Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
"Murder Simulators" East/West

By nostalgiphile in Culture
Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 10:22:39 AM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)
Culture

Murder Simulators East, or "Your actions were dishonorable, therefore I must dismember you"

Last month, on a muggy Wednesday afternoon, a machete-wielding 19 year old teenager charged into a crowded Taipei internet café and hacked another boy to death for having killed his online character in the popular "Blade-&-Sword" video game. In February, a 41 year old Shanghai man murdered a 26 year old fellow gamer he claimed "stole" his cyber sword (reportedly worth a whopping $870US in the "real world") in the "Legends of Mir 3" gaming world. The murderer, Qiu Chengwei, was reportedly laughed at by the police when he tried to report the theft of his virtual weapon, which he had loaned to a friend who then refused to return it. Swordless and without legal recourse, Qiu took the Law into his own hands, broke into his former friend's house, and stabbed him in his bed. Although they certainly have a grisly way of going about it, cases like these clearly illustrate that East Asians are eager to catch up with the West in terms of homicidal gaming traditions.


Murder Simulators West, or "Wouldn't it be cool if this were like really real?!"

Soon after Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold went on their infamous orgy of death and killed 12 students and a teacher at Columbine High School in 1998 an urban legend arose concerning Harris's video-gaming habits. It was believed that Harris had designed several levels of the video game Doom to look exactly like the interior of his high school, which was in turn populated with many of the hated teachers and classmates he subsequently murdered. Though only a legend, the Harris Levels are where the Trenchcoat Mafia were supposed to have undergone "murder training."

In 2003, Grand Theft Auto makers were charged with making "murder training" paraphernalia because 16 year old Devon Moore murdered two police officers and a dispatcher in an Alabama police station. According to the plaintiffs in the case, which is currently being re-tried, playing GTA too much incited Moore to snatch a gun from one of the police officers and proceeded to execute the other two men "GTA style."

Sound like a legitimate argument for a lawsuit? Well, according to K5s favorite whipping boy Jack Thompson, what happened was "The video game industry gave him a cranial menu that popped up in the blink of an eye, in that police station." If you think this is a rather pissy analogy, perhaps you should hear what the child psychologist involved in the case had to say about the "murder training" software:
"[W]hen a young man with a developing brain, already angry, spends hours and hours and hours rehearsing violent acts, and then, and he's put in this situation of emotional stress, there's a likelihood that he will literally go to that familiar pattern that's been wired repeatedly, perhaps thousands and thousands of times."
This is the behaviorist view that humans are not unlike Pavlov's dogs--we can be programmed, wired, or brainwashed into doing violence on our fellow critters provided we watch enough X-rated violence. For the behaviorist, all it takes is a bad mood, several hours of mindless violence--kicking in the skulls of skanky crackwhores and unloading shotguns into cartoon cop heads--to turn you into a real live homicidal maniac. This model is a simple, neat, uninteresting explanation of the games controversy. It makes the same mistake that earlier arguments about political art made: there is no way to determine what kind of propaganda art, if any, will cause the masses to rush out into the streets and make a revolution. Moreover, it does not, and probably cannot, consider the process whereby one is supposed to take that imaginative leap from play-slaughter into real life mass murdering. Basically, there is no evidence that even the most violent games can implant some Manchurian Candidate style "trigger" in us.

Conclusion
Wouldn't it be far better if lawyers and politicians were to go after real live online gaming disputes and cases where criminals actions are about to take place like those mentioned at the beginning of this article? For example, last week police in Taichung captured a notorious mafia boss called Evil Dragon, a man who has been at the top of Taiwan's Most Wanted List for ages. It turns out Evil Dragon was a hardcore gamer and the police cracked the case by figuring out his online handle and tracing that to his actual whereabouts from his IP address. A fine case of cops circumventing further crime by being tech-savvy and staying tuned to what's going on in their culture, but also a case where the real and virtual/online worlds clearly do intersect.

To summarize, whereas western gamers are supposed to kill out of pre-programmed reflex, acting as our well-trained lab mouse would after playing shoot `em ups too long, oddly enough Asian gamers seem to prefer to kill for the good old values like justice and property rights. Odd that, as clearcut cases of gaming-related violence based on weird notions of ethics and/or civil liberties continue to appear in the news, no one can seem to come up with anything better than a monkey-see monkey-do theory of "murder simulation."

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Poll
After a game of GTA what do you most like to do?
o Smack your bitch around. 23%
o Rob a liquor store. 19%
o Go for a nice good driveby with the top down. 19%
o Perform a hatecrime down at the local pakishop. 17%
o A bit of fast-paced vehicular homicide. 19%

Votes: 51
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o "Blade-&am p;-Sword"
o murdered
o "Legends of Mir 3"
o infamous orgy of death
o video-gami ng habits.
o Harris Levels
o "murder training"
o Jack Thompson
o child psychologist
o behavioris t
o political art
o mass murdering
o last week
o his actual whereabouts
o property rights
o Also by nostalgiphile


Display: Sort:
"Murder Simulators" East/West | 117 comments (101 topical, 16 editorial, 0 hidden)
this is the relationship (1.66 / 15) (#3)
by circletimessquare on Tue Aug 02, 2005 at 07:18:35 PM EST

between sex and movies,

videogames and violence,

bad social hygiene and the internet:

the internet, movies, and videogames do not create sexual behavior, violent behavior, or bad social behavior

in fact, violence, sex, and crude social interaction existed... get ready for it... long before the invention of the cinema, the computer, or the internet

yes, i know shocking

so what is the nature of the relationship?

sex in the media decreases asocial sexual impulses in real life

violence in the media decreases bloody and dnagerous impulses in real life

rude behavior on the internet decreases real life rude behavior

that's the truth

anyone who is interested in decreasing rape, murder, and hotheaded assholes in real life should learn to love pornography, grand theft auto, and internet trolls

what is released between the pages of playboy, on the game controller, or on the computer keyboard, is not released in the real world

to curtail pornography, violent videogames, or internet trolling is to simply move the same behavior in the real world

to think otherwise is to believe that human beings are empty vessels of purity, and that violent, sexual and rude impulses are introduced from outside forces

and if you believe that, you haven't been around any kindergarteners in a loooooong time

that's the ironclad truth


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

lol what (3.00 / 4) (#5)
by loffloff on Tue Aug 02, 2005 at 07:33:53 PM EST

what is released between the pages of playboy, on the game controller, or on the computer keyboard

so ur saying that you ejaculate on your keyboards and game controllers???

xoxoxoxox

[ Parent ]

It pays to quote properly (2.66 / 3) (#8)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Tue Aug 02, 2005 at 11:20:01 PM EST

Unless you write for The Sun.

what is released between the pages of playboy, on the game controller, or on the computer keyboard, is not released in the real world

The reason for this is simple: we're all full of shit ~ circletimessquare
[ Parent ]

Wait (none / 0) (#117)
by carbon on Wed Oct 05, 2005 at 10:39:27 PM EST

So he's saying that he imagines ejaculating on his keyboards and game controllers?

Wasn't Dr. Claus the bad guy on Inspector Gadget? - dirvish
[ Parent ]
WTF is ur? NT (none / 0) (#24)
by shm on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 08:26:41 AM EST



[ Parent ]
a legendary lost city (3.00 / 5) (#84)
by Sigismund of Luxemburg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 03:11:49 AM EST


ANONYMISED
[ Parent ]
double-spacing hurts my eyes!!!! (none / 1) (#15)
by dimaq on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 03:57:16 AM EST

dude seriousely reconsider your style of comments, all those super-short paragraphs look like double-spaced lines and impossible to read!

[ Parent ]
sorry (2.25 / 8) (#16)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 05:21:14 AM EST

but i simply don't care


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I'm pretty sure he's why (none / 1) (#58)
by Maurkov on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 12:29:40 PM EST

they invented the wheel mouse.  One twitch of the index finger and he's gone.  To make this comment topical, when you do it, imagine shooting.


[ Parent ]
ahhh (none / 0) (#67)
by circletimessquare on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 06:00:32 PM EST

so that's how inbred cretins amuse themselves

there's:

  1. expressing yourself in words well
  2. suppressing the desire to be civil, and expressing yourself in words badly (me)
  3. suppressing civilty, and thought, and expressing yourself through violence
  4. and finally, you: suppressing civilty, the brain AND your willpower, and masturbating over your violent fantasies all to yourself
and i'm the loser ;-P

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

+1FP rips on behaviourism n/t (2.00 / 3) (#4)
by stuaart on Tue Aug 02, 2005 at 07:26:36 PM EST


Linkwhore: [Hidden stories.] Baldrtainment: Corporate concubines and Baldrson: An Introspective


Its interesting that (3.00 / 8) (#7)
by minerboy on Tue Aug 02, 2005 at 08:51:32 PM EST

Jack Thompson is a scottish euphemism for a penis. (ye olde John Thomas to the english)



Where in Scotland? /no text in box below kthnx (none / 0) (#54)
by A Bore on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:17:19 AM EST



[ Parent ]
Not that I've ever heard. (none / 0) (#65)
by TheMgt on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 03:35:53 PM EST

Where did you hear this ?

[ Parent ]
from a Scottish acquaintance (none / 0) (#72)
by minerboy on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 08:45:38 PM EST

for example - we're all Jack thompson's bairns



[ Parent ]
The word 'kid' always gets thrown out (3.00 / 12) (#11)
by cburke on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 01:17:29 AM EST

Which basically just muddies the waters.  People talk about "kids" playing and being influenced by violent games like GTA.  But "kids" can mean a lot of things.  I don't think five year olds should play GTA, they really are influenced too much by whatever they see, and are still grasping the idea of consequences.  But if by the time you are sixteen playing GTA is the difference between you being a well-adjusted member of society and a cop killer, then you were already balanced on the knife's edge of psychosis anyway.  If you equate a real human life with the life of a pixelated representation of a cop in a video game and you've hit puberty then you are nuts, you are a sociopath, and something went wrong in your early childhood but it is too late for you.

So to me when people say "children shouldn't be playing these games because they're violent" I agree except they want to apply it to kids in high school.

Of course the whole idea of games mentally training you for killing is a claim that could only be made by someone who's never played games.  If he had really been so influenced by GTA, he would have known getting booked means going along with the cops so you can pay the bribe and be released, and that drawing a weapon in the police station, especially if it's just a pistol, is a really bad idea.  Stealing a cop car for your escape is a worse idea (unless maybe he wanted to become a vigilante).  If he had played too much Counterstrike instead, he would have tried to escape by drawing a knife and hopping, and would expect that thanks to his three kills he'll be reincarnated with enough money to buy a better weapon and some body armor.

The very concept of Doom -- Doom! -- as a "murder trainer" is ridiculous.  What real-world murder-related skill can you learn from Doom?  Circle-strafing?

Games like GTA are as much "murder trainers" as whac-a-mole is a trainer for a job in pest control.  Though on the other hand every time I see a burrowing rodent I am oddly compelled to bash their heads in with mallets.  And after I do, I always look about me with a quizical expression for a few moments, looking for the tickets I can exchange for cheap plastic pieces of crap.

Funny you should mention Doom... (none / 1) (#13)
by nostalgiphile on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 01:34:09 AM EST

It is the game that was originally labeled a "murder simulator" by the Killology Research Group.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
Killology. Kill-ology. Kill-fucking-ology?! (none / 1) (#74)
by cburke on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 10:09:17 PM EST

That's just awesome.  Please tell me these people are little more than snake artists and have no real influence.  They've got an army seargent talking about how shooting somebody in a war changes you as a person, and then a bunch of crap about how pretending to shoot somebody is just like that.

But man, that name is great.

[ Parent ]

Killographic? (none / 0) (#94)
by grendelkhan on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 03:36:16 PM EST

No, no... stuponfucious.
-- Laws do not persuade just because they threaten --Seneca
[ Parent ]
Years ago (3.00 / 8) (#14)
by ubernostrum on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 03:02:19 AM EST

Back when Slashdot actually ran interesting shtuff, there was an article on the decrease in murders and violent crimes committed by minors since Doom was released. I find it's handy to have as a reference for these sorts of arguments.




--
You cooin' with my bird?
Thanks... (none / 0) (#30)
by nostalgiphile on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 09:34:48 AM EST

That is useful and well-written.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
+1 Informative! (none / 0) (#43)
by Sgt York on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 03:06:00 PM EST

Great article. Thanks for the link.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

Nothing to do with video games (none / 0) (#55)
by Thrasymachus on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 11:03:22 AM EST

The kids most likely to commit violence came from economic backgrounds of serious poverty—these are not the sort of kids that typically owned Doom.

The end of the worst of the crack epidemic and a booming economy had far more to do with the reduction of violence.

[ Parent ]
Am I completely alone (2.71 / 7) (#18)
by nebbish on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 05:52:02 AM EST

in finding that playing FPSs makes me more aggressive? If I've had a marathon session I'm more irritable afterwards, but also (unlike when I've been playing Animal Crossing or something), I just somehow feel more violent.

I'm not the sort of idiot who'd act on these feelings, but I can't help thinking there is at least something in the video games/violence argument.

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee

Adrenaline (3.00 / 4) (#19)
by curien on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 06:22:00 AM EST

makes you violent. It also is very short-lived.

--
We are not the same. I'm an American, and you're a sick asshole.
[ Parent ]
Testosterone nt (none / 0) (#80)
by livus on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:08:20 AM EST



---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
It's action movies for me (2.66 / 3) (#20)
by Eight Star on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 06:22:23 AM EST

I'm fine after a bout of quake or whatever, but I will kick your ass matrix-style.

[ Parent ]
Yes and no (none / 1) (#22)
by LittleZephyr on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 06:31:52 AM EST

Depends on how well the session goes, and certain games make me more irritable than others.

The Specialists mod for Half-life, Enemy Territory, and any sort of game where I can really get into a groove generally leave me as usual. Game like Quake, Unreal, or Counter-Strike where you have to constantly be on your toes and deaths can be annoying can be irritating. Generally single player games are better than multiplayer.

I do however have memories of plyaing Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 4: Turtles in Time when I was like 9 and then trying to emulate the moves I saw.
(\♥/) What if instead of posting that comment,
(0.-) you had actually taken a knife and stabbed
("_") me in the eye? You murderer. ~ Rusty

[ Parent ]

Just once... (none / 1) (#36)
by vhold on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 11:12:23 AM EST

Most games, even very competitive games, will generally relax me, even if I'm experiencing little shots of adrenaline (pretty rare) here and there.

One time though I actually struck a friend in the face mostly unintentionally because of Devil May Cry 3.  I don't know if you are familiar with this game, but it is basically insanely difficult, and boss fights in particular will wear your nerves very thin because you'll have to keep your reactions razor sharp constantly for 5 or so minutes.

It was after I had lost a fight that I was just on the edge of winning and I threw my head back in frustration, my nerves blasting.  He was standing over me kinda pretending like he was about to hit me, and in that split second my reflexes were still completely wired, I just threw my palm straight up instinctively, intending to push his arm, but I did it so fast, I glanced off his arm into the side of his face.  I had to get an icepack to control the minor sweeling, I felt extremely bad.

It's important to note he had also been bugging me about whether or not he could get something out of the kitchen during the fight, and that in the state of mind that I was in, it was extremely aggrevating to be distracted, so in some sense I blamed him for losing in the first place.

Oh yes, it's also important to note that I had been drinking and had a decent buzz on (which really didn't help with the game either), but nothing like this had even remotely happened before, but I'm sure it was an important contributing factor.

The mix of adrenaline, alcohol, and something else was just a bit too much for my frontal cortex.

Movies on the other hand have definitely left me 'feeling violent' many times afterwards, and I'd guess it's because you never have your own release, you're just kind of absorbing it the whole time.  I've never done anything as a result of that feeling though.

[ Parent ]

Hmm...now that takes me back (none / 1) (#41)
by nostalgiphile on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 02:34:50 PM EST

I remember watching my 2 best friends, call em K & D, play a really long, intense, and very close game of chess once. When K finally realized he'd lost he looked up at D, thought he saw a smirk there, and tossed the board, pieces and all, across the table at D's face. Now, if a stray rook had gone into D's eye would he have had grounds for a lawsuit against the manufacturer of the chess set? Hmm, wonder if Jack Thompson would take a case like that...maybe I should send him some mail about this.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
Chess: the original murder simulator (3.00 / 4) (#44)
by cburke on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 03:13:06 PM EST

And don't get me started on Go, which is basically practice for genocide as you surround pockets of your opponent's population and systematically wipe them out.


[ Parent ]
Not me (none / 0) (#42)
by Sgt York on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 02:54:00 PM EST

I play FPS games normally to blow off some steam. If I've had a particularly bad day, I plop down in front of the computer and blow stuff up, I always feel relaxed afterwards.

This is why Serious Sam is one of my absolute favorite games.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

you are not alone... I am here with yoououu (3.00 / 2) (#79)
by livus on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:07:34 AM EST

similarly, RTS games make me slightly more strategic and playing Sims always makes me feel like I should organise my life.

I don't play FPS but violent films make me feel more violent. Eating scenes and death scenes make me feel hungry.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

My opinion (1.22 / 9) (#23)
by psychologist on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 07:29:25 AM EST

This, I believe is the main difference between white people and the rest of the world. When people in the rest of the world kill other people, they have a reason.

But White people do shit "just because".

See, the asian guy got his sword stolen. Get revenge, all good. Even Osama Bin Laden got his reason for killing people. But white people, they stand up one day and think to themselves: does today not feel like they perfect day to go out...and kill people?

And, more importantly, (none / 1) (#25)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 08:34:00 AM EST

Serial killers and the likes are always white (apart from that japanese guy).

The reason for this is simple: we're all full of shit ~ circletimessquare
[ Parent ]

Come on now ... (none / 0) (#73)
by isometrick on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:52:14 PM EST

... only 4/5 are white.

[ Parent ]
Your opinion (2.20 / 5) (#32)
by TripMaster Monkey on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 10:10:21 AM EST

So, absically, you opinion boils down to: killing for a reason (even a 'reason' as patently absurd as theft of virtual goods) is morally superior to killing for no reason at all.  According to this, you seem to feel murder is justified for the right reasons, and your criteria for those resons seems frighteningly lax.

Perhaps you feel that the Japanese man who stabbed another man fatally in the head with an umbrella in the subway a few years ago was justified as well, since the other man did not address him with the proper honorific.  Perhaps you feel that numerous gang killings across the nation were justified as well, since the victims 'dissed' the assailants.

When you get down to it, the white people you seem to despise so are actually more honest about their lethal proclivities, as they do not feel compelled to offer lame excuses in their defense.
__________

|rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

[ Parent ]
Where did he say they were justified? (none / 0) (#48)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 09:06:37 PM EST

All he said was that white people kill for no reasons and other ethnic groups kill for a reason. This doesn't mean that it's okay to kill people.

He's right though. Killing someone for no reason whatsoever is far more despicable than having a reason to do so. In fact, it's fucking sick to think that someone would commit murder for the sake of it.

When you get down to it, the white people you seem to despise so are actually more honest about their lethal proclivities, as they do not feel compelled to offer lame excuses in their defense.

WTF? Are you serious? Having no reason doesn't make a man honest. No, it makes them sick and incapable of self-control. Motive is not an excuse, it's a reason, pure and simple. Having no motive doesn't make a man honest.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

another insane opinion from Psychologist (3.00 / 2) (#81)
by livus on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:09:44 AM EST

strongly discourage.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
racism, implied violence, stupid people (none / 0) (#85)
by circletimessquare on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 03:15:27 AM EST

welcome to k5

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Yey (none / 0) (#87)
by bugmaster on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:31:06 AM EST

This is why I like Psychologist. He's so unapologetically incoherent, you gotta love it.
>|<*:=
[ Parent ]
Well, what do you expect? (none / 0) (#93)
by grendelkhan on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 03:35:01 PM EST

White people are just born that way. It's their savage nature. It's up to the rest of us to civilize them, you know.
-- Laws do not persuade just because they threaten --Seneca
[ Parent ]
In lieu of a postface (none / 1) (#29)
by nostalgiphile on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 09:32:43 AM EST

I wrote this as a recovering RTCW: Enemy Territory addict. Although I don't talk about it here, I think there is nothing more wrongheaded about the way parents, pyschologists, and lawyers approach the "psycho-social" problems of video games than the fact that no one seems to want to study the psychologically "addictive" properties of (good) video games.

In my experience, if there is a health/psychological risk at all involved in playing video games it is this addictive quality that many seem to have. Several of my best friends play online games as much as they work or have no social life outside of the game, and I myself narrowly missed not finishing my dissertation because of my ET habit. I reckon this is because it makes for far less sensational news to sue a company because their game was "addictive" than it is to sue them because the game "made me want to riddle my classroom with TEC9 rounds."

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
I'd play more ET (none / 0) (#38)
by MMcP on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 12:40:13 PM EST

But I cannot stay alive more then 12 seconds at a time.  Did Korea get ahold of that one, or what?

[ Parent ]
Enemy Territory (none / 0) (#86)
by nostalgiphile on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 03:27:56 AM EST

ET is an awesome game and the new version looks awesome and awesomer still. The level of team play is by far best and I've never experienced a more exciting game environment, even though the graphics are sub par at best by current standards. But then again, the game is free so you can't really complain about that.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
Addiction (none / 0) (#59)
by JVincent on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 12:49:51 PM EST

People are to quick to call the addiction card on games, your average gamer could no more be called an addict then a football player, dancer or a singer, the only difference seems to be that the later have managed to provide economic support for the most addicted. Gaming is ofcause also doing this, but noone seems to know or care.

[ Parent ]
except (3.00 / 2) (#77)
by Work on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 12:02:33 AM EST

football players/dancers/singers are often able to run their lives normally. You know, they dont forget to pay bills or say, write their dissertations, because they're too busy doing whatever it is they're doing.

I know of one person who is I think one could call clinically addicted to an online game. His electricity has been cut off more than once because he forgot to pay his bills. His grades declined to the point where he had to drop an entire semester's worth of courses. His roommate moved out on him because she couldnt take his lack of responsibility anymore, after picking up his slack on attaining rent and bills.

Surprisingly, the guy does have a girlfriend who plays the same game almost as much as he does. She's kind of an enabler to the pattern of destructive behavior.

Internet and gaming addictions are real. There are alot of people out there who do nothing but spend their days online, socializing with only strangers half the world away, and letting their real lives pass them by.

[ Parent ]

Internet addiction clinic (none / 0) (#71)
by black orchidness on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 08:10:12 PM EST

China opened an internet addiction clinic not too long ago.

[ Parent ]
Hmm I agree with Hilary etc. (2.66 / 3) (#33)
by The Diary Section on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 10:11:09 AM EST

I think you have to question pretty closely the motivations of people who are in the business of pushing murder simulators onto our children. Gotta love those double standards.
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
Or to put it another way (none / 1) (#34)
by The Diary Section on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 10:13:54 AM EST

there is a serious debate to be had about the place of violence in our societies but it tends to be the case that we don't really want to think too hard about it. FWIW I'm certainly no pascifist myself.
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
[ Parent ]
Violence in our societieS... (none / 0) (#52)
by nostalgiphile on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 06:52:59 AM EST

I like the fact that you use society in the plural. This article was mainly intended to stimulate discussion about the issue of "violence in video games" across cultures and to open a debate about whether America really is exceptional in terms of the violence of its culture (due to the media or not). The same patterns appear, and in Taiwan, the ever sensationalistic Apple Daily latched onto the event of the Taipei murder to attack the game "Blade & Sword" for being too violent. But I tried to show that the character of the violence is quite different in the East. Perhaps that's being overly optimistic, but that's what the piece is aimed at.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
"America's Army" (none / 1) (#35)
by nostalgiphile on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 11:09:45 AM EST

"America's Army" is a great game, full of intense gore and good graphics, but if it's so harmful for us, why does the government produce it and offer it for free on the internet? (A further argument against prosecuting cases of "game-inspired murder"?). Maybe AA is a bit of warmongering propaganda, but on the other hand it is fairly well done propaganda from an aesthetic and/or technical point of view.Let the army design free war games all they want I say, it's the cost of maybe, what?, one free Israel attack helicopter?

Anyway, you see, to claim that the gaming industry is doing anything different than what films like "Saving Private Ryan," or "Natural Born Killers" is doing is completely bogus even by the logic of Hilary & Co. (Most people still watch TV more than they play video games). Don't forget that the censorship of one domain entails the censorship of all.



"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
Well indeed (3.00 / 4) (#39)
by The Diary Section on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 01:23:00 PM EST

We want lots of violent young men when we want to kill a load of other violent young men using them. But at all other times we'd quite like to forget such people exist. I'd draw a parallel with Enron, we quie like haing aggressive entreprenurs who push the rules to deliver a profit, only, we don't. It reminds me a lot of Victorian England which is why I wonder if in the modern era empires don't collapse because of a lack of military prowess or money, they collapse at the point the internal moral contradictions (given one is also trying to spread a view of morality) of what you need to maintain empire become too great to manage...
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
[ Parent ]
Well, well indeed... (none / 1) (#40)
by nostalgiphile on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 02:27:38 PM EST

But you see, you're commiting that games-as-brainwashing fallacy again. You make me think of Victorian England too, only what you reminded of is the way that it was often claimed that young women who read novels too much would become licentious little sluts or troublesome free-thinkers. See the same logic repeated again with anti-pornography snoots today--wanking off to dirty pictures of one kind or another will make you become a pervert. My point is, there is no causal, logical, or scientific connection between these two purportedly linked types of behavior and if you seriously believe there is then you're halfway down the road to neocon hell.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
Ah not really (3.00 / 2) (#45)
by The Diary Section on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 03:33:02 PM EST

I was trying to suggest its more an "out of sight out of mind" thing. Its a reaction against the way the world is going for Americans; violence over seas and a hyper-sexualised society. Victorian society had the same problem; the golden age of prostitution and the "lure of the exotic". Thats the crime violent computer games and porn really commit for most people who have a problem with them. The idea they "cause" anything is really an excuse.
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
[ Parent ]
Nah... (none / 0) (#47)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 09:00:34 PM EST

He's agreeing with what you're saying bro and he makes a good point in support of your claim.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
Question (none / 0) (#70)
by black orchidness on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 08:06:50 PM EST

Why does the CIA website use all caps and spell "SADDAM Husayn" like that? Did I not watch the news or something and they changed it? Or wait, maybe it's like how they're not calling it the war on terror anymore, it's now The Struggle Against Extremism.

[ Parent ]
The CIA factbook capitalizes surnames. (none / 0) (#92)
by your_desired_username on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:41:28 PM EST

Surnames are always spelled with capital letters; they may appear first in some cultures.

From http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/docs/faqs.html#Spelling .

[ Parent ]

Infiltration (none / 0) (#96)
by Razitshakra on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:16:36 PM EST

The CIA has been infiltrated by the French. That's why.

--
Lets ride / You and I / In the midnight ambulance
- The Northern Territories
[ Parent ]
I liked it +1FP (none / 1) (#46)
by uptownpimp on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 03:45:48 PM EST



=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
Doom was a mistake. (3.00 / 7) (#49)
by taste on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 10:24:36 PM EST

i once posted on a bbs that DOOM was the device of Satan that would bring about the eventual moral decline of our society, and that Carmack should have replaced the weapons various watering cans, the unsanctimonious undead with angry looking flowers and call the game BLOOM, but did he listen? Noooooo... see where that got us now.

But the real culprit is.... (3.00 / 2) (#56)
by Rahyl on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 11:20:07 AM EST

There is an exponentially stronger correlation between consuming softdrinks and murder than playing games and murder. Let's see their staticians crunch on that for a while...

That is why correlations suck ass (none / 0) (#69)
by black orchidness on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 07:58:58 PM EST

I see the point you are trying to make though. Blaming murder on video games is about as effective as blaming it on consumption of softdrinks. But considering the fact that the syrup they use in Coca-Cola has to be transported in a hazardous substance tank, it might be entirely possible.

[ Parent ]
That really dumb. (none / 1) (#83)
by LittleZephyr on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 03:08:29 AM EST

Hydrocholic acid is also transported in hazardous material tanks, but guess what, it's in your stomach ALL THE TIME OMGOHNOES

Just because something is bad at high concentrations doesn't mean it can't be delicious and refreshing when mixed with fizzy water.
(\♥/) What if instead of posting that comment,
(0.-) you had actually taken a knife and stabbed
("_") me in the eye? You murderer. ~ Rusty

[ Parent ]

he must have (2.16 / 6) (#57)
by demi on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 12:20:22 PM EST

stolen my fucking cloudsong

Games DO make me violent. (3.00 / 10) (#60)
by kelbear on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 01:50:09 PM EST

In fact, I've got 2 and a half people in my backyard to prove it. I think it started when I had to fight Bowser 8 times only to rescue Toad again. My spiral into depression and drug use rose with every delay of Duke Nukem Forever. The demon within me remained silent, but the fires of my rage grew with every "M-M-M-M-MONSTERKILL!". After particularly invigorating sessions of Pokemon Gold, I would sit in the bathroom crying and cutting myself. The killings finally began shortly after EA announced a Battlefield 2 expansion pack before even releasing a working patch for the regular game.

I can only imagine how many bodies I'll stack up when Day of Defeat: Source gets pushed back to 2006, even after having paid for it ages ago.

Just thinking about it makes me want to eat babies, invade a small middleeastern country, install Realplayer, work for Microsoft, download music, crash a space shuttle, and kidnap a blonde girl.

Yeah, it's the games that make me crazy. It's ridiculous to suggest that I might be crazy to begin with...

*I am dead, leave a message and I'll get back to you as soon as possible.*

+1 cutting yourself (none / 0) (#61)
by klem on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 02:41:04 PM EST



[ Parent ]
+1 I would like to see that as a movie... (none / 0) (#63)
by nostalgiphile on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 02:58:57 PM EST

Your murderous desires are noted, and I can feel your pain brother gamer.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
The real problem: morons (3.00 / 5) (#62)
by notaddicted on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 02:44:28 PM EST

"[W]hen a young man with a developing brain, already angry, spends hours and hours and hours rehearsing violent acts, and then, and he's put in this situation of emotional stress, there's a likelihood that he will literally go to that familiar pattern that's been wired repeatedly, perhaps thousands and thousands of times."

Yeah yeah, every time I see a police officer I move the control stick and press 'X'.

I know that everyone here knows that games are fine, but think, realistically what you're complaining about.

The problem here is that people in general are lazy morons, and there isn't much to be done about that now that eugenics isn't so hot.

Um, what are we complaining about? (none / 0) (#64)
by nostalgiphile on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 03:02:18 PM EST

You think people are lazy morons, okay, but I'm not sure I see your point...Games are for unambitious slavering dolts?

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
Games *are* for unambitious dolts! (3.00 / 2) (#66)
by Polverone on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 05:51:59 PM EST

Clash of the mouthbreathing titans: what happens when the irresistibly doltish meets the unmovably asinine? That's hardcore gamers vs. antigame hysteria (or potheads vs. antidrug hysteria). I can barely believe that such mundane things inspire so much love and hate. I'm a bit disturbed by adults who choose to make games or drugs (or crusading against games or drugs) a major part of their personal identity. It's like those uncomfortable encounters with mentally impaired people on the bus.
--
It's not a just, good idea; it's the law.
[ Parent ]
You must doubly hate pro sports players (none / 0) (#76)
by cburke on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 10:57:14 PM EST

I guess they are kinda weird, though.

[ Parent ]
Yeah...okay, and your comment (none / 1) (#78)
by nostalgiphile on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 12:42:41 AM EST

tells me that, if this is such an insignificant topic, I shouldn't even bother replying to your asinine comment about an doltish subject to begin with. So I won't.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
Victimization (3.00 / 6) (#68)
by starX on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 07:26:09 PM EST

To summarize, whereas western gamers are supposed to kill out of pre-programmed reflex, acting as our well-trained lab mouse would after playing shoot `em ups too long, oddly enough Asian gamers seem to prefer to kill for the good old values like justice and property rights. Odd that, as clearcut cases of gaming-related violence based on weird notions of ethics and/or civil liberties continue to appear in the news, no one can seem to come up with anything better than a monkey-see monkey-do theory of "murder simulation

The reason is that "I did it because I couldn't find any other justice for the 'theft' of my video game sword" would never convince a jury that you don't deserve punishment.  That's a pretty clear cut case of revenge, and pretty clearly a crime.  The strategy that these lawyers are using is to make a victim outof the criminal.  These actions are otherwise indefensible, after all.  They're savvy enough to know their best bet is a dodge; find an uber-villain whom can be held more accountable, and show how our currently on trial bad guy is really a victim of the real bad guy, which just happens to be either a giant corporate entity or a nebulous concept, both of which are notoriously difficult to prosecute.  In most cases, I think they realize full well they stand no chance of winning the case, what they're looking for is some means of reduced or alternate punishment.  

"I like you starX, you disagree without sounding like a fanatic from a rock-solid point of view. Highfive." --WonderJoust

Revenge (none / 0) (#89)
by nostalgiphile on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:46:16 AM EST

Yes, revenge is a real motive, but revenge for what is a consideration in any murder case. The injustice felt by the Shanghai man was tangible enough for him to commit murder, but what he killed for was something intangible (a bit of code said to be worth $800) and even his "ownership" of said item could be called fairly fictional and problematic from a legal standpoint. No one is saying his actions were defensible, in any case, and my point in citing it was to indicate that "video game crimes East" take a much different direction than those in the West.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
It's not the crime itself (none / 0) (#91)
by starX on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:26:50 PM EST

that is going in a different direction, if anything it is the defense of the crime, but without any formal legal data on the prosecution of these crimes in Asia, we can't even really make that comparison.

"I like you starX, you disagree without sounding like a fanatic from a rock-solid point of view. Highfive." --WonderJoust
[ Parent ]
Murder (none / 0) (#100)
by nostalgiphile on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:58:51 PM EST

Perhaps I should have said the "alleged" motives are different in my comment? In the West it's "vgs trigger mindless mass murders," and in the east it's vgs murder for revenge. Sure, it would be nice if the PRC had due process of law and open courts so we could see how they prosecute this, but it doesn't, what with being a corrupt fascist dictatorship and all. As for the Taiwan murder, clearly it was also a revenge killing and will be treated as such without recourse to suing the game's producer.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
a subject (none / 0) (#99)
by oe800 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:17:59 PM EST

He likely played the game for hundreds of hours... it's a real crime to take some tangible thing purchased with hundreds of hours of labor. But yeah, you're not supposed to kill somebody over a thousand dollars and anything over that isn't even stealing. Imagine somebody starving because you took a million dollars from them, lol, not likely. They /needed/ legal intervention in this case because it truely represents pretend/projected wealth - the stuff of skyscrapers.
Do not needlessly endanger your lives until I give you the signal. -- http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower
[ Parent ]
Didn't have video games when I was a child (3.00 / 6) (#75)
by cburke on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 10:48:39 PM EST

Under ten, anyway.  Instead I roamed around in the dense vegetation (as in completely uncared for and overgrown) back yard of my neighbor carrying a roughly carved wooden machine gun trying to sneak up on other boys from the neighborhood so I could shoot them in the back.  I had to sneak up on them so I could really splatter their brains out (and not get in an argument over who shot first).

It only went down hill from there.  Frankly, video games have a long way to go before they catch up with my imagination.  That's why blood splatters were one of the first graphical enhancements I added to a Quake mod. Because when I imagined smacking someone with an axe there was always lots of blood.

I have yet to kill anybody.  I doubt I will, because even in the scenarios where I imagine I would try, they've already pulled the gun on me and I'm wasting precious seconds thinking "WTF?!" before I die.    Kids will constantly say to one another "I killed you!  I shot your head off!"   But nobody really died, so it's okay.

Maybe that's why this seems so obvious to me.  It's the same thing I did when I was a small child, only with electronic visual aids instead of a wooden gun and a suburban back yard.

"I killed you! I shot your head off!" (3.00 / 3) (#82)
by nostalgiphile on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:27:58 AM EST

Same here, no video games worth a shit in my childhood. Instead, my toy swords and guns probably fueled my pre-teen imagination more than any video game today could. And that's kinda the point actually, that with these games there's not much left to the homicidal imagination of a young man--and therefore they don't really do much to make you "imagine" the act of murder as a killer would, they just let you "see" the graphic violence in a manner no more or less gruesome than your average Hollywood shoot-em-up.

But I disagree with you on one point. The boy who points his toy gun and says "I killed you! I shot your head off!" is using the "I" pronoun, whereas the boy who moves his character around in the video game knows there is a character who is "my guy" and who is nearly superhuman in his ability to murder. Don't forget that crucial fictional element. I is always I, but when I read/play/watch another "I" (with quotes), I know it aint me. One trick the lawyers and psychologists against violence in video games like to play is by saying, well, kids can't make such subtle distinctions.

I disagree, of course, and think that the young people are better able to make these distinctions if anything. But the reason I disagree is that the games that they single out as "murder simulators"--FPS games like GTA, Doom, etc.,--are all based on a more fictional "I" conceit than RPGs like Diablo, Everquest, or WoW where you actually name your character and form an "alternate identity" with him/her. (If you want to see a gamer with an impending identity crisis, look at a person who is wrapped up in games like Magic or WoW, esp. if they're trying to make money off of their gaming exploits).

Anyway, great comment. Thanks.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
good points (none / 0) (#88)
by epicedium1 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:57:59 AM EST

good points, rated up

[ Parent ]
I was always a superhuman murderer. (none / 0) (#97)
by cburke on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:35:04 PM EST

The boy who points his toy gun and says "I killed you! I shot your head off!" is using the "I" pronoun, whereas the boy who moves his character around in the video game knows there is a character who is "my guy" and who is nearly superhuman in his ability to murder.

I don't know about that.  I've heard and uttered the phrase "I shot your head off!" in any number of video games that lack the 1st person "I" point of view.  In Street Fighter 2 I would say "I kicked your ass!" not "Chun-li kicked Guile's ass!"  Just like when we get in a car accident we say "You hit me!" not "Your car hit my car!"  It's natural to extend our sense of "I" to those objects we are directly controlling, and even a five year old knows that it is they who are making the "guy" on the video game screen move and thus it is their actions that cause victory or defeat.

One trick the lawyers and psychologists against violence in video games like to play is by saying, well, kids can't make such subtle distinctions.

Not that I'm expecting you to make them sound completely rational, but out of curiosity how does that work to implicate games as a cause of violence?  If they don't view the killer in the game as "I", then how does that translate into them personally, as "I" as can be, going out and hurting people?  It sounds like that'd be the opposite of conditioning them to kill.

If you want to see a gamer with an impending identity crisis, look at a person who is wrapped up in games like Magic or WoW, esp. if they're trying to make money off of their gaming exploits

Sure, and those games tend to encourage the abandonment of your own persona for another.  While there are certainly people who get too wrapped up in it, in general I still say we view the avatar we control as an extension of ourselves (because we are directly controlling it) and it is thus really no different than pretending to be a soldier stalking through the jungle or any other role-playing scenario.

[ Parent ]

Parents (none / 1) (#90)
by uptownpimp on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:05:09 PM EST

need to pay more attention to their kids. Simple as that. Kids are brought up by TV and video games. Parents are too fucking lazy to care.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
I've played fps and tps game my whole life ... (none / 1) (#95)
by Specks on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 03:57:36 PM EST

I've played GTA, BF2, Moh, CoD, Doom, Quake I-II-II, Unreal and most of the old first person shooters and I do it all the time. Yet you don't see me donning an amy uniform and gun and going off and killing people when I'm put in a stressful situation. Sometimes I'd like to do that, but my better logic tells me not to. Why doesn't it happen? Because I know its not real and that its wrong to do things like that. Its all about how you were brought up by your parents, its not the games, its not the movies, its not the TV shows, its not the books. Its the parents! Its their job to teach logic, self control, and right and wrong.
Specks
I will admit... (3.00 / 5) (#98)
by kreyg on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:06:28 PM EST

I will admit that games may be harmful to people who can't separate reality from fantasy... people like politicians, lawyers and reporters. We shouldn't let video games within 40 feet of any of these whackos.

That is all.


There was a point to this story, but it has temporarily escaped the chronicler's mind. - Douglas Adams

Flawed (none / 1) (#101)
by clawDATA on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 06:42:18 AM EST

This is the behaviorist view that humans are not unlike Pavlov's dogs--we can be programmed, wired, or brainwashed into doing violence on our fellow critters provided we watch enough X-rated violence. For the behaviorist, all it takes is a bad mood, several hours of mindless violence--kicking in the skulls of skanky crackwhores and unloading shotguns into cartoon cop heads--to turn you into a real live homicidal maniac.

The flaw with this argument is that if this was true, then EVERYONE would be affected, not just the weirdos.

Video games make a convenient excuse, that's all. 20 years ago it was Heavy Metal. 50 years ago it was Rock and Roll. A hundred years ago they'd blame the devil.

They'd snap anyway, regardless of what they were doing at the time.

Games are not the cause (none / 1) (#102)
by Silver6 on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 01:11:34 AM EST

It seems to be an entirely rediculous social trend lately to blame video games for crime, because one crime or another is usually committed in these games, particularly murder. The thing to remember, and to remind everyone who believes differently, murderers and serial killers have ALWAYS existed, regardless of media influence. Was Columbine caused by a video game, or a lifetime of poor parenting and bad social experiences. Saying that violent video games often cause violent crime is fundamentally fooling yourself into believing that violent video games were the only inputs that these psychos have had.

Those who claim that violent video games should be regulated more closely or even outright banned should remember that ethnic genocide, wars, and drug-related crimes have, and ALWAYS will cause millions of deaths without question as to the cause, while dubious claims and conflicting studies affecting a small number of deaths is relatively unimportant.

Ridiculous indeed... (none / 1) (#105)
by nostalgiphile on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 05:33:36 AM EST

But nonetheless there are people who can make a living doing this sort of thing. Col. Grossman and attorney Thompson are raking in the big bucks and making the headlines while you and I just go "huh...I just don't get it."

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
Stop lying. (none / 0) (#103)
by A synx on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 05:10:37 AM EST

No just... no. Stop lying. "Bowling for Columbine" was more honest than this. That's sad.

Lies, lies, all lies... (none / 0) (#104)
by nostalgiphile on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 05:27:32 AM EST

You're right, the article doesn't contain an ounce of truth--except where I cite the case of the GTA lawsuit, which shoulda been a longer stinking filthy awful lie. Meanwhile, I am washing my own mouth out with soap and spanking my mutilated genitals in acts of repentence. --怀旧分子

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
I had to say, that online games were too violent. (none / 0) (#106)
by cnahbb on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 11:06:25 AM EST

Such as Legends of Mir series.
CNAHBB
Fuck Yes (none / 0) (#107)
by Vin Vilan on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 01:55:09 PM EST

Another great article.

Those people are total fucking badasses.

My god. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to waste some bitch in RL do to his actions in VR.

Trained lab rats, vs honor murders.

hehe

The difference is the peoples previous brainwashing.  The asians are taught of things such as honor. While in fat country people are programed to do what they are programed to do.

Brainwash the poor cause a war is comen. HAHA, what will it take to program them into revolution. What a joke, these few psycho killer badasses are just  predictable "lab fuckups". I'm sure the norm is, go to the army or become a cop shoot guns and kill people legally.

BTW, I don't know about most people but after 12 hours of GTA my mentality is certainly affected.  
~V~

Why would you want so much violence in games? (2.00 / 2) (#108)
by pornosheep on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 04:43:26 PM EST

I have been playing games for over 15 years. I understand that even violent games cannot turn the society as a whole into raging maniacs. However, there are several things that must be considered:

a) Games have not always been that realistic. The abstract concept of shooting some "blob" in 1990s games is not that bad. Doom 3 or Battlefield 2, on the other hand can  be quite convincing. The "effect" of videogame violence on kids (if it exists) may be related to the similarity between the video game situation and real life.

b) Quite a few people are in potentially "unstable" psychological conditions. I would guess that an approximate 0.5-1% of teenagers have some mild problems (in a psychiatric sense). Even slight effects may be significant in this population. Other factors may be more important, but now we are discussing games.

c) I want to raise the inverse question. I expect that the vast majority of kids that play GTA will grow to be mostly normal adults. However, what makes normal people want to play a game that simulates this sort of behaviour? What's so fun in killing people, stealing etc etc? I have played GTA for a few hours but, honestly, I don't think shooting pedestrians ought to be fun.

I can understand people wanting to see the "hot coffee" mod or watch pr0n. After all, the reproductive behaviour is an accepted part of our social life. But why do people enjoy mindless realistic violence? Is this just some primate instinct? After all people used to watch gladiators get eaten by lions just for fun.

Then again, maybe this is a product of our times and our contemporary values. Perhaps GTA and TV shows are violent because we are becoming more violent (not the cause, but the effect) or violence is becoming acceptable. Violence certainly is much more acceptable than sex, oddly enough!

Anyway, I think that sex and violence in games/TV would be harmless in moderation and in "appropriate" contexts. Shooting zombies or being a soldier at war is not the same as a mindless slaughter! The first case is unrealistic (not likely to provoke similar behaviour in real life) and the second case refers to special situations.

Realistic violence... (none / 0) (#109)
by nostalgiphile on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 09:05:03 PM EST

Realistic violence comes mainly from Hollywood, TV, and the nightly news--not even the best video games. Actually, I've noticed that all the FPS games I like have a certain cartoon-like appearance: "Enemy Territory" with its goofy Nazis (who speak with bad American accents, even in German), the way the soldiers run hunched over like trolls in "Call of Duty," and practically everything about "Medal of Honor," and even the basic premise of GTA should be seen with irony...It's a shame the cultural conservatives who attack games just don't seem able to "get it," cuz even my 13 yr old nephew can see the irony of GTA & co.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
psychological draws (none / 1) (#110)
by Silver6 on Mon Aug 08, 2005 at 12:18:13 AM EST

Its not so much a matter of wanting violence in games as it is a matter of enjoying games because of this violence. The reason that video games are such a huge industry is that people have the most fun doing things they are not able to do in real life, such as shoot people, or rob people. This is the reason that so many FPS exist. Look at The Sims, it was popular because people were able to live the daily lives of people without inhibition, which exists in the real world. If your sim dies, makes a bad decision, kisses someone, buys something, or does almost anything, it does not affect the real world, and people can contunue living their lives as they were.

[ Parent ]
Pacman turned me toward a life of addiction (none / 0) (#111)
by prolixity on Mon Aug 08, 2005 at 05:01:13 AM EST

Games don't need to be realistic to have a life-changing effect.  When I was twelve, I played pac-man obsessively.. munching those pills well into the early hours of the morning.

Thousands of hours later, my pavlovian desire to munch pills resulted in the real thing:  A real life response to the clonopins arranged on my coffee table.  

I was addicted - and hard.  

So don't discount the video games and their influences.  A game lacking photo-realistic graphics can still have a real-life impact on a developing teenager.
Bah!
[ Parent ]

What about the inverse? (none / 1) (#112)
by 5inay on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 09:57:29 PM EST

How many violent acts are prevented because people have a harmless outlet for aggression?

[ Parent ]
And yet sex is bad. (none / 1) (#113)
by resquad on Wed Aug 10, 2005 at 06:36:04 PM EST

Sex is uber bad, you cant have it in games at all.  But murder is ok?

Lets get our priorities strait.  Sex is something that two adults can legally do but its taboo for kids to even hear about.  Murder is something that is not legal for anyone - but we make games about it.  Yes we're trying to fix up thoes games, but where's the sex?  Make a GTA all about sex and no violence and people will play it just the same.


-----------
"I WIN THE END!" -Me

Sex vs violence... (none / 1) (#114)
by nostalgiphile on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 01:54:59 PM EST

Yep, most Europeans and many Asians would probably agree America is a damned puritanical society when it comes to sex. For ex., I can't imagine one of those Japanese dating games where your goal is to score with a schoolgirl in a sailor-suit uniform ever becoming popular in the US....A shame really, cuz those are kinda fun.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
Argument flaw. (none / 0) (#115)
by JavaLord on Wed Aug 17, 2005 at 01:01:29 PM EST

You say: [b]Although they certainly have a grisly way of going about it, cases like these clearly illustrate that East Asians are eager to catch up with the West in terms of homicidal gaming traditions. [/b] Yet the events you site later on, such as the colombine kids and the GTA wacko don't have the same motivation as the 'east asian' killer. When you look at the murders outside of the US that you mention, they all have one thing in common, the people killed other people over their in-game actions (ie stealing virtual goods). The colombine kids killed because they were being bullied. Nobody stole their doom shotgun. They weren't the first kids to strike back after being picked on, they just did so in a very violent way. You can argue that the glorification of gun violence motivated them (ie movies like the matrix, playing doom, etc) but they did not kill over events that happened in the video game, they were simply influenced by them. The same goes for GTA guy. Nobody took his virtual hookers away, he just acted out what he saw in game. Or it sounded like a good excuse after he went wacko to blame it on GTA.

It's called irony (none / 0) (#116)
by nostalgiphile on Thu Aug 18, 2005 at 02:24:21 AM EST

Clarification--the passage you cite is meant to be ironic: east asians are historically supposed to want to "catch up with the West" in terms of technology/science. In this piece I argued that the kinds of homicide supposedly stemming from vgs in E Asia are actually more legitimate--i.e., there are grounds for saying that murder motivations "arose" from the games. By contrast, the lawyers and pundits in the US who make wild claims about how murder "arose" from video games in US, however, are simply full of shit. Hence, the irony that Asians should want to "catch up" with this "tradition" (of blaming senseless murders on games).

If you're trying to tell me that they are quite different, then good, you are quite right and have understood the article...My goal was to make that distinction clear.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
"Murder Simulators" East/West | 117 comments (101 topical, 16 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest © 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!