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Telemarketing: Get Rich or Burn Out trying

By xC0000005 in Culture
Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 12:00:00 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)

Telemarketing: To sell, via the phone. That's a simple definition, isn't it? And no telemarketer is ever a total failure. After all, just to put on the headset you've already sold something: Your dignity. That first high pressure sale is a two-fer: One magazine pack and your morals. Keep at it long enough and you can even sell your soul.

I was smart enough to avoid working as a telemarketer. At least, smart enough to avoid working there as a tele-chump. I was, however, desperate enough to take a sys admin job for a telemarketing company. I imagined sitting in a server room, misdirecting calls every now and then to torture people who annoyed me. I got a desk at the far end of a "bank" beside a Viet Nam vintage IBM mainframe and console which still clearly bore the "Protel" pay terminal logo. System administration, frankly, did not amount to much. Every day the auto dialers needed to be fed a new batch of numbers, the day's "seed". These numbers were pulled in sections from the mainframe via a query and dumped to a flat file. Flat file was fed to the auto dialers. That was my job. Well, that and looking busy for eight hours. In the mean time I would listen to the ebb and flow of calls, and watch the circus at the other end of the "bank."

Tel-co (we'll call them that) was run by a group of grade A salesman. Forget selling ice to Eskimos, these guys could sell angst to teenagers or sex in a hippy commune. They brought on a new class of "recruits" every hour. Sometimes an applicant would show up and they'd have him on a phone in an hour or less. Most of that hour was spent on the credit card order system. Things could only get worse from there.

First off, know that tel-co didn't make anything. Tel-co didn't stock anything. Telco did only one thing, and that was sell. If you ordered something from tel-co, they would put in an order to the supplier and have it shipped to your house. This worked for them big time. No stock to worry about liquidating, very little overhead. I never saw an item marked up less than 50% and I know. The man who runs your mainframe knows, folks.

The rank and file phone salesmen were high school kiddies or pre-college. Anyone else had too much sense to work there, except Ragged Ron. I don't know his actual last name. Ragged Ron worked fine for everyone else, it worked ok for me when I had to talk to him. Ron was forty. Ron was homeless. He had a habit of shouting the name of the alcohol he was going to buy after making a sale, frightening those around him with "Night Train, Baby! Ronny's sleeping warm tonight!" Ron was a ridiculously good salesman. That's important when you consider how the rank and file get paid.

Your average sales schmuck has almost no chance of making a sale. He/She/It was making about four dollars an hour (yes, this dates me) getting hung up on and screamed at. To make the fifteen dollars an hour promised in the ads, you'd have to sell. Sell golf clubs. Sell shoes. Sell artificial lawns. Tel-co sold whatever was giving the best kickback this week, so there was no incentive to learn anything about the item you were selling. Most phone calls, according to our phone system, were less than twenty seconds. Every once in a while though, the caller would hang on, and the circus would start.

The sales man would start his pitch himself, reading from a canned script composed by telco's sales men as often as by the company they were selling for. Any and all claims were never verified, probably bogus, and often irrelevant to the actual product. To the kind of callers Tel-co struck gold with, it wasn't the product. It was that someone wanted to talk to them. That's right. Telco wanted elderly customers. When they bought phone blocks (the set of numbers used to seed the auto dialers) they often did it from one of two sources: Other telemarketing firms, or magazines who's readership was comprised mainly of elderly people. The ideal customer was old, alone, and with just enough disposable income to have a credit card.

When a salesman got a talker on the line, his first job was to keep them talking. Job #2 was to flick the lamp on his desk on and off as fast as possible. This served two purposes: One, it sent anyone with epilepsy into a convulsion, and two it summoned a sales manager to stand with you. Once the sales manager was with you the hook was set. Tel-co "rewarded" all salesmen with tiny trinkets, tokens, bait. Someone makes a sale? Cokes for everyone! They marked up the item by $150, they could afford a case of coke an hour. Golfing for dollars was another popular reward - when you made a sale, you would go to the front and "putt" at a windmill with dollar amounts on the vanes. Make it into the windmill, win $10. Now, you might want to note something here - the standard payout for a sale was supposed to be $10, but the windmill vanes all had lesser numbers on them. I could never get why people were excited about the putt. You weren't winning unless you actually sank the shot. At least, not money wise.

Tel-co's managers were masters of manipulation. A fun atmosphere they promised, and a fun atmosphere was often delivered. Bells were rung, kazoos buzzed, flashing lights targeted people who "made the grade", as they put it. The tiny trinkets flowed like plastic cash all day, every day. My shift began at 12:00 and so I was always the last one out, and I watched the place shut down every night.

Ever been in an amusement park when it was closed? Or the fairgrounds in mid summer? I picked up a swarm of bees at a fair ground. In the fall it is packed so tight you have to thread your way through the waters of humanity. In the summer I stood in the square and listened to the birds and the distant cars. Tel-co was like that at night. The chrome was stripped away at night and all I saw was rows of empty plastic chairs, tacky lights and a pile of plastic crap the janitor swept up each night. Yes, the rewards that people grabbed so willingly were thrown like dust on the floor, too cheap to be carried out and home. On Mondays I worked a reverse shift, starting at midnight and ending at noon, and watching the place spin up was surreal.

Mike came in first (well, I don't count) and turned on the normal fluorescent lights. He and the other sales leaders would confer about today's items, joke about the new people hitting the floor. New people were called "Mops", because they were still just soaking it in. At 8:45 the fluorescent lights went off. The glow lights came on, amber yellow track lights on the floor that made the place feel like a cross between a disco club and a movie theatre. The phone banks lit up. The auto dial stations blink while you are waiting for the next call. In the dark the "bank" flashed like a mob of fireflies. At 8:55 they started the music, 80s pop rock, just loud enough to discern a beat, soft enough to not drift into the phones. It throbs in your head like the pulse of some unseen beast, always there. At night I could still feel that distant beat hours after it was off. At 9:00 the doors opened and the first morning's crew came in. Mike would stand at the front of the room as this nervous group sat down and hold up something. A video. Movie Tickets. Popcorn. The prize for the first sale of the morning. Right then, if you weren't part of it, you could see what Tel-co actually ran on: Adrenaline.

The first sale prizes would get people hopping onto the phones, jazzed to make the sale. The longer they went without a sale, the higher the stakes, as Mike would add the prizes together. First sale is now a VHS tape AND a movie ticket. When those station lights started flashing Mike would often shout at the top of his lungs, a "Whoooooooooo" that got everyone nervous and laughing. Hearts beat faster, people grew more excited, and ---there! The first sale was done, credit card was charged, order in the bag! There's a moment of silence, a down turn in the buzz. And Mike's back up, with a new "prize". Something different. Something cheap.

Now, why did the sales managers run over to your station during a call? Because if the mop couldn't make the sale, the sales manager would "help". Hard sell isn't the word for what they did. It was pure "Enhanced Interrogation Methods," ala Presidente Bush. They played good salesman, bad salesman all by themselves. Plugging into the mop's phone the sales manager would join to "help" and apply the pressure. The pressure, incidentally, spilled over.

The mop on the phone with the sales manager is a young kid. He identifies sort of with the "customer" in grandma/grandpa way. Now the sales manager is backing them into a corner, using sales techniques that leave a person feeling like the only rational decision is to buy. Buy, Buy, Buy. Every question, every answer says "Buy". Eventually they stop answering questions, because they're sure that whatever they say, the answer is going to say "Buy". People handing over credit card numbers with a sad uncertainty in their voice, like they aren't sure what just happened. A Ma-Bell style mugging. And the mop listened to it all. After a sale it wasn't uncommon to see the "lucky person" cry. Then they went up to claim their prize and something happened.

One of two somethings, usually. Either the person took their prize and quietly left...or they smiled. And they ran back to their phone. A taste of success, a tiny triumph, and the desire for the rush would have some back on the phones, looking for that next sucker. On sales where the sales managers "helped", you always made less money. Some went to the mop, some was "pocketed" by the sales manager. Often a sales manager would take his $5 portion of the sale, hold it up, and hand it back to the person. The floor cheered. Every time. Incidentally, the phone number for each sale was the only thing that I know tel-co recorded. After all, these people needed to be seeded to the top of tomorrow's list.

I watched many evolve from wide eyed criers to wild grinning sales-bots. "Every number, that's a lotto ticket, and every miss, that just gets you one step closer to a hit." That was Mike's motivational line to the crew. It didn't work at all for some people. They would leave their station in mid day and just not return. It worked for a while for others. Monday rolls around and there's slots in the bank. "You got to invest in the bank," Mike said every morning before beginning "training." For some, the drippings of fat from this barbecue of dignity were all it took. They liked the game and came back all summer long, every day. There was always a line of people waiting to spin the wheel and win a prize, hoping that next beep was the key to a tiny scratch of cash. And the prizes, the candy, the adrenaline, they kept it all flowing until the lights went down each night.


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Telemarketing: Get Rich or Burn Out trying | 51 comments (38 topical, 13 editorial, 0 hidden)
I really enjoy this (none / 1) (#1)
by mybostinks on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 03:31:12 PM EST

and look forward to voting it up.

Well done and interesting. Brings back (2.66 / 3) (#3)
by dakini on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 05:55:27 PM EST

memories for sure. +FP

" May your vision be clear, your heart strong, and may you always follow your dreams."
"Moonlight Serenade by Glenn Miller, (3.00 / 1) (#7)
by Text to Consciousness Stream service v1 on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 06:33:09 AM EST

echoing and reverberating in a hollow, head-shaped vacuum"

[ Parent ]
As expected (2.50 / 2) (#13)
by Sgt York on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 01:04:37 PM EST

Bee guy = good shit.

+1FP, great read.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.

Well (3.00 / 4) (#25)
by xC0000005 on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 09:18:05 PM EST

thanks. I never am quite sure how to respond to these comments. "Yes, I am" always sounds pretentious (and I've crapped some real doozies into the queue at times). On the other hand, thanks. Incidentally, I've passed that article of yours about genetic manipulation to a friend who does it for a living (crop manipulation) and he said it was the most read thing around their lab for a week.

Voice of the Hive - Beekeeping and Bees for those who don't
[ Parent ]
This was interesting but I don't understand (1.66 / 3) (#15)
by Professional Phrenologist on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 01:16:21 PM EST

a few things:

  1. Why not name the company? It's not like they can sue you for describing something completely legal that happened about 20 years ago.

  2. Why so short? This should be about 2 - 3 times a s long and actually contain a narrative of some sort, even if it is not meant to be more than a sketch. For instance, Ragged Ron should get about 5 paragraphs. New Recruit should also get a few. Managers should get a few.

Good start. Needs a lot of work.

Ironically, my first K5 story to get voted up was written while I worked in telemarketing hell.


Well, we have to end apartheid for one. And slow down the nuclear arms race, stop terrorism and world hunger. We have to provide food and shelter for the homeless, and oppose racial discrimination and promote civil rights, while also promoting equal rights for women. We have to encourage a return to traditional moral values. Most importantly, we have to promote general social concern and less materialism in young people.

Answers: (none / 0) (#16)
by xC0000005 on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 01:20:51 PM EST

Because I can't remember whether it was "Applied Marketing" or "Marketing Dynamics". I know one was the name of the company, the other their slogan. Funny thing - when I was back in Texas last time I drove past the place where I used to work. Didn't go in, just drove past. Name has changed but it's obviously still open, and judging from the line of folks at the door they still run the same show. Different fur, same wolves.

Voice of the Hive - Beekeeping and Bees for those who don't
[ Parent ]
Should have been longer. Any of those names (none / 1) (#17)
by Professional Phrenologist on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 02:04:24 PM EST

will do. The characters and the explanation of why people line up to work there and all that would help.


Well, we have to end apartheid for one. And slow down the nuclear arms race, stop terrorism and world hunger. We have to provide food and shelter for the homeless, and oppose racial discrimination and promote civil rights, while also promoting equal rights for women. We have to encourage a return to traditional moral values. Most importantly, we have to promote general social concern and less materialism in young people.
[ Parent ]

Longer ago than I choose to recall. . . . (none / 1) (#21)
by IHCOYC on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 06:20:10 PM EST

. . . I wrote The Salesman as Social Pirate here. A similar spin on the same sort of thing, from a different perpective.

What astounds me is that I have been on the site for more than six years now, since that was not my first story here. (This was.)
"Complecti antecessores tuos in spelæis stygiis Tartari appara," eructavit miles primus.
"Vix dum basiavisti vicarium velocem Mortis," rediit G

That brings back some memories. (none / 0) (#22)
by xC0000005 on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 07:01:38 PM EST

I've been reading this site for years (way longer than I've had an account). First story I do not recognize. The salesman one I do remember. In essence yes, an unsolicited sale is consumption of your most precious commodity - time.

Voice of the Hive - Beekeeping and Bees for those who don't
[ Parent ]
I was at work when this went to voting (2.75 / 4) (#23)
by mybostinks on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 08:32:54 PM EST

and naturally it was voted up before I got the chance.

I was a telemarketer once AKA stockbroker. It was my shot at the brass ring but almost in that business is NOT GOOD ENOUGH though the year I did it I made 60,000+ bonus. In the brokerage bizness that ain't good enough. One has to be a cutthroat to really make the bucks.

I spent hours on the phone as a "cold call cowboy". It was murder and the brass ring was always just out of reach.

Ok, I'm not familiar with that type of operation. (none / 0) (#24)
by xC0000005 on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 09:14:05 PM EST

What kind of calls does a stockbroker make? Cold call and ask if they are interested in investing? Really?

Voice of the Hive - Beekeeping and Bees for those who don't
[ Parent ]
Telemarketing stockbroker? (none / 0) (#35)
by escargot on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 09:05:41 AM EST

Like the movie "boiler room"?

[ Parent ]
uhm, no it doesn't (1.50 / 2) (#28)
by manjal on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 07:30:19 AM EST

he wasn't a telemarketer. he just saw others at work. he has no idea what its like.

[ Parent ]
Hi, I think you've dropped this -> ( ' ) (2.00 / 2) (#32)
by Joe Sixpack on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 05:10:18 AM EST

[ Parent ]

yeah. you arent and werent a telemarketer (2.00 / 2) (#27)
by manjal on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 07:28:41 AM EST

and you avoided this not because you were smart, but because you were lucky. i hate to break this to you, but lots of people who are just as 'smart' as you, and every bit as capable as you, were probably working as telemarketers in that place.

please dont pretend your own profession is somehow more noble.

Question (2.28 / 7) (#29)
by trhurler on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 08:19:54 PM EST

Do you have even a shred of evidence for your claim? Because it is both rather extraordinary and contradicted by mountains of evidence.

The truth is, almost any job is more noble than knowingly ripping off old people. Even HR people generally don't stoop that low.

And as for being capable, the kind of telemarketing operations that bring new people in every day have really only one appeal: you're too incompetent, too lazy, or too completely unqualified even to keep a job in something like fast food or secretarial work or whatever. Otherwise, you wouldn't be there.

Finally, even dumb IT people are usually above average for the general population.

Egalitarianism as a matter of principled action is one thing. Egalitarianism as the claim that everybody literally is equivalent is equivalent to believing in the tooth fairy.

'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
if you work at a telemarketing firm, (3.00 / 3) (#36)
by manjal on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 10:44:06 AM EST

providing basic infrastructure support, then you are no 'better' morally than the telemarketers you look down on. its simply not fair.

[ Parent ]
I agree, oddly. (none / 1) (#39)
by xC0000005 on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 01:20:49 PM EST

There's a reason I left. Of course, it has nothing to do with the morality of the job. It hat more to do with what was available (a better job).

Voice of the Hive - Beekeeping and Bees for those who don't
[ Parent ]
But that's not what you said the first time (none / 0) (#41)
by trhurler on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 07:22:32 PM EST

You were talking about intelligence and capability, not moral virtue. Obviously anyone who really wanted to live a moral life would not work for a company that economically rapes old people, but that has nothing to do with intelligence or ability.

'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
No, it's not what I said. (none / 0) (#45)
by xC0000005 on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 03:10:08 PM EST

The people who worked there (other than Ron) were idiots for returning to work each day. The morals are a whole other mess.

Voice of the Hive - Beekeeping and Bees for those who don't
[ Parent ]
I used to be a telemarketer. (3.00 / 4) (#43)
by fluxrad on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 09:20:33 PM EST

I was 17 and the money was fucking great. Where any other job would pay $5.15 or maybe $6 an hour to mop urinal stalls or reorganize a shelf containing product X, I was getting $10 to sit at a desk with a headset on and play solitaire.

Funny, though, I don't remember my telemarketing days (about 3 months) being very stressful at all. The first one or two calls were a bit nerve racking just because the experience was so new, but after that it was smooth sailing. I ended my employment there because they shut the doors and moved the call center to Nebraska, but the thing I really remember from my tenure as a "high pressure sales rep" wasn't the pressure at all; what I remember was the feeling you got - over time - from being yelled at by 300 people each and every day.

Would I work as a telemarketer now? Of course not. But I also wouldn't work at a Taco Bell or any other of a hundred different jobs where you have to humiliate the hell out of yourself just to make a buck.

To answer the second part of your post: Yes, I'm smarter than you.

"It is seldom liberty of any kind that is lost all at once."
-David Hume
[ Parent ]
Hmm (none / 1) (#46)
by trhurler on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 08:57:28 PM EST

You might be smarter than me. Percentage-wise it isn't very likely, but given that there are six billion-ish people, there are certainly a lot who are. Then again, you might not be. But it doesn't matter because it is safe to say we're both very intelligent people, and beyond a certain point, just being smarter isn't as useful as particular aptitudes.

As for ways to make $10/hour, I came up with a better one at that age than getting screamed at all day. Machine operator. Dead easy. The 50 year old union guys are mostly scared of computers, so most any new machine in a factory will have some young guy running it even if it is a choice job. I basically sat there for 10 hours a day watching the machine and occasionally making adjustments. Not exciting, but a lot better than phone work of any kind, and it paid enough that I didn't mind the occasional stupidity that comes with union work. (I was only nominally a union member myself, but of course a union shop automatically has an underlying adversarial current regardless of the "cooperation" talk you see on the news. Even when there is no reason to be antagonistic, that's what you get.)

'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
I did it for a month back in the day (none / 0) (#50)
by livus on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 11:52:20 PM EST

and no one ever yelled at me, even when I cold called. But then again, I have a very nice voice.

HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
Free the Indian Intelligensia! (none / 1) (#30)
by nlscb on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 12:35:19 AM EST

In India, you need a PhD to be a telemarketer.

In America, basic literacy it not even required.

Most job requirements are simply barriers based on the demand for the job. In India, it's a good job to have. So you get very educated Brahmins as telemarketers. In America, only lowly emo goth untouchables would even consider doing it, and only for the Alanis-Morrisette-irony-of-it-all.

Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange
[ Parent ]

Are you just pulling that out of your ass? (none / 0) (#31)
by Joe Sixpack on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 05:08:26 AM EST

Because I find it hard to believe that you need a PhD in order to be a telemarketer in India.

[ Parent ]

Indian telemarketers are surprisingly educated (none / 0) (#33)
by nlscb on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 08:42:09 AM EST

At least in comparison to the average Indian education. PhD may be a bit much, but I can definitely bet there might be a more than a few frustrated business majors doing telemarketing work.

Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange
[ Parent ]

god forbid americans have to labor (none / 0) (#37)
by manjal on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 10:45:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Well, yeah (none / 1) (#38)
by nlscb on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 11:11:12 AM EST

China makes our stuff. India does the paperwork. And Mexicans build our houses and cook our food.

Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange
[ Parent ]

^- frustrated business major. % (none / 1) (#40)
by Joe Sixpack on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 02:22:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Any other cool stories about Ragged Ron? (none / 0) (#34)
by nlscb on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 08:44:40 AM EST

I was hoping to hear more about him. Sounds like a very colorful character.

Great story, btw.

Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange

Very entertaining. (3.00 / 3) (#42)
by Pirengle on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 08:03:01 PM EST

I can remember a very surreal time in my life when I was rooming with three guys.  They were all working at the same telemarketing firm.  At the same time, I was working for a company to which the state had contracted out the collation of an anti-telemarketing Do Not Call registry.  (This was before the rollout of the national Do Not Call registry, which was partially inspired by such state registries).

So every evening, my roomies would come home burned out, depressed, and bitter.  Nothing but screaming rants, people hanging up on them, and plastic fake "management".  I came home every night serene and relaxed from a long, hard day of being told what an angel I was by little old ladies sick to death of being harassed by telemarketers.  I practically glowed.  Ironically, some of them called suspiciously, so untrusting they had become of the phone as a medium of communication; some thought the registry was some kind of telemarketer trick.

Even more ironically, the call center I was working for had, one "bank" over, people working away doing cold calls.  Not my roommates - that would have been not only ironic but worthy perhaps of a Hollywood summer comedy movie.  But it still amused me to no end that I was working every day towards destroying the livelihood (if you could call it that) of both my roommates and my own co-workers.  

A sure-fire way to make friends and influence people: transform the letters "l" and "i" into "-1"s whenever posting. Instant wit!
Telemarketing sucks (3.00 / 3) (#44)
by Marvaud on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 09:27:42 PM EST

My last job was in telemarketing.
It was a real shit job too, so I left.
The thing is if someone from that company
rang me and tried to hassle me I'd tell them
to fuck off, so having a social conscience,
I just couldn't do it...

i have felt too guilty (none / 1) (#47)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 04:19:22 PM EST

to read any of your stuff lately, because i knew i still owed you money for the honey. i kept losing your address and/or forgetting my paypal stuff. anyway, i could finally stand the guilt no longer today as i so badly wanted to read this.

so now!(and really, this is no joke of one of the two biggest lies in the world)--- the check is in the email.  

and so my conscience assauged, i could read this.  and read it, i did.  and laughed.  
you know bee-guy, you are really a great writer.  you really are.  if k5 were nothing but you writing, it would be a great site.  

Well, it didn't bother me greatly. (none / 0) (#48)
by xC0000005 on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 06:15:58 PM EST

I did get it there. :) Read without guilt - I haven't lost any sleep either way.

Voice of the Hive - Beekeeping and Bees for those who don't
[ Parent ]
I knew you did, because (none / 0) (#49)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 06:24:01 PM EST

I talked to Codewright. and he was very very pleased with the gift, i think.  

[ Parent ]
being a salesman (none / 1) (#51)
by seagull11 on Wed Aug 08, 2007 at 04:45:07 AM EST

Being a salesman feels good when you sell something people really need...Or, instead, if you think they need it, and convince them they need it, it feels good for both sides...I know that, since I worked as a phone salesman for 1.5 years. My job was to sell Internet packages and abroad calls. And I managed pretty well...

gps tracking systems
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Telemarketing: Get Rich or Burn Out trying | 51 comments (38 topical, 13 editorial, 0 hidden)
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