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Hi, my name is Roger and I am a New Orleanian

By localroger in Culture
Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 05:48:31 AM EST
Tags: You Know... (all tags)
You Know...

I suppose I am twice lucky.

A little over two years ago, a tree fell on my house. I was pretty upset about it at the time, but it really should have killed me and it didn't. It really should have completely destroyed my house and it didn't, and after a few months of inconvenience and a fat check from my insurance company I only had the lack of shade in my back yard to remind of how close I had come to losing everything.

Five days ago hurricane Katrina fell on my city. I'm pretty upset about it, but it really should have killed a hell of a lot more people than it did. My own house appears to be intact, and after a month or two of inconvenience it seems likely that I will be able to move right back in.

But I'm not going to push my luck any further.


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The tree was there when I bought my house. It was, I would later find by measuring my lot, about 70 feet tall. It was not on my property, but a few feet on the other side of my back fence; the land it was planted in is a power line right-of-way for CLECO, the local electric utility. Looking after their own interests CLECO had removed all of the branches from the side of the tree facing their power lines. This left the tree very heavily lopsided in the direction of the house.

I bought the house anyway and didn't worry much about the tree. It had been there since before the subdivision was built and was quite healthy. I would at times sit in my hot tub and look up at it and think, well, if it ever goes it's only got one place to go. It did drop a branch on my screen house once, but the canopy didn't extend over my house. It didn't seem like such a big deal until Tropical Storm Bill (which I'd just finished describing as "pissant" in my diary here) undermined its root system and sent it down. It came within a few feet of ending my life and within a few other feet of destroying my home, but in the end I just told my wife not to worry; the tree had fallen, and there wasn't another tree. We were okay.

Last Monday a million trees fell on a million houses all around me and once again it appears that I was lucky; I made the correct decision to leave town, despite two previous false alarms and a growing sense of irritation with them and the shocking suddenness with which Katrina changed from mild problem for Florida into a serious threat to Louisiana. Once again (if I can believe certain accounts posted to message boards) it appears that the devastation fell all around my property without leaving me homeless.

There is a little corner of me that wants to feel quite smug about this. I didn't get airlifted from my roof by the National Guard. I didn't drown in my attic. I am not picking through a rubble field looking for something I can salvage. I am not crapping in the aisles and looking for a sip of fresh water in some overcrowded shelter. I am, in fact, in a large comfortable house in Knoxville, TN sipping Gentleman Jack while I listen for the chance to return to work, something that will almost certainly happen long before I can return home.

But the fact is that I ignored another threat looming over me and I got incredibly lucky again. If there's one thing I learned in my casino adventures it was to never, ever depend on luck. In fact, I always considered myself spectacularly unlucky; despite all the time I spent hanging around in casinos I never won much of anything without a carefully figured advantage. I did on several occasions lose with a consistency that seemed almost deliberate. But in the games where I had an edge, the element of luck neither favored nor plotted against me; year after year, I won what the math said I should.

Now all of the casinos where I learned those lessons are destroyed. I find myself looking for a way to describe what I am feeling, and I realize that Yeats put it much better than I can:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
The tree has always loomed over New Orleans, in the form of the Gulf of Mexico with its warm water and tendency to nurture hurricanes. In 1965 the house I grew up in had three feet of water in it as Hurricane Betsy moved through. But I wasn't there then; my parents were in California, because my father's graduate fellowship required him to do two years in the Navy. As I write this that house probably has four to eight feet of water in it.

There are in fact good reasons for people to live here; New Orleans exists because of a confluence of ground and water transportation routes and significant farming and seafood industries. But that doesn't mean there is a good reason for one point three million people to live here. Before modern sanitation, storm prediction, and indoor climate control existed New Orleans regularly lost thousands of inhabitants at a time to storms and epidemics. New Orleans has always been a city that creates much wealth, but in modern times we have forgotten that that wealth was once acquired at great cost.

What is happening to New Orleans today is not extraordinary. It was inevitable. The storms have always come; they may in the future come more frequently and more powerfully because of global warming, but even without that they would come at a pace that is not zero. Living so close to the coast is like a reverse lottery; in any given cycle it's not all that likely that you will lose, but when your number comes up you are screwed. And it's not just New Orleans; all over the US and all over the world people like living on the coast. Some do so for the good reason that it is their livelihood, but others do because they like being able to play in the ocean. They forget that the ocean is a powerful thing and sometimes it can play with you.

New Orleans isn't even on the coast; our founders weren't quite that stupid. It's pretty far inland, to the point that it takes cruise ships half a day to reach open water when they depart from New Orleans. New Orleans is just close enough to be in danger anyway. To our founders it was a compromise. The closer it was to the coast the more profitable it would be, but also the more often it would be destroyed and need to be rebuilt. Our neighbors in Mississippi are demonstrating how much worse it can be to live near an actual beach.

Yeats wraps up Second Coming with another hauntingly apt couplet:

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
In both science and myth the ocean is the mother of us all; if mountains are the Earth's expression of jutting maleness, the ocean with its frictionless surface and black depths is her expression of female receptiveness. But the Goddess, as quite a few New Agers fail to grok, is not just the comforting image of "Mother Nature." The Goddess is triune; she is the Mother, true, but she is also the fecund and tempting Virgin. And sometimes she is an earthquake, tornado, and hurricane-throwing bitch.

For the patriarchal religion that inspired Yeats, the Goddess herself could very well be that rough beast come to undo all our fine works. And less than a week ago she slouched ashore with a great splash and whooshing noise and gave us humans another lesson in humility -- a lesson we seem to need frequently, because we never seem to learn it.

The Beast has now swatted me twice, and I will not test its patience again. Sometime before next year's hurricane season I will be living elsewhere well inland. Hopefully, since I seem to have a house instead of an insurance check to call my own, by that time the market will exist again and there will be buyers for a house that survived the killer Katrina. I will probably brag on this while coughing and neglecting to mention that if she had not made a last-minute zig to the East, even my house would have had ten feet of water around it and all those people you see being airlifted from rooftops would simply be dead.

I will miss a lot of things about New Orleans, but a lot of those things will probably follow me. Since the boom in Cajun cooking in the 1990's it is much easier to get the spices and ingredients necessary to our signature cooking in other places. And while Mardi Gras is a great party, in all honesty I haven't attended it in years. When you live here, it can become more of a nuisance than a holiday. And don't even get me started on the music. Let's just say I'm not a big fan.

I was born in New Orleans and I have lived there my entire life. But I have said goodbye to many things as the fates have required, and I will do this too with a heavy heart but a firm resolve. If you have a tree hanging over your house, please learn from my experience. Get out from under it before it falls. Because even if it's the kind of tree that can only fall once, you may not get a second chance.

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Poll
Where should localroger move?
o Stay in New Orleans, you coward 8%
o Miami, FL 0%
o New York, NY 5%
o Chicago, IL 5%
o Denver, CO 2%
o San Francisco, CA 7%
o Tijuana, Mexico 5%
o Panama City, FL 0%
o Panama City, Panama 1%
o Rio de Janeiro, Brazil 2%
o Cardel, Mexico 1%
o Kyoto, Japan 2%
o Sydney, Australia 6%
o Amsterdam, the Netherlands 25%
o Baghdad, Iraq 24%

Votes: 137
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o a tree fell on my house
o hurricane Katrina fell on my city
o casino adventures
o Also by localroger


Display: Sort:
Hi, my name is Roger and I am a New Orleanian | 253 comments (231 topical, 22 editorial, 0 hidden)
+1 fp (1.83 / 24) (#1)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 09:09:32 PM EST

let me get this out first before the inevitable retarded negativity from the kurobots:

we the people of the usa, we the people of the world, we feel for you man. we feel for you and every other new orleanian who might be suffering on a hot night right now with nothing to drink or eat and looters running around and corpses floating around

sincerely, honestly, my heart, our hearts, go out to you. you are not alone. god forbid any of us should need help someday like the people of new orleans do now

new orleans is not only a beautiful charming city, it is an intrinsic part of american AND world culture

so it will not go away, it will not be pompeii

it will be rebuilt, this is our will, your will

don't lose heart

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Shut the fuck up homo (1.05 / 17) (#23)
by Glutamine on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:30:54 PM EST

Sick of your crap it stopped being funny like 2-3 years ago pussy

[ Parent ]
yes, i am a homo (1.38 / 13) (#25)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:35:50 PM EST

could you please mount my enormous cock?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
once again (none / 0) (#115)
by kbudha on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 04:39:19 PM EST

lol
Hey how come that faggot stuart is always posting "WORSHIP AT CTS".
Plz tell me you have nothing to do with this.Its always disturbing to see a high class elbow rubbing with a no-class.

[ Parent ]
Speak for yourself (1.30 / 10) (#30)
by godix on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:59:54 PM EST

I feel for all the people of New Orleans who are now scattered around the nation with only a vague idea when they can go home, if that home exists, or if the looters have left anything in the home. It's gotta be hard to flee for your life and leave behind anything you own that won't fit in a suitcase. I've always thought Localroger was a putz but for now he's a putz I feel sorry for and wish the best in the future.

Those who were so fucking stupid they stayed despite an evacuation order and several days of advanced notice I give a hearty 'FUCK YOU'. You assholes fucking deserve ever single moment of sitting around in 90 degree open sewage while slowly dying of thirst and hunger. Because you're so fucking pathetic you couldn't scrape up the $49 bucks to get a greyhound the hell out of there the nation has to come bail your ass out when instead we could have been working on restoring New Orleans for the last week. And lets not even get into the fucking tards who are taking the opportunities to steal big screen tvs (water soaked big screen TVs with no electricity I might point out). Now there even seem to be some mongoloid mother fuckers who are taking pot shots at the people trying to help their worthless asses. Right, I'm supposed to have sympathy for that? Fuck that shit, I'm hoping to see the bodies of every single one of the imbeciles still in New Orleans floating down Main St before this is over.


- An egotist is someone who thinks they're almost as good as I am.
[ Parent ]

you're a pathetic fuck (1.62 / 8) (#69)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:38:21 AM EST

to you and all the other twats who say "they said to evacuate and the morons stayed so they get what they deserve"

IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY

AND YOU DON'T HAVE A CAR

WHAT ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO FUCKWAD???

are ALL of the poor people looting?

are there any poor people who are not looting who need help the most now from the asshats looting and shooting?

does such a possibility enter into the realm of some of you dimwits' wildest imaginations?

you want to know about man's inhumanity to man?

you can look on the streets of new orleans right now to find it

OR YOU CAN FIND IT IN YOUR HEAD

seriously, do you want to know what kind of thoughts lead to the looting and madnes in new orleans and disrespect for other human beings that disgust you?

YOU ARE DMEONSTRATING THE SAME FUCKING THING WITH YOUR WORDS RIGHT NOW YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE

THE PEOPLE OF NEW ORLEANS NEED US NOW, AND ALL SOMEONE LIKE YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT IS CONDEMNING THEM

to anyone who thinks anyone in new orleans right now deserves any of this in anyway: you're fucking pathetic

god save you if you ever need any help in your life, you're so smug and perfect


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Seconded again (1.00 / 4) (#79)
by twickham on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:45:57 AM EST

He is indeed a retard. Tho that may be insulting to retards.

[ Parent ]
Walk (none / 0) (#80)
by ckaminski on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:36:33 AM EST

You were born with two legs.  Throw your kid on your shoulder, pack a backpack with 3-5 days food and HOOF IT to high ground.  If you're a cripple, pay someone to push you.  If you're a poor cripple, I'm not sure what to tell you.

I have no disrespect for those people.  It's just that my sympathy is wearing pretty thin.  Things, possessions can be replaced.  Homes can be replaced.  Lives cannot.  I have no sympathy for those who forget that little bit of info and choose to remain behind in a HOLE IN THE GROUND that most certainly was going to flood.

And the military is most certainly not going to show sympathy to those idiots taking potshots at helicopters and MPs.  And I sure don't blame them.  

God won't save me... I'll be too busy saving my own ass by NOT BEING THERE!

[ Parent ]

so they were supposed to be on foot in the storm? (3.00 / 4) (#92)
by la princesa on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 12:19:53 PM EST

because the people left had no means of getting out of the city.  elderly, infirm, carless.  do you seriously think they were supposed to WALK INTO the fucking hurricane?  because that was the only other option they had, walking down the road.  there was no way they could have gotten out of there.  unless, perhaps, the evacuation plan hadn't relied so exclusively on private transportion (read: whoever owns a car or has a debit/credit card with which to rent one).  then, yeah, maybe if someone had done like other countries and even the usa in other disasters and evacuated the carless and infirm with government transport, whoever stayed behind could be called stupid.  but it wasn't like that.  they didn't have options.  they didn't have money.  all they COULD do was hunker down and ride it out.  

___
<qpt> Disprove people? <qpt> What happens when you disprove them? Do they disappear in a flash of logic?
[ Parent ]
I see. (none / 0) (#99)
by regeya on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 02:01:57 PM EST

And who was supposed to anticipate that a minor problem for Florida would turn into a major problem for Louisiana, and that quickly?

If it's a disgrace how things are happening now, if it's despicable how things are being handled, who was supposed to be mobilized? Who was supposed to be prepared? Where's YOUR ass right now? If it's not in Louisiana, or MORE importantly, Mississippi since it got harder hit, you're PART OF THE PROBLEM. IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HELP, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

you doubt his conviction (none / 0) (#103)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 02:19:59 PM EST

do you know he is not helping?

meanwhile, mr. high and holy righteousness, you who are so prepared to silence those who speak of shame and a desire to do more, who are you?

who are you to pass judgment?

i don't see in your words anyone worthy of our respect, do you?

would you kindly share with us your credentials for doubting the convictions of others?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

wow, you missed something there (none / 0) (#162)
by regeya on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:22:47 PM EST

try re-reading my comment. if English isn't your first language I forgive you your lameass comment.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

ah selfishness ;-) (none / 1) (#101)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 02:13:54 PM EST

selfishness that rears it's head when so many are suffering, and it thinks it's wisdom *snicker*

i'm sure that shortly before the french revolution, a french nobleman's carriage ran over a poor street kid, and as the nobleman tossed a coin out the window and said "shouldn't have been in the street in the first place" his complete arrogance and blitheful ignorance had no idea of what was coming

you're right, god will not save you, but you're also wrong: you canot save your ass by severing your ties with your humanity

you're so doomed, and you have no idea why or how

i wonder what that frnech nobleman was thinking when the peasants knocked down his front door and dragged his ass to the guilotine

do you know what he was thinking?

don't worry, you'll know someday, you selfish jackass ;-)

xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

lol (none / 0) (#114)
by kbudha on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 04:35:32 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Easy enough (none / 0) (#112)
by godix on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 04:02:57 PM EST

IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY

AND YOU DON'T HAVE A CAR

WHAT ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO FUCKWAD???


Walk. Bike. Hitchike. Sell something (that will end up flooded and looted anyway) to scrape up the $50 to $100 greyhound costs. Join up with four or five other poor people and offer to cover gas if someone I knew would drive me out. I know hitchikers that have managed to go from coast to coast with just a few dollars to their name, being poor doesn't force you to stay in one place.

seriously, do you want to know what kind of thoughts lead to the looting and madnes in new orleans and disrespect for other human beings that disgust you?

Actually I already know, I expect people in general to be small minded idiots. For example, I would expect many people can't figure out that there is a difference between saying 'Why are we bothering to save a bunch of fucking morons' and actually going out and shooting at people and stealing all their shit. Some mongloids just can't figure out the difference between words and action but I'm used to that by now, especially on K5.


- An egotist is someone who thinks they're almost as good as I am.
[ Parent ]
THINK! (none / 1) (#121)
by pyro9 on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 05:57:03 PM EST

Walk. Bike. Hitchike. Sell something (that will end up flooded and looted anyway) to scrape up the $50 to $100 greyhound costs.

Who should they sell something to, the people busy getting out of town in their packed full cars or the people who are staying because they don't have money for a bus ticket either? Then there's those who don't have $50-$100 worth of stuff to sell.

Walk? Just how far do you think they will get in a day?

Hitchike? OK, that one might work occasionally, but most people will be in packed full cars and in panic mode as it is.


The future isn't what it used to be
[ Parent ]
I have, have you? (none / 0) (#122)
by godix on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 07:04:07 PM EST

Who should they sell something to

The morons who have the ability to leave but are staying anyway. There's always morons and it's not morally wrong to bilk them just before they end up a bloated corpse floating down main st.
Walk? Just how far do you think they will get in a day?

The typical person walks between 3 and 4 miles per hour. Walk for 8 hours and that 24 to 32 miles per day. And that's just normal walking, I suspect with a hurricane coming they could get 40 to 50 miles a day. Given that there was a couple day warning then just by walking someone sufficiently motivated to save their ass could get 100 miles inland before the hurricane hit.
Hitchike? OK, that one might work occasionally, but most people will be in packed full cars and in panic mode as it is.

Panic I'll buy, but full cars? Most people don't car pool, especially in emergencies. I imagine there was plenty of room in quite a few of the car leaving. Hell, if nothing else hop on a skateboard and hang on to someones bumper.


- An egotist is someone who thinks they're almost as good as I am.
[ Parent ]
man's inhumanity to man (none / 1) (#125)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 07:42:32 PM EST

i'm sure that shortly before the french revolution, a french nobleman's carriage ran over a poor street kid, and as the nobleman tossed a coin out the window and said "shouldn't have been in the street in the first place" his complete arrogance and blitheful ignorance had no idea of what was coming

i wonder what that french nobleman was thinking when the peasants knocked down his front door and dragged his ass to the guilotine

do you know?

you might find out


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you are a goddamned idiot. (2.20 / 5) (#129)
by la princesa on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 08:14:13 PM EST

are you being wilfully ignorant or is it just genetic?  you seriously expected people to walk through swamps and congested traffic and damaged roads (lousiana is not known for the quality of its infrastructure) and just magically OUTWALK A GODDAMNED HURRICANE THAT WAS MOVING IN AT 150MPH?!

you're (probably) white.  you're online.  you're supposed to be one of the 'smart' ones, but you're spouting callous, blind stupidity.  there was nobody to 'sell things' to, the bus stations were not driving out, and, well, you are pretty much entirely wrong in blaming these people for the misfortune of living in a poor state.  most of those people you are being disgusting to had jobs and were paying taxes.  it must make you damned uncomfortable to find out that even a job and steady paychecks don't buy a safety net.  it's an expensive proposition, no matter how you tart it up as simple and easy for anyone.  if it was, they would have done so.  

you goddamned fool.  hang onto someone's bumper?!  you've read snowcrash a couple dozen times too often, obviously.  

you don't even live in the real world, and the more you post, the more that's clear.  sad, pathetic fuck.  i pray karma visits itself on you.  i pray hard for that.  and i think it will.  

___
<qpt> Disprove people? <qpt> What happens when you disprove them? Do they disappear in a flash of logic?
[ Parent ]

amen (none / 1) (#131)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 08:20:08 PM EST

he knows nothing about the real world yet feels it so so necessary to tell us all about how it works


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Some thoughts (none / 0) (#135)
by wobblywizard on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:28:47 PM EST

This was going to be the biggest hurricane in known history. Everyone talked about how bad it would be. Very bad. Badder than anything that ever happened to this city. So bad in fact, that it was predicted it would completely destroy New Orleans.

Now, because you can't afford a bus ticket, or sell something or even walk very fast you don't even try to save your ass? Instead you whine how you can't afford to try and save your life?

Sure, maybe walking would not have helped. Sure, maybe noone would have given you a lift. But there was a hurricane the size of Texas coming to town and you do...nothing!

Sorry, I fail to see why anyone should be particulary sympathetic with people who don't even try to save their lives. Sure, help them survive now; but sympathize? I think not.

--
You never win an argument with anyone who fucks you or signs your paychecks. I just smile, bite my lip and sip my drink. --Philalawyer
[ Parent ]

people have said that about many hurricanes. (none / 1) (#138)
by la princesa on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:44:35 PM EST

it was chicken little syndrome.  those people had survived many supposedly so horrible hurricanes that died out by the time they hit the coast, so they had no reason BASED ON PAST EXPERIENCE to expect anything different.  this storm was a once in a lifetime occurence, literally.  you cannot prepare for a once in a lifetime event, by definition.  CANNOT.  it's literally impossible.  you really know nothing of the weather history of that area, to say such stuff as you're saying.    


___
<qpt> Disprove people? <qpt> What happens when you disprove them? Do they disappear in a flash of logic?
[ Parent ]
Question (none / 0) (#140)
by wobblywizard on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:04:50 PM EST

Why can you not prepare for a once-in-a-lifetime event? What would be the definition of that event? If I can imagine it, I can certainly prepare for it. Besides, it's not as if there hadn't been any other bad to terrible hurricanes before, so it should have been imaginable...

--
You never win an argument with anyone who fucks you or signs your paychecks. I just smile, bite my lip and sip my drink. --Philalawyer
[ Parent ]

are you fucking autistic? (none / 1) (#144)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:19:23 PM EST

can you possibly empathize with other human beings?

because they are poor they are beyond your fucking ability to understand?

or because of what a looting crackhead does you're going to condemn a 71 year old diabetic?

do you FUCKING know what a human conscience is you rich fucking child?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I wish... (none / 0) (#145)
by wobblywizard on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:28:20 PM EST

I was a fucking rich child. But that's beside the point. Did you read my comment at all? I honestly do wonder...

--
You never win an argument with anyone who fucks you or signs your paychecks. I just smile, bite my lip and sip my drink. --Philalawyer
[ Parent ]

Come to think of it... (none / 1) (#146)
by wobblywizard on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:29:16 PM EST

I wish I was fucking a rich child.

--
You never win an argument with anyone who fucks you or signs your paychecks. I just smile, bite my lip and sip my drink. --Philalawyer
[ Parent ]

rich compared to who? (none / 0) (#148)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:34:01 PM EST

the people who live in the tv shows you idolize?

or the poor of new orleans?

stupid ignorant fuck


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

TV shows? (none / 0) (#151)
by wobblywizard on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:37:25 PM EST

Please explain! Some kind of talk-shows or what? I honestly have no fucking clue what you're talking about (there! for once, you're right!), as I haven't watched any TV at all the last four years.

--
You never win an argument with anyone who fucks you or signs your paychecks. I just smile, bite my lip and sip my drink. --Philalawyer
[ Parent ]

Besides (none / 0) (#152)
by wobblywizard on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:39:13 PM EST

I had no idea you were a Monty Pythons fan!

--
You never win an argument with anyone who fucks you or signs your paychecks. I just smile, bite my lip and sip my drink. --Philalawyer
[ Parent ]

by definition, nobody could have prepared. (2.25 / 4) (#147)
by la princesa on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:29:26 PM EST

if it is once in a lifetime (some estimates say it was a once in 500 years thing), and we've only had somewhat accurate weather reporting for a few decades, there's no way anyone could logically have planned for something that literally was unimaginable.  

you, yourself, could not plan for a category 5 hurricane hitting a city of about 1 million people, said city and surrounding state having an incredibly poor infrastructure.  even in the best of all worlds, nobody could have prepared for this well enough to save significantly more people.  it was literally impossible.  that does happen, you know.  there are things a piece of machinery cannot do.  you don't expect a toaster to operate as a microwave, do you?  apparently so.  i mean, it could if it really felt the need, or something, right?  ugh!

but in this world, the dirty negros were abandoned and left to die, and some useless piece of shit online insists that if only they'd put on their seven league boots, they could have survived and walked up on outa there.  you are so stupid it hurts.  

___
<qpt> Disprove people? <qpt> What happens when you disprove them? Do they disappear in a flash of logic?
[ Parent ]

And you (none / 0) (#149)
by wobblywizard on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:35:24 PM EST

1. Obviously cannot/will not read what I wrote, instead attacking ghosts, and
2. are far too emotionally involved to participate in meaningful discussions about this disaster.

Nothing bad, it can happen to the best of us. Read you some time later, I guess.

--
You never win an argument with anyone who fucks you or signs your paychecks. I just smile, bite my lip and sip my drink. --Philalawyer
[ Parent ]

bah, you're still an idiot. i replied to your... (1.00 / 4) (#161)
by la princesa on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:14:30 PM EST

words.  but you are unable to comprehend mine.  

___
<qpt> Disprove people? <qpt> What happens when you disprove them? Do they disappear in a flash of logic?
[ Parent ]
Reply (none / 0) (#163)
by wobblywizard on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:27:17 PM EST

Notice how you call people names and I don't? Notice how that makes you and your argument clearly superior to mine? No? Neither do I.

--
You never win an argument with anyone who fucks you or signs your paychecks. I just smile, bite my lip and sip my drink. --Philalawyer
[ Parent ]

you aren't 'people'. (none / 1) (#184)
by la princesa on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 09:44:42 AM EST

bah, no fucking more text for this trash.

___
<qpt> Disprove people? <qpt> What happens when you disprove them? Do they disappear in a flash of logic?
[ Parent ]
A point (2.50 / 2) (#156)
by localroger on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:57:04 PM EST

I went to sleep last Friday thinking this was a minor Florida problem. I found out from the airport monitors, as I was flying home, that there was a hurricane headed my way. This was Saturday morning. Saturday afternoon, back home, I watched the forecasts grow darker and darker not quite believing what I was seeing.

Two days later my home city was destroyed.

Deal with that timeframe. I had about two and a half hours to grab what I could and throw it in the van before departing on a six hour trip to Jackson, which is usually a 2.5 hour trip. I left a lot of shit I am now kicking myself about. This wasn't just a killer hurricane; it blindsided us. We saw Georges coming from a thousand miles away, and we were ready for it. Katrina snuck up on us in a way we never expected. A lot of people are now dead because of that.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

Counterpoint... (none / 1) (#175)
by SvnLyrBrto on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:24:18 AM EST

If I were to put on my walking shoes, and hump it over a few hills; I could leave my house in the morning and, before noon, be standing with one foot on either side of the San Andreas fault.  You know how much warning I'm going to have when it lets go?  None...  One minute everything's all happy and normal.  The next, the ground's opening up underneath me.

Now, maybe I'm not the brightest cookie either, for living where I do.  But if *I* knew 48 hours in advance that the San Andreas was going to let rip an eight-pointer; you can bet your sweet ass that I would be elsewhere.

cya,
john

Imagine all the people...
[ Parent ]

I can see your point (none / 0) (#182)
by wobblywizard on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 09:38:48 AM EST

And I certainly tend to be an unbeliever, especially when it comes to disaster warnings. And I also see how 48 hours advance warning is maybe not all that much. But the point remains that you had those 48 hours. And you knew NO could at any time attract a mayor hurricane.

So while on the one hand it certainly was only a very short advance warning, obviously you and a few hundred thousand others did take it to heart, based on former experience. Now, the sick and the elderly, the infirm and the drug addicts, they are really screwed. And I do sympathize with everyone who really was physically not able to leave. I think it's a tragedy. I also want to stress that I strongly believe everyone should recieve all the help they need, dumbass or not. Because contrary to what some people here may think, I have a conscience. But please bear with me when I say I don't sympathize with anyone who didn't leave despite having been able to.

--
You never win an argument with anyone who fucks you or signs your paychecks. I just smile, bite my lip and sip my drink. --Philalawyer
[ Parent ]

Shelter (none / 1) (#186)
by pyro9 on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 10:31:54 AM EST

Having at most 48 hours notice, no transportation, and no way to pay for transportation, with a huge storm coming, there is honestly a fair bit of argument that your best prospect for survival is to stay where you are and hope for the best.

Just how smart is it to be out walking with or without a backpack when 150 M.P.H. winds are expected? As dangerous as it is to stay in your home when massive flooding and structural damage is expected, it is arguably more dangerous to be out walking in it.

So those people DID make an effort to save themselves, starting with the realization that being out unprotected when 150 MPH bits of trees and houses are flying around is incompatible with wellbeing.

It seems that like the many who are against a social safety net, you have never considered the great many life threatening situatioins that can be resolved by flashing the plastic and the great many people who have no plastic to flash.


The future isn't what it used to be
[ Parent ]
Yes (none / 0) (#187)
by wobblywizard on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 11:04:46 AM EST

I see what you are getting at. And I acknowledge this is a problem. Still, as someone else pointed out above me, you can walk about 3 miles/hour on foot. If you had immediately left, that would have put you anywhere between 50 and 72 miles away from New Orleans. Now, I realize this would have been torturous. But as we can see, staying behind is no less cruel.

--
You never win an argument with anyone who fucks you or signs your paychecks. I just smile, bite my lip and sip my drink. --Philalawyer
[ Parent ]

Consider (none / 1) (#190)
by pyro9 on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 12:36:26 PM EST

If you had immediately left, that would have put you anywhere between 50 and 72 miles away from New Orleans.

Realize that 50-72 miles won't help you much. Since that's less than the statistical error for a hurricane track over 48 hours there's no point in trying to walk east or west to avoid the brunt of the storm. You're jsut as likely to avoid it by staying where you are and you won't be exhausted and unprotected if luck isn't on your side.

By the end of that walk you would be outside exhausted and unprotected in the above mentioned 150 MPH winds and bits of tree and house (possibly diminished to a mere 130MPH, but that won't help much) and pouring rain.

All in all, there's little to recommend trying to escape on foot vs. staying in place. In the end, it comes down to either get lucky or die by flooding or flying debris. Trying to walk away won't do much to improve those odds, and may actually make matters worse.

The original thread was a hearty 'Fuck You' to everyone who stayed where they were under the premise that they were just too stupid to leave.

My argument is that in some all too common circumstances staying was the smart thing to do (or at least not a stupid thing to do given the alternatives). A hearty 'Fuck You' is certainly not called for.

The 'Fuck You' argument strongly resembles the arguments made in the U.S. against a social safety net. Especially the aspect of being filled with all sorts of wholly impractical suggestions for what the poor can do about their problem without help. Suggestions made by people who cannot even seem to imagine a life where whipping out the plastic isn't an option.


The future isn't what it used to be
[ Parent ]
Ironically (none / 0) (#192)
by wobblywizard on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 12:52:12 PM EST

I myself would have problems like those poor people in New Orleans as I don't have any plastic to whip out. Luckily I live in a somewhat less affected region of the world concerning hurricanes or other natural disasters.

My whole argument is that when hearing about such a hurricane, you have to do something. Now, it can certainly be true that you can't afford a bus ride, can't hitch a ride, can't somehow get a bike and so on. My point is, what would you rather do in such a situation: stay and hope for the best or run like hell? I guess it's my personal inclination to run like hell that makes me say I don't sympathize. To me, staying looks a bit too much like simply giving up.

Before you berate me another time, I will say that I absolutely understand what you are saying. Indeed it may have been safer for some to stay than to run. But I just cannot comprehend the passivity with wich some of those staying have obviously approached the whole thing. I do acknowledge the difficulty of acting though.

--
You never win an argument with anyone who fucks you or signs your paychecks. I just smile, bite my lip and sip my drink. --Philalawyer
[ Parent ]

not necessarily passive (none / 0) (#197)
by pyro9 on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:26:51 PM EST

We don't know how passive or not they were. Perhaps they filled every bottle and plastic bag they could with supplies (perhaps for naught). Perhaps they agonized about the stay or walk decision only to decide that they must take the (psychologically) harder choice and stay put.

I understand the strong inclination to do something. Sometimes there's simply NOTHING to be done. Nature flips a coin. Heads you live, tails you die. That is probably the worst feeling in the world, and has, no doubt, driven many to do fatally useless things throughout history.


The future isn't what it used to be
[ Parent ]
Oh I completely forgot (none / 0) (#188)
by wobblywizard on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 11:08:20 AM EST

I am in no way against social safety nets. In fact, I come from one of those countries which you Americans like to ridicule as being socialist because of our social security nets. Which I think are neccessary. Just thought I made that clear.

--
You never win an argument with anyone who fucks you or signs your paychecks. I just smile, bite my lip and sip my drink. --Philalawyer
[ Parent ]

Out of curiosity (none / 0) (#198)
by godix on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:30:55 PM EST

You're a domimatrix aren't you? I just can't see you quit constantly spewing shit long enough to get laid so you must have figured out how to combine the two.


- An egotist is someone who thinks they're almost as good as I am.
[ Parent ]
Reactions and reactionaries (none / 1) (#200)
by psctsh on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:16:11 PM EST

There's a slight error in your comment here--regarding the speed that the hurricane moves in, you misspelled "10 to 15 MPH" as "150 MPH."

[ Parent ]
Here's the flaw (none / 1) (#116)
by hershmire on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 04:43:12 PM EST

IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY

AND YOU DON'T HAVE A CAR

WHAT ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO FUCKWAD???


Steal/borrow a bike, perhaps? If you are well enough to loot a city of clothes and beer after a hurricane, you were well enough to cycle out route 10 with a backpack full of water before the storm made landfall. Or hell, just thumb a ride. That would have allowed the National Guard to move in and bus out the sick an enfeebled poor when the shit hit the fan. Now their job is multiplied by 1,000 in addition to lack of order and compassion from the victims themselves.

As I read in another post on another site, we're not pissed off that we have to help people who stuck around; we're pissed off that these people would rather steal a rolex whilst surrounded by so much death and suffering.
FIXME: Insert quote about procrastination
[ Parent ]
"these people" (none / 1) (#126)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 07:44:30 PM EST

the 71 year old diabetic and the asshole with the gun are "these people" who didn't leave?

hmmm

why should these be referred to the same way as "these people" in your mind?

hmmm

because they're black?

hmmm


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Eh yey yey (3.00 / 2) (#158)
by hershmire on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:07:26 PM EST

Pulling the race card pretty quick there, buddy. "These people" refers to looters. As you can see, I make a distinction between them and the enfeebled in my first paragraph. The people who stuck around during the storm and then started robbing and shooting are opportunists. The people who stuck around for pride are just stupid. The people who stuck around because they were physically unable to leave are the ones who suffer the direct consequences of "these people." And that goes for any race.

Oh, Circle. I can understand the firebrand persona you adopt, but not everyone who makes a counterpoint is your enemy. At least not until you reply. ;)
FIXME: Insert quote about procrastination
[ Parent ]
good god (3.00 / 2) (#179)
by pyramid termite on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 09:02:20 AM EST

Because you're so fucking pathetic you couldn't scrape up the $49 bucks to get a greyhound

that must be one hella greyhound bus to hold tens of thousands of people


On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
[ Parent ]

Well I was assuming (none / 0) (#195)
by godix on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:48:47 PM EST

that some of the shorter people would be stored in the luggage compartment. Sitting two to a seat would also be needed as well as shoving a few into the toilet. It'd be a little tight but hey, clowns have proven it can be done.


- An egotist is someone who thinks they're almost as good as I am.
[ Parent ]
Seconded (none / 1) (#78)
by twickham on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:44:44 AM EST

From a Londoner. Take care people. Hope anyone with loved ones in the affected area with no news are reunited soon.

[ Parent ]
+1FP without hesistation (1.50 / 8) (#4)
by Resonant on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 09:18:22 PM EST

A little bit more anecdote than I was hoping on the serious story about Katrina, but by far one of the best k5 articles in a long time.

"I answer, 'This is _quantitative_ religious studies.'" - glor
Forget Yeats let's rock (1.38 / 18) (#6)
by nailgun on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 09:25:45 PM EST

Aenema
by Tool

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this

Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call la
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in arizona bay.

Fret for your figure and
Fret for your latte and
Fret for your lawsuit and
Fret for your hairpiece and
Fret for your prozac and
Fret for your pilot and
Fret for your cable and
Fret for your car.
It's a
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call la
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in arizona bay.

Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits.

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will cuz
I sure could use a vacation from this

Silly shit, stupid shit...

One great big festering neon distraction,
I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.

Learn to swim.

Mom's gonna fix it all soon.
Mom's comin' round to put it back the way it ought to be.

Learn to swim.

Fuck l ron hubbard and
Fuck all his clones.
Fuck all those gun-toting
Hip gangster wannabes.

Learn to swim.

Fuck retro anything.
Fuck your tattoos.
Fuck all you junkies and
Fuck your short memory.

Learn to swim.

Fuck smiley glad-hands
With hidden agendas.
Fuck these dysfunctional,
Insecure actresses.

Learn to swim.

Cuz I'm praying for rain
And I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna watch it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.

Time to bring it down again.
Don't just call me pessimist.
Try and read between the lines.
I can't imagine why you wouldn't
Welcome any change, my friend.

I wanna see it all come down.

Thanks & here's the lyric I thought of (1.50 / 4) (#13)
by elaineradford on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 10:24:04 PM EST

What has happened down here is the wind have changed
Clouds roll in from the north and it started to rain
Rained real hard and rained for a real long time
Six feet of water in the streets of Evangeline

The river rose all day
The river rose all night
Some people got lost in the flood
Some people got away alright
The river have busted through clear down to Plaquemines
Six feet of water in the streets of Evangeline

CHORUS
Louisiana, Louisiana
They're tryin' to wash us away
They're tryin' to wash us away
Louisiana, Louisiana
They're tryin' to wash us away
They're tryin' to wash us away

President Coolidge came down in a railroad train
With a little fat man with a note-pad in his hand
The President say, "Little fat man isn't it a shame what the river has done
To this poor crackers land."

P.S. "Let's roll, Katrina" was spray-painted on my neighbor's plywood before we evacuated. Brave words. We'll be back!

And forgive me, Randy Newman, if I violated your copyright. You're part of us now.



[ Parent ]

Tool (none / 0) (#66)
by Harvey Anderson on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:11:21 AM EST

has some good music but Maynard needs to stop singing.

[ Parent ]
Blah blah blah. (1.12 / 25) (#10)
by The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 09:55:41 PM EST

I wasn't smart enough to move after the first couple close calls, and now that the city has basically been wiped off the face of the planet I think I'll move on.

How insightful! How earth-shatteringly brilliant!

___
I'm a pompous windbag, I take myself far too seriously, and I single-handedly messed up K5 by causing the fiction section to be created. --localroger

It is worth noting... (3.00 / 15) (#12)
by jd on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 10:18:12 PM EST

...that most good farmland IS good farmland because it gets catastrophically flooded. Deltas are extremely good at producing good farmland, as was (not is, was) the Nile. Those rivers that have subsequently been dammed up to the point where flooding no longer occurs have become choked from terrible erosion of the land - land that has become almost impossible to grow anything on.

These terrible floods were, you are correct, absolutely inevitable. Anybody with even the most basic understanding of soils and agriculture could figure that one out. It wouldn't have taken supercomputers and weather satelites to determine what was inevitable, though those certainly helped determine when.

As for "false alarms" - there had been a day and a half warning that it was going to be a category 5 and that it was going to slam right into New Orleans. With something on that scale, you only need to stay and be wrong once. Leaving, especially after a mandatory evacuation call, was always going to be a cheaper, safer option, even if nothing happened.

There is one aspect to all this that I'm not sure anyone is quite thinking about yet - the ground there would naturally be swampy but has been drained and held fairly dry for a very long time. This may have created weak-spots, as soil will have a different volume when wet or dry.

It is possible that the coastal defenses - especially when tonne weights are being dropped on them - may suffer significant damage due to the ground simply collapsing. (This kind of damage happens to houses all the time, on a smaller scale.)

Simply filling in the holes isn't going to be enough - this is going to require doing seismic tests to ensure that the walls - and therefore the city - are capable of surviving. So far, not even a whisper of such a plan has been put forward. THAT bothers me.

listen to anderson cooper lose his temper on cnn (2.00 / 5) (#14)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 10:39:31 PM EST

and tear this politician a new asshole, on live tv

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

That politician (2.00 / 3) (#19)
by localroger on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:21:54 PM EST

That was Mary Landrieu and I am very proud to say I voted for her. Listen to what she says and imagine the shit she has to go through in this time. Also remember that she has won two elections by margins so close they required hand counts. In that interview she is not covering her butt, she is trying to reach out to AC and assure him that something is actually being done. Our government may be failing us but she is not one of the reasons.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
of course, its (3.00 / 4) (#72)
by minerboy on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:49:48 AM EST

Only the politicians you voted against that are failing us. Bah, they all failed, as did a considerable number of the NOLA population. Sure, turn your back on the drug problem, its not a violent crime, right. Until the Junkies can't get a fix. The mayor recently pointed out that there are now gangs of crazed jonesing junkies on the street - that's why they do seemingly foolish things like rob nurses, shoot at rescuers, try to break in to hospitals.



[ Parent ]
She's just playing the game (3.00 / 9) (#83)
by rusty on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:43:53 AM EST

She's demonstrating why democrats lose so consistently. Instead of saying "Why the fuck is our government letting a whole city full of people suffer and die?" she's thanking and praising the heroes in Congress for going to work at night to  vote for imaginary money. I can't recall hearing a more mealy-mouthed and self-congratulatory interview in the face of such a hideous disaster ever. I think Cooper actually cut it off because he couldn't stand to listen to it either.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
hold a moment (2.50 / 2) (#97)
by zenofchai on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 01:10:36 PM EST

What exactly is expected for a senator to do in this situation? They do not command the National Guard. They do not command anything. They vote in a big room of other voters. They get on TV.

The people who make the orders to the national guard and other infrastructures are the ones we should be pissed at -- for the things they were supposed to do and did not.

Let us enumerate:

  1. where were the thousands of national guardsmen in the hours leading up to the hurricane. People without transportation cannot evacuate.
  2. where were the thousands of national guardsmen in the hours and days after the hurricane. People who even managed to survive the hurricane died in horrible, anguished ways -- dehydration, drowning after exhaustion.
  3. where was the evacuation plan in the hours after the hurricane passed. ok: we have tens of thousands of people crammed up in unholy fashions in the superdome and convention center. get them out immediately. bring in one thousand commandeered greyhound busses and get them out. something.

--
The K5 Interactive Political Compass SVG Graph
[ Parent ]
They get on TV (3.00 / 4) (#117)
by rusty on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 04:47:10 PM EST

You said it exactly: Senators get on TV. She was on TV. She had a pulpit, she had the attention of the country if not the world. And what'd she do? Thanked the opposition for their tireless wanking in the face of this disaster. She basically just kissed ass.

What I expect her to do is ask that list of excellent questions you just asked. And keep on asking them until we get answers. I think that's what Anderson Cooper was hoping for too, but he was instead given a deep lesson in the true depth of corruption in the US government.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Step 1: Remove shoe. (none / 0) (#213)
by Empedocles on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 05:02:16 AM EST

Step 2: Inform those who command the National Guard that they are jerks, a stooges and a lackeys of imperialism.

Step 3: Bang shoe on podium to get your point across.

---
And I think it's gonna be a long long time
'Till touch down brings me 'round again to find
I'm not the man they think I am at home

[ Parent ]

Yeah I've noticed that... (none / 1) (#22)
by parrillada on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:30:47 PM EST

...Anderson Cooper has been really pissed off. I'm surprised not too many other reporters have followed his lead. It seems the federal government has really dropped the ball... or all the nat'l guardsmen are in Iraq...

[ Parent ]
The reporters are all going ballistic (none / 0) (#123)
by drivers on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 07:16:51 PM EST

Off the top of my head, I've also seen Paula Zahn (CNN), Nancy what's-her-name (CNN-HN), Scarborough (MSNBC), Bill Oreilly (FOX) go ballistic at officials they were talking to.

[ Parent ]
SInce my last comment... (none / 0) (#134)
by parrillada on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:13:04 PM EST

...other reporters have indeed chimed in.

[ Parent ]
Shut the fuck up homo (1.00 / 62) (#21)
by Glutamine on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:29:44 PM EST

No one gives a shit and frankly if it'd guarantee no  more of your crap gets posted on this sight myself and most others would just prefer you fuck off and die

Definitely Kyoto. (1.27 / 11) (#26)
by BJH on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:43:10 PM EST

Far enough away that I won't run into you accidentally, but close enough that I can go down and smack you upside the head when you act like an asshole.
--
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

-1 because your house is still standing. (1.04 / 21) (#27)
by la princesa on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:49:32 PM EST

and people i care for quite a bit more cannot say the same.  

___
<qpt> Disprove people? <qpt> What happens when you disprove them? Do they disappear in a flash of logic?
I have been waiting (1.33 / 3) (#29)
by localroger on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:59:24 PM EST

for someone to speak for my city. Maybe those with better voices are drowned or busy. I could have posted this two days ago but then it really would have been inappropriate. How long do I have to wait before my silence becomes a bad thing because my city has no voice?

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
NOLA is majority black, you know. (1.68 / 16) (#33)
by la princesa on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 12:18:30 AM EST

how can you, a white man, presume to speak for such a city, especially when you were able to choose to not be in it when the hurricane landed?  

'your' city has plenty of white people speaking all kinds of things about it.  those who were left behind can only speak through the distorted lenses on all those news cameras.  but obviously what the people still there have to say and how they're being portrayed doesn't count a bit unless it's online, or something, apparently.  your city had no voice until you spoke?  

your city is self-absorption, population one.  

___
<qpt> Disprove people? <qpt> What happens when you disprove them? Do they disappear in a flash of logic?
[ Parent ]

you are utterly full of shit. -nt (2.40 / 5) (#34)
by Kasreyn on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 12:56:13 AM EST

nt
"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
[ Parent ]
better cities than yours have died (3.00 / 3) (#43)
by Blarney on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 04:13:34 AM EST

Due to idiots who imagine that one particular ethnic group owns it, and everybody else can be intimidated and pushed out.

The US has failed New Orleans. But so have many of the people who live there.

[ Parent ]

SIGGED! (none / 0) (#202)
by nlscb on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:29:21 PM EST


Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange
[ Parent ]

Shite. (none / 0) (#232)
by debillitatus on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 10:41:04 PM EST

how can you, a white man, presume to speak for such a city, especially when you were able to choose to not be in it when the hurricane landed?

So, does this mean I can ignore anything a black guy says about Manhattan?

Now, to be fair, I'd hate to think that anyone let localroger be a spokesman for my hometown. But not because he's white.

We all have family members in some serious shit right now, white, black, vietnamese, whatever. Race is the last thing people should be discussing right now.

Damn you and your daily doubles, you brigand!
[ Parent ]

Racist. [nt] (none / 0) (#233)
by esrever on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 11:08:03 PM EST



Audit NTFS permissions on Windows
[ Parent ]
The article should not have been about you. (3.00 / 2) (#55)
by Russell Dovey on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 07:30:36 AM EST

You are a good writer, and there is bad shit going down in New Orleans right now that could be very well conveyed by a good writer with local knowledge.

Maybe you should think about doing another article in a week or so once the stories have come in, bringing it all together.

Not about going to see the state your house is in, although I'd like to see that article too.

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

Maybe so (none / 1) (#96)
by localroger on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 12:41:56 PM EST

What I wrote here is all I really know. I can't write about what's going on back home because I'm not there. I see the same news you do. The few things I could comment on aren't really developed yet. For example, electricity is almost completely out over an area of at least 10,000 square miles in central Mississippi and Alabama. In this huge area sewage and running water are spotty, and gasoline is almost completely unavailable. If it weren't for New Orleans and the Mississippi Gulf Coast this crisis would itself be national news, but as things are it's barely a footnote.

Maybe I will write something else once I know more. Hopefully, other people who are closer to the action will write about those things first, though.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

-1 (1.74 / 31) (#28)
by Estanislao Martínez on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:54:23 PM EST

I guess I didn't know that Hurricane Katrina was all about you.

--em

you're so right (2.60 / 5) (#31)
by localroger on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 12:11:09 AM EST

I failed to understand that it isn't a real catastrophe unless it's all about you.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
no.. (1.50 / 2) (#39)
by QuantumG on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 02:32:54 AM EST

it's just hard to care about people who live in a bog and practice french customs.

Gun fire is the sound of freedom.
[ Parent ]
hahahaha agaygaygay (1.09 / 11) (#65)
by Harvey Anderson on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:09:14 AM EST

em: "It's all about you!"
lr: "NO YUO!"
em: "NO YUO!"
lr: "NO YUO x INFINITY!"
em: "NO YUO x INFINITY + 1!"
lr: "NO READ MY STORIES PLSPLS!"
em: "NO FOCUS ME NOW FOCUS ME!"

[ Parent ]
Whoa, it's like the Adequoids act in union. (3.00 / 3) (#75)
by it certainly is on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:00:14 AM EST

One damn localroger article and they all crawl out of the woodwork in synchronicity.

kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
[ Parent ]

Why live there anyway? (1.50 / 6) (#36)
by zephc on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 02:08:51 AM EST

Why live there anyway? I mean, its shitty hot sticky weather when its NOT flooded. Why do people settle into these areas with such god-awful weather? Give me beautiful, sunny California beaches any day.

not to mention the french influence [nt] (1.25 / 4) (#38)
by QuantumG on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 02:32:02 AM EST



Gun fire is the sound of freedom.
[ Parent ]
i don't live in the US but once again, (1.00 / 11) (#40)
by taste on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 02:42:54 AM EST

this made me care. +1fp

scurries off to google on Katrina

Abstaining, and here's why: (2.50 / 8) (#42)
by Pirengle on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 03:26:45 AM EST

So much mudslinging for a nice nugget of prose. Yeah, it's all reaction and personal experience, but well-written and thoughtfully-composed reaction and personal experience. Even the trolls--most of them anyway--are bashing the author and the method and the intent and not the message.

Do people really want an account of some half-starved Superdome survivor or somebody airlifted off a roof with their family? I think I'd vote down an article about Katrina aftermath hysterics.

It's a wavery message about hope, both personal and post-Katrina. Could've done without the whisky sipping in Tennessee though.


♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫
A sure-fire way to make friends and influence people: transform the letters "l" and "i" into "-1"s whenever posting. Instant wit!
Congrats (2.50 / 6) (#52)
by destroy all monsters on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 06:33:08 AM EST

So far you've made the most reasoned comment in this diary.

If you mean the message is hope, for one privileged highly educated white guy then you have a point. However, localroger most clearly *was* a NOLAn and isn't one now. His ability to state that he speaks for his city is epitome of self-absorbtion.

Would I have rather heard first hand accounts of what it was like in the dome or in the lake that is now New Orleans? You betcha. At least then the story would have something to do with what is going on now and not about some guy's tree and how he's privileged enough to be able to not return.

This is, most emphatically, not the story of the city, or the average resident. As such, it can only be a diary. A diary that is well written and by one of darlings of K5 but a diary nonetheless.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

IAWTP [nt] (none / 1) (#53)
by warrax on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 06:47:49 AM EST



-- "Guns don't kill people. I kill people."
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately, (3.00 / 3) (#64)
by Harvey Anderson on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:05:24 AM EST

virtually all artists of any kind are self-absorbed and always think they are interesting.  It's kind of a necessary delusion I think.

Writers are the worst, though.

[ Parent ]

What does his race has to do with anything? (none / 1) (#183)
by artis on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 09:44:15 AM EST

Aren't there highly educated people that are not pink? Where does he state that he speaks for his city? Would you rather have someone undeducated speak for your city?
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
Race has everything to do (1.50 / 2) (#199)
by destroy all monsters on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:12:17 PM EST

with a city that is majority black. http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2005/9/1/21412/92313/29#29
Read that. Next time read the entire article before inserting foot into mouth.

No one, regardless of who they are, speaks for a city. Your comment is ridiculous.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

[ns] (none / 0) (#205)
by artis on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 06:09:40 PM EST

Race has everything to do with a city that is majority black.
Does this mean that there is something fundamentaly different about blacks or that "race has everything to do with a city where there is [some portion] of [some race]?" Either way I still would like you to clarify on how educated pinks differ from other educated people.
http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2005/9/1/21412/92313/29#29 Read that. Next time read the entire article before inserting foot into mouth.
Is that part of the article?
No one, regardless of who they are, speaks for a city. Your comment is ridiculous.
So what is this "story of the city" you are talikng about in a non-ridiculous way?
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
Nice Troll (none / 1) (#209)
by destroy all monsters on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 12:16:14 AM EST

Weak Sauce.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]
No replie then? (none / 0) (#214)
by artis on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 05:53:53 AM EST

I wasn't trolling, don't know about you.
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
If you weren't trolling (none / 1) (#216)
by destroy all monsters on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 06:59:27 AM EST

then your reading comprehension sucks. Everything you asked has been answered further up and by the link I gave you.

As an attorney would say: asked and answered.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

Do I have to restate the unanswered questions? (none / 0) (#217)
by artis on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 07:40:24 AM EST

Why do you feel compelled to tie education and skin colour together? Do you think that educated blacks are (especially in the case of NO) in a situation more comparable to educated whites or uneducated blacks?

Why is talking about someone speaking for his city more ridiculous than talking about "the story of the city?"

What is so special about a city with a majority of blacks?

"Is that part of the article?"


--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
Learn to fucking read english (none / 1) (#218)
by destroy all monsters on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 08:12:04 AM EST

and the entirety of the thread. Yes, everything including the discussion - particularly what the author himself writes - is part of the article.

I suggest you start learning basic english semantics before calling into question what someone means (particularly when it has been stated repeatedly).

Until then STFU you foreign idiot.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

Calling me (none / 0) (#220)
by artis on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 09:54:02 AM EST

The answers are not to be found in the link you gave. If you do not want to answer questions posed to you as a response to thing you said then say so (or just don't answer I won't mind), don't handwave with a link, if I would want to get involved in that thread I would have posted there.

No, comments are not part of the article even if they are posted by its author. This isn't Usenet--distinction between the article and the disscusion is part of K5's design.


--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
Because you are an idiot (2.00 / 3) (#230)
by destroy all monsters on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 05:56:38 PM EST

1. You made a semantic argument in a language whose semantics you barely comprehend.

2. You decided that something didn't mean what you wanted it to mean because the author supposedly didn't make the comment (you know, the one he actually made) in the body of the initial article instead of the comments.

3. That no one with a brain (at least who isn't running for office) states that they speak for their city, country etc. when clearly that is impossible. Self-aggrandizement in the face of tragedy is deplorable. Portraying one's unusual (and largely irrelevant) experience as the story of one's city in that environment is just icing on that shit-flavored cake.

4. I have worked with the retarded. Even they grasp that people from different races and socio-economic backgrounds have different experiences, regardless of whether there is an event like this or not.

5. I find your clumsy backdoor attempts to paint me as a racist obnoxious.

Everything else I have repeatedly addressed elsethread. If you want to call someone one what they say, by all means do so - but don't be lazy about it and then claim that things don't mean what they do simply becuause you don't want them to.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

If you want to change languages... (none / 0) (#243)
by artis on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 07:50:23 PM EST

You are welcome to use Latvian (my 1st language) or German (my 3rd language), but I doubt such a change would be productive as it seems you are just here to make personal attacks, be it against the author or someone who asks you to substantiate some of your comments.
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
Which I did (none / 0) (#244)
by destroy all monsters on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 06:36:41 AM EST

not just in the grandparent but multiple times.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]
You know, (none / 0) (#231)
by debillitatus on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 10:29:30 PM EST

I do notice a trend on k5. A big chunk of y'all use "Nice Troll" as shorthand for "I just got schooled in this argument, I have no evidence or coherent argument to continue, so I'll just puss out with a troll accusation"

In short, you are the 98-pound weakling bitching to his mom about getting sand kicked in his face. Metaphorically speaking, that is.

Damn you and your daily doubles, you brigand!
[ Parent ]

Nigger, please /nt (none / 1) (#235)
by destroy all monsters on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 03:27:29 AM EST



"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]
I'm sure you meant "Nigga, please" /nt (none / 0) (#236)
by debillitatus on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 09:28:20 AM EST


Damn you and your daily doubles, you brigand!
[ Parent ]

Do you think its really wise to rebuild the levies (2.77 / 9) (#44)
by StephenThompson on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 04:17:05 AM EST

I was in New Orleans last fall, and it was a great experience. But I remember thinking that the people here were totally irresponsible for living under sea level with such weak levies. Tour guides explained to us that New Orleans (and the whole bayou as well) was ultimately doomed to sink into the sea. From what I understand, this disaster was inevitable. Won't it just happen again if they patch up the levies? Wouldn't it be smarter to not rebuild the levies and move the city onto land that is above sea level?

indeed, it's still sinking (none / 1) (#167)
by Delirium on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:53:02 PM EST

If you thought an average of 10 ft below sea level was bad, just wait until it's an average of 30 ft below sea level.

[ Parent ]
There's little choice (3.00 / 2) (#239)
by scheme on Tue Sep 06, 2005 at 02:29:54 AM EST

I was in New Orleans last fall, and it was a great experience. But I remember thinking that the people here were totally irresponsible for living under sea level with such weak levies. Tour guides explained to us that New Orleans (and the whole bayou as well) was ultimately doomed to sink into the sea. From what I understand, this disaster was inevitable. Won't it just happen again if they patch up the levies? Wouldn't it be smarter to not rebuild the levies and move the city onto land that is above sea level?

New Orleans is where it is because you need something in that vicinity to be able to be a good port city. New Orleans is/was in the top 5 ports in the US in terms of volume. Most of the goods going to and from the midwest got shipped down/up the Mississippi and loaded/unloaded in New Orleans.

The city can be relocated but the port facilities can't be too far upstream without causing navigation problems for ocean going vessels. It's already about 70 miles from the sea and there are bridges upstream that limit the size of ships that can get through.


"Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. THAT'S relativity." --Albert Einstein


[ Parent ]
Bravo! (2.12 / 8) (#45)
by maxsilver on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 04:35:48 AM EST

You know the only thing missing to make the Katrina catastrophe complete? Alan Jackson should compose a country song about it.

It will certainly happen (2.66 / 3) (#93)
by localroger on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 12:20:27 PM EST

Most likely within six months, a year at most.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
how frequent are those storms anyway? (3.00 / 4) (#47)
by dimaq on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 05:47:50 AM EST

I was wondering, how frequent are those bad storms... not like N times a year in whole state, but more like what is the probability that a given house will be affected at least once in a given year?

basically I'm wonding does the chance of storms justify, say, reinforced buildings that would withstand most of it (probably not the eye passing right over, but anyway). Or moving whole buildings out before the storm and bringing them back afterwards or some such...

new orleans (3.00 / 2) (#85)
by aphrael on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:47:10 AM EST

gets hit by the edges of a minor hurricane maybe once or twice a year. something on this scale happens maybe two or three times a century.

[ Parent ]
The odds vary greatly (none / 1) (#119)
by godix on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 05:23:54 PM EST

however it is worth it. The question isn't will a hurricane hit New Orleans in 2005 or any other specific year but rather will a storm hit New Orleans again in the future. The odds during any specific year are difficult to figure and pretty low. The odds of it happening in the near future, say the next 50 to 100 years, are a near certainty. When the next storm hits it probably won't be nearly as powerful as Katrina but it might be.

The rebuilding shouldn't focus on hurricane resistant buildings though, although the idea shouldn't be ignored either. Most of the problems we're seeing are because the city got flooded which greatly hampered rescue operations, slowed up moving in emergency supplies, caused a huge potential for disease, and destroyed much of the water system. The levys (or building above water level) is where attention should be focused on when rebuilding.


- An egotist is someone who thinks they're almost as good as I am.
[ Parent ]

FUCK OFF (1.03 / 26) (#48)
by I DESPISE TROLLS on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 05:50:23 AM EST

AND SHUT UP

NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR PATHETIC LIFE

PLEASE GO DROWN YOURSELF IN THE FUCKING SUPERDOME

You are boring (none / 0) (#56)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 07:53:20 AM EST

but your consistency is amazing.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

NEW ORLEANS (1.04 / 24) (#49)
by I DESPISE TROLLS on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 06:04:59 AM EST

                    888b    888 8888888888 888       888
                    8888b   888 888        888   o   888
                    88888b  888 888        888  d8b  888
                    888Y88b 888 8888888    888 d888b 888
                    888 Y88b888 888        888d88888b888
                    888  Y88888 888        88888P Y88888
                    888   Y8888 888        8888P   Y8888
                    888    Y888 8888888888 888P     Y888

 .d88888b.  8888888b.  888      8888888888        d8888 888b    888  .d8888b.
d88P" "Y88b 888   Y88b 888      888              d88888 8888b   888 d88P  Y88b
888     888 888    888 888      888             d88P888 88888b  888 Y88b.
888     888 888   d88P 888      8888888        d88P 888 888Y88b 888  "Y888b.
888     888 8888888P"  888      888           d88P  888 888 Y88b888     "Y88b.
888     888 888 T88b   888      888          d88P   888 888  Y88888       "888
Y88b. .d88P 888  T88b  888      888         d8888888888 888   Y8888 Y88b  d88P
 "Y88888P"  888   T88b 88888888 8888888888 d88P     888 888    Y888  "Y8888P"


So.. you got out of there? (1.23 / 38) (#50)
by Magnetic North on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 06:06:19 AM EST

I'm guessing you're not a nigger..

--
<33333
Yeah.. (1.41 / 17) (#51)
by Magnetic North on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 06:31:53 AM EST

This "tragedy" has once again shown to the world what a racist shithole the US is.

No? The US is the greatest nation on the face of this earth? Then zero me you fucking untermensch US dogs.

What you reap is what you sow.

--
<33333
[ Parent ]
You should be ashamed (2.05 / 18) (#54)
by actmodern on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 07:24:18 AM EST

People are suffering and you're posting a story that begins with how inconvenienced you've been?

Dude, really, learn to be a little humble.


--
LilDebbie challenge: produce the water sports scene from bable or stfu. It does not exist.

People are always suffering somewhere [nt] (1.00 / 2) (#181)
by artis on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 09:34:53 AM EST


--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
GET SOME PRIORITIES, PEOPLE! (3.00 / 1) (#207)
by Pooping in Urinals on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 08:17:17 PM EST


"...[T]he first midget amputee getting bukkaked by 20 japanese buddhist monks and I bet your gonna say 'well thats what the miscellaneous column is for.'" -- army of phred
[ Parent ]

Isn't there something eerie about this story? (2.87 / 31) (#57)
by Bloodless Creep on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 07:59:22 AM EST

Though I can see the point that some of the trolls are clumsily banging away at, it's not the author's narrow, self-linking focus on himself that's bothering me; the story of a vast tragedy told from a single person's perspective isn't necessarily objectionable (and in aggregate can be tremendously powerful, as in the personal histories of individual Holocaust survivors).

Nor do I mind the fact that Roger flogs the second-most overquoted stanza in all of poetry for one more dusty trot around the show ring; we all reach for the familiar when we're under stress, and it could be worse— at least our traveler from an antique land brings us news of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, laid waste by wind and covered now with water, instead of the lone and level sands.

(If you didn't get the reference, don't bother looking it up. It's not germane, and trust me, you'll stumble across it on your own soon.)

The overburdened metaphors piled on top of the poetry... OK, those did bother me ("The Beast?" "The Goddess?" "fecund and tempting Virgin?" Come on, can we at least get the real Hindu Trinity instead of this Joseph Campbell's Goddesses For Idiots pap?)

Then again, maybe the metaphors do have a purpose, because they helped to highlight the genuinely creepy aspect of Roger's report for me.

It doesn't have any people in it.

Oh, sure, it has an abstract, collective "people of New Orleans," but they're completely faceless. The two specific individuals mentioned in passing, Roger's wife and father, are brought up merely as explanations for Roger's location at a couple points in time.

Does he have any friends in "his" city? Is he on speaking terms with his neighbors? Hell, does he even order coffee from a familiar face on a regular basis? Is he worried in a personally connected way about anyone other than his wife and himself?

Of course he is, I'm sure. But why isn't that part of his story?

The whole piece is so detached from the vivid agony that comes through even in a Fox News broadcast that I'm tempted to think there's a bit of a psychological coping mechanism at work; Lord knows detachment can make tragedy more bearable, particularly in the short run. But this interpretation strikes me as a bit uncharitable.

I'd prefer instead to believe that Roger wrote most of his article a few days ago, before the shocking human suffering gradually and hideously bloomed on our television sets. He was high and dry, safe and sound, just composing another blog rant with the usual (and usually appropriate) online/offline walls and filters in place.

Well, I hope so, at any rate.

Sure, he still made a mistake in posting the story days late, a mistake in neglecting to plan adequate links to relief efforts, a mistake in failing to show convincing empathy for the poor souls still trapped in the city, and a mistake in being apparently oblivious to the rage building in the hearts of many members of his intended audience.

But hey— at least he's not alone in those mistakes, right?

 

Major sounds very angry. (1.00 / 3) (#59)
by slpyhd on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 08:21:09 AM EST

http://www.libera.be/files/nagin.mp3

[ Parent ]
"Germane"? (1.40 / 5) (#63)
by ksandstr on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:04:30 AM EST

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it does.

[ Parent ]
'Talk like a dick school' (none / 1) (#67)
by MattGWU on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:30:01 AM EST

http://www.achewood.com/index.php?date=09012005

[ Parent ]
Pray tell... (2.33 / 3) (#70)
by Bloodless Creep on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:40:29 AM EST

...how does one "keep" using a word that one has used precisely once?

In my parenthetical remark, my meaning was that the work referenced should not be pursued, as it was not in and of itself relevant to the discussion at hand, but rather alluded to only as an exemplar of egregiously facile citation.

You'd have to be an utterly literal little cretin to miss that after it was pointed out to you, don't you think?

I do apologise if my usage was perhaps too casually nuanced; if you are not acquainted with the niceties of deliberately crafted context, you may find yourself betrayed by the wee gamboling indulgences I set loose in the midst of my more serious arguments.

[ Parent ]

Movie reference (none / 0) (#81)
by rpresser on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:40:56 AM EST

The "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means" line is from The Princess Bride. It was a bit too cute of him to phrase his objection to the word that way, but there was a reason.
------------
"In terms of both hyperbolic overreaching and eventual wrongness, the Permanent [Republican] Majority has set a new, and truly difficult to beat, standard." --rusty
[ Parent ]
Oh, snap! (none / 1) (#113)
by hershmire on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 04:22:42 PM EST

You done talked his sorry grammar-correctin' ass down, son. Dass da last time any sucka gonna be germanin' on yo' terf. Word.
FIXME: Insert quote about procrastination
[ Parent ]
As long as we're on the subject... (none / 0) (#153)
by exppii on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:40:29 PM EST

I don't think "persued" means what you think it means, either.

[ Parent ]
Yes, I misspelled it [nt] (none / 0) (#154)
by exppii on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:42:11 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Leaving out the human tragedy can be productive (2.50 / 2) (#68)
by duffbeer703 on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:36:23 AM EST

Events happen every day that ruin lives. Highways are built on the sites of former homes, wars fought, and storms and other disasters rage.

If you focus on the human drama, you eventually reach a point where you cannot see the big picture. Adding links to the Red Cross or a few lines of sympathy or pity for the people caught in the crosswinds of the Katrina disaster doesn't add anything to the article.

The article asks a question that everyone who lives on the Southern coasts of the US should be asking themselves... why am I here in this place?

Take a minute and forget about the grandmothers dead in wheelchairs in the convention center or the thousands of people drowned in their attrics. They are symptoms or the victims of a larger problem -- the fact that our society has shifted millions of people into areas that cannot safely house them.

How many ripped off roofs, toppled trees or dead people does it take for everyone to realize that they don't belong on the Gulf Coast?

[ Parent ]

Shut up, Ed. (1.16 / 6) (#74)
by it certainly is on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:56:22 AM EST

You've still got that hatred burning inside you. Why are you so hung up about yokelroger that you only come out of your shell to snipe at him?

kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
[ Parent ]

Hey, dude! (2.00 / 3) (#76)
by Bloodless Creep on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:18:17 AM EST

Who's sniping, eh?

I think my comment's a lot more balanced than your "geography for stupids" crack. I mean, come on, they had the aqueduct figured out 2000 years ago, nae?

You assume I'm slagging Roger. I don't think I am. I'm a little more grown-up now, just like you.

In the last paragraph of my post, I'm either demonizing localroger, or I'm humanizing President Bush (or neither, or both. Maybe I'm just constructing a syllogism, and leaving it to the reader to ponder, heaven forfend!)

I do imagine a lot of readers will pick the explanation that induces the least mental anguish. There's a fancy psychology term to describe that phenomenon, but I tend to feel sort of cheap when I use it, so I won't.

[ Parent ]

Isn't it obvious? (1.50 / 2) (#94)
by it certainly is on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 12:28:00 PM EST

You've brought Bloodless Creep (whose very username mocks Roger) out of retirement specifically to argue against a rather tepid article. Why haven't any of the other K5 articles in the interventing months drawn your ire?

As for aqueducts, they're the exception rather than the rule. 9 times out of 10, Mohammed comes to the mountain.

There's a fancy psychology term to describe that phenomenon, but I tend to feel sort of cheap when I use it, so I won't.

You can say "cognitive dissonance" if you want. You can even say "cognize" when you mean "know", if you like! Don't they teach that in Talk Like A Dick school?

kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
[ Parent ]

Excellent comment! (2.00 / 1) (#88)
by a paranoic guy from a shitty country on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:52:26 AM EST

It's a shame that comments like this one cannot be proposed for FP - a comment far better than the article itself, and I voted the article up (but for section only).

--
Welcome to k5, sorry you're here - some nerd
[ Parent ]
Ozymandias (none / 1) (#212)
by SeventhCycle on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 04:57:39 AM EST

at least our traveler from an antique land brings us news of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, laid waste by wind and covered now with water, instead of the lone and level sands.

Quoting Ozymandias does not make you an intellectual.

Some of us read that poem in fourth grade. It's rather snobbish that you wouldn't source what you were talking about.

[ Parent ]

Way to... (2.50 / 2) (#219)
by Bloodless Creep on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 08:21:07 AM EST

...miss the point completely, Mr. Cycle.

And tell me, do you meticulously source your material every time you say "play it, Sam" or "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" or "and your little dog, too?"

Sometimes, you see, when you provide scrupulous citation for material familiar to anyone who has successfully completed the eighth grade or the second form or the local equivalent, material such as, say, The Princess Bride or The Second Coming or Ozymandias, the accreditation doesn't make you seem any less "snobbish"— in fact, it often makes you look like a foolish and condescending little tool.

Personally, I'll admit I find it amusing to adopt the part of a condescending little tool from time to time, but I do so consciously, and with worthier purposes than showing my audience that I have read something the rest of them have also read, and that I read it at what I presume to have been an earlier age (on average) to boot.

[ Parent ]

Granted (none / 0) (#223)
by SeventhCycle on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 01:28:17 PM EST

I concede to your point about not sourcing every time I say something like that.

It just seems that so many people go through school half asleep, and fail to realize the appropriateness of a particular work, phrase, or saying outside of a movie reference or song within the last 50 years.

Sorry to vent my frustration like that.

[ Parent ]

to be fair, (none / 0) (#238)
by Insoc on Tue Sep 06, 2005 at 01:44:11 AM EST

I think he may have been talking of Wiccan deities instead of Hindu. However, shouldn't that make him MORE reprehensible?

[ Parent ]
+1 Yeats, WIPO: Austin, TX. /nt (1.00 / 4) (#58)
by claes on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 08:05:33 AM EST



Major of NO sounds really angry. (2.00 / 3) (#60)
by slpyhd on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 08:26:17 AM EST

http://www.libera.be/files/nagin.mp3

I wonder if Nero (2.66 / 3) (#71)
by minerboy on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:42:23 AM EST

Was angry at the end too ? - the mayor has some right to be angry, but then again, his poor performance before the storm hit was a big part of the current problem.



[ Parent ]
thanks (none / 1) (#139)
by lordDogma on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:44:59 PM EST

People are trying to lay the blame on Bush right now. I think Bush and FEMA bear some responsibility, but the local and sate govt are also responsible.

[ Parent ]
More than just the current govs as well.... (2.66 / 3) (#177)
by SvnLyrBrto on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:44:13 AM EST

The levee system (Responsibility of the US Army Corp of Engineers, IIRC.) that was supposed to protect New Orleans has been systematically neglected for many years.... under both republican and democrat presidents.

cya,
john

Imagine all the people...
[ Parent ]

I hate you (1.05 / 18) (#61)
by Glutamine on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 08:52:03 AM EST

Honest

You know what? Screw this crap. (2.00 / 16) (#62)
by Harvey Anderson on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 08:56:39 AM EST

There was a part of you that was pleased that this event gave you something to write about.  Not that you would have taken the hurricane/story deal if it was in your power to command, but since it happened, make the best of it, right?

You and that dork holed up at DirectNIC, such capable tough guys.  Whatever.

In both science and myth the ocean is the mother of us all; if mountains are the Earth's expression of jutting maleness, the ocean with its frictionless surface and black depths is her expression of female receptiveness. But the Goddess, as quite a few New Agers fail to grok, is not just the comforting image of "Mother Nature." The Goddess is triune; she is the Mother, true, but she is also the fecund and tempting Virgin. And sometimes she is an earthquake, tornado, and hurricane-throwing bitch.

This is hilarious; did this come out of a writing group session where a lot of Jewel was listened to?

So? Sausages, politics and human motivation - (none / 0) (#89)
by padda on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 12:13:02 PM EST

you don't want to know what makes them up.

[ Parent ]
People have to understand (2.00 / 3) (#109)
by Harvey Anderson on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 03:30:40 PM EST

why they do what they do if they do want to do better.

[ Parent ]
And you need to understand (none / 0) (#248)
by localman on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 09:31:44 PM EST

...that "better" is subjective. I thought the paragraph you blasted was excellent. Of course, I'm an occasional Jewel listening loser, so you probably wouldn't agree with much of my taste. But thank god there are creative works that you hate and I like. And the other way around, too.

[ Parent ]
Hey, (none / 0) (#249)
by Harvey Anderson on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 01:36:24 AM EST

there are Jewel songs I like.

Of course better is subjective.  But in this context we are talking about what boils down to attention-mongering.  Most people would agree that this is bad ("if everyone was like this we would be in trouble"); at some point you have to plant the flag.  I am confident pointing that out as a flaw.  There's no hope for change if the 'culprit' does not understand why it is they do what they do.

[ Parent ]

News flash (none / 0) (#250)
by localroger on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 07:32:43 PM EST

I hate Jewel's songs. All of them, without reservation.

However, I interpret your criticism as "I have no knowledge of prescientific symbolic systems and no interest in them and I think any mention of them is a waste of pixels." Which is a fair view, if you state it honestly.

But writing a flowery paragraph like that isn't "attention mongering" and there are places where it's not only appropriate, it's good. (Sadly, Jewel's songs are not among those places.)

Think what you want about me -- there are certainly lots of opinions -- but I'll tell you a simple thing about my motivation: I write what I would like to read. Period. If you think that paragraph was awful I advise you to never, ever pick up a book by some hack loser like Stephen King or, god help you, Neal Stephenson.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

It's not that complicated, overthinker. (none / 0) (#251)
by Harvey Anderson on Tue Oct 04, 2005 at 07:15:48 PM EST

You are an attention-monger.

You wrote that to satisfy your attention-mongering urges.

The quality of Stephen King or Neal Stephenson has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not you are an attention-monger.

My interest or lack thereof in 'prescientific symbolic systems' has nothing to do with your being an attention-monger, though it does have something to do with your desire to be flowery and/or gay.

Being an attention-monger is a bad thing to be, regardless of what good may come from it.

Boo attention-mongers!

[ Parent ]

Pot. Kettle. Black. /nt (none / 0) (#252)
by localroger on Tue Oct 04, 2005 at 08:06:45 PM EST



I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
No. n/t (none / 0) (#253)
by Harvey Anderson on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 12:17:47 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Living on the coast (3.00 / 2) (#73)
by it certainly is on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:55:05 AM EST

Most people live on the coast; not because they "play in the ocean", but because that's where most of the water is.

People need running water, and lots of it. Cities are built around rivers. Major cities are built around large rivers. Rivers are at their largest by the coast. You can also pump from the ocean if the river isn't adequate any more.

It ain't rocket science. Look at a map of Australia, if you need a clear example.

kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.

in the US (none / 0) (#84)
by aphrael on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:46:11 AM EST

virtually nobody pumps water supplies from the sea.

[ Parent ]
Would be true... (3.00 / 5) (#86)
by ckaminski on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:50:51 AM EST

except that desalination is not done on any significant amount in the developed world.  You are correct on the rivers bit, though.  The fact that seacoasts are where the population is, is that is because that is where the trade is, where the ships are, where the energy products come in, and the finished goods go out.  So it has been since the dawn of civilization, and so it will be until aircraft are cheaper to operate than container ships.

[ Parent ]
Erm (none / 0) (#137)
by skim123 on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:43:56 PM EST

I don't think it's so much for drinking water, but for transportation/shipping. LA would be half of the size it is now if it weren't for its ports.

Money is in some respects like fire; it is a very excellent servant but a terrible master.
PT Barnum


[ Parent ]
Do you have any idea (none / 1) (#211)
by Empedocles on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 04:45:03 AM EST

how much it costs to build and operate a desalinization plant?

---
And I think it's gonna be a long long time
'Till touch down brings me 'round again to find
I'm not the man they think I am at home

[ Parent ]
About the poll... (2.50 / 2) (#77)
by JediTrainer on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:38:06 AM EST

Any particular reason you forgot about Canada? Seriously - you're more than welcome to move up here. Generally things are pretty mild as far as natural disasters go, and our economy is in great shape.

Ran out of entries (none / 0) (#90)
by localroger on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 12:15:34 PM EST

I will actually probably move near Jackson, MS so I can continue to work for the same company I do now. Much of my work ends up being installed in their territory anyway. But of course they are having big problems there too at the moment...

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
Even If (none / 0) (#91)
by rebelcan on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 12:18:29 PM EST

Especially if you live on the West Coast, or more specifically, Vancouver.

We might have a ten month rainy season, but our two months of sun are quite beautiful. And we don't have to deal with the infamous "Canadian winters". Only those east of the Rockies ( ie, the rest of Canada) have to deal with those.

Ha ha! Take that Calgary/Edmonton! ( The two largest cities/towns/villages/eskimo villages in Alberta, towns which can get a foot of snow....in the middle of summer )


=============================
God is dead -- Nietzsche
Nietzsche is dead -- God
but Zombie Nietzsche lives! -- Zombie Nietzsche
[ Parent ]

Edmonton (3.00 / 2) (#105)
by yamla on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 03:03:53 PM EST

Yeah, but Edmonton has great.... errrr...

Fuck.  Why am I still here?

[ Parent ]

I know the feeling.... (none / 1) (#108)
by jbiafra on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 03:30:23 PM EST

I lived there for just over 5 years, and every winter I would bitch about how ugly and cold the city got. Most people would try and sell me on the economy and explain how with the money you make there you could spend 3-4 weeks somewhere nice each year. I always responded with "well why don't you just *live* somewhere nice and get 52 weeks a year?" In the end my bitching finally pushed a friend to say "if you don't like it why don't you get the hell out of here?" 30 days later I had sold my house, quit my job, and moved to Vancouver :>

[ Parent ]
Bah! (none / 1) (#118)
by rebelcan on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 05:22:12 PM EST

It's nice that all you Albertans come to Vancouver to live.

What's not nice is how you bring all your bad driving habits with you =P. I mean, we already have enough old asian women, I think ICBC already has enough claims on its hands.


=============================
God is dead -- Nietzsche
Nietzsche is dead -- God
but Zombie Nietzsche lives! -- Zombie Nietzsche
[ Parent ]

Don't I know it. /nt. (none / 0) (#206)
by spooked on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 07:28:06 PM EST



Seriously.
[ Parent ]
job? (none / 0) (#120)
by issachar on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 05:44:00 PM EST

A job? That's why a lot of my friends have moved to Alberta from BC.
---
Vegetarians eat vegetables. Humanitarians scare me.
Diary? I do a blog.
[ Parent ]
"Canadian winters"? (none / 0) (#111)
by The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 03:57:51 PM EST

Only central Canada has those.

BOTH coasts are relatively mild. Hell, Nova Scotia has milder winters than New England despite being farther north.

___
I'm a pompous windbag, I take myself far too seriously, and I single-handedly messed up K5 by causing the fiction section to be created. --localroger

[ Parent ]
Than *most* of New England (none / 0) (#185)
by rusty on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 09:51:30 AM EST

The winters in NS are about the same as those on the Maine south and midcoast, and probably about the same as Cape Cod too.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Touche. (none / 0) (#193)
by The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 12:53:09 PM EST



___
I'm a pompous windbag, I take myself far too seriously, and I single-handedly messed up K5 by causing the fiction section to be created. --localroger

[ Parent ]
10 bucks says you don't go through with it nt (1.80 / 5) (#82)
by balsamic vinigga on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:43:42 AM EST



---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
You don't have ten bucks. (1.80 / 5) (#110)
by kitten on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 03:42:54 PM EST


mirrorshades radio - darkwave, synthpop, industrial, futurepop.
[ Parent ]
ayyo (1.19 / 26) (#87)
by balsamic vinigga on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:51:28 AM EST

I've been so wigged out over this horrible news lately that i've stopped getting blown by my favorite hooker because her name is Katrina.

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
lol jews did new orleans (1.15 / 33) (#95)
by Tex Bigballs on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 12:29:18 PM EST

lol jews

Thats exactly the same.... (none / 1) (#127)
by The Amazing Idiot on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 08:04:21 PM EST

Shit that was serioulsy spouted on NPR on 9/11/2001.

It's still funny (and sad). Fucking radical liberals.

[ Parent ]

oh come on (none / 0) (#166)
by rhiannon on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:52:35 PM EST

Give me a transcript where someone who works for npr says the jews 'did' 9/11. Sure maybe someone called up and said that shit but that happens on conservative shows also.

-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
[ Parent ]
apparently you might be right. (none / 1) (#143)
by forgotten on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:14:35 PM EST

some nutters say it is god's wrath for supporting the jewish pullout of the gaza strip.

--

[ Parent ]

Gah so my donations buys what? (1.33 / 9) (#98)
by Fen on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 01:22:01 PM EST

Instead of transhumanism it's now a few tanks of gas. Woot, $384 to nothing. I'm gonna rethink my generosity.
--Self.
Your donation is still in the bank, Fen (none / 1) (#102)
by localroger on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 02:19:37 PM EST

When the shit has cleared I will probably use that money for what I was originally thinking, to buy a more modern computer. Meanwhile, I can afford gas.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
Don't bullshit me (none / 1) (#130)
by Fen on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 08:18:04 PM EST

The money is going to gas. Whatever you earn later will go to the computer. And neither is necessary for decent transhumanist fiction.
--Self.
[ Parent ]
No, really. (none / 1) (#132)
by localroger on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 08:38:25 PM EST

I am a long way from needing your money for gas. Really. But then again, how long that remains true might depend on how long it takes the whole 3rd world vibe going on around me to fade.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
Just kidding! (none / 0) (#169)
by Fen on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 12:17:24 AM EST

Just spend the money on a few blowjobs from a nice skanky ho. I've been giving you crap but that's just to give you crap. If you've noticed, I give a nominal amount on occasion to first post. Nothing asked of them at all. So no big deal! Oh, and I still have to read your new fiction thingy. From your stories, I'm sure it will be far better than I can do. Thanks for writing, and putting up with my bullshit.
--Self.
[ Parent ]
MASLOW'S HIERARCHY OF NEEDS (none / 1) (#106)
by topynate on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 03:23:42 PM EST

Google it up.


"...identifying authors with their works is a feckless game. Simply to go by their books, Agatha Christie is a mass murderess, while William Buckley is a practicing Christian." --Gore Vidal
[ Parent ]
I knew that would end in tears. (none / 0) (#142)
by forgotten on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:13:12 PM EST

nt

--

[ Parent ]

Requiem for multiculturalism (1.42 / 7) (#100)
by Baldrson on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 02:09:26 PM EST

"...The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity..."

Sounds like K5 but really I shouldn't single out K5.

As the mayor or New Orleans said:

"We need an effort of 9-11 proportions," former New Orleans Mayor Marc Morial, now president of the Urban League, said on NBC's "Today" show.

"A great American city is fighting for its life," he added. "We must rebuild New Orleans, the city that gave us jazz, and music, and multiculturalism."

-------- Empty the Cities --------


Jazz? (3.00 / 2) (#136)
by skim123 on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:41:10 PM EST

If I'm not mistaken, the NBA team called The Jazz play in Salt Lake City, not Utah. Perhaps the former mayor misspoke - Salt Lake City is the home of jazz.

Money is in some respects like fire; it is a very excellent servant but a terrible master.
PT Barnum


[ Parent ]
Your humor is ruined. (none / 1) (#174)
by your_desired_username on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:38:50 AM EST

sadly.

Salt Lake City, not Utah

should have been

Salt Lake City, not New Orleans

Not really relevant to your joke, but the NBA Jazz were originally founded in New Orleans. And Salt Lake City is in Utah, even though they keep voting for Democratic Mayors who protest against President Bush, while the rest of the state votes for Bush with unmatched fervor.

[ Parent ]

This is precisely what happens... (none / 0) (#225)
by skim123 on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 04:11:51 PM EST

... when I try to be funny. You don't want to be around me when I'm trying to be consoling.

Money is in some respects like fire; it is a very excellent servant but a terrible master.
PT Barnum


[ Parent ]
Western NY (3.00 / 3) (#104)
by Eight Star on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 02:22:44 PM EST

No tornados, hurricanes, or earthquakes. Floods are generally confined to our basements. Our biggest problem is snow, and we deal with that faily well.
Canada is nearby, which can be very handy.

Of course, I want to move to California.

I don't know why people are bitching about this story, as one solution to this kind of problem is for millions of people make this same decision. Yes it's all about him, he has to decide to move. No, he's no writing about what's happening in N.O. because he isn't there right now.

Ice Storms (none / 1) (#208)
by speek on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 10:40:14 PM EST

Oh, the horror! Wait, oh, the beauty! No, wait, the horror! Beauty! Horror! ...

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
[ Parent ]

Because it's a diary, not a story (none / 0) (#210)
by destroy all monsters on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 03:35:27 AM EST

and follows it up by claiming that he's writing the city's story. That's why.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]
Move to the Great White North (2.25 / 4) (#107)
by MichaelCrawford on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 03:28:20 PM EST

There is a shortage of computer programmers in Canada. I don't know if it's still the case, but during the dot com boom there was a special visa category just for programmers. If you get a job up here, your employer can sponsor you.

The easiest visa to get is a TN-1. You need a college degree, and a written job offer for one of the jobs that's on a certain list. For programmers they have to say your job is to be a "systems analyst". It's good for a year and renewable, you just show your documentation at the border or airport and pay a small fee.

(The US and Mexico have the TN-1 visa too, it stands for "trade nafta". It's how Bonita was able to come live with me in 1998, she has a degree in biology.)

There is some embedded work in Halifax, I guess mostly in the ship yards and navy base, but most software in canada is in ontario and british columbia.

Oh, yeah, nova scotia got hit by hurricane juan the week before we moved here in 2003. Not as bad as Katrina, but everyone was surprised there could be a hurricane this far north.


-- "You're not as big an asshat as everyone seems to think." - Kurosawa Nagaya.


Make damn sure u can deal w/the dark & cold (none / 0) (#141)
by nlscb on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:09:35 PM EST

I lived in Canda for 5 years, and while the summers are the finest on earth, the other 9 months of the year are TEH SUKC. Endless cold, and more importantly, endless darkness. It's not Scandanavia bad, but it's still pretty lousy. I ended finding out the hard way I have Seasonal Affective Dissorder. While it's not that common, it sounds like you have lived in the American South most of your life. You and/or your wife may find it difficult to cope.

In defense of Canada, I have a big soft spot in my heart for it otherwise. Safe, clean, tolerant, incredibly diverse (and surprisingly affordable) cities, great food, a highly educated and truly worldly population that shows because they generally don't have to brag about it **COUGH**the French**COUGH** unless we really get on their nerves. Don't try dating there though - since you're married I doubt it matters - but just thought you should know - just trust me on that one.

Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange
[ Parent ]

True North is great but... (none / 0) (#171)
by MSBob on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 12:39:49 AM EST

As a dweller of this fine country I'm happy to learn you enjoyed your time here (save for the weather which frankly, there is little we can do about). Beware though, that any US wide crisis will spill over into Canada.

Take the next big shit that's about to hit the fan for the USA, the oil shortage. Canada is not going to be immune. Prices of gas will skyrocket here too. If they don't then thirsty SUVs from south of the border will suck our gas pumps dry. The coming crisis is unavoidable and unlike the flood and the hurricane it will have a major effect on the whole North American continent and likely the rest of the world but not as rapidly as here.

I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

[ Parent ]
Navy Base? (none / 0) (#247)
by Grayworld on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 10:41:12 PM EST

Does Canada still have a Navy or do they rent this base to the U.S. Navy, a practice it seems just about every other country with a coastline seems to do? I guess I wouldn't be surprised to hear there were still a few beat up old Ice Breakers around-but ships with missles and guns? I'm surprised!


Fair but a bit unbalanced to be sure!
[ Parent ]

I would like to take this opportunity (2.16 / 6) (#133)
by shoeboy on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 08:53:15 PM EST

To break ranks with my former comrades and say "Keep up the good work, localroger!" I for one appreciate what you're doing here.

--Peter Johnson
No more trolls!

woosh woosh (1.46 / 15) (#150)
by Tex Bigballs on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:37:13 PM EST

       
      \/  V
o->/  \/ -|-
\ .   / . o/
 \   o    /  _n
 ,\      /  /  \
   \  , /.  |__|
  . \  /   
     \/    
wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


Didn't realize you had taken up voodoo (none / 0) (#157)
by localroger on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:03:07 PM EST

Niced Ve-Ve there.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
yep i've taken up voodoo (2.33 / 9) (#160)
by Tex Bigballs on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:13:00 PM EST

i am going to try smashing the fingers of my local roger doll with a mallet in an effort to save k5

[ Parent ]
you're not K5ARP (nt) (none / 1) (#172)
by xmnemonic on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:21:10 AM EST



[ Parent ]
you idiot (3.00 / 3) (#194)
by I LOATHE TROLLS on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 01:44:35 PM EST

tex is the original k5arp before k5arp existed

[ Parent ]
lol (1.00 / 3) (#203)
by Tex Bigballs on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:10:30 PM EST

i am glad i'm not the only one who enjoyed the irony here

[ Parent ]
obviously. (none / 0) (#240)
by bitch dog on Tue Sep 06, 2005 at 11:31:52 AM EST

no hay texto

[ Parent ]
Non-partisan examination of causes of disaster (2.88 / 17) (#155)
by lordDogma on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 10:51:45 PM EST

I. This disaster appears to have been made far far worse than it could have been by a number of factors:

A. The Hurricane was a Category 4/5.

1. We are in a bad hurricane cycle that will last another 20 years.

2. Global warming might contribute to hurricane intensity, but this is most likely political dogma in the case of Katrina.

3. Levee system (see C) was designed for Category 3 max.

B. The precarious location of New Orleans.

1. Surrounded by water on three sides.

2. 70% below sea level and slowly sinking.

C. A river levee system, along with overzealous oil exploration.

1. causes the marshes protecting New Orleans from storm surge to disappear at a rate of two acres per hour (yeah I know thats pretty stunning - I got it from National Geographic).

D. A lack of funding for the levee system and for marshland protection.

1. Has never been fully funded. Bush's cuts have made it worse.

2. Several hundred million required to expland and maintain levee system. Bush cut funding to about 1/4 to 1/2 what was needed.

3. $14 Billion requested over 30 years for marshland restoration. Bush cut back to $2 Billion over 10 years.

E. Failure in FEMA planning.

1. Partly due to incompetence.

2. Partly due to reorganization woes after 9/11. Focus shifted to terrorist attacks, natural disaster releif de-emphasised.

3. FEMA incorporated into DHS, adding to beareaucratic red tape.

F. Louisiana National Guard in Iraq fighting war - unavailable for Katrina Disaster.

G. New Orleans population one of poorest in country.

1. 68% Black.

2. Many did not have means to leave city, did not own cars, etc.

H. Many people decided to ride hurricane out even though they had means to leave city. Did not understand magnitude of storm.

I. Failure to plan on part of state and local government.

1. This disaster was long considered an imminent threat.

2. Should have had plan ready to help evacuate people before storm hit, drawing buses from all parts of state.

3. Should have disseminated survival information

(i) Map of areas with high ground.
(ii) Info on what to put in an emergency kit - one gallon of water, a bar of soap, first aid kit, dried fruit packets, other basic needs.
(iii) Survival tips.
(iv) Note: This should have been done a long time ago. A terrorist could have blown the levee walls years ago. This is a major failure on the part of the *local* government (e.g. mayor).

4. Should have budgeted and built 48-hour stocks of non-perishable food and water for 100,000 people. (Local to the city and independent of FEMA.)

II. Probably a lot more I'm missing but that sums it up. It was a failure on many levels. The blame is shared from bottom to top.

Don't quit your day job to be a journalist. (1.00 / 13) (#159)
by Paulsweblog on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:08:12 PM EST


--
Blood for blood and death for death.
[ Parent ]

Whats wrong with it? (3.00 / 6) (#164)
by lordDogma on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:30:16 PM EST

It's meant to be a summary. There is a lot of finger pointing going on, and I think this helps set the facts straight.

[ Parent ]
Id say you are right on.. (nt) (none / 0) (#191)
by neozeed on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 12:37:50 PM EST


-----------------------
Unless you're alive you can't play. And if you don't play, you don't get to be alive.
[ Parent ]

Don't quit your day job being an asshole (2.25 / 4) (#165)
by rhiannon on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:39:08 PM EST

You should stick to simple insults instead of making feeble attempts to be witty.

-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
[ Parent ]
Missed iterm (none / 1) (#221)
by tinkertux on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 10:56:08 AM EST

Something like 68% of Orleans county voted for Kerry. Oops...

[ Parent ]
Very good overview. (none / 1) (#228)
by porkchop_d_clown on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 04:43:02 PM EST

But on the subject of I-2 ("Should have had plan ready to help evacuate people before storm hit, drawing buses from all parts of state.") I've heard claims that they didn't even follow the evacuation plan they did have. And, of course, if they had mobilized the school buses they could have gotten thousands more out of town.

Still, hindsight is 20-20. After living through a hurricane and an ultimately meaningless evacuation myself, you start thinking "oh, this is just going to be another near miss, just like all those other times."

How many trolls could a true troll troll if a true troll could troll trolls?
[ Parent ]

Katrina Timeline (none / 1) (#242)
by gandalf23 on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 12:27:51 PM EST

I found this Katrina response timeline interesting and sobering.

Katrina Response Timeling

to quote from the author's conclusion:

"I’ve just about reached the limit of what I would like to accomplish with this project. I’m sure much more information on the actual response of local, state, and federal government to the disaster will come to light in the next weeks and months. But with the exception of a few more links to highlight the military’s response, most of what we’re seeing is what officials didn’t do rather than what they did or how they coped with the tragedy.

If I may be allowed a personal opinion?

This has been a clusterf**k from the get go on all levels and with a few unbelievably heroic exceptions – mostly the LA Fish and Wildlife employees who were out in boats rescuing people almost before the storm passed and our selfless military who performed with their usual spectacular competence and courage. I am convinced that any Commission or Congressional investigation – if even slightly impartial – will find enough stupidity, incompetence, panic, blame shifting, lying, and bureaucratic ass covering to sate the appetite for name calling and blame assigning of even the most partisan among us.

This was a failure of leadership and competence. But it was also a failure of will. And for that, you need look no farther than the mirror in your bathroom, dearest readers. We elected this crew. We elected the Congresses over the past 25 years – Democratic and Republican – that failed to do the things necessary to make New Orleans safer.

Elections have consequences. Consider that fact the next time you pull the curtain in the booth to cast your vote. If nothing else, the aftermath of this tragedy reminds us of that, then perhaps something worthwhile will have been learned."

[ Parent ]

Levees that broke were already reinforced. (none / 0) (#246)
by SnowBlind on Thu Sep 15, 2005 at 05:52:30 PM EST

Not widely reported, but had the levee's been FULLY funded, it would not have made a damn bit of difference.

The accusation that somehow more money would have helped is a complete fallacy, and easily debunked. The fact is the levee's would not have withstood a force 4 hurricane even if complete.

The specific levee's that broke had ALREADY been reinforced to the full exent they were planned to be:

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers said Thursday that a lack of funding for hurricane-protection projects around New Orleans did not contribute to the disastrous flooding that followed Hurricane Katrina.

In a telephone interview with reporters, corps officials said that although portions of the flood-protection levees remain incomplete, the levees near Lake Pontchartrain that gave way-inundating much of the city-were completed and in good condition before the hurricane.

However, they noted that the levees were designed for a Category 3 hurricane and couldn't handle the ferocious winds and raging waters from Hurricane Katrina, which was a Category 4 storm when it hit the coastline. The decision to build levees for a Category 3 hurricane was made decades ago based on a cost-benefit analysis

 "I don't see that the level of funding was really a contributing factor in this case," said Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers for the corps. "Had this project been fully complete, it is my opinion that based on the intensity of this storm that the flooding of the business district and the French Quarter would have still taken place."

Reference:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050901corps,1,7189346.story?coll=ch i-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

There is but One Kernel, and root is His Prophet.
[ Parent ]

The one thing that really kills me about this (2.00 / 7) (#168)
by lordDogma on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 12:13:19 AM EST

Congress couldn't fund $10 billion over the last decade to shore up the levee system and marshlands...

But congress can fund $10 billion for emergency relief in one day after a hurricane hits, doing $100 billion in damage...

Now granted, $10 billion is a lot to pay for disaster prevention for one god damned city, but...

As a result of not paying the $10 billion, we now have to pay $110 billion to fix everything.

Something tells me our democratic system does not operate in a mathematically optimal way. I strongly suggest replacing our system of government with a fascist one. A lot of shit will get done with these guys in charge.

Even fascists have to consider opportunity costs (3.00 / 3) (#178)
by Mason on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:53:37 AM EST

Like whether or not to commit the national guard, our second-tier civil defense force, to an open-ended foreign adventure.  Or to cut federal funding for a nation's infrastructure in order to funnel tax cuts to the wealthy.  Democracy, fascism, or pseudo-proto-whatever-fascism, they all have to make those trade-offs.

So the only real solution is to take that next step and disassemble the free press which might report that the trains aren't on time (or that the disaster preparedness was less than stellar).  No perception:  no problem.

This assumes that simply acting in the public's interest is not a viable option, of course.

[ Parent ]

I read somewhere recently... (none / 1) (#222)
by skyknight on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 12:24:40 PM EST

that the Army Corps of Engineers asked for $140M this past year to properly bolster New Orleans's levees, and they were given only $40M. It's a good thing we saved that $100M. It meant we could splurge it elsewhere on pork projects for powerful senators.

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
This is true. (none / 0) (#229)
by porkchop_d_clown on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 04:54:36 PM EST

but as I mentioned above, the ACOE itself states that the project that money was for wasn't the levees that actually broke.

Listening to the head of the ACOE he indicated that they really didn't anticpate a levee breaking like that - the failure mode they expected was that water would come over the top, but that the concrete walls themselves would hold. So, either the levees weren't built properly in the first place, or he's trying to cover Bush's behind. I have no idea which is true (at this point).

Good thing Bush isn't running for reelection though - it doesn't matter if this is really his fault or not, he's played it even more stupidly than he did 9-11.

How many trolls could a true troll troll if a true troll could troll trolls?
[ Parent ]

Everybody lies. (none / 0) (#237)
by skyknight on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 07:10:37 PM EST

I've long since given up believing anything that comes out of the PR of this administration. In any case, yes, Bush has a hell of a lot of egg on his face right now. Things are going exceptionally badly for him.

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
And yet... (none / 0) (#227)
by porkchop_d_clown on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 04:38:08 PM EST

the levees that broke were new concrete walls that weren't scheduled for an upgrade - so the money wouldn't have stopped this. It does make me wonder if someone cut corners during the construction of the levees though.

How many trolls could a true troll troll if a true troll could troll trolls?
[ Parent ]
hindsight (none / 0) (#234)
by ccdotnet on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:39:55 AM EST

As a result of not paying the $10 billion, we now have to pay $110 billion to fix everything.

I agree with your sentiment, but you're using hindsight unreasonably. If you have 10 public safety issues to spend your $10 billion on, and failing time travel technology, only a crystal ball will make you look like a genius.

That said, it did seem to be "on the cards", given the SA and NatGeo articles other people have linked to.

[ Parent ]

A Hurricane Destroyed My City (1.81 / 11) (#170)
by Chewbacca Uncircumsized on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 12:18:56 AM EST

You lucky bastard, that's better than 'my sister is retarded' for a college application essay topic.

Move to Las Vegas... (none / 1) (#173)
by doormat on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 03:37:43 AM EST

Unemployment is at or under 4%. People are having a hard time finding quality help. But housing is very expensive... and it gets hot in the summer, but its a dry heat.

|\
|/oormat

"Drowning New Orleans", 2001 article (2.87 / 8) (#176)
by Name of Feather on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 04:35:37 AM EST

Last Sunday, when it became clear that Katrina would hit New Orleans directly or very close, I remembered that some years ago I had read an article in Scientific American discussing the vulnerability of the city to this kind of disaster.

However, judging from relatively calm initial coverage by the media, I thought that the vulnerabilities exposed by the article had been solved in the meantime -- that is why everyine was was being so calm and blasé about it.

Obviously not. Yesterday I googled for a reference to the article, found out that I had not been imagining things -- it was indeed published back in October 2001 -- and dug through my pile of old magazines to find it. And there it was: a harrowing prediction of what just happen.

It is (partly) available online for reading: "Drowning New Orleans"

another prediction (3.00 / 3) (#180)
by tjw on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 09:24:23 AM EST

It is (partly) available online for reading: "Drowning New Orleans"

A similar story was in National Geographic, October 2004:

The Big Uneasy

[ Parent ]

wow its right here in one line: (2.66 / 3) (#189)
by neozeed on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 11:38:33 AM EST

"If Congress and President George W. Bush hear a unified call for action, authorizing it would seem prudent. Restoring coastal Louisiana would protect the country's seafood and shipping industries and its oil and natural-gas supply."

And we did nothing.

As an aside ever notice that Septembers are bad for America with the theif in charge? (9/11/2001,9/1/2005) what is it about the september following an election?

-----------------------
Unless you're alive you can't play. And if you don't play, you don't get to be alive.
[ Parent ]

Apparently, no one asked them to. (3.00 / 2) (#226)
by porkchop_d_clown on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 04:35:49 PM EST

I listened to a civil engineering professor on NPR who went on an extended (although civil) rant about years of presentations to local officials in NOLA who ignored everything they were told.

He was particularly harsh about how they'd been repeatedly warned about needing better evacuation plans.

How many trolls could a true troll troll if a true troll could troll trolls?
[ Parent ]

TV show (none / 0) (#241)
by Verteiron on Tue Sep 06, 2005 at 06:05:56 PM EST

A few years ago I saw a show about floods on the Discovery channel (or one of its derivatives). It was mostly about flash floods, mudslides, etc but there was a bit on tsunamis, and quite a bit on hurricanes and storm surges. Specifically mentioned was New Orleans and its vulnerability to such a surge. The information presented by the show was frightening, and I remember being glad I had moved away from the coast years earlier. I guess no one in New Orleans gets the Discovery channel...
--
Prisoners! Seize each other!
[ Parent ]
After all this is over (2.52 / 21) (#196)
by Hung Fu on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 02:00:26 PM EST

You guys better invade whoever is responsible. Don't be cowardly hurricane appeasers

__
From Israel To Lebanon
Further to your musing: Tom DeLay (2.00 / 2) (#215)
by Robert Acton on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 06:27:22 AM EST

, who after careful consideration came up with these choice words back when the Tsunami struck south east Asia on Boxing day.

And everyone who listens to these words of mine, but does not act on them, will be like a fool who built his house on sand:

The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew, and buffeted the house, and it collapsed and was completely ruined.

Now, he could repeat that speech. And this time, he'd have a bloody good point.

That's why I won't be donating to anything Katrina-related. If you keep bailing these people out of their own mess they'll never learn.

--
I am cured.

Your have my Prayers localroger (2.50 / 2) (#224)
by Practicing To Be An Alcoholic on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 02:04:19 PM EST

Many of my family, immediate, like my mother's sisters and one brother, plus countless cousins are still missing. I have searched every list I can, but I have heard from 5 of 20 first cousins that have made it out of the Mississipi area. Plus I have given names on the Red Cross site to try to find as many as I can. Nothing may come of it, but I feel the need to find them. Material things can be replaced, people can't.

I have given a pint of blood and donated a total of $80 towards the American Red Cross and droped another $20 into a fireman's boot that was on the street corner collecting for the Hurricane Relief Fund.

I CHALLENGE all Kuro5hin members to donate blood, bottled water or money to the hurricane relief. If I can do it, so can you. Even if a dollar is all you can afford, it can go towards a bottle of fresh water or an insulin treatment for a diabetic.

Many people lost their homes, their clothing, their pictures, their loved ones. Dig deep people and don't be a troll. For once in your life take action and do something to help here in America. This is America's opportunity to show the people in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama that someone cares about them.


Alcohol my permanent accessory
Snark... (none / 0) (#245)
by Pluto on Thu Sep 08, 2005 at 10:41:43 PM EST

I'm pretty upset about it, but it really should have killed a hell of a lot more people than it did.

FEMA ordered only 25,000 body bags for New Orleans, today. I thought it was gonna be a whole lot worse, too.

<end snark
_______________________________________
Burgeoning technologies require outlaw zones... deliberately unsupervised playgrounds for technology itself. -- William Gibson

Hi, my name is Roger and I am a New Orleanian | 253 comments (231 topical, 22 editorial, 0 hidden)
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