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Diaries - bowling for mojo?

By crayz in Meta
Mon Jan 21, 2002 at 08:05:55 AM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)

OK, very simply I think something needs to be done about the diaries. I really ignored them for a while when they first appeared, but after I "took my first hit" I've come to really enjoy them as a unique and useful part of the site....But - Diaries, and the replies to them, are almost invariably very personal things. I think because of this, and because people like it when they get responses to their diaries, essentially everu post submitted to a diary winds up with a score of 5. Given that there is a benefit as a user in getting highly rated comments, I really think it is unfair to treat diary comments the same as comments to a story.

I'm not really sure what the solution to this should be, but I think something needs to be done to separate the two types of comments. I guess the simplest way to do this would be to have a "diary mojo" and a "story mojo." Another solution could be to simply turn off comment rating in the diaries, as I think it is more like an informal chat, and giving a score to what people say seems awkward. On somewhat of a side note, I think at the very least people need to be able to make whatever comments they want to their own diary without being rated. Even if the comment is a complete troll, it seems only fair that if the actual diary is a free-for-all for the owner, the comments in it should be also.


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Diaries should...
o be left unchanged 45%
o have mojo separate from stories 15%
o have no comment ratings at all 26%
o some other idea(which I will post) 0%
o some other idea(which I won't post because I'm a lazy piece of shit) 12%

Votes: 93
Results | Other Polls

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o Also by crayz

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Diaries - bowling for mojo? | 35 comments (29 topical, 6 editorial, 0 hidden)
What is the purpose of mojo? (4.28 / 7) (#2)
by greenrd on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 01:08:09 PM EST

The purpose of mojo AFAIK is to determine who gets to be a trusted user, and it does this by cutting out e.g. trolls and crapflooders and people who haven't used k5 for long. So does it really matter that diary comments are treated the same as other comments? No.

"Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes

OK well here's the point (4.33 / 3) (#6)
by crayz on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 01:19:10 PM EST

If I post crap to the stories(as long as I don't get *really* labeled as a troll), and then just post little one-liner "me-too" types of diary comments, I could get a bunch of 1s and 2s in the stories and then a whole boatload of 5s in the diaries, and stay a trusted user.

Is the system supposed to work like that?

[ Parent ]
It doesn't matter! (4.87 / 8) (#10)
by theantix on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 01:46:47 PM EST

If you post crap to the stories, your posts get rated down. If you post crap to the diaries, you get rated down. If you post awesome material to the stories, you get rated up. If you post decent stuff to the diaries (pretty much everything). So it's unbalanced -- who cares? As a trusted user, you have no benefits beyond being able to see and rate comments to 0. Rusty made a good decision to hide mojo, which means that it's not the game that the folks have over at slashdot. Ratings do not matter. If a person abuses the comment rating system they will not get rated up in either place. Please stop your meta complaining... the system is not broken.

You sir, are worse than Hitler!
[ Parent ]
I agree (4.75 / 4) (#14)
by davidr on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 02:05:50 PM EST

I have pretty much the same opinion. Hiding the mojo was really a good idea, noone can see that he needs only two more 5-ratings and then he'll be a trusted user and therefore noone will post 2 nice comments just to become one.
And what about this seperate mojo thing? Someone who never posts in a story but is always nice in his diary-posts/replies should also have the chance to become a trusted user because he is being trusted in.

[ Parent ]
Yes, pretty much (4.87 / 8) (#11)
by rusty on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 01:50:11 PM EST

The system is heavily weighted toward the positive. I think that's more encouraging and constructive than focusing on the negative. You have to be pretty much universally hated to really suffer mojo consequences, and that's the way it's supposed to be.

Also remember that everyone is watching for abuse. The ratings are a "first line" that does a pretty good job. But, as everyone knows, there are ways around it. When people do exploit those to the detriment of the community, we deal with them manually. Having ratings and all the rest just cuts down that number to something manageable.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Uh, so what? (4.77 / 9) (#12)
by TheophileEscargot on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 01:51:09 PM EST

So you do this. You are a trusted user. You can see hidden comments. How is this a problem?

Also, I don't think trusted user status is supposed to be some "elite" thing for a minority of superheroes. If you're capable of getting on well enough with the diary regulars to get 5's, you can't be a really bad crapflooder.
Support the nascent Mad Open Science movement... when we talk about "hundreds of eyeballs," we really mean it. Lagged2Death
[ Parent ]

Comments should be rated in diaries. (4.37 / 8) (#3)
by Carnage4Life on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 01:10:27 PM EST

I've seen reasons for both high and low ratings in diaries since I got to K5.
  1. HIGH RATINGS: A lot of diaries are requests for advice or suggestions and instead of people posting various "me too" posts to show which they think the better suggestion is they can just rate them.

  2. LOW RATINGS: Some users think their only purpose here is to abuse other users and in this case they should suffer the consequences for their actions mojo wise and untrusted user wise instead of allowing the iaries to become a haven of the kind of garbage one typically sees on Slashdot browsing at -1.

Good idea (3.00 / 7) (#5)
by valarauko on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 01:18:47 PM EST

Posts about how Kuro5hin works (and doesn't) are pretty important to the site's well-being -- I think this one deserves some discussion.

For my part, I think Crayz's idea of turning off the ratings for diary comments is a good one. A personal dialog is different from a public discussion -- rating diary comments is like censoring private conversations vs. censoring radio.

Bullshit. (4.80 / 5) (#9)
by kwsNI on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 01:42:50 PM EST

A personal dialog is different from a public discussion -- rating diary comments is like censoring private conversations vs. censoring radio.
Both diaries and stories are carried on the same medium, are available to the same people and are of no less importance than the stuff that gets posted to the queue. So maybe to make your analogy more appropriate, why not say that censoring public radio is ok while not censoring corporate stations?

The only difference between diaries and the story queue is that there is an editorial process before a story makes it out of the queue. So if diairies don't get rated, then we shouldn't rate any comments written during the time a story is in the queue.

And before you tell me that there is a larger general interest in the stories than in the diaries, try reading my diary. I have quite a few diaries that have more comments than many of the section stories. And if you can answer that, tell me why we should have any comment ratings on theantix's Front Page story on diaries? It's basically a glorified diary about the things going on in K5 readers' lives.


I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. -Jack Handy
[ Parent ]

Re:Idea (4.66 / 3) (#21)
by truth versus death on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 02:39:10 PM EST

Radio should not be censored. It is a Constitutional violation (at least here in the U.S.) which has been going on for far too long.

As to the comparison between rating and censorship -- the only censoring possible is via the 0 rating, which only trusted users can bestow. Only when a zero is given is rating anything like censorship. At all other times, there is no censorial flavor whatsoever.

Your reasoning would seem to indicate you would like 0 ratings removed from diaries, not ratings in general.

"any erection implies consent"-fae
[ Trim your Bush ]
[ Parent ]
Man, have you come a long way since *censored* (5.00 / 3) (#22)
by kwsNI on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 02:52:54 PM EST

I think what he is trying to drive at is that diaries encourage people to rate 5's, in turn creating more trusted users and giving more people "censorship" power. Back in reality though, there is really nothing wrong with having "too many" trusted users. It's a community site. The more trusted users, the more community has control. Since it takes a 5/6 majority of TUs to censor a comment (5-0's to drop a comment with 1-5 vote below a 1 average), it makes it hard for a trusted user to truly abuse that power. If you can really get 5/6 of any group of people here on K5 to agree on something, it's probably deserved. Honestly, I think sometimes the system fails to hide stuff that should be hidden, but I've never been unable to unhide something that I didn't think was undeserving of a 0.

I think that trusted user status is something that needs to be earned, but I don't see that it has to be something that is really hard to obtain. As long as the people who have trusted status have demonstrated a little responisbility in their posts, they don't have to be the utmost "best" of K5. As long as they're not irresponsibly rating 0's or receiving 0's and using their TU status to find who is rating them down, their is no problem with trusted users.

I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. -Jack Handy
[ Parent ]

No, no (4.16 / 6) (#7)
by J'raxis on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 01:33:39 PM EST

Kuro5hin’s rating system — specifically the 0-rating which hides comments to all except those who have acheived good standing — is what keeps the S:N ratio good here. If you can’t rate comments in the diaries, crapflooder types will just look for popular diaries and crapflood there.

— The Raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]

Don't think this change is necessary (4.28 / 7) (#8)
by TheophileEscargot on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 01:42:23 PM EST

  • Simpler is better as far as moderation schemes go. Why make things more complicated?
  • The main point of comment moderation I see is to rank them when there are large numbers. The number of comments in the diaries is usually too small for this to matter.
  • If you're a troll who wants mojo, surely you just create two accounts and spend 10 minutes rating every comment a 5? I can't see this hypothetical troll spending hours in the diary section just to achieve the same thing.

Support the nascent Mad Open Science movement... when we talk about "hundreds of eyeballs," we really mean it. Lagged2Death
Another suggestion about the diaries. (4.16 / 6) (#13)
by demi on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 01:52:43 PM EST

Could the font size be reduced to allow more entries on the FP? When the site is slow, I don't always want to click to browse the older entries (although 'old' in this case may only be a few hours). If you switched to the same font that is used for the author's name, and just make part of it in italics (is there any way to make an Arial or Tahoma version of the 'code' or 'tt' text?):

My tale of misery and woe by Demi

Make the author's name come directly after the title, in the same font size, maybe you could have 30+ diary titles in that box frame instead of 15. If that's too small for some people to read (especially if you have a large monitor) then I would suggest only getting rid of the line break after the diary title, so maybe it would look more like:

My tale of misery and woe by Demi

My apologies if it's been brought up before.

Font Size (4.00 / 1) (#26)
by Bad Harmony on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 05:00:10 PM EST

Please leave the fonts at their current size. Small fonts may look legible if you have perfect eyesight. For many others, like myself, they are difficult to read and induce eyestrain. Not only are the characters smaller, the coarse resolution of a typical computer display produces distorted letter forms at small font sizes.

5440' or Fight!
[ Parent ]

uhm. (4.00 / 2) (#29)
by cetan on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 08:35:36 PM EST

There's a link on the right-hand side called "Display Preferences"

You might want to click on it. Just on the off chance that it has something to do with display preferences...

===== cetan www.cetan.com =====
[ Parent ]
Diary display prefs. (none / 0) (#32)
by demi on Sun Jan 20, 2002 at 03:46:37 PM EST

I don't see anything there that affects the way the diaries are displayed on the FP. Am I missing something?

[ Parent ]

No, you're right (none / 0) (#35)
by rusty on Wed Jan 23, 2002 at 01:52:13 PM EST

There isn't anything that will affect that specifically.

The problem is, you want them smaller and 10 others want them bigger, and 150 others want them the size they are now. We really are working on making it so you can adjust things like this for yourself, whenever you want, but it's gonna take a little while because we're trying to do it right, and have a lot of stuff that is much more prssing (i.e. getting some income so rusty can buy food).

So, please be patient. It will happen. Thanks. :-)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Mean-spirited and missing the point (4.41 / 12) (#15)
by itsbruce on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 02:09:35 PM EST

You seem to be eaten up by the idea that other people are getting mojo in a way that you feel is unfair and cheating you. I can't say I admire your attitude and I think you're making something out of nothing.

  1. Mojo is simply a way of discouraging trolling and promoting good discussion, nothing more.
  2. A person's overall mojo score is unpublished and unknown.
  3. The previous points should make it , it is not some kind of mathematical measure of a k5er's "worthiness".

I think you want the k5 rating system to judge people the way you think that they should be judged. That's not what it is for, as I understand it. It works well enough and would not benefit from being made more complex.

Stop worrying about it and get involved in the discussion.

--It is impolite to tell a man who is carrying you on his shoulders that his head smells.

Amen! (5.00 / 4) (#19)
by Weezul on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 02:35:08 PM EST

Trusted user access just ain't that cool. The only point in having it is to know which mod stormer with trusted user access has zero'd all your comments.. and that would mean having a diffrent account with trusted user access since you just lost trusted user access by being mod stormed. It's probably easier to just read the replies your posts collected when the mod storm correcting crowd noticed the abuse.

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini
[ Parent ]
absolutely wrong (5.00 / 3) (#20)
by crayz on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 02:37:40 PM EST

I do post in diaries, maybe more often than in normal stories. This is not a "sour grapes" story.

And no, this is about somehow "punishing" people who post in diaries. I think in many ways diaries are a different than a normal story. Some situations that arise from normal comment ratings in diaries:
- comments (from other posters) in a person's diary can become hidden from the diary's owner
- people can have their own comments in their own diary hidden from others

This isn't mean spirited at all. Don't try to judge my intentions from a simple two paragraph suggestion.

[ Parent ]
Chintzy, but... (3.40 / 5) (#16)
by seebs on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 02:12:44 PM EST

Perhaps if you just couldn't mod comments on your *own* diary, that'd do it.

Bad idea (4.50 / 2) (#18)
by Weezul on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 02:27:38 PM EST

You may be the only person who ever reads your diary after it leaves the front page list, as I discovered in my <a href="http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/1/17/191058/297">FBI, America's Most Wanted, Anthrax and Spelling</a> diary entry. I would say you should let all users rate comments to zero in their own diary entry to allow the removal of spam. As it currently stands you can spam diaries of untrusted users after their diary leaves the front page. Why you would want to do this I do not know, but you could do it.

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini
[ Parent ]
The reason for fives in diaries (4.37 / 8) (#17)
by ucblockhead on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 02:21:47 PM EST

The reason most comments in diaries are rated five is because most people are less rude and less prone to flaming in diaries. That, and all the "I'm modding you 1 because you disagree" types seem to avoid diaries for some reason.

This is k5. We're all tools - duxup

Community (4.66 / 6) (#23)
by duxup on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 04:05:39 PM EST

rusty once commented that the diaries are the second most visited section (behind the front page). I think the diaries are as important as the stories. I might sound a little mushy here but to me the diaries are the heart and soul of K5. I read them all the time. You can find the funniest to the deepest conversations there.

They also seem like a bit of a cathartic area. You can complain about K5, other people's ratings, rusty, or anything and have it recorded for all to see.

Diaries are as important as any other section and should receive the same raiding benefits as others.

hi. (4.66 / 3) (#24)
by Defect on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 04:22:04 PM EST

For someone who admittedly hasn't spent much time in the diary section, you profess to know a lot about how to change it for the better. Rating problems are nothing we haven't gone through before (remeber 'tewl?'), and i would have a hard time picking out a string of rating problems in recent months.

Everything's under control, or as kitten* might say, 'We know what we doing.' People always complain they get ones or zeroes and when others get fives.

Just sit back and enjoy the ride. I have a popsicle you can watch me eat.

* I'm dropping old school diary names and making vague references to #kuro5hin, i'm so fucking l33t i scare myself.
defect - jso - joseth || a link
My opinion on the purpose of ratings... (4.00 / 1) (#27)
by chipuni on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 05:16:34 PM EST

IMHO, ratings are there mostly to help order the posts from "most informative" to "least informative". By rating, you help determine which posts are at the top, and which ones are further down the list.

Whether someone gets trusted access is less significant.

I'll be honest: I do check the ratings of my posts. High ratings make me feel good; low ratings make me feel bad. And I change how I write, based on my guess of why I was rated (if I don't have responses to my post.)

But, to me, the real thrill is seeing my post at or near the top of the list of replies.
Perfection is not reached when nothing more can be added, but only when nothing more can be taken away.
Wisdom for short attention spans.

You must remember... (4.66 / 6) (#28)
by xriso on Sat Jan 19, 2002 at 07:00:42 PM EST

mojo (mostly) does not matter.

If someone abusively hides a comment, the other trusted users will see it and pop it back out into view (it's very easy!). Trusted usership doesn't mean much, so mojo doesn't mean much. Comment ratings mean a little more, since most people like to have Highest First in their comment settings. Despite what some people think, a 1 rating is not the same thing as being sent a bag full of feces by mail. I think that sentence deserves to be in someone's signature. :-)
*** Quits: xriso:#kuro5hin (Forever)

It's the nature of the thing (2.50 / 2) (#33)
by axxeman on Mon Jan 21, 2002 at 01:57:05 AM EST

If you look through my comment ratings, there's a trend of 5s in diaries, while in stories it's either 1s or 5s.

Neither requires any effort or change of my personality type or trollage - well unless I feel like it ;p.

But I do enjoy burning mojo sometimes. Ok, often. So bite me.

No changes to mojo system necessary.

Desperately need Egyptologist. Can you help?

Diaries - bowling for mojo? | 35 comments (29 topical, 6 editorial, 0 hidden)
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