I am not arguing about a general orgy problem. There was a study that
came out about 6 months ago that showed, amoung high school students,
pronography played a substantial role in shaping their sexual
attitudes. If you think that I am lying, then I can find try to google
it for you and get back to you with a link.
It's not a matter of me thinking you're lying. It's simply that most of
the "studies" in this area are really poorly done, and the rest are
usually overinterpreted, so it's a good idea to provide a link when you
mention one. I don't doubt for a second that the study you mention
exists, but I have some doubts about whether or not I would find it
particularly convincing, and even more doubts about whether
I'd consider it relevant. Also, I wasn't sure what point you
were trying to make by mentioning the study, since I couldn't understand
I fear for the sexual health of the younger half of my generation if
they think that acting out what they see in a porno will give them a
satisfying sex life. Too often now, when we speak of sex it is
completely detached from love, and love is what will give you a
fulfilling sex life.
Well, I tend to agree that porn is entertainment, not education, and
most of it frankly sucks as education.
I would argue that orgies are always harmful emotionally,
OK, start arguing...
especially for women who (for the most part) place a higher value on sex than men.
There have been experiments done that show women experience a physioligical-caused fundamentally stronger emotional attachment than men during sex.
Really, you have to start providing links for these papers if you're going
to use them in your arguments.
I know, as general knowledge, that sex, and particularly orgasm, cause
both sexes to release a hormone called oxytocin. Oxytocin
seems to cause both sexes to develop stronger emotional
attachments to the people they're having sex with. There are probably
also other neurological and psychological processes that contribute to that
effect; rarely are these things as simple as a single hormone.
Regardless of the underlying process, most people of both sexes
who have had any significant sex agree that it often causes you to
develop emotional attachments to the people you have sex with. That's
commonplace, everyday knowledge. The attachments don't end when the
sex ends, either; they can last a very long time.
I've never heard of any research that says the effect is stronger in
women than in men (which doesn't mean that none exists), and I don't
really have a personal opinion in the matter. It wouldn't surprise me
either way. I have met women who seem to feel the effect substantially
less than I do, but such anecdotes prove little. So, anyway, you're
right, sex has emotional effects on people.
I didn't realize that loving people was now considered
emotional harm. Even in the absence of long-term commitment, I've generally
found loving people to be a good thing. Including people at orgies.
Of course, both many women and many men are capable, under some
circumstances, of having casual sex without forming attachments
of any great strength. It's less fun that way, and it leads to less
general improvement in your social life, but it can be done. Unless you
have a big and unnecessary guilt complex about it, the only knock
against such casual sex is that it doesn't do you as much good
as more emotionally connected sex, not that it does you any active
harm. It's still fun.
Now, some people do have guilt issues around various forms of
unconventional sexual behavior. Many people also find that, when they're
involved in long-term romantic relationships, sex outside of those
relationships tends to weaken the emotional ties they feel to their
partners. This is by no means universal, but it's certainly common. Such
people may experience negative emotional consequences from orgies,
casual sex, and whatnot. The answer to that is that those
people should stay away from orgies, at least unless and until they
have found ways to reduce the harm until it's outweighed by the good.
Some people are allergic to cats, too, but you don't go around
claiming that cats are "always harmful".
Also, group orgies just reinforce the idea that people are just
masturbation devices. How can that be healthy?
They only reinforce that idea if you bring that idea in with you.
If you start out with the view that sex, or sex outside marriage, or
whatever, is dehumanizing, then you're going to feel dehumanized by
group sex, and you're going to feel like you're dehumanizing the other
participants. This attitude is, unfortunately, so common that people
often don't question it, and sometimes criticize it without noticing
that they themselves have it.
If you start out with the attitude that it's just a fun thing you're all
doing together, you're going to feel that the people you're doing it
with are "masturbation devices" in exactly the same degree that you feel
that the people you play volleyball with are "sports devices". Note,
before you discard this analogy, that sports release aggression hormones
just as sex releases affection hormones.
If you start out with the attitude that it's both a fun thing
and a way to reinforce your emotional connections to the people
you're doing it with, you will, in all probability, end up
reinforcing your emotional connections to the people you're doing
I think the reasoning shows that orgies probably negatively affect
a person's attitudes, and the burden of proof now falls on showing
that isn't true.
Um, what you're calling "the reasoning" is basically a bunch of
assertions which you seem to think are self evident and universal... and
most of which I don't accept. Using these and a lot of hidden
assumptions, you construct a long, shakey chain of argument starting
from some uncited and, I suspect, very preliminary research.
Not only that, but you seem to be adopting the extreme position that orgies
are (probably) universally emotionally damaging to all the
particpants. I can trivially prove that false from empirical evidence. I
have personally been to orgies that I found not only enjoyable,
but positively life-affirming, and that strengthened and deepened my
friendships with the other participants. I can find you lots of other
people (yes, including women) who will say the same. If you want
to call us all deluded, well, I guess this discussion has to be
over, since you're not going to find any more objective evidence
Even if you back off from the extreme, universal position, I do not
accept that you have established that anything is "probable".
None of which is to say that I doubt that some people are emotionally
hurt by orgies. It's all a matter of the prevalence, and, more
importantly, of how you go about alleviating the damage. If people see
high school kids breaking bones playing football, they make them wear
padding; they don't tell them to stop playing. If people see high school
kids breaking hearts with sex, they don't try to teach them to do
it right; they try to stop them from doing it entirely.
Did you mention MDMA for a reason? I am a vocal proponent of ecstacy at
I mentioned MDMA for two reasons:
- Because you're a vocal proponent of MDMA at Kuro5hin, and I thought
it might help to analogize the widely-condemned activity that you
like with the widely-condemned activity that I like. There are
a lot of similar knee-jerk attacks on both.
- Because there are some very real parallels. Oxytocin plays
with your emotions and changes your feelings and actions toward
other people. So does MDMA.
I thought that my mentioning that it was a non-random example would
make it clear that it was aimed at you specifically
[ Parent ]