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[P]
The Ads Return

By rusty in Meta
Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:14:35 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

As you all are aware, K5 has continued to grow, at a pace I certainly wouldn't have expected. The 10,000th confirmed user joined up a little less than a month ago, and we're already up to 11,276, and this month we'll likely see pageviews top two million. You have made K5 the best community on the web, in my (admittedly biased) opinion. It's time to take the next step, and make K5 not just socially and editorially self-supporting, but financially as well.

So, to that end, we are becoming an OSDN affiliate. The very short description of what this means is that OSDN is paying us for space on our pages, on which they will run ads. We are not owned by OSDN, and they have no say in any aspect of the site other than what they do with the top and bottom 60 pixels or so of the page. What? Why? How?... read on for all the details.


Most of you are familiar with OSDN, but for those who aren't, a brief description. It's the web group of VA Linux, consisting of Slashdot, freshmeat, Themes.org, SourceForge, NewsForge, etc. We are the first site to have this particular kind of deal with them, where we are an independent company which has an affiliate advertising agreement with the OSDN network. The rest of the sites collectively known as OSDN are actually owned by VA Linux.

OSDN has no say in any of the content here. Well, I suppose if OSDN employees want to make accounts and vote on stories, they're welcome to do so. So they have no more say than you in what goes up. :-) The ads themselves will be normal banners, no java and no seizure-inducing strobes. K5 has the right to veto any individual ad, for any reason, so if you do see one that you think is overly obnoxious, let us know.

Now this is the part where, if this were a press release, I'd lie to you and say something like "of course nothing is going to change...". Well, you know that's probably not true, and so do I, so instead, let me describe what is, and what isn't, likely to change.

OSDN will probably be doing some promotion of the site, considering they have a stake in our success, so we may get a little busier yet. In the past, I've been awed by your ability, as a group, to welcome new readers, and gently teach them the K5 Way. I expect that you will be more than capable of continuing to do this, and that we can in fact continue to show newbies how to build "a community that doesn't suck."

Of course, money itself is a change. If you've read my diary lately, you'll note that I've been short on spare cycles for quite a while. While Inoshiro and I aren't quitting our day jobs just yet, there is hope that in the near future, we will be able to devote some or all of our time to K5/Scoop. This would definitely be a change for the better, since the list of things Scoop needs keeps growing. Initially, we will also be putting income toward improving our hardware. We really need a database server right now, for example. Having some operating capital will also, hopefully, allow us to get out to some conferences and events, and meet some of you IRL, which we don't get to do nearly often enough.

What won't change? Well, you'll always choose the stories. That's a basic fact of the site, which isn't going away come hell or high water. Inoshiro will continue to be "the ICBM of sysadmins" but will at last see a paycheck for his tireless efforts. I will continue to dictate as benevolently as possible, and try to keep K5 moving in the direction you tell me it should.

So what's OSDN's nefarious motive in all this? Surely they're trying to own all media, and make sure that all your information will fit the OSDN Evil Corporate World Domination Standards, right? They're cackling evilly and swimming in Scrooge McDuck-style silos of cash off your hard work, right? Not exactly. They're doing this because they, like you, believe that K5 is a cool thing that's worth supporting. What it comes down to is, they're good people, and they believe in K5, and want to see it continue to succeed.

So, I think this will be good for us. Scaling is always difficult, and the challenges we've always had will continue. But the underlying message of all this is, you've all done something amazing and it has not gone unnoticed.

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Poll
Is this good?
o Yes 21%
o Maybe 22%
o No 11%
o I'd rather pay for an ad-free subscription 15%
o I plan to flame rusty mercilessly and then forget about it 6%
o I plan to flame rusty mercilessly forever 4%
o ALL YOUR OSDN ARE BELONG TO US 17%

Votes: 319
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Slashdot
o Scoop
o Kuro5hin
o 10,000th confirmed user
o OSDN
o let us know
o Also by rusty


Display: Sort:
The Ads Return | 258 comments (254 topical, 4 editorial, 0 hidden)
The grey is ugly. (3.20 / 10) (#1)
by mattx on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:32:26 PM EST

I think if you center the banner ad and get rid of the grey background, it will look a lot better.

-- i fear that i am ordinary, just like everyone


I dunno (3.16 / 6) (#4)
by vaguely_aware on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:35:04 PM EST

I think the grey works to separate in my mind where the ad stuff ends and the real stuff begins. I agree with the centering, though. It looks kinda weird right-justified.



"...there are lots of shades of brown, but not too many shades of balls. - Kwil
[ Parent ]
non-observant me (3.33 / 12) (#2)
by Anonymous 242 on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:32:33 PM EST

I didn't notice the ads until I read this article.

If rusty hadn't submitted this article, I probably wouldn't even have noticed until about two weeks down the road that ads were running. I wonder what they'll look like in lynx which is what I do most of my browsing from at home.

Were the ads there before? (3.00 / 5) (#5)
by enterfornone on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:35:26 PM EST

I think Rusty hit submit on this story and then pushed the page with the ads. I'm sure they weren't there earlier.

Or perhaps I'm going insane.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
Just there now... (3.50 / 4) (#6)
by shirobara on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:37:45 PM EST

I was reading an ad-less potato article...clicked back to the queue...started to look at another article and noticed the big grey bar. Clicked back to the queue and there's another ad - and another story. (Checked to see if there were any bitchy diary entries after that.)

So you're not going insane! (Though I had the same feeling... ^_^



[ Parent ]
ad-less stories (3.00 / 3) (#10)
by UrLord on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:43:04 PM EST

I just hit back in netscape to where I first came to k5 today and there are no banners... so no one is insane (well as far as this goes).

We can't change society in a day, we have to change ourselves first from the inside out.
[ Parent ]

the ads were there before /I/ noticed the story (3.00 / 1) (#96)
by Anonymous 242 on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:55:30 PM EST

I don't know if Rusty turned on the ads before or after he put the story in the queue, but I had the ads before I read the story. How is that possible if I didn't notice the ads to start with? Easy, once I read the story, my brain said, "hey doofus, that's what the gray banner with the picture in is."

I tend to notice things, but not really until they bite me on the nose. Then I say 'oh, yeah.'

[ Parent ]

Mozilla noticed the ad for me (3.50 / 4) (#82)
by tftp on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:19:57 PM EST

...because I configured it to ask permission for every image site. Naturally, I clicked NO. My Junkbuster proxy is not yet configured to reject OSDN ads. Maybe one day I will add a module to rewrite k5 web page as it goes through my proxy so that all the fluff is removed from the HTML source.

[ Parent ]
The ads in lynx (4.00 / 1) (#163)
by Paul Dunne on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 02:58:48 AM EST

In lynx, the ads are pretty unobtrusive. There's a top banner that goes:

NEWSFORGE LINUX.COM SLASHDOT SOURCEFORGE My OSDN PARTNERS AFFILIATES

and a bit at the foot of the page that looks like:

K5 is supported by Intes.net and powered by Scoop Please Visit our Sponsor

and that's it. Hardly noticeable, really. But I guess by now you've probably seen this for yourself.
http://dunne.home.dhs.org/
[ Parent ]

Arr, it's the ugly grey bar. (3.37 / 8) (#3)
by enterfornone on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:33:12 PM EST

I'm not fussed about the ads, but what's with the big ugly grey bar. Surely it's possible for OSDN to have ads without it?

Sure, I can put up with it on icewm.t.o but this is a site I visit often :)

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.

Blocking ads, should I feel guilty? (3.66 / 12) (#7)
by whatnotever on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:38:34 PM EST

I block ads. I've added these ads to the list I block. So I'm wondering if I need to feel guilty in this case or not. Is K5 receiving cash for each click, for each hit to the image, or just for the overal exposure? If they're counting number of ads served, then I'll have to figure out the whole guilt thing, but otherwise I think I'm in the clear...

you're evil! (3.20 / 5) (#11)
by enterfornone on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:43:46 PM EST

I click the ones on t.o every now and then, thinkgeek have some cool ones at times (warm bawles). I just wish they'd get a bit more variety - as well as getting rid of the ugly grey bar. Someone told me you can just change to an old site theme on t.o, but the old icewm.t.o themes are ugly as hell.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
Tsk (4.00 / 2) (#217)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 04:25:41 PM EST

Clicking on ads without having the intention of doing commercre with the end-target (or even looking around) reduces the value of the click throughs, and leads to death in the long term due to revenue problems. If, on the other hand, you only click on useful ads, block ads, or PayPal us money, it'll benefit us more.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Nah (5.00 / 5) (#63)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:41:19 PM EST

I'd rather have people happy than anything else. If it makes you happy to not see ads, run junkbuster! If and when we offer subscriptions for ad-free K5, and you still run junkbuster, then you can feel guilty. ;-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
not only does rusty give us all the info... (2.83 / 12) (#8)
by Justinfinity on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:42:16 PM EST

he writes like a....a....really good writer :-P. heck, i would've voted this up even if it didn't have to do with a major facet of K5's operation.

keep up the good work rusty, Inoshiro, and all you voters and submitters (hmm that sounds weird, oh well).

BTW, for all you nay-sayers, ads do not suck. they are almost a way of life in today's society. OMFG, 60 whole pixels of your precious screen is taken up by something that will help the site.

that is all for now. tune in next time for the same useless^Wintriguing bullshit^Wcommentary. have a nice day :-)



-justin
Good, kinda... (3.00 / 8) (#9)
by Smirks on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:42:40 PM EST

First of all, it's about time you and Inoshiro get paid for this thing. You've done a tremendous ammount of work to make this the great place that it is.... AND, we can still get in touch with both of you on IRC or through plain 'ol email, something that isn't as easy with the editors of other sites.

Secondly, why two ads?! Isn't one enough? I guess you're really trying to maximize your profits, but where does the line get drawn. It could be worse, we could have another 4 boxes on either side filled w/ ads too. ;)

Lastly, the grey bar.... it's very icky. I say drop the grey bars, center the banners, but put a nice little seperator line between them and the rest of the site so we know where the OSDN stuff ends and the real K5 begins. :)

[ Music Rules ]
i dig the placement (3.50 / 6) (#12)
by jcw2112 on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:45:30 PM EST

having the very stark division between the gray and white works for me...as the above poster mentions, it kinda separates the signal and noise visually. right justified is nice too as it keeps it out of my face.

ads were inevitable i guess. we've all gotta pay bills.



____________________
suck. on. it.
i agree totally (3.25 / 4) (#17)
by scthoo on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:50:21 PM EST

Although some have complained otherwise, I really like how the gray bars seperate the ads from the rest of K5. And I also like them right justified.

[ Parent ]
Thanks (3.33 / 3) (#122)
by driph on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 08:44:18 PM EST

Good to hear.. I was hoping there's wouldn't be too much flak from that move, and wanted to separate advertising space from the actual content of the site.

--
Vegas isn't a liberal stronghold. It's the place where the rich and powerful gamble away their company's pension fund and strangle call girls in their hotel rooms. - Psycho Dave
[ Parent ]
Re: Thanks (4.50 / 2) (#166)
by eLuddite on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 03:26:33 AM EST

You've separated it by drawing attention to it :-) There is no clean way to integrate banners into a site. Banners will always look incongruous unless specifically designed to mesh with their target site.

That aint gonna happen with untargetted advertising which is what the osdn ads are.

Ideally, a side bar of text links that pertain any given article would be both welcome and actually effective on a pay per click basis but internet advertisers are dumber than yesterday's dinner and I fully expect osdn to fail before they catch a clue. Well, that's not quite fair. Let's just say before they get a chance to implement what clue they do have; there's a lot of inertia in the banner biz, apparently.

Anyway, blocking <iframes> at the proxy will make the gray hole and the banners go away without removing the blue osdn menu which is pretty enough and convenient as is.

---
God hates human rights.
[ Parent ]

and btw... (none / 0) (#199)
by scthoo on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 01:17:20 PM EST

i really like the new design. I also really like the originally, more abstract, logo. I think the new one looks ok.

[ Parent ]
Ok (3.00 / 13) (#13)
by trhurler on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:45:33 PM EST

First off, good news. I'm sure there will be idiots who disagree, but I'm all for money. Money is good. Money even smells good.

I'm also all for some of the grey you've added. However, the grey ad bars are obnoxious, and some of the greyboxes don't quite fit inside their borders. In addition, there are inconsistencies like preview headers not being greyed the same as the regular headers. I imagine you know this already, but just in case...:)

I think I agree with whoever said the ads would look better centered, too, although if you just had something to fill the empty space with, it might not be so bad. I'm not quite sure on that, though.

Anyway, that's what I have to say, other than this: I really am sorry that it has to be a Red Hat ad. I like a lot of the things they do, but their operating system as shipped is a crime against humanity, for reasons having nothing to do with them being a for-profit corporation. (And, incidentally, having everything to do with the fact that they turn on every service under the sun and install every line of code ever written by default...)

By the way, did the anonymous posting option go away on purpose? I might never have noticed since I don't believe in it, but I accidentally went for it instead of the topical/editorial box just now, and it only has one option - my regular id.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

Anon. posting (3.83 / 6) (#16)
by shirobara on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:47:43 PM EST

I believe it was removed after k5 recovered from the DOS attack.



[ Parent ]
Re: Ok (3.25 / 4) (#19)
by Spendocrat on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:52:06 PM EST

I'm sure there will be idiots who disagree [with having banner ads]
I'm sure there will be non-idiots who disagree too.

By the way, did the anonymous posting option go away on purpose?
This has been gone for quite awhile AFAICT, I did the same thing a few weeks(?) back. I"m not sure why the option is still there, for scoop sites that want to allow anon posting I suppose.

[ Parent ]
Anonymousness (none / 0) (#222)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 05:24:08 PM EST

AH posting was 86ed back on the 18th of September. As for the rest, we'll be tweaking stuff. And, yes, I find RH ads personally offensive too :)



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Nymity (3.00 / 2) (#244)
by Monster on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 11:27:15 PM EST

As a relative newbie to K5, I see the lack of anonymity, or perhaps more accurately "the requirement of nymity", as one of the things separating it from the "other site".

Before the mass exodus to the Web, I ran a BBS, a member of the U'NI international echo net. One of our rules was that people had to post under a "real" name. Aliases could be used, but they couldn't be obvious. (I understand that some rather famous people took advantage of this opportunity, but it would be a breach of confidence to reveal any names.) I was proud of the level of discourse we had; and I see something similar here.

Nymity is a Good Thing. Keep it.

SVM, ERGO MONSTRO
[ Parent ]

hmmm. (3.85 / 14) (#14)
by Defect on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:45:45 PM EST

Am i the only one who would not mind paying 5$ a month to k5 through paypal or something similar? I'd much rather be able to say "yeah, i'm doing something for k5" and have it stay up than have banner ads with the same result. Maybe i'm just a little too generous but 5$ a month is absolutely nothing. It is just a little more than a pack of cigarettes and hell, then k5 would be helping me quit as well.
defect - jso - joseth || a link
$5 too cheap (2.33 / 9) (#22)
by GandalfGreyhame on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:55:05 PM EST

Hell, I'd pay a lot more than $5/month for adless k5. This looks butt ugly. Especially since the ads aren't even showing up, its just a fucking dark grey blob.

-G

[ Parent ]

I (naturally) agree (4.00 / 8) (#23)
by Arkady on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:55:27 PM EST

$5/month wouldn't be bad and for many of us that'd probably be more that K5 Inc. is getting from OSDN (though I'll leave it to Rusty to decide whether a financial analysis like that should be published; I have no idea what the details of the deal are or whether he can disclose the numbers officially).

A reasonable subscription, though, could be arrived at by taking the average user's page views/day and multiplying that by whatever OSDN's paying K5 per view. You might want to fudge that figure upwards a bit, since I susoect most of us who'd rather pony up a subscription fee would be on the heavy use side of average.

Rusty's open to that option, at least conceptually, as witnessed by the choice being in the story's attached poll ... ;-)

Cheers,
-robin

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
I wouldn't pay... (3.66 / 9) (#35)
by theboz on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:09:12 PM EST

It's not that I do not agree with you about the quality of k5, because I think that it is a great site. The problem is that realistically, charging money to use a website would make it stagnate.

New users can come here and check the place out now as they wish. If they want to contribute via posting, they have to sign up but that is relatively painless as well. However, a lot of the people that post here (from reading the diary section) are hard up for a job, they are under 18, or have other reasons to not pay. These people would all but dissappear, leaving the few elite k5'ers that pay. The result would be that you have about 15 people, that all agree with each other and read the same news sites and get the same information and the place becomes boring. New people with different perspectives help keep things interesting. It's like napster. If they go to a pay subscription (which it appears they are) their users will go elsewhere to gnutella and such.

Also, some of us have higher priorities. I have been working on budgeting so I can save money for my future. I place a much higher priority on getting married than I do on posting to a website that I like. If I had to pay $60 a year that doesn't sound like a lot, but it would be cheaper for me just to download scoop myself and register a domain name with my already existing DSL connection. I have to save as much money as possible, even if it means buying my clothes at walmart, eating ramen soup, and turning the heat down a few degrees. I think a lot of people will have other priorities as well that are higher than kuro5hin.

Instead, I do think that the better way would be to do something similar to the olden days of BBSing. Perhaps you can pay to have something more. I say keep kuro5hin the way it is now, but maybe have it where if someone pays $5 a month their votes are counted for 2 points instead of one on stories. Perhaps there could be a non-ad version that you could log into only if you pay, and the one with ads for the rest of us. There are plenty of other good ideas out there, and I think if we look back to how people paid for their phone lines and computers based on old BBS's we can find some insight. There are other options that I'm sure someone else can come up with that are probably better than those two from me. But in any case I think forcing people to pay would ultimately kill kuro5hin.

Stuff.
[ Parent ]

How the hell did this get posted twice... (2.00 / 3) (#40)
by theboz on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:13:40 PM EST

when I only clicked once?

Stupid computer...DOH!

Stuff.
[ Parent ]

Oh my (4.00 / 5) (#44)
by iGrrrl on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:20:11 PM EST

I don't mind the ads. Some of the /. banners are pretty funny the first time you see them. As for paying, If K5 went cost, I'd breath a sigh of relief. The time I would recover from staying out of here...

--
You cannot have a reasonable conversation with someone who regards other people as toys to be played with. localroger
remove apostrophe for email.
[ Parent ]

Never Ever (4.50 / 4) (#66)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:44:55 PM EST

We'll never ever be for-pay-only. The idea with subscriptions is that if you want ad-free K5, you can subscribe. Non-paying readers will just have ads. We're not gonna pull a WSJ on anyone, don't worry.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
er (none / 0) (#223)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 05:29:44 PM EST

What's WSJ?



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
re er (none / 0) (#228)
by djzoot on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 06:26:38 PM EST

wall street journal?
--
There is no K5.
[ Parent ]
Can't afford ads at home! (3.66 / 3) (#98)
by tftp on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:56:39 PM EST

I don't mind the ads. Some of the /. banners are pretty funny the first time you see them.

I simply can not afford to download ads at home. My Internet link there is pretty slow (about 28 Kbps), and if I allow useless stuff to be downloaded it may take minutes to download an average page. Here is how K5 looks in my browser at home.

Another problem is that most ads are animated GIFs. They blink, scroll, flash and generally go out of their way to attract attention. They succeed - I get distracted from the content of the page. That's why I block them. I also don't like to be force fed, and an aggressive ad is the best way to prevent me from buying the product.

[ Parent ]

You sure can... (3.50 / 2) (#155)
by Orca on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 12:56:38 AM EST

Oh BS. You're not the only 28K modem user out there (I'm one too) and I can afford to view the ads. Hell, I browse without ratings, nested, etc. and performance isn't too horrible. Quit yer bitchin.

[ Parent ]
Re: You sure can... (4.00 / 2) (#160)
by tftp on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 01:18:19 AM EST

You're not the only 28K modem user out there

To be precise, my modem is wireless, and this means that 28 Kbps is its best speed if nobody else is using the network around me. Sometimes I get as low as 300 bytes per second (I run the network monitor in GNOME panel). Sometimes I see complete silence on the interface for 10-15 seconds. Metricom redefined the meaning of slow :-) You, happy landline modem users, have guaranteed bandwidth. My bandwidth is shared among all users of the nearest pole-top base station.

By the way, I will not renew this service after it expires. Cable from AT&T will be probably somewhat better. At least it shouldn't fail miserably when it rains.

[ Parent ]

Slow connections (3.00 / 1) (#212)
by rusty on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 04:10:32 PM EST

I don't blame you at all for blocking graphics. When I first moved out to CA, for a couple months my only connection was an old Ricochet, which was 28.8 *at best*. Man, I blocked every graphic I could and it was still slow.

I've always said I'd rather people block ads than be unhappy with them. It's your choice, I don't blame anyone who chooses not to see them.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Why not... (4.23 / 17) (#18)
by Electric Angst on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:50:46 PM EST

I must admit, I'm generally against ads, but I do want K5 to stay up.

So, I want ahead and clicked on one of them, to help support K5's sponser.

I ended up hitting the OSDN site, where they talked about the milestone of the 2.4 kernel. This was all fine and dandy, but I wondered exactly how I could support this sponser when I didn't see them selling anything. Then, I saw that they had a sponser, so I clicked there, to support the sponsers of K5's sponser. That lead me to a page on thinkgeek.com, where they were actually selling something! Great, so I could spend some cash that would go towards paying for the ads that would give money to a site that would pay for the ads that supported K5.

Then, I saw that the product was going for over $400...

I didn't exactly have that kind of money, so I just closed the window.
--
"Hell, at least [Mailbox Pipebombing suspect Lucas Helder's] argument makes sense, which is more than I can say for the vast majority of people." - trhurler
Well... (3.00 / 10) (#20)
by SbooX on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:52:25 PM EST

I guess I'm a little dissapointed and glad at the same time. First, ads suck. Plain and simple. This grey box is just not working either. On the other hand, this could help free up rusty and Inoshiro to do all kinds of nifty shit to scoop. I guess this is more or less a good thing.

Am I the only one who finds the link to /. at the top ammusing?

---

god is silly. MGL 272:36

Ads suck.. (3.75 / 4) (#29)
by AdamJ on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:59:25 PM EST

But they help subsidize almost all forms of media - newspapers, tv, magazines, radio.. and the web. They're a fact of life, and while I don't particularly like having an ad on the top of K5 (Nor do I like having one on top of some of the pages I help run), reality needs to be dealt with, and building, maintaining, and serving a website takes time, effort, and resources that need to be recouped somehow.

That being said, if I could subscribe for a reasonable fee and see no ads, I probably would, not so much for the extra seconds I would shave off the download, but because I would know that my money was going directly to K5.

[ Parent ]

I hear ya... (3.00 / 2) (#59)
by SbooX on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:37:31 PM EST

I'm just not too sure that the whole advertising biz is working on the net. Ad networks are failing at an amazing rate. A lot of people have been talking about a monthly fee instead of the ads. For any site other than K5 I would say "fuck it." Here, I might just consider it though. In fact, I probably would pay $5 US a month for K5.

---

god is silly. MGL 272:36
[ Parent ]

Links above ads (3.18 / 11) (#24)
by Seumas on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:56:08 PM EST

I actually like the links on the left side, above the ad. Having the Slashdot and Sourceforge links from there make it especially easy and I will check up on Slashdot more often now because of it.

As for the banner ads -- as I have said half a dozen times, I run a pretty popular site too (an auction site) with almost the same stats as K5. That is, about 8,000 members and 1.5 million page views per month. So I'm the last person who is going to complain about your very justified reasons for seeking funding through advertising -- I only hope it works for you. I wish I could find something as reliable for my own site intead of dishing it out of my pocket.

As long as K5 doesn't turn commercialized (ie, trying to make a buck directly off of the articles and comments I've submitted) and doesn't do somethinb whacky like become firmly planted between VA's buttcheeks, I will fully support K5 and it's attempts to seek revenue. Besides, the way the advertisements are seperated from the actual content is done quite well and probably will be as good for the advertisers as it will be for K5.
--
I just read K5 for the articles.

Ads... (3.61 / 13) (#27)
by shirobara on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:58:16 PM EST

The other day, I hit otakuworld.com, which is more or less a cute anime site with lots of silly toys. But this time, I saw this:

Otaku World is Dead!

(only in red font, larger type on a yellow background...)

Turns out their banner ads aren't generating enough money to keep the site going - "Advertising is worthless on the Web now," their yellow box says.

The reason I bring this up is that I'm curious if this is going to work. I mean, not that I want to be nosy and know everything - but I'd really like to see, say in a couple of months, an update. Whether this is working or not.

Also some more information about the system. Does it work by clickthroughs or page views or something different?



Will Do (3.00 / 4) (#70)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:48:53 PM EST

Basically, we're not risking anything on this. I'm not quitting my day job just yet, so it's an experiment. If it doesn't work, we'll try something else. I'm the FDR of site admins over here. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Wow. What Spin. (3.85 / 21) (#28)
by gauntlet on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 04:58:30 PM EST

They like us. They really like us. :)

You know what Rusty? Congrats. The ads don't bother me. They don't cost me anything but a few pixels, and those I'm galdly willing to donate. But, and I say this with all due respect for both you and the VA people, don't patronize me.

OSDN isn't investing in your site, rather they are purchasing a service. They're not doing it because they believe in us, but rather because we sell what they're buying.

But it doesn't have to be Scrooge McDuck, either. They are allowed to try to make money. You're willing to help them, and help yourself at the same time. I'm OK with that. I think most people here will be.

I think a fair way to frame it is that you now have paying advertisers, and non-paying subscribers. The fact that you personally don't pick or write the stories will help you greatly in the conflicts that will arise. Your personal intestinal fortitude should get you through the rest of it.

This is where it starts, buddy. Good luck.

Into Canadian Politics?

believe it or not... (3.60 / 10) (#42)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:17:24 PM EST

Of course OSDN wants to make money. I assumed that would be obvious. I wanted to stress the fact that that's not the *only* reason. Sorry if it came off as condescending. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
rusty (2.53 / 26) (#30)
by Defect on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:02:55 PM EST

c'mon, you're the last person i thought i'd have to say this to, but "This isn't slashdot."

It was one thing when people were recycling stories from /., but now ads?
defect - jso - joseth || a link
Monthly fee (4.33 / 18) (#31)
by jmcneill on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:03:34 PM EST

Lots of people have been talking about paying a $5/month price to K5 to get rid of the banner. Now surely, some people won't want to do this, so why not get the best of both worlds? If a paying user is logged in, don't display the banner. If a non-paying user is logged in, show the banner. Just a thought.
``Of course it runs NetBSD.''
precisely (3.50 / 6) (#36)
by Arkady on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:09:50 PM EST

We need to give Rusty &co. time to consider the mechinism involved, but that's certainly how it should be done. From his posts on last spring/summer's discussion of advertising here, Rusty is open to most any suggestion (but we all new _that_ ;-) and this one is certainly the way it should go.

After all, K5's server already knows who you are, right? So it's a pretty small mod to the server. The real issue that takes time to set up is the actual payment mechanism and managing the subscriber's accounts.

I must say that I'm glad to see the subscription option riding as high as it is in the poll. We just might get it this time. ;-)

Cheers,
-robin

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
I'm all for it (4.00 / 3) (#54)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:32:35 PM EST

I'm all for it. Give me some time to work out the details. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
memberships? (4.33 / 3) (#65)
by Arkady on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:42:28 PM EST

This might be a good opportunity to resurect some of the issues from We the People ... and consider making K5 Inc. a membership organization.

Now, I realize that that discussion was extremely divisive but I suspect that many of us who would rather pay subscriptions would come down on the same side of that issue as well. Perhaps it could be useful to look at paid memberships as an option, as well as paid subscriptions.

Killing (or at least lightly stunning) two birds with one stone, sort of thing.

Cheers,
-robin


Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
Memberships? No thanks. (3.50 / 2) (#111)
by regeya on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 07:35:24 PM EST

With a membership, not only would I not be getting paid to commit my thoughts to word, I'd be paying someone else to publish them for me. No thanks.

Banner ads...hell, people complain about advertising on television, newspapers, and magazines, but other than a few exceptions, programming that doesn't seek revenue from businesses fails. With newspapers and magazines, people grumble about advertising, but if you ask them for $10 for a newspaper they used to get for $0.50 just because you removed all the advertising, they won't pay. People want it both ways. (No, I don't have research on this, but it's something that comes up more often than you'd think.)

Just keep the banner ads. They're more-or-less unobtrusive.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

Optional (4.50 / 2) (#153)
by FunkyChild on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 12:51:15 AM EST

I think the proposed idea was that a subcription would be optional. I.E. If you don't pay, then you see ads. I think that's fair enough and I would gladly pay for it.

Your objection seems to be a bit misplaced though. You say it's stupid to pay someone to publish your writings. But think about it this way - When you spend time at k5, do you just come, write something, then leave? I know at least for me, 99% of the time I spend at k5 is reading articles and other people's comments. And that's what you pay for - not the ability to post, but for a system in which you can read (and respond to) others' contributions in a well designed, easy and informative manner. No-one's asking you to pay to publish your thoughts - if you want that, go get a Geocities account and make a web page. However if you want your thoughts to be seen, by other like minded people, and to interact with them, then it requires a little more.


-- Today is the tomorrow that you worried about yesterday. And now, you know why.
[ Parent ]
Junkbuster... (3.83 / 6) (#46)
by CyberQuog on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:24:12 PM EST

Why pay the $5? I just run Junkbuster (a modified GUI version for Win32 from Waldherr). It prevents loading of banners and will optionally turn them into a 1x1 pixel, transparent gif image. Not to mention it will only let cookies you want to be sent, and other nifty privacy features. I havn't seen any banners in a long time :)


-...-
[ Parent ]
Why pay $5? (3.71 / 7) (#49)
by jmcneill on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:29:25 PM EST

To support the site, of course. Nobody gets paid if you block advertisements, and believe it or not sites like this need money to survive.
``Of course it runs NetBSD.''
[ Parent ]
I know.. (2.50 / 4) (#61)
by CyberQuog on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:39:55 PM EST

I should have clarified that...even though I run Junkbuster, I can still click on the ads, which I try and do every couple of days for sites I enjoy. Thus, everyone is happy :).


-...-
[ Parent ]
similarly (2.75 / 4) (#78)
by mikpos on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:06:46 PM EST

I have a similar problem in that I use links, so I can't see the browsers (well not unless I go through a lot of effort). If I follow the banner ad anyway, will rusty still get money?

[ Parent ]
Mixed feelings (3.78 / 23) (#33)
by puzzlingevidence on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:08:09 PM EST

I don't like ads, generally. However, I like this site, and will click-through daily (or sst up a script to do it for me) in order to boost the site's revenue.

Caveat:

What I don't like is the link to Slashdot at the top of the page, placed above the K5 logo. I'm really discomforted by that link.

Matter of fact, I'm uncomfortable with the linux.com link, too. Said it before and I'll say it again: I have no use for Linux. I'm kind of boggled by how much boosterism there is for Open Source; if I can't play Scrabble or run PageMaker on it, it's no good to me. And as far as I'm concerned, K5 isn't a "Linux discussion site". The mandate is "technology and culture, from the trenches." In the trenches, the vast majority of us aren't following Open Source.

So why go OSDN? Why not join some other ad network -- one that fits more closely with the community?

Or is K5 simply doomed to end up as a Slashclone? If so, maybe I'd be better off spending my time at Plastic.com.

Shit. This turned into a rant. Sorry.


---
A man may build a throne of bayonets, but he can not sit on it. --Inge

One difference (3.50 / 4) (#41)
by Elendale on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:17:06 PM EST

Plastic is a company (yep)
K5 is still non-company based, though they have a contract with OSDN to get some cash. Rusty is thinking of supporting this income (or perhaps replacing it) with donations. We're still free, plastic is not. Besides, plastic is unbearable (IMHO).

-Elendale
---

When free speech is outlawed, only criminals will complain.


[ Parent ]
You've misunderstood (4.28 / 7) (#48)
by puzzlingevidence on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:26:17 PM EST

Plastic is a company (yep) K5 is still non-company based, though they have a contract with OSDN to get some cash. Rusty is thinking of supporting this income (or perhaps replacing it) with donations. We're still free, plastic is not. Besides, plastic is unbearable (IMHO).
I don't care that plastic.com is for-profit, or that K5 is not, or that Slasdhot is, or isn't, or any of the above want to make a buck. That's not my concern (except, of course, that ads are mildly annoying).

My concern is that by taking OSDN ads (as opposed to ads from other sources) K5 is compromising their mandate of "technology and culture from the trenches". Rusty could become a millionaire, and invest in Microsoft or McDonnell-Douglas. "Fill yer boots", as my dad would say.

My point is that K5 is not an open source discussion board. Its culture is much wider than that, but by taking ads from OSDN, K5 is limiting itself.

Similarly, if K5 decided to run (say) rotating ads for immigration lawyers, green card services and job sites, I'd be equally wary -- because K5 is not a discussion board for the "H-1B seeker".


---
A man may build a throne of bayonets, but he can not sit on it. --Inge
[ Parent ]

I don't see that happening (5.00 / 1) (#81)
by enterfornone on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:15:05 PM EST

Sure VA like to plug their own sites, but I think they are smart enough not to limit their ads to Open Source stuff. They will push whatever ads they think fits K5s demographic.

I just reloaded Slashdot a few times, first ad was a gamers mouse, the next was a demotivator poster (from thinkgeek), the next was an Orielly book. Nothing really Linux or Open Source specific.

I would say the majority of people here are former Slashdotters, so I don't see our demographic changing majorly because of this.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
Oh sheesh (4.00 / 2) (#95)
by regeya on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:54:32 PM EST

The only way that will happen is if one of two things happen:

1. kuro5hin gets overrun with Slashdot trolls (hey, they'd be voting users too)
2. If something changes with Rusty and Inoshiro and they turn kuro5hin into an Open Source cheerleading site like Slashdot (doubtful)

Quit worrying. You sound like you just don't want to see anything pertaining to Linux or other open-source projects. Fair enough, but I could do without Microsoft ads. That doesn't keep me from reading Dr. Dobbs Journal, though.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

Why OSDN? (5.00 / 1) (#51)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:31:25 PM EST

This is a response to both of the above posts--

First, yes, we are a company. But we don't exist to push content from our other "web properties" like... ahem... some other sites. ;-)

Second, why OSDN? Because they're good people, and because they were able to give us a great deal. Read lowtax's article on SomethingAwful-- banner networks are dropping like flies. Not only could OSDN give us a workable deal, but they are yoked to slashdot, and frankly, that's still a pretty safe bet, business-wise. This isn't based on any secret info, mind you, just knowlege of about how many pages /. does, and how much people pay to advertise there. I feel pretty secure that OSDN isn't gonna start promising us the checks "later on".

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

True, there is that. (4.33 / 3) (#62)
by puzzlingevidence on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:40:13 PM EST

Yes, true, you could've ended up like IGN's affliates, getting the shaft in a big way.

There's no guarantee, of course, that OSDN won't fall like the other networks. I'd be healthily skeptical if I was you. :)


---
A man may build a throne of bayonets, but he can not sit on it. --Inge
[ Parent ]

We're being careful (3.00 / 1) (#75)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:59:12 PM EST

Like I said somewhere else in this thread, we're not betting the ranch on anything here. If it works out, cool! If not, we're not debt-financing or anything.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
feh (3.00 / 4) (#52)
by regeya on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:31:26 PM EST

Matter of fact, I'm uncomfortable with the linux.com link, too. Said it before and I'll say it again: I have no use for Linux. I'm kind of boggled by how much boosterism there is for Open Source; if I can't play Scrabble or run PageMaker on it, it's no good to me. And as far as I'm concerned, K5 isn't a "Linux discussion site". The mandate is "technology and culture, from the trenches." In the trenches, the vast majority of us aren't following Open Source.

I'd like to see your numbers. Really, I would. How many people in the trenches of tech are concerned with playing Scrabble or running PageMaker? I'm in the layout/design business, myself, and while I can't get PhotoShop, Illustrator, or QuarkXPress for Linux, I really don't care. I don't do my work at home. I do my work at work, on a Mac. Of the people I've asked, I've been told that many would switch to Linux if they had to, if the apps went from being primarily Mac-oriented to Linux-oriented. I won't go into the reasons why you won't see closed-source providers switching anytime soon, or why short-term profits would be low in a switch, but it's more complex than any of us may realize.

And frankly, just because you don't have a use for Linux, and just because the people around you don't have a use for it, doesn't mean that others that read kuro5hin feel the same way. You may notice things around you everyday, and you may read kuro5hin and vote in much the same manner as everyone else, but that doesn't make you representative of a typical reader. It just means you vote much the same and that you notice things around you that may or may not be indicative of how things in the rest of the Real World works.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

So, how does it feel to be wrong? (3.50 / 4) (#69)
by trhurler on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:46:23 PM EST

The vast majority of k5ers probably do use Linux, although I don't. (I'm an OpenBSD kind of guy.) Most of us give a rats ass about Scrabble and PageMaker. I would guess the three most common occupations on k5 are student(computer field,) tech/sysadmin, and programmer/web designer. All three are laden with Open Source fanatics, whether you like it or not. What is rare are people like me who are actually willing to keep a 'doze box around for gaming and so on, rather than pretending that the games for Linux are "just as good," which they obviously are not, as of yet.

As for your worries about Slashdot and OSDN, there ARE no ad networks that fit with k5 any better than this one, and probably none that pay as well, either. In addition, why do you think that the nature of the ads will reflect on what is posted or discussed? Are you really that stupid? People will post and discuss whatever they want, ads be damned.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
I dunno, how does it? (3.66 / 6) (#74)
by puzzlingevidence on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:56:40 PM EST

Y'know, I hate to be a goof, but...

If I'm so wrong, why was my article voted up so high?

I'm willing to bet that more than 80% of K5's users use Windows more than 80% of the time.

(I guess this what they mean by "being trhurlered." Funny, I thought it would hurt. Guess I was wrong...and it feels kind of good -- thanks for asking.)


---
A man may build a throne of bayonets, but he can not sit on it. --Inge
[ Parent ]

HTTP Logs? (3.66 / 3) (#85)
by J'raxis on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:33:50 PM EST

Hmm, rusty should publish the HTTP Log stats. There are a lot of programs out there that will analyze the logs and produce stats, such as Analog and Webalyzer.

Then we can see a breakdown of who's using what browser and what OS.

I've also seen this feature as part of weblog sites who run PHP-Nuke, maybe this could be built right into Scoop?

-- The Raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]
[ Parent ]

Silly guy (4.00 / 1) (#224)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 05:52:36 PM EST

Don't you think we already have this setup somewhere in the backend for us admins? ;-) I recently upgraded our system to the newer ver of Webalizer, as well as combining old Paranoia logs with the more recent Hex logs. We don't separate out OSes, but we do separate user agents: 51% IE, 42% Netscape, 1.5% Lynx. Everything else is smaller than one half of one percent.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Think about this... (3.66 / 3) (#92)
by trhurler on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:48:39 PM EST

If I'm so wrong, why was my article voted up so high?
11 votes at last check. Do you think 11 self-selecting samples represent the will of k5 accurately? If so, you're an idiot.
I'm willing to bet that more than 80% of K5's users use Windows more than 80% of the time.
Hard to say; most of them doubtless spend most of their time at work or school, and they use whatever they're forced to use. What matters is, what would they use given a choice? If you're willing to bet that 80% would choose Windows, I'll take that bet. If you want to take me up on it, decide how much you want to bet and then I'll give you an address to which you can mail my check.
I guess this what they mean by "being trhurlered."
Nah. If you want to "be trhurlered," you're going to have to resort to petty insults and personal attacks on me in posts devoid of other arguments, after which you will find that my replies are of an entirely different character. This was just my usual good charm:)

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
You're thinking of Slashdot (3.00 / 2) (#93)
by regeya on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:49:00 PM EST

The majority of the mindless kiddies that read /. use Windows.

You're on kuro5hin now.

;-)

Really, it might be nice to know the breakdown of who uses what when viewing kuro5hin. It might help in determining whether or not to write a Linux-centric story, a Microsoft-cheerleading story (there are some of us who don't think they're any more evil than AT&T ;-) or whatever. Maybe we should have a poll (rusty?) of what people would like to see more of.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

Not Quite (3.00 / 2) (#134)
by hemos on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 09:49:19 PM EST

Actually, the majority of our users are on BSD/Linux/Solaris.

But, yeah, of the kiddies, probably a majority are on Windows. ;)

[ Parent ]

Really. (3.00 / 1) (#143)
by regeya on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 11:24:15 PM EST

I thought I remembered reading a rant from Malda somewhere about how the majority of the lusers on /. were using IE/Win32. If that's you, hemos, and that's true, I'm actually glad to hear that. :-)

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

Check out my poll about this (4.33 / 3) (#116)
by onyxruby on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 08:15:39 PM EST

I was curious and conducted a poll right here at K5 about this. I asked what OS K5'rs prefer to use to answer your very claim. The most popular answer by overwhelming majority was "whatever I need to do the job". Windows 9.x and Macintosh weren't even on the poll, and Linux still placed second.

I understand that you have your preferred OS, that's fine, I can respect that. Is it too much to respect others preferences? This person doesn't like Linux, so what? Although I have to give you kudo's for not being a "closet windows user". Oh yeah, save the flames, I have and use Linux & W2K at home.

So, how does it feel to be wrong?

The moon is covered with the results of astronomical odds.
[ Parent ]

actual figures (4.00 / 2) (#141)
by danny on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 10:32:14 PM EST

A story on my book reviews ran in the MLP section a few days ago. I've just analysed the accesses (unique host/agent pairs) with kuro5hin.org referers: Windows 63%, Linux 19%, MacOS 5%, 1% OpenBSD.

Of course the sample size is small (240), some people (possibly many in this community) stop their browsers sending referer information, and the results are skewed towards people who like reading. But it might still be interesting.

The overall figures for dannyreviews.com for January so far are Windows 88%, MacOS 5.5%, Linux 1.6%, other Unix 0.8%. Linux is usually a little under 1%.

Danny.
[900 book reviews and other stuff]
[ Parent ]

Linux discussion site? (none / 0) (#261)
by Haglund mdh on Tue Jan 23, 2001 at 06:21:57 AM EST

I really hope not.

[ Parent ]
reciprocal linkage (3.50 / 12) (#37)
by Seumas on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:10:52 PM EST

I've noticed that none of the sites that K5 links do in the OSDN advertisement bar are linking to K5. I assume this will change very quickly? Only seems fair.
--
I just read K5 for the articles.
Linking (4.00 / 5) (#47)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:24:54 PM EST

We *just* started this officially, so I guess they'll cycle in K5 if and how they want to. Frankly, I don't care much whether they do or not. I think we get the right people anyway. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
well I gave you a plug (2.33 / 3) (#77)
by enterfornone on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:04:41 PM EST

Over at icewm.themes.org, so you might get a visit from the 6 or so people that look at that site.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
Thanks (2.00 / 1) (#80)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:14:50 PM EST

Thanks, EFN. Love the sig by the way. ;-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
heh (5.00 / 1) (#142)
by enterfornone on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 10:55:53 PM EST

you know I can just change my sig to anything now and it'll look like you love it :)

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
ha! (none / 0) (#167)
by rusty on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 06:11:43 AM EST

Ok, I was just on IRC...

[03:10:47] <rusty> how long before someone uses "a site cannot run on sperm alone" as a sig?
[03:11:22] <rusty> dammit
[03:11:25] <rusty> EFN already did
[03:11:32] <rusty> http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=comments&sid=2001/1/17/18922/1851&cid=142#142
[03:11:34] <Driph_> hahah
[03:11:35] <rusty> rofl
[03:11:42] <Driph_> hahaha
[03:11:44] <Driph_> excellent

:-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Yay (none / 0) (#225)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 05:54:46 PM EST

IceWM kicks ass. If only it would statefully remember window size/positions for my programs ......



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Banner ads bite, but... (3.09 / 11) (#38)
by error 404 on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:11:06 PM EST

I like the idea of Rusty & Co. getting some money. I just hope they get lots. Banner advertizing is not, from what I've heard, The Road To Riches.

And the ads are pretty unobtrusive at this point.

One question: paid by view, or paid by click?
..................................
Electrical banana is bound to be the very next phase
- Donovan

View (3.75 / 4) (#45)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:22:03 PM EST

It's per page, so we don't have to worry about clickthrough rates and what-all.

We're not really aiming at riches, here. Basically, we'd like me & Ino and maybe a couple other long-time helpers to be able to work on K5 all the time. I like how we are, I just want to do it for a job. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

work on K5 all the time (4.00 / 2) (#76)
by enterfornone on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:02:04 PM EST

Just out of interest, will that mean people getting paid for writing stories or people getting paid for developing scoop? I would prefer the latter, I don't really see paid writers as having much place in a community edited site.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
For running the site (4.50 / 2) (#107)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 07:26:52 PM EST

We might make enough money for a couple people to run the site and work on scoop. I don't expect to be able to pay writers... well, ever, basically. Even thinking we can do K5 for a job at all is projecting a ways into the future. We'll see how it goes though.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Images off? (3.25 / 4) (#88)
by Volta on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:40:25 PM EST

I typically browse images off, do you still get the pageview, or should I try to load the actual images once and a while?

[ Parent ]
Money where the mouth is. (4.00 / 14) (#39)
by HypoLuxa on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:11:27 PM EST

A lot of k5'ers have been suggesting paid accounts or donations, but I don't think anyone can accurately predict whether or not k5 would be able to raise enough money that way to support itself. Why not set up a paypal or (insert name of better software/service here) and implement a kind of street performer's protocol as a test?

Users can donate money, however much they choose, to keep k5 self-sufficient. If k5 can raise more money that way than by selling adspace, then do it that way. This way you could answer the question of whether or not k5 can be self sufficient on a donation model before you switch to one.

--
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons.
- Leonard Cohen

PayPal (3.75 / 4) (#43)
by Malicose on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:19:50 PM EST

Not only would your suggestion be an excellent test, but also would give Kuro5hin.org Inc. $5 for each person it refers, a possible $5 from the bonus of each person referred, and even the ability to accept credit card payments--all of which could be swept into a bank account daily or earn interest in a high-yielding money market account. I apologize in advance to anyone reading this as a plug for PayPal, but the service is most excellent.

[ Parent ]
PayPal (4.50 / 2) (#91)
by janra on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:47:41 PM EST

the service is most excellent.

...if you're american.

I know, they offer accounts to certain other countries too. I signed up for one just before christmas so I could get one of those tuxtiles blankets for my boyfriend (very nice blanket, by the way). Paypal's test for credit card authenticity seems to be a good one, and I was happy to see that they were being so careful, but mine 'failed' the test. This in itself wouldn't be an enormous problem, except that they don't have any sort of manual procedure to catch the ones that fail the automatic test. They know that they 'fail' some legitimate cards. Their only suggestion to me was to use a different credit card. So now I have a paypal account with no money in it and I couldn't see any 'unsubscribe' link anywhere.

I am not impressed.

But apart from my new dislike of PayPal, I agree that getting some sort of easy money transfer account for k5 would be a great idea.


--
Discuss the art and craft of writing
That's the problem with world domination... Nobody is willing to wait for it anymore, work slowly towards it, drink more and enjoy the ride more.
[ Parent ]
Some answers (3.66 / 3) (#100)
by Malicose on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 07:16:07 PM EST

. . . [PayPal doesn't] have any sort of manual procedure to catch the ones [credit cards] that fail the automatic test.
Have you tried writing "Customer Service Email: business@paypal.com" as listed at the bottom?
. . . I couldn't see any 'unsubscribe' link anywhere.
Simply click "Profile" and then "Close Account."

[ Parent ]
Thanks (3.00 / 2) (#120)
by janra on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 08:41:04 PM EST

Yes, I wrote to customer service - their answer through email was to use a different credit card. Thanks for the pointer to the 'close account' though!
--
Discuss the art and craft of writing
That's the problem with world domination... Nobody is willing to wait for it anymore, work slowly towards it, drink more and enjoy the ride more.
[ Parent ]
Re: PayPal (none / 0) (#252)
by HypoLuxa on Sun Jan 21, 2001 at 12:42:44 PM EST

Yeah, that's why I included the "insert better service here" maker in my post. I couldn't remember them at the time, but I knew that there were some reasons why paypal wasn't and ideal solution for an international community.

Do you know of any other service that would more effectively serve and international community?

--
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons.
- Leonard Cohen
[ Parent ]

alternative cash flow? (3.76 / 17) (#50)
by Signal 11 on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:30:28 PM EST

Have you considered allowing articles to be syndicated by other media outlets for a small fee? Yes, there are some copyright issues to be worked out, and ethical issues as well, but in typical K5 form, I'm sure a roundtable on #kuro5hin or here would clear up most of the issues.

~ Signal 11 (who is now slightly worried!)


--
Society needs therapy. It's having
trouble accepting itself.

Not gonna happen (3.85 / 7) (#64)
by enterfornone on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:41:48 PM EST

At least not with any of my articles. I have no problem with Rusty making money by sticking ads at the top of my articles, and I have no problem with my articles being linked to from other sites, but I would be a bit unhappy if Rusty started selling my copyrighted work.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
Maybe for you... (4.00 / 2) (#97)
by Signal 11 on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:55:53 PM EST

I'd just as soon remove the ads and let other organizations use my work.


--
Society needs therapy. It's having
trouble accepting itself.
[ Parent ]
Both options should be available (none / 0) (#171)
by ContinuousPark on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 07:38:13 AM EST

I don't think it would be a difficult thing to do; have the "not syndicate my writings" option activated by default with the "syndicate" option available. I for one would like to see some K5ers's ideas doing some change by spreading to other sites.

[ Parent ]
I for one would like that (4.50 / 4) (#99)
by perdida on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 07:07:28 PM EST

I am a writer. As in, like many of you code for money, I write for money.

Editors, seeing my writing, is a good thing.

There is of course the problem of an external influence on the K5 community. We don't want all of our K5 posts to be influenced by what the buyers of web content want! Maybe we should keep the pieces for sale in the diaries and out of the story queue...

-perdida


The most adequate archive on the Internet.
I can't shit a hydrogen fuel cell car. -eeee
[ Parent ]
Aaack (4.13 / 15) (#53)
by fluffy grue on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:31:36 PM EST

I got back from a nap, and the first thing I saw was the ironic OSDN-linking-to-every-other-OSDN-site-including-Slashdot bar at the top of the page. I thought I woke up in some sort of Kafka-esque parallel universe where Slashdot and Kuro5hin were -- get this -- partners... and as I read the article, I kept on waiting for the "YHBT" somewhere in there, but... IT NEVER CAME!!!

Okay, okay, I'm being extra melodramatic and silly. I'm fine with Kuro5hin having banner ads (even if they're served by OSDN). The link bar really a problem. But could you please have them do something about that fugly gray blob at the top and bottom? It SO clashes with the color scheme here! If it were maybe #eeeeee it wouldn't be so bad (since then it'd match the other light-greys on the site), but as the dark grey that it is, it's just ugly...

Oh, and I bet Bowie J. Poag is going to have a field day with this. :)
--
"Is not a quine" is not a quine.
I have a master's degree in science!

[ Hug Your Trikuare ]

Evil Rusty (5.00 / 2) (#55)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:34:44 PM EST

You are in Mirror, Mirror universe now! I have you in my evil clutches! Mwaaaahahahahaha.

Um, about the gray bar, that's Driph's department. Give it a couple days and see if the shock fades. We wanted to visually separate the "ad bit" from the "stuff you came here for" bit, which is why it's a different color.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Well shit (4.00 / 2) (#67)
by fluffy grue on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:45:01 PM EST

Guess I'll have to buy an extra-fakey glue-on goatee so I can blend in, then...

And yeah, the grey bar separates it all right. WAY TOO MUCH. This is the "no coloreds allowed" of visual cues. I seriously think that #eeeeee would do the trick while being a hell of a lot more tasteful...
--
"Is not a quine" is not a quine.
I have a master's degree in science!

[ Hug Your Trikuare ]
[ Parent ]

An idea (2.66 / 3) (#137)
by ubu on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 10:13:39 PM EST

Dude. The sarcastic "ha ha, I'm evil, I'm a conspirator" jokes are going to continue to deflect criticism for ... about 5 more minutes. And then there's going to be an inside joke about how Rusty is using reverse psychology to be an asshole.

No serious offense intended, but you have used this ploy to sidestep criticism ever since K5 started. Use a new tactic ... or just speak straight out and stop trying to be funny.

"There is no K5 cabal." Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha! *wipes eyes* That is so fucking funny! Now cut it out.

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
Hmmm (3.50 / 2) (#159)
by mihalis on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 01:17:04 AM EST

I see, so using that logic, this is your way of declaring your undying admiration for Rusty using a contrarian stance approach? You wont fool us with that tactic any longer!
-- Chris Morgan <see em at mihalis dot net>
[ Parent ]
Muahahaha (none / 0) (#203)
by ubu on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 02:09:08 PM EST

Uh, right. And here's my tactical response: "Oh, man, you figured me out. I'm using the evil genius methods I decried, just to fool the masses. I must return to hiding before I am further exposed! Viva la revolution!"

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
Man (none / 0) (#226)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 06:01:22 PM EST

I have to watch more TV on Saturday afternoons. This shit is too funny :)



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Heh (4.00 / 2) (#168)
by rusty on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 06:16:50 AM EST

Dude. The sarcastic "ha ha, I'm evil, I'm a conspirator" jokes are going to continue to deflect criticism for ... about 5 more minutes.

...

you have used this ploy to sidestep criticism ever since K5 started.

So you're saying it works for exactly one year and five minutes?

C'mon, man, I'm not allowed a joke now and then? Maybe you need to lighten up. Do you know where "There is no K5 cabal" came from? A bunch of people on IRC, discussing the usenet "cabal" (which was vehemently denied... look it up). Basically, it's a reference to something entirely else.

Do you know where the "Evil Rusty" came from? fluffy wrote that article, so in this context, it was completely appropriate.

Do you want me to just write press releases, or what? As popeye said, I yam who I yam, and if I've been doing something since the site started, you can be pretty sure I'm gonna keep on doing it. Now you cut it out. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

re: stop laughing!! (none / 0) (#202)
by ubu on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 02:07:35 PM EST

So you're saying it works for exactly one year and five minutes?

No, I mean, like... ah, fuckin' forget it.

Do you know where [inside joke] came from?

Yeah, pretty much. I was here on day 12 or something. Anyway, the whole point of an inside joke is that it's funny inside the group that gets it. Maybe I get it but you talk all about the growing community and it seems weird that the humor is so insular.

Do you want me to just write press releases, or what?

Uh, yeah. I want you to be a faceless, boring individual who manages things from afar, shrouded in an air of mystery. No, wait, I mean I want you to stop laughing off assholes like me and start going, "Well, I could make a joke about this but I'm just going to call you a filthy cunt instead." Then maybe we could finally have some real dialogue around here.

As popeye said, I yam who I yam, and if I've been doing something since the site started, you can be pretty sure I'm gonna keep on doing it. Now you cut it out. :-)

Well, that warmed the cockles of my heart right up until the smiley face. Are you worried about offending me? Why? This is Kuro5hin, dammit, if I can't take it I should park my ass somewhere else.

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
Offending you (5.00 / 2) (#207)
by rusty on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 03:50:00 PM EST

The smiley was to indicate that I wasn't nearly as pissy as the last line would have looked without it. ASCII is a crappy medium for expressing tone and subtlety, so sometimes a crutch is needed. I wasn't worried about offending you, I was worried about my tone being totally misread (which happends all the time).

Point being, I appreciate the criticism. Now fuck off.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Kick ASS (n/t) (none / 0) (#219)
by ubu on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 04:55:53 PM EST


--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
Oops (3.00 / 2) (#57)
by fluffy grue on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:35:51 PM EST

Heh, obviously I'm still waking up. I meant "The link bar really isn't a problem."

BTW and speaking of OSDN, I got my first issue of andover.net's "Open Magazine." It seemed like mostly fluff IT stuff, though Roblimo's article was pretty good (could have done without the extra-trendy spiffy-keen formatting from hell, though), and it was pretty funny how page 66 is dedicated to an ad about how they're "in anticipation of the 2.4 [kernel] release within the next few months." This is why Andover should stick to web publication... :)
--
"Is not a quine" is not a quine.
I have a master's degree in science!

[ Hug Your Trikuare ]
[ Parent ]

Formatting (3.00 / 2) (#71)
by roblimo on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:48:53 PM EST

I'm not in love with that column format either.

The people who do Open Magazine are entirely separate from the ones who make the Andover & OSDN Web sites except for a little "writer" crossover.

- Robin

[ Parent ]
Ah, okay (3.00 / 2) (#108)
by fluffy grue on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 07:27:12 PM EST

I was under the impression that Open was done by Andover. My bad. :) Good thing, too, since I just read the horribly-misinformed "No-Risk RISC" which was so bad I was actually moved to write a letter to the editor. (It made some horribly erroneous claims about the design of the AMD Athlon, and used a line graph where they should have used a bar chart.)
--
"Is not a quine" is not a quine.
I have a master's degree in science!

[ Hug Your Trikuare ]
[ Parent ]

Oh yeah (3.00 / 2) (#109)
by fluffy grue on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 07:32:37 PM EST

It looks like either you lost some weight since ALS'99, or they squished your picture. :)
--
"Is not a quine" is not a quine.
I have a master's degree in science!

[ Hug Your Trikuare ]
[ Parent ]

A few requests on the ads. (4.52 / 23) (#56)
by Apuleius on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:34:46 PM EST

I would just like these caveats as a matter of general policy:

1. No Javascript. For the sake of the balance of the Tao. In ISMAP division of the ad should be sufficient.

2. No Java. For the same reason. I do not click on ads that play a first person car race in the banner.

3. Animations should not be epileptic. I prefer nonanimated ads on general principle.




There is a time and a place for everything, and it's called college. (The South Park chef)
Three for three! (4.40 / 5) (#58)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:36:14 PM EST

Yes, those are all rules of OSDN's ad policy, and ours as well. If you see any broken, please let us know! And a link to the specific ad, or a good description would help.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
another ad rule suggestion (4.37 / 8) (#114)
by Tumbleweed on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 08:08:41 PM EST

No ads that look like browser pop-ups, etc. You know the kind that make it look like an application, or the browser itself, has popped up a window with some type of submit button or whatever? Deceptive marketing! :(


[ Parent ]
Three? (4.00 / 4) (#139)
by flieghund on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 10:20:00 PM EST

I only count one, perhaps one-and-a-half if I'm feeling generous:

  1. No Javascript. For the sake of the balance of the Tao. In ISMAP division of the ad should be sufficient.
    • May I point you to the source of the page, which fairly clearly indicates the presence of JavaScript in the OSDN ad block (view source and search for "WebTV"). Or did one of you mean something different?

  2. No Java. For the same reason. I do not click on ads that play a first person car race in the banner.
    • Correct, there does not appear to be Java on the front page.

  3. Animations should not be epileptic. I prefer nonanimated ads on general principle.
    • Epileptic? No, you are correct, they are not. (At least the two I have seen are not.) Animated? Yes. I find animated ads extraordinarily annoying. Is there something wrong with how Google handles ads (nice colored boxes of text)?

Seriously, I thought most studies demonstrated that online ads were not big moneymakers, and that most people didn't bother to click on them. If I'm going to be subjected to advertising -- and I think we can all agree that it's a necessary evil -- can it please not intrude on my tiny monitor so much? I actually make a point to occasionally click on the ads on Google, because I like how they handle it and I want to let them know it's an effective (and preferrable) model.


Using a Macintosh is like picking your nose: everyone likes to do it, but no one will admit to it.
[ Parent ]
three? (3.50 / 2) (#149)
by rusty on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 12:25:14 AM EST

  1. I was counting javascript in the ad (or ralated to it-- pop-ups and the like). Yes, there's JS in the ad block, but it's not necessary. Basically, it just makes the loading a little nicer if you're on IE.
  2. No java, we're agreed on that one
  3. No epileptic animations-- there won't be any of those horrible flickering ads. There will be animated ones. It's basically a fact of advertising on the web in 2001. I don't like them either, but unless and until the advertisers come up with something better (that they'll pay for) we're kinda stuck with them. If you hate them that much, there's a patch out there for netscape that disables animated gifs. Look around.


____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
eh (3.00 / 2) (#227)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 06:03:37 PM EST

Fuck IE. I don't like JS on K5. It's bad enough we have to not use CSS because of fucking Netscape 4 and Mozilla not being quite there yet. Let's not sink any further.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Changed since then (3.00 / 1) (#254)
by rusty on Sun Jan 21, 2001 at 09:01:53 PM EST

It also now makes netscape rotate the ads properly. Basically, there's two different ways we're serving them-- browsers that support ILAYER or IFRAME will get one of those, which loads an html page from k5ads.osdn.com. This way is preferred, as it allows them to rotate stuff properly, and reduces load on the ad box. If the browser doesn't support these (or javascript is off), you'll get "default.pl" which loads as an image. This one rotates less, and produces more load, so we'd rather everyone wasn't using it.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
The Blue vs the Grey (4.33 / 18) (#60)
by SlydeRule on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:39:38 PM EST

I like the grey bar. It nicely separates advertising from editorial.

For the same reason, I find the blue bar at the top very disturbing. It gives the authoritative impression that K5 is an OSDN site. There's even a link to "My OSDN" on it.

Advertising should be identifiable as such. Send OSDN's nav bar back to OSDN.

Just MHO... (3.66 / 3) (#146)
by BehTong on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 11:52:50 PM EST

OK, this is not a troll or a flamebait or anything, but just IMHO... is there any reason why the banner ads (and blue bar) have to take up so much space at the top of the page? It just seems awkward that K5's icon and title bar isn't at the top anymore...

Is it because of OSDN policy (or whatever it is), or is it possible to have a SourceForge-like policy? I like the SourceForge policy on project pages: do whatever you want with your page, just put one of SourceForge's icons somewhere visible and link it back. I'd gladly put the SourceForge link somewhere visible (usually near the bottom where all the other links go). Now I'm doubtful K5 can do this literally, but perhaps something along the same lines?

(Unless this is not possible due to the nature of the agreement, of course. In which case, it's a sad thing, but I guess K5 can't survive without it)

Beh Tong Kah Beh Si!
[ Parent ]

Time for another junkbuster hack.. (3.83 / 6) (#68)
by evvk on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:46:04 PM EST

I use junkbuster so I don't see adds on most sites. The gray "ad-bars" however are sort of ugly and as obtrusive as ads themselves. I guess I'll have to write yet another junkbuster hack for filtering them out. (I couldn't find a png plugin for netscape3 so I hacked a png->gif converter into junkbuster...) While the other site sucks more on the content side, at least they have a "light" version and the filtered-out ads aren't obtrusive.


I'm not going to filter K5 ads. (3.25 / 4) (#72)
by Seumas on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:50:19 PM EST

I filter out all ads with junkbuster, but since the ads for K5 are served from k5ads.osdn.com, I can easily allow OSDN ads to display on K5, yet block OSDN ads on every other site.

Of course, I'm pretty sure that it still counts as an "advertisement" even if my proxy blocks it -- because as far as the server is concerned, it sent the image (I think). If that proves to be true, then I might block ads on K5, too just because I come here to focus on good discussion and not advertisements -- but if K5 bankroll hinges on my actually VIEWING the advertisements, then I'll view them.

As for clicking -- I usually click on ads at sites I want to support once every few visits. Not a lot, but enough to show my support I hope.
--
I just read K5 for the articles.
[ Parent ]

I don't click... (4.25 / 4) (#102)
by joeyo on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 07:18:41 PM EST

I don't click on ads.

Newspapers are an ad delivery device. TV is largely an ad delivery device. I don't want the net to be an ad delivery device.

I don't click on ads.

--
"Give me enough variables to work with, and I can probably do away with the notion of human free will." -- demi
[ Parent ]

Good grief (2.50 / 2) (#213)
by Seumas on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 04:11:17 PM EST

I can understand and admire the idealism of your post, but while you're living in a utopian "no advertisements" world, Rusty and the gang are living in a "work all day, make no money, pay for everything out of our pockets" world. I live in that world too, despite my utopian aspirations for the internet. I'm sorry, but you can't always have everything exactly how you want it. If that were the case, I'd have a dozen people running my site for me, the costs would magically disappear without a dime coming from my pocket or my members' and the world woudl be a happy place.
--
I just read K5 for the articles.
[ Parent ]
The image is not loaded. (4.50 / 2) (#140)
by whatnotever on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 10:32:08 PM EST

If you are using a proxy to block ads, they are not loaded from the server at all. The proxy server works by passing on most requests to their target servers. However, requests for ads are not passed on at all, and the proxy just gives back whatever it's setup to give. The ad server sees no requests, as the proxy server had no reason to contact it.

[ Parent ]
Depends on the filter... (none / 0) (#259)
by Yer Mom on Mon Jan 22, 2001 at 12:00:17 PM EST

InterMute seems to pass on the request and merely throw the resulting image away. I've had cookie requests from Doubleclick and the like, even though the images didn't appear...
--
Smoke crack. Worship Satan. Admin Unix.
[ Parent ]
no problem with the ads... (3.83 / 12) (#73)
by Refrag on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 05:51:27 PM EST

But can the OSDN bar be moved to the bottom of K5?

Refrag

Kuro5hin: ...and culture, from the trenches

Slaves to the man.... (2.55 / 9) (#79)
by blixco on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:12:34 PM EST

Nicely done on the ads. Unobtrusive, they look good, and it's a move toward bigger, better, more influential k5. I'll even script a little to get my client rack to click them all 800 times a day.


-------------------------------------------
The root of the problem has been isolated.
Didn't even notice (4.15 / 13) (#83)
by J'raxis on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:26:42 PM EST

I think the funniest thing about this is that I'm so used to scanning right past the top 30% of a page because of all the banners out there, I didn't even notice the ad until I looked at the headline of the top story.

-- The Banner-Free Raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]

Same here (3.16 / 6) (#123)
by Cyberrunner on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 08:45:48 PM EST

I completely block out the top of all pages with ads, its more effective than filter software.. Hell, I didn't see it until I read your comment and had to check for my self, ;).

Its sad they've sold out... Rusty should have asked for donations to see if enough people would support the site... (I doubt enough people would have given money, anyway...)

[ Parent ]

Top 10 Ideas for Rusty to Generate Revenue (4.29 / 24) (#84)
by Seumas on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:30:27 PM EST

Top 10 Ideas for Rusty to Generate Revenue

  • 10) Rusty bathroom-cam
  • 09) Publish the Rusty Diaries in hardcover
  • 08) panhandle in a better part of town
  • 07) keep a larger portion of the income the Rusty hookers pull down
  • 06) auction rights to post a story on the front page of K5
  • 05) cut down on the weed; smoke real weeds instead
  • 04) put a modified laptop and display in the Rusty-mobile and display ads for OSDN around town
  • 03) sell favorable reviews, ala mindcraft style
  • 02) host K5 grudge matches (how much would you pay to watch someone go at it with Signall 11 or thurler?
  • 01) sperm donations!

--
I just read K5 for the articles.
What happened to the Rustycam? (3.50 / 4) (#87)
by Nick Ives on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:39:55 PM EST

Speaking of 10, whatever happened to the Rustycam? I'm sure I remember a camera existing which was supposed to show Rusty, but instead always showed his cat, at least, I dont ever remember seeing Rusty on it.

Am I dreaming here? This wouldnt be the first time that I had a clear memory of something that never happened, maybe it was another site....

--
nick
i probably hate you

[ Parent ]

RustyCam (4.00 / 3) (#105)
by Zarniwoop on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 07:21:03 PM EST

Yeah, it existed, and the "Things I learned from RustyCam" story is still there. He got a dialup connection when he moved, tho, and it's been down since. I think he said something about planning on bringing it up again soon (whenever he gets high speed access, I'd assume...).

[ Parent ]
random formatting humour (4.00 / 1) (#158)
by mihalis on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 01:11:04 AM EST

think he said something about planning on bringing it up again soon (whenever he gets high

This is where the line break happened for me. It made me laugh anyway.
-- Chris Morgan <see em at mihalis dot net>
[ Parent ]

Lol (4.00 / 8) (#104)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 07:20:06 PM EST

Although, about #1, much as I'd appreciate it, a site cannot run on sperm alone.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Not so sure about that. (4.28 / 7) (#110)
by Seumas on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 07:33:24 PM EST

I'm not sure I could agree with you on that statement. You have clearly not been to some of the sites I have, then.

Speaking of which.... clears cache and history . . .
--
I just read K5 for the articles.
[ Parent ]

Re: Not so sure about that. (3.75 / 8) (#121)
by SEAL on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 08:44:02 PM EST

Also, rusty clearly does NOT have the right type of banner ads to generate that kind of err... revenue "stream".

[yeah yeah I know... booooo hiss] :)

- SEAL

It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.
[ Parent ]
I hate them. (2.08 / 23) (#86)
by Girf on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:33:57 PM EST

k5 != /.

k5 does not equal the rest of the Internet. k5 != ads.

My opinion of rusty, and the rest of those responsible has been drastically decreased.

The first thing that I noticed when I came to k5 a few months ago was the lack of ads; this impressed me. I felt that here I could be part of something, make a difference instead of being a tiny digit on some marketter's clipboard.

I have enjoyed k5 up until this point, and if money was going to be an issue I may have even paid a few bucks a month for rusty's dual PIII, but as it is now, I believe I will start looking for a new place on the Internet, a place where people matter.



Wha??? (3.80 / 5) (#89)
by regeya on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:43:21 PM EST

There's OSDN ads now, so people don't matter anymore?

If I didn't know better, I'd swear you were trolling.

So did you think that kuro5hin was always going to be run out of the goodness of Rusty's heart, or what? Sure, I may have donated a bit too (after I got MYSELF into a better-paying job) but for now the stories are still written by us, and we decide what makes the grade and what doesn't.

If you're just mad that banners apear at the top of the page, and that Rusty and Inoshiro might possibly be making money from this (I doubt that; banner ads are on their way out) then you're just being selfish.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

K5 != /., but... (4.16 / 6) (#94)
by Seumas on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 06:54:30 PM EST

#!/usr/bin/perl

while ($kuro5hin != $slashdot) { &reality_check; }

sub reality_check { $funding_for_kuro5hin++ || die "Unable to fund Kuro5hin!"; }



--
I just read K5 for the articles.
[ Parent ]
Banner ads are not the only solution.. (3.50 / 2) (#126)
by Girf on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 09:07:04 PM EST

Like what ever happened to the idea of $5 a month for k5? We can be different

[ Parent ]
don't thin it'll work (4.00 / 3) (#133)
by Seumas on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 09:43:19 PM EST

As someone who has been debating charging my own members a small fee (maybe $10/yr) to use the site, I keep running into the thoughts of "probably not enough people would bother to pay" and then the follow-up thought "if not enough pay, there won't be enough users sticking around to keep it worth paying for".

Honestly, I know a lot of people who contribute to this site and get a lot from it, but probably wouldn't pay five bucks a month. That's sixty bucks a year, which is a lot for a lot of adults, let alone the younger set here at K5.
--
I just read K5 for the articles.
[ Parent ]

It depends what you're paying for (3.50 / 2) (#136)
by imperium on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 09:53:51 PM EST

Surely browsing the site could remain free, but posting could be limited to those who'd donated anything? If DNS hosters can do it, surely K5 could?

And it wouldn't need to be $5 a month, with 10,000 potential donators signed up: that's a shedload of potential money, but a charge likely to deter many. A smaller minimum donation would probably work for membership. If we even knew how much this deal is worth, or how much rusty and Inoshiro are out of pocket on this we'd be better able to assess alternatives.

x.
imperium
[ Parent ]

no ads before? (4.00 / 1) (#119)
by spacejack on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 08:39:29 PM EST

The first thing that I noticed when I came to k5 a few months ago was the lack of ads; this impressed me.

So the VA Linux Systems and vhosting.com ads that have been fixtures here didn't bother you?

One banner ad, at the top of the page, that scrolls off when you scroll down is fine by me. If the ads wind up degrading the content in some way I'll change my tune. But you can't assume it's going down the tubes just because it's got an additional banner at the top.

PS Rusty: Just don't let that damned "punch the monkey" ad show up here or I'll be pissed :)

[ Parent ]
Grow Up (3.66 / 3) (#132)
by hemos on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 09:43:13 PM EST

Trust me on this - a donation based site doesn't feed you, or pay the rent. And sometiems, no matter how much people like the site you run, you'd like to be able to go on vacation for a few days. Or not have to constantly worry about if the site is going to go down while you are at your day job. Or...even work on some of the code you've been meaning to but haven't had a chance to.

[ Parent ]
Reality check? (4.00 / 3) (#135)
by Ixokai on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 09:52:11 PM EST

Okay, i'm sorry but that is absolutely rediculous. This is a big site which is becoming bigger, and that means it needs more resources to remain functional. That means money -- rusty/Inoshiro do have real lives and real jobs and only so much extra money to spend on such things, you know.

You may have been willing to pay a few bucks a month for this place, but I bet you're in the vast minority. Most people wouldn't donate out of good will, and if there were any requirement or 'service' that needed to be paid for, that would be far worse then 60 pixels of space on the top and the bottom of the page.

You need a reality check, my friend -- nothing in the system of K5 has changed, everyone who is here is still here. The people that populate the site are what makes it what it is, their attitudes, trends, insights, voting, and so forth. They are what makes it so that people "matter", not some some random little pictures which pop up and are easily completely ignored.

Sheesh.

[ Parent ]
A small inconvience for a FREE site. (4.20 / 15) (#101)
by ahabel on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 07:17:46 PM EST

I don't see the ads as being any problem whatsoever. If you don't like the ads use the appopriate ad-blocking software (like junkbuster). Rusty is merely trying to generate some income to help this site pay for itself. As K5 continues to grow and gobble up bandwidth (2 Million page views a month!) it becomes more of an expense out of Rusty's pocket. If he can use this site to generate income, more power to him. He's not selling out to the man, or using strong arm monopolistic tatics to crush the competition, so give him a break.

Andy
I'd pay for trusted user status :)

All good if they behave themselves (3.33 / 6) (#103)
by Chrisfs on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 07:19:18 PM EST

Sounds like a good network, with some already respectable sites being a part of it. so that's good and you deserve to find some way to make money from this venture.
What I am concerned about is how they are going to use the info. Now I am the first to admit a good deal of Net ignorance as to how these things actually work, but
if I get even one piece of mail advertsing something as a result of clicking on a link, I'm going to be a little ticked. Do we know exactly what info they are getting from the links and how they plan to use it ?

privacy (4.00 / 2) (#106)
by enterfornone on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 07:24:35 PM EST

K5 has a privacy policy and I doubt this changes it. I have an account on most of the OSDN accounts and with the exception of the daily slashdot mail (which you can turn off) and the spam I get from being on feedback@themes.org, I don't get any spam from them at all. Of course if you use your real address in your posts, or go giving your address to people who advertise here, you can probably expect to get spam.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
Ooh! I forgot! (4.26 / 15) (#112)
by rusty on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 07:40:00 PM EST

Damn. I meant to put this in the story. But anyway, if you think I've sold out, you can go ahead and buy an official TINK5C "MEDIA WHORE" t-shirt, featuring the New Hampshire forest frog. Get em **AT COST** from there is no cafepress store.

PS: For those of you who have no idea what this is about, it's a collection of like a half-dozen #kuro5hin in-jokes. We're insane, don't worry about it. :-)

____
Not the real rusty

Good fucking bye (2.59 / 91) (#115)
by Qtmstr on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 08:14:00 PM EST

No thanks. I knew that VA Linux box would lead to something like eventually. We all know what happened to Slashdot after it was purchased, "without control of content." I almost thought K5 would hold out, be a bastion against this kind of corporate bastardism, but I was wrong. I would be extremely suprised if the new layout didn't have anything to do with the sellout either.

Goodbye Kuro5hin, it was nice while it lasted. I'll still be a #kuro5hin regular, but I'll be damned if I frequent an OSDN site.


Kuro5hin delenda est!
nitpicking your rant (2.00 / 17) (#117)
by fsck! on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 08:32:30 PM EST

there are two ells in null.

[ Parent ]
You are now my personal hero (3.00 / 4) (#194)
by mingTmerciless on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 12:08:17 PM EST

....that's the kind of nitpick that makes life worth living.

[ Parent ]
relax troll (2.29 / 17) (#118)
by handle on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 08:38:16 PM EST

Man, take a pill already. Are these guys supposed to go hungry so that you can use their free service? If you object to the ads, fire up junkbuster and tune them out. Or better yet, put your money where your mouth is and pony up some cash for operating expenses. Yeesh.

[ Parent ]
Point of Clairification (2.70 / 17) (#129)
by Ixokai on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 09:30:02 PM EST

OSDN/VA Linux did not purchase K5. They are paying advertisers, not owners. There is a very big difference -- they own Slashdot, not k5.

[ Parent ]
Nice troll (2.38 / 18) (#130)
by regeya on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 09:34:53 PM EST

You know that kuro5hin.ircnetwork.net is part of Slashnet, right?

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

Uh... (3.40 / 27) (#131)
by hemos on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 09:40:14 PM EST

Speaking for Slashdot, I can say that nothing changed. Rob and I still determine stories. I still deal with a couple hundred e-mails per day. And I still do the submissions bin.

What I've found is that people like to blame any sort of change on OSDN/Andover or whatever. The bottom line is that if we hadn't had that, we would have closed. Code never would have been released, because we would have been too busy. People need to eat - deal with it.

It is, of course, your decision where you spend your time - but I can say that what you consider to be "the man" changing things is not the case.

[ Parent ]

Hemos! (3.85 / 7) (#150)
by Ender Ryan on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 12:40:40 AM EST

Hemos, I for one believe you entirely. The only thing on slashdot that changed when slashdot was bought were the readers. The same type of stories get posted, Taco still doesn't read the stories before he posts them ; ), the only difference is that morons blame it on Andover. But that's a pretty stupid assumption to make, if Andover really had some serious influence they'd probably be getting on Taco's back for posting stories that he doesn't appear to have read!

The only thing wrong with slashdot is it doesn't handle trolls very well. As far as the stories go, they're ok. It's not much better here at kuro5hin, especially with all the recent self pitty bullshit posted by signal 11, and The Real Anne Marie (or whatever her fucking name is).

Whatever. People just like to complain I guess, and yeah sure I like to complain about people complaining.

Anyway, I'd just like to mention again that it is the READERS that make these sites what they are. They can post all the bullshit they want, it hardly matters, we're the ones that create the discussions, it is all US.


-
Exposing vast conspiracies! Experts at everything even outside our expertise! Liberators of the world from the oppression of the evil USian Empire!

We are Kuro5hin!


[ Parent ]

Clarification (2.34 / 26) (#144)
by Qtmstr on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 11:38:22 PM EST

Just a clarification --- I'm not ranting about the ads themselves --- I'm ranting about joining OSDN. Kuro5hin once had ads independantly. IHMO, there was absolutely no reason to join the beast that is OSDN, especially with its asinine banner linking all the sites. The ads *could* have been nonintrusive and placed within the general site framework as well, but, instead, OSDN requires that K5 place a gigantic gray banner thing over the site that looks like nothing else on K5!

Also, why the heck is the sponsors box there there? What's next, ads between each comment, each story?


Kuro5hin delenda est!
[ Parent ]
gray banner thing (3.66 / 6) (#145)
by driph on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 11:43:26 PM EST

The gigantic gray banner thing isn't OSDN, that's me. The OSDN navbar at the top and the banners themselves are OSDN. So if you don't like the gigantic gray banner thing, yell at me, not OSDN. :]

--
Vegas isn't a liberal stronghold. It's the place where the rich and powerful gamble away their company's pension fund and strangle call girls in their hotel rooms. - Psycho Dave
[ Parent ]
I like it, alot (3.60 / 5) (#154)
by Ender Ryan on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 12:56:10 AM EST

I like it, it's MUCH better than most sites. It keeps the ads completely separated from the content. It actually LOOKS like it's an ad without even having to focus my eyes on it. I cannot stand it when the ads are crammed in with the content(like we do where I work... uhhgg), it's confusing and frustrating when you're trying to quickly skim over the content on a site.

Very good work, IMHO.


-
Exposing vast conspiracies! Experts at everything even outside our expertise! Liberators of the world from the oppression of the evil USian Empire!

We are Kuro5hin!


[ Parent ]

Ads visually separate==great (2.00 / 3) (#157)
by mihalis on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 01:04:44 AM EST

The gigantic gray banner thing isn't OSDN, that's me

Good, it works, Phew! G'night all!
-- Chris Morgan <see em at mihalis dot net>
[ Parent ]

use the space (2.33 / 3) (#164)
by spacejack on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 03:00:55 AM EST

The grey bar is totally fine. I would throw something else in there since the everything/diaries/tech. etc. nav bar below it is wider than the ad. Put in some randomized links or something :)

[ Parent ]
35 accounts? (4.20 / 10) (#151)
by rusty on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 12:43:27 AM EST

Thirty five clone accounts, eh? Very funny.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
wow, I wish I had that much time (3.00 / 4) (#161)
by handle on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 01:25:27 AM EST

I've been around the net a long time, but for some reason I'm always surprised that there's always some loon who's willing to put so much time and effort into attempting to mess things up for everyone while still looking like a complete twit in the process. The behavior is actually common enough that I wonder if anyone has every done a real academic study on it.

[ Parent ]
and really imaginatively named ones too! (2.00 / 4) (#188)
by imperium on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 10:51:04 AM EST

Abuse! Abuse!

but watch out for the syllogism alert implicit in "Help! rusty! Do something!"

Something must be done
This is Something
We must do it!

;>

x.
imperium
[ Parent ]

for the k5 look... (3.50 / 2) (#170)
by ContinuousPark on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 07:09:51 AM EST

ads could have a blue filter applied to them. So any ad would look like a K5 icon, sort of. Maybe it would be a little less annoying. The ideal, of course, would be to have ads tailored from the beginning so that they would blend with the rest of the k5 design but maybe that's too much to ask.

[ Parent ]
Good. Leave. (2.19 / 21) (#147)
by Dan Nunn on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 12:05:58 AM EST

Great, get the hell out of here. Kuro5hin.org doesn't need your moderation spamming. Check out the people who rated his comments, turns out all his clone accounts rated it a 5 to increase his mojo.

You are scum,
Dan Nunn

[ Parent ]
watch your fucking language (2.42 / 19) (#148)
by Ender Ryan on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 12:20:27 AM EST

"but I'll be damned if I frequent an OSDN site."

Yeah, you'll rot in hell for that, better leave kuro5hin immediately.

No my friend, the reason slashdot fell apart had nothing to do with being bought by Andover. It sucks now because of the readership. Sure, they post some pretty stupid crap over there, but they always did. Always.

And not only that, but to ease knee jerk reactions like yours, they aren't even owned by Andover, they're just running ads for OSDN. Any time they want they can tell OSDN to go to hell and run ads from somewhere else.

Just a reminder, the "content" of both this site and slashdot is the readers. And while Andover may have SOME influence about what stories get posted to slashdot, that's not true here as anyone can post a story here.


-
Exposing vast conspiracies! Experts at everything even outside our expertise! Liberators of the world from the oppression of the evil USian Empire!

We are Kuro5hin!


[ Parent ]

leave now you fucking asshole! (2.00 / 8) (#152)
by Ender Ryan on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 12:47:25 AM EST

Look at how this fucking asshole is abusing the k5 rating system, rating his own submissions and rating everyone who doesn't agree with him way down using a zillion user accounts. This fuck is exactly what he's saying he doesn't want.

Please rusty ban this guy's ip or something.
-
Exposing vast conspiracies! Experts at everything even outside our expertise! Liberators of the world from the oppression of the evil USian Empire!

We are Kuro5hin!


[ Parent ]

calm down ender. (2.80 / 5) (#156)
by Justinfinity on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 01:02:36 AM EST

come join the #kuro5hin IRC channel and talk with us. notice the rating i gave almost every post in this thread. he may be abusing k5's rating system, but he can't beat us all down. i think QuoteMstr (qtmstr**) is still in the channel, yes he is. come talk with us.



-justin
[ Parent ]
yeah but (3.50 / 2) (#180)
by Defect on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 09:34:35 AM EST

isn't it some conciliation that even with 35 user accounts all rating him 5, that his comment still has barely passed an average rating of 3 :)
defect - jso - joseth || a link
[ Parent ]
SCROOO YOOOUU RUSTY! (2.50 / 16) (#124)
by SEAL on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 08:48:53 PM EST

Dammit what good is OSDN if they don't allow Shock the Monkey ads? :)

- SEAL

It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.
Neccasary Evil (2.44 / 9) (#125)
by onyxruby on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 08:58:52 PM EST

I understand the ads are a neccassary evil. I don't criticize k5, Rusty, or anyone else over this. Rusty offers a place to play, and he wants something to help defray the costs. Fair enough, I don't recall anyone sending out a collection plate on his behalf. I can deal with this, and I'll probably click a few ads just to help out.

But can you please dump the emusic ad? I don't like the thought that I am helping any company that actively participates in trying to take away my consumer rights. It's a matter of ethics you understand.

The moon is covered with the results of astronomical odds.

Wha...? (3.60 / 5) (#128)
by regeya on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 09:29:51 PM EST

"But can you please dump the emusic ad? I don't like the thought that I am helping any company that actively participates in trying to take away my consumer rights. It's a matter of ethics you understand."

What the devil are you talking about? Are you talking about this? Ooh, mean ol' EMusic doesn't want people distributing MP3s downloaded from them distributed over Napster. Damn, they don't want people to mooch? That's evil.

I think I'll boycott my local car dealerships. If I went to a lot right now and drove off the lot, they'd probably call the cops and have me arrested! I mean, to think they have the nerve to think I have to pay for a car before I get one! I mean, other people have paid for cars--my parents own a Dodge Dakota, so naturally, it's okay if I go to the local Dodge dealership and take one for myself, right? No? Damn them, then. Boycott them.

It's a matter of ethics, you understand.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

Infringement vs theft (none / 0) (#173)
by B'Trey on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 08:22:22 AM EST

If you want to comment on the legitimacy of copyright protection, please do so. There are perfectly good arguments as to their validity. But please don't try to equate infringement as theft. It is not theft. If you take a car from a dealership, you've deprived them of value. Their net worth has decreased and yours has increased. That is theft. If I download a copyrighted MP3, I've taken nothing of monetary value away from them. Their net worth is the same as it was before. That is not theft.

[ Parent ]
False (4.00 / 1) (#201)
by Sunir on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 01:55:20 PM EST

You've increased the availability of supply, thus decreasing the market pressure increasing the value of the material. Hence, you've lowered their fiscal value.

Intellectual property gains its value from scarcity of supply. "Information doesn't want to be free."

"Look! You're free! Go, and be free!" and everyone hated it for that. --r
[ Parent ]

You forget... (none / 0) (#256)
by blane on Mon Jan 22, 2001 at 06:03:06 AM EST

What makes a car valuable? It's the materials required, and the time required to make it. In theory, anyone could make one - the materials come out of the ground. The argument that copyright infringement is acceptable because you are not depriving someone of a material object is ludicrous. If I make my living creating art, programs, or whatever, and you sit there copying them and giving them away, you are depriving me of the ability to earn from my efforts.

Information may want to be free. That's free as in speech, not as in beer.

[ Parent ]
Hmm (4.90 / 10) (#162)
by spacejack on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 02:42:35 AM EST

It's actually an interesting concept: to vote for the ads! Actually I'm all for it...because, hey, no-one's ever done THAT before!! (I got no beef with the e-music ad.. but it is pretty garish) But think about it.. the community is basically telling the marketers what they like/dislike! What marketeer in his right fucking mind wouldn't want that?!

Rate ad: (check all that apply)
[ ] Say! I was thinking of buying that very product!
[ ] Hilarious! Play it again!
[x] Whatever, didn't bug me
[ ] Offensive content
[ ] Morally objectionable product
[ ] Fucking Java!!
[ ] Fucking Flash!!
[ ] Fucking Animated GIF!!
[ ] FUCKING ANNOYING!!!!

So my vote for the Sun ad I see right now would be "whatever, didn't bug me".
Maybe we'd just get the best ads! What do ya think? :)
[I suppose Rusty would edit the poll options :]

[ Parent ]
Excellent Idea! (4.00 / 1) (#177)
by Matrix on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 08:32:52 AM EST

Now that is a good idea! Maybe not just ad polling, but ad moderation... Although given some of the people on the net who are violently-against-anything-to-do-with-money-or-business, the results might be kind of weighted.


Matrix
"...Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny. Free men pull in all kinds of directions. It's the only way to make progress."
- Lord Vetinari, pg 312 of the Truth, a Discworld novel by Terry Pratchett
[ Parent ]

Neat idea (none / 0) (#178)
by unayok on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 08:53:59 AM EST

This would probably be worth removing the filter from junkbuster for. Of course, some assurance would need to be given that response histories aren't being tracked, yada, yada. Fortunately, I think the K5 gang is fairly aware of issues like this.



[ Parent ]
I agree (3.00 / 1) (#181)
by ContinuousPark on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 09:36:28 AM EST

I think this is a great idea. I've thinking something similar: the thing with ads is that they, well.., they suck from an aesthetical point of view. Most banner ads are really lame, like the advertising you see in cheap magazines or in tabloids.

Where is the equivalent in banners to (some) ads you see in Wired or other similar magazines, for instance, where some of the ads really seem part of the magazine, not to mention they are extremely well produced. But we don't have that with banners, what we have is some stupid graphics that seem like made with corel draw 1.

So, if we could vote for ads, maybe, maybe that would give a the marketing guys a clue. I think its ugliness is in part what makes people ignore ads; taking this into account would make banners more effective and make people more tolerant (even happy) about ads.

[ Parent ]
Yes! (none / 0) (#238)
by mihalis on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 10:23:07 PM EST

I think this kind of feedback might make the ads more valuable from the point of view of an advertiser. Granted they might see some very harsh comments, but if each ad had a rate ad page they might learn what we don't like which might keep that stuff down in the mix.

Personally I just don't like anything that keeps moving, but at least there is always the Escape key to stop that for animated GIFs.

At the very least we would get to have our say about ads without cluttering the stories they adorn.
-- Chris Morgan <see em at mihalis dot net>
[ Parent ]

I concur... (none / 0) (#247)
by jasonkb on Sun Jan 21, 2001 at 03:39:41 AM EST

Another idea, vote for the ability to vote!

I think your plan would work very nicely.
____________________ kde.org, konquer your desktop!
[ Parent ]

eMusic (3.00 / 1) (#165)
by dieman on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 03:09:59 AM EST

Too bad they support ReiserFS, freeamp, and musicbrainz. All good projects that are free to the world. I think every bitch against napser is fine.
---
blah
[ Parent ]
I am waiting for the Guf, (2.50 / 8) (#127)
by mystic on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 09:15:01 PM EST

the seventh event..

So far...
1. VALinux formed
2. OSDN formed
3. Linux.Com comes under OSDN
4. /. comes under OSDN
5. Freshmeat comes under OSDN
6. K5 "comes under" OSDN
7. ..............................................


If you didn't get it, I was trying to be funny. Laugh

It's not the ads themselves that upset me (4.37 / 24) (#138)
by imperium on Fri Jan 19, 2001 at 10:18:02 PM EST

Plenty of other sites I use have them, although none I like as much as K5 ;)

No, what bothers me is that even in an open place like K5 there wasn't any discussion prior to the decision. I freely admit having wondered previously what the business plan was, and I am certainly not going to suggest that rusty and Inoshiro should just support this out of the love of their bank accounts.

However, couldn't we have been asked for suggestions? This is not the Slate or Salon, it is a site with a community feel, and a community full of people both smart and technically minded, sometimes both at one time. I think we could have had a productive discussion about this and considered some of the alternatives.

Any such discussion could have begun by letting us know how much this technical and cultural marvel costs before commenting on the merits or otherwise of adverts, as well as how much the ad deal was worth. Is that naive? Some others do seem to manage with donations, and for K5 that could have allowed only donators to become members: the rest would still be able to browse. I'd do it, and I'm only paying myself peanuts right now (OK, it might go down as a business expense!)

Is it just me, or would even "Hey, K5 addicts, we're low on cash and we can't see an alternative to ads: comments please" have seemed more true to the (non-)corporate identity? Or am I an idiot? Was there such a discussion. only I didn't get up in time? (because this is not a troll)

x.
imperium

The discussion isn't over yet (4.40 / 5) (#169)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 07:02:43 AM EST

If the deal isn't cool, it won't last. We've had ads before, and that deal didn't work out. We have to pay the bills somehow, and so far no one in the community has figured out a good way of allowing a website to survive. I would love to see some initiative from our readers in help K5 go away from an entirely ad-based model for support. You said it yourself that the community should decide. I think it should too.

So how should it decide? Simple: create a method by which K5 can self-support which does not rely on ads. Maybe we have ads for some people, subscriptions for others. Maybe we're entirely subscription based with trial periods. Maybe people just give use micropayments per page view (which would be good incentive for them to have more caching servers between images.k5.org and themselves ;)).

Give us a mandate, and we will do our best to execute it.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Question (3.66 / 3) (#179)
by unayok on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 09:00:07 AM EST

I've added the ad source to my junkbuster config as I have a standing policy against banner ads.

However, I understand needing to pay bills. I have no problem making a contribution. I would definitely be in line for a subscription option.

<humour>Maybe we need a PayInoshiro site?</humour>



[ Parent ]
Heh (4.00 / 2) (#198)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 12:34:24 PM EST

I already had the OSDN stuff in my IJB setup (thank you, Waldherr.org). A way of allowing people who don't want ads to pay would be great. It would be nice to also work in proper hooks for allowing those people to not see ads, even without IJB.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Great: but we need some more on the economics (3.66 / 3) (#185)
by imperium on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 10:34:35 AM EST

I'm glad you agree. Let me have a go at how this might work.

First, we need a new story on the meta section, giving more of the background information.

Without wishing to pry into your personal lives, it would have to include some idea of the money issues. I suggest monthly figures for this kind of thing.

$x- just to get by
$y- the tasty new server comes along too
$z- rusty and Inoshiro get paid full-time
$*- all of the above

We also need to know how far along this route the ads allow, and a full discussion on the options. I'm sure we have people here with experience of similar problems who can offer helpful comments on the feasibility of the ideas you've suggested, and maybe there are other options too.

We could then hold a different kind of poll. Those like me, who would rather pay a small subscription, should be required to make one in order to vote for that option!

Thoughts?

x.
imperium
[ Parent ]

Good (4.00 / 1) (#216)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 04:18:32 PM EST

Once we have alternate channels of service setup like that, we can let people contribute in their own way. Maybe we can have a "doomsday clock" which counts how much money we need lest K5 go away, as well as other meters of money. The only small problems are implementation and integration. The only big problem is end-user participation.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Multiple approaches (3.00 / 1) (#239)
by imperium on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 10:28:52 PM EST

I like the sound of it: as a non-programmer, it sounds tough, but I take your word that it's a small problem ;)

The clock of doom, however, risks what I'll call the James Bond problem. I suspect that a simple $32.50 till closedown counter would inspire people to donate/join/whatever only when it ran seriously low (and maybe the site would get saved on its last $0.07!). You guys can't be expected to live that precariously.

As for paying to remove ads, what about junkbusters users? I'd use it too if I wasn't on a Mac, and they obviously won't pay to remove ads they don't see anyway. What do you make of "donators only can join"? I have mixed feelings, and the negative ones are all to do with exclusivity in one way or another.

Having said all that, I am keen to help in any way, especially if there's a possibility of finding a solution that isn't ads!

x.
imperium
[ Parent ]

It's not hard (3.33 / 3) (#186)
by speek on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 10:38:23 AM EST

Get a PayPals account. Display link on K5 to pay you guys. Display how much you need (probaby should give monthly and yearly figures). Display how much you've gotten. Write a story about. Wait and see if it works.

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
[ Parent ]

We already do Paypal (4.00 / 1) (#214)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 04:12:10 PM EST

Way back when we took K5 down to stop a certain spam-whore, we had rusty@kuro5hin.org Pay-Pal-able..



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
great (none / 0) (#237)
by fvw on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 09:06:06 PM EST

Great, but now for something for those of us not in the US/Canada... how about an e-gold account too? (e-gold. (watch it, there's a referer id in there, if you don't want it edit the url first))

[ Parent ]
Good, but (none / 0) (#241)
by speek on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 11:06:55 PM EST

Firstly, I'm off to contribute via paypal ($25 sounds good).
Secondly, if you were serious about making a paypal/egold type thing work, you'd make it as noticeable as the ads.

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
[ Parent ]

Open booking (5.00 / 1) (#249)
by dj@ on Sun Jan 21, 2001 at 09:17:58 AM EST

I would be more than happy to contribute money to you for your hard work. However, it would be nice to have some accountability for the money that I pay. For example, if you said you wanted to pay yourselves each $50,000 a year each to work on the site full-time, and that your monthly run rate was around $5,000, then that would give me some idea of the need. If you have an open financial and booking system, I really believe that would be the first time I have ever seen such a thing. IMHO, that would be a model for the world to see, especially if you made it interactive so that users could comment and/or vote on the financial decisions being made.

To say that you aren't in it for the money means to me that you are forgoing the chance for a few nice new Ferarris for yourselves. If you asked for money under the premise that you needed a downpayment on one, you probably wouldn't get too far. Saying that you are simply trying to keep the site going is another matter, and I think people will respond to that in the way that they do for public television. When you have a set of new features to add, you can have a staging area and withold the update in functionality until a certain milestone has been met. Throw in a cool icon next to my username for contributing more that has some prestige associated with it, and I'm there.

There are many possibilities, but advertising is probably the most offensive of all of them. I agree that Google has done a nice job with it, but I don't think it really works that well. They may get money for it, but if people don't really pay attention, then it's just a matter of time before the advertisers realize this, and start demanding more invasive forms of advertising. Quite frankly, it's a bait and switch, to provide a great service and then to subject the users to advertising later when you want to make money off of it. Again, it's one thing to pay the bills for the site, and quite another to think of getting rich. Please let us in on what's going on with the money. We need numbers.

[ Parent ]
Another URL (1.66 / 6) (#174)
by B'Trey on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 08:25:15 AM EST

k5ads.osdn.com. My junkbuster sblock.ini file continues to grow.

Bound to happen (1.50 / 2) (#175)
by unstable on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 08:30:03 AM EST

I cant say if this is a good thing or now (only time will tell) but I understand were you are comming from on this...K5 is getting big and I cant imagine the strain on your resources it must have.

BTW thanks for making sure that we cant "vote out" an annoying banner ad.. i dont mind then too much except for the ones that flash and "wiggle"...





Reverend Unstable
all praise the almighty Bob
and be filled with slack

one important question (4.50 / 8) (#176)
by yavor on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 08:31:32 AM EST

First of all I should admit that I hate ads. I don't have any special feelings about OSDN. They are just trying to make money out of all these OSS sites after all. I am going to continue to be a regular K5 user.

But there is one thing I need to know:
Will OSDN(or any other sponsor) be able to track down the account of the person who clicked on their banner?

As far as I know (5.00 / 4) (#197)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 12:15:26 PM EST

The answer is no. They have no access to our systems and databases. It's purely a metering of the amount of image loads from K5, and measuring the hits the URLs which are assigned to wrap the images get.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Correct (5.00 / 1) (#208)
by rusty on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 03:55:29 PM EST

There is no interface between your account here and OSDN. The most they could do was collect IP numbers-- they can't even see your K5 user cookie. And as far as I can tell, they don't do any cookie-setting with our ads themselves. So it's pretty safe to say they're not collecting any more info than server logs provide.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Fine with ads, but... (2.00 / 2) (#182)
by WWWWolf on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 10:06:04 AM EST

::WWWWolf growls and eyes around warily:: did I see a Flash plugin warning? I hope you are not planning to put sounds to Flash ads, I really, really, really don't like that!

Now, if only Mozilla's proxy stuff would work, so I could use Jungbuster....

Well, at least K5 is still usable with Lynx too... =)

-- Weyfour WWWWolf, a lupine technomancer from the cold north...


I like JungBuster (4.16 / 6) (#187)
by imperium on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 10:41:07 AM EST

Is it Freudian search and destroy software, seeking out Jungian analyses and blocking them from your mental browser?

x.
imperium
[ Parent ]

Re: I like JungBuster (2.00 / 1) (#221)
by WWWWolf on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 05:20:52 PM EST

Is it Freudian search and destroy software, seeking out Jungian analyses and blocking them from your mental browser?

Beats me. The word just popped into my head out of nowhere, and I promptly added it to my "Weird Names For Common Everyday Concepts" list. Sometimes, it pays to have a headache. =)

-- Weyfour WWWWolf, a lupine technomancer from the cold north...


[ Parent ]
Mozilla 0.7 with proxy works fine (2.00 / 1) (#190)
by 3v on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 10:57:16 AM EST

Actually, even as I write this, I'm happily using junkbuster (the debian version with transparent gifs) with mozilla.

I think junkbuster fails with HTTP/1.1 requests mozilla uses (keepalive and stuff, I didn't dig into it further), I just fixed it with a forwarding proxy in junkbuster (squid).


[ Parent ]
Er, did OSDN put Flash ads in? (3.00 / 1) (#193)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 11:55:19 AM EST

We have veto action on any ads. I hate flash. Flash pisses me off. If you saw a flash ad, then it's time for rusty and I to send nastygrams to the people who put flash into our ad queue. The terms, as I understand them, are that gif89a is the most annoying they can get with the advertisements.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Re: Er, did OSDN put Flash ads in? (2.00 / 1) (#220)
by WWWWolf on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 05:16:02 PM EST

The quizzical tone in my message was caused by the fact that I think I got a Flash warning as I loaded the page first time today - it may have been from the other site, without logs I just don't know.

I really hope it was from some other site, though... =)

-- Weyfour WWWWolf, a lupine technomancer from the cold north...


[ Parent ]
Ads and We the People (4.71 / 7) (#183)
by mumble on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 10:30:05 AM EST

First off, I hate ads. I think they are the spawn of Satan, maybe worse. Adverts are a form of brainwashing that are disturbingly effective at changing peoples opinions on important matters. Ever since I found a very nice filtering proxy, in an entire year I have seen essentially zero adverts. I have grown so accustomed to this luxury, that I absolutely can't bear to watch television ads - I flick from channel to channel looking for non-advert TV to fill in the 3 minute gap.

These days I seriously question the need for adverts at all. If I want to buy something I just research it on the internet. No need to pre-program that information into me, I can find it myself thank you very much. Besides, adverts skew capitalism from the textbook ideal of consumers making descisions based on perfect knowledge, to making descisions based on the most effective advertising. So that inferior products with superior marketing outcompete superior products with inferior marketing. Sideways glance at you know who.


Anti-advert rant aside, I understand the motive (scaling k5 into the future), but what happened to "we the people..."? Perhaps Rusty could have posted a story saying, "I want to scale k5 to a much larger size (think 100,000's of users), but how should this be funded? An advertising deal with OSDN is the current first preference? Any objections? Any alternative suggestions? Lets brainstorm k5's future...."

And if the gods where looking kindly on Rusty, someone might have donated some needed money/hardware/bandwidth, or some genius could have figured a way to serve scoop pages (reliably) from a distributed array of relatively small servers (ala p2p) -- yeah the p2p idea is a long shot but it would be cool.

Also, if the "We the people..." was serious, then why don't we the people have more access to behind the scene details such as page hits, bandwidth demands, serving capacity vs demand, other misc running costs, future plans, etc.? I thought only TOS made unannounced changes....


Pre-DoS lurker, now returning to lurk mode.

-----
stats for a better tomorrow
bitcoin: 1GsfkeggHSqbcVGS3GSJnwaCu6FYwF73fR
"They must know I'm here. The half and half jug is missing" - MDC.
"I've grown weary of googling the solutions to my many problems" - MDC.

Wow, time to hit reply! (4.33 / 3) (#231)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 07:43:33 PM EST

Let's start with your first block:
"First off, I hate ads. I think they are the spawn of Satan, maybe worse. Adverts are a form of brainwashing that are disturbingly effective at changing peoples opinions on important matters. Ever since I found a very nice filtering proxy, in an entire year I have seen essentially zero adverts. I have grown so accustomed to this luxury, that I absolutely can't bear to watch television ads - I flick from channel to channel looking for non-advert TV to fill in the 3 minute gap."

Brainwashing yet! It's quite true that there are many bad or otherwise dishonest advertisers out their. Their goal is to make you want something. They suck. Good advertisers try to inform the users of things that might interest the end user (like heading to LWE). These are the more traditional form of advertisers.

What separates them? On a TV, you sell to a demographic. That demographic might contain people who haven't joined the "collective" of that demographic. The advertisements are designed to help sway them. They also have getting people's attention marked down on their marketdroid victory list.

But this is the web. Here we can easily chat you up about what you might like to be informed about. We can ditch the bad TV advertiser tactics and move on to a more educated level. You probably don't like Mr. Punch Monkey, so we won't waste time showing the annoying fuck to you. Look at Google -- they have nice, subtle advertising for the discriminating searcher. They strive to inform people about things based on keywords. I find that brilliant, and hope K5 can go that way for non-subscribing users.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
this sucks (3.66 / 6) (#184)
by speek on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 10:30:18 AM EST

Please don't do this without seriously trying other alternatives. Get a PayPals account and put a link on the K5 homepage. Display how much you've made from donations and how much you need. Set a goal and let us meet it.

With advertising, the site just won't grow in the same healthy fashion as it has been. Instead, this will become a wasteland, and the motivation will slowly shift from community-building to profit-building. The shift will be slow and unnoticed by most, until the day we wake up and realize, it's just another slashdot, or worse.

Make us pay directly - the site will get substantially better if you do.

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees

Paypal repetition (none / 0) (#232)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 07:48:16 PM EST

You flame us for adding advertisements to our site when you can't even be bothered to look around and see if we have, in the past, release information about contributing to K5? It should certainly be in the FAQ (death to Farl if he removed it), it was mentioned when we had the whole Spam affair, etc.

Not a nice tone of voice, was that? Now you need to take that feeling and magnify it a few times. That's what I feel every time I see some person ranting about a service we've run out of our pockets for a year now. We change it regularly, this is just another change. It's quite easy to block the ads via any means neccesary (ipchains -A input -p tcp -s k5ads.osdn.com -j DENY, add to IJB blocklist, etc). This is a PULL medium -- it's not our fault if you are incapable of blocking advertisements.

PayPal money here --------> rusty@kuro5hin.org.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
not a flame (none / 0) (#243)
by speek on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 11:11:59 PM EST

My post wasn't a flame. The subject line was strongly worded, but the post itself was very straightforward and reasonable about what some better options would be as well as why I think ads will be bad for K5. Probably, it makes you see red because you've had this conversation dozens of times. Sorry about that. Frankly, I don't read the FAQ for entertainment, but rather, only if I have a question. I doubt ads would work too well if you only put it in the faq where to see them :-)

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
[ Parent ]

You're correct (none / 0) (#246)
by Inoshiro on Sun Jan 21, 2001 at 02:07:26 AM EST

3 dozen reptitions of "I hate all adverts," coupled with 3 "I am cancelling my account," coupled with another dozen "K5 is sellouts" makes me a sad panda. Ergo the reply.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
New Media (4.60 / 5) (#191)
by dj@ on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 11:10:38 AM EST

First of all, I definitely agree with the comments about having a discussion first. Also, since this is billed as a community site, it would be great to have open booking, where there could be community audit and discussion of financial concerns and the monetary "health" of the site. That in itself would be pretty cool, since closing financial matters is the number one way to take away democracy. It's assumed that money and financial matters don't mix well with openness.

That said, I have loved every decision that has been made in regard to the future of the site design and functionality, which admittedly were not discussed before. While this works well for things like design, I don't personally think this works well for money.

I took a class in college called "Media and its Social Impact". Our final project was to design a new form of media for a fictitious community that had been completely cut off from the world for the past hundred years and was located on a huge diamond supply to ensure that money was not a problem. I cannot tell you how fascinating the whole project was. A few groups came up with models closely resembling public television, and there was almost a universal recognition of the need to keep in check the effect that money and advertising had on content and the nature of a medium.

This is my suggestion. Instead of placing advertisements prominently on the front of the page, have a separate section called "Market" or "Commerce" or something like that. Then, let people visit that area of their own will. Allow people to discuss and/or veto products being advertised, much like happens with stories. Perhaps you could even provide a process where users could advertise their own favorite products and you could get a percentage of purchases directly from this site. If I liked a story that someone wrote, I would also be very interested in the type of products that a person recommends. If you had music and book associations especially, it could get pretty interesting to note all the connections between people. I could search for users based on the products that were in their "great products" list, and we could even rate people based on their taste and preference for certain CD's or books or other products. Then, when a user placed a new product in their list, people would take note, since the person would have developed a certain repport for having great taste. Basically, continue to allow each person to express her own editorial side, instead of siezing control of it yourself when it comes to money and commerce.

The important thing is to keep it voluntary and off to the side. Advertisements are offensive because they're in your face. Most people like commerce, but when it's being shoved in your face, it's not quite as nice. If you bring together a large number of people in a very tailored market, you will definitely make money from it. Please, however, don't abuse the trust that you have established by making people concerned about your trying to profit from them. That would completely ruin this site, since I don't like the idea of being tracked and targeted by OSDN or one of their affiliates. It's about the people, not the organization, and you have done a tremendous job of making the organization highly transparent. Please don't change this with advertising. I believe this is by far the best site on the net with the best format. You have come too far to falter now, so please see the opportunity to do unique and creative things with making money besides advertising. No matter what, keep an open mind, and ask for the input of others in matters that pertain to them. The community has helped to build this too.

That's a good idea, but... (3.75 / 8) (#195)
by Anonymous 6522 on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 12:12:27 PM EST

With most banner ads, the amount of money you get is directally proportional to the number of pageviews on the ad's page, or how many clickthroughs it gets. Having the ads on the front page increases the amount of money Kuro5hin gets to support itself, and if the ads are moved to a commerce page most people will ignore them and Kuro5hin will not be finacially self supporting.

I think it's fine to have a banner ad on the front page, but I think some changes need to be made to the ads now. See my comment on them here.

I like the idea of a commerce section in addition to the front page ad. Especially the idea of being able to vote a particular add off the site.

[ Parent ]

Increasing revenue (4.00 / 1) (#240)
by dj@ on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 10:32:58 PM EST

Well, if it's true that people would ignore advertisements if they could, then that just proves my point. It means that the stuff is junk, and unless someone gets a compulsive urge, he never would want the product being offered.

As I said, I enjoy purchasing and especially making use of a good product. I would enjoy going to a place to find out about a good book to read, a great new CD, or a new video card. If you could tell me where to find Elesco jeans, I would be very grateful. You could have many more than one product featured, and have a much better chance of making a connection, so long as it's not shoved in someone's face. Why couldn't I post a story about a great book that I read recently? This is the best CD I have bought recently. It's from an artist called Guru, and features artists such as Les Nubians and Eryka Badu. I could post a full review of it, and K5 could have a preferred site from which to purchase CD's, and could get a cut from all of the purchases. You could track how persuasive a suggestion was, or just how many K5 users purchased the product. I could find out how many users like the same product that I did.

When it's advertised and put as blantantly in my way as possible, however, it pisses me off. This site is so nicely designed, and the banner ad at the top is really ugly. It stands out and ruins all the hard work that went into the layout and color coding. CLICK HERE NOW!! JUST DO IT!! YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU SEE AT THE OTHER END, BUT DO IT ANYWAY BECAUSE WE HAVE TO HAVE 500 PEOPLE CLICK TO FIND ONE PERSON WHO'S EVEN REMOTELY INTERESTED. WE'RE REALLY DESPERATE! CLICK HERE NOW AND YOU'll BE HAPPY! WE PROMISE FROM THE BOTTOM OF OUR HEARTS TO YOURS! YOU CAN'T RESIST! DO IT! WE WANT, NO WE NEED YOUR MONEY! Advertising is just so obnoxious.

In the event that there are banner ads, again, let people vote them on or off. That would actually raise the rate that could be charged for premier product placements. You could even have a lotto where companies would pay to get a chance to get their advert displayed, and if people voted it off, they would just lose their money. That would probably ensure that people were even looking at the ad, since they had to look at it to say it sucked.

Or, you could give the option of creating a wish list bucket. I could enter in products that I wanted but couldn't afford, and when a birthday came around, my family could go visit K5 and check my wish list bucket for gifts that I want. They could see advertisements while they're there, which is OK because it's the Commerce section after all, and maybe pool their resources to help me buy something that they couldn't buy for me individually. There are tons of options, but please keep it off to the side in its own section. Make a Commerce section or something.

[ Parent ]
About the ads (3.60 / 5) (#192)
by Anonymous 6522 on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 11:54:50 AM EST

I have two problems with the ads as they are right now:

The first is that there is this big empty gray space next to the ad. Would it be possible to move the Kuro5hin logo up to fill most of that space? This would have a plus of making the site more viewable in small windows.

The second is that the ad right now (one advertising a free red hat with the purchase of Red Hat Linux) is an animated gif. I don't mind having the single ad on the top of the page, but I would like it to be a static image. Animated gif banners rarely have any more information in them than static banners, and they just take more time to download.

Other than these two things I have no problem with Kuro5hin having ads, just as long as they stay at a modest amount.

12276-1 (2.66 / 3) (#196)
by camadas on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 12:14:17 PM EST

how do I delete my account ?

Actually (none / 0) (#204)
by GreenEagle on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 02:53:52 PM EST

Above may be troll or whatever, but I do
wonder why can't I delete my accounts on weblogs ?

Seems just stupid to me.



[ Parent ]
Deleting accounts (3.00 / 1) (#205)
by Cuthalion on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 03:33:17 PM EST

Well, it can't reasonably delete all the posts you've made, and it's useful to associate all posts made by the same account. Perhaps you could change your password to something you don't know, if you want to stop using it.

[ Parent ]
Yes it can! (5.00 / 1) (#258)
by job on Mon Jan 22, 2001 at 10:14:14 AM EST

But of course it can keep the comments while deleting the user account! The human interface can later refer to the delteted account as "Deleted User".

[ Parent ]
actually... (3.00 / 1) (#234)
by camadas on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 08:05:17 PM EST

... I would like to cancel my account and can't find out how. There should be a signout option somewhere too, don't you think ?

[ Parent ]
Words to hear before going this route totally... (3.85 / 7) (#200)
by Cheerio Boy on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 01:53:38 PM EST

"Best of all- they're smart guys. They understand what Slashdot is, and they respect that they can't change it without destroying what it is. So they are happy to guarantee (it's even in the contract!) that Hemos and I would retain full control of the site, while taking advantage of their business resources to take care of that icky part of running this monster. To guarantee that, I've also been appointed to the Andover.Net board. (I'm still not sure if I'm supposed to wear a tie)"

From Slashdot when they were acquired by Andover.net - look what's happened to them since then.

Think long and hard Rusty. It's easier to avoid than escape and isn't personal freedom part of what your site is all about?



VA didn't destroy Slashdot (4.50 / 2) (#206)
by enterfornone on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 03:42:24 PM EST

Yeah, I think slashdot sucks too, but it has nothing to do with the Andover then VA takeover. Slashdot just got too big to be a real community.

Apparantly there are people who just read Slashdot for the MLP and don't go near the comments and they think it's pretty good. It still gets a lot of hits so they must be doing something right.

Read Hemos' comments below, he and Rob are still running the site. You can't blame everything that went bad with Slashdot on VA.

And remember, K5 isn't being aquired by VA, they are just accepting advertising. This won't change anything except the top and bottom rows of the web page.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 2) (#211)
by rusty on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 04:07:03 PM EST

The key difference is that we have a voluntary contract relationship with OSDN. They do not own us. Whether you think Andover destroyed /. or not (I personally think (A) Slashdot wasn't actually "destroyed", and (B) Andover had nothing to do with what people perceive as the "destruction"), either way our relationship with them is significantly different. If there are issues, we can walk away.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Pimps and Whores (1.00 / 3) (#229)
by Seumas on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 06:29:16 PM EST

If there are issues, we can walk away.

That's what they always say, and even when the Pimp bitch-slaps them like a soggy carp, the whores always say "well, I can always leave" and "I don't need the money bad enough to be treated poorly", but they always stay and continue to get screwed, until something tragic happens to show them the light. By then, their sex is so damaged by the business that it can't be used for personal satisfaction anymore.

Rusty, Inoshiro.... Don't let that happen to you. Don't let your sex go bad.
--
I just read K5 for the articles.
[ Parent ]

It's not that way at all (2.00 / 2) (#233)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 07:57:31 PM EST

If you check out #kuro5hin sometime, you'll find I've been labelled a dominatrix. See, whores get laid. Whores get fucked. Except I'm not a whore. Even my richest client wouldn't dare think of kissing me on the lips. Now, how about a nice spanking across my knee?



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Fair 'nuf... (none / 0) (#245)
by Cheerio Boy on Sun Jan 21, 2001 at 12:59:16 AM EST

I can agree with that.

My point was just to make you more aware of actually how even being connected with a corporate entity in any respect make a big difference.


I see it this way in the long run:

1) Advertisements need hits.
2) Hits come from eyeballs.
3) Quite a few eyeballs belong to Trolls.
4) Trolls overrun things - that's what groups of them do.
5) Steps will have to be taken to control Trolls.
6) Said steps can and often do cause non-Trolls to get fed up and leave.
7) Non-Trolls leave room for more Trolls.
8) Site has to scramble to not only control Trolls but bring in non-Trolls for their content and eyeballs.
9) Trolls counter by flooding submissions with Troll stories.
10) Trolls eventually outnumber non-Trolls by a large margin and gain full controll killing any remaining content the site previously had.


I know it's a bleak view but to be honest I just recently found this site and I really am afraid that this is opening the door to a metamorphosis that while not uncontrollable may be unstoppable and the final result something horrible and unintended.

[ Parent ]
You miss a critical point. (4.50 / 2) (#210)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 04:04:46 PM EST

We don't choose the stories -- YOU DO! Unless this somehow affects all 10,000 readers equally, K5 WILL NOT DIE. Change is inevitable, look at the most recent layout change (of 4 or 5) we've had. That doesn't mean the site's readers and commentors are any different.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Hadn't noticed... (2.00 / 1) (#209)
by Jeremy Mooney on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 04:01:38 PM EST

I sorta was thinking the gray bar at the top had something to do with the ads that were mentioned as being possible a few places. I didn't realize it was already in and being filtered. I might have to look through the rules to allow k5 ads and support the site - provided they don't get too annoying.

Although I have never gotten a complaint that a non ad was blocked (and quite a few people have used these rules), so I guess that shows how similar all the ad companies are in nameing, etc...

yafiygi.com - Randomization in web design
Someone want to script for me? (2.00 / 1) (#215)
by rainwalker on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 04:14:36 PM EST

Ads, whatever. Money is important too. The idea of a script running on one of my 5 machines clicking ads amuses me....anyone want to donate a script? --- rainwalker at hushmail dot com

The true power in advertising (none / 0) (#263)
by pin0cchio on Wed Jan 24, 2001 at 12:49:24 AM EST

The idea of a script running on one of my 5 machines clicking ads amuses me

And will eventually devalue a "click"; look what happened to AllAdvantage and friends. But the idea of measuring an ad's performance in click-throughs is flawed anyway; someone on TOS wrote that the real power in advertising comes from building a brand in consumers' minds.


lj65
[ Parent ]
Scripts, etc (4.00 / 4) (#218)
by driph on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 04:45:14 PM EST

I've noticed several comments mentioning scripts, etc to aid in the banner clickingness and whatnot...

While it's a nice gesture, it's probably best if we receive all of our pageviews the legit way..:]



--
Vegas isn't a liberal stronghold. It's the place where the rich and powerful gamble away their company's pension fund and strangle call girls in their hotel rooms. - Psycho Dave
page views (3.00 / 1) (#242)
by enterfornone on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 11:11:24 PM EST

Rusty mentioned somewhere that it's based on page views not clickthrough. Since plenty of us spend 24 hours a day reloading K5 we are probably doing better than a lot of scripts.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
Keep it real (3.00 / 2) (#230)
by A5triX on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 06:45:59 PM EST

I am a new member and only found k5 about a month ago. I was, however, around long enough to see several articles about a k5 constitution. It seems to be forgotten as of late, and making a huge decision such as hosting banner ad's on k5 seems to be something that should be discussed by the community.

I for one would rather pay a monthly subscription fee, than have to look at VA's stupid fucking advertisements. They probably give you 5 tracking cookies with it :P.

How much guys? I'll pay just about whatever monthly fee you can throw at me to not have to look at corporate bullshit while i'm reading ANTI-CORPORATE/ANTI-SYSTEM articles. It nauseates me frankly.

Please someone reply if you agree!!!
Brendon M. Maragia
Tracking cookies? (3.00 / 2) (#235)
by Inoshiro on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 08:22:54 PM EST

OSDN sets no cookies. It was one of the requirements of us even being willing to talk to them. This is just advertisements, people. No need to rant about "keeping it real" (too much MTV?)



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
missing the point? (2.66 / 3) (#253)
by A5triX on Sun Jan 21, 2001 at 05:46:59 PM EST

I think you missed the point of my comment. I want to give you $$$, not trash k5. I'm simply offering a more realistic alternative to banner ad's that in the long run could make you more money, as if where not already border line cult. As far as the cookie thing goes, I never really expected you guys would let them sink in trackers, it was more of a troll really...hmm...guess it worked I got flamed, thanks for trashing on a loyal reader.
Brendon M. Maragia
[ Parent ]
A Failing Business Model (4.00 / 3) (#236)
by hardcase on Sat Jan 20, 2001 at 08:45:22 PM EST

I have to shake my head at anyone who considers "network" affiliation as a way to support a business. Web banner ads are a money loser, something that plenty of sites are finding out. Why? Because they're annoying, they are more poorly targeted than any other advertising product and they simply don't generate the revenue for the advertiser, given the cost.

That being said, our site uses banner ads on several key pages, but only as one of several sources of income. When banner advertising falls apart, we'll still be around. We've also entered into deals with specific companies who use certain of our web pages as targeted advertising because they know exactly what kind of person visits them. But again, if it all fell through, it wouldn't matter because we have other revenue streams.

The sort of exclusive deal that K5 has hatched with OSDN strikes me as only slightly different that that of Slashdot's. I'm sure that anybody who remembers what /. used to be knows that the site has most definitely changed its editorial slant since the takeover. While K5 isn't owned by Andover, I think that it's reasonable to suppose that the advertiser ought to expect a certain kind of editorial behavior. So while that may mean that what we see now is acceptable to Andover, some freedom has been lost in that there just is no way of knowing how the company will react to some future change in the editorial position of K5.

As a short-term fix, I suppose that joining the network frenzy may work, but in the long term, I'd say that it's akin to selling your soul to the devil...and pretty cheaply at that.

=h=

Slashdot's editorial slant (4.33 / 3) (#251)
by roystgnr on Sun Jan 21, 2001 at 11:58:25 AM EST

I'm sure that anybody who remembers what /. used to be knows that the site has most definitely changed its editorial slant since the takeover.

I have to disagree (and I've got a slightly lower /. user id). The early editorial slant I remember was just as rabidly anti-Microsoft, pro-Linux, etc. as it is now. Hell, Slashdot could be considered more desparately pro-Linux back then, if only because three years ago stories like "random Australian newspaper mentions Linux" were as good as the press coverage they could link to got.

I also have a question: With entirely user submitted and user moderated editorials... exactly how is the OSDN supposed to influence kuro5hin even if they want to? They could register a voting block worth of accounts, maybe, but they could do that with or without advertising dollars.

[ Parent ]

Can we (4.00 / 2) (#248)
by k5er on Sun Jan 21, 2001 at 05:23:23 AM EST

Can we have a "My Kuro5hin" and customize it so we can place more ads on the screen. This way Kuro5hin will make more money. Then we can save all that money and do something cool with it. I'm sure there are plenty of cool ideas out there. eg. Purchase Rainforest to save the environment, but much cooler.
Long live k5, down with CNN.
wow (4.00 / 4) (#255)
by blaine on Sun Jan 21, 2001 at 10:19:52 PM EST

You know, for a long time, I've been convinced that online ads are pointless. I've always believed that after a while, people start to subconsciously cut them out of the page, and don't even notice them. I think that I've just been proven right.

I have read K5 for quite some time, and I just browsed on over. I didn't notice anything different. It wasn't until I saw this story that I actually realized there were advertisements. For all I know, the ads have been here the last couple of times I've read K5 as well.

Am I the only one? I mean, honestly, 95% of the time I don't even realize an ad exists. I guess I've trained my brain to completely ignore banner-ad sized images at the top of a page.

Membership fees might work. (3.00 / 3) (#257)
by JackStraw on Mon Jan 22, 2001 at 08:49:18 AM EST

One alternative is a simple membership fee, in the tradition of "The Well."

PROS:

  • Plenty of revenue, and the membership would have to be very small. I mean, 10,000 users means that it might be $2 a year at MOST, probably less (although, obviously, not all 10,000 woudl join.)
  • Keeps trolls away. Who's going to pay money just to troll? This is one reason that the well was so vibrant: people don't pay good money if they don't really care about the site.

CONS:

  • People who can't afford it ($2/year?) wouldn't be able to participate. Perhaps we could make an alternate way for them to pay? Some type of maintenance-type labor?

That's just my 2 cents.


-The bus came by, I got on... that's when it all began.

cowboy neal (none / 0) (#260)
by A5triX on Mon Jan 22, 2001 at 09:27:31 PM EST

-There was cowboy neal at the wheel on the bus to never never land. (~);=}
Brendon M. Maragia
[ Parent ]
heh, damn straight (none / 0) (#262)
by JackStraw on Tue Jan 23, 2001 at 05:14:22 PM EST

If only I could've been on that bus
-The bus came by, I got on... that's when it all began.
[ Parent ]
To be really honest... (none / 0) (#264)
by Jeepmeister on Thu Jan 25, 2001 at 05:46:52 PM EST

I hate web ads. Truth is, the web based advertising business model is a miserable failure. Most of us who have been using the Internet for more than 10 years deeply resent business presence here at all. Personally, I perceive the web based business model, including it's ugly step child advertising, as pestilence to be eradicated by any possible means. My personal weapon of choice is Glidescope. Oh yeah, baby. And OSDN's ad at the top of your page: Just a gray block to me, thank goodness.

Jeepmeister
I don't need no estinkin' .sig
The Ads Return | 258 comments (254 topical, 4 editorial, 0 hidden)
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