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[P]
New Layout

By rusty in Meta
Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:17:38 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

You have probably all noticed the new design. It's not an enormous change, but I think it improves things quite a bit. Massive credit to Driph for, as always, being our graphics guru and design slave.

I thought I'd post this so you can give me, and him, some feedback. Like it? Hate it? Let us know.

Oh, and we're going to change the +/- hotlist icons a bit. So, don't panic about that. :-)

Update [2001-1-13 3:49:36 by rusty]: Some updated info below...


Ok, due to (ah-hem) "popular demand", the logo has been adjusted a bit. Vigilant #K5er acous came up with the logo that's there now (you may have to refresh and/or clear your cache), which I think is a good compromise between the new idea and the old bridge image. So now you can tell it's a bridge, and that it's falling down, but it still fits the new "feel" of the rest of the header.

We're still working on the story layout, so please bear with it a bit. Your suggestions are not going unheard, by any means!

Also, we're going to try doing the section links as just HTML. It may work, it may not. But we will try it.

Thanks for all of your feedback. :-)

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Display: Sort:
New Layout | 151 comments (150 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
What have you done with Rusty? (2.15 / 13) (#1)
by Signal 11 on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:43:56 PM EST

What have you done with the real Rusty? Where is he? Why does this one have a goatee?

The real rusty was never this good at coding. =)


--
Society needs therapy. It's having
trouble accepting itself.

my diary (3.16 / 6) (#3)
by Refrag on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:46:24 PM EST

You can see my diary entry made before Rusty's announcement here.

Refrag

Kuro5hin: ...and culture, from the trenches

Hah! (2.66 / 4) (#5)
by 11223 on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:47:46 PM EST

I beat you *long* to the punch, mister, with my diary entry and a few comments.

Sorry, no first notice to you ;-)

--
The dead hand of Asimov's mass psychology wins every time.
[ Parent ]

Just because... (3.33 / 4) (#6)
by Refrag on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:50:05 PM EST

That's just because I couldn't find the freaking link to make a submission, so I did a diary entry instead. :)

Refrag

Kuro5hin: ...and culture, from the trenches
[ Parent ]

Feedback.... (3.75 / 8) (#4)
by 11223 on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:46:57 PM EST

If I didn't already know that was a bridge, I'd think it was a set of orthodintic braces. It's interesting in a post-modern sort of way, but it doesn't seem to invoke the proper quantity of bridgy-ness.

Why are Everything and Diaries bolded? Other than the fact that they're important, I mean. I understand they're important, but do they need to scream it? Maybe a change of colors would do the trick to add a subtle amount of emphasis.

MLP isn't centered in its icon.

Why isn't the amount of free space to the left and right of a word in an icon the same between icons? It seems to be inconsistent.

Well, I like it. Don't get me wrong. It just sort of, well, feels different, and so I notice these things ;-)

Rusty: why don't you skip the queue on these things?

--
The dead hand of Asimov's mass psychology wins every time.

Break the bridge (4.33 / 7) (#19)
by retinaburn on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:59:30 PM EST

If I wasn't mistaken the old bridge was broken at the edge (a la Tacoma Narrows) ..this one is whole. Is Rusty trying to tell us something, is he taking the bridge outta here leaving us until the next big wind storm snaps it in two leaving us to fall; dying on impact, drowning or being crushed by loads of falling concrete.

All kidding aside "break the bridge".


I think that we are a young species that often fucks with things we don't know how to unfuck. -- Tycho


[ Parent ]
Like a Troubled Bridge over Water (4.00 / 3) (#92)
by Monster on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 08:36:39 PM EST

If I wasn't mistaken the old bridge was broken at the edge (a la Tacoma Narrows)
Yes. That's what made the logo so cool. The Tacoma Narrows Bridge is symbolic of tech hubris. It serves as a reminder that anything can fail in unexpected and spectacular fashion. Helps keep us humble when we think we know it all.
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO
[ Parent ]
Responses.... (4.33 / 4) (#23)
by rusty on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:02:40 PM EST

If I didn't already know that was a bridge, I'd think it was a set of orthodintic braces. It's interesting in a post-modern sort of way, but it doesn't seem to invoke the proper quantity of bridgy-ness.
It's part of Driph's ongoing campaign to abstract the bridge to it's deeper, underlying essence of bridginess.

Ok, who really cared that it was a bridge anyway? The last version looked like a guillotine, this one looks like braces. Hell, the next one will probably be a blue spot on a white field, and he'll tell us it's a bridge.

Why are Everything and Diaries bolded? Other than the fact that they're important, I mean. I understand they're important, but do they need to scream it? Maybe a change of colors would do the trick to add a subtle amount of emphasis.
Everything, so that people notice it. Diaries... I'm not sure. Driph?

MLP isn't centered in its icon.
That effect is because the right edge of the links bar is a graphic. I aligned MLP "right" and that seems to make it, if not perfect, at least close to centered.
Why isn't the amount of free space to the left and right of a word in an icon the same between icons? It seems to be inconsistent.
Not sure what you mean...
Rusty: why don't you skip the queue on these things?
Cause those are the rules. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Oh, fudge. (3.33 / 3) (#34)
by 11223 on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:12:43 PM EST

I wrote that before I realized they were all in nifty tables ;-)

Here's what you need to do with the bridge icon: When you do the super-secret handshake control-alt-gerbil click on the bridge, a large window with green text saying "See live video quicktime free!" linked to a video of the Tahoma Narrows Bridge shoud pop up.

Waitaminit - there's no link to the story on the post reply page. Click to reply to this to confirm that there's no direct link back to the story.

--
The dead hand of Asimov's mass psychology wins every time.
[ Parent ]

Link back (3.33 / 4) (#41)
by rusty on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:23:16 PM EST

Waitaminit - there's no link to the story on the post reply page. Click to reply to this to confirm that there's no direct link back to the story.

There hasn't been for ages. I was wondering when (if?) anyone was gonna mention that.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Well... (3.00 / 4) (#42)
by 11223 on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:27:22 PM EST

Can you put it in?

--
The dead hand of Asimov's mass psychology wins every time.
[ Parent ]

Diaries not resizing properly. (4.28 / 7) (#7)
by nospoon on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:50:40 PM EST

From front page - click on Diaries in section bar at top. The page is too wide and you have to use the left right scrollbars. It appears to be hardcoded widths in th story summary section?


'Desire that is Friday'
Dude! (2.00 / 4) (#9)
by 11223 on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:52:11 PM EST

Dude, what browser are you using? What language are you using? What font are you using? What planet are you from?

In other words, in a sane browser, it shows up fine...

--
The dead hand of Asimov's mass psychology wins every time.
[ Parent ]

Browser (3.66 / 3) (#13)
by nospoon on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:55:03 PM EST

I am using IE 5.00.2314.1003 on Windows 98. (It's my work machine)

It would only be noticable on < 800 wide window I think.


'Desire that is Friday'
[ Parent ]
almost perfect (4.54 / 11) (#8)
by superfly on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:51:37 PM EST

I like it, except for one problem... The category labels at the top force the page to be wider than I would like.

rusty, are you keeping a copy of the old design this time? You know, for posterity or something.



I'm with this guy... (4.00 / 4) (#26)
by Refrag on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:03:16 PM EST

The submit story navigation row should be broken into two rows because it makes my browser too wide. Either that, or maybe you could change "your account" to "your K5".

Refrag

Kuro5hin: ...and culture, from the trenches
[ Parent ]

Story Header (4.44 / 9) (#10)
by mattx on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:52:47 PM EST

I think the story headers should be a different color, not just line separated. It all runs together.

Other than that, looks good!

-- i fear that i am ordinary, just like everyone


love the new layout (3.90 / 10) (#11)
by dexsun on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:53:11 PM EST

yes!! the site looks awesome guys. good work! :P i liked the old kuro-bridge a little bit more, but i think ill get used to this one. my only real gripe is the way the front page stories are layed out in such a fashion that the above story is followed by the next author's name w/o a any sort of break. its very disorienting when you look down further on the page. perhaps some color on the title or another bar would help. otherwise i love it... plutonically speaking thanks for all the hard work --dexsun

now we're gettin somewhere (1.00 / 1) (#129)
by dexsun on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 03:17:32 PM EST

this new story layout is much better... i'd say im pleased with it the way it is now; i know i suggested color,
but frankly i think that would look too slashdotty. i noticed that in mozilla 0.7, some of the titles run into
the story image, but not in galeon, or ns4. i dunno if thats a moz.problem or your problem, but i thought
you should know. the new logo is also pretty nice, but i looks a little blurry, maybe it could be cleaned up some?
once again, gentlemen, excellent work.
i am very pleased.
thanks
--dexsun

[ Parent ]
Where is that confounded bridge? (4.00 / 9) (#12)
by lmnop on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:54:19 PM EST

While the new bridge logo is spiffy the original worked better. I actually knew what bridge it was (PBS flashback I guess).

You do need to fix the link icons (they are rather boldy). Other than that nice and clean.


"If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error." -- John Kenneth Galbraith
Borders Around/Between Stories (4.33 / 9) (#14)
by Logan on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:55:28 PM EST

It makes it easier for me to concentrate on reading the story intros if there is a border around or in between stories (but with that horizontal rule between the story header and the intro, that might get a little tacky). Other than that, I like it.

Logan

hotlist icons (3.40 / 5) (#15)
by Refrag on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:56:21 PM EST

Rusty, the hotlist icons are my favorite thing about the new design. Don't change them! Unless, you're going to make them even better. :)

The topic bar would be my favorite thing if it didn't make the browser window wider than I like it to be.

Refrag

Kuro5hin: ...and culture, from the trenches

Better? (3.00 / 8) (#17)
by Armaphine on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:57:51 PM EST

Unless, you're going to make them even better.

Really? I thought he was going to try to make them worse, maybe add a few hundred blink tags, and a huge animated GIF!

Question authority. Don't ask why, just do it.
[ Parent ]

Better! (3.66 / 4) (#20)
by Refrag on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:00:01 PM EST

You did note the :) after my sentence about making them better, right?

Actually, now that you mention it, Rusty should make the hotlist icons animated with Flash! That would rule! ;)

Refrag

Kuro5hin: ...and culture, from the trenches
[ Parent ]

Icons (3.66 / 4) (#28)
by rusty on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:05:30 PM EST

The gist will stay the same. I think they should either be grey or blue in color though. The black is a little to attention-grabbing.

Hey Driph-- wanna do something along those lines? :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

color (3.66 / 4) (#31)
by Refrag on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:10:20 PM EST

Yea, a color change sounds like it might work... However, the hotlist buttons now kinda seem like they go with the <LI> bullets, so you may want to leave them black.

Refrag

Kuro5hin: ...and culture, from the trenches
[ Parent ]

Ack! No! (4.25 / 5) (#38)
by sugarman on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:21:15 PM EST

I mentioned this here, but I'm of the mind that the new hotlist icons blow. This is mostly due to the placement and similarity to the "expandable tree-list" format that has become a default inclusion in damn near every window manager and GUI onthe planet. Because this button has a different functionality, it creates confusion. The same problem wouldn't be quite as pronouced if they were on the other side of the story, but a mixed message is still given off.

I'm still sticking with the idea that the little blue flames from Donkey Kong would fit the bill better.

--sugarman--
[ Parent ]

alignment (3.33 / 4) (#45)
by Refrag on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:29:57 PM EST

Yes, the hotlist icons should probably go on the right side. I can see how they might confuse someone since they are on the left side.

Refrag

Kuro5hin: ...and culture, from the trenches
[ Parent ]

Criticism (4.36 / 11) (#16)
by Narcischizm on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:56:52 PM EST

I want the bridge logo back. The whole thing, not a stylized monocular view. At least enough so that I can tell its a bridge, and not a floor-mount bike rack.

Whee! (3.14 / 7) (#18)
by leviathan on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 02:59:06 PM EST

There was me thinking, how did driph know the exact width of my browser window? Then I resized my window and watched all resize itself.

I'm currently resizing my window in and out with a big grin on my face.

Grr! It all goes a bit pear-shaped if I shrink much though (so that the 'submit story' line wraps). I never did get much into HTML table design, but I guess it's fixable. I doubt you can get the sections bar to wrap as needed, though.

Like the new, space-saving design. Like the clean feel (though it's a bit ironic since this place it called kuro5hin). Like the anti-aliased section links. Dislike the new bridge-design. I always thought it was much clearer what it was in the original photo (as seen in the icon for the above article), and the new one looks even less like a corroded bridge.

--
I wish everyone was peaceful. Then I could take over the planet with a butter knife.
- Dogbert

Space-saving!?! (4.50 / 5) (#46)
by Robert Uhl on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:31:39 PM EST

Space saving? How on earth!?! The old design squeezed into whatever browser size I used; the new one brings up horizontal scroll bars 'cause it hard codes a size. Also, I preferred the old comment headers. And why, oh why, are images used instead of text? A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it eats up about ten thousand words of bandwidth. Also, the lack of delineation between stories is a real pain. All in all, I much preferred the old design--and I'm new, so it is not as though I was wedded to it.

[ Parent ]
Uh, OK (3.00 / 3) (#87)
by leviathan on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 07:09:14 PM EST

Maybe I was on a bit of a high after screwing around with the browser ;)

Personally, all the window managers and systems I use k5 under I haven't set to inhibit window scroll bars at all, so they don't pop up for me. I do think it should be fixed though. On this system I'm currently on, I lose the last three section links because I run my windows smaller here, but curiously it doesn't break the table if the 'submit story' line breaks.

If you're that bothered about the bandwidth the page takes up, why aren't you turning off images? The alt text is provided for that purpose.

Lack of clear markings between stories is an issue, but personally I feel I've got enough visual clues as it is. Your Mileage May Vary.

Oh, and out of interest, what's changed with the comment headers? The story headers have changed (and I hope they will make the hotlist button clearer), but what's different in the comments?

P.S. Thanks for voting me down because you disagree with me. I would suggest reading the new FAQ, but someone seems to have left out the link in this redesign! Oh, there it is, right down the bottom.

--
I wish everyone was peaceful. Then I could take over the planet with a butter knife.
- Dogbert
[ Parent ]

Changes in Attitude, Changes in Latitude... (3.00 / 3) (#94)
by Robert Uhl on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 08:54:47 PM EST

I don't turn off images in general because in general I like them. Used properly, they're great. Used improperly, they are a foolish waste of bandwidth. MHO is that text images are tremendously dumb--others disagree.

My bad--I meant the headers along the right-hand side.

PS.: I moderated because I your post was wrong in that instance. Besides in that very FAQ you link to, a 2 is to be considered a normal post. I didn't mod less than that 'cause I love your quote:-)

[ Parent ]

My bad (3.00 / 2) (#143)
by leviathan on Sun Jan 14, 2001 at 01:46:49 PM EST

I see that section links have reverted to text now, so that's a dead issue (though I do note that they've lost their top and bottom black lines on this browser).

My bad about linking to the FAQ before reading it properly. I think 'normal / slightly inane' is probably a good description of my comment (the new FAQs guidelines on ratings differ markedly from the original FAQ, and I personally think them too prescriptive).

--
I wish everyone was peaceful. Then I could take over the planet with a butter knife.
- Dogbert
[ Parent ]

Logo is only problem (4.00 / 6) (#21)
by botono9 on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:00:15 PM EST

I like all the changes, and I only have issues with the logo. I don't think new comers will know what it is. You have to have seen the older logo first. But, otherwise, fabulous!


"Guns are real. Blue uniforms are real. Cops are social fiction."
--Robert Anton Wilson

Logo (3.33 / 6) (#27)
by rusty on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:04:28 PM EST

I'm of the opinion that the logo can be totally non-representational if it wants to be. I know it means "tacoma narrows bridge", and you know that, but it'll be our little secret. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
but (4.20 / 5) (#37)
by Wah on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:20:48 PM EST

the new bridge isn't even broken, it looks intact. Wasn't that the point of it?
--
Fail to Obey?
[ Parent ]
Because it has been fixed (3.00 / 2) (#101)
by Hillgiant on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 11:10:24 PM EST

Silly, I think that the logo redesign represents a new epoc in k5istory. We have finally put the DOS attack behind us.

Now if we could only do something about these dern troll and Anne Marie impersonators. =/


-----
"It is impossible to say what I mean." -johnny
[ Parent ]

logo breakage (3.50 / 3) (#76)
by Refrag on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 05:33:08 PM EST

Rusty, I'm getting a very small breakage between the logo image and the continuation of it in the navigation bar. I'm using IE5.5 in Windows 2000.

There had been a large break when you first put the new design up, but then you fixed it.

It appears to have broken again since you changed the separators on the submit story line.

Refrag

Kuro5hin: ...and culture, from the trenches
[ Parent ]

consistently? (3.50 / 3) (#78)
by rusty on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 05:43:42 PM EST

Is it consistently broken, or does it fix itself again?

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
it's worse than I thought (4.00 / 3) (#81)
by Refrag on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 05:51:49 PM EST

It's actually gets worse when I shrink my window's width. This is because you f'ed up your HTML. :) Setting the VALIGN attribute to bottom should fix it.

But, there is a consistent gap between the two images at all other times.

Refrag

Kuro5hin: ...and culture, from the trenches
[ Parent ]

How about now? (NT) (3.00 / 2) (#84)
by rusty on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 06:33:35 PM EST



____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Works fine now. (3.50 / 3) (#85)
by Refrag on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 06:39:50 PM EST

I see that VALIGN=Bottom solved the whole problem.

Refrag

Kuro5hin: ...and culture, from the trenches
[ Parent ]

once every two weeks? please? (3.50 / 2) (#106)
by anonymous cowerd on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 11:45:38 PM EST

Someone else in this thread says "the bridge has been fixed." But I thought of K5, in relation to that fine logo, as the potent wind instead.

I remember the very first time I saw K5, I said, "Wow! The Tacoma bridge doin' the hula! Far out!" Now that new compactified bridge logo is unusually cool, and I like it a lot, but as you say, it makes no sense at all unless you see it in relation to the old logo and through it the famous busted bridge itself. So can we maybe have the old logo just one day every two weeks, maybe every other Sunday, to keep the connection up? please?

Many thanks, Rusty, for presenting your fine blog, long may it wave.

Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net

"This calm way of flying will suit Japan well," said Zeppelin's granddaughter, Elisabeth Veil.
[ Parent ]

Yuck. (4.76 / 17) (#22)
by Volta on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:01:40 PM EST

This new format makes the articles on the front page run together too much. If you're going to have a bold line between the Title and the Intro copy, you should have an even bolder division between articles. As it is now, the intro text is blocked off with the headers for the next article, which is bad.

That, and I don't like the new logo. At all. What was wrong with the old design, anyway?

Run-ons (3.00 / 4) (#51)
by westgeof on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:03:28 PM EST

I agree, the way it is formatted now, it looks like the body is associated with the following title. It's easy enough to decipher what is supposed to go together, it's just a little disorientating.
Otherwise I like the layout, looks nice on my box.

As a child, I wanted to know everything. Now I miss my ignorance
[ Parent ]
lines in the diary list (4.55 / 9) (#24)
by ana on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:02:41 PM EST

Nice layout in general; I tend to be ilpicturate (can't read icons), but I even figured out what the hotlist + and - icons were about.

It's a bit disorienting to have a line in the middle of each person's entry on the "diaries" page, but no lines in between entries; makes it hard to tell at a glance which words & buttons etc. belong together.

Ana

Years go by; will I still be waiting
for somebody else to understand?
--Tori Amos

Re: lines in the diary list (4.50 / 6) (#33)
by YesNoCancel on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:11:57 PM EST

This is not just a problem with the diaries, it's also on the front page and all sections. I find it extremely disorienting; it makes these pages extraordinarily hard to read. Please, rusty, change this. A horizontal line is supposed to separate things that don't belong together, not things that are a unit.

[ Parent ]
article header (4.60 / 5) (#36)
by Refrag on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:15:08 PM EST

Yes, I'm thinking maybe the article headers should have a blue or silver background (kinda like the comment headers). And the horizontal rule should be between the articles.

Refrag

Kuro5hin: ...and culture, from the trenches
[ Parent ]

Not as clean (4.14 / 7) (#25)
by FyreFiend on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:02:58 PM EST

While it's not bad I prefer the old layout. It's hard to put into words but, IMO, the old layout looked cleaner.


--
Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial "we".
-- Mark Twain


Only one little problem (4.42 / 7) (#29)
by Karmakaze on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:06:36 PM EST

I'm browsing with Mozilla with the "Accept images that come from the originating server only" preference. (I find it kills the worst of the flashy-ads without killing everything).

The net result is that the navigation graphics are broken for me. In retrospect, I think it always did break images on k5, but I hadn't noticed much because so much was done with color and text links. All I really lost before was the logo. Of course, the text navigation is still there, but I notice now.

I did turn on the graphics and it does look, nice, though. I did like the old logo better, I think. And I agree with somebody else's comment about the bolding in the icons. I don't as much mind Everything being bolded, but I dislike having Diaries pop out like that.


--
Karmakaze
Auuugh! I was wrong! (4.80 / 5) (#44)
by Karmakaze on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:29:26 PM EST

First off, sorry for replying to my own reply.

I was wrong, the text navigation isn't still there! I saw the side naviagtion unchanged and the "submit story | etc..." across the top and thought it was topic navigation.

Do you guys have something against alt tags or something? If you're going to make a graphics-dependent menu, at least give us alt tags!


--
Karmakaze
[ Parent ]
THERE IS NO REASON TO HAVE ONLY GRAPHIC NAVIGATION (4.60 / 5) (#48)
by Anonymous 242 on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:36:35 PM EST

I hadn't noticed because at work, I tyically only use Netscape Navigator with graphics enabled. If I had viewed this on my laptop, where I predominantly use lynx, I'm certain that I'd have had a horrible experience. Everyone who designs pages should make certain that equivalent functionality exists for users of non-graphic browsers. If I can use Yahoo! Mail with lynx, I ought to be able to use k5!

Using only graphics fro navigation will also make the site useless for any sightless folk.

[ Parent ]

Kill the [spacer.gif] alt, too. (4.00 / 1) (#122)
by Kyrrin on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 09:00:19 AM EST

On such links as:

<td background="http://209.208.150.46/header/table_bkg.gif" align="center" height="22"><img src="http://209.208.150.46/header/spacer.gif" width="7" height="22" border="0"></td>

...toss in an 'ALT=""' so that it doesn't result like this in lynx:

[left_edge.gif] [spacer.gif] Everything [spacer.gif] Diaries [spacer.gif] Technology [spacer.gif] Culture [spacer.gif] Freedom & Politics [spacer.gif] Media [spacer.gif] News [spacer.gif] Internet [spacer.gif] Op-Ed [spacer.gif] Columns [spacer.gif] Meta [spacer.gif] MLP [rt_edge.gif]

Also, please fix the fact that the new design won't let you resize the window under a certain size without it breaking the logo and the navigation bar; I tend to browse with minimized windows.


"I'm the screen, the blinding light; I'm the screen, I work at night. I see today with a newsprint fray, my night is colored headache grey, don't wake me with so much..." -- REM
[ Parent ]
No poll? (4.37 / 8) (#30)
by elenchos on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:09:00 PM EST

I leave for ONE HOUR to go to a little meeting and this is what I find when I come back? Sheesh!

I could get used to the new design, but the bridge picture must go back to the way it was. The new one is just some bridge. The old one was a specific bridge, with a whole package of meaning built in; it was really clever. It said so much about hubris, complexity, unintended consequences...

And like I said, you would expect to see a poll for something like this...

But what do I know? My own web site looks like doo doo and no one goes there, so what does that tell you?

Adequacy.org

wow (3.50 / 4) (#32)
by Defect on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:11:47 PM EST

All the talk about the new logo is confusing me, that's one of my favorite new parts. 1 question though, is this the final version, or is it going to be made to look more like driph's initial mockup? I'd have to say i liked driph's mockup better, but this is still nice. Maybe a couple extra breaks and a very short horizontal rule between the stories when on the section pages would separate them better. But otherwise it looks pretty slick.
defect - jso - joseth || a link
The old one was better. (4.55 / 9) (#35)
by evvk on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:14:24 PM EST

The old was much prettier, in my opinion. There's a problem as well: the "navigation graphic" is way too wide to fit my browser window. Why does every web page designer always expect people to run the browser fullscreen or at least "landscape", put long graphics (why not piece them?) and then apply kludges to not make text lines short enough to be somehow readable in those wide browsers? My netscape window is 699 pixels wide and the shape of an A4 (portrait). Too many new media infected pages need to be scrolled horizontally, while the size is quite good for simple (and thus pretty and functional) pages.

Article header (4.55 / 9) (#39)
by pb on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:22:52 PM EST

I don't care if there isn't a hard rule at the top blocking off the article text when I'm in the article, but you seriously need ones to separate articles; otherwise, the white space just sucks.

Also, could you make this a preference? Like, just check "Old Layout", or something? :)
---
"See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
-- pwhysall
I /really/ like the new feel, but . . . (4.88 / 9) (#40)
by Anonymous 242 on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:23:03 PM EST

  1. As others have mentioned, the new sylized bridge in the log is quite bland. The bridge graphic used for the meta section, or the old k5 bridge graphic was vastly superior.
  2. Also as others have mentioned, the stories on the front page and in the diaries now bleed together. The title for stories are not seperated from the text of the preceding story. If someone happend to bold any text in the leader text, there will be virtually no discernable distinction. Perhaps use an <hr> at the top of stories instead of between the title and the leader.
  3. Ditch the bold text for the everything and diaries sections on the navigation bar. It is distracting and not useful.


my solution (4.33 / 3) (#67)
by ContinuousPark on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:48:51 PM EST

i agree with your second point. I think another solution would be to align the text saying "Full Story (xx comments, xx words in body)" to the right. That would leave a sufficient empty space between stories without enlarging the whole page, keeping it easy to scroll.

[ Parent ]
Ugh (4.72 / 11) (#43)
by Qtmstr on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:27:55 PM EST

This is extremely rococo, if I shall say, design. It adds absolutely nothing functional to the site while changing its entire look.

The old logo was *excellent*, and I see no reason to make it look like modern art viewed through a periscope. The section pages are also hideous, since many of the dividing lines have been removed or perverted. The new minimum width is also annoying.

The use of graphics for section navigiation when text will do is equally bad (especially since they are GIFs!). If users want antialiased text, they can use a browser that supports it. I suppose you've heard the phrase "A picture is worth a thousand words."

Well, guess what: In web page design, a picture is worth 100,000 words in size and says nothing more.

To be honest, I can't believe you spent time on this instead of useful features, like a truly customizable front page, customizeable boxes (like That Other Side), NNTP support, a killfile, etc.

Speaking of NNTP support, things like this make me want to implement K5 support in SLRN, or make a K5 NNTP server. Anyone want to help?


Kuro5hin delenda est!
Hmmm... (3.71 / 7) (#47)
by threemile on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:32:52 PM EST

I really like the section headings across the top, but abhor the logo change. Since the +/- headings are going to be changed I will hold off, but they really need a background color to seperate different stories.

Spookily... (3.25 / 4) (#49)
by itsbruce on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:44:05 PM EST

I'm running Windowmaker and browsing with Konqueror and this suits the themes I've set for both. I don't like the new bridge picture, though.


--

It is impolite to tell a man who is carrying you on his shoulders that his head smells.
Me too. ;-) (3.50 / 6) (#50)
by reshippie on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 03:55:27 PM EST

Nah, first my own thoughts.

A minor detail about the header. It feels kind of cramped, way up there in so little space. Perhaps just using a slightly bigger font.

Ok, as to what others have said:

  • Logo is fine, it's just a logo, we'll deal.
  • By now you've heard that we all need some way to separate the stories from each other.
  • Why go for a new design instead of different "Features" :)

Other than that, keep up the good work, you guys ROCK.

Those who don't know me, probably shouldn't trust me. Those who do DEFINITELY shouldn't trust me. :-)

Missing in action (3.60 / 5) (#52)
by aphrael on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:10:48 PM EST

a 'go back to front page' button.

Logo (3.33 / 4) (#61)
by reshippie on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:26:58 PM EST

If you click on the logo at the top, it takes you Home. Pretty standard on most pages, I've found.

Those who don't know me, probably shouldn't trust me. Those who do DEFINITELY shouldn't trust me. :-)
[ Parent ]
Can't say I like it (4.42 / 7) (#53)
by Tr3534 on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:10:56 PM EST

No comment on the graphics (can't see them), but I must say this layout renders rather poorly in my version of w3m. Ah well, not like people listen to those with text browsers anyway...


Sigmentation Fault: Post Dumped.
fine except... (4.50 / 4) (#72)
by YellowBook on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 05:03:48 PM EST

The "clear" images need to have an empty ALT -- right now they're fine in Lynx and links, but stick out like a sore thumb in w3m.



[ Parent ]
I do not like this.. (3.25 / 8) (#54)
by Carnage4Life on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:14:54 PM EST

...is there a chance that we can the old layout back?

I think you should move the SubjectLine (3.87 / 8) (#55)
by G Neric on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:15:07 PM EST

down and out of the grey box. I know, shocking, nobody else does it either.

But that's where you (and everybody else) has it on the Compose form which gives people the urge to begin a thought in the Subject line and complete it in the body of the message. I think that's great, no reason to fight the urge. But, it should be displayed that way too, because how many times have you stared at an inscrutable first line of a message before you realize that it started in the SubjectLine.

And, while you're at it, if someone presses submit with no subject line, put the error message about needing one on the screen instead of off... and maybe, stick the first line into the subjectline box as a default. Sometimes I can't think of one.

My thoughts (4.77 / 9) (#56)
by michaela on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:17:15 PM EST

  • I liked the old logo better.
  • On the main page, the intro for one story and the header for the next do not have enough visual separation. They wash together and make it hard to read.
  • The navbar is unfriendly with lower screen widths. I'm guessing, but it looks like the main page was designed as 640 pixels wide, but forgot to allow for window frames and scrollbars.

Other than those things, it looks great. I've always liked the readability of the site and with a couple tweaks this could be perfect.
--
That is all

Inconsistent headers (4.00 / 4) (#57)
by retinaburn on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:18:41 PM EST

The Front Page header looks different than the everything header. Should these not be more consistent.
Note: I quickly scanned the posts to see if this has already been addressed, my apologies if I missed it.


I think that we are a young species that often fucks with things we don't know how to unfuck. -- Tycho


Never mind (3.00 / 3) (#58)
by retinaburn on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:21:23 PM EST

I had hit reload to make sure...then I went back and it was consistent again ...bah!


I think that we are a young species that often fucks with things we don't know how to unfuck. -- Tycho


[ Parent ]
K5 Colouring Corner (4.50 / 6) (#59)
by vastor on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:24:23 PM EST

As others have pointed out, the titles for stories/diaries really need to go back to the blue bars with the white lettering to make for clearer divisions.

It just looks kind of odd now...

Putting the time/date info on the same line as the persons name might not hurt as well, though is probably pointless given the size of the icon to the right. But if you put it in the same line, you could then have where the time/date is now, direct links to their diary/comments/stories rather than just a single link in the name to the stories (which for example shows nothing for me, despite having done a fair number of comments and diary entries). Userinfo has a line all to itself in the comments, so the same thing could be done there. Though I suppose the biggest problem with this is that it'd bloat the pages even more (I'm not looking forward to visiting this site back on a modem connection, stories can exceed 1mb if you use the viewing options I use).

Is there any reason Diaries is in bold like Everything? Everything I can understand, but diaries seems a bit pointless.

I do however think the modernish looking bridge bit looks nice.

Might be nice to sort the sections by alphabetical order, though it looks like it's ordered by priority. Technology first, then Culture etc. Except Diaries is out of place going before them. Maybe put Diaries after MLP?

Perhaps the - icon listed in the hotlist column would be best removed, I almost clicked on it thinking it would take me to the story and could have done that and not realised it was unhotlisting it (just a userfriendliness issue).


Mostly useless post.. (4.00 / 7) (#60)
by AdamJ on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:25:53 PM EST

The new design just doesn't feel right.. it looks like it's trying too hard to be a new hip "clean" modern site, and I liked the semi-retro old design.

Sorry, guys. :/

...especially the logo (3.80 / 5) (#62)
by shellac on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:28:16 PM EST

Yeah, I definitely prefer the more retro look. Especially in regards to the logo. The old logo was just cooler looking.

Sorry yall.

shellac.

[ Parent ]
not bad (3.00 / 5) (#63)
by rebelcool on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:29:50 PM EST

the functional bits are the same, but the rest is refreshingly new. Woo.

COG. Build your own community. Free, easy, powerful. Demo site

Two things (3.75 / 8) (#64)
by Elendale on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:30:12 PM EST

This breaks operability with Lynx and other text-only browsers (AFAIK, as i don't use them- i just am assuming that the pretty pictures mean the text only browsers have a hard time with it). Secondly, if you're going to change the bridge (as many people are complaining about) why have it link back to k5? Make it link to a picture of the real Tacoma bridge so newbies realize what that picture is :)

-Elendale
---

When free speech is outlawed, only criminals will complain.


I'm using lynx now (3.66 / 4) (#65)
by adlr on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:40:05 PM EST

As for breaking compatability with lynx (or other text browsers), I'll just say that I'm writing this reply using lynx.
Normally I don't use the browser, but at least this proves that it works.

-andrew

[ Parent ]
it shouldn't (4.33 / 4) (#66)
by ContinuousPark on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:42:25 PM EST

because as I'm reading the html source, they properly use the ALT tags, so that for instance, the Culture button has associated the text "culture" and this is what the text browsers read, even the hotlist buttons have alt tags, that's very well done. And as for the bridge, I probably liked the old one better but I see one advantage to this one (or maybe it's just my perception): it is smaller and leaves more screen space for the actual content.

[ Parent ]
Black on white. (4.20 / 5) (#68)
by eLuddite on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:53:38 PM EST

Its a very nice, clean design but I continue to have issues with black text on a white background which has the effect of making me verrry sleepy. You dont see bleached paper in books, do you? There's a reason for that.

---
God hates human rights.

Small stuff... (4.33 / 3) (#69)
by mrjake008 on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:55:52 PM EST

I like the old bridge better, but this one's not too bad. Also, from a functional point of view, I don't see the point of making the section titles images (especially GIFs). I think they were 'clean' enough as text.

One other thing: the "submit story | your account | help | links | search | IRC | K5 Store" bar would look better if it were right-justified. As it is, it looks crowded right up against the logo.

That's all, good work guys.



top navbar "breaks" (4.00 / 3) (#70)
by CanSpice on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 04:58:56 PM EST

If you check out my desktop (over on the right) you'll see that the navbar at the top of the front page breaks up. This is IE5.00 under Windows 2000. But, here's the rub: as soon as you resize the window or move another window on top of it, the navbar works. *shrug*
--- I don't have a sig.
Win 98 - IE 5.0 does the same thing. (NT) (3.66 / 4) (#73)
by nospoon on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 05:22:11 PM EST


'Desire that is Friday'
[ Parent ]
Others (3.50 / 3) (#96)
by Rand Race on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 09:15:38 PM EST

NetPositive 2.2 and Opera 3.6 on BeOS 5 do it as well but it won't go away, although IE5 on MacOS X and MacOS 9 do not do it at all.


"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]

Update (none / 0) (#151)
by Rand Race on Wed Jan 17, 2001 at 05:23:16 PM EST

Latest revision has fixed it in all the browsers I use. The new look is starting to grow on me. The lack of anti-aliasing on the logo bothers me a bit, but that's about it.


"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]

probably redundant, didn't look over the posts muc (4.00 / 3) (#71)
by goosedaemon on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 05:03:15 PM EST

But on the front page, it's difficult for me to differentiate between one article entry and another in the central area. Perhaps a clearer heading, like a box or something, instead of just white and thicker black text.

As others have said... (3.75 / 4) (#74)
by GandalfGreyhame on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 05:25:19 PM EST

New bridge looks like shit. Blah. And whoever doesn't know what it should be, it just looks like a funky bunch of lines.

The topic/section links as graphics, blah. I prefer text, I think it looks better. Don't like the hip/new/cool design, prefer the old one.

-G

Better and worse (5.00 / 8) (#75)
by MrSpey on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 05:25:35 PM EST

I'll preface my comment by saying that probably everything I'm going to say has already been said by someone else already. But since the K5 crew (K5rew?) wants to know my opinion, I'll give it to them.

What I like:
  • The change in the text across the top of the page seems to have gotten smaller, giving more real estate to the articles. I like the feel it gives to the page, like it's trying to get out of the way for the really important stuff, the articles.
  • I really like the hotlist buttons. I know you're going to change them, but I still like them. Though I initially confused them with some sort of rating system.
  • I also like the slightly cleaner look. Again, it puts more focus more on the articles than the previous layout, which is good. After all, if we're not here to read the articles and comment on them, why are we here?
What I do not like:
  • Those graphics in the navigation bar. It's cool the way the scale a little bit as you resize the page, but there's just no reason for them. The same thing could be acomplished with a font tag and a grey background in the table cell. I don't notice the d/l time here at work, but the render time is noticably higher at times (especially when I'm listening to mp3's and have Eudora, Excel, Word, and Power Point open). But I have a feeling that when I get home I'll have to wait to choke all of them down my dialup. I could understand if they were iconic, or a combination of icon and text, but just text shouldn't be a picture.
  • Why the bolding of the Everything and Diary entries? I'm sure every here can find what they want. Or if you want to differentiate them from the regular section put them somewhere else on the page.
  • The bridge. I don't care if we go back to the old logo or not, but I just don't like the new one. Show that the bridge is falling down, or else it doesn't make any sense. It would be like /. choosing the Hoover Dam as it's logo.
  • Something needs to be done to seperate one story from another on the front page. It looks like the title, author, and date section at the beginning of each article is some sort of footer to the story above it.
Overall, I think the new look is good. The details keep it from being great, but I think it's an improvement over the old layout overall.

Mr. Spey
Cover your butt. Bernard is watching.

i agree, except about the logo. (3.20 / 5) (#82)
by kellan on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 05:53:05 PM EST

I agree w/ everything except the comment about the logo. I really like the logo, simple, bold, iconic.

I think the links across the top are a vast improvement over the stacks of links in the old look, but they should be test.

And the stories bleed together.

Kellan

[ Parent ]

It's just a bridge (4.00 / 2) (#83)
by MrSpey on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 06:10:12 PM EST

If it looked like was falling down then I wouldn't mind the change of style. I agree that it looks bold and simple and that this is good, but it doesn't look like it's falling down. It could even not look like the Tacoma Narrows bridge, so long as it's structurally failing. If it isn't falling down then its meaning changes a lot and I think it loses a lot of significance and coolness that way.

Mr. Spey
Cover your butt. Bernard is watching.

[ Parent ]
I agree, to an extent. (4.50 / 4) (#97)
by FunkyChild on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 09:40:26 PM EST

- I like the bar across the top. I think it looks much cooler, and it doesn't detract from the functionality as far as I can see. However, I'd like to see how they turn out, just as plain text. It may not be too much different and it would help the people complaining about scrollbars on their puny little browser windows ;)

- Hotlist buttons are good, but perhaps the big slabs of black in them dominate a bit too much. Perhaps change the black to that dark blue colour in the background of the 'hotlist' header thing?

- I much prefer the old logo, but I like the way this circle extends into the bar below. Perhaps if you tried putting the old logo in the circle or something? To add my voice to the millions of others: the Tacoma Narrows Bridge isn't recognisable, and I think that's not a good thing. I loved the irony of having that as a logo, and I fear it's getting lost in this funky new De Stijl-ish creation.

- The layout of the main page looks nice, but yes, the stories need to be separated more. It's a bit of a mess right now, and the eye just wanders down the page. It makes it hard to skim through the subject headers of the articles, because they're not very well defined.

- Un-bold the Diary button.


-- Today is the tomorrow that you worried about yesterday. And now, you know why.
[ Parent ]
Don't like it... (4.20 / 5) (#77)
by k5er on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 05:34:59 PM EST

I don't like the new layout. The new logo sucks. The text across the screen linking to the other sections is okay, but I prefer the old way. As for the story layout, it is confusing. The line should separate each story, not the headline from the story.
Long live k5, down with CNN.
re: Don't like it (4.33 / 3) (#89)
by 31: on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 08:10:28 PM EST

You mean the .gifs across the screen... which are anti-aliased worse than my browser did it by quite a bit...

and then to bitch even further... why gifs? Ignoring for the moment the whole neatness of being able to resize things so they're more visible/readable, 1. unisys, and their whole nastiness in gifs should make most people not use them, and 2. even if you don't care about that sorta stuff, pngs are sooooo much better. If you're using pics for text anyway... and isn't that on the 10 worst web design list too? I mean, they aren't even for a fancy font, or stylized text... as most browsers that can do images can *ahem* do bold text too...

and everyone else has bitched about the fact that the stories all run together... well, at least it's made it so i spend more time working, and less time reading...

-Patrick
[ Parent ]
Defence of the bridge logo (3.75 / 4) (#79)
by squigly on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 05:50:05 PM EST

I like the way the bottom of the circle overlaps into the table. Although I don't really like the image. The old K5 logo was one of the worlds most famous bridges. A stylised version of the K5 topic icon would make it clearer. The other small reservation I have is the minimalist style clashes with the detail of the photos used for topic icons.

--
People who sig other people have nothing intelligent to say for themselves - anonimouse
Problem (4.00 / 4) (#80)
by SbooX on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 05:50:55 PM EST

There does not seem to be any easy way of telling the difference between the intro and extended text. In the ond design there was a line separating the two, but now its just a bit of space that many could interperet as someone using the <br> tag too much. I would suggest putting the line back in or better yet, implement one of the suggestions that was discussed here. (I would recommend my suggestion, but I might be a bit biased.)

I guess I'll also chime in on the logo debate. I hate the new one (no offense Driph). There.

---

god is silly. MGL 272:36

That is exactly what I was going to say........... (3.00 / 3) (#86)
by Educated Escort on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 06:51:21 PM EST

Hi Rusty, While you know I love the site and hope to help get it some more press (although some might not like the press I think any press is good press) Anyway I just got off subject (isn't THIS a fun post?)

I must agree with sbooX (that isn't shoebOX is it?) that I think the line is in the wrong place.

It looks as if the end of one person's story is part of the beginning of the next person's.

I asked a few resident geeks and others here in Sunny California and they agreed.

But besides that it looks wonderful :))

Anne Marie


"It has become appallingly clear that our technology has surpassed our humanity"

Albert Einstein


[ Parent ]

Same old and one more (4.40 / 5) (#88)
by Sheepdot on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 07:46:11 PM EST

I'm going to be like a lot of people here and say the seperation between text and title is too defined while the seperation between one story and the next is not defined at all. That is the first things I noticed and I'm amazed that it was overlooked when the new layout was done, I hope it was a mistake and that wasn't the actual design that was intended.

Also, I could of sworn there was a link that said "FAQ" at the top of the screen. I do see one at the bottom, but apparently "help" and "FAQ" are the same, they point to the same page, oddly labeled, "Frequently Asked Questions".

And finally, I remember somewhere on this site a story about the bridge that used to be pictured in the k5 logo. You might want to get rid of that story since the bridge is no longer in the logo.


I don't like the new design because.. (4.00 / 3) (#90)
by boxed on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 08:23:34 PM EST

...I still have to use color override not to be blinded! Plus that the old design actually went along a bit nicer with color override.

Please make a darkness option so I can turn off color override! I would be eternally in your dept rusty.



Use CSS classes so we can write user style sheets (4.94 / 17) (#91)
by driptray on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 08:23:42 PM EST

Here's an idea that will please every K5 user that likes to tinker, and have no ill effects on the rest. It will even make it super easy for Rusty et al to change the default look of the site in the future.

The basic idea is that each element of the K5 web page(s) should be given a CSS class. The class names should be something unique to K5, for example, "K5_subject", "K5_author", "K5_navbar" etc.

K5 users will then be able to write user style sheets that assign fonts, colours, borders, margins etc etc to each element of the K5 site. Each user can then view the site the way they want to view it. Users could even post their user style sheets to their diaries, and thus swap them among other users. Rusty could even offer a number of default user style sheets for people to plug into their browsers. This would allow much greater flexibility than the current "Do you want size 2 or size 3 font?" and "What font do you want?" questions that really only replicate most browser functionality anyway.

Most people will not go to the effort to write a user style sheet, but that doesn't matter. Some will, and it is trivially easy to copy somebody else's CSS into your own. And if you can't be bothered all that will happen will be that you get the default K5 "look" that we currently have.

Lets empower the user to take control over the way that information is presented to them. Let each user's rendering of K5 have a glorious individualistic look of its own!


--
We brought the disasters. The alcohol. We committed the murders. - Paul Keating
I likes it. (4.60 / 5) (#98)
by Holloway on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 10:14:01 PM EST

I likes it. I likes it a lot. But K5_* isn't unique.

If users could input an URL pointing to a CSS file, which would be included in the top part of their session (LINK REL= URL=), well it'd have a few benefits.

  • It allows people to share their CSS file (so those who don't know CSS can still make use of it). This input URL option in the preferences could have a list of user contributed (and hosted) CSS files.
  • It'd remove the K5_* bit (in practical use I doubt if there would be another K5_blah, but one wouldn't design a database that way; hoping nothing conflicts).
  • By removing the class="K5_blah" you also trim the size of the HTML down. For every P,TABLE,BODY tag having a class="k5_blah" this would be a significant saving.

I think there are a few CSS compatible browers that don't allow personal stylesheets. Ho-hum.

If I do a minimal template Rusty, would you want it?


== Human's wear pants, if they don't wear pants they stand out in a crowd. But if a monkey didn't wear pants it would be anonymous

[ Parent ]

You'd still need the classes (4.33 / 3) (#105)
by driptray on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 11:27:41 PM EST

If users could input an URL pointing to a CSS file, which would be included in the top part of their session (LINK REL= URL=), well it'd have a few benefits.

This is an excellent idea and is much cleaner than the way I originally suggested.

It'd remove the K5_* bit...

I still think the classes are necessary. Currently there is very little structural markup in K5's HTML, and to get a fine-grained layout using CSS you're gonna need classes to do that. Look at whats at the top of each article posted:

  • Subject
  • Ratings
  • Post #
  • Author
  • Author's email
  • Date
  • Author's URL

All of these need classes and would be inside something like a <DIV class="K5_articleheaders">.

If you don't have classes for each of these then how can you use an external CSS file to control how they are rendered?

By removing the class="K5_blah" you also trim the size of the HTML down. For every P,TABLE,BODY tag having a class="k5_blah" this would be a significant saving.

Yeah, the bloat is the only drawback, but its not so bad. Of course if the bloated table structure was replaced with the CSS + classes then we wouldn't have a problem.


--
We brought the disasters. The alcohol. We committed the murders. - Paul Keating
[ Parent ]
I agree about classes. (5.00 / 3) (#112)
by Holloway on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 03:26:27 AM EST

Yes, you're right.

What I meant about dropping the class="k5_" bit was just the k5_ prefix, as it wouldn't be necessary anymore. The stylesheet won't be being used for anything but K5. You could just have class="articleheader" now.

Kuro5hin seems to overuse tables to get bgcolors working (you can achive the same thing with HTML block elements in CSS). For example, the 'Sponsors' bit at the top right of every page could be done as an h5 tag with the CSS definition

HTML: <Sponsors>

CSS:
h5{
  background: #058;
  border: 1px black solid}
.

As opposed to the current

<TABLE WIDTH="100%" BORDER=0 CELLPADDING=1 CELLSPACING=0 BGCOLOR="#000000"> <TR><TD WIDTH="100%"> <TABLE WIDTH="100%" BORDER=0 CELLPADDING=1 CELLSPACING=0 BGCOLOR="#006699"> <TR><TD WIDTH="100%"> <FONT FACE="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif" COLOR="#FFFFFF" SIZE=2>Sponsors</FONT> </TD></TR></TABLE> </TD></TR></TABLE>

What needs to be defined: (isn't this nice, Rusty's given us a new site and we can only quibble over how to change it :)

    Posts
  • Post information header thing: is a table, drop in class="post_header"
  • title: a span class="post_title".
  • ratings: is a link, drop a class into the anchor tag.
  • post#ID: is a link, ditto.
  • author_name: a span class="post_author_name"
  • author_email: is a link, drop a class="post_author_email" into the anchor tag.
  • author_link: is a link, drop a class="post_author_link" into the anchor tag.

    These same things apply to story header information.
    K5 Template
  • The "Submissions: 5 new" needs a span class="submission_new".
  • The various "replying to", "post a comment" can be done as Hx tags with some CSS.
Now what other class definitions am I missing? Much of the rest is just defining the P tag, or the Body tag, and doesn't need a class to be altered (I assume people don't want a different font in story to comments - how fine-grained do we get until it's unnessary bloat for the reason that someone might use it?).


== Human's wear pants, if they don't wear pants they stand out in a crowd. But if a monkey didn't wear pants it would be anonymous

[ Parent ]
Correction: (3.00 / 1) (#114)
by Holloway on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 03:32:13 AM EST

The HTML: <Sponsor> was meant to be,

HTML: <h4>Sponsors<h4>


== Human's wear pants, if they don't wear pants they stand out in a crowd. But if a monkey didn't wear pants it would be anonymous

[ Parent ]

wow, two-in-one (3.66 / 3) (#93)
by confidential on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 08:50:18 PM EST

well today my favorite page (Livejournal) did a major update as well, though they knew the onslaught of "gah! boo! hiss!" was going to be large from the "oldschool" faction of lj. They offer an option of changing back to older styles. There was a comment above talking about letting users create their own CSS... that would be quite spifft as well ^_^

well, since you asked (2.75 / 4) (#95)
by el_guapo on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 09:02:07 PM EST

i really like nothing about the new look. the layout, the graphics, i definitely vote it down.....
mas cerveza, por favor mirrors, manifestos, etc.
Mostly redundant (4.50 / 4) (#99)
by antizeus on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 10:20:49 PM EST

When I read k5 at work I'm not logged in. In that case, the problem with the separation of the articles becomes much more pronounced. When I'm logged in, at least I have the hotlist +/- graphics to provide a visual clue (it's next to the beginning of the article element), but this is lacking when not logged in.

Some people suggested a user option which allows for a choice of page designs. In addition, I would like a rather plain alternative much like slashdot's "Light Mode". Use the default browser colors in this mode.

Other than that, I'll echo the comments of many others... The new bridge disturbs me, article separation needs work, use text instead of images-of-text in the navigation bar (see also the light mode suggestion), try not to impose a minimum width on the browser window.
-- $SIGNATURE

curious... (3.00 / 2) (#103)
by vsync on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 11:21:01 PM EST

Are cookies forbidden where you work?

--
"The problem I had with the story, before I even finished reading, was the copious attribution of thoughts and ideas to vsync. What made it worse was the ones attributed to him were the only ones that made any sense whatsoever."
[ Parent ]
cookies at work (3.00 / 1) (#113)
by cryosis on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 03:30:27 AM EST

Are cookies forbidden where you work?

Probably not but maybe they have to share their box at work with another shift and don't want to worry about having to logout every day. Just a thought on my part.

[ Parent ]

Different suggestion (3.50 / 4) (#100)
by slaytanic killer on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 10:30:57 PM EST

Can you make an option to review stories which were voted down? Trundling through peoples' old comments, I've found that there were many disturbingly interesting articles which were voted down for one reason or another.

If this is not possible or a good idea, please reply. I'm sure that it could be possible to make them read-only, if that's a problem.

One major complaint (4.60 / 5) (#102)
by Ixokai on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 11:14:29 PM EST

.. and my only one, too, actually.
In the article list, there is a horizontal line between the 'header' of the post and then the summary of the post itself. That is great, except that when glancing/reading over it quickly, it makes the header look like it is a part of the previous message.. since only a blank line seperates them. It just _looks_ confusing/bad.. I have to pause and think a bit to organize my midn on it.. the Hotlist icon helps a bit, but if i'm not logged in, its not there, and its all the harder.
--Ix

Feedback (4.25 / 4) (#104)
by Eloquence on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 11:26:45 PM EST

First, I'm happy with the logo (it's good that it is not immediately apparent what it represents), but don't change it too often - logos are an important part of a site's feeling and the way people remember it. I liked the old one, too, and I think changing it was unnecessary.

Second, at least in Netscape, the space between stories on the front page seems to be enough to separate them. See no reason for further lines.

Third, the Hotlist-button is distracting, especially in the Hotlist itself. Make it brighter.

Fourth, the GIF navigation bar is somewhat evil. The same could be accomplished using text within tables (granted, the overlap with the logo would be a bit tricky, but I think it should be possible). I'm browsing at 1152*864, but people with lower resolutions will likely be pissed of by horizontal scroll bars.

All in all, I think K5 is developing its unique style, much more sophisticated than Slashdot. Good work, I like it.
--
Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
spread the word!

The logo, etc (4.50 / 2) (#119)
by driph on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 07:32:05 AM EST

First, I'm happy with the logo (it's good that it is not immediately apparent what it represents), but don't change it too often - logos are an important part of a site's feeling and the way people remember it. I liked the old one, too, and I think changing it was unnecessary.
The funny thing is, the first time we introduced the logo that everyone is now familiar with, the level of flack was just about the same as it is now.. I wanted to incorporate one last logo change(while keeping the original elements of the idea) that would allow for a more easily reproduced image(esp print) and an icon that would symbolize kuro5hin from a quick glance..
Fourth, the GIF navigation bar is somewhat evil. The same could be accomplished using text within tables (granted, the overlap with the logo would be a bit tricky, but I think it should be possible). I'm browsing at 1152*864, but people with lower resolutions will likely be pissed of by horizontal scroll bars.
Yeah, I originally built it with images for the antialiasing(down to an 800x600 resolution), but as I said in a comment above, the quick change to text seems to work.. and once we change the table structure to fit text better, it should be fine..
All in all, I think K5 is developing its unique style, much more sophisticated than Slashdot. Good work, I like it.
Thanks... that's what I was trying to accomplish with the original mockup .. to move away a bit from the traditional web log design and give K5 it's own look, while keeping all the elements in place... we'll see..

--
Vegas isn't a liberal stronghold. It's the place where the rich and powerful gamble away their company's pension fund and strangle call girls in their hotel rooms. - Psycho Dave
[ Parent ]
Bring back the old logo! (4.66 / 9) (#107)
by Numenius on Fri Jan 12, 2001 at 11:46:56 PM EST

The new one is very flat and dull. The old one had subtlety to it: I really liked the fact the old one was just a tweaked photograph of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, which when rendered in bluish tones had the sense of existential ambiguity that is at the heart of what K5 is all about . ;)

Also, as many others have commented, the horizontal lines between the article date info and the article intros do not work at all graphically. It looks like the U.S. Dept. of Justice search and seizure article has something to do with K5's New Layout!

Graphics of text (4.90 / 11) (#108)
by driptray on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 12:13:45 AM EST

Many people have commented that they don't like the graphics of text. I agree with them and here's why:

  • No indication of visited links - HTML has this really nifty feature whereby visited links are coloured differently from unvisited links. This is great - you can see at a glance where you've been.

    But when unbordered graphics are used as links this feature is lost, resulting in much lower usability of the site.

  • No text resizing - HTML has this really nifty feature whereby users can set a default font size that is comfortable for them. This is great - if your eyesight isn't perfect you can increase your font size to make it just right for you.

    But if graphics of text are used you're stuck with the font size the web designer liked.

  • No choice of font or colour - HTML has this really nifty feature whereby users can set a default font, and default colours. This is nice for people who have strong preferences for certain fonts or colours, or who may be colour blind.

    But if graphics of text are used you cannot have control over this, and usability may suffer.

  • And finally, Bandwidth - Text is quick and cheap, graphics are slow and expensive.

There are two themes here. One is that by using graphics of text you are throwing away a lot of neat HTML features that you normally get for free. The other is that graphics of text represent a transfer of control over the "look" of the page from the user to the designer.


--
We brought the disasters. The alcohol. We committed the murders. - Paul Keating
Don't forget navigability (4.00 / 1) (#109)
by Dragonboy on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 02:01:28 AM EST

Also, people who have non-same-server images blocked (like me), or just set not to load, see nothing whatsoever.

Mozilla is currently showing only the top two pixels of what may be meant as alt text. It's just as well that I've the status bar on.

Count me in as vote for the old design being more usable, not to mention aesthetic.

[ Parent ]

That's bad browser behaviour (3.50 / 2) (#111)
by driptray on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 02:58:21 AM EST

Mozilla is currently showing only the top two pixels of what may be meant as alt text.

What's the point of ALT text if the browser won't display it properly? Mozilla is doing something terribly wrong if it is not able to show you the ALT text of an image that is not displayed. IE is similarly retarded.

If you check out Opera you'll see a better implementation of ALT text display.


--
We brought the disasters. The alcohol. We committed the murders. - Paul Keating
[ Parent ]
It's an acknowledged bug (3.00 / 1) (#146)
by Dragonboy on Sun Jan 14, 2001 at 06:04:19 PM EST

Namely, Bugzilla entries 62046 and 63916.

Mozilla's alt display is limited to within the dimensions declared for the image, if declared, in the default font. So, while I see the full text for the logo, sponsors and topics, that of the former navbar and bottom buttons gets cut off with my 16px/96dpi settings until I change the text size.

It'd be nice to get it fixed soon, but I'm not too concerned. Imho, if an image's area is too small to hold its description, then whatever it shows probably isn't essential viewing.

Opera's my backup browser. It has features I wish Mozilla had, but graphics aren't that important to me, and Opera 5 still doesn't do Unicode, which is.

Alex

[ Parent ]

feedback (4.85 / 7) (#110)
by evro on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 02:30:43 AM EST

I liked it way better when stories were in little boxes. It's a lot harder to parse visually now.
---
"Asking me who to follow -- don't ask me, I don't know!"
Thanks for changing the links. (4.50 / 2) (#115)
by Holloway on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 06:42:24 AM EST

Hey Rusty!

Thanks for changing the sections to text... but you have unveiled a more sinister monster that couldn't be seen before.

The table cells have a background image (http://209.208.150.46/header/table_bkg.gif) that does not scale with font size (it tiles down the cell). If you have a font size higher than 22 pixels you'll get a black line through the middle of your text.

The streets will run red with blood of the web designers.


== Human's wear pants, if they don't wear pants they stand out in a crowd. But if a monkey didn't wear pants it would be anonymous

ps. (4.00 / 1) (#116)
by Holloway on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 06:44:49 AM EST

Oh and if you add a valign="top" to the bottom graphic's cell of the K5 logo - it'll won't be pulled apart by large font sizes.


== Human's wear pants, if they don't wear pants they stand out in a crowd. But if a monkey didn't wear pants it would be anonymous

[ Parent ]
Heh.. re: text header (4.00 / 1) (#117)
by driph on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 07:18:04 AM EST

Yeah, I'm gonna rebuild the header structure to work better with text.. the text was just popped in tonite to see how it'd look.. it works, so the next step will be making it work on any setup..

Also, I've noticed the strange browser bug where table bkg images randomly dont render until you resize, scroll, etc.. So I'm gonna take care of that as well..

--
Vegas isn't a liberal stronghold. It's the place where the rich and powerful gamble away their company's pension fund and strangle call girls in their hotel rooms. - Psycho Dave
[ Parent ]
The section links (4.00 / 2) (#118)
by evvk on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 07:20:32 AM EST

The section links now fit my browser window but they're broken. Instead of (bad ascii illustration follows -- why not allow <pre>?)

_________
[ foo | bar ]
--------

they look like

____________
[_foo_][_ bar_]


Re: Text Header (4.66 / 3) (#120)
by driph on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 07:39:35 AM EST

Hey all... might see a few oddities with the header until tomorrow, as the text change was something done on the fly and the tables havent been rebuilt for it..

For example, some browsers seem to do really strange things with table background images such as not rendering them until the window is scrolled or resized in anyway, or another window is placed over it..

Offhand, I really like the idea that was suggested below for pluggable CSS... that's something to think about in the future..

Also, I'm glad to see everyone voicing their opinion on the layout.. you're being heard.. :]

--
Vegas isn't a liberal stronghold. It's the place where the rich and powerful gamble away their company's pension fund and strangle call girls in their hotel rooms. - Psycho Dave
A simple question... (3.80 / 5) (#121)
by k5er on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 07:49:52 AM EST

Here are my questions..

1) What was wrong with the old design/logo/layout?

2) Why the change?

3) Why not just change it back since everyone likes it that way instead of going through the hassle of re-coding everything to work properly when no one like it?
Long live k5, down with CNN.
Nice. but... (3.00 / 3) (#123)
by Girf on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 09:05:19 AM EST

I like the new header, it takes up much less screen real estate now; however when viewing it in Lynx a alt tage of '|' would be nice for the spacer gif; increases readablity.

Also, the actual stories on the front page seem to be missing something, they seem very bare. A background or something might help.



HTML links are a step in the right direction (4.33 / 6) (#124)
by adlr on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 10:41:53 AM EST

But there are a couple problems. the underlining needs to be fixed. This is definetely an improvement b/c i used to have to scroll my window to the right. screenshot: http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~adlr/k51.jpg

I guess I prefer the screwed up underlining to the images you just took down.

Also, do you think that people could be able to choose to have the old layout or the new? personally, I like the old one much better.

-andrew



slightly worse here. (3.00 / 3) (#127)
by YellowBook on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 01:54:49 PM EST

Underlining is funny, and the logo gets broken in two, also. Screenshot here. I like the new logo better than the last one though -- both moderne and you can tell what the bridge is.



[ Parent ]
Possible solution (4.00 / 2) (#130)
by Zarniwoop on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 04:21:51 PM EST

I get the same result in any browser, including IE5.5. If you browse with a window of ~640x480, the navbar degrades.

What's going on is that "Freedom & Politics" is wrapping onto two to three lines, so it distorts the whole navbar. I think one solution would be to use a table nowrap. The only thing I can see that would make this less-than-ideal is that it will constrict the width at a certain point. Of course, replying to a post at the same browser size does the same thing right now...

I'd say just use the nowrap, so if it gets to a certain point, the text doesn't go onto two lines and mess up the formatting.

[ Parent ]

"Whoa!..." (4.00 / 4) (#125)
by WWWWolf on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 01:47:13 PM EST

"Whoa!... Driph, you scared the bejesus out of me."

Well, paraphrasings aside... I wasn't here yesterday and when I got there today I was a bit surprised... The new design is definitely not bad, but then again, it's just a slightly improved version of original. (Then again, I don't think every web site should be redesigned every week - if it works, don't fix it =) I like the improved logo graphic. Also, the +/- buttons stand out, which is good. (Newbies may not like it. <a title="Add this article to your hotlist" ...>...???)

But I really, really like the new section bar... I could never quite decide on which order I would read the sections, this will leave no thrill of decision *g* Also, it's visually more pleasing.

-- Weyfour WWWWolf, a lupine technomancer from the cold north...


Link Bar at Top (4.33 / 3) (#126)
by Captain Derivative on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 01:54:48 PM EST

First of all, good change with the bridge logo. It looks much better now, and even though I still prefer the old one, I'm not going to complain about this one.

However, some work still needs to be done with the link bar at the top of pages. The text-only links are an improvement, but why does Freedom & Politics take up a third of the entire bar at 1024x768 resolution? Experimenting with the window's width shows that it expands to fill up the available width. Is there a way to distribute this over all the links so that they're evenly spaced? Or maybe put "Everything" in the middle? I suggest that because right now it looks as though F&P has some special emphasis. (Disclaimer: This happens only in Opera 5.01 and not IE 5.5, so it could be a browser bug and not an actual problem in your code. So this might turn out to be irrelevant.)

There's still a problem with minimum width, though. If you shrink the width enough, the top and bottom lines in the "I" spacers break away from the horizontal lines bordering the link bar. If you continue shrinking it, the bottom horizontal line gets superimposed over the words in the links, making them appear as though they're in a <S> tag or something. Might there be a way to fix this? (At least, this is what happens in both Opera 5.01 and IE 5.5.) It seems to happen when Freedom & Politics has to word wrap to fit in its little box.

Overall, I'm starting to like the new layout, although I'm still of the opinion that the old one wasn't broken.


--
Hey! Why aren't you all dead yet?! Oh, that's right, it's only Tuesday. -- Zorak


Story titles are too big (3.66 / 3) (#128)
by krogoth on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 02:03:40 PM EST

They should be only a bit bigger than normal text (IMHO)...they look too big now. The size they were before was good.
--
"If you've never removed your pants and climbed into a tree to swear drunkenly at stuck-up rich kids, I highly recommend it."
:wq
Macintosh Users (me, for one) (4.00 / 4) (#131)
by J'raxis on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 04:48:31 PM EST

The Topic button text is illegibly small on Macintosh (thanks for changing it from images, BTW).

When you specify font size in stylesheets, unless you explicitly use the px measurement, the text is much smaller than it appears on other platforms.

I think the approximate conversions work out something like this (PC to Mac):

8pt -> 9pt
9pt -> 10pt
10pt -> 12pt
12pt -> 14pt
18pt -> somewhere closer to 24pt

As you can see, there is no such thing as a readable "8" or "7 point" font on Macintosh, even though these are common "small" typesizes on PCs. The smallest Macintosh fonts are "9 point", which equates to 10 or sometimes 11 on PCs.

-- The MacUser Raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]

Point is a standard measure (3.00 / 2) (#132)
by irksome on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 05:11:29 PM EST

A point is a standard measure. 1 pt = 1/72 inch


I think I am, therefore I'm not.
[ Parent ]
The pt's not the problem (4.00 / 2) (#133)
by J'raxis on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 06:18:01 PM EST

It's the difference in the screen resolution standards on Macs and PCs. PCs' finer 96-dpi makes their larger pointsizes appear the same size, onscreen, as a Mac with a 72-dpi monitor.

The fallback with using px is that on some older versions of Windows and with some printers, it interprets px also as an individual printer pixel (dot), which makes "12px" unreadable on, say, a 300dpi (300 "pixels" per inch) printer.

So, if you're making a website for printing, use pt. If you think it's going to be primarily read on-screen, use a px.

If you're using stylesheets, the <LINK REL...> tag has a MEDIA attribute that (if browsers do/will understand it correctly) will choose the right stylesheet for the right media. For example, MEDIA can be set to SCREEN or PRINTER or TTY.


[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]
[ Parent ]

size of point (4.00 / 3) (#134)
by htom on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 06:19:00 PM EST

A point is indeed a standard measure, but only on Macs and in some PostScript uses is it 1/72 inch.

A point is 0.013837 inch. There are 72.27 points in an inch.



Col. Jeff Cooper's First Rule of firearm safety: Always treat every firearm as if it's loaded. Always.
[ Parent ]
Bzzzt - Wrong! (4.00 / 3) (#135)
by General_Corto on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 06:20:33 PM EST

The problem is that Macs and PCs work on different DPIs. A PC running Windows works on 96 dpi, whereas a Mac works on 72 (as you alluded to above). YMMV with regards X Windows.

See this article at webmonkey for more details about the pain that web text really is.


I'm spying on... you!
[ Parent ]
Fly shite (4.00 / 1) (#138)
by evvk on Sun Jan 14, 2001 at 05:49:42 AM EST

The current section header texts are the size of a fly shit in my X11 netscape. One really needs a magnifying class to read actual text of that size. Here, it doesn't matter that much (at least the header isn't too wide anymore) but unfortunately too many web pages use <font size=1> for body or other more important text.
Windows > Mac > X11 font size. Or maybe X11 and Mac were generally the other way around but <font size=1> is actually smaller in X11 because of the fonts --- scaling disallowed in netscape (because it is ugly) so a smaller font is chosen.

[ Parent ]
small, but... (4.00 / 1) (#140)
by rusty on Sun Jan 14, 2001 at 07:07:18 AM EST

They are small but still completely readable in netscape (4.74/X11) for me. I have xfstt serving truetype fonts, which work very well in netscape (way better than the adobe unscalable fonts). If you want it to look nice, give that a try.

I did make them that small with the knowlege that on some platforms they'd be uncomfortably small, though. The tradeoff is that the bar fits on a smaller screen, and I decided to let them be small because you only need to read them once, basically. They're on every single page, so, IME, you stop actually reading them pretty quickly. I promise not to shuffle them around much though. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Monitor representation is NOT standard. (none / 0) (#150)
by t on Mon Jan 15, 2001 at 10:48:59 PM EST

Everyone is confused, regardless of the various definitions of points and how they are technically different on whatever platform is irrelevant. Why? You ask becuase you know those little adjustment knobs on your monitor? The ones that "control the vertical and the horizontal" Did you calibrate them? Take a tape measure to the active portion of your screen and divide into your dpi resolution. I get roughly 110 dpi on my mac and about a 100 on my linux box.

In fact if you don't try real damn hard to calibrate your monitor, it is quite easy to get your display to have 110dpi vertically and only 95 dpi horizontally. (I'll bet you always wondered why you look fat in your pictures on your monitor)

In fact I pity the damn fool who pays a fortune for a new fangled 400dpi lcd monitor. Wow that'll be hard to read.

The point is that all of these rules of thumb and pt sizes are useless. The user needs to be able to adjust the font sizes. Got an aging parent who seems to think that everything is getting smaller every day? Wouldn't it be handy to be able to tweak some magic knob to increase the font size without having to make the menu bar 4 inches high cause you're forced to set the monitor to 640x480 cause everyone on the net things 8pt is perfectly readable.

Be a rebel. Develop something which everyone can read.

t.

[ Parent ]

I liked the old new icon better..... (3.60 / 5) (#136)
by Hillgiant on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 08:48:51 PM EST

The nice clean one. More Icon like, I guess. This new one doesn't fit with the overall cleanliness of the rest of the design.

But, I suppose, if it keeps getting changed we will eventually end up with a skinned frontpage. Everybody looking at something different and rusty/driph/etc ripping thier hair out when they need to change something that impacts the skins.


-----
"It is impossible to say what I mean." -johnny

Give me the option of the old site layout (3.75 / 4) (#137)
by adlr on Sat Jan 13, 2001 at 09:33:11 PM EST

How about in the user preferences there's an option for new layout and one for old. The old one worked much better on my apparently too-narrow browser.

Also, nobody would complain if they could have it the old way or the new way (well there're always exceptions, but I think this is the best solution).

-andrew

Nice layout -- some problems :) (4.50 / 4) (#139)
by ejf on Sun Jan 14, 2001 at 06:09:23 AM EST

Maybe it has been said before, if so, sorry (I've just found the time to read the top 60 comments) ...

First off, nice design. I like it. It will certainly require some getting-used-to (I still like the old logo better -- but that's probably just me :)

The page renders fine in IE 5.5 and Netscape 4.7x, but it has a flaw in Opera 5 : The logo is cut in two : the part that's in the topic-bar is about a line off from the rest of the logo. <br /> Come to think of it, the title bar does not fit on an 80x24 terminal with links (that text-mode browser with tables, frames, mouse-support and whatnot, not lynx), the topic-bar causes the page to render wider than one screen which is a little distracting (the stories and sidebars are ok, however). This also happens with 111 columns but is ok on 132 ;) Not that I would _ever_ compare to that other site, but it doesn't happen there ;-)

Also, it might be a good idea to run this page through http://validator.w3.org some time. Yes, I know almost no page really complies, but it never hurts to make some adjustments to remain closely compliant to the standards _if it does not render the page unrenderable on most browsers_ :)

I would like it if it was possible to decide whether one had the +/- buttons the old way or the new way -- When I'm not logged in the page looks a _lot_ nicer to me compared to when I'm logged in. Those buttons just seem to clutter the page or distract from my reading, I can't exactly pinpoint what exactly it is.

Somebody else already proposed to put the Everything link into the middle of the bar instead of at the left. Personally I'd prefer it to stay this way since it is more easily reached with the keyboard than the alternative.

That about sums up my suggestions for the new layout ...

Thanks for it, it really looks cleaner than the old one. Whether it is better is a matter up for discussion, I think yes, others think no. Guess that's just the way the world works :)

Oh, and don't forget to sleep. It helps. :)


--- men are reasoning, not reasonable animals.
Text browsers and validator (4.00 / 1) (#142)
by adlr on Sun Jan 14, 2001 at 11:31:20 AM EST

First of all, the bar does wrap on lynx, but it's no biggie b/c lynx users are used to stuff like that. lynx output:

------------------
kuro5hin.org || technology and culture, from the trenches (p1 of 20)

Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help | links | search | IRC | K5 Store

[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Culture | Freedom & Politics |
Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Columns | Meta | MLP ]

Section Stories
All Stories

Technology:
o The Nuts and Bolts of Graphic Design (46 comments)
o Time for XML rcfiles (104 comments)
o Stopping cell phones from ringing (64 comments)
more...

------------------------------------

looks OK to me.

next, the page could use a lot of work in the validator department. check out http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kuro5hin.org for the results of validator. Actually I run a website (http://www.everythreeweekly.com/) that is almost legal (yes the front page isn't legal on my site but it will be by wednesday).

When i first started working on the site (ie trying to make it legal) it seemed like it would be a lot of work. It really wan't, though. There were a couple of annoying hangups but it's worth it for easily renderable code. Also, it's a good idea to get in the habit because the next html (XML?) will require valid code. This will be good because browsers will be faster and crash less.

-andrew



[ Parent ]
and a followup :) (5.00 / 1) (#144)
by ejf on Sun Jan 14, 2001 at 02:48:10 PM EST

Hmm ... As I pointed out, I was _not_ talking about lynx, but rather links. A pretty big distinction, as I pointed out as well ;) I know it wraps in lynx, I tried that as well ...

Adapting to HTML 4.0 transitional is rather easy. I did that on my homepage quite a while ago, and while you need to look out for some pitfalls, it is doable. XHTML 1.0 transitional is not much to do technically either, but some browsers have problems understanding the <br /> constructs if not done correctly (<br/> and <br></br> don't work correctly on many browsers). Anyway, I managed to do it in a couple of hours (couple here referencing to 2). It will probably take somewhat longer for kuro5hin, but it should be doable.

Going straight to XHTML 1.0 or 1.1 strict is not to be recommended right now IMHO. That would require you to make extensive use of CSS ... While that is a good concept, it has the problem of not being supported right by many browsers. I refrained from going there for now due to the fact that I'd like my page to be viewable in 4.x browsers as well and at least display in 3.x ...

The ramifications for going XHTML 1.1 strict are manyfold -- for one thing it is a complete subset of XML. Secondly, it makes it possible for render-engines (browsers) to become more light-weight since valid XML code is to be expected. Of course, in order for that to happen, the "clickandplay" website-builders will have to support writing clean'n'compliant XML. And there is a long way to go for that, yet. Ultimately though, this would make WAP and other such protocols pretty much useless since webpages should be easily rendered with a CSS for cellphones and the like.

Anyway. It would be nice if Kuro5Hin became at least compliant to one HTML standard, preferrably XHTML 1.0 transitional ...


--- men are reasoning, not reasonable animals.
[ Parent ]
much better (3.25 / 4) (#141)
by boxed on Sun Jan 14, 2001 at 10:28:48 AM EST

That's much better! This new variant works hell loads better with color override, but I'm still waiting for a darkness option or user settable colors.

hover color! (3.00 / 2) (#145)
by boxed on Sun Jan 14, 2001 at 03:12:59 PM EST

you've forgot to define hover color I believe

[ Parent ]
Please use images.kuro5hin.org in your URLs !!! (5.00 / 2) (#147)
by Majamba on Mon Jan 15, 2001 at 03:47:56 AM EST

My lousy company is using a really dumb Webfilter software. Which blocks direct URLs to IP addresses. I wrote Rusty a mail about this topic a couple of months ago. Because he is using the URL http://209.208.150.46 for referencing images on kuro5hin.org (= I don't see any of them).

Rusty answer was that he is using the IP address, because he wanted to avoid unnecessary DNS requests for images.kuro5hin.org. After another mail and the promise that this additional DNS request wouldn't mean the immediate death of the Internet Rusty promised to change the URLs.

It seems like he somehow forgot to do it.

Ya know... (none / 0) (#149)
by Zarniwoop on Mon Jan 15, 2001 at 12:55:56 PM EST

A simple way to resolve this issue would to have the ability to select between DNS and non-DNS (we are already able to select between "Default" and "Austraila" in Display Prefs). Perhaps? Just add another option- DNS Default, or something like that.

It seems like a *really* easy mod, considering the code to change between image server addresses is already in Scoop...

[ Parent ]
Quick thoughts (5.00 / 1) (#148)
by job on Mon Jan 15, 2001 at 10:10:20 AM EST

Change is good to keep things moving, but

  • Please give us ALT="" for clear.gif on the front page.
  • Please validate !
  • Plus I think the logo needs a little bit more work.



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