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[P]
Netsukuku the Anarchical Parallel Internet

By AlpT in Internet
Sat Oct 08, 2005 at 10:20:32 PM EST
Tags: Internet (all tags)
Internet

Developed by the Freaknet, Netsukuku is a new p2p routing system, which will be utilised to build a worldwide distributed, anonymous and anarchical network, separated from the Internet, without the support of any servers, ISPs or authority controls. In a p2p network every node acts as a router, therefore in order to solve the problem of computing and storing the routes for 2^128 nodes, Netsukuku makes use of a new meta-algorithm, which exploits the chaos to avoid cpu consumption and fractals to keep the map of the whole net constantly under the size of 2Kb. Netsukuku includes also the Abnormal Netsukuku Domain Name Anarchy, a non hierarchical and decentralised system of hostnames management which replaces the DNS. It runs on GNU/Linux.


DISCLAIMER : I am part of this project and I am not a native english speaker.

Internet it's a hierarchic network managed by multinational companies and organizations supported by governments. Each bit of Internet traffic passes through their backbones and routers. The well-deserving Internet Service Providers give the connectivity to all of the poor humans, who are in the lowest rank of this hierarchic pyramid, warranting, in this way, the global shared ownership of Internet and its free access, obviously, in accordance with the rightful and wise principle of equality. They ask, in exchange, a "small" money fee to obtain the right to join this network. Beside that, the information, the knowledge and the communication don't surely grow as spontaneous fruits on the trees. Thank to their generous service, about 600 million of people can be connected to the great, free and anonymous network. To the remaining 5 billion and 400 million of people, who cannot allow themself to this luxury, they say to try in another time, when there will be no more wars and the peace will rule.

Going back to the multinationals: what will happen if one of them or an ISP decides to no more supply the service? The answer is simple: entire nations will be immediately cut out of the Internet. Paradoxally Internet was born with the intent of warranting a secure communication, unattackable between the various nodes of the network. And what will happen if one of these multinationals will stipulate a secret or public agreement with some governments to control the data traffic and trace back real or presumed "terrorists"? The traffic will be traced back, analysed and the potential "terrorists" submitted, without any restrictions, to unlimited controls.

The centralised and hierarchical structure of Internet creates, as a consequence, other identical systems, which are based on it, i.e. the DNS The servers of the Domain Name Servers are managed by different ISP, as well, and the domains are literally sold out and the of a centralised system remain unmutated. This kind of structure allows, in a very simple and efficient way, to physically localise any computers, which are connected to Internet, in a very short time and without any particular efforts. In China, the whole net is constantly watched by several computers which filter the Internet traffic: a Chinese will never be able to see or came to know about a site which contains some keywords censored by the government. And if he'll try to express his own ideas on the net, in spite of what the policy or the government is, he will risk the death penality.

Internet was born to satisfy the military needs of security for the administration of the American defence. And during the time its basic structure never changed and never will change. Freedom of communication and information on Internet will always be denied: in order to communicate each other we'll always be obliged to ask the permission of the central authority and ask for the support of big multinationals, and in this way they'll continue to expand their own kingdom. If the destiny of all the efforts to make Internet the exclusive medium of communication is to fail, then there is no any other solution than change it. How? With a distributed, decentralised and fully efficient net, which will never be under control of any governments.

Here comes Netsukuku. Netsukuku is a mesh network or a p2p net composed by a net protocol for dynamic routing called Npv7_HT, it is designed to handle an unlimited number of nodes with minimal CPU and memory resources. Actually there is wide number of protocols and algorithms for the dynamic routing, but they differ from the Npv7_HT, 'cause they are solely utilized to create small and medium nets. The routers of Internet are also managed by different protocols as the OSPF, the RIP, or the BGP, based on different classical algorithms, able to find out the best path to reach a node in the net. These protocols require a very high waste of cpu and memory, this is the reason why the Internet routers are computers specifically dedicated to this purpose. It would be impossible to implement one these protocols in order to create and maintain such a net as Netsukuku is, where every each node is a router by itself, because the map of all the routes would require a space, on each pc connected to the net, of about 1 hundred Gb.

Keep in mind that it is a _physical network_, it isn't built upon any other existing net, therefore there must be computers linked _physically_ each other, then Netsukuku will build the routes.

The Npv7 structures the entire net as a fractal and, in order to calculate all the needed routes which are necessary to connect a node to all the other nodes, it makes use of a particular algorithm called Quantum Shortest Path Netsukuku (QSPN). A fractal is a mathematical structure which can be compressed up to the infinite, because inside it, every part itself is composed by the same fractal. Thus there is a high compressione of a structure which can be infinitely expanded. This means that we need just a few Kb to keep the whole Netsukuku map. On the other hand, the QSPN is a meta-algorithm in the sense that it doesn't follow any predefined mathematical instructions but exploits the chance and the chaos, which both don't need any computation. In other words, also a simple calculator can work using the QSPN to be connected to Netsukuku.

Netsukuku is not restricted solely to the creation of a net of computers, it is a protocol which implements a pure net, and alike every net protocol can be used in all the situations in which it's necessary to connect different nodes to each other.
Let's take in exam the case of mobile phones. Also the mobile phone net is a hierarchic and centralised net. Thousands of nodes hook to a same cell, which will sort the traffic to the other cells and these, finally, will send the data to the destinator-nodes. Well, Netsukuku can be used also by mobile phones, making pointless the existence of all the mobile telecommunication companies.
This can be applied to all the systems of communication which are used nowadays. The best medium to make the nodes linked each other is, obviously, the wifi, but any kind of links, which connects two nodes can be used for the same purpose. The mobile phones are a great device, where Netsukuku can run. Some of the newest models use Linux as kernel.

ANDNA is the distributed, non hierarchical and decentralised system of hostname management in Netsukuku. It substitutes the DNS. The ANDNA database is scattered inside all the Netsukuku and the worst of cases every node will have to use about 355 Kb of memory.

ANDNA works basically in the following way: in order to resolve a hostname we just have to calculate its hash. The hash is nothing more than a number and we consider this number as an ip and the node related to that ip is called andna_hash_node. Practically the hash_node will keep a small database, which associates all the hostnames related to it with the ip of the node, which has registered the same hostnames.

You should really read the documentation then take a look at the FAQs. Note that this doesn't pretend to be _now_ the final solution to the meaning of life, the universe and everything, if you want to help in the development, read the code and contact us ;)

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Netsukuku the Anarchical Parallel Internet | 131 comments (93 topical, 38 editorial, 0 hidden)
separated from the Internet? (3.00 / 9) (#2)
by wiredog on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 10:50:55 AM EST

How? Someone is building all new infrastructure? Who's paying for that?

Wilford Brimley scares my chickens.
Phil the Canuck

Jeez, not *ANOTHER* one (2.85 / 14) (#4)
by some nerd on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 11:14:21 AM EST

Making anonymous network systems both adequately secure against the many, many attacks when you can't trust hardly anything, yet performant enough to be useful is very, very hard. Yet this doesn't seem to stop people constantly implementing their own pet theories from scratch. I've had a quick read of the oh-so-kewl cyberpunk docs and it doesn't sound like it comes anywhere near. Rather, development time has been spent mostly thinking of really leet names for everything.

Flooding, harvesting, black hole nodes, routing table takeover DoS / sniffing and node probing all appear to be quite feasible in this network. Node takedown can effectively censor content. The amazing "fractal algorithm" isn't backed up by maths and sounds like they just reinvented OSPF or something. If you've got genuinely useful ideas for such networks then great, but for crying out loud go and help with established projects with experience / solid mathematical theory behind them and devs that actually think about attack resistance. Specifically the Freenet 0.7 globally scalable darknet rewrite or maybe i2p (though the latter is inherrently harvestable). Just please stop constantly reinventing the wheel, poorly.

"Whenever someone thinks that they can replace SSL/SSH with something much better that they designed this morning over coffee, their computer speakers should generate some sort of penis-shaped sound wave and plunge it repeatedly into their skulls until they achieve enlightenment."
--Peter Gutmann


--
Home Sweet Home

take a look at it (none / 1) (#5)
by dioporcazzo on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 11:37:15 AM EST

i see features in this project that are totally different from freenet or other JAVA-BASED monsters (java! blah)

[ Parent ]
Response (3.00 / 3) (#19)
by some nerd on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:29:53 PM EST

Oh really? Like the way it relies heavilly on broadcast for route discovery, introducing scaling issues and simplifying harvesting? Or the way it differentiates into various kinds of nodes and then does extensive path folding for better efficency, making it considerably more susceptible to various routing and anonymity breach attacks? Or the way "hostname" resolution is vulnerable to cache poisioning just like DNS? Or perhaps the way that nodes actually synchronise time with each other, making timing attacks much easier and probably introducing problems beyond a certain hop time? The docs aren't clear but it sounds like it uses a DHT, there are anonymity problems there too. It even uses a static port range! There are reasons why freenet does not do these things.

Now, I'm no expert and I've only skimmed the docs, which appear to have been written on some good acid by people who really like William Gibson, but there appear to be numerous problems here given the project's lofty goals. OK, so you seem to get connection orientated routed-through indirection combined with a psuedonym layer and a design which probably gives quite good performance. That's fine as far as it goes, but it's not anonymous, censorship or attack resistant for anything more than western users to chat and conduct traditional p2p copyright infringement with a somewhat lower risk of being caught. If that's what the project aims for then fine, it might be good for that (until it's made illegal and easilly ISP-level filtered overnight ;), but the problem I have with it is that the docs make out it's some revolutionary next generation super-anonymous Internet. It would not be much use to people like Chinese dissidents facing torture and execution if discovered for example, which is the level of anonymity / security Freenet is ultimately aiming for.

The "fractal" routing table representation does sound clever, but there's no maths in the docs to describe it. If it's as clever as it sounds, I wouldn't understand them anyway :) Given the above stuff I am a bit skeptical about it though.

Finally, since you bought up the always popular OMG FREENET IS IN JAVA SO IT SUCKS point I should point out that 0.7 ultimately aims to run under Kaffe, which means it should be compilable to native code with GCJ. Although Java really is very close to native code speed *or faster* (because of hotspot dynamic recompiling) these days anyway, the only real cost is it uses rather more memory. Also freenet 0.5x can and does already use native code for expensive stuff like libGMP, BigInt and FEC decoding.

--
Home Sweet Home

[ Parent ]

Although (none / 0) (#24)
by some nerd on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 05:44:53 PM EST

Oops, as I said in this editorial comment if you read the FAQ it's actually a transport layer intended for direct use on WiFi etc and doesn't route over the Internet. This wasn't pointed out in the submission. This defuses some of the above criticisms somewhat because you can make trusted darknets where you don't have to worry about them so much, which is pretty much the direction Freenet is headed in for 0.7.

--
Home Sweet Home

[ Parent ]
+3 just for the quote (nt) (none / 1) (#37)
by m a r c on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 07:47:36 AM EST


I got a dog and named him "Stay". Now, I go "Come here, Stay!". After a while, the dog went insane and wouldn't move at all.
[ Parent ]
Jealousy? this is really *GREAT*! :) (1.66 / 3) (#6)
by dioporcazzo on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 11:45:19 AM EST

I think people must try things, read documentation and experiment before making such comments. There is people that write CODE for months, enjoining it , only for FUN and for the hacker community; and maybe something interesting can come out from all this coding... Don't you ever think that those people have considered freenet (*) and other stuff before writing new code *from scratch* ? Also, i don't think freenet works with the linux kernel, as a linux module *:) for what i see, this is a totally new thing. Have you tried netsukuku before writing comments? bah, nevermind. ;) (*) freenet. that ugly monster. coded in JAVA! what a shame. :(

well uhh... (3.00 / 2) (#71)
by Linux or FreeBSD on Sat Oct 08, 2005 at 01:14:24 AM EST

how about you let me know when something interesting does come out of all this coding?

ps: being a linux module doesn't mean anything. i could write a linux module to add two numbers; that wouldn't make it a "totally new thing."

pps: i'll take the useful project written in java rather than a useless one that "works with the linux kernel." thanks.

[ Parent ]
Java is solid and portable (none / 1) (#87)
by l3nz on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 04:20:31 AM EST

Not sure the same thing can be said for kernel modules.

Popk ToDo lists - yet another web-based ToDo list manager. 100% AJAX free :-)
[ Parent ]

Java is (none / 0) (#89)
by eraserewind on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 05:19:44 AM EST

Portable to the same version of the JVM (give or take) on whatever OS Sun has deigned to port it to.

[ Parent ]
Usually portable (none / 0) (#123)
by l3nz on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 04:05:11 PM EST

Muche more portable than most everything. Not even C is so portable between different versions of the compiler, different vendors, etc. Java has an excellent portability.

Popk ToDo lists - yet another web-based ToDo list manager. 100% AJAX free :-)
[ Parent ]

Okay... (3.00 / 5) (#8)
by mcc on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 01:23:03 PM EST

Why?

Because (none / 0) (#116)
by bml on Mon Oct 10, 2005 at 10:42:52 AM EST

ISPS = TEH EVIL !!!

(not that I exactly disagree with that statement, though)

The Internet is vast, and contains many people. This is the way of things. -- Russell Dovey
[ Parent ]

s/Netsukuku/Pikachu (2.78 / 14) (#11)
by Wenceslaus of Bohemia on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 03:01:20 PM EST



Millitary need and centralization (3.00 / 3) (#16)
by hackwrench on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:09:06 PM EST

From what I've understood, ARPAnet wasn't centralized. In fact, the original design was supposed to prevent the loss of connectivity an nuclear attack on one part of the system would cause in a centralized system. The centralization came after the network was out of the military's hand.

Move to vote (1.08 / 12) (#17)
by t1ber on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 04:15:30 PM EST

I clicked move-to-vote because:
1)  The article is shit.
2)  The spelling is shit.
3)  The grammer is shit.
4)  The author understands nothing about the internet.
5)  The author makes sweeping generalizations that are not reality-based.

When it's this bad, put it with the rest of the shit in the shitcan.

0: Hide (1.28 / 7) (#27)
by mr strange on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 06:29:16 PM EST

I zeroed this comment because:
  1. It's an editorial comment, misposted as topical.
  2. There is no 2.
When it's this bad, put it with the rest of the shit in the shitcan.

intrigued by your idea that fascism is feminine - livus
[ Parent ]
right (3.00 / 6) (#29)
by C Montgomery Burns on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 06:48:11 PM EST

This:
The spelling is shit.

Followed by this:
The grammer is shit.

HA!

--
ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD
Intelligent design
[ Parent ]

questions (3.00 / 4) (#22)
by m a r c on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 05:30:18 PM EST

I have a few questions regarding this:

how does this incorporate metrics into the routing decision. From the linked document it seems to assume the cost to get between nodes is equal.

From a brief look at the linked article it seems the basis of routing is recursive discovery through and abstraction knowns as groups. The state that you save on your hosts would have the side effect that proportionally increases the amount of network traffic by the same degree. There is a very good reason you do not allow millions of nodes to do a broadcast discovery. Even if this is scoped within a group this will be very large when all the border nodes do broadcast discovery into it

A question on usage: is this an attempt to replace the existing communication network or is it an overlay mechanism aiming to provide privacy? I don't believe the architects of the internet ever considered it a design goal to include privacy (and security for that matter but ipv6 attempts to architect this from the outset)

I did actually really enjoy reading a bit of the linked article though it does seem to make on that it is getting to something rather than actually getting there with the details. I personally could see the development of several overlay networks on top of the internet - ones that gaurentee anonimity, another that could gaurentee identity. Having a messy chaotic backup to the internet might not be a bad idea either, but you have to realise that a lot of time sensitive stuff is going on these days which this netsuku may not exactly be able to deliver
I got a dog and named him "Stay". Now, I go "Come here, Stay!". After a while, the dog went insane and wouldn't move at all.

Well... (3.00 / 2) (#25)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 05:51:25 PM EST

If it were me.

I'd use VPN tunnels to connect the routers. Dole out 10net IP addresses (and subnets) and use BGP while it was small.

Solid routing technology.

As for anonymity, everyone gets it wrong. Make sure that you only know your immediate neighbors... we have VPN IP addresses, so everyone is addressable, even if that can't be mapped back to internet IPs.

Make sure each hop crosses an international border, ideally one that is antagonistic (US<->France is better than US<->Canada).

Turn it into a highly regular mesh, each router has an ideal number of router partners, never goes above it. Fill in the gaps later.

Allow a reasonable number of leaf nodes per router.

What do you get with all of this? Anonymity as it has been understood for centuries, you get to pick people you trust, and they don't know everything you do. Nor you, of them. Everyone gets static IP addresses, you can set up all your own top level domains. Have websites. Email. Everything the internet has.

Or, you can keep picking half-assed "chaotic" crap, and trade files.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]

uhm... (none / 0) (#35)
by AlpT on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 01:43:15 AM EST

The "anonymity" here consider in the fact that:
1) You don't have to use ISPs.
2) The IP you choose is random.

Then if you want, you can use VPN tunnels, SSL/SSH connections and whatever you like.

Here, you have a contract with your ISP.

[ Parent ]
Dumb. (none / 0) (#46)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 12:43:59 PM EST

The only way for most to hope to connect to such a network, would be to use an internet connection. Unless you want to lay transoceanic fiber. Pointing out that layer 1 connectivity is unimportant is preaching to the choir, you know.

And random IPs? That makes alot of fucking sense. So, if I do connect to your network, I have to use a dynamic IP address? Alot of the coolest stuff makes a static the requirement. You can forget about DNS or human readable URLs.

Dumb.

Unless I suppose, you like trying to go to a website who's hostname can only be remembered by autistic savants.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]

HE IS MY FRIEND STOP TROLLING HIM (2.00 / 3) (#49)
by Lemon Juice on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 01:34:17 PM EST

NETSUKUKU IS MY FRIEND!

[ Parent ]
I assumed (none / 0) (#50)
by some nerd on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 01:39:57 PM EST

That the IP was randomly selected once then stayed the same, given that the topology is quite structured and connection orientated. This would have to be enforced using some kind of public key node identity, or spoofing/takeover attacks would be easy. (Even without attacks, if it's supposed to scale as big as they claim it can collisions would become a big problem sooner than might be imagined due to the birthday paradox. Well, probably not if they used IPv6 addressing but that's kind of sweeping the problem under the carpet.)

Freenet 0.5 works kind of like this, except that it doesn't really care about IPs so you could theoretically run a million nodes behind a NAT if you wanted to and it's OK for your IP to be dynamic, although a dynDNS hostname does help. Each node generates a PK node identity once on first startup, and this is what matters for routing purposes. IP changes are handled in the absence of dynDNS by the insertion of a special key (into freenet's distributed datastore) containing the new IP.

--
Home Sweet Home

[ Parent ]

How I would do it. (none / 1) (#51)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 02:03:55 PM EST

Make it very structured. We need a regular geometry, not adhoc, and there are ways of accomplishing that without centralized authority... crystals have regular geometry without taking orders from Central Atom Administration.

Lots of pros with this approach. We can guarantee that the bulk of routers in the central areas have lots of multiple redundant connections, and we can know "who" they are without actually asking.

The simplest geometry would be that of square tiling, where you have 4 neighbors in each dimension. This implies its own addressing scheme. 10.x.y.* comes to mind. With more than 2 dimensions, there are more efficient methods. I'd still use BGP at first, but a sizable network layed out like this... could be interesting. Just merely having a destination IP address gives you clues about the best way to route it where it's going (metrics notwithstanding).

And the best part is, the thing would scale. Millions of users even. And yet we could have all the cool stuff that we have on the internet proper, without all the gestapo baggage. I don't want to trade files, I want to run a website, and have a blah@mydomain.ourownTLD email address that anyone can send to, while both of us remain anonymous.

And I certainly feel better with an anonymity model I can understand without a a math Phd. No one takes it seriously though, even though the method has been used for hundreds of years successfully.

My conclusion: This guy will piss around with a network of 20 people, not nearly big enough for it to survive any serious compromise, all while if he and the 1000 other people pissing around on their own little networks got together, they could make something. That is, if they ever could agree to use existing tech.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]

Structure / topology (none / 0) (#54)
by some nerd on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 03:39:08 PM EST

  Make it very structured.

Well, there certainly need to be emergent routing specialisms for it to scale yes. Unfortunately experiences to date indicate that this sort of evolutionary behaviour is hard to get working optimally on a real world network with heavy churn etc where you have to preserve anonymity and defend against hostile nodes. From what little I know of it, IP routing stuff is cool and very efficient, but achieves this in part by mostly trusting the peer set beyond some basic election mechanisms.

I wouldn't advise structure as in differentiation into different node types that behave and are treated differently, like Netsukuku appears to do. This can improve efficiency (e.g. Gnutella 'supernodes'), but is a security problem because it invaribly makes routing takeover and DoS / censorship / harvesting attacks more practical. As I said in an editorial comment they can perhaps get away with such things in an essentially closed and trusted network, but they would be a bad idea on the Internet.

Your basic topology concept makes me think you might be interested by the not massively dissimilar Freenet 0.7 globally scalable darknet model (warning, PDF.) I don't claim to understand the complex maths behind the formal thesis 'proof' of it that Oskar has done, but the basic idea is that people's social peers naturally conform to the Small World network topology, then you can do some funky edge switching stuff to join all these small-worlds together quite efficiently yet anonymously. Since they are your peers who you explicitly invited you can pretty much trust your immediate hops, meaning a lot of attacks become impractical, it's very expensive to harvest because it's like a terrorist cell network where each compromise does localised damage, and the maths indicates that it could theoretically route and scale very well for an anonymous network. Certainly it has to perform better than freenet 0.5 :)

Actually it will be more complicated than this in practice, because after furious debate on the mailing lists the original idea for a separate opennet and scalable darknet has been replaced by a strange hybrid of the two, on the basis that the network won't grow initially in the west where not many people really need it if you have to be explicitly invited by another freenet user. People like Chinese dissidents who have to break the law to run it at all will make darknets from the start. (They shouldn't be using experimental alpha/beta software at all of course, but some of them already do use freenet 0.5.)

--
Home Sweet Home

[ Parent ]

Freenet is a joke. (none / 1) (#56)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 05:08:03 PM EST

Anything that doesn't push IPv4/IPv6 packets around is retarded.

Reminds me of a mind 80s BBS, you can trade files, and maybe there is some hacked messaging system, but that's it. Freenet is another example of a clever crypto scheme gone berserk.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]

I disagree. (none / 0) (#57)
by some nerd on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 06:04:14 PM EST

    Anything that doesn't push IPv4/IPv6 packets around is retarded.

Umm ... it does? Currently it's implemented over TCP/IP, 0.7 will use UDP/IP for various reasons (at least to begin with, transport plugins are planned later.)

    you can trade files, and maybe there is some hacked messaging system, but that's it.

Reading between the lines, you appear to be complaining about the distributed-datastore-only model of 0.5 and how it stops dynamic stuff like true search engines. Well, you're right. This is a valid criticism and it's true that things like Frost are currently a massive hack as a consequence (which frankly I am suprised works at all, let alone as well as it does). However, this issue amongst others is being addressed by the 0.7 rewrite. Anonymous streams will be routed to allow for such things, low latency publish/subscribe streams fast enough to allow IRC or equivalent over freenet, maybe even anonymous development of freenet itself via a port of a distributed RCS - there is already a port of GNU Arch for 0.5.

All this stuff will take time to finish developing of course (less if they get more help ..), but don't think the core devs aren't aware that the current freenet has major usability / functionality / performance issues and aren't working to fix them. For example, the client access protocol (FCP) is being completely overhauled so the node does much more of the work and it's considerably simpler to write clients.

As evidence, some recent quotes from Matthew Toseland, lead (paid) developer that I just pulled off the current gmane mailing list archives.

  • Acknowledges current FCP FEC implementation is problematic :
    "it is already agreed that the fred 0.5 FEC API is a monster" ... "otherwise you end up with the universally hated Freenet 0.5 FCP FEC API"

  • Confirms that the lack of interactive services is undesirable and is being addressed by 0.7 :
    > Note that the popularity of the WWW on the normal web is in no smll part due
    > to the ability to do server- and or client-side scripting, which is simply
    > not available in Freenet.
     
    With 0.7 there will be ways to do most things you can do on the Real Web.


  • Explicitly says 0.7 intends to support real searching, via routing to a service on a node :
    "simply having a central spider, which then extracts metadata (and contents) and sticks them in a database, a la google. Then either it provides a service through a tunnel" (...)

He acknowledged current freenet data rates are lower than they need to be for widespread acceptance recently too, and stated that 0.7 should be considerably faster, but I can't find that post right now.

Finally a recent-ish round up (last month so a bit outdated now) of current development directions on the 0.7 alpha here, plus a brief summary on the homepage.

--
Home Sweet Home

[ Parent ]

You don't get it. (none / 0) (#60)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 07:05:23 PM EST

Using IP as a transport layer means nothing in this case. Sorry you're so dense.

If I can't send my favorite IP protocols "across" this network, what's the point? Freenet is not, and never will be, an IP network, even if it exists on top of one.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]

Oh noes I have been flamed on the internet (none / 0) (#62)
by some nerd on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 08:45:35 PM EST

No need to be so hostile. For what it's worth, i2p has a TCP / UDP "tunnel" interface to the underlying transport which indirectly does this. Theoretically such an abstraction could also be tacked onto a working freenet; this isn't currently planned, but the fact that existing IRC clients are tenuously planned to be routed via 0.7's streams indicates it's possible. Provided applications can work anonymously, exactly how it happens doesn't matter to most end users.

Routing IP 'directly' in some sort of mixnet fashion is viable for some applications, Netsukuku seems to be a weird example. Padding / bundling and onion routing would presumably be needed so there's still a fair bit of overhead, and you would need to trust your first hops. This sort of scheme doesn't really lend itself to things like distributed publishing though, which for me is an interesting aspect of freenet-type systems.

--
Home Sweet Home

[ Parent ]

How random is IPv4 vs IPv6? (none / 0) (#61)
by ksandstr on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 07:29:54 PM EST

Or do you mean one of those weird base-10 internet protocols?

[ Parent ]
replies (none / 1) (#34)
by AlpT on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 01:37:04 AM EST

Actually the radar does the metric. It isn't explicitly written in the document but in the section "5.2 Npv7_HT Hook & Unhook" it says: " The step number one is to launch the first radar to see what its rnodes are. If there are no rnodes, it creates a new gnode and the hooking ends here. Then it asks to nearest rnode the list of all the available free nodes..."

[ Parent ]
you had me at "exploits the chaos" [nt] (2.57 / 7) (#31)
by Fuzzwah on Thu Oct 06, 2005 at 11:08:57 PM EST

.

--
The best a human can do is to pick a delusion that helps him get through the day. - God's Debris

IAWTP (3.00 / 2) (#45)
by BottleRocket on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 12:06:14 PM EST

+1 Encourages new world order.

$ . . . . . $ . . . . . $ . . . . . $
. ₩ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . *
$ . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $
Yes I do download [child pornography], but I don't keep it any longer than I need to, so it can yield insight as to how to find more. --MDC
$ . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $
. . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . * . . . . . *
. ₩ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$ . . . . . $ . . . . . $ . . . . . $
$B R Σ III$

[ Parent ]

Teh fractals are teh shit dood! (2.28 / 14) (#39)
by Sesquipundalian on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 09:39:33 AM EST

Man fractals are soooo awesome! There was this Canadian fractal once and it was gettin with the hornies and this American was dissing it like "you are teh suck Canadian fractal", and this fractal compressed the Americans head down to a singularity, and then killed the American's whole family! Then is corrupted the American God into nonsequiter, and said "no YOU are teh AmericanIDsuck!"!

Don't EVER diss the CanadianRoxorsFractalAWESOME!!


Did you know that gullible is not actually an english word?
+1FP (2.00 / 3) (#42)
by idiot boy on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 10:54:38 AM EST

Best laugh I've had in ages and better English than most of the gimps around here.

--
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself
Excellent. (2.90 / 11) (#43)
by ambrosen on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 11:21:12 AM EST

The current sudoku site I use is completely overrun at the moment, so another distributed source of my favourite crackpuzzles would be excellent.

Also, it's spelt s-u-d-o-k-u, but don't worry, lots of native English speakers have trouble with it too.

--
Procrastination does not make you cool. Being cool makes you procrastinate. DesiredUsername.

+1 FP (none / 1) (#44)
by some nerd on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 11:45:54 AM EST

Interesting and novel network concept (more so than I initially realised in the slightly flamey posts lower down), submitter listened to edit queue suggestions.

--
Home Sweet Home

GNU+Linux (none / 1) (#48)
by Lemon Juice on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 01:27:15 PM EST

not GNU divides Linux.

Certainly not GNU^Linux .. (none / 0) (#131)
by Highlander on Tue Nov 22, 2005 at 04:17:29 PM EST

Certainly not GNU^Linux, because Stallman couldn't even agree with himself on what this meant..

Moderation in moderation is a good thing.
[ Parent ]
WTF? (2.28 / 7) (#52)
by rhiannon on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 02:29:36 PM EST

This has to be one of the more elaborate jokes on the internet.

-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
The docs are a bit timecube-ish, true (3.00 / 2) (#55)
by some nerd on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 04:29:29 PM EST

However the network appears to be real and genuinely interesting (though it has some flaws.)

--
Home Sweet Home

[ Parent ]
+1 FP for this from the FAQ (2.75 / 12) (#59)
by SaintPort on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 06:17:53 PM EST

Q: Does it really works?
A: ^_^

--
Search the Scriptures
Start with some cheap grace...Got Life?

I thought rusty (none / 1) (#63)
by AlwaysAnonyminated on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 10:08:21 PM EST

had anonymized them all. I suppose I was quite wrong.
---------------------------------------------
Posted from my Droid 2.
you're a faggot. (summary @ bottom of comment) (2.45 / 22) (#64)
by Linux or FreeBSD on Fri Oct 07, 2005 at 11:10:44 PM EST

wtf i went to the store the other day and they charged me money for food!! omg food was never supposed to cost money it should be free :( we don't need farmers or food companies let's grow our own food!
The well-deserving Internet Service Providers give the connectivity to all of the poor humans, who are in the lowest rank of this hierarchic pyramid, warranting, in this way, the global shared ownership of Internet and its free access, obviously, in accordance with the rightful and wise principle of equality. They ask, in exchange, a "small" money fee to obtain the right to join this network.
you are a fucking moron. isps didn't get connectivity because they deserved it. they got it because they paid for it. bandwidth doesn't grow on trees. even if it did, you'd still be charged for it. just like you have to pay for apples and oranges. routers and cables cost money; they're actual physical things that actual people have to make. the internet isn't just "information." people who actually know what they're doing are also required to operate a network, and they cost money too. if you're not willing to pay for experts, then you'll be stuck with morons trying to do things they don't understand (cough cough). what kind of service level agreement can you provide? who is going to fix the network when it breaks? if two people want the same hostname, who decides which one gets it? if you don't like not having control, buy an isp. if you don't have enough money, i guess you're just going to have to boycott the internet and remain anonymous and in control on this network of you and two of your friends.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and Internet access.
what will happen if one of them or an ISP decides to no more supply the service? The answer is simple: entire nations will be immediately cut out of the Internet.
and if everyone around me decides to stop running netsucku? oh shit i'll be immediately cut out of the faggotnet. oh nose. the thing is, if a country suddenly had all its isps go out of business, new ones would just as quickly start up because there's money to be made. there's no incentive for anyone to connect you to this netsuku shit. more importantly, in no case is there any kind of obligation.

omg a meta-algorithm does it run on a meta-computer?
QSPN is a meta-algorithm in the sense that it doesn't follow any predefined mathematical instructions but exploits the chance and the chaos, which both don't need any computation
that's not what "meta-algorithm" means. the way you use extremely vague terms in some places and go into too much detail in others seems to indicate that you don't have a fucking clue.

hey i just swam across the atlantic and laid fiber as i went! want to use it?
The best medium to make the nodes linked each other is, obviously, the wifi, but any kind of links, which connects two nodes can be used for the same purpose.
yeah i bet wifi is going to work across an ocean. you're going to need pretty long cables, satellites, or something else that costs a lot of money to set up and maintain to communicate with other continents. anyone who is willing to pay for that isn't going to let you use it for free. so how do you plan to communicate over long distances without depending on, uhh, the "multinationals?"

new p2p meta-algorithm obsoletes internet!!
You should really read the documentation then take a look at the FAQs.
it's your job to convince people that this is useful. here's a hint: buzzwords and obviously misunderstanding the internet don't help. babbling about how the internet should be free and how isps are evil because they charge money helps even less. i've seen like a million of these things submitted as k5 articles. you can't expect people to "read the code" and help if you can't even communicate why this is at all better than the many already mature alternatives.

i think this whole thing might be a troll, but it's kind of elaborate for that.

in short, nobody is going to use your shit because it
  • generally sucks
  • isn't useful or new
  • is poorly presented
and the internet
  • is better
  • is already here


Language on K5 (3.00 / 2) (#107)
by Waigl on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 06:58:21 PM EST

Why is it that recently a lot of users on K5 are showing the manners of a feces throwing chimpanzee in discussion? I rated the above post (3), because it does include a few arguments in between all the mud-throwing, but really, I'm no big supporter of political correctness, but this is just ridiculous.

I do agree with the parent post in that the project should explain their routing algorithm and why they think it'll achieve the goals it's supposed to achieve a lot better. I do not agree to his claim that the idea is stupid or can never succeed.



[ Parent ]
WAKE UP, NEO! Look after your nose, you jealous! (1.40 / 5) (#74)
by dioporcazzo on Sat Oct 08, 2005 at 06:09:26 AM EST

People here really can't look a step after his noise. Everyone is talking about the internet, the vpn, ssh, tunnels, ISP's and other shit like that.

Look after your nose, geek

They're talking of a new kind of networking, it can be a local LAN, or a free wireless network, and this is totally indipendent from any ISP

go out, get a life, buy some wireless access point, and try netsukuku by yourself. it works! and, yes, there's a lot of work do to for it.

Better to work on the code rather than give voices to jealousy. :) gotcha? ;)

Better... (3.00 / 2) (#79)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Sat Oct 08, 2005 at 02:01:27 PM EST

To use off the shelf software with well-understood protocols.


--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
New? (none / 0) (#90)
by Confusion on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 06:02:48 AM EST

They're talking of a new kind of networking, No, they are not. The fact that this is your first encounter with the material presented does not mean it is new to the rest of us.
--
Any resemblance between the above and reality is purely coincidental.
[ Parent ]
Hey moron (1.44 / 9) (#78)
by BJH on Sat Oct 08, 2005 at 12:00:30 PM EST

Q: What did you choose that name?
A: Networked Electronic Technician Skilled in Ultimate Killing, Utility and Kamikaze Uplinking.
   But there is also another story: we were learning Japanese katakana with slimeforest, a nice game for GNU/Linux.
   Unfortunately when we encountered the "Network" word, written in Japanese, we didn't know all the relative symbols, so the only katakana we were able to read were: Ne tsu ku ku.
   By the way, you can always think of any deceitful and hidden meanings.

The imported word in Japanese for "network" doesn't have two "ku" characters in it - that first one is a "wa".

So your (entirely useless) protocol should be called "Netsuwaku".
--
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

japanese shit (none / 0) (#92)
by dioporcazzo on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 11:15:19 AM EST

AND WHAT THE FUCK! :)

[ Parent ]
Hey, I have an idea! (none / 0) (#111)
by DavidTC on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 11:03:28 PM EST

Let's make a network for dissidents and give it a Japanese name.

I'm sure all the Chinese dissidents will be fawning over themselves to use that.

-David T. C.
Yes, my email address is real.
[ Parent ]

+1FP! because the comments are funny. [nt] (1.33 / 3) (#80)
by Smiley K on Sat Oct 08, 2005 at 04:08:52 PM EST


-- Someone set up us the bomb.
Good grief (2.00 / 5) (#82)
by trhurler on Sat Oct 08, 2005 at 10:29:18 PM EST

All those who voted for this: please, please PLEASE move to Oregon and get one of those assisted suicides. For the good of us all, you know.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

I voted it up... (none / 1) (#98)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 03:46:25 PM EST

So I'd have more time to poke holes in his stupid idea. That you are tearing him to shreds makes it that much better.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
Oh, and for anyone who doubts (2.75 / 8) (#83)
by trhurler on Sat Oct 08, 2005 at 10:34:20 PM EST

that he should kill himself for having voted for this shit:

1) All networks exist in countries, and therefore are controlled by governments. Belief that if you pay for it, they can't interfere is belief in fairy tales. Belief that this can be funded without governments getting involved is nuts, for that matter.

2) This guy's code has no provision for privacy, a routing algorithm that won't scale(he thinks it will, because he doesn't understand the problem,) a mechanism utterly devoid of any fault tolerance or resistance to attack, half a crypto suite(more than half of which consists of obsolete algorithms,) and so on. In short, it ain't gonna work. There are people who have designed strong anonymous networks. It is a lot harder than this.

3) Back in the day when we gave a shit what got posted, guys like this BOUGHT AN AD.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

Funnier than the article (none / 0) (#124)
by Harvey Anderson on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:06:09 PM EST

is watching you totally miss the point in your mad dash to once again pretend you're on the A-Team.

[ Parent ]
Quite frankly (2.40 / 5) (#84)
by curtains99 on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 12:08:51 AM EST

"Netsukuku" the word just sounds 1000 times gayer than "Internet."

I mean honestly, folks. Gayness.

Go to i2p (none / 0) (#85)
by ultimai on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 03:13:39 AM EST

http://www.i2p.net/

A couple of questions (2.66 / 3) (#86)
by l3nz on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 04:14:49 AM EST

I have read the given docs, but I really don't get it.
Either you run your network over the public internet (and this way you cannot do without your ISP) or you run a totally separate, parallel network, running on your own cables. In this second case, why not using good, old, simple, ubiquous, time tested IPv4?

Popk ToDo lists - yet another web-based ToDo list manager. 100% AJAX free :-)

Decentralisation (none / 0) (#106)
by Waigl on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 06:18:14 PM EST

Duh, because you need a centralised organazation to manage an IPv4 address space, which is exactly what this project is trying to avoid! I the proposed decentralised network, you will only need links to a couple of friends who already are connected to be connected yourself.
In case you didn't realize: This wouldn't work with your current internet connection.

[ Parent ]
Actually, you don't need central management. (none / 0) (#118)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Mon Oct 10, 2005 at 03:01:11 PM EST

You're just not very clever if you can't figure out a way.

Assume for a moment, that we get some sort of grassroots network going. I pick an arbitrary subnet as my own, this is the "starting" point. In my own scheme, the 2nd and 3rd octets are X,Y coordinates. Since you connect to me, you'd have to be one of the 4 neighbor subnets (Though which doesn't matter so much). You pick one. Someone connects through you. Their subnet has to be a neighbor to yours. Only 3 are possible (the 4th is me). As long as participants understand the rules for selecting subnets, no one even needs to be consulted. Let your routing protocol handle people who intentionally claim subnets not their own.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]

AHahhHahahaha (2.16 / 6) (#88)
by kalokagathos on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 04:56:29 AM EST

I am reading for the funny and it is a fractally-distributed quantum seven dimensional hahafunny protocol substituted for the normal linear corporate military chuckling. And I am laughing using DLANPsuku the distributed laugh arrangement network protocol suku, which exploits the chaos to provide me with quantum fractal pr0n for free using chaos theory and genetic algorithms powered by cold fusion. Real internet of reality is designed for corporations and military to oppress minorities! i stick it to the man by compressing him to the infinite, using fractals, and tear down corporate globalization with free C++ compiler on my 486 computer in moms basement and it works using wireless nodes which i created by casting a 'pull an entire global wireless network out of my ass' spell. i have no money and i dont want to get a job so i make FREE INTERNET FOR Pr0n

Read the documentation here this is not the final solution that is globally distributed wireless gas chamber invulnerable to corporate exploitation

fractal compression and all that (none / 0) (#91)
by jcarnelian on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 09:38:43 AM EST

Using fractals for routing does make sense; it allows you to create complex tree or graph structures with simple rules. The term "quantum" is frequently used by network folks; it's a bad choice because it's rather different from its meaning in physics. Anarchical naming is also a useful concept, given that the current DNS system also has major problems (just look at the fact that Congress has to get involved in the creation of new TLDs). Filtering and content controls are a major problem on the Internet, and overlay networks are the way to address them. I have no idea whether this announcement is a hoax or whether the software (there is about 153k of C code) works. But there is no cause to ridicule these guys for their terminology.

[ Parent ]
So a hostile government need... (none / 0) (#97)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 03:44:41 PM EST

Only sever a tree structure at a single point, to split the network and really fuck things up?

Tree structures are used for efficiency in commercial networks because they're cheap for the bandwidth and universal connectivity that they provide. They're also the worst possible geometry for the network that he wants. He's actually much less clever than he believes.

If I were building this network, I'd want a non-fractal geometry. Each router connected to 4 or 6, or even 12 other routers in a square tiling (hex tiling just doesn't work past 2d, triangular tiling gets really weird real fast).

Non-fractal geometries would allow for even cooler routing... e.g.
2d square tiling
Your router: 10.12.67.1
Dst IP: 10.14.68.45 (leaf node of 10.14.68.1)

The second octet is the "X" coordinate, "Y" is the third. Assuming this portion of the network has been built, there are 2 interfaces/routes that can be ruled out immediately, "left" and "down". The remaing are equally valid if you disregard metrics, of which you could have whatever you found appropriate.

If this portion of the network hasn't been fully built yet, just let metrics take over to tell you that "up" doesn't exist yet, and let it use "right".


--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]

fractal != tree (none / 0) (#120)
by jcarnelian on Mon Oct 10, 2005 at 08:14:10 PM EST

Fractal doesn't mean it would have to be a tree structure. In any case, I wasn't saying that the story made any sense, I was just saying that the terminology wasn't as ridiculous as the GGP claimed.

[ Parent ]
Well, it's not my fault (none / 0) (#93)
by stuaart on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 12:07:59 PM EST

I voted up the spoof article, which was far better.

Linkwhore: [Hidden stories.] Baldrtainment: Corporate concubines and Baldrson: An Introspective


Monetary compensation for bandwidth? (none / 0) (#94)
by Waigl on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 01:25:16 PM EST

Hi,

Does your protocol include the possibility for monetary compensation for bandwidth?

I think this is a pretty good idea, and it could actually work (provided your routing algorithm lives up to its promises), but if no money is involved, I don't think it'll get very far, for a number of reasons:

- Installing antennas and cables costs money. I'm willing to help my neighbours for free for a bit, but I'm certainly not willing to use my savings for that, let alone take up a credit. You may get along for a while by using cheap wifi-equipment and/or just throwing cables from one window to another, but long-term, you'll have to find real solutions, put into place by professionals.

- Like it or not, you will still need the big carriers. People usually live in cities or villages, which often are quite far from each other. If there is no cable between two cities, the people in them will not be able to connect to each other, no matter how good your routing algorithm is. Putting these cables between cities into the ground costs insane amounts of money and effort. Nobody will be willing to just do taht in his spare time if there is no adequate reward in sight.

- As other posters already pointed out, bandwidth does not grow on trees. If traffic in your network is basically free (as in beer), it'll soon all be used up by the Gigasharers. There's only one solution to this: Have people pay for their bandwidth by the Megabyte (or Gigabyte or Petabyte or Kilobyte, which ever fits better) and have them pay enough that, by the time your lines are 20% saturated, you will have enough money to significantly increase the available bw. (20% because that may easily translate to 100% usage during critical hours of the day)

- Without money involved, you may have a reliability issue. Most people on such a network will probably not bother connecting to more than one or two peers. (If it works at that point, why bother?) If these two links go down (because someone stumbled over the cable or because of a hardware failure or whatever) and you really, really need your net-access, you have a bit of problem. Money can fix this to some extend: If you pay someone money for providing a reliable link, that guy will be much more interested in fixing a problem. He might also be able to afford better hardware. Hell, that "guy" might even be a larger company, why not? The idea is that you don't /depend/ on big companies, but you can still use their services if that's beneficial.

I could imagine monetary compensation like this:
Each link is basically a point-to-point link. When establishing this link, the owners of the two points make a contractual agreement that each one of them is to pay the other one up to a certain sum of money for every Megabyte or Gigabyte sent to him. The actual price is calculated dynamically, depending, for example, on whether a packet wil have to handed on to yet another point, which will itself ask for money for that. If I have to pay money for routing _your_ packet, then I'm afraid I'll have to ask you for a little more money than usual in the first place, or I'm operating at a loss. It could/should also depend on link usage.

If one provider of access to this net has a reputation for being particularly reliable, he may ask for a "reliability-fee". Asking for higher prices for raffic to compensate for the higher costs with keeping everything relieble would be stupid: This peer would simply never see any traffic at all because everyone is just using his cheap, unreliable competitors.



Re: Monetary compensation for bandwidth? (none / 0) (#95)
by Waigl on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 02:30:05 PM EST

Asking for money for traffic may also be a good incentive for people to look into getting more than just one or two links to their neighbours, in order to make use of the competition.

[ Parent ]
Yes. (none / 0) (#96)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 03:30:12 PM EST

Because financial transactions won't kill anonymity models dead to rights.

Haha.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]

Anonymous Money (none / 0) (#100)
by AjoMoh on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 03:54:19 PM EST

There is anonymous money. On IIP and I2P there is (or was) Yodel bank.

[ Parent ]
There is. (none / 0) (#102)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 04:02:54 PM EST

Except as soon as you use it, you've just scuttled your own anonymity model, to use theirs. Are you willing to do that? If so, maybe yours isn't so strong in the first place... meaning the network is a joke. If not, well, then you can't pay. But maybe others will, forcing you to use another model anyway.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
Is anonymity the primary goal? (none / 0) (#101)
by Waigl on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 04:01:11 PM EST

This assumes that anonymity is actually the primary goal of this project. I don't know if it is, but I think even without this it could be very useful.

[ Parent ]
Project motivations (none / 0) (#128)
by gnome on Fri Oct 14, 2005 at 02:08:11 AM EST

I am only speculating from what I have gathered about these people, mixed with my experiences amongs rastafarians and creative anarchists.

Anonymity is probably a large aim in the project, but not the ultimate goal.  The goal is to make it possible for people to create ad-hock networking over radio, mostyl, or out of arrangements with friends (cable strung out window, from earlier commentary) that can self-organize into a mesh as far as the community manages to reach.  There will be required some proliferation of nodes in a geographic area to make it happen.  So it will only evolve in small ponds, like local communities.  But it can grow over time and merge with other communities.  As local ponds learn of eachother, they can set up long-distance connects by their own motivation to help themselves and their neighbors, until the mesh spreads to cover the gaps and thin spots better.

This is a vision for a way around the heirarchical system.  And, by design, away from having to submit to some else's permission to connect.  I think the is probably explicitly non-capitalist in nature.  It is more of a communities-building, access-enabling nature.  It is a way to make a net that takes all comers.  Your willingness to route with your neighbors is traded for their willingness to route to you.  The idea is about being connected so that communication can happen and ideas can be exchanged without the shackles of the gatekeepers creating points of control.

The concept is at it's core altruistic in the belief that group altruism creates exponential returns for all participants.  Anonymity is there also to help people participate without impunity.

now if kazaaskukuster or whatever comes to rain on the parade then you can (and most would) probably stop routing such stuff if possible and the collective would adapt, because the collective wants would manifest themselves perfectly democratically.  The only point is if it works good, and it will naturally evolve (being open source, now, let's not forget!).  If you hate bandwith robbing stuff you will shun it, as your neigbors likely will too, and it will go away by the will of the local people, not the will of any one authority.  Maybe in City A they have lots of p2p stuff and all like it, and suffer some slowness.  But in City B the folks aren't into that and block it, so they become sort of dead to that traffic.  It works the way natural communities do anyway.

You must understand that the thinking begins and ends with altruism and equality of participation at every node.  Making a buck off your neighbor could happen, but that's not a friendly way to go about arbitrating those costs.  Take me for example.

I live with two roommates.  We just got cable net.  The neighgbors have a computer and a wifi router, and play xbox wifi with the folks in the apartment below them.  Now as soon as I get the funds for a wifi router, the neighbors are gonna throw some money towards our cable bill for hooking them up.  And we benefit because we can share stuff with them and play games with them w/o stringing a wire out the window.  There are other cool people in the complex, and we may choose to pool our resources this way.  We will manage our little "pocket" of wifi ourselves, and arbatrate with our neighbors as you do in every other aspect of life.

See?  This is all really cool and positive thinking
~let it grow~ g n o m e
[ Parent ]

LOL I meant *with impunity* (none / 0) (#129)
by gnome on Fri Oct 14, 2005 at 02:12:00 AM EST

I said that the Anonymity is there so people can participate without impunity.  I meant with impunity, doh!

peace

~let it grow~ g n o m e
[ Parent ]

You're only exchanging cash with neighbours. (none / 0) (#105)
by Russell Dovey on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 06:00:32 PM EST

The people you trade money with will already be known to you, because they're, like, right over THERE in that building there.

So the anonymity won't apply to your neighbours. But it will apply to everyone else.

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

That's a good anonymity model. (none / 0) (#122)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 03:43:03 PM EST

I mean, no matter what, I assume that I know some identifiable information of a few involved. But if it were me, I don't want those people down the road from me, I want them on another continent so the local police can't intimidate them into revealing the next hop.

Oh well.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]

License...LOL...GPL it seems... (none / 1) (#99)
by AjoMoh on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 03:51:46 PM EST

I read reading the documentation (http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/?p=Documentation) and at the end it says this:

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike License.

And I thought, who the fuck licenses software under the a CC license? I then went and checked out the FAQ for the license and nothing there. Then after playing around in the download section (boy I would have fucking hated having to get the sources to check the license / copyright). In the download section (http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/readme) I found that the software is released under the GPL-2.

The licensing information should be in the documentation AND FAQ section since many people wouldn't touch the software unless they knew for certain was FOSS.

Very interesting network, I'm going to have to do more research on it.

Holy brilliant hell, what a wonderful thing. (none / 1) (#103)
by Russell Dovey on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 05:18:49 PM EST

I love the future.

Two thoughts:

  • The wifi thing makes this perfect, especially if enough rich nodes can link to distant ones through satellites (a few long links make a mesh network rule more, as we all know);
  • I notice in the docs that you mention every node has to keep its clock synchronised with the others; that right there needs fixing if this is going to replace the Net, let alone serve humanity's expansion into space. (please correct me if I've misunderstood something, being a half-wit when it comes to programming)

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan

What the fuck? (none / 0) (#108)
by t1ber on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 07:42:09 PM EST

I voted up the parody article because it was funny and because it understood that this was entirely stupid.  It did everything just short of handing me a baseball bat and the author for 10 minutes.

How in Fucks Name did this half-assed poorly diguised advertisement shit get voted up?

And she said...
Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad
Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah
Hadji girl I can't understand what you're saying.

Parody Article (none / 0) (#113)
by galdosd on Mon Oct 10, 2005 at 01:49:05 AM EST

Say, I looked into that parody article and was unable to find it. Whatever happened to it? It appears to have disappeared ("Alternate Internets for the Elite").

Also, in light of http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/10/8/02552/6756 I think I am updating my opinion of this Netsukuku nonsense to include the possibility of just being a sham intended as a joke. But, who would expend so much effort on such a weird sham?

[ Parent ]

Compare usernames, not the same [nt] (none / 0) (#114)
by some nerd on Mon Oct 10, 2005 at 04:44:41 AM EST



--
Home Sweet Home

[ Parent ]
Parallel network? (none / 0) (#109)
by cdguru on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 10:02:01 PM EST

I get the part about not being at the mercy of multinational corporations sucking the lifeblood from people just trying to communicate. However, I am trying to understand how someone in Romaina is supposed to send their list of credit card numbers to someone in Russia without the cooperation of some multinational, or at least national-level corporation.

The two models I can see are dial-up connections and what the author mentions with wifi. The problem with wifi links is that it is going to take somewhere near the entire Internet-using population to have WiFi hardware and open it up for this purpose.

Dial-up puts things back at the level of the old UUCP days, which I am guessing the author doesn't have a clue about. But, I would guess that his response would be "Yuk, dial-up is slow" and that would be that.

lol what $ (none / 1) (#110)
by skyknight on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 10:04:00 PM EST



It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
Absolute nonsense (3.00 / 3) (#112)
by galdosd on Mon Oct 10, 2005 at 01:19:06 AM EST

Why the fuck was this article rated up at all? The entire thing is illogical crap a bunch of druggies came up with. Here's an honest, real excerpt from the documentation:

"The story of how the idea of Netsukuku was born is quite a long and  complicated story.  In the far 2003, a crew of crazy freaks started to think about Ipv7: a net  in which all the packets was sent in broadcasted, compressed with the zlib7,  an algorithm which could compress all the existent Internet into just  32 byte. In Ipv7 the nodes were devoid of an ip address."

What the hell does that even mean? How is that even a sensible statement within the context of reality?

All this is is a couple of guys who don't know shit about shit but think big and came up with (YET ANOTHER) crummy p2p network layer (Oh, and they named it after some pseudo-Japanese, so it must be terrific[1]). As if there weren't enough of those. And I'm only assuming that it even is that because I'm charitable enough to take their word that it functions.

Given their success at taking what is effectively version zero of freenet or some other similar project plus a bunch of political nonsense and computer science crackpottery[2] ("compressing infinite amounts of data into fractals", "quantum wave algorithms", and more nonsense) and promoting[3] it at this limited level, I suggest the folks behind this "project" quit it and start a high-powered PR firm.

[1]: By the way, that slimeforest thing is awful and a useless way to learn a character set. You'll learn how to read, sure, but you'll just forget that. If you want to become literate, learn to write. There are no shortcuts to learning foreign languages, especially animated game shortcuts, and especially in difficult foreign languages. Get off your computer and invest in a pencil.

[2]: Yes. You thought it was impossible, but you were wrong. You've seen of course the physics crank (free energy!), even occasionally the math crank (I can circumcise TEN squares in TWENTY circles and murder fermat in his sleep). But given the practical and applied nature of this field I thought I'd never see a computer science crank. Luckily, I read K5.

[3]: By the way, enough about the geniuses behind this project. Who was asleep at the switch and let this through? What's the deal with K5 users? Wake up. Their enthusiasm for ideas may be infective, but the ideas themselves are shallow and not useful.

Netsukukukuku rockokokokoks (none / 1) (#115)
by oki on Mon Oct 10, 2005 at 06:58:48 AM EST

my favorite line from the web site is this:
when you feel confortable and you are ready to dare type with root priviledges:
# netsukuku_d
then just wait... ^_-
Aparently you can tell that you are up on the netsukuku network when you see line after line of "U R pwned" in /var/log/messages :)

This sig intentionally not left blank
Sokal Affair (none / 0) (#117)
by mumble on Mon Oct 10, 2005 at 11:53:46 AM EST

IMHO, k5 has just been trolled. In fact, it reminds me of The Sokal Affair.

The bit I don't understand is why the hell they put so much effort into it... Not to mention apparent source code

If it is not infact a very elaborate hoax, these guys are doing some serious drugs. Tip: stop the drugs and you might just regain your sanity. Too much dope has been linked with causing permanent schizophrenia... So stop smoking now before it is too late!!

As for the rest of the kurobots, I can't believe this was voted up...

-----
stats for a better tomorrow
bitcoin: 1GsfkeggHSqbcVGS3GSJnwaCu6FYwF73fR
"They must know I'm here. The half and half jug is missing" - MDC.
"I've grown weary of googling the solutions to my many problems" - MDC.

Yea, it is a huge conspiration (none / 0) (#119)
by AlpT on Mon Oct 10, 2005 at 05:06:48 PM EST

The code is a great trojan horse, which formats your hd and installs in the bios WindowsBIOSkuku CE 2092

[ Parent ]
Ha (none / 1) (#121)
by Jed Smith on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 07:42:18 AM EST

Kuro5hin.org Digest from K5 - Thunderbird thinks this message is junk mail.
Thunderbird can smell this garbage a mile away.
_____
K5 is dead. Steve Ballmer made the most insightful comment on a story. -- jw32767
Lain is Watching! (none / 0) (#125)
by adavies42 on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 10:07:27 AM EST

Don't any of you clowns watch anime? At least half of this is a joke about Serial Experiment Lain. The "Wired", protocol v7, etc.

I many commentators are not being fair here (none / 1) (#126)
by agger on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 02:07:40 PM EST

and I'm going to try to explain why.

This is most definitely neither a spoof nor a hoax. After reading the home page at length, it turns out that Netsukuku is a new network addressing protocol, very easy to set up, which will allow a completely decentralized net structure.

My Italian is rusty, but as far as I can see, the originators are from a small, community-based computer lab and free Internet access and computer service (etc.) outfit in Catania, Sicily. They suggest creating this network through wifi nodes and are beginning to set up nodes in their home town.

The new network protocol is not compatible with the Internet, so if it needs to coexist with the Internet on a computer, it needs to be restricted to a "private" range of IP addresses. The network software is also in beta, so many things are not implemented or considered yet.

Now, for responding to several of the comments:

"Some nerd" says that people should not start making new network protocols "out of the blue" and there are many problems with

"Flooding, harvesting, black hole nodes, routing table takeover DoS / sniffing and node probing all appear to be quite feasible in this network. Node takedown can effectively censor content." As it happens, these things are probably to be considered later, in the course of the implementation.

Takedown of one node would only remove information from that node, since the network would automatically reconfigure itself, provided the node was not also a bottleneck.

Finally, "some nerd" chides the authors of Netsukuku for "reinventing the wheel, poorly".

The way I see it these people created a new, completely decentralized and inherently anonymous network protocol which is implemented and actually works, and they have started setting up wireless nodes in their home town to support it.

I think this is commendable, and I even think they may harvest valuable experience for the benefit of other projects - even if it doesn't catch up, for any number of reasons.

"Linux or FreeBSD" goes off a tangent, and I think I'd say to him, and to "galdosd", and to "kalokagathos":

On the FreeBSD lists, they always tell people not to build any bicycle sheds. You're building bicycle sheds here. AND you're doing something worse:

You assume that because the documentation is written by a non-English native speaker and in a style not very frequent in technical documentation, its author probably doesn't know anything about networks.

Now, as has been pointed out by jcarnelian among others, there is nothing wrong about the arguments or the architecture presented.

What I'd like to know would be more like the following:
  • How does it perform outside a test environment
  • How does it scale (it allows up to 2^128 computers on the net, but how does its *performance* scale)
  • How could various attack scenarios be addressed (but I think this would be no more vulnerable that IPv4).
Apart from that, I find the ideas both interesting and relevant: These guys are proposing to make a new, completely decentralized, self-reconfiguring anonymous network - and they're making it work and setting it up for free in their local community at the same time.

If this doesn't interest you, that's fine - but they hardly deserve to get a lot of heat over it, either.
--
http://www.faklen.dk/en
http://www.modspil.dk
Wow I beat Kuro5hin to the punch, so to speak! (none / 1) (#127)
by gnome on Fri Oct 14, 2005 at 01:20:53 AM EST

I had only just recently stumbled across this Netsukuku from a different vector.  Follow along, as it may illuminate something of where these people are coming from that is understandably easy to miss from this Kuro5hin article and their website.

I was looking into Dyne:Bolic, a LiveCD distribution of Linux.  

Perhaps you are familiar with the concept of a LiveCD of Linux.  It boots from CD, does hardware recognition, and boots to a ram-drive environment so you can test-drive a linux distribution without touching the hard-drive.

Some projects are taking this in interesting directions, such as for recovery cds and projects like Knoppix STD for your swiss-army-knife network and recovery console on a CD.  Other people are working on Disaster-Relief distributions so that your Red Cross folks can network up a bunch of donated PC's to give shelter folks some communications services to friends and family, and to Government and Disaster-relief support web sites in a quick and efficient manner.

Dyne:Bolic is related to Netsukuku through the FreakNet collective.  Dyne:Bolic has some interesting ideas.  Rather than be a test-drive CD, they are exploring the concept of "nesting" your home directory (say, to a USB stick).  So you can carry a USB stick and CD and have an OS and your media.  Also, they have the concept of docking, where the install is as simple as copying a folder to an existing HDD partition.  The CD, on booting, will find this "docked" install and load the CD image (compressed) from there, for fast boot and load times.  Very creative.

The notion is that Dyne:Bolic is a distribution for media activists.  Say you are "on the ground" where something is going down.  With this distro you can boot up and set up web-broadcasting streaming audio, video, as well as video editing and productions, audio prodution, special effects (for creating multimedia events), etc.  Limited hardware and low bandwidth are addressed with innovative and clever programs like Hasciicam that broadcasts an "ascii-art" version of your webcam.  Old timers will remember the days of ascii-art on the daisywheel printers.  It was cool, and didn't wear down your "period" petal.  They even have this workable on XBOX systems, with clustering support.  They are quite ambitious, and are pulling this off.  This is all in the hopes of empowering "guerilla news" operations and activists, and artists with totally free tools that will take advantage of whatever hardware is at hand.

Their ideas have merit outside of the media activist arena.  There are at least some serious and capable people involved in the FreakNet collective.  This is surely not a den of strung-out burnouts.  The new Dyne:Bolic II will be based on Linux From Scratch, hopes to implement ZeroInstall and can be "modified" and re-burned to a new, updated or customized LiveCD.  Good Stuff.

But on to Netsukuku

So you see I came to this being impressed by the work being done on Dyne:Bolic.  Now the guy behind Dyne:Bolic is a Rastafarian.  I don't claim to have the low-down on all the religious beliefs of Rastafarians.  But think what you will of their use of Cannabis and/or psychedelics, I can say from Rastas that I have met that some are very sincere and pious people.  Any congregation should be blessed with such kind and altruisticaly motivated people in it.  It is certainly not fair to de-value these folks even if you don't really understand them.  They are very well meaning and sincere.  It is their fire, their passion.

There is a deep strain of thought in culture in and around Rastafarianism that seeks to actively promote the advancement and development of people everywhere creatively and spiritually.  A good rasta is dedicated to spreading positive energies, raising people's creative and compassionate potentials, and so forth and so on.  This comes out in some very creative approaches to many of the things we see in life.

Whether "this turkey flies" or not, and whether or not one or more of the authors are into anime or drugs, there are clever ideas being explored in Netsukuku that are worth hashing out.

Here I will try to explain what I have been able to grasp of this.  A good english translation of the concepts would really help, granted....  So feel free to illuminate me without impunity if I have any of this wrong or am too far off base.  I seek the truth of this, not my brand on it.

The design takes into account the inherent chaos in a self-generating mesh network such as this example of a wi-fi (radio) mesh.  It expects that the map is never "complete" and always in flux, so is designed to compensate and re-configure as it goes.  It rolls with changes.  The use of fractal concepts is played out in the routing algorithms.  The meshes construct themselves as members of local cells called groups, and elect group-nodes to abstract the design up to a group-of-groups.  

It sort of works as a pyramid or tree that builds itself from the nodes back (up), scaling up a score as needed.  If they break, they can become autonomous nets that can later re-fuze.  But by the nature of meshes, there is likely to be a lot of overlap and so the breakage is not so common until you reach the fringes of coverage.

Now the addressing is assigned around this fractalized structure.  And the way the net maintains itself is built with wave-theory in mind.  As nodes connect, they send out "tracer packets" to announce themselves and hook up.  The packets are a sort of broadcast that is propogated along the net as a wave.  When it reaches terminal edges of the mesh "pond", it will echo back to "close" a route.  This sort of lets the nodes (which are all routers) keep track of which "vectors" have been fully explored (mapped) and which have not.  As the routes close, the mesh no longer needs to fetch info from the far side, as it is already available locally in a bordering node to report back.  .  In other words, your neighbor knows that end's status and can report back all the routes, and update the other side about you.  It cuts out un-needed propogation of the "waves".  Disconnects are also reported like a wave.

You have to admit that it is at least very clever, and has a lot of potential.  Sure there are important tests that need to be done, but at least a lot will be learned from the attempts made here.

The DNS is also important, and they have developed a name system that propogates and uses hashes that map back to your node address.  So there is a similar discovery process to propogate the names.  But, at least in an active network, there is a private key/public key system that serves to register and lock your "name" on a first-come, first-serve basis.  Issues I would wonder about are when two Netsukuku puddles finally touch and have to re-configure as one pond.  How is the name system able to arbitrate disputes?  Yet surely this is also all to be hashed out.  This is a development environment yet, to be sure.  But a development worth worth exploring, none the less.

My personal props and applause to the Netsukuku folks for what they are trying to accomplish.  They have high aims and are brave enough to try and realize them.  They have a lot of creative energy, as has been demonstrated.  Apparently they have the faith in themselves to push the technology forward in positive directions.  More power to them.  I would not be surprised to find that we all may one day learn something useful and enlightening, if not liberating, from these humble yet ambitious hackers' exploits.

Peace,

Gnome

A GNU Age is Dawning!  ;-)
~let it grow~ g n o m e

Thanks (none / 0) (#130)
by agger on Fri Oct 14, 2005 at 05:00:12 AM EST

You said that a lot better and less polemically than I managed to do!
--
http://www.faklen.dk/en
http://www.modspil.dk
[ Parent ]
Netsukuku the Anarchical Parallel Internet | 131 comments (93 topical, 38 editorial, 0 hidden)
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