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[P]
First time story-posting advice

By pwhysall in Meta
Sat May 25, 2002 at 08:35:37 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

It's not escaped my attention as an editor on this site that there is a significant number of people signing up and almost immediately posting crappy stories that go down in flames.

Please stop.


We've been around for over two years now, and there's a definite dynamic to the site. We're attracting some very good writers and have some bona fide web classics stashed here.

This is a Good Thing.

I'd much rather see fewer articles of higher quality than the two-paragraphs-and-a-link kind of thing that seems to infest the submissions queue just lately.

Here's how you, gentle new Kuro5hin.org member, can help.

If you've been lurking for ages and ages, and just want to post a particular story, do so. Put it into editing. Check back frequently to ensure that you incorporate or at least read the editorial changes that people suggest.

Look at the front page. Look at what kind of stories get voted to it. By and large, it's the longer, better researched and more polished articles that end up there.

If you're entirely new to the site, don't post a story until you've taken a little while to breathe the air and get a handle on the way things work around here.

Resist the urge to post MLP stories unless the L is very compelling indeed. If you must post MLP, make sure you have an angle on the link that you're posting.

Take your time. It's not a race, and stories that hit the queue in a polished state invariably garner more discussion and get voted up faster than those that are clearly posted in haste.

Try to section your story properly. However, don't bust a gut over this - resectioning is a very easy thing for an editor to do, and I don't like to see people voting -1 just because of the section.

Let's keep Kuro5hin's signal/noise ratio as good as possible.

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Display: Sort:
First time story-posting advice | 189 comments (91 topical, 98 editorial, 0 hidden)
Agreed (3.50 / 6) (#5)
by rleyton on Fri May 24, 2002 at 07:36:58 AM EST

I agree with the sentiments here, as the number of MLP's in the queue seem to be huge, and the amount of pointless mojo whoring going on is Getting On My Nerves.

However, there must be a few alternatives to simply asking nicely, which I suspect will go widely ignored:

  • Prevent new accounts from posting stories until a week or two have passed.
  • Prevent new accounts from posting MLP's until a week or two have passed.
  • Find some means of us (trusted?) users killing a story whilst still in the editing mode. I suspect this'll get spammed to death at some point.
  • Set a limit on the number of MLP's that can be in the queue at any one time

    I don't know, maybe I'm just whining (it's another wet and gloomy London day for me). And there are enough scoop feature requests in my post here for some "post it to scoop developers" replies...

    --
    Ooooooooooooooh! What does this button do!? - DeeDee, Dexters Lab.
    My Website

  • How about.... (4.00 / 1) (#38)
    by kimpton on Fri May 24, 2002 at 10:19:58 AM EST

    ...MLP's in a seperate submission queue to the rest? This way you can get straight to the meaty discussion submissions without being distracted by the floods of MLP's. Those looking for something a bit light hearted or quirky can wade into the MLP submissions queue. I think MLP's would come into there own with this situation and not get drowned out by the folks expecting depth from each submision ('more meat...' etc etc).

    [ Parent ]
    Dealing with submissions (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by wiml on Sat May 25, 2002 at 05:50:04 PM EST

    I think that giving MLPs special treatment would just encourage people to mis-file MLPs into other sections. The submission queue already has a problem dealing with stories that are in the wrong section.

    Preventing new accounts from posting stories for a little while seems like a good idea, but it might just annoy people who would otherwise become interesting k5 posters. I know I didn't bother creating an account until I had been reading k5 for some time and had already absorbed its norms (at least a bit). I created an account so that I could post a comment. If I'd had to wait two weeks before posting, the opportunity to comment would have been long gone. Granted, a comment isn't a story.

    What about other thresholds for story submission? Here's my off the cuff proposal: require an account to have posted one comment which garnered at least 3 votes with a resulting rating of 3.5 or higher. This is a very easy requirement to meet (and I think that it is very important for k5's long term health that any new-user requirement be so minor that most people don't even notice it), but it will still demonstrate that the poster isn't universally despised by the community. This idea is still vulnerable to demagoguery/mojo whoring, but that's a general weakness of k5-style communities that should be dealt with on its own.

    [ Parent ]

    Interesting (4.00 / 5) (#9)
    by streetliar on Fri May 24, 2002 at 07:59:37 AM EST

    How does one get to be an editor? And do you get super-human powers - like being able to check IP addresses?

    I know I have created an account just to post a story, so I think it will be a good idea (like suggested below), to not let new users post stories.

    Sort of like a 3 stage thing - trusted, normal, untrusted.

    That'll cure us of some of the spam - who still remembers after  a week what flame he wanted to start?

    How I became an Editor (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by pwhysall on Fri May 24, 2002 at 08:13:05 AM EST

    I'm a member of the K5 cabal, which obviously, doesn't exist.
    --
    Peter
    K5 Editors
    I'm going to wager that the story keeps getting dumped because it is a steaming pile of badly formatted fool-meme.
    CheeseBurgerBrown
    [ Parent ]
    I post this in order to get your advice... (4.50 / 2) (#109)
    by martingale on Sat May 25, 2002 at 05:30:11 AM EST

    ...about commas. In the sentence "I'm a member of the K5 cabal, which obviously, doesn't exist." I think there needs to be an extra comma right after "which", so that "obviously" is in apposition. Without the comma (ie as you wrote it) the sentence fragment "which obviously" doesn't make sense. Moreover, if you remove it, you get "I'm a member of the K5 cabal, doesn't exist.", a bear of a sentence if you ask me. But of course, I'm asking you as an editor. So, extra comma, is it necessary or did you take poetic license ? :-P.

    [ Parent ]
    Typo. (4.00 / 1) (#112)
    by pwhysall on Sat May 25, 2002 at 05:55:19 AM EST


    --
    Peter
    K5 Editors
    I'm going to wager that the story keeps getting dumped because it is a steaming pile of badly formatted fool-meme.
    CheeseBurgerBrown
    [ Parent ]
    My take (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by tzanger on Sat May 25, 2002 at 10:38:41 PM EST

    "I'm a member of the K5 cabal which, obviously, doesn't exist."

    [ Parent ]
    Your take (none / 0) (#160)
    by rjcjr9 on Sun May 26, 2002 at 02:24:12 PM EST

    The sentence could have been written as: "I'm a member of the K5 cabal, which, obviously, doesn't exist." or: "I'm a member of the K5 cabal that, obviously, doesn't exist." "which", in this case, is a conjunction, and a comma should precede it. The two forms have basically the same meaning but different emphasis. Rob Campbell
    Rob Campbell
    [ Parent ]
    Commas (3.00 / 2) (#157)
    by Ludwig on Sun May 26, 2002 at 12:11:34 PM EST

    In the sentence "I'm a member of the K5 cabal, which, obviously, doesn't exist." the latter two commas serve only to indicate a particular speech pattern, in this case a sort of "ironic wink" effect.

    "I'm a member of the K5 cabal, which obviously doesn't exist." has the same meaning and is grammatically correct, but lacks that little bit of nuance.

    "Obviously" could also be put in parentheses or between em-dashes.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't think you're entirely correct (none / 0) (#170)
    by martingale on Sun May 26, 2002 at 10:54:58 PM EST

    "I'm a member of the K5 cabal, which obviously doesn't exist." has the same meaning and is grammatically correct, but lacks that little bit of nuance.
    A quick Google search reveals the rule:
    A single comma should never break the flow of the main subject, verb, and object or complement of a sentence. Instead, commas should occur in pairs.
    I've heard the pair rule before and it seems reasonable, although there obviously are exceptions. Can anyone link to an authoritative reference? However, I agree with your wink interpretation.

    [ Parent ]
    From your link: (none / 0) (#178)
    by Ludwig on Mon May 27, 2002 at 11:20:16 AM EST

    Use a comma between all independent clauses. Whenever you have a compound sentence (those are the ones joined by and, but, or, nor, for, whereas), put a comma before the conjunction (the words I just listed in italics).
    That list of words should include "and sometimes 'which.'" It's a compound sentence. To follow the link's rule strictly, it could be restated as "I'm a member of the K5 cabal, but that obviously doesn't exist." It's already a contracted compound sentence, though; it compounds "I'm a member of the K5 cabal." and "The K5 cabal obviously doesn't exist."

    [ Parent ]
    seem funny to you? (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by chopper on Tue May 28, 2002 at 09:21:11 AM EST

    Instead, commas should occur in pairs.

    yeah, yeah, context and all, but i thought that sentance was a little funny, with the single comma and all.

    give a man a fish,he'll eat for a day

    give a man religion and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish
    [ Parent ]

    yeah (none / 0) (#186)
    by martingale on Tue May 28, 2002 at 06:43:22 PM EST

    but I thought talking about it would make my comment less readable. Besides, it's kind of fun to discover it on your own :-)

    [ Parent ]
    Welcome to K5 (4.70 / 10) (#39)
    by jabber on Fri May 24, 2002 at 10:20:24 AM EST

    A while back, we had a flurry of posted stories (one was even mine) and diaries on the in-flux of new users, and how to make their transition into K5, and K5's experience of their arrival, go most smoothly.

    One of the suggestions I'm most fond of is the setting aside of a special area to introduce new users to the site. This area, IMHO, should contain selected articles on how to behave (for lack of a better word) on the site, and examples of what remarkable content-articles look like.

    I would like to bring up the idea of this area once again, and suggest that this* article is a great example of the former sub-category, while 'the classics' you mention constitute the whole of the latter subset.

    It's important realize that people can not be forced or manipulated into reading the material that we'd proposed to set aside for their edification. It's also necessary realize that even if the material is read, it does not mean that the spirit of it will be adhered to. Further, we must acknowledge that many people get very excited about the opportunities for expression that K5 provides, and will rush ahead blindly anyway, without reading 'the brochure'. But, also, I think that most people come here to seek community. Most will put some effort into being conscientious, into contributing to the site in a positive manner, and into building a respectable reputation.

    Yes, there will always be mean-spirited and abussive people who look to cause trouble. There will also be mindless trolls - as opposed to the mindful variety which make up the bulk of the troll population here. But, again, most people mean well and have no ulterior motive, seeking only to take part in the goings on of the site.

    Please, to the powers that be, do give some more thought to helping these people out by making guidelines such as this article, and good examples such as 'the 'classics', more prominent and more easily accessible, especially to new users.

    [TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"

    Mark a story as "First Story"? (4.66 / 3) (#62)
    by cem on Fri May 24, 2002 at 12:30:13 PM EST

    A special area to introduce new users to the site is not a bad idea.

    How about to mark a story automatically as "First Story" and post it in "Edit Mode"?


    Young Tarzan: I'll be the best ape ever!
    [ Parent ]

    I thought so too. (none / 0) (#98)
    by mami on Fri May 24, 2002 at 08:45:49 PM EST

    This area, IMHO, should contain selected articles on how to behave (for lack of a better word) on the site

    Feel free to educate me on this one, please. I am exited to hear all about it.

    [ Parent ]

    Rule #1: no poofdahs (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by trane on Fri May 24, 2002 at 10:29:48 PM EST

    Rule #2: There is to be no maltreatment of the abos in any way at all...if there's anybody watching.

    Rule #3: No poofdahs

    Rule #4: Now this term, I don't want to catch anybody not drinking.

    Rule #5: no poofdahs

    Rule #6: There is NO rule 6.

    Rule #7: No poofdahs

    Rule #8: Spelling errors are the most grievous sin known to mankind.

    [ Parent ]

    poofdahs (none / 0) (#106)
    by mami on Fri May 24, 2002 at 11:28:18 PM EST

    You sinned. This must be misspelled. What's a poofdah? Am I a poofdah?

    [ Parent ]
    oh don't mind Bruce, he's got a pommy accent [n/t] (none / 0) (#115)
    by martingale on Sat May 25, 2002 at 06:12:46 AM EST



    [ Parent ]
    My name is mami - you sinned again (none / 0) (#124)
    by mami on Sat May 25, 2002 at 07:34:02 AM EST

    First you misspell, then you answer to the wrong person. Shame on you.

    [ Parent ]
    Ah, anti-semitism! (none / 0) (#126)
    by trane on Sat May 25, 2002 at 08:21:24 AM EST

    it's spelt Raymond Luxury Yach-t, but it's pronounced 'Throatwobbler Mangrove'.


    [ Parent ]
    You're a very silly man... (none / 0) (#159)
    by JWhiton on Sun May 26, 2002 at 01:34:36 PM EST

    ...and I'm not going to interview you.

    [ Parent ]
    And now for something completely different ... (none / 0) (#187)
    by cafeman on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 01:01:39 AM EST


    "No Silicon heaven? But where would all the calculators go?"
    [ Parent ]
    here in 'stralia, we call everyone Bruce (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by martingale on Sat May 25, 2002 at 08:22:27 AM EST

    Australia, Australia, Australia, Australia, we love you amen!

    [ Parent ]
    Aah what a disappointment (none / 0) (#131)
    by mami on Sat May 25, 2002 at 09:26:33 AM EST

    I felt so flattered... thinking I could troll you like the famous Bruce...

    [ Parent ]
    Bingo! (none / 0) (#113)
    by cem on Sat May 25, 2002 at 06:00:23 AM EST

    Very politly expressed ... ;)


    Young Tarzan: I'll be the best ape ever!
    [ Parent ]
    I still don't like that idea (none / 0) (#142)
    by Spatula on Sat May 25, 2002 at 10:27:16 PM EST

    I, too, have mulled the idea of a 'new poster' section, which showcased the gems of k5dom, but the whole idea puts me off, and I can explain my reticence. I don't want new users to conform to a mold. I want new users to post stories in any style they choose. Not only that, but I want no restrictions whatsoever on the type, stylle and length of said stories. K5 is subject to the same principles as any blog. Change or die. I think the fact that Rusty and Inoshiro haven't implemented a 'new users' section points to the fact that the new users don't need a tutorial. Instead, let's vote down the wankers and vote up the good articles. Leave the teaching to the moderation queue. We know what we want to see, and often vote accordingly.
    --
    someday I'll find something to put here.
    [ Parent ]
    Done. (none / 0) (#158)
    by Ludwig on Sun May 26, 2002 at 12:15:58 PM EST

    We already have a special area for new users. Perhaps it could be more prominently featured and/or include more tutorial material, though.

    [ Parent ]
    I bite again (none / 0) (#165)
    by mami on Sun May 26, 2002 at 04:26:58 PM EST

    Yes, there will always be mean-spirited and abussive people who look to cause trouble. There will also be mindless trolls - as opposed to the mindful variety which make up the bulk of the troll population here.

    I am one of those year-long newbies, who never get who is a troll and who is not. Even worse, I don't seem to get who is the abusive kind and who is humourous, mindful one.

    I am so desperate about my own stupidity to not figure out what apparently everybody else but me is understanding after a couple of weeks, that I gave up and didn't care anymore.

    Add to that my old age and the fact that I can't keep up neither with memorizing the nick names of some people , nor keep up with the constant influx of new nicks with same said trolling behavioural pattern. I recognized a bad troll a couple of months ago and decided I never, ever would talk to those bad guys again and then half a year later, I forgot their names and fall for them again. Sigh, cruel life.

    How about putting up a big section on the frontpage, where the bad trolls are listen in fat letters, so that every newbie, who just doesn't get it, can see, who is considered an abusive troll and who is considered a mindful troll? That would really make my life sooo much easier.

    [ Parent ]

    You're a troll (none / 0) (#182)
    by trane on Mon May 27, 2002 at 09:52:30 PM EST



    [ Parent ]
    New user might not be really new (4.00 / 4) (#46)
    by jtra on Fri May 24, 2002 at 10:41:36 AM EST

    Consider following situation:

    User is long-time reader of k5. S/He didn't get account since being anonymous is fine for few lines comment. But now he want to post story, s/he will get k5 account and post.

    --Get textmode user interface for Ruby, http://klokan.sh.cvut.cz/~jtra/

    I'm the case... (3.00 / 1) (#91)
    by KiTaSuMbA on Fri May 24, 2002 at 07:03:01 PM EST

    well not exactly, but I paid regular visits to k5 long before I made an account. The article however does have a point (wether it is about newbies or just people-in-a-rush-to-post) on the MLP queues with that "L" being just a little "l".
    My advice: read, comment, vote for some time before trying to write a story yourself. Some diary writing is also a nice idea (though the "common user profile" of mainly-diary readers is somewhat different).
    Guidelines are wellcome (link the FAQ), elitism is unacceptable.
     
    There is no Dopaminergic Pepperoni Kabal!
    [ Parent ]
    Writing ... (4.00 / 6) (#57)
    by cem on Fri May 24, 2002 at 11:38:59 AM EST

    ... in the personal diary is a good exercise for newbies. I recommend it. Reading them is also fun.

    ... I welcome good new editors to k5! Give them a fair chance.


    Young Tarzan: I'll be the best ape ever!

    Hold the fucking boat. (4.28 / 7) (#70)
    by Sheepdot on Fri May 24, 2002 at 01:49:31 PM EST

    Let's see. I post the same story about 6 months ago talking about all the new /. submitters talking about Legos, Star Wars, and etc. and their attitudes when they don't get a story submitted and my story got shot down.

    Hard.

    The reason I was given was: "Why do you need to tell us this, let them submit it and we'll decide if it is good enough". Well, look now at the number of submissions that fill the queue. Like I'm even going to bother with half of them.

    You say: "I'd much rather see fewer articles of higher quality than the two-paragraphs-and-a-link kind of thing that seems to infest the submissions queue just lately."

    Their response: "QUEUE NAZI!!!!"

    Hell, the reaction by the people then was ironic considering a number of them turned around and ended up submitting something similar to it, like the author of this one.

    I'm not buying it.

    consistency (none / 0) (#183)
    by adiffer on Mon May 27, 2002 at 11:05:00 PM EST

    Maybe some of them are getting worn down with time. 8)

    If I had been around for this story earlier, I would have stuck to my belief that I can vote them down faster than the trash can be submitted. I would rather people participated than not.

    -Dream Big.
    --Grow Up.
    [ Parent ]

    What's the point of this article? (4.33 / 6) (#77)
    by Joe Groff on Fri May 24, 2002 at 02:47:49 PM EST

    If someone posts a crap story to the queue, it gets voted down, plain and simple. The whole purpose of the queue is to separate the gold from the mud. Guidelines for posting quality stories already exist in the FAQ, and even the most clueless newbie is going to wise up eventually when his stories keep getting rejected. This article is pointless -- newbies aren't going to read it any more than they read the FAQ or other documents on the site. They'll either adapt to the idiosyncrasies of this community, or they'll give up and move on.
    --
    How long must I travel on
    to be just where you are?

    Like... (4.66 / 3) (#78)
    by mikael_j on Fri May 24, 2002 at 03:04:28 PM EST

    We don't want to spend all day handing out -1s to shitty MLPs...

    We give a bad name to the internet in general. - Rusty
    [ Parent ]
    All day? (none / 0) (#179)
    by TON on Mon May 27, 2002 at 06:46:47 PM EST

    It doesn't take that many -1 votes to kill a crap story. There are a lot of users on K5. There are a lot of people complaining about story quality. There is already a built-in anti MLP bias in the form of a mess of users who automatically nix anything MLP.

    If everyone who is bitching about crap stories checked the Mod Queue every time they logged in and actually spent a little time voting, then this "problem" would disappear.

    "First, I am born. Then, the trouble begins." -- Schizopolis

    Ted


    [ Parent ]

    You people (4.15 / 13) (#83)
    by medham on Fri May 24, 2002 at 03:40:56 PM EST

    Are far too vain about your own writing abilities, which are on the whole quite modest, and your ability to distinguish good from bad writing.

    In truth, articles are routinely voted down here because they tweak certain received ideas of the constituent demographic. Only that and nothing more.

    The real 'medham' has userid 6831.

    Here's some advice (3.33 / 3) (#85)
    by DeadBaby on Fri May 24, 2002 at 04:04:25 PM EST

    PLEASE don't keep rehashing topics such as copyright, Bush bashing, etc. If nothing interesting has happened to change the way people look at issues, there's no need to write up an article about them. Wait until there's relevant news that might actually create intresting exchanges between K5 users.
    "Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity -- in all this vastness -- there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. It is up to us." - Carl Sagan
    I like hash (4.00 / 1) (#92)
    by jolly st nick on Fri May 24, 2002 at 07:03:18 PM EST

    Hash. Yumm.

    Seriously, though, I'd hate to see an outright prohibition on a topic like the copyright, or articles critical to the Bush administration forbidden.

    As I've said in other comments, I think that if you are approaching a third rail kind of topic, like abortion, or a nearly flogged to death topic like the FL presidential election, it is fair that you should be held to a higher standard. The article on one of these topics should pass one of three tests:

    1. It was unusually well written.
    2. It has a fresh and original viewpoint.
    3. It is unusually well researched.

    Ideally, of course, all three.

    The goal of a voter in the submission queue should be to make the site as interesting as possible. Sometimes bad articles should make it becuase the topic needs discussing. Sometimes good articles should be dropped because the topic has recently been discussed.

    Take for example the recent article on "Things that go bump in the night." It was quite good, I thought. It also was a genuinely fresh topic. However, if somebody in the next few months is inspired to write their on ghost story, it would have to be much better to get my vote.

    [ Parent ]

    I disagree (4.66 / 3) (#97)
    by Spork on Fri May 24, 2002 at 08:12:36 PM EST

    I think that every single infringement of our rights and liberties, be they regarding copyright or anything else, should not be allowed to go through without comment or protest. If it does, we'll soon be no better than 30's Germany.

    As for Bush-bashing: I think that if a president of the USA does something terribly stupid and dangerous, it should not pass without comment. Just because the current president does stupid and dangerous things constantly doesn't mean we are "bashing" him, since the term "bashing" implies that our criticism is somehow unfair.

    [ Parent ]

    Why your good advice may be ignored (3.66 / 3) (#89)
    by SocratesGhost on Fri May 24, 2002 at 05:13:01 PM EST

    I abuse the intent of the Editorial vs. Topical options all the time when I'm posting a new comment. All this distinction means to me is whether my comment will live outside of the voting queue or not and I base my choice on how long I want my comment to be visible. This means that I may post an editorial critique that I think has merit beyond the voting section. An example would be saying, "I don't think this kind of story belongs on K5"; this has great discussion potential although it is an editorial comment. While this is against the design's intended use, the design allows for both uses.

    Ultimately, posts have one control: mass appeal. While you can put out a call for better stories, the only mechanism that can enforce that is if the community enforces it for you. Your post, then, should be directed towards those who really make the difference: the voters. I'd expect that people would agree with you in theory, but their actual voting practices aren't likely to change at this point. This isn't a small like-minded community.

    -Soc
    I drank what?


    Editorial comments don't die (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by localroger on Fri May 24, 2002 at 07:53:48 PM EST

    ...they just get hidden in the default configuration. I have my user preferences set to always show editorial comments, even after a story is posted. In fact, both editorial and topical comments on stories that die in queue remain available, though you have to have a direct link to find them.

    Not a big distinction, since most people keep the default settings... but you might want to be aware that your deathless prose is immortal even if you make it "editorial."

    I can haz blog!
    [ Parent ]

    We had a conversation about this earlier (4.33 / 6) (#90)
    by cafeman on Fri May 24, 2002 at 05:31:25 PM EST

    Basically it covered the potential impact on the story queue of the increased population on K5. It's an interesting read if scalability interests you. The story is "How will K5 avoid being crushed by content".

    "No Silicon heaven? But where would all the calculators go?"

    bugger off (3.09 / 11) (#94)
    by turmeric on Fri May 24, 2002 at 07:57:07 PM EST

    if you dont like democracy, go back to slashdot.

    or adequacy. (1.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Phillip Asheo on Sat May 25, 2002 at 10:57:11 PM EST

    Adequacy is the other side of the slashdot coin. No pretence of democracy is made. The site can and does censor people regulary, and yet the level of debate at that site far exceeds anything you see here or at slashdot.

    It is a paradox of Internet discussion sites. In order to let truly controversial debate take place, it seems that you have to censor people.

    Adequacy's policy is merely to censor outright trolls, or idiocy, and so far, it seems to have worked. Adequacy has never been 'crapflooded' and no troll stories have managed to work their way onto the front page.

    My only problem with adequacy, is that they seem to be a bit elitist, and they look down on anyone with an IQ below 150.

    --
    "Never say what you can grunt. Never grunt what you can wink. Never wink what you can nod, never nod what you can shrug, and don't shrug when it ain't necessary"
    -Earl Long
    [ Parent ]

    Adequacy == Troll (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by buck on Sun May 26, 2002 at 12:17:43 AM EST

    Actually,  Addakwasee is nothing but a troll site; run by trolls for trolls. The censorship going on there has nothing to do with improving the signal-to-noise ratio and everything to do their just wanting to fuck with you for no real reason whatsoever. Of course, it's their little party, and they can do what they want, as long as they simply talk amongst themselves. As one of them is so fond of saying, "We don't want you here."

    ---

    -----
    “You, on the other hand, just spew forth your mental phlegmwads all over the place and don't have the goddamned courtesy to throw us a tissue afterwards.” -- kitten
    [ Parent ]

    Run by trolls ? (1.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Phillip Asheo on Sun May 26, 2002 at 12:48:13 AM EST

    Are you serious ? I did wonder about some of the more extreme viewpoints they put across, but I just thought they were playing "Devil's Advocate", although now you mention it, some of the articles there did seem a bit like controversy for controversy's sake. But I don't think it's the circle jerk you seem to imply, after all they have around 10000 account holders.

    As for the 'we don't want you here' attitude I just assumed that was to keep the morons out.

    --
    "Never say what you can grunt. Never grunt what you can wink. Never wink what you can nod, never nod what you can shrug, and don't shrug when it ain't necessary"
    -Earl Long
    [ Parent ]

    Absolutely... (none / 0) (#166)
    by buck on Sun May 26, 2002 at 05:09:37 PM EST

    ...and most, if not all of them, have accounts here so they can fuck with k5 users (Hi perdida and elenchos, you sorry assholes :P ). About the only thing they advocate is being an asshole, which, of course, is fine with me as long as they keep it to their little website.

    By the way, if all this reads like I'm stating the obvious, you're not the intended audience.

    ---
    -----
    “You, on the other hand, just spew forth your mental phlegmwads all over the place and don't have the goddamned courtesy to throw us a tissue afterwards.” -- kitten
    [ Parent ]

    This article sucks! (4.42 / 14) (#95)
    by Spork on Fri May 24, 2002 at 08:03:05 PM EST

    There is only one piece of advice this article gives which isn't a mere platitude that amounts to "make sure your articles are good." It is that you prefer long articles over short ones.

    I, on the other hand, prefer two insightful paragraphs and a good link to the vacuity that you posted.

    I think one reason that many MLP articles go down in flames is not because the links are uncompelling, but instead because of mindless moderation (which this article seems to encourage). Too many moderators here have the attitude "I'll vote it up because it's long," as if you were still in grade school and thought that everyone who took the trouble to write a "long" essay deserved an A (that's like a "1" in Europe) regardless of what it actually said. Likewise, the posters who have the decency to keep it brief and say only what's absolutely relevant get voted down, because moderators don't want to reward brevity. I think that's really stupid. It makes me think of the famous and insightful line by Mark Twain: "I am writing you a long letter because I didn't have the time to write a short one." I wish more of our moderators would be mature enough to recognize the wisdom in this comment.

    Grades all over OT (none / 0) (#172)
    by Enocasiones on Mon May 27, 2002 at 05:06:13 AM EST

    [...]a "long" essay deserved an A (that's like a "1" in Europe)

    Wrong. It might be a 1 in Germany, or a 15 if you were in the last terms of high school. Or it could be a 20 in France. What about a 10 in Spain?

    Education is not a European union yet...

    [ Parent ]

    damn, don't remind me (none / 0) (#173)
    by martingale on Mon May 27, 2002 at 05:47:38 AM EST

    It's very rare to get a "20" in school in France. Usually the teacher will give a 19.5 and not more, because 20 would be "perfection", hence should be unachievable. Much better to get a "1" in say the German system ;-)

    [ Parent ]
    On the other hand (4.50 / 6) (#99)
    by mami on Fri May 24, 2002 at 09:15:22 PM EST

    If we all have to be little Hemingways, you won't find an article posted after a while. May be some might want to use K5 as a writer's lab and publish here to get a feeling for how well received their stories are, but there are a lot of people, who just want to discuss issues. Therefore the more variety you get in the articles the better, even if they are not all of localroger's ot rusty's and associate's quality.

    There are many articles, which are very well written, but don't cause a lot of comments. As nice as that is, I would prefer to read something I am interested in talking about, without having to worry too much about lax punctuation, lack of vocabulary or writing style.



    the alternative is (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by martingale on Sat May 25, 2002 at 06:27:44 AM EST

    A majority of badly written articles, followed by more or less discussion depending upon the prevailing interest. Personally, I think that a well written article attracts better discussions than the equivalent content which is simply slapped together. Hmm, in fact, a good article is simply inspirational.

    [ Parent ]
    Of course, (5.00 / 3) (#123)
    by mami on Sat May 25, 2002 at 07:30:32 AM EST

    I do agree with that. But I ask myself WHAT K5 is or wants to be? If it is meant to be a completely democratic writing paradise, you have to accept that trash is voted up by the "electorate" and quality is voted down by "satano-libertarian baby eaters".

    You have to accept that good technical articles are not commented on intelligently, because of morons like me, who don't behave properly and have the audacity to pull the "ivory tower geeks" in the dirty gutters of ignorance.

    You have to accept that something inspirational can leave you with the only comment of "yeah, how true" and off we go to the next issue.

    I think you can't have it both ways. If you want quality to prevail, you have to have the courage to accept the verdict of some editorial cabal and hope they are not morons. If you want freedom "absolue" live with the trash and risk to get brainwashed with the water you cleaned your dirty dishes with.

    [ Parent ]

    yes, definitely an existential question (5.00 / 3) (#125)
    by martingale on Sat May 25, 2002 at 08:16:35 AM EST

    I do agree with that. But I ask myself WHAT K5 is or wants to be?
    And phrased like that, it's unlikely to be decidable, especially in a democracy. How about, it's like a pub? A place to show off, let your hair down and be merry, with the occasional all encompassing brawl (not necessarily in that order). I guess the popular ones have bouncers, while k5 has the cabal.
    You have to accept that good technical articles are not commented on intelligently, because of morons like me, who don't behave properly and have the audacity to pull the "ivory tower geeks" in the dirty gutters of ignorance.
    Turnabout is fair play. If the geeks can't slurp the people up into the tower of light, they deserve the criticism and the stains on the pocket protectors. It comes off in the wash anyway.

    [ Parent ]
    If not little Hemmingways ... (none / 0) (#141)
    by HypoLuxa on Sat May 25, 2002 at 10:01:28 PM EST

    ... can we be little Faulkners instead?

    Personally, I think that a good story, either here on kuro5hin or on other reader moderated sites, should not be judged just on it's content but also on an author's ability to use extremely complex , long, yet grammatically correct sentences that can be enjoyed for their content as well as their style, and can provide hours of sentence diagramming fun.

    --
    I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons.
    - Leonard Cohen
    [ Parent ]

    Retro (none / 0) (#146)
    by prometheus on Sun May 26, 2002 at 12:17:03 AM EST

    The other day while eating dinner with my wife, she told me that perhaps the reason no one that I know can understand me is because my speech patterns are too much like written text.  The term she used was "retro".

    Of course, I didn't know what the fuck she was talking about, so she expounded on the statement, saying that I write and speak like it's some bad 1890's Charles Dickens pence-per-word novel which he drags out for several years so he can keep his subscription base, and although I have nothing against Charles Dickens, and immensly enjoy many of his works, his language is not really what modern people seem to be looking for, or even able to understand, especially when there are more than one or two parts to sentences.

    I was trying to explain netmasks and general IP addressing concepts to a friend of mine who has several college degrees, ranging from Fine Arts to English Literature to Math, and is also not stupid by any stretch of the imagination, yet he seemed to be quite lost after the first sentece or two.  Needless to say, it was a frustrating experience for both of us, and afer 45 minutes of verbal abuse over the course of our little phone conversation, he gave up and hung up.

    I like to think that this is a good place for such retro writing, however, because the readers on this site on average seem to be able to hold more than one clause in their head at a time, and then reassemble them once the ever-elusive period is encountered at the terminus of the sentence.

    --
    <omnifarad> We've got a guy killing people in DC without regard for his astro van's horrible fuel economy
    [ Parent ]

    try French or German (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by martingale on Sun May 26, 2002 at 03:42:54 AM EST

    As languages, they tend to favour the complex sentence structure English eschews. Perhaps you're not so much "retro" as "stuck" in the wrong culture :-)

    [ Parent ]
    Latin (none / 0) (#152)
    by prometheus on Sun May 26, 2002 at 03:52:28 AM EST

    I took a lot of Latin in school.  Probably more than should be legal in most countries.

    --
    <omnifarad> We've got a guy killing people in DC without regard for his astro van's horrible fuel economy
    [ Parent ]
    heh, I know what you mean (none / 0) (#154)
    by martingale on Sun May 26, 2002 at 05:02:57 AM EST

    After five years myself, I was fed up with it, though it had its moments. My favourite was reading Asterix in Latin...

    [ Parent ]
    Winnie ille Pooh (none / 0) (#171)
    by prometheus on Mon May 27, 2002 at 01:18:02 AM EST

    Not exactly Classical, but still a nice read.

    --
    <omnifarad> We've got a guy killing people in DC without regard for his astro van's horrible fuel economy
    [ Parent ]
    Aah, now I bite (none / 0) (#164)
    by mami on Sun May 26, 2002 at 04:11:40 PM EST

    It's beautiful, but could you write, for example, a very long-sentenced litte manual, which would make clear how and where you set punctuation?

    If I had the genius to formulate your above sentences, I think I would have put commas at several places without knowing exactly why I shouldn't.

    Here is your story with my punctuation. Tell me why I shouldn't set commas, where I most probably would have put them.

    quote:

    The other day (,) while eating dinner with my wife, she told me(,) that perhaps the reason no one that I know can understand me(,) is because my speech patterns are too much like written text. The term she used was "retro".

    Of course, I didn't know what the fuck she was talking about, so she expounded on the statement (no,here) saying (,) that I write and speak like it's some bad 1890's Charles Dickens pence-per-word novel(,) which he drags out for several years(,) so he can keep his subscription base, and although I have nothing against Charles Dickens(no,here) and immensly enjoy many of his works, his language is not really what modern people seem to be looking for (no,here) or even able to understand, especially when there are more than one or two parts to sentences.

    I was trying to explain netmasks and general IP addressing concepts to a friend of mine(,) who has several college degrees(no,here) ranging from Fine Arts to English Literature to Math(no,here) and is also not stupid by any stretch of the imagination, yet he seemed to be quite lost after the first sentece or two. Needless to say, it was a frustrating experience for both of us, and afer 45 minutes of verbal abuse over the course of our little phone conversation(no,here) he gave up and hung up.

    I like to think(,) that this is a good place for such retro writing, however, because the readers on this site on average seem to be able to hold more than one clause in their head at a time, and then reassemble them once the ever-elusive period is encountered at the terminus of the sentence.

    and of quote

    Needless to say that I place commas intuitively the way I would put them in a German sentence. I can't figure out what's so different in German rules of punctuation (which I of course have also forgotten and don't look up) and English punctuation, whose rules escaped to make sense to me (or were never explained to me in a way that I could grasp them, mainly because you teach gramar so differently from the way I learned it some time ago). Now I think I caught the idea that you don't put a comma before the word "that", but I feel sometimes that is correct and other times it is not. What's the rule?

    [ Parent ]

    Commas are Grammar's Little Whore (none / 0) (#167)
    by HypoLuxa on Sun May 26, 2002 at 10:14:49 PM EST

    They will do just about anywhere. If you read some Faulkner to get a sense of that complexity, you realize that a lot of people will overpuntuate, particularly with commas, their sentences so that they more close resemble their speech patterns. Many writers interpret "comma" to equal "pause" so their prose is littered with them. I guess it's the difference in seeing something purely as a written sentence instead of one meant to be spoken.

    --
    I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons.
    - Leonard Cohen
    [ Parent ]
    Zeichensetzung im Deutschen und Englischen (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by martingale on Sun May 26, 2002 at 10:34:28 PM EST

    Siehe 7.g, but I believe that you shouldn't put a comma between the verb and the object in English.

    [ Parent ]

    Thank You :-) (none / 0) (#176)
    by mami on Mon May 27, 2002 at 08:55:43 AM EST

    especially for the English rules.

    [ Parent ]
    I bow to the master. (none / 0) (#168)
    by HypoLuxa on Sun May 26, 2002 at 10:16:45 PM EST

    That was good. To paraphrase the Beastie Boys, "grammar master, cut faster."

    --
    I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons.
    - Leonard Cohen
    [ Parent ]
    People turn off (none / 0) (#188)
    by the womble on Sun Jun 16, 2002 at 09:58:39 AM EST

    I was trying to explain netmasks and general IP addressing concepts to a friend of mine who has several college degrees, ranging from Fine Arts to English Literature to Math, and is also not stupid by any stretch of the imagination, yet he seemed to be quite lost after the first sentece or two.

    I would guess he is like many people I know who are intelligent but can not undertand mathematical, scientific or technical topics.

    A large part of it seems to be that they have convinced themselves that they can not understand anything with numbers in it. They then (not necessarilly conciously) turn off their brains as soon as they hear a number.

    I suspect it may often go back to having been taught maths badly in school, having parents who shared the same weakness, being being brought up with the idea that technical subjects were for boys (obviously women only) etc.

    People can have very narrow areas of weakness. My sister has a degree in physics and (obviously) manged to do practicals with fairly complex electrical and electronic equipment. She can not wire a plug.

    If retro writing means writing so taht people ahve to excercise their brains I am all for it!

    [ Parent ]

    anti-post on the anti-post (4.27 / 11) (#104)
    by rohrbach on Fri May 24, 2002 at 10:39:56 PM EST

    because of people like you, who think that long and bloated articles are better (if it was hard to write, it should be hard to read and understand), people like me will not write an article on k5, but just comment or moderate.

    i am not judging here if that's a good or bad thing - other folks can do that, it's a kind of democracy here. i made my vote.

    i wish to point out, that there are quite a few non-US readers on k5. as a non-native english speaker i tend to skip articles that are badly written. from my perspective, articles that do not lead to the point in a reasonable amount of paragraphs or use obfuscated and complicated language fall into this category.

    someday, when i write an article about what is important to me, or i consider relevant to all of us, i'll publish it on my personal web site and put an MLP on k5, as a direct consequence.

    don't get me wrong here, i certainly don't mind to be criticised about my bad englisch (german for "english") - i like to be criticised in terms of style, synonyms or vocabulary. this (hopefully) improves language skills. what i dislike are comments reflecting prejudice, "just because it's not slashdot" attitude, "linux rules the world" vs. "(BSD|M$) is dead" threads, etc. you get the point. since this is also domcratically solved, it should not pose a big problem to the k5 community, should it? if it is a problem, the voting and rating system needs to be fixed.

    MLPs should be accepted by you just the way they are.
    been there. done that. got flamed. i'm not impressed.
    if you don't accept them in their current form, cut the word "mindless" and rename the section LP.

    another way to tackle problems related to the large amount of articles coming in might be creating subsections of MLP and stuffing that into the section's interface. anything that will result in a finer section/subsection granularity with an easy-to-use user interface will do.

    this all just IMVHO. comment if your opinion differs. please, do not just rate 0 or 1. i'd like to know what you think about this.

    --
    Give a tool to a fool, and it might become a weapon.

    on the postal schism (5.00 / 4) (#118)
    by martingale on Sat May 25, 2002 at 06:44:45 AM EST

    because of people like you, who think that long and bloated articles are better (if it was hard to write, it should be hard to read and understand), people like me will not write an article on k5, but just comment or moderate.
    I don't interpret pwhysall's story as favouring long and bloated articles. Quality to me is in the density, not the volume of writing. Think poetry rather than epic.

    Where I agree with him is that it is all too easy to copy a link from the Other Site and slap a general descriptive paragraph around it. If somebody wants to share a link, I want to hear their reason for bringing it up, and not just simply "hey look there, I really like this". What's the discussion going to be? "hey it's crap" vs "hey no, I like it too".

    written. from my perspective, articles that do not lead to the point in a reasonable amount of paragraphs or use obfuscated and complicated language fall into this category.
    I agree with you here. Simple, straightforward and nontrivial. That's how I prefer articles.

    [ Parent ]
    IDIC (4.81 / 22) (#128)
    by localroger on Sat May 25, 2002 at 08:37:17 AM EST

    I think it's a mistake to say K5 should focus on {insert preference} type of article; the beauty of the system is that it allows a wide range of styles to come through, and allows the focus to shift with the mood of the userbase.

    I've written some well-received pieces, but if everything in the queue were in my style people would stay away in droves. It would get old. K5 should be like a newspaper. It needs a variety of types of article:

    • News, of course, often in MLP form.
    • Discussion topics, including hot-button flamebait, that get those comments rolling in
    • Satire and humor
    • Reviews of movies, books, and so on
    • How-to, advice, and educational self-improvement features
    • The slice-of-life "Living" section feature that's just a pleasant read *cough*
    Now the thing that is K5's greatest strength -- the open and unsolicited queue -- is also a weakness, because there is no one to control the mix; depending on who is in the mood to write what, and how the voters feel, the front page may have a dramatically different tone from week to week. We may also see a lull in article submission, followed by 10 great FP articles in a few days. There really isn't anything that can be done about this, except to turn the site into another /. clone. I think it's a lot more interesting the way it is; you never quite know what to expect.

    My own advice to would-be authors would be:

    • Be aware of the topics that been posted recently, and try to post something different.
    • Be aware of the style, layout, and format of articles which have been well received, and mimic them.
    • Give added value. Collect multiple MLP's together, or give a short review so we can tell whether it sounds interesting.
    • At least take a stab at getting grammar and spelling right. I'm no grammar Nazi, but if an article is loaded with howlers or there's a prominent one in the title, it looks like you don't really care.
    • Be aware that some topics just won't get a fair hearing. This is not bad, it's the nature of the process. You must write for the audience.
    • Make your biases and assumptions clear up front, and show an awareness that others will disagree with you.
    • Don't assume an understanding of technical terms, unusual words, lore or mythology, and so on, such as the title of this comment.
    Now, with that out of the way, I also have an "If only they would..." list for the voters. Please don't slam-dunk articles for:

    • You personally disagree with them. You're not the only reader here.
    • Minor grammar and spelling, if the author gave it an honest effort.
    • Too long, too short, too MLP, too 9/11, or whatever without reading the damn thing.
    • Factual incorrectness, if the author is trying to get it right; 'tis better to discuss and correct than to nuke.
    Of course everyone is going to go ahead and write and vote as they wish; part of K5's charm is that Rusty seems willing to let the experiment play out with a minimum of micro-management. As long as I keep feeling the urge to check in and see what's new, I'll personally feel that the writers and voters of K5 are doing okay.

    I can haz blog!

    A very good comment indeed (2.50 / 2) (#133)
    by cem on Sat May 25, 2002 at 11:37:35 AM EST

    ... and very constructive.


    Young Tarzan: I'll be the best ape ever!
    [ Parent ]
    Read the Help/FAQ (3.00 / 1) (#134)
    by bodrius on Sat May 25, 2002 at 01:41:06 PM EST

    I think you have a point, but would prefer to see this dealt with in a longer, properly researched article. If you remove some optional newlines, this amounts to two paragraphs with no link.

    It sounds a bit like a preference for a particular style of writing (longer articles), but I get the impression you're concerned with the more general idea of quality, which is more flexible. That would indicate this article would have benefited from some polishing.

    Maybe a FAQ of sorts for first story submissions would be in order... oh, wait, there is already one in the FAQ and it's not that bad!

    Really, although I share with you the concern over the signal-to-noise ratio, I don't think this advice is sufficient.

    This article could be improved either by making it more concise, or by exploring the subject further. Unfortunately, the first option would render "Please read the FAQ/Help section before posting", which is hardly an article... where the second would render an FAQ/Help section, which is already present and deals with this.

    If something actually needs to be done, the problem has to be identified. The source of the problem, IMHO, seems to be confusion about what is expected in each section. Particularly about what is an article (almost all sections), and what is an MLP.

    Two paragraphs and a link, I would agree, is not an article... it's an MLP (unless the two paragraphs are brilliant and concise, which is possible). Let's rename this "a link and an introduction", so as to not confuse length of exposition with quality of exposition.

    On the other hand, the MLP section seems to receive a lot of posts that consists of the link, with no real meat at all. What is missing is what you call "the angle", the GOOD introduction that explains why you should care about the link.

    Now these are important points if and only if the noise in the system is composed mostly of MLPs being posted as articles, and bare links posted as MLPs.

    This seems to be true (IMHO again), but really, what can Kuro5hin do about it? This is dealt with in the FAQ/Help. It clearly states what an MLP is, what an article is, gives good neutral recommendations on how to write a good article... people are either not reading them in the first place or disregarding them.

    Should it be made more obvious? I don't know. I don't think so, but if you think adding a new question to the FAQ will help, by all means, propose a "What is the difference between MLP and an article?" question. But it will not help unless people read it.

    It's a fact of life that people don't read the manuals, help files, FAQs if they can avoid it. We rely on common sense for most of our activities, and Kuro5hin is not intimidating enough to force the typical reader to look for the manual on how to post things.

    This is a Good Thing. Most people have enough common sense to make a contribution without doing really terrible things.

    There's nothing Kuro5hin can do to solve that that wouldn't be worse than the problem. I haven't seen that many awful articles get through the queues.
    Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2=4, everything else follows...

    Give us original content (5.00 / 6) (#137)
    by swr on Sat May 25, 2002 at 06:11:59 PM EST

    Some of the posts seem to be interpreting the submission as meaning that stories need to be long-winded. Not so!

    Submissions need to have original content. Not necessarily original ideas (nothing new under the sun, after all), but some information. A lot of the stuff I see in the queue lately has little or no information at all, only references to other information.

    If all I want are references there's always Google and Dmoz. For me to vote up a MLP here on K5, I want the person submitting the story to show some evidence of intelligence beyond that of a search engine. For non-MLP stuff, there should be enough material in the submission itself to have a lively discussion even if all of the links were dead (but do include links!).



    This is good. (4.00 / 4) (#138)
    by lazerus on Sat May 25, 2002 at 07:06:46 PM EST

    The quality of stories on K5 lately ranges from the brilliant (medham, localroger, duxup) to asinine. We want to increase the number of the latter while eliminating the former. The only way we can do this is by having an educated reader base. The components of an educated reader base are: (a) Writing intelligent stories, (b) Voting Intelligently and (c) Digesting the Information Gained From Reading Intelligent Articles.

    Uh...did you just say... (5.00 / 4) (#149)
    by Rhinobird on Sun May 26, 2002 at 01:02:39 AM EST

    Did you just say you want more asinine stories and you want to eliminate the brilliant ones?
    "If Mr. Edison had thought more about what he was doing, he wouldn't sweat as much." --Nikola Tesla
    [ Parent ]
    that's what makes the comment great...(n/t) (none / 0) (#163)
    by mami on Sun May 26, 2002 at 03:38:35 PM EST



    [ Parent ]
    Huh? (3.85 / 7) (#140)
    by dogwalker on Sat May 25, 2002 at 08:56:57 PM EST

    This is a flat-out bad story. The fact that it's on the front page indicates that voting on stories is pretty hit or miss, same as voting on anything I guess. So if you're a first-time story poster, keep that in mind. Oh, and read the FAQ, and post well-written, interesting, non-troll stuff. And that's all there is to say about that.


    --
    share and enjoy

    I agree (2.50 / 2) (#144)
    by elzubeir on Sat May 25, 2002 at 10:39:08 PM EST

    This is a horrible FP story. Why the hell is it there? Couldn't this be put elsewhere? I don't visit k5 to read this crap.. this should be in the 'Submit new story' intro or something.. If there were a vote on this I would have voted -99.

    [ Parent ]
    not a bad story persay (none / 0) (#153)
    by nodsmasher on Sun May 26, 2002 at 04:31:34 AM EST

    just a bad fp story, would have made a grade meta section story
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Most people don't realise just how funny cannibalism can actually be.
    -Tatarigami
    [ Parent ]
    Uhm... you're stating the obvious? (2.75 / 4) (#150)
    by Dialup on Sun May 26, 2002 at 03:31:30 AM EST

    The difference between K5 and That Other Site is that K5 generates the VAST majority of its own content.  You don't have to run offsite to find the bright shiny thing mentioned in the blurb that makes the front page.  That's a great thing.  Unlike That Other Site, K5 article posts are almost invariably worth reading and well thought out.  Or they're crap, but they're interesting enough to provoke comment.

    The "look!  SHINY!" with shiny being linked would be a tradition pioneered by That Other Site.  Odds are the sheer amount of shite showing up in the posted stories bin would be from new users that came Here from There and expect it to function the same.  It's like the difference between Windows and Linux.  Windows is fluff, an annoyance, used for entertainment, and at the same time, is built on top of concepts and code created by OTHER companies.  Linux is built by the community, for the community, and reflects the interests of the community, as opposed to Those In Control.  Which is as it should be.  

    K5 is like a coffee house- you have the regulars that come for conversation, and you have the regulars that come for people-watching/reading.  And you have the newbies that don't get it.  Most of them probably won't- and a lot of them are going to annoy the piss out of the regulars.  Obviously- case in point.  The easiest way to deal with an annoying newbie is to ignore them- they're here for conversation after all, and if they don't have anything interesting to say, they'll eventually flush themselves out.

    Newbies don't know that (none / 0) (#155)
    by p3d0 on Sun May 26, 2002 at 11:20:42 AM EST

    Keep in mind that newbies may not know what makes K5 great.  I have only been signed up here for a few weeks, so I didn't know that the two-paragraphs-and-a-link kind of story were bad.  I have mostly refrained from voting on things because I just don't know yet what makes for a good K5 story.

    Suppose K5 gets popular, such that newbies outnumber old-timers.  These newbies will be voting on the stories, and if they don't know why K5 is what it is, then K5 may get watered-down.
    --
    Patrick Doyle
    My comments do not reflect the opinions of my employer.
    [ Parent ]

    hmm (none / 0) (#162)
    by mami on Sun May 26, 2002 at 03:36:54 PM EST

    Keep in mind that newbies may not know what makes K5 great

    Would you really like a site, where someone had to explain to you what makes it great? Seems a bid odd to me...

    [ Parent ]

    It is obvious (none / 0) (#161)
    by aphrael on Sun May 26, 2002 at 02:49:55 PM EST

    only to those of us who've been here for a while. People who just popped in yesterday(tm) haven't had a chance to learn all the social and cultural norms; it's a lot like USENET used to be when every september a new crop of college students would upset the applecarts for a couple of weeks until they learned what to do and what not to do. No difference at all really. :)

    [ Parent ]
    Is there a fiction section (3.50 / 4) (#174)
    by Trollaxor on Mon May 27, 2002 at 05:58:34 AM EST

    to submit to?

    If not, why not?

    you forgot the "grammar" thing... (none / 0) (#175)
    by kipple on Mon May 27, 2002 at 08:47:25 AM EST

    unfortunately, some times certain stories are voted down just because of the grammar. Good thing? Bad thing?

    ...everyone has his own ideas about that.

    [and also many forget that not all kuro5hiners are native English speakers..]
    --- There are two kind of sysadmins: Paranoids and Losers (adapted from D. Bach)

    No need for grammatical perfection. (none / 0) (#177)
    by jolly st nick on Mon May 27, 2002 at 11:00:31 AM EST

    I think the web format is somewhat more informal than dead tree format. Good grammar is important, especially where it affects readability, but an occasionaly minor grammatical gaffe or spelling error is usually not fatal, nor should it be.

    Personally, I would hold back my stories until they were grammatically unimpeachable, except that once they are up for editorial review they are, in a sense published. People are making topical comments from hour 1. The problem is that once this happens, discussion tends to take a somewhat predictable arc. First,there a trickle of comments, usually friendly, then some insightful contributions and questions, then more and more controversy and (although not always uninsightful), and finally a long exponential decay in which the only remaining participants have an axe to grind.

    The problem is that I would like some of the early contributors to still be watching the comments on the article once it is accepted.

    It may be a that a few software changes would be helpful. First of all, running articles through spell and producing a list of unrecognized words would help. Secondly, I think that there needs to be an initial editorial phase in which only selected people who understand they are making editorial comments are invited. These would be chosen in a manner similar to /. moderators -- by a random process weighted towards people with high scoring editorial comments. The difference being as long as the average score of editorial comments posted, weighted towards recent comments, was high, the user would remain.

    [ Parent ]

    some difficulties with that (none / 0) (#180)
    by martingale on Mon May 27, 2002 at 09:42:51 PM EST

    occasionaly minor grammatical gaffe or spelling error is usually not fatal, nor should it be.
    I agree, although if the article is in edit mode and somebody sees the mistake, they should (and usually will) point it out.

    You make a nice interpretation of the story lifecycle but it misses one important point I think. A full rotation of the k5 userbase requires 24 hours, which is sometimes longer than the main activity phase of a story's lifecycle. This means that those people who are in weird timezones (eg Oceania) can either comment before or after the main activity phase. Its obviously prefereable to comment before, when possible, and that means commenting within the voting queue. A day later, when the bulk of comments has been made (on a normal, non controversial story), these weirdlings can read the replies and all the discussions they missed.

    My contention is that if we remove topical comments from the voting queue, it makes it harder for some k5 users (necessarily a minority though) to contribute effectively.

    [ Parent ]

    Damn, and I thought I was just helping... (none / 0) (#189)
    by ScottMcLeod on Thu Aug 08, 2002 at 08:57:54 PM EST

    I thought adding content would help, but my article went down in flames.

    Anyways, if you want to read my site's article about the neat waterproof keyboard that we reviewed, you can find it at: http://backshelf.net/default.asp?dir=reviews/inclose_keyboard/

    ... I guess I misunderstood the idea of "user submission"...

    First time story-posting advice | 189 comments (91 topical, 98 editorial, 0 hidden)
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