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The Making and Meaning of Naked Lunch

By Egil Skallagrimson in Culture
Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 12:00:00 PM EST
Tags: Literary Criticism, Pure Genius (all tags)

If William S. Burroughs truly feared a word virus, an idea he often made reference to in his later Nova Trilogy, then Naked Lunch was the ultimate inoculation against that verbal disease. Though it was written before the three books that would comprise the Nova Trilogy (The Soft Machine, The Ticket That Exploded and Nova Express), Naked Lunch was the cure that came before the illness. It was his version of the needle to cure all literary lesions and stem the tide of evils that language has the ability to produce through its constantly changing, adapting, regrouping control systems.


Burroughs' war against language was ironic, though, as he used the very language he sought to destroy in his attempt to develop his arsenal. Only through his use of language could he disentangle the web that all words have the ability to create. It was fighting fire with fire, and through the medium that culminated to become Naked Lunch, he launched a career of constant battle against words and their constraints. Naked Lunch, a collection of old stories turned on their ear and hilarious routines at one time devised as tools to romantically entrap Allen Ginsberg, became Burroughs' expression system.

An expression system is the vehicle used by a pharmaceutical company to deliver the drug that has been developed to combat against an identified disease or ailment. It can come in the form of a pill or a liquid, a powder, even a gas.  Either way, it is the vehicle used to deliver the drug product itself. But, no drug is ever delivered in its pure form. All drugs are delivered in a form that encapsulates the active ingredient that is intended to cure the stated problem, watering down and diluting the drug to make it safe for human consumption. In Burroughs work, Naked Lunch is the initial inoculation, a less concentrated form of what was to follow immediately after in the Nova Trilogy.

Because Naked Lunch is an expression system, the vehicle designed to deliver the message that will become an ongoing mantra, a continuous death knell for language and words, it introduced a new way of telling stories meant to be guideposts for the reader. At the end of Naked Lunch is the famous line that Burroughs wrote about releasing his Word Hoard, virtually unleashing a legion of his Words designed to kill the Word Virus that had invaded and taken over the minds of all humans everywhere. In much the same way a pharmaceutical is designed to combat an enemy virus, Naked Lunch was designed to combat the conservative Western ideas that proliferated throughout the Western world at the time of the book's writing.

The vaccination that Naked Lunch proposes is the forerunner to all of Burroughs later novels, and specifically the novels of the 1960's and 1970's. The race to eliminate language, and then take it back form those who would use it for nefarious purposes is still an idea in its infancy in Naked Lunch, drawing on his earlier work and realized in the letters he wrote home during his exile in Tangiers, but quickly evolving into a realized attack against morals that appear outmoded and literature that, in Burroughs estimation, could have been written by anyone. A totally different work form the writing he had done up until that point, Naked Lunch became the model for the rest of his career's work.

However, the extreme graphic nature of the work, as well as its ambiguous take on accepted morals of the time caused much controversy, and has often lead, even in the present, to readers looking more to the life of the writer than to the content of the novel. How could anyone write such things and not live the life described in the book himself? For many writers, this would be a case of mistaken fantasy. Writers often observe and record the lives of others instead of actually experiencing something for themselves, being a relatively conservative lot, on the whole. What caused many to question, and eventually confront in court, was that Naked Lunch and its writer, Burroughs, never really denied his lifestyle to the outside world.

He certainly didn't apologize for it. Often in early interviews he could be found side-stepping more complicated issues such as homosexuality and its reality below the surface of society in the early 1960's. Yet, this was never an admittance of guilt or criminality (especially in regards to drugs), but a cautious approach to his new found interest from the media.

This ambiguous feeling towards what many consider "wrong" has both hurt and helped the book. As will be discussed, this is often the real naked Lunch for the first time reader: the life of the author, Burroughs, which many readers know about and assume the book is an accurate description of.

This is not exactly true.

Naked Lunch is fantasy, for the most part. It is a description of many real events that have been stretched and twisted even farther along than thought possible, making them part of a world beyond real, but somehow still mocking ours.  Often, upon reading Naked Lunch for the first time, readers do not understand this.

And perhaps it is not a book that can be readily understood. It has been widely read (though not nearly as other books by Burroughs), but it is not always taken seriously. It is known to be a powerful work of satire and the perfect indictment of conservative social morals, but somehow it is too extreme for many college or university curriculums. Somehow, in the present day, it is still often considered to be distasteful, or irresponsible to put it on the reading list. This is as likely due to its structure and accessibility, which are deemed low or difficult by many, as it is due to its sexual content or rampant drug use.

So, quite often, though it is a valuable antidote to the typical class syllabus, it is passed over for more conventional novels that are both easier to teach and require less background work on behalf of the teacher to make the initial, difficult reading more sensible to the class. Truthfully, to get anything valuable from a reading of Naked Lunch, a fairly large amount of time and discussion is needed.

Readability is probably the major factor in making Naked Lunch a book that is often a novelty item, rather than a distinct part of the canon of English. Part of this is due to the very slow changes that come to the written language and the human consciousness' ability to accept new forms of telling stories and relating fictional ideas. It takes time to go from one convention to another, as the move from poetry to the novel in the 17th century shows. However, it is inevitable that English always changes and adapts to reflect the way the world around it is changing, sometimes being the impetus, sometimes being the reflection.

Naked Lunch and its influence lay clearly on the side of impetus. Its influence is fairly astounding if one traces the roots of its influence back from the present to 1959. If one wants to take into account the work of Ginsberg and Kerouac, an argument can be made that it began seriously influencing other writers long before it was published.

However, it is an often overlooked, as well as often misunderstood, as has been mentioned. The goal of this book is to try and illuminate the fact that Naked Lunch is a very readable book, designed to engage the reader. It was written through the medium of letters in its earliest stages, and so the intention was always to try and draw out the reader and evoke a reaction of some kind.

Without the outlet of Ginsberg as a `receiver', Burroughs could not have formed the book. His letters to Ginsberg throughout the mid-1950's are a continuous appeal for response and reaction, as well as leaving much of the editing to him. In a sense, though Burroughs was very detailed in when it came to his published, or soon to be published work, he was open to Ginsberg using only the portions he felt were useful in the formation of the novel. While he often wrote things on the fly, leaving previously admired protions out atfer a re-read of the manuscript, or spontaniously including something new, when it came to the finished product, Burroughs became exacting. Nonetheless, and to the benefit of the novel, Ginsberg changed very little and made sure to edit out what he felt was irrelevant rather than demanding rewrites of sections. Much of the novel's immediacy comes through because of this, leaving the complicated structure and difficult language intact, even though Burroughs did not edit the early portions as much as Ginsberg did.

Naked Lunch tends to confuse many readers, as they are unused to having to tackle difficult language. However, there is no question that a book of its nature would not have the basic purpose of instruction and methods for better living. As Burroughs writes near the end of the book, Naked Lunch "is a how-to book." The very real moral purpose behind many of the routines, grotesques though they might be, is clear: this is a book designed to point the reader in a direction, offering a way of living and seeing the world, which was certainly a part of the character of Burroughs himself.

The very nature of the book is to involve the reader at a level beyond that of the common novel, forcing them to choose between simply continuing to read on, or putting down the novel because they object to the idea of its ambiguous message on issues that were generally considered controversial at the time of its publishing. It should be noted that the issues at hand, homosexuality, drug addiction and the power of governments to do with common people as they will, are still very controversial and complicated subjects for most writers to adequately confront. Burroughs made this kind of confrontation his prized possession. With the added element of difficult format and brutally succinct language, couched within a specifically satirical structure, Naked Lunch stills maintains its place in the early 21st century as a "difficult" novel for many to read.

The purpose of this book is to discuss the various aspects of Naked Lunch in a close reading that shows the book as an accessible, but cacophonous novel. The reader is forced to participate in the fantasy world that emerges from the pages of the book. Through examinations of Burroughs' own personal myth, and the way it takes away from the book at times, the use of drugs, the use of sex, irony, satire and the use of the book as a tool for social criticism (especially of the powers that control the world as we know it), we are able to show that Naked Lunch is a very relevant book even nearly fifty years after its publishing.

The view that is taken of the novel in this book is that much of it relates exclusively back to Burroughs first, and then has a wider significance for the rest of the world after. This is due to its being formed initially in the letters between Burroughs and Ginsberg throughout the 1950's, making it a very personal book, though very much set in a satirical fantasy world.

The expression system Burroughs developed with Naked Lunch would go on and continue with varying degrees of success for the rest of his career. Naked Lunch is clearly his most famous book, though probably not his most read book. That honor is reserved for Junky, an obviously important document, but one that lacks the complicated structure and language which allows Naked Lunch to have such a deep reservoir to draw from. Though Junky is widely read, and it showcases the talent Burroughs had for straight narrative, it was never considered by Burroughs to really demonstrate what he wanted to in writing. Naked Lunch was his first attempt to truly convey ideas in what he considered to be an original form.  Through the vehicle of his routines and extended grotesques, he was able to formulate a way of telling a story that has been literally impossible for anyone else to emulate with a credible voice.






Previous Articles about Naked Lunch:







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Poll
I Have Read Naked Lunch
o 1 Time 23%
o 2 Times 13%
o 3 Times 0%
o 4 Times 0%
o 5 Times 3%
o 6 Times 0%
o 7 Times 13%
o My Mom Only Let's Me Read About Jesus 46%

Votes: 30
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o The Sad, But Interesting Truth About Naked Lunch and William S. Burroughs
o Concerning Naked Lunch: Part 2 - Nausea and Irony
o Concerning Naked Lunch: Part 3 - Social Criticism
o Concerning Naked Lunch Part 4: Drugs and Addicts
o Part 5: Naked Lunch and Sex and Relationships
o Also by Egil Skallagrimson


Display: Sort:
The Making and Meaning of Naked Lunch | 164 comments (144 topical, 20 editorial, 0 hidden)
i actually read this many years ago..and.. (none / 1) (#1)
by dakini on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 11:36:59 AM EST

you are right, i did not truly understand it..i will have to dig it out again and reread it..thanks for a well done story...+FP from me..

" May your vision be clear, your heart strong, and may you always follow your dreams."
Don't bother (none / 0) (#26)
by MMcP on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 04:13:51 PM EST

I've read it twice so far and have gotten almost nothing out of it.

[ Parent ]
this is an elitist's argument (1.85 / 7) (#5)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 12:58:03 PM EST

if a work is not immediately understandable to the common man, as you say so a number of times above, it isn't valuable

to make an argument otherwise, as you do, is simply elitism, arrogance, an argument for a kind of aristocracy. classism is never right, despite what many people thinks makes them "better" than the "average" person. nobody is better than the common man. if you think you are, then this is a character weakness on your part. humility should be your guide, and if it isn't, you're arrogant and vain. you embrace the common man and what is important to him, or you yourself are guilty of many the evils you say you dislike

for example, there is an argument here against governmental intrusion. authoritarianism is a form of aristocracy where They rule Us. and yet here you are, asserting this book as something the common man cannot appreciate. therefore, you are asserting it as a artifact of not the same aristocracy you rail against, but a different form of aristocracy. no. the only aristocracy better than any aristocracy is no aristocracy. and yet here you are, building an aristocracy

populism rules all, it is the beginning and end of all valid comments on culture, period. and burroughs is not a work appreciable to the common man

therefore, burroughs is unimportant

to say otherwise yourself is to assert your special brand of arrogant vain classism. i deny it


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

So, people should never have to try harder? (none / 0) (#6)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 01:03:20 PM EST

I find it odd how insecure you are. The things you read into this say a lot about you. Don't worry: I think we are equal, okay?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

let's put it this way (1.50 / 4) (#7)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 01:10:29 PM EST

i'm not pol pot (destroy the intellectual elite)

and you're not louis the 14th (classic aristocrat)

but in your words above, you are definitely leaning towards the foundation of a form of elitism

of course you can better yourself, but there is a fine line between bettering yourself, and asserting yourself as better than others

beware your own tendencies in your words above

naked lunch is many things, but as you say, "The things you read into this say a lot about you"

and if naked lunch is as you read it, then naked lunch should be disregarded as a tool of classist elitism

i don't want to do that. i say naked lunch shouldn't be disregarded

but i do say how you read it should be


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Not really. That's not what you said. (2.00 / 3) (#8)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 01:17:10 PM EST

And your usual troll of revising what you said incorrectly the first time won't cut it, either.

Anyway you want to put it, there are books that some people get the first time, which you so eloquentl pointed out are the only ones that matter, and the books that people get after the 10th time.

Neither one makes anyone better than anyone else, so you can stop your insecure whining anout that. However, if Shakespeare was immediately easy to understand had no verbal puzzles to work out, then no one would read it or watch it, despite the fact that it was speciifically written and played in its time for the
common man.

So, that being said, perhaps you'd like to go back and read the essay over without your personal prejudices so that I don't have to answer questions about things that have nothing to do with what I wrote that you are reading into an essay about a book that plainly most people don't get the first time.

M'kay?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

i was kind, i didn't have to be (1.00 / 5) (#11)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 01:36:29 PM EST

my first post i said burroughs was crap

i revised a second time and was kinder to him and said that only your interpretation of burroughs was crap, not burroughs himself

i'm sorry i was trying to be kind. because by trying to be kind to burroughs, i only got repaid with your cruelty, so i won't make that mistake again

happy now you fuck?

you bring up shakespeare, and deeper riddles in his words that grow with a deeper interpretation

i'm glad you bought that up

because burroughs isn't like that

shakespeare presents works which on the surface are excellent, and that also reward deeper inspection

burroughs presents a work which on the surface is inscrutable BY YOUR ADMISSION ABOVE, and rewards deeper inspection if you only if you have elitist inclinations. not your words, but my reading of your character

therefore, burroughs is crap

anything else i can help you with today asshole?

thank you for reminding me of the error of showing you any kindness, i won't be making that mistake again

warmest regards,
circletimessquare
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Oh, well, know I see what you meant. (none / 1) (#12)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 01:40:42 PM EST

  1. You don't like Burroughs.
  2. You don't understand it.
  3. You say it is elitist, trying desperately to attach some kind of moral high-ground to your insecurity so that your ignorance looks like righteous anger.

Sorry. If you don't like it, that's fine. Point taken.

However, your summary of what I wrote is vastly wrong. And don't think I didn't notice that you are distancing yourself from your lame argument now that you basically admit that you just don't like it and wanted to tell me so.

Also, don't feel obligated to be nice to me. I certainly don't feel that towards you.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

you can frame my interpretation that way (1.33 / 3) (#13)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 01:47:38 PM EST

if you like

it is of course expect of an asshole with elitist inclinations like yourself to wall yourself off into an ivory tower, such that any challenges to your elist arrogance and vanity are to be interpretted only as the words of the stupid and noncomprehending masses

think of me as you like dude. i'm so sorry for challenging and criticizing the sensitive foundations of your sense of superiority

i'll go back to washing your clothes massa, like a good little underclass who doesn't comprehend your brilliance or the brilliance of your arbitrary heroes

(snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I really didn't bring any classism into it (none / 0) (#14)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 02:07:35 PM EST

You did. What does that say about you?

Also, you really didn't answer the question I raised about Shakespeare or anything like that. Your lame response was that you don't like Burroughs.

Nice.

Find me a nice labourer who just lervs his Sonnets and can expound away on them and you've proven me wrong. Somehow, I think people don't just pick them up and immediately 'get it'.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

classism: (2.00 / 2) (#16)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 02:15:07 PM EST

"The very nature of the book is to involve the reader at a level beyond that of the common novel, forcing them to choose between simply continuing to read on, or putting down the novel because they object to the idea of its ambiguous message on issues that were generally considered controversial at the time of its publishing. It should be noted that the issues at hand, homosexuality, drug addiction and the power of governments to do with common people as they will, are still very controversial and complicated subjects for most writers to adequately confront. Burroughs made this kind of confrontation his prized possession. With the added element of difficult format and brutally succinct language, couched within a specifically satirical structure, Naked Lunch stills maintains its place in the early 21st century as a "difficult" novel for many to read."

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Wow. You REALLY are an insecure bugger. (none / 0) (#17)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 02:23:48 PM EST

Notice the quotation marks? They refer to how many people have described the book. They are ironic.

Y'know why?

Because the book IS hard to read, as I can attest to and because I want people to read it. As many as possible. Rich poor, black, white. Make the list of readers as broad and politically correct as possible. I think it's a book that has something to say and that people's perceptions of it as a book that is unreadable, as many people have called it, are incorrect.

So, to answer your bizarre version fo what I wrote, I say bring down any such walls of classism. However, the language is still difficult and it takes tie to get it.

Just because you miss something and then ignore the clarification I provide does not make you correct. Face it: you made a bad argument and then shot yourself i th foot with the idiotic idea that a book should be immediatley readable and understandable.

Nice idea. IKEA instructions aren't even that simple.

You Have Lost. You Failed At Reading This Essay. Have A Nice And Comfortable Day.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

got it (none / 1) (#19)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 02:48:22 PM EST

the book is hard to read, as you say in your own words

therefore, it appeals to everyone

wtf?!


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Your comprehension issues are going to (none / 1) (#22)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 03:48:13 PM EST

be a problem when editing your movie, I fear.

The book is hard to read. It is worth reading. Many people will not enjoy it, but they might if they gave it a try.

Kind of like Filipino Horror Movies.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

die elitist scum (1.50 / 2) (#29)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:03:32 PM EST

nobody wants to read burroughs crap because he 'plays with language' as you say. who gives a flying fuck! is it entertaining? no! it's boring! unpenetrable!

and it has nothing to with his oh so fascinating take on morality. don't give us that red herring. his morals or lack thereof? who cares! murder, drug use- so the fuck what! i don't reject burroughs because he flaunts traditional social mores, i reject burroughs because it's BORING ELITIST CRAP. SNORE.

i read an article once about an ultramarathoner. a guy who runs and runs and runs... falling asleep, running. 250K over the course of 2-3 days, straight. he also said, like you, that it was very rewarding once you got into it, and that your common man can appreciate it

I DON'T FUCKING THINK SO

don't mistake your esoteric subculture as something instructive to the common man. you've developed a bizarre highly derived attraction for burroughs. good for you! and the ten other people on the planet who appreciate that 'Burroughs' war against language was ironic, though, as he used the very language he sought to destroy in his attempt to develop his arsenal.'

WHAT??????

just shut the fuck up you elitist scum. you obviously have a passion for burroughs. WHO CARES

and as for low culture, high culture, horror movies, and insane cults of personality, i remembered this i had recently read about brian de palma, you should read it. it basically portrays fanatical high culture obsession with de palma as what it is: retarded, just like your useless fascination with burroughs. i think of you just like i think of retarded de palma fanboys, a retarded subculture who think are oh so important. you're a partisan. die you useless partisan. notice the part i bolded:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/17/movies/17scot.html?ei=5088&en=a7de23ac5e35 d866&ex=1316145600&adxnnl=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1 161376984-V7qSLNwMU1inVaWQ/JfpBw

September 17, 2006
Say `Brian De Palma.' Let the Fighting Start.
By A. O. SCOTT
IF you ever want to start a fight in a room full of film critics -- and honestly, who doesn't? -- you might bring up Brian De Palma's "Mission to Mars." Released in the spring of 2000, the film is an unusually somber space adventure starring Gary Sinise, Connie Nielsen and Tim Robbins as members of a crew of astronauts encountering danger and mystery on the surface of the red planet.

At first glance it does not seem to be the kind of picture that would incite ferocious controversy, since it contains no sexual provocation, little in the way of graphic violence and few obvious gestures toward topical relevance. A disappointment at the box office, it nonetheless stirred up unusually fierce sentiments among reviewers, or at least among its defenders, who used their regard for the movie as a cudgel against some of their colleagues.

"It can be said with certainty," Armond White wrote in the weekly New York Press, that anyone panning "Mission to Mars" "does not understand movies, let alone like them." Charles Taylor in the online magazine Salon, revisiting the movie on the occasion of its release on DVD later that year, sounded a similar note when he declared that "a critic who does not recognize the visual rhapsody" of the film ``is about as trustworthy as a blind dance critic."

This kind of language arises with arresting frequency in discussions of Mr. De Palma's work. Almost from the beginning -- certainly since he began to receive wide attention with the lurid, unnerving and strangely comical horror thrillers "Carrie" (1976), "The Fury" (1978) and "Dressed to Kill" (1980) -- his name has been a critical fighting word. Sometimes the arguments fasten on a particular theme or issue: the sexual violence in "Casualties of War" (1989), for instance, or the general violence, extreme for its time, in "Scarface" (1983). But more often the combativeness of Mr. De Palma's committed admirers reveals more about the nature of cinephilic ardor than it does about the filmmaker himself. Rock stars have fans; opera singers have worshipers; but movie directors have partisans. Liking a given director's movies can feel like a matter of principle, not of taste; failing to appreciate them is therefore evidence of cretinism or, at best, a serious moral and intellectual deficiency.

Last month, in anticipation of the release of Mr. De Palma's new movie, "The Black Dahlia" (which opened on Friday and which stars Josh Hartnett, Scarlett Johansson, Aaron Eckhart and Hilary Swank), the online magazine Slant, a repository of passionate and often prickly pop-cultural analysis, began publishing a series of essays on this director's oeuvre. Many of those articles -- new ones continue to appear at slantmagazine.com/film/features/briandepalma.asp -- are packed with insights and ideas. They are also noisy with the din of gauntlets clattering to the ground.

Introducing the De Palma package -- called "Auteur Fatale," a play on the title of his 2002 film, "Femme Fatale" -- the critic Eric Henderson tosses down a bucketful, construing Mr. De Palma's career as a series of face-offs with his uncomprehending and uptight detractors.

"Perpetually a crucible to critics who liked only the most tasteful dash of sensualism mixed in with their rigid formalism," Mr. Henderson writes, without naming names, "the release of each new De Palma film would inevitably bring forth offended defenses of sacrosanct cinematic aridity, and that was only if he got off easy." More than that, it seems that his movies have served as a direct riposte to such critical bluestockings: "De Palma's oeuvre owes at least some part of its brash vitality to the destructivism his critics sparked in the director's bruised ego," Mr. Henderson writes.

Whether or not this is true -- and I'm not sure it does Mr. De Palma much of a favor to suppose that his creative potency springs from a vendetta against journalists -- Mr. Henderson is hardly alone in taking a defiant, oppositional stance in the director's defense. The tepid early reviews of "The Black Dahlia," a tangled period noir based on James Ellroy's novel about a famous 1947 murder case, may be an incitement to further polemics.

But who (or what, since the "critics" who are always imagined to be ganging up on Mr. De Palma are rarely specified or quoted) is being opposed? And in the name of what?

It depends on whom -- and when -- you ask. Like a number of other American directors, including Robert Altman, Martin Scorsese and Jonathan Demme, who came into their own in the 1970's and early 80's, Mr. De Palma, who turned 66 last week, found an important champion in Pauline Kael. Her long, enthusiastic New Yorker reviews of "Carrie," "The Fury" and "Dressed to Kill" were not only appreciations of his technical skill and sadistic sense of mischief, but also important installments in her long-running polemic against what she took to be a stuffy, condescending way of looking at -- or refusing to look at -- movies. In many ways Mr. De Palma's supremely artful approach to horror movies and slasher films was ideally suited to Ms. Kael's aesthetic commitment to finding exaltation in entertainments too easily dismissed as trash.

In the "Carrie" review, the words trashiness, tawdriness, candy and schlock appear in the space of a few sentences, and none of them are used disapprovingly. They signal how much fun the movie is, and also that the fun is not mindless but knowing. In Ms. Kael's account, which remains one of her most persuasive reviews, "Carrie" is at once terrifying and funny, satirical and heartfelt, exploitative and implicitly critical of the machinery of exploitation. It draws promiscuously on the movies of the past -- in addition to Hitchcock, Ms. Kael invokes Buñuel, "Splendor in the Grass," "The Bride of Frankenstein" and "The Wizard of Oz" -- to arrive at something lively and new.

To put it another way, the movies that secured Mr. De Palma his critical following (which has not, it should be noted, been limited to Ms. Kael's followers) exhibited many of the attributes of what people would eventually call postmodernism: a cool, ironic affect; the overt pastiche of work from the past; the insouciant mixture of high and low styles. They were also -- sometimes playfully, sometimes vertiginously -- self-conscious, making you aware of the psychological manipulations inherent in cinema even as they manipulated your own responses with sadistic glee.

Voyeurism, surveillance, the deceitful nature of appearances and the unstable nature of reality: these have been preoccupations of Mr. De Palma's from the start, so much so that he has sometimes seemed to parody himself. Peeping Toms, mysterious doubles, evil twins, mirrors, video cameras, film clips, tape recordings -- all are predictable elements of a De Palma movie.

When too many of them are missing, admirers can find themselves disappointed. Ms. Kael's review of "Scarface," for example, was published in The New Yorker under the heading "A De Palma Movie for People Who Don't Like De Palma Movies." That the advertisements for "The Black Dahlia" promise a new film "from the director of `Scarface' and `The Untouchables' " is likely to frustrate true believers, since those two movies, maybe his best known, are also in many ways his least characteristic.

Over all, though, he has remained remarkably consistent. The teasing shock of "Sisters" (1973), with its murderous twins, resurfaces in the underappreciated "Raising Cain" (1992), just as the uncanniness of "Obsession" finds an echo in "Femme Fatale." ("The Black Dahlia," though a rare period piece, is nonetheless loaded with the director's usual themes and visual hallmarks, from the mysterious doubles to the films-within-the-film to the vulnerable and monstrous femmes fatales.) But if he has not changed, his partisans -- or at least the terms of their partisanship -- have.

Ms. Kael's celebration of trash has given way to the defense of art. Mr. De Palma, customarily associated with Hitchcock, Dario Argento and other masters of the movie Gothic, is now frequently placed in the company of cinema philosophes like Jean-Luc Godard and Chris Marker. No longer the playful postmodernist, he is now, in the eyes of his admirers, something of a classicist, his critical enemies not high-minded squares but soulless philistines.

In his brief for "Mission to Mars," Mr. Taylor of Salon claimed that "more than any filmmaker now working, De Palma communicates his meanings almost entirely in visual terms." The hyperbole in this statement -- more than any filmmaker? Steven Spielberg? Wong Kar-wai? -- indicates that he sees something at stake beyond the merits of a particular film or filmmaker, namely the continued appreciation of film as a visual medium.

In other words, if you find yourself attending, as professional critics and everyday moviegoers often will, to things like the psychology of characters, the coherence of plot or the plausibility of dialogue, you are missing not only the point, but also the art. And if critics, the presumed protectors of the art, are dismissive of its purest expression, then there is reason to worry, and maybe also to fight.

Even though Mr. De Palma's detractors are accused of formalism, what elicits rapture from his admirers is in the end nothing other than his formal command. Even in his weakest movies there are moments of intense visual pleasure, in which he moves the camera with the elegant, arrogant virtuosity of a pianist tackling a treacherous passage of Liszt. "The Bonfire of the Vanities," for instance, can be a chore to sit through -- as it was, notoriously, a nightmare to make -- but the opening shot, which follows a drunken Bruce Willis on his meandering course from an underground garage, up stairs and elevators, through one change of clothes and several female companions, and into a faceful of poached salmon -- well, it will take your breath away, as describing it just did mine.

And Mr. De Palma specializes in choreographing extended set pieces that are variously breathless, breathtaking, heart-stopping and nerve-racking. Even a De Palma dilettante will single out favorites, while the more scholarly will arrange them in motifs. He has, for example, an evident affinity for elevators and stairwells, and for traveling shots in which his camera moves vertically and laterally as if borne aloft by birds or balloons.

He had the nerve to recreate the baby carriage-on-the-stairs sequence from Eisenstein's "Battleship Potemkin," in "The Untouchables" (1987). But that scene, in Mr. De Palma's oeuvre, is just one variation on a theme, part of an anthology that includes the long, intricate chase and shootout in Grand Central Terminal at the climax of "Carlito's Way" and, most recently, a suite of killings on a marble staircase that forms the centerpiece of "The Black Dahlia."

Anyone familiar with Mr. De Palma's work can compile a catalog of marvels, and there seems to be at least one in every picture. (Even "Mission to Mars" skeptics will smile at the image of Mr. Robbins and Ms. Nielsen dancing in zero gravity to Van Halen). But are such moments enough? That, it seems to me, is a case-by-case question of taste, and thus not really a matter for sweeping, all-or-nothing arguments.

In other words, you can like movies just fine and still not like "Mission to Mars." But behind such combative assertions is a very real worry: that the possibility of recognizing and relishing such moments, and of appreciating the unique visual power of film, is at risk in a culture saturated with cheap, flashy, corrupting images, few of them worthy of a second look. Which is something Mr. De Palma's films always demand and frequently reward.

"In other words, if you find yourself attending, as professional critics and everyday moviegoers often will, to things like the psychology of characters, the coherence of plot or the plausibility of dialogue, you are missing not only the point, but also the art. And if critics, the presumed protectors of the art, are dismissive of its purest expression, then there is reason to worry, and maybe also to fight."

compared to:

"Because Naked Lunch is an expression system, the vehicle designed to deliver the message that will become an ongoing mantra, a continuous death knell for language and words, it introduced a new way of telling stories meant to be guideposts for the reader. At the end of Naked Lunch is the famous line that Burroughs wrote about releasing his Word Hoard, virtually unleashing a legion of his Words designed to kill the Word Virus that had invaded and taken over the minds of all humans everywhere. In much the same way a pharmaceutical is designed to combat an enemy virus, Naked Lunch was designed to combat the conservative Western ideas that proliferated throughout the Western world at the time of the book's writing."

dude: if this fuck burroughs can't write something coherent, it's NOT USEFUL TO THE AVERAGE MAN. yes, partisans like you will scream otherwise. WHO CARES, YOU'RE JUST A FANATIC. just like with those who voraciously defend de palma from the deamns fo things like plot and chacter development. IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT YOU DON'T HAVE SHIT

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Best part of the last run on crap: (none / 1) (#43)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:57:14 PM EST

"unpenetrable"

ROR!!!!!!

Also, Brian DePalma is utter and total crap. That's why he only knows how to do one moive in one colour: neon Blue with guns.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

de palma IS crap (none / 1) (#55)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:13:21 PM EST

so why are trying to foist burroughs and his crap on us as some sort of gold, when it is obviously just vomit?

weave furiously in the air now turd, make sure you convince us that something is there that isn't, and if we deny something exists you say is there, then make sure to say:

  1. i haven't read it
  2. i can't understand it
  3. i'm not trying
  4. i'm stupid

or a number of other acts of denial that diverts us form the simple truth:

YOU'RE NOT WEARING ANY CLOTHES

YOU THINK YOU ARE

BUT YOU ARE NAKED

now eat your humble pie lunch

and admit your language virus crap is just stupid rambling bullshit


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Answer me this: (none / 0) (#61)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:27:33 PM EST

  1. Did you read it?
  2. Did you understand it?
  3. Did you try to?
  4. Are you as stupid as you seem?

I feel I should be answered.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

i skimmed it (none / 1) (#63)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:37:34 PM EST

it was crap

based on that, i'm certain you will eviscerate me

likewise, another fanatic might eviscerate me for not just skimming the bible. and that therefore, i have no basis to find a lot of what is said in the bible wrong

so you have a nice little closed system there turd: unless i haven't absorbed every nuance like you have, my opinion isn't as valid as yours

silly me, i thought that when i see shit, i don't have to rub my face in it to appreciate that it is still shit

but i suppose if you rub your face in shit long enough, it begins to smell like roses

lord knows you're living proof of that


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

ROR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (none / 1) (#78)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:18:07 PM EST

Thanks for proving my point.

Anything else the huddled masses need your help with that you never bothered to read/think about/do?

This troll was excellent. If I didn't know you were trolling from your first comment, I'd have really been sucked in. That's the best part.

But, since you are an elitist and a racist who feels he needs to make ethnically selective movies, I can only surmise that you voted for Bush twice, you'd never marry outside your race and that you never stray from the small little enclave of Philipinos in NYC that comprise this street to that street.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

ROTFLOLWTFBBQ!!! (none / 0) (#93)
by dissonant on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:31:52 PM EST

...could you please, PLEASE, read that post out loud to yourself, minus the first and last sentence,  while looking in the mirror.  If you take that HDV camera you're using for the movie and post a link,   I might even pay to see it...

[ Parent ]
glad i could entertain (none / 0) (#96)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:35:58 PM EST

if you're female and have nice tits maybe i'll do the camera show for you

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Just art, or all things? (none / 1) (#20)
by thefirelane on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 03:02:01 PM EST

if a work is not immediately understandable to the common man, as you say so a number of times above, it isn't valuable

I'm curious, do you mean only in art? What about math/physics? I would argue that most valuable physics/math is not immediately understandable.

Even if you only mean art... does it have to be fully understandable immediately? What about layered artwork? Do you strive to make your films 'immediately understandable'... or something people will like initially, and appreciate more over time?

-
Prube.com: Like K5, but with less point.
[ Parent ]
physics is objective, art is subjective (2.00 / 2) (#21)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 03:10:24 PM EST

therefore, in physics there is truth and not truth, regardless of how many people understand it or not

but in art, truth is democratic: what enough people believe is truth, becomes truth

artist xyz is important because enough people believe him to be so. he's not important based on some universal arbiter of taste, such a thing doesn't exist

the only only universal arbite rof taste for humanity, is humanity itself

and so that's the problem with elitism: they imagine themselves aesthetically superior to the masses

they are not, they are just vain and arrogant about their tastes

but i thought this whole problem was dealth with in the 1970s, when "low" culture finally defeated "high" culture as the standard of taste

but apparently i am wrong, and some aristocrats are holding out, or new educated types have forgotten the lessons learned in the 1970s, and imagine there can be a subculture that are the arbiters of artistic truth. but they aren't educated. because there is no such thing as education in art. in physics, yes, there can be objective education about the truth of matters. but for art, education doesn't exist, or rather, what is called education is really just indoctrination into an agenda and worldview

classist elitism reborn


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

What about Propaganda? (none / 0) (#24)
by thefirelane on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 04:00:42 PM EST

Propaganda is designed to be immediately understandable by as many people as possible. Would you then describe it as 'better' or 'more valuable' than other works of art?

-
Prube.com: Like K5, but with less point.
[ Parent ]
propaganda is half truth (none / 0) (#27)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 04:41:37 PM EST

it's designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator

but what's your point? propaganda is not art! totally different subject matter, no?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

propaganda is not art? (none / 0) (#28)
by thefirelane on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 04:55:00 PM EST

I see, but this is starting to not make sense...

You can have propagandistic movies, the Nazis did all the time. So you are trying to work around that by saying that "propaganda is not art". So instead of being elitist and saying what is "good art" and what is "bad art"... you are moving the line and just deciding you can say what "is art" and what "isn't art".

It appears you are accepting objectivity in art only where it is convenient to your argument.

To paraphrase you original statements: if propaganda is considered art by people, is it not therefore art?

-
Prube.com: Like K5, but with less point.
[ Parent ]
propaganda overlaps with art (2.00 / 2) (#30)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:08:35 PM EST

it uses the same devices, but has not the same goal. the goal of art is many things, mostly to entertain. but the goal of propaganda is specific: to indoctrination into an ideology

your argument seems to depend upon art and propaganda being one and the same, when they are not. propaganda can be very crafty, and can be appreciated and looked at solely on its artistic merits, but this is consciously closing your mind off from its obvious intent

in other words, you are attempting to critique propaganda solely in terms of its artisitc qualities, when you know as well as i do that that isn't the whole story about what propaganda is. therefore, your analysis is flawed, as you purposefully ignore the whole of what propaganda is when you examine it in only its artistic terms


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Ok, then moving along the scale... (none / 0) (#34)
by thefirelane on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:41:47 PM EST

to indoctrination into an ideology

Then where does religious art fall? The Sistine chapel and other great works of art are just that, but also served the purpose of putting the fear of God in people, literally.

The problem is this: all art is an attempt the artist to convey a meaning or statement. Propaganda just happens to be a statement the government wants you to hear, so it endorses it.

I think I'm having difficulty accepting your premise of "good art is whatever people think it is" without also accepting the premise that "art is whatever people think it is".... Wouldn't you agree there is a problem there?

-
Prube.com: Like K5, but with less point.
[ Parent ]
both questions can be answered (none / 1) (#54)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:08:58 PM EST

it is whatever the masses say it is. if they say it is art, it is art. if they say it is good/ bad, it is good/ bad. end of story

i don't understand your line of reasoning or why you think it counteracts anything i am saying. you seem to be expanding on the subject matter, for what purpose i don't understand

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

My point (none / 0) (#68)
by thefirelane on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:03:18 PM EST

you seem to be expanding on the subject matter, for what purpose i don't understand

My point of including propaganda, is because that most completely meets your requirements of being easily and fully understandable as well as popular.

However, I would not say that Nazi propaganda is a higher art than a Picasso. And I don't think 30's era Germans who thought so were being 'elitist'.

I'm not sure where in your definition is the room for art which leads... art which is ahead of its time. At first there are some elitists which enjoy a work, and that filters down. Are you saying a Picasso painting is not art, but becomes art only after a certain threshold likes it? You could perhaps argue so, but I don't know if I think it changes based solely on what people think about it, it is what it is.

-
Prube.com: Like K5, but with less point.
[ Parent ]
Trust me, buddy, he has not (none / 0) (#76)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:13:35 PM EST

thought this through. He's 17/35, he doesn't read and he takes his lines from Youtube. His line of reasoning is so funny that I can't resist. I want to start multiple threads to show the "masses", that illusionary group of people who could neve afford to live in NYC, just how funny he is.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

art that leads? (none / 1) (#80)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:25:18 PM EST

it doesn't exist

or rather, it exists, but no one knows what it is, until it is at the head of the mainstream

in other words, there are thousands of people innovating right now in new and interesting directions in art. which direction will the zeitgeist follow?

no one knows

and beware those who say they do know. they usually know even less, and aren't involved with innovation in the least, but are part of a clique, a subculture, that pretends it knows better than you or me out of arrogance and vanity and hubris

fuck the self-appointed elites

burn them in hell


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

That's my point... (none / 0) (#81)
by thefirelane on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:35:28 PM EST

new and interesting directions in art

But that's my point... under your definition, it isn't art.

I don't see how you address my two points:

1) Is something art when it is made, or does it become art only after people like it?
2) Who first likes the "proto-art"... and what would you call people who consistently likes these things before they are popular? Are you telling me there are no people who consistently recognize this before it becomes popular?

-
Prube.com: Like K5, but with less point.
[ Parent ]
actually, yeah, 100% (none / 1) (#82)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:41:22 PM EST

it's not art until the masses say so

"Are you telling me there are no people who consistently recognize this before it becomes popular?"

yes

art enters the mainstream from all sorts of directions


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Dumbass (none / 1) (#84)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:48:42 PM EST

People don't accept it until it appears in the NFL half-time show and you know it. What a stupid dick you are.

Face it, your Utopian ideal isn't real and the "masses", that wonderful unquantifiable entity does not exist, you racist, elitist asshole.

Stop trying to pigeon-hole people and accept the fact that art is not appealing to everyone and some things are appealing to others that are not appealing to most.

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Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

The Lowest Common Denominator? (none / 0) (#40)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:54:31 PM EST

Elitist, classit, hack.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

ah! you understand the concept! (none / 1) (#50)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:02:11 PM EST

now can you apply it to yourself?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
You see, the problem is, as I've explained (none / 1) (#57)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:20:50 PM EST

I'm not elitist and you are.

You take a few sentences that have been explained to you as a misreading because you seem to fail to grasp the concept of the quotation mark, and then try your bestn to show that they are elitist.

Now, I'm not saying I don't admire this troll. It's never-ending and tireless and that should be commended. The problem is that you're clearly a racist and an elitist and you have said so many times throughout this conversation, so I have only one question:

Does your not liking the book still allow for others to like it? Or, are you simply the slant-eyes god of this universe and we need to bow to your autocratic cock?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

i champion the masses (none / 1) (#64)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:38:16 PM EST

so i'm an elitist

got it


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

No, you claim to speak for people (none / 1) (#74)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:11:05 PM EST

that think you have a small cock and no education. They told me this.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Wrong dIpshit. (1.50 / 2) (#151)
by timy peices on Mon Oct 23, 2006 at 09:59:59 AM EST

Phyisics is subjective too. Read a fucking book you stupid cock. Ever hear of Niels Bohr? No? Too fucking stupid to understand quantum mechanics? Thought so.
FUCK YOU, YOU FUCKING FUCK
[ Parent ]
Don't Be Mistaken (none / 1) (#23)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 03:51:33 PM EST

He's not sure what he means and his argument falls apart after you include an example. You'll notice that he hasn't.

Mostly, he's hinting at the idea that people should not make airs and try to be different. That's elitist and classist.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

no (1.50 / 2) (#32)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:28:34 PM EST

there is nothing wrong with being different

there is everything wrong with completely disregarding basic concepts inherent with communication

allegory: there is nothing wrong with inventing a new form of dance. but there is everything wrong with sitting there, doing nothing, and calling it dance

burroughs suffers form the same sort of high minded bullshit that affects some modern art: you draw a fucking triangle on a canvas, and call it a "postmodern expressionistic reinterpration of the dogma of spacial divisions".

wtf?

no it's not, it's just a fucking triangle. and now you: "Only through his use of language could he disentangle the web that all words have the ability to create. It was fighting fire with fire, and through the medium that culminated to become Naked Lunch, he launched a career of constant battle against words and their constraints."

uh huh. in other words he vomitted on a manuscript page and told you it was gold, and you believed it

see your problem can basically be boiled down the fable of "the emperor's new clothes"

i'll leave it to your exalted genius to figure out what i am alluding to that fable. you think messing with basic communication is supposed to be genius. it's just fucking stupid and useless

...but we can always depend upon some elitist snob fool like yourself to consider it genius

it ain't, fucktard, it's CRAP

and you are walking around naked in town, the proud king with your conmen in attendance, thinking you're wearing the finest clothes ever made

i'm the fucking kid in the crowd pointing and laughing and saying "you're naked you moron"

so wake the fuck up you elitist turd


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Wow, well done. Should I sum up for you? (none / 0) (#38)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:51:40 PM EST

cts: I didn't get the 4 pages I read, so it sucks.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

close (none / 1) (#42)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:55:08 PM EST

"The boy is right! The Emperor is naked! It's true!"

      The Emperor realized that the people were right but could not admit to that. He though it better to continue the procession under the illusion that anyone who couldn't see his clothes was either stupid or incompetent. And he stood stiffly on his carriage, while behind him a page held his imaginary mantle.

http://deoxy.org/emperors.htm

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I'll give you this: (3.00 / 2) (#46)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:00:36 PM EST

if you're little boy is representative of a room full of Star Trek fanatics, comic book fans and sports addicts, you may be right.

In basically all other cases, I am writing an essay and you are over-reacting at a furious rate.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

i'm sorry that the masses exist, elitist scum (1.00 / 2) (#48)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:01:38 PM EST

and i am already well aware of your hatred of the common man and his opinions, you don't need to educate me on that

smooches

xoxooxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

If you speak for the common man and the masses (none / 0) (#60)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:25:57 PM EST

could you provide an answer for world peace and massive poverty around the world?

Your masses are waiting.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

sure, no problem (none / 1) (#69)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:03:21 PM EST

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
But, as an elitist racist, you couldn't possibly (none / 1) (#73)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:10:13 PM EST

believe all that. I mean, if that were all the answer, you'd never have lived in the States, that Giant Mother Ship of the Philipinos that 50% hate and 50% love, would you?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

No literary work is immediately understandable (none / 1) (#25)
by MrHanky on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 04:10:15 PM EST

First, you need to know the language. To know the language, you need to know not only the meaning of the words, but also a whole bunch of cultural codes. To understand a generic Hollywood movie, you need to know the Hollywood genre conventions, of which there are plenty. Your whole argument is just that one man should not try to understand more than The Abstract Average Person. For each elitist snob that follows your advice, TAAP will become more stupid, eventually leading to a world where everyone thinks like you. I can't see how that's any less authoritarian than any aristocracy.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]
my argument is authoritarian, you're right (1.33 / 3) (#31)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:17:54 PM EST

it is the authority of the masses over themselves, as opposed to aristocracy, which is the authority of a select few based on indoctrination into an ideology, possession of money, or military might, over the masses

so yes, i am proposing a form of authoritarianism after all: the authority of the masses over themselves

thank you for correcting my terminology and refining my position to a more perfect statement

furthermore:

"For each elitist snob that follows your advice, TAAP will become more stupid, eventually leading to a world where everyone thinks like you."

i am arguming for the point of view of common human nature. which is the same across all cultures, which is the same across all time periods. there is no getting dumber than that. there is no getting smarter than that. it just is. there isn't a tyranny of the present or in a given culture in what i am saying. there is merely the tyranny of the commonalities of what makes us human. and that's not really "tyranny" at all

look at shakespeare. his stories are comprehensible today to high school football players. and also comprehensible to masaii tribespeople. why? because the genius of shakespeare had nothing to do with elizebethan england, or even being english. it had to do with being human, the struggles innate to every human being, comprehensible to the difficulties every human being has sturggled with in every culture form the dawn of time

now you know what i am really talking about. i'm not arguing for the "dumbing down" anything

and you still apparently subscribe to the discarded notion that the elites are supposed to have anything to teach the masses at all. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO TEACH US, EVER


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I loved this part: (none / 0) (#36)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:50:15 PM EST

"look at shakespeare. his stories are comprehensible today to high school football players. and also comprehensible to masaii tribespeople. why? because the genius of shakespeare had nothing to do with elizebethan england, or even being english."

ROR!!!!

Have you read Shakespeare? A masaii tribesman would make no sense whatsoever of most of the plays. A Winter's Tale, for example.

Sorry, pally, your broad strokes are not creating a masterpiece here.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

zzz (none / 0) (#47)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:00:37 PM EST

http://pages.unibas.ch/shine/translators.htm

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Good point, cts. (none / 1) (#49)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:01:53 PM EST

Do you think the masii tribesmen have wireless or do they use dial-up?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

i think they are human beings (1.00 / 2) (#51)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:03:24 PM EST

who can appreciate universal human truths and dramas presented in good stories

any other questions you ivory tower turd?

or are you too busy with your language viruses?

(!?)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Please provide a list of (none / 0) (#59)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:24:27 PM EST

books containing Universal Human Truths. They are not selling these particular books in the Ivory Tower right now.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

go visit a list (none / 1) (#67)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:55:05 PM EST

of the most translated books

or a list of the highest grossing movies worldwide

the people have spoken


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Very nice. (none / 0) (#72)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:08:34 PM EST

Titanic is something I hope my generation will be remembered by.

Are you this dumb because you and your folks like kareoke?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

That's karaoke, OK? [nt] (3.00 / 2) (#134)
by BJH on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 09:11:06 PM EST


--
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

[ Parent ]
You're imagining things (3.00 / 2) (#41)
by MrHanky on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:54:54 PM EST

No one demands that everyone should like Naked Lunch. Those who do like it, or find it interesting, can discuss it, in order to understand it better. You're not defending the masses, you're defending stupidity. Also, your point of view is on the lunatic fringe of ethnocentricity, it's not "the point of view of common human nature".

And what you say about Shakespeare is simply bollocks. King Lear's struggles have nothing in common with mine; he was a senile and vain old fool who lost his goddamn country to his evil daughters. How the fuck is that supposed to be common to all people of all time? I think your opinion on Shakespeare is taken from Star Trek, another piece of ethnocentric garbage that claims universality. Also, Shakespeare's brilliance was hardly in his stories: He didn't come up with any of them himself.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]

I think the main point is this: (none / 0) (#44)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:58:33 PM EST

he's never read either Shakespeare or Burroughs.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

yeah, deny me my credentials (none / 1) (#53)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:06:14 PM EST

just like an elitist

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Well it would be hard to argue the merits when you (none / 1) (#58)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:23:15 PM EST

didn't read any of it, wouldn't you?

Don't you think a Winter's Tale would not translate well for the masaii?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

that's right (none / 1) (#62)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:33:47 PM EST

i don't see the clothes that you're wearing emperor, so i'm blind, right?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Have you read them? (none / 0) (#71)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:07:28 PM EST


----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

He's right, though (none / 1) (#90)
by MrHanky on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:06:25 PM EST

No one who's read Shakespeare would claim that he wrote "universal human truths and dramas presented in good stories". You know why? Because he didn't write stories.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]
you heard it on k5 (none / 0) (#95)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:34:42 PM EST

shakespeare didn't write stories


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Correct (none / 0) (#99)
by MrHanky on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 10:00:06 PM EST

FYI, story n.
narrative: a message that tells the particulars of an act or occurrence or course of events; presented in writing or drama or cinema or as a radio or television program; "his narrative was interesting"; "Disney's stories entertain adults as well as children"
a piece of fiction that narrates a chain of related events; "he writes stories for the magazines"
The word you should look for here is narration. Shakespeare's dramas contain little or no narration, the story is an interpretation by the reader or presented by actors. Shakespeare's plays consist mostly of dialogue. Yes, they are plays, not novels.

Also, they are fairly difficult to read, which is why they are so far from the mass culture you pretend they belong to.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]

oh, thank you for the semantics (none / 0) (#100)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 10:07:32 PM EST

now strut around like you think you actually said anything

oh i'm sorry, i wrote "said"

as we know you can't "say" things on teh intarweb

i meant "wrote"

oh no wait, i used the word "wrote"

as we know you don't actually "write" on teh intarweb, you encapsulate binary representations of alphanumeric characters into http packets

are we clear now?

(snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Hey, you're the one with the circular reasoning (none / 0) (#103)
by MrHanky on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 10:22:46 PM EST

I'm just presenting facts.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]
there's facts (1.50 / 2) (#104)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 10:25:18 PM EST

then there's snarky legalistic posturing

i don't think you've presented any facts

but if it makes you happy to you think you've did, then you've totally obliterated everything i've ever said with your heroic hardboiled exposure of the real truth of the matter

i stand so humbled

(snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You should feel comfortable (none / 0) (#146)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 08:36:42 PM EST

You don't rely on facts, either.

Like the females, you rely on emotions.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

actually, star trek is another good one (none / 1) (#45)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:59:29 PM EST

and seeing that, it, like shakespeare, has been embraced the world over, i'll consider that fact a comment on its universality far superior to what your opinion is. how does that sound to you?

i am adhering to what the masses say. all else is void of truth, value, or interest. and you call that ethnocentricity. well the "ethnocentricity" here is the opinion of the entire world's people. so you are right about what you say about me. except that your definition of what ethnocentric is a tad off, no? ;-P

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

LOL, yah rite (none / 1) (#87)
by MrHanky on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 08:34:15 PM EST

The whole world consists of Star Trek fans. It's a show for nerds using pocket protectors and calculator watches. Sure there are plenty of them out there, and I'm sure that's the kind of people you find your universal humanity in, but it really is a fringe, albeit a rather large one in some historical periods. For instance at the time when NASA sent people to the moon. And even then, the original series were cancelled because of poor ratings.

But hey, you're free to define "the masses" as trekkies, if that's what you want. Just like Mao and Stalin trusted the masses, as long as they were their masses.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]

i'm talking about the popularity of an idea (none / 1) (#94)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:34:09 PM EST

go to buenos aires, lagos, jakarta, moscow, tokyo, etc.

ask about star trek

the fact that so many have heard about it should tell you something


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Yes (none / 0) (#102)
by MrHanky on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 10:20:09 PM EST

That it's widely available in languages that people understand. Ask them about a work that presents the exact same ideas in Estonian, and they won't have heard of it. This is, of course, because Estonian is such a piss-poor language, and English is accepted by the masses since it's so great.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]
huh? wha? (1.50 / 2) (#105)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 10:26:49 PM EST

i think you've changed the subject matter

"english is teh ghey" maybe ba great subject for you, but i'm uninterested, and it has nothing to do with this subject

have fun tho!

xoxoxoxoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I apologize for your lack of reading ability (none / 0) (#107)
by MrHanky on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 10:35:21 PM EST

I was writing about the wide availability of Star Trek (and Shakespeare) as a result of language, which, from your logic, would result in most other languages being poorer because of lack of popular support.

If it doesn't, your theory that 'mass consumption == quality' is wrong. Which it is.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]

mass consumption = quality (1.50 / 2) (#108)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 10:43:15 PM EST

that it is english that it is consumed in is a completely unrelated subject

you're saying it's unfair that english has rose to become the de facto standard of communication for the world, and that this has amplified english based cultural offerings on the world stage

entirely true

but that doesn't change reality. in other words, yes: star trek and shakespeare have become exposed through unfair means, but that doesn't changed the fact they have become exposed, period

how fair or unfair that exposure has become arrived at it is besides the point, they are exposed

it's not fair. you're right. but who said that it should be fair? i didn't know that was requirement in art


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

WTF are you on about? (none / 1) (#109)
by MrHanky on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 10:50:22 PM EST

I haven't written a word about fairness or justice.

I'm saying that by your logic, Anglo-American language and culture are superior to all others. I don't care whether it's fair or unfair, I'm only saying that your thinking leads to absurd results. It's because you're wrong, not because the world is unfair. I'm just picking apart the basic premises for your reasoning here, it's not like it's a big deal.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]

anglo-american language isn't superior (none / 1) (#110)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 11:54:17 PM EST

in fact, english is a pretty crappy mangled language, hard to learn

but due to history, it got adapted as the de facto world standard. this means it therefore gets more exposure culturally

but where the fuck do you think i implied this makes it superior asswipe?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

It's implied from popular == good (none / 0) (#116)
by MrHanky on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 07:47:25 AM EST

Most of the films, TV shows, books, music, etc., that is popular around the world is in English, even disproportionally to the adoption of the language. Since popularity = quality, and Anglo-American ideas and language are most popular in mass culture --> Anglo-American = best.

Yes, who'da thunk it: Your universal human values are American by definition.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]

observation only applies to art retard (none / 0) (#125)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 12:46:01 PM EST

english isnt popular at all, its just evolved as the de facto standard due to historical reasons, not because volunteered and chose it, duh. people have to speak english if they are in business, diplomacy, etc. they dont have to watch star trek ever. get it now moron?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Neither will they have to read Estonian literature (none / 0) (#126)
by MrHanky on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 01:03:57 PM EST

And the chances are much bigger that they won't. Now, why is it that Star Trek is so much more popular than an entire country's collected works, the entire literary production in their language, through all times? Your claim is that Star Trek, since it has more mass appeal, is more valuable than the entire Estonian culture.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]
dude, try to keep the subjects separate (none / 0) (#127)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 01:17:01 PM EST

why we use english: involuntary historical reasons

why we watch star trek: we like it

we should be reading estonian? fine, i have no problem with that assertion, but the reason we don't read estonian is for reasons having nothing to do with what i am saying: what is popular is art, from the range of choices presented to us. the range of what is presented to us is warped by history? well obviously dipshit, but how does that dismantle my point? it doesn't ;-P

when presented with an apple or a banana, and everyone chooses a banana, that means something. you're pissed because they also didn't get to try the kiwi. well fine, but the boat never made it from new zealand on time

because the range of choices is limited by history means the range of choices is invalid? because they didn't get to try kiwi then the fact they like banana is invalid? pfffffft


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I've never said the choice was invalid (none / 0) (#128)
by MrHanky on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 01:46:15 PM EST

I'd say it's governed by other factors than quality. Since you say mass popularity is the same as quality (which I disagree with), I would guess you'd also agree to whatever follows logically from that. Since you don't, I can only conclude that you allow arbitrary exceptions to your rules whenever it suits you. When you allow for that, nothing can dismantle your point. But I can't see how the rules you make up as you go can be Universal Human Values.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]
"the rules you make up as you go" (none / 0) (#136)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 11:37:58 PM EST

what the hell are you talking about? i'm commenting on what is already reality

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Let'stry and include the reality (none / 1) (#139)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 09:09:27 AM EST

that all the other people who are not you are a part of, hmmm?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

i'm talking about all of humanity (none / 0) (#142)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 11:09:44 AM EST

the umma of all human beings, if you will

who am i not including in that as my baseline?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

YOU might be including everyone (none / 0) (#143)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 02:25:59 PM EST

However, you weak, non-fleshed out arguments seem to only include you. Mostly, since you generalize an entire planet into a Romantic ideal based on flawed thinking and silly notions of equality that a few select, rich people who don't have to deal with it enjoy.

Basically, you are the perfect bourgois thinker, lumping everyone in the planet into your small, little world. However, cocoa workers in Ivory Coast would both not care about NL and your stupid ideals as much as they would enjoy the possession of a good gun and large bank account.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

that's rather condescending you asshole (none / 0) (#144)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 08:13:37 PM EST

i think those ivory coast cocoa workers have an appreciation for culture, as well as a gun and a bank account, you ethnocentric jackass

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Really? (none / 0) (#145)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 08:29:59 PM EST

Because most of them are 6. Is that the median age for Shakespeare fans in West Africa, or is he still a favorite with the adults?

What I love is how much you DON'T know.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

sorry (none / 0) (#147)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 09:26:58 PM EST

i just noticed i wasn't talking to mrhanky anymore


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
in the current era it's superior (none / 0) (#135)
by Delirium on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 11:24:45 PM EST

Pretty much anything worth reading in the current era is written in English, or else quickly translated to it. This was once true of Latin, German, and French as well, in various periods.

[ Parent ]
I'm so glad... (none / 1) (#106)
by dissonant on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 10:34:14 PM EST

...we have you around to tell us the whole world's opinion.  Makes it so easy to stop thinking!

[ Parent ]
"Common man"? (2.60 / 5) (#115)
by Hung Three on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 07:37:39 AM EST

I think you overestimate the common man, who is continually at war with letters, and to whom every road sign read correctly is a battle won.

It would be a good idea to familiarise yourself with UNESCO statistics, and stop thinking you and your metro-eunuch friends represent the common man.

--
Behead those who insult Marx.
[ Parent ]

Do you think that the "common man" (2.50 / 2) (#129)
by shinshin on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 03:06:11 PM EST

is going to be seeing your "Low Budget HDV Filipino Horror Movie in NYC"?

Do you think he'll understand it?

____
We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons --Dick Cheney, Meet the Press, March 16, 2003
[ Parent ]

the meaning of egil's elitist bullshit (1.25 / 4) (#33)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:36:59 PM EST

Because Naked Lunch is an expression system, the vehicle designed to deliver the message that will become an ongoing mantra, a continuous death knell for language and words, it introduced a new way of telling stories meant to be guideposts for the reader. At the end of Naked Lunch is the famous line that Burroughs wrote about releasing his Word Hoard, virtually unleashing a legion of his Words designed to kill the Word Virus that had invaded and taken over the minds of all humans everywhere. In much the same way a pharmaceutical is designed to combat an enemy virus, Naked Lunch was designed to combat the conservative Western ideas that proliferated throughout the Western world at the time of the book's writing.

what? what the fuck is this bullshit?

her'es an alternative view: burroughs vomitted on a manuscript, and egil thought it was gold. this sort of elitist gullibility happens all the time, and we even have a fable about it:

The Emperor's New Clothes

"Your Majesty," the prime minister said, "we have a request for you. The people have found out about this extraordinary fabric and they are anxious to see you in your new suit." The Emperor was doubtful showing himself naked to the people, but then he abandoned his fears. After all, no one would know about it except the ignorant and the incompetent.

      "All right," he said. "I will grant the people this privilege." He summoned his carriage and the ceremonial parade was formed. A group of dignitaries walked at the very front of the procession and anxiously scrutinized the faces of the people in the street. All the people had gathered in the main square, pushing and shoving to get a better look. An applause welcomed the regal procession. Everyone wanted to know how stupid or incompetent his or her neighbor was but, as the Emperor passed, a strange murmur rose from the crowd.

      Everyone said, loud enough for the others to hear: "Look at the Emperor's new clothes. They're beautiful!"

      "What a marvellous train!"

      "And the colors! The colors of that beautiful fabric! I have never seen anything like it in my life!" They all tried to conceal their disappointment at not being able to see the clothes, and since nobody was willing to admit his own stupidity and incompetence, they all behaved as the two scoundrels had predicted.

      A child, however, who had no important job and could only see things as his eyes showed them to him, went up to the carriage.

      "The Emperor is naked," he said.

      "Fool!" his father reprimanded, running after him. "Don't talk nonsense!" He grabbed his child and took him away. But the boy's remark, which had been heard by the bystanders, was repeated over and over again until everyone cried:

      "The boy is right! The Emperor is naked! It's true!"

      The Emperor realized that the people were right but could not admit to that. He though it better to continue the procession under the illusion that anyone who couldn't see his clothes was either stupid or incompetent. And he stood stiffly on his carriage, while behind him a page held his imaginary mantle.

circletimessquare: "egil is naked"

naked lunch indeed

(snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Marvelous logic, as usual (none / 0) (#35)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:46:22 PM EST

I'm sure the movie will be faaaabulous!

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

my movie will suck, i'm an amateur (1.50 / 2) (#37)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:50:38 PM EST

but at least i'm trying

what are you doing, elitist turd?

The vaccination that Naked Lunch proposes is the forerunner to all of Burroughs later novels, and specifically the novels of the 1960's and 1970's. The race to eliminate language, and then take it back form those who would use it for nefarious purposes is still an idea in its infancy in Naked Lunch, drawing on his earlier work and realized in the letters he wrote home during his exile in Tangiers, but quickly evolving into a realized attack against morals that appear outmoded and literature that, in Burroughs estimation, could have been written by anyone. A totally different work form the writing he had done up until that point, Naked Lunch became the model for the rest of his career's work.

oh i see, YOU'RE WAVING YOUR HANDS AROUND IN THE AIR, AND CALLING IT CLOTHES

dude. WHAT THE FUCK. seriously: WHAT. THE. FUCK. ARE. YOU. BABBLING. ABOUT.

strangely enough, one of the guy sin my movie is good friends of laurie anderson and lou reed. i'll be sure to relay the information to her that oyu took her whole "language is a virus" idea A LITTLE TOO FUCKING SERIOUSLY

seriously you wackjob, WAKE THE FUCK UP

YOUR NAKED

NOW EAT YOUR HUMBLE PIE

naked lunch indeed

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I know you won't, but admit it (none / 0) (#39)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 05:53:19 PM EST

You lost bad and you have no argument without reading to the essay.

God, what a sore loser you are.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

i'm not sure what you don't want me to admit (none / 1) (#52)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:04:42 PM EST

but whatever you just said, it is about as coherent as your story


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
That you are trolling, as usual. (none / 0) (#89)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:00:41 PM EST

God knows I would, chicken.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Quit shitting all over this web site, jackass. (3.00 / 5) (#98)
by Beatific Deathsquad on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:42:29 PM EST



"I was...gay." -- rusty
[ Parent ]
Sorry (none / 0) (#75)
by kromagg on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:11:52 PM EST

I tried to read your article, but apparently you need to have read (and be proud of having read) the book before you can read the article. So I'll just abstain.

Actually, no, you don't (none / 1) (#77)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:14:45 PM EST

Since I don't talk about the book that much in this article, you'd be mistaken.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

okay then I'm just dumb (nt) (none / 0) (#160)
by kromagg on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 06:29:39 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Not at all. (none / 0) (#161)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 07:32:10 PM EST

You just didn't read the article, as you previously stated. Basically, you're protesting against something you haven't read about.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

interesting (none / 1) (#83)
by trane on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:47:59 PM EST

"Naked Lunch was designed to combat the conservative Western ideas that proliferated throughout the Western world at the time of the book's writing."

And which won out in your own mind, eh?

Time was on his side, I guess. (none / 0) (#88)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 08:35:59 PM EST

BTW, I appreciatre you not voting to your prejudice. It shows character, even for a druggie.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

i'm trying a new tactic (none / 1) (#91)
by trane on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:09:27 PM EST

try to go against my prejudices, but mix it up to keep 'em guessing.

It seemed well-written, if a little self-consciously so - like you've spent a lot of time thinking, 'wow! now THIS is a pretty turn of phrase isn't it!'.

[ Parent ]

Way to go George!!!!!! (none / 1) (#92)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:26:14 PM EST

The anti-George is the way to go for you. Your past clearly shows this.

Wierd, huh?  You can't fote me down, now.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

To be honest (2.75 / 4) (#85)
by coillte on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 08:04:45 PM EST

difficult to read doesn't even begin to cover it.

The novel is designed, insofar as it could be said to be designed, as a non-linear, randomised, magical innoculation against the corruption of language, whose sense of narrative and sentence structure is informed far more by a conscious and unconscious desire to entirely randomise than any conventional literary structures.

The circumstances it was written under only add to the difficulties. Its a partial recycling of a book Interzone, based upon the city of Tangiers, where he was staying. Working towards the final edition of the book, he tended to stumble around his apartment in a Kif haze, randomly placing typed pages on the floor,m on tables, on chairs, shelves, the floor, entirely disordering any plot structure the novel may have had.

The manuscript was physically ordered by Kerouac and Ginsberg who did their best to collect the manuscript pages from around their entirely unorganised disposition apartment and put them back into what they felt was the closest thing they could find to an authentic narrative structure. Theirs is not the entire final edit, or ordering, but they substantially determined the final structure of the printed edition.

The acutal trial involving the book was for obscenity. This is why I am going to vote your story down. To be blunt, many aspects of the book were not ambiguous about the morality of the time. Nor were they ambivalent. They were entirely antithetical to them, and avowedly so, almost anarchistically so. Concretely, definitively. EWvery single breath and word of the novel hates them. Its the viciousness of the satire, the almost unremmitting taunting of what he sees as an irredeemably corrupt, self deceiving and bankrupt social consencus. To call it ambiguous, or to mistake that for ambivalence, is, to put it bluntly, wrong.

Burroughs, for example, specifically pointed out the episodes of hanging in the book, arguing that any society which is unable to face up to the grotesqueness, and physical obscenity of the hangings which it practices (he includes accounts, for instance, of spontaneous ejaculation during hanging - an observed and verified phenomenon at hanging execution) is entirely too hypocritical to posit an authentic moral position.

This is a central idea. Here is the idea of the Naked Lunch - the ability to see the entire truth of a thing and accept that it is so. It is an intimate and characteristic part part of the bankruptcy of the society that condemns him, his moral and biological choices, that it can only narrate itself hypocritically and selectively. Conventional morality in this context is a lie. He is also prosecuting his lifelong war in favour of persoanal freedom in the realm of what he termed victimless crime - drug use, homosexuality, any activity, really, between consenting adults.

The Naked Lunch hates the morality it impugns, and those who practice it, utterly, and with an iron and unswerving dedication.

Burroughs book also includes accounts of sex with teenage male prostitutes. A difficult moral position to endorse , or indeed tolerate, at any time in the last 100 years. Kiki, a favourite prostitute of Burroughs in Tangiers, makes a noteable impact on the novel. As does his graphically displayed sexual murder. Stick in the standard Burroughsian routines  mercilessly satirising almost everything about conventional American modern life, with an unremitting stream of sexual, violent, vicious and rabid imagery equal only in ugliness to the moral bankruptcy and corruption he seeks to illustrate.

Don't do the man a disservice. He was a vicious and cantankerous fucker, with no patience for the weak, the stupid or the hypocritical. A merciless cunt. A tyrant. A goddamned inveterate, recidivist, anarchistic undesireable with a firm grip on truth and hate, and an intimate knowledge that one idea inevitably involves the experience of the other.

He was a fine human being.

______________________
___________________
"XVI The Blasted Tower. Here is purification through fire,lightning, flames, war...the eye is the eye of Shiva... the serpent on the right is the symbol of the active will to live,the dove on the left is passive resignation to death"

Thanks for reading. (2.33 / 3) (#86)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 08:34:03 PM EST

You totally misunderstand the book and my essay.  You seem to take your account of it's creaion form the terrible biographies written about Burroughs in past few decades. That is hindering your understanding of the creation of this book, though the information is available through very reliable channels.

The point is, Ginsberg and Kerouac attempted to pull together a book in 1957 that was not really an actual book until 1959. Brion Gysin and Sincklair Bieles had as much influence on the book as Ginsburg or Kerouac.

I suggest you look into this if you want the real story. At this point you just sound pompous and wrong.

Your -1 is pointless. You have obviously not read my other essays before this and so you are repeating my very points, which makes you look stupid.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Ginsburg? Sincklair Bieles? (none / 0) (#114)
by coillte on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 04:52:38 AM EST

Ginsberg.

Sinclair. Beiles.

I could say "You obviously have not read about them. Which makes you look stupid." But that would be somewhat disingenuous. And hideously impolite. I also don't know for certain what you have and haven't read. It would seem presumptuous and arrogant to presume.

If I needed to know, I'd ask.

And it would be ludicrous to suggest Gysin had no influence. So ludicrous that I never suggest that. We both know that Gysins influence on Burroughs was definitive, in certain senses.

"You seem to take your account of it's creaion form the terrible biographies written about Burroughs in past few decades."

Really. When did we talk about what books I have and have not read? I don't remember trading bibliographies with you. It would seem likely that you would need to ask, to know. It would be polite to refrain from doing me this disservice. As a wiser man once said, don't piss off Satan, and don't take me for dumber than I am.

I first read the Naked Lunch 14 years ago. By that stage I had read Junkie/Junky, Queer, Interzone in its full published form, as well as large amounts of Ginsberg, and Kerouac, significant portions of their mutual correspondence, and a fair amount of interview material with Burroughs himself.

By the time I read Naked Lunch, I had been cutting up and folding in for several months. I had also read Minutes to go in first edition from my college library. Where I studied the Beats. I had also read the Last Words of Dutch Scultz, and, if memory serves, The Adding Machine.

I even tried reading Bowles, both Paul and Jane, to try and get a hang on the cities atmosphere.

The first full Burroughs biography I read was circa 10 years ago. Ted Morgans. I've also read Barry Miles's. And I had already read most of Burroughs published ouevre by that time, listened to interviews, and read Burroughs on Burroughs interviews voraciously.

If you can't take and interact with criticism, without getting immediately personal, don't publish.

Hopefully, my reply is somewhat more polite than yours.

A question. Joan. Culpable or not?

____________________
"XVI The Blasted Tower. Here is purification through fire,lightning, flames, war...the eye is the eye of Shiva... the serpent on the right is the symbol of the active will to live,the dove on the left is passive resignation to death"
[ Parent ]

Since you know so much (1.00 / 2) (#117)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 07:59:38 AM EST

despite a few glaring errors, one has to wonder why you decided to write your own essay within mine.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Ah. (none / 0) (#123)
by coillte on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 11:52:47 AM EST

I see.

Well. At least you're not calling me stupid.

I would have thought the motivation for my contribution was obvious. I certainly tried to make it transparent. It was, as I saw it, to correct you. Was this not clear?

I'm going to presume you mean the glaring errors are mine. Its not entirely clear from how you phrase it.

If they are so glaring - and it is entirely possible - it is odd that you do not attend to them. It would certainly be more apt, to the point, and definitive than calling me an idiot.

I'd be gratified if you would point them out. These glaring errors. It would mark a move from the ad hominen to the pertinent. And I would consider it a useful discussion. Dealing with criticism healthily is a useful skill, Egil. I am in some doubt, I must admit, whether it is one you posess.  

I have taken the effort, despite your considerable and impolite discouragement, to point out your errors, as I saw them, for you.
"XVI The Blasted Tower. Here is purification through fire,lightning, flames, war...the eye is the eye of Shiva... the serpent on the right is the symbol of the active will to live,the dove on the left is passive resignation to death"
[ Parent ]

If I had to attend to every glaring error (2.00 / 2) (#124)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 12:22:30 PM EST

that readers threw at me, I'd be here all day. Take a number.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Ah Egil. (none / 0) (#131)
by coillte on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 05:06:56 PM EST

My opinion of you remains untainted by respect.

It is a pleasure to see that some things in the world truly do not change.
___________
"XVI The Blasted Tower. Here is purification through fire,lightning, flames, war...the eye is the eye of Shiva... the serpent on the right is the symbol of the active will to live,the dove on the left is passive resignation to death"
[ Parent ]

Here's what I'll do. (none / 0) (#133)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 06:26:45 PM EST

After this tanks/posts, I'll go and walk through your first comment and list off the mistakes, m'kay. I promise to also point out the correct parts, too.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

I've (none / 0) (#137)
by coillte on Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 06:43:39 AM EST

lost interest, I'm afraid. Ditto patience.

_______________
"XVI The Blasted Tower. Here is purification through fire,lightning, flames, war...the eye is the eye of Shiva... the serpent on the right is the symbol of the active will to live,the dove on the left is passive resignation to death"
[ Parent ]

I however, have not (2.00 / 2) (#138)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 09:07:41 AM EST

My crusade against arrogant ignorance never ends.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

I'm sure someone will find this interesting. (none / 0) (#111)
by rpresser on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 01:02:26 AM EST

Alas, it is not me.  And I must vote -1, for the presence of such an article would tend to drive away others like me.

Egil must be stopped before it is too late.
------------
"In terms of both hyperbolic overreaching and eventual wrongness, the Permanent [Republican] Majority has set a new, and truly difficult to beat, standard." --rusty

Naked lunch does not look good (1.50 / 2) (#118)
by United Fools on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 08:48:40 AM EST

Naked women are better
We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
-1, lamer than FDR (1.50 / 2) (#119)
by the spins on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 11:08:29 AM EST


 _
( )
 X
/ \ SUPPORT THE DEL GRIFFITH MODBOMBING CAMPAIGN

Noe whun wontts tuu cee yuu nakid att lunch (2.33 / 3) (#130)
by Egil Skallagrimsons Mother on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 04:38:57 PM EST

Annd, how in ye can doo, so mannie worden, whenns et makes sloe teh box for internets?? Howe cann yee finde teh waie for maken so mannie worden, when ye havv soch lazie bonies?

Helpps bettr yuu pot yuur mannie daies inntu harrd worrks, for tenden tuu teh fields, butt nooe: Ie no.

Wie, Eye remmembur et well, howw yuu wood mone wen Eye wuud beatt yuu weth teh rightingstick, for moven ur ass, Skørvic. Hesum guud mule, theen Skørvic, butt YUU WOONT PULL TEH PLOWWE O SKØRVIK WETH FIRRM BUTTOCK THRUU THEEN TUSSOCK! NOO PULLEN TEH DADDOCK, BUTT LYEN ENSTED ON THEE HAMMOCK ORR HASSOCK ANDDE READDEN YUUR PAPERRS WETH WORDEN ALL TEH DAYE, EATEN THRUU TEH BANNOCK ANND HADDOCK FOR SAVEN FORR DINNERS!!!

OE BUTT FOR IFFUM COOD REECH THRRU THEEN INTERNETS WETH THEEN RIGHTINGSTICK, EYE WOUDE SEE TUU ET YOOR BOTOM WOOD BEE BLAK ANND BLUU ANND YUU WOOD WALK FUNNIE FORR EVERMOOR!!

Theis is whatt happenns to thoos who aske abøt mie anachronism.

you guys get all worked up about some... (none / 1) (#140)
by mikelist on Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 09:37:17 AM EST

...book authored by and modeled after a dystopic, queer dope fiend. This shit is not a virus, or a literary catalyst of any kind, merely somewhat disturbing imagery described very well. I put some effort into reading it when I was about 16, some 37 years ago, and enjoyed it in the same way I enjoyed Hesse, Vonnegut, Kerouac, (limited)Ginsberg, Kupferberg and Tom Wolfe.

"the weekends at the college didn't turn out like you planned, the things that pass for knowledge, I just don't understand"
                 -some rock band named after a dildo

Sure, but the difference is (none / 0) (#141)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 09:55:08 AM EST

Burroughs kept writing imporant work, while the rest of those writers wrote their important work early on and coasted the rest of the time. Well, except for Kupferberg, who really did nothing at all.

You should re-read NL and see what I mean.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

reminds me of the root meaning of "fan" (1.00 / 2) (#148)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 11:27:44 PM EST

as in "fanatic"

as in fanatical muslims getting worked up over a fucking cartoon

as in you getting a hard on for barely literate dope fiend

what a loser you are

burroughs is barely interesting, seriously

"blah blah blah word virus" snore...

you seriously think anyone cares?

sorry to piss all over your passions in life, but..

ziiiiiiiiiip...

pissssssssssssssssss...

that's what i think of your barely literate dope fiend god, you pathetic loser


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I tend to find any criticism you level at me as (none / 0) (#150)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Mon Oct 23, 2006 at 07:22:23 AM EST

encouragement. I figure, if this obviously highly medicated whack-job thinks this si bad, it GOT to be good.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

speaking of whack-job (none / 1) (#152)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 12:02:49 AM EST

why don't you go find your well-loved copy of naked lunch and fuck it some more, you fucking fanatic

he's just a fucking babbling heroin addict

burroughs will be forgotten in 100 years

the only people who still like him are beat generation wanna bes like yourself

you're a small subculture, and your ranks are greying and shrinking

and then, poof! no more burroughs worship

burroughs took a shit on some manuscript, and you thought it was gold

sorry fan boy!

it's just SHIT


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I guess he should have written about (none / 1) (#154)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 07:02:34 AM EST

Flip Zombies, huh?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

he could have written about (none / 0) (#157)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 02:11:07 PM EST

scandinavian trolls, anything would have been better


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I'm not sure how yo'd know what he wrote about (none / 0) (#158)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 02:19:20 PM EST

since you haven't read any of it.

Do the asses of IT Drones like you get a lot of ingrown hairs in them from the pressure to unusal weight gain and the lack of regular washing?

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

ah thats funny (none / 1) (#159)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 03:37:53 PM EST

you think i'm pathetic

see i awlays thought that the kind of person who would worship the exploits of naked lunch would be the kind of sheltered, fearful type who WANTED to have those experiences, but was too much of a fretful, timid type to do it

kind of a variation of if you can't do, you teach

if you can't do, you read

why would someone hold this crap book in such prostate love?

the only reason i can think of is because they wish they could, but they can't

because if you could, you would just do it. you would be living naked lunch, not reading about it

if this book was so vital to you, you would just have that life. and then you wouldn't have such high regard for the book, you would have no need to, you were living it. but instead, you worshipt he book, which shows you wish you could, but you're too timid

go for it dude! grow a backbone! live your naked lunch!

(snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

RRROOOOORRRRR!!!!!! (none / 1) (#162)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 07:34:02 PM EST

Has anyone ever mentioned to you that when you describe what you are doing, say writing (snicker) like that, it's really lame?

Think about it.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Oh fiesty! (3.00 / 3) (#155)
by spasticfraggle on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 09:41:46 AM EST

You're everybody's hero cts. What a man! ^_^

--
I'm the straw that broke the camel's back!
[ Parent ]
i know, thanks nt (none / 0) (#156)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 02:10:25 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Nicely approached. (none / 1) (#149)
by vera on Mon Oct 23, 2006 at 02:03:46 AM EST

I enjoy your passionate attempts to inflict curiousity upon as varied an audience as possible.  Your control of language is sufficient to explain the why of a complex system without falling back on a language more specifically tailored to the course of study you're attempting to convey as appealing to those unfamiliar with the more rigorous discourse.

If I can make time to revisit the subject of Burroughs' art, I'll be approaching you about some of the denser aspects of his arguments.

Peace,

--vera

It's great to see how Burroughs has influenced you (none / 1) (#153)
by glor on Tue Oct 24, 2006 at 02:42:01 AM EST

... into declaring your own war against language.

--
Disclaimer: I am not the most intelligent kuron.

suggestion (none / 0) (#163)
by bankind on Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 11:00:12 AM EST

do a find replace "Burroughs" with "GG Allin" and resubmit.


"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman

Burroughs burrowed..... (none / 0) (#164)
by Marvaud on Sat Nov 04, 2006 at 06:13:28 AM EST

I have read Junky and The Wild Boys and the Book of the Dead.
I will now go borrow Naked Lunch.
But ouch, I just realized I owe the library $50.00 fine.
And that was for the quit smoking book I borrowed.
Grrr......

The Making and Meaning of Naked Lunch | 164 comments (144 topical, 20 editorial, 0 hidden)
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