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[P]
Gimme my .edu

By xzap in Internet
Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 07:43:01 PM EST
Tags: Internet (all tags)
Internet

I study at an engineering college in India. Recently we decided to register a .edu domain name for our college. Apparently, nonUSians don't deserve a .edu domain name.


Having made the website as a major initiative in the college with inputs from several students and faculty, we decided it was time to initiate the procedure to register the domain name. We had heard that a .edu domain name was free and that a certain Network Solutions Partner would register it for us. We were told to submit several documents which proved that our college was affiliated to the Mumbai University and recognised by the government as a degree giving institute of higher education. We did that and waited. Over time several calls to the company resulted in the standard reply that Network Solutions was shifting control of .edu domains to someone else and they didn't know who.

After some measure of apathy thinking that things would fall in place magically, we decided to take up things in our hands. We found that EduCause now handles the .edu registrations. Off to EduCause.edu we went. There we made the amazing discovery that if you are a non US institution the only way to get a .edu domain is to get accredition from one of the six listed institutions all of which are inside the United States. Obviously my college cannot afford to boot the charges for committees from these institutions to come to our college and recognise it just to get a domain name.

So what are we to do ? Why can't EduCause accept my Government's guarantee that we are accredited and who are they to deny us a .edu domain ?

The Domain Name system is one of the pillars on which the internet stands. If there is such blatant discrimination in this system, I fear the internet will not stay as free as it is for long. If tommorrow the US Government decides that even .com domains have to go through accredition by US agencies and deny domain names to those whose 'content' they don't like, what are we to do ? We have to find a way to take the central control of systems that are critical to the existence of the internet from individual countries and make them unbiased, more accessible and available for all. The question I ask you is how ?

As an afterthought and because many people wanted to know why, the reason we want a .edu tld rather than .ac.in is because there are some foreign students studying at our college and the management wants to project what they call 'an international image'. Granted that it is not the best reason to have a .edu but if they want one I think they deserve to have one. That is what this story is about.

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Gimme my .edu | 199 comments (160 topical, 39 editorial, 2 hidden)
central control (4.33 / 9) (#1)
by wiredog on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 08:54:31 AM EST

Well, taking control away from government is what ICANN was intended to do. Is there anyone, other than corporations, who doesn't hate ICANN? At least when the .com/.org/.edu domains were under direct US Government control there was some level of accountability to the actual people, via the elected representatives. Is there a ".edu.in" domain?

Perhaps the non-country tld's should be abolished. Kuro5hin.org becomes kuro5hin.org.us, microsoft.com becomes mcrosoft.com.us, etc. Good luck getting that through the new, completely non-democratic ICANN, however.

Can't sleep. The clowns will get me.

Accountable to some people (2.50 / 2) (#3)
by Bob Dog on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:10:05 AM EST

Why don't let the UN handle them?

[ Parent ]
Indeed. (4.00 / 3) (#27)
by Cloaked User on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:09:31 AM EST

Accountable to the USian people, perhaps; I have a .org domain, but no say at all as to how the .org tld is managed.

I'm just hoping that whoever buys it doesn't suddenly decide to jack up the price...

Cheers,

Tim
--
"What the fuck do you mean 'Are you inspired to come to work'? Of course I'm not 'inspired'. It's a job for God's sake! The money's enough and the work's not so crap that I leave."
[ Parent ]

No, they should be non-national (2.66 / 3) (#131)
by texchanchan on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 01:23:48 AM EST

Re, Perhaps the non-country tld's should be abolished. Kuro5hin.org becomes kuro5hin.org.us ...

On the contrary. The net is the beginning of the end for lines-on-maps nations. It would be retrogressive to name tld's only after geographically bounded entities.

The net maps to conceptual space better than it does to the 2-d surface of the Earth. How about some more conceptually descriptive tld's:
.him
.her
.nerd
.car
.mom
.fan
.goth
.old
.kid (seems like this one was proposed or something)
...and there are plenty more subgroups that deserve their own tld by more basic qualifications than having a declaration of independence and (sometimes) a constitution.

[ Parent ]

And oh yeah not always English (3.00 / 1) (#133)
by texchanchan on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 01:28:55 AM EST

I was using English words, but any nice short-ish extension would do; but we are going to have to eventually agree on an alphabet (rather, a character set).

[ Parent ]
Bah (3.40 / 10) (#2)
by gazbo on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 08:58:32 AM EST

The finest universities in the world do not have a .edu tld.

Yeah, it goes for Cambridge and Oxford too if you're into second rate homoerotic universities.


-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

Indeed (3.00 / 2) (#7)
by jonathan_ingram on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:23:36 AM EST

Very true.
-- Jon
[ Parent ]
Hey! (4.50 / 2) (#26)
by Cloaked User on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:07:33 AM EST

You can't go talking about "the finest universities in the world" without actually linking to one.

Cheers,

Tim
--
"What the fuck do you mean 'Are you inspired to come to work'? Of course I'm not 'inspired'. It's a job for God's sake! The money's enough and the work's not so crap that I leave."
[ Parent ]

Love that one.. (3.00 / 2) (#51)
by Cuchulainn on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 11:38:30 AM EST

Every time I type it I'm mentally saying: Eww Ick Ack Uck!! Damn fine uni though...
If so don't worry about it, stuff you eat when you're drunk doesn't count, just like stuff you say and people you sleep with. - Parent ]
Even crap ones (2.00 / 1) (#182)
by sgp on Sun Jun 30, 2002 at 08:23:51 PM EST

like the crap one I went to.

On-topic rant: Say where you are in the TLD, what's the problem?

Off-topic rant: UoH care more about making money than educating students.

There are 10 types of people in the world:
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[ Parent ]

Value of .edu (3.25 / 8) (#4)
by Silent Chris on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:17:36 AM EST

Out of curiousity, what is the "value" of having the .edu domain?  Do you get special rates?  Priority network packets?  As far as I can tell, there's no actual benefit to having an .edu tapped onto the end of your site.

This is already a problem discussed over and over again: the domain name registering system is way too limited.  Still, when most people (notice I didn't say "corporations") want a name that's already used, or difficult to get, they just choose another one.

.edu because (4.50 / 2) (#6)
by xzap on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:21:03 AM EST

the college is not a company or a "non profit organisation" either. .net would work but .edu is most appropriate. When there is a special tld for education institutions why not have that ? And the question here is that we have as much right over a .edu as any one else.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
"value" of having the .edu domain (5.00 / 1) (#96)
by TON on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 05:49:57 PM EST

The .edu domain clearly shows that the institution is an accredited institution, not a diploma mill, someone's hobby, or a business. In the case described here, it seems more "international" in the same way that a .com can be more attractive than, say a .co.jp domain. This is really about the US/ICANN saying that they know better than anyone else who is a "real" university and who isn't.

One other advantage of having a .edu is in web searching. I frequently limit searches on google to .edu tld to cut down on the noise. I suppose I really ought to remember to try searches with .ac as well. This begins to get pretty cumbersome though. The .edu may get the website in front of more eyes than a .ac.in address.

"First, I am born. Then, the trouble begins." -- Schizopolis

Ted


[ Parent ]

US/ICANN? (3.00 / 1) (#102)
by paine in the ass on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 06:24:18 PM EST

This is really about the US/ICANN saying that they know better than anyone else who is a "real" university and who isn't.
Excuse me? Where did the U.S. Government or ICANN get involved here? EduCause is the group you should have a beef with, and all they're asking for is accreditation. They seem to have a list of sources they recognise as valid accreditors, and they ask you to have one of those to register. The author of this article seems to think his country's accreditation is good enough, but I can see how that wouldn't cut it; accept any country's accreditation blindly and you'll get little dictators setting up universityofthefreehappyliberatedpeoplesdemocracticrepublicofeternalbliss.edu and claiming it's just as respectable as any other .edu, which it won't be. EduCause seems to have simply outlined who they trust for accreditation and they're perfectly within their rights to do so.


I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion.
[ Parent ]
US Involvement (3.00 / 1) (#185)
by TON on Mon Jul 01, 2002 at 03:37:12 AM EST

The US is involved because: <quote>Only "regionally accredited" institutions are currently eligible to receive .edu names. It has been proposed that this restriction be revised to include all post-secondary institutions that are institutionally accredited by an accrediting agency appearing on the U.S. Department of Education's list of "Nationally Recognized Accrediting Agencies." </quote>

From the educause.edu website.

This poses a high, and perhaps politicized, barrier to entry. Perhaps educause could accredit more individual country accrediting agencies. After all, .edu was meant to be a global resource, not a strictly US one.

I guess I flew off the handle about ICANN, but that's easy enought to do, sometimes.

"Little dictators"? Come on, can't you come up with something better than that?

"First, I am born. Then, the trouble begins." -- Schizopolis

Ted


[ Parent ]

JANet (3.00 / 1) (#183)
by sgp on Sun Jun 30, 2002 at 08:28:55 PM EST

JANet - the Joint Academic Network - aka .ac.uk - means that the domain is jot some diploma mill, but an accredited UK institute of higher education.

There are rules for getting an .ac.uk domain, and I assume that there are similar rules (and accompanying kudos) with .ac.in.

Maybe it would be better if these were .edu.uk and .edu.in, but who really cares at the end of the day?

Worrying about your domain name is pure vanity. Unless you can really say that people will certainly look for you at something.edu and then immediately give up without checking out Google, you don't need that domain.

I'm steve-parker.org, which is pure vanity, but I get few, if any, direct visitors. They all come through Google, looking for the content.

There are 10 types of people in the world:
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[ Parent ]

What's wrong with .in? (3.92 / 13) (#5)
by rsidd on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:20:00 AM EST

All the best educational institutions in India use it.

And elsewhere, too, they use country codes.

That said, the college I studied in, in Delhi, has a .edu website. I wonder how.

Its .ac.in , .res.in and .ernet.in (4.66 / 3) (#10)
by xzap on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:27:32 AM EST

ac for academics

ernet - education research networks

res research

and i am sure getting one of those will be considerably harder than getting a .edu because of our excellent bureaucracy as teh government controls them

your college has a .edu because when Network Solutions controlled .edu, it was much easier to get a .edu and there were no such restrictions as those now put up by EduCause




Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
Then maybe an Indian news site (3.50 / 2) (#13)
by rsidd on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:45:20 AM EST

would be more appropriate to complain on.

But are you sure it's that hard? ernet's mission is to help academic institutions in India get connected; I used to know some of the people managing the southern end of the show, in IISc Bangalore, and they were sincere and very competent. I'm talking of 3-4 years ago or more, though.

Even relatively minor places in the south, like Bharathidasan University (Trichy) and REC Warangal have ernet addresses...

[ Parent ]

Its not just about India (5.00 / 1) (#19)
by xzap on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:54:24 AM EST

Any institution not inside US would face the same problem. It is therefore about the whole issue of control of tlds.

I am not sure but I believe that .ernet.in and .ac.in is limited for goverment colleges (RECs, IITs) and univerisities. For example Mumbai University also has a .ac.in tld. I am not sure about this, so I'll find out more. These seem to be our next best option.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
Nobody faces the problem (3.33 / 3) (#22)
by rsidd on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:01:21 AM EST

because nobody cares. I think a typical institution in France or the Netherlands would prefer .fr or .nl to .edu, even if the latter was offered to them (and they could have opted for it until a few years ago, as you point out). The question is, why do you care?

[ Parent ]
At the risk of re-repeating.. (4.50 / 2) (#28)
by xzap on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:11:39 AM EST

.edu was not made just for institutions in the US, it was a tld for educational institutions in ALL countries. Tomorrow I don't want to be told, you cant use .com, use .co.in thats for Indians, .com is just for US companies.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
What Bureaucracy ? (none / 0) (#195)
by ShiteNick on Thu Jul 25, 2002 at 03:32:58 PM EST

Have you tried to call NCST? Have you tried to mail them? Or did you just *assume* that there is a lot of bureaucracy?

When I was a student at NCST, I knew the folks who ran the DNS system and they were never the bureaucratic types. They are competent admins and will attempt to help as far as possible.

Just incase you haven't already done so, please mail domains@ncst.ernet.in and ask them what you'd need to do.



[ Parent ]
I hate ICAAN (3.77 / 9) (#8)
by psychologist on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:23:55 AM EST

The governmetn of each country should control their top level domain, just the same way they control their country name.

The current situation has the United States in defacto control of all domain name services - the U.S. could easily cut of the windpipe, and leave the internet of most countries dead.

Too little accountability amongst ICAAN. That is why it is so hypocritical when all the slashdotters cry out against the injustice of South Africa wanting control of their TLD, and in the very next thread, complaining about how undemocratic ICAAN is.

I say: Down with ICAAN! Down with New.net! Up with distributed control over resources!

Dude seriously, go read up on the issue .. (4.00 / 1) (#37)
by DeHans on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:34:20 AM EST

because what you're saying is so garbled, it's not even funny anymore. (Not that I'm known for my crystal clear explanations, but here goes :-)

First of all, it's ICANN, Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers.

Second, from the ICANN site:
Formed in November 1998, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) is a non-profit, private sector corporation that coordinates a select set of the Internet's technical management functions currently performed by the U.S. Government or its contractors and volunteers. ICANN is gradually assuming responsibility for coordinating the assignment of protocol parameters, the assignment of globally unique domain names, the allocation of IP address space, and the management of the root server system.
As you can read in the text above, the ICANN was incepted exactly to get the U.S. Governement *out* of the root business, (in which they never really were in the first plce, they only picked up the bill, do a search for Jon Postel to know who *really* owned the Net).

Yes, the ICANN is crappy, yes they are currently unaccountable, but at least it is an attempt at a global solution, in stead of carving the internet up in thousands of incompatible national nets.

Knowing this, the South African situation, and espsecially the /. comments, might even make sense to you now (Governement trying to wrestle control from ICANN, hint hint). If you wanna know more read up at ICANN, or better, at ICANN Watch

[ Parent ]
Utter crap (5.00 / 1) (#39)
by psychologist on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:41:42 AM EST

I prefer the government I elect - and which I can force to step down - to control this resource. I do not want an American-based and registered non-profit organisation to do same, particularly if I am not American.

Government control is needed and good. I didn't select ICAAN, and I DO NOT WANT THEM. But do I have a choice? No.

If I do not want my government, I will vote for someone else. I think the South African government should get control of its domain.

I suggest it is you that is disconnected from political reality, and the mechanics of power.

[ Parent ]

Choice (5.00 / 1) (#43)
by skeller on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 11:13:10 AM EST

Government control is needed and good. I didn't select ICAAN, and I DO NOT WANT THEM. But do I have a choice? No.
Uh... you do have a choice. Create your own root domain server and convince everyone else to use it. Nobody's forcing you to use the ones controlled by ICANN.

If it's wrong to eat puppies, why did God make them so tasty?
[ Parent ]

Out of curiousity. (none / 0) (#153)
by DuckSauce on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 04:25:49 AM EST

Where are the root DNS servers physically located? Are all of them in the US?

[ Parent ]
location of root servers... (none / 0) (#179)
by frenetik on Sun Jun 30, 2002 at 04:50:08 AM EST

You can read up on this here (bottom of the page). That was the status as of 2000.

Most are in the US, but one is located in the UK, another one in Sweden and a last one in Japan.

Friends are like plants. They need attention and they need to drink. -- SPYvSPY
[ Parent ]

Rough morning? (5.00 / 2) (#42)
by Irobot on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 11:01:30 AM EST

I agree whole-heartedly with your opinion of ICANN. However, your supporting arguments/opinions need help:

The governmetn [sic] of each country should control their top level domain, just the same way they control their country name.
What should happen is that the international "public" should control the DNS system. Since that's a pipe-dream, an internationally representative body should control it. The Internet is designed to "share" information; allowing one government to control any part of it makes it too easy to cut access (think the great firewall of China). Fortunately, the US government (by way of ICANN) has been fairly benevolent regarding access (although I shudder to think about what'll happen as corporations gain more control). Which brings us to:

The current situation has the United States in defacto control of all domain name services - the U.S. could easily cut of the windpipe, and leave the internet of most countries dead.
Of course the US is in de facto control - it was sponsored by the US DOD (or DARPA - I'm not sure where the line gets drawn). No one knew at its inception that it was going to evolve into what it is today. And seriously, is anyone *really* worried that the US will "cut of [sic] the windpipe"? Is there really any country that would be *more* likely to leave it open?

That is why it is so hypocritical when all the slashdotters cry out against the injustice of South Africa wanting control of their TLD, and in the very next thread, complaining about how undemocratic ICAAN is.
Why is this hypocritical? The point is that it should be open. ICANN being undemocratic and South Africa wanting control are both restrictive. Two examples of a single idea.

That leaves 19 words remaining in your post that I agree with. Perhaps you need to eat your Wheaties in the morning?

Irobot

"Life is so unlike theory." -- Anthony Trollope
Irobot

The one important thing I have learned over the years is the difference between taking one's work seriously and taking one's self seriously. The first is imperative and the second is disastrous. -- Margot Fonteyn
[ Parent ]

ICANN, Convenience, and "cutting the windpipe (4.66 / 3) (#84)
by shyy on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 03:10:38 PM EST

The only reason that ICANN wields any power at all is that DNS administrators world wide currently point to ICANN servers en-mass as their root servers of choice out of simple convenience (and lack of any established alternative).

True, the US could in theory use ICANN to severely screw up Internet access for the rest of the world, but the disruption need only be temporary as widespread adoption of alternative root servers or alternative methods would hopefully soon follow.



[ Parent ]
Use you own damn country's top level domain (3.14 / 14) (#12)
by sholden on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:44:00 AM EST

Everything would make a lot more sense if people wouldn't use bloody .com, .edu, etc and leave them for americans.

My university copes just fine without a .edu. My bank copes just fine without a .com. My state government manages without a bloody .gov.

I'm sure your educational institution will survive without pretending it isn't in India.


--
The world's dullest web page


Thats like saying (3.50 / 4) (#14)
by xzap on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:47:53 AM EST

the grapes are sour so lets just leave them for the US. Its not about pretending not to be in India, it is more about if someone from another country , a potential student, who wants to find out more about my college typing www.mycollege.edu and not getting a DNSERROR.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
Surely your college won't be interested... (3.00 / 3) (#21)
by rsidd on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:59:17 AM EST

in the sort of moron who can't use a search engine in such a case. Everyone knows about google today. Put up your website and within a month or two at most it will be the top hit in google, regardless of whether it's .edu or .in.

Actually, many .edu names aren't very obvious anyway -- what's umd.edu? umbc.edu? bu.edu? Unless you knew it already, could you have guessed?

It's more important not to mislead people into thinking your college is in the US when it isn't. Or perhaps that's really your aim -- I'm getting extremely suspicious now.

[ Parent ]

My friend (4.60 / 5) (#25)
by xzap on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:04:14 AM EST

.com is not .com.us
.net is not .net.us
then why do you treat .edu as .edu.us ?
You could probably question the motives of my college and be right in the fact that "projecting an international image" is as bad as "pretending you are in the US" but just think. What good would it do for my college to pretend it is in the US ? Would a greek student wanting to study in US come to my college just because it has a .edu tld ? he would not.
At the risk of repetition, the logic you use to argue that we should leave .edu to the US could tomorrow be used to argue that we should also leave .net , .com , .org , .info, .biz etc to the US and be satisfied with .xyz.in. Why ? I deserve a .edu as much as anybody else becuase it wasn't meant for just USians, it has been made that way now.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
College names (4.00 / 1) (#29)
by BadDoggie on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:12:54 AM EST

I went to UC. If you know what that is without clicking on it, you either spent time in the hell that is the U.S. Midwest or you went to it accidentally when you meant to go to one of the Universities of California, or maybe University of Chicago or even University of Colorado.

Sooner or later, all domains will have to accept their names with a country digraph at the end, including all the .coms, .nets, .orgs, .govs and .edus.

woof.

Truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense.
[ Parent ]

And such a classy homepage. (none / 0) (#110)
by haflinger on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 08:56:26 PM EST

I mean, you'd never have thought such an institution of higher learning could possibly be anything other than heavenly bliss.

Universities that resort to putting pretty girls in short skirts on their front pages are obviously one thing, and that's desperate. But hey, it's got a really short domain name, so it must be great, right? :)

Did people from the future send George Carlin back in time to save rusty and K5? - leviramsey
[ Parent ]

No it's not (3.33 / 3) (#23)
by sholden on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:03:38 AM EST

.com, .edu, .gov, etc are stupid archaic (well that might be a bit extreme :) top level domains which made sense when there weren't that many domains in existance.

Those days are over. Now every one and their dog has a domain name. And hence clashes are frequent and it all makes no sense.

Using the domain in its proper heirarchy is the only way to make some sense out of the damn thing. Your college is in India. And hence it's domain should be whatever.edu.in (or whatever India uses for .edu's). If someone wants to find out about your college they'll type the damn .in.

I would never think of using www.usyd.edy for Sydney University. It's in Australia, it'll be www.usyd.edu.au, so that's what I'll type... As will anyone who you would actually want to be involved with your college...


--
The world's dullest web page


[ Parent ]
Fine I don't mind if (4.50 / 2) (#33)
by xzap on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:20:05 AM EST

they do away with .edu, but if its still there we want one and why not ? We might not be Stanford or MIT but we are better than many of the seedy US schools who have a .edu


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
That's a revealing remark: (2.33 / 3) (#35)
by rsidd on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:24:36 AM EST

it suggests that you think .edu is some sort of stamp of qualification or symbol of pride. Get over that mindset, and you'll realize how stupid this whole argument is.

[ Parent ]
Yes it is a revealing remark (3.33 / 3) (#36)
by xzap on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:29:05 AM EST

but it suggests that I will not be party to discrimination. I agree with the idea that .mil, .gov and .edu are archaic but they ARE shorter and even if I have a mindset that .edu is better than .ac.in and that .com is better than .co.in and so on and so forth then i deserve to satisfy my mindset damn it.

I am tired of repeating to you that this story is about fairness in control of TLDs not about WHY I WANT A GODDAMN .edu. I will be retiring from this argument with you now. This argument is most definitely stupid since you continue to ignore my often stated purpose in writing this story.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
That's just what .EDU is now, maybe. (4.25 / 4) (#44)
by Mysidia on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 11:13:58 AM EST

If old-school schools get to keep their .edus and schools newly wanting domains outside the US can't get them, then .EDU becomes a status symbol.

Having an .EDU instead of an .EDU.XX has an implication that the university is globally recognized rather than being some tiny school (of no concern) in country XX.

Use of ccTLDs is not appropriate sometimes, because of the global nature of the internet -- geographical location is simply an outdated way of categorizing sites.

Sites can move from country to coutnry, but if they're to remain the same site, they must keep the same name.

Geographics are much less relevant to the internet than to other media. Many people prefer the gTLDS, they are shorter, easier to type, more-memorable. I can guarantee that EDUs won't be going away either, short of internet users boycotting .EDU domains, that won't be changed (at least not any time soon).

I believe the issue here is that, regardless of the existence of other top-levels country-specific or otherwise, regardless of the ability to use search engines, etc.

A TLD (EDU) that is recognized by most internet users (as a matter of consensus) as a TLD and established as a global resource is being arbitrarily held by a corporation in one country from its intended use by Universities in other countries.

In principle, this is a bad thing, and it doesn't matter if we think EDU is useless: it obviously is useful, if they want to register a domain on the TLD.

In fact, whether EDU is useful to them or not is their decision. Saying EDU is useless is an excuse for an uh, injustice.

If they want to buy a domain that they have a legitimate cause to buy and nobody else has claims to, then they should be allowed to buy it.

Arbitrarily denying use of a basic, global resource based on added unreasonable requirements that discriminatively injure Universities in countries foreign to the United States, a deplorable sort of thing for a registrar to be doing.

Perhaps a boycott of the .EDU domains would be appropriate, but I don't see how that could be successful -- unless you could get all the search engines to buy into it or provide an exclusion option for EDU tld entries (yeah right).



-Mysidia the insane @k5
[ Parent ]
There is nothing special about EDU. (2.00 / 1) (#48)
by zakalwe on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 11:35:31 AM EST

Having an .EDU instead of an .EDU.XX has an implication that the university is globally recognized rather than being some tiny school (of no concern) in country XX.

Not to me it doesn't.  Having a ".edu" tells me that the university is in the US.  Thats all.  Due to the historic quirk that the Internet originated in the US, they use ".EDU" rather than the more logical ".edu.us".

Unlike businesses, Universitys are inherently based in a single country.  When I'm looking at Universitys I know that the .ac.uk's are in my own country.  If I intend to study abroad, I look under the academic domain of the country I'm interested in.

Seriously, I don't know where you get the idea that EDU is some kind of status symbol.  If for some reason people decided that .ac.uk, or .ac.in were the best should all universitys be given them?  Have a bit of pride in your country and use the correct TLD.

[ Parent ]

There is (none / 0) (#86)
by Mysidia on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 03:17:10 PM EST

Anything registered under EDU.XX is a Third-level domain, things registered under EDU are second-level domains.

EDU is not for US universities, it is for all universities:

EDU - This domain was originally intended for all educational institutions. Many Universities, colleges, schools, educational service organizations, and educational consortia have registered here. More recently a decision has been taken to limit further registrations to 4 year colleges and universities. Schools and 2-year colleges will be registered in the country domains (see US Domain, especially K12 and CC, below).
(RFC 1591, Domain Name System Structure and Delegation)

4 year colleges/universities does not imply US colleges and universities.

The issue isn't that they're blocking non-US colleges, it's that they're requiring accredition by US agencies.

EDU becomes a status symbol when special status or agreements above and beyond being a 4 year college and meeting normal domain requirements is required to get it. Having an EDU domain becomes a "seal of approval" sort of thing: the only problem is that little seal is global internet domain space!



-Mysidia the insane @k5
[ Parent ]
Does anyone do that? (none / 0) (#52)
by FredBloggs on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 11:43:31 AM EST

"typing www.mycollege.edu" I mean. I think we should be relying less and less on the string of characters that make up domain names. I cant see into the future but i`m pretty sure that this system will be changed over the next 5/10 years, probably at the behest of corporations who dislike this sort of thing:

http://www.fordreallysucks.com
http://fuckgeneralmotors.com

etc

[ Parent ]

DNS is not a search engine (5.00 / 1) (#160)
by pin0cchio on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 07:44:36 AM EST

if someone from another country , a potential student, who wants to find out more about my college typing www.mycollege.edu and not getting a DNSERROR.

DNS is not a search engine; it's a way of naming IP hosts. If I want to learn about a college, I don't rely on DNS. I click here and enter the name of the college, which gives me this page.


lj65
[ Parent ]
"American until proven innocent" (5.00 / 1) (#72)
by Licquia on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 01:24:16 PM EST

It stands to reason, then, that educational institutions are always American, and that it's only noteworthy to point out the country of origin when that country is not the USA.

Sure.

If you don't like .com, .net, .edu, and so on, try to get them removed, or try to get Americans to use .us (since they now can). Until then, it certainly seems legitimate to me to give a .edu to an Indian college.

[ Parent ]

Please note (none / 0) (#99)
by paine in the ass on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 06:17:05 PM EST

The Indian university can get a .edu, they just need accreditation from an authority recognised by the registrar. In Australia, it's been long touted that one couldn't get a .com.au without presenting business credentials, a trademark for the domain requested, etc. to the registrar; why should educational institutions be any different? Otherwise any idiot could end up with a .edu address and the automatic respect given to sources from such a domain. Much as .com no longer means "business", it means "any loony who wants his own web site", .edu would become diluted, and that defeats the purpose of the domain.


I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion.
[ Parent ]

Barriers to entry (none / 0) (#105)
by Licquia on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 07:04:37 PM EST

If the list of recognized accrediting bodies includes only American institutions, then non-American institutions are forced to jump through hoops that American ones do not need to. This amounts to giving American schools a "free pass" of sorts into the .edu club.

EduCause needs a better list. I could understand them not recognizing the accrediting agency in a small country, but India?

[ Parent ]

Accreditation. (none / 0) (#109)
by haflinger on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 08:52:11 PM EST

There are lots of countries. Identifying all the accrediting bodies in just one of them is a chore.

With that said: Why does everybody expect ICANN to run on the now-disproven myth of "Internet time"? That's what's going on here. Now, I won't rush to the defense of ICANN. But really, guys. They're doing way better than the telcos. Have any of you placed a phone call from North America to Europe (or South America) recently? Bah.

Going from harvard.edu to lon.ac.uk (well, my mama went there, and she says it's really good :) is not such a big deal.

.edu is a historical oddity. .com, .net and .org got spread around globally because NetSol was too bored to bother checking anybody's credentials for them, and so everybody and their dogs got one. .edu didn't mostly because Large Institutions were exactly the sort of people who valued the two-letter addresses; generally speaking, NetSol charged for .edu, whereas .ca, .ac.uk, .de, .fi and so on were free, Back In The Day. (Perhaps some still are. .ca is still pretty cheap, up here in the frozen cold. :)

Did people from the future send George Carlin back in time to save rusty and K5? - leviramsey
[ Parent ]

Domains and Australian trademark law (none / 0) (#159)
by pin0cchio on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 07:41:21 AM EST

In Australia, it's been long touted that one couldn't get a .com.au without presenting business credentials, a trademark for the domain requested, etc. to the registrar

Trademark? In the United States, the USPTO won't register a trademark until the mark is used in interstate commerce, that is, after the marketing has already begun. (Here's more about "intent to use" U.S. trademark applications.)

Is the Australian trademark registrar the same way? If so, what domain are you supposed to use between when you start marketing a product and when you finally get the ®? Or do the government and the .com.au registrar recognize TM (common-law or registration pending) trademarks?

.edu would become diluted

Currently, .edu means "US universities accredited by a local agency, and non-US universities who have the money to spend on airline tickets to become accredited with a foreign agency". The article alleges the inequity that US universities are not required to purchase airline tickets.


lj65
[ Parent ]
Ermm.... (none / 0) (#107)
by EvilTri on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 08:32:07 PM EST

www.usyd.edu
www.unsw.edu

You were saying?

[ Parent ]

So... (none / 0) (#118)
by sholden on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 12:23:55 AM EST

They have them and don't even use them...

Every bit of marketing for usyd I've seen references www.usyd.edu.au.

Then again usyd isn't ashamed about being in Australia. In fact it is considered a good thing, after all better to be a university in a literate country :)

--
The world's dullest web page


[ Parent ]
UNSW is the same (none / 0) (#125)
by EvilTri on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 12:49:23 AM EST

I've only ever seen www.unsw.edu.au being used, but they've registered a number of other domains such as www.unsw.net, www.unsw.com, www.unsw.com.au, and www.unsw.edu. Personally, I find it a bit sad that an education institution like UNSW engages in similar behaviour, but there isn't much that can be done...

[ Parent ]
In which case (none / 0) (#129)
by sholden on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 12:57:29 AM EST

Rather than wanting a .edu address they probably want to stop others having a domain name that may be mistaken for their's.

After all UNSW wouldn't want USYD registering unsw.net and putting up a web page about international students being used as mules to transfer currency from China to Australia :)

--
The world's dullest web page


[ Parent ]
Apparently they couldn't cope (none / 0) (#149)
by ajf on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 03:27:47 AM EST

Because they registered sydney.edu in 1995. (It seemed stupid to me when I was there, and it still seems stupid now.)

"I have no idea if it is true or not, but given what you read on the Web, it seems to be a valid concern." -jjayson
[ Parent ]
domain names are weak (3.57 / 7) (#15)
by tps12 on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:47:54 AM EST

Get your university into Google and stick with IP addresses.

- user 26422 on 207.99.115.72

Not a bad idea /nt (5.00 / 1) (#17)
by xzap on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:49:22 AM EST




Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
democratic ICANN (3.00 / 3) (#16)
by dinu on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:48:42 AM EST

When ICANN will be democratica and the internet will be non us centric, probably the internet will be deas. ;) Which is not very far if we look at what has become of it. Also if take in account what is going on with KPNQwest and Worldcom it might just be sooner than expected.

Well, duh. (1.73 / 15) (#45)
by delmoi on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 11:17:31 AM EST

Edu is for US schools, and it should stay that way. Get edu.in or whatever you guys have in india.
--
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
question (5.00 / 2) (#54)
by hovil on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 12:00:24 PM EST

Shouldn't edu.us be for US schools?

[ Parent ]
Too late now (1.00 / 2) (#57)
by daedal on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 12:22:06 PM EST

All the .com / .org so forth are for the US: all else get .co.uk or whatever.

[ Parent ]
But why? (none / 0) (#83)
by scorbett on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 03:06:07 PM EST

Why is .edu for US schools only? Why are .gov and .mil reserved for US only, for that matter? The whole "because we invented it" argument seems rather weak, it is after all the world wide web, not the US web.

[ Parent ]
It's not the world wide web (none / 0) (#93)
by Delirium on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 04:57:12 PM EST

It's the internet, a network of originally US-based computers to which foreign computers were later added. The World Wide Web was piggy-backed on top of it, and uses the pre-existing DNS, which was US-originated and US-oriented.

Simply put, it's because the US got there first. We took .edu for US educational institutions. As other countries were added to the internet, they got their own TLDs, so things like .ac.uk and .edu.au are used by other countries.

The US could open up .edu to be an international educational domain name, but it hasn't chosen to do so (though it has gone so far as to give up control over the decision to ICANN, which is free to do so if it wishes; the US government no longer exercises direct control).

[ Parent ]

You're wrong (none / 0) (#106)
by marx on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 07:53:47 PM EST

The US could open up .edu to be an international educational domain name, but it hasn't chosen to do so
As has been previously pointed out, this statement is false. http://www.ststephens.edu is the web site of an Indian college.

Join me in the War on Torture: help eradicate torture from the world by holding torturers accountable.
[ Parent ]

a slight modification (none / 0) (#108)
by Delirium on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 08:38:09 PM EST

"The US could open up .edu to be a domain name not controlled by US-based accredation institutions, but it hasn't chosen to do so."

[ Parent ]
No. (none / 0) (#97)
by paine in the ass on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 06:10:54 PM EST

It's the domain name system, which, by virtue of things like using ASCII characters, has a clear non-internationalised bias to begin with. There are country codes for a reason, anyway; among other useful things they make sure that institutions with the same name but existing in different countries can each have the appropriate domain. And while there is a .us domain (and it IS actually heavily used, contrary to popular belief; I've seen plenty of .us sites), why would it be such an evil thing that the place that essentially started the whole shebang used a couple TLDs for itself? The "Internet" doesn't have any philosophy of egalitarianism built into it, regardless of what some idiots will tell you, so who cares?


I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion.
[ Parent ]

Suggestion: (3.20 / 15) (#56)
by vambo rool on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 12:19:59 PM EST

Go nuclear.

Great Idea but.... (1.80 / 5) (#123)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 12:40:18 AM EST

you forgot something "and attack Pakistan.". Now that would solve ALL our problems I am sure. There is a minor problem though, we're already nuclear. :)


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
accreditation nonsense (2.00 / 2) (#60)
by khallow on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 12:39:42 PM EST

While I have mixed feelings about the value of being accreditted, there's got to be a better mechanism for deciding who can have a .edu tld. There are valid reasons for being choosy. A .edu domain name can help in committing various types of Internet fraud. Perhaps you can get your acreditation recognized by the EduCause people. Seems to be the best way.

Stating the obvious since 1969.

Disgusting.... (3.14 / 7) (#71)
by thelizman on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 01:22:58 PM EST

You know, when my tax dollars underfunded the "world wide web", I don't recall being told it was the "world wide web as accredited by US educational institutions".

Tell me...where do I write letters to again?
--

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
Your tax dollars... (4.80 / 5) (#77)
by mirleid on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 02:00:55 PM EST

...did freaking *what*? As far as I remember, the World Wide Web came out of CERN, invented by a Brit. Shocking as hell, but true. The first browser was also invented there.

So, a little connection with reality while posting might help the quality of said postings.



Chickens don't give milk
[ Parent ]
kuro5hin.org? (4.00 / 1) (#79)
by Rk on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 02:18:35 PM EST

The address for CERN is http://www.cern.ch/. If you're a American, then CERN is similiar to Fermilab, albeit somewhat older. Like the European Space Agency, it is a pan-European research centre. (that predates the EU, BTW)

They're in the process of building the LHC (large hadron collider), yet another accelerator bigger and better than all the rest. Why not just build one HUGE accelerator instead of so many small ones? The small ones aren't exactly useful for ground-breaking research, AFAIK.

[ Parent ]

Sorry about that kuro5hin link (none / 0) (#88)
by mirleid on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 03:48:44 PM EST

...its what happens when you're working on several posts at the same time...



Chickens don't give milk
[ Parent ]
You = Jackass... (2.60 / 5) (#81)
by thelizman on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 02:40:12 PM EST

So I should've said "Internet" instead of "World Wide Web"...so tell me, where would the World Wide Web be if not for the Internet? And how was TBL or anyone at CERN doing anything that hadn't already been done on other systems by everyone in America from Apple to Zenith Data Systems? Oooh, the "allmighty hyperlink" started along time before any of this trash.


--

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
[ Parent ]
Look, "Lizzy"... (5.00 / 2) (#85)
by mirleid on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 03:14:48 PM EST

..even if you'd have said "Internet", it would still have been erroneous at best. What you call the "Internet" today has nothing but a relatively mild historical resemblance to what it was at its inception. Whether the US has contributed more than Europe (or any other part of the world, for that matter) is something that nobody cant tell for sure.

I'm also sure the hyperlink has got to have been invented by someone at some super-brain think tank somewhere in the US long before TBL did it. The fact of the matter is that *he* is acknowledged as the author, whereas those other super-brains that you claim invented it, *arent*. So, deal with it...or is your acne itching too much these days?



Chickens don't give milk
[ Parent ]
it's direct historical resemblance (none / 0) (#92)
by Delirium on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 04:53:11 PM EST

The .edu/.com/.net/.org domain names were created by the US government, for use by US institutions. Since then other domain names have been created by other countries, and .com/.net/.org have been opened up to foreign registrants. .edu has not, so it remains as originally created -- the domain name for US educational institutions. This is certainly not a recent development.

[ Parent ]
In the US? (none / 0) (#184)
by sgp on Sun Jun 30, 2002 at 08:35:25 PM EST

If anywhere, at BT in the UK - here's the link to the patent

There are 10 types of people in the world:
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[ Parent ]

he should've said "internet" (5.00 / 1) (#91)
by Delirium on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 04:50:21 PM EST

The domain name system predates the World Wide Web, and was developed by the United States government (and until recently its administration was directly controlled by the United States government, until they voluntarily decided to give up control to ICANN, which is arguably doing a much worse job).

The World Wide Web was developed at CERN, but its URL system piggy-backs on the already-existing (and US-controlled) domain name system.

[ Parent ]

Ah, you bought the hype (2.75 / 8) (#73)
by trhurler on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 01:33:40 PM EST

The Internet was built by and for the US. Others got involved? True, and these days, the net is worldwide. However, its underpinnings are still heavily US-centric. You can whine about this til the cows come home, but it would probably be more beneficial to work to change things in productive ways, as whining is just going to get you ignored; people who spend time, money, and ingenuity making something work are usually not particularly keen on being insulted for having done it, even if their work IS imperfect.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

A better way.. (4.00 / 1) (#95)
by ignatiusst on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 05:22:53 PM EST

What productive ways would you suggest to make changes that don't involve getting one's message out to the public or, as you so eloquently put it, "whining" about it?

Really, I would be interested in hearing your ideas on how to change this kind of system with nothing more than one's stoic will.

From my perspective and experience (and here, I will freely admit to the limitations of both), imperfect work that is not complained about generally remains imperfect.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
[ Parent ]

I say... (3.20 / 5) (#82)
by steveftoth on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 02:55:36 PM EST

dump all the .edu, .com, .org, all the non-country related domain names and make everyone register their names in their own damn country.  
That way when you browse to www.blah.com.us you know that you are getting the US version of a site, and not some site in another part of the world.
It would get rid of us-www.yourcompanyname.com which makes no sense.


There needs to be more competition (5.00 / 1) (#178)
by blisspix on Sun Jun 30, 2002 at 12:06:01 AM EST

the reason why a lot of australians register sites in the US is because of the hideous prices for domain names here. It's like $100 a year. why pay that when I can get a US .net domain for $10 a year? The cost is just about to go way down, but not in time for me.

They also require that you are a registered company or a not for profit (for org.au) which of course I as an individual cannot do, and I didn't want .name.au or somesuch other crap.

[ Parent ]

-1 Screw India (1.23 / 17) (#89)
by CmdrTroll on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 04:01:51 PM EST

Judging from the quality of life in most third world countries, the point of granting a venerable .edu domain to an unaccredited "university" in India is a non-issue at best. Find something constructive to do with your time.

CmdrTROLL - says it ALL doesnt it ? (2.33 / 3) (#152)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 04:21:37 AM EST

unaccredited : I don't need accredition from goddamn US agencies for my college to be counted as legitimate. Go to Hell Troll.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
why not us your coutry's domain? (2.50 / 2) (#90)
by Maclir on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 04:40:38 PM EST

Is there not a xxx.edu.in (what is the country code for india?) Other countries do that.

Article says for 'international image' marketing (none / 0) (#158)
by pin0cchio on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 07:19:22 AM EST

Is there not a xxx.edu.in (what is the country code for india?)

There is a *.ac.in second-level domain for academic organizations, but read the article:

the reason we want a .edu tld rather than .ac.in is because there are some foreign students studying at our college and the management wants to project what they call 'an international image'.

A .ac.in or .org is apparently cheap. Bottom line: It's a question of whether or not management thinks the .edu image is worth the cost of .edu certification.


lj65
[ Parent ]
Uh-oh (4.16 / 6) (#94)
by Kinthelt on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 05:02:16 PM EST

If tommorrow the US Government decides that even .com domains have to go through accredition by US agencies and deny domain names to those whose 'content' they don't like, what are we to do ?

Oh no, don't start giving them ideas! If there's one person in the world who's nuts enough to try and do that, it's George Dubya.

Well... him and Richard Nixon.

EDU is for US only (1.00 / 2) (#100)
by spreerpg on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 06:18:04 PM EST

Or so I believe, a quick google for Waterloo and McGill (two universities in Canada) show that they both have .ca tlds. In addition, as I understand the regulations, if no country is specified then a ".us" is assumed, meaning .com, .edu, .org are all US only. Which isn't to say its right, just that is how things are currently regulated.

---
You can kill me, but you can't eat me!
other way around (none / 0) (#104)
by shivers on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 06:37:38 PM EST

I think really its meant to be that .com/.org are international.  if the site is country specific then it should have a .uk/.us/.whatever

I assume the same applies to .edu...?


[ Parent ]

Remember, USians *made* the Internet... (none / 0) (#116)
by aechols on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 11:18:26 PM EST

...and it was a US only thing for a little while. Especially when you consider that it was originally meant to be a way for Point A to communicate with Point C via Point D after Point B gets nuked. Assuming that the .com/.net/.org/.whatever system was set up before it was all nice and internationalized, then it would make sense that .uk/.ru/.jp came later.

---
Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
[ Parent ]
Riiiiiiiiight (none / 0) (#143)
by mercutio on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 02:47:49 AM EST

And the Internet would be just as good if it was still US only.  If you weren't so busy chest-pounding you might take a moment to think about the main strength of the Internet is that it is INTERNATIONAL.

So who gives a shit who made it, lets appreciate what it is now and recognize that it's not just the US anymore.

[ Parent ]

you missed my point (none / 0) (#177)
by aechols on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 11:10:47 PM EST

I don't have a problem with the fact that it's international now. My point was that it was made in USA, so .whatever was set up here, and the international stuff came in later. I have a hard time seeing everybody that got a .com name being willing to migrate to a .co.us name.

---
Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
[ Parent ]
www.toronto.edu (none / 0) (#112)
by mattmcp on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:27:52 PM EST

The University of Toronto is a Canadian school and has a .edu. I dunno how they got it, but I'm sure being so close to the US didn't hurt them any. My (Canadian) school's .edu is already taken by a college in Minnesota.

[ Parent ]
Let's see (5.00 / 4) (#101)
by inerte on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 06:23:34 PM EST

I should tell you about registering a domain name here in Brazil:

.com.br : Need to prove you are a company. Not available to anyone else. Until 3 weeks ago only 10 domains by company;

.org.br : Have to prove you are indeed some kind of organization, including sending documents about the constitution of it and signed papers by the administrators;

.net.br : Have to be a company related to telecommunications.

And all the others, like .adv.br (for lawyers), .eti.br (for it professionals), need a proof.

It's much harder :-)

--
Bodily exercise, when compulsory, does no harm to the body; but knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind.
Plato

Isn't this how it *should* be? (4.00 / 2) (#156)
by Bnonn on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 06:56:06 AM EST

Originally, the TLDs that you mentioned had a specific meaning: ie, .com was for companies (and only companies), .org was for organisations (and only organisations) etc.

So frankly, I don't see anything wrong with the Brazillian system. Surely this is how it should be? The problem lies not with the fact that you need to prove your legimacy for a domain in Brazil, but the fact that you don't have to prove it everywhere else.

And to be fair, in order to get any TLD without a country code you should have to prove that you're an international entity. That applies to entities in the US as well.

Bleh. In my dreams the internet would be that organised...

[ Parent ]

So what's Brazil's version of .name? (5.00 / 1) (#157)
by pin0cchio on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 07:18:20 AM EST

.com was for companies (and only companies), .org was for organisations (and only organisations) etc.

Myth Busters: Under the old rules, .org did not refer to non-profit organizations. It merely referred to any entity that didn't fall into .gov, .mil, .edu, .com, and .net.

The problem lies not with the fact that you need to prove your legimacy for a domain in Brazil, but the fact that you don't have to prove it everywhere else.

Does Brazil have a local counterpart for .name for those who are not signing up on behalf of their organization?

in order to get any TLD without a country code you should have to prove that you're an international entity.

Define "international entity".


lj65
[ Parent ]
Yes, it's .nom.br (none / 0) (#168)
by inerte on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 12:20:23 PM EST

name in portuguese is "nome". So there you go, .nom.br.

But you know, like everyone else, everybody wants what anyone remembers better, .com.br ;-)

You cab grab a list here.

And www.registro.br is the only place that you can register brazillian tdls too :-)

--
Bodily exercise, when compulsory, does no harm to the body; but knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind.
Plato
[ Parent ]

Think about what you just said (1.00 / 1) (#103)
by paine in the ass on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 06:28:25 PM EST

Granted that it is not the best reason to have a .edu but if they want one I think they deserve to have one. That is what this story is about.
Now tell me what's wrong with that argument....


I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion.
oh jeesus (none / 0) (#111)
by crazycanuck on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 09:16:19 PM EST

why would anything be wrong in that statement.

they're an EDUCATIONAL institution. they want an .edu domain name.

why should they need any other reason?

[ Parent ]

Why do you think you have some right to an EDU? (1.83 / 6) (#113)
by jjayson on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:06:16 PM EST

If they suddenly decided that com/org/net were to be used only by US institutions and all other countries were to use appropriate country codes --- effectively making them implicitely carry a ".us" suffix --- why would that be a problem? Then this would be the same situation as gov/mil.

Considering the origins of DNS (before the RFCs on where to assign names), this sounds like a reasonalbe way to interpret things. Maybe individuals or groups that do not exist in the US and have a com/org/net TLD should just be thankful that they have one there, and others should not try to claim that they have some form of right to a TLD of their choice.

When I was young my mother taught me:  when playing with other people's toys, respect their wishes and play by their rules. How is this any different?  Maybe you should just be thankful that you were even invited on the US born and nurtured network, in the first place.

-j
"Even I can do poler co-ordinates and i can't even spell my own name." - nodsmasher
You better take care of me, Lord. If you don't

Its not your toy dude (none / 0) (#122)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 12:37:06 AM EST

Just because some boys from US military invented it, it's not your property.

It is this 'We 0wn the 1nt3rnet' attitude of some USians that makes people wary of most of them. They cant just 'suddenly decide' to force all companies to use a country TLD and give up their .com / .net s because you dont own the net dude. Now grow up and stop calling everyones toys your own.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
What part of net does India own? (1.00 / 4) (#132)
by jjayson on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 01:27:00 AM EST

I don't understand.  The US created and nurtured the Internet and DNS since it was just a lowly DARPA project.  What part of the net is not ours and India has a right to mandate how it is used?  Why?

-j
"Even I can do poler co-ordinates and i can't even spell my own name." - nodsmasher
You better take care of me, Lord. If you don't
[ Parent ]
WTF! (1.00 / 1) (#135)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 01:47:52 AM EST

India ? India owns NO part of the net, nor does the US. But you don't understand which part of the net is not yours ? Meaning you think the entire internet is yours ? I can't argue with such a superior sense of dumbness. I give up Fuhrer Bush.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
When did the US stop owning it? (3.50 / 2) (#139)
by jjayson on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 02:29:41 AM EST

I think that we can all agree that the US did own the Internet when it was still a research project and also when it was strictly on US grounds.

Now, when did the US loose the ability to control domain name allocation to the non-country code domain names. I can't believe that it gave this up when the first non-US server was put online; I don't see the reasoning behind that. How about two servers in different countries? How about a backbone router in another country? None of those seem to be enough for the US to relinquish its ownership, especially when the US created seperate top-level domain names for each country.  I could see your point if there were no other option.

Maybe if you explained why you think that you have some right or deserve an edu domain --- istead of insulting me --- I would understand you better.


-j
"Even I can do poler co-ordinates and i can't even spell my own name." - nodsmasher
You better take care of me, Lord. If you don't
[ Parent ]

Ladies and Gentlemen, US owns the internet (2.50 / 2) (#146)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 03:09:38 AM EST

I don't see the reasoning

No thats wrong. The right way to put it is :

I don't see reason.

You can keep "your" internet.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
Nobody said... (1.00 / 1) (#134)
by irie bj on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 01:37:34 AM EST

that the US would strip domain names from companies that already have them. However, if we decided not to issue new .com, .edu, or .net domains to foreign entities, that is our (the U.S.) prerogative.

While we may not wholly own the Internet, we did invent it weather you like it or not. TCP/IP is an exclusively US creation, as are many if not most of the other widely used protocols floating around on the Internet.

I suggest you get a helmet.

I need a witty sig.
[ Parent ]

What ? (none / 0) (#136)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 01:54:22 AM EST

You invented TCP/IP so now you can control the internet like its your own ? Next the US government will want to regulate the number of phone calls I make, after all you invented the telephone also. Or was it the British, I pray to God it was the British.

US doesn't and never will own the internet. And it cannot and will not regulate .com and .net. It better not.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
Actually it was a Canadian (none / 0) (#145)
by mercutio on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 02:53:01 AM EST

It was Alexander Graham Bell, a Canadian working in the US.

[ Parent ]
Wishes (5.00 / 2) (#140)
by marx on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 02:38:12 AM EST

When I was young my mother taught me: when playing with other people's toys, respect their wishes and play by their rules.
Ok, fine. This is my wish:

Next time your packets go through the EU, get on your knees and say "I'm a spoiled little capitalist brat, please spank me until I cry".

Join me in the War on Torture: help eradicate torture from the world by holding torturers accountable.
[ Parent ]

You prick (1.25 / 4) (#144)
by mercutio on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 02:51:19 AM EST

If you were the child whose toys I was playing with, I'd beat the shit out of you for being a prick.

[ Parent ]
What about .whatever TLD? (3.00 / 1) (#114)
by iggie on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:50:59 PM EST

I think ICANN and the US Government before it should have been a lot more draconic about the .com .org and .net domains from the start. These are now free for alls and have no meaning whatsoever. I think you should have to register a trademark to get a .com, be in telcom to get a .net, be an NGO to get a .org, etc.
As far as .edu, you have to be accredited by whatever mechanism is used to accredit educational institutions. If you have an international trademark, you get a .com, a us trademark, you get a .com.us, internationally accredited, a .edu, accredited by India, a .edu.in., and so forth. This really isn't that hard. All the yahoos that don't have anything to show for themselves then go into .whatever (making a convenient spam filter). Everyone is happy, no?
The only reason you even want a .edu is that this TLD was controlled to some extent, making it more valuable. If it wasn't controlled, and every Tom, Dick and Harry got to have one, then it would be pretty worthless, right? It only comes down to who does the controlling. I don't know how accreditation works exactly, but I think it does for the most part. If whoever controlls .edu doesn't recognize your accreditation, then its a problem. If your accreditation is recognized only in India, then you need to think about getting accredited by a more 'international' body, which is your goal here after all.


WRONG (none / 0) (#120)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 12:28:44 AM EST

If you read what I wrote carefully, we started the process of registering .edu when it wasn't controlled or atleast we didn't know that it had become restricted. That was just two months back when Network Solutions were the registrars and they accepted certification from any government to register you as a .edu. Hence SEVERAL NON-US colleges have a .edu. This has been changed now and our desire to have a .edu doesn't have anything to do with the fact that it is restricted.

Please note that even today there are about 8 non US that have been certified by the said US certifying agencies and so have been granted a .edu domain. Hence there is no stated policy of granting .edu to US institutes only.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
What about .int (3.00 / 2) (#115)
by Anonymous Brave on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 11:08:25 PM EST

I'm not American myself and I still think .edu shouldn't be used in this case. In fact I think .com should be used only by American companies, and sony.co.jp or philips.nl would make more sense. If the project is so international as you mention, then .int should be the way to go. If .us would be mandatory, I think nothing of this would happen... most people don't know .us is implicit in a few domains out there, like in .com.
correspondente.net - reflectir e discutir em portuguÍs
Since when was America the centre of the universe? (none / 0) (#117)
by synik on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 11:42:41 PM EST

Why should only the US have .edu and .com? .edu.us and .com.au would make more sense. .edu and .com are better used for major international institutions.

[ Parent ]
Re (3.16 / 6) (#155)
by emmons on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 05:35:34 AM EST

The US gets to have .edu, .com, .net, .org, .gov and .mil because we invented the thing and therefore got first dibs on the TLDs.

If the 'net were invented by your country, you could have done the same.

---
In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams

[ Parent ]

And in England.. (none / 0) (#199)
by tonyenkiducx on Tue Sep 03, 2002 at 05:14:14 AM EST

We practically invented the computer.. And Linus practically invented the software that runs the majority of internet servers.. Do you still think you invented the internet? Or maybe that you just invented a part of it, and took control of as much of it as you possibly could?

Tony.
I see a planet where love is foremost, where war is none existant. A planet of peace, and a planet of understanding. I see a planet called utopia. And I see us invading that planet, because they'd never expect it
[ Parent ]
Hello (1.75 / 8) (#119)
by Rahaan on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 12:24:47 AM EST

Why do you hate America so much?


you know, jake.. i've noticed that, since the tacos started coming, the mail doesn't so much come as often, or even at all
I Don't (5.00 / 1) (#121)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 12:32:16 AM EST

I love America because the US military 'invented' the internet. ( Apparently Al-Gore also had a major hand in it. No ? ;) )

I would love it more if they recognise the free nature of the internet and stop trying to treat it as their property. That said, there is nothing in this article that even implies that I am against US or its government. I would be just as angry if it were a Indonesian company that was doing this.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
it was a joke (none / 0) (#126)
by mikeliu on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 12:50:48 AM EST

I do believe you are replying to a joke by the parent poster.

A word for the non-American:
These days in USA with all its jingoistic patriotic goodness, the stereotypical conservative response to anyone questioning the way any government policy is run is "Why do you hate America so much?"  It's over the top, and it's not actually that bad, but it still is heard way too often these days whenever anyone refuses to toe the party line.

[ Parent ]

I'm so sick of hearing this (2.00 / 2) (#165)
by Quick Star on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 08:13:36 AM EST

    "Apparently Al-Gore also had a major hand in it. No ?

As a matter of fact, he DID have a major role.  He was instrumental in getting it FUNDING.  So, in fact, he WAS partially responsible for the existence of what we call the Internet.

"absolutely no one can sex a lobster without cutting it open" -- rusty
[ Parent ]

International image? (3.75 / 4) (#124)
by quartz on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 12:41:45 AM EST

WTF? How exactly would a .edu URL would give your university an "international image"? In case you haven't noticed, ".edu" means precisely dick to pretty much every Internet-connected country in the world, except for the US.

In Europe when we want to find the website of a particular university on the Internet, the first thing we do is look under the TLD of the country where the university is located. Why the heck would I expect to find Sorbonne or Cambridge, for example, in the ".edu" namespace instead of ".fr" and ".uk" respectively? It makes absolutely no sense to me.

I suggest you revise your definition of "international".

--
Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke, and fuck 'em even if they can.

It is irrelevant (none / 0) (#128)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 12:55:25 AM EST

My definition of international may be as warped as it can get but if I want a .edu I deserve one. This must be the 100th time I am saying this here.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
You can have... (1.00 / 1) (#130)
by quartz on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 01:07:01 AM EST

whatever domain you fancy as far as I'm concerned, even .goatse.cx if you so wish. That was not my point. My point was that a .edu will give you as much of an international image as .goatse.cx.

Well, that's not true actually, as goatse.cx is by far more international than .edu.

--
Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke, and fuck 'em even if they can.
[ Parent ]

Coming soon (2.50 / 2) (#137)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 01:56:38 AM EST

www.goatse.cx.edu - starring Mr.Goat, wolf and Tombuck. Premium lessons in goatse, try it all on Tombuck!


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
Fear (none / 0) (#142)
by mercutio on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 02:42:55 AM EST

That was one of the scariest things I've read.

[ Parent ]
doidydoidy.edu (none / 0) (#150)
by ajf on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 03:52:56 AM EST

My definition of international may be as warped as it can get but if I want a .edu I deserve one.

OK, if I really, really want doidydoidy.edu, should I get it? I'm sure you'd agree that would be stupid.

So stop bleating about discrimination, because discrimination is a good thing here. Restricting .edu to accredited educational institutions is a good thing. Your problem comes about because the registrar only recognises certain US-based accreditation.

You've also mentioned in a number of comments that .edu was not restricted to US-only registrations until recently. You should, however, realise that .edu was originally intended for US use, and the vast majority of .edu domains are for US institutions. So it's not surprising, when somebody new takes over the .edu registry and creates a policy for it, that they would design a system for the benefit of American institutions.

I'm not saying that this is right - in my opinion, .edu should either be international in scope or phased out altogether - but, since .edu was originally created for US institutions, it is not unreasonable for the registrars to make that their primary focus.

"I have no idea if it is true or not, but given what you read on the Web, it seems to be a valid concern." -jjayson
[ Parent ]

Please read properly (none / 0) (#151)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 04:14:21 AM EST

I said my definition of *international* could be as warped as I want and I still deserve a .edu. I do because I represent an educational institute which has been recognised by both the Indian Government and my state technical education board. I have never ever stated that any doidydoidy should get a .edu

As far as your ".edu was meant for US only argument is concerned, please read RFC 1591, Domain Name System Structure and Delegation that I have quoted in another comment . (originally posted by Nysidia).

.edu was NOT created exclusively for US use and in that case I am sure you will agree that my point is valid.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
if I want one (none / 0) (#196)
by ShiteNick on Thu Jul 25, 2002 at 03:39:12 PM EST

I want a million dollars. And I deserve them cause I say so. Why can't I have a million dollars?

How about justification of your requirements? Tell us what your institution is? Tell us why a .ac.in will not suffice?

Personally, I think that all Indian educational institutes should use a .ac.in since it's governed by an Indian company which is far more capable of identifying your true status.

[ Parent ]
its better than those offensive sites with.edu tld (2.50 / 2) (#164)
by rss on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 08:07:48 AM EST

there are many p0rn sites .edu well i don't want rusty to remove my account from k5 otherwise i would have put a link to those here.
but in any case an engineering college is more deserving party than a bomb making schools or lock picking schools (all of them have been approved by educase)

[ Parent ]
Prove there are porn ".edu" sites (none / 0) (#170)
by jjayson on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 02:12:31 PM EST

there are many p0rn sites .edu well i don't want rusty to remove my account from k5 otherwise i would have put a link to those here.
Prove it. I doubt rusty will delete your account (considering people often post goatse.cx links and he does nothing about it). If you worried about that though, use my email address above.

-j
"Even I can do poler co-ordinates and i can't even spell my own name." - nodsmasher
You better take care of me, Lord. If you don't
[ Parent ]
.edu Has Never Been Exclusively for US (3.25 / 4) (#127)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 12:54:00 AM EST

There are several comments out here stating that .edu was or is only for US institutes. This is VERY UNTRUE.

Several Non US institutes have a .edu because until two months back there was NO problem for anyone anywhere in the world to get a .edu as long as they were an educational institute of higher studies. (Indeed the last link up there is an 'Unofficial site' of an Indian institute put up by its alumni. Others are Canadian and French). This changed when Educause took up as registrars. Even today you can get a .edu wherever you are if you get accredited by one of US regional accredition agencies.Go here and confirm that for yourself.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
Hint: Read the Story (1.00 / 2) (#141)
by mercutio on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 02:40:33 AM EST

From the story:

Obviously my college cannot afford to boot the charges for committees from these institutions to come to our college and recognise it just to get a domain name.

Wow, I wish people would read the story before they make comments.  He knows about the regional accredition agencies, but he's in India, not the US.  I repeat, he's in India.  It costs money to fly to India.  The college would have to pay that agency for their expenses.  This was all said in the story.

[ Parent ]

My friend, I WROTE this story :) .... (5.00 / 2) (#147)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 03:14:37 AM EST

This comment may seem contradictory to you, but see it in the context that several people were saying that we are not entitled to a .edu domain as .edu has always been exclusively for US use. In the comment I was giving proof to refute that claim. I should've added though that it is not feasible for non US institutes to get themselves a .edu as it would be very costly under the current system.

Anyway, have a good day !


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
Because of the ad-hoc nature of registration (4.50 / 2) (#186)
by porkchop_d_clown on Mon Jul 01, 2002 at 10:30:06 AM EST

In the early days, all you needed to get a TLD was to know someone who knew someone. So, non-US institutions that were willing to actually pay the cost to hook up to the Internet had no problem.

These days there's too many TLDs. Period. I realize there would be a huge shake out if we had another "great renaming" like there was once long ago - but moving all TLD sites (including my own!) down one level would tremendously help all around.


--
ACK.


[ Parent ]
Too many TLDs? (none / 0) (#188)
by Mitheral on Tue Jul 02, 2002 at 06:41:24 PM EST

Actually a good case can be made that their aren't enough TLDs. If the TLDs had as much intrinsic meaning as area codes (ie. none) then there wouldn't be as many disagreements re TLDs. Brad Templeton of clarinet fame has a great essay on this topic. It's a long read but well worth it.

[ Parent ]
originally (5.00 / 4) (#138)
by raaymoose on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 01:59:11 AM EST

All Canadian universities had an .edu tld, and many of them still resolve to the correct address. But in 1997 or so, it was decided that they would all transfer over to .ca, but I cannot recall why.

Says it all - And thankyou Mysidia (5.00 / 1) (#148)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 03:21:24 AM EST

EDU - This domain was originally intended for all educational institutions. Many Universities, colleges, schools, educational service organizations, and educational consortia have registered here. More recently a decision has been taken to limit further registrations to 4 year colleges and universities. Schools and 2-year colleges will be registered in the country domains (see US Domain, especially K12 and CC, below). (RFC 1591, Domain Name System Structure and Delegation) 4 year colleges/universities does not imply US colleges and universities.


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
Is this story a troll? (2.50 / 4) (#154)
by Master Of Ninja on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 05:29:53 AM EST

What you have to see here is that the system was US built and the DNS is still under US control. So if you want a domain name you have to play by the rules that the registers set down for you. There's no point in crying about it to us. Although the main internet works on standards, to connect to the original (predominantly) US based network you need the IP address from the US government, and you want to be able to access the DNS to allow you to look up servers easily.

I can see your point about why you want a .edu suffix, but really, just get the local country code suffix for it, and then get the .com to prevent cybersquatters. Most universities in the UK manage quite well with .ac.uk, so I can't see why you can't get something like .ac.in.

If you're not entitled to get a .edu now, appeal to the main board, and then do something constructive like getting the .ac.in name. The main point of the name is to allow people to get to your website. This should suffice.

If you're really annoyed, go set up your own DNS system, and convince everyone to use it (not joking here). Get everyone to use that (in India at first) and then you can have your own .edu. Do some constructive complaining.

hey don't underestimate us!! (none / 0) (#163)
by rss on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 08:02:35 AM EST

'scuse me gimme a break.................
well according to the last count, there are 2000 and odd *.ac.in and domains and 1000+ *.edu domains owned by educational institutions in india.
we do have .ac.in domains and we are using it to the max.

[ Parent ]
well...........edu!! why not ac.in (2.50 / 4) (#162)
by rss on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 07:57:40 AM EST

hi buddy !!
well i'm too from india and am in XII and so i have to wait for one more year to join an engineering college.
i'm sure you guys would have approached Net4domains right???
if yes, i would have better suggested you not to go to those dumb assholes who have no work ethics etc...etc.....
i say this because of my previous experience with them, i had actually wanted to register a domain name with .org tld and was pretty sure that domain didn't exist before and i sent a cheque(hmmmmm in yankee english... check) for 350 INR and even after two and a half months after my cheque had been encashed from my bank account they had not activated my domain name and when i tried to contact them, they gave some lame reasons and to my astonishment after few days an italian company registered the same domain and this duffers when
i contacted them for clarifications said that the italian company had registered the domain before me and the whois records showed the registration date to be exactly two weeks and three days after this guys had encashed my money.......
and to boot they sent me back my money deducting the postage charges !!
now it is eight months after the incident had happened now i know why i couldn't register my domain name, the italian company owner is none other than one of net4india(which owns net4domains) partners!!
next october i'll turn eighteen and that means i can sue them!!!

about your college's domain name why not go for .ac.in and good old NCST guys have made it *free* for Indian educational institustions and obviously you have show the necessary documents for registration and the site should be hosted in india.
well go to http://domain.ncst.ernet.in/
there its specified that an ac.in costs you 1,500 bucks but they haven't updated the latest info
you contact those guys there.
i definitely know its free.
bye
ravi

Thanks for the info ravi (none / 0) (#166)
by xzap on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 09:23:30 AM EST

ac.in is the way to go now. I've had a bad experience with Net4Domains before so I went to someone else this time, I better not quote their name, they still owe me some money from another transaction and I want it back :).


Remember the unique wonder and terror of life, and knowing it, live. - adequate nathan
[ Parent ]
International Image - bullshit! (3.00 / 7) (#167)
by bayankaran on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 10:47:02 AM EST

I can agree to any reason other than 'projecting an international image' for having a .edu domain for your college.

.edu or .ac.in or .in.edu or .edu.in - none of these are going to change the quality of education (or lack of it) your school provides. Also prospective international students your school wants to attract are not going to bother about the domain name of your school.

And why is so important you have to imitate the west?

For a group of people who claim tolerance (2.00 / 2) (#172)
by janra on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 04:37:08 PM EST

For a group of people who (overall) seem to pride themselves on their tolerance and sophistication, there's a hell of a lot of xenophobia dripping from the comments on this story.

Yes, xenophobia. There are a lot of comments that say, basically, "it's ours, you can't have it, go play in your own domain." What else can I call it? Somebody who isn't American has the (gasp) audacity to ask for a domain in a chartered generic TLD - i.e., not a country-specific TLD - and people claim they don't belong there, because they aren't in a specific country. Never mind that they fall under the charter - an accredited university, in this case - they're not in the right country to use a non-country-specific TLD.

I haven't seen anybody give a good reason why this university shouldn't get a .edu domain. It's not like they're a "dial-a-diploma" scam.
--
Discuss the art and craft of writing
That's the problem with world domination... Nobody is willing to wait for it anymore, work slowly towards it, drink more and enjoy the ride more.

They should be allowed to get a .edu, but... (3.50 / 2) (#175)
by markaze on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 06:10:46 PM EST

...it shouldn't be a piece of cake.

I have no problem with .edu domain names being restricted by ICANN (the US Govt has NOTHING to do with any of this).

My AP English teacher last year would only accept online sources if they were from .edu's, the reason being that I could go to a website like this one and pull up a BS story written authoritatively but full of factual errors.

The Indian school has a fair opportunity to get a .edu, and yes it may be expensive, but I think it's necessary.  Keep in mind that, while I believe this guy, he could be lying pretty easily.

_
"To each of them it seemed plain that things were just at that stage when a word or so of plain sense, spoken in a new voice, would restore the whole room to sanity" -C.S. Lewis
[ Parent ]

Agreed (2.00 / 1) (#176)
by janra on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 08:37:02 PM EST

...even with your "but".

If the school has submitted proof from that country's accreditation board that it is an accredited university (and if the author is telling the truth, it has), then it should get its .edu. That is what I meant by a chartered TLD: you have to prove that you belong there.

I do not, however, think that only universities accredited by US accreditation boards should be eligible for a .edu.


--
Discuss the art and craft of writing
That's the problem with world domination... Nobody is willing to wait for it anymore, work slowly towards it, drink more and enjoy the ride more.
[ Parent ]
Extreme pain (4.00 / 1) (#173)
by RandomPeon on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 05:17:49 PM EST

I agree with you - .edu should not be US controlled. Unfortunately, .edu is arguably one of the most collision-prone TLD's - everyone wants to have ux.edu or uxx.edu.

Ideally, we would do the Right Thing and use .edu.us for the vast majority of existing .edu's. This would involve tremendous amounts of pain. There are literally millions of links that would need to be changed, a lot of them on obscure pages. Millions more bookmarks need to change, mailserver addresses, you name it. It's a tremendous amount of effort for very little gain. Domain name are not trivial to change. I've seen it done on a much smaller scale (a law firm) and even that was not painless. (These guys had an advantage too - they were changing their name from something like hollierklimsonperkins.com to hkp.com so everyone wanted to use the new name.)

Another problem is that .edu should be only for accredited institutions. We need either a worldwide accrediting body, or we just need to have national accrediting bodies do the work. I think it is far more workable to use the latter. When I go to an ac.uk I know that site is run by an accredited UK institution. When I go to a .edu.ca I know Canada has accredited that school, and so on. Due to an accident of history, .edu by itself implies US accreditation.

.edu.ca? (none / 0) (#181)
by jobeus on Sun Jun 30, 2002 at 05:38:17 PM EST

I've never seen this .edu.ca suffix you speak of. My own school is merely ucalgary.ca, and other ones I can think of off the top of my head (all accredited) are ualberta.ca, athabascau.ca, ubc.ca, uvic.ca, queensu.ca, uwaterloo.ca, etc etc. No .edu.cas, and I can't seem to find any .edu.cas that exist either. So..?

[ Parent ]
Justice == Just US == Just U.S. (2.50 / 2) (#174)
by Bandar Log on Sat Jun 29, 2002 at 06:07:40 PM EST

The Domain Name system is one of the pillars on which the internet stands. If there is such blatant discrimination in this system, I fear the internet will not stay as free as it is for long. If tomorrow the US Government decides that even .com domains have to go through accredition by US agencies and deny domain names to those whose 'content' they don't like, what are we to do ? We have to find a way to take the central control of systems that are critical to the existence of the internet from individual countries and make them unbiased, more accessible and available for all. The question I ask you is how ?

The domain naming system (and the early arpanet) was once run by geeks. Technically wise, socially advanced, geeks. Then sometime in the early '90s, the internet became commercialized in a big way (this corresponded with the appearance of the WWW), and later IANA (in charge of DNS names and top-level domains) became ICANN, and is now run not by socially-enlightened geeks, but by people who seem to be responsive to large corporate interests.

Expecting fairness from the current ICANN is expecting a bit much, I think. When money is in the driver's seat, justice gets left standing out in rain.

I think your school should get an EDU domain. But don't hold your breath.

Relections on RFC 1591 & RFC 1480 (3.50 / 4) (#187)
by juliusseizure on Tue Jul 02, 2002 at 03:06:27 AM EST

I quote from RFC 1591
" EDU - This domain was originally intended for all educational
         institutions.  Many Universities, colleges, schools,
         educational service organizations, and educational consortia
         have registered here.  More recently a decision has been taken
         to limit further registrations to 4 year colleges and
         universities.  Schools and 2-year colleges will be registered
         in the country domains (see US Domain, especially K12 and CC,
         below)."

Further more, RFC 1480 states that,
" Even though the original intention was that any educational
   institution anywhere in the world could be registered under the EDU
   domain, in practice, it has turned out with few exceptions, only
   those in the United States have registered under EDU, similarly with
   COM (for commercial)... Because organizations in the United States have registered primarily
   in the EDU and COM domains, little use was initially made of the US
   domain."

Clearly, there is no mention, neither any intention of having .edu be an only US privilege. Just because  most of the US institutions have registered using .edu doesn't make it US only. Granted that the reason stated in the story is lame, I still feel as a matter of principle it shouldn't be this hard to get non-US institutions registered under the .edu domain.

My 0.02 monetary units

Cheers!
JS


Role of ICANN? (3.00 / 1) (#189)
by ukryule on Wed Jul 03, 2002 at 03:58:45 AM EST

From EduCases website:
On October 29, 2001, the U.S. Department of Commerce awarded a five-year cooperative agreement to EDUCAUSE for managing the .edu top-level domain.
I thought it was ICANN who was responsible for the management of domain name (and so decided which companies get to control which TLDs) - but this implies the U.S. government is ultimately responsible for .edu (and i guess .mil/.gov).

As has already been pointed out, the original goal of the '.edu' was not restricted to the US. However, in setting up the policy with Educause the US government has made US accreditation explicit. This is an amazingly pariochial decision - it's not just a historical oddity, it's a move away from internationalisation.

Note that Educause do have a forum for discussion on their policy, but they limit the discussion to the types of US insititutions which should be allowed.

"College" (2.33 / 6) (#190)
by rasactive on Tue Jul 09, 2002 at 02:50:52 PM EST

It's common knowledge that the education in the US is vastly superior to that in INDIA.ICANN, being an American organization, reserves the right to choose who gets access to the .edu TLD. Perhaps if the Indian government worked towards fixing the glaring holes in their education system, ICANN would grant you a domain name. This seems to me to be an obvious scenario where you simply don't deserve what you're asking for.

Why should we listen to India anyway? (3.00 / 8) (#191)
by CmdrTroll on Tue Jul 09, 2002 at 03:07:24 PM EST

Any nation that demands concessions from the United States should be summarily ignored and embargoed.

America is a sovereign nation and we will do what is right, without being bullied by less civilized countries like India (or any other country whose primary function is to breed peasants).

We should never give in to India and allow them to corrupt the .edu domain with their army of uneducated, hocus-pocus cow worshippers. After all, isn't this what Osama bin Laden wanted? America, cowering at the knees of a foreign power? Have all of the NYC firefighters died in vain?

[ Parent ]

Very intelligent, I must say!! (1.00 / 2) (#192)
by juliusseizure on Wed Jul 10, 2002 at 06:32:29 PM EST

America is a sovereign nation and we will do what is right, without being bullied by less civilized countries like India (or any other country whose primary function is to breed peasants).

And the primary function of America is to breed trolls like you??

Please elucidate. And try to think of well reasoned arguments.

Cheers!

JS

[ Parent ]

how many states are there is US? (none / 0) (#193)
by saint on Sat Jul 20, 2002 at 07:28:21 PM EST

oh my, i see now what you mean vastly _SUPERIOR_.
No violence, gentlemen -- no violence, I beg of you! Consider the furniture! -- Sherlock Holmes
[ Parent ]
somebody didn't get the joke [nt] (none / 0) (#194)
by rasactive on Thu Jul 25, 2002 at 12:01:36 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Gotcha .edu guys!! (none / 0) (#197)
by futurama on Thu Aug 08, 2002 at 03:25:50 PM EST

as someone above mentioned, the internet should be run by socially advanced, intelligent geeks , instead of so-called-cultured guys who bully others.

you guys wait. you will get an .edu . this is a good post and i think you can speak to the indian embassy in US regarding this.

nothing stops the spirited

Bloody Americans! (none / 0) (#198)
by bigbtommy on Sat Aug 10, 2002 at 07:32:28 AM EST

What makes them think they control the Internet and the "World Wide" web?

It's stereotypical of American's - wanting to play god with every new toy that comes out.

We really need to start again with the DNS system and give everyone a vote in how it's run.
-- bbCity.co.uk - When I see kids, I speed up

Gimme my .edu | 199 comments (160 topical, 39 editorial, 2 hidden)
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