text) comments, I have a feeling that there is some statement you are trying to say. But instead of saying it openly, you just reply to someone's text and insert questions... and it seems to me like most of these questions are going to the same point.

(#236) "Could it be that the this therapist, like most (all?), therapists believe that sexual activity at an early age is necessarily bad and thus you had to view yourself as a victim and also 'damaged goods'. It is society that makes it so you these 'victims' need to feel ashamed since sex is 'shameful' it seems I believe."
(#238) "Who labeled it molestation, you or them? By using that term you necessarily create victims out of them even if they were not harmed before, the process of viewing themselves as victims / 'damaged goods' does harm itself."
(#240) "Is it because sex is viewed with shame and these so called victims need to be imprisoned by socieity's views of sexual conduct as shameful?"
(#312) "However, it would appear that it is easy so very easy for something that would have been nonhamful in and of itself to become harmful after the fact when a person is convinced to view it as such. [...] Where do they get this idea that they should feel that sex is a terrible thing, especially among children were there is a generallack of experience and knowledge about the subject?"
(#320) "What is so horrific about the detail, were they severely physically abused or just the act of sexuality activity is 'horrific' to you?"

I am not sure if I get it right (it would be useful if instead of questions you would write a longer text about what your opinion on the topic is), but it seems to me that you are trying to suggest that there is mostly nothing wrong about sexual activities with children - and it is actually the society with its opinion about what is right and wrong for children that causes the bad feelings in children. The (so-called) abusers do not harm the child; only the therapists who say to child that is was wrong to be sexually used by an adult person create the feelings of shame afterwards. Without the society suggesting that something terrible happened, these children would be probably OK and happy with their experiences. Do I get it right?

In case I understand it right, please read again the comments, and try to understand what is written in them. IMHO it is obvious from the text that the mentioned children felt threatened at the moment of sexual abuse. If they would have the power to prevent it, they would. Not because of worries what would society think about it (most of them never planned to tell anyone), but because it felt unpleasant at the moment. When children participate in other activities forbidden by society for minors but considered normal for adults - e.g. drinking, smoking, etc - it does not generate similar feelings and problems.

So again... what is it exactly that you are trying to say?

[ Parent ]

He's trying to say (none / 1) (#336)
by An onymous Coward on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 09:30:11 AM EST

he thinks it's fine for him to have sex with kids, and that pesky society should shut up about it :P

"Your voice is irrelevant. Stop embarrassing yourself. Please." -stuaart
[ Parent ]
Sex (none / 0) (#316)
by schrotie on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 07:13:38 PM EST

For me sex was never a problem at all. I am sure though that it would be a hell of a problem if I were gay so that I would have to engage in the same practices that happened during the rape. I don't even ever had the slightest problem with oral sex (either way). Though with another guy I assume it would be traumatic for me.

I may be an exception, but then maybe not. It might be very important how the actual practices that happen during a rape relate to those that the victim would itself practice according to his or her sexual orientation. Maybe other victims really have a problem with sex in general. Maybe you should do some research on that. Maybe simple escape routes from the sex trap can be found by circumventing the given practices and - if necessary - later confront them in some way.

I do fear though, that women are very different from men in that regard. And some of the guys from the self help group had severe issues with sex (though at least one of them had suffered far beyond what I would have believed people can survive).

[ Parent ]

Indirect Effects of Sexual Abuse (3.00 / 9) (#12)
by mberteig on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 05:50:45 PM EST

At one point I was in a romantic relationship with an individual who had been very severly abused as a baby, child and teen.  Suffice it to say, our relationship was exceptionally difficult since this person had not yet "healed".  All aspects of the relationship: physical, emotional, intellectual and spiritual were predominantly disfunctional.  My own background is relatively healthy.  My parents are divorced which has caused me some emotional trouble, but no abuse, physical, sexual or emotional in my past.  Even so, I was not able to be healthy enough for the both of us.  I suffered a nervous breakdown, and alienated all of my good friends and family... pretty much exclusively as a result of trying to "be there" for this other person.  Unfortunately, the demands made on me by this person were extremely excessive and unhealthy.


Abuse doesn't just hurt the person abused.  In my case, it hurt me, my family and my friends.




Agile Advice - How and Why to Work Agile
You are weak (1.11 / 17) (#40)
by tweetsybefore on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 02:58:40 AM EST

seriously You are pathetic and clingy, You could leave at any time, but you made yourself a victim by staying with the bitch.

I'm racist and I hate niggers.
[ Parent ]
Yer an ass (3.00 / 3) (#43)
by momocrome on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:31:41 AM EST

or else you are in the same boat, struggling with your own clingy weakness.

naw, yer just an ass.

"Give a wide berth to all that foam and spray." - - Lucian, The Way to Write History
[ Parent ]

Quite Possibly (3.00 / 2) (#47)
by mberteig on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:22:35 AM EST

Weakness is of course relative.  I was relatively weak compared to this person in the aspect of emotional and social manipulation.  However, there were things in my personal life that I was choosing to act upon which also kept me in the relationship longer than healthy.  It was a toxic (and in retrospect) interesting combination of factors both in and out of my own control that led to it being such a bad relationship.  Suffice it to say, I learned an awful lot from it.


Agile Advice - How and Why to Work Agile
[ Parent ]
I venture to guess (3.00 / 3) (#131)
by destroy all monsters on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 08:35:09 AM EST

that a piece of it was actually wanting to help your SO. Some people really know how to take advantage of a person's desire to genuinely help others.

Junkies and certain kinds of women in particular.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

My beef is with the words "abuse" (2.40 / 5) (#15)
by 1318 on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 05:55:27 PM EST

I applaud your article but I am reminded of a recent piece I read on attempting to ascertain valid statistics on child "abuse". I say "abuse" in quotes because abuse implies violence, but the term is used simply to connote that the child in question was not of reasonable consent/legal age.

It is also used to condition the topic with moral outrage or legal condemnation. But this seems wholly unnecessary as no reasonable person in the public realm of discourse that I am aware of condones sexual relations with children. Therefore adult-child sexual relations are morally indefensible and the term "child sexual abuse" implies violent sexual assault which it may or may not accurately describe.

Thus it represents a technical misuse of the term "abuse" when what is not being described is abuse but rather a condition of a lack of (technical/legal) consent.

Child "molestation" may use methods of deception and reward (which are still illegal/unethical) which don't involve or imply threats, coercion or force which "abuse" implies.

So don't get me wrong, and it is definitely worth discussion, but if you can understand how attempting to describe something that is morally wrong with a term that implies a topology of violent action can produce imprecise descriptive conditions (esp. for social scientists).

Perhaps you were simply looking for a way to vent or encourage discussion on this topic and, if so, I wish you well.

That's my two cents and I'll leave it at that.

"So then, why don't you die?"-Antisthenes

If I can take a stab (3.00 / 5) (#17)
by SocratesGhost on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 06:13:38 PM EST

Let me disabuse you of the notion of abuse. Oops, no one will be taking their fists to the phrase. Instead let me see if I can avoid doing violence to the term... Damn, caught again.

Semantics aside, the abuse is psychological. If you think no harm is done, I'd suggest that you really haven't looked into the long term effects from children that go this.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
IAWTP abuse!= "violence". n/t (3.00 / 2) (#31)
by livus on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 10:32:23 PM EST



---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
There is violence, though. It comes from... (3.00 / 8) (#35)
by fyngyrz on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 11:57:34 PM EST

...society. A child who has had a sexual experience outed -- of any kind, these days -- will have innumerable contacts with (well-meaning, I think) adults who will make absolutely certain that the child knows that something terrible happened to him or her, and that it was so terrible that the perpetrator should be locked away for years and listed on a list of "sexual terrorists" for the rest of their days.

Those harm-causing adults will include family members with issues other than the child's welfare first and foremost in their minds. Professional metaphor-grinders from the p-shrink community like the "therapist" featured so prominently in this very Kuro5hin article. People from their circle of friends. A whole bunch of folks who have no legitimate involvement, whose claim to fame is being a member of a back-fence gossip ring or the modern equivalent. Of course, we mustn't forget the regular shrieks from the media and the politicians, those bottom feeders on the detritus of our daily lives. They work together to make sure one never forgets one is a victim, society's most unfortunate mental cripple.

Post-event, ad infinitum, society -- no, let's just say people -- will treat these children differently, specifically they will modify their behavior and speech around them. When (naturally enough) those "victims" later bring the issue up as teenagers and adults, the same thing happens, only in a more adult context which means it then can directly and topically affect their current sexuality and other personal interactions.

And why wouldn't an adult or teenager bring up such an issue? It was probably one of the most noticeable events in their childhood, thanks to society's highlighting, assuming that it wasn't a violent or physically damaging encounter. If it was, of course, then it'll be that much worse.

I would agree with your analysis as far as it goes, but you can't discount the effect well meaning "oh-my-gawd" folk have when they slap their moronic, histrionic cheeks. I think it is quite fair to describe it as violent and damaging.

Stepping (a little) away from children specifically, one can turn one's ears back to the music that was popular in the fifties (as in top 40) and without hardly searching at all listen to music that extolls the virtues of some 20-or-so guy hanging with a 13-year old or some such combination that would get the older party extensive jail time and a permanent entry on the "pervert" list today. The bottom line is that there was no problem with consensual sex with very large age differentials that extended into the very minimal teens until it was made into a problem.

This is just one of society's many self-destructive and stupid behaviors. I'm 50. My sweetheart's father (who, amusingly, was a lawyer) and mother were of very different ages, and her mother was early teens when they were married. Today, we'd arrest the man. But the relationship lasted until he died -- she never re-married -- he took wonderful care of her and they had great, healthy, beautiful and intelligent children. No problems at all anywhere in the family or personal dynamic. Mom is still around, and she's tres' cool, let me tell you. Hardly a "ruined personality" or a "traumatized individual", she serves as a far better example for young people than society's current crop of divorce-ridden, moralizing, self-important religious wackos.

A great deal of people's sexual problems today seem to me to be society's fault based on simplistic moral and ethical positions, and not actually (or at least directly) related to sexuality at all. These problems don't seem likely to go away unless the pendulum swings back away from the current hysteria.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Blog, Photos.
[ Parent ]

0, encourages pedophilia! (none / 0) (#166)
by Harvey Anderson on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 11:23:23 AM EST

Just kidding. Good post.

[ Parent ]
Interesting post (none / 0) (#241)
by Rubiconster on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 05:21:00 AM EST

Usually I cannot, or do not have the time, to find the most effective way of communicating my ideas here but you've done an excellent job.  I agree with the idea that a lot of the harm comes from society, and society's views, of children who have engaged in sexual activity weather by their own initiation with other children (or adults) or with adults in general.

"Stepping (a little) away from children specifically, one can turn one's ears back to the music that was popular in the fifties (as in top 40) and without hardly searching at all listen to music that extolls the virtues of some 20-or-so guy hanging with a 13-year old or some such combination that would get the older party extensive jail time and a permanent entry on the "pervert" list today."

Was there really such songs? It would be interesting to get a listing of them, revisionist history is making the idea that this is possible, let alone happened, hard to realize.

Rubiconster

[ Parent ]

Sure. (none / 1) (#305)
by fyngyrz on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 04:51:34 PM EST

Start with Gary Puckett's "Young Girl" from (I think) the sixties, a song that talks about an age difference, trickery on the part of the girl and the longing on the part of the guy. That's somewhere around the beginning of the politically correct stuff. Then work back into the fifties. There are lots of songs like that. One way to get Google to choke up with this stuff is include key words like young and girl and or a "teen" number such as "thirteen", "fourteen", that kind of thing. Also use the word lyrics which helps turn up songs instead of irrelevant stuff. It's not too hard to find -- no one is "hiding" this stuff, it's just old and unless you listen to 50's music, or you're older (like myself) you have no experience with it or reason to think it would exist.

Aside from that, if you study history of the US for the 1800's and earlier, you'll find that the age of marriage was often quite a bit lower than we assume is "normal" today for the girl, not so much for the fellow. For various reasons, some of them quite practical. Without arguing specific merits, I'd simply point out that it neither destroyed the country nor dumped the moral rectitude of the times into the crapper. It was a different way of doing things, true enough, but hardly the evil society makes it out to be today.

It wasn't just rock and roll, either. See if you can find the lyrics to "young but daily growing", that's an interesting one, as the guy was the young one. Folk, if memory serves (it may not, I'm old. :)


Blog, Photos.
[ Parent ]

Thanks for sharing (2.83 / 6) (#18)
by LilDebbie on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 06:40:35 PM EST

I mean that honestly, and for selfish reasons.

Allow me to give you some advice on control. I fancy myself an expert on the subject. Now, I gather you consider your compulsion for control to be a character flaw, something that's holding you back. What you must learn is that you can still have control without being in control of your environment. You cannot control your environment, but there is one, and only one, thing you can control: yourself.

Do not think in terms of guilt. Of right and wrong. Phrase situations in terms of correct and incorrect. Instead of saying it's your fault that girl T-boned your car, ask yourself what you could have done differently given the situation. It's important to note that this does *not* mean what you could have done to prevent the immediate ssituation, i.e. your having stopped for coffee instead of going directly to work, but rather what you could and could not have done once you finally noticed a car hurtling towards yours.

Put yourself back in that very moment. At the precise time, was there any action that could have improved the outcome? I'm going to go ahead and guess there isn't, except maybe marginally. Therefore, you acted correctly. Focus on what you can control, yourself.

Another example: when writing this story, you should have capitalized "Randian". You acted incorrectly here, with emphasis on "you". That was within your control. That is something you can change for the better.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

And thanks to the power of "Edit" (none / 1) (#21)
by SocratesGhost on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 06:51:40 PM EST

I've corrected myself.

I've always had a preference for using lower case when proper nouns are put into adjectival form. For example, we would talk about "the philosophy of Socrates". If we invert that to "the Socratic philosophy", somehow it seems stranger to me than simply treating an adjective as an adjective. It just seems like were trying to speak German poorly. To be truly German, though, we would need "the Socratic Philosophy" but that has the problem of us writing like A. A. Milne when he discusses Very Important Things in his book Winnie the Pooh.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
-1 no mention of muh dick (1.02 / 36) (#26)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 09:48:27 PM EST

 

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
Worthy discussion (2.75 / 4) (#27)
by More Whine on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 09:58:49 PM EST

The article isn't perfect, but the topic is something that is rarely discussed on K5 and will provide for great discussion. I'll +1 FP this article because it meets basic standards.

why 'cope' when 'cure' is possible? (1.09 / 11) (#28)
by krkrbt on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 10:15:56 PM EST

So, after more than month in therapy, on Wednesday I asked my therapist for a diagnosis:

Seems to me like you ought to fire your therapist.  Energy Psychology methodology has proven itself to be remarkably effective at permanently resolving difficult psychological traumas.  EFT is probably the best known of the different Energy Psychology disciplines, though there many other offshoots of ... I think TFT was the original.

My path once crossed with a ~24 y.o. girl who was terrified of bees.  She'd been attacked by a swarm when she was ~12 y.o., and twitched with fear whenever she was around flying yellow insects.  I offered to help.  ~15 minutes later (after screwing up a "Fast Phobia Cure", and having her refuse to follow along with the EFT protocol for some silly reason), I realised that I should use Silvia Hartman's Emotrance technique.  2 minutes later, "okay, I guess we're done now", and we return to the late-summer outside gathering (with soda & lots of bees).

She seeks me out a little while later, "look, I got stung!", and she was happy that her phobic response was totally gone.  Two Minutes.  

from http://www.energypsychologyresearch.com/

For example, 105 victims of ethnic violence in Kosovo, after receiving energy psychology treatments from an international team in 2000 over a period of several months (TFT or "Thought Field Therapy" was the primary modality), experienced "complete recovery" (based on self-reports) from the post-traumatic emotional effects of 247 of the 249 memories of torture, rape, and witnessing the massacre of loved ones they had identified (Johnson et al., 2001). Although such anecdotal accounts are scientifically equivocal, their impact on the local community was profound, with the chief medical officer of Kosovo (the equivalent of our Surgeon General), Dr. Skkelzen Syla, stating in a letter of appreciation:

   Many well-funded relief organizations have treated the posttraumatic stress here in Kosovo. Some of our people had limited improvement but Kosovo had no major change or real hope until . . . we referred our most difficult patients to [the international treatment team]. The success from TFT was 100% for every patient, and they are still smiling until this day [and, indeed, in formal follow-ups at an average of five months after the treatment, each was free of relapse].

A number of the early studies in energy psychology that did not qualify for peer-reviewed journal publication (for instance, they may not have addressed all the variables that need to be controlled in formal research or may have relied primarily on the clients' self-reports of improvement rather than more objective measures) nonetheless constitute systematic observation that can be very instructive in assessing a new therapy. For instance, a study that tracked the clinical outcomes of 714 patients treated by seven therapists using Thought Field Therapy (TFT) in an HMO setting found that decreased subjective distress following the treatment was far beyond chance with 31 of 31 psychiatric diagnostic categories, including anxiety, major depression, alcohol cravings, and PTSD (Sakai et al., 2001). Data like this, while not decisive in itself, encourages further experimentation with the method and further research."



Pseudoscience bs doesn't help. [nt] (3.00 / 3) (#30)
by mtrisk on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 10:26:19 PM EST



______
"If you don't like our country, why don't you get out?"
"What, and become a victim of your foreign policy?"
[ Parent ]
Conventional therapy doesn't help in most cases. (2.00 / 3) (#33)
by krkrbt on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 10:48:59 PM EST

If the technique works, who cares if dimwits label it "pseudoscience bs"?


[ Parent ]
bwahaha (3.00 / 5) (#36)
by dhall on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 12:51:21 AM EST

What is it about the word "quantum" that wackos find so interesting?

[ Parent ]
Emotrance... (2.33 / 3) (#71)
by topynate on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 01:07:44 PM EST

a genre I hope will never come to pass.


"...identifying authors with their works is a feckless game. Simply to go by their books, Agatha Christie is a mass murderess, while William Buckley is a practicing Christian." --Gore Vidal
[ Parent ]
Too Late (none / 0) (#394)
by killmepleez on Thu Jul 21, 2005 at 05:08:57 PM EST

I think this would probably qualify. It's just a two minute clip; the whole song is like nine minutes and has been one of my favorite tracks for almost ten years.

__
"I instantly realized that everything in my life that I thought was unfixable was totally fixable - except for having just jumped."
--from "J
[ Parent ]
I think this is an op-ed (2.33 / 6) (#32)
by livus on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 10:38:14 PM EST

because it's All About You.

For that reason I'll abstain, because I'd like a bit more meat than just anecdotal evidence about your own limited experience - "I am now 33 and had never before sought help on this. A few months back" - you basically seem to be a newbie at the whole therapy/coping thing  (which I assume is why you don't make the link that the self sabotage at work constitutes the same "coping mechanism" you're worried about giving up - this is often true of a whole slew of behavioural problems, not just abuse issues - ) so it could've been rounded out with a bit of research.

but I think it's an interesting piece.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

I'm interested to know (none / 1) (#174)
by lostincali on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:27:03 PM EST

what's this self-sabotage as a "coping mechanism."?

It seems highly counterintuitive that hurting yourself in exactly the areas where you want to be safe would be some kind of way of making yourself feel better.

I've heard lots of therapist types discuss it, and it really doesn't make sense to me at all.

If you'd care to fill it out a little more, maybe some of us could understand better ...

"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."
[ Parent ]

It's really bizarre! (3.00 / 4) (#200)
by Harvey Anderson on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 03:35:41 PM EST

I don't know what the deal is.  I think the idea is something like, "I'm being hurt in some way; I am powerless to change this, so if I do it to myself also that will show me that I am sort of in control of it."

You see cutters.  You see how black LA tore itself to pieces when angry, instead of mobbing rich white neighborhoods.  You see girls try to make themselves ugly when things are wrong in their lives.  You see people adopt weird, extreme diets.

[ Parent ]

Well, it's situation specific techniques (3.00 / 2) (#207)
by livus on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 06:51:44 PM EST

which don't work any more out of context. A bit like what happens in Formula one when a driver chose not to switch to wet weather tires before the race and then it rains.

Example 1, if "succeeding" at school in your family meant drawing attention to yourself and then being beaten/abused, you'd learn to limit your visible success.
"If I told mom, the next day the beatings would be worse. I learned to keep my mouth shut." - Socratesghost.
The original goal is to maximise survival, but obviously this would fail later in life in the business world because the rules have changed.

There's all kinds of stuff like that. Chicks often make themselves anorexic when they hit puberty as a defense against getting sexually abused. Goal, make themself unattractive to predators. People who had distant parents sometimes avoid emotional intimacy because they are afraid of feelings of rebuffal and rejection. It seems to come from the same learning patterns that make humans pick up all kinds of effective strategies as well, such as not touching stove elements.

At least, this is how I understand it.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

fascinating. thanks for writing. nt. (3.00 / 2) (#208)
by lostincali on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 08:04:32 PM EST


"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."
[ Parent ]

Have you considered moving to a red state? (1.00 / 13) (#34)
by NaCh0 on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 11:36:38 PM EST

I understand Cali is permissive like Boston.

--
K5: Your daily dose of socialism.
You're just a motherfucking snowflake, aren't you? (1.00 / 30) (#37)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 01:26:01 AM EST

Get over it, asshole.

By the way (1.00 / 29) (#39)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 01:38:55 AM EST

Stop making fucking excuses. Oh, you're not motivated? Oh, you have control problems? So does every other motherfucker out there in the world, dumbass. Open your fucking eyes. The difference between them and you is they fucking take responsibility of themselves and don't make gay little cop-outs like this (even if only to themselves). I'm sure it's nice that you've got this little event of yours that you can blame all your problems on, though. Make everything a neat little package, filed under C for Child Abuse (or is that C for Convenient Excuses?).

Take some fucking responsibility for christ's sake, because this shit is totally pathetic. Wake up, open your eyes, get the fuck over it. I know Oprah has conditioned you to be a pansy ass faggot, but only pansy ass faggots listen to Oprah in the first place. The rest of us live our lives without comforting little crutches like this to keep us going. You DO want pity, you want pity from everyone around you, you want pity from yourself, you want to think your life deserves to be so much easier because you're living with some fucking lameass 'scars' that stop you from stepping up and being in charge of your actual problems. It's all bullshit, my friend.

Coping with childheed sexual abuse isn't about posting emo crap like this on K5. Coping with childhood sexual abuse is about getting the fuck over it, just like every other motherfucker out there who has more balls than you has already done.

Sounds like you have some issues (none / 0) (#56)
by tweet on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 08:00:35 AM EST

What helpful advice. If only SocratesGhost had known it was simply a case of getting "the fuck over it". Aside from the numerous homophobic slurs this is a shocking thing to write in reponse to this article. You should be ashamed of yourself.

_______________________________________________
Not everything in black and white makes sense.

[ Parent ]

No, *you* should be ashamed. (1.00 / 3) (#57)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 08:25:14 AM EST

Your pity and concern is exactly what enables his pathetic behavior.

[ Parent ]
And the internet.. (3.00 / 2) (#104)
by vhold on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 03:37:51 AM EST

.. enables your pathetic behavior.

You would never say the things you say to the faces of anybody.  You would most likely be too afraid.

If you really -were- going out and saying those kinds of things to the faces of real people, I suspect you wouldn't have time to come here.  You'd be pretty wrapped up as is.

I suspect you never have the chance to regardless.

I suspect you don't have any meaningful close friendships that would enable that kind of thing.

Because to have such things you have to have empathy towards those who are spilling their guts out.  Or your friends are all super perfect and happy.  Or your friends don't trust you.

Regardless, you are most likely just trolling for the hell of it.

All that indicates is that you are lacking emotional response in normal life, so you come here just to get a bunch of angry responses.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt though, if you have actual feelings and thoughts about things, I suggest that you think about how you would actually go about dealing with a friend who in your mind is perpetuating a harmful victim state.  

Would you relentlessly hurl insults at them or would you actually put some effort into articulating something meangingful?

I only suggest that you think along the lines of how you would treat a friend because one of the built in assumptions there is that you actually care about them.  

What good is your input on personal issues like these if you don't actually care about the person you are responding to?

[ Parent ]

Ghost is not my "friend" (none / 1) (#109)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 04:15:17 AM EST

Obviously the real world and the internet operate differently. Even if I thought the exact same thing of someone I knew, I'd have to approach the subject more carefully simply because real world conversations are necessarily much more personal and can offend people much more greatly. An aggressive stance in writing is vastly less aggressive perceptively than someone sitting in front of your face saying these things to you. So you have to adjust what you say based on the medium of communiation--this goes for all things, from telephones to SMS to letters, etc.

Each method of communication carries with it certain aspects which dictate what is and is not acceptable. When you write someone a letter you take into consideration the medium, you don't "treat them like you treat a fiend sitting in front of you". Nor do I treat someone on the internet as a friend sitting in front of me (not do you, in fact). I take it you see my stance as overly aggressive, but I think it is an effective way to communicate a message to someone who's wallowing in sickly sweet sympathy and understanding. My message is clear, it's just delivered in a high-impact fashion, and one much more acceptable in this medium of communication than face to face interaction.

As to the rest of your baseless and wild assumptions, I can't help but be amused. Do you truly believe that someone who acts aggressively on the internet must have no 'meaningful close friendships'? People who act aggressively in the real world certainly do, and we've established that aggressive acts in the real world are even more offensive than online.

In reality, your attempted stereotyping of me is merely another form of what you hate me for doing so much, acting aggressively. Would you walk up to a stranger on the street, or a fiend of yours, and start talking about how they 'obviously have no meaningful relationships with others'? Would you see someone engaged in an argument, tap them on the shoulder and tell them that seeing their aggressive behavior, they obviously have no 'emotional response'? No, you wouldn't. But you've taken this opportunity to form the weakest chain of reasoning I've ever seen, which allows you to paint me as some sort of emotionally abnormal individual, or what have you. I doubt even you truly believe what you wrote there, but regardless, the point is that youre engaging in exactly what it is you decry. I guess you're emotionally crippled and don't have any close friendships either?

[ Parent ]

That was coherent. (none / 1) (#110)
by vhold on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 04:36:33 AM EST

I've never seen you compose such a coherent argument.  I'm going by just what I've seen in top level posts though.

Well, since your top level here post is now hidden, I guess this is now a mostly personal discussion.

My suggestion that you attempt to imagine him as a friend is based on an ideal I have which is that somebody's very personal issues shouldn't even be commented on unless you care about them.  I didn't say he was your friend, I said, try to imagine if he was.

That comes from the fact that I've known a few people who have gone through some intense personal shit.  Ever seen a jumping between psychosis and sanity?  It's not cool.  Mental problems are real, so I suppose I am more empathic towards those who are working it out because I've seen it first hand.  

Your relatively baseless proclamations that people just need to get over it seem to have no purpose to me other then to offend, I don't see how you can consider them to be some valid form of idea exchange.  

I said that I gave you the benefit of the doubt that my suspicions could all be wrong, giving the fact you've given me a mostly honest response here suggests that I was right to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Your points about the internet being a different kind of communication medium are valid in some respects, but I think the aspect of it you don't understand is that for some people it's not all that different.  They have the ability to be subtle and meaningful just like in real life.  

Deep meaningful writing has existed for who knows how long, just because it's lost on a majority of the internet doesn't validate the absolute lack of it in my mind.

Going balls out with abusive language doesnt't really grant you an extra persuasiveness, not with me, and definitely not with your audience in this case.

How do you perceive the fact that your top level comment disappeared?  Does it validate your tactic to you somehow?  Was your truth so shocking that everybody just had to hide it?

Not in my mind, it just looked like it was a meaningless troll that wasn't going to accomplish much more then sponge mental time from people who would like to actually contribute in insightful ways.

Again, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you wanted to really say something meaningful, but the way you did it isn't suitable for -any- medium, regardless of how low you think the bar is.

[ Parent ]

I expect backlash against many of my comments (2.50 / 2) (#112)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 05:02:07 AM EST

to some degree, because the nature of this piece (and this problem) cries out for sympathy to an extreme degree. Nothing is more 'sacred' in terms of forced sympathy than a personal story of hardship, which I know. However what this means in reality is that the story does nothing, all the responses to it are just understanding sympathy, thank you for sharing, this is my personal story too, etc.

Ghost clearly has problems, and from reading all his comments to this story I believe his primary problem isn't that abuse has caused all these fuck-ups in him, but rather he latches onto his abuse as an excuse-generator that allows him to absolve himself of any personal responsibility for these issues. As I said in another comment, he likes to believe that his problems aren't these because he's fucked up, but because someone FUCKED him up. That is the crux of the issue here, and I tihnk it's something he needs to understand if he actually wants to address these problems and solve them. He's placing himself in the role of a victim because it essentially makes his problems the responibility of a third party, rather than him. You can't solve problems if you don't take responsibilty for them.

Now if you read my comments to this story I think you'd already have established all what I said just there, because I've repeated it in most of my comments to some degree. I think if you read them it's pretty clear what I think. I don't see how my opinion is a 'troll', even though it goes against the majority here. There are also some other users who have commented similarly. I don't see the point in holding back my thoughts on this because I'm not his 'friend'. He didn't go around talking to his friends here, he posted on K5, and I have an opinion about his article, so I'm going to post it. I don't see the problem with this, hes clearly inviting commenarty by posting here (and I don't think he has the right to say "only say nice things", and I won't only say nice things regardless if there's either an explicit ot implicit request to that nature).

Now, what I take it you have the biggest problem with is not my opinion as such (although you probably have a problem with it as well, since it's non-sympathetic), is my method of delivery. As I said before, my delivery is high-impact, and I don't apologise for this. This guy is going to get comment after comment of carefully worded sympathetic crud here, he doesn't need it from me, and it's totally ineffective. This guy isn't my lover, I can't whisper in his ear softly and show him my loving concern, opening his eyes that way. A quiet voice and a soft suggestion is easy to ignore, psychologically. Confrontation is not. I understand perfectly that confronting a person in this situation is not a social ideal, however I believe it to be the best way for my message to have a psychological impact on the listener. Ghost is in a state where it's so fucking easy for him to keep on moving, he's got momentum, he can brush away soft-spoken crap like it's nothing if it doesn't suit his needs. If a person is in a state like that, the way you deal with it is to make it high-impact. It's not 'polite' to go into your kids room and scream at him to clean it up, ground him, take away his Xbox, etc. But if he's been ignoring your quiet pleas for the last 3 weeks, that how you get him to listen to you. You break form, polite or not, to wake him up. You break the conditioning. That's what I do. I know it won't be well received, but I believe it's the most effective way.

[ Parent ]

Try... (3.00 / 3) (#114)
by vhold on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 05:24:28 AM EST

... articulating yourself in a top level comment in the way you did here, just now.

The biggest area where we probably disagree is within this statement:

"A quiet voice and a soft suggestion is easy to ignore, psychologically. Confrontation is not."

Basically you've gone to the opposite extreme, people are willing to -absolutely- ignore what you had to say because it deserved to be ignored, because even if there is a nugget of insight in there, that nugget was inside the piece of feces that a monkey is hurling.  Yea.. I suppose.. it might get some attention.. but was somehow completely lacking meaning.

Not being well received and being somewhat sociopathic are two wildly different things.

High impact delivery is a concept that is much harder in writing, and going ape-shit with insults is simply not the way to do it.  That sort of thing works in real life, and will lead to physical confrontation.  You can't translate the things that would work for impact in real life to the onworld world.  The shield of anonymity removes any meaning there.

I bet if you phrased your ideas, without all the insults, and without quite as much cussing, you'd actually generate some meaningful discussion, which would be the ultimate definition of being heard.

However, in the process of doing so, you'd also have to accept the possibility there are things you don't understand about his situation.  That's the aspect of this that I am coming from.  If you want to speak your mind, you have to be able to accept the fact that you will sometimes be wrong about things and admit to that.

As far as I can tell, the only result of not being able to accept that is an ever escalating arms war of mindless flames.

[ Parent ]

We clearly (none / 0) (#115)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 05:32:02 AM EST

have a difference of opinion on my style of high-impact delivery and its effectiveness. Perhaps I am more offensive than I currently believe, but I don't think I'm unreasonably so. Personally I take a comment no less seriously if it's aggressive in nature, contains profanity, etc. I guess some people take shit like that a lot more seriously for whatever reason. But, I still maintain that I don't consider comments like mine (or any others at a similar level of offensiveness or confrontation) to be somehow super-ignorable by virtue of that fact. If people have trouble reading high-impact commentary like mine and yet still absorbing and understanding the ideas therein, then I think that's a flaw in the reader. Their loss and all.

[ Parent ]
"Their loss and all." (none / 1) (#116)
by vhold on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 05:45:16 AM EST

It's really your loss.  Your ideas are not being heard or understood because they are wrapped up in an angry onion of 'high-impact' ..... umm..  insults and cussing?

That just simply isn't high impact, especially not on the internet.  You can't cuss and insult your way to being understood.

How often have you actually been engaged in a fairly meaningful back and forth like this?  I've never seen you grant civility to anybody the way you've granted me.  

That trips me out.

[ Parent ]

All the time. (none / 1) (#118)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 05:59:33 AM EST

When I think it's interesting to engage in a what you call 'civil' manner, I have no problem doing it. I simply do not feel bound to have this 'civility' my standard mode of communication, which is what makes me a troll in the eyes of most kurons.

Anyway, the point is that my goal here isn't to engage in a discussion about x y z with various kurons, it's to assault Ghost's preconceptions about the role of the abuse in his life. Even a comment 'ignored' can be far more effective than a comment read and understood, because reading and understanding something don't necessarily do anything to break a psychological thought pattern. Aggressive language inherently undermines and attacks person's regular defense patterns, the same patterns he uses to perpetuate his behavior every day of his life (and the same shit that hasn't worked for him all these years).

I'd rather have Ghost not reply to my comments and yet at some tiny level question his assumptions about himself than reply to them and yet never question his pattern of thinking. Again, I believe that to someone whose defective psychology is so ingrained, civil discussion is inherently ineffective and hostile high-impact confrontation is inherently effective, regardless of whether or not it becomes 10-level thread or gets zero replies. I don't care if he never responds to my comment as long as it makes him actually question himself, rather than just engage in more low-impact surface-level crap.

If you want to go ahead and play nice, try not to offend him, try not to shock him or whatever, go ahead, I wish you the best of luck. I still think my way works better.

[ Parent ]

Oh, so it's not TROLLING, it's EST! (none / 1) (#141)
by localroger on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:25:43 AM EST

Surely you are aware that people do practice exactly the kind of psychic assault (good choice of word there, IHT) you are practicing here in real life. Don't be such a chickenshit. Next time you see someone in RL who needs this kind of correction, let 'em have it.

After you get out of the hospital I'm sure you will still agree with the sentiment in the parent comment.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

Would you have said what you just said to (none / 1) (#144)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:32:58 AM EST

someone's face? LOL. Nice hypocrisy there, Roger. I'd like to see your Mexican chompers survive the brawl you so desperately want, though.

Still, it's too bad you're apparently incapable of dealing with people in situations where you can't resort to physical violence against them. I think that really says something about you more than me, though.

[ Parent ]

Well it would make no sense (none / 1) (#148)
by localroger on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:47:06 AM EST

since I was basically calling you a coward online for doing what you do online. If you were doing it in RL the comment would not be necessary because your sin would not be cowardice.

And I would not be the one to throw a punch at you in RL. But if you were doing this in RL as much as you do it here, I'd wager (and I never take losing wagers) that it wouldn't take you long to find someone who did.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

What's your point? (none / 0) (#151)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:55:46 AM EST

As I said, we communicate based on what is allowed by the medium. Whether or not I'd get physically attacked for saying what I do in real life is irrelevant, since it's not a type of communication suited to the medium and therefore doesn't happen. You take advantage of this medium just as much as anyone, roger, with your self-centered ramblings and the subsequent ego-stroking you receive. If you walked up to a random stranger and started reciting that post about how your daddy doesn't love you, you'd be judge just as insane as me doing the same to people I don't know. If you printed and posted it on a bulletin board it'd seem less crazy, but still purposeless.

Your attempts to demonise my utilisation of the medium ignore the fact that everyone here is doing the exact same thing in any number of different ways--it is simply the nature of the format. Saying that my behavior is unacceptable offline is meaningless, because yours is just the same.

The fact is, roger, you have issues regarding your trollability and general ability to be offended by strangers. It's convenient for you that offline communication doesn't usually involve these types of things (and thus you're protected from your issues with them while offline), but don't paint a picture like everyone else has to conform to your behavioral standards from ANOTHER medium just because you can't deal with the realities of this one.

[ Parent ]

Reality (none / 1) (#157)
by localroger on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 10:38:50 AM EST

Your attempts to demonise my utilisation of the medium ignore the fact that everyone here is doing the exact same thing in any number of different ways

Um, no, I am saying that you are using the medium to cause pain so you can laugh at the angry reactions you get. And the reason you don't use the "face to face" medium the same way is that the people you hurt might retaliate in ways that are actually meaningful to you.

The fact that it is harder to cause someone else pain through a thousand miles of fiberoptics than it is face-to-face is irrelevant. You wouldn't be doing it if it didn't cause pain because it's the angry reaction that makes trolling fun.

And nobody else here (except the other trolls) is doing "the exact same thing." Stroking your ego may be vain but it is not the same as deliberately hurting other people. And pretending that your hateful amusement is some kind of therapeutic shock for the person you're hurting is just lower than whale shit.



I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

Incorrect (none / 1) (#139)
by localroger on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:19:03 AM EST

Even if I thought the exact same thing of someone I knew, I'd have to approach the subject more carefully simply because real world conversations are necessarily much more personal and can offend people much more greatly. An aggressive stance in writing is vastly less aggressive perceptively than someone sitting in front of your face saying these things to you.

This is completely untrue. A hateful comment is hateful whether you say it to someone's face or publish it here.

Let's be honest. If you weren't causing people pain and making them angry then trolling them wouldn't be fun. That's why you do it. The real reason you feel safe telling people hateful things here is that there is no possibility of them knocking your lights out no matter how richly you deserve it.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

If you think (none / 1) (#142)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:27:18 AM EST

that an aggressive comment like mine spoken literally offline is merely equally offensive as the online version, you're either deluding yourself or you have serious issues which are either severely dampening your emotional response to real world communication or severely heightening your emotional response to online communication.

That and nobody alive would agree with you. There is CLEARLY less emotional involvement in any written communication than there is in face-to-face communication, at least in individuals without severe social dysfunction (not sure if this applies to you).

But of course, there's one thing trolls will never admit, which is that trolling is evil.

[ Parent ]

If you didn't think (none / 1) (#146)
by localroger on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:40:32 AM EST

that it was causing people pain you wouldn't be doing it. It is the angry reaction that makes trolling fun.

People have a bad tendency to find evil things fun if they can get away with it. The Japanese soldiers who sacked Nanking apparently had a grand old time, took many pictures to remember the festivities by. What you do is much less harsh than that, but ultimately comes from the same streak of cruelty. You don't do it here and not RL because of the communications medium, you do it here because you can get away with it.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

Superb. (none / 0) (#149)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:47:34 AM EST

I always wanted my posts compared to the Nanking messacre.

[ Parent ]
Well you do make it easy /nt (none / 0) (#150)
by localroger on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:48:38 AM EST



I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
Jesus, this thread is one zinger after another. (none / 0) (#388)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:49:44 PM EST

Voting 5 golden manbabies!

[ Parent ]
Also (1.50 / 4) (#59)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 08:33:23 AM EST

There's a difference between fear and hatred; hatred does not imply fear. Use of a term of hatred like 'nigger' for example does not imply the person fears black people, nor does use of a word like 'asshole' imply the speaker fears the person they're branding. Similarly, a word like 'faggot' implies a dislike, not a fear. Attempts to destroy 'faggot' as a hate-word and turn it into a 'fear word' is another objective of the Gay Agenda (and one that has clearly worked on you).

Not that I either fear or hate faggots, though. You simply come from a background where you have been strongly protected from liberal profanity (middle class, probably private schooling, etc.), and so you're hypersenitive to many swear words that are low impact to many others. It's a cultural gap that you're too blind to see, too stupid to understand, I guess.

[ Parent ]

I'll let you in on a little secret. (none / 1) (#234)
by Entendre Entendre on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 04:15:20 AM EST

Everybody knows hatred != fear. It's pretty obvious, don't you think?

What is less obvious (especially to someone in your position) is the snickering that accompanies indignation such as yours.

And that's why homophiles will be employing the word "homophobe" until the end of time. They know it's inaccurate. Everybody knows. But it's not about accuracy, it's about amusement.

YHBT. YHL. HTH. HAND.

--
Reduce firearm violence: aim carefully.
[ Parent ]

Completely untrue. (none / 0) (#237)
by I HATE TROLLS on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 04:56:44 AM EST

When most people refer to anti-homosexual slurs as 'homophobic' it doesn't cross their mind for one second what the implications of that term are--they have merely been indoctrinated with its use thanks to the Gay Agenda's social manipulation of society. The equating of anti-homosexual ideas with fear is anything but conscious in the vast majority of cases. Most people are utterly unaware of the biases present in the language they use.

I do however agree completely that in the case of purveyors of the Gay Agenda the use is absolutely intentional, but most people don't analyse this. Most people don't even accept the Gay Agenda exists, because they've been indoctrinated by it so heavily that they think admitting its existance would be seen as an act of 'homophobia' themselves. It is with this in mind that subjects of Gay Agenda indoctrination must be woken from their slumbers and shown the truth about what the Gay Agenda is brainwashing them to believe and forcing them to act.

[ Parent ]

Dear IHT (none / 0) (#245)
by brain in a jar on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 07:38:38 AM EST

Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to act. The things you have wanted and the things you have done were all done by choice.

Your choice.

I hope for your sake you come to accept what you are and stop blaming other people for having "forced you to act". Take some responsibility for yourself.

Neither your nor the ghost "structure and discipline" you need to know the truth, to understand it and accept it.


Life is too important, to be taken entirely seriously.
[ Parent ]

As a general rule. (none / 0) (#293)
by Fon2d2 on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 02:07:38 PM EST

Back when I used to play Warcraft online through MSN Gaming Zone, I quickly learned that anybody that had a name that advertised themselves as a newbie was almost always completely the opposite. Perhaps such is the case with "i hate trolls".

[ Parent ]
scum (none / 0) (#140)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:20:34 AM EST

is what you are. you fucking piece of shit. i hope you get raped so you will know what its like.

[ Parent ]
This was a brave thing to do (repost as topical) (3.00 / 9) (#42)
by brain in a jar on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 03:32:50 AM EST

and you deserve support for having found the courage to do it.

I'm no shrink but I would nonetheless take your shrink's diagnosis with a little caution.

The problems which you describe as having at work, could describe fairly exactly problems which I too have had. But I have never experienced abuse.

My family background is a relatively normal one, that of a middle class British family, with a certain amount of emotional distance between its members. Yet I too have doubted my ability to do tasks, which are in fact well within my power (motivation is a constant struggle). I too have felt that I have an excessive need to control my environment and wondered if this stems from some weakness of personality. I am also less than perfect in my way of handling arguments, tending to be overly defensive, and at times emotionally more suppressed or distant from my Girlfriend than she would like.

These all appear to be problems which can and do arise in the absence of abuse. Either feeling a bit distant from ones parents is sufficient, or perhaps these patterns of thought and behavior can arise without a strong childhood cause. Are some of these things an integral part of the human condition.

I don't wish to downplay the significance of your experiences, or imply that you shouldn't seek help for your distress. I simply want to say that you might want to look for solutions in the present as much as in the past.

I have found that the buddhist concept of mindfulness very helpful in dealing with problems of motivation. The ability to focus precisely on the task in hand, and also the ability to observe patterns of distracting or demotivating thought as they occur and then move past them is very valuable. It is also something which can be practiced without holding any particular religious belief.

If I find myself avoiding doing something, or avoiding making a decision because I fear that I will make an error or because the results are uncertain, then I remind myself of the metaphor of the stuck screw in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" (you use the word gumption so I guess you've probably read it). The metaphor for me is about the fact that sometimes something which seems trivial and annoying can in fact be of great importance because we cannot proceed until it has been solved. The annoying, worrying or trivial nature of the problem can prevent one from truly focusing on it and giving it the attention it deserves, the attention required to solve it.

In more concrete terms, remembering this helps me break out of procrastination, it helps me recognise things which are preventing me working, and helps me to force myself to focus on them until they are solved.

So, kudos for your bravery and don't forget to look for solutions in the present as well as in the past. Patterns of thought and behavior are habits, even if they arose due to past experience it is in the present that we have the power to change them.


Life is too important, to be taken entirely seriously.

"feeling a bit distant" (2.80 / 5) (#45)
by SocratesGhost on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:09:48 AM EST

I tend to use understatement.

I haven't spoken to my mom since three telephone numbers ago. No particular reason, I just don't have anything to tell her. I have not spoken to my brother since some time in the mid 90's when I was obliged to be at his wedding. My father makes a much greater effort to get in touch with me but years can go by before I pick up the phone. We seem to speak about 6 times a year now, particularly around holidays and birthdays. He's always the one who calls.

That's what I mean by distant. I hope that isn't the normal pattern for families.

And when I say job dissatisfaction, it's similarly understated. I'll leave that up to your own imagination how that manifests but it would take more than a "I hate my job" attitude to call it self-sabotage, an assessment that no one who has seen my behavior recently would have any doubt in believing.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
Want a kleenex? (1.12 / 8) (#49)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:33:57 AM EST

You're the one fucking that shit up, moron. You want a closer relationship with your family? Put in some fucking effort, just like everybody else has to.

[ Parent ]
Ok Understood (3.00 / 2) (#51)
by brain in a jar on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:40:42 AM EST

I expect you rate a lot more highly on the distance scale than me. For me it is a question of speaking on the phone every couple of weeks or so, but often just swapping news rather than engaging at an emotional level.

As to the job dissatisfaction, I guess that is also probably more intense in your case, but I have been though a patch (thankfully now over) where I felt that my output was worthless and that I had been wasting my life.

What is the idea with "self-sabotage" is it interpreted as some kind of cry for help?


Life is too important, to be taken entirely seriously.
[ Parent ]

re: self-sabotage (3.00 / 6) (#69)
by SocratesGhost on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 12:49:36 PM EST

possibly but I don't think its a cry for help, otherwise the severity probably already would have manifest. Being a control freak implies an independence from everyone so I think a cry for help would be a bit uncharacteristic. Then again, it may only be getting more severe simply because I don't ask for help, so you may be right.

One person I know has described it as a fear of success. I make better than decent money (in fact, i probably pay more in taxes than I HATE TROLLS makes in a year and in my head I jokingly measure my salary in terms of "how many government employees do I alone pay for?") and have been doing so for years. But then something happens that triggers a response, like someone breaking in to my car. They took a box cutter, sliced through the convertible rooftop and lifted something from the front seat. As a result of that, getting to my car becomes something of a sore spot, not because I feel violated but because I'm ashamed to be reminded that I put something tempting in the front seat.

As a result, the car remains unfixed, I work from home for days at a time, and the fridge empties out as I am reluctant to use my car to shop for groceries. It's not agoraphobia as I don't have a problem walking to the store. I just have a hard time facing up to the issues surrounding my car.

The response from one of the people with whom I'm close: what is there to be embarrassed about? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. But because there's nothing about which to be embarrassed, this further embarrasses me that I acted so irrationally and this brings on more feelings of worthlessness, isolation, and the whole process finds a happy little self-reinforcing circle that I have to break only with a great deal of effort and discomfort.

Part of the thing that some of these people don't get is that I try to be uber-responsible for things; it's the natural response from a person who is a control freak. The fact is, I know what my responsibilities are and I deliver it by the end of the day, but the result is that my days are much much longer than everyone elses, with a willingness to put in 16 or more hours in a given day simply because the earlier output wasn't billable. It's hard to bill the client for "Struggling with inner demons while implementing a a database interface." The client still ends up with the interface, though.

I honestly wish it was easier. It's emotionally taxing when everything you do in a day becomes a source of shame. People like IHT simply do not understand because presumably they don't have such feelings of guilt and, God bless them, I hope they never do. But I also think their lack of empathy is probably not a very admirable trait. Lack of empathy is part of the reason why I beat myself up so hard. They aren't saying anything that I haven't said to myself for 20 or so years. The reality is, that strategy simply no longer works.

Why they need to be so hostile in their condemnation, I'm not sure. It's an interesting response to someone else's vulnerability.

Maybe they just need a hug. :^)

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
More snowflake syndrome (1.11 / 9) (#73)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 01:41:03 PM EST

Fact is, Ghost, all the shit you describe over and voer as the result of your so-called 'abuse' is shit people everywhere deal with without a convenient excuse like yours to back it up. You get mugged at night, you become insecure about walking around after dark. Why, because you were abused as a child? No, because it's a fucking normal response. You act like your shit's all fucked up because of this event way back in your past, what does that mean? What about everybody else with the same problems as you who WASN'T abused?

All you're doing, Ghost, is picking some pinnacle of shittyness in your life and playing attribution games, because it makes you feel good. No, you don't have emotional issues because you're just fucked up, you have them because someone else FUCKED you up. Not your fault, right? Oh woe is me, how sad my life isn't perfect, if only I wasn't abused everything would be okay. News flash: that's complete and utter bullshit. The only way your abuse is significant in your life is because you find it comforting to keep it significant; comforting that you how have something you can blame your problems and flaws on. Your healing process isn't getting rid of the scars of abuse, your healing process is realising that you don't have any scars, you just have excuses. Just like everybody else, Ghost, abused or not.

[ Parent ]

You know... (3.00 / 2) (#94)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 09:18:19 PM EST

It's kinda lame to assume that someone lacks empathy simply because they don't cry when reading your k5 article. The internet makes it possible to read 10,000 new and original stories each day, and anyone with a semi-functional brainstem knows that these are the tiniest microscopic tip of the iceberg which is the hell we call planet earth and the magnitude beyond description of suffering that occurs on it every single fraction of a second.

IHT doesn't know you in real life, I think. He doesn't know what you look like, and he lives how far away?

Am I the only one  here that stops and wonders if there are words to read between the lines, that even if they aren't there, that there's more to a story? Not to yours, but to everyone's. Things happen that I don't see, and will never be able to deduce from evidence after the fact. Weird and downright bizarre in the non-paranormal (Thanks localroger, for making me feel it necessary to include that last bit) sense of those words. But I'm starting to imagine the possibilities, and its downright scary. Things pop into my mind, like that half the trolls that troll off to your article here, they do that themselves, because some part of their own psyche was fucked up nice and good back when they were 6 yrs old.


--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]

Only half? (2.50 / 2) (#229)
by Entendre Entendre on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 03:34:25 AM EST

[...] half the trolls that troll off to your article here, they do that themselves, because some part of their own psyche was fucked up nice and good back when they were 6 yrs old.

I'd wager it's all of them. Seriously. Normal people just don't do that shit.

It's like someone else wrote in this thread - when you see some kid in the news that killed both parents, you have to wonder what they did to him. And you have to wonder what sort of scars the trolls are hiding. I feel sorry for them.

--
Reduce firearm violence: aim carefully.
[ Parent ]

The thing with the car (3.00 / 4) (#239)
by brain in a jar on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 05:05:58 AM EST

Its the classic pattern of neurosis I guess. Something which in and of itself is not a big deal, becomes one because we don't wish to or refuse to deal with it. The avoidance of the thing, is more important than the thing itself.

I think to some extent the car is like the stuck screw I describe. You avoid dealing with it because it is unpleasant and somehow trivial (it doesn't seem to merit the importance it actually has for you) and then you beat yourself up for avoiding it. In a way it seems to be like the problems I had with procrastination. After a heavy day of procrastination I would feel really stressed out, because of the inner conflict, feeling the need to get work done, and yet avoiding doing the work. Once I realised that this was causing me major misery I was more able to steel myself and not let myself turn away from the work I had been avoiding. I had to realise that this did matter that this was the stuck screw that was holding back my whole progress (stopping me from fixing the metaphorical motorbike) only then could I face starting the work I had been avoiding and the feelings of conflict then passed.

The key for me is was realising that it was an important problem, it was causing me misery and I did have to deal with it.

I think practising meditation regularly has also helped me to face up to things I would otherwise avoid, because it gives me a reservoir of calm and concentration I can use to get past difficult things. The practice of focusing and being aware of ones own focus and attention makes it easier to realise when your thoughts are drifting away from the matter in hand, and easier to bring them back to where they should be.

I found this book helpful. Whatever religious beliefs you may or may not hold I would encourage you to try some meditation purely as a mental discipline, I think it improves the mind and makes one more able to deal with the neuroses that we all suffer from to a lesser or greater extent.

On the trolls, some of them are probably just mean. As Local Roger pointed out there is a certain mean streak in humanity, sometimes we hurt people just because we are able to do so with impunity, i.e. just to feel powerful. Maybe also there is something in that they probably have fiarly serious issues themselves and if they were honest with themselves they would like to seek help or understanding for them. However their hangups prevent them from doing so and so they feel they have no choice but to keep their pain inside. However your choice to be open about this, questions the validity of their choice and makes them uncomfortable. Hence they wish you would just "be a man" and suffer bravely in silence (as they feel they are), though to be honest their noisy protest at your openess speaks eloquently of the extent of their internal suffering.


Life is too important, to be taken entirely seriously.
[ Parent ]

brave? lol its a website. (1.20 / 5) (#52)
by Eigoon on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 06:38:00 AM EST


There's no mistake I smell that smell it's TIME FOR A NEW ACCOUNT AGAIN.
[ Parent ]
First, Find the Blue Fairy (3.00 / 6) (#53)
by Alfie on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 06:52:25 AM EST

Some people take social interaction seriously--even on websites. Especially if they plan to be here a while and don't have a bajillion semi-anonymous usernames.

Try it sometime. You might like it.



[ Parent ]
bajillion lol (2.00 / 5) (#54)
by Eigoon on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 07:03:46 AM EST


There's no mistake I smell that smell it's TIME FOR A NEW ACCOUNT AGAIN.
[ Parent ]
"I have never experienced abuse." (none / 0) (#280)
by Fon2d2 on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:33:06 PM EST

You may want to reassess that statement. Abuse can be subtle and not perceived. I'm currently working my way through a book entitled "Undoing Perpetual Stress". It is written be a psychologist who also went through therapy for his own depression. I remember him saying in one of the earlier chapters a lot of patients come in and say "but I've never been the victim of abuse". But that's not the way it is, and it's almost never true.

I've never seen a therapist, but I've tried to figure out why I am the way I am, and like you, I don't perceive myself as the victim of abuse. At least in the home. Emotional abuse at school was pretty bad however, and I've talked about this with my mom recently, and she has agreed she was not supportive or sympathetic enough to these problems. Not that I talked about them. It's funny what kids feel they can and can't talk about, but if there is something a child isn't talking about, that's a big problem.

So, in summary, don't discount that you may have had your own negative or traumatic experiences. You may just not recognize them.

[ Parent ]

I guess in the context (none / 0) (#330)
by brain in a jar on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 04:12:42 AM EST

I meant that my family situation is ok.

I had something of hard time at school, but I think I am fairly comfortable with that. I know I had a hard time at school, I know what tendencies this might give me, and I think I do an OK job of keeping an eye out for them.

Mind you I'm not discounting that some of the troubles I have, have some roots in the past, it is just that I think if solutions can be found, they lie in the present.


Life is too important, to be taken entirely seriously.
[ Parent ]

Molestation in the home (3.00 / 16) (#46)
by forgotten on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:12:57 AM EST

When I grew up, this was something that I had never conceived of. I had never heard of it, it was not a subject discussed at school, if any of my schoolmates had such problems, they were well hidden. I knew what incest was, intellectually, but it seemed completely remote from my world.

I guess it was naive, but in a good way. I thought the best of people.

The first time I ever met someone who had been abused was in college. She was cute, kind of trendy, and I wanted to date her. Her living arrangements came up in conversation one time, and she mentioned that she hadn't been living with her family for some years. Why not, I joked, they didn't let you stay out late? No, she said. When she was 14 her older brother raped her. She told her mother, and was kicked out of the house that very night. She slept in the park for a while. Islamic family: better to lose the daughter than disgrace the eldest son.

--

Nice religious stereotyping there, bigot. (1.00 / 13) (#48)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:31:13 AM EST



[ Parent ]
her explanation, not mine. (3.00 / 11) (#50)
by forgotten on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:37:42 AM EST

But i guess the last line should have read, "she said, because of the strictly Islamic culture in her family, her mother was unable to cope with what her son had done, and responded irrationally."


--

[ Parent ]

Hmm, not irrational (1.75 / 4) (#85)
by livus on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:55:26 PM EST

if it really was the lesser of two evils to her, then she acted logically. Logic can be cruel.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
logical? (3.00 / 4) (#113)
by forgotten on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 05:23:10 AM EST

i don't know. if your premises are absurd, I don't think that following them to their logical conculsions makes them rational.

to take another example (coincidentally, also islamic), many mothers in african nations want their daughters to undergo female circumcision. the rationale is that they will not be able to marry otherwise. Is that rational behaviour? I can't bring myself to conclude that it is.

--

[ Parent ]

In terms of formal logic (3.00 / 2) (#119)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 06:06:52 AM EST

A rational argument by definition does not care about the truth value of its premises, only that it is logically constructed from them. "Jesus is the leader of the Communist Party; The leader of the Communist Party is black; therefore Jesus is black" is a rational argument, for example. It is, however, not a sound argument, since to be sound it must also have true premises.

[ Parent ]
ok, i guess (none / 1) (#120)
by forgotten on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 06:21:49 AM EST

that the correct term is "sound", whereas I was using "rational".

--

[ Parent ]

Well (none / 1) (#121)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 06:29:56 AM EST

I think in common usage 'rational' is very often close to or the same as 'sound'. The terms are, after all, only really strcitly defined when used in the context of formal logic.

[ Parent ]
In common use rational all to often = iawtp n/t (none / 0) (#206)
by livus on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 06:29:11 PM EST



---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
-1, Excuses... (1.03 / 27) (#61)
by elver on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 09:21:40 AM EST

And all *MY* psychological problems stem from the time *I* crashed my bike into a bush when I was a kid. *I* feel depressed and *I* often question myself and *I* am uncomfortable in crowds and *I* am not a very socially active person AND this is ALL because of that one incident! (These symptoms probably apply to about 70% of people. Look up the Forer Effect.)

Look. Something happened to you when you were a kid. It was a bad thing, a very negative experience for you. Guess what, you're not a kid anymore. Take responsibility for yourself and stop blaming things on a sex life that got off to a bad start. My first time wasn't great either.

It's so easy for psychologists to say that everything that's fucked in your head is because of that one experience. It's not. There are plenty of fucked up people without such history.

You people are like furries. A single furry gets over his fetish or practices it alone. Two furries might do something together. Three furries might have even more fun together. But once the amount of furries exceeds the critical mass, you get things like furry communities on the net, porn with half-humans half-animals, furries in public, furry conventions, etc. It becomes an acceptable lifestyle.

Likewise someone who's been abused as a kid, whether sexually or otherwise, (I resent the notion that anything sexual is automatically "abuse") should get over it given time. How they deal with it is up to them. A good psychologist might help, but more often than not, things like psychologists and support groups blow it way out of proportion. And that's how you get the whole victim culture, "survivors" (hey, was anyone holding a gun to your head?) and people who become so obsessed with their past experience that they can't live a normal life.

To you, dear author, I wish good luck in dealing with whatever psychological problems you might have. The fact that you were abused as a kid is likely only a coincidence or a minor factor. If it isn't, you should stop nursing that particular experience.

Way to go (3.00 / 3) (#153)
by destroy all monsters on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 10:02:13 AM EST

by comparing your first time sexually to ongoing rape. That takes idiocy to an all time high on K5.

"It's so easy for psychologists to say that everything that's fucked in your head is because of that one experience. It's not. There are plenty of fucked up people without such history."

There is no one that is fucked up that doesn't have some negative history jackass. I'm glad you're so aware of the DSM-IV that you know precisely that the therapist claimed it was all based on the rapes. In fact, what you're dealing with is the trauma from the rapes and how it crosses boundaries when coming from family members.

Haha yes, all rape victims are like furries how incredibly perceptive of you.

"Likewise someone who's been abused as a kid, whether sexually or otherwise, (I resent the notion that anything sexual is automatically "abuse") should get over it given time. How they deal with it is up to them."

Perhaps because you're an abuser yourself? Yes, "just get over it" is a time-tested cure for all psychological ailments. Of course! How did I miss it before?

How someone deals with anything is based on environment, upbringing and genetics. Only one of those does one have any control over. I don't care how much you worship Carl Rogers there's no way even he would see your point of view as somehow something SG could just snap out of. Many people *never* get over it - and not for lack of trying.

"A good psychologist might help, but more often than not, things like psychologists and support groups blow it way out of proportion."

And this is based on what knowledge and experience? Or is it just that you like beating up on those that have suffered more than yourself out of sport?

You are most likely a troll, however this kind of deliberate minimizing of the pain of others is precisely why it must be fought at every turn. I'm glad that it helped you in life to be told to "get the fuck over" whatever you've been through since it's obviously helped you so much.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

Open your eyes... (none / 1) (#218)
by elver on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 10:59:48 PM EST

There is no one that is fucked up that doesn't have some negative history jackass.

Um. That's just plain wrong. Many psychological problems are caused by genetics or brain chemistry that's fucked up for some reason. Negative history is not required.

Haha yes, all rape victims are like furries how incredibly perceptive of you.

There are remarkable similarities between these two. Especially the whole "legalising the lifestyle" bit.

Perhaps because you're an abuser yourself? Yes, "just get over it" is a time-tested cure for all psychological ailments. Of course! How did I miss it before?

So you're saying that nursing this negative experience will help? Suppose someone has a really big nose. He could just ignore it and live like a normal human being. Or he could join a Bignose Support Group, spend his nights discussing the size of his nose with others, giving talks in schools about big noses, writing books about living with a big nose, appearing on TV to tell people that it's okay to have a big nose, etc.

Ignore it. Deal with it. Do not nurse it into a legitimate lifestyle.

Many people *never* get over it - and not for lack of trying.

I'm just taking a wild-ass guess here, but, um, wouldn't the people that get over it not advertise their childhood sexual experiences to the entire world? Stop nursing the negative experience. It's clearly getting in your way, so get it out of the way.

"A good psychologist might help, but more often than not, things like psychologists and support groups blow it way out of proportion."

And this is based on what knowledge and experience? Or is it just that you like beating up on those that have suffered more than yourself out of sport?

Many people I know have had psychological problems. Not childhood sexual abuse or such, not as far as I know anyway. But serious psychological problems anyway. Some got over their issues on their own. Some learnt to live with it on their own. And, yes, one did get good tips from a pscyhologist. But many people with these problems went to psychologists and came back... changed. Altered somehow. They're not friendly, they're downright jerks. The more intelligent ones are all of the sudden dumb.

So, yes, you could say that my opinion of psychologists is based on experience. But that's not all, really. Do some research about psychology. You'll find that there is a lot of bullshit there.

You are most likely a troll, however this kind of deliberate minimizing of the pain of others is precisely why it must be fought at every turn.

Allow me to be "insensitive" and "politically incorrect" yet again. If the statistics that the author quoted are correct, incest is a pretty normal part of life. In some cultures this is accepted and allowed. In others it's a taboo. And yet in others, like ours, it's something very bad. The people it happens to are victimized and instead of living with it, it's blown way out of proportion. This does not help. I'm sure you can see it.



[ Parent ]
Or in your case, the blind leading the blind (none / 1) (#248)
by destroy all monsters on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 09:52:51 AM EST

"Um. That's just plain wrong. Many psychological problems are caused by genetics or brain chemistry that's fucked up for some reason. Negative history is not required."

This may be true but in reality it nearly never happens that way. If one has genetic mental illness the vast majority of the parents are attendently mentally ill. So while theoretically possible, it is almost never true factually.

Me:"Haha yes, all rape victims are like furries how incredibly perceptive of you."

You:"There are remarkable similarities between these two. Especially the whole "legalising the lifestyle" bit."

Hahahaha. Of course, rape victims are A LIFESTYLE! How could I have been so very wrong?

"So you're saying that nursing this negative experience will help?"

No, what I'm saying is that idiotic comments and attitudes don't. Both of which you have exhibited in spades.

"Stop nursing the negative experience. It's clearly getting in your way, so get it out of the way."

Of course, click your red shoes together three times and off you go!

Me again:"And this is based on what knowledge and experience? Or is it just that you like beating up on those that have suffered more than yourself out of sport?"

You:"Many people I know have had psychological problems. Not childhood sexual abuse or such"

So you don't know anything about what you're talking about on any practical level.

"Some got over their issues on their own. Some learnt to live with it on their own."

As I have commented *many* times before in this regard it is a matter of *degree*. But let's say you're not lying: did they cure their own schizophrenia?  Did they wish their bi-polar disorder away? No, they didn't. And of all the things that can happen to someone in a psychological manner-  the greatest are rape and torture. Until you know someone who has gone through it, or have gone through it yourself you don't know shit.

"But many people with these problems went to psychologists and came back... changed. Altered somehow. They're not friendly, they're downright jerks. The more intelligent ones are all of the sudden dumb."

Ah, I get it now - you're a scientologist.

"So, yes, you could say that my opinion of psychologists is based on experience."

Yes, that would be none.

"But that's not all, really. Do some research about psychology. You'll find that there is a lot of bullshit there."

I studied it Tom. There's much greater bullshit out there. Let's call one Xenu.

"If the statistics that the author quoted are correct, incest is a pretty normal part of life. In some cultures this is accepted and allowed."

Where? Do we know what the psychological fall out is from it there? Are you suggesting that since female circumcision is typically performed in some cultures it is right? Or is this just a typical scientologist troll?

"The people it happens to are victimized and instead of living with it, it's blown way out of proportion."

In other words people should STFU who you don't want to hear from. I didn't realize male rape victims were such a publicized group.Perhaps you should tell one of your female friends to STFU and "get the fuck over it" when she tells you about her rape. Please come tell us how that works out.

When you get raped then you can pass judgement. Until that time kindly pull your head out of L. Ron's ass and stop typing until you know what it is you write about. Jackass.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

-1 you are fucking prick that needs to be executed (2.00 / 6) (#162)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 11:06:00 AM EST

nt

[ Parent ]
Psychologists are psychic vampires (1.54 / 11) (#63)
by Magnetic North on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 10:07:35 AM EST

They are leeches who feed off negative energy and they will say anything to create delusions for that purpose. I'm sure most of them think they mean well though.

Most of what is passed of as psychology is pure drivel and only occasionally deserves to be called pseudoscience in my experience. Applied psychology seems to be all about setting up recursive thought loops to concentrate negative emotions. I don't understand why anybody thinks this is a good idea.

The only applied psychology I've encountered that makes any sense what so ever, in my opinion, is Buddhism and variants of it.

--
<33333
Mmm...negative energy (none / 1) (#75)
by LilDebbie on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 01:48:42 PM EST

You don't have to be a psychologist to be a psychic vampire. You eat more regularly, but you don't get the choice morsels.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
Hear, hear! (none / 0) (#123)
by psychologist on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 06:37:55 AM EST

Now we are getting somewhere. Cut through the pseudo-science, and let the real psychologists speak about provable stuff.

BTW, don't confuse psychologist with psychiatrists.

[ Parent ]

Church of Scientology? (2.40 / 5) (#128)
by stuaart on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 07:57:01 AM EST

Oh, no, that's psychiatry. My mistake.

Linkwhore: [Hidden stories.] Baldrtainment: Corporate concubines and Baldrson: An Introspective


[ Parent ]
Abuse, Control, and the Nuclear Family (3.00 / 25) (#65)
by localroger on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 11:29:48 AM EST

The modern model of the ideal family is terrible. If you lose the lottery of life and draw parents who are mean, perverted, or just plain incompetent, you're fucked. You can't really go anywhere else for a second opinion. Every social institution assumes the parents' final authority unless things are so grim they warrant ripping the family apart and placing you in an institutional system that's even worse.

I wasn't sexually or physically abused, but several people familiar with my childhood have told me that I was horrifically abused emotionally. No matter what I did it wasn't good enough. My parents constantly cut me down. I responded by becoming so good at certain things that even they couldn't deny my skill, but their response would be something like this: "So, you can get to the international science fair, but you can't remember to take out the garbage on Tuesdays. How are you going to make it in the real world?"

I don't think my parents were intending to hurt me; it's just that they were very insecure themselves and were probably afraid of the inevitable day I'd leave to be on my own. There may have also been a kind of psychic Munchausen by Proxy effect; as long as I was weak and incompetent I would need their protection. And they protected me by standing between me and anything they considered threatening.

Because we were isolated in a suburban home with the grandparents on the other side of town and most of the rest of the family in the next state, and we had no close friends who visited regularly, there was nobody to observe what was going on and put it in perspective. There was no one in a position to tell me they really were treating me unfairly.

They sabotaged my plans to go out of state for college, but at the local community college I made more friends than I had in high school. In particular I met girls, which is kind of hard to do when you ride the school bus an hour each way to an all-boys secondary school. Since I had no experience in courtship and didn't know how to recognize their sexual interest or non-crudely signal my own, I tended to form platonic friendships.

The day I finally realized what my parents were doing to me was when I brought one of these platonic girlfriends over to meet my parents. The constant background of insults and putdowns roared into a hurricane of abuse so awful even I could see it. They literally couldn't say two sentences without pointing out something wrong with me. I couldn't comb my hair right, I was too thin, couldn't be relied on for a simple thing like taking out the trash, couldn't fold the clothes without wrinkling them, and on and on and on. N. feigned illness so I could take her home early and she went straight to the medicine cabinet for two Valium before she could talk about it. When she calmed down, she said this: "My stepfather beat the crap out of me for ten years, but your parents make him look like Mister Rogers."

When I returned home, my parents accused me of embarrassing them in front of my friend. I just said "I guess I won't bring any more girls home to meet you, then." It was a beginning, but I was still emotionally and socially crippled. And having gone through all my formative years under their thumbs, it left me with a rather interesting pscyo-sexual legacy, which has occasionally crept into my writing.

What finally pried me away from them and into the world was a girl who decided she might never again meet someone who she could trust as much as she trusted me whose sexual paraphilia was also complementary to her own. After failing at all the usual methods of seduction, and understanding what the problem was, she finally just asked me directly if I'd be interested in fucking her. Well duh.

If this was a novel that would be the happy ending, but it was actually the start of a shitstorm so painful that my fingers start shaking when I try to recall the details. I ended up struggling to find a job and set up a household in a terrible economy with no college degree and none of the usual help kids expect from their parents.

After they stole my car, hired a lawyer, and I realized they were snooping around my friends for grounds to have me involuntarily committed to a mental institution, I told the lawyer that I considered myself an orphan and I wanted no further contact from them. And that's how our relationship remained for seventeen years.

If it's true that whatever doesn't kill you makes you strong all that should have turned me into a fucking god. But of course sometimes pain doesn't make you strong; sometimes pain just fucking hurts and doesn't teach you a damn thing you can use.

Anyway, I suppose I was fortunate that my control issues crystallized in my sex life instead of in my social or work life.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Maybe you really did just suck at everything? (1.05 / 20) (#66)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 11:37:02 AM EST

Judging by your contributions to K5 I don't really think it's much of a stretch.

[ Parent ]
Mommy never taught me how teh toothbrush works (1.15 / 13) (#68)
by Tex Bigballs on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 12:10:54 PM EST

wahhhhhhhhhhh

[ Parent ]
Hi, Fido! (2.83 / 6) (#82)
by localroger on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:17:29 PM EST

I tell ya, even the dog abused me. I don't get no respect.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
Did it now. (none / 1) (#87)
by The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 07:24:11 PM EST

hi rog!

___
I'm a pompous windbag, I take myself far too seriously, and I single-handedly messed up K5 by causing the fiction section to be created. --localroger

[ Parent ]
Nope, that was some other pervert (3.00 / 3) (#91)
by localroger on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 08:40:01 PM EST

I have been to Idaho, but not Washington state. So far the sheepnet does not seem to consider me a threat.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
ror (none / 1) (#227)
by The Amazing Idiot on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 01:37:35 AM EST

Bestiality?

Baaaa-aaaa-aaad!

[ Parent ]

Isn't that the truth&#8253; [nt] (none / 0) (#380)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:30:10 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Hi, Dad! /nt (3.00 / 5) (#80)
by localroger on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:16:24 PM EST



I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
So, if I understand correctly, (2.42 / 7) (#74)
by LilDebbie on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 01:47:13 PM EST

you write about zombie rape because nothing was ever good enough for mommy?

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
Hi, Mom! /nt (3.00 / 14) (#81)
by localroger on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:16:59 PM EST



I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
Abuse begets, er, fantasies of abuse. [nt] (none / 0) (#378)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:26:15 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Self-Pity (1.10 / 10) (#122)
by psychologist on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 06:36:46 AM EST

All that happened is that you find a useful way of chrystalising your teenage angst into a handy concept that you can blame. They are people, you know. As prone as you to making the same mistakes. Being older does not make them wiser, they did what they could do.

So it turned out wrong, okay, bad luck. Now face the fact that they are people who have done a lot for you. Show them that you are grateful in the way that they would appreciate it the most.

And important is also that you admit you are also at fault. It is always the easiest thing to blame current or later deficiencies on other people, or other circumstances. Learn to blame yourself, then accept yourself, and make the decision to learn how to handle these circumstances. Then you will see how easy it is to forgive others.

[ Parent ]

There is a lot more to the story (3.00 / 10) (#135)
by localroger on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:07:32 AM EST

All that happened is that you find a useful way of chrystalising your teenage angst into a handy concept that you can blame.

No, what happened is that with the help of a lot of people I met at university I was able to overcome what amounted to a lifelong brainwashing program.

They are people, you know. As prone as you to making the same mistakes. Being older does not make them wiser, they did what they could do.

Oddly, if the only way someone can think of to survive is to hold up a gas station, we are not prone to forgive them because, well, anybody can make a stupid mistake. Similarly, what my parents did was wrong. People like you who trivialize it enable people like them to keep doing bad things.

So it turned out wrong, okay, bad luck. Now face the fact that they are people who have done a lot for you. Show them that you are grateful in the way that they would appreciate it the most.

You really shouldn't make comments like this when you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. While I did say I didn't talk to my parents for seventeen years, I left home in 1984. Do the math. And I have always said I was glad for the early experience of visiting my father's lab, and the fact that they sent me to a quality secondary school. Those are the things that made it possible to pick up the pieces after they train wreck they made of my passage into adulthood. However, if you give half the proceeds of your gas station robbery to the United Way, it still doesn't absolve you of holding up the gas station.

And important is also that you admit you are also at fault.

You know, psychologist, you really shouldn't make comments like this when you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. All I can say is that among the people who knew me at the time there is nobody who would think this statement is even sane.

Learn to blame yourself, then accept yourself, and make the decision to learn how to handle these circumstances. Then you will see how easy it is to forgive others.

Ah yes, obviously if I elect to run a gas station (though to make the metaphor really accurate I'd have had to be born into the gas station business) it's my fault that somebody else can't figure out a better way to pay their rent than holding me up.

And you know, people who run gas stations in bad neighborhoods have a way of dealing with this problem that doesn't involve self-hatred and accepting that some people are just gonna make an unfortunate mistake. And some people deal with their family problems that way. Which is why when I read about some kid who blew away his parents with the family shotgun, my first reaction is usually to wonder what the fuck they did to him. Not always an appropriate reaction, I know, but no less appropriate than your reaction to my comment.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

Let me tell you a short story (1.33 / 6) (#152)
by psychologist on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:57:18 AM EST

I have a friend. He is schizophrenic. At one particular point, he thought I wanted to kill him. I do not know how he came about this idea, and it is of course very ridiculous, and I argued for hours daily with him, explaining why I did NOT want to kill him. He argued back rationally and logically, explaining why I wanted to kill him, and even figured out how I wanted to do this.

What I'm getting at is that this thought was a certainty in his mind. There was nothing I could do to change the thought. He was simply unable to see how silly the thought was. Similarly, try to convince a deeply religous person that God does not exist. It just does not work, they may listen, but nothing goes in.

You are the same way. You have made up your mind, and I'm not even sure you are ever going to be able to see things from another perspective. You blame them, and I do not think there is anything anyone can do to change this -- perhaps you are just too old.

There is a method I use to rid me of hate -- you need to soften your mind completely. You need to clear your mind of your prejudice, and actually emphasize with your the others. You are not doing this.

Imagine this situation: A man kills 20 people brutally because he has a mental disease. At the court trial, the jury has two choices. 1. Condemn the man to death. 2. Wipe his memory, fix what is wrong with his brain and re-integrate him into society.

Which would you take, and do you see the parallel?

[ Parent ]

Forgiveness (3.00 / 6) (#155)
by localroger on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 10:14:20 AM EST

Did you do the math? I am on speaking terms with my parents. That would not be possible if I felt about them today the way I did in 1984.

However, this does not change the fact that they did what they did. If I forgive the person who robbed me, it does not change the fact that I was robbed. To sweep the robbery under the rug and pretend it never happened goes beyond forgiveness to denial, a denial that can be self destructive if it prevents you from realistically dealing with other situations.

My parents treated me badly; there is a universal consensus about this among the people who knew me then. It is not just a matter of how *I* perceive the situation. It is as close to an objective fact as anything psychological can ever be. And it has had effects on my life which do not go away no matter what I think about their cause.

You seem to think I hate my parents. That has never been the case. I have regarded them as a danger to me, which I later found out was truer than I knew. It's no longer the case, which is one reason I am able to speak to them again.

As I have also written elsewhere, I think it is a mistake to form an expectation of forgiveness. If someone chooses to forgive that is great; it's a gift. But to require forgiviveness, to tell a victim that there is something wrong with them if they are unwilling to forgive, is wrong. If you expect forgiveness you have much less reason to avoid doing things that will need to be forgiven.

As for your thought experiment, in my philosophy a brain wipe is equivalent to death so there is really no difference in the outcomes. There might be some person walking around in your body, but it wouldn't be "you" any more. So I do see the parallel, but perhaps not the way you intended.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

Forgiveness (1.66 / 3) (#158)
by psychologist on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 10:50:08 AM EST

You are not required to forgive anybody. And by forgive, I am not talking about symbolically going up to them and saying: I'm sorry. I'm talking about, when you meet them, you can actually laugh with them openly, you can be relaxed with them. That is true forgiveness, when you learn to relax around the people you hate.

You are not required to forgive, but in the end, it will save you a lot of trouble, most of all when these people are your parents. The process of hating your own parents is a trauma on its own. Every person who dislikes his parents feels guilty about this, and when the parents die, it gets worse. There is a strong social bond to the parents, and severing this creates a feeling of 'floating' in society, without any place to go home to. In these cases, the person who feels the anger will blame it on the actions of the parents, and refuse to acknowledge, that the breaking of the bond, which he either initiated, or actively took part in, would be most responsible for the feelings.

There is no need to deny the evil that other people have done. But one can accept imperfection in other people, one can accept that others have failures, and that others are failing. When you humble yourself to that level, you will know with what superiority you can talk to them.

See, if you you fear or dislike a person, you make it very difficult to defeat the person. You react emotionally, your actions are not as rational as they should be. If you can understand their 'why', however, you will lose the fear that they are a danger to you, and so will be able to communicate effectively enough with them, that they are able to change.

About my thought experiment, okay, you view a brain-wipe as equivalent to death. Imagine that guy raped and murdered your child. After the brain-wipe, he comes to apply for a job where he will be working with you 8 hours a day. Would you accept him?

[ Parent ]

Yes (none / 1) (#165)
by localroger on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 11:13:38 AM EST

About my thought experiment, okay, you view a brain-wipe as equivalent to death. Imagine that guy raped and murdered your child. After the brain-wipe, he comes to apply for a job where he will be working with you 8 hours a day. Would you accept him?

If the technology was reliable and he was no longer dangerous then yes. In fact, if the technology was unreliable I might do it just to be in a position to keep an eye on him.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

Now the question would be (2.66 / 3) (#124)
by niom on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 06:40:34 AM EST

Why your parents were so fucked up?

[ Parent ]
Insecurity, mostly (3.00 / 7) (#132)
by localroger on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 08:35:11 AM EST

The other bad thing about the isolated nuclear family is that the parents have no support when things are shaky. Everything is their responsibility and there is nobody to pat them on the back or scold them if they are screwing things up. This is how it is possible for families way more dysfunctional than mine to go on for years, until somebody snaps and commits murder or finally goes to the police.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
so what is your sexual dysfunction? (1.50 / 2) (#188)
by tweetsybefore on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:52:05 PM EST

you like bondage?

I'm racist and I hate niggers.
[ Parent ]
Ageplay is my guess (none / 1) (#244)
by livus on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 06:14:32 AM EST

and he likes writing stories about incest.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
What I've written about (3.00 / 2) (#286)
by localroger on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:57:07 PM EST

Actually what I've written more about than anything else is the relationship between regular humans and various godlike beings. You could make a case that that goes back to my parents too, but in a different way. And when I write about the humans having sex, well, I have written one incest scene. I have also written a cannibalism scene, and that's not my bag of tea either.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
Aww Roger, I know that (3.00 / 2) (#308)
by livus on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 06:30:32 PM EST

I was just taking a cheap shot, like the walking tabloid I am. I don't care if you're into age play, or even macrophilia, I still love you.

As long as your "godlike beings" don't include Furry Barney The Dinosaur, that is.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

All I'm gonna say... (3.00 / 3) (#285)
by localroger on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:52:23 PM EST

Warm. Very warm.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
pedophilia? n/t (none / 0) (#310)
by tweetsybefore on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 06:39:39 PM EST



I'm racist and I hate niggers.
[ Parent ]
*sigh* (none / 0) (#321)
by localroger on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 09:02:38 PM EST

Cold.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
bestiality? [nt] (none / 0) (#397)
by beergut on Thu Jul 21, 2005 at 08:24:19 PM EST


No man escapes when freedom fails; the best men rot in filthy jails.
Those who cried, "Appease! Appease!", are hanged by those they tried to please.
[ Parent ]

Candle wax dripped onto nipples. I win. [nt] (none / 1) (#381)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:33:08 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Family model.. (none / 1) (#318)
by Anonymous Lemming on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 08:47:36 PM EST

I'm not sure what is implied in the use of the word "modern", but I couldn't say that your experience is a good model for anyone. If anything I think the "system" to regulate families is actually too agressive in taking away children, it's bass ackwards in ripping appart good families and leaving together ones that might be better off otherwise. Ripping appart the good ones is just something that's impossible to justify. Government, as usual, is not the answer.
The only way to fix the families of the world is for every mother and father to step up to the plate and get their acts together (this means you too, K5). To provide good loving nurturing homes for the children. A functional loving family is probably the best support an individual can get. I'm not sure what you think the ideal is, but this is what I am striving to build in my home with our first child on the way.

[ Parent ]
The ideal (3.00 / 2) (#322)
by localroger on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 09:13:20 PM EST

...is distributed parenting. I used the word "modern" because the current family model really is modern, really dating back only to the post WWII years. Before that even Western society tended to have an extended family model where grandparents, aunts, uncles, and trusted nonfamily adult acquaintances lived in close proximity and shared the burden of parenthood. This kept a lot of stress off the biological parents and insured that if any of those adults did do something untoward, another adult would be likely to hear about it and it would be dealt with instead of festering for years.

In non-Western societies parenting was often distributed across an entire tribal unit instead of just biological families, which would actually be a more practical solution in a world with the kind of travel and family disruption that is common today. The main thing is that no adult has absolute authority over any child; if an adult does something abusive, there are others to whom the child can turn and who might be expected to stand up for the child. This is what is missing in the modern isolated nuclear family and the result is very often tragedy much worse than anything related here.

(Of course you can also find examples of where this extended parenting with consensus allows the perpetuation of ghastly rituals like infibulation, but I would expect the global cultural melting pot to eventually fix those problems in the same way a properly working extended family fixes the asshole parent problem.)

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

Do-Gooders (none / 0) (#359)
by duffbeer703 on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 11:27:11 AM EST

Public housing is a great example of how the government accelerated the transformation of the American family.

Black families, for instance were one centered around a an extensive network of extended family and a distributed community family-network centered around the church.

The do-gooders of the 30's-70's smashed these connections by forcibly breaking up tight-knit neighborhoods and moving them to scattered & impersonal public housing complex. In New York City alone, over 900,000 minority households were forcibly moved by public authorities.

[ Parent ]

Just out of interest, (2.50 / 6) (#72)
by Tragedy of the Kurons on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 01:09:41 PM EST

did anything happen to your brothers? Did you tell your parents, or even the police?

Because if someone molested me, family or not, I like to think I'd beat the everliving shit out of them. But I guess that's just me. Still, revenge could be therapeutic, and they might go on to abuse somebody else.

"That is a mean website. Some people are just mean and rude."

Nothing (3.00 / 6) (#79)
by SocratesGhost on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:02:49 PM EST

I didn't even talk about this until I was almost finished from college, something like 12 years later. My mom's reaction was, "I'm such a terrible mother." To save her and myself any embarrasment, I didn't press the matter further but also I decided that it wasn't going to be the defining event in my life and it was best if I just move on.

On a related note, I didn't tell my dad until just a week ago. I thought I already told him but he was surprised when I told him in passing. If this publishes, I plan on sending him a link so that he'll get the story.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
Another Good Book (3.00 / 7) (#84)
by collideiscope on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:22:05 PM EST

"Writing to Heal" by James Pennebaker.

Oh yeah - and all the people who are trolling this article can eat a dick.

-------------------------------
Hope is a disease. Get infected.

Wow (2.57 / 14) (#86)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 07:03:03 PM EST

I knew that childhood sexual abuse was traumatic and could cause psychological problems but I never understood the extent of it.  It actually drove you to read Ayn Rand books.  That's awful.  You have my sympathy.

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour
The obvious needs to be stated. (1.00 / 13) (#88)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 07:24:28 PM EST

Of course this could throw the monkey wrench into any potential relationship. Those californian women love their strapons, but for you it's impossible to just lay there and have your prostate massaged with her dildo while she taunts you about her "fat purple cock, do you like it little sissy boy?".

Do not let this affect your sex life. Keep going to therapy, let them heal you.

Pretty soon, she'll be inviting over that bisexual neighbor Lance, so you can finally know the bliss that is having a cock in your ass, even as yours is in hers.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.

Wait, the submitter is male? [nt] (none / 0) (#379)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:28:06 PM EST



[ Parent ]
OT: People tend not to mention these things (3.00 / 11) (#96)
by kelbear on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 09:50:56 PM EST

The 1 in 10 statistic could be questionable, but it sounds entirely plausible. People tend not to say anything because it really does feel like something's wrong with you because it happened to you.

It had happened to me back when I was 10. Dentist had a habit of putting his hands in my pants. I remember he explained that it was "to comfort me". At some point I'd stopped going to that dentist. I was too young to realize what he was doing was wrong, and it was headed off before anything more happened. I don't particularly care who knows about this story because I lucked out and nothing big happened. Even with something so small as this, people refuse to believe me, as if I could have any reason to fabricate such a story. I'm not lying to garner sympathy points, because like I said, nothing big really happened.

Problem is, people who really experience more serious abuse won't seek help because they feel that people won't understand, or will accuse them of lying. Like suicide-talk, this sort of thing really should be taken seriously by anybody who hears a clue about it from their friends. Chances are, they won't speak directly about it, but dance around it timidly.
*I am dead, leave a message and I'll get back to you as soon as possible.*

Self-help group (3.00 / 15) (#97)
by schrotie on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 09:59:49 PM EST

I was completely determined to stay out of this discussion. But the trolls got me.

A decade and a bit ago I was quite open about it. Most of my friends knew plus an amazingly large populace of strangers. I stopped that. Few people from my current surroundings know, and I prefer it to stay like that. People simply cannot deal with it.

But there are quite some comments that throw abuse at Socrates and the other wimps. I wonder what makes you trolls behave like this. I don't believe in good or evil, so the simple explanation is blocked. Some of you probably have your own severe emotional problems, but some might simply not know what you're talking about. I hope to persuade those of you to not kick somebody who is already lying on the ground.

The bare facts:
It was a perfect stranger, he had no lolly though [bitter joke removed by the über-editor]. It was a one time event. My family was mostly dysfunctional at that time.

I always thought I had a happy childhood while childhood lasted. I still think that many "normal" people suffer worse from emotional terror that is common in families. But still, considering my childhood, it looks I am a lucky example of what's called "Resilienz" in German. In short it means I am very intact compared to other victims of sexual violence. I did have problems though, that led me to seek help. I never considered a therapist - maybe because my mother is a psychiatrist.

Whatever, I went to a self-help group. This was not some big organization like AA or WW, it was just a handful of men with similar experiences. We met once a week and talked. And it helped me a lot. But I'll come to this later. Here goes for the trolls. Some of they guys in that group were utterly dysfunctional. They were in their twenties or thirties and all they could do was survive. Others managed to hold a job, they just suffered a lot. I also met some female victims. My impression is that raping a child has a very good chance of destroying its life. You trolls think other people got problems with partners, too? Problems with procrastination, too? Well suckers, you ain't seen nothing yet. You probably misjudge the scope of the problems.

There are some like me who get out of it with little damage. It very likely helped my case that it was the stranger and not in my family. It probably also helped that he was caught due to my own initiative: I spotted him in the tram and called the police (I was eight) since my mother was indisposed and my dad dead. They started a major deployment and caught half a dozen guys who matched my description. Riding on a police car myself I identified him. He did not even get jail time, but that is another story. Funny, this is the first time ever (25 years?) I'm boasting with this story. But I think that is the reason the damage was very limited in my case. It might even have contributed to my psychological strength because of that adventurous episode.

So what helped me? One does not talk about it. You can tell other people. You'll get all kinds of reactions, but you'll get no talk. Talk is cheap? Not in this case. You can only really talk with people who share your experience and finding them is next to impossible outside of such self-help groups. Talking helped me form "normal" mental models of what happens. Before that my strategy was to wonder that this supposedly destructive event did not destroy me. Otherwise I would not think about it - repression perfected. If it surfaced because somebody started a discussion on the topic (happened maybe half a dozen times in a decade) I shut down the CPU and went to internal emigration. But it did not harm me at all. Hah. So the trauma was mostly just shut away and left alone. Talking re-merged that part of my personality with the rest. I think the most important part of my healing process was to accept Mr. Rapist as part of my family. Before I used to consider him a stranger (which he was) who has nothing to do with my life. And I hated him. Today he is an important part of my life. He is family. I also don't really hate him anymore. He's probably worse off than me.

One thing that did not fit anywhere else and is thus saved for last: All the guys in the group had two things in common: We were great procrastinators and we can't pee while your watching. I still have both of these traits, but I'm working on the peeing ;-)

It's really hard.. (3.00 / 7) (#108)
by vhold on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 04:13:08 AM EST

Do you remember (assuming you read the hhgttgs) when Arthur Dent thought a total stranger was eating his biscuits?  His first reaction was.. I'm not trained for this, I have no idea how to react.

When somebody told me they had been sexually abused as a child, it was a very similar moment.  I.. just had no reaction, I had no idea what they needed, wanted, or anything.  I basically just went "oh shit.. fuck.. I don't know what to say."

That's probably a pretty decent immediate response, but it leaves an awkward pale over things after that.

How do you deal with that long term?  That's much more difficult.  I basically figured they just needed a friend so I'd keep acting normally, but I guess it was always sitting there spinning in the back of my mind so I probably did subconciously change.  There were probably jokes I was less likely to tell, things I was less likely to say..   I would think more about how I'd phrase things..  He was extra sensitive and probably picked up on some of that..  Basically the friendship became strained.

Regardless of whether or not I changed, he had changed quite a bit.  It was repressed memories that were coming back to them and he was really tore up.  He was taking things out emotionally on his friends and we just couldn't relate or cope, including people he hadn't told.  It's a pretty complex situation, but basically, he ended up calling off virtually all his friendships, some of which he'd been best friends with since he was 6.

It sucks to even think about it.  He was really an amazingly honest and nice person, but shit just hit the fan so hard... he actually was briefly my enemy as he tried to turn our mutual friends against me.. and still being relatively young, I just focused on defending myself and he ended up turning almost everybody into his enemy.

Even when I put it all in retrospect, I don't know how things could have gone better.  We just weren't prepared for that kind of thing.  I havn't talked to him in a few years, I mostly hope he is doing well, but I have to admit I sometimes get pangs of anger over the way he took things out on us.

[ Parent ]

That is hard to deal with. (none / 0) (#263)
by Fon2d2 on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:26:38 AM EST

That kind of situation is a really akward place to be in.

The forgiveness is hard too. I've been there as well, although with a different friend. She never talked about her problems but one day she just started getting really nasty. I guess maybe she just had a problem getting close to people, but I was definitely getting flashes of anger for a while afterwords.

It's funny how some things are so hard to get over.

[ Parent ]

Might just be me (3.00 / 2) (#314)
by schrotie on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 07:00:05 PM EST

I'll try to relate things that might have happened between you and your friend.

You bloody assholes have no idea what you are talking about. I went through it. This topic is mine not yours. Leave me alone.

Then the flashbacks would come and with it the pain. Talking becomes really really hard. It requires a lot of energy and achieves so little. Basically you guys leech my energy and give me nothing. [Talking about it (face to face) is still hard for me and it still requires a lot of power - a quarter of a decade later.] Finally the ultimate feeling left by the rape would take me: drowning in a sea of powerlessness. Powerlessness for me always was the most important aspect of it. Powerlessness: corner a rat and see what happens.

So I told you right? You know now. So each time I look into your face I expect to find pity or some clumsy attempt to help me. Pity is the last thing I need. I need to handle the shame and I need the opposite of pity, I need to feel powerful, strong. Basically I can't stand you anymore because of this catch-22. And my thoughts those little buggers start running around in narrow circles each time I see you. You remind me of more pain than I can handle.

I think this never happened between me and a friend of mine. As I said I was extremely lucky. But what I described are feelings I personally experienced. They were just not strong enough to do much harm.

[ Parent ]

Yeah, it's the "Catch-22"... (none / 1) (#332)
by Viliam Bur on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 05:23:54 AM EST

I want to talk about the problem, because the problem was never solved; it is an unfinished puzzle. I do not want to talk about the problem; I have already spent too much time with it, now I want to be free.

I want your pity; I need to be assured that what happened was wrong, and that I was not guilty. I do not want your pity; I want to be normal like others, and your pity puts me into inferior position, it reminds me that I am not like you.

I want to know that my experience was not normal; I need to believe that the world is a safe place where things like this happen only exceptionally. I do not want to know that my experience was not normal; if our experiences differ so much, how can we ever understand each other? Maybe it will be easier for you to avoid me than to share my pain. Are you strong enough not to be scared by my emotions? If I say what I really feel, will you ever want to talk with me again?

[ Parent ]

I'm not quite sure... (none / 0) (#338)
by Fon2d2 on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 10:01:33 AM EST

which perspective you are trying to portray. Yours involving your friend. Yours involving other people, including myself. Mine involving my friend. Mine involving other people.

If I understand your Catch-22 properly you want to talk about the problem but you hate the standard clumsy attempts at reassurance. What you want is somebody that gets it because describing the problem to people that don't is just so damn degrading.

I will grant that my situation is probably trivial compared to yours, but the way you describe it in your original post is just so damn familiar. So let me describe my situation and see if it seems familiar to you.

I've always been a pushover. People take advantage of my very easily. I guess it's because I have a very hard time hurting someone when they're down, and sometimes people take advantage of that sympathy. I met B maybe 3 years ago and was friends with her for a little over 2 years. As far as I could tell, she didn't really have much in the way of friends. She was just akward that way. Nevertheless I put forth the effort, and consequently she ended up spending a lot of time with me. A little over a year ago I started to notice a change in her. She seemed like she was improving and finally becoming more positive, so I introduced her to some of my other friends. But a few months later it had all fallen apart.

It's hard to talk about it now because I don't feel like I can convey the pure negative emotion I was feeling. She really had become a leech and I was still putting myself in the position of trying to be open and there for her. Of still trying to save and preserve the friendship. So what happened? It basically meant she could adopt the most flippant attitude and treat me as callously as she felt. But this callousness was not in a direct manner. Oh sure, she was trying to save the friendship. She wanted to remain friends, but she didn't mean it. Her attitdue and body langauge said different, and I wasn't paying attention. And she tried to turn friends against me as well. Those same friends I had just introduced her to. I am still amazed that I got an un-announced late night visit from said friends to discuss my treatment of her. I went to a very low place. It was very hard to fall asleep at night. Very hard to focus at work. When she called and I 'had' to talk to her on the phone, I would physically shake. Imagine somebody with advanced Parkinson's. When I described the problem to other people or thought about it too much, I would have barely controlled tremors. Eventually said friends decided to let her go (for their own emotional health) and began telling me things B said and did behind my back. I really got anger flashes then. It was over the top. It was beyond reproach. People that cared at all about others did not act this way. This piece describes some of my feelings at the time. It's one of my journal entries from that point and describes B as well as one of my college roommates from 8 years earlier who was also really bad.

I finally did cut it off, but ultimately in a non-climatic way. I just hung up on her one day while she was yelling over the phone. That was it. She knew. I never heard from her again. I wanted to do more. I wanted to chew her out, cut her down, make her feel the way I felt so she could really know how she makes others feel. I wanted revenge on her. It was hard to let go of that. And the feelings didn't stop right away either. Like I said I used to get tremors just talking about it. It's just been a slow dissipating process since then.

[ Parent ]

Mix Up (none / 0) (#339)
by schrotie on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 10:27:03 AM EST

Viliam Bur found very good words in his reply to the comment you answered to. That comment was about me and old friends, I don't have these feelings anymore, I learned to talk about it. I mixed up your comment and the comment you were replying to. I assumed B had told you of a similar experience and then things went bad.

I like your poem.

[ Parent ]

Ahhh (none / 0) (#367)
by MKalus on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 01:17:32 PM EST

<blockquote>A decade and a bit ago I was quite open about it. Most of my friends knew plus an amazingly large populace of strangers. I stopped that. Few people from my current surroundings know, and I prefer it to stay like that. People simply cannot deal with it.</blockquote>

I think everybody goes through this during the whole "healing" thing. I think in part it is a "Stay away, I am damaged good, don't you see how I bleed? Don't come too close or you get something on your nice new clothes."

<blockquote>You can only really talk with people who share your experience and finding them is next to impossible outside of such self-help groups.</blockquote>

True. Because from the outside you look normal, and most people don't have the imagination to "see" what really happened, much less the emotional connection (haha) to understand that.
-- Michael
[ Parent ]

Currently me (none / 0) (#369)
by schrotie on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 06:57:41 PM EST

I think everybody goes through this during the whole "healing" thing. I think in part it is a "Stay away, I am damaged good, don't you see how I bleed? Don't come too close or you get something on your nice new clothes."
Are you talking about my current condition? It's nothing like that. I have very few close friends (nothing to do with that, I was like that before). Of those few most know because I know them for a rather long time. There are a couple of people - colleagues - I really like. Why should I tell them? I wouldn't know how to deal with that if I were them. I'd probably listen, maybe say something about self-help groups and ignore it further on. I could just accept it, "dealing with it" is out the question. So if I with quite some experience in the matter would have such problems, why should I bother other people? It doesn't exactly make good conversation. Also I guess I'm as "healed" as I'll ever be. It's a long time ago, I accepted it and I can talk about it. I am who am. I am not perfect but certainly for more than one reason. I'd like to improve certain traits in me, but I would not call that "healing". I'm not over it and will never be. It is a part of me.

[ Parent ]
No no... (none / 0) (#390)
by MKalus on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:54:56 PM EST

Are you talking about my current condition?

I was refering that one does that at one point or the other, the "telilng people without them asking".

I did it too. In the meantime I have "smartened up" so to speak.

. I could just accept it, "dealing with it" is out the question. So if I with quite some experience in the matter would have such problems, why should I bother other people?

Sometimes someone who listened though is what you want, no? At least for me at times it was. The idea to be able to tell and not be judged for that, someone who doesn't run away when they hear that. That was what it was for me about until I realized what you did: No good.

Also I guess I'm as "healed" as I'll ever be. It's a long time ago, I accepted it and I can talk about it. I am who am. I am not perfect but certainly for more than one reason. I'd like to improve certain traits in me, but I would not call that "healing". I'm not over it and will never be. It is a part of me.

Yes, same here, but once you accept yourself, things are a little bit easier and you tell the story differently.

Someone who I knew for a while and was poking around in my past told me once (after I told them): "You talk about it like it happened to someone else." At which point I realized I did. It was in the past, it was "over" and I was someone else now (though still having the "scars").

BTW, as a reminder I got this (not done yet).

BTW, I still do have "reflexes" that I developed over the years, but I am working on trying to suppress them. Not always easy, but getting better.

"Healed"..... Yeah, maybe one day, but always with a scar, that much is for sure.
-- Michael
[ Parent ]

what's your gender? (1.12 / 8) (#105)
by tiger on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 03:40:13 AM EST

I got tired of reading your story, so maybe I missed it.

Are you a man or a woman?

You claim your "abuser" was male, but you also claim to have a "girlfriend" which implies you are male. Maybe I misread. Can you clarify?

--
Americans :— Say no to male genital mutilation. In Memory of the Sexually Mutilated Child



wow (none / 0) (#106)
by IlIlIIllIIlllIII on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 03:54:45 AM EST

troll or not, that was an incredibly insulting comment on so many levels. do you hate the guy? you have my congratulations.

[ Parent ]
Hehe. You got diddled. (1.00 / 15) (#117)
by Medicated on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 05:56:55 AM EST

Seriously: hehe.

fuck you (none / 1) (#136)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:09:27 AM EST

you are a fucking piece of shit.

[ Parent ]
You bit on a troll, gg [nt] (none / 0) (#382)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:36:31 PM EST



[ Parent ]
In some cultures (1.00 / 11) (#125)
by ChaosMage on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 07:16:38 AM EST

..incest is acceptable. Maybe you should go and live in one of those with your ilk.

where, Kentucky? (3.00 / 5) (#129)
by forgotten on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 08:17:18 AM EST

nt

--

[ Parent ]

fuck you (1.20 / 5) (#137)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:10:24 AM EST

you are a fucking asshole. shut your mouth

[ Parent ]
Excellent (3.00 / 4) (#127)
by shinnin on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 07:32:40 AM EST

thanks for a very worthwhile read. And despite the dissenters, I feel it was indeed a courageous post.

ut how does all of this relate to a self-defeating perfectionism?

You've only lightly touched on the symptoms; I'd be interested to know what the symptoms of your self-defeating perfectionism truly are.

Well written. (2.50 / 2) (#138)
by paxman on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:18:23 AM EST

You write well. It's a refreshing change.

I disagree (none / 0) (#171)
by army of phred on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:07:50 PM EST

I tried to parse the third paragraph from the bottom, my analysis went a few hundred lines before I gave up.

"Republicans are evil." lildebbie
"I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about." motormachinemercenary
"my wife is getting a blowjob" ghostoft1ber
[ Parent ]
Bah. (none / 0) (#384)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:40:28 PM EST

Pretty much <i>anyone</i> could make a sordid tale of underage junktouching sound harrowing. You're a good writer if you can make the mundane interesting, not for treating the submissions box like a Californian self-help group.

[ Parent ]
Trauma (1.05 / 18) (#160)
by psychologist on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 10:55:59 AM EST

This is called childhood experimentation, not molestation. You may have percieved it as bad, but the others are right, GET OVER IT.

Let me tell you what happened to me when I was a child: I saw men being burnt, I saw dead bodies littered on the street, I saw people tied together and cut into pieces. I've been whipped in school, I've been publicly disgraced and I've been extorted for money by old men. All this happened as a child.

I would not ever dream of blaming any of my current problems on these. No doubt, these things were part of my formative years, yet I have absorbed them, and not let them affect me in any way I can observe.

Learn from these experiences, make them part of you, and  make them make you stronger. Like depression. Everyone who has been through and is over depression knows how happy the world is, how happy it is to just be normal. Remind yourself of that.

eat shit fucking asshole (1.66 / 3) (#161)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 11:03:02 AM EST

you are fucking piece of shit that belongs in a shallow grave to be trampled upon by pigs

[ Parent ]
What? (3.00 / 1) (#163)
by psychologist on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 11:11:09 AM EST

Do we have anger issues? Maybe you would like to blame your parents for that?

[ Parent ]
hey asshole (none / 1) (#167)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 11:27:38 AM EST

maybe you should take some personal responsibility and learn to not be a dumbfuck

[ Parent ]
looks like Ghost got himself (none / 0) (#176)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:28:52 PM EST

a trolling account.

[ Parent ]
nope (none / 0) (#177)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:31:28 PM EST

just a person who understands and wont let your bullshit pass

[ Parent ]
tell us the story of when you were raped, then. (1.00 / 3) (#178)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:32:43 PM EST



[ Parent ]
so you can troll it? (none / 0) (#179)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:34:23 PM EST



[ Parent ]
no i wont troll it one bit (none / 0) (#180)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:35:19 PM EST

i promise

[ Parent ]
fuck off idiot (none / 0) (#181)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:35:49 PM EST



[ Parent ]
just so you know (1.33 / 3) (#182)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:37:52 PM EST

i only troll cos my daddy touched me wrong when i was little and so when i grew up i started trolling everyone and its like i cant stop my daddy did this to me its not my fault i keep trolling its the abuse why did it have to happen to me why why i troll because i was raped its justified i cant control it i can control the abuse i was raped dont you understand that

[ Parent ]
good one (none / 1) (#183)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:43:31 PM EST

you are scum. of course that is inflating your "troller's ego" oh well. you are so shocking like all the other e-racists and e-nazis! good job!!! here is a star for yuo: *

[ Parent ]
Of course he won't, he hates trolls [nt] (none / 0) (#383)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:39:01 PM EST



[ Parent ]
you're doing nothing (none / 0) (#185)
by army of phred on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:47:38 PM EST

but driveby insults, so at best you're just trolling trolls. lets view a few of your gems:

  • nope

    just a person who understands and wont let your bullshit pass

    (I'm pretty sure just about everything passes you by)

  • ok

    1. you are a fucking moron. period. 2. i hope your death is slow, painful, dehumanizing, and humiliating. next your grave: shallow and trampled upon by an infinite stampede of wild boar

    (heh that was a real beauty, that was posted in a thread with me calling for personal responsibility. Yeah, evil me eh?)

  • guess what

    your thought processes are idiotic. please die.

    (more demonstrations of solid rhetorical skills)

Yeah really, some very impressive dialog indeed there junior.

"Republicans are evil." lildebbie
"I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about." motormachinemercenary
"my wife is getting a blowjob" ghostoft1ber
[ Parent ]

well well (none / 1) (#186)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:50:50 PM EST

why don't you take some personal responsibilty and stop trolling trolls that troll trolls jerk.

[ Parent ]
Um, no. Never felt the need. (none / 1) (#202)
by SocratesGhost on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 04:02:56 PM EST

I can stand up for myself without recruiting "personas" to strengthen my case.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
exactly (2.85 / 7) (#164)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 11:12:26 AM EST

"I would not ever dream of blaming any of my current problems on these. No doubt, these things were part of my formative years, yet I have absorbed them, and not let them affect me in any way I can observe." and thats why you are the asshole that you are now.

[ Parent ]
The irony, oh god the irony. (2.85 / 7) (#203)
by caine on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 04:20:18 PM EST

You're unaffected, yet you work as a mercenary? Assuming you don't just say you do to give yourself an image of toughness. Either way I'd say we can see right there what your childhood led to.

--

[ Parent ]

This from someone who (3.00 / 3) (#210)
by livus on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 08:54:05 PM EST

thinks rape is okay because you think it isn't traumatic.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
Apples and Oranges (1.75 / 4) (#235)
by psychologist on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 04:50:42 AM EST

There is a thick line betweena child being anally raped by a grown man, and a child being touched in a sexual manner, like this article suggest happened.

[ Parent ]
reading comprehension (none / 0) (#242)
by livus on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 06:00:26 AM EST

the article did mention physical beatings and a significant age difference. Anyway, this doesn't change the fact that you think children sucking dick is fine. Or that women don't mind being raped.

Or that you are into wound fucking.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

Let's forget the whole wound rape thing, okay! (none / 0) (#247)
by psychologist on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 08:14:23 AM EST

What SICK SICK person would ever rape a wound! Besides, a bullet has a diameter of 33mm. You know how big a penis is?

A child sucking a penis does not realise what he is sucking. For all he knows, it is a milk-squirting lollipop.

Differenciate, do not impose your cultural bias on a moral issue.

[ Parent ]

I can aswer your question easily! (3.00 / 3) (#309)
by livus on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 06:33:47 PM EST

What SICK SICK person would ever rape a wound!

Why, THIS MAN of course!

Milk-squirting lollipop, eh? Is that what you tell them?

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

Abuse/incest? I don't think so. (1.00 / 14) (#168)
by Pig Hogger on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 11:45:16 AM EST

Firstly, are you a man or a woman? "Socrate ghost" is not very informative...

Now, you say you were molested by your stepbrother? He was not of the same blood as you, so it is most definitely not incest; just teens exploring sexuality, which only sickheads rotten by religion will find unacceptable.
--

Somewhere in Texas, a village is missing it's idiot

wow (2.66 / 3) (#169)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:00:12 PM EST

you are an idiot. is that what you tell the jury when you are on trial for rape? you were just exploring?

[ Parent ]
Definition of incest (3.00 / 3) (#201)
by SocratesGhost on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 04:01:23 PM EST

is any sexual activity that happens between family members. It doesn't require blood relations.

Also, would you allow high school freshmen to "explore" kids in the elementary schools? That's the age difference we're talking about.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
With consent, yes. [nt] (none / 0) (#385)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:41:45 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Thank you (2.75 / 4) (#184)
by f8alistic1 on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:43:56 PM EST

As a woman abused by several men within my family, I appreciate your courage in posting about this. I'm more than a decade older than you. The abuse happened at a time in history when nobody talked about such things and nobody interfered in the sacred nuclear family, no matter how dysfunctional.  Besides, my mom & stepfather kept us on the move so that no one would ever get to know us well. I learned early on not to form too many attachments because in a few months we'd move to a different part of Cali.

I've become so jaded that I'm surprised to find that someone wasn't molested as a child!! I hate the 'victim' mentality; I've tried very hard not to let it take over my life. Like you, I also have major control issues.  I have one child, a grown daughter, and was a very overprotective parent. I was determined to be a better parent than my mother, but I fucked her up in my own way--too involved and passed off a lot of my own fears onto her. I overcompensated for my upbringing in a totally opposite direction. She has issues of her own.

Please don't pay any attention to people like psychologist and pigfucker...they don't have a clue.  

I agree. (1.50 / 2) (#187)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:51:21 PM EST

The best way to deal with people who have opinions different to yours is to ignore them.

[ Parent ]
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL (3.00 / 3) (#189)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:54:48 PM EST

seems like you have a hard time doing that

[ Parent ]
could you please (1.50 / 2) (#190)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:58:26 PM EST

type 'lol' a few more times

[ Parent ]
aahhhhh (none / 0) (#191)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 01:06:15 PM EST

poor troll, cheer up.

[ Parent ]
i cant cheer up (3.00 / 2) (#192)
by I HATE TROLLS on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 01:07:21 PM EST

i'm living with the memories of childhood abuse

[ Parent ]
http://piv.pivpiv.dk/ (none / 0) (#194)
by crucifix on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 01:13:53 PM EST

http://piv.pivpiv.dk/

[ Parent ]
What a delightful link. (none / 0) (#256)
by Fon2d2 on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:09:32 AM EST

I will have to find some way to use that on my coworkers.

[ Parent ]
Oh, the irony of the parent comment. [nt] (none / 0) (#386)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:42:44 PM EST



[ Parent ]
I'm so sorry to hear that. (none / 0) (#257)
by Fon2d2 on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:11:37 AM EST

It sounds like you've had it especially bad. You have my sympathy.

[ Parent ]
On being unempathic... (3.00 / 9) (#193)
by BigZaphod on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 01:12:10 PM EST

"And I do tend to worry because I can be so unempathic to the hurt that I can cause others, particularly when I feel threatened. Sometimes, when my girlfriend and I fight, I can be a dirty fighter. At some point, I stop trying to win and start trying to hurt her. Even when she says stop, I can continue."

I do not have a history of sexual abuse or anything like that, but I've certainly experienced the above.  I feel terribly distant from the world much of the time - so distant that it can become hard to really feel anything for anyone.  While my fiancee and I have never really had a fight in the 2+ years we've been together, I do find myself with the same basic tendency that you speak of at times - especially when my plans get interrupted by other things somewhat outside our control.

I've never known what to do about it, either.  It annoys me.  I get angry with myself but I'll just keep doing it or almost doing it.  Of course that doesn't solve anything.  Ever have days where you wish you couldn't be yourself?  That's how I feel quite frequently.

If I had a solution for this part of things, I'd be sharing it, but I don't.  I guess I only share this because I want to help you to know that not all emotional problems you may be feeling need be caused by sexual abuse.  It is easy to take one extreme element of your past and apply it as the probable cause for anything that seems "not normal" about a person, but that's a rather simplistic view of things.  Emotion is a very complex beast, and like the weather, there's never one single cause of a given condition.  So while in some senses it may feel good to have something to point at and something to blame, take care in the application of your anger, lest you travel down a long road of bitter disappointment that does not go where you want to end up.

"We're all patients, there are no doctors, our meds ran out a long time ago and nobody loves us." - skyknight

Agreed (none / 0) (#270)
by SocratesGhost on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:55:30 AM EST

I don't think people are determined by single events. We're multi-causative creatures. But I would suggest that when it comes to actions, that many things have their influence. The responsible person seeks to diminish the influences that are negative and unproductive.

If, for example, I don't call my mom for her birthday (and to date, I've given her probably 1 or 2 mother's day gifts and fewer birthday gifts) it may be because she's a bad person, it may be because she's tedious, it may be because she makes me feel guilty, it may be because I hold her accountable for letting my abuse happen under her very eyes. Probably, it's all of those.

However, if we have none of those bad influences and if we love our mothers, and if we consider the idea of birthdays important to celebrate, we should be curious why we didn't if we willfully neglect one.

And so it goes with even mundane behaviors. All of us may have a tendency to be abusive verbally to loved ones, but by and large, I think we all recognize this to be a bad thing. In that case, why do we allow our more primitive emotions to override our rationality? Again, we should be curious and we should take responsibility for finding out the sources so that we can understand them and address them and minimize their future influence. Ignoring our basic impulses isn't what makes us human; that's what makes us beasts. Addressing our impulses, ah, there's the humanity.

When I look back at my own personal history, I find a set of circumstances that could have an enormous influence on my current behavior. Influence, mind you, and not determine. The influence may manifest by contributing to feelings of self-loathing, guilt, or anger or it may influence via reactive behaviorisms. If we do not address them or if we ignore them, they do not go away. I have been ignoring them for 20 or more years so from experience, I can tell you that they do not.

As a result, I think it's worthwhile to explore how my reaction to those circumstances influences who I am today, especially considering that they were developed during a period of immaturity and perhaps were never fully corrected. (Reiteration to the trolls who think I am transferring responsibility: to explore how my reaction to those circumstances...) Since there was no adult to guide me through those troubles, it's very likely that I developed patterns of thoughts and behaviors that are not healthy.

And then, after I feel satisfied that my incestuous past has little influence on my life, if I still have bad impulses or behave unproductively, I'll continue to face off against them, ask them their grievance and see if I can set those things to right.

But one thing at a time.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
I read a book recently... (none / 1) (#199)
by J T MacLeod on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 03:15:26 PM EST

Called "Twice Adopted" by Michael Reagan.  

It concerns this.  It was an excellent read.  

It affected me in many ways, but it was overall theraputic.  My harder experiences as a child were a different form of abuse, not nearly as damaging, but I still found solace in it.  

Never been raped... (3.00 / 8) (#204)
by slashcart on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 05:52:11 PM EST

I grew up in idyllic circumstances. I was never raped or injured as a child. I had a father who was protective and tolerant, and a mother who was neurotic but still decent and well-disposed toward me.

Thus it was with a high opinion of human nature that I entered college. I felt that almost all parents were basically decent and loving toward their children. I believed that "abusive" parents were ones that were critical of their children, or became annoyed without reason.

In college I became known for my calm and non-judgemental manner. In fact, I became something of a de-facto therapist for people. As a result, people would start telling me their problems. Honestly, I wasn't very interested in their problems, but I felt an obligation to hear them out and be consoling.

Then, in college, people started to admit to me (in hushed tones, after I'd gotten to know them) that they'd been raped as children. More than once, they went into some detail about the circumstances in which they were raped.

The first time this happened, my response was shock and alarm. I thought to myself: "WHAT?! Fuck! I can't even believe it. I CAN'T EVEN FUCKING BELIEVE IT! What the fuck is WRONG with those people (the girl's parents)." Of course, outwardly I maintained composure and expressed sympathy. After awhile I wrote the thing off as a fluke. These things are incredibly rare, after all.

But then the stories kept coming. By now, about seven people have admitted serious sexual abuse to me. When I patiently hear them out, they usually go into horrific detail. I suppose they wanted to get it off their chests, but after awhile, I wanted people to stop telling me these things. It changes my whole outlook, for the worse.

By now I've gained two insights about this situation. 1) People who claim they've "gotten over it" are lying. They're usually worse than the others. 2) Some parents are utterly contemptible and disgusting. They are dark beyond redemption. They have lost all hint of guilt or of normal sympathy to one's own children. They make me want to vomit. In fact, I'm glad I haven't met the parents of one fellow I know, because if I met them I might be, for the first time in my life, provoked to violence.

Oops... (3.00 / 4) (#205)
by slashcart on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 06:21:41 PM EST

But then the stories kept coming. By now, about seven people have admitted serious sexual abuse to me. When I patiently hear them out, they usually go into horrific detail. I suppose they wanted to get it off their chests, but after awhile, I wanted people to stop telling me these things. It changes my whole outlook, for the worse.
When I wrote this remark, I certainly wasn't meaning to denigrate people who share stories of their own abuse. I was just revealing a private, temporary sentiment of my own.

I absolutely support people who need to unload the emotional burden of having been abused.

[ Parent ]

Jeez, don't worry. (none / 1) (#372)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:09:32 PM EST

No sane person is going to think you're a monster just because you eventually become fed up of people telling you in agonising detail about how and when their parents raped them. Christ, I think that would begin to get anybody down.

[ Parent ]
A Different Oops (none / 1) (#278)
by virg on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:23:17 PM EST

> By now I've gained two insights about this situation. 1) People who claim they've "gotten over it" are lying. They're usually worse than the others.

Not a good analysis. The ones who really did "get over it" would likely not have felt the need to confide the story in you, so you're only seeing those who say they've gotten past it but still feel the need to talk about it, which is usually a good sign they haven't really gotten past it. Extrapolating that to everyone who says they're over it is incorrect.

Virg
"Imagine (it won't be hard) that most people would prefer seeing Carrot Top beaten to death with a bag of walnuts." - Jmzero
[ Parent ]
Realizing how pervasive abuse is can be hard, yes (none / 1) (#298)
by joedecker on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 02:48:35 PM EST

But then the stories kept coming. By now, about seven people have admitted serious sexual abuse to me. When I patiently hear them out, they usually go into horrific detail. I suppose they wanted to get it off their chests, but after awhile, I wanted people to stop telling me these things.

I have sympathy. What I chose to do about it was different (I found an organization that makes a difference), but even so one of the most difficult things abut that work is maintaining joy and stability in life when you've heard dozens, or even hundreds of stories of rape, childhood sexual abuse, domestic violence and so on. I do find that being able to do something positive helps me, but then, so does a long photography trip.

--- There's no such thing as too much film. --Joe Decker
[ Parent ]

What puts the horror in the horrific details. (none / 0) (#320)
by Rubiconster on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 08:59:29 PM EST

"But then the stories kept coming. By now, about seven people have admitted serious sexual abuse to me. When I patiently hear them out, they usually go into horrific detail."

What is so horrific about the detail, were they severely physically abused or just the act of sexuality activity is 'horrific' to you?

It is time to make a distinction between sexual activity that is forced / with violence, and sexual activity in general.  One is horrific the other appears not.

Rubiconster

[ Parent ]

Rape isn't a sexual experience (2.50 / 2) (#358)
by duffbeer703 on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 11:17:03 AM EST

You seem to think that hearing about sexual abuse is the verbal equivalent of reading Penthouse Letters.

Rape is a crime about control and domination while combinations of guilt, rage and helplessness tortures the psyche of the victim.

I'm close to a rape victim (assaulted while sleeping in her college dorm room), and listening to her account of the experience is truly horrific. Rape is a brutal assault, not some sort of erotic experience

We're members of a civilized society, and we all believe that we have the right to control our bodies and determine who can do what to us. Rape bypasses all of those conventions and strips the layer of (intellectual) control from us.

Rapists are like untamed animals, and their abuse degrades their victims to that animal level as well.

[ Parent ]

Well.... (3.00 / 2) (#366)
by MKalus on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 01:11:28 PM EST

1) People who claim they've "gotten over it" are lying. They're usually worse than the others.

Getting "over it" I don't think is possible, but you can learn to live with it and try not to let it bother you.

I think the "sick" thing (from a victims point) is the view that if they talk with anybody about it they are being branded as the instigator / it is their fault.

There is "shame" involved in those acts (not only sexual abuse, but pretty much all abuse) and most people end up feeling that they "got what they deserved" especially if it is an ongoing thing.
-- Michael
[ Parent ]

Never been raped (2.20 / 5) (#209)
by uptownpimp on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 08:13:30 PM EST

but I have relationship problems, distance with my family, motivation problems, and depression, so do most people. Why are your problems more important then mine, or anyone elses, because you were abused? Your using your past as a scapegoat.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
Was your family dysfunction in another way? (3.00 / 2) (#211)
by MichaelCrawford on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:30:43 PM EST

Many childhood traumas will cause such problems, not just sexual abuse. Was one of your parents alcoholic, addicted to some other drug, a gambler, or physically violent? How about psychologically.

Someone's claim that incest screwed him up does not imply that he claims that's the only way it can happen. That should be as obvious to you as it is to me.


-- The Future Internet will be safe from terrorists. We must think of the children after all
[ Parent ]

You missed the point (none / 1) (#212)
by uptownpimp on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:38:41 PM EST

My point is the problems he states are universal to everyone, bad childhood or not. I think it's normal for one to have relationship problems, or motivation problems from time to time or their enitire life.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
It's not "normal" to have such problems (3.00 / 3) (#215)
by MichaelCrawford on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 10:03:13 PM EST

"Common" is the word you're searching for. The fact that so many of grew up in such fucked-up worlds doesn't make our neuroses normal, just common.

They are very rare, and very fortunate, the normal people.


-- The Future Internet will be safe from terrorists. We must think of the children after all
[ Parent ]

common = normal (2.00 / 2) (#216)
by uptownpimp on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 10:10:36 PM EST

from my perspective.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
Yes and no (3.00 / 3) (#219)
by SocratesGhost on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 11:36:32 PM EST

Look up the dictionary definition of normal sometime. The word normal derives from "norms", meaning standards. To say that something is normal means that it generally satisfies community standards. In this sense, bad parenting is not considered normal, although it may be common.

We frequently understand the word as meaning "usual", but this is a rather modern usage, however there's no good word that adequately replaces the old meaning (norms are standards but standards aren't necessarily norms).

Instead of forcing a specific narrow understanding on a word, you should probably consider the other senses that Michael Crawford intended. It's pretty clear that he applies the word "normal" contrary to the sense of "common".

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
ok (none / 0) (#221)
by uptownpimp on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 11:47:54 PM EST

but I still believe its NORMAL for children to have unpleasant experiences and overcome and deal with them, it's part of life. To blame all current problems on what happened as a child is like Hitler blaming the jews. I am not trying to be unsympathetic, you have my sympathy.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
aye. (3.00 / 3) (#223)
by aphrael on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 01:06:26 AM EST

it's normal for children to have unpleasant experiences and overcome them; that's how they get to become adults.

but ....

not all unpleasant experiences are equal. getting sent to bed without dessert because you were obnoxious at the dinner table is NOT the same thing as getting your arm broken because you were obnoxious at the dinner table, nor are either of them quite the same as being raped.

[ Parent ]

I think (2.00 / 2) (#224)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 01:08:50 AM EST

everyone will, as a child, go through a traumatic event.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
one? maybe. (2.66 / 3) (#225)
by aphrael on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 01:11:11 AM EST

but how about traumatic events weekly or even daily over the course of years?

[ Parent ]
obviously thats different (none / 1) (#226)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 01:27:23 AM EST

but thats not my original point. I was trying to state that all the problems he is going through with relationships and what ever are real world problems that EVERYONE, not just sexual abuse victims, have. I think its common, not "normal", that some people suffer continous abuse whether you were the fat kid, or you were beat up in school, and ect.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
I understand that (none / 1) (#264)
by SocratesGhost on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:27:53 AM EST

but look at it this way: during those three or four years while you were developing normally, I was basically being emotionally crippled. How and when do you expect that I should catch up? Seriously, think about it: How? When?

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
First of all (none / 0) (#266)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:36:27 AM EST

don't use the word "you" refering to myself. You know nothing about my past. You need to stop thinking your past was so unique. There are thousands who share emotional problems relating to childhood but thet shouldnt come out with their story on K5. If you had more research and if it was about sexual abuse in general than I would approve. No one here wants to hear your specific story, thats what support groups are for.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
Is this a discussion site or not? (none / 0) (#276)
by SocratesGhost on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:12:30 PM EST

270+ comments. Some for and some against. I'd say that this is exactly why K5 thrives.

I'm not the oldest person here, but I'm not UID 60000 either. I think I know what kinds of discussions K5 can have.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
I have to ask you (none / 0) (#277)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:14:43 PM EST

why did you write this story? Even though you say otherwise, I belive you wanted sympathy.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
four reasons for writing this (none / 1) (#282)
by SocratesGhost on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:42:36 PM EST

1) Journaling is a common practice in therapy. I've always been a writer and I write a lot on K5 and I keep my own personal journal, too. Since I thought I had a story to share, the story teller in me felt that it was interesting and so the interests of writing (as a writer) and writer (as a person going through therapy) coincided. Besides, I got to use the word "omerta".

2) This is going to be hard to explain: I wanted to prove to myself that it doesn't hurt. I knew the trolls would be out in full force and so being public like this is a way of saying: "Bring it on, motherfuckers, is that the best you got?" While some people think I'm writing this in a vulnerable state (and there is a part that is vulnerable but not really the part you see) the better part of this is written with outrage and anger. If anyone thinks that my past has made me weak, I can point to this article on K5 and ask, "How weak must I have been to endure that?" It's probably not unlike black people calling each other the "N" word. Wear it as a badge of honor and it removes the sting.

3) There are others out there with similar experiences and they need not be ashamed. In some ways, though, I've failed them since the trollish behavior on this board will only serve to demonstrate that people think they should be ashamed of a past that they did not create, want, or earn. If I could have included just another thought in the article it would have been to reinforce that idea that shame about these events must be overcome at all costs, before it creeps like poison to create shame in other parts of our lives. And although we may face a lot in overcoming that shame, it's necessary and vital to do so.

4) And maybe, just maybe, I'll get healthy enough that I can help others--maybe even people I know and love--to be healthy, too.

Sympathy? That may be how you read it but I'll punch the man who says he feels pity for me.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
ok but (none / 0) (#284)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:52:03 PM EST

if everyone wrote simular stories then K5 would be nothing more than a support group, see my point? I find this topic very interesting, so I challenge you to write a general story on the effects and the process of overcoming childhood sex abuse.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
I already addressed this (none / 0) (#289)
by SocratesGhost on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 01:24:31 PM EST

As soon as I posted, I added an editorial comment explaining why this diary (and I agree, it is one) should exist outside the diary section.

K5 won't became a huge support group for many reasons not least of which is the unsympathetic K5 environment. No one will want to come forward again.

Also, I think you underestimate the power of K5 queue fatigue. Try posting a story about Iraq and you'll immediately get a subject line response -1, Iraq /nt. If anyone tried to follow up on this anytime soon (say, within a few months), it would be voted down and the editors will recommend that it be added as a comment to this article. After that short period, the response will be "Didn't we already discuss this?" and they'll link to this article.

It'll probably be at least a year before anyone can successfully post on this topic again in the queue.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
well (none / 1) (#292)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 01:38:12 PM EST

I hope someone writes a general story on sexual abuse.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
They aren't more important. (none / 0) (#253)
by Fon2d2 on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:02:17 AM EST

But that's how he's chosen to share, because that's what he knows and can talk about. And personally I'm glad when people can talk openly about such things, because I find it to be such a rare occurence.

Also, I do not believe he's using his past as a scapegoat. Children's emotions are very vulnerable. There does not have to be any instance of physical abuse, only denial, judgement, or the ignoring of certain emotions. A child will learn and incorporate those views into himself, so that twenty or thirty years later, when those same emotions arise, instead of knowing how to deal with them, he denies them, or ignores them, or gets all quiet, or gets very anxious. It's a very real problem and after having observed too many major episodes, one that has become all too common. By major episodes I mean alcoholism, ragaholism, total breakdowns, severe passive aggressiveness, and so forth. Any type of situation where shit's hitting the fan and you definitely don't want to be there.

[ Parent ]

K5 (none / 0) (#254)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:06:08 AM EST

isnt the place to write this type of article. It mainly about himself with little outside research. I'm not saying he should come out with his problems but if everyone did the same on K5 we would be nothing more than a support group.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
and? (none / 1) (#269)
by aphrael on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:49:27 AM EST

When the diaries first started up, I used them fairly extensively to talk about the wierdness of coming out, of telling friends I'd known for nine years something i'd never told them before.

did that destroy k5? if not, then socratesghost, or anyone else, talking about their personal experience won't either.


[ Parent ]

THIS IS A FRONT PAGE STORY!!!! (none / 1) (#274)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:09:12 PM EST

Diaries are meant for that shit, thats what a diary is! Front Page stories should not be personal stories with no outside research.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
i don't see that. (none / 1) (#279)
by aphrael on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:23:55 PM EST

some of the best front page stories we've had have been personal stories --- see, eg, CBB's trimester reports.

[ Parent ]
No (none / 0) (#281)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:33:41 PM EST

I would like to see a well written general article about sexual abuse backed up by the authors personal hardships and hard research.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
And.... (3.00 / 2) (#393)
by MKalus on Thu Jul 21, 2005 at 02:15:18 PM EST

.... what would you like to see there? Stats? Nice graphs?

The end result is that something like this WILL be most effective when written by a person who lived thorugh it.

This was not an attempt to explain how many people get abused, but rather what happens to the person who WAS abused.

If you think that is easy to do: Describe the colour blue to me please.... I have never seen blue, nor do I understand the concept of "blue".
-- Michael
[ Parent ]

Your example proves his case. nt (none / 0) (#326)
by Tragedy of the Kurons on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 01:16:13 AM EST


"That is a mean website. Some people are just mean and rude."
[ Parent ]

So was Living with Schizoaffective Disorder (none / 1) (#391)
by MichaelCrawford on Thu Jul 21, 2005 at 03:35:49 AM EST

All three parts were overwhelmingly voted to front page. What was it but a fifty page diary?

Certain kinds of diaries deserve front page. What is the best advice to a young writer but to "write what you know?"

Or perhaps you'd like to have more recipes for turkey stuffing.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Turkey molestation is a serious problem. (3.00 / 3) (#401)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:59:10 PM EST

Besides, I don't know anyone that can "stuff" it anyway, turkeys are rather big down there, if you know what I mean...

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
are we a discussion site or not? /nt (none / 0) (#273)
by SocratesGhost on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:06:17 PM EST


-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
Leave it for a diary (none / 0) (#275)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:10:36 PM EST

or write a story about sexual abuse in general.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
Since it was voted to FP (none / 1) (#417)
by HollyHopDrive on Tue Jul 26, 2005 at 10:44:58 AM EST

and K5 is defined by what its users want to post, I'd say that yes, this is very much the place for this kind of article.

With trolls like you swarming the place, there is no chance this could become a touchy-feely, weepy support group. But it's supposed to be a medium for sharing experiences, ideas and theories that are voted by users to be worth attention. As this most rightly was.

I've been pleasantly surprised by how few trolls there have been so far on this. It's a serious, delicate subject, and there are other things we could make fun of instead. Most of the other trolls have seen where the line is drawn. I hope you can too.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

I don't claim my problems are worse than yours (none / 0) (#283)
by SocratesGhost on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:47:42 PM EST

nor do I use my past as a scape goat. Read this comment before replying.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
I think (none / 0) (#287)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:57:12 PM EST

its clear I ellaborated on what I meant by more important (I know my original comment was misleading). You said your abuse was the source of your problems today, if thats not scapegoating (is that a word...) I dont know what is.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
A source, not THE source (none / 1) (#290)
by SocratesGhost on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 01:24:41 PM EST

that's not scape goating. That's recognizing that behavior patterns that we learn when we are ten and being abused probably aren't the patterns for success.

Scape goating is recognizing their presence and letting them control you, as though they give you a "Get out of jail free card" for bad behavior. I, for one, do not want my past to have any influence.

I think a good metaphor is to think of it in terms of a legislature. Every day, we add one or more legislators to our Congress and they all have voting rights. Inside of the United States of Paul, there was a period where a bunch of bad Congressmen were admitted. For the sake of this story, we'll call them the neo-convictions, or neo-cons. Even after that time period when normalcy returned, the neo-cons are still trying to recruit more like minded actors. When their policies prove successful, they'll say, "See, stick with us and we'll keep the country safe." and their recruits swell.

Meanwhile, there's a pretty decent majority that is terrified of the neo-con voting patterns. For the most part, they govern the country but occasionally they face a difficult situation and their own numbers fractures slightly. Most may stay true to the rational arguments, but then there's a group that doesn't necessarily buy into the whole "rationality" thing, understanding that reason is somewhat cold and dispassionate. So, they throw down their emotional vote, the neo-cons double it, and the bad behavior wins out as a policy for the day.

So, the rational part of the USP has recently had a vote. We've decided that it's time for the neo-cons to go. But now the fuckers just won't leave. Ignoring them doesn't work (they still show up to vote, the assholes). Beating the crap out of them doesn't work (they just run and hide until it comes time to vote and then they just mail in their ballots, the jerks). So, the USP has decided to take as its policy to no longer be hostile to the neo-con bloc, to hear out their grievance, and to try to persuade them that perhaps they shouldn't be so passionate about asserting their points of view. They had a legitimate grievance at one time, but we need to convince them that the time has past, their methods outdated, and wouldn't they like to be a part of the grand vision for the USP to come.

And we do that through discussion. Not through silence.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
RE: Never been raped (none / 1) (#351)
by TheNoxx on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 04:33:24 AM EST

Congrats. What a nice way to respond to a victim of childhood abuse.
Abuse does make it worse. Alot worse. I remember when I found out someone I considered a friend was seeing a much younger woman, and had been abusing her physically and emotionally, and using her history of being molested to control her. I nearly killed him.

[ Parent ]
Freud recanted his theorized cause of hysteria (2.87 / 8) (#213)
by MichaelCrawford on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:59:54 PM EST

Many of Sigmund Freud's patients were women who he diagnosed with the neurosis of hysteria. After treating quite a few of them, he advanced the theory that hysteria was caused by childhood sexual abuse, because this was reported by all his hysterical patients.

Later he recanted the theory. I don't think he suggested an alternative, but basically he felt that the fact that so many of his female patients claimed they were raped as children could not possibly be true. Why, said Freud, if that were the case, almost one in four young girls would have been molested! He found that impossible to believe.

Many of Freud's theories have since been discredited. His major achievement was establishing psychology at all as a field of science and medicine, not so much that any of his theories have since withstood the test of time. Ironic, then, that Freud recanted the one thing he ever really got right: that the cause of hysteria is childhood sexual abuse.

It was true than, and it is true now. What's different between now and then is not that children have only recently become the victims of sexual predators, but that in recent years they have begun to speak up about it, and to some extent, society is beginning to take responsibility both to prevent the rape of children and to punish those who rape them.

Back in Freud's day, you see, respectable people simply didn't talk about sex in public. This led Freud to believe he was mistaken, when in reality he was the first to grasp the awful truth.

Do you have any idea of how many people I have met - not just women, but men too - when they and I were both patients in psychiatric hospitals, who told me they were raped by their teachers? This happened to them all the way from preschool up through high school. DOZENS OF THEM!. And I have never been in a very big hospital, I'm sure if I ever had the number would be hundreds.

The fact that the arrests of serial pedophiles are so rarely reported that the arrest of New Zealand's Christian Heritage political party leader should seem unusual or shocking enough to be reported at K5 is not because such criminals are in any way rare, but because they are so often able to escape detection, either because their victims are ashamed to speak out, or because their parents, teachers or the authorities do not believe them when they work up the courage to try.

Many good people find it particularly shocking when someone they trust to look after their children is found to be a child molester. It seems to frighteningly odd that pedophiles would be found among the priesthood, youth coaches, elementary school teachers, or day care workers. Well, riddle me this, Batman:

If your favorite hobby was raping little kids, what do you suppose would be the best way to spend your time?

Working at a job, of course, whether paid or volunteer, where you got to spend time alone with your potential victims!

That's why I found it no suprise to recently hear a report on the CBC of someone who gave up his psychotherapy career to open a day care center in partnership with his wife. It seems that a couple decades later, several of his once young charges came forth as adults to report the rapes they all sufferred at his hands:

When they were four to six years old.

One victim reported that the rapes persisted over a period of two years!

Don't get me started!


-- The Future Internet will be safe from terrorists. We must think of the children after all

Irony (3.00 / 5) (#214)
by uptownpimp on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 10:02:48 PM EST

You know how hysteria was treated in Frueds time? Vibrator.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
He certainly DID suggest an alternative (3.00 / 5) (#243)
by livus on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 06:06:57 AM EST

the "Fantasy Hypothesis" where he decided that actually it's just that most children wish for, and fantasise about, being molested. This is how he then accounted for the data.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
Wrongly convicted? (2.40 / 5) (#246)
by joto on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 07:44:15 AM EST

After treating quite a few of them, he advanced the theory that hysteria was caused by childhood sexual abuse, [snip] Why, said Freud, if that were the case, almost one in four young girls would have been molested! He found that impossible to believe.

And so should you. That would, by the way, also mean that one in four women would need treatment for hysteria. (Don't bother about inserting chauvinistic remarks here)

What's different between now and then is not that children have only recently become the victims of sexual predators, but that in recent years they have begun to speak up about it, and to some extent, society is beginning to take responsibility both to prevent the rape of children and to punish those who rape them.

Actually, the rate has been pretty low all the time, with the exception of the 80s and 90s when it became a popular fad for "therapists" to find suppressed memories of child abuse. This usually culminated when the police, parents, and social workers destroyed the whole local community looking for satanistic cults that systematically raped, molested, and killed children. Usually the molesters would wear clown costumes, drive purple vans with stripes or spots, and have secret cellars that went into the underworld. Some molesters were even known to fly, usually in and out of the windows.

And of course no physical evidence ever existed, no postman or visiting parent ever saw anything, the witness accounts from the child witnesses conflicting wildly, the logistics of gathering the children impossible, and all the children interrogated by "experts" who would witness that in certain cases children always spoke the truth (and that those experts of course knew that this was such a case). And lots of people were wrongly convicted.

Not surprisingly, after a few such incidents, reported, and especially convicted child molestations decreased somewhat, but have continued rising since, and will soon reach the level they had before this fad.

Back in Freud's day, you see, respectable people simply didn't talk about sex in public. This led Freud to believe he was mistaken, when in reality he was the first to grasp the awful truth.

I seriously doubt that Freud had any inhibitions when it came to talking about sex.

Do you have any idea of how many people I have met - not just women, but men too - when they and I were both patients in psychiatric hospitals, who told me they were raped by their teachers? This happened to them all the way from preschool up through high school. DOZENS OF THEM!. And I have never been in a very big hospital, I'm sure if I ever had the number would be hundreds.

Ok, so it's less than hundreds, then :-) But seriously, now you are talking about something different. Are molested people likely to need psychiatric treatment? I wouldn't argue against that. Does many people who need psychiatric treatment have a history of being abused as children? I woulnd't argue against that either. Does many psychiatric patients having a history of being abused as children mean that many non-patients also were abused as children? I would say no. That is just basic statistics, you haven't got an exactly unbiased sample here...

That's why I found it no suprise to recently hear a report on the CBC of someone who gave up his psychotherapy career to open a day care center in partnership with his wife. It seems that a couple decades later, several of his once young charges came forth as adults to report the rapes they all sufferred at his hands:

Neither does it surprise me. It seems we as human beings are incapable of learning from history. The chances are high that these "victims" have only been victims of "experts" who has helped them "recall suppressed memories" of child abuse. Not having read anything about the actual case, makes it hard to reach any conclusions of course. And reports from the news outlets are usually fairly biased in this respect. Child molestation sells better than misguided law enforcement and "experts".

[ Parent ]

causation and psychology (none / 1) (#251)
by lurker4hire on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 10:21:13 AM EST

Michael, you of all people should know to be a bit more careful throwing out phrases like "the cause of hysteria is childhood sexual abuse".

While certainly there is some relation in some cases , that's all you can definitively say. I'm sure you don't think that all hysteria is caused by childhood sexual abuse or vice-versa, however remember your audience! Literal minded engineers and software dev's aren't going to tease out the nuances in your position. You need to spell it out for them.

[ Parent ]

well, that makes sense. (3.00 / 2) (#303)
by CAIMLAS on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 04:23:59 PM EST

Well, that explains why so many women are neurotic, then. I think I'll try and keep that in mind when criticizing their idiotic ideas about "world peace" and "keeping children safe", as they're evidently probably coming from a background that leads people to seek a controled, safe lifestyle.

Also, while it's somewhat on topic, I recently became aware of a "man" who is back in my area who raped several girls in my youth group when I was in high school (which I didn't find out about until later, unfortunately, otherwise the outcome might have been somewhat different). He was never caught, as the girls he raped had already been traumatized a lot in life and either didn't want to come forward, or nobody believed them when they said it (as they were clinically diagnosed as a habitual liar). Apparently he's starting up a youth "ministry" now for distraught goth teens. It makes me very, very angry, as it's plainly evident to me what he's doing. So very angry.
--

Socialism and communism better explained by a psychologist than a political theorist.
[ Parent ]

Freud's main insight (none / 1) (#304)
by rodentboy on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 04:24:29 PM EST

Freud's most enduring insight has been the idea of the sub-conscious. He was wrong in almost all of the details of course.



[ Parent ]
Why relevant? (2.50 / 4) (#217)
by redelm on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 10:57:15 PM EST

Forgive the impertinence, but I question exactly why non-maiming events from 20 years ago should affect you today. I do not dispute that sex crimes affect the victims for inordinate lengths of time. Even in cases of once-off rather than oppressive environments. But why?

Is sex so central and overriding to our thinking the we can be so easily maimed? I do not know, but think the question is worth exploring.



my guess (3.00 / 2) (#232)
by Viliam Bur on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 03:55:01 AM EST

Perhaps it is not sex per se, but feelings. (However, feelings related to sex are usually stronger.) Feelings of being powerless, unable to protect yourself, etc.

The trouble with feelings is that if one experiences a lot of them, one gets used to them, and becomes to need them. One becomes dependent on the specific type of feeling, similarly as a drug addict does. (There is more to this than a metaphor. Feelings are connected with certain types of chemicals released in blood.)

Many people have their favourite feelings. Putting different people in the same situation can cause them feel happy, angry, depressed, curious,... whatever. While other feelings are created by situation, the favourite feeling is created by default, without a cause - and one spends a lot of time with this feeling.

Feeling powerless as a default option is pretty bad. It leaves a person with basically two choices: (1) completely give up; (2) try to do one's best to combat the feeling - in this case, try to control everything, especially oneself.

Whether person can cope with a bad experience, or whether that experience will create a "default feeling" depends on circumstances; if bad situation is repeated and there is no emotional support (to create other feelings), chances are higher. Also children are more easily influenced than adults, because (1) there are less already established feelings to compete with the new one, and (2) they have less ability to solve the problem or find a help.

In my opinion the only solution is to create another "default feeling" to override the old one. (One cannot live without emotions, therefore only trying to get rid of bad feeling will not work.) Choose your desired favourite emotion. Then spend a lot of time in situations that create it. Focus on the feeling. Try to create that feeling in yourself as often as possible. (Try vividly imaging situations that created the feeling. Remind yourself regularly about those situations.) When the old feeling comes, just refuse it, and try to create the new feeling. (At the beginning you will usually forget to do this, but after a few months it becomes a habit.) Also try to spend a lot of time with people who help you get to other feelings.

[ Parent ]

You can't refuse emotions (none / 1) (#252)
by Fon2d2 on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 10:48:51 AM EST

That was a good right up about the nature of emotions and emotional trauma, but I question your means for dealing with the problems at the end. I've been doing a lot of self study and learning of Buddhism to deal with my own emotional problems, and everything I read, especially Buddhism, says you cannot ignore or try to refuse your emotions. Emotions are there for a reason and that's to tell us something. If negative emotions are still surfacing it's because you've never dealt with the problem and to you it's still important. This is actually a very common occurence.

The Buddhist view, as I understand it, is this. We must learn to listen to our emotions. We need to invite them in and spend time with them, even if they are negative. Also we need to not be judgemental, as in "this fear is totally irrational", or "I wish I'd stop feeling this way". This is learning to listen to ourselves. Then we begin to understand ourselves. I extrapolate that further with a conjecture of my own: how well we treat and listen to ourselves is how well we treat and listen to others.

Also, I worry your means for dealing with negative emotions might tend to be too controlling. I was really having problems with negative viewpoints like "I don't have enough friends" and "it's impossible to really meet and get to know people in the working world" and "the club scene is so much bullshit but I still want to go to parties". Obviously spending time alone was reinforcing my negative emotions, so I controlled my circumstances as much as I could, but it was all very slippery. For example, take the last thing on your list: "Also try to spend a lot of time with people who help you get to other feelings.", something I would've definitely been trying to do. But that was part of the problem: I was having trouble doing that. So any setback was very subjectively being viewed as a very negative thing.

See that's the problem. Your advice is to focus on external things and try to repress your own feelings. I see what you're trying to say, and I partially agree. We should try to cultivate new thoughts and new ways of thinking about ourselves, but we shouldn't ignore our emotions.

[ Parent ]

Assault victims (none / 0) (#296)
by redelm on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 02:33:21 PM EST

I'm think specifically comparing sex crimes with assault/robbery. Both have lost control. Victims of the latter on average have been subjected to more force and physical trauma, yet seem to suffer fewer long-term effects. Even when the victims are quite young. Something is special about sex. It should be understood in order to treat the damage.



[ Parent ]

Why are the effects of sexual abuse long-lasting? (none / 1) (#297)
by joedecker on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 02:39:34 PM EST

Often I think the damage is done not from sexual activity directly, but from a variety of things that go along with it. When a molestor within a family, such as a parent, physically hurts the child for their own gratification, it not only causes physical pain but destroys any hope of safety and trust in the parent-child relationship. When a family molestor demands secrecy about the sexual abuse from the rest of the family, it impacts the trust in that family as well. When a molestor threatens a child, threatens them with pain, murder, humilation, or exposure, threatens them often in order to enforce secrecy, the child can feel helpless. When a molestor uses humiliation against a child, telling them that the abuse is "their fault", there is an impact as well. When a molestor does physical, permanent damage to a child, the scars can become a mark making the person feel like "damaged goods". (And so on ... all of these are very common elements in the stories of childhood sexual abuse I've come across in my work with Impact Bay Area.)

Many of these effects can be what we call "traumatic". How trauma works in the brain is pretty interesting, a short oversimplification of the matter is that strong fear provokes an adrenal response and that adrenal response enables large, long-lasting, neurological changes to the brain, often associating the fear and resulting anxiety with attributes of the situation that cause fear.

A final "why" is "Why do humans have this adrenaline-mediated brain plasticity?" From an evolutionary standpoint, such a response seems plausible, as it would allow humans and other animals to quickly learn an avoidance behavior to dangerous things (hot stoves or lions). Nonetheless, whether this is "why" humans have such a response, it is demonstrable that they in fact do have surprisingly fast and long-lived responses to "trauma," or in fact, other learning done in other adrenalized states.

--- There's no such thing as too much film. --Joe Decker
[ Parent ]

In-family worse (none / 1) (#306)
by redelm on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 05:37:26 PM EST

I agree that in-family sex crimes are worse because they deprive the victim of a trustable and supportive environment. There probably are other serious shortcoming too.

But sex crimes remain unusually traumatic even when perpetrated by strangers, in a random, once-off fashion.



[ Parent ]

Why sex crimes? (none / 1) (#325)
by joedecker on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:37:17 PM EST

But sex crimes remain unusually traumatic even when perpetrated by strangers, in a random, once-off fashion.

Most crimes of assault (of body), whether sexual or no, are traumatic to children. People seem to be pretty easy to traumitize, you see this in war, you see it in victims of simple physical assault, kidnapping, children of parents who argue violently, children of addicts....

My model that very strong fear, coupled with powerlessness creates long-term trauma seems ... capable of explaining quite a bit of the patterns I observe. I'm not so sure the "sex crimes are so much worse" idea that I seem to read implied in your question is accurate.

Still, there's no question that society makes sexual crimes worse in a number of ways. Adult victims of sexual assault often have to worry about possible implications of sexually-transmitted diseases or pregnancy, concerns which will be left unresolved for days increasing the sense of harm. Partners of survivors of sexual assualt often bring their own social baggage to the table.

In addition, since most recovery from trauma involves reliving (either through writing about, talking about, thinking about or reenacting) the traumatic experience, the secrecy we put on sexuality in our culture I think also goes toward making sexual trauma more long-lived.

--- There's no such thing as too much film. --Joe Decker
[ Parent ]

Sex and shame. (2.50 / 2) (#346)
by The Diary Section on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 07:47:52 PM EST

So what you've got is a nasty combination of the victim feeling shame on their own behalf for the violation enacted upon them. Its not surprising it has rather complicated implications. Of course other victims of abuse can be made to feel ashamed, but there isn't the weight of society and world religion bearing down by default. I read once about a girl who was being abused by her father but didn't want to tell her priest because she didn't want to go to hell. Y'know, someone hurts you normally its OK to feel you've been done wrong to but if you've been sexually abused that becomes more confused. Remember also kids do tend to be fairly conservative in their beliefs. I'm not sure I want to go any further with the amateur pyschology, but thats my understanding of the situation from what I've heard anyway.
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
[ Parent ]
Let me try and answer that. (2.50 / 2) (#300)
by CAIMLAS on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 03:24:31 PM EST

I've never been sexually abused, but I think I can relate, if only shallowly, to the mental and emotional side effects.

First off, people can only "forgive and forget" when an event is traumatic (in any way) to them. It is similar to "first" experiences, or particularly memorable experiences (that one year at Grandma's house when you were younger, that one time your mom drove off the road and almost killed your whole family, etc.) which remain with you quite vividly.

Different memories and images remain vivid to different degrees and for different lengths than for  other people: for some it might be sexual abuse, while for others it's getting slammed into a locker in middle school.

Others might be able to block out and intellectually ignore some of these things, and through some combination of drugs, personality, memory ability, and will power they are able to concentrate on other things that are more important to them: special memories with family, replacing the memory of abuse with that of a neighborhood cat that got hit by a car on the same day, or drinking away their woes. Some come to terms with their demons, but vast majority of people do not: they hide them under fascades and layers - sometimes without their own conscious knowledge, as psychologists have been known to show with people that experienced particularly difficult things in their past.

As I said, different people remember different things to varying degrees of vividness. I can only postulate upon what it is that results in our individual perpensity for different memories, but I imagine that upbringing and family life, common culture, individual memory retention ability, and core personality all have a lot to do with it. Often, it's as simple as following the example of those around us - usually our parents - to figure out how to 'deal' with our emotional problems, and I'd wager that for most of these situations it's not a perfect fit due to different personalities.

This might be why that, in small, multi-generation communities such thigns as incest, rape, and what have you will often go on, unmentioned, for many generations: over the generations, the personalities of those in the community have melted into a more singular entity, and subsequent generations are more able to mimick the coping abilities of their parents in such a way which works for themselves.
--

Socialism and communism better explained by a psychologist than a political theorist.
[ Parent ]

effectively helping victims (1.00 / 3) (#315)
by krkrbt on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 07:02:19 PM EST

... affect the victims for inordinate lengths of time. ... But why?

My post which addressed this got hidden (as have 13 other posts in this thread so far) probably by people who thought it was too "insensitive".  

Anyways, the problem is that the so-called "professionals" in our western societies who are supposed to be able to help trauma victims are mostly incompetent.  All they know how to do is "psychoanalize" (ala Sickman Fraud), or perscribe drugs.  Neither addresses the trauma sustained.  Psychoanalysis can do something for some people, but does nothing for the majority.  Drugs are a cop-out for psychiatrists who can't help their patients any other way.  

Techniques that work get stuffed into the "alternative" category, and hence most people who would benefit from something other than Drugs and PsychoTheRapy won't encounter them until they've already suffered for years and years.  Hypnosis is the classic effective modality.  Newer methods fall under the energy psychology label.  (emotions are Energy in MOTION).   EFT / TFT / Emotrance / etc...

These techniques work.  "but I don't believe in that kind of Energy."  You can go to the psychoanalyst and suffer.  :).  

[ Parent ]

i zeroed it (none / 0) (#334)
by An onymous Coward on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 08:19:20 AM EST

because you're full of shit :P

"Your voice is irrelevant. Stop embarrassing yourself. Please." -stuaart
[ Parent ]
0, agreed. (none / 0) (#335)
by The Amazing Idiot on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 08:30:15 AM EST

Nobody gives a rats ass about "mystical energies flowing through the subconscious aether of space" or whatever that 'energy' crap is all about.

Ive seen those books do only 1 thing, and thats make money for the authors.

Pretty much, anybody who believes that crap is a kook.

[ Parent ]

Simple Psychology... (none / 0) (#350)
by TheNoxx on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 03:39:05 AM EST

Non-maiming physical stress is one of the ways that the human psyche learns; in fact, it's one of the most basic. Mental and emotional duress are of a different kind. Sexual molestation means the child cannot grow and understand trust in the way a healthy, normal individual can anymore. At all. No matter how much therapy a molested child goes through, there's always going to be that voice in the back of their head of self hatred and paranoia. When the molestor turns out to be a parent, things usually become much worse. The mother and father figures of childhood imprint on that child the major basis for their perception of authority, responsibility, love, affection, kindness, empathy, morality, and faith. In the case of aggressive molestation, children either show signs of debilitating anxiety or begin to lash out in extremely violent ways on anyone they can, particularly small animals and children smaller than they are. The former usually predates the child maturing into a serial killer; note that when I say lashing out on small animals, I'm implying events similar to Dahlmer's nailing young animals to trees while they were still alive.

[ Parent ]
You inspire me... (1.60 / 5) (#222)
by eeg on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:31:35 AM EST

...to troll on a higher level in order to compete.

-- eeg3(.com)
Why sex? (2.50 / 6) (#228)
by clambake on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 03:25:28 AM EST

I wonder why people who were sexually molested as children are kind of expected to go through some sort of post traumatic stress syndrome for the rest of thier days, but nerds who got the shit beat out of them by jocks are expected to Be a Man and get over it...  This culture is truly twisted...

Because sex is evil (none / 0) (#294)
by Tragedy of the Kurons on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 02:27:15 PM EST

and violence is clean, healthy fun.

"That is a mean website. Some people are just mean and rude."
[ Parent ]

Thats why (3.00 / 2) (#295)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 02:28:19 PM EST

I can beat old ladys to death with a baseball bat in GTA but cant see a boob on tv.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
To the nay-sayers... (2.40 / 5) (#231)
by AMBorgeson on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 03:48:51 AM EST

For every one who is saying something along the lines of "grow up" or "get over it", you have to realise one thing:

Humans are very sexual beings, therefor any trauma involving sex is many times more potent that non-sexual trauma. The very same wiring that makes men and woman obsess over the latest hollywood idol also makes people obsess over sexually related pain, physical or emotional.

"It takes a Long time to count to '2' in Binary." ~Fourlegged

There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.

fuck off (none / 1) (#255)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:09:25 AM EST

his sexual abuse was no more traumatizing than any other form of continous abuse.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
while i agree that other forms of abuse (none / 0) (#268)
by aphrael on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:47:03 AM EST

while i agree that other forms of abuse can be traumatic, i'm not sure i can agree with your assertion here. do you have a link to some research which supports your position?

[ Parent ]
Why do (none / 1) (#272)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 12:00:22 PM EST

you believe that continous sexual abuse is more severe than constant physical abuse or neglect?

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
fallacy of the beard (none / 0) (#407)
by perplext on Sat Jul 23, 2005 at 10:35:50 AM EST

strongly disagree w/ your claim.

> his sexual abuse was no more traumatizing than any other form of continous abuse.

clearly, some forms of continuous abuse are more tramautizing than others.

for example, if you took two identical people (let's let the clone assumption stand for argument's sake) and slapped one upside the head w/ a hammer monthly, this intuitively would result in a different amount of physical and psychological trauma than slapping the clone once a day w/ said hammer. and this would create a different amount (and arguably, sort) of trauma versus hitting the clone w/ the decapitated head of her pet chihuahua.

just b/c the demarcation between two constructs is hazy doesn't mean such constructs are universally equal.

for those who want literature -- and the vast majority of kuros seem utterly incapable of knowing how to begin an academic search on their own -- yes, there are both qualitative and quantitative measures for degree of trauma (try searching a psyc database for the terms "PTSD" && "measure" or "metric").

surprisingly, degree and nature of trauma as a result of continous abuse really DOES vary according to context. so yes, every case of sexual abuse IS more (and less) traumatizing relative to other forms of continous abuse.

[ Parent ]

That may well be (3.00 / 6) (#260)
by Tragedy of the Kurons on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:20:19 AM EST

But I'm still uneasy about all the attention given to child sex abuse, and the associated hysteria. It's not consistent with the scale of the trauma, and reflects an unhealthy prurient interest in the perverse nature of the crime. Sufferers should feel free to talk openly about their abuse, but the rest of us shouldn't relish in it.

Neglect in early childhood can be far more damaging than sexual abuse, and is much more common. Children are most commonly removed by social services because they aren't being provided with basic necessities, not because they are being molested.

But you rarely hear stories of the "survivors of neglect". Why? Sadly, it's because neglect isn't as titillating as child molestation. There's no "freak show", taboo-challenging appeal.

As for this story, it is obviously a diary entry. A good diary entry, but a diary entry nonetheless. So I can't help but wonder if the people who voted it up did so for their own voyeuristic benefit.

"That is a mean website. Some people are just mean and rude."
[ Parent ]

wrong (2.00 / 2) (#301)
by CAIMLAS on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 03:30:45 PM EST

Getting beaten and/or raped by an older 'father or mother figure' is much, much mroe traumatizing than, say, getting shoved in your locker by some jerk jock at school.

Unless that "jerk jock" was someone you absolutely idolized and had no relationship with your parents whatsoever, I hardly think it's a fair comparision. A parent or parent figure is someone that, more than likely, you've trusted since you came into the world. When you have a problem, you go to them, generally speaking. By being violated by that person, it can destroy that person's entire concept of a "higher power": father, mother, law and order, God, and even self-quantifying doubt.

Meanwhile, you don't know that jock that slammed you in the locker from joe on the street. You might be able to look back 10 years later and see a stupid, fearful kid. You might see him working as a brick layer 10 years later, with bad knees and a huge gut. But you have, for the most part, been able to forget the incident enough for it to not influence future relationships to any concernable degree. If you haven't, I'd say there's a good chance there are other issues that might be associated with your low self-esteem and self-hatred which you think is solely associated with John Weighlifter's locker body slams.

Granted, they'll both likely set you up for emotional doubts concerning competency and self-respect in various areas and to various degrees, but I think having a trusted figure in your life violate you would be significantly more traumatic.
--

Socialism and communism better explained by a psychologist than a political theorist.
[ Parent ]

You appear to have replied to another comment (none / 1) (#323)
by Tragedy of the Kurons on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 09:43:18 PM EST

Where did I mention jocks and nerds? I'm not talking about adolescent bullying, I'm talking about neglect and other forms of passive abuse in early childhood. Simply not being given enough attention will massively damage the brain of a young child - the "Romanian orphanage syndrome". And malnutrition at a young age can be physically and mentally harmful.

"That is a mean website. Some people are just mean and rude."
[ Parent ]

Child sexual abuse turns people on. [nt] (2.50 / 2) (#373)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:14:24 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Harm caused by society's view. (none / 0) (#236)
by Rubiconster on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 04:56:25 AM EST

"So, after more than month in therapy, on Wednesday I asked my therapist for a diagnosis: "Self sabotage behavior related to molestation as a child in the absence of a protective male adult influence." "

Could it be that the this therapist, like most (all?), therapists believe that sexual activity at an early age is necessarily bad and thus you had to view yourself as a victim and also 'damaged goods'.

It is society that makes it so you these 'victims' need to feel ashamed since sex is 'shameful' it seems I believe.

It is unfortunante that anyone needs to feel ashamed, esp. over something that they have no control over, or feel ashamed if they were 'victimized' and liked it, usually they'd rather play the role of victim to society and themselves rather than be labeled a pervert if they enjoyed sex.

I submit is this was Greece, 600BC, there would be less, if any, harm since that seemed to be a part of the culture and others (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty).

difference between sexual activity... (2.75 / 4) (#250)
by lurker4hire on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 10:10:37 AM EST

... and sexual abuse.

Sexual activity between peers is normal at all ages, sexual abuse generally is more about power than sex. A four year differiental creates a sever power dynamic to a sub-10 year old.

[ Parent ]

I disagree (2.50 / 2) (#262)
by Tragedy of the Kurons on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:25:43 AM EST

Sexual activity between peers is normal at all ages
No. Precocious consensual sexual activity in prepubescence is abnormal and often a sign of abuse.

sexual abuse generally is more about power than sex.
No. If it was only about power then molesters would use non-physical, legal and socially acceptable forms of abuse instead. Such as emotional or verbal abuse.

"That is a mean website. Some people are just mean and rude."
[ Parent ]

disclaimers etc... (2.50 / 2) (#288)
by lurker4hire on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 01:14:15 PM EST

Precocious consensual sexual activity in prepubescence is abnormal and often a sign of abuse.

While I see your point and agree somewhat, I fear that a blanket labeling of childhood 'sexual activity' as abnormal is off the mark. Kids learn through play, sometimes they play with each other to learn about their bodies. Given a north american cultural perspective, you could argue that childhood sexuality is more 'normal' now than in recent history.

If it was only about power then molesters would use non-physical, legal and socially acceptable forms of abuse instead.

Note that my statement was qualified with both generally and more. Of course sex is a factor, I'm just positing that it's not necessarily the primary factor.

I think this serves as a good example of why blanket statements are a bad idea when talking about human psychology... I'm more in the school of thought that thinks that, in most cases, the only person who can decide what causes what regarding an individuals psychology is that individual.

[ Parent ]

No, kids can have sex on their own initiative. (none / 1) (#342)
by Jazu on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 04:06:54 PM EST

The line between children and sex is drawn by adults. They still have all the necessary body parts, even if they haven't really activated yet.

[ Parent ]
Not before puberty. nt (none / 1) (#349)
by Tragedy of the Kurons on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 02:05:22 AM EST


"That is a mean website. Some people are just mean and rude."
[ Parent ]

Yes before puberty (none / 1) (#362)
by Jazu on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 12:16:14 PM EST

They can't have an orgasm, don't have a sex drive, and wouldn't have any reason to imitate actual sex, but prepubescent children can do clearly sexual things with each other on their own initiative. "Playing doctor" is a euphamism.

[ Parent ]
"Euphemism". But yes. [nt] (none / 0) (#374)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:15:57 PM EST



[ Parent ]
can't have an orgasm? (none / 1) (#395)
by Polverone on Thu Jul 21, 2005 at 06:31:12 PM EST

Oh yes they can. I discovered masturbation on my own well before puberty. I had no idea that anyone else knew how; I thought I'd discovered the best secret evar. The pre-pubescent, ejaculate-free orgasms were wonderfully intense, far better than anything after I reached sexual maturity. I wonder if that's how women always experience the big O.
--
It's not a just, good idea; it's the law.
[ Parent ]
You were clearly abused as a child. (none / 0) (#400)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:08:26 PM EST

Seek therapy, so they can heal the damage.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
you have a point (none / 1) (#259)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:15:37 AM EST

society can often make abuse victims feel worse.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
The Ancient Greeks may have been pederasts (2.75 / 4) (#265)
by Tragedy of the Kurons on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:28:42 AM EST

but they weren't rapists.

"That is a mean website. Some people are just mean and rude."
[ Parent ]

In ancient (3.00 / 2) (#267)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:37:45 AM EST

Japan, most married men had child, male, sex partners.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
almost no child molestor was unmolested? (none / 0) (#258)
by boboli fresh on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:14:41 AM EST

do you have a source to back up this 'statistic' that scares you?  going from my college psych courses, i am pretty sure you are wrong: there is near-zero correlation between being abused and becoming an abuser.

------
"Kaycee, you don't need this negativity in your life."
yes, this seems to be urban folklore (none / 0) (#363)
by elaineradford on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 12:17:13 PM EST

It is true that some molestors have been molested, but -- absence any evidence that victims are somehow magically contaminated and compelled to spread the misery to the next generation -- viewing the victim of the crime as a person more likely to commit that same crime in the future actually seems like a further victimization.

My impression is that accused or convicted molestors seize on claims, true or not, of having themselves been molested because they are seeking exculpation from their crimes. I would like to see hard evidence, if any exists.



[ Parent ]

Here you go (none / 1) (#371)
by SocratesGhost on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 08:09:45 PM EST

I suspect you have impressions that have no basis in anything other than your imagination. I doubt either of you have any experience with the penal system, offenders, and psychology.

But you want evidence? Here. You'll have to pay to get the info, but it's in the article where he indicates "studies found that one-third of juvenile delinquents, 40 percent of sexual offenders and 76 percent of serial rapists report they were sexually abused as youngsters".

In another study that I saw of New Jersey jails, it indicated that 95% of the sexual offenders claimed some form of sexual abuse as children. I have it in a book at home, but if you guys want to find it on the web, I know I've found it before.

Enjoy.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
I think... (none / 1) (#399)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:05:50 PM EST

That he wants not just reports, but reports that can be confirmed. A serial rapist just doesn't get to claim it, has to have some evidence to back it up. Exactly the thing that wouldn't be easy to get.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
moving goal posts (none / 1) (#402)
by SocratesGhost on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 05:14:36 PM EST

Due to the nature of the crime, it will usually go unreported. In my case, it was about 3 years after the statute of limitations expired and that's not atypical. As a result, we can never get perfect verification so we should trust (to a limited degree) that the people doing these surveys know what they're doing.

My first link was to the Journal of the American Medical Association. You don't get much more prestigious than that as far as sources go.

Also, I'm not sure what a criminal in jail would hope to gain by lying about such things. If anything, because of the way people who experience this respond to questioning about it, we should expect these numbers to be depressed.

Either way, I said that my concern was the statistics and those appear to exist (contrary to the original poster's claim that there is no correlation). Whether those statistics are accurate is another matter.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
this isn't evidence (2.00 / 2) (#408)
by elaineradford on Sat Jul 23, 2005 at 10:50:15 PM EST

This is on a level with claims in the 1970s meant to link being a sexual offender with drinking milk. Sure, all sexual offenders have a history of drinking milk. Guess what. We all did. That doesn't mean that the milk causes people to offend. You are not at risk for abusing someone sexually because you drank a lot of milk as a kid.

As a rough rule of thumb, it has been claimed for a few decades now that around 25 percent of women are victims of rape. Listening to anecdoctal evidence, I'm satisfied that the figure is much higher. Yet if you want me to believe that anything like 25 percent of women are sexual offenders, you are going to have a hard sell.

I'm with Susan Forward on this one. Victims are not more likely to offend. They are less likely. They've been there. They know the score. They don't want to pass it on.

Assuming that victims are more likely to offend is just another way to discriminate against victims.

What does it profit you to discriminate against yourself?

[ Parent ]

statistical correlation (2.50 / 2) (#409)
by SocratesGhost on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 07:23:35 AM EST

When a minority of the overall population constitutes a majority of offenders, I'm not sure we can consider them equally likely to do a particular crime. If 30% of the population drank milk but turned out to be 90% of the offenders, then you may be saying something but since 100% of the general population drinks milk, this isn't a fair comparison.

It's not a matter of profit as one of awareness.

Also, societal conditioning encourages males and females to react differently to the same triggers. At the risk of sexist overgeneralization, men are encouraged to action, which means that their behavior (good or bad) will generally be more aggressive. By comparison, females are encouraged to be a bit more passive, less confrontational, cooperative, etc. What's interesting is that while sexually molested boys have an increased chance to be sexually aggressive men, sexually molested women constitute 90% of all prostitutes. Unless 90% of women were sexually abused as children, this is an interesting correlation, one that we should be curious about.

Also, almost every study that I've read that touches the matter indicates we should be concerned that the number of sexually abusive females is probably alarmingly higher than reported.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
IANAT (3.00 / 3) (#405)
by perplext on Sat Jul 23, 2005 at 10:07:14 AM EST

forgive the disclaimer.

i've been a happy nonposting reader on kuro for years, but this comment compelled me to break silence.

> going from my college psych courses, i am pretty sure you are wrong: there is near-zero correlation between being abused and becoming an abuser.

seldom have i seen such a misguided lack of comprehension on an issue, especially in view of your professed educational background -- i can only assume that you did not do terribly well in your psyc classes.

you wanted sources for the relationship between historical abuse/maladjustment and abusing.

to get you going (i'm assuming you're seriously interested, and not just talking out of your ass), try starting w/ Widom's (1989) paper [Does Violence Beget Violence? A critical examination of the literature].

for further references, try any of these (the following assumes you have access to an academic literature database, say, at the school where you study these psyc courses that you've ostensibly taken) Webster, Douglas, Eaves, Hart, 1997; Bonta, Zinger, Harris, Carriere, 1998; Harris, Rice, Quinsey, 1993; Klassen, O'Connor, 1989

what you'll find is that it may or may not be the case that the overwhelming majority of abusers were themselves abused, but few published psychologists would be willing to posit a "near-zero correlation" as you so delicately put it.

last example to tie into your question of correlation directly: "physical and sexual abuse suffered as a child [is] a seemingly potent correlate of violence later in life" (Lyon, Hart, & Webster, 2001)

[ Parent ]

just to pre-empt... (none / 0) (#406)
by perplext on Sat Jul 23, 2005 at 10:17:23 AM EST

...any "we're talking about abuse, not proclivity to violence" type argument, any first year psyc text should be able to convince you that the correlation between tendency to violence (especially as related to intra-familial control/maladjustment) and tendency to abuse is rather well-established in the psychological literature.

[ Parent ]
Is this a support group? /nt (1.00 / 6) (#261)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:23:42 AM EST



=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
Is he asking for support? /nt (none / 0) (#421)
by HollyHopDrive on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 11:19:18 AM EST


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Your mom did. /nt (none / 0) (#422)
by uptownpimp on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 05:03:38 PM EST



=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
Well what happened ? (1.28 / 7) (#291)
by parasite on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 01:25:19 PM EST

Well I must admit I'm a little bit disappointed by the article, because there were no juicy details whatsoever. Don't you think it would be extremely theraputic to explain the situation alt.sex.stories.incest-style for the whole of the K5 community ?

Wow. (1.33 / 3) (#299)
by CAIMLAS on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 03:08:04 PM EST

For a second there, I thought you were talking about socialist/left-wing rhetoric:

And because I consider myself in control of my surroundings, nothing happens to me unless I permit it. When I fight with my girlfriend, it's not her fault; the breakdown was my mistake and it was in my power to fight or not. When some software that I've written doesn't work, the bug I introduced is an example of a character flaw: I should have known better than to allow a "divide by 0" error. When I got into a car accident 2 years ago, that was my fault too: I should have been heading to work instead of stopping for coffee and that's what allowed the girl to T-bone me. My laptop was stolen from my car; it was my fault for leaving it in there, no crime was committed except that of me tempting someone else; the thief is the real victim here.

I've heard almost that exact same sentence uttered from several liberal acquantances from time to time when a crime occurs to them; they blame themselves and excuse the criminal due to their "plight". Absolutely rediculous, as I'm sure it may seem to a level-headed person.

Not to hijack your musings on a very sensitive subject (many aspects of which do not solely adhere to sexual abuse), but I wonder if the beliefs of those that would rather give more power to the state (in the form of increased laws and legislation on this or that, giving the police more power, increased gun legislation, and overall decreased personal responsibility for one's own well-being) has anything to do with having been abused.

Now, bear with me here. All I'm basically saying is that those that are proponents for women not fighting back against their attackers (because it might lead to the attacker - that is, rapist - killing them, you know; as if they weren't already perpetrating a violent, life-endangering crime). "Just leave it to the police, ma'am!" It seems to me as if this not only encourages more of this crime (and other types of property and person violation - by both street criminals and the political type), but it takes advantage of and perpetuates the fears and insecurities of those they instruct in such a manner to their own ends.

Being as people that have been abused might feel a significantly stronger urge for their lives to be under control (which is simpler than being in control one's self, as such an illusion is much more difficult to pull on yourself), it seems reasonable to me that such people would at least be inclined to have others help them feel in control.

With such a large percentage of the population admittantly having been abused, and probably another fair chunk of the population that has been abused and simply doesn't come forward, it makes me wonder how "protectionist" politicians are benefiting from others' emotional hangups.

Sidenote:

I, too, "suffer" from what you describe here:

As a result, I would make a mistake and beat myself up about it inside. This would distract me enough that I would make another mistake and I would beat myself up worse. And then another, and then another and then another. Clinically, what I experience is probably called depression but I wouldn't call myself depressed; I'm too angry and disappointed in myself to be depressed. I'm not suicidal; I just know that I can do better.

I wasn't sexually abused as a child, but I did feel a very strong urging from my mom (and dad, to some degree) to be an over-achiever. I was naturally acclimated to over-achieving, as I was a competitive kid, grew up in an intelligent extended family, and was fairly bright myself. I've wondered if the stress I encountered around 4th grade and on (when I went to an intensive private school) might not have led to me developing an anxiety disorder relating to performance, and by correlation, personal control.
--

Socialism and communism better explained by a psychologist than a political theorist.

So... (none / 0) (#375)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:17:48 PM EST

...what you're saying is that liberalism is a symptom of childhood sexual abuse?

[ Parent ]
Sexual abuse worse than non-sexual assault? (2.75 / 4) (#302)
by meatsandwich on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 04:20:40 PM EST

Curious. You mention that your brother beat you and your step-brother plus a neighor sexually abused you. Yet the title and the majority of your article focuses primarily on the sexual abuse. Do you consider the sexual abuse worse than the physical abuse from your brother? If so, why?

I ask because I just posted in the other front-page kuro5hin article that I don't understand why sexual assault is viewed by society as a more heinous crime than non-sexual assault. It'd be good to hear from the perspective of someone who has suffered both.


Sexual assault worse... (2.50 / 2) (#340)
by catseye on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 11:13:48 AM EST

There are a few reasons why I consider sexual assault to be worse than non-sexual assault (at least weaponsless).
  1. Transmission of disease. It's easier to catch HIV, hepatitis, and a host of other blood-borne diseases from getting raped than from getting punched, kicked, stomped, etc.
  2. Pregnancy. Pregnancy is a distinct possibility in male on female sexual assualt. That can add even more trauma to an already traumatic situation.
  3. Sexual assault is invasive. Rape is more serious than being having one's jaw broken by a punch the same way that being stabbed is more serious than a broken jaw.
  4. The male attacker leaves something behind. The experts say that rape is a crime of violence and control, as opposed to just sex. Looking at it that way, ejaculating on or in a victim is similar to spitting, urinating, or defecating on or in a victim. And I don't think anyone here would think that it's better to be punched and crapped on than to just be punched. The adding of insult to injury makes it a more serious crime.


----------
How can we fight Islamic Fundamentalism abroad if we do not fight Christian Fundamentalism at home?
[ Parent ]
I think.... (none / 1) (#365)
by MKalus on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 01:05:54 PM EST

I ask because I just posted in the other front-page kuro5hin article that I don't understand why sexual assault is viewed by society as a more heinous crime than non-sexual assault.

That comes from the fact that the majority of physical assault is considered just that. The wounds heal, people are "good" again.

The Sexual assault, I think it is understood, goes way beyond the mere "hurting of the body", but I don't think anybody (myself included) who hasn't been in such a situation can understand it.

"Mental abuse" is where IMO the real pain lies, because those wounds aren't really seen by an outside observer, and someone who tears themselves to shreds on the inside can be perfecetly "normal" on the outside and to outside observers.
-- Michael
[ Parent ]

Question (none / 1) (#307)
by uptownpimp on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 05:42:30 PM EST

What percentage of sex offenders were sexually abused as children? Anyone know this?

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
Distinctions made (1.50 / 2) (#311)
by Rubiconster on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 06:42:34 PM EST


Is there always necessarily psychyological trauma, like if I were 8 and suddenly someone put my penis, if I indeed currently have a penis ;), in their mouth (that person being adult or child)?  Seems much of the trauma comes from the resulting police investigation and shame made to feel about such a behavior. What am i suppose to think as an 8 year old about sexuality if there is so much greif involved surrounding it?

"These are not kids that simply had a relationship with an older person, these are people that were raped."

I am glad there is a distinction made as it seems it is possible that a child could engage in, and even initiate, sexual activity willingly which would appear not to be rape in the sense of forced sexual behavior.  

"Two of them personally labeled it as rape when they breached the subject, and the other couldn't bring himself to say any word with any sexual connotation (he used gestures and facial expressions)."

No doubt rape, in the sense of forcing someone who  does not want to engage in any way shape or form, exists with children.  However, it would appear that it is easy so very easy for something that would have been nonhamful in and of itself to become harmful after the fact when a person is convinced to view it as such.

This change in perspective may come because of a police investigation, or perhaps it comes from the look of disgust across someone's face when a person tells another that they had engaged in sexual activity, they are looked at with disgust and are made to feel shame and feel like they are damaged goods.

"I (along with friends, therapists, etc) have had to try to convince them that sex is not necessarily a bad thing (as they currently believe), but when it's with two people in a relationship, it's an incredibly good thing."

What do you mean two people in a relationship? Could there not exist somewhere at sometime a truly loving [sexual?] relationship that happens to be between two people of different ages, perhaps even adult child?  

As you say it depends on the circumstances but I doubt it would be possible, unless the person is of the utter most resolve, to be able to fight the role of victim that society wants to put on them and instead say they liked it.  They would be labeled a pervert or worse, so much easier to be a victim and be pitied it would seem then be hated and alone.

"In my experience, they start off feeling like damaged goods, like a victim, like they are worthless and that sex is a terrible thing that should always be hidden. "

Where do they get this idea that they should feel that sex is a terrible thing, especially among children were there is a generallack of experience and knowledge about the subject?  Seems like they get that idea from society, from you, from me, from anyone who thinks that saying the word penis, sex or intercourse in a public area should make them blush - be ashamed.

The very fact that you believe that sexual activity is in need of (years?) therapy signals that you think that sex is so harmful that only you, or others like you, can fix it. I however applaud your willingness to discuss this issue as hopefully people, like you I believe, want to help others.

Rubiconster

Answer me one question (none / 1) (#313)
by livus on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 06:47:53 PM EST

are you by any chance a member of the NAMBLA?

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
Nambla (none / 1) (#319)
by Rubiconster on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 08:51:08 PM EST

Nambla?

Since I live in a country that does not discriminate against gay relationships (i.e. the age of concent is the same between heterosexual and homosexual intercourse / relationships) then I really don't need to subscribe to that particular organization now do I?  Although I do advocate the idea that heterosexual and homosexual ages of concent should be the same, else that would appear to be to be discrimination.

Apart from their advocating equality for ages of concent I am really not familiar with what else they (NAMBLA) are about, perhaps you would care to elaborate?

Rubiconster

[ Parent ]

That organization... (3.00 / 4) (#324)
by slashcart on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 10:39:58 PM EST

Nambla is not about the equalization of age of consent. Age of consent in the U.S. has always been equal, so there's never been a political issue about it.

The organization (nambla) is about the legalization of adult/child sexual relationships. As a result, the organization is reviled by almost everyone.

...All of the people I know who were molested or penetrated as children were severely damaged by it. Not one of them has anything like a normal adjustment. Most of them are severely disordered, even decades after the event occurred, and few of them have normal romantic relationships.

The damage resulting from childhood sexual abuse goes far beyond society telling children that sex is dirty. The damage results from children being sexually exploited in a way that they're powerless to prevent or defend themselves against.

Bear in mind, that the power dynamic between adults and children is so drastically unbalanced that children are essentially compelled to assent to whatever acts they are subjected to by prominent adults in their lives. If a parent forces himself (or herself) on a child, what is the child to do? Tell? Whom would they tell? To the child, the parent is the absolute pinnacle of authority.

Also bear in mind that a child is acutely aware of his inability to alter his circumstances. I suspect that that may be part of the trauma resulting from abuse. For example, if a woman is violently raped by the man next door, she can move away. But a child attacked by his parents has nowhere to go. He's not only aware of what happened to him, but he's aware of the probability of its recurrence and of his powerlessness to prevent it.

[ Parent ]

Let me rephrase (none / 1) (#328)
by livus on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 03:13:22 AM EST

do you wish for child/adult sexual relationships to be legal in your country?

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
In short (3.00 / 2) (#329)
by slaida1 on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 04:02:16 AM EST

I feel like you're asking why doesn't circumcision produce traumas but sex does?

Never mind, I'm asking it now. It's veery strange if genital mutilation with blood and pain doesn't produce a serious trauma later on.

What's going on?

[ Parent ]

So.... (1.15 / 13) (#317)
by beergut on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 07:52:45 PM EST

... give us a play-by-play on the molestation.

*popcorn*

i don't see any nanorobots or jet engines or laser holography or orbiting death satellites.
i just see some orangutan throwing code-feces at a computer screen.

-- indubitable

I read this and thought (2.50 / 2) (#331)
by PrinceSausage on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 05:01:28 AM EST

"Yes, that is it, that puts the finger right on the sore spot". However for me the betrayal wasn't related to sexual molestation, it was different but since this is on discussion I thought I could bring on my own two cents.

My father is an immigrant, he doesn't look vastly different from the locals but sufficiently so that my genetic makeup - quite apart from some other distinguishing features - made it impossible for me to blend in. I grew up in a working class neighborhood outside of the city I still live in and from the age of maybe four or five I got the shit kicked out of me by people. And that kept going for 11 years. I had no friends, my clothes were torn, my body bruised, my hair pulled out by the roots a couple of times. I was burned with a soldering iron, my bicycle destroyed (actually two of them if I remember correctly), I was despised and spat upon and no grown up ever saved me. My parents didn't do anything. Didn't put me in another school. Didn't move. PTA meetings of course. Oh, and I had counseling with the school psychiatrist. Thanks a lot.

20 years later now, 20 years have passed since I left that particular school and I enjoyed six or maybe even close to seven horrible years where I was so self destructive I am sometimes utterly surprised I am still alive. But since then I have had enormous success. Comparatively. But for a kid from my background to go on to do what I do is pretty damn uncommon. I am a couple of months away from becoming a father now myself for the first time, we will have a son this fall, and I find myself thinking "Whatever happens, I WILL protect him if I can. I will never, EVER allow something like what I went through to happen to him.". But it has also created something which I can't handle, a dislike, even anger against my parents. I look at them, they are old now of course, retired and sitting in their little apartment looking like to little birds. Old and frail. I look at them and I don't even know what to say. Hate is too strong a word. My parents are great in many other ways, I guess. They are. But they were not great parents to me. But then again, I can only strive to be a better person and make sure that I don't make their mistakes again. I hope I can at least. But it feels awful to sit there and dislike your parents. We are told that we need to "honor our father and mother", this is after all one of the basic tenets of the judeo-christian faith which forms the basis for our civilization (to a certain extent anyway). Disliking them, being angry with them, hating them seems so extremely childish but at the same time - how the hell do you handle that situation? I have no idea. I should probably forgive and forget and maybe take comfort in the fact that I turned out alright in the end after all. But that took 17 years of pain. And no one should have to endure that. And for the record, I still wake up sweating in the middle of the night after dreaming of being chased down narrow corridors.

Bla bla bla. Ramblings.

Thanks (none / 0) (#413)
by Eleventh Guard on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 05:18:10 PM EST

Thanks for posting that. I can see where the original poster is coming from, I guess, but one thing that's always bugged me about psychology and the media (self-help books included) is the overemphasis on sexual abuse. The implication is that it's a real issue (which is true) and that people who have "only" suffered physical and emotional abuse have it easy (not true). That attitude only makes the problem worse.

Honestly, I wish that outside of psychologic academia and very narrowly focused books, former and current victims wouldn't be placed into separate camps and given out priority cards based on which camp they were in. Living in a home where violence and verbal abuse from one's mother - the one who should, theoretically, protect her children - could happen any time for any reason or none at all, for two decades, will damage a person just as much if not more as a molestation will. But that gets laughed off like it's nothing because it's less shocking unless there is a very small child involved or someone dies. A 14-year-old's broken leg is non-news and non-interesting.

[ Parent ]
Sad but true.... (none / 0) (#425)
by MKalus on Tue Aug 02, 2005 at 12:11:05 AM EST

.... I guess it is also less often detected. There is always the concern about sexual abuse. The media is so concerned with the very rare cases when kids are snatched of playgrounds etc.

But the "silent abuse" that happens in the homes is far less obvious and people don't want to talk about.

I also think that in a way feminism may have been partly to blame for this, as they raised awareness about rape and sexual abuse of women and girls and in all the PC environment the "boys were left behind" (to oversimplify).

Maybe in time it will change, but for the near future I doubt that very much.
-- Michael
[ Parent ]

defending incest (2.66 / 3) (#337)
by pocopoco on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 09:51:58 AM EST

>we squirm at the real word under fancy objective sounding phrases
>like "childhood sexual abuse" instead of using the more familiar
>name: incest.

I'd just like to point out that the word incest does not imply sexual abuse as you seem to think it does.  I've slept around with family members on occasions where both sides were willing.  It can be a great way to blow off stress.  Having a partner that has known you since childhood and whom you aren't 'playing the dating game' with so to speak can be incredibly relaxing and pleasurable.  

Both the abuse the article is about and the entirely willing experience I've had fit under the heading of incest as does various other situations (old royal lines preserving blood, etc.).


alright (3.00 / 2) (#343)
by uptownpimp on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 04:25:20 PM EST

I need juicy details.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
Does your sister know that you (3.00 / 2) (#344)
by Sesquipundalian on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 05:43:06 PM EST

posted this statement on-line, and that your comment can easily be traced to you?


Did you know that gullible is not actually an english word?
[ Parent ]
How could he be easily traced? [nt] (none / 0) (#376)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:21:09 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Well, now we know his Pat Chalmers account. (none / 0) (#392)
by Sesquipundalian on Thu Jul 21, 2005 at 09:54:47 AM EST


Did you know that gullible is not actually an english word?
[ Parent ]
Thanks for that, random internet person! (3.00 / 2) (#348)
by Tragedy of the Kurons on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 01:23:35 AM EST

And I bet you play a mean banjo too.

"That is a mean website. Some people are just mean and rude."
[ Parent ]

its a harmonica /nt (none / 0) (#360)
by uptownpimp on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 11:34:04 AM EST



=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
"Survive" is a relative term (2.66 / 3) (#357)
by jharish on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 08:34:48 AM EST

The kind of responses I've seen here are both enlightened and some are strangely awkward. Why are they awkward? Well, I have found in my experience as a 'therapist'(I put that in quotes because I am not a trained counselor, but a massage therapist who allows clients to talk about whatever they want to during a session.) has taught me that the people who deny sexual abuse the most vehemently have the most symptoms of it. What are symptoms of sexual abuse? I've seen it to be awkward fetishes, inability to start or maintain a relationship, hatred of their sexuality, belief sex is a very dirty thing, intense desire to be tied up/raped by strangers. I can read the DSM as readily as a psychotherapist, and as someone who survived several types of sexual abuse myself, I know the different 'flavors' of it. 1) I was anally penetrated at the age of three by a babysitter. 2) My mother liked to masturbate me while changing diapers, and kept me in diapers until the age of 7 and after being potty trained, the diapers were used as a 'form of punishment'. 3) My father loved spanking me naked all the way up to age 15. He'd use a leather belt and made me strip down to nude, no simple exposing of the buttocks, complete nudity. I was always spanked on my bed. 4) My parents frequently made out in front of me and my sister at young ages. These are all different forms of abuse people can experience. I was adopted at a young age, and for some reason, the trauma of the adoption turned on my memories around 14-16 months and I have a solid and contiguous recollection from that age forward. I remember these things and didn't identify them as 'wrong' until later in life, when I was in therapy for all my depression and self-hatred. Recent examinations have shown I have scar tissue all through the rectal area and I remember bleeding whenever I defecated from ages 3-7. Why am I baring all this to a group of people I'm only just starting to get to know? Because as I've worked with people, I've found that unabused children are a serious minority. As the poster says in his article, no one talks about this and we should. It's important that our consciousness be raised further and further regarding abusive childrearing. I don't exactly know how it can be stopped, but at least getting dialogue out there can help others learn to cope, and help parents realize that some of the things they are doing are wrong and damaging. I also want to point out that my adopted parents were rather... well, slow to believe their actions were wrong. Over 15 years passed between me moving out and them apologizing for many of the things they did. Their two loving children rarely talk to them, one is a stripper and dates a drug smuggler and the other is a gay massage therapist. For a Baptist Preacher and his wife, that's two shameful marks on their childrearing chart. I just wish I had learned to talk about it earlier. I wish others learn to be more open about it. The feelings of guilt and shame and the need to control your surroundings are the same for me as they are for SocratesGhost.

Wow (none / 0) (#398)
by Tragedy of the Kurons on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 05:42:00 AM EST

This comment was a lot more effective than the story.

"That is a mean website. Some people are just mean and rude."
[ Parent ]

are you a sex worker/prostitute? (none / 0) (#404)
by livus on Sat Jul 23, 2005 at 03:49:06 AM EST

I can't quite see anyone revealing "awkward fetishes, inability to start or maintain a relationship, hatred of their sexuality, belief sex is a very dirty thing, intense desire to be tied up/raped by strangers" to their sports massage person.

Is this some sort of euphemism or is regular massage a hotbed of frightening confessions?

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

check out My Education by Tom Chiarella (3.00 / 2) (#361)
by elaineradford on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 12:06:21 PM EST

I was so impressed by this piece from the May 2005 Esquire that I quoted a bit of it in my online diary:

"I'm not bent on revenge.... I'm not interested in money, or television time, or apologies. What I want to say is that I figured it out by waiting, all by myself, all those years ago. No one should feel responsible. No one should feel betrayed. I dealt with it exactly the way I would now if I had to do it all over again. I believe that in saying this I'm speaking for a separate nation now, the one that deals with pain by pressing on, by finding something new to center itself on, by mulling over that pain in the solitary moments of its life, when answers aren't crafted by therapists and counselors. Speak when you want to, speak when you're ready, or just don't speak at all."

I'm not sure what I like about this quote or what I like about Chiarella's essay. What I do know is that everyone who is even remotely high-achieving blames themselves when they get in a car accident, screw up a computer program, get robbed, blurt out the wrong thing at a meeting, etcetera. Molested or not molested has nothing to do with it.

I'm not sure I would be willing to give my molestors the power to say that they formed my character. Especially since I strongly suspect that they didn't.

Do what you need to do to be happy and healthy. But I think your life strategies have clearly served you well to date. I haven't observed that dwelling on past miseries serves anyone well except those who profit financially from encouraging you to dwell. You don't stop hating yourself by focusing on yourself and your tragic history. You stop hating yourself by not having the time for such nonsense.



"Character Forming" (none / 1) (#364)
by MKalus on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST

I'm not sure I would be willing to give my molestors the power to say that they formed my character. Especially since I strongly suspect that they didn't.

"They" did not form the character per se, but you learn to behave in a certain way and you develop coping mechanisms.

Those are becoming reflexes, like soldiers train to behave in a certain way in a certain environment.

The problem is: The younger it starts, the deeper these get ingrained and the harder it becomes to first of all recognize them as what they are and then try to CHANGE them.

So no, it is not really the abuser (it goes way beyond molesting, they are merely the catalyst.
-- Michael
[ Parent ]

i don't understand (none / 1) (#403)
by elaineradford on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 08:35:27 PM EST

You responded to my post but I am at a loss to understand what you are saying. Is it bad to have a "coping mechanism?" I should think it is better to be able to cope than to not be able to cope.



[ Parent ]

I agree.... (none / 0) (#410)
by MKalus on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 12:48:20 PM EST

... but the way you cope with it depends on the abuser.

Those "reflexes" become so ingrained that they do become part of your character.

So yes, you shouldn't let the abuser form your character, but it will influence it.

Does that make more sense?
-- Michael
[ Parent ]

coping mechanism - not universally good (none / 0) (#412)
by Viliam Bur on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 09:25:08 AM EST

A "coping mechanism" is something that helps you better solve some specific situation (the one created by abuser). However, sometimes the same mechanism makes you worse solve other situations.

So later in your life may happen that due to the coping mechanism, you solve 99% of your situations worse... because the situation created by abuser was not statistically normal. In statistically average situation, the mechanism is bad; it causes more harm than benefit.

Possible coping mechanisms to abuse are: pay extreme atention to any smallest signs of danger and avoid them; never trust people; etc. In real life it means that you are afraid of everything and try to do all unimportant things perfectly (which wastes a lot of your time and energy), and you do not ask anyone's help... so you often work more and achieve less than others; except sometimes you work maybe hundred times more, achieve a little more, and are completely exhausted. Even if you are aware of this, it is not easy to change, because at the moment you stop doing things perfectly, you get terribly afraid, or something like this.

[ Parent ]

bad stats (none / 1) (#368)
by Rhodes on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 04:20:11 PM EST

violence is horrible.  quoting bad stats is not that great, either.

the 1 in 3 stats for women is now the "truth", but is actually not supported by stats.

here is a website with an actual reference that supports a 1 in 6 number:

http://www.rainn.org/statistics.html#womenarevictims, and 3% of men.

You should get better numbers (2.66 / 3) (#370)
by SocratesGhost on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 07:50:25 PM EST

The link you provided went to a stat about lifetime rape statistics which are frequently categorized differently than sexual abuse statistics. Children often don't know that they can refuse so it can't be considered involuntary. Your numbers do not really talk about incest and the definitions they provide on sexual "assault" may not cover the range of activities that can be classified as sexual "abuse".

Still, I wasn't only referencing one study. I found some that indicated 60% of women were sexually abused as minors. I've seen some others that say it was "only" 25% and some went even lower. I'm not sure why to give any single study more credence than any other but I chose the 1 in 3 number because it was in the middle of all of these studies.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
Agreed. (none / 1) (#420)
by HollyHopDrive on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 06:58:46 AM EST

A lot of rape surveys define rape as a woman having sex when she didn't want to. That's not a good definition. I've had sex when I didn't want to, but I have certainly never had sex without consenting.

Scaremongering rape surveys do no favours to anyone - not to society, not to women, not to men and not to real rape victims of either sex.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Bad math (none / 0) (#424)
by sserendipity on Sat Jul 30, 2005 at 10:17:15 PM EST

The study sited by the page linked to suggests that 1 in 6 rape victims in 1992 may be under twelve,by the extrapolation of existing data. This is completely different to saying 1 in 6 girls under twelve has been abused.

..bIz...


(º·.¸(¨*·.¸.¸¸...¸¸.¸.·*¨)¸.·º)
«.· ° ·.groovetronica.com.· ° ·.»
_(¸.·º(¸.·¨'"'¨¨"¨¨'"'¨·.¸)º·.¸)_


[ Parent ]

I came for the diddling, (1.75 / 4) (#387)
by Pat Chalmers on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 10:46:59 PM EST

and stayed for the comments. Seriously, I'm handing out 3s like a paedo handing out candy here. Half of the comments are blatant trolls which get endless bites anyway, and the other, more autobiographical half, is just really arousing interesting.

Well this explains a lot! (none / 1) (#396)
by Polverone on Thu Jul 21, 2005 at 06:45:19 PM EST

While others read Atlas Shrugged or the Fountainhead and become enamoured of the idea of receiving the full reward of your responsibilities, I was not seduced by any such greed but by a hero who springs fully formed into the world, unfettered with the burden of family. Does Howard Roark have a dad? Who is John Galt's mom? We don't know and we are told romantically that it is unimportant to know. The Randian model of the family satisfied me in that it was a model built of duty and not of love. That was something that I could understand but took me down a dead end alley philosophically for which I'll never forgive Ayn

Actually, it explains just one exchange. I always wondered why SG accused me of reading too much Ayn Rand when I explained why I found the Cuban embargo objectionable. Now I know. But is "projection" the name of a driving force or just a label for a confluence of events?
--
It's not a just, good idea; it's the law.

Who cares about incest? (3.00 / 3) (#411)
by ObviousPseudonym on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 06:05:52 AM EST

At varying times between the ages of perhaps 7 and 10 -- I can't honestly remember my exact age, though I do have the point of reference of a family vacation to use as a waypoint -- my sister and I fucked.  She was 5 years older.  What I remember about it was that it was interesting and that I liked it.  She made it into a game.  It would always start with a dare to do something somehow inappropriate, a double dare to touch the other person in some inappropriate way, and would culminate in, umm, a double-doggy-dare to fuck the other.  I think this probably happened maybe five times over the course of a few years.  But I really don't know.

I certainly never had feelings of sexual attraction for her, and don't think I associated feelings of attraction with sex.  I just knew that sex was something adults did and that it was wrong.  And, actually, our mother caught us once, not in the act exactly, but me with my pants down, which is rather odd behavior for a brother and sister hidden behind a closed door, when their normal disposition is characterized more by hatred and violence than pants around the ankles.  Our mother was very serious and led us to her own bedroom, where she sat us down and sternly asked what we were doing, all before we had an opportunity to get our stories straight.  Luckily, Law & Order wasn't on TV back then, and our housewife mother didn't know the importance of separate interrogations.  I think we said I was changing my pants, which satisfied her, and that was that.  I remember as we were leaving the room I turned to my sister and said under my breath something like, "phew," which prompted her to slap me hard, as she was often inclined to do, and told me to shut up.

Like I said, I'm not exactly sure how old I was, but I was young: I did know that girls were impregnated through sex, but it was my understanding that this was effected by a testicle traveling up-and-out of the penis, where it would be deposited inside a woman for growth into a child.  I also remember being quite frightened when, after a relevant occasion came to pass, I realized that my normal allotment of three testicles had shrunken to only two, which plainly meant my sister was pregnant and that I had something called AIDS.

Which is all to say this: why should anyone care about incest?  I'm sure it happens quite regularly, perhaps not normally, but frequently enough for it to not even be an oddity, or a problem of any major sort.  Probably it's just a part of the human condition.  Frankly, I don't give two shits that my sister fucked me, or that I liked it.  Slightly embarrassing, of course, as society says it's awful and all that.  Hardly a big deal in my life, though.  I only think of it when others talk about incest, or childhood sex or abuse.  Obviously I allow for the fact that others' experiences might be much worse than my own, especially if some sort of force or violence is involved, instead of simple coercion.  But it's always seemed to me that incest in and of itself is psychologically harmless.

I've often thought the same about other forms of childhood sexual "coercion" which lack a violent element.

For example, when I was 13, in 7th grade, one of my sister's (gay) friends needed some help with a poetry project he was working on.  He was submitting a collection of his erotic poetry to a (non-existent) contest administered by Berkeley.  What he really needed to grab attention and win the grand prize was a collection of photographs of his erect penis for pairing with the erotic poems.  What he needed from me was someone to take the photographs.  He'd pay me $50 to help him out with this.  This went well enough, and the next day he left at my house an incense-scented envelope with $60 inside, which I used to buy some weed.

The next week he needed to redo some of the shots that didn't work out exactly as he had hoped.  If I could help him with this, he'd give me another $50.  So, cool, another 1/8th of an ounce.  So I helped him with the shots, which turned into taking a few shots of myself in various states, turned into jerking off in front of him, turned into him jerking me off, turned into me getting close to climaxing, freaking out at the thought, me trying to push him off, and him holding on tight till I finished.

What I remember most about this is: I liked it.  This was my first hand job, and far and away the best I've had.  When I'm sleeping with a girl and her hair smells like Pantene Pro V, what I think about is: gosh, wasn't that a nice hand job back in the day in my parents den from my sister's quirky faggot friend?  And I guess I feel like my life is all the more enriched for it.  I guess I don't know how else to feel.  Poor me, I got a killer hand job when I was 13 from a quirky queer.  'Cause let me tell you, this is not the worst thing that could happen to a thirteen year old.

Nonetheless, the fact is he rather forced himself on me.  I was telling him to stop, stop, stop, while I tried to push him off.  And this wasn't a prolonged thing, of course, but merely a few seconds, because I had waited 'till the apex of this hand job before I protested.  I'm not sure why I thought it would be okay to let him jerk me off, but not to let him make me come.  I guess maybe I thought if he made me come, that would mean I was gay.  Whatever I was thinking, I don't regret the situation at all, because now I know what a good hand job is supposed to feel like.  Mostly what I regret is that I didn't do it again, because not only was it the best hand job I've had, but he also paid me $100.

Honestly, I find these childhood stories pretty funny.  As I walk the chain of memories which begin at this tangent, I can remember such a slew of hilarious childhood absurdities that I can only wish it were socially acceptable to talk about these things with strangers at a bar, because I could go on for hours.

Incest, molestation etc (none / 0) (#426)
by levesque on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:06:40 PM EST

Is probably not the main constant in later pathologies (though clinical avoidance, or avoiding to see one's behavior as out of the normal often results in low validity). Pathological emotional context and inherent coping mechanisms -later in life when one sees things like healthy emotional relations at one's doorstep but always steps back, the strength of the child hood mechanisms, there conditioned nature leads to justifications of stepping back rather than exposure, deconditioning, and its inherent anxiety; this anxiety is no small matter and can be loosely inversely related to the level of the emotional pathology in child hood, this can result in anything from a slight withdrawal at one level, to a fatal disease.

To receive and give passive emotional validation, devoid of justification, is something to aim for, and exposing an understanding of these processes and there checks and balances is maybe an inherent intellectual part of the processes too.

I am a student and this is a low level editing of some sparse and loosely related memes on a very large subject

[ Parent ]

I share this pain (3.00 / 2) (#414)
by MonsieurMerdique on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 10:58:39 PM EST

Childhood sexual abuse is a pain that I share with you. I have not been raped by my family. My professor raped me at the college. He was my maths professor.

I was 13 years old then and my face was fresh. I came to his classroom every Tuesday, Wednesday and Saturday for my lessons. He was a gentle instructor. All my classroom comrades were liking his amusing style. Early in autumn he announced that he always selected two or three special helpers. The class nominated seven persons and then voted. The next day the big announcement came. Michel was first named ; "la petite noblesse" was second ; and then I had some anxieties. I was douting that I was elected ! Then the third name rolled off his tongue : it was me !

In the beginning to be his special helper meant reminding the class of conduct obligations or erasing the tableau. Two months later it changed. He invited me to his house to reward me for being a good helper. All week I dreamt what my surprise was. Saturday after school he drove me to his house. He offered me some fruit and cheese and asked me about my liking of his class. Next he told me to follow him to his bedroom, where my gift was. He told me to close my eyes and wait for the surprise.

He told me to turn around and open my eyes. I followed his instruction and my eyes revealed a horror : I saw a man unclothed with penis erect. He had applied a syrup to the head of his penis which he called his candy. He told me to lick his candy, and I told him that this was perverse. I ran to the door, but he had locked it. He approached me with the most terrible look. He removed my pants and then he sodomized me.

Afterward he told me not to tell anyone. He said I would embarrass myself. He also threatened to fail me and told me no one would believe me. He also told me that I was infantile for crying and that I should be a man about this.

I soon forgot it all. It was like a bad dream that never happened. I forgot this incident entirely until I visited to a psychologist because of clinical depression. I never believed that it affected me. Sexually I was successful. I had a girlfriend at a normal age and have consumated many relationships after. This therapist explained my behavior differently. He noted how shallow all my romantic liaisons really were and that when I left my mate it was always just before she would do likewise because of my emotional frigidity. My relationships were very sexualized and contained some masochism : subservience. Instead of being close to my mate, I acted like her servant. She was my princess, but I was not her knight. I degraded myself and idolized her, always. When my relationships were over, I was never sad. I thought "c'est la vie". I went from one hypersexual relationship to another.

I continue my therapy and psychopharmaceutical treatment to this day.


No, merdique is not French for shitty!


Thanks for the references (none / 1) (#415)
by electricguy on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 11:43:27 PM EST

By coincidence - I am awakening to a very similary story. After 5 years of increasing anxiety and difficulty with relationships and drug addiction - I was finally forced to see a therapist. As much as I thought I had succesfully overcome what had happened, I have now learned that I need to remember what happened and how it has influenced all parts of my personality. It's like bringing two seperate worlds together in a collision. I am so glad I googled something that lead me to this post! It is so strange to read something that describes everything I feel.

References for; thanks the (none / 0) (#418)
by Sesquipundalian on Tue Jul 26, 2005 at 06:31:04 PM EST

By coincidence: I am awakening to a very reference (similar googled). Five after years of anxiety, drug addiction the rapist. As much as I (nullo collision), harpooned I feel.


Did you know that gullible is not actually an english word?
[ Parent ]
Useful link (3.00 / 2) (#416)
by 5pectre on Tue Jul 26, 2005 at 08:39:28 AM EST

click here!

"Let us kill the English, their concept of individual rights might undermine the power of our beloved tyrants!!" - Lisa Simpson [ -1.50 / -7.74]

Are 1 in 3 women... (none / 1) (#423)
by BlahFace on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 10:33:48 PM EST

...really raped/molested before the age of 18?

Could I get a link to back this up?

Coping with Childhood Sexual Abuse | 419 comments (355 topical, 64 editorial, 0 hidden)
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