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[P]
iBill not paying their customers going on 4 months

By RatOmeter in Internet
Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:49:33 AM EST
Tags: Internet (all tags)
Internet

iBill's purpose in business is to provide an easy-to-use, secure means of accepting online payments. Most web-fronted business are happy to let iBill skim a little off the top to avoid the hassle of handling payments themselves. Lately, they've been skimming it all.


The owner of one high-traffic site says "(IBill) has not been paying out for almost 4 months now." For a busy operation like his (not the forum board in that last link), 4 months with no cashflow has got to be nerve-wracking and maybe business-wrecking to boot.

Since iBill is apparently the world's largest internet payment service, how many other business are being strung along? If it turns out to be a house of cards that falls like another ENRON, there will doubtless be many little guys taken down with it.

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iBill not paying their customers going on 4 months | 76 comments (54 topical, 22 editorial, 0 hidden)
they owe me a couple of grand (3.00 / 4) (#1)
by circletimessquare on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 04:42:07 PM EST

i had to go with ccbill

i'm as pissed as you are, and have no idea what to do

it's got something to do with ibill being sold to some company called ibd... which was just delisted from amex

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&am p;newsId=20050124005888&newsLang=en

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&am p;newsId=20050210005796&newsLang=en

and the little guys, you and me, suffer for this bullshit which has nothing to do with us ;-(


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

they owe him a lot more (none / 1) (#2)
by RatOmeter on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 05:03:03 PM EST

Looks like it's been going on longer than that (the IBD acquisition). The Penthouse people (the previous major stockholder) have been having money troubles for quite a while... they dropped iBill pretty quickly. I suspect they got some idea of what was going on/going to happen and wanted to be rid of it. The guy I referenced owns a very popular personal webcam site (not mentioned cause I'm not sure he wants his troubles made fully public). They owe him about $134,000 right now.

[ Parent ]
holy f***ing shit! (3.00 / 3) (#3)
by circletimessquare on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 05:22:04 PM EST

i'm in the hole for $1700 and change

if you ever get wind of a class action law suit, contact me via email, i want in... and if i hear of any class action, i'll contact you too

ccbill has been good so far

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

CCBill (3.00 / 4) (#11)
by wejn on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 07:55:53 AM EST

We are CCBill's customer for over two years and we have the worst experiences with them, ever.

That includes:

  • lying about security breaches;
  • lying about scrubbing;
  • making unauth changes to customer's accounts;
  • shaving affiliate signups;
  • not replying any single complaint with meaningful reply -- it was always either "unable to reproduce" or "it's error on your end";
  • providing poor customer support to our customers.
The only thing they haven't done by now is postponed payment, but I guess they will go even for this, when the planet alignment's right.

I'm really happy we're finally migrating from them to different company.

Anyway, I'm not going into more details here, if you're interested, feel free to mail me.

[ Parent ]

ccBill on customer end... (none / 0) (#64)
by Gooba42 on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:24:51 AM EST

I was signed up with a site that used CCBill as their billing service. I failed to cancel my account, bad on me sure. When the site I signed up with switched providers CCBill continued to bill me.

I called the site, they said it wasn't their problem, I was paying CCBill, not them.

I called CCBill, they said it wasn't their problem, I needed talk to the site.

I wound up cancelling the card it was on because nobody would sort it out to where I'd stop getting billed.

[ Parent ]

you should have read the reciept (none / 0) (#73)
by killshot on Tue Feb 22, 2005 at 05:17:36 PM EST

you can cancel accounts yourself at https://support.ccbill.com ... no need to call people

[ Parent ]
Interesting... (none / 0) (#75)
by Gooba42 on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 08:05:40 PM EST

That's good to know as a consumer since apparently none of their customer support people knew about it at the time or saw fit to mention it.

[ Parent ]
Grow a Spine (1.25 / 8) (#16)
by Peahippo on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 02:21:17 PM EST

i'm as pissed as you are, and have no idea what to do

Bravo! That's exactly the attitude that Hypercapitalist thieves want you to have. You are powerless, you can't do anything, you may as well just roll your ass over to the next Hypercapitalist rapist to take his pleasure from.

Maybe this is social honesty on your part. The government (allegedly an investigative and legal authority) may not be too helpful anymore when a business under corporate charter simply declines to pay the people it contractually owes. Perhaps you're thinking that by making a phone call to iBill's state's Sec'y of State, that he will just have you fill out a form that one of his administrators will wipe his ass with.


[ Parent ]
huh? (2.40 / 5) (#18)
by circletimessquare on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 03:57:36 PM EST

who are you angry with? the perpetrator or the victim? ;-P

do you beat up rape victims on your free time?

LOL


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Consider this the fish of truth ... (1.33 / 3) (#20)
by Peahippo on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 05:29:59 PM EST

... smacking you in the face:

When victim and victimizer dance to the same tune, both are to blame.


[ Parent ]
like i said (none / 1) (#21)
by circletimessquare on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 05:46:23 PM EST

you're pov is like blaming the rape victim because of what she wore that night

you're a moron


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Damm (none / 1) (#22)
by Wallas A Hockpock on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 06:40:25 PM EST

But we knew that! He is.
But you are right again.

[ Parent ]
Wake Up (1.33 / 6) (#28)
by Peahippo on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 08:55:14 PM EST

The iBill incident is clearly one of rapist and victim dancing together to the same tune. Rape (in the case of iBill, fraud) is still illegal, still immoral, and is still something to be pursued vigorously by our legal apparatus. But it's still true that if you dress up in a "little nothing that you're almost wearing", and show up to a frat party, I can only shrug as you wake up sticky and violated the next morning. YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN. It is foolish to ignore risks, repardless of how "in the right" you'd be when they rise against you.

This all reminds me of some hometown wisdom: "Sure, you had the right-of-way over that truck, but he'll still run you over and you'll still be dead." Just like driving defensively, in the case of frat parties (or in doing business with a criminal company like iBill) it is incumbent upon a person to NOT be a participant in the environment of victimization.

Got anything more to say on this topic, Neo-Liberal? Any more contrived righteous anger to sway the readers?


[ Parent ]
Maybe sometimes (none / 1) (#31)
by levesque on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 10:28:02 PM EST

it is incumbent upon a person to NOT be a participant in the environment of victimization.

But not always. In the context of learned helplessness (taught submission) it is incumbent upon culture, the environment, -others to redress the situation.

[ Parent ]

Yes, *Always* (none / 0) (#35)
by Peahippo on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 03:21:35 AM EST

I can walk and chew gum at the same time. Similarly, I can criticize all parties in a case of victimization. The iBill customers deserve their legal recourse. But I've little trouble in admonishing them for placing such trust in an Internet address. The amounts in arrears that I've been hearing are simply appalling.


[ Parent ]
Yes (none / 1) (#48)
by levesque on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 06:57:43 PM EST

I can criticize all parties in a case of victimization... But I've little trouble in admonishing them for placing such trust in an Internet address. The amounts in arrears that I've been hearing are simply appalling.

Yes. "Admonish", I had to look it up, good wording.

I was on a semantic level. I was annoyed at: "YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN" because frankly I have never understood why someone who "does not know" can be said to "should have known": he should have known, why, because he did not hear, why, because he did not listen, why, because he did not listen to what would have led him to listen, why, because previously to that he did not... What was the first problem in this sequence if this view is valid.

He was not taught something that leads to this particular knowing. Pointing that out is cool but stating it as a paradox solely incumbent on the victim, I think, is mostly counter productive. Anyway I think that was where I was heading.

[ Parent ]

An Excellent Implication (none / 1) (#50)
by Peahippo on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 08:41:41 PM EST

When do we place the responsibility for ignorance upon the ignorant? This is an arbitrary line, like granting legal independence upon age 18. And since it is arbitrary, it's apt to cause some argument.


[ Parent ]
more contrived righteous anger (1.75 / 4) (#33)
by circletimessquare on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 12:28:11 AM EST

i have a very well thought out argument that attacks your central assertions and proves the illogical underpinnings of your contrived ideology:

you're a blowhard moron


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

So ... (1.50 / 4) (#34)
by Peahippo on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 03:16:09 AM EST

... have you chosen another payment processor with as little care as when you chose iBill? We just want to know if you're going to continue showing up to the parties in another sexy little number. We've got some punch for you to drink, but unlike last time, we prooooomise this batch won't be spiked. Har har!

(You're a bit of a boob, CircleJerk. But we still love you.)


[ Parent ]
what a shitstain (1.00 / 6) (#37)
by circletimessquare on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 03:38:50 AM EST

you rank all over me for contrived reasons like a bitch, revealing some sort of stupid personality disorder of yours

then you joke about the stupid bullshit you've dumped all over me, suddenly switching gears after blowing hot air about it for a couple of posts... as if that is supposed to mean anything except that you're full of shit... and plus, your joke is to make light about blaming a rape victim for being raped?

and then, glory be, after this cretinous slime you've dumped in this thread, you say you think i'm cool(!?), like some sort of asskissing sycophant?

you're one royally fucked up shitstain

no, really, you have a serious personality disorder and i feel sorry for what any friend/ family member/ significant other who has the misfortune of knowing you has to put up with


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

It must be ... (1.00 / 6) (#49)
by Peahippo on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 08:35:59 PM EST

... really frustrating for you to deal with the real world. If anything, your own rather abrupt barrages of insults are indicative of some sort of mental disorder. But that's just a suspicion, and there's no reason for anyone to even act on it ... since we are free to speak.

We do still love you. Your barrages are like a gentle rain upon our heads, since like most mature men, we are thick skinned. Soldier onward, CircleJerk. You may as well get your digs in before some Muslim suitcase nuke takes out your precious NYC. It's almost sad. (Well, almost.)


[ Parent ]
i don't have to deal with you in real life (none / 0) (#53)
by circletimessquare on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 10:03:07 PM EST

it frightens me to imagine someone who does


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I don't know (none / 0) (#57)
by mpalczew on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 02:41:13 PM EST

I tend to think that people have different personalities in "real life" than the anonymous internet.  Then I wonder if I'm not just projecting. Well if I am I'm not aware of it.
-- Death to all Fanatics!
[ Parent ]
that's actually true (none / 0) (#59)
by circletimessquare on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 03:24:23 PM EST

i'm different in person


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
No... (none / 1) (#51)
by Pxtl on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 09:40:31 PM EST

Its like blaming the rape victim for not calling the cops with the description of the rapist, which enables him to go on and rape others.   Still a trifle bitchy to do, but a little more of a legitimate complaint.

[ Parent ]
uh... no (none / 0) (#52)
by circletimessquare on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 10:02:19 PM EST

allegory is wrong

try again


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

oh my god (none / 0) (#65)
by sllort on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 01:01:17 AM EST

you totally voted for nader
--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]
0;vertical spam (none / 1) (#66)
by sllort on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 01:01:36 AM EST


--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA (1.00 / 6) (#70)
by ShiftyStoner on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 05:16:20 PM EST

You got ganked, owned you stupid nigger. Played like a fucking bitch. Is this were all the passion was coming from. You dumbfuck. Nothing to do with you, you are stupid, straight got robed 2 grand.

I'd love to see your face. now you see why I think I'm superior to you? because i am, duh.
( @ )'( @ ) The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force. - Adolf Hitler
[ Parent ]

So...what have you done? (2.62 / 8) (#4)
by thelizman on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 05:52:45 PM EST

Have you contacted Attorney General of the State in which the Business is located? Has anyone filed a complaint with the FTC (who has jurisdiction under 15 USC-1693)? Or have all you done so far is to complain to a bunch of trolls on K5?

Christ people, this is big money. I threaten to firebomb people who owe me more than $50.
--

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
I'm not burned... (none / 0) (#6)
by RatOmeter on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 05:54:19 PM EST

and my acquaintance who's in deep with them is pursuing all sorts of means at this time.

[ Parent ]
they're under investigation (none / 1) (#7)
by RatOmeter on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 05:55:23 PM EST

for related internal problems... like where did all that money go?

[ Parent ]
Naivete (1.72 / 11) (#15)
by Peahippo on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 02:14:50 PM EST

where did all that money go?

Have you been asleep for the last 10 years? Where does any of missing money go in corporations, except to the executive class?

And do you know why? (I mean, beyond the ultra-greed of the Hypercapitalists?) It's because it's terribly difficult to get money out of an executive, rather than getting the money out of some corporate account. When you try to pierce the executive with a demand for the money, you'll find the exec splits like tissue paper from your spear thrust, and you immediately {THUNK} into the hard shield of the exec's well-paid LAWYER. Behind the lawyer, there may not even be the money ... it may instead be behind the exec's wife's lawyer, or the exec's brother's lawyer ... etc.

As long as America refuses to create and maintain a Corporate Death Penalty, this kind of thing will continue to happen until the next great economic crash. Then you'll be carving up your own kids for food. Stupid American.


[ Parent ]
IAWCDP (none / 0) (#71)
by drwav on Sat Feb 19, 2005 at 05:17:11 PM EST

There are so many assholes execs out there that killing off a few tens of thousands of them could only make society BETTER!

[ Parent ]
and here I thought (none / 1) (#23)
by gdanjo on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 06:45:55 PM EST

only pimps and drug dealers firebomb people for a measly $50.

Oh, wait...

Dan ...
"Death - oh! fair and `guiling copesmate Death!
Be not a malais'd beggar; claim this bloody jester!"
-ToT
[ Parent ]

Ho... (none / 0) (#25)
by thelizman on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 07:55:06 PM EST

...I will he-bitch man-slap you...
--

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
[ Parent ]
No... (3.00 / 3) (#44)
by Nosf3ratu on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 10:10:37 AM EST

republicans do, too.


Woo!
[ Parent ]
re: and here I thought (none / 0) (#72)
by ParadisePete on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:32:51 PM EST

only pimps and drug dealers firebomb people for a measly $50.

Well yeah, sure. But he said more than 50, so he's OK.

[ Parent ]

WTF, over? (3.00 / 4) (#8)
by Tyler Durden on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 06:37:41 PM EST

Hmmm, after 4 days of not being paid, I'd have transferred my account out and been on the phone to any government agency I could think of to complain.    After a month, I'd have a lawyer on their ass.  By the 4th month, it's time for alternative justice.

iBill customers are going to get screwed on this.  That's a given.  The only question is how much.  Happily I'm not one.

Jesus Christ, EVERYONE is a troll here at k5, even the editors, even rusty! -- LilDebbie

They're just following (2.50 / 4) (#9)
by 3waygeek on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 08:52:44 PM EST

the Army's example.

Hyperbole, anyone? (3.00 / 2) (#10)
by Patrick Bateman on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 11:53:18 PM EST

From the "New York Daily Times" article:
iBill has become one of the most reviled, despised, mistrusted, and suspicious companies on the Internet, with business practices reminiscent of Nazi Germany.

---
I have to return some videotapes.

it's true (3.00 / 13) (#26)
by Delirium on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 08:25:55 PM EST

In Nazi Germany, sometimes credit-card processors wouldn't pay their customers for four months at a time.

[ Parent ]
Goodwin (none / 1) (#58)
by mpalczew on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 02:41:54 PM EST

this thread is over you loose.
-- Death to all Fanatics!
[ Parent ]
Goodwin's loose? (none / 0) (#60)
by efexis on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:31:23 PM EST

and that's two too many o's, you lose!

[ Parent ]
not my fault (none / 1) (#61)
by mpalczew on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:47:29 PM EST

It's not my fault that I can't spell because I'm fat.  Are you biggoted against fatties?
-- Death to all Fanatics!
[ Parent ]
-1, internet & capitalism (1.00 / 6) (#46)
by vera on Sun Feb 13, 2005 at 02:44:31 PM EST



Known? How? (none / 0) (#56)
by cdguru on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 12:19:29 PM EST

There are a lot of comments below that fall into the "you should have taken heed" as if there was a lot of warnings about this particular company. Huh? OK, so any company that processes credit card payments for porn has to be a little bit on the odd side, but is that the extent of the "warnings"?

We use "internet merchants" to sell software and it turns out that Digital River has bought up all of the various services that we were using. So, now it is just about all Digital River. Things change.

Who else does "internet credit card billing" for small-time sales?

linkpoint / cardservice intl. (none / 0) (#62)
by urdine on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 06:59:18 PM EST

We use Cardservice Internation through the Linkpoint API.  Was flawless for about a year, but has had unreported sales and other issues stemming from server overload - most of which have been resolved.  They also have some of the best rates, but customer service is far from ideal.  More of a programmer-friendly service than a yahoo store-friendly one.

Before that, we used GoEmerchant which constantly had problems (downtime) and limitations.  Might be better now though.

[ Parent ]

what about.. (none / 1) (#74)
by killshot on Tue Feb 22, 2005 at 05:21:19 PM EST

"any company that processes credit card payments for porn has to be a little bit on the odd side" Ok.. so then what about the credit card companies?

[ Parent ]
Consider the source, folks (3.00 / 3) (#63)
by johnbartley on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:19:08 PM EST

The sole source for this story appears to be the "New York Daily Times" website.. which uses the original name of The New York Times, but instead appears just to recycle other stories. Is it trying to transfer the cred of the Gray Lady to itself? Make your own judgement, folks.

The story itself also appears at <http://www.oregonherald.com/n/special-reports/internet-billing-company-fraud.htm>

That "Oregon Herald" also attaches itself to a historical newspaper name, with nothing as far as I can see to substantiate any adherance to standard practices of journalism. In fact, <http://www.oregonherald.com/home.htm?m=about> is nearly comic in its lust for anything resembling copy, as this bon mot from the end of that page indicates: We offer news publication for your rews releases.

It incorporated in 2003 as per Oregon's Secretary of State:
<http://egov.sos.state.or.us/br/pkg_web_name_srch_inq.show_detl?p_be_rsn=950606&p_srce=BR_INQ&p_print=FALSE>

The author name, "Lawrence Kiminski", appears nowhere else after a Google search.

And, reading the story itself, I don't see any reference to primary sources.


I have a way cool idea (none / 1) (#67)
by Mr.Surly on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 01:08:30 PM EST

Instead of copying/pasting URLs, perhaps we can make it where you can just click on them.  They could then be used to link to another document.  In fact, that's a good name, we can just call them "links."

[ Parent ]
One More Plea for Autoformat... (none / 0) (#76)
by SaintPort on Sun Feb 27, 2005 at 10:44:19 AM EST

of links to be restored to its former glory!

--
Search the Scriptures
Start with some cheap grace...Got Life?

[ Parent ]
on the private webmaster login (none / 0) (#68)
by circletimessquare on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 02:40:17 AM EST

Company Update 02/17/05

Dear Clients,

We would like to update you on several recent events that have occurred at iBill.

On January 21st it was announced that Interactive Brand Development ("IBD"), a publicly traded company, had acquired iBill and began committing the resources necessary to return iBill to a respectable and profitable status. For your information, IBD's assets also include a 36.5% stake in Penthouse Media Group, significant investments in broadband TV and interactive media properties.

IBD's decision to acquire iBill was based upon a full understanding of the issues facing iBill's business, and we are focusing our energies and resources on achieving a turn around at iBill both through financial settlement with our clients and exploiting our innovative and secure products for current and future business.

IBD has engaged a top-tier restructuring firm to oversee the day to day operations and management of iBill in cooperation with IBD's senior executives. As such, IBD is confident that iBill will be managed with proper corporate governance.

As part of this turn around initiative, iBill obtained an initial $2.0 million investment on December 30. Based on the plan being established in conjunction with our consultants, iBill and IBD have arranged for additional capital injections into iBill above this amount with a view of supporting and growing iBill while it continues to resolve the effects of the September 16th events.

Over the last five months there have been announcements regarding the funding of past due amounts. One of the first objectives of IBD's management will be to address this primary concern through an organized and cohesive plan. This plan will be rolled out in the next few weeks and will supercede any previous announcements or commitments. We expect to update you on this progress no later than March 9th, 2005.

As you may be aware, Cathy Beardsley, iBill's President, has announced that she will be leaving iBill to pursue other interests. While IBD regrets Cathy's departure we note that she chose both in the interests of iBill's clients and employees to remain at iBill during the very difficult months of uncertainty while IBD evaluated iBill's business. It is largely due to her efforts that IBD was able to feel comfortable in our ability to address iBill's financial issues and complete this acquisition to the benefit of iBill's clients. Over the next 30 days, Cathy will be working with IBD management to ensure the finalization of the First Data reserve release as well as the implementation of the Inteca trusted third party payment program for our European clients. She may also continue to work with iBill on a freelance basis going forward.

IBD recognizes that iBill's clients have been through a difficult period caused primarily by events now rumored to be affecting others in our industry. Our experience in dealing with these same events has resulted in the implementation of the gkard debit card payment solution. This secure product has been tried and tested over the past several months to the benefit of many of iBill's clients. As part of a new and strong organization, iBill stands ready to apply our experience and these products to existing and future clients.

Sincerely

Interactive Brand Development Inc.


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

BOOORRIIIING! (1.00 / 7) (#69)
by ShiftyStoner on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 05:12:30 PM EST

Like I give a fuck about what this company is doing. There are a lot of shady people, doing alot of shady things. A lot of shady buisnesses doing fucked up shit. No Big deal.

Well, acctualy this should have been placed under humor, it is funny that all those dumb ass motherfuckers got ganked.
( @ )'( @ ) The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force. - Adolf Hitler

iBill not paying their customers going on 4 months | 76 comments (54 topical, 22 editorial, 0 hidden)
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