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Days of the New Flesh: My Experience as a Model

By oceanbourne in Media
Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 01:18:21 PM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)
Culture

From the ages of twelve to twenty-two, I was a fashion model working mainly on print media photo shoots for a variety of clients from local retailers to international fashion houses. While the concept of a "supermodel" or perhaps even a model in general is one that many associate mainly with women, men and boys of course do also model. The experience of modeling is quite different from how television and movies often present it and has both some awesome and not-so-awesome aspects that might surprise those not in the industry. This is my experience as a model from my early teens to early twenties and what it meant to me.


Opening a magazine such as Vogue or Details is a bit of a different experience for me than perhaps it is for most readers. Flipping through the first few pages of glossy ads for cars and clothing, I almost instinctively focus on the flaws: places where the soft-box lighting on a model's cheek was too bright or a model on a tropical beach is too devoid of sand to have been sunbathing very long. I try not to do this as I would rather concentrate on whatever new product is being offered or at least the models themselves, but having been a model myself I react to the diorama before me in a special way. I know, at least, I am not alone as several model friends tell me they do just the same. Certainly, commercial photographers do, too, but for them there must at least be the whim of inspiration felt in seeing exceptional work instead of an overriding feeling of  . . . not quite dread but something very close. For it is the model whom, when a photo doesn't come out quite right will have to rehash their poses and once more (with feeling) endure the rigors of the hot studio lights or windy location or sticky oils that are supposed to make us look beautiful and alluring. Sure, the photogs have their own issues and there are plenty of reasons to not envy them, but at least they are on the cool side of the bright lights they position over every spare square-foot of ground they can find.

I started modeling when I was twelve because my piano teacher had commented that I had "that surfer kid" look that was at the time in-demand for fashion photography. Her daughter had modeled from high school through college and apparently loved the experience so she was able to put us in touch with some reputable photographers and agents. Moreover, I already had a vague concept of wanting to be a Broadway actor or otherwise in acting . . . if I wasn't a fighter pilot, helicopter pilot, pro soccer player, pianist, or assortment of other childhood goals for adult life. Modeling sounded exciting then: it was, my teacher said, "a lot like acting". I was a blond, tow-headed lad with tousled hair that drooped down to my shirt-collar; though genetically pale as the proverbial ghost, I had a deep tan in the summer as I lived in central Florida and spent nearly every waking moment outdoors. I did not know it at the time (nor would have cared) but I was at that perfect age before teens develop the acne problems that haunt many of us through adolescence : a fact I only learned when years later.

The first session with the photographer was all about creating a "book", or a portfolio of various  shots of me in different environments, wearing different clothing. This was the main marketing tool my agents would have in finding me work. When a person, especially a child or teen, enters the arena of modeling the first action taken is to get a good book put together to either find a quality agency willing to represent the model or, in the rare cases where such has been already accomplished, to secure actual jobs. Oftentimes, the agency will see enough potential in the book to hire the model as part of their roster but at the same time will commission a new book with their own photographers. With the absolute top-flight agencies this is almost always done with new talent to foster a sense of aesthetic unity and harmony over the span of all their models. A good fashion photographer can work wonders in providing an agency with a given "look" and the very best can furthermore provide each model with a distinct feel that should help prospective employers really focus on the best models for their needs. Of course, assuming that this situation always works out seamlessly as such is like assuming the mail always is delivered in a timely way or that everyone in a hospital properly communicates with each other all the time. There's plenty of margins for error in modeling like any industry.

I don't remember a lot about my first photo-shoot except it was a rather long experience and it was divided in two segments: a studio session and a location junket at a park. Boys, I later learned from photographers, are a special challenge for them as most young models are girls and the industry is geared towards certain types of shots that are more appropriate for girls. There has long been an emphasis on "sports" or "action" shots for boys, as to remove any stigma of femininity from modeling for them. In my case, as I played soccer, I was photographed kicking a soccer ball around the park and otherwise doing active stuff. The problem here apparently is that while such images are common to the business, not as many clothing retailers and other clients shoot these kind of images for actual jobs. Static studio shots are still most common for medium-budget retail ads and the like.

My photographer was astute enough to know the merit of the studio shots and to also bother with some outdoors head shots (very useful) for me. The whole affair, when it came back from the various stages of E-6 (slide), C-41 (color print) and black-and-white processing and printing included numerous 8"x10" prints and a selection of slides. This was at the time when digital photography was just becoming a somewhat viable tool and was not nearly as advanced as it is now, so there were no digital shots nor was anything put online or on a CD-ROM as it would typically be today. Indeed, Photoshop was not even reliable and complex enough to do the editing that would be needed so the few blemishes that required touch-ups were corrected by hand, on the transparencies (slides) with an airbrush: grueling and expensive work.

In the smaller markets, kids and teens make up the lion's share of models: a lot of girls seem to go into the field in middle or high school as do a growing number of boys. This is not good when it comes to the amount of competition in a small market with limited clients but it is at least useful in the sense that the photographers involved get accustomed to working with kids.

Along with the photos themselves, the portfolio contains vital information such as height, weight, eye color, and hair color. The more sophisticated agencies are adept at including other viable information such as sports the model has played, any foreign languages and musical and dance talents. Given that sports and things like teens strumming a guitar seem to figure into photo-sets a lot to the point it's very trite, it's good to know that the models may at least have some idea of what they are supposed to be doing. Many times, the photographers are clueless about all aspects of sports and other enjoyable and youthful activities they manage to script their models into. Some of the better photographers, especially those with a national reputation such as the gentleman behind ModelTeenz do know their sports and are good to provide an accurate representation. As I have been a skateboarder since seventh grade, I watched with great dismay when photographers would have myself or other models on skateboards but wearing running shoes and other inappropriate clothing for skating. Overall, this situation's vastly improved, though. Another nice aspect of being photographers is that while some lord over their expensive cameras, others were more than willing to let the models play with them some and encouraged our own budding interest in photography.

The best photographers and agents will help the young model establish his look, mostly based on the photographer's experience in seeing how models with similar looks have been best marketed. Despite what the public may assume, you don't try to produce clones in modeling but instead attempt to create distinctive looks for every model. Not everyone will be right for every job, sure, but the naturally attractive and interesting features of the model are best accentuated instead of being homogenized. In my case, I was supposed to be the "surfer kid" so I was largely left out of jobs that would include wearing a suit and tie or those where a wholesome, All-American kid was needed to stand grinning and adoring next an adult selling a lot-full of used cars or such. At first, I was not provided with many black-and-white shots, either, which was a big mistake considering that the smaller agencies do a huge business with newspaper advertisers who need to know how someone will look in monochrome. Color, you learn quickly in this field, is expensive as all. A good sixty percent of the overall business at my first agency seemed to be for newspaper and was monochrome. Hence, quality black-and-white work in your book is essential.

While my early agencies and photogs did an overall great job, I learned even in my teens some glaring mistakes they made:


--You don't try to make a skinny little blond kid look like a football player.

--Animals do not and will not cooperate in photo shoots.

--Florida is humid: you deal with hair accordingly And don't assume guys' hair is magically easier than girls to tend to during shoots.

--Photographic equipment almost always shows up in reflections in car ads if you are shooting close-in.  Sunglasses can present the same damn problem. (Nowadays, retouching in Adobe Photoshop makes this pretty much a non-issue, though.)

--Shots where kids are drinking Coke or some other soft drink are cute but make sure the brand is not evident when the client is trying to sell something else: consumers tend to notice the most-prominent of logos and products first.

--Boys don't know how to not get makeup all over their clothing while changing. And trying to learn this delicate art while wearing all white is not a good thing, either.

A word about makeup in general: it's all-present and gets on everything. Professional makeup for stage and screen is very different from the makeup you or your girlfriend applies in the morning to pretty up the face. It's primary function, aside from making the model more attractive, is to reduce glare from those inevitable strobes and other lights. Also, effects often have to be exaggerated to be apparent in the photo so this means more eyeliner, more lips gloss, more whatever. And always a ton of foundation, again, due to glare and oily reflections. Boys, of course, are rather wary of makeup (not all boys, but most I worked with) but we were coaxed into it nonetheless. We didn't have at that level especially great makeup artists, either, so you end up learning a lot from the better ones so you can do it yourself. Like Reba McEntire and Anita Baker, I usually did my own makeup. That is, when I was allowed to do so. I also learned that drugstore brands work just fine for the majority of applications contrary to what everyone in our industry wants to believe.

So that's the basics on how I got into modeling and what the initial experience with the business was like : now for the fun part. While I enjoyed the work I did in my early teens it was in my later teens and early college when stuff really took off. I never dreamed I would be huge as in supermodel huge, and I never exactly got there but I did get some sweet jobs, decent pay, and travel to posh and exotic locations. I transferred from one agency in Orlando to one in Miami that was connected to another agency in LA and which worked with some excellent photographers in both cities. Because I went to college in San Francisco, I ended up flying to LA and Miami a lot for modeling once I was in college but when I first moved to the Miami agency I was a junior in high school so it was more difficult. Plus, they just weren't finding much work for me at first. Fortunately, it picked up when I turned eighteen for several reasons:

First, this was the era of marked growth in mall-based middle-price-range retailers of youth clothing like PacSun and Journeys seasonal campaigns. The Internet was really taking off as a marketing device and before the legendary dot-com bust we did have the equally legendary dot-com boom. And San Francisco was the epicenter of that while in the mid to later 1990s, LA and Miami were the centers for modeling for youth fashion in general. There was a need for boys like me.

Second, I was eighteen. To be frank, you can do a lot more things with adults than kids in terms of what work you get them. And I don't mean porn, although of course that's always an option (though not one my agencies dealt in) also. A lot of jobs are going to want all the models to be over eighteen simply for liability issues and when in large cities, it's easier to work with adult talent when you have to fly people in because they can be (hopefully) turned loose and left to their own devices without too many ill effects.

I learned very quickly on a shoot in Miami that once you're eighteen a lot of things relax. Sure, some of the shoots I have been on had not been exactly the most wholesome of atmospheres anyways (while others were as pious as a vicar) but now there was no one purposefully looking out for me or any of the other models. Because I'd dealt with an agency in Orlando with a very good and solid reputation for its young models before, they had done a quality job of watching our backs. Now, that was out the window. Also, this shoot was a major production for a leading upper-range designer and it included a beach shoot and a shoot in a fabulous Art Deco hotel. Time, due to the caliber of photographer involved and his rather large posse of assistants, was of the essence so things were rushed. I had not done runway modeling before so I didn't know about the marathon changing sessions and hurry-up-now-wait nature of things. Most of the other models, about seven girls and five guys, were all runway pros already.

In a situation like this, there is little room for modesty. You are changing clothes in a backstage type area (in this case, an office off the lobby of the hotel where we were shooting) and while you're nearly nude you have your makeup and hair people as well as wardrobe folks milling around and fussing with your general appearance. Actually, make that fussing with your specific appearance. Nothing is left to chance. You wear your belt, whatever jewelry the way the stylist sees fit, not how you do. You don't get dressed in many cases until right before the shooting takes place and when you have changes of outfits, there is still plenty of time that you're standing around in your underwear while someone:

a)    finds the garment you're supposed to wear

b)    selects a different garment or realizes they had the wrong one

c)    has to alter the garment to fit you or otherwise do whatever they think it should do -- you'd never believe how many $900 shirts are held together in photo shoots by safety pins

d)    restyles your hair because the fans that simulate wind for the shoot messed it up already


Because of the close proximity you are working in and the nature of the business you quickly develop a sense of camaraderie with your fellow models, photo assistants, clothing stylists, hair stylists, and makeup artists. It's a very network-y professional scene, after all and to this day, I can be assured I will get into some of Miami's top salons for a cut and color even if I call the same very day. All the people in hair I knew then are still in business, it seems. Stylists, overall, tend to be sweethearts. The photo assistants on the other hand . . . and some models . . . eek.

People in this business are always out to find more work, and a lot travels via word-of-mouth. I did get a fair number of offers to participate in porn (both straight and gay) but declined. I have never been bashful, but it just didn't really appeal to me. Nudity though is a part of the business. My second Miami job was a shoot for a major competition swimwear manufacturer (no, not Speedo but a competitor) and when all you're wearing is speedo-type briefs and jammers (bike short like super-tight lycra shorts for competitive swimming) you end up changing in and out of these garments with nothing underneath them . . . so you see everything of everyone else. Not that such is a bad thing, but it's interesting.  Spray-tanning is an integral part of a shoot like this, as is being sprayed with all manner of stuff to make you look wet. Real water never seems to cut it for swimwear shoots: five of us were in a pool and while it looked great the photog's assistant wanted more shine on our shoulders so some oil was rubbed up there, we went back in and had to be absolutely perfectly still so that no ripples would cloud the water and make it hard to see our swimsuits (which, after all, were the product). Without sunglasses on, the light was blinding and we lost one reflector (a foil gizmo to reflect natural light on the models for the photo) into the pool and it had to be retrieved. Of course, a photo assistant does that: the models in the pool don't dare move an inch after we've been perfectly positioned.

A general word about clothing on shoots, especially the high-end ones: nothing is ever the correct size. If you're a 32 waist the jeans will be a 30 . . . as a 29 waist I never got stuff that was too small (which a lot of guys did) but ended up with plenty that was too large so, again, safety pins saved the day. With the swim briefs and jammers, two briefs were too large for me (a 34, which is really like a 32) and one jammer was too small and rather uncomfortable. As a stylist remarked, "you guys do really bust your balls in this job". Shoes never fit and unless they are the product being shot, they are always an afterthought. I had to wear a pair of adidas Superstar shelltoes that were about a size and a half too large on one occasion and could only try to drape my jeans in a way that didn't make them look too large. You can sometimes wear your own shoes but most of the time your street-clothing is already somewhere far from the shoot clothing and a stylist will select something for you instead. Always, there are complaints about the shoes and people running to and fro to exchange stuff. This is one reason you commonly see sandals in many ads where the footwear is unimportant and they would be appropriate: the sizing isn't so essential and they can be kicked off easily.

What about anorexia? Indeed, it is an aspect of this business and it is not limited to female models, either. I have heard, in fact, that anorexia is very bad with high school male sprinters because it is under-diagnosed with boys: certainly, in modeling it was also not spoken of with male models as much as with the female ones. However, those of us (like myself) who looked more boyish than manly were often encouraged to look as adolescent as possible and to therefore not gain weight at a point in our lives where doing such would be normal. For a period of time I was myself somewhat anorexic although I don't think I would have met the clinical criteria for anorexia. Still, when I look back at some of those old photos I know I was simply too thin for my 6'1" frame.

Complaints aside, modeling in places like Miami and LA is not so bad, and certainly not all work. We'd go out clubbing most every night unless a night shoot was planned in which case we'd be far too exhausted to dance afterwards. How do you feel after a day of modeling? Much like you feel after a transcontinental flight with several layovers, really. Most models are excellent dancers and many of us have taken years of dance anyways, so we're party people. When we have a chance to dance, we dance. One thing that most people probably don't realize though is female models tend to be rather tall and in heels at a club look a bit too Amazonian at times. Still, most are beautiful people and not just physically. We're in an industry that some may easily (and in some ways, rightfully) see as vapid, but it's also an industry that's supportive of many other areas of business and we are people who by and large enjoy our work. Moreover, many of us go on to other fields--be it photography or business or law--after modeling. Unfortunately, modeling--except at the highest levels--is not the sort of thing one can turn into a long-lasting career in most cases.

Sex? Yes, that goes with the territory if you want it to, as do drugs. The latter is something I stayed far away from though I knew plenty of people who did not.  Sex, however . . . yeah. Whether you're straight or gay it's very accessible and at the age of eighteen or so, it's certainly something you'll take advantage of, too. This doesn't mean that it's a whirlwind of orgies, though, because again even if such was really available all the time you are far too tired for it. You don't end up sleeping alone though if you don't want to and because of the fact that you spend a lot of time around people you find attractive often wearing very little there's plenty of potential for attraction, affairs . . . and related drama. I discovered that a fair number of male models are gay or bi, which didn't surprise me, but is interesting when you think about it in the scheme of things. Also, when you consider how much advertising is blatantly heterosexually-minded in the sense you see a guy and a girl eating together, holding hands, driving somewhere . . . whatever. When you're gay and see this--not only the end product of it but the production of the ads in detail--it does present to you how important harmonious, happy, hetero relationships must be to middle America. And it's damn funny to see a guy holding a beautiful girl tight in his arms during the shoot and then to be making out with him later that same night after the club.

One of the fascinating things about our business is watching the different trends in photography that evolve. When I started modeling the whole grunge look was still very big but slowly faded out towards a more refined and elegant approach. However, photographers such as Nan Goldin and Corrine Day (herself a fashion photographer) greatly influenced work while I was modeling as did skateboarding and other "street" oriented photography. The more elegant look was something my agency mostly avoided because their competition was more into that so we did a lot of work that was less polished and truly, more innovative. Our location shoots were often structured to look less "perfect" and contrived and more like a couple kids were goofing around with a camera one night. Apparently, 1970s porn, B-movies, and the first wave of grunge fashion, and goth subculture were also huge influences on our photogs, as this example shows. One interesting aspect to this aesthetic was that clothing often had to be distressed beyond what it would be when sold in retail for the photo shoots. I have even seen stylists (clothing stylists, not people who do hair!) take Converse Chucks and rubs grease on the white toe-caps to make them look worn and not gleaming and brand-new. It's amazing what a lady with a tackle box full of acrylic paint, box-cutters, and sewing supplies can do to make something brand-new look vintage.

Before we had digital cameras, Polaroids were used to check how a photo would actually look before it was committed to film . . . usually by having a special back on the medium format cameras the photogs favored to take the Polaroid exactly like the final photo would be shot. We would have these Polaroids laying around everywhere by the end of the day and it was these that would give us our only glimpse of what the final piece would look like. Of course, this wasn't even accurate because you had to factor in all the cropping and other work the graphic designers would do prior to sending something to the printers as an actual ad. They could create things out of the raw photos that were produced that I think even the photographers never expected. Just the addition of typography gives a photo a whole new look, never mind what selective cropping or changing something from color into black-and-white could accomplish . . . for better or worse. During the whole time I was modeling, I would get new shots done for my book to constantly keep it fresh, also. And from the photogs I learned a wealth about their craft that, despite some of the reservations I may have about certain individuals, has garnered them my total admiration as a group of professionals. Beyond that, it's inspired my own avocation of photography.

When I left modeling it was because school kept me too busy. I didn't want to walk away from it but I was at a level where if I couldn't travel I really couldn't work and school and travel were not mixing in an agreeable way. Moreover, I was very involved in snowboarding which seemed to take me to places very different from where modeling jobs would take me. Something had to give. I had taken a lot of computer engineering and programming courses and managed to hook up a job as a LAN administrator on campus which suited me fine given that it meant I could get most of my homework done while sitting at my desk and being paid for it. To this day, I look back on modeling fondly, overall. Some friends I made in the industry I still stay in touch with and a couple photogs I worked with I still find time to time to have work in major publications, which makes me happy. It's a fascinating business . . . I am not in the least chagrined or cynical about it or regret it. Nor do I see it as the epicenter of glamour that some people (mostly those with no contact with the industry) espouse it to be. Modeling is unique but it's a part of the greater whole of the advertising and marketing industry . . . but that's a story for another time.

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Display: Sort:
Days of the New Flesh: My Experience as a Model | 246 comments (217 topical, 29 editorial, 0 hidden)
Shaving body hair: required? (2.00 / 3) (#3)
by durdee on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 06:04:01 AM EST

Because whenever I see a guy with no leg hair, I assume he's swimmer and/or gay.
---
Fact: You have no insight whatsoever into my motivations, personality, or thought process.
not so much (2.50 / 2) (#9)
by oceanbourne on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 01:36:16 PM EST

Not required: it depends on the model. I shave almost all my body hair but that's a personal choice. Some guys look ok with body hair, but models do what they need to do to look their best for their body type. For something like the swimwear shoot though, we did shave . . . again, because swimmers do.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
Thx for bringing this up (2.75 / 4) (#34)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 07:28:58 PM EST

I shave most of my pubic hair but find shaving my scrotum (Gillette and shaving cream) to be a, umm, pain. I don't get it as smooth as I'd like. Is there something that would make it easier or a product meant for this? I imagine waxing your nutsack would be a, umm, pain.

--
"What's next, sigging a k5er quote about sigging someone on k5?"


[ Parent ]
balls (2.50 / 2) (#37)
by oceanbourne on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 07:59:37 PM EST

I use a creme-like body wash that also says it can be used for shaving to shave my pubes. a new, good-quality razor is paramount. Also, take a wash cloth and cold water to your balls so they will shrink up as much as possible. That way the skin around them will be very tight and a lot easier to shave. Glide the razor along, never apply much pressure.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
Hmm (2.50 / 2) (#38)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 08:14:45 PM EST

Pretty much how I do it. Have to try the cold water thingie, though. Thx.

--
"What's next, sigging a k5er quote about sigging someone on k5?"


[ Parent ]
Somehow... (2.96 / 31) (#43)
by ktakki on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 08:39:26 PM EST

...I always knew that K5 would wind up as a repository of ball-shaving advice.

Any tips on defoliating one's ass crack? As middle age approaches, I've become insanely hairy back there, to the point that wiping after taking a shit is like trying to get peanut butter out of a shag rug.

Thanks in advance.


k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

[ Parent ]

K5 Lives (3.00 / 8) (#96)
by cione on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 03:48:27 PM EST

This comment and this comment alone make K5 worth reading

___________________________________________

The crazy people really have it all together
[ Parent ]

Shaving (3.00 / 2) (#212)
by Pig Hogger on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 02:37:25 PM EST

I've been epilating my pubes for about 12 years. I fist started by bona fide shaving, about 20 years ago. Although the feel and look was awesome, when it grew back, it was terribly painful. And shaving the stubble was not easy either.

I finally let it grow back, but would still shave maybe once a year. One time, I actually took the time to epilate with a tweezer. Took me about a week (for 1 hour a day). The sensation is great: it does not hurt. This prompted me to get an woman epilating machine which yanks the hair. Since then, I've been going hairless - I only need to do my crotch every 6 weeks or so.
--

Somewhere in Texas, a village is missing it's idiot
[ Parent ]

re: not so much (2.66 / 3) (#42)
by tantrum on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 08:37:05 PM EST

just wanted to say as a swimmer that I've never ever seen a commercial for swimwear where the model actually looks like a swimmer.

There is always problems with the fitting of the swimwear and the bodies of the models. They simply just does not look like swimmers. This is true for both male and female models.

And no, I'm not talking about Sport Illustrated photo shoots, but ads like speedo, arena etc.

[ Parent ]

swimwear (2.50 / 2) (#45)
by oceanbourne on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 08:45:51 PM EST

You've found us out! I don't think any of the models on that shoot actual swam . . . I know they wanted us to do a few takes diving off the platform diving boards and such and no one had the experience to do it.


Why do the jammers fit so &#@&&$*& tight though? Why can't they fit properly and how do you measure correctly for them anyways?


Oh, and Speedo . . . Arena . . . and one other company comes to mind . . . hmmm
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

Phelps (2.75 / 4) (#170)
by student on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 08:07:34 PM EST

These days Michael Phelps and Natalie Coughlin seem to do all the advertising for competative swimwear.  Obviously, they are swimmers.  Non-competative swimmers don't want to look like Phelps.  Real swimmers are a bit freakish.  Even moderate ones start to grow in odd directions.

Competative swimwear is tight because athletes like to have their muscles squeezed.  I'm not sure that there is any evidence that it makes them faster, but people go to great lengths to make elite athletes happy.  There's also very little evidence that shaving makes people swim faster.  It's like baseball players hitting home plate with a bat.  Of course, some degree of tightness is necessary.  Racing starts are violent.  If a good swimmer doesn't put his jammer on right it might come off or tear from the force.


Simon's Rock College of Bard, a college for younger scholars.
[ Parent ]

yes (none / 1) (#171)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 08:38:50 PM EST

I think Phelps is hot, not freakish. And I dated someone this summer who was a swimmer so I have great respect for them . . . I ran track in college so I know all about the weird things clothing manufactures will do for us . . . in some ways, it's not so removed from modeling in that regard.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
hi-rez proof or stfu [n/t] (1.12 / 8) (#4)
by AlwaysAnonyminated on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 06:27:24 AM EST


---------------------------------------------
Posted from my Droid 2.
Did you ever think that maybe ... (2.41 / 12) (#12)
by Ignore Amos on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 03:12:53 PM EST

... there's more to life than being really, really, ridiculously good-looking?

And that explains why airplanes carry cargo on small boats floating in their cargo aquarium. - jmzero

yes, in fact (3.00 / 4) (#14)
by oceanbourne on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 03:30:13 PM EST

Yes I do. That's probably why I have contributed to fields as diverse as literary studies to translation theory to paralell processing. That's probably why draw, paint, and compose music. That's probably why I have published poetry. Modeling was one part of my life : and just that. But an interesting part all the same.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
Le Tigre's a lot softer. (none / 1) (#16)
by Ignore Amos on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 03:33:43 PM EST

It's a bit more of a catalog look. I use it for footwear sometimes.

And that explains why airplanes carry cargo on small boats floating in their cargo aquarium. - jmzero
[ Parent ]

the band? (none / 1) (#17)
by oceanbourne on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 03:37:52 PM EST

Le Tigre the feminist pop band? Love them!
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
Click ... (none / 1) (#25)
by Ignore Amos on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 05:46:40 PM EST

... here.

And that explains why airplanes carry cargo on small boats floating in their cargo aquarium. - jmzero
[ Parent ]

PARALLOL PROCESSING! (3.00 / 8) (#18)
by army of phred on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 03:42:33 PM EST

fight the $

"Republicans are evil." lildebbie
"I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about." motormachinemercenary
"my wife is getting a blowjob" ghostoft1ber
[ Parent ]
Zoolander (none / 1) (#157)
by eightants on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 04:48:28 PM EST

This is a quote from a funny Ben Stiller movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0196229/

[ Parent ]
Funny (3.00 / 6) (#106)
by skim123 on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 09:29:21 PM EST

I don't find him to be particularly good looking. Too effeminate. Kind of like how my neighbor's wife (who has a beard) looks too masculine.

Money is in some respects like fire; it is a very excellent servant but a terrible master.
PT Barnum


[ Parent ]
nice zoolander quote = (none / 1) (#189)
by CodeWright on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 11:38:10 AM EST



--
A: Because it destroys the flow of conversation.
Q: Why is top posting dumb? --clover_kicker

[ Parent ]
Hilarious (1.75 / 4) (#13)
by actmodern on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 03:19:08 PM EST

What a great troll. Surferboy model turned LAN administrator. Really funny.


--
LilDebbie challenge: produce the water sports scene from bable or stfu. It does not exist.
I don't get that (none / 1) (#15)
by oceanbourne on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 03:31:57 PM EST

Why are people here so cynical? Do you really believe that anyone who is cute and blond is also stupid by default?
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
You're an example of it (2.00 / 3) (#19)
by actmodern on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 04:02:11 PM EST

You're a LAN administrator. Do you have any idea how quickly people like you are being replaced by clickety-gui applications that just manage everything? Or is it what you use trying to pass yourself off as some "IT professional."

Talk me to me 5 years when you're doing data entry because "LAN administrator" is some obselete job only college kids get at school for something to put on their resume.


--
LilDebbie challenge: produce the water sports scene from bable or stfu. It does not exist.
[ Parent ]

hoisted by one's own petard (3.00 / 3) (#27)
by oceanbourne on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 06:07:03 PM EST

Actually, if you'd bothered to read that paragraph with care, you'd know that I was only a LAN admin while in collge because it was a job I was able to get and offered what I needed at the time. I am not one now.


So before you try to diss people you might want to at least check the facts at hand. It only make you look stupid . . . especially when your whole act is apparently how bright you are.


It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
you're on LIVEJOURNAL (1.66 / 3) (#40)
by actmodern on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 08:28:05 PM EST

For fucks sake. Stop acting like you're a braniac.


--
LilDebbie challenge: produce the water sports scene from bable or stfu. It does not exist.
[ Parent ]
and that means? (none / 1) (#44)
by oceanbourne on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 08:39:40 PM EST

And the most recent thing I posted on LJ was an abstract of mine for a paper for a peer-reviewed journal on language processing. Don't assume that people on LJ are stupid or even are all still in high school: I know a doctor who documented her work in Africa via her LJ.


Does it like, hurt you or something to be nice to people?
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

YHBT. $ (3.00 / 2) (#51)
by skyknight on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 10:42:15 PM EST



It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
righto (1.40 / 5) (#53)
by actmodern on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 01:29:29 AM EST

Q.E.D, I should say.


--
LilDebbie challenge: produce the water sports scene from bable or stfu. It does not exist.
[ Parent ]
haha what the fuck? (none / 1) (#200)
by An onymous Coward on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 06:27:54 AM EST

You were bashing him for having a smart job, and now you're correcting yourself, pointing out that it's not a smart job, but you're still insulting him in the process? :P

"Your voice is irrelevant. Stop embarrassing yourself. Please." -stuaart
[ Parent ]
What?? (3.00 / 5) (#62)
by mr strange on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 06:58:48 AM EST

Why are people here so cynical?

This site is WWW.CYNICAL.COM. OK, actually it's not, but that would be a good name for it. If you post here, you'd better expect some pretty harsh treatment.

There are some idiot kids who post "yuor ghey"-type comments, but they're just trying to emulate the real posters. Those are the one's who'll explain to you exactly why you're a worthless individual, all in well written and convincing sentences and paragraphs.

Don't let it get to you. You're posting to K5 for pete's sake!

intrigued by your idea that fascism is feminine - livus
[ Parent ]

You're cute? nt (none / 1) (#204)
by Russell Dovey on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 10:04:04 AM EST


"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

Ignore him... (3.00 / 2) (#240)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 06:55:10 PM EST

He's just jealous.

[ Parent ]
I'm a model (2.61 / 13) (#21)
by trane on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 04:35:08 PM EST

you know what i mean
I shake my little tush on the catwalk

this is awesome, +1 fp (2.45 / 11) (#22)
by circletimessquare on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 04:35:44 PM EST

but just remember your audience here: usually fat unattractive asocial straight white guys who won't be able to get past a heavy wall of fear and loathing to really grok your experience, as your experience is well outside anything they know

so you want to steel yourself against the combination of retarded negativity and outright retarded teenaged boy humor you will find under your story


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Thank you! (3.00 / 3) (#28)
by oceanbourne on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 06:14:21 PM EST

Thank you, thank you, thank you!


In saying that you've crushed every bit of opposition I've found in coments here to my article.


When people stop and look at what they've written in their responses to this article they will see that they are being very myopic. Unless we're stuck in showing of Revenge of the Nerds here, people need to stop hatin' on me.

It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

haha (2.16 / 6) (#41)
by actmodern on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 08:30:52 PM EST

i'm not white and i still think you're a fucking retard.


--
LilDebbie challenge: produce the water sports scene from bable or stfu. It does not exist.
[ Parent ]
icky (2.00 / 2) (#46)
by oceanbourne on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 09:24:00 PM EST

Did I harm you in another life or something?

I just wrote about an experience that seems a little out-of-the-ordinary . . . I never said I was better-looking nor brighter than anyone else but I am confident in my abilities and thankful I have tried a diverse array of things in my life. Why do you have issues with that? Just because I am not cynical and I actually seem to enjoy myself?


Most of us got over the way you act when we were in sixth grade: grow up.


It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

have you heard of trolling? (2.00 / 4) (#52)
by actmodern on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 01:28:30 AM EST

do you know where you are right now? think carefully. check the diary section. yeah that's right. we're going to bite down hard on you son. very hard.


--
LilDebbie challenge: produce the water sports scene from bable or stfu. It does not exist.
[ Parent ]
sethelasthos (2.00 / 2) (#55)
by oceanbourne on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 02:43:27 AM EST

I have never understood trolling. Yes, I know what it is, but I am not a hateful or cynical person. I wrote what I think is a decent article. I would expect people to offer constructive insight instead of barbed words that serve no purpose. Again, that's playground behaviour.

I know I am more literal than most people, but then I do get stuff done. I like it that way. If you don't like my article, that's fine. But why not leave it at that?


It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

This is the internet (3.00 / 5) (#57)
by tetsuwan on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 04:31:22 AM EST

and a even rougher part of it. We have a 40+ sweet lady here calling people names just because it's part of the jargon. You'll only get trolled if you playing along. It's not about hate. It's about stupid comments triggering stupid replies. At K5 this jargong is quite well developed. Actmodern (who is an arse by the way) doesn't think you're stupid because you write on LJ, he thinks you are easy to troll because you write on LJ.

Oh, and it took me two years to accept this jargong. I'm not very interested in trolling.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

righto (1.75 / 4) (#66)
by actmodern on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 09:15:50 AM EST

Q.E.D.

Q.E.D indeed.


--
LilDebbie challenge: produce the water sports scene from bable or stfu. It does not exist.
[ Parent ]

Look. (3.00 / 8) (#59)
by Kasreyn on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 05:48:55 AM EST

It's not that k5ers consider you personally to be a rotten guy. You're probably just fine for all I, or they, know. It's that most of us consider your entire profession to be a revolting excrescence upon our society and an insult to the words "homo sapiens". It is a parasite feeding upon social anxieties and body-image insecurities, and occasionally helping to incite them when they're insufficiently abundant.

You'd get the same guff if you wrote an eye-opening insider article on being a telemarketer; you're fine, but your job does nothing but increase the world's stockpiles of misery. And if you were a telemarketer and had friends, they'd be remiss if they didn't bug you about getting a job with better karma.


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
[ Parent ]
however (none / 1) (#91)
by oceanbourne on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 02:45:56 PM EST

I cannot speak of telemarketing, though I detest it as much as anyone else, however modeling is a field that supports and caters to the greater industry of advertising. If you have a problem with modeling, then take it up with advertising. What we do we do because we enjoy it. And those of us who like fashion also enjoy the magazines which the ads we create appear in . . . I suppose some people don't, though.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
Advertising is the devil's 8th deadly sin. (3.00 / 2) (#205)
by Russell Dovey on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 10:06:36 AM EST

I read it in a magazine.

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

Trolling explained (3.00 / 5) (#63)
by bml on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 07:59:26 AM EST

Some people experience a small self-steem rush when other people reply to their posts. Writing messages and getting replies can therefore turn into an addictive/compulsive activity.

Many of these people, however, lack the social or intellectual skills to spark a meaningful exchange of opinions, so they resort to writing controversial messages in order to get replies.

That's what trolling is about, in a nutshell.

The Internet is vast, and contains many people. This is the way of things. -- Russell Dovey
[ Parent ]

Meaningful exchange of opinions? (none / 1) (#73)
by durdee on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 10:49:23 AM EST

Hogwash!
---
Fact: You have no insight whatsoever into my motivations, personality, or thought process.
[ Parent ]
K5 = internet playground. [n/t] (none / 1) (#94)
by nate s on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 03:10:25 PM EST



[ Parent ]
A good comment on trolling (3.00 / 7) (#104)
by localroger on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 07:33:35 PM EST

Some time back, someone -- one of the trolls actually -- made a very good observation. Comparing this site to another which enforces anti-trolling censorship, they said "K5 is for the strong. That other site is for people who can't take it."

And there is a certain truth to that. I've taken a lot of abuse here, but it has taught me the value of a thick skin. Just remember that for everyone ragging on you about five people quietly voted you up. Abusive and rude people are much more noticeable and vocal in all venues, even more so here than in real life.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

perhaps (none / 1) (#114)
by oceanbourne on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 11:19:15 PM EST

From what I understand you're next to the royal family around here, so I thank you for your astute advice.

However, I don't believe any environment should ever encourage rude and nasty words. What good does it serve? Why would we need a think skin if everyone would be nice and contribute usefull stuff instead of the dross of their overused and rusted out metalic barbs?
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

Well, the way I see it... (3.00 / 3) (#143)
by localroger on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 08:20:22 AM EST

...if I ever become as well known as some people (*cough*) think I should be, then one day I might find myself in front of a TV camera with someone like Bill O'Reilly or Ann Coulter. Then I will be grateful for my experience here :-)

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
OMGHUSIFAGGOT!!!!12 (3.00 / 1) (#241)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 06:57:43 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Speak for yourself! $ (3.00 / 6) (#32)
by mr strange on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 06:58:11 PM EST

Are you looking for CORBA training?

intrigued by your idea that fascism is feminine - livus
[ Parent ]

wow CTS (1.75 / 4) (#71)
by bankind on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 10:28:20 AM EST

You normally have a good radar for pointing out self-aggrandizing assholes, but I think you miss the mark by giving this douche bag anything but scorn. Any attacks on this guy are far less about a gay guy with a different experience than a self-proclaimed intellectual polyglot (who strangely lacks the precision in language normal for that class of people) posting pictures of himself on the web.

This guy is really just trying to affirm his own self-image through social acceptance than contribute, and those types are the big problem with the Empire.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

the problem you say he has (2.50 / 4) (#77)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 12:16:50 PM EST

is my problem, and your problem as well

otherwise, none of us would be posting here at all

no one can pull apart these two concepts:

  1. posts on k5 to make a positive contribution
  2. posts on k5 to toot his own horn
all posts on this website, from the most retarded diary entry, to the best front page story ever posted, falls into category #2

category #1 is the only wild card, and we vote to see how much #1 is true or not


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

well ya missed my point (3.00 / 2) (#108)
by bankind on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 10:19:44 PM EST

certainly those two concepts can't be separated, but if someone wrote an article on "how I spent my summer killing Iraqis" then there is a moral dimension as well.

While this certainly isn't of the same degree as that example, the impact of the glamour industry on society is something that shouldn't be so readily accepted, regardless of the majority view.

When people can name more supermodels than ex-presidents, we have a problem--a narcissistic, hedonistic, corrupt Empire that digests packaged images more readily than ideas: a celebritocracy--a cover band for democracy.

This article was more of a glorification of this person's modeling career (and himself) than anything else, and you're discrediting any objections as the work of socially retarded homophobes. That isn't an accurate generalized accusation. There are plenty of other outlets for this type of trite shat, like VH1 or Oprah, the trolls could simply be sick of this type of social cancer.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

you missed a lot (3.00 / 2) (#109)
by oceanbourne on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 10:39:46 PM EST

I want to make a couple things very clear because your post, unlike many comments here, seems sincere and well-considered though I believe it's logical is very flawed.


Kids can name more actors or maybe (as you claim) even supermodel than ex-presidents because of a shoddy public school system in this country. And because those celebs are constantly in the media anyways. Pay teachers better, make the texts better, make kids do more research work even in high school instead of just learning stuff for exams and you'll be in better stead there.

As I have repeatedly said in my article and in comments here, I found plenty to fault with the modeling and advertising businesses. My article is in no sense PR for modeling. Read it again if you think it is. And wait for people who are involved in the industry to say so, too. Their voices are not represented here, but were it published in some larger venue with a more diverse readership, you'd certainly have people up in arms about how I faulted the industry over trivial things. What I offered was a glimpse at a novel career that is a little out of the mainstream. I was not making any comments about the real morality of the industry because I was speaking as one person and had no interest in becoming a moral compass for anyonre else.


It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

Then its fluff = (none / 1) (#111)
by bankind on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 10:42:28 PM EST


"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Which model agency produced Paris Hilton? (2.50 / 2) (#123)
by tetsuwan on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 04:49:27 AM EST

I think PH is as famous and uninteristing something ever can get, but you know, she's a self made woman cashing in on the general media situation. Haute cutour shows and fashion magazines are not the root of the problem. The are basically the same as a hundred years ago. The problem is profit oriented broadcasting. Call me an elitist schmuck, but profit centered publishing and bradcasting is bound to produce so much crap the occasional gems won't be distinguishable.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

you can't blame corporations or the media (none / 1) (#126)
by circletimessquare on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 05:17:42 AM EST

for what is in our hearts

vanity is part of human nature, get used to it, no amount of education will ever remove it

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I actually thought I agreed with you a while back (2.50 / 2) (#128)
by tetsuwan on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 06:03:36 AM EST

but no, it isn't true. Just as 200 years of peace makes different men, other social circumstances also breed different men. Humanity is not unchangable at heart. For example, looking old is considered a major problem for women in the US, while it is a minor problem in Sweden (the difference is huge). So, while there are som hard coded features (social stratification, power struggle) other features of the human mind (or heart) isn't hard wired. Societal universalism is as flawed as N Chomsky's universal grammar.

It Is fully possible to create culture that make people hurt themselves. A simple example is Hollywood car crashes and how people react in real life car crashes (breaking backs to escape the supposed explosion). Another example (which you will hate) is crime shows and security sales in the safest parts of Canada.

What you are saying, when you say that media companies cannot create good or bad culture, only culture, is the same as saying that the talibans don't create bad culture. Misguided greed can hurt people, just as misguided religion can. You can profit by spreading fear and ignorance.

Yes, vanity is in our hearts, but how it is expressed in our culture is a whole other business. For example, do you support the development of a culture where plastic surgery is semi-mandatory for women?

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

oh jesus christ get your head out of your ass (1.50 / 2) (#130)
by circletimessquare on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 06:42:33 AM EST

what is at the root of something can not be overruled by what comes out of it

you think the cruft of culture and learning is more powerful than base human weaknesses?

did communism change the nature of human greed?

you fail at the intellectual ability of perspective


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

OT (3.00 / 2) (#131)
by Ravear on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 06:59:25 AM EST

keep fighting the good fight, cts

[ Parent ]
Actually, (2.50 / 2) (#134)
by bankind on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 07:20:57 AM EST

did communism change the nature of human greed?

No, but it does provide a rallying cry for the disfranchised to overthrow colonial occupiers or monarchies. The roll of political commissars in revolutionary militaries during the past century shouldn't be dismissed so out of hand.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

nice side observation (nt) (none / 1) (#137)
by circletimessquare on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 07:44:06 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Riddle me this (none / 1) (#135)
by tetsuwan on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 07:25:09 AM EST

in some societies individual lives mean something, in others they don't.

Oh, and for all your self-proclaimed interest in Polynesian cultures, you still don't know that greed is not fundamental? How can you have greed without a materialistic society?

Ah, of course you will try to ignore this argument all together, or try to tell me that power struggles in tribal societies is all about materialistic greed, or some other wank. I assure you, I will be not fooled.

cts, you really should learn to stfu when you are wrong.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

humans (2.00 / 2) (#136)
by circletimessquare on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 07:43:29 AM EST

are individuals

they are greedy, they are vain

all the rest, all the culture, all the geography, all the history...

it amounts to 0.00001% rounding error on the observation of their greed, vanity, and individuality, whereever they are form

travel the world: everywhere you go is good, evil, loud, quiet, angry, peaceful, etc., in equal proportions, the world over

the more people you meet, the more cultures you visit, the more you realize how utterly same we are

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I said it already (1.50 / 2) (#138)
by tetsuwan on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 07:50:32 AM EST

u r as stupid as Noam Chomsky.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

you're an ethnocentric retard (1.50 / 2) (#141)
by circletimessquare on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 07:56:11 AM EST

so according to you, you pass a magical mountain ridge or river valley or line of latitude and suddenly greed or vanity fundamentally alters?

jesus fucking christ you're an inbred local hick

try traveling more, you backwoods provincial

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

oh sweetie, you make me chuckle. (2.00 / 3) (#151)
by tetsuwan on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 12:48:55 PM EST


Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

you don't have time to laugh (1.50 / 2) (#217)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 06:48:01 PM EST

you're choking on my dick

sweetie


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Sorry, sweetiepie (1.50 / 2) (#224)
by tetsuwan on Sat Dec 03, 2005 at 12:13:43 PM EST

you just have to continue to touch yourself, I can't help you out there.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

you're wrong (2.00 / 2) (#125)
by circletimessquare on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 05:16:26 AM EST

vanity is an essential element of human nature, you can't educate it out of a human being

just like you can't educate greed out of a human being

societies based on the assumption that humans aren't greedy, such as communism, are hopeless... just as hopeless as some magical impossible society where somehow humans aren't vain

we like shiny pretty objects, just like crows and monkeys do, it's in our nature, and it's impossible to remove

you and bankind need to make peace with that inalienable fact of human nature, no matter how ugly it seems to you, as there is simply no getting around it


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

essential doesn't mean unalterable (2.50 / 2) (#197)
by jnana on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 01:09:39 AM EST

While I do largely agree with you, I think you overstate the case a little. Under your totally unequivocal statements, there is no escaping the conclusion that the *primary* motivations for Gandhi or the Dalai Lama also were/are greed, vanity, and so forth.

You can't really believe that the essential nature is absolutely unchangeable, as plenty of people become less vain, less greedy through effort to improve themselves. And if you're just saying that it can't really be eliminated 100%, that's true but rather obvious, as few us really think otherwise, just as few of us think that education, advertising and the like have no effect on us.

[ Parent ]

absolutely wrong (2.00 / 2) (#218)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 07:00:33 PM EST

gandhi and the dalai lama were vain and greedy... in every day harmless ways, as we all are, in childish ways

you can talk about vain and greed without assuming you are talking about the most perverted expression of these elements of human existence

read ganhi's autobiography, i did: the petty fights he had with his wife are absolutely luaghable in their similarity to any other meathead versus shrew domestic situation

it's a very rewarding read, to see gandhi as just another imperfect man, not an untouchable legend or god

it's not a negative to bring gandhi "down to size" like this, but rather, to see how ANY of us can be just as gandhi was (and is)

the funny thing is, gandhi would probably smile and agree wholeheartedly with me on this issue of essential human elements

because things like greed, vanity: they don't change, it's finding SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE ways of expressing these things, not suppressing them, that is the real issue

look at it this way:

does sexuality go away if you mitigate it's asocial impulses?

no... human sexuality evolves in a human as a human grows form child to teenager to man in such a way that other human beings aren't hurt by its expression

a human being is not an innocent vessel that has things like vanity greed and sexual perversion introduced to it

a human being is a monster who is educated into socially acceptable ways to express impulses that are already there

if you have ever been around a toddler in your life, you know exactly what i am talking about


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you misunderstand me (2.00 / 2) (#230)
by jnana on Mon Dec 05, 2005 at 12:17:24 AM EST

gandhi and the dalai lama were vain and greedy... in every day harmless ways, as we all are, in childish ways

I did not say that they weren't vain and greedy, but that they weren't *primarily* motivated by vanity and greed. Big difference! Of course we are all greedy and all vain, but to lesser and greater degrees -- and environment and culture do have greater than zero influence on whether it's lesser or greater. For some -- perhaps most -- of us, greed makes 90% of our decisions -- but do you really think (A) that is completely invariant from person to person, and (B) that that it is completely invariant from moment to moment, stage of life to stage of life, for an individual, and (C) if not B, that culture, experience, and the individual have no control over how much it expresses itself?

you can talk about vain and greed without assuming you are talking about the most perverted expression of these elements of human existence

I agree perfectly, and I don't think I implied in any way that I was talking about the most perverted expressions.

read ganhi's autobiography, i did: the petty fights he had with his wife are absolutely luaghable in their similarity to any other meathead versus shrew domestic situation

I have read Gandhi's autobiography, and I completely agree, but I never said he was perfect or a saint or not full of the human imperfections that all of us are. But likewise, if you have actually read his autobiography, and you think his *primary* motivations were greed and vanity, then we probably understand the world too differently to be able to really communicate about this. Yes, Gandhi is popularly revered as inhuman and perfect, and of course he wasn't, but you can't go to the other extreme and say he was just as greedy, selfish, and vain as everybody else. Few of us would have been willing to make the sacrifices he made. QED.

It's very popular nowadays to say that everybody is perfectly equally greedy, selfish, vain, etc., and so we should all just accept ourselves for the way we are rather than try to actually improve ourselves. It's also very common to leap from the observation that nobody (and no act) is completely without greed and the like to the conclusion that (A) all people are equally greedy and..., and (B) this is essential and hardwired without possibility of change -- and thus nurture (including advertising and the media) has 0.0 % effect on it -- , and (C) if every act is tinged to lesser and greater extents by greed, vanity, etc., then we're justified in saying that greed motivates everything -- so at that point, we just throw up our hands and say that Gandhi is just as vain, selfish, and greed as the pedophiles and rapists of the world. At that point, you've completely drained the original concepts of greed and the like of their traditional meanings, and you're talking about something else altogether.

[ Parent ]

More X than ex-presidents... (2.50 / 2) (#145)
by thejeff on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 08:32:01 AM EST

Kids can name more actors or maybe (as you claim) even supermodel than ex-presidents because of a shoddy public school system in this country.

This is an argument that's always bugged me. I first saw it with brands of beer.

I can easily name more actors than ex-presidents, and I'm bad with actors. (Worse with supermodels, I doubt I could name more than a handful.) Even if I could name all the ex-presidents I could still name more actors. There are only 42 ex-presidents. There are a lot more actors...

I'll bet most kids could name well over 40 actors, so it doesn't matter how many presidents they know.

[ Parent ]

you need to make peace with human nature (2.00 / 3) (#124)
by circletimessquare on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 05:11:59 AM EST

we like shiny things, like crows and monkeys

as soon as you remove people's covetous desire for shiny pretty objects, you win on all your points, but until then, you lose

so i think you're just going to have to make peace with the fact that, yes, it is possible for arnold schwarzenegger to be elected governor of california

as much horror as that idea fills you with, it is you who has to acclimate yourself to that horror, because that horror is never going away, ever

because there is no educating vanity out of human nature, no way, no how, never

there are plenty of ugly truths in life that people have difficulty accepting, others don't have this difficulty

i'm well aware of your strengths in accepting certain ideas about how economic incentives work in society that other brain dead twits do not understand, because they won't accept certain undeniable truths about fundamental human greed

well, we've just discovered a similar braindead weakness of yours: you can't accept human vanity

so maybe if you can intellectually understand why communism is a ridiculous attempt to assemble a society composed of human beings somehow magically devoid of greed, perhaps you can take that intellectual abstraction and point it at yourself: understand why your rant against human vanity is just as hopeless as a diehard communist's pov


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

vanity isn't the right word for this (2.62 / 8) (#133)
by bankind on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 07:07:51 AM EST

It is the hubris associated with an empire in decline. How Emperors make their horse consuls and President's nominate personal attorneys as Supreme Court justices. Vanity is the antithesis of productive (such as XXXX being "in vain").

In fact the book that made me decide to become an economist was Throstein Veblen's Theory of the Leisure Class, which is about nothing but that love of "shiny objects." It makes some great assessments of the "savagery of jewelry" and is the source of that great phrase conspicuous consumption.

However, the issue is less to me about vanity as an abstract, than it is about the degree vanity is dominating US culture. And that any attempt to argue against this trend is automatically the musing of a socially retarded homophobe (especially since gay men have a strong monopoly on what is considered fashionable).

I'm not looking at this as black or white, and I'm not rallying for Naomi Klein or any of that, but during my annual trips to the mother country it always amazes me how even the most intelligent people I know can tell me a hundred stories about some celebrity romance, while being completely ignorant of things like Kashmir earthquake, or even domestic issues like the economic destruction of LA post-Katrina, or the recent bankruptcy reforms or the KELO v. New London supreme court decision. So fucking ignorant that they'll call the heir to the multi-million dollar Hilton hotel franchise "self-made," or accept the son of a president and former director of the CIA when he claims to be a "Washington outsider."

The issue is more as if people are more interested with the concept of a person than being an actual person. So they spend their time money and whatever, cultivating this concept that to a large extent is just a poor copy of humanity, and humanity declines.

Every American might have at one time been a king, but now we're all obese Neros playing the violin as Rome burns, with hairless boyish looking metro-sexuals of both genders plastered across every available surface.

I think it is hard to deny the current excess, even if you are about to begin your tirade on "every generation says the next is ruining everything." I've been integrating with a different society for quite some time now, and it is incredible how much of this you really can't attribute to modernization, or progress or social evolution--I can't call it anything but decline.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

you smell shit long enough it smells sweet (2.00 / 3) (#139)
by circletimessquare on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 07:53:07 AM EST

vanity is an essential element of human nature

across all time, space

that observation dwarfs all of your observations by orders of magnitude

but you're not even on topic, you got some stick up your ass about the decline of rome that you'll ratchet any detail into your constellation of signs and perturbations and go "see! see!"

i thought you were an economist, but you're acting like a numerologist

you're obsessed with an impression of decay

this is very romantic of you, but it is historical myopia

i remember reading somewhere, aristotle i think it was, talking about kids showing signs of disrespect and moral terpitude, talking about society sliding into decay

every age of man is obsessed with how "kids these days don't show no respect" and how everything is falling apart

it's a constant impression, and societies grow and ebb, completely unattached to the impressions of decay people receive

yawn

add to the list of human frailties of greed and vanity, one you demonstrate quite well: hypochondria

"oh my god, what are the symptoms? society has that disease!" lol ;-P

you become obsessed with an idea, you see it everywhere

here you are ranting about the decay of society, because some guy wrote about being a model

jesus fucking h christ on a pogo stick

i'd hate to be your doctor

"does this mole look like it grew to you!?"

societal hypochondria


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

watchyoutalkin'boutnancyreagan? (2.50 / 6) (#146)
by bankind on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 08:50:48 AM EST

as I said it is a matter of degrees--this isn't a dichotomy. There is no fox news culture war or any of that jive, but a steady acceptance of form over substance. The result is that rather critical debates on troop deployments in Iraq, turn into "cowards turn and run." Maybe I expect too much, but you are certainly accepting too much.

But I agree that attacking the decline of American culture in a fluff piece about being a model is a bit excessive, but I found the article to exemplify this issue, and a suitable enough venue for a little venting. But anyway, it was this douche bag's whole world outlook, writing, ethics, etc that bothered me more than just modeling, and then you're defense of said douche bag.

For Christ sakes, he called an art deco hotel "fabulous," I know gays that would take away his gay card for fueling that gay stereotype.

As to your accusations of being a numerologist, writing on morals is pass for economists for sure, but it was the subject of Adam Smith's other book. Bah, accused of not considering morals, and now accused of considering them too much... just can't win.

BTW: I think you mean Socrates, who was opposed to the younger generation's use of text, as in the written word, and thought it to be the catalyst for the destruction of human intelligence.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

grow up (2.66 / 3) (#149)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 12:33:48 PM EST

Ok, hold up here:

For Christ sakes, he called an art deco hotel "fabulous," I know gays that would take away his gay card for fueling that gay stereotype.


Firstly, I don't believe in a "gay card": I am a person and being gay is just my sexuality. I am a humanist, not a feminist, not a gay whatever.


Art Deco in Miami Beach, prior to becoming a trendy social setting was a negelected American gem: that's why people advocated getting it on the Historic Register and why architects like Lawrence Dixon now have had retrospects and serious works of architectural history published about them. Speaking of architectural history, it's an area I have studied in depth and there is a lot published on all areas from vernacular architecture of this century to the Gothic revival of the 19th that holds less water than what's been done on tropical deco.


You're simply mean and immature: in a forum less vacant and cynical than this one you'd be laughed or thrown out of the room. I do not endorse nor did I in the article above endorse material culture of the current age in any glowing terms. Sure there are material things I enjoy, but who doesn't? There are some beautiful pieces of jewelry out there in example and that's whay said works are in galleries and attract attention as works of decorative art as well as status symbols or trinkets, which is probably all you would view these as. Regarding Paris Hilton, I am not much of a fan of hers, either, but she's elected to have a career in the media and expanded in a variety of directions. Perhaps without her family's name and wealth that would have been impossible, but apparently society for whatever reason has enjoyed her rise to fame. You know, I don't even watch TV at all: before you act like you know me you should not so quickly associate me with the aspects of American culture you are so ready to attack. Also you should realise that most issues are much more dynamic than you've allowed in your rants here. Grow up . . .
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

I don't reply to personal attacks = (none / 1) (#152)
by bankind on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 12:49:06 PM EST


"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

so pwned you are (none / 1) (#153)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 01:00:07 PM EST

Don't respond to personal attacks? You'll note nothing personal about my response to your attack: you're the one calling me names while I just explicated the facts at hand. All I said about you is that you had flawed logic and would be laughed out of the room elsewhere. I based what I said on what you said, nothing more.

But enough of that: I think you've realised that the Art Deco and other comments were something you can't really defend. Btw, the first time I saw Miami Beach's deco was when I was still in early high school and it was before restoration efforts were underway . . . Barbara Baer Capitan had just began her efforts to get the deco district recognised and get these unique hotels restored instead of ignored. Ask any architectural historian from Ken Frampton to William Curtis to Dell Upton and he'll tell you about the importance of Art Deco in American architecture and design. So when I arrived at the Delano and it had been restored, it was indeed wonderful to see that. It wasn't just a cute little ghey comment on my part.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

You sure like to use the word "I" = (3.00 / 2) (#174)
by bankind on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 09:36:16 PM EST


"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

dude, look at it this way (2.00 / 2) (#181)
by circletimessquare on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 11:29:16 PM EST

the existence of darkness does not impact the existence of light

before i get too zen, i'm simply trying to say that human vanity is a constant across all states of societal rise or decay

china is on a meteoric rise... do we want to talk about the leaps of vain excess that is going on in that country?

vanity can exist over here in this corner, and intellectual austerity can sit over there in that corner, and never do they have to meet, and neither threatens the existence of the other, and they can coexist in society just fine, they are not oil and water, they are not antimatter and matter, they are just two states of human existence that just exist of their own right and volition, with no effect on each other's size or influence or potential

to stare into the corner containing vanity, and stare wide eyed at it and exclaim "it's growing! see! our civilization is crumbling!" is just nuttiness dude

as for oceanbourne, what he brings to this site is something new and different: talks about nordic esoterica in one fp story, talk of living as a gay male model: do you not prefer this to another diatribe about iraq or another dissertation on linux's superiority to microsoft?

come on dude, surely you can appreciate that a wide and varied intellectual diet leads to healthy brain cells


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I Cassandra (2.00 / 2) (#185)
by bankind on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 02:12:24 AM EST

vanity can exist over here in this corner, and intellectual austerity can sit over there in that corner, and never do they have to meet.

It might not be black in white, but it certainly isn't a harmonious separation. You got those Aaron Burrs and us Alexander Hamiltons, and at times we got to shoot it out, otherwise those Aaron Burrs are going to create fake water sanitations systems with public money so they can buy more wigs and face powder.

You're right that this exists everywhere. But vanity, like greed is only good, Mr. Gecko, when tempered by a functioning system of checks and balances--generally from a legal system (or other institutions) developed from the accepted norms of the population.

When the norms of the majority are corrupted (by greed, vanity, fundamentalism, whatever), the system becomes corrupted--JS Mill's tyranny of the majority.

In a developing country this is a system of flux, where material accumulation is accompanied with the development of more advanced societal norms (tolerance, philanthropy, understanding of the public good etc.)--great new book by Ben Freidman on this subject.

But vanity as a societal norm in China? Certainly not outside the growth core, they can't afford that luxury.

But what is this in a developed country? What is it when a country consumes at a rate greater than it earns and blames poor people's meager wages to be the problem?

What is it when a country can't accept defeat at the hands of "weaker opponent" 30 years after the fact and instead can only blame itself--the pages of the NYT--as the cause?

There is a tremendous amount of delusion in and about the Empire and too much staring in the mirror is just one of the causes.

I think you're right that this is way things have always been throughout history, but then again I thought America was different, was exceptional.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

in kabul (2.00 / 3) (#191)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 12:25:41 PM EST

you will find 14 year old girls hiding in a backroom trying on lipstick underneath their burkha's and giggling at each other as they hand around a cracked 6" square plastic mirror

this is the face of humanity, it's static, unyielding: we're all vain, even you

in fact, perhaps, those who don't admit their vanity are probably amongst the vainest of us all: for vanity comes in many different tweaks to the ego, not just the obvious western plastic surgery variety... i only wonder what yours is, growing under your denial and blindness, it is probably more monsterous and twisted than anyone else's

it's like admitting you are an alcoholic or not, or, saying you will never get in a car accident: if you say you never will, you probably will, because you'll take dumb risks since you think you are immune... while if you admit you could die in a car accident, you'll probably drive very carefully, and therefore have a much lower risk of getting in a car accident

such is the basic truth of all inescapable human weaknesses of ego and pride over reason: there are no escaping them, only admitting you are beholden to them and therefore, in that very instant, mitigating that weakness's power over your life

so you, mr. antivain, are probably hiding some monstrous perverted version of vanity on your psyche, something you might not even be aware of, the way you spout off against it so unnaturally and vehemently

you're utterly and completely deluded on the subject, which only leads me to believe you're the vainest person here of all

it's kind of scary how you might actually manifest it, unbeknownst to yourself, but seen by all others in your life

it doesn't have to be a physical vanity

there are so many different kinds of vanity, usually attached to pride and the ego in some aspect of your life, some vanities are quite warped

which of course, makes them worse than harmless honest everyday garden variety physical vanity

physician: heal thyself

admit you are human


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

congratulations on your conversion to Christianity (2.66 / 3) (#210)
by Battle Troll on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 11:08:46 AM EST

Welcome home, brother.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]
there there funny battle troll, good boy (pat pat) (1.50 / 2) (#216)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 06:45:58 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
yuo fail islamic studies (none / 1) (#214)
by tkatchevzombie on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 04:22:08 PM EST

actually, muslim women dress very much in a tacky, tasteless and sexually ambiguous fashion when at home.

it's not really a culture of chastity like in christendom, more like a culture of jealosy.

[ Parent ]

dude, i read that somewhere (none / 1) (#215)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 06:44:58 PM EST

i didn't make it up

i'm certain it was a taliban era depiction though

which i think was very much an era of chastity, don't you?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

good god, you fail twice (2.50 / 2) (#223)
by tkatchevzombie on Sat Dec 03, 2005 at 11:29:03 AM EST

the taliban has nothing to do with "chastity", at least not in any way shape of form that would be recognizable as such to any person grounded in christian culture. (i.e. anyboody 'white')

[ Parent ]
Thanks for the sermon, (none / 1) (#219)
by bankind on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 10:27:37 PM EST

but I am totally irrelevant to this discussion.

What is relevant is a society that prior to an offensive invasion believed it would be greeted as liberators, and thus did not plan for the prolonged occupation.

What is relevant is a country so convinced that SH "was out to get us" that while he was playing WMD poker with Iran, we thought he was bluffing us (this is the accepted version in the private intelligence community).

There is an amazing moment in the film Fog of War, where 20 years after the war ends, McNamara comes to Hanoi. He says his mission is still to try and convince former NVN leaders that the US was trying to work in the best interests of the Vietnamese people. He is shocked to learn that the NV saw the best thing for the VN people was a VN without the US.

The US political apparatus is experiencing a steady increase in the frequency of excessive vanity negatively influencing the political decision-making. You can tell me "all are vain blah blah blah," which is not the point. The point is that vanity IS particularly potent in the US political culture and IS causing these bad decisions, undermining the institutions that created the society, and limiting the ability of leadership to make the decisions needed for nation building abroad.

Maybe your holy "vanity" isn't the correct word for this, and if you have a word/concept that can ties these issues together in as neat a package, I'm open for it.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

dude (none / 1) (#221)
by circletimessquare on Sat Dec 03, 2005 at 03:19:13 AM EST

you're talking about arrogance, hubris maybe, but not vanity


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
but there (none / 1) (#222)
by bankind on Sat Dec 03, 2005 at 05:07:36 AM EST

is that additional need to "prove supremacy" and set an international/historical precedent.

I'd also think this different than arrogance, as arrogance can come from an achievement. I like hubris, because it has that "against the gods" meaning, but it lacks the hollowness of vanity.

Vanity works because it has that additional unproductive/vapid meaning--more like arrogance even more corrupted as it is hollow, also it is related to "waning."

Vanity also ties in with the cultural self-centeredness, suggesting that the political failings do have a societal root. Bonus points cause she also stared alongside Carl Withers in Action Jackson.

You obviously disagree that the leaders of a representative politic can't be the manifestations of the society, but if you replace "vanity" with superstition/religion it is hard to hold your argument. It might not hold on the particular individual, but it does hold on the aggregate.

And no, I'm not making a judgmental condemnation on materialism, but saying only that an excessively vain populous will want/demand excessively vain public figures.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

dude (1.50 / 2) (#225)
by circletimessquare on Sat Dec 03, 2005 at 05:41:47 PM EST

you're a poet

but you need a dictionary (snicker)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

check the OED for yourself = (3.00 / 2) (#228)
by bankind on Sat Dec 03, 2005 at 11:13:37 PM EST


"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

Agreed, but (2.66 / 3) (#147)
by bml on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 09:08:12 AM EST

It's true that all through recorded human history the old have complained about the young. But it's also true that they're right sometimes.

Hypochondriacs do get sick. Or, as they say, "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you".

Empires decline eventually. It's perfectly reasonable to believe that the American Empire is entering a phase of decline right now. There's ample evidence to support that thesis.

The Internet is vast, and contains many people. This is the way of things. -- Russell Dovey
[ Parent ]

the american empire is dead (2.00 / 2) (#180)
by circletimessquare on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 11:21:42 PM EST

long live the maerican empire

it's all bullshit, it's like reading tea leaves or animal entrails

mainly because the rise or fall of the pax americana has less to do with the usa than with other countries

america isn't going to decline so much as china is going to rise

1.3 billion middle class chinese, or not, make all the difference

i bet on america's decline not so much for anything else other than that china's rise is going to dwarf not just the usa, but basically the entire globe

or: china could collapse in a year... i don't think that's going to happen, but america's status rides on china's status more than antyhing else

it's all relative

a degenerate decaying american empire is still the center of the world if everywhere else is more degenerate and decayed

get it?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

wait a second (3.00 / 3) (#166)
by Battle Troll on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 07:02:42 PM EST

Isn't your shtick that the stupidity and laziness and worthlessness of the roundeye devil's degenerate, lardass grandkids is going to have America to Chinastan on a silver platter? Or was that last week?
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]
you're so yesterday (nt) (none / 1) (#179)
by circletimessquare on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 11:17:41 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
+1, fp (2.00 / 2) (#140)
by Battle Troll on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 07:55:35 AM EST

The sheer uselessness of the upper middle classes in America - outside of their narrow and highly contingent (though high remunerative) specializations - is just staggering to this prairie farmer's son. They all know how to arrange flowers and pick medium-priced wines, but they can't change a bicycle chain by themselves.

I found it astonishing how many more skills middle-class Eastern Europeans have got than their counterparts here. More cultivation also. America can't keep this up forever. As for our intellectual classes, well, they're highly trained idiots.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]

You totally missed my point (3.00 / 2) (#165)
by tetsuwan on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 06:53:00 PM EST

There are plenty of rich people's daughters that would love to be as famous as PH. Far outside of the US (where I happen to reside) fashion columnists faithfully cover every dressing choice she makes, she/s mentioned all over. And then again some. AFAIK, this is all her own making. Heck, she doesn't even look good. She's just fashionable and extremely good at manipulating media. That's why I called her 'self-made'. Knowing what it takes to get famous is also a skill (albeit unproductive), although I agree she had a head start.

As for knowing what happens in the world:

  1. What is special about Angela Merkel and how could she use this to her advantage?
  2. Why did France vote no to the new constitution for EU?
  3. Describe the relationship between Eritrea and Ethiopia!
  4. Which country in South America has the best public services?
  5. Where in Europe would you find flat taxes?
  6. What reform caused the latest elections in Japan?
  7. What does Russia and Japan always argue about?
  8. What does China and Japan always argue about?
  9. What is Mbekis biggest blunder?
  10. Why is the southern part of Thailand more violent than the north?
These are just a few issues on top of my head. Go ahead an call me ignorant all you like.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

"How I Spent My Summer Killing Iraqis" (3.00 / 2) (#207)
by Russell Dovey on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 10:09:42 AM EST

I'd really like to read that article. You can bet that it would be interesting.

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

pure gold. (none / 1) (#239)
by gzt on Wed Dec 14, 2005 at 01:09:05 AM EST

I know I'm coming in late on this, but your side of this entire conversation is hot shit.

[ Parent ]
duh (3.00 / 2) (#79)
by oceanbourne on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST

I speak a number of languages but I do not consider myself an "intellectual" nor do I feel that the language one speaks or number of languages one speaks indicates that person is brighter or better-educated than the next person. You could have a person who is a computer scientist, say, who only speaks English and is very adept at his field and someone who who is in another profession that through merit of cultural background speaks a number of languages. I have only included photos of myself here because it was germane to the article.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
He probably lacks the precise language... (3.00 / 2) (#206)
by Russell Dovey on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 10:08:36 AM EST

...because he knows it makes him look arrogant.

Sure, you don't care if you look arrogant, but he's a model; appearances matter to this guy.

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

OMG!!! Reverse double negative roundhouse troll! (3.00 / 4) (#89)
by fluxrad on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 02:39:32 PM EST

you are my own personal jesus christ.

--
"It is seldom liberty of any kind that is lost all at once."
-David Hume
[ Parent ]
I agree. (3.00 / 2) (#193)
by ParetoJ on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 03:33:33 PM EST

When I first started reading this story I thought "oh my god, the trolls are going to come out of the wood work on this article".

That's so just because any story from a personal perspective (articles are often about a topic that is very seperate from the person) just gives opportunity for comment.

[ Parent ]

You look so f******g emo. (1.22 / 9) (#24)
by V on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 05:27:45 PM EST

-1
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
but of course (3.00 / 4) (#26)
by oceanbourne on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 06:04:02 PM EST

Heh.

They wanted me so f***g emo!
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

Interesting read, really. (2.28 / 7) (#33)
by tetsuwan on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 07:18:49 PM EST

I have only two objections:
  1. After all this time in the US, when did you go (back) to Frarna?
  2. I'm envious. I look better than you, but I would never get a modelling job because I'm not tall enough. I once almost got one, but then I got a 'Oh, sorry, You really looked taller sitting down'.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance

shorty (2.20 / 5) (#36)
by oceanbourne on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 07:53:25 PM EST

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And it's the voice of a seventh grader to say that "I look better than you". How rude.


I know plenty of male models who are not over six feet.


I travel a lot . . . I grew up in American and the UK but still feel close ties to the Faroes and Denmark.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
I know it was a childish comment (3.00 / 3) (#56)
by tetsuwan on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 04:15:17 AM EST

But since you've been modelling, and I haven't, I really thought you wouldn't be bothered. Of course, I'm just bitter because I haven't really been able to take advantage of my looks. Women don't care too much about looks ... and here, being blond is a disadvantage.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

but . . . (none / 1) (#90)
by oceanbourne on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 02:42:24 PM EST

I wasn't "bothered" but I am just a very polite person myself and wouldn't ever tell anyone I was more attractive than they are . . . so I was surprised another adult would do so. Women really aren't interested in looks? What do they go for in guys then? Seriously . . . being gay I don't know.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
Well they do care about looks... (3.00 / 3) (#93)
by firefox on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 02:57:48 PM EST

insomuch as you're not ugly. But they don't really choose men based upon exceptional looks, just exclude based upon significant deviance from aesthetics. Confidence and success seem to be the prime motivators.

[ Parent ]
Yup (2.66 / 3) (#103)
by tetsuwan on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 07:00:51 PM EST

Apparently Mozart had problems because women thought he was ugly. So if a man is really ugly, even great success isn't enough to counteract this. OTOH, money and power always work, I guess.

There's very little to be gained from 'above average' to 'exceptional' looks for a man. It is almost an disadvantage, since some good looking men (unhumblingly including myself) have a harder time finding women with average looks attractive. Height and weight is also a factor. Plenty of women place any man shorter or lighter than themselves in the unattractive category.

But ignoring money, confidence and charm are the most important factors for impressing women.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

yeah (2.50 / 2) (#105)
by oceanbourne on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 08:05:11 PM EST

That is all very interesting but to me, sad. It seems to re-enforce grossly outdated gender roles.


For me, what matters in a boyfriend is that he's cute, sweet, funny, and smart. And that we get along. I see everything as an equal partnership so his so-called success is his business. I think equality is the best approach for any relationship.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

I think the same way (3.00 / 2) (#122)
by tetsuwan on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 04:28:52 AM EST

but that's more often than not a disadvantage. Women can afford (or think they afford) to have rules like 'I make sure I'm never more emotionally involved than the guy'. And even on the otherwise quite feminist Swedish radio a girl proposed to have gender based dating rules 'it's better if it's always the guy who asks for the first date'. Just because that would make it simpler for her! Of course, I always assume that there will not be any action if I don't take the first step, but the reverse is also true. I.E for me to notice someone I haven't.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

You know my pain! (none / 1) (#107)
by glasnost on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 10:12:42 PM EST

(((((tetsuwan))))))

I think there are only two groups who think good looks are any use to men: (1) Ugly/loser men, (2) the parents of good looking men.  


[ Parent ]

and gays (2.50 / 2) (#120)
by tetsuwan on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 03:01:50 AM EST

which in our case isn't worth much.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

no (none / 1) (#127)
by m a r c on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 05:20:25 AM EST

come on, really..... Next time you go out drinking on friday night have a look around. The women are looking at the better looking guys and these are the ones who, if confident, will have first pick, so to speak.

The thing with women though is that they are more holistic in their appoach to personal attraction. Whereas a guy will look for looks first, then personality or intelligence, then money or status, women will look at all of these things in concurrence. For men who are essentially visual in nature, and look at these factors in order, this appears as a downgrading to the value of apperance.
I got a dog and named him "Stay". Now, I go "Come here, Stay!". After a while, the dog went insane and wouldn't move at all.
[ Parent ]

He also knows more languages than you. (none / 1) (#61)
by durdee on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 06:00:32 AM EST


---
Fact: You have no insight whatsoever into my motivations, personality, or thought process.
[ Parent ]
Probably not, actually. (none / 1) (#69)
by tetsuwan on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 09:54:25 AM EST


Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

Oh gee (1.50 / 2) (#70)
by durdee on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 10:21:58 AM EST


---
Fact: You have no insight whatsoever into my motivations, personality, or thought process.
[ Parent ]
Yeah, but your photobucket nick... (none / 0) (#247)
by joto on Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 07:34:33 AM EST

..."nynorskboi", it doesn't make sense for anyone from Faroe Islands, or Denmark, or UK, or USA. Since you've already announced your position in the Nynorsk vs Bokml debate, I can only assume that you must be from Vestlandet in Norway. Either that, or the pictures are of somebody else.

[ Parent ]
Have you read Glamorama? (2.00 / 3) (#49)
by driptray on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 10:28:05 PM EST

by Bret Easton Ellis?

If not, I'd recommend it.
--
We brought the disasters. The alcohol. We committed the murders. - Paul Keating

not yet (none / 1) (#50)
by oceanbourne on Mon Nov 28, 2005 at 10:36:23 PM EST

No I've not, but heard it's good. I will check it out.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
+1FP - excellent and very different (2.75 / 4) (#54)
by nlscb on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 02:23:01 AM EST

This is why I read K5.

What's your nationality? It's not clear from the article. Your english is technically excellent but doesn't "sound" quite right? I'm guessing Scanadanavian - maybe Danish - that vicar comment in particular.

Did you only shoot in the States, or did you shoot overseas as well? Was everywhere "the same" or did local color come through?

Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange

IAWTP (NT) (3.00 / 2) (#68)
by Enlarged to Show Texture on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 09:30:51 AM EST

november tango


"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." -- Isaac Asimov
[ Parent ]
teh ghey (1.08 / 12) (#64)
by tkatchevzombie on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 08:02:39 AM EST



no shiiiiit *NT* (1.50 / 2) (#129)
by Ravear on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 06:42:04 AM EST



[ Parent ]
+1FP (2.40 / 5) (#65)
by stuaart on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 08:24:14 AM EST

Although this article has confirmed to me again that modelling is utterly removed from the real world and non-ironically cultivates complete unreality, it is interesting nevertheless, and relatively well-written.

Like most advertising, I find such imagery undesirable. I do not wish to view adverts constantly, and neither do I wish to view models constantly. It is boring, primarily.

Linkwhore: [Hidden stories.] Baldrtainment: Corporate concubines and Baldrson: An Introspective


good stuff (2.00 / 3) (#80)
by skewedtree on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 01:35:59 PM EST

Thanks for writing this, it was very interesting to get your view of the whole thing. However, I would have preferred that you leave your photos out. They don't add much and I suspect there is an ego trip involved.


simply view every single person you "meet" online as the comic book guy from the simpsons. it makes everything easier. - zenofchai


no ego trip (none / 1) (#82)
by oceanbourne on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 01:49:36 PM EST

Given comments on a previous article I posted here, it seemed that people consider hyperlinks and visuals important to articles on Kuro5hin.org. Since I was writing about modeling, I felt I would get a lot of flack if I didn't post some photos. It was difficult though to find photos that I held clear copyright to (even of myself) because the copyright issues surrounding this type of professional photography are Byzantine, to say the least. For example, I would love to have the swimwear ad I mentioned posted but because it was a print ad and not on the net alredy, I cannot legally post it as I don't have the copyright (which by now would reside with the client).


But again, to post an article concerning any sort of photography without offering examples would probably incite a vile response from some readers, no?
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

The photos were great, they filled out the article (1.50 / 2) (#183)
by padda on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 01:53:31 AM EST

and it was already credible but, they clinched it. It also made clear what kind of modelling you were talking about.

- Thanks.

[ Parent ]

I didn't see any photos (3.00 / 3) (#186)
by slaida1 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:41:31 AM EST

Kuroziing doesn't support pictures

Oh you meant the links?? Do you usually click all the links in stories or this time only? Do you find male models interesting? Are these questions bothering you?

Hehe

[ Parent ]

Photos (none / 1) (#194)
by ParetoJ on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 03:42:00 PM EST

Photos seem to be a good idea. A lot of articles don't have photos though which is too bad, this is the internet so it's easy to add media to an article.

Newsforge is 'good' for photos but even then only 1 / 20 articles has them.

[ Parent ]

explicatus (3.00 / 7) (#81)
by oceanbourne on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 01:39:58 PM EST

I would like to thank those who voted (for whatever their reasons) this article up. In addition, I want to reply to the comments about modeling and so-called vacant and worthless nature of this industry:


It should be rather apparent to anyone who read this article that it is not a PR piece for the modeling industry. Indeed, once some people I know in the industry read it, I expect all manner of rude comments from them for some of the things I wrote. That said, modeling is part of a much larger industry : advertising. If you have a problem with the body images or sexualization or anything else that you are trying to blame on models you really need to take those complaints up with Madison Avenue and not models.


Most people who have any sort of career in modeling are also interested in acting and see it as a means of making money and often getting into the profession of stage or screen acting. Unlike beauty contests, modeling fills a need in the overall dynamic of advertising : it is not just a mechanism for pretty people to boost their egos. Indeed, most models feel they are attractive but do not have any more of an ego about it than most anyone else. They do what they do because it is fun. Any sense of ego, as is the case with most actors, is not about looks but about the feeling of being on stage or before the camera and the related feeling of being part of something that is fantasy manifest as reality.


To me, one of the greatest issues germane to the modeling profession is the broader sociocultural construction in contemporary society of models, not what actually happens in the industry but how the mainstream media has treated the industry. (An irony, given that modeling can be viewed as a service industry to the broader media.)


A lot of people have greeted this work with cynicism and I understand that is part of the atmosphere here : I only wish it wasn't. I have read some really amazing articles on this site and I could very much enjoy these but do without the trolling and childish comments. When someone dares call me vapid or suggests an article like this one is about a culturally unimportant topic but also resorts to personal attacks only appropriate to a middle school's back field, it is simply sad.
It's like that: Oceanbourne

Thanks for writing... (3.00 / 3) (#83)
by superdiva on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 01:55:19 PM EST

Please keep writing for K5; your contributions will be appreciated.  

As far as the as the immaturity, that comes with the terrority for any community forum, doubly so for K5.  Localroger still gets all kinds of insults, but that never stopped his stories from making to FP.  Take the good with the bad.  

I look forward to reading your next story.
_____________________________________________

"replace 'cuddle' with 'doggystyle so hard you see stars' and let me know if that works better." [ Parent ]

You know (3.00 / 2) (#85)
by The Diary Section on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 02:10:42 PM EST

you're talking to Kurobots about modelling. Amongst that group I'd say there is a high chance you are talking to people who have a problem with how they look (or other people have a problem with how they look perhaps). Trust me on this because I almost fired off a mean comment intially. You're giving a talk about abatoir management to a bunch of turkeys a week before Christmas, so they are going to be unkind. Thats the problem, although for myself I found the article well written and really interesting (you are definitely right about the flip-flops, I'd never noticed before). One thing I thought about when reading btw, you mention advertising as heterosexually minded, as a straight guy I have to tell you, we're not fooled for a millisecond, maybe it works on women, I'm not sure but I wish advertisers would figure this out because its actually quite alienating and just weird I guess.
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
[ Parent ]
thanks (none / 1) (#87)
by oceanbourne on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 02:24:25 PM EST

Thank you.


It's a stereotype that still exists that people who work with computers are nerds and fugly, but I knew a number of people in the IT industry (both male and female) who are very attractive, too. If anything, I would like to see the whole computer geek stereotype shattered as much as I would like to see the dumb blond stereotype also shattered.


We need to start seeing people as people, and leave it at that.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

"Stereotype shattering" is so 1990s $ (3.00 / 2) (#95)
by nate s on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 03:17:38 PM EST



[ Parent ]
You win? (3.00 / 5) (#99)
by NotALamer on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 06:21:11 PM EST

Calling something so <insert previous decade> is so <insert previous decade>.

[ Parent ]
True, but... (3.00 / 2) (#100)
by nate s on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 06:52:51 PM EST

...I really don't recall hearing much about shattering stereotypes in the last five years. I think stereotyping was one of those big PC issues of the late 1990s, so I was only being halfway facetious with that comment.

[ Parent ]
Yeah (3.00 / 5) (#102)
by NotALamer on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 06:57:40 PM EST

I guess it doesn't sell enough tv ad time any more.

[ Parent ]
Its not the stereotype I'm talking about (3.00 / 2) (#231)
by The Diary Section on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 04:10:24 AM EST

I have a pretty good idea what some of your harshest critics have written in the past. Its not pretty and neither are they. I question why you would have a problem with the stereotype though; are you saying that there is something wrong with "Fugly" people looking like they do? You won some sort of genetic crapshoot bucky, its nothing you did so get off your high horse. I'm very troubled by the thought process behind that statement anyway.
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
[ Parent ]
omfg gag on a spoon already (and tea) (1.50 / 2) (#97)
by actmodern on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 04:13:24 PM EST



--
LilDebbie challenge: produce the water sports scene from bable or stfu. It does not exist.
[ Parent ]
What's with (and tea)? $ (none / 1) (#101)
by nate s on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 06:54:16 PM EST



[ Parent ]
I modeled for a few years (3.00 / 3) (#98)
by mrcsparker on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 05:37:03 PM EST

and I never really gave it as much thought as you.  I saw it as a way to make extra money and occasionally meet very good looking girls.

It gave me college money, but continuing afterwards would have been too much of a commitment.

[ Parent ]

right... (1.42 / 7) (#110)
by bankind on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 10:40:14 PM EST

They do what they do because it is fun.

So says the pedophile.

Perhaps you should just take accountability for your own actions rather than blaming those suits on Madison Ave. Otherwise, you ARE the vapid narcissist more concerned with having fun and money than the social good.

Congratulations, you're normal and suck.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

silliness (3.00 / 2) (#112)
by oceanbourne on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 10:47:09 PM EST

I am very concerned with the social good. I donate time and money to a variety of causes and have been since I was in high school. But what is wrong with liking clothing and dancing and going out and travel and all the things that went with being a model? If you're a Trappist monk or otherwise committed to a spartan life where all you do is give back to the less-fortunate feel free to lecture me, but if you're spending your money on computers, cars, clothing, travel or anything else of the like, you can't so much talk.


Plus, recall that I was a model while very young. Duh. What kid doesn't want to have a career like that on a temporal basis?
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

then I'll feel free to lecture you = (none / 1) (#113)
by bankind on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 11:03:50 PM EST


"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

That was a fascinating article (2.33 / 3) (#142)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 08:14:02 AM EST

and this is a good response to those who are jealous or feel their masculinity is threatened by the fact that a male model shared his experiences with k5. Ignore them. I'd have voted this article up if I'd seen it in time.

I admit I'm surprised that you get accusations of vapidity and stupidity because you worked as a model. I often assumed it was largely women instead who would get this kind of abuse for working as models.

I once asked a very beautiful actress friend of mine, who has been approached by model agencies, whether she realised how gorgeous she was. She shrugged and said "There are particular measurements and facial alignments that are fashionable, and I have them. But beauty is something else altogether." She has a hell of a time being taken seriously. Nobody could look good, or work in a field where one is required to look good, and be intelligent or even - perish the thought - a nice person at the same time, of course.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

I dated a model once. (1.63 / 19) (#92)
by greengrass on Tue Nov 29, 2005 at 02:54:54 PM EST

She wasn't a pro, but she was beautiful. The only thing that I couldn't stand about her was that she would say the dumbest goddamn things. Like "Don't come in my mouth" and "It isn't supposed to go in my ass".

you know... (none / 1) (#245)
by user 956 on Wed Dec 28, 2005 at 06:12:57 AM EST

The only thing that I couldn't stand about her was that she would say the dumbest goddamn things. Like "Don't come in my mouth" and "It isn't supposed to go in my ass".

you know... it's funny because it's true.
---

Top Chuck Norris Facts.

(lazy sunday)
[ Parent ]
I thought male models scewed older (none / 1) (#115)
by nlscb on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 01:08:03 AM EST

Admittedly, this is from just one data point.

In 1997, while I was studying Danish in Copenhagen, I met a half-Danish half-Japanese Canadian who was also learning Danish. This guy looked literaly looked like and was built like the brown haired guy from Street Fighter II. While he was there, he was doing modelling jobs for extra cash while I was a paper-boy (bastard). We were both 21, so I asked him if he had trouble with his age like female models, who seem to be washed up if they don't do their first sexy underwear ad by age 11. He said he did - everyone complained he was too young.

Was he on crack, or are there different "classes" of models for different age groups? In your case, you said that you had to give it up by around the same age.

As well, he said the ideal height for a male model was 6'1" to 6'2". Is this also the case?

Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange

Hann fr byr, i bar, og havn, i rr (2.50 / 2) (#116)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 01:24:46 AM EST

You studied dansk in København? Sweet!


First, you won't get the best modeling jobs in København . . . alas, such is true. That may have been part of his problem. Also, it depends on the look he was trying to market vs. what they were looking for at the time. Asians tend to look young so . . .


6'1" to 6'2" is indeed the ideal male model height because this is the size man (in general) most haute couture lines make their clothing for. Also, it's the size man they tend to think is the "ideal".


I stopped modeling not because I felt like I had to or was not getting enough work but because I had to travel too much and was trying to be a hardworking college student at the same time. Not to brag (I know someone will say I am but whatever) but I still look like I am around 20 and now . . . let's just say I am a fair bit older than all that. In general, models are around 18-22 though . . . some brands like Brooks Brothers and J Crew do use a good smathering of various ages however.

It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

So they're not too many 35 year old models? (2.50 / 2) (#117)
by nlscb on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 01:58:47 AM EST

Hmmm. It's always hard to tell in the magazines. Flipping through Maxim, I have trouble believing some of the male models are younger than 25, and those are not even the alcohol ads.

Unskyld, min dansk er ikke so godt end mere. Hvad har du scrive pa din subject. Det kan jeg ikke forstar.

Also, I know a couple of those characters are definitely not Danish. Iceland? Faroe Islands?

Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange
[ Parent ]

we put the old in norse, yo (none / 1) (#118)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 02:13:39 AM EST

Faroes, bro. Vágar.

You see more and more "older" models in magazines like Details and Men's Health because the guys who started reading in the mid 1990s are aging, I suppose. High fashion is still very youth-centric though. For "high fashion" read: Prada, TSE, Fendi . . . you know? That's where the money is.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

The beer companies pay badly? (none / 1) (#119)
by nlscb on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 02:43:33 AM EST

Huh, that I would never have thought of. I guess I would have figured it went

beer

hard liquor

smokes

soda

junk food

cars

Interesting - I would have figured guys like Prada/Armani were the cheapskates along the lines of media firms offering lousy wages and lousy unpaid internships since they were the "desired" positions.

Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange
[ Parent ]

it's a whole different ball game (3.00 / 3) (#121)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 03:20:44 AM EST

It's simple, dear.


Beer companies, et al, need guys who look . . . average . . . they don't need what Prada requires. Indeed, they'd rather not have it.

Couture requires models that will be recognised in their ads in a way that other products don't . . . the more cutting-edge magazines like Flaunt and Surface often photograph in a way that shows very little of a product in their shoots and the ads therein have followed this trend: it's about the model and you start seeing the same faces over a season. The aesthetic you see that's kinda grunge/low budget looking now all over the place was pioneered in places like these mags . . .
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

Why on earth... (2.50 / 2) (#132)
by skyknight on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 07:01:46 AM EST

would a modeling agency care about what languages you speak. That struck me as very odd. I can understand experience in things that will make you look more natural on film, e.g. having played soccer if you're doing a sports shoot, but clearly knowing French isn't something that's going to be captured by a photograph. Is it supposed to be correlated well with other stuff, e.g. understanding a culture in such a way as to make your shots appear more natural? Even then, it still strikes me as moderately bizarre and I can't see a compelling reason for it.

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
reasons (2.66 / 3) (#148)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 12:17:45 PM EST

Some shoots are done in other nations: if you're shooting in a Spanish-speaking country or in France, a knowledge of the language is a huge plus. Of course, at the lower and mid levels, international shoots are uncommon. But I think there is also the aspect of wanting, with young people, to apply as much of their talents as possible. Prior to college, those talents are pretty limited to things like sports, dance, and languages. People in marketing will market everything they can: if they had some kid who was a model and could also teach dogs to sing, that would be on the résumé, trust me.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
Interesting article. (none / 1) (#144)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 08:25:08 AM EST

Thank you for it. I'm sorry I didn't see it in time to vote it +1 FP. It was interesting to see the other side of those perfect polished snapshots intended to seduce us. Ignore the jealous losers who accuse you of dishonestly marketing falsehoods. Anyone who feels seriously conned when they find Lynx deodorant doesn't actually bring scores of scantily clad beauties spelling out words with their bodies is an idiot of the first order. And certainly ignore anyone who thinks beauty cannot exist with brains and depth at the same time. By that logic, if they consider themselves intelligent and deep, they must also be fugly.

My sister did a very little amount of modelling in her teens, actually. She never made a career of it like you - hell, she never even got a portfolio or signed to an agency - but she did get a brief moment on TV and appeared smiling on the cover of a girls' magazine, clutching a bunch of flowers. It's sweet and fresh.

I, on the other hand, got the topless modelling scout approach me on New Bond Street for European titles. Apparently, I am a German pervert's wet dream. Life is unfair.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.

thanks (3.00 / 2) (#150)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 12:37:05 PM EST

Thank you much. Yeah, I was expecting when I posted this that some people would comment on my being gay or on the vapid nature of modeling but I didn't expect the attacks to become a Sunday occupation for so many of these geeks. I guess it's easy for them to sit at their computers with a bag of Doritos and try to diss people . . . after years of that experience in reverse at school they must enjoy it.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
Ignore them. (2.00 / 2) (#161)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 05:20:27 PM EST

Seriously, they are only jealous and feel threatened because there's a male model among us. If they can't see past your career and your looks to the very interesting and well-written experiences you have to share with us, it doesn't take a genius to see who the shallow, vapid ones really are.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

a bag of doritos? (none / 1) (#220)
by Lemon Juice on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 11:09:04 PM EST

I'm offended.

[ Parent ]
Attacks as a sunday occupation (2.00 / 2) (#229)
by arthas on Sun Dec 04, 2005 at 08:45:55 PM EST

Yes... It is a sad thing that people seem to have nothing better to do than to diss others. This seems to be actually quite common behavior in some forums (e.g. slashdot.org).

I, for one, think this is one of the most intriguing articles I have read here. It describes a life that is so unlike anything I have experienced. And naturally the pictures were great as well...



[ Parent ]
You know. . . (2.50 / 2) (#237)
by thankyougustad on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 06:56:17 PM EST

they buy bags of dorritos because of the modeling industry, right?

No no thanks no
Je n'aime que le bourbon
no no thanks no
c'est une affaire de got.

[ Parent ]
Pics of your sister? (none / 1) (#158)
by bighappyface on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 04:58:13 PM EST



[ Parent ]
She'd kill me. (none / 1) (#160)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 05:17:17 PM EST

I do have a great one on my phone of her balancing a spoon on her nose, but she'd kill me.

I will tell you, though, that she really is a knockout. I'm not just saying that because she's my sister. She really is breathtaking.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Cocktease. (3.00 / 3) (#199)
by bighappyface on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 02:09:09 AM EST



[ Parent ]
PLZPSTPIXORSTFUKTHX (3.00 / 2) (#243)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 07:08:37 PM EST



[ Parent ]
I have a comment to make (2.00 / 2) (#236)
by thankyougustad on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 06:55:11 PM EST

Anyone who feels seriously conned when they find Lynx deodorant doesn't actually bring scores of scantily clad beauties spelling out words with their bodies is an idiot of the first order. And certainly ignore anyone who thinks beauty cannot exist with brains and depth at the same time. By that logic, if they consider themselves intelligent and deep, they must also be fugly.

I haven't read most of the comments on this page, I stopped at yours to comment. I understand exactly what you mean by what you are saying here. I'm guessing that it's a reaction to a certain amount of vitriol that has been thrown by people attacking the modeling industry. I'm not sure you offer a valid defense (or defence, if you like) here. First of all, I don't think anyone really feels conned when babes don't etc etc because the wore product X. Advertising doesn't work that way, anyway. It is meant to play up to subconscious fears and desires. If someone feels more attractive when bying a product, even if it doesn't register, than the company has done it's job.

This is an example of disgusting commercialism. Cosmetic industries spends billions of dollars to make stupid western girls feel fat and ugly, so that they will spend their dollars (or pounds, if you like) in a vain (ha) effort to improve themselves physically. It is an incredable waste of money and worktime.

I am someone who is considered to on the good side of the bellcurve in both intelligence and 'looks' by people I know. Not really far, but on the good side. I don't take issue with taking pride in ones body, after all it goes part and parcel with the brain, but for me what is nasty about it is how it plays on peoples fears and superficial inadequicies. My girlfriend doesn't wear makeup, which is part of why I'm attracted to her. I find the odours and tastes (of lipgloss) to be a real put off. For whatever reason that's how it is for me. This may be why I have a particular distate for the fashion industry, and in a larger way the entire industry of selling celebrities (magazines and makeup, especially) and good looks.

You urge the author to ignore the people who accuse him of selling falsehoods. I also urge him to do he same, because it doesn't matter. However, he was marketing falsehoods. Billions of dollars are spent on this every years. Billions of work hours are wasted in the same, ultimately harmful pursuit. Our culture's tendency to over medicate rides on all of these falsehoods. We, as a society, eat terribly, are lonely, stupid, and ignorant. The vast majority of us (myself included) waste our time on stupid projects, and obscure the natural beauty of the world. I would like to imagine a world where people devoted their time to understanding themselves as they are, the people around them as they are, and the world as it is. The pulsing tide of money is against me, however.

Well, that was longer and a lot more rambling than I wanted. The new beaujolais is here, though.

No no thanks no
Je n'aime que le bourbon
no no thanks no
c'est une affaire de got.

[ Parent ]

What About Smoking? (1.66 / 3) (#154)
by ewhac on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 02:30:36 PM EST

The stereotype is that nearly all models are smokers. What is the actual incidence of smoking among models?

Schwab
---
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions. Priest, Internet Oracle.

smoking (2.50 / 2) (#169)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 07:39:10 PM EST

I have never smoked in my life. I know plenty of models who do smoke and plenty others who don't and some who are absolute health nuts about everything . . . some who are vegans, and so on. I cannot offer a  true estimate of how many smoke because I have not done a scientific study of it . . . we can assume there are co-factors germane to smoking I would skew from memory, such as the fact that since I don't smoke I might not have been around others during smoke breaks or that European models smoke more or less or whatever . . .
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
Best article in a long time .. (none / 1) (#155)
by UnPlusUnEgalDeux on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 03:55:04 PM EST

So would you estimate the tops to bottoms ratio in the industry to be non-representative of society in general?

nevermind (none / 1) (#162)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 06:33:20 PM EST

I don't believe in "tops and bottoms" if you mean sexually . . . whatever ppl, str8 or gay, do with each other and their boy parts or girl parts is not demonstrative of their larger roles in society.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
But it's all linked.. (2.50 / 2) (#167)
by UnPlusUnEgalDeux on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 07:08:03 PM EST

 .. each actions we performed defines us. The more we know about the actions and toughts of everyone who doesn't dare voice his or her opinion in public, the more accurately we can assess the difference between the mainstream view of how a society is and reality. Form there we can apply an appropriate level of skepticism about everything else we didn't learn from first hand experience.

[ Parent ]
not linked (none / 1) (#168)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 07:36:05 PM EST

First, even if what you are saying is true, you'd need a sample of the overall population of models that would not be obtained through even insider information or experience: you'd confound your data that way. You'd need an open-ended survey and a decent sample to really get anywhere.


Second, what difference does it make? I don't like anal sex, period. On either side of the coin. Not all gay men do: when a gay man asks another if he's a top or bottom he's delimiting that person to a sexual desire and stereotypes of what goes with that approach to desire. Please read some Judith Butler or Cixous before assuming everything is so one-sided about being gay. All being gay means is that I like other men. Period.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

If you would have known I was gay before replying (none / 1) (#172)
by UnPlusUnEgalDeux on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 09:27:16 PM EST

..would you have said the same thing? As for the statiscal value of this information, a qualitative approach to the question is very valuable considering a unbiased survey of anything gay-related is unfortunately impossible for the moment.

[ Parent ]
ghey (none / 1) (#173)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 09:35:47 PM EST

Whether your gay or straight, yeah, my reply is the same. I am not insulted or anything: nothing personal but I am sick of ppl (gay guys) saying any of the following to me:


Hey, are you a top or bottom?
(Sorry, but I don't want to be classified by what I like to do with my dick, bro.)


OMG, you're soooo hawt!!!
(Ummm . . . thanks, I guess)


OMG, is it true you dated __?
(Like I would answer that? Like it's anyone's business?)


I hate the gossipy nature of gay life (in SF and Miami at least . . . maybe it's not as bad where you live) and I really am not so much into anal . . . just never have been, I guess.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

BTW (none / 1) (#175)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 10:11:02 PM EST

I didn't mean to sound as harsh as I did . . . you DO ask an interesting question and thanks for saying you liked the article. I just get tired of the whole "top or bottom" deal all the time. Or worse, from str8 ppl, "are you the woman in the relationship?" because I am very much all about equality . . . for everyone. But thank you for your comments, truly.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
I hope you don't answer politely (none / 1) (#178)
by UnPlusUnEgalDeux on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 10:57:41 PM EST

to those who would dare ask you such a question. A firm "There's no woman, that's the point!" followed by a gender approriate derogatory name would seem appropriate. But then again, insults aren't always a possible course of action and, unfortunately, not always the best way to change someone's mind.

[ Parent ]
Around here.. (none / 1) (#176)
by UnPlusUnEgalDeux on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 10:12:45 PM EST

... asking it is so representative of gay stereotypes that it's considered a joke unless specified otherwise.

  As for the gossipy nature of the "gay subculture" , there's plenty of gay guys outside those circles that despise the image those stereotyped gays give to the outisde world, while conveniently forgetting that without those communities who fought for gay rights, we'd all have girlfriends and we'd all be miserable.

[ Parent ]

cultural differences (none / 1) (#177)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 10:30:13 PM EST

You are very right on all counts there: with me, it's also a matter of not joking around much and treating stuff very logically . . . plus a matter of privacy in certain matters . . . even though I grew up in Florida, I am very very Nordic still and have the Nordic outlook towards privacy . . . we have a concept we call Janteloven which is more or less that you are humble and never untoward and also sincere and serious. It's hard to explain, perhaps, but it's not uncommon to say, know someone for twenty years before you even hear they have a sister or something like that.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
Heh. (3.00 / 2) (#227)
by livus on Sat Dec 03, 2005 at 09:43:38 PM EST

"Please read some Judith Butler" is at least as bad/insulting as anything any of these kurons has said to you here.

I love it!

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

Fascinating post. (none / 1) (#156)
by eightants on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 04:44:11 PM EST

That's a fascinating post, thanks for writing it up. I am a little bit curious though. You mentioned that you ended up doing something related to computers/engineering. How did that mix with modeling? Most computer people are not very social. I myself am at best...reserved. It's hard for me to imagine getting up from behind a desk and going somewhere with tons of people. How did that work for you?

interesting (none / 1) (#164)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 06:47:35 PM EST

I worked as a LAN admin in college because I was qualified for that position and it was open . . . now I am in critical theory and linguistics (both human and computer languages). I think a lot of people who work with computers, and traditionally a  lot of engineers, period, are introverted but that doesn't mean that they are all nerds at all. Some are not even that introverted. We also tend to be logical, literal people . . . hence my responses to people who had rather rude comments and profane humour about this article: I believe in being serious most of the time.


That said, in my case, I am outgoing to the point of being hyper. If anything, I come across (so I am told often) in person as being much younger than I am . . . someone once whom I worked with assumed I was someone's son visiting the office because she thought I was about 16! I look and behave young, but that doesn't mean I cannot provide valid contributions. I think many in our field are like this: we are detail-oriented people. But you'd be surprised how model and especially photographers and stylists must be very detail-oriented. These are arts, people, you must understand and they are not dumb by any means: if they had not become pro photographers they might have been art history professors, you know. I think in general most people give stereotypes too much credit and indeed, delimit their own capacities due to the limits they apply to others.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

Did you ever have to give another man a blow job? (2.00 / 6) (#159)
by bighappyface on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 04:59:02 PM EST

To get a job?

no (2.33 / 3) (#163)
by oceanbourne on Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 06:35:24 PM EST

No. And any job predicated on sexual favours is no job worth having . . . in any industry. I can't be borrowed and simply won't be bought . . . there are lines I will not cross.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
Those questions aren't meant seriously - (2.25 / 4) (#182)
by padda on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 01:41:17 AM EST

the asking is the point, just to give offense if at all possible. Just so you understand K5.

[ Parent ]
why? (none / 1) (#184)
by oceanbourne on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 01:54:11 AM EST

But why not use your ability to comment to actually ask worthwhile stuff? Why not live your life in a way that's dynamic and brings gain instead of cynicism?
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
Because (2.80 / 5) (#188)
by HollyHopDrive on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 09:50:58 AM EST

it's much easier to aim low and miss anyway by going for the lowest common denomination. These guys already feel intellectually superior to you simply by virtue of being less good-looking, so they can just throw accusations of homosexuality at you and then congratulate themselves for their great wit.

Sgt York once put it very well to some idiot who was running around making as many offensive comments as he could at the lowest common denomination. He said something like, "You've succeeded in trolling in as much as you've got responses, but there's really nothing to be proud of there. It's like you taped yourself to a person for an entire day and then marvelled at your amazing ability to piss them off."

I actually quite like the verbal jousting, especially with the crappy trolls, because they are the quickest to get as wound up and angry as they're trying to make you. But if it's not your scene, simply ignore them. They really are just jealous.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

The funny part... (2.66 / 3) (#198)
by bighappyface on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 02:01:58 AM EST

...is how you guys read so much into it.

When all I really wanted to know is whether or not male models DID have to give sexual favors in the industry.

*yawn*

But I guess the debate and groundless assumption route was more fun for all involved.

[ Parent ]

I don't believe you. (3.00 / 2) (#201)
by HollyHopDrive on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 08:17:07 AM EST

Sorry, but I don't.

Actually, I tell a lie. I'm not sorry at all.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Jesus Christ... (none / 1) (#202)
by bighappyface on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 09:21:58 AM EST

...it was a fucking joke. Get a grip.

This is what's called 'ribbing' someone, or 'taking the piss'.

[ Parent ]

Besides, I really wanted to know... (none / 1) (#208)
by bighappyface on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 10:13:24 AM EST

And now, thanks to him answering, I do.

So you two can both fuck off, since I got my answer.

Cunts.

[ Parent ]

no, again (none / 1) (#211)
by oceanbourne on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 01:03:54 PM EST

No, you didn't "really want to know" : you said it was "just a joke" then you said you were really curious if sexual favours are part of this business. The latter question I answered when you first asked it. So it was either an honest (albeit rude) question or a joke, but not both. You can't have it both ways.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]
Yes, yes it can be both... (3.00 / 2) (#213)
by bighappyface on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 03:26:49 PM EST



[ Parent ]
You seem (none / 1) (#233)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 05:52:36 AM EST

unduly bothered that, when ribbing someone, you get a bit of ribbing in response. Exactly why was your comment funny, and mine not?


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

You're such a cunt I can't believe it... (1.50 / 2) (#209)
by bighappyface on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 10:15:48 AM EST

...how the fuck do you know what I meant by a simple comment? You don't, you troll.

[ Parent ]
It's pattern recognition. (3.00 / 2) (#232)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 05:51:30 AM EST

You aren't usually the most highbrow of people and when you ask someone if he gives blowjobs instead of a polite though curious inquiry as to whether models ever get jobs through favours, I make an inference.

No need to be so defensive. Why do you care that I don't believe you?


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

because morality is objective, dufus (none / 1) (#235)
by thankyougustad on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 06:40:08 PM EST

'do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.' Everyone gets out of life having experienced in a unique way. Why ask questions about what others do, especially with critical subtexts?

No no thanks no
Je n'aime que le bourbon
no no thanks no
c'est une affaire de got.

[ Parent ]
2worlds collide.. naw just passing by (2.00 / 2) (#187)
by slaida1 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 08:19:41 AM EST

Apart from wondering why cts manages to draw tens of comments with only few lines, I was thinking how introverts/extroverts fit modelling business? Are most models extroverts to the extreme or mixed?

I can't picture myself in any parties (except LAN parties of course) without the constant need to go home sleep or play some more WoW. How where why do you have all the energy to do all that stuff? Damnit even with coffee and energy drinks it feels impossible to stay sharp with lots of people around.

the inner child (2.33 / 3) (#190)
by oceanbourne on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 12:20:06 PM EST

I don't quite understand your comment except that I have always been very active. I love mnt biking, soccer, running, swimming, skateboarding . . . stuff like that . . . again, I don't want to support the whole concept that "computer ppl" are nerds and tend to be overweight and less-active, but if you're not active to start with and in good shape you'll have less energy. My boss when I was a LAN admin was a trim guy who rode a motorcycle and liked to go snowboarding himself. There are plenty of ppl like us out there. But if you're sitting around playing games or watching TV (I love GuildWars, but I ride my mnt bike about 20 miles every other day too) and drinking coffee all the time you'll not be in the best of health . . . no matter your profession. I saw a doctor at the hospital one day who was as big as a house and you've got to wonder how someone in health care ever gets in such a sad state.

As far as being introverted, no I tend to be very outgoing as is probably apparent through my comments here. I tend to be upbeat and want to like ppl and for them to like me. I think more ppl should be like that: we all start out pretty much that way as kids, after all, it's only as teens and adult that we learn cynicism and such. Look at kindergartners anywhere . . . they like doing stuff . . . adults need to be mroe that way.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

Very Interesting (3.00 / 2) (#192)
by ParetoJ on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 03:29:48 PM EST

I thought this was a very interesting story. I liked the nudity picture, although it has only suggestive nudity, lol!

Are models allowed to do full frontal nudity (or pornography) and still get work as a model or when that line is crossed they cannot go back?

Hmmmm (none / 1) (#195)
by ParetoJ on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 03:54:29 PM EST

I'm asking if you know or not being a model, I'm not saying that you were in porno. Just a correction in case people didnt read the whole article.

I am mostly interested in that question because I notice that there are a lot of actors who find it hard to find jobs afterwards. I'm just surprised more don't go into porno, which is too bad really when people are forced to do work they don't necessarly want to do.

[ Parent ]

nudes & porn (3.00 / 3) (#196)
by oceanbourne on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 05:04:36 PM EST

For an actor who is somewhat known already, porn would be very hard to do . . . for male actors, nude scenes (esp full frontal nudity) is very uncommon in mainstream cinema. For most models who are not a household name (and really: how few are) porn would be easier to do, but don't expect your agency to get you the work or approve of it. Most people I knew who did porn contacted porn sites that had open calls for models and submitted a number of photos and thereby got the job. I also have a friend who is now finishing his MBA and has an undergrad degree in computer science who set up his own gay porn site that featured himself and his room-mates (all cute young men at a major American university) engaging in sex. When he got another job and went to grad school he shut the porn site down, but he'd already made quite a fortune off of his efforts.


I don't have a problem with full-frontal nudity as long as it's artists and not porn. I've modeled for friends who were photographers and the shot used as an example here was a cropped version of one that's more revealing. Given the seventh-grade sense of humour that many on this site have, I wasn't about to give these nerds a full-frontal of myself to do whatever they wanted with in Photoshop.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

quote (none / 1) (#226)
by tetsuwan on Sat Dec 03, 2005 at 05:44:42 PM EST

I wasn't about to give these nerds a full-frontal of myself to do whatever they wanted with in Photoshop.

Good decision.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

You sound a lot like Quinn from Daria. (2.50 / 2) (#203)
by Russell Dovey on Fri Dec 02, 2005 at 10:00:32 AM EST

Just sayin'.

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan

Nice read! (3.00 / 3) (#234)
by Trystan on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 06:49:25 AM EST

I enjoyed the article.  Well written, well linked, informative, and not aiming to force a point down our throats so much as inform us about a side of life many of us will never see.

(Disclaimer:  I am a, ah, "fat white unattractive straight man."  I believe my comments are positive, unlike the majority of others here, but if they're not feel free to attribute it to my appearance or sexuality. :))

1.  While reading your article I kept thinking back to Zoolander, the movie.  It was one of the stupidest, most ignorant movies I've ever seen - and while logically I know that it doesn't represent models as a whole, I can't help but draw comparisons either.  Does the media you work(ed) for intentionally propagate the image of models in a negative way?

2.  As an Information Technology professional I'll assume you've run into your fair share of folks who believe that computers "are simple and easy."  Those same folks who don't understand that it takes hours for the computer to do certain things, or that uninterrupted time is needed to develop a solution to a particularly thorny development problem.  There seems to be a belief that if an individual doesn't understand something, it is considered "easy."  As Depeche Mode said, "Now I'm not looking for absolution; forgiveness for the things I do; but before you come to any conclusions; try walking in my shoes; you'll stumble in my footsteps."

The behind the scenes look at modelling does well to dispel that belief.  The insane rush to get things done on someone else's timetable, the necessary requirement to give up all bodily privacy, the heat from the lamps, the make up... these are not things I think about when I look at a photograph or advertisement.

3.  To those who are playing upon stereotypes or sexuality as insults:  Frankly, as someone who's been working full-time to provide for myself since I was 15, I am tired of sexuality or looks being a factor.  If someone can be worked with (i.e. personality) and they can do their job and do it well - screw any other criteria you've managed to drudge up from your middle school years.  This applies to women as well as men, ugly as well as beautiful.  I won't lie - I wholeheartedly enjoy looking at beautiful women.  

When the hammer comes down, and I have to get my job done, I don't have time to stare at her butt or breasts.  I don't have time to wonder whether the other network administrator is gay and looking down my pants.  I don't have time and I don't care.  I have a job to do and childish behavior will not help get it done any sooner.

(Anyway, I believe the most beautiful part of the human body are the eyes. ;p)

-----
http://www.schkerke.com

thanks (none / 1) (#238)
by oceanbourne on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 10:13:44 PM EST

Thank you for your kind words.

I have never seen the movie Zoolander (I don't watch many movies and don't watch TV at all really) so I cannot comment on that.

However, I feel the broader "media" (meaning mainly mainstream Hollywood) tries to cater to preset American expectations in general. If we a megagroup think models are all dumb, Asians are smart and play the violin, and women are always sexy even when rocket scientists in James Bond films, then such is what we'll get in our movies.
It's like that: Oceanbourne
[ Parent ]

So ert t froyingur? (none / 0) (#246)
by bui on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 08:46:39 AM EST

Haldi ikki har var nakað konklusivt svar..

Days of the New Flesh: My Experience as a Model | 246 comments (217 topical, 29 editorial, 0 hidden)
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