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Kuro5hin: Straying From the Goal?

By regeya in Meta
Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 01:32:20 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

I've noticed quite a few people posting comments about what kuro5hin is "all about" of late, and what surprises me is how wildly different people's notions of what kuro5hin is "all about" can be.

Different, even, from the actual kuro5hin mission statement.


Out of annoyance last night, I wrote this in my diary. Be forewarned that it's fairly inflammatory to the humor-impaired.

Kuro5hin.org is a community of people who like to think, so long as they're not asked to re-evaluate their opinions on a particular subject. You will not find garbage in the discussions here, because noise is not tolerated. This is a site for people who want to discuss the world they live in, so long as you do not disturb the mindset of the readers or offend them in any way, shape or form. It's a site for people who are on the ground in the modern world, and who sometimes look around and wonder what they have wrought.

It's most decidedly not a site for people who need a laugh now and then. It's a site for people who like to argue. No matter what people may tell you, that's all it's for. Move along.

I (rusty) use and create Free Software (as well as Open Source Software) and am so, so sorry that I'm such a Linux bigot. I realize that merely using Linux means that I'm an anti-Mircosoft bigot and that I'm entirely too closed-minded. I promise to replace anything non-Microsoft with Win2K so that I may no longer be so closed-minded. Further, I intend to stop producing Free and Open Source Software and only produce closed-source software in an effort to be less closed-minded.

I (Inoshiro) am responsible for the smoothness of the machine running Kuro5hin, most of the documentation, and occasional writings on the site. I use Slackware as the Linux flavour of choice (and yes, I do aplologise for my bigoted behaviour in this area), although I'm also partial to OpenBSD -- not that I force this on anyone ;)

Besides the two admins, Kuro5hin relies on its readers -- it exists for them and through them. Submit stories about interesting things that you hear about, things you think of, or other things which strike your fancy. This site has an open submission queue. Any user can see and vote on all submitted stories. If you want to see something posted, you can make it happen by participating in the moderation of the stories in the submission queue. If the rest of the readership doesn't agree with your voting habits, feel free to post numerous comments and diary entries telling your fellow readers what idiots they are. They appreciate it.

Garbage will not be tolerated. Others can and will rate your posts into oblivion. Mojo is our system designed to facilitate this community filtering. We (the readers) have every intention of trying to stifle anyone's free expression and legitimate arguments (especially if we personally dislike them). We hope most of you agree that this is the only way to keep a site usable and worthwhile.

What surprised me the most was this comment made by rusty:

I think way too few readers have actually read the mission statement. Seems like daily I see some comment espousing one or another of the views you so aptly skewer above, and I'm left thinking "gee... when did K5 become about that?" I wonder if this would get voted up if I posted it (due to the constant fear, of course).

And it made me wonder: is this a good thing or a bad thing? Is it okay that rusty wanted a site based on his mission statement, and that it's veered so far from the course?

From editorial comments I've read here, some people feel that kuro5hin is merely a place for people to discuss technology. To others, it's a place for intelligent people to discuss culture, and find technology-related articles impossible to discuss. Others want to see features like a Signal 11 filter. And others like to post editorial comments and diary entries expressing the viewpoint that people are just voting wrong on stories, that they're voting bad stories up and good stories down. Or that Slashdot, not kuro5hin, is where Linux-related stories need to go, since kuro5hin is not Slashdot. Or that MLP needs to go, and that amusing MLP has no place on kuro5hin.

I'm not here to argue for or against these things, but rather to argue that people read the mission statement and take it to heart. To some of us, that's what was so appealing about kuro5hin in the first place: A place where we could discuss technology and culture, and that stories could and would be evaluated by the readers, and accepted or rejected for valid reasons.

On the other hand, I feel that it's my duty to point out that the mission statement states that

We have no intention of trying to stifle anyone's free expression and legitimate arguments (no matter how much we might personally dislike them).

I can't begin to count the number of times I've seen people state, "(I can't vote this up|you shouldn't vote this up) because it's (Signal11|Anne Marie|whomever)." While the parties involved may annoy you, you should at least try to evaluate what they're trying to say in an objective manner.

Suggestions

Try to read all new submissions in an objective manner. Try to not evaluate a story based on who wrote the story, or whether or not you agree with the opinion expressed, but on how well it's written and how well-researched it seems to be. If the subject matter doesn't interest you, vote "0, Don't Care" and move on. If you don't like MLP, vote "0" and move on. If you don't like Culture, vote 0 and move on. Even a vote of 0 is a vote against a story with the current voting system, and if stories start getting overwhelming votes of "0, Don't Care" then authors will eventually get the point. :-) Remember, kuro5hin is a site that tries to cater to a broad spectrum of interests, and that other people have interests different than your own.

Try to avoid reading other people's comments before voting on a story. Negative comments tend to color a person's perception of the overall quality of the subject matter at hand. Read it for yourself, and read the whole thing, not just the first paragraph. Just as you can't judge a book by its cover, you can't judge a story on its first paragraph.

Lastly, let the voting process work, and realize that other people's interests and perceptions of overall quality don't always match yours. Posting inflammatory comments and diary entries don't help to improve kuro5hin; they help make kuro5hin into a place dominated by bad attitude and poor discussion.

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Poll
kuro5hin
o is a technology site 3%
o is a news site 0%
o is a culture discussion site 5%
o is too broad in subject matter 5%
o is not Slashdot 21%
o is all of the above (excepting too broad) 57%
o is all of the above and too broad. 5%

Votes: 52
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Slashdot
o Kuro5hin
o kuro5hin mission statement
o my diary
o Also by regeya


Display: Sort:
Kuro5hin: Straying From the Goal? | 100 comments (92 topical, 8 editorial, 0 hidden)
One comment to mess with your heads. (4.35 / 14) (#2)
by theboz on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 10:33:53 AM EST

Kuro5hin.org is a community of people who like to think, so long as they're not asked to re-evaluate their opinions on a particular subject.

In a sarcastic way you are implying that we should be open to change in our opinions. I agree with that. However, wouldn't that also include the intent and mission of kuro5hin?

Even though I do speak out against some of the things you listed...such as the linux stories, I only do so when it's uninteresting. I don't care if someone releases drivers for a certain video card in linux, as I wouldn't care for it in windows either. I think that would be a boring story so I would vote it -1. However, if it was a story about how linux is better than Windows, and they give good reasons, I would vote it up. I try to keep my opinions out of voting, but I do have criteria that I vote down for, such as factual errors, and things that are too biased in a way I think is wrong. It's difficult to give guidelines for voting and such. It reminds me of the judge that said he couldn't tell you what obscene material is, but he knows it if he sees it. I think voting is the same way...I can tell what I think is crap or not, but I can't explain it well. That's where the voting system is strong. Other people have the ability to vote something back up if I vote it down like a dumbass. I have the ability to counter them as well. The problem occurs when there is a mission statement given by the original designer of the system, but the users further their own goals and make it something completely different. Look at the U.S. for example. The way the country was founded is a whole lot different than what we have now.

And furthermore, since I have vowed to include random seductive compliments from my palm pilot in my posts for the next two days, here ya go:

Your hands are like delectable raisins, lusting to be frosted with sugar and entered...like I did to your mama.

Stuff.

LOL! (3.33 / 3) (#5)
by regeya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 10:47:53 AM EST

Wow, what's the name of this Palm Pilot proggy? Not that I have a Palm Pilot ATM, but that's funny stuff. :-)<P>

Yeah, I think you and I have been trading comments back and forth on the Linux subject a while now. I happen to agree with you!<P>

My main concern about kuro5hin is that some people are trying to take the site off into a negative direction, where only the opinions they agree with are valid, and only those opinions will be posted here. I'm seeing the beginnings.<P>

The secondary concern is related. Rather than try to discuss change in a rational manner, some people seem to want to take kuro5hin down to a narrow focus, to ensure somehow that only the things they're interested in hit the submissions queue. To that end, they post comments and diary entries to no end complaining about what they see as "crap" getting voted up despite their continued efforts. Some people have even developed what I'd call a persecution complex. :-) It's sort of like what's happened to Slashdot, where a crop of relatively new readers (new to me; I've known about Slashdot since late '97 :-) have decided that Slashdot is most decidedly *not* supposed to have a pro-Linux, anti-Microsoft bias (even though that's the way it's been from the beginning) and post countless annoying posts about how Slashdot's just "a bunch of Linux zealots." I could go on about the anti-zealot zealots and their migration to kuro5hin, but that'd turn into a flame war. :-)

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

Zealots (3.75 / 4) (#13)
by theboz on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:31:17 AM EST

I think it's a bad idea to be blinded by zeal for either side. I do agree that slashdot definitely should be biased towards linux and open source. Slashdot has a more narrow focus than kuro5hin I think as well. The thing that makes kuro5hin difficult is that it seems to be ok to have a pro-linux or pro-microsoft story, as well as it is well written and open to discussion. Even though rusty is in the linux camp I'm sure he wouldn't object to some Microsoft stories as long as it's relevant. From the mission statement he says,
I (rusty) use and create Free Software (as well as Open Source Software) so you'll probably find a decidedly pro-Linux, and pro-freedom bent around here. I have no interest in Microsoft, so you will not see stories about this bug, or that flaw, in their software posted by me. I also created this site.
I interpret that to mean that he doesn't care about bugs found in Microsoft products or reviews of their software. However if it's something interesting, for example if Microsoft bought out VA Linux, I'm sure we'd have a lot to discuss about it here. :o)

And I think you hit the problem right on the head...people are too closed-minded about things. I may argue with someone about abortion for example, but I try to remain objective. If they post something I don't agree with, as long as it's not name-calling or something childish I won't mark it down. If I think it's well thought out, but perhaps something I disagree with, I still might mark it up. I wish more people could be objective, but it's not very likely. It is possible to be stubborn in your opinion and objective at the same time.

Your eyes are like electric banana chips, wishing to be sauteed and caressed. (You know, that sounds more like a threat to me. Damn "Romance-In-A-Can" program!)

Stuff.
[ Parent ]

Humor on kuro5hin (4.50 / 22) (#4)
by flieghund on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 10:46:58 AM EST

In the rush to "not be slashdot," it seems that the kuro5hin readership has taken a holier-than-thou strategy when it comes to humor. I hardly even see a funny comment these days because it either gets modded down below 1, or people have become "trained" (brainwashed?) to avoid posting anything other than cold, hard arguments. God forbid an article might contain something off-color.

Humor plays an important role in a heated argument by breaking the tension. Many would claim that this distracts those involved from the topic at hand; I fail to see why this is a bad thing in most situations. People get so wrapped up in their ideology that they fail to realize that we are all fallible human beings. Humor, used correctly, can help remind others of that.

rusty's current .sig reads: "Irony will be lavender". Everyone should follow that link and read the article on the other end. I mean it. Really. Go there now.



Using a Macintosh is like picking your nose: everyone likes to do it, but no one will admit to it.
Why humour isn't modded up (5.00 / 2) (#46)
by Morn on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 04:03:32 PM EST

I think the porblem is that people are afraid to moderate up humorous posts because K5 humour is oftem of a realistic and/or ironic nature. Sometimes I see a post that raises a smile, but think twice about moderating it highly because it might appear to people that I'm actually seriously agreeing with what the poster is saying. It's probably 'wrong' of me to think this way, but I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[ Parent ]
Here, here. (4.00 / 1) (#56)
by pb on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 06:06:05 PM EST

I was talking to Rusty about this last night; at least he appreciated my funny links. I put a Disclaimer on my Humor now for a reason; sometimes I have to mark funny posts as FUNNY so that people here notice. I Am Not Making This Up.

Basically, there isn't a Humor section on Kuro5hin because too many people on Kuro5hin don't seem to have a sense of humor. I'd love to post appropriate Humor links, MLP or not, here, and I know a lot of people who would appreciate it. But there seem to be many opponents to humor, laughter, and general funniness in any form here.

That's why there should be a place for it; then either those people could skip that section, or the rest of us could make at least a little bit of Kuro5hin a lot more fun.
---
"See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
-- pwhysall
[ Parent ]
Nitpick, OT: Should be "Hear, hear." (5.00 / 1) (#73)
by szap on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:00:17 PM EST

Let's s stamp this misuse out for good. Found one article discussing origin of "Hear, hear." and it's misuse from Google.

[ Parent ]
Who cares? (5.00 / 1) (#75)
by pb on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:12:59 PM EST

Not enough people know what "props" stands for either, and that's recent slang. :)
---
"See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
-- pwhysall
[ Parent ]
Why I think humour works better on Slashdot (4.25 / 4) (#84)
by F'jord on Wed Feb 14, 2001 at 10:40:00 AM EST

On of the things about the rating system on slashdot that may help it contain more humour is that the rating system allows you to say "I'm modding this up because I find it funny" and even more importantly it tells reader that it is highly rated because it is supposed to be humour. I find that when I see a (4: Funny), I get into a different mindset: one that is looking to be entertained. If you are reading serious post after serious post, and you come across a nonserious one, it's easy to get upset by it and then mark it down.

[ Parent ]
I agree completely (none / 0) (#86)
by Wah on Wed Feb 14, 2001 at 11:40:28 AM EST

it helps a LOT in this kind of environment to know that a joke is coming. They only have one chance to be funny, and if you think they are serious, that chance is gone. Personally I've been advocating a different color text box for "jokes", like the editorial/topical distinction. Maybe lavender would work well...
--
Fail to Obey?
[ Parent ]
Attack moderation (4.28 / 28) (#6)
by spiralx on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 10:55:03 AM EST

Well one thing I've noticed is that there are certain people here on k5 who seem to think that moderation is a way to express their personal opinion of a post, and will rate down to 1 (or even zero!) any posts with which they personally disagree with, no matter how well written they are.

This is exactly the problem that /. has with moderation in that people moderate things down because they disagree with them. Thankfully, mojo and k5 are much more resistant to this kind of thing than karma and /. are, where a single negative rating can push a comment below the thresholds of many users.

Personally I tend to avoid rating replies to threads in which I'm participating, because if it's a hot topic it's hard to be objective about it. And since you can see who has rated your comments, it's easy to get pissed off with someone rating your comments down without bothering to reply. It's pretty cowardly really. Although the saddest are those that find a comment they don't like, and then go through that user's posting history and mod all of their posts down.

OTOH some people here pay waaay too much attention to what ratings they get. I mean, does it really matter what your mojo is? The only difference I can see is that it makes you an untrusted/trusted user, and as a trusted user I rarely have to exercise the dreaded zero rating. There's no real reason to be worried about what your rating is.

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey

My personal experience (2.55 / 9) (#14)
by iCEBaLM on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:34:48 AM EST

I had this exact scenario you describe played out on me over an Abortion Article. It's really disheartening to see this kind of action.

-- iCEBaLM

[ Parent ]

Please don't lie. (2.70 / 10) (#19)
by puzzlingevidence on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:40:06 AM EST

You didn't have that exact sceanrio. You received a 2 (not a 1), and not because I disagreed with your posting, but because it was a "normal, slightly inane" comment.

You only got a 1 after you started retaliating against my comments.

---
A man may build a throne of bayonets, but he can not sit on it. --Inge
[ Parent ]

Well (3.71 / 7) (#35)
by Inoshiro on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 01:47:46 PM EST

"You only got a 1 after you started retaliating against my comments."

Ahem -- way to be immature.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Oh, of course. (3.40 / 5) (#43)
by puzzlingevidence on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 03:10:43 PM EST

Yes, naturally it's OK to call me immature for retaliation, but not to make the same call on the original offender.

Way to be hypocritical.

---
A man may build a throne of bayonets, but he can not sit on it. --Inge
[ Parent ]

Tsk tsk (3.66 / 3) (#74)
by Inoshiro on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:04:31 PM EST

You're making assumptions. I was merely saying that using wacky ratings, versus proper discourse, is an immature thing to do. By doing it, you were being immature. If he was doing it, he was being immature. Why can't you seem to make the connection that I apply this to everyone equally, and am not just trying to make you into some example? Stop being so self-centred :p



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Fair enough. (3.33 / 3) (#76)
by puzzlingevidence on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:47:24 PM EST

Fair enough; mea culpa.

---
A man may build a throne of bayonets, but he can not sit on it. --Inge
[ Parent ]

LOL (3.33 / 3) (#20)
by spiralx on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:48:20 AM EST

Ah, an example. How kind :)

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

I totally agree--I smell a "Feature" Pos (3.00 / 1) (#42)
by kostya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 02:43:24 PM EST

I totally agree with not moderating on threads you particpate in. It's something I personally observe as best I can, trying to not moderate of threads I'm in. I usually vote to support people who keep the discussion going, even if I'm in the middle of arguing with them. I like the discussion more than anything. Hell, I practically harassed rainy on his education article, but I kept trying to mod up the discussion enabling posts. We kept going for a while.

Additionally, I tend to leave "flame" posts or "rude" posts that are in response to my comments unmoderated. I figure I don't have a clear mind on these posts anyways. Usually some other reader will come along and either validate my thinking or make me stop and think.

"Wait, that guy was a jerk. Why did he get a 3?"

Which usually results in me re-examining my posts :-) I could see someone turning this non-moderation into a feature request article. But with multiple accounts and such, it would be pretty pointless.



----
Veritas otium parit. --Terence
[ Parent ]
There should be two ratings (none / 0) (#78)
by bjrubble on Wed Feb 14, 2001 at 01:33:45 AM EST

I think it's naive to believe that people will ever rate articles without consideration for their personal opinions. I know I don't come here to judge writing, I come here to express my opinion. One opinion I frequently have is "I agree with that comment" and seeing as a comment whose entire text is "I agree with that comment" is useless and rightly frowned upon, there is a powerful temptation to express agreement (or disagreement, as it may be) through the oh-so-convenient and prominent rating system.

I think there should be two ratings, one for the quality of the post and one for the "quality" of the opinion. The opinion scores should also be displayed as two metrics, popularity and controversy, so that a controversial minority opinion is distinguished from a bland mainstream one.

Fortunately, Kuro5hin is still small enough that you can simply read through the threads by date, and don't have to filter or prioritize based on user rankings.

[ Parent ]
No... (3.50 / 10) (#7)
by baberg on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:11:24 AM EST

...if stories start getting overwhelming votes of "0, Don't Care" then authors will eventually get the point

I don't see it working that way. What does one look at when they track a story in the submission queue? The look at the score. I know that I rarely pay attention to the total number of votes given to a story (except that brief peroid where stories would hang around for over a week; then I just wanted to laugh).

Using the theory of "If you don't like it / don't want to discuss it / etc then vote 0" means that 99% of the stories that get placed into the submission queue will get voted up almost immediately. I don't think this is a good idea; Although it keeps the front page from stagnating (and $DEITY knows we need help with that) then it becomes a race to comment on something before it falls into the oblivion of off-page. I for one enjoy seeing a story stick around for a while; it allows for the discussion to adequately mature and makes sure that everybody can comment/follow-up easily.

Where was I going... Oh yeah. Simply voting 0 on every story that you don't want to see will not stop the problem, IMO. If a story is badly written, encourages flames, jumps to conclusions, or if I question the author's motivations for writing it, then I will vote -1. That is my discouragement to that author.

And yes, I know about the new posting rules that rusty initiated a little while back. If memory serves, that comes into play at around 600 votes, and if it has a score of over 60 (I think) then it'll get posted. That means that, for a story to be dropped, 540 people would vote 0, and only 60 voting 1. That doesn't seem right to me.



Out of context. (3.33 / 3) (#12)
by regeya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:30:20 AM EST

Using the theory of "If you don't like it / don't want to discuss it / etc then vote 0" means that 99% of the stories that get placed into the submission queue will get voted up almost immediately.
I doubt it. I've not seen this theory tested in practice yet here on kuro5hin.

Where was I going... Oh yeah. Simply voting 0 on every story that you don't want to see will not stop the problem, IMO. If a story is badly written, encourages flames, jumps to conclusions, or if I question the author's motivations for writing it, then I will vote -1. That is my discouragement to that author.
You're taking that out of context. To use a more complete, accurate quote:

If the subject matter doesn't interest you, vote "0, Don't Care" and move on. If you don't like MLP, vote "0" and move on. If you don't like Culture, vote 0 and move on. Even a vote of 0 is a vote against a story with the current voting system, and if stories start getting overwhelming votes of "0, Don't Care" then authors will eventually get the point. :-)
I never meant to imply that I thought everything should be voted on at 0 and never at -1. I'm just expressing the opinion that people may be voting -1 on things they're not interested in, rather than giving a story a fair shake for people who might be interested in the material. Do you leave your umbrella home on a rainy day so that you can complain about getting rained on? Do you eat garbage so you can complain about the poor quality of your food? If not, why bother attacking a story that may be well-written, sincere, yet something that you either don't agree with or are not interested in? If it's well-written and sincere, yet uninteresting, vote 0, please.

Somehow, I question your motives for writing that comment... ;-)

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

Irony (4.66 / 3) (#21)
by baberg on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:50:26 AM EST

Somehow, I question your motives for writing that comment... ;-)

I question yours.

I could write a well-written article, sincerely, about my morning ritual of waking up, showering, reading K5 and my favorite comics (Penny-Arcade and PvPonline), glance at USAToday, and then head out the door to class / work, depending on which day it is.

I'm in technology; I'm describing my culture. And how much more "in the trenches" can you get than my morning routine? There may be people out there who are interested in what things go on in my house in the morning (though I hope not). They will find it interesting. Thus, even if you (and most of K5, honestly...) find it uninteresting, then you should vote 0 because of the small percentage of people who might actually be interested (in this case, I'd be lucky with 0.01%).

Look. My point is this. Nobody can pin down exactly what deserves to be on K5. Nobody can tell me how I should vote on a certain story. K5 is a living creature; the tastes change with each new user who joins. If a good story gets left by the wayside, so be it. I agree that people should not vote down stories by a certain author. I agree that people should not vote down a story simply because they disagree with what is being said. I do not agree that a story should be voted up just because it's well written. It also has to be interesting.

[ Parent ]

Nnngh! Nnnnguh! (4.50 / 2) (#24)
by leviathan on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 12:20:08 PM EST

Uggngh! I'm resisting the urge to post a link to the dictionary.com definition of culture. Suffice to say, one man does not a culture make.

Absolutely agree that what makes k5's feel is what k5's voting audience wants it to be (modulated by what sort of thing gets submitted). I think you've misread the new voting rules slightly, as they do not mean that 540 people need to vote 0 for it to be dropped. It does mean that at the cut off point, the votes are tallied with 0 actually being negative and the votes for all the (topical) comments tallied there as well. If a story has been getting good discussion but it's been voted 0 by a lot of people, it'll go up, and conversely even if a fair few people voted +1 (section) to a story, if it's just been gathering flames it'll go down.

This does rely on decent rating of comments, with people voting on in spite of their opinions. To quote myself:

Provided the [internal] logic is sound [...] I'll give it a 3 or a 4. If it's funny as well, or makes me think a bit I'll give it a 5.
It goes without saying that if it doesn't meet those criteria, it gets a 2. If it's (non-funny) flamage, 1. If it's pure noise, intended to disrupt and then only will I give it a 0. Nowhere in that equation does it include whether I actually agree with the basis of the logic itself, whether I agree with the conclusion. Rating based on objective evalutations of worth will mean the right stories go up.

--
I wish everyone was peaceful. Then I could take over the planet with a butter knife.
- Dogbert
[ Parent ]
What are you arguing? (3.00 / 4) (#26)
by regeya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 12:40:58 PM EST

You're essentially regurgitating everything I said and implied, to a certain degree.
Look. My point is this. Nobody can pin down exactly what deserves to be on K5. Nobody can tell me how I should vote on a certain story. K5 is a living creature; the tastes change with each new user who joins. If a good story gets left by the wayside, so be it. I agree that people should not vote down stories by a certain author. I agree that people should not vote down a story simply because they disagree with what is being said. I do not agree that a story should be voted up just because it's well written. It also has to be interesting.
That's essentially what I'm trying to advocate; that people vote based on what they want. On the other hand, I'm trying to advocate that people not vote against what other people would like. All it would take to kill a story right now is for 20 people to hit the queue and vote -1 as soon as the story hits the queue. Should 20 people get to decide whether or not the other 10,000 or so readers will find interesting? I think not, but then again, that's my opinion. All I'm advocating is that people not post their diatribes about why a story needs to be voted down, why kuro5hin needs killfiles, why they think it's stupid a story got voted up, or whatever.

I also wish people would just, if for example they don't like MLP, just vote 0 instead of -1 on them. I've seen it said by people that MLP has no place here, and that we're all tired of it. Says who? Says one person? Says a small group that has 20 more members than those who voted an MLP up? Sheesh, if you don't like a section, ignore it, vote 0, essentially leave it alone and let other people enjoy it. That's all I'm saying.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

This is interesting. (4.50 / 2) (#40)
by blixco on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 02:33:15 PM EST

I didn't get this at all from your post, and I don't know why. Maybe because the point was buried in the last graph, thus my initial response (wherein I ask what you want from the site).

More than anything, we're developing these "culture nazi's" here. It's a strange effect.

Most of all, I'm just damn tired of the discussion. Let the site happen. It'll be good or bad, we'll make that determination.
-------------------------------------------
The root of the problem has been isolated.
[ Parent ]

Contradictions and muddles (5.00 / 1) (#50)
by itsbruce on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 04:56:39 PM EST

You seem to be saying that people shouldn't say what they want (because you don't like what they say) but should only vote for what they want. Why is your voice so much more acceptable than theirs? You've written a whole story about what you like and don't like - do you really begrudge other people an editorial comment?

That's essentially what I'm trying to advocate; that people vote based on what they want. On the other hand, I'm trying to advocate that people not vote against what other people would like

That seems entirely contradictory to me. I vote for what I want. I don't look over my shoulder to try and work out what other people would want. What happens if I want to vote in a way that will oppose the wishes of others? You seem to be saying I can't vote at all.

The whole point about a vote is that it expresses the voter's opinion/desire. You seem to want to restrict that expression.


--

It is impolite to tell a man who is carrying you on his shoulders that his head smells.
[ Parent ]
Of course. (3.00 / 1) (#67)
by regeya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 07:16:29 PM EST

You're absolutely correct. You're such a frickin' genius, Bruce. I wasn't trying to sway public opinion at all. I was just trying to shove a message down people's throats. I'm working on an evil plan to coerce Rusty and Inoshiro to give me administrator access so that I can restrict the rights of voters here, then move to state level, then national level, and then become the DICTATOR OF THE WORLD! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Jeez, could you fall down and bleed a little louder?

I'm not even going to argue with you anymore because I have no idea where you're getting things like:

You seem to be saying I can't vote at all.
and
The whole point about a vote is that it expresses the voter's opinion/desire. You seem to want to restrict that expression.
Which, to be blunt, makes your sig
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." -- Joseph Stalin
seem pretty DAMN hilarious.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

what what?? (2.88 / 9) (#8)
by rebelcool on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:18:27 AM EST

are you insinuating i have no sense of humor? I dont find this funny at all! How dare you use humor! I hate you I vote you down! You go to hell and you die!

ha? ha.

COG. Build your own community. Free, easy, powerful. Demo site

Irony (3.41 / 12) (#11)
by enterfornone on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:20:53 AM EST

I agree with you as far as reading the mission statement goes. As the mission statement says, K5 is about technology and culture discussion. I have often pondered out loud why people vote up stories that fall far outside of this mission.

However during all of that you were one of the main people telling me to shut the fuck up. And Rusty was continually defending the right of voters to vote up whatever the damn well pleased regardless of the mission (or the quality of the articles).

Evenually I gave up, yet it seems of late many are coming around to my way of thinking. Funny how things turn out isn't it.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.

dude (2.00 / 3) (#15)
by regeya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:36:03 AM EST

However during all of that you were one of the main people telling me to shut the fuck up.
Really, there was no need for that. Not my post, and I'm sorry for that. There really wasn't any need for that. Since you're going to be petty, I'll point out that I feel that you're been part of the problem in the past. Try to decide if you're the abuser, the abused, both, or neither. I'd rather you just be a fellow reader, and just fucking get over it already.

BTW, when are you going to get that replacing Linux with Win2K story done? I'm looking forward to it, believe it or not.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

when (2.87 / 8) (#18)
by enterfornone on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:40:01 AM EST

When I buy the massive amounts of RAM I'll need :)

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
Who determines? (3.00 / 1) (#39)
by blixco on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 02:26:56 PM EST

Seriously, I don't see a clear definition anywhere that says what to post and what not to post. "Culture" covers a lot of ground. We have headings like Freedom and Politics, Op-Ed, and the like. The mission statement says nothing, really, except that crap will be voted down.

What's the "crap," then? Where is "quality" defined? I'm not trying to call out the symantecs here, all I'm saying is that what I define as technology and culture, you'd probably define as crap. But we have a couple of thousand people voting on whather they think it's crap or not. And what they think = what makes the site.

For me, I'm limiting my posting (except replies) to technology only, in order not to "stray" from the "path." I'm finding / inventing new outlets for my "culture" posts, until all this "Kuro5hin is falling apart / losing focus" crap ends.
-------------------------------------------
The root of the problem has been isolated.
[ Parent ]

the whole point of this... (none / 0) (#62)
by regeya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 07:05:19 PM EST

My primary point of posting this was to (hopefully!) get people to vote +1 on things they thought were good, -1 on things they thought were bad, 0 on things they didn't give a shit about, and STFU about people voting "wrong." If ever the "this ain't Slashdot" comment was appropriate, it's when someone decides to post a comment saying "why is this getting voted up?" It's like saying, "Hey Taco, I don't like this story. Why'd ya vote it up?"

The secondary point was to get people to realize how immature it is to vote a story down because they want the front page to stay the way it is a couple of days, or that they don't like the author, or it takes a viewpoint opposite theirs...

...essentially, to think, let others think for themselves, and grow up. After all, this isn't Slashdot. ;-)

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

oops, typo (none / 0) (#63)
by regeya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 07:06:36 PM EST

<BLOCKQUOTE>
"Hey Taco, I don't like this story. Why'd ya vote it up?"
</BLOCKQUOTE>
should read
<BLOCKQUOTE>
"Hey Taco, I don't like this story. Why'd ya post this?"
</BLOCKQUOTE>

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

Culture (4.00 / 1) (#66)
by Tatarigami on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 07:14:45 PM EST

Well, this is where a discussion group moves out of the realm of the theoretical -- discussing culture -- and into the practical, becoming one.

These days when I come across an interesting new idea or event, I find myself wondering what K5 would make of it. There's a decent amount of intelligence in here. Even on an issue where a consensus is reached pretty quickly, someone always manages to come up with a few new points to be considered.

(Goddammit, I swore I was going to be a surly bastard until at least lunchtime, and here I am paying compliments...)


[ Parent ]
Are we supposed to abandon critical thinking? (3.75 / 20) (#22)
by yankeehack on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 11:50:43 AM EST

I can't begin to count the number of times I've seen people state, "(I can't vote this up|you shouldn't vote this up) because it's (Signal11|Anne Marie|whomever)." While the parties involved may annoy you, you should at least try to evaluate what they're trying to say in an objective manner.

I understand your idea, but it is unfeasible, and I will explain why. Way back a while ago, while a liberal arts major in college, I had to read a lot of coursework. The one theme which was pounded into my thick skull after reading all of that crap was that each author, no matter what they claim, has an agenda to forward and it is important to identify the underlying agenda. In other words, I assess a work not only on the quality of the facts that are presented, but I actively look for clues between the lines that would give me insight about the author (are the facts supporting an opinion? what is omitted? etc.) For example, when assessing written work in the political arena, who the author is nearly overshadows whatever subject being discussed. Would you look at a work by Rush Limbaugh the same as a work by Ted Kennedy?

The reason why I am discussing this is because of the percieved agendas of the two authors you mentioned. (disclaimer:I disagree with that assement of Signal 11, but nevertheless) One of the things that discomfits me about the account known as Anne Marie is that the WHAT-WHERE-WHEN-WHY-HOW are always nailed in the articles posted, but the WHO is glaringly missing. (Presumably because if the account identified itself, it could not then be efficient at identifying whatever today's current outrage is. The account gives new meaning to the phrase "being all things to all people".) And without the WHO stated, I refuse to vote for a story, because a vital source of information is withheld.


No one who was bad in bed has ever been good in life (i.e. liberals, I've never had sex with a liberal woman who knew how to use her body.) Keeteel :-P I'm *right*!

Agreed... (4.25 / 4) (#25)
by regeya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 12:25:48 PM EST

...and it sounds like you're actually reading the Anne Marie posts, not just dumping them "because they're Anne Marie." Maybe it's my imagination, but I've seen posts that seem to indicate that some peope just automatically vote Anne Marie posts down, simply because they're Anne Marie. If we succumb to that sort of behavior, what's next? Automatically voting down every Sig11 story? Every story that mentions Linux? Every story that mentions abortion? Every story that mentions Christianity?

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

Critical thinking seems a lost cause (4.25 / 4) (#29)
by 0xdeadbeef on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 12:55:33 PM EST

You don't need to know who an author is evaluate the agenda of something you read. In fact, it is better not to know, because otherwise your own bias influences your judgement. These postmodernist wonks in the humanities have taken a very good idea (read between the lines) and replaced it with a stupid one (the messenger is more important than the message).

The funny thing is, it is quite clear the the person behind the Anne Marie experiment is aware of this. His articles are always very week on facts and heavy on calculated rhetoric, and generally include references to postmodernist ideology (like the latest article that quoted Carol Smart). And his cronies actually use this fallacy of postmodernism to defend "her"!

[ Parent ]
Postmodernistic wonks? (4.00 / 1) (#61)
by rusty on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 06:59:29 PM EST

Ok, this is kind of OT, but I have to quibble with that assessment. The "author's intent" school of criticism was the New Critics, who were modernists to the core. The idea there was that by knowing the whole body of an author's work, you could place any piece within it and divine it's ultimate meaning. Auteurists in film study went along the same lines.

The postmodern view is that is doesn't make any difference who the author is or what they "meant" to say, but that the critic may determine the meaning of a piece without reference to anything but the text.

So, your point still stands, but only if you reverse who is responsible for what. The postmodernists advocate what you like, the new critics were the ones who relied on the author.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

A General Guide on K5 Expectations (4.62 / 24) (#27)
by lucas on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 12:46:11 PM EST

What I think people expect at K5 is content. I don't think many people get modded down who have a quality-crafted story, though MLP's and stories without summaries get thrown out often as do rants. Even the most fervent supporters of free software don't like to read a half-page about why you love Linux... or, even worse, yet another link to a story on CNET about why Bluetooth is the Next Best Thing.

I will mod up pieces that I disagree with if they're written well. If you're against free software and you make some consistent points and cite weaknesses, you get a +1 from me. Most of the time, however, these pieces read like fundamentalist pamphlets.

My recommendations for people who are having problems writing for K5: (these are just my observations; they could be true or false)

  • Make certain your points are clear; use bullet points if you have to.

  • Try not to use polemic language, no name-calling. Sure, it's offensive to people. That's life -- get over it. After your 2-page angry diatribe has hit -5, as if it couldn't be worse, do not start calling people names (e.g., "this is censorship! you are oppressors!") .

  • Conspiracy theories are going to be modded down. If there is one, portray it in a manner than does not sound like you are trying to scare people or screw with their emotions.

  • Open-ended stories are likely to be modded down without reposting the text of the original article within the K5 article. (e.g., "This article (link) is interesting, what do you think?")

  • Slashdot rehashes are likely to be modded down, but not always.

  • Freedom articles are likely to be modded up, even low-quality ones. If you really want to post an article, make sure it has something to do with freedom and post it. Everyone has an opinion about freedom and they are quite willing to share it.

  • MLP's are likely to be modded down.

  • If you support something, don't come out and say you support something and that it's soooo great because people will poke holes in it just to spite you. You've got to be more objective than that -- understand and address the weaknesses. Don't lay your personal ego out on the line with an article because you will get trampled on.

  • Commentary can turn your article from -5 to +5 easily... and it doesn't have to be positive or negative. You can get all negatives, though because people are talking about it others will think about it and reconsider the issue. Some people vote things up that the Mainstream votes down. When someone suggests a correction or makes a point about an issue, begin (or stimulate) positive discussion.

  • Having your article "ditched" isn't humiliating because 99% of the people don't remember who you were, anyway, and really don't care. If you make an issue and complain about the "injustice", they *will* remember you... as a whiner, though, instead of a writer. When people tell you to resubmit, this is a compliment because they like what you're saying and actually *want* you to succeed.

  • People on K5 are nutty about spelling errors and will -1 you because of it. I tend to give the writer the benefit of the doubt unless it is something really obnoxious and repetitive. If you're a bad speller, don't post anything without using a spell-checker.

  • Above all, realize that this is a project like anything else -- once the project grows and more people start placing their input into it, it is never as tight or as focused as the original. K5 hasn't strayed per se. IMHO, it is coping with the influx of people rather nicely. Whether this is from the software or the type of people who visit here, I have no idea.

  • Advocacy (4.40 / 5) (#33)
    by ucblockhead on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 01:42:13 PM EST

    If you support something, don't come out and say you support something and that it's soooo great because people will poke holes in it just to spite you.

    That is true everywhere, BTW. You are often better off laying out the evidence for your opinions without your conclusions. People are less likely to go into knee-jerk mode that way, and things are a lot less likely to degenerate into flame wars. More importantly, it means that no one, including you, is invested in the results of the argument, and thus everyone, including you, is less likely to dig in their heals and stop talking objectively.
    -----------------------
    This is k5. We're all tools - duxup
    [ Parent ]

    The Emperor is wearing a beautiful new suit... (2.00 / 3) (#87)
    by mugwump on Wed Feb 14, 2001 at 11:52:01 AM EST

    Conspiracy theories are going to be modded down. If there is one, portray it in a manner than does not sound like you are trying to scare people or screw with their emotions.

    Yeah... don't post any conspiracy theories, because the governments of the world are completely free from corruption.

    There's no hunger, fighting, disease... everyone is catered for, there is nobody being persecuted for victimless crimes...

    Personally I think disestablishment should have its own section of the site :-)

     


    Warning: this post may contain traces of bullshit.
    [ Parent ]
    It is what it is, man (3.80 / 10) (#28)
    by marlowe on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 12:48:43 PM EST

    It's beyond any one person's power to control. Even a moderator's. That's a kind of success, I suppose.

    And there's no way to please anyone. There's a lot here I don't like, but I don't insist on having things my way as a right. I just make the best of it. Besides, it doesn't all suck.

    Kinda like life.

    -- The Americans are the Jews of the 21st century. Only we won't go as quietly to the gas chambers. --
    notslashdot.org (4.05 / 18) (#30)
    by babylago on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 01:31:20 PM EST

    This domain is available. We could register it and redirect it to kuro5hin.org. Then there could be no argument that kuro5hin is notslashdot.

    ---
    [ Blog | Hunnh ]
    rofl! (3.50 / 2) (#37)
    by Inoshiro on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 02:03:01 PM EST

    Very nice :) A k5 redirector would certainly be more visually pleasing than a goatse.cx redirector.



    --
    [ イノシロ ]
    [ Parent ]
    And the shorthand would be... (4.66 / 3) (#55)
    by minusp on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 05:37:13 PM EST

    !/.
    Remember, regime change begins at home.
    [ Parent ]
    Thoughts (4.17 / 17) (#31)
    by br284 on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 01:38:28 PM EST

    A couple of things...

    First of all, I find this whole idea of trying to be neutral and take into account what others may think about a story to be silly and self defeating. First of all, being one of the vaporous "other readers", I have no damn conception of what may interest you in terms of articles or stories as you have just as much as a nonconception of what you think I want to read. Seeing how I am unable to guess how one of the other readers in the system -- it seems silly that I should vote "Don't Care" for an MLP that I find genuinely annoying just because someone else might appreciate it. If I cannot discern the tastes of one random user, how am I going to be able to accurately discern the taste of ten thousand?

    That being said, I will be the first to admit that I take a completely selfish role when it comes to my interactions within k5. I am not reading and contributing to this site because I am interested in enriching someone else -- I'm doing it strictly to enrich myself. And acting in such a capacity, if I find a story that bugs me, I will vote it down accordingly. One example of this are the MLP stories. If I wanted to read MLPs I would have stayed on Slashdot. And to be honest, I place MLPs under much higher scrutiny than I do anything else. The reason for this is that I find them to be annoying and an avenue for people who want the jollies of posting a story without the work of a well thought-out composition. I am here for the original thoughts of the authors, and not what someone finds on the Internet. For the record, of the last fifteen or so MLPs, I have voted only one up and the most of the rest down, with a very few numbers of "Don't Care". I figure that this is the most legit and democratic way for me to send a message of what I want k5 to be.

    While I will vote this story up because I find it interesting and it provokes a good discussion, for the most part, I feel that you are just peeved that people are not voting as you feel is proper. Get over it. It happens and is completely healthy for a community such as k5.

    -Chris

    whoever added the poll options: (2.22 / 9) (#32)
    by regeya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 01:41:23 PM EST

    thanks.

    [ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]

    Greetings, fellow kuro5hin readers :-) (2.70 / 10) (#36)
    by regeya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 01:57:38 PM EST

    I'm working on a poll about the voting habits of kuro5hin readers, their likes and dislikes, etc. I've got some ideas, but if you can think of anything you'd like me to cover in the poll, please post your ideas here or here. Thanks. :-)

    [ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]

    oh dear GOD. (4.00 / 2) (#53)
    by regeya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 05:22:40 PM EST

    Perhaps instead of rating the parent comment down, you could help me out and post some suggestions.

    [ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
    [ Parent ]

    What do you want? (4.10 / 10) (#38)
    by blixco on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 02:17:38 PM EST

    I'm not here to argue for or against these things, but rather to argue that people read the mission statement and take it to heart. To some of us, that's what was so appealing about kuro5hin in the first place: A place where we could discuss technology and culture, and that stories could and would be evaluated by the readers, and accepted or rejected for valid reasons.
    I'm confused by your stance and your statement. Should we have rules, or should we be allowed to decide what happens with the site? You seem to want the site to have a focus and intent, but then refute the focus and intent.

    Be selfish for a second: what do you want? What would make this site the best of all possible worlds for you? This is a serious question; I don't think you've actually stated anything in this piece except that Kuro5hin is a place, and it has a mission statement, and the mission statement says, basically, that we'll all cooperate in creating (something very vague and impossible to define). So we're doing it, we're creating this environment. I've taken it to heart. A rogue admin got the best of me, and all of my posts are technical in nature (save for one diary entry). Is that the intent? The mission statement (as a statement of purpose) is so vague that the best we can hope for is that people will read it, understand that they shape the site, and shape the site.

    And it appears to be working.

    The rambling about the intent of k5 is getting ridiculous. Is it a tech site? Is it a culture site? Is it a site? What do you want it to be? What did you expect?
    -------------------------------------------
    The root of the problem has been isolated.

    BINGO! (3.75 / 4) (#41)
    by regeya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 02:42:57 PM EST

    The mission statement (as a statement of purpose) is so vague that the best we can hope for is that people will read it emphasis mine, understand that they shape the site, and shape the site.
    That, in essense, is all I'm saying. I really don't think that kuro5hin needs a sharper focus. I really don't! The problem I've observed (real or imagined) is that there are people who seem to think that kuro5hin is about one small little thing, that being a particular category they're interested in. For instance, I read a comment a few nights ago that said something along the lines of "kuro5hin is a site for technical discussion." Well, yeah, but it's also many other things. People seem to be so afraid that kuro5hin will turn into Slashdot, memepool or something else that they fail to notice that it's turning into a more educated Reader's Digest.

    Yes, I know that Reader's Digest has a fairly broad focus. What I mean is that some people seem to want only stories about culture that generate interesting discussion, or only stories about technology that generate interesting discussion, and sometimes both. I realize that most readers fall somewhere in between, like you and I. Culture==good. Technology==good. Culture+Technology==good. All of them are bad if the writeup, research, and/or reasoning are bad. But the people who post comments like "I find the author annoying" or "This 'Linux==good, Microsoft==bad' stuff is getting old, we don't want it" is damned irritating. In the former, well, it's just their opinion. In the latter, the sentiment expressed may be due to a real or (as I've seen) imagined sentiment expressed in a story.

    I'm sure I'm not the only one who get irritated at the vocal minority. Now don't get me wrong: I don't find it annoying that they're vocal. I find it irritating that some of the vocal minority attempt to speak on behalf of the majority.

    Then again, that's why I'm putting together a poll: to figure out how people really stand on several issues.

    [ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
    [ Parent ]

    OK, now I get it. (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by blixco on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 03:11:35 PM EST

    Thanks for clearing it up. So let's make it work, now, and damn what the "others" think.....since the "others" are, apparently, us.
    -------------------------------------------
    The root of the problem has been isolated.
    [ Parent ]
    Thanks for saying all this! (3.88 / 9) (#45)
    by dbarker on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 03:37:57 PM EST

    It's funny this story came up now, but I was talking about this very same problem with a friend in the labs a few days ago. I personaly feel that K5 as a group of people seems too ready to vote an article/comment out of existence... As an example, there was a story posted by a self confessed troll a few days ago asking for some advice as the admin of a site he had trolled all over was trying to pursue legal proceedings against him.

    We(k5) then proceeded to tell this troll that his sort wasn't wanted here, and modded him out of existence. In the process, we managed to kill an article in which we could have discussed:

    1. The TECHNOLOGY behind stopping trolling on sites
    2. The various CULTURAL implications of trolls... (a slightly weak argument I know... ;)
    3. And possibly most importantly, did we just kill a possible piece of evidence in legal proceedings against a self confessed, well known troll?

    I wish I could remember more about the story, but now there's no record of it anywhere on the site....

    Dave :)
    The Herd Mentality? (3.50 / 8) (#47)
    by Morn on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 04:11:04 PM EST

    Try to avoid reading other people's comments before voting on a story. Negative comments tend to color a person's perception of the overall quality of the subject matter at hand. Read it for yourself, and read the whole thing, not just the first paragraph. Just as you can't judge a book by its cover, you can't judge a story on its first paragraph.
    Yes - I've noticed that the posivite/negative voting ratio on new stories often changes dramatically after the first editorial commend is posted, leaning towards the opinion of the poster of that comment.

    I totally agree. (none / 0) (#49)
    by Seumas on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 04:50:50 PM EST

    I agree. It's obvious that one or two critical editorial posts will doom a submission. Sometimes this is good, though. For example, I've seen people vote things up that have attrocious mistakes in them. But once a couple people post editorial comments about the mistakes, the story is soon voted into oblivion and the author usually tries again.

    On the other side of things, a couple of unique points of view can set the pace for the rest of the submission's life, even when the general consensus would otherwise obviously be to post it.

    I tend to make my mind up and then read the editorial comments. If I find them to be valid points, I may even decide to change my original vote. If not, then I won't. The problem is when people don't read the article -- or just skim it and then see what other people think and vote according to that alone. Not a lot you can do about that situation though, unless you want to throw up an additional page so that you must read the article before being able to read or post comments about it. This just adds another layer of clicking for the rest of us though, and doesn't actually ensure that everyone reads it anyway.

    Of course, how do you prove this. It's similar to asking whether monkeys in the wild behave the way they do because we're watching them and influencing them or if they would behave the same if we were not present. (There's some formal name for this theory/problem, but I'll be damned if I can recall it at the moment. I hope someone enlightens me though, because I know I'll be all like "damn! i knew that!").
    --
    I just read K5 for the articles.
    [ Parent ]

    Schroedinger's Cat? (none / 0) (#51)
    by Seumas on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 05:00:46 PM EST

    Am I thinking of Schroedinger's Cat? I think I am. Or maybe Schroedinger's Cat was the one with the tail and the room full of rocking chairs . . .
    --
    I just read K5 for the articles.
    [ Parent ]
    I don't think so :) (3.00 / 1) (#80)
    by spiralx on Wed Feb 14, 2001 at 04:28:59 AM EST

    Schrodinger's Cat is the one with a cat in a box which contains a vial of poisonous gas which is set off if an atom radioactively decays. Leave the apparatus for a period of time equal to the atom's half-life and then ask "is the cat alive or dead". Until you look, it's apparently in a superposition of both states according to the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics...

    There are other quantum experiments where behaviour changes according to whether you're observing them. For instance, the more you measure a radioactive atom, the longer it takes to decay, because each time you observe it you "reset" the time and it again has on average its half-life before it decays.

    You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
    [ Parent ]

    Peer pressure . . . (none / 0) (#81)
    by Vainamoinen on Wed Feb 14, 2001 at 05:59:57 AM EST

    This is the very reason that the site I'm busy on does *not* let you see the comments posted to an as yet un-frontpaged submission until you have voted - a vote also requires a short comment why...

    This system will hopfully be improved as time goes along - evetually I hope that the list of reasons for mods up/down will be able to be summarized into less than 8 main reasons, allowing a drop-down selection.

    Users that post submissions may as always have little resources to draw upon and not incluse enough references, for which I have a system in place for ppl to post their own links for a story - flagged as informative/contrary/supportive/relevant.

    The other feature(?) that I have in mind is weighting. This is highly controversial, but a users 'weight' is calculated as modded total / posts. This allows steadfast contributors to put their 'weight' behind articles / posts etc.

    <%if kuro5hin.fear = 'True'
    then response.write "Fear not! It's a local portal site for women..."
    else
    '
    end if%>



    **** Windows has detected a mouse movement. Please restart your computer so changes can take effect ****
    [ Parent ]
    editorial comments (1.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Y Esman on Wed Feb 14, 2001 at 09:37:01 PM EST

    yes, definitely. i also do think that editorial comments do a very good job of letting people know why a story is good or bad. it is very useful.
    - yaniv
    [ Parent ]
    It isn't /so/ bad... (4.11 / 9) (#48)
    by Seumas on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 04:41:22 PM EST

    There are some things that really piss me off around here. I can tolerate a handful of stupid or repetitive stories, if that's what the general population votes up. I can even tolerate the undying viewpoints of some of the staunch idealists on the site -- you know, the people who will NEVER change their viewpoint and do nothing but spread propaganda about their own. Still, it's a viewpoint -- and everyone gets one. Nobody can force you to re-think your opinions or even spend two seconds considering someone elses.

    The only things that get under my skin are the people who very obviously mark comments down because they disagree with it or are offended, instead of whether it is inane or spam. For instance, I see a lot of mini-flames marked as 0, even though 0 is specifically reserved for spam (a 1 should be sufficient for petulant flame-babies). And sometimes when people make a short, sarcastic point, it is construed as trolling or flaming and dropped to a 0. Certainly, a lot of people vote it at a more realistic 1 or even 2, but that doesn't excuse the people who either haven't read the FAQs or don't care to adhere to them.

    Aside from that, I also don't care for the incessent debates about what makes a good story and voting something down, not because it isn't well-written or discussion worthy or even newsworthy, but because "that isn't the kind of site I want this to be!" or "what will people think of K5 if we post another MS-bashing story?!" or "I vote down ALL MLP", etc.

    The things that don't annoy me, but that I'd like to see more of? I'd like to see more individual configurability. Maybe even my own little "homepage" where I can keep track of a few of my favorite posters and other cool stuff. I'd love more technical submissions. I'm a technical person by nature, but I consider myself less-than-average when it comes to knowing a lot of issues and I really enjoy reading experienced people comment on interesting technologies. Likewise, sometimes I wouldn't mind seeing a little less of the "my rights are being violated!" kind of stuff. The extremely rare stuff is interesting, but after awhile, it all sounds the same. I guess I'm at a standoff with that one though, because while I personally get very bored with the privacy/freedom debate, I feel it is important enough that it could never be discussed enough.

    All in all, I'll tell you which website is my default homepage on every machine -- K5. Not Slashdot. Not any other site. Just K5. And I waste more time at K5 than anywhere else. So while things could and should be better, we need to realize we do have it pretty good and as far as such sites go, this is one of the very best. It is in our nature to want more and complain about what we have, no matter how good what we have is. Hell, I have a nice job, work from home and am probably the envy of a lot of people who deserve my job and situation more than I do, but even I still bitch and moan about money, work and everything else associated with it. If I was easily contented, I'd never achieve anything greater. The same goes for Kuro5hin.

    My one piece of advice to everyone would be to keep civil about your K5 complaints. Keep the constructive and don't forget that while you posess a greater picture in your mind of the future of K5, it isn't a catastrophe right now and you should respect the efforts of those involved in running this site, including members such as myself and yourself.
    --
    I just read K5 for the articles.

    THANK YOU. (4.11 / 18) (#52)
    by Jin Wicked on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 05:06:45 PM EST

    Thank you for writing this; I have been wanting to write something similar for awhile now, but didn't want to contribute to the already large number of articles where the k5 users do nothing but sit around and talk about themselves instead of having an interesting discussion.

    One of the most persistent and lingering annoyances I have with this site you touched in the beginning of your article, with this statement: "This is a site for people who want to discuss the world they live in, so long as you do not disturb the mindset of the readers or offend them in any way, shape or form." This is so true. I have never seen such a group of people scared to death of offending others in my entire life. Does anyone here have a backbone? Get an opinion and stand by it, people; no wonder the guv'ment is trampling all over your rights...you're so terrified of conflict all you can do is sit around and complain about things online. Say what you mean, whatever it is -- be prepared to defend it -- and we'll be getting somewhere.

    I am so sick of reading "he's just a troll," "I think this is a troll," "you're going to think I'm a troll," "I'm not sure if this is a troll," "this article is a troll," in the comments on this site. I'm fairly certain I saw an article on the FRONT PAGE with the headline "What is a troll?" only a couple of months ago! Get over it! Honestly, you're flattering yourselves. You are not some group of highly enlightened intellectuals whose moral fortitude is constantly under assault from an evil army of malicious, slack-jawed trolls! Most of the comments posted here on kuro5hin are from people who just want to have their point of view seen, yet anything that goes against the majority opinion here, or even the accepted/tolerated minority, is instantly modded down as a troll. I think there are a large portion of individuals here who are actually afraid to post comments for fear of being labeled trolls by the other users. This can been seen in the constant "disclaimers" being put in posts an articles. "Please, this isn't a troll!" For every person that posts an opinion with a disclaimer like that, how many never get posted at all? I find a site that claims to [or at least its users do] be a forum for open discussion of new thoughts and ideas, but in actuality slaps any new points of view down as soon as the pop up, to be highly hypocritical. Because of your love for modding down viewpoints that don't match your own, you've made kuro5hin into a big wheel that just turns around and spits out the same discussion over and over for any given topic when it comes up. There isn't even much news posted here; just these tired old discussions.

    Another thing that bothers me is the constant Slashdot bashing. Yes, I said the "S" word. SLASHDOT. SLASHDOT! SLASHDOT! SLASHDOT! Have your eyeballs burned up and fallen from their sockets yet? Alot of the people here act like they will. Slashdot is a good site; I personally don't care if it's your cup of tea or not, but it seems to me most of the users here get some kind of sadistic glee from referring to it as "the other site," like it's some kind of inferior entity that doesn't deserve to have its name spoken. It's become fashionable, taken on the trait of mob behaviour. Almost everyone does it, except those who actually READ Slashdot. You know what? At least on /. anything that is well thought out and interesting gets modded up as a "5, Insightful" -- controversial or not -- and then I can read it and decide if it's hot air or not. The users there aren't afraid of their beliefs being shaken up or having a real discussion. Most of the people here are walking on eggshells all the time. And you know what else? People are actually funny sometimes on /. Kuro5hin seems to have this overwhemingly solemn, no-fun attitude that is only occasionally broken in an MLP. It seems to me that most of the people doing the moderating here have their heads so far up their asses [pardon my language] that they think the world would come to some kind of disatrous end should a joke get modded up and people read it.

    I personally find the elitist, intolerant, militantly policitally correct manner of this site to be suffocating. I still continue to read and post, however, because I do know there are some intelligent people amidst all this that may benefit from my point of view, or that will post something insightful. However, I sometimes wonder if wading through all the puffed up ego and reading the same things over and over is worth the effort.

    And that's not a troll. It's my opinion.


    This post was probably not written by the real Jin Wicked. Please see user "butter pie" for Jin's actual posts.


    I'm not sure if this is a troll, but... (3.00 / 1) (#57)
    by infraoctarine on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 06:25:30 PM EST

    I haven't been around K5 for very long, but I have also been wondering about the slashdot obsession. I don't think they are very similar at all. There are many news/discussion sites with a similar format around, each catering to their own niche. Slashdot is tech news oriented. K5 tech/culture with lenghty discussions. Nanodot is for nanotechnology; aceshardware for hardware news; rootprompt for unix, etc. I could go on and on listing sites with a similar format, but different kind of content. So what's with the K5-Slashdot bashing? Can anyone explain?

    And this is not a troll either. ( Oh no, now I said the word again :)

    [ Parent ]

    Slashdot Obsession (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by IntlHarvester on Fri Feb 16, 2001 at 04:42:04 PM EST

    Part of my ongoing perception of K5 is that while the site definately has it's own agenda and character, a good number of the posters seem to be refugees from Slashdot and want nothing more than a nicer/better version of the same.

    Of course, Slashdot is the kind of place where you can type in what you feel to be a valid and fully formed post, and some Anonymous person can call you a "fucktard" and "wrong", and that's all the feedback you'll get. On the other hand, it's also the sort of place where you'll get called out on whatever ideological standpoint you're coming from, and if you aren't careful you'll be baited into revealing it yourself. Historically, this is the place where people go who can't or don't want to hack that.

    K5 has done a great job, in general, of having a pretty good signal/noise ratio. However, taking away the "survival of the fittest" and having no noise is often at the cost of low signal.

    [ Parent ]
    Trolls, and why they are bad (4.50 / 4) (#58)
    by aphrael on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 06:28:06 PM EST

    There is a difference between discussing something to see what interesting thoughts come out of it when ideas clash, and arguing for the point of hearing your own voice (or seeing your own words in print). The former is fun, and is one of the things this site is supposed to be about; the latter is not.

    A troll is a post which will result in the latter. Usually they are poorly researched and use deliberately inflammatory language; they play fast and loose with statistics and fail to cite sources. (The occasional troll which is well-researched and doesn't use deliberately inflammatory language can be incredibly entertaining).

    The problem with arguments spawned by trolls is that they can sufficiently raise the level of noise that it becomes impossible to find any signal. A good example of this, for those who remember, is how soc.culture.russian would periodically be overrun with arguments between armenians and turks about events that took place in Anatolia at the end of the first world war; when that would happen the signal would drop to zero, and the flame war would gobble up *everything* in its path.

    That isn't to say that the fear of trolling can't be equally as bad, in a different way: if people are afraid to say anything at all, then it's stifling.

    What i'm seeing happen at K5 isn't that so much as it is a slightly different type of intellectual arrogance: unwillingness to admit when you don't know. I'm guilty of this to a certain extent; a post of mine about .NET got moderated down explicitly for that reason (as the guy who moderated it to 1 told me in email). But it's rampant; the level of research involved in a lot of the posts that have come by in the last month has been minimal, and there's been a lot of third-hand or fourth-hand knowledge presented as fact. This is tremendously destabilizing to a discussion community; when two people start disagreeing about "facts", nobody on the outside can tell whom to trust, and the temptation to view something as a troll just because it disagrees with you is higher.

    To a certain extent --- and i'm primarily off in diary-land and only occasionally venture back into story-land, which makes the difference between the story threads of today and the story threads of three or four months ago seem even starker to me --- it feels like there is too much talking and not enough thinking --- the deep reflection of the sort from which new ideas spring, or the consideration of how the other guy's viewpoint meshes with yours, and where the consistencies are and where the inconsistencies are. Is the point to argue or is the point to talk, and think, and see what ideas come out of the intersection of the two? I came to K5 because I thought the point was the latter; it's seeming recently like many people here think the point is the former. Not everyone, by any means, but a lot of them. I don't know what to do about it, tho.

    You know what? At least on /. anything that is well thought out and interesting gets modded up as a "5, Insightful" -- controversial or not -- and then I can read it and decide if it's hot air or not

    I suspect that you have the causality chain backwards here: everything that gets modded to 5 is probably well thought out and interesting, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the reverse is true.

    Most of the people here are walking on eggshells all the time

    I don't get that sense. In diary-land, it's completely not true; even in story threads, I haven't seen evidence of that. Sure, there are times when I don't post because I'm not sure that my facts are right --- but that's as it should be; I don't have anything to contribute to that discussion, so I sit back and listen and absorb what is placed there by those who do have something to contribute. Isn't that the way it's supposed to be?

    [ Parent ]

    Re: Trolls are bad... (4.50 / 2) (#65)
    by Jin Wicked on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 07:12:10 PM EST

    I agree that REAL trolls are bad, but the way the term is thrown around here it reminds me more of the Salem witch trials. And I see legitimate posts being labeled as trolls all the time...I'd rather get some noise and trolls and all the content than have some of the content lost (of what precious little there is) because people are so quick to yell "troll!" and mod something down. I don't even really care about the numbers, since I read low-rated posts all the time. It's the attitude that disturbs me.

    As for the "5, Insightful" on /., I've seen very opposing viewpoints moderated up all the time, but I see signifigantly less difference of opinions on kuro5hin. I want variety, I want to see both sides of the arguement. All too often that just isn't happening here.

    I agree with you completely that there is too much talking and not enough thinking and research going on. I don't want to talk about how I feel about everything, which seems to be alot of what goes on here. I want to read facts, points of view, and supporting arguements, and I want them to try as hard as they can to show me why they're right. I want to be able to think about it myself and make the decision whether it's right or not. Modding down for opposing viewpoints is NOT accomplishing that. Maybe you and I are asking for too much, though. Should we expect everyone on kuro5hin to be able to think for themselves and make objective decisions? Certainly, if we use the real world as a model for the kuro5hin population, we should not. [BLATANT HINT: I am insulting YOU, KURO5HIN USERS, so you will get off your butts and prove me wrong!] It was kind of implied here when I signed up for the account, though, that in general k5 users were the thinking part of the population; after all, they're posting here instead of watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer interview a politician about what kind of underwear he likes to wear on television.

    I still believe everyone here is paranoid of offending someone, though. It's especially present in the apologetic, cautious nature of the articles submitted to the queue. (Wouldn't want to offend any potential votes! Remind anyone of anything?) Look for it when you're voting more often, I think you'll begin to notice it, too.


    This post was probably not written by the real Jin Wicked. Please see user "butter pie" for Jin's actual posts.


    [ Parent ]
    I have the solution for variety... (4.00 / 2) (#85)
    by naasking on Wed Feb 14, 2001 at 11:24:15 AM EST

    I want variety, I want to see both sides of the arguement. All too often that just isn't happening here.

    You know what k5 needs? A bunch of official devil's advocates to take the opposite view of what the majority believes(or at least whatever view seems to be winning the debate/discussion). ;-) Not that they necessarily believe what they're defending, but someone needs to be the disagreeing party for a good discussion to take place.
    It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.
    ~ Joseph Joubert ~
    Hey, if you want alot of vehement, opininated discussion, then bring up the subject of gun control. But just don't write off all the ensuing discussion as flaming(which alot of people were doing the last time it came up; there was actually alot of good discussion). Like you mentioned in this article, alot of people just ignored the whole debate by writing off the editorial as a troll. A shame really; there were some great arguments on both sides.

    I guess your argument can be summed up in one statement:
    We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't.
    ~ Frank A. Clark ~


    [ Parent ]
    don't advocate "faking it" (3.00 / 1) (#90)
    by G Neric on Thu Feb 15, 2001 at 11:11:58 AM EST

    You know what k5 needs? A bunch of official devil's advocates to take the opposite view ...Not that they necessarily believe what they're defending

    Yikes! I totally disagree. You are describing "trolling". Discussing something with someone who does not believe what they are saying is unpleasant.

    K5 has plenty of opinion. What I think K5 needs is more "official" recognition or a weighting system or community that more fully values IQ and literacy. These things do get valued, but down-rating a clearly intelligent post should be punished really harshly.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't think so (none / 0) (#95)
    by naasking on Fri Feb 16, 2001 at 01:32:17 PM EST

    You are describing "trolling". Discussing something with someone who does not believe what they are saying is unpleasant.

    No, no. Trolling is totally different and arguing with a devil's advocate is not unpleasant in the least(though it can get frustrating because they contradict everything you say forcing you to think and establish a logically sound argument - arguably not a bad thing). I do it to my friends all the time(playing devil's advocate I mean). I'm not 'troling' them. :-)

    Besides, if someone is trolling(arguing for something they don't believe), but their points are sound and logical, does that negate their arguments? I don't count anything that contributes to the discussion as trolling, whatever the ulterior motives(be it karma whoring, killing time, etc.). If they have valid points, then it's not trolling. Unless the person is re-iterating the EXACT SAME POINTS that others have made, or unless they refuse to listen to reasonable oppopsing evidence and continue expounding their view, then it's not a troll.

    Of course, devil's advocates must listen to valid arguments and cannot/should not religiously expound views when they have been refuted. The devil's are there simply to challenge you. If you refute one of their views, they would simply have to move on to point out inconsistencies in your argument forcing you to tighten it till it's waterproof. IMO, that kind of debating is quite challenging.

    But that's just MHO.


    [ Parent ]
    wow, you're good at it. (none / 0) (#97)
    by G Neric on Tue Feb 20, 2001 at 11:07:33 PM EST

    You're just playing devil's advocate. What do you really think about what I said?

    [ Parent ]
    *bows* thank you (none / 0) (#98)
    by naasking on Wed Feb 21, 2001 at 03:01:37 PM EST

    You're just playing devil's advocate. What do you really think about what I said?

    hehehe... Maybe I am. ;-) Is the following what you mean?

    K5 has plenty of opinion.

    Yes it certainly does. :-) (Un)fortunately, alot of K5'ers share the same views, so instead of discussing major issues and challenging each other intellectually, they get in stupid little quabbles about who's right over what insignificant detail.

    What I think K5 needs is more "official" recognition or a weighting system or community that more fully values IQ and literacy.

    We could ALWAYS use more respect for intelligence and logic IMO('we' being people in general). I believe K5 already has a weighting system, but it's transparent to us(Mojo I believe?).

    These things do get valued, but down-rating a clearly intelligent post should be punished really harshly.

    Ahhh, now this is the real issue. I don't see how punishment would work though. How would you notice if you had been punished? Also, how are you to determine whether a post is very intelligent? A poster might make a very good point in your mind, but be completely off base according to someone else. The problem is that people are not really objective when evaluating subject matter.

    How about posts that stray from the topic at hand despite being well thought out? Should they be punished? If you can answer these questions with a flexible system, then e-mail rusty and let him know your idea. I will admit that there are some very clear cut cases of abuse, ie. modding someone down just because you didn't like what they said. But the issue still remains: how would you punish them?

    As to whether or not I was playing devil's advocate: To be honest, I do believe devil's advocates are good for discussion for the reasons I outlined above. It prevents opinion stagnation, where we're all comfortable in our little worlds because no one challenges our views. And I have been known to carry the flame... :-)


    [ Parent ]
    tall buildings (3.00 / 2) (#99)
    by G Neric on Fri Feb 23, 2001 at 09:21:57 AM EST

    I believe K5 already has a weighting system, but it's transparent to us(Mojo I believe?).

    Mojo is a popularity contest that correlates to, but does not does not weight for intelligence/articulateness/etc.

    Ahhh, now this is the real issue. I don't see how punishment would work though.

    once you showed yourself to be unable to dispassionately rate up intelligence that you didn't agree with, you'd be tainted and your future ratings would count less. Or, perhaps not at all in the quality half of a dual "quality/popularity" rating system.

    Also, how are you to determine whether a post is very intelligent? A poster might make a very good point in your mind, but be completely off base according to someone else. The problem is that people are not really objective when evaluating subject matter.

    A wise man once said, "you need to live in a really tall building in order to see clearly which are the other really tall buildings." One way to find intelligence is not to let the masses vote on it. There needs to be an elitist system. More attention could be paid to the correlation between the set of ratings you bestow with a reference set.

    How about posts that stray from the topic at hand despite being well thought out? Should they be punished?

    I want a system that rewards intelligence, not topicality. Offtopic would be a handy orthogonal rating, not a negative but useful for trimming a discussion down for salience.

    I will admit that there are some very clear cut cases of abuse, ie. modding someone down just because you didn't like what they said. But the issue still remains: how would you punish them?

    "the tribunal" takes away their rating privilege. Yes, elitism flies in the face of the organic community self-moderation that people who run these sorts of sites want. So, a way to merge the two ideas is to allow people to form their own "rating clubs" and publish their own group ratings. I could choose which ratings to pay attention to, and the clubs to choose which I belong to.

    something like that. I didn't want to spend a lot of time crafting a beautifully written reply so apologies for the stream of consciousness here. Also, to be polite let me say I can't guarantee I'll be back to respond again frequently. K5's been dropping off my own radar lately so... anyway...

    [ Parent ]

    But there's hardly any trolling going on here... (4.33 / 3) (#70)
    by Estanislao Martínez on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 08:38:41 PM EST

    The number of troll accusations going around all the time is pretty funny, since there is very little actual trolling in this site.

    There's a lot of troll paranoia, far more than actual trolling.

    --em
    [ Parent ]

    Saludos comrade! (3.00 / 1) (#77)
    by frenetik on Wed Feb 14, 2001 at 01:32:47 AM EST

    There's a lot of troll paranoia, far more than actual trolling.

    Which seems pretty normal to me, judging by the obsession with wanting to be different than the other side, as well as the number of /. old timers having come here to find a new shelter after the s/n ratio went to hell "there".

    The problem with kuro5hin is its obsession with itself.

    OT: I remember fondly of your old Che Guevarra style flames on /., please tell me you share at least some of the ideas you expressed in those posts. Otherwise I bow before the great Machiavelli reincarnated :)

    Friends are like plants. They need attention and they need to drink. -- SPYvSPY
    [ Parent ]

    hehe (2.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Estanislao Martínez on Wed Feb 14, 2001 at 04:20:30 AM EST

    I remember fondly of your old Che Guevarra style flames on /., please tell me you share at least some of the ideas you expressed in those posts. Otherwise I bow before the great Machiavelli reincarnated :)

    Yeah, I believed more or less in plenty of what I wrote back then. The "trolling" bit was more in the delivery-- the horribly arrogant, uncompassionate persona bent on rhetorically crushing the opposition. I'm nice in real life.

    --em
    [ Parent ]

    he's just a troll (1.00 / 1) (#91)
    by JohnHopfrog on Thu Feb 15, 2001 at 11:54:52 AM EST

    Slashdot (Yes, I said the "S" word) is not a bad site at all.
    Kuro5hin is so Kuro5hirn, it makes me smile once in a while.

    -John.

    {You don't have to understand everything}

    [ Parent ]
    Practice what you preach (4.18 / 11) (#54)
    by itsbruce on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 05:28:19 PM EST

    How much is this a plea for balance, how much your personal vision of how you want kuro5hin to be?

    let the voting process work

    If you have so much confidence in the voting process, then let people vote and stop telling them how they should vote.

    I think you're being way too precious about all this and extremely oversensitive about the editorial comments. The thing about editorial comments is that they vanish once a consensus (post or dump) has been reached. They contribute to that consensus and provide a place for people to express their opinions without damping the discussion itself. There was a point, when stories were spending ages in the purgatory of the queue, when editorial comments could descend into flame-fests. Now that the average queue time has gone back to it's earlier short span, this is not an issue. I remember when editorial comments were mostly left unrated and I personally lament the trend to punish those who make them.


    --

    It is impolite to tell a man who is carrying you on his shoulders that his head smells.
    oh, come on. (2.75 / 4) (#60)
    by regeya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 06:51:46 PM EST

    Bruce, I gotta say, you're great for a laugh.

    If you have so much confidence in the voting process, then let people vote and stop telling them how they should vote.

    Nice. You use a sentence that's bound to raise tempers, yet conveniently ignore the fact that I'm not telling anyone how to vote. (Nice troll, BTW.) No, I'm merely asking that others evaluate what they consider to be the criteria for voting a story up, down, or voting that they don't care. You might think it's just a simple matter of semantics, but the difference is important. I'm trying to influence people to be a bit more mature about their choices on what they're going to vote up or down. Not automatically voting stories down because it's MLP, not vote an Anne Marie story down before finding the logic flaw, not because people want the front page to stay static for a week, or because it's Thursday, but based on individual stories' merits and the likes, dislikes, and apathy of the reader based on the content of a story.

    There was a point, when stories were spending ages in the purgatory of the queue, when editorial comments could descend into flame-fests. Now that the average queue time has gone back to it's earlier short span, this is not an issue.

    Again, not entirely on track with what I was saying. Did you happen to see the latest Signal 11 submission? People claiming they'd voted the story down for this bizarre reason, that they felt that Signal 11 was performing some sort of odd experiment, or something along those lines, and that's what caused them to vote the story down. Remove the bit about Signal 11 may be performing some sort of experiment on kuro5hin'ers, and you get, you guessed it: I voted this story down because Signal 11 wrote it.


    [ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
    [ Parent ]

    Do you set out to insult? (3.00 / 2) (#64)
    by itsbruce on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 07:08:03 PM EST

    Or is it just so inconcievable to you that someone might sincerely disagree with you that the condescension comes naturally?

    Bruce, I gotta say, you're great for a laugh....(Nice troll, BTW.)

    I was serious. Pardon me for wasting my breath.


    --

    It is impolite to tell a man who is carrying you on his shoulders that his head smells.
    [ Parent ]
    nope! (1.50 / 2) (#68)
    by regeya on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 07:26:30 PM EST

    Or is it just so inconcievable to you that someone might sincerely disagree with you that the condescension comes naturally?
    Sheesh...no, it's not inconceivable. I just doubt your sincerity. You insult me by making false accusations, I insult you back. Is it so inconceivable that I might have been genuinely offended by your gross misinterpretation?

    [ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
    [ Parent ]

    Next we're going to cure cancer and poverty! -NOT (4.00 / 14) (#59)
    by jet_silver on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 06:46:36 PM EST

    If I had to occupy a room with five randomly selected posters on this subject I would probably consider it a season in hell. Do people -really- take themselves so seriously? For Christ's sake, these boards are supposed to be fun. Remember that? Play. Funny words or statements. Absurd humor. Instead, people worry about points - completely arbitrary constructs - as though getting enough of them wins you a cotton-candy goat, and they argue seriously about who gets what points and how points are unfair.

    Well - fuck points. If you don't like reading what I have to say, mod me down. I don't care. If you want to read all the highest rated posts only, you can do it with the nicely-implemented selectors. When the subject is technical I do that because I'm in the bottom quntile of coding competence and the average is meaningful. When it isn't, do I trust the average moderator to select what to read? Hell, no. And who got what points has, as far as I've seen, only very little relevance to the sense contained in a given post. Take out a few of the trolls, and what's left is pretty interesting.

    As soon as this board is no more fun, it'll shrivel up anyway, no matter who has how many points.
    "What they really fear is machine-gunning politicians becoming a popular sport, like skate-boarding." -Nicolas Freeling

    Heh (none / 0) (#83)
    by Frigorific on Wed Feb 14, 2001 at 08:50:32 AM EST

    Aw, you're just doing that to get rated high... ;)
    Who is John Galt? Rather, who is Vasilios Hoffman?
    [ Parent ]
    My views on the k5 paradigm - it's dynamic, stupid (3.75 / 8) (#69)
    by skim123 on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 08:21:42 PM EST

    Ok, so the subject line is my vain little attempt at humor...

    But in all seriousness, I think mission statements for a site like k5 are silly. Let me first take a step back and say that this is Rusty's site, of course, and he can do whatever the hell he wants to do... BUT if he wants to create a site where interesting folks come to discuss and interesting folks get to choose what, specifically, is discussed, any sort of mission statement or guidelines or "this is what k5 is," IMHO, is extraneous. k5 is what those interesting people make it. k5 is alive and ever changing and adapting to its users.

    If a bunch of new folks come along and they want to talk about alien abductions, then k5 will move into an alien abduction discussion site. Not my cup of tea, and I'd move on, but k5 would continue on and live. I guess what I am trying to say is people should just vote for what interests them, talk about what interests them, and have a good time. Don't stress over what you should vote up, or discuss (or what others tell you that you should). Don't tell others, "Such a post violates what k5 is." That would be like going up to a cat that is, say, using a simple tool somehow to do something and saying, "Hey, you're a cat, you're not suppose to be doing that." It's evolving/adapting, and so should k5. (Sorry for that terrible analogy...)

    To summarize: just let k5 find its own course. And to help it find its own course, write about what interests you. Post stories that you find neat. Vote up or down whatever stories you like or dislike (respectively, preferrably). Don't tell others what k5 is about - it's about what the sum of what each member decides what k5 is about. (Try saying that five times fast.) Just have fun with it and let's all enjoy watching k5 grow/evolve/adapt/morph as new folks drop in and others drop out...

    Money is in some respects like fire; it is a very excellent servant but a terrible master.
    PT Barnum


    kuro_s_hin - so there! (3.84 / 13) (#71)
    by eLuddite on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 08:54:04 PM EST

    The biggest problem with K5 is that it never seems to tire of talking about itself.

    ---
    God hates human rights.

    But... (2.50 / 2) (#72)
    by qslack on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 10:16:14 PM EST

    Yes, but when 'itself' == 15,000 people, it's fine. The US has hundreds of Gov PR people, too...guess they talk about the US all the time...

    [ Parent ]
    You pay peanuts, you get monkeys (1.11 / 17) (#82)
    by AndrewH on Wed Feb 14, 2001 at 07:23:25 AM EST

    The K5 web designer prefers to pitch the site formatting at idiots. Do you really expect that sort of attitude not to percolate through to the comments?


    John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, John Hinckley Jr — where are you now that we need you?
    Obviously.. (4.33 / 3) (#88)
    by rusty on Wed Feb 14, 2001 at 03:36:47 PM EST

    Obviously, it's started already.

    ____
    Not the real rusty
    [ Parent ]
    Don't be sad! (2.50 / 2) (#93)
    by enani on Fri Feb 16, 2001 at 01:55:13 AM EST

    Hi Mr. Rusty! Please don't be sad because of one stupid troll! Trolls can be nice to have around too! Well, the nice trolls, anyway! Your nice website does a lot to give a lot of people things to talk about, and that can make them nice and happy! And then there's other sites based on your code which can help other people be happy too! It'd be really nice if people would just be friends so that everyone can be happy, but it's too bad that they are not! But they should be friends! I can even be friends with my masu-baka poopyhead brother sometimes, so I'm sure that any two people can be friends as soon as they realize that they're not enemies!

    Please be friends with AndrewH! Even though he seems like a meany poopyhead! If he hurts you, just say 'Itai!' and go on with life! Life's too important and short to spend it fighting! Even a feared space-pirate like Ryo-Ohki can be friends with everyone!
    --=* Moshi-moshi! *=--
    [ Parent ]

    kawaii!! (3.00 / 1) (#94)
    by rusty on Fri Feb 16, 2001 at 03:50:05 AM EST

    I wish I had a tamagotchi that talked like you when I pressed a button. That would never fail to cheer me up.

    ____
    Not the real rusty
    [ Parent ]
    What I think! (3.00 / 1) (#92)
    by enani on Thu Feb 15, 2001 at 06:51:03 PM EST

    I think that Kuro5hin is doing just fine! Things just change over time, and we need to respect that! However, that doesn't mean that the old focus is no longer there, it just isn't so concentrated either! We just need to understand that different people have different desires for what goes into this site, and not complain when someone posts something they don't like to see! We also need to be more happy, because it is too easy for people to get mad at each other! So we just need to remember that we're all friends here! Please don't be mad at each other! I hate to see friends mad at each other!
    --=* Moshi-moshi! *=--
    Why not anonymous? (none / 0) (#100)
    by Gutboy Barrelhouse on Sat Apr 21, 2001 at 09:27:40 PM EST

    This has probably been asked and answered before, but if so I'm not sure where to find the discussion.
    Try to read all new submissions in an objective manner. Try to not evaluate a story based on who wrote the story, or whether or not you agree with the opinion expressed, but on how well it's written and how well-researched it seems to be.
    Why aren't submissions anonymous until posted?

    Kuro5hin: Straying From the Goal? | 100 comments (92 topical, 8 editorial, 0 hidden)
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