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[P]
Introducing New People to Hunting

By GhostOfTiber in Culture
Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 08:57:10 PM EST
Tags: Hunting (all tags)

It's that time of year again. New people want to get into hunting and I intend on dragging them into it. Below the fold - New hunter safety courses, teaching people to hunt and more delicious squirrel pot pie.

I've talked about hunting squirrel before and even covered the mechanics of shooting flintlock but these are mere guides. The squirrel article in particular would be good for someone to read who already knew how to hunt, but I realize now what it's missing. There needs to be a bridge from the classroom to actual hunting.


The New Hunter Safety
Hunting is sort of an interesting cultural meme. The percent of Americans who actually hunt is somewhere in the 5% range. This coincides strongly to the amount of Americans who actively oppose hunting with protests and whatnot which is also 5%. The percent of Americans who support hunting is roughly 50%, and of course this means the percent of Americans who passively act against hunting is also roughly 50%. Ask any two people on the street why they support or don't support hunting and there will be as many answers to the question as there will be people asked. The new Hunter Safety has a DVD which does exactly this - a roaming camera goes around and asks people if they hunt, if they fish, if they oppose or support hunting and fishing and how they feel about it. Needless to say it wasn't filmed in Philadelphia. The vignettes range from the strange moral equivalence that puts animals on equal footing with people all the way to the guy who recalls hunting in World War 2 simply because they didn't want to loot. Captain America there looks about 100 years old, and later goes on to talk about handing down the tradition, and the moral equivalence guy who is definitely some kind of faggot later goes on to mention how he protests hunting. Every shade is represented here, and the middle seems to be people who support hunting as wildlife management ("raccoons keep knocking over my garbage can") and the other side talking about how they don't like the idea of shooters around their neighborhood. Neither of the "middle grounds" has ever been a gun in the woods and the protesters clearly have some kind of anti-gun bias which isn't represented in the film.

The middle grounds are the people the film focuses on, there's no attempt to reach out to the anti-hunting folk as they're called. Not anti-hunters, the film goes a long way towards depersonalizing hunting, but antihunting folk. Honestly from the pro-gun perspective this seems strange since the best argument towards firearms is that people kill people with tools that happen to be guns, but ultimately people kill people. Ergo, people kill animals in hunting situations and nonhunting situations, so any protest against hunting is a protest against hunters. No-one calls grandma who accidentally hits a deer a hunter, but anyone engaged in hunting is surely a hunter. Perspective aside, each of the shades of opinion gets a cut of time to teach lessons on hunting. "Don't engage protesters, don't point weapons at protesters which is what they want you to do". Other less extreme viewpoints are treated as scenarios. The woman with the raccoon problem would best be served with a trap, but she understands the idea of an unchecked animal population. Raccoon's predators, for instance, don't usually operate in suburbia. Everyone's back yard is lousy with squirrels because there's no big cats anymore and hawks can't open trashcan lids. The other opinion - represented by the infamous "hunting wolves from the helicopter" video - emphasizes wildlife management. Although I suspect it would have been even more effective if they showed the aftermath of grandma's car hitting a deer. The politics behind that in PA however range from mundane to obscene and the current deer-kill hotspot (Valley Forge state park) is using "birth control" darts on deer. Your tax dollars at work, I can't wait until some kid finds a needle in the grass from a lost dart.

After the politics it's a fairly standard affair showing how to conduct yourself in the field. Two rednecks drinking beer while driving pull off the road to shoot a deer. They take the dead animal, toss it over the hood, and proceed to drive drunkenly through suburbia offending everyone with their antics, conduct and corpse. There's a warning there about how this can get you fined and your hunting license revoked, but the people engaged in poaching aren't licensed anyway and most hunt by night.

My wife said the whole thing was boring, and followed up by a written test. My wife falls into the camp of people who approve of hunting but have never done it. This year will be her first year in the field. My other buddy has always liked guns and fast cars, but never gone hunting. He's interested in the idea of delicious food running around the woods. Both of them had to take the course and said it was largely common sense. I was just blown away by the idea it was a DVD. Back when I took it 15 years ago, it was just lecture.

The Field
After a day of massively boring classwork and DVDs, the class goes outside. Frankly I feel like the lecture I got would have better been served by example and if anyone from the Pennsylvania Game Commission ever reads this, I hope they understand the DVD is nice but no-one seriously wants to be the degenerates portrayed as the "bad example" in your film. While the social commentary is interesting, most people would best be served being taught how to actually hunt. The 5% statistic means that unless you know someone who hunts, you'll never be exposed to it. There's people out there looking for the experience and looking for how to actually do it, but they're not served well with the current education course.

The format in the field goes from "don't drink and drive" to actual examples of safe shots. Don't shoot at animals which aren't in season and don't shoot at animals which aren't game animals. There's a walk around the woods to present some shooting situations and what to do in each. This obviously depends on where you're taking the course, but the local one has archery targets (foam animals) set up in the woods. Some of them have blaze orange around them, some of them have no proper backstops, some of them are presented climbing trees. There's discussion about using rimfires against animals in trees (the official stance is "don't do it") and using shotguns and bows for "safe shots". This is where things fall short in my opinion. There's no mention of how to properly move in the woods, or how to actually listen for animals. There was barely a discussion about kill zones. There's plenty of discussion about safety but none about hunting.

Actual Hunting
I came to the realization that my geocaching buddy didn't really have a real world idea of how a shotgun worked (choke and shot size versus distance). My wife didn't know how to move through the woods. Neither one of them knew what animals sounded like versus any other movement of the leaves. In short, the Game Commission taught them everything about being safe but nothing about actual hunting. If you have it, go out with a friend who hunts. Nothing beats firsthand experience. If you can, go bird hunting first. It's frustrating as all hell to get the aiming down but once you understand it, there's plenty of shooting opportunities if you're in the right place. Move up to small game. The skills you will need to cultivate to making the jump are moving quietly in the woods and listening. You also will take your newfound understanding of how the shotgun works and can apply it to shooting through cover. Ammo becomes a concern here, off brand #6s someone used on doves suddenly won't hold up to shooting through brush. It's no longer sufficient to still hunt, although you can, but the squirrels will stay in cover to avoid you. Finally once someone kills a few squirrels, they should have developed the skills to go after deer, where things like wind and UV visibility factor into the hunt.

The game commission, strangely, doesn't teach you a lick of this.

Woodsmanship
If you have the chance, the definitive guide in my opinion is Shots at Whitetails. Everyone who is interested in sneaking through the woods and hunting should read it and take it to heart. The best time to practice hunting skills is hiking during the off season. Bring along the squirrel article and look for oak. Look for the dreys. Figure out how to move through the woods. The biggest obstacle for new people learning to hunt isn't the shooting - anyone can do that at the range - but moving and listening and finding game. Still hunting birds is a good intro to it, but movement is what it takes to actually hunt. The hunters education course just had people stomping around in a group. My two biggest tips - when you're looking around, don't move your feet, and when you're moving your feet, pick them straight up and put them straight back down. Don't buy any of this Pocahontas Disney bullshit about rolling your feet or any such crap. You will be much quieter if you follow those two rules. Spend about equal time moving and looking if you have a lot of area to cover, and if you think there might be game in an area, spend even more time looking than moving. Get into the habit of placing your feet so you can twist your body to look around without changing your stance. Every time you move you attract attention, and if you make noise, it's only made worse. Go hiking during the off season and scout the area and practice these skills. Also as much as I advocate earplugs, the earmuff crowd likes them because they can walk around with them off and just shrug them on when it's shooting time. It's entirely personal preference, but I highly suggest wearing the earmuffs or earplugs you plan on hunting with while you practice your woodsmenship.

Finding a Place To Hunt
Pennsylvania has state game land maps in clickable format. These are your best bets. Other states have different formats and it's important that you ask about it when you get your hunting license. In fact, before actually getting into this whole sport, you should make sure there's a place to hunt. The laws are different state to state but I've got a better grasp on them since I wrote the squirrel article. Basically if you're hunting anywhere but home you need the out of state license. This is costly and other states may require you to take their hunter safety course (New Jersey). At very least, before you opt to hunt in another state, try your home state first. Unless you're from Alaska, your state should have a licensing authority, and the licensing authority will have maps to show you where you can hunt. Some states such as Iowa have no state game lands at all because it's all farms, at which point bribing the farmer with a a gift basket will work well to get you permission to hunt on the land. Other states, such a Maine, have their own unique licensing scheme (one license per animal per species) and also permit hunting in the state parks which may require additional fees. The only point I want anyone to take from this section is that you should figure out where you can hunt first, then develop skills in the woods, then take the required class. Enjoy hiking first, then you can learn to enjoy hunting.

Buying a Gun
This also doesn't get covered in hunter safety and it bugged me a bit. The local gun shops do OK, and they're a fine place to learn your local laws. Some states require paperwork on all transfers, some states (Pennsylvania) allow for person-to-person transfers in state. What this means is that if someone is selling a gun to someone else in state, it's perfectly legal to pay in cash for a longarm. I happen to like using gunbroker to purchase guns. For PA, this means shipping it to an FFL, then having them do the background check and then I pick up the gun. I pay the seller for it on gunbroker, plus the shipping, plus the transfer fees. The old H&R my grandfather had was a good example of "cheap good starter guns". It's a full choke 410 shotgun. If it were on the market, it might be worth $50, because I got it with a bent firing pin. It's OK to buy guns in marginal condition if you can get parts for them. In our case, H&R was really easy to deal with. I give them the serial number and a credit card, and they ship me the firing pin. The only gotcha was that you need to be comfortable with gunsmithing to make the most of this. In the case of the 410, that means using a brass punch to knock the pins out, then wrestling with the thing to get the firing pin out because it's bent. The new firing pin was 1/8th, the old one was 3/32nds of an inch. Not a problem drilling the receiver, but do keep in mind you're working on a small scale. But, if you're thinking you will have to spend $300 on a gun to get into the sport, there's plenty of guns out there which need a bit of love and care and are perfectly serviceable weapons.

The old joke between any two hunters in the woods is, "What are you hunting?" "Oh, I haven't hunted anything - I'm taking my gun for a walk".

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Poll
Which Demographic Are You?
o I protest against hunting. 13%
o I don't approve of hunting, but don't protest. 26%
o I do approve of hunting, but don't hunt. 50%
o I hunt. 10%

Votes: 30
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o delicious squirrel pot pie
o hunting squirrel
o shooting flintlock
o Shots at Whitetails
o state game land maps
o gunbroker
o Also by GhostOfTiber


Display: Sort:
Introducing New People to Hunting | 83 comments (70 topical, 13 editorial, 0 hidden)
We like to hire Sara Palin (3.00 / 7) (#5)
by United Fools on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:35:44 PM EST

to teach us how to hunt.

We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
I APPROVE OF THIS (none / 1) (#6)
by GhostOfTiber on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:36:32 PM EST

HUNT NAKED.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

CAIRBOU BARBIE > GHOSTOFTIBER (3.00 / 3) (#10)
by circletimessquare on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 04:35:42 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
The moose hunting instructions are missing $ (none / 1) (#17)
by localroger on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 09:30:39 PM EST



And that is what is so great about the internet. It enables pompous blowhards to connect with other pompous blowhards in a vast circle jerk of pomposity
[ Parent ]
Palin should go hunting with Cheney. (none / 1) (#56)
by superdiva on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 08:04:31 PM EST

nt.
_____________________________________________

Psych-E Halloween Contest (NSFW)


[ Parent ]

Yes, let's hope that (none / 1) (#43)
by Harry B Otch on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 01:25:32 PM EST

she's looking for a new gig within a month or so.

-----
Americans are a race of diseased gibbons that descended from the assholes of a dying god - E
[
Parent ]

go rent the deer hunter, that pa-centric movie (none / 0) (#11)
by circletimessquare on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 04:37:24 PM EST

masturbate furiously at the scene where deniro decides to not shoot the buck, and then yells at his gun-coveting friend, and thereby reprogram yourself appropriately

k thx

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

yeah, deniro is gay in that movie (none / 0) (#12)
by GhostOfTiber on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 04:46:03 PM EST


[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

at least he has sex with a human rather than a gun (none / 0) (#13)
by circletimessquare on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 04:55:14 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
yes, a male human (nt) (none / 0) (#14)
by GhostOfTiber on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 04:59:46 PM EST


[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

penis!=gun (none / 1) (#15)
by circletimessquare on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 05:19:06 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I SEE WHAT YOU DID THAR. (3.00 / 2) (#26)
by GhostOfTiber on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 07:16:14 AM EST


[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

This is a serious, well-written article on an (2.00 / 3) (#16)
by BonitaCrawford on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 09:23:20 PM EST

interesting subject. -1.

..You could take solace in (none / 0) (#75)
by pie on Fri Oct 24, 2008 at 11:20:22 AM EST

the very poor choice of words:

"There needs to be a bridge from the classroom to actual hunting."

I don't think many people enjoy the common results of the combination of guns and classrooms!

[ Parent ]

Weird. (3.00 / 5) (#18)
by livus on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 09:30:45 PM EST

I grew up in the "woods" as you guys call them. "Woodsmanship" seems strange to me, the idea of town people taking a course in how to skulk around in there.

Bit like if when I moved to the city I got to do a course in "Metropolitanship" where we learned to walk normally on pavement and how to smell all metrosexual.

The thought that people should take courses in how to walk just so they can turn up and kill the inhabitant animals is bizarre, too. It seems normal for my people to maybe kill and eat certain animals nearby who bug us, but why people who haven't even had any contact with such animals would want to go in and mess with them especially seems odd, to me.  

The main reason I tend to move so quietly is because as a kid I didn't want to run into wild boar or dogs in there.

Ah well, I remember having a similar conceptual problem with hiking, too. I'd better shut up before I jinx you into getting yourself killed by a moose.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

You know... (none / 0) (#19)
by GhostOfTiber on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 09:54:27 PM EST

...you've eaten africans? Did it taste good or was it some kind of artificial sweetener called AFFIRMATIVE ACTION?

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Natural and delicious baby you know it. n (none / 0) (#79)
by livus on Fri Oct 24, 2008 at 05:56:38 PM EST



---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
They need woodsmanship for the simple reason (3.00 / 3) (#23)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 05:04:03 AM EST

that otherwise, they'd be limp-dicked metrosexuals all year round.

[ Parent ]
but thats how they should stay (none / 1) (#77)
by livus on Fri Oct 24, 2008 at 05:53:05 PM EST

We should build fences round the cities and not let city folks out at all without a permit. O-Zone.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
The main skill city folk need to know (none / 1) (#37)
by Nimey on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 11:25:11 AM EST

is how to move around the woods quietly so as to not scare the game. Knowing to stay upwind is also important, and to not piss where they hope game will be.
--
Never mind, it was just the dog cumming -- jandev
You Sir, are an Ignorant Motherfucker. -- Crawford
I am arguably too manic to do that. -- Crawford
I already fuck my mother -- trane
Nimey is right -- Blastard
i am in complete agreement with Nimey -- i am a pretty big deal

[ Parent ]
DID YOU NOT EVEN READ MY COMMENT. n (none / 0) (#78)
by livus on Fri Oct 24, 2008 at 05:56:06 PM EST



---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
u shoot dudes in the butt (3.00 / 2) (#20)
by Jobst of Moravia on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 01:31:53 AM EST


---
              __
   .,-;-;-,. /'_\ ---Did this Negro say "Street Moor"?
 _/_/_/_|_\_\) /
'-<_><_><_><_>=\
 `/_/====/_/-'\_\
  ""     ""    ""

introducing new dudes to your dick (none / 1) (#22)
by Jobst of Moravia on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 03:03:45 AM EST


---
              __
   .,-;-;-,. /'_\ ---Did this Negro say "Street Moor"?
 _/_/_/_|_\_\) /
'-<_><_><_><_>=\
 `/_/====/_/-'\_\
  ""     ""    ""

[ Parent ]

I would've gone with this as the top-level post (none / 1) (#44)
by Delirium on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 01:56:46 PM EST

editorial comment

[ Parent ]
we need some background on the author: (none / 1) (#28)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 08:34:33 AM EST

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/21/rep-murtha-calls-western-pa-redneck/

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Murtha is AMAZING (none / 0) (#29)
by GhostOfTiber on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 08:45:49 AM EST

If there was ever anyone who should be investigated for election fraud, it's him. For whatever amazing reason he's managed to swing a seat despite being slated to lose, insulting his base, and generally being a toolbox in PA politics.

It takes a lot to get you out of office here in PA.

In other news, it's like night and day being in the suburbs and the sticks. Philadelphia really doesn't have that many Obama/McCain signs, suburbia where I currently live is firmly Obama, but drive 10 miles away from that and it's McCain land. I am going to be really interested in the voting numbers for this election in PA.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

from the state that gave us santorum (none / 0) (#30)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 09:35:41 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
He was a good guy (none / 0) (#33)
by GhostOfTiber on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 10:43:19 AM EST

until he wasn't.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

he was is and always will be a shitstain (none / 0) (#35)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 10:46:27 AM EST

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/3/13/83622/1107

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Philly on one side, Pittsburgh on the other (none / 1) (#45)
by rusty on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 02:21:56 PM EST

...and West Virginia in the middle.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
It goes AFRICA-VIRGINIA-AFRICA (none / 0) (#54)
by GhostOfTiber on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 04:41:12 PM EST


[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Pennsyltucky $ (none / 0) (#55)
by anaesthetica on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 06:32:50 PM EST


—I'm the little engine that didn't.
k5: our trolls go to eleven
[A]S FAR AS A PERSON'S ACTIONS ARE CONCERNED, IT IS NOT TRUE THAT NOTHING BUT GOOD COMES FROM GOOD AND NOTHING BUT EVIL COMES FROM EVIL, BUT RATHER QUITE FREQUENTLY THE OPPOSITE IS THE CASE. ANYONE WHO DOES NOT REALIZE THIS IS IN FACT A MERE CHILD IN POLITICAL MATTERS. max weber, politics as a vocation


[ Parent ]
Puzzling (none / 0) (#46)
by rusty on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 02:23:18 PM EST

Since when are rednecks insulted by being called rednecks?

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
exactly (none / 0) (#47)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 02:27:22 PM EST

all this OMFG MURTHA CALLED REDNECKS REDNECKS is a reaction from elitist urban assholes, since rednecks are quite proud of being rednecks and do not see a slur or insult in murtha's words. they probably agree with him. murtha stays elected, because murtha knows his constituency

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
ps (none / 0) (#48)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 02:27:53 PM EST

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2008/10/15/144118/13

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
AFAIK (none / 0) (#60)
by Sairon on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 06:59:14 PM EST

Redneck is a derogatory racist comment referring to Irish/Scots.

[ Parent ]
It's a derogatory term (none / 0) (#72)
by Nimey on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:39:16 PM EST

for racist and otherwise ignorant rural folks, usually whites, but it's not impossible to have a black redneck.
--
Never mind, it was just the dog cumming -- jandev
You Sir, are an Ignorant Motherfucker. -- Crawford
I am arguably too manic to do that. -- Crawford
I already fuck my mother -- trane
Nimey is right -- Blastard
i am in complete agreement with Nimey -- i am a pretty big deal

[ Parent ]
+1, if and ONLY if you (none / 1) (#32)
by Hiphopopotamus on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 10:02:03 AM EST

cross-post this to Husi.
_________________

I'm In LOVE!

Sure (nt) (none / 0) (#34)
by GhostOfTiber on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 10:43:33 AM EST


[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

+1 when it happens (none / 1) (#36)
by Hiphopopotamus on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 10:59:13 AM EST


_________________

I'm In LOVE!
[ Parent ]

-1 if you cross-post this to husi (3.00 / 4) (#42)
by BottleRocket on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 01:12:03 PM EST


$ . . . . . $ . . . . . $ . . . . . $
. ₩ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . *
$ . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $
Yes I do download [child pornography], but I don't keep it any longer than I need to, so it can yield insight as to how to find more. --MDC
$ . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $
. . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . *
. ₩ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$ . . . . . $ . . . . . $ . . . . . $
$B R Σ III$

[ Parent ]

-1 if he doesn't so he might as well do it (3.00 / 2) (#50)
by Hiphopopotamus on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 02:48:33 PM EST


_________________

I'm In LOVE!
[ Parent ]

But I never go to husi anyway (3.00 / 2) (#52)
by BottleRocket on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 03:48:48 PM EST

-1 just to be sure all bases are covered.

$ . . . . . $ . . . . . $ . . . . . $
. ₩ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . *
$ . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $
Yes I do download [child pornography], but I don't keep it any longer than I need to, so it can yield insight as to how to find more. --MDC
$ . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $
. . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . *
. ₩ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$ . . . . . $ . . . . . $ . . . . . $
$B R Σ III$

[ Parent ]

I like yer style (none / 1) (#53)
by Hiphopopotamus on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 03:55:07 PM EST

You should look into the abyss more often
_________________

I'm In LOVE!
[ Parent ]

Mil-surp weapons (none / 1) (#39)
by Nimey on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 11:35:08 AM EST

You might add in that military-surplus rifles can be excellent buys for cheap hunting.  One can, for example, find a decent Mosin-Nagant M38 or M44 carbine for a little under $100, and it's pretty small and light.  Ammunition's decently cheap as well, but you'll probably have to buy that off the Internet.

Gun shows and garage sales can also be good places to buy cheap guns, but caveat emptor.
--
Never mind, it was just the dog cumming -- jandev
You Sir, are an Ignorant Motherfucker. -- Crawford
I am arguably too manic to do that. -- Crawford
I already fuck my mother -- trane
Nimey is right -- Blastard
i am in complete agreement with Nimey -- i am a pretty big deal

Repost as topical (none / 0) (#40)
by GhostOfTiber on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 11:51:51 AM EST

I don't have enough experience with the Mosin, etc to really pick out a keeper from a pile of them. The Box of Truth seems to have a pretty low opinion of most of them: "You get what you pay for". But, if you wanted to put together an informative comment, it would help greatly.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

The secret to finding a good one, (3.00 / 4) (#49)
by Nimey on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 02:41:56 PM EST

at least in a pile, depends on what you're looking for.  If you're a collector, you are looking for matching serial numbers on the barrel (aft of the rear sight), the bolt, magazine floorplate, and buttplate.  Mine is force-matched, meaning that the Soviet armorer crossed out the original serials on all but the barrel and wrote the barrel's serial in with an electric pencil, and is not as valuable.  You would also look for unusual and/or higher-quality variants, such as the Finnish Mosins, or ones made in the USA in 1917-1918, or post-WW2 Polish M44s.

But that's out of scope for this article.  If I found someone selling a pile of Mosins and was just wanting a cheap hunting arm, I'd want to bring a couple of tools with me: a bore light and a headspace gauge (both of which are pretty cheap).

First use the bore light (or even just a small flashlight) to check all the bores for rust and how much rifling is left.  Mine is rust-free and was probably not used after it was arsenal-refinished, but the rifling is worn away so it's not terribly accurate.  Note that if a rifle has good rifling but is "frosted" with what looks like white corrosion, it's probably still a good shooter.

I would then look at the bolt faces and check for pitting.  Once you've winnowed this far, pull out the headspace gauge, put it in the chamber, and try to close the bolt on it.  Mainly you're concerned with too much headspace, so I'd buy a so-called no-go or field gauge.  If the bolt closes and locks on the gauge, it's probably too worn and you could have a cartridge detonate on you.  Field gauges are a little larger and are meant to test used guns, so between a no-go and a field gauge, you should be OK with a field one.  Note that headspace gauges are specific to a type of gun and caliber, so your Mosin gauge won't work with a Mauser.

You'd also want to check the rest of the gun for rust, how much bluing is left, if everything works mechanically[1], and if the stock is cracked.  I had to oil the joints in mine's magazine to get it to feed properly, but it was otherwise OK.  The Box O' Truth has a pretty good article on refinishing milsurp guns if yours needs bluing or a crack repaired, or if you want to re-finish the stock.

So you've bought your cheap Mosin or other cheap milsurp rifle.  Now you have to find ammunition.  Some calibers, like 7.5mm Swiss and to a lesser extent the Mosin's 7.62x54R, are all but impossible to find in a physical store, so you have to visit the Internet.  I buy most of mine from AIM Surplus, but if you search Google for your caliber you're sure to find something.  Most civilian loadings for ex-military calibers are non-corrosive; that is, the primers aren't made with mercury fulminate and hence won't rust the bore if you don't clean it before you go home for the day.  Military-surplus cartridges usually are corrosive, excepting certain cartridges like Swiss GP11, and are full-metal jacket and so are illegal for hunting.  So I'll skip those.  But if you want some FMJ for target practice, it's best to get ammo with brass or copper-washed steel casings.  Czech FMJ has lacquer on steel cases, and that lacquer will heat up when fired and gunk up the bolt's inner workings if there's any cosmoline left in it.  BoT also has an article on removing cosmoline from surplus guns.

It's difficult (probably impossible) to find hollowpoint cartridges for Mosins and Swiss K31s, so I hunt with softnose.  It's not optimal but will still kill game quickly if you're a good shot.  I feed the Mosin with 180-grain Sellier & Bellot, but there are several other manufacturers.

Now you may be wondering about modifying the gun.  Don't.  These things are little bits of history and you shouldn't do anything that can't be reversed.  Don't saw the barrel down or drill the receiver for a scope mount.  That said, you can usually find non-destructive scope mounts for surplus rifles, often ones that replace the issue rear sight and take a pistol ("long eye relief") scope, and can be reversed if desired.  Modern synthetic sporter stocks can also be had.  I strongly recommend a roll-over butt pad of some sort for Mosin carbines, because they kick really hard and have a steel buttplate.  Mine is a Limbsaver and was worth every penny.

As to cleaning, mine came with the full Soviet cleaning kit, including the rod (mounted under the barrel), jag, muzzle guard, and oil/solvent can.  I recommend using a modern cleaning kit instead, because the jag in particular sucks and you can lose a patch down the barrel.  A brush and copper solvent are good to have.

[1] Mosin safeties are atrocious.  To operate, you must pull the cocking ring (back of the bolt) backwards and rotate it to the left.  To un-safe it you pull back and rotate right.  You have to pull fairly hard and the grip isn't all that great.  Swiss K31s have a similar safety but there's a "keyring" on the back, which makes it much easier to operate.
--
Never mind, it was just the dog cumming -- jandev
You Sir, are an Ignorant Motherfucker. -- Crawford
I am arguably too manic to do that. -- Crawford
I already fuck my mother -- trane
Nimey is right -- Blastard
i am in complete agreement with Nimey -- i am a pretty big deal

[ Parent ]

Mosin (3.00 / 1) (#61)
by Sairon on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 07:15:18 PM EST

Most of the Mosin-Nagant rifles I've looked at have been good enough to hunt with. I think it would be hard to go wrong. I'd prefer the M38 over the M44, because removing the bayonet from the M44 takes some work, and messes up the sighting.

I also use alot of S&B ammo. It seems they make good, consistent quality rounds with a relatively low cost. I've never used hollowpoints, and have never seen the need. My soft point ammo certainly kills whitetail deer. Sometimes, with poor aim, the damage is even bordering on excessive from my .270 Winchester. My father has had excellent results with the Barnes X-Bullet, which is all copper, in .243 Winchester.

I have to disagree on the non-modification. There are literally millions of Mosin-Nagant rifles out there, and most have not historically interesting. I've seen scout rifles, where an extended eye relief scope is mounted on them that work very well. If I ever build a next hunting rifle, that's what I'm doing.

There's also aperture (peep) sights for them made by Mojo Sights. These don't require permanent modification, and my experience with this style of sight on other rifles has been positive.

Having said all that, the Mosin-Nagant is a rough rifle for a new shooter and a new hunter. As you mentioned, it's not even fun or productive to practice with it after so many rounds. I've never hunted with mine, and I probably never will. Rifle hunting has almost become easy, and I've moved to blackpowder and open sight revolvers. Blackpowder is rough.

[ Parent ]

that's where I am (none / 0) (#65)
by GhostOfTiber on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 08:06:33 PM EST

If I've got a rifle, it's easy to be God Of The Woods. But, I'm sort of pissed at flintlock at the moment since the thing is temperamental. I may try hunting with a revolver since there's no functional failures with a revolver, it's all on the skill of the hunter to get in close enough to use it.

So the mosins, when you fire them, do you get an awesome fireball out the front of it?

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Just out of the carbines (none / 0) (#71)
by Nimey on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:37:25 PM EST

because the cartridge was designed with the much longer M91 in mind, and so the powder doesn't burn completely before coming out.

The M91 is about 54" long, while the M38 and M44 carbines are only 40".  M91s are pre-WW2 (1891 to ~1930) and hard to find, but there are loads of mid-length M91/30s (standard WW2 Soviet rifle) that don't have such a strong muzzle blast.
--
Never mind, it was just the dog cumming -- jandev
You Sir, are an Ignorant Motherfucker. -- Crawford
I am arguably too manic to do that. -- Crawford
I already fuck my mother -- trane
Nimey is right -- Blastard
i am in complete agreement with Nimey -- i am a pretty big deal

[ Parent ]

Why bother removing the bayonet? (none / 0) (#73)
by Nimey on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 03:53:04 PM EST

It's about a pound of extra weight, but that's not that much.

I don't think the Mosins are so rough, at least not once you've put a butt-pad on.  Not much you can do about the loud, though.  They're pretty easy to clean, though the bolt is a pain to disassemble.

Those Mojo sights are pretty neat.  They'd be a waste on my Mosin, but maybe useful on my K31.
--
Never mind, it was just the dog cumming -- jandev
You Sir, are an Ignorant Motherfucker. -- Crawford
I am arguably too manic to do that. -- Crawford
I already fuck my mother -- trane
Nimey is right -- Blastard
i am in complete agreement with Nimey -- i am a pretty big deal

[ Parent ]

Introducing New People to Hunting (3.00 / 9) (#41)
by Kingmaker on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 12:11:20 PM EST

Give them a 15 minute head start.

Obligatory advice: (none / 1) (#51)
by Enlarged to Show Texture on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 03:39:20 PM EST

When deer hunting, don't shoot spikes. Wait for a bigger one...


"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." -- Isaac Asimov
timely article (3.00 / 2) (#57)
by blackbart on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 08:15:28 PM EST

we could all use some "hunting" tips in the coming economic apocalypse.

"I use this dupe for modbombing and impersonating a highly paid government worker"
- army of phred

My buddy sent me a link yesterday (none / 1) (#58)
by GhostOfTiber on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 08:54:07 AM EST

on MSNBC, apparently people are stockpiling food.

That's the expensive route, I personally think it's much better to be in tune with the local ecology than stockpiling food. I guess it can't hurt though.

It's called the return to survivalism.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Yeah... (none / 1) (#62)
by Sairon on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 07:17:19 PM EST

someone asked me what I'd do if everything fell apart and there wasn't food. I replied, "Do what I enjoy: plant a garden, go hunting and fishing. Redneck paradise, really."

[ Parent ]
E-Learning Course (3.00 / 2) (#59)
by Wen Jian on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 01:06:32 PM EST

Here
It was an experiment in lulz. - Rusty
I've got two... (none / 0) (#63)
by Sairon on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 07:18:45 PM EST

squirrels in the fridge right now. That pot pie recipe is going to be handy.

YES (none / 0) (#64)
by GhostOfTiber on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 08:02:17 PM EST

I have yet to figure out how to get the ribs out without marring up the meat badly.

Also honorable mention was "squirrel wings" which my buddy suggested. Because wings are fried in butter, squirrel wings would be mighty tasty.

I really would love to shoot a white squirrel. Apparently they're as close as ohio.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

hay guyz (none / 1) (#66)
by loteck on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:19:42 PM EST

amidoinitrite lol.
--
"You're in tune to the musical sound of loteck hi-fi, the musical sound that moves right round. Keep on moving ya'll." -Mylakovich
"WHAT AN ETERNAL MOBIUS STRIP OF FELLATIATIC BANALITY THIS IS." -Harry B Otch

VERY VERY NICE DEER!!! (none / 0) (#67)
by GhostOfTiber on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:25:09 PM EST

Hattip if it's yours. Larger than anything I've even seen in a very long time.

Is that a tikka there?

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

no its not me (none / 1) (#68)
by loteck on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:32:10 PM EST

jesus you fail. the buck in that pic is just hoping that you left a round in the chamber of that high powered rifle that is pointed at your FACE.
--
"You're in tune to the musical sound of loteck hi-fi, the musical sound that moves right round. Keep on moving ya'll." -Mylakovich
"WHAT AN ETERNAL MOBIUS STRIP OF FELLATIATIC BANALITY THIS IS." -Harry B Otch

[ Parent ]
HAHAAHAH (none / 0) (#69)
by GhostOfTiber on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:34:18 PM EST

But I think it's a trick of the perspective, I think the gun is pointed well behind him. It's not like the gun is going to shoot itself anyway.

Anyway you fail for giving me such a huge boner.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

undermyne has a pic (none / 1) (#70)
by loteck on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 02:57:40 PM EST

of him scoring probably the largest rack i've ever seen anywhere. I don't know that the point count was that high but the sheer size was mutant-like.
--
"You're in tune to the musical sound of loteck hi-fi, the musical sound that moves right round. Keep on moving ya'll." -Mylakovich
"WHAT AN ETERNAL MOBIUS STRIP OF FELLATIATIC BANALITY THIS IS." -Harry B Otch

[ Parent ]
I would like to see it (none / 0) (#74)
by GhostOfTiber on Thu Oct 23, 2008 at 04:42:48 PM EST

I HAVE A BONER FOR RACKS.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Killer! (none / 1) (#76)
by ixian on Fri Oct 24, 2008 at 11:36:37 AM EST



SHAKE THAT BEAR (none / 0) (#80)
by Ruston Rustov on Mon Oct 27, 2008 at 02:32:57 AM EST

HOW TO

I had had incurable open sores all over my feet for sixteen years. The doctors were powerless to do anything about it. I told my psychiatrist that they were psychosomatic Stigmata - the Stigmata are the wounds Jesus suffered when he was nailed to the cross. Three days later all my sores were gone. -- Michael Crawford
Maybe tomorrow. -- Michael Crawford
As soon as she has her first period, fuck your daughter. -- localroger

Don't see the point (none / 0) (#81)
by rpresser on Mon Oct 27, 2008 at 04:16:34 PM EST

Don't like food that runs away from me
------------
"In terms of both hyperbolic overreaching and eventual wrongness, the Permanent [Republican] Majority has set a new, and truly difficult to beat, standard." --rusty
Lazy (none / 0) (#82)
by GhostOfTiber on Tue Oct 28, 2008 at 07:35:08 AM EST

I personally like to be reminded that I'm part of the food chain.

Also I love that show Bizarre Foods.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

New Hunter Safety Courses (none / 1) (#83)
by jhhayesii on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 07:24:01 AM EST

Hunter Safety Courses are just that "safety courses". They are not the least bit concerned about if you know how to to out and hunt game. They just want to make sure you don't kill people and things you are not supposed to.

Learning how to hunt is a whole 'nother course and would cost a lot of bucks.

The article is somewhat good I suppose if you are a hunter (which I am not). Also, I do not support hunting. We need to promote natural predators as part of the wildlife management plan. We are not the natural predators and stomping through the woods during hunting season is very artificial. Further, most people are not saving "penny one" doing this as there expenses to participate are significant.

I own guns and like to target shoot. I keep the guns for home defense. I don't need to hunt. I can think of many more non cruel things to do that are really entertaining. There is not really a great deal of difference between us and many of the other animals. I found the fox squirrel I kept for a pet to be quite amusing. I hand raised him from a foundling. He was a real member of the family. When he had to visit the vets, I'd set him on my shoulder walk out the door. drive to the vets, stand around in the office with him setting on my shoulder. Set him on the examination table where he would flop out and wait for the doctor. After 8 years he died of kidney failure. That was in 1995. I still miss that little fellow.

While at the shooting range one day I heard a couple of guys talk about being out hunting squirrels the week before. The were shooting 50 cal muzzle loaders. I asked what they were shooting the squirrels with. The said they had been using their 50 cal muzzel loaders. I commented that there would not be much left to eat and they replied that "Who was eating them".

That was many years ago, but the attitude of many hunters is, "I got this gun. I want to go out and kill something".

Consider this, an article I read a number of years ago discussed compared feral cats to domestic pet cats. It asked the question, "What is harder on wild life, the feral (domestic cat gone wild) cat or the domestic pet cat. The conclusion was that the domestic cat was harder on wild life. The reason they stated was the following:
The feral cat was plugged into the energy equation of the environment. It killed when it was hungry. The domestic pet was well fed and so was not hungry. It killed for entertainment. It was not concerned with conserving energy because its hunting activities did not have anything to do with acquiring food. The hunting activities were for entertainment only. A cat is put together to kill. That is how it earns it's living. It will figure out how to kill something just by being a cat and doing what cats do. I have many cats. I love cats. I'm not picking on cats. I'm just using them as an example.

Most hunters are not plugged into the energy equation of the environment that they hunt in. They hunt for entertainment. They may not be interested in eating their kill. Promoting the natural predators that live in the environment would be better for the environment.

In this day and age in the developed world, virtually all hunting is for entertainment purposes (of the particpiants). The governmental agencies that manage everything having to do with hunting generally developed from a previous game warden system. The purpose of that system was to control poaching (of the kings game). I can not legally keep a foundling infant squirrel a pet in most of the developed world without a special permit (which would be generally very difficult to get). Yet for a small fee I can go out and kill my daily limit when they are in season. A squirrel is considered to be a game animal. You know what, it the animal is not protected, endangered or a game animal I don't need any permit at all to kill it. If it's bothering me I am at liberty to do whatever I want to dispose of it. I still can not keep it as pet. If I keep a game animal as a pet the problems can be very great indeed if  I am charged with a crime. If it is a non game animal it may be a low fine, or nothing. Heaven forbid if I keep deer and am reported to the conservation officers (department of natural resources in some states) I will probably be in a lot of major trouble.

Many governments receive a fair amount of revenue from hunting permits and the whole industry surrounding hunting. They protect the interests of the small number of folks who actuall go out and kill animals for SPORT (entertainment - yes, you domestic cats).

I'm not plugged into the natural environment. I can go buy my food at the store. I like animals. I like to see them running around. I obtain absolutely no joy from being responsible for their suffering. I accept the fact the some animals have to die so that I may live. I don't have to like it. I don't have to add to it. I am plugged into my environment. It is not a natural environment but it is what we have built.

I would have to wonder at the mentality of anybody who likes to tramp through the woods hunting. The fear provoked by this act. It's not just reflexive.

My cat likes to sit on my lap. He is afraid of my son. My son does not understand the cat and his boundaries. If the cat and I are alone, he is quite comfortable. If he hears anybody moving around the house he turns to face his head in the direction of the noise. At this point he is very wary. If my son enters the area. he watches him carefully and is prepared to bolt if my son approahes us quickly. If he approaces slowly the cat calms down a bit, but still watches. If my wife enters the room it is no big deal. The cat is quite sensitive and capable of fine discrimination. He and I have a very good relationship, just as the squirrel and I had many years ago. Cats and squirrels can live together. Mine did.


Introducing New People to Hunting | 83 comments (70 topical, 13 editorial, 0 hidden)
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