Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
Troll Index

By spacejack in Meta
Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 01:32:51 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

I just got my trusted user status back. Again. Anyways, I don't really care so much about being or not being a trusted user. But I do miss the ability to look up zeroed comments.


It's not that I don't think the comments should be hidden, I do. And a lot of them aren't worth looking at. However, I find that by browsing the zeros, you can often see where an argument went ballistic. This usually points out the endpoint, or spawning point of a heated discussion about some interesting and highly flammable topic. So I use it as a "heated discussion" index. Unfortunately whenever I lose trusted status, I lose this index. Maybe we could let untrusted users access this feature? Maybe call it the Troll Index?

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Poll
Let's call it:
o Troll Index 26%
o Going Ballistic 14%
o trhurler Thread Index 59%

Votes: 49
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Also by spacejack


Display: Sort:
Troll Index | 34 comments (32 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)
Censoring vs Moderation (3.62 / 16) (#2)
by tnt on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 03:35:28 AM EST

Moderation helps us seperate the signal from the noise. Which is an argument for moderation. However, sometimes moderation can mean cencorship. And currently, that is the case with Kuro5hin. (Some comments can become hidden, and thus censored.)

However it doesn't have to be that way. We can have moderation, and still NOT censor. Giving everyone the option of seeing the hidden comments (if they wanted to) (instead of just the trusted users) would make that so.

So I think that allowing everyone, not just the trusted users, the option to see hidden comments is a good idea. (Note, this does not mean everyone should be able to rate the hidden comments. Nor does it mean that the hidden comments should show up by default [... the user would need to request them to be displayed].)



--
     Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
__________________________________________________
  Kuro5hin user #279

Was the link really necessary? (3.55 / 9) (#3)
by kwsNI on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 04:11:53 AM EST

I mean, we're reading you comment on K5. I think anyone that's gotten this far can find the front page.

kwsNI
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. -Jack Handy
[ Parent ]
Homepage? (1.66 / 3) (#11)
by Devil Ducky on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 10:35:19 AM EST

There's a hompepage? Give me the link so I can see it please.

I don't know how I got here, I was just reading a comment on my favorite site and I ended up here... :)

Devil Ducky

Immune to the Forces of Duct Tape
Day trading at it's Funnest
[ Parent ]
I got the Oscar :-) (3.33 / 3) (#18)
by tnt on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 04:52:19 PM EST

I guess you were unaware that Rusty, the creator of Kuro5hin, awarded me the Oscar for the most links in a single comment.

(I just think that adding links is part of good writing.)



--
     Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
__________________________________________________
  Kuro5hin user #279

[ Parent ]
But you forgot to link... (2.00 / 2) (#28)
by pin0cchio on Sat Jun 23, 2001 at 03:19:12 PM EST

I just think that adding links is part of good writing.

You forgot to link this: adding links is part of good writing.


lj65
[ Parent ]
both censorship, and protection. (3.66 / 3) (#22)
by coffee17 on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 07:47:41 PM EST

Yes, it is censorship if it makes it so that some poeple will never see the comment. However, as has been pointed out, this protects the system from parsites. I finally got around to looking at some of the comments which were zeroed out. I saw only one which was zeroed which I couldn't see any reason for (it was short, but it offered some information; heck, I'd even replied to it before it was zeroed. But it was only zeroed by one person, so I made it visible again. I also saw some which while I could see some people's reason for zeroing them, I didn't think it should be zeroed and helped vote it up (however, with a few even 5's wouldn't help). But my point of saying that I could see why some people would zero it meaning essentially that I couldn't give a shit if it was visible or not, but think that visible should be the default. Also, as has been mentioned there really are not that many zero's, Heck, you could make a pro-slashdot post, and if it actually had content and wasn't "5la5hd0t Rul3ZZZ, you all can suck my dick" it wouldn't likely be made zero... However, I think that there might be too many people who can give a zero score (heck, I don't think that I've demonstrated ratings and longetivity enough that I'd want me to be able to zero scores yet.

Perhaps an alternate thing is take the current score which lets one rate to zero and make that the threshold to see zero comments (thus you can fight them if you disagree), and raise the threshold for actually being able to give a zero.

Lastly, I'm kinda sad to see this article, as it might make more people aware of zero's and make them more likely to use it. As I said, I saw some examples which I thought didn't warrant censoring. People should remember that a 1 is a really stupid comment, a 0 is something with no redeeming value that you want to censor. Hopefully that won't raise the occurance of zeros ;)

-coffee


[ Parent ]

It is in the database anyways (2.25 / 4) (#24)
by tnt on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 10:01:50 PM EST

The way that I saw it, was that, the comments -- the hidden comments -- are in the database anyways (regardless of their score), so why not give everyone the option to see them.

Sure hidding them protects the general Kuro5hin readers from other's abuse, however, I was not saying that they should be shown by default. My thought was that if someone really wanted to see them (regardless if they were trusted or not) then they should be able to (since the hidden comments are in the database anyways).



--
     Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
__________________________________________________
  Kuro5hin user #279

[ Parent ]
Just because it's in the database doesn't mean (4.33 / 3) (#27)
by pin0cchio on Sat Jun 23, 2001 at 03:12:04 PM EST

The way that I saw it, was that, the comments -- the hidden comments -- are in the database anyways (regardless of their score), so why not give everyone the option to see them.

The way that I saw it, was that, the passwords -- the secret passwords -- are in the database anyways (regardless of privacy preferences), so why not give everyone the option to see them.

Just because "it's in the database" doesn't mean that outsiders can be trusted with the information.


lj65
[ Parent ]
Excellent idea. (4.00 / 8) (#4)
by pento on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 06:44:24 AM EST

I'm a long time lurker, so the 0-score comments are never viewable by me.

I'll often be reading an argument that continues back and forth until it's suddenly cut off. It's fairly obvious that the rest has been 0-modded, but I can't read it. I can quite imagine that a lot of it, as mentioned in the article, is crap. But some of it would be interesting, and it's that which I'd like to be able to see.

This of course has it's drawbacks. It means that trolls will be getting more attention, but this is counter-balanced by the fact that, if you didn't like seeing the trolls, you could ignore them, or turn it off.

I like to think that I'm capable of deciding what I want to read, and what I don't.

Here's a freebie (4.71 / 7) (#5)
by psctsh on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 08:21:04 AM EST

Trust me when I say that you're not missing much. Here's an example of one I had to mod down, due to the fact that it simply represents a breakdown in the will to argue (I'm sure you'll get my point):

You are a bitch. I don't feel compelled to attack your position, because you don't have one. You couldn't put your brain in gear long enough to form one. You talk about the dangers of political divisions, then post inflamatory crap likely to foster them? Go suck a dick.

Now multiply this by 50, and you get the idea what the hidden comments page is like (of course, they all aren't this interesting--a lot of the time they're 1-2 words saying as much). Usually if a comment was modded down unfairly, someone else'll mod it up to a ~1 or ~2, so you'll see it (the stuff that stays usually has no point, and is highly inflammatory).

If they did allow the hidden comments to be viewed by untrusted users, it would be more of an "obvious flaimbait" index than a "troll index." Most trolls (good and bad) don't get zero'd, so don't hold your breath waiting around.

[ Parent ]
In that case... (3.50 / 2) (#6)
by pento on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 08:47:21 AM EST

I guess I'm not in a huge hurry to read all the 0-comments. :)

Thanks for showing me, I'll go back to letting those who know better than I make the comments. ;)

[ Parent ]
Sudden Stops (4.80 / 5) (#12)
by Devil Ducky on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 10:47:37 AM EST

When one of those conversations you were reading suddenly stopped, it wasn't because of moderation, more likely the participants just quit responding.

Someone getting modded to 0 and staying there does not happen very often and the comment would have to be quite inflammatory. As an example of the regularity of the moderation, the timestamps of the last few 0 comments:
01: 06/20/2001 05:48:09 AM EST
02: 06/19/2001 01:34:31 PM EST
03: 06/13/2001 02:32:34 AM EST
04: 06/12/2001 05:40:25 PM EST
05: 06/11/2001 02:28:25 PM EST
06: 06/08/2001 09:53:27 AM EST
07: 06/05/2001 12:20:08 PM EST
08: 05/28/2001 03:54:58 PM EST
09: 05/26/2001 03:07:37 AM EST
10: 05/25/2001 04:35:09 PM EST

There you go, the last 10 comments to be added to the hidden comments pile, spanning almost a whole month; I don't know why anyone would want to read them except to make sure noone was put there unfairly and they weren't.

Devil Ducky

Immune to the Forces of Duct Tape
Day trading at it's Funnest
[ Parent ]
There's ballistic, then there's thermo-nuclear (4.00 / 4) (#7)
by leviathan on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 09:01:29 AM EST

The zeroing of comments aren't used when an argument gets heated. They happen to spam, and they happen to abusive comments. If someone *is* going to get abusive enough to get zeroed out it's obvious from way back.

It's true that people do seem to be getting more twitchy now though, and zeroing stuff that they wouldn't have a few months back. Whether that's permanent or just a blip I don't know, but in general only stuff that has no discussion value whatsoever gets hidden.

I only ever view the hidden comments to see if any are worth rating up. As for telling me what topics generate abuse, there are far more effective methods that the hidden comments list.

--
I wish everyone was peaceful. Then I could take over the planet with a butter knife.
- Dogbert

Yeah but... (2.50 / 2) (#10)
by Xeriar on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 09:53:58 AM EST

We can also go through and rate them properly. Some deserve their zeros (gisano...)

----
When I'm feeling blue, I start breathing again.
[ Parent ]
correcting abuse is fortunately easy (none / 0) (#32)
by Delirium on Fri Jun 29, 2001 at 10:18:48 PM EST

It's true that people do seem to be getting more twitchy now though, and zeroing stuff that they wouldn't have a few months back. Whether that's permanent or just a blip I don't know, but in general only stuff that has no discussion value whatsoever gets hidden.

This is partly because of the mathematics of the rating system - I do see quite a bit of abuse of the "0" rating for comments that should not be hidden, but fortunately it's rather easy to undo. If even a very few people go through the hidden comments and rate up ones they think shouldn't have been hidden, it very quickly corrects abuse. It only takes one "5" rating to balance out four "0" ratings and keep the comment at least at "1". So as long as even three or four people do this regularly, it keeps comments that shouldn't be hidden unhidden, barring some massive group of 20+ zero-rating abusers.

[ Parent ]

changing moderation viewing (3.16 / 6) (#8)
by garlic on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 09:35:59 AM EST

While you're at it, why not make it possible to set your bottom level comments to see? whether that be 0, 1, 2, or whatever.

HUSI challenge: post 4 troll diaries on husi without being outed as a Kuron, or having the diaries deleted or moved by admins.

It's good to have a cause. (1.33 / 3) (#19)
by psctsh on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 05:20:29 PM EST

Isn't it?

[ Parent ]
he brought it up! (1.40 / 5) (#20)
by garlic on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 06:16:41 PM EST

I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise.

HUSI challenge: post 4 troll diaries on husi without being outed as a Kuron, or having the diaries deleted or moved by admins.
[ Parent ]

Slashdot Style (3.16 / 6) (#9)
by reshippie on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 09:41:47 AM EST

The default setting on /. is to hide all 0 and -1 comments, though users can choose to set it anywhere they want (-1 - 5).

I wonder how hard that would be to implement here. Make the default setting at 1, but allow everyone, or at least registered users, to browse at 0 if they so wish.

Only Trusted Users can rate at 0, but I don't see why they should be the only ones that can view at 0.

Those who don't know me, probably shouldn't trust me. Those who do DEFINITELY shouldn't trust me. :-)

Zero ratings (3.00 / 2) (#29)
by J'raxis on Sat Jun 23, 2001 at 10:55:08 PM EST

Only Trusted Users can rate at 0, but I don't see why they should be the only ones that can view at 0.
This is the biggest problem I would say. Once a single trusted user rates a comment to zero, it has to be found by another trusted user to be "saved," if the comment didn't warrant the zero rating.

Maybe it shouldn't go invisible until at least x trusted users have agreed that it warrants a zero rating. That way the current system of disappearing the noise would be preserved, but it couldn't be abused (momentarily) by a single trusted user.

-- The Raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]
[ Parent ]

Er... (2.50 / 2) (#30)
by /dev/niall on Mon Jun 25, 2001 at 02:04:37 PM EST

That's why they're called "trusted users".
--
"compared to the other apes, my genitals are gigantic" -- TheophileEscargot
[ Parent ]
Not a problem (3.20 / 5) (#31)
by Ludwig on Fri Jun 29, 2001 at 07:38:41 AM EST

Trusted users already see zero-rated comments in the original threads. They don't have to specifically go to "Review Hidden Comments" to rate them.

[ Parent ]
They're supposed to be invisible (4.41 / 12) (#13)
by jmj on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 10:57:58 AM EST

Isn't the rating to 0 supposed to make the comments invisible ? This way someone can write as many useless messages as they want, they won't get the satisfaction of many people seeing their "work".

A special zero index page would only encourage people to write more nonsense, since they now have a quick link to fame.

There are enough places on the net and in the real world where you can see people making asses of themselves...



Easy (3.90 / 10) (#15)
by shoeboy on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 11:37:38 AM EST

Get a secondary account. Post ten times to a hidden sid. Moderate all 10 posts to 5 with your primary account. Congratulations, now you have trusted user status on your secondary account.

Now that you've got a trusted user account, use it to create your own website that mirrors the "view hidden comments" page on k5.

Simple, no? There's a similar site for slashdot.

--Shoeboy
No more trolls!

Well (2.33 / 3) (#17)
by spacejack on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 04:41:20 PM EST

it's too bad this seems like the only solution. I don't like the idea of multiple accounts, but if you can't beat em...

[ Parent ]
Nothing wrong with multiple accounts (2.66 / 3) (#21)
by shoeboy on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 06:17:55 PM EST

As long as you aren't using them to vote multiple times on stories, agree with your own comments, flame without fear of damaging your rep or moderate yourself up. You know, the usual things people do with duplicate accounts.

--Shoeboy
No more trolls!
[ Parent ]
I was curious (1.66 / 6) (#23)
by Wah on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 10:00:55 PM EST

about how your crap flames got posted. Maybe I should stoop too.

As long as you aren't using them to vote multiple times on stories

Haha, of course, we wouldn't expect someone who was already cheating to cheat in the only useful way. What a joke.
--
Some things, bandwidth can't buy. For everything else, there's Real Life | SSP
[ Parent ]

I'm hurt (1.90 / 10) (#25)
by shoeboy on Fri Jun 22, 2001 at 02:22:50 AM EST

The 3 articles in my current series got voted up fairly as far as I know. If there was anything underhanded, I haven't heard about it.

Also, nothing in any of my articles constituted flamage. So blow it out your ass you dimwitted fuck. (My comments have been know to harbor the occasional flame.

--Shoeboy
No more trolls!
[ Parent ]
Mmm-hmm (1.57 / 14) (#26)
by Wah on Fri Jun 22, 2001 at 02:40:12 AM EST

So blow it out your ass you dimwitted fuck.

Open your mouth wide and don't forget to wipe your chin and I just might oblige.

Question: How much do you get paid for each article you get published? Or is it a salaried position?
--
Some things, bandwidth can't buy. For everything else, there's Real Life | SSP
[ Parent ]

Why showing hidden comments is wrong (4.58 / 24) (#16)
by Eloquence on Thu Jun 21, 2001 at 01:51:10 PM EST

It has been suggested in this thread to allow anyone to see <1 comments if they wish so. While this may at first seem like a good idea, it is the best way to kill K5. You just have to look at Slashdot to see why. At the 0 and -1 threshold, a subculture of idiots has developed, posting goatse.cx links, insulting other users, and trolling among themselves. This subculture could only develop because idiots can see (and respond to) other idiots' comments, and idiots who are voted down can still see whether their idiotic posts have caused any responses.

The K5 moderation system is superior because it kills the motivation to continue posting noise. You can't see what you've posted (or the replies to it), other non-trusted users can't respond to what you've posted, and your only hope is that your post is moderated back up to become visible again. The effect is that various trolls and clowns of the past have become gradually more benign and actually started posting non-noise comments.

If you allow anyone to see and/or respond to hidden comments, you will create the same subculture that Slashdot has. The problem is that this subculture will not simply remain invisible; it will interact with the "normal" part of the K5 population, either because these will look up responses in a thread that has crossed the threshold, or because users who nearly exclusively post noise and would otherwise go away feel at home and start posting at K5 regularly, including some non-rated/non-hidden, but low-quality comments.

The concept of trusted users is really simple. If you want other people to check the hidden comments, moderate their posts up. If you want yourself to check the hidden comments, post high quality material -or- cheat. But don't "fix" it if it ain't broken, because that would effectively break the moderation system of K5 as a result.
--
Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
spread the word!

Suggestion: Show 0s but forbid replying? (none / 0) (#33)
by ToastyKen on Wed Jul 11, 2001 at 03:07:40 AM EST

I found this discussion fascinating, because it didn't occur to me that hiding 0'd comments nullifies this subculture. Makes total sense to me.

Still, the censorship issue bugs me.. Maybe we can do something like allow seeing 0'd comments but disallowing replying to them? That way, no one can reply to an obvious troll or whatnot..

Of course, this probably won't work because you can always reply with sibling-posts rather than child-posts.. Still, I thought I'd toss the idea out there in case it inspires someone to think of something better than what we have now. :)

As it is, I think the current system is reasonable, since the K5 community is sufficiently large that I'm not really afraid of any deliberate censorship succeeding, but I can see room for improvement.

[ Parent ]

I would argue... (none / 0) (#34)
by Slobodan Milosevic on Wed Oct 31, 2001 at 11:52:06 PM EST

That you are only partly right. If Slashdot had better grammar in it's stories, was less buggy, researched the stories that got posted, repeated a fraction of a little less often, etc.. We'd see a lesser group of pissed off users on /.

---
"Where else do you have deposed Eastern European dictators commenting on the politics of open source? Nowhere, that's where."
--grouse on why he loves kuro5hin.org
[ Parent ]

Troll Index | 34 comments (32 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!