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[P]
Suggestion: automatically bar all Meta submissions from the front page.

By itsbruce in Meta
Sat Oct 07, 2000 at 12:41:20 AM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

I looked at the last one, about the "Best of kuro5hin" and I felt like making this proposal there, only it would be off topic there and sour things unnecessarily. I have nothing against the "Best of" proposal but I don't think it should have been on the front page.

I don't think anything I've seen in the Meta section should be in the front page, especially the "Keep it off the front page" submissions. Can anyone make a good case at all for letting Meta submissions onto the front page? It only seems to annoy people and turn them off

So I propose that Meta stories are automatically sent to Section and never to the front page.

Oh, and don't vote this onto the front page. Please.


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Suggestion: automatically bar all Meta submissions from the front page. | 18 comments (17 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
Sounds good... (4.27 / 11) (#1)
by Mendax Veritas on Fri Oct 06, 2000 at 07:04:04 PM EST

... so I voted "Section Page", since this is a Meta topic. :-)

Seriously, this seems valid. Most people don't visit K5 to read Meta topics, they come to read the tech and culture stuff -- topics that aren't about K5, but simply are discussed on K5. The more important of those non-Meta topics are worth putting on the front page. Meta topics, being essentially K5 administrative issues, don't really need to be so prominent.

I voted Front Page just for the irony... (2.36 / 11) (#3)
by psicE on Fri Oct 06, 2000 at 07:12:36 PM EST

(had to do that, it was just too funny.)

Most of the time, Meta should go to section. If it should, it'll be voted there. In the case of the "best of", it actually was important enough to go to the main page, because it will affect all new Kuro5hin users and all new article posters greatly if passed. Don't take the front page option away for that reason.

Re: I voted Front Page just for the irony... (2.80 / 5) (#4)
by psicE on Fri Oct 06, 2000 at 07:13:33 PM EST

Speaking of which, I still think that all articles should automatically be visible in their respective sections, and the voting is only for their visibility on the front page.

[ Parent ]
Re: I voted Front Page just for the irony... (2.50 / 4) (#5)
by itsbruce on Fri Oct 06, 2000 at 07:31:05 PM EST

Most of the time, Meta should go to section. If it should, it'll be voted there.
This is demonstrably not the case, as shown by the two "Keep it off the front page" stories that made it onto the front pate - and by your vote to put this there.
In the case of the "best of", it actually was important enough to go to the main page, because it will affect all new Kuro5hin users and all new article posters greatly if passed.
I seriously doubt it will have that much impact. I don't think people would actually pay that much attention to it. And would it be a good thing if they did? Would the quality of the discussions improve if people always had the top 10 (or whatever) in mind when submitting or commenting? Or would it be more likely to have a negative effect? Would it have any effect at all except to generate meta stories about what was wrong with the scoring mechanism?

None of which is relevant. It didn't need to be on the front page. No Meta story does. Those who are interested in the way kuro5hin is organised will check the Meta section anyway. The mechanics of it all should not get in the way of the discussions themselves.

--

It is impolite to tell a man who is carrying you on his shoulders that his head smells.
[ Parent ]
Re: I voted Front Page just for the irony... (2.66 / 3) (#6)
by psicE on Fri Oct 06, 2000 at 07:38:50 PM EST

First, this is the only story like this I've voted to the front page, ever.

Second, I'm not a huge fan of sections to begin with. I don't like having to check each section, I just wanna be able to go and look at the front page, and see if anything new's come up. I know there's the sidebar that shows all comments, but it's easier to tell when the pictures rotate.

[ Parent ]
Re: I voted Front Page just for the irony... (3.66 / 3) (#9)
by Ranger Rick on Fri Oct 06, 2000 at 10:12:14 PM EST

Second, I'm not a huge fan of sections to begin with. I don't like having to check each section ...

Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what the Hotlist is for?

:wq!


[ Parent ]
Re: I voted Front Page just for the irony... (2.33 / 3) (#12)
by psicE on Sat Oct 07, 2000 at 09:42:31 AM EST

Hotlist is for tracking your favorite stories. There is a column called "Section Stories" on the front page, but I still think that's a compromise.

We either need an option to disable sections per user account (so that for you all stories are on the front page), or eliminate them entirely.

[ Parent ]
Re: I voted Front Page just for the irony... (4.33 / 3) (#13)
by itsbruce on Sat Oct 07, 2000 at 11:37:12 AM EST

We either need an option to disable sections per user account (so that for you all stories are on the front page)
Fair suggestion, though the display preferences have been broken as long as I've been here so I don't know how modifiable they are anyway.
or eliminate them entirely.
Very unfair suggestion. All the fuss about what goes on the first page shows that many people - I'd guess a clear majority from the voting and comment in the various meta stories - want the Front Page/Section division.

--

It is impolite to tell a man who is carrying you on his shoulders that his head smells.
[ Parent ]
this is embarrassing (4.59 / 22) (#7)
by rusty on Fri Oct 06, 2000 at 08:49:06 PM EST

Umm. Ok, I have to confess something. Ever since "Section-only" vs. "Front Page" has been implemented, we've had a HUGE bug in effect. I fixed it (I hope) about 30 seconds ago.

Basically it goes like this: Every "Don't Care" and "Dump it" vote was counting toward a front page posting -- not in terms of score, but in terms of categorization. So basically, when a story did go up, and it came time to decide whether it was section only or not, the comparison was:

("Front page" + "Don't Care" + "Dump It") <> ( "Section Only")

The first bit, obviously, almost *always* was larger.

Soooo. That's why so much stuff has been front paging. We're not all as dumb as we thought we were -- I'm just way dumber than any of you thought I was. Um. Feel free to use this thread to berate me savagely.

In light of the preceeding, I think we should wait and see what the *real* behavior looks like, before we go limiting what can and can't go front page. I'm really sorry about this... it very much sucks. Hopefully it's fixed now. And great big huge thanks to Bob Galloway for reading the code and noticing it, and emailing me. Saved all our sanity. Thanks, Bob.

____
Not the real rusty

Re: this is embarrassing (4.33 / 3) (#10)
by roryi on Sat Oct 07, 2000 at 08:35:16 AM EST

whoops...

what was the ratio of section page : front page votes before the bugfix? I know that I've been over-compensating (towards section-only) in the last few days as the front-page churn rate has spiralled.

If other people have been doing something similar and miss your announcement, we could suddenly see almost every submission being voted section-only, causing the front page to become a frozen wilderness...



[ Parent ]
Re: this is embarrassing (none / 0) (#17)
by aphrael on Mon Oct 09, 2000 at 05:53:23 PM EST

If other people have been doing something similar and miss your announcement, we could suddenly see almost every submission being voted section-only, causing the front page to become a frozen wilderness...

That will almost certainly happen; I think everyone was over-compensating and then getting frustrated as it didn't work. But the frozen-wilderness thing is self-correcting; we'll probably see a spate of "post more to the front page" articles, as well. :)

Life is a circle. Or is it that circles are life?

[ Parent ]

The funny thing is... (3.00 / 2) (#11)
by itsbruce on Sat Oct 07, 2000 at 09:01:39 AM EST

People kept voting for it after your announcement but now they have nothing to say on the subject. I don't know if that means that they all voted before reading any of the comments or if they all hoped somebody else would have something new to say.

It was my first submission, so I was quite pleased to see it race into section in double-quick time - but now it just seems to be sitting here in embarrassment;)

--

It is impolite to tell a man who is carrying you on his shoulders that his head smells.
[ Parent ]
Re: this is embarrassing (none / 0) (#15)
by mihalis on Mon Oct 09, 2000 at 12:26:09 AM EST

Whilst I have no desire to berate Rusty savagely, I have picked up a delicious new signature which I intend to keep for a while. People who read the "fear and loathing" topic will understand.

Chris
-- Chris Morgan <see em at mihalis dot net>
[ Parent ]

I respectfully disagree (4.36 / 11) (#8)
by Denor on Fri Oct 06, 2000 at 09:03:07 PM EST

(Though I did vote this to section)

I personally think a lot of the meta articles shouldn't end up on the front page. That said, I think there are a few that should. Another poster mentioned the 'best of' article, one I didn't vote on but definitely think is front page material.

Even this might deserve to go to the front page, if only for rusty's announcement that - up until now - the section voting wasn't working properly. (Though I imagine that'll be covered in a later "state of K5" story, along with other things, as it's not enough to warrant its own story)

In short, I'm not big in favor of auto-pigeonholing stories :)


-Denor


Good idea...but let's not start regulating (3.66 / 6) (#14)
by Moneo on Sat Oct 07, 2000 at 03:41:28 PM EST

I agree with your complaint -- I'd rather not see discussion about k5 on the front page. However, I'd rather see this implemented by people, rather than by regulation. That is, I'd rather see us, as a community, vote Meta articles to Section because we all think it's best that way, rather than have rusty enforce it. That's sort of a principle of mine -- I'd rather see people learn to do it the right way themselves than force them to do it.

Aslo, there may occasionally be things that are important enough that they warrant the kinds of discussion they can only get on the front page.

<offtopic>
I'm new to k5, and I'd just like to say thanks to rusty for giving us a great site, and to the community for knowing how to use it. We've got a truly democratic system here and an intelligent populace...it's like a society of philosopher kings. If only the real word were this nice.
</offtopic>

Moneo
Propaganda plays the same role in a democracy as violence does in a dictatorship. -- Noam Chomsky
One-size-fits all policies are bad. (3.00 / 2) (#16)
by aphrael on Mon Oct 09, 2000 at 05:50:47 PM EST

On the other hand, sometimes a meta-discussion belongs on the front page: imagine an announcemebt by Rusty about a major change to the way things work (say, perhaps, he decided to abolish mojo for some reason). *That* should certainly at least have the chance of getting to the front page ....

Not necessary (3.00 / 1) (#18)
by Precious Roy on Wed Oct 11, 2000 at 12:46:31 PM EST

Now that the section vs. front bug is fixed, I really don't think it's necessary to issue blanket rules like this.

Just look at the front page right now... there was a span of nearly 48 hours where not a single story went up.

I think self-regulation by the users is (finally) working the way it's supposed to, and that's good enough for me.

Suggestion: automatically bar all Meta submissions from the front page. | 18 comments (17 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
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