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[P]
The Bridge, a Documentary Film by Eric Steel

By Calalily in Media
Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 01:52:41 AM EST
Tags: Suicide (all tags)

One night while channel surfing, I happened upon the odylic movie "The Bridge" on IFC. I tried to change the channel but was mesmerized and unable to look away. The movie is a hauntingly, beautiful tale of suicide at the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, California.


Those unaware on and below the bridge were surreptitiously filmed, along with actual footage of people jumping to their deaths. Using multiple telescopic lens cameras in varied positions around the bridge, the crew filmed during all the daylight hours for an entire year (2004). Eric Steel intertwines the visual beauty of the bridge, a haunting melody, whispering fog, and rhythmic ocean waves along side penitent interviews and the astonishing jump footage.

People are also filmed in seemingly salutary circumstances of kite-boarding, boating, fishing, and sight-seeing, all while people are jumping to their deaths. The crew did intervene where possible, calling the bridge authorities to rescue those appearing as if they would jump.

The people left behind were interviewed and include witnesses, families, and friends. There were also interviews with one survivor and others who attempted to jump but who were "saved".  The families' and friends' pain and confusion were revealed while they searched their hearts and souls for the answers; but during the course of the interviews they ultimately revealed that they knew and understood the "why". They were not told prior to or during the interview that their loved ones' jumps were filmed. They were told sometime later and watched the film before its release. Mr. Steel comments in various interviews that the families were glad the film was made and they were able to participate in it.

It appears, from many blog comments on the movies' website, that one jumper in particular, 34-year-old Eugene (Gene) Sprague, inspires comments by many who see the film. He has on a black leather jacket and has very long, straight, dark hair blown about by the wind, as he strolls back and forth on the bridge like any other tourist. His friends tell his heart wrenching life story, intertwined with breathtaking bridge images. At the end of the film, he appears to be sitting nonchalantly on the bridge, then suddenly stands up, and throws himself backwards off the bridge.

Watching this movie may foster understanding of the quiet desperation of lives unfulfilled. It may also help people to recognize those who may need interventions. One of the jumpers' friends relates how "He" always talked about killing himself for years, and she just started to ignore and blow-off the comments. Her agonizing feelings of guilt and deep sadness were exposed when she hung her head and tears slowly fell down her cheeks. Another interviewee for a different jumper plaintively stated, if only he had waited one more day, he would have gotten the message about the manager's job he had wanted.

The saddest stories told for me, were the parents who knew how the adult-child felt (Philip Manikow), but didn't know how to reach out or offer help. The one survivor interviewed, Kevin Hines, (from a jump in 2000) was a bipolar young adult who recounts his spiral downwards into the depths of mental illness; his last thought after he jumped was that he didn't want to die. His father was also interviewed and recounted his helplessness in being unable to aid his mentally ill son. He and his father later became advocates for mental health awareness and for a suicide fence on the bridge.

The movie is not sanctimonious or judgmental but rather a melancholic depiction of suicide. Steel's ultimate goal, as stated in interviews and news releases, is to have a suicide fence installed to help stop the suicides or at least reduce them. He captured 23 out of 24 suicides that occurred the year he filmed (2004). Six are portrayed in the movie.

The movie was released on DVD July 2007, and according to the blogs, is available through Netflix. For a brief glimpse of the film, go to The movie The Bridge  This next site is an interview with Steel that explores his thought processes and what it took to make the film. Steel Interview






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Related Links
o The movie The Bridge
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The Bridge, a Documentary Film by Eric Steel | 204 comments (195 topical, 9 editorial, 3 hidden)
This is a resubmit... (none / 1) (#1)
by Calalily on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 01:05:06 PM EST

...I took the earlier suggestions and incorporated here. I would like this to be in section, rather than FP if you approve. Thanks for all your previous comments on this story.
It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.(Unknown)
I don't know which one is more despicable (2.00 / 2) (#2)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 01:18:01 PM EST

  • The fact that these people are profiteering from someone else's self-inflicted death *, or
  • suicide

  • and any statements of "yeah we want to build a suicide fence, man" are moot. Unless the film makers are giving out all proceeds to appropriate charities with no connection to themselves, this is profiteering.

--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


Auto-messup wins it /nt (none / 0) (#3)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 01:18:43 PM EST


--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
Why don't you give all your money to charity? (none / 1) (#9)
by bottlefucker on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 03:25:43 PM EST

If you don't, you're just "profiteering". Twit.


[ Parent ]
IGTT 6/10 (none / 0) (#34)
by Josh Smith II on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 07:47:02 PM EST

MMM is a sincere idiot at times, but you're the real idiot this time. He's not saying "profiteering" is bad, he's saying making a profit off of someone's suicide under the guise of being a philanthropist is dishonest and lame.

Lurk moar and try harder.

-- Josh Smith recommends you take a hulver hike.
[ Parent ]

It's not my impression (none / 0) (#42)
by Elija on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 06:31:44 AM EST

that these people are pretending to be philanthropists or that they are primarily interested in making a profit. I would guess they are primarily interested in making a film, and they have to make a profit so they can buy food and stuff and maybe be allowed to make another film later. If they just wanted money they'd probably do something else instead, like work on a more mainstream film, for example.


[ Parent ]
-1 nobody is impressed you own a $10 thesaurus (2.20 / 10) (#5)
by Tex two point oh on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 01:57:36 PM EST

if your article contains more than two words that have "dictionary.com word of the day" as their top result on google then odds are your stupid article is puffed up and little substance kinda like kix cereal.

this effort reminds me of the steaming turds skyknight used to dump on the queue although this article uses 10 cent words while skyknight was only satisfied with $50 ones only a dozen people on the planet ever were aware of

You got a laugh out of me. (3.00 / 2) (#11)
by skyknight on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 04:01:04 PM EST

I read your first paragraph and thought to myself, "it didn't feel stilted at all". That made getting BAM'd with the second paragraph all the more riotous in its irony.

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
as I told the Husi d00ds about slozo (1.50 / 2) (#39)
by Hiphopopotamus on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:48:24 AM EST

remember that old SNL skit with the act-tors? Where they are act-ing? This is write-ing. With heavily laden quotations marks on each wing.
_________________

I'm In LOVE!
[ Parent ]

-1 maligns Kix cereal. (3.00 / 4) (#40)
by grargrargrar on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:13:12 AM EST

Chances are if your simile attacks something delicious, you've got to reconsider what you're comparing. For example, for something "puffed up and of little substance", may I suggest MMM?

[ Parent ]
I didn't get that feeling at all (none / 0) (#50)
by boxed on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:07:13 AM EST

...but I'm not a native speaker, which goes both ways I guess...

[ Parent ]
Just because.... (none / 0) (#129)
by andrew2 on Wed Nov 28, 2007 at 01:27:31 PM EST

Just because you have the vocabulary of a 6 year old doesn't mean everyone else does.  Maybe USA Today is more your speed.

[ Parent ]
muh dick (none / 0) (#130)
by Tex two point oh on Wed Nov 28, 2007 at 01:30:08 PM EST

eat it

[ Parent ]
i find it hard to be sympathetic with suicides (1.23 / 13) (#14)
by circletimessquare on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 05:52:03 PM EST

in the exact same way that i find it hard to sympathetic with homicidal assholes

both devalue life

additionally, suicides speak of a bleak, spiritual hopelessness that belies a horrible weakness in character

these people don't need hugs and tears to pull them back from the brink they need a swift kick to the head and a "snap out of it you nostalic sentimental navel gazing narcissistic self-involved fuck! there is more to life than YOU"

in fact, it is an inability to get angry at their predicament in life that is probably their fault. anger leads to reaffirmation of purpose

and really, the inability to get angry reveals what suicide is, in the end: all consuming narcissism

that's not a reason for sympathy

suicides make me very angry, not sad, at what colossal pits of delusional self-absorption they are

selfish assholes

whatever bullshit is bothering their lack of feeling of self-worth is oh so important, it bltos out all of their concern for other people's feelings, friends, families, and even strangers, that, to them, life should be so meaningless

life is NOT meaningless

...oh, you disagree with that statement?

swallow a shotgun, asshole, or shut the fuck up and agree with me. your choice. but you need to be logically coheerent and choose suicide if you believe life is meaningless. if you can't bring yourself to do it, then life has meaning to you, so stand with me against the bleak emptiness that is the souls of suicidal assholes, in anger at those fucking narcissistic black holes

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

http://suicidal.com/siteindex/anger.html (3.00 / 2) (#16)
by Calalily on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 06:22:24 PM EST


It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.(Unknown)
[ Parent ]
excellent response (1.33 / 3) (#23)
by circletimessquare on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 07:11:52 PM EST

by framing anger as a potential aspect of suicide, you win

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
A liberal moralizer. How cute.$ (none / 0) (#18)
by V on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 06:54:39 PM EST


---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]
yes, a liberal moralizer (1.20 / 5) (#19)
by circletimessquare on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 07:07:33 PM EST

as opposed to you, a nihilistic turd

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I want to see your face when you realize (3.00 / 2) (#21)
by V on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 07:09:33 PM EST

that it is your actions that lead to nihilism, not mine. I wonder if you can haz a sense of irony?

V.
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]

that's awesome (1.00 / 4) (#24)
by circletimessquare on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 07:12:48 PM EST

how intent has no meaning in your mind

especially in a disucssion about nothing but someone's intent


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Because your soul is so pure. (3.00 / 2) (#26)
by V on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 07:19:24 PM EST

Just like every other soul out there.

Listen. Just like I told you the other day, if your actions serve to bring a fascist police state does it matter that you did it "in the name of freedom"? Are you a "freedom fighter"? No, you were just a pawn, a moron.

Same shit here. You can say whatever you want about life, and purpose, and whatever shit they brainwash you morons these days, but, if for all the talk you do your actions will bring nihilism, you are the nihilist.

Any other intellectual charity?

V.
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]

my soul isn't pure (1.00 / 4) (#28)
by circletimessquare on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 07:22:38 PM EST

nobodoy's is. you think that you have to be a saint before you can criticize anyone? before you can act in this world

what a poor naive child

i drive a bus, i fall asleep and kill ten kids while driving. i feel horrible about it

i purposefully plan on killing children. i ram a truck, but only 2 kids die. i wish i had killed more

one guy killed 10 kids. the other killed 2

who is the greater criminal?

study the riddle. think. i have faith in you, you can figure out cretin: the meaning of intent in this world. every legal system in the world that has ever existed understands the difference (manslaughter versus murder)

now THAT's intellectual charity

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Riddle me this: (none / 1) (#30)
by V on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 07:28:23 PM EST

Some guy falls sleep and kill 20 children, even though he was advised not to drive that day because he was tired from drinking, etc.

Some other guy does not kill anybody.

Riddle me this: Who is the moron?

V.
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]

oh yes (1.00 / 4) (#32)
by circletimessquare on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 07:32:00 PM EST

he was advised not to drive the kids to school because children are just lazy useless turds who take up too much breathing room and were better off never born

he disregarded that advise, and killed kids. by mistake. so now the ultranegative asshole thinks he's wise, because he himself won't do anything in this world for anyone else

so according to you: no intent > good intent

amazing, truly convincing

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

OK I'll try to dumb it down to your level. (none / 1) (#35)
by V on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 07:57:04 PM EST

Some guy is told that if he pushes a button gas will be released into a chamber and it'll kill 1000 jews.

He says: my intentions are pure and I don't want to kill anyone. And pushes the button killing 1000 jews.

Some other guy doesn't push the button and kills no one.

Riddle me this: who is the moron?

V.
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]

the guy who pushed the button would be (none / 1) (#36)
by circletimessquare on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 07:59:09 PM EST

but the problem is your analogy doesn't hold

a better analogy would be: there is some guy gassing his own people. he's a petty dictator who wages wars of imperialism on his neighbors. this is wrong, and will create continued suffering and instability

do we fight him? or do we do nothing because life is meaningless and we couldn't be bothered?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Jesus Christ. Are you a woman? (none / 1) (#44)
by V on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 08:19:36 AM EST

Such inability to recognize your own shortcomings and rationalize whatever bullshit you want to believe.

Listen dudette. Your ideology leads to stagnations such leads to loss of values, which leads to nihilism. This is fucking obvious. And still you insist on pushing the fucking button and genocide the jews while claiming that "your intentions are pure". This isn't an Orson Scott Card novel.

Your liberal fundamentalism is a fucking dead end. Got it? The beginning of the end for mankind. Your liberal moralizing is poison for the future. Get that in your thick skull.

V.
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]

that was an interesting rant (none / 0) (#46)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 09:09:20 AM EST

lots of fish hooks in it

absolutely none of which having anything to do with what i said, what i mean, what i have always said and meant

try to understand what someone is actually saying to you, rather than making up what they stand for from the random voices in the back of your head

i can't react to anything of what you just threw at me, because the whole lot of it has absolutely nothing to do with anything i've said


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Definitly a woman.$ (none / 0) (#47)
by V on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 09:28:29 AM EST


---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]
say i was a woman (none / 0) (#49)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:06:10 AM EST

what's wrong with that?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
female logic (none / 1) (#68)
by alba on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 05:07:10 PM EST

is known to programmers as "undefined behaviour".

[ Parent ]
Lack of introspection.$ (none / 0) (#75)
by V on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 12:18:53 PM EST


---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]
women lack introspeciton? (none / 0) (#85)
by circletimessquare on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 02:49:35 AM EST

are you trying to lower my lack of respect of you even more?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Yes, they do. (none / 0) (#90)
by V on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 04:55:10 AM EST

They have the ability of never looking at themselves and finding mistakes and errors, therefore everyone else is to blame.

Like you.

V.
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]

awesome, a sexist (none / 0) (#96)
by circletimessquare on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 12:26:47 PM EST

blanketstatements about other people just because they have a twat

friend, you really are a loud piece of scum


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Who said it was because of the twat?$ (none / 1) (#101)
by V on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 04:22:11 PM EST


---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]
There are a few very narrow problem domains (none / 1) (#118)
by alba on Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 05:24:22 AM EST

where men and women have differing cognitive abilities.
For example women do see more color nuances and men are better at spatial navigation.
But that's not the issue.

All else being equal, men and women show the same  rate of success for solving complex real-world problems.
However, women have trouble describing how they arrived at their solution.
In extreme cases they present a correct solution and then give a recipe/algorithm that is trivially broken.
If you (the man) point out the deficit, you get told that there is an exception to the recipe.
If you ask for the systematics behind this exception, you get another broken recipe.
Ad infinitum.

This behavior gives women trouble in engineering.
Like men, laws of nature are too stupid to make obvious exceptions based on common sense.

And this behavior is also the opposite of Kant's Categorical imperative.
How do you want to discuss ethics with someone who does not care about formulating general principles?


[ Parent ]

that is the most fucking retarded thing i have (none / 0) (#119)
by circletimessquare on Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 06:24:41 PM EST

heard in a long time

i'll just put it this way: go pick your favoite slimy politician's slimiest propagandistic rephrasing of the issue form recent memory that made your blood boil

congratulations: you've just committed the same sins of half-truth

"How do you want to discuss ethics with someone who does not care about formulating general principles?"

equals

"Why do you hate America?"

if i question why the usa is in iraq i hate america?

if i say all things being equal being a sexist pussbag is fucking stupid means i can't talk about ethics?

please: die in a fire you fucking turd

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Strike! (none / 1) (#120)
by alba on Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 09:00:18 PM EST

if i question why the usa is in iraq i hate america?

Problem is, you have not only been strongly in favour of invading Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Myanmar, Somalia and a dozen other places. You are also making this an ethical imperative.

A ruthless administration sponsored by Halliburton & Co is one thing. The intellectual challenge of a proposed campaign to spread liberalism (TM) through fire and sword is something completely different.

Well, in theory. In the real world you are a prominent kook. Your ideas are lunatic. Your typical reply to contradiction is a nice flow of insults. Keep up the good show.



[ Parent ]
you talk about formulating general principles (none / 0) (#121)
by circletimessquare on Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 09:45:08 PM EST

cxs is all for doing xyz
neocon assholes are for doing xyz
therefore, cxs is a neoncon asshole

really?

so then i can do this:

alba is for wiping his ass before leaving the toilet
osama bin laden is for wiping his ass before leaving the toilet
therefore alba is just like osama bin laden

general principle you fail: simple kindergarten level failures simple logic

you think in the realm of the low iq, who doesn't understand some pretty simple failures of basic logic

get back to me when you "formulate the general principles" of logic

until you do that, you cannot "discuss ethics"

xoxoxoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I can understand the neocon fight for supremacy (none / 1) (#122)
by alba on Sun Nov 25, 2007 at 12:36:14 PM EST

Ok, planning, funding and realization is shit and does not work out.
But then it took the British centuries to build their empire.
So let's just give the Bush family a break.

The funny thing is that you want to attach some kind of humanitarian mission on the back of this neocon crusade. And every time somebody tells you that the methods of the neocons are incompatible with that humanitarian pretense you get in denial and spew bullshit. Very entertaining.

On the other hand this kind of trivial name calling and toying around with pail and shovel in a sandbox is exactly what modern mass democracy is about. An Arabic version of kuro5hin in a truly liberated, enlightened Iraq would probably be full of Jihad horny kooks like you.

So your ethical recipes are full of shit. Fortunately your acts are completely unrelated to them.

[ Parent ]

neocons fight for nation (none / 0) (#124)
by circletimessquare on Sun Nov 25, 2007 at 04:14:12 PM EST

i fight in the name of humanity

for an example in your failure in logic: if someone fights hitler for the sake of humanity, versus someone who fights hitler for the sake of france, why are you unable to understand that there are two different motivations here?

it is a failure of your critical thinking skills that you can't conceive of anyone who would oppose saddam hussein for any other reason

so the iranians who fought saddam hussein in the 1980s: they were neocons fighting in the name of the usa?

this is of course, absurd. this is of course, what one would have to conclude were they operating within your limited iq range to understand people, their motivations, and the wolrd you live in

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Alright. You know best what's good for humanity. (none / 1) (#125)
by alba on Sun Nov 25, 2007 at 05:40:10 PM EST

i fight in the name of humanity

Well, actually you don't fight. It's just words. But let's get on with it.

The term "humanity" encompasses all humans living, dead, and not yet born. So whom do you wan't to fight against, when you are fighting for all humans?

I suppose the term "crimes against humanity" might help. But then it might not. Because juridical proceedings single out perpetrators, determine accountability and in doubt acquit. And even worse, the laws they apply in places like The Hague consider motivation only as an extenuating cause.

What The Hague cannot give you is the right to kill arbitrary people of another state to overthrow its government. Killing people in wars of aggression is a war crime. Not matter out of which motivation you started the war. So your "fight in the name of humanity" requires pretty big exemptions for the good guys. And it's just tough luck for the poor chaps hanging out with the villain.

From a theoretical view point this is no better than what we have now. Yes, the details can make all the difference. But you refuse to talk about details.

for an example in your failure in logic: if someone fights hitler for the sake of humanity, versus someone who fights hitler for the sake of france, why are you unable to understand that there are two different motivations here?

A lot of people have fought Hitler for a lot of reasons. Yes, some even for the good of humanity. They typically ended up as cronies of Stalin.

Somebody claiming to fight for the good all humans while simultaneously calling everybody else names is just full of shit.

Now, please can I have another round of your fine Kookery?



[ Parent ]
fighting for humanity (none / 1) (#126)
by circletimessquare on Sun Nov 25, 2007 at 11:07:09 PM EST

is of course an open ended definition

you of course, in your brittle feeble mind, need everything defined exactly before you will commit to anything

being that we live in the real world, where very little is succinctly defined, you are a small lost mediocre feeble turd

i'm 10,000 feet beyond you. it's extreme intellectual charity to continue this conversation with someone as ideologically autistic as you

15 minutes to wapner. don't miss it you mediocre brittle turd

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Another frappant similarity with the neocons (none / 1) (#127)
by alba on Tue Nov 27, 2007 at 05:03:49 PM EST

Your "fighting for humanity" relates to real philosophy like Nescafe relates to coffee. Just like the attempt at neocolonialism in Iraq is an embarrassing demonstration of ignorance to British history.

[ Parent ]
yes, we understand you don't grasp logic already (none / 1) (#128)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 27, 2007 at 05:44:35 PM EST

i heard osama bin laden likes coffee

you like coffee too?

therefore, your ideology must be just like osama bin laden's

you're a moron


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Osama Bin Laden fights for humanity (none / 1) (#131)
by alba on Wed Nov 28, 2007 at 07:00:53 PM EST

According to the logic of Abrahamitic religions a life without believing in God is a lost life. By proselytizing infidels the number of lost lives is reduced. This advances the state of humanity.

But there's more to come: Hitler was fighting for humanity!
According to the logic of social Darwinism evolutionary improvement of humanity is obstructed by carriers of hereditary disease and a parasitic way of life. Getting rid of them advances the state of humanity.

And it still get's better: Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were also fighting for humanity! The working class does not really fight against all other classes. It wants to usurp them. According to the logic of Marxism a higher number of workers will produce more. And the more the better for humanity, says materialism.

Now could you please add some meat to your wish-wash philosophy?

[ Parent ]

what a moron (none / 1) (#132)
by circletimessquare on Thu Nov 29, 2007 at 01:44:14 AM EST

osama fights for sharia law, hitler fought for german supremacy, stalin for himself, pol pot against intellectuals, mao for the proletariat

as they themselves would say, and have said, about 10,000 times, in their own words

meanwhile, to say, to fight for humanity, and propose actual goals, that most anyone would admit advances humanity as a whole, is fighting for humanity

but thanks for playing moron


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Logic is all about consistency (none / 1) (#133)
by alba on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 09:06:27 PM EST

You can examine any aspect of anything. But have to apply criteria equally, or your comparisons are void.

osama fights for sharia law, hitler fought for german supremacy, stalin for himself, pol pot against intellectuals, mao for the proletariat

In that case you fight for common law and supremacy of the American way of life, are delighted when you have all of kuro5hin against you, despise rational thought end enjoy trash movies.



[ Parent ]
see that's the best part (none / 1) (#134)
by circletimessquare on Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 09:14:12 PM EST

cts: "i fight for human principles"
brian dead moron (you): "so why do fight for american nationalism"

when i say i fight for universal principles, what exactly in your brain prevents you from hearing that simple straightforward point exactly?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You really ask why nobody believes you? (none / 1) (#135)
by alba on Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 09:25:06 AM EST

Let's say I forget about your hard-earned reputation as one of kuro5hin's finest.

I'll even be so generous and forget about the USA's long history of overthrowing democracies to install fascist dictators, starting with the Monroe Doctrine.

Then I'll put on my pink John Lennon sunglasses and start believing that an army of faultless idealists, backed by a few billion altruistic dollars, will incite love and happiness with every casualty they cause in a foreign land.

That still leaves one issue: I know that there an awful lot of tiny and not so tiny differences between Europe and the USA while you are completely ignorant to the possibility that there might be worthy alternatives to the American way of life.

[ Parent ]

that's nice that you attack the usa (none / 1) (#136)
by circletimessquare on Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 01:51:06 PM EST

maybe someday you will figure out i don't fucking care about the usa, and if you wish to address what i'm saying, nevermind attack me, you'll finally fucking figure out I DON'T FUCKING CARE ABOUT THE USA

FUCK THE FUCKING USA

now, how about WHO I REALLY AM you blind stupid fuck

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/10/4/192537/865

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/9/5/172111/7190

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/12/21/21244/723

i look forward to your next post, in which you attack cold war american politics, and think that has ANY FUCKING THING TO DO WITH ME OR WHAT I REPRESENT AT ALL


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

"Liberalismus" means two things (3.00 / 3) (#137)
by alba on Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 06:46:25 PM EST

First of all it's the legacy of the historic movement that brought us the constitutional state.
The EU has taken this concept to religious heights, where the Rule of Law is considered the answer to all problems past, present and future.

However, this philosophy is not self-powered. Classic liberalism values only thing, the smooth functioning of institutions. Liberal parties in the 19th century had no problem arranging themselves with monarchies and segregation laws, once they had commercial law and stock exchange granted. The tendency of historic Liberals to accept any madness, if it just is a predictable madness, made them unpopular.

Well, then came WW2 and Europe slowly but steadily fell in love with the politics of lowered  expectations: No more war in Europe. That's it. As long as the technocrats in Brussels don't mess this up, they have jester's license.

The second, modern meaning of "Liberalismus" is libertarianism.

So on the hand you have people who value bureaucracy above all else. And on the other hand there are people who warship nothing but personal gain. Your concept of a revolutionary liberalism, is well, revolutionary.

Well, theoretically. In the real world you are using terms only USians understand because you know shit about the world.

[ Parent ]

this is the most narcissistic thing I've ever read (3.00 / 3) (#38)
by rhiannon on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:04:49 AM EST



-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
[ Parent ]
how's that work? (none / 1) (#45)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 09:06:35 AM EST

suicide is narcissism

my anger at that narcissism...

is a form of narcissism?!


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you think everyone should behave how you see fit (3.00 / 2) (#63)
by rhiannon on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 04:14:53 PM EST

You're worse than orion blastar.

-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
[ Parent ]
you can behave however the hell you want (1.00 / 3) (#65)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 04:28:22 PM EST

that you misread what i mean and say as a desire to control everyone's behavior speaks volumes about your inability to effectively communicate. to substitute the reality of what people actually say to you, with the bizarre fears in your head, is a classic delusional social problem

you're a retard

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Uh, retards are generally happy people, just sayin (3.00 / 2) (#66)
by Calalily on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 04:36:54 PM EST


It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.(Unknown)
[ Parent ]
"agree with me or swallow a shotgun" (3.00 / 3) (#67)
by rhiannon on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 04:39:48 PM EST

yeah you have no desire to control anyone's behavior, I'm just a crazy person!

-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
[ Parent ]
you still don't understand me (none / 1) (#84)
by circletimessquare on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 02:48:22 AM EST

i don't care what you do, i just hold you in such low esteem i'd like to see you dead. but if you take that as an actual command, who am i to interfere with progress towards the early departure of your sad sack piece of shit mind?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
the cognitive dissonance is palpable (none / 1) (#100)
by rhiannon on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 01:28:10 PM EST



-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
[ Parent ]
none here friend (none / 1) (#103)
by circletimessquare on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 12:24:37 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Wow (2.33 / 3) (#52)
by rusty on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:03:14 AM EST

I assume you also think people with cancer have a moral weakness and should just snap themselves out of it?

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
naive, stupid, simplistic (1.80 / 5) (#54)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:38:38 AM EST

you can give cancer patients love and support, and they will pull through, and be thankful for their precious time

you can give suicides love and support, and they'll still off themselves, because the problem is not simple biology, it's a failure of character

if you want, you can rephrease my hostility as tough love: a smack to the face does more to keep a suicide alive than hugs and kisses

feel me now?

my hostile attitude helps them live longer

serving at least as an objec tlesson of what they need to desire life: fire in the belly


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

It is biology. (2.66 / 6) (#56)
by rusty on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:54:45 PM EST

because the problem is not simple biology, it's a failure of character

That's exactly where you're wrong. Most suicides are the result of mental illness. Mental illness is no less real than cancer, and no more related to "character" than cancer either.

Neither your hostility nor your love and support mean squat. Medical treatment might help. But as long as jackholes like yourself insist on viewing mental illness as a "character defect" or a "moral condition" fewer people will get the medical help they need.

You are like a fundamentalist insisting that faith heals all.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

oh i see (none / 1) (#59)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:17:43 PM EST

this is all biology

nothing psychological, social, or cultural about it?

the fucking issue is 100% biology

and i'm the fundamentalist?

you're a fucking moron, and closer to a fundamentalist on this question than i am

FAIL


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Completed suicides are not only done by (2.00 / 3) (#62)
by dakini on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 04:02:54 PM EST

those with a mental illness. Those suffering physical defects and/or problems with alcohol/drug abuse are major factors in suicides.

In my work, I have seen more of the latter, alcohol and drugs claiming more lives then the result of a mental illness. With the high rate of drug use among our younger generation, the suicide rate has grown in the past few years. North American Indians have known alcohol problems, and with this comes a very high rate of suicide.

Not everyone who commits suicide has a mental illness.

Suicide

" May your vision be clear, your heart strong, and may you always follow your dreams."
[ Parent ]

THANK YOU. READ ABOVE RUSTY nt (none / 0) (#64)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 04:26:30 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Drug addiction (2.00 / 2) (#69)
by Spendocrat on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:16:32 PM EST

Has a large biological component.

[ Parent ]
No, not everyone (2.60 / 5) (#70)
by rusty on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:37:08 PM EST

My point is just that most of them are, and it seems much more helpful to me to treat suicide (and attempted suicide) as a mental illness than as a moral defect.

I would also point at drug and alcohol addiction as strong symptoms of mental illness as well, for what it's worth. I've never known an alcoholic who was simply an alcoholic, with no other mental or psychological problems.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

I agree... (2.33 / 3) (#74)
by Calalily on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 10:24:58 AM EST

...people self-medicate to feel better rather than seek treatment from a psychologist or psychiatrist as there is more stigma attached to mental illness than to substance abuse.
It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.(Unknown)
[ Parent ]
CTS is a Cartesian Dualist. (none / 1) (#123)
by skyknight on Sun Nov 25, 2007 at 01:07:07 PM EST

How else could he believe that a person could not have a broken brain in the same fashion that he could have a broken knee?

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
what about the Japanese? (2.50 / 2) (#71)
by nostalgiphile on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:22:01 PM EST

many Japanese suicides actually seem to have that "fire in the belly" you mention (below). In their view, suicide is not an act of sad weakness (as it is for people with judaeo-christian upbringings), but an act of bravery and firm resolve. Dying is inevitable, so what's "weak" about literally taking your life in your own hands and snuffing it in the coolest manner imaginable?

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
japanese are not aliens (none / 1) (#89)
by circletimessquare on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 03:10:04 AM EST

human culture is a vague template which somewhat tweaks basic inalterable truths about all essential human nature

as for the rest, if you consider suicide one of the "coolest" ways to die, i have nothing more to say to you, because such a statement is so fucking moronic, you are beneath my contempt


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Darwinism at work? Survival of the ... (none / 1) (#102)
by Calalily on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 10:20:38 PM EST

..fittest and those that commit suicide are in fact damaged. Also, if they die without offspring they do not bequeth the defect onto another generation. If they have offspring, then the defect continues and is sometimes doubled if the other donor also has the defect. If, however, one of the donors is not defective, there is still a 50/50 chance of passing on the defect.
It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.(Unknown)
[ Parent ]
except it's not mostly biological (none / 1) (#104)
by circletimessquare on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 12:25:31 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Exactly. Biology is what I am talking about. n/t (none / 1) (#107)
by Calalily on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 01:47:05 PM EST


It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.(Unknown)
[ Parent ]
Oops, misread thought you said it was biology. (none / 0) (#108)
by Calalily on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 01:48:40 PM EST


It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.(Unknown)
[ Parent ]
THIS ISN'T BIOLOGY (none / 0) (#112)
by circletimessquare on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 05:50:37 PM EST

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4071805.stm

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Maybe it is...just in groups like lemmings. n/t (none / 1) (#116)
by Calalily on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 07:20:05 PM EST


It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.(Unknown)
[ Parent ]
awesome (none / 1) (#117)
by circletimessquare on Sat Nov 24, 2007 at 02:13:31 AM EST

where you win the argument on biology versus psychology by redefining the meaning of psychology to be biology


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
See Link (none / 1) (#110)
by Calalily on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 02:43:40 PM EST

Biology Link
It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.(Unknown)
[ Parent ]
page not found (none / 1) (#113)
by circletimessquare on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 05:51:00 PM EST

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4071805.stm

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
http://www.npr.org/programs/death/980429.death.htm (none / 1) (#114)
by Calalily on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 07:10:53 PM EST


It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.(Unknown)
[ Parent ]
Three's a charm I hope. WTF? (2.00 / 2) (#115)
by Calalily on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 07:11:59 PM EST

http://www.npr.org/programs/death/980429.death.html
It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.(Unknown)
[ Parent ]
I've always regarded selfishness... (2.33 / 3) (#73)
by tweet on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 09:45:03 AM EST

...as a factor in suicides, assuming of course that there exist people who care sufficiently about the person to be hurt when they're gone.  

But your dismissal of other factors in a suicide, such as mental illness and depression is simplistic. Perhaps you have never been in a sufficiently difficult situation for suicidal thoughts to occur.  In that case it would be very easy to take such a dismissive attitude.

_______________________________________________
Not everything in black and white makes sense.

[ Parent ]

fire in the belly (none / 1) (#88)
by circletimessquare on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 03:06:39 AM EST

anger is a fire that burns in all of us. it is our life force. anger is modified by socialization to present our avaraice to live in socially acceptable ways. open aggression and rage represents a will to live that hasn't been properly socialized yet

the point is, in one way or another, a suicide is what you get when someone can't get angry anymore. the fire of life has gone out in them

one of the best ways to get people to reconsider suicide is to get them angry: respark their will to live

i always found people get angry at me when i kick them in the head

you can't hug, kiss, or otherwise nurture a dead hearth. you need to spark it. call it tough love if you want


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

no, they're just normal people (none / 0) (#105)
by mikelist on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 08:35:00 AM EST

that want to do something abnormal. when someone feels sad, lonely, consumed by pain, hopeless, what they really need is a kick in the head. in fact it might be the answer to all of life's problems.

i nominate cts to perform this life-saving miracle.

[ Parent ]

Perhaps so. (none / 1) (#106)
by tweet on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 01:10:45 PM EST

With enough kicks to the head, one could eliminate the need to consider suicide altogether.

You have to maim to be kind.

_______________________________________________
Not everything in black and white makes sense.

[ Parent ]

Agree with me or die? (2.33 / 3) (#77)
by FreakWent on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 05:43:27 PM EST

you wouldn't know logical coherence if it shafted you right up the alpaca.  Your life miight not be meaningless, but that doesn't mean there's isn't.

Many suicide from having broken brains; depression, schizophrenia, drug addictions and so on.  I doubt that a kick in the head would help them snap out of it.

You are referring to a particular self-indulgent teen suicide culture that's a result of both self-imposed and externally imposed exclusion, and a realisation that you were bubble-wrapped too long and the real world is very very different from what you were told.

I think narcissistic delusional self-absorbtion is a pretty good summary for that kind of thing.  I agree with most of your diagnosis, but none of your treatments.

Having said that, why should someone be denied the choice to die? It implies that they are not owned by themsleves but by society; that's a pretty left wing view coming from a guy like you.

[ Parent ]

euthanasia is ok, suicide isn't (1.33 / 3) (#87)
by circletimessquare on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 03:02:49 AM EST

euthanaisa: sound mind, unsound body. someone with horrible painful terminal bone cancer, for example, has my blessing to off themselves

suicide: unsound mind, sound body. you say people should have the right to commit suicide as an aspect of freedom. i assert to you that only people with unsound minds choose to commit suicide. therefore, no one chooses suicide unless they are under some duress. therefore, choosing suicide is never a statement of personal choice or freedom. so saying you prevent someone from choosing suicicde is about controlling others is logically wrong: the person choosing to commit suicide isn't making a free choice at all, so you aren't limiting there freedom in the first place

the aspect of personal freedom always comes up when suicide is talked about by people who don't understand what suicide is all about. a free man never chooses suicide. a man under duress does

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

suicide has nothing (3.00 / 2) (#79)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 11:06:56 PM EST

to do with narcissism, cts. it is not a play for attention or a sign of weakness.   people who wish to commit suicide are in pain.  they want to make it stop.  they can't, at the time, see any way to stop it and they can't concieve that it's ever going to stop hurting.  and they feel worthless when in that state.  

so i'm curious. why the vitriole?

[ Parent ]

if you love yourself (1.33 / 3) (#86)
by circletimessquare on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 02:56:32 AM EST

you are above the slights and faults of life

you have to understand how twisted and deep the rabbit hole of self-love can go. it can change patterns of thinking about your relationship with the world that you don't consider malleable


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

well and that (none / 1) (#109)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 02:29:43 PM EST

may be good and fine.  but that doesn't change what i'm saying.  

[ Parent ]
except THAT IT DOES (none / 1) (#111)
by circletimessquare on Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 05:49:38 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I doubt this statement is true: (3.00 / 5) (#37)
by nostalgiphile on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 11:49:31 PM EST

"Watching this movie will foster understanding of the quiet desperation of lives unfulfilled." And if I wanted to understand that I'd just watch myself in the mirror for a few more minutes every morning.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
There are suicide bridges near every urban center (2.28 / 7) (#43)
by GrubbyBeardedHermit on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 07:48:47 AM EST

What is it about you Americans that makes you think that you are worthy subjects of cinematography?  Who decided that the birth, life and death of the "ordinary American" was something to be celebrated as somehow especially poignant and meaningful?  Fuck off and die already, nobody cares about you.  

GBH

Look at the titles of their movies: (2.00 / 3) (#48)
by Hiphopopotamus on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 09:39:46 AM EST

American Gangster
American Pie
American History X
American President
American Tragedy
etc.
_________________

I'm In LOVE!
[ Parent ]

Ha (3.00 / 4) (#51)
by rusty on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:02:10 AM EST

You're just jealous because once they made "Canadian Donuts" they were pretty much out of material.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
It would never work (1.50 / 2) (#53)
by Hiphopopotamus on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:03:38 AM EST


_________________

I'm In LOVE!
[ Parent ]

Pffffttt... (3.00 / 2) (#61)
by dakini on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 03:46:25 PM EST



" May your vision be clear, your heart strong, and may you always follow your dreams."
[ Parent ]
you're just jealous (none / 1) (#55)
by nostalgiphile on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:13:53 PM EST

really sucks being from those other English-speaking countries, doesn't it? England, isn't?

Srsly though, if you want good cinematography you have to come to Asia.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]

pretty easy` (none / 0) (#72)
by khallow on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 12:49:01 AM EST

It's a story about the interesting 4% of the world that the interesting 4% of the world would be interested in.

Stating the obvious since 1969.
[ Parent ]

Did anyone go to Bridge movie trailer? (3.00 / 2) (#57)
by LastChanceforMaryJane on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 01:04:28 PM EST



-1 waaa emo crap (1.00 / 3) (#91)
by nyet on Thu Nov 22, 2007 at 05:33:56 AM EST

Yes, everything having to do with suicide is always "OMG! hauntingly beautiful".

The Bridge, a Documentary Film by Eric Steel | 204 comments (195 topical, 9 editorial, 3 hidden)
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