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[P]
Apples to Oranges

By nononoitaintmebabe in Culture
Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 06:12:05 AM EST
Tags: education (all tags)

Much criticism is thrown in the direction of teacher unions.  Steve Jobs, one of the recent critics, blasts ""I believe that what is wrong with our schools in this nation is that they have become unionized in the worst possible way,"  "This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy."


This is probably the most levied charge against teacher unions-  that they protect incompetence among their member ranks.   Also often charged is that their interests lie not with the students their members teach, but with employee concerns.  

To this second charge, I think the defense is in the definition.  A labor union is not formed to protect a third party's interests or advocacy, it is formed to protect and advocate for a labor force.  I'm not sure that more really needs to be said about that.  You really can't get any more "American" than that.  

To answer the charge of protecting incompetence among the ranks of teachers, let's take a closer look at some hypothetical situations.   Teacher A begins teaching.  She is evaluated by an administrator.  The administrator may note  shortcomings in that teacher's performance.

If there are shortcomings cited, the administrator may exercise his or her judgment that with time and support that this teacher will improve. It may be decided that the contract will not be renewed. There is no tenure, so there is nothing to stop that. It depends on the administrator's judgment.  He or she may devise an improvement plan for Teacher A.   Teacher A may very well improve with age and experience and mentor and administrative support.  That's a great outcome for all.  

So now let's take Teacher B.  Teacher B begins her career.  She is also evaluated with some shortcomings,  but this time by an administrator who simply doesn't have the desire or the talent to develop and oversee an improvement plan.  This administrator in fact, may be quite sure that his/her niece or his/her nephew should have the job, so he or she can fairly simply dispose of this non-tenured teacher without giving her a chance to improve.  It may not be fair, but it can and does happen at times.   The key being that the administrator in question must act before the teacher becomes tenured.   There really isn't anything that a teacher's union can or should be able to do in this instance, even if the termination would be, in fact, unfair next to Teacher A's situation.  But I'm not really sure the blame should be cast at the unions.  The problem would seem to be with the caliber of administrator.  

So,  let's use another example-  Teacher C.  Teacher C has tenure.  She's been teaching for 12 years when suddenly, simultaneously she inherits a  particular class of students who have traditionally been low achievers (for whatever reason) and a new administrator comes to the helm of her school.    In fact the reason that Teacher C has been assigned this particular group of individuals by the former administrator is because in the past she has shown strong performance in helping low achievers succeed.  But this particular year, perhaps despite her best efforts, she isn't able to help her students raise their test scores.  The new administrator may decide he just doesn't like her and he may decide on the basis of these scores that he'd like to bring someone new in.

It may be that one of her students happens to have a "Steve Jobs" for a parent and our Steve happens to have a child with an IQ of 70 and he's angry that his child is performing more like a PC than a MAC.   So our Steve goes in to complain.   Steve's a big important business guy so he WILL be listened to by the administrator and the school board. Without tenure, the teacher would have no recourse but to accept the terms of her reassignment or even her dismissal. Why shouldn't a labor union be able to protect teacher C?  

Now, many people who are not in the teaching profession would say "Tough, we don't have that security in our professions."   To that I would answer that perhaps there is no other profession where a worker's experience level meets up so squarely with the need for consistency.  It's been my personal observation that most any teacher and even the really great ones will tell you that they made many and huge mistakes in their first years as teachers. This perhaps makes the case for better training and the need for more intensive "internships" or "mentorships "  for new teachers, but I don't see that it makes the case for the dissolution of teachers unions or their powers.  

In fact, to the contrary, I think it makes the case that we need our teacher unions to provide a cushion of protection for a teacher until she gets on her feet. I think the cushion protects the teacher from being unfairly judged by a specific populations' test scores or achievement or other even more arbitrary factors such as lousy administrators or poor mentoring.  

It's different in Steve Job's world.   If "MacBuddy ComputerBuilder" continually doesn't build computers with the quality of a Mac, Steve-o is within his rights to fire MacBuddy. However, I think we can assume that MacBuddy is presented with the exact same quality of raw materials and a set of specific directions for assembly and a protected "caseload."   I do not believe that a teacher has that uniformity of raw materials or that specific of an assembly manual, or any control over how many students are placed in his or her care.      

But ok, what about Teacher D?  Teacher D is a disaster.  How she ever made it into the ranks of teaching might only be explained by her bra size and that all her professors and  administrators have been male.  She has tenure. Year after year, her students score dismally low on the state standardized tests.    Her new administrator cannot fire her because currently you can't fire on the basis of test scores.  

That's what Steve Jobs is upset about.   I can see that.  Almost anyone could.  But don't you think that Steve Jobs would be smart enough to see that the problem lies in the administrative failure of not canning a teacher when he or she did not yet have tenure and in the evaluation procedure itself?   Can he not see that test scores are not necessarily the measure of teacher?   Has it not occurred to him that it's not that simple to evaluate people in human service fields?  

Steve Jobs seems to be a pretty bright individual.  You have to wonder why his judgment seems to fail him here.   You have to wonder why he doesn't have anything else to suggest in terms of creating better teachers or in better ways of evaluating what is an effective teacher.  You have to wonder also why he and his buddies in the business world and in the legislative world really never stop to ask the experts in the education field what their thoughts are in coming up with a better way.  Instead they just get up on their "tree stumps" and criticize and profess to know the answers.  

This brings up the subject of merit pay.  My guess is that Steve and his buddies are upset that teachers unions are almost uniformly against this.   They are upset that teachers unions hold the right of collective bargaining.

But let's examine this nightmare for a moment.  Without collective bargaining, teachers would each individually go in and bargain for their own contracts.  What a nightmare of administrative time and effort would go into such a process!  What a nightmare of nepotism and job-jumping a system like this would create! Even while it might make some individual situations better, on the whole, I don't think it's hard to see the chaos that it would create in an organization.    

I once had a friend who was the CEO of a medical device company.  In the region where his company was located, he had competition for labor from one other company.  His company and the other company continually competed back and forth for the workers. It was playing havoc with production. Finally, his solution to this was to go meet with the other CEO and say "Hey, we are cutting our own throats here all the time, let's agree to keep wages roughly the same so the labor force won't continually jump back and forth between our ships."   Essentially I believe that if we cut out collective bargaining we create a nightmare not just for teachers but also for the administration and the field of education in general.    

There are other problems I see with merit or even "need-based" pay.  I'll use an example to illustrate one of them.  Say there is a truly outstanding chemistry teacher at a high school who wins all kinds of teaching awards, some based on his students' performances and there is a huge shortage of science teachers at the secondary level.  It might seem logical to award him more money based on his subject area and also because he's so outstanding.    Maybe that teacher does need to be recognized in some way, but if you think about it, how can you give this person credit and not also recognize that more than likely farther back down the line in those students' school careers, they had a really great first grade teacher or a really great middle school teacher? How is it fair to compensate this teacher but not the other? Don't those teachers who provide the foundation deserve a lot of credit for having those students well prepared for the high school class? This is one issue that teacher's unions must contemplate that merit pay does not address.  

What's the answer then?  Could it be that it lies within the realm of raising teacher pay in general and making the education degree a more rigorous and more competitive area of study?   Would that perhaps raise the caliber of teacher applicants?   My guess is that it would.   Why doesn't a bright guy like Steve Jobs get that?  In his own business, my guess is that he recognizes the need to pay pretty highly for critical positions, in order to attract superior candidates.   So why doesn't he see that here?  

Robert Scoble seems to get it.  Listen to what he has to say..  "If you want better schools, pay teachers $80,000 a year or more, AND give the staff power to get rid of bad apples  and you'll see school quality turn around in an instant."  

Scoble seems to get the principle of offering more to get quality, even though the second part of his statement "give staff the power to get rid of bad apples"  conveys a little bit of short-sightedness or maybe impatience or naievity.  I say this because if there aren't teacher unions to advocate for higher pay and to guarantee fairness for all of the labor force they represent, then who exactly is going to advocate for it?  Would an individual teacher without the clout of an Apple executive have much power?

It's all good and fine for people to say "Well if we give teacher's more pay, then the unions should give us more control,"  but can't anyone see the shortsightedness of this?   If that happens, then what is there, or who is there to guarantee that after raising the pay, that the pay will stay at competitive levels to other fields?   There wouldn't be much incentive for a cash strapped school district to keep pay competitive, would there?   It would more than likely escalate into the case of one "CEO" calling up another to say "hey, let's keep wages the same so no one has incentive to jump ship."   There also wouldn't be much incentive to assure that all evaluations and dismissals are handled fairly.   Nepotism could easily become the order of the day.  

I maintain that if you keep collective bargaining and the protection of  teachers' rights in place and raised teacher pay all around to a more competitive level, then maybe not within an instant, but I bet within a generation, we'd see that school turn-around that Scoble envisions.   Yes, you might lose some individual students while waiting, but on the other hand, I'm not sure some rich computer geek's criticism of teachers unions is going to get us "there" any faster, or at all.   What it does is create more distraction from very real problems by misidentifying the cause.  You can't pretend that an orange is an apple.  

I'm a personal admirer of Mr. Jobs.  I admire him for building computers with operating systems that probably outperform this Pc that I'm typing on.  However, my respect for him stops at his ability to manage a computer business.   If he wants to help create a stronger workforce, he needs to see that that teacher unions are not really his enemy.      

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Apples to Oranges | 124 comments (106 topical, 18 editorial, 5 hidden)
This egalitarian (2.00 / 2) (#3)
by Morally Inflexible on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:03:35 PM EST

focus on educating all children to a minimal level hampers those students who are capable of becoming scientists and engineers.   If we had a system where the 'nerds' can go off to a different school, maybe we would have more children competing academically, rather than competing over who can pretend to be the least academic.  

oh i don't know (none / 1) (#6)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:14:52 PM EST

i personally know of a nobel peace prize winner in the area of science (back before al gore when nobel's meant something) who was educated in a local public school.  

[ Parent ]
eh, I went to a public school as well (none / 1) (#8)
by Morally Inflexible on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:23:36 PM EST

for most of my education, and I have a decent Engineering job.  Certainly, if you have the 'fuck you, I'll do what I want' attitude towards your peers, it doesn't hold you back all that much.  But I know several people who would have been better Engineers than I am who went to school with me who decided not to pursue a technical career/education, mostly because of social pressures.  

But then, I went to one of the worst high schools in the state.  I'm aware it's not as bad elsewhere-  but where I went to school, there was an extremely high social cost to focusing on academics, and this did cause some people to choose to waste their potential.  I theorize that if those people instead went to a school with others interested in academics, they likely would have likely done much better.



[ Parent ]

and i would answer you (none / 0) (#9)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:30:14 PM EST

that better teachers or even just one at a critical point for a child would have made the difference for some of your classmates.  

my problem with mr. jobs is that he blames the unions for the lack of good teachers. i feel that's a strawman of an argument.  

[ Parent ]

yeah, good teachers help (none / 1) (#10)
by Morally Inflexible on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:53:32 PM EST

my point was that if you stick a culturally-sensitive person (that is a person who is less selfish than say, me -  you know, a person who actually cares what other people think)  in a culture where learning is seen as an activity for chumps and losers, they aren't going to put much effort into learning.  

Even the highschool I went to had some positive learning experiences;  I mean, there was a programming class that brought me from knowing a little basic to the point where I could get a .com job as a programmer (granted, this was the late '90s, so we're not talking of a high degree of skill, but it got the job done.)  I think I can credit that teacher with quite a lot.  

But how many children, some of whom may have been smarter than I am, avoided those classes because of the stigma of eating lunch with the dorks in computer lab?   How many more of the smart kids would have reached their potential if there wasn't a stigma attached to thinking that your implementation of the towers of hanoi problem was really cool?  

I know schools like that exist;  I work with a disproportionately large number of people who went to such schools.



[ Parent ]

i understand your point- (none / 1) (#11)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 08:06:15 PM EST

what i'm saying is that each and every public school has the potential to be that. but it's not going to happen if the pay for teachers does not attract better teachers.  but what i'm also saying is that blaming teacher unions for not being able to get rid of bad teachers is not really what is preventing schools from being better.  

[ Parent ]
anecdotes make for terrible arguments // (none / 0) (#40)
by The Hanged Man on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 06:37:11 PM EST


-------------

Dificile est saturam non scribere - Juvenal
[ Parent ]
you have a point. (3.00 / 2) (#64)
by Morally Inflexible on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 03:18:44 AM EST

but what do you have to offer instead of anecdotes?

It is difficult to gauge the quality of education a person received- many of the effects don't show up until years later, and not everyone has the same goal for education; some people want to teach children how to make money; others want to teach them values, (and, of course, everyone disagrees on what a 'value' is) still others have this notion that school can teach a child "how to think"

So yeah, my personal experience is not statistically significant. But I don't see better data laying about, or even a clear definition of what 'good schooling' is. (maybe I'm not looking hard enough?)

[ Parent ]

public schools should make good citizens (none / 1) (#71)
by N0574 on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 09:45:31 AM EST

that's their real purpose. The more learned and smart they become the better off we are as a country, but they must also learn our basic civic values in school too. These values include the belief that public debate, free and open speech, democratic deliberation, and participation in the process of government are inherently important/valuable things. If they fail that you might as well send your kids to private schools. Or at least that's my take on it.

As for teaching students how to think, Confucius had it right to some extent: "If a student is not eager, I won't teach him; if he is not struggling with the truth, I won't reveal it to him. If I lift up one corner and he can't come back with the other three, I won't do it again." 「不憤不啓, 不悱 不發。擧一隅不以三隅 反, 則不復也。」link

Unlike C, it seems it's my fate to do it again and again and...Sometimes I'd be happy if they came back with just two or at least one corner.


- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]

at a parent teacher (none / 1) (#83)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 06:43:59 PM EST

conference once i was told by the teacher that my son was not trying, he had a bad attitude, and that his work wasn't up to his potential.  

none of that was news to me. he was in middle school and he'd gone from being a kid who gave his best in all areas of school to only caring about friends, girls, and sports.  (don't ask me to rank the order.)

so i tell the teacher, "well if he's got a bad attitude, you have my permission to deal with the behavior. if he turns in work that deserves an F, give him an F."

"well i don't want him to fail and he doesn't really do anything wrong, you can just tell he's got a bad attitude. But i don't want to see him fail" she said.

and here's the part where if i could change my answer i would.  what i said was "well i appreciate that."  

because what i believe happened then was that she lightened up on him. i didn't see any improvement in his work- just better grades.

 what i should have said was "let him fail, show him that if he turns in unacceptable work or bombs a test, there are consequences."  

and what i should have done in light of the fact that i didn't say that was go home and tell the kid that i wanted to hear something different from the teacher at the next pt conference or else i was going to pull him from his sports teams.  

i think the problem is that we expect too much from some kids and not enough from others.

and i understand the sentiment behind the quote, but quite honestly, i think we have to do a little better than that for kids, because human nature leans towards doing what is fun, what is easy,  what we are interested in, and in what we excell- and that's what lots of kids are going to do.  unless we adults pull "it" out of them and expect more.  kids can't see the bigger picture or the future or the long view very well- adults should. and they should be guiding kids to see it.  

[ Parent ]

You've a great point. (2.00 / 2) (#94)
by Jambeeno on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 07:55:00 AM EST

Most of the problems inherent in our public schools exist because of the top-down approaches to solving issues.

Can't tell how kids are performing?  Standardized test.  Kids dress like pimps and whores and distract their peers?  Dress code.  Students are under-performing?  Evaluate their teachers.

It's all quite ridiculous, really.  You smacked the nail on the head with a sledgehammer when you said that adults should be responsible for their kids.  

Teachers should not be responsible for seeing to it that their students all reach a baseline level of motivation such that they'll be able & willing to absorb information & skill & appreciate the value thereof.  They should be responsible for providing information about & insight into whatever field or craft they're teaching.

I graduated high school in 2006, and I couldn't help but notice that at least a quarter of my peers still hadn't learned how to learn.  They knew how to cull information from a source -- a book, the internet, lecture notes, whatever -- and regurgitate it, perhaps spinning it a bit and adding the minimal amount of personal insight necessary to pass it off as non-plagiarized.

The most important faculty one most possess before being able to benefit from the style of teaching found in most public school settings is interpretive skill.  Anybody can be a scribe, but it takes the ability to interpret to acquire information, apply it, and then comprehend & appreciate the value of application (regardless of whether they like the application or not -- for example, I hated Statistics class because I had no desire to be a statistician or do any work involving complex math, but I still appreciated what I learned because it deepened my understanding of the processes undertaken by our government, by insurance agents, etc).

The best set of teachers in the world can't do anything unless the students they're handed benefited from good parenting to get them ready for the teachers.

[ Parent ]

I remember (none / 0) (#99)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 09:07:47 PM EST

my first year of college, thinking that college was the easiest thing ever.  i'd learned to manage my time well because my parents insisted on that when i was still home. and i was used to it. and i'd already learned the advantages of it.

 but what absolutely floored me was the number of people around me that were drowning. at the time i couldn't figure out how people who had gotten accepted to college could possibly be that stupid. but now i look back on it and i realize what a gift my parents gave me by making me learn to be responsible.

and i guess what scares me is that i see less and less and less parents that are like mine were. in fact, i really think that my parents did a much better job with me than i did with my own kids.  

[ Parent ]

California used to have that (3.00 / 2) (#13)
by MichaelCrawford on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:14:08 PM EST

It was called the Mentally Gifted Minors program. I qualified for it as a result of an IQ test. It enabled me to get all sorts of enriched education that most students didn't get.

It was terminated in my school district in my freshman year of high school. I don't know whether that was statewide or just our district. It would have been in '78.


--
Looking for some free songs?


[ Parent ]

raising the pay (none / 0) (#4)
by Morally Inflexible on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:11:41 PM EST

means that more people (both competent and incompetent) will apply for the job. While it's true that low pay acts as something of a negative filter in general, as the competent folks can go elsewhere- but from what I have seen, private school, in general, pays a *lot* less than public school, so I'm not exactly sure where a super-competent teacher would go for more money, unless their compitence is generalizable to something that isn't teaching.

I think that raising pay won't do much for the quality of applicants unless you apply some sort of competence filter to choose only those applicants who are or can become good teachers.

That said, determining competency is difficult at the best of times, and I think it is even harder when it comes to teaching. The influence of a good teacher can show up years later- and often the quality of education a student receives depends more on what peers she or he is given than it does upon the teachers.

raising the pay (none / 0) (#7)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:17:44 PM EST

would allow the employer to have a wider choice of candidates to choose from.  the hope being that with more competition, they could make better choices in employees.  but yes, i agree- raising the level of education required and standards for teacher applicants would also help the cause.

[ Parent ]
lol (none / 0) (#38)
by chlorus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 06:16:52 PM EST

pay is hardly an effective incentive in attracting the right people for a job. are the US Navy SEALs millionaires? the Diplomatic Corps? no.

if i had kids, i would much rather have someone passionate about their job teaching them than someone looking to cash in on a fat paycheck and virtually guaranteed job security.

Peahippo: Coked-up internet tough guy or creepy pedophile?
[ Parent ]

The system is broken (none / 0) (#121)
by netrek on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 03:42:02 PM EST

Listen, I live in PA where 90% of public school teachers with 10 years teaching make $60,000! That is for 9 months of work. I wager that would rival the pay for even most engineering fields! And they get fully paid health care whilst almost all other employers are either not offering health care benefits at all or making the employee pay a substantially higher monthly premium (another very broken American system). And public school teachers are one of the few groups left that enjoy an excellent fully funded pension plan (yes pension not 401k etc.). I think we need true competition and a fair market price. Right now there is severe salary inflation. My sister has been trying to get a full time teaching job for the past 5 years. She had excellent grades, good teacher references but she is stuck subbing because the teachers around here don't want to retire. Many are in their 60s and still teaching, every year they hold out the pension they'll receive increases. By almost any metric you want to use the US public education system is failing. We spend the most money per child than anyone else yet we routinely rank low in standardized achievement tests compared to other countries. Russia and China kick our ass and some of their teachers are not even paid for months at a time, and when they do get paid it isn't much, and they have to teach students in 40, 50, even 60 year old run down buildings sometimes with no running water, and with old textbooks and no computers, no internet etc. There is no shortcut to academic success. Anecdotally I see many middle and high school students around here who spend maybe 1 hour a night on homework! The home environment is a big factor in why we are failing so bad IMHO. 90% of black kids are living in a single parent (mother) home. Also culturally we don't place a very high value on education. Look at sports and entertainment figures, that is where we place the highest value culturally. In Japan parents work extra jobs just to send their kids to high quality  tutoring schools. Let teacher pay indexed against performance. And not the bogus type we see going on in some states where they are dropping huge chunks of the curriculum and are teaching students how to pass the No Child Left Behind mandated tests! They are literally giving them and drilling on the answers. Great lets have a generation that has poor critical thinking and analysis skills yet can rote memorize! Most students I've encountered even at the university level really do not care much about learning. They learn only what they must to get a satisfactory grade so they can get their degree and get a good paying job. Learning is nothing more than a means to an end for most people. How to instill a true love of knowledge and learning as its own reward is a much tougher problem.
"An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason." -- C.S. Lewis
[ Parent ]
Two bad but common assumptions (2.50 / 4) (#15)
by michaelmalak on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:31:31 AM EST

"Teacher unions" have at their root two bad but common assumptions:
  1. That the government should be involved in education
  2. That government employees may legitimately unionize


--
BergamoAcademy.com  Authentic Montessori in Denver
it still means... (none / 1) (#16)
by khallow on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:05:27 AM EST

teacher unions are one of the causes of the problem of poorly educated students.

Stating the obvious since 1969.

unions are not good in some situations (2.12 / 8) (#19)
by circletimessquare on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:11:44 AM EST

unions make a lot of sense when monopolists employ pinkertons men against starving poor overworked souls with little other job opportunities

the gilded age of victorian times, when unions rose into prominence

but the socioeconomic situation is different now

when you are dealing with a largely middle class population, in a relatively healthy economy, it pays less to fight to improve your working conditions than it is to simply find another job that pays better and with better working conditions elsewhere. you have other job choices

note: if you have a job, and you don't think you could be doing any better anywhere else, that kind of says to me that you are overpaid and underqualified. most anyone of average intelligence and skills can move horizontally to another profession or job and do roughly the same economically in a moderately health economy. but if you think you can't do that, you're sort of overpaid deadwood, aren't you?

in fact nowadays, when unions strike, you see less sympathy for the unions from the average joe, simply because they don't see union members as helpless poor workers fighting for their rights, so much as undeserving and overpaid extortion artists using a bully pulpit to extend their lofty priveledges. note the striking transit workers in france, strike happy union happy socialist france: the last time around they struck they actually won more sympathy for sarkozy. imagine that

not that this applies to teachers so much, teachers are woefully underpaid. but the overrriding lesson is that teachers would do more to improve the situation of teachers by simple getting a teaching job somewhere else, or moving into a better paying job, like paralegal, than depending upon misplaced union tactics

nursing for example

nurses are like teachers in that their jobs are vital, but unappreciated. however, nurses get paid a hell of a lot more than teachers. because the shortage of nursing candidates makes an economic incentive to raise salaries and consideration

likewise, teachers would do better if they simply left the profession: they themselves would move into careers that make more money, and they would pave the way for higher salaries for the next crop of teachers moving in to replace them by demonstrating that no one is going to work that job without some respect

in other words, voting with your feet and leaving the teaching profession satisfies the goal of unions better than unions can. more consideration and respect, but done without the role of a union at all


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

but what if you got a crawl up effect (none / 1) (#51)
by livus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 10:13:08 PM EST

I mean, qualifieds leaving a profession en masse is more likely to mean lower and lower calibre people step in to fill that role. Or immigration to fill it.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
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I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
filipina nurses in the usa (2.00 / 2) (#58)
by circletimessquare on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 01:00:09 AM EST

make 60K fresh off the boat, set their own hourly schedules, and get a signing bonus, even in hawaii

because the population is aging, and american liberal arts majors don't want to touch a bedpan. guess they'd rather blog about lame their mcjob is. see, if they touch a bedpan, all of the cultural minutaie they think is som important to the world functioning might go poof

but the joke is on the fucking americans with 30K college debt and a 30K job, who think they are superior to the filipina nurse, who works three 12 hours shifts, takes home 70K, and then takes 4 days off, every week

and why it this way in the usa? because precious american snowflakes don't want to touch a bedpan. fucking spoiled stupid rich morons

actually, the filipina nurses i know work two jobs, 6 days of 12 hour days, take home $140K, work their asses for 4 years, invest it all in real estate, and then rent it out to precious snowflake liberal art major americans making 30K

the rich western turds of the world. jokes on them


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

some of that goes back to the Filipines, yes? (none / 1) (#59)
by livus on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 01:27:12 AM EST

yeah it's awesome, but not perfect in a way, in terms of how there's not always much of a choice to stay behind available - if you're the one who has to support the family, you have to go work where the jobs are.

NZ is hilarious, by rights we should be a third world country but we want to be a western one, so we train up all our med staff etc under huge student loans and then they run off overseas where the pay's better and we import a whole lot of Brits and USians etc to fill the gap.

 

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

filipinos love new zealand (none / 1) (#67)
by circletimessquare on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 07:43:33 AM EST

i've actually advised a few to go there instead of the usa

hell, i'd rather be in new zealand than the usa

you kiwis are at the end of the world. i know you hate it. but you have no idea how wonderful that is for you, saved from warring neighbors, al qaeda, etc.

just do me a favor: when the bird flu/ al qaeda nukes/ whatever wipes out the northern hemisphere, preserve k5 in transcript, so that future generations may know the glory of k5, the ultimate expression of human civilization. amen


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

We are actually hiring Philipinos to teach (none / 1) (#72)
by Calalily on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 09:55:46 AM EST

Math and Science now. These are critical shortage areas all over the US.
RUN LITTLE RATS, RUN!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAH! There is no escape. THERE IS NO ESCAPE. by Sgt York on Mon Dec 17, 2007
[ Parent ]
yup. indians too (none / 1) (#74)
by circletimessquare on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:31:10 AM EST

americans would rather watch teevee, so the jobs go to foreigners. then americans complain about jobs they didn't want to do in the first place going to foreigners. spoiled useless retards

i have absolutely no respect for the loud useless spoiled children of the west. no respect for the culture and government that raised them, no persepective on what really matters and what is really worth fighting for in this world. they take for granted what was hard fought for them and hard earned, and think they are entitled to it without any effort. useless flotsam and jetsam whose sole purpose is to fight for pointless issues like animal rights and then die, forgotten and wasted dead ends of history. the children of the west: loud, useless, stupid paris hiltons


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Bravo! Well said. n/t (1.50 / 2) (#76)
by Calalily on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 01:51:24 PM EST


RUN LITTLE RATS, RUN!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAH! There is no escape. THERE IS NO ESCAPE. by Sgt York on Mon Dec 17, 2007
[ Parent ]
You sound angry.$ (none / 1) (#111)
by V on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 05:51:03 AM EST


---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]
i'm always angry you useless piece of shit (none / 1) (#113)
by circletimessquare on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 07:29:38 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
i was just sitting here (none / 1) (#114)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 08:17:34 PM EST

wondering about where you've been lately.  

[ Parent ]
Want a FREE stress test?$ (3.00 / 2) (#115)
by V on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 10:10:20 PM EST


---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]
yeah, my city has a huge Pasifik population (none / 1) (#81)
by livus on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 06:38:50 PM EST

in fact, we have the highest Polynesian population of any city in the world. I like living here.

Maybe we should carve k5 in its entirety into some stone tablets.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

rapa nui ultranationalism (2.00 / 2) (#92)
by circletimessquare on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 05:27:29 AM EST

SWEEP DA KIWI INVADER AWAY

(tongue waggling, eyes wide)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

tu meke bro (none / 1) (#96)
by livus on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 03:38:54 PM EST

tino rangatiratanga!!! Brown Aotearoa by 2100.

 

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

I'm not sure where you are getting this (none / 1) (#60)
by Morally Inflexible on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 02:26:44 AM EST

'teachers are horribly paid' thing... I mean, unless you forget that they only work 9 months out of the year.  As far as hourly rates go, teachers (well, public school teachers, private school teachers, from what I understand, don't do as well)  get paid fairly well.

[ Parent ]
alright, point well taken (none / 0) (#68)
by circletimessquare on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 07:44:56 AM EST

then they should shut up, or risk being perceived like transit unions: an extortion racket, rather than a worker's rights protectorate


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Where are people getting the four months off? (none / 0) (#73)
by Calalily on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:01:30 AM EST

Teachers usually work 10 months or more and attend training during their down time as well as work summer school and tutoring to earn extra money to help makes ends meet. And there are some schools that are year round now. Many teachers work on their own time grading papers and preparing lessons at night and on the weekends They also have to attend a myriad of functions,  meetings, and trainings before, during, and after school.
RUN LITTLE RATS, RUN!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAH! There is no escape. THERE IS NO ESCAPE. by Sgt York on Mon Dec 17, 2007
[ Parent ]
3 months, not 4. (none / 0) (#90)
by Morally Inflexible on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:40:17 PM EST

(though they do have a generous holiday schedule and days off to prepare (I wish I got days off to prepare) I would say their less-flexible schoolyear vacation options cancel those) yeah, some teachers work extra; like any salary job, some teachers put in more time than others. In k-12, they only have kids 8:00-15:00, so the've got another two hours to prepare before they start cutting into personal time. Few teachers match the average software developer when it comes to personal time spent on training and unpaid overtime.

I'm not saying it's not a important job, or that there aren't great teachers who should be recognized, I'm just saying the pay is in line with the other opportunities open to many of these people.

[ Parent ]

The Problem With Education (1.50 / 2) (#21)
by Corwin06 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:06:05 AM EST

http://johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm

Okay, done with commenting. and NOW I'm going to read the story.

"and you sir, in an argument in a thread with a troll in a story no one is reading in a backwater website, you're a fucking genius
--circletimessquare
thanks for adding zero insight, cocknozzle (1.50 / 2) (#22)
by chlorus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:13:57 AM EST


Peahippo: Coked-up internet tough guy or creepy pedophile?
[ Parent ]

You don't either nt (none / 0) (#23)
by Corwin06 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:17:29 AM EST


"and you sir, in an argument in a thread with a troll in a story no one is reading in a backwater website, you're a fucking genius
--circletimessquare
[ Parent ]
I WASN'T PRETENDING TO, SHITBAG (2.50 / 6) (#24)
by chlorus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:19:16 AM EST

you, however, waltz on in here with your trendy name-dropping and zero demonstration that you've understood the aforementioned material or even read it. "just go read this" is of no use to me or anyone else.

Peahippo: Coked-up internet tough guy or creepy pedophile?
[ Parent ]

You can't get any more American than that (3.00 / 7) (#25)
by Scrymarch on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 10:30:42 AM EST

I must respectfully disagree with this assertion. It is my considered opinion that a teacher's union, of any size, is at least ten times less American than one single pissed off radioactive bald eagle.

Twenty times if the eagle is pecking out an Indian's eye, while smoking a cigar.

who's smoking the cigar, the indian or the eagle? (1.50 / 2) (#32)
by nanodroid on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:16:43 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Clearly the eagle /nt (3.00 / 3) (#42)
by spooked on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:54:34 PM EST



Seriously.
[ Parent ]
the most American thing ever = american cheese. n (none / 1) (#50)
by livus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 10:10:55 PM EST



---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
well when i was (3.00 / 4) (#55)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 10:40:58 PM EST

writing this, i was thinking "American as apple pie"  but i decided not to put another dumb pun into it.  

[ Parent ]
American cheese? (none / 0) (#93)
by Corwin06 on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 05:30:05 AM EST

WTF? You Americans learned to make cheese how? Only the French an Italians know how to make good cheese (except the british Blue Stilton)...
"and you sir, in an argument in a thread with a troll in a story no one is reading in a backwater website, you're a fucking genius
--circletimessquare
[ Parent ]
I'm not even an American, fool (none / 0) (#97)
by livus on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 03:51:47 PM EST

and you need to find out what "American cheese" actually is to understand the content of what I just said. Here.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
-1: Total crap (2.50 / 4) (#26)
by GhostOfTiber on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 11:03:32 AM EST

Frankly, the teachers union exists only to strong arm more money from the taxpayers.

I'm not terribly sympathetic to a group of people that starts at $80k a year, gets four months off, then tries to sell me some raft of crap about how they need protection against "bad bosses".

Boo-fucking-hoo, everyone has to put up with bad management, but not everyone gets four months out of the year off. If I had my way, I'd just gas them and start over. Anyone who says the "u word" gets it.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne

Where do teacher's start at 80k? They usually (none / 0) (#28)
by Calalily on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:22:33 PM EST

start much lower 40-50k and may get a sign-on bonus if it's in a high need area like math, science, or special ed. And th monster children that now attend school, with parents that say the little Johnnie or Joanna can do no wrong, 80k isn't enough. On top of all that crap, the Feds with there NCLB crap ensures that a teacher's time is spent teaching to the test and documenting everything and they have no time to really teach. Any way this has nothing to do with union issue, just saying.
RUN LITTLE RATS, RUN!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAH! There is no escape. THERE IS NO ESCAPE. by Sgt York on Mon Dec 17, 2007
[ Parent ]
OH MAN SOUNDS LIKE (none / 0) (#29)
by GhostOfTiber on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:30:46 PM EST

if you feel that badly about the rules, you need a new job.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Observations, I don't work as a teacher. n/t (none / 0) (#31)
by Calalily on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:08:05 PM EST


RUN LITTLE RATS, RUN!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAH! There is no escape. THERE IS NO ESCAPE. by Sgt York on Mon Dec 17, 2007
[ Parent ]
teachers don't start at $50K (none / 0) (#61)
by Morally Inflexible on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 02:47:57 AM EST

uh, except maybe in some really expensive places.  Heck, Engineers may reach that level pretty quick, but often don't start at $50K.  you are talking more like $30K in most parts of California for an entry-level teacher, probably less elsewhere...  But you have to factor in that they get three months off.   on an hourly basis, a teacher at $40K is making as much as a PHP monkey at $50K.  

Also, you can get a teaching job with a psychology degree.  Show me a job you can get with a psychology degree plus a year of trade school, besides teaching -  a job that a person of average intelligence and charisma can do that has minimal 'eww' factor.    I doubt you can find many that pay much better.  

(I'm not saying teachers are dumb-  some of them are brilliant and do great work;  I'm just saying there is nothing stopping a person of average intelligence from getting and keeping a teaching job, and there is no realistic mechanism for promoting a brilliant k-12 teacher over one that is less effective.)  


[ Parent ]

-1AWTP (none / 1) (#43)
by Enlarged to Show Texture on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:55:57 PM EST




"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." -- Isaac Asimov
[ Parent ]
fantasy land (3.00 / 2) (#46)
by rhiannon on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:42:59 PM EST

public teachers would consider themselves extremely lucky to end their career at 80k a year, most start at 30 something.

-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
[ Parent ]
Ha ha where do you get 80k (none / 0) (#49)
by livus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 10:09:45 PM EST

if you're in line with the rest of the planet it should be a little under half that.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
um. where do you live? (none / 1) (#52)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 10:31:20 PM EST

lot of teachers i know would like to move there if you can make 80k starting out.

[ Parent ]
Why are you Mac users so tedious and sanctimonious (2.62 / 8) (#27)
by Adam Rightmann on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 11:27:10 AM EST

I tried to read this, but it just devolved into some Mac centric screed.

i don't have a mac (none / 0) (#88)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:09:07 PM EST

where did you get that idea, mr. adam rightmann?

[ Parent ]
tldr... but (none / 0) (#33)
by Booji Boy on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:04:12 PM EST

I think I agree with you, my roomate is a 27 year old mouth-breathing idiot who just finished a year on his first high school teaching contract. The union now guarantees him a job for life provided he doesn't sexually abuse any students.

I am astonished (none / 0) (#36)
by Strom Thurmond on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 05:44:33 PM EST

that there is actually someone who would post a defense of teacher's unions.  

VEGETARIAN: An Indian word meaning "lousy hunter"

you're amazed that people act selfishly? (2.00 / 3) (#39)
by chlorus on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 06:19:36 PM EST

oh man, buddy, don't go outside. it's a cruel world out there.

Peahippo: Coked-up internet tough guy or creepy pedophile?
[ Parent ]

I would like to know what Mr Steve Jobs thinks (1.50 / 2) (#37)
by mrbastard on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 06:13:33 PM EST

about Reverend Rowan Williams recent statements that that been taken to imply his belief in the inevitablity of the incorporation of sharia law into the british legal system.

"ohmygod I have a boyfriend" - Wen Jian

"You brits are fucked." /nt (none / 1) (#44)
by spooked on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:57:20 PM EST



Seriously.
[ Parent ]
you answer your own critique (3.00 / 4) (#41)
by LilDebbie on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:44:54 PM EST

by blaming the administrator for teacher D. yes, it's his fault for thinking with his dick. no one disputes this. we acknowledge it. we acknowledge that humans are flawed. therefore, we acknowledge the need for the ability to rectify a flawed situation.

tenure takes that away. it says no matter how fucking worthless of a worker you are, you cannot be fired. and children suffer for it. the teachers union defends tenure. therefore we attack the teachers union.

and y'know what the best part is? the reason starting pay for teachers is in the shithole is because of tenure. example: fire one incompetent tenured teacher making $100k and you can hire two competent untenured teachers for $50k. instead of the reasonable solution that every other service industry on the fucking planet employs, new teachers who actually care and are familiar with new techniques and *gasp* can relate better to children who aren't 30 years their junior get paid a heaping pile of dick as their starting salary. shit, you could make more at mcdonald's. without the degree.

but no, the teachers union had a retarded approach to pension planning and now education is fucked in this country. thanks a fucking lot.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

oh for pete's sake lil deb- (none / 1) (#56)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 10:51:52 PM EST

no teacher makes 100 thou even at the end of their career.   the pay at the END of your career is closer to 50 than it is one hundred.  

and i have NO idea where they are getting teacher candidates today (in my state anyway) but my observation is that they are the worst i've seen in my entire career.  and my state's average for special education teachers to stay in the profession is 3 years.  3 years and then they get the heck out-  because the pay is too low and they find out it's work.  

[ Parent ]

if this was correct (none / 0) (#57)
by livus on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:48:25 AM EST

then in the places where there is no tenure and no unions, teachers would be well paid.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
private schools are notorious (none / 1) (#63)
by Morally Inflexible on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 03:06:41 AM EST

for underpaying teachers. It's ridiculousness, on some levels, but it supports my assertion that the most important component of a good school is good students.

[ Parent ]
They'll air a show on that here (3.00 / 2) (#78)
by tetsuwan on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 04:02:54 PM EST

They took five or so "great teachers", that were known to be great and placed them in a class were 50% or so were failing at the moment. Supposedly the teachers managed to lift the class a lot. But I wonder how much the camera team did. Just being filmed for national television will make most student pay more attention, especially the kind of students who normally don't.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

no, i really think (none / 0) (#85)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 07:13:09 PM EST

that great teachers actually CAN raise achievement in students.  my evidence is anectdotal of course- but i have seen it. teachers make a difference.  all the more reason to make sure you have great ones in the schools.  my contention is, however, that blaming the unions for the lack of good teachers is wrong.

i blame a lack of good adminstrators, societal issues, and a combination of legislators and business people (who know nothing about education) trying to answer educational problems.  what i'd like to see happen is this:  
schools are given x much money per pupil (from a combination of state, federal, and local funds- which is put into a common pot for that school.  schools are told how many staff (per pupil population) that they must have and how much they must pay them. i'd like to see that wage be very decent.   Then after that they (the schools) are allowed to address all other issues and concerns (texts, materials,  secretarial, janitorial etc) in any way they see fit, with the money they have left.  

i do think you are probably right tho- that the cameras do have an effect.  

[ Parent ]

uh, can you really make $20-30K (none / 0) (#62)
by Morally Inflexible on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 03:00:52 AM EST

(depending on location) working for 9 months out of the year at McDonalds? It would surprise me greatly. I still think Teacher salaries are well within reason when you compare them to other opportunities open to liberal arts majors of average intelligence and charisma, if you factor in the 3 months of vacation.

[ Parent ]
good point (none / 1) (#77)
by LilDebbie on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 03:10:31 PM EST

summer vacation throws me every time.

shit, i don't need much money. sign me up for this shit. oh right, i hate kids.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]

Didn't read, but I'll add this: (1.00 / 3) (#70)
by Hiphopopotamus on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 08:33:39 AM EST

My wife is a teacher and is quickly making it so that I will only ever have to work somewhere I really feel like it. There's a teacher she works with who is now using up all his saved up sick days from the past 25 years (they only get about 30 per year, poor sops), which means he will retire in 3 years after getting successive pay raises. In that last 5 years of his career he worked his way into a job that only demanded he coach a few teams and mentor a few kids, leaving him enough time to run a solid business on the side during school hours.

No one can fire him and no one can do anything other than suggest he stops.
_________________

I'm In LOVE!

-1: Stupid (none / 0) (#75)
by Naysayer on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:12:37 AM EST

I support unions, but your argument is ridiculous.  If unions are there to give more inexperienced teachers a cushion to make mistakes (which I think is stupid on the merits anyway), then the last thing we need is the tenure system, which does exactly the opposite -- protecting those whom you claim need it the least, and doing nothing for those who need it the most.

Tenure makes sense when talking about university professors who need to be free of political suasion so they can explore controversial topics.  It makes no sense when talking about elementary school teachers.

Teachers deserve fair pay and the same kind of merit-based competitive workforce the rest of us have.

but what i'm saying is (3.00 / 2) (#79)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 06:14:06 PM EST

that tenure is already in existence.  and it really doesn't stand a chance of going away.  and so the remedy is not to spend all your time whining like Steve Jobs, it's to look at why younger teachers make it to tenure in the first place.  it's not because of the union- it's because administrators and school districts aren't expecting enough from their young teachers and because they are keeping "less-than" good candidates in place until it's too late.  

now, i'll give you that suggesting that the teacher unions provide a cushion made it sound like i was say the unions should protect the younger incompetents- that is not what i was trying to convey however.  what i was trying to convey is that unions provide a level of protection against arbitrary hiring and firing.  

perhaps the real issue is that no one has devised a very good way of figuring out how to evaluate teachers.  my personal feeling is that college programs are not selective enough in their applicants for the degree.  but i also feel that in addition to low standards for the applicants, the expected pay rates tend to discourage some very good people from going into the field or staying in the field.  

[ Parent ]

why do you think tenure has no chance of going? (none / 1) (#82)
by livus on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 06:41:32 PM EST

Tenure is being eroded significantly in the tertiary sector, why not the primary and secondary?

I agree with you about problems of training and evaluation, though.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

i do think (3.00 / 2) (#84)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 07:00:32 PM EST

that the unions are too strong. and i suppose that if the powers that be decided that they were going to break the union in some fashion, they could go all out and make it happen.   but at what cost will that happen?  are the powers willing to pay the price of that?  

you know, i often hear people say that teachers have it easy, they have three months off, they have somewhat guaranteed retirement and health care (of which part is paid.) but the thing is rather than be pissed that teachers have that- why not fight to have that in your own profession? why begrudge other human beings of good things?  

as for the claims:  1. that it's easy- come try it and then see if you can really say that it's easy.  2.the three months off? it's really actually only about 2 months anymore and on top of that- while there are those who coast in the profession, there are probably a whole lot more of us who spend a good deal of time off taking classes or working on various aspects of our job. 3. guaranteed retirment? well if you retire at 55, you have to hope that you only live a few more years or you have to, in some way, supplement that retirement. also i believe that it's not really good for there to be a lot of turn over in a school, i think guaranteeing retirement helps assure that people will stay around.  4. healthcare?  you'd begrudge teachers healthcare? while it may be true that it's a great deal to even have it anymore, i don't think the answer to the healthcare crisis is to take it away from people who do have it.  

[ Parent ]

well, (none / 0) (#86)
by livus on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 08:34:57 PM EST

it would never cross my mind to make any of the four claims.

3 and 4 are irrelevant in my country anyway; 1 and 2 are surely displays of ignorance.

 

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

are you really talking about apples and oranges? (3.00 / 3) (#89)
by United Fools on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:13:51 PM EST

We don't see any fruits here

We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
Look again (3.00 / 3) (#91)
by livus on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 12:04:09 AM EST

I think you'll find k5 has plenty of fruits.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
You are okay with this? (none / 1) (#95)
by BobCat on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 12:43:30 PM EST

>his solution to this was to go meet with the other CEO and ...

conspire to fix wages and thus violate anti-monopoly laws.

He should be in prison. Detroit is not allowed to do it and neither is he.

Top 10 Ways to Amuse a Geek

i didn't say (none / 0) (#98)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:56:29 PM EST

i was ok or not ok with it. i'm just telling you that this is what he did.  
re the anti-monopoly- the other company wasn't  the same type of business- they just hired from the same regional employee pool.  

[ Parent ]
Great thoughts! (none / 1) (#103)
by Jambeeno on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 06:55:08 AM EST

I'm about as anti-Union as they come, but you expressed the particular merits of teacher's unions quite well.

My first gripe is that the Fed shouldn't be involved in education at all -- note one iota.  It should be a state matter.  Attempting to solve the issues of a nation from the tip-top level is like trying to knock a brick wall down with a wooden bat.

I don't see why a state couldn't revamp its elementary and middle schools and privatize high school entirely.  I'll bet most who drop out or coast through high school only use 7th-grade or lower forms of knowledge & skill in their occupations (assuming no vocational training), so why force citizens to pay for the extra 4-5 years?  If the kids were dropping out or coasting through anyway, they weren't going to appreciate school at all, anyhow.

I very much dislike unions and federal regulations.  They both smack of enabling crippling personal irresponsibility in our citizenry.  Granted, maintaining or improving on the status quo is pretty much all one can do given a system that is already collapsing on itself (such as the USA), but that doesn't stop people like myself from envisioning how things would work given a cleaner slate.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.

Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage."

that's an interesting thought (none / 1) (#109)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:58:18 PM EST

to make public education only mandatory up to 7th grade or so. i know i do wish that there wouldn't be such a push to have everyone and their brother go to college.  frankly, not everyone belongs in college.  and sometimes i'm not even sure if it's all that worthwhile in the first place.  
having said that- i'm awfully glad i went to college.  it did broaden my life a great deal. but i just think it's ridiculous to treat all people as if they had the same ability levels and interests.  

as for federal intervention- the only think i'd worry about is  if there were not federal intervention, i'm pretty certain that my local schools would be teaching creationism and barring people with disabilties and probably barring blacks and hispanics.  i'm fairly certain there wouldn't be an high school sports for girls.  a lot of things like that-  that i know the local conservatives would just as soon not have.  

and yes, i suppose civilizations all have their rise and their falls.  but well, i take the long view i guess-  that i'm rather glad that i wasn't born in midieval times or a black person in the early 1800's etc.  

and i'm also not sure what else i can be doing to alter the course of a fall.  i try to live with honesty and integrity and with courage to stand up against wrongs and injustices.    and i tried the best i could to pass that on to my kids.  and i'm not sure what else i'd really be capable of doing.

[ Parent ]

ROFL. (none / 1) (#119)
by TDS on Tue Feb 19, 2008 at 05:05:49 PM EST

I hope for your sake you are a teenager still in college.

And when we die, we will die with our hands unbound. This is why we fight.
[ Parent ]
A long, rambling rant with too much white space. (none / 0) (#104)
by Joe Sixpack on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:30:47 PM EST

I want my 5 minutes back.

---
[ MONKEY STEALS THE PEACH ]

oh joe (none / 1) (#108)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:44:29 PM EST

you weren't going to do anything valuable with those five minutes anyway.  

[ Parent ]
Steve Jobs (none / 0) (#105)
by SaintPort on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:31:08 PM EST

has power and voice all by himself.

He is not in a position to empathize with the Common Man. The Common Man is a working man or woman who lacks the connections, charisma and advantages that people in power have.

Unions are for the Common Man. Just like all organizations, they need to be well managed to be fair and effective.

K-12 teachers either love spending time with kids, or find it too challenging to try something else. Either way, that career choice will never pay well.

Steve Jobs is an asshat.

--
Search the Scriptures
Start with some cheap grace...Got Life?

well that he's an asshat (none / 1) (#107)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:43:37 PM EST

is what prompted me to write my rant. i did mean that i admire him for what he was able to accomplish in his own world, but he's an asshat for thinking that he knows anything about education or for thinking that it is his place to blast the union or teachers in the u.s.  i found it to be arrogant and condescending and ignorant all at the same time.
and it gripes me that people like this have power and money and clout.  and at this point, i'm hoping his unholy deal with the unholy at&t takes him down someday.

[ Parent ]
d00d. Unions are communism. (none / 0) (#110)
by V on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 05:48:01 AM EST

And communism is the work of the Devil and The Beast in the Vatican.

HTH.
---
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[ Parent ]

666 (none / 0) (#112)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 06:03:51 PM EST

 "Demons do not exist any more than gods do, being only the products of the psychic activity of man"

[ Parent ]
Unfortunately... (none / 0) (#116)
by Pnarp on Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 06:29:38 PM EST

...my nose has gone on strike again, or else I would be able to write a cogent reply to this article. As it is, I can merely snort, sniff, and gurgle softly in the corner, until my nose returns.

∼ Phillip Norbert Årp
Powered by the love of the voluptuous insect goddess, Strahazazhia Kalamazoo-Kintaki-Meeps, She of the six-legged delights.


✿✿✿ Pnårp’s docile & perfunctory page! ✿✿✿
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i'd heard about your nose (none / 1) (#117)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 04:29:48 PM EST

and well, perhaps you should have further considered the merits of his demands.  instead- what did you do?  you blew him.

[ Parent ]
Ineteresting (none / 0) (#118)
by mindstrm on Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 07:32:30 PM EST

Interesting, and makes sense but doesn't fix the larger problem.

Teachers wouldn't be worried about such crazy scrutiny if such stupid standards were not "enforced" across the entire public school system.  Districts are judged on ridiculous measures.. and not permitted to set their own regional standards.

The problem is the system itself - not the teacher sand their union... any time you have a strong union and their members are threatened, you can expect a response.

I'm against total tenure - I've seen terrible teachers who were plain and simple shitty teachers (maybe at one point in their career they were good.. but not now).. who ran real-estate busienss on the side, treated kids like shit, and basically had no business being in a classroom.  Why should someone like that be protected?  Get the hell out of that school.. go do something else. If you ever feel like teaching properly again, come back.

Teachers SHOULD be protected, and SHOULD be able to make a secure career out of good teaching... but the system should nto prepetuate useless teachers.

Stand firm. (none / 0) (#120)
by TDS on Tue Feb 19, 2008 at 05:30:29 PM EST

God is our guide! from field, from wave, From plough, from anvil, and from loom; We come, our country's rights to save, And speak a tyrant faction's doom: We raise the watch-word liberty; We will, we will, we will be free!

And when we die, we will die with our hands unbound. This is why we fight.
Apples to Oranges | 124 comments (106 topical, 18 editorial, 5 hidden)
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