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A Community-Edited Guide to K5: One Month Follow-Up

By sebpaquet in Meta
Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 11:32:45 PM EST
Tags: Internet (all tags)

A few dozen fellow community members have heeded last month's call to arms and together have begun endowing kuro5hin with a memory of sorts. In spite of an ambient pessimism level nearing 60%, they have collaboratively built a valuable source of K5-related information that is either absent from or difficult to find on K5.

I'd say the experiment has so far been successful. The site is definitely getting richer and more useful with each week.

Manifestly, the wiki (freely editable website) concept went over pretty well with the K5ers who had an interest in building such a guide.

The hall of fame section was populated progressively over the last month. There seems to be a rough consensus on what the top stories are, as no editing wars are to be reported (yet).

Some of my wildest hopes were fulfilled as ideas poured in and the site structured itself progressively through individual contributions, as all wikis should. (Compare version 1 of the front page to the current version to get an idea.) Some of the new features that were added to the site following its inception include:

As could be expected, the activity on the site diminished somewhat as the initial invitation dropped down on the kuro5hin front page. But even if it were to cease completely, I think we'd already have a nice complement to the site.

So, for those who already knew about it, this is a reminder that the resource exists, is alive and could benefit from your input; and for those who did not, this is an invitation to jump in, even if only to ask about things you always wanted to know about kuro5hin, but were afraid to ask (or didn't know where to ask). If any of you have ideas on how to make the site more useful, don't hesitate to implement or suggest them!

(For those who wondered where the site's name, "Ko4ting", came from, here goes: I was looking for something that would be related to both corrosion and to the idea of "standing the test of time". So I Googled and found the term "corrosion-resistant coating". )


Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure


Best K5 story/series among the following eight
o A Casino Odyssey 39%
o Introduction to Personal Finance 12%
o Why Freedom? 1%
o Matt's Particle Physics column 17%
o Icons of Hate 3%
o Confusingly titled meta story 18%
o Douglas Adams Dies At Age 49 2%
o Beer's Seamy Origins 4%

Votes: 81
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Kuro5hin
o Google
o call to arms
o memory of sorts
o 60%
o wiki
o hall of fame section
o version 1
o story collaborations
o story requests
o topical directory
o ask about things
o suggest
o Also by sebpaquet

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A Community-Edited Guide to K5: One Month Follow-Up | 17 comments (17 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
cavorting (4.66 / 6) (#1)
by tbc on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 03:41:54 PM EST

...For those who wondered where the site's name, "Ko4ting", meant... "corrosion-resistant coating."

I like the pronunciation "kuh-FOUR-ting" better than "coating." :-)

No, seriously!

K-14 (4.00 / 3) (#3)
by Pac on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 05:17:07 PM EST

Sounds like a place where small children and pre-teens can test if their stories would survive the K5 queue "Turing Test".

Evolution doesn't take prisoners

[ Parent ]
The kuro5hin community (4.00 / 4) (#2)
by kisielk on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 05:08:12 PM EST

Having been a Slashdot user for about a year (yeah, yeah, flame away) I recently was turned on to kuro5hin by my friend carbon . I have to say I am extremely happy with my experiences here.

I have found the kuro5hin community a pleasing place to be, not because people here are same-thinking as me, but because the discussions and arguments are much more rational than on other sites. I would just like to thank YOU, the members of this fine community for providing such a stimulating and pleasant forum.

Talk, talk, it's only talk. Arguments, agreements, advice, answers, articulate announcements. It's all just talk."
- Elephant Talk, King Crimson

I don't know (2.25 / 12) (#4)
by medham on Wed Jun 26, 2002 at 06:43:14 PM EST

What kind of neophytes are responsible for this solipsistic wankery, but the site as is has no relevance because of its total lack of medham-content.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.

God (1.31 / 22) (#5)
by E r i c on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 12:35:47 AM EST

The evolution vs creationism quibble has been a particular favorite area of debate for me for about five years now. During this time, I always had a sense of something being wrong - something more fundamental (excuse the pun) than the ideas being discussed. There was something very strange about the creationist argument, and it wasn't until recently that I finally realized what it was.

I've never heard a creationist argument. Never. Not once.

Not one article I've read by a creationist, not one creationist I've spoken with, has ever come forth with an argument in favor of their position; rather, they focus entirely on knocking down evolution. Instead of pro-Creation arguments, they offer only anti-evolution arguments. When we get down to it, the only argument is "I believe in Creationism because evolution is wrong about this, this, and that."

Ladies and gentlemen, I find this to be unacceptable.

The evolution theory - whether or not you agree with it - stands completely on its own and is utterly self-contained; it does not rely on the discredit of another "theory" to be understood.

Creationism, on the other hand, seems to rely soley on "disproving" evolution. It offers no positive arguments for itself, only negative arguments for the opposition.

The concept of evolution is not "Creationism is wrong", so why is the Creationist argument nothing more than "Evolution is wrong"?

After some research online, I was humbled - but not surprised - that I was, of course, not the first person to observe this. I stumbled across this radio debate in 1990 between a Frank Zindler, atheist and former professor of both biology and geology, and Duane Gish, noted Creationist and vice president of the Institute for Creation Science, and moderated by the host of the talk show, Jim Bleikamp. Gish himself was unable to support creationism. A few interesting quotes:

Zindler: Yeah, wait a minute, I'm afraid Dr Gish has strayed off into the wrong debate. ...Instead of defending creationism he tries to attack evolution.

Bleikamp: I must say as the moderator of this program, so far I haven't heard any evidence for defense of creationism. Let's hear it.

And later,

Bleikamp: We'll go to the calls shortly. Duane Gish, I must say twenty-six minutes or so into the program and after repeated invitations to do so, I'm still waiting to hear some kind of a defense of creationism.

That's right. Half an hour of debate, and the vice president of arguably the most prestigious "creation science" institution couldn't construct an argument for his own position.

And so, my challenge to you:

Under the following rules, construct a positive argument in defense of creationism.


1. Construct your argument as positive statements for creationism, not negative statements against evolution.
Science freely admits there are problems with the evolutionary model. This is why there are evolutionary scientists that continue to study the phenomenon.
Off the top of my head, I could write pages about evolution without once saying "and therefore creationism is wrong" (or like-minded phrases), but I won't, because literally hundreds of people more educated than I have done so in the past 100+ years. Can you do the same with creationism?

2. No attacking Charles Darwin.
Many creationists go after Darwin like a drowning man goes after air. Darwin was not the be-all and end-all of evolutionary science. He merely laid out some of the groundwork, and since then, there has been over a century of supporting evidence discovered and literature published, and still the study continues.
Attacking evolution (which creationists shouldn't be doing in the first place) by picking holes in Darwin's ideas is like deciding a building is ugly by standing in the basement.
(Some people are apparently also unaware that Alfred Wallace - on the other side of the planet and fully independant of Darwin - had simultaneously come to the same conclusions of evolution and natural selection.)

3. References to faith are not fair game.
If your listeners are not already convinced, a faith argument is useless. One must already have faith in order for a faith argument to mean anything.

4. It is for you to provide evidence for your argument, not for your listener to disprove it.
A favorite tactic of creationists is to say, "you can't prove I'm wrong, therefore my theory is just as good as yours."
The burden of proof always lies on the postulant, not on the listener. I can make any outlandish claim I like - say, magic invisbile noncorporeal elves that cause rain. Will you accept this as a reasonable alternative to observed facts merely because my claim can't actually be disproven? Do you believe elves exist simply because you can't prove that they don't exist?

That's it. I feel that these criteria are fair - the evolutionary argument has no problem with these, so I don't see that it is asking too much of creationists to adhere to these stipulations as well.

I look forward to seeing the results.

-- "kitten"

I blame my past transgressions on Eminem's music. Reform number five is currently in progress.

hey! (4.00 / 1) (#6)
by boxed on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 03:16:46 AM EST

I don't wanna be a pimp but shouldn't Looking beyond your nose be in the flamewar hall of fame? :P

I haven't read it (none / 0) (#8)
by sebpaquet on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 07:27:02 AM EST

but at first glance it looks like it wouldn't be out of place in the Hall of Flame. Feel free to incorporate it.

By the way, you've obviously been around longer than many of us. I think the site doesn't have enough stories from 2000-early 2001. If you happen to recall a few particularly good stories from that period, it would be nice to have them listed.
Seb's Open Research - Pointers and thoughts on the evolution of knowledge sharing and scholarly communication.
[ Parent ]

well I can't add it (none / 0) (#10)
by boxed on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 08:03:00 AM EST

It's immoral to add your own stories to the hall of fame! But I'll think about what you say about adding stories there yea. Heh, it feels strange when you say that I've "been around longer" than most of you. I mean, I've been around pretty much since k5 came back after the DDoS, but it doesn't feel like that was a long time ago...

[ Parent ]
It's immoral to add your own stories (none / 0) (#13)
by sebpaquet on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 10:10:37 AM EST

to the Hall of Fame, but not to the Hall of Flame. I know 1.5 years doesn't feel like a long time, but in a rapidly growing Internet community it's not negligible! (I wonder what percentage of the pre-DDoS members are still active).
Human beings, doing what they do best, link by link, drip by drip, layer
Parent ]
Active oldbies, Pre-DOS (none / 0) (#17)
by kraant on Fri Jun 28, 2002 at 10:16:00 PM EST

Well I've noticed some old names here and there every now and then so I think, including me probably around 20.

It probably wouldn't be that hard to check with a couple of SQL queries...
"kraant, open source guru" -- tumeric
Never In Our Names...
[ Parent ]

Just Wondering (4.33 / 3) (#7)
by sypher on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 05:03:30 AM EST

Why with the future of K5 almost totally guaranteed, is there a need to have this type of content as a seperate site?

Wouldn't it be more accesible constantly if it was part of the K5 site, then you wouldn't need to have all these circle jerking reminders, and it would be easier for newbies to see some of what they are getting into :)

Just my thoughts, its an excellently put together resource for the site.

I dreamt of it once, now I fear it dreams of me
I'm just about to ask rusty (5.00 / 1) (#9)
by sebpaquet on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 07:50:26 AM EST

if he wants to pick up the wiki. I think it really belongs on kuro5hin.org. I had originally started it out separately because (1) it was quicker, (2) rusty's busy, and (3) it wasn't clear at all whether the project was viable.

Now there's less uncertainty. I believe the wiki has grown enough roots in the community that we can transplant it where it belongs (and I secretly hope its layout will get a facelift in the process).
Seb's Open Research - Pointers and thoughts on the evolution of knowledge sharing and scholarly communication.
[ Parent ]

wiki.kuro5hin.org (5.00 / 1) (#11)
by boxed on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 09:03:59 AM EST

It'd be great with wiki.kuo5hin.org or something and a link on the page. I think that would pretty much be all that it would take to set it up on rustys part. Oh, and you need to disable anonymous edit on the wiki and somehow synchronize the user database with k5.. ouch :P

[ Parent ]
need? (5.00 / 2) (#12)
by sebpaquet on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 10:04:10 AM EST

you need to disable anonymous edit on the wiki and somehow synchronize the user database with k5.. ouch

I don't see a need to disable anonymous edits. I don't know of a wiki that does. Synchronizing user DBs would be desirable but isn't utterly necessary. The wiki's been going along well without that. Contributors have personal pages in the wiki that point to their user account. It's just one more click away, not a big deal.
Seb's Open Research - Pointers and thoughts on the evolution of knowledge sharing and scholarly communication.
[ Parent ]

Could just link to it ffrom K5 (none / 0) (#14)
by sypher on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 10:34:24 AM EST

If it would make rusty's life easier?

I dreamt of it once, now I fear it dreams of me
[ Parent ]
If rusty doesn't pick it up (none / 0) (#15)
by devon on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 12:14:10 PM EST

you might want to give it a PURL.

Call yourself a computer professional? Congratulations. You are responsible for the imminent collapse of civilization.
[ Parent ]
Wow, I'm famous (none / 0) (#16)
by gauntlet on Thu Jun 27, 2002 at 01:42:10 PM EST

I'm still surprised everytime someone links to "Gauntlet's Editorial Guide to Proper Posting". To the person that added it and all the poeple that didn't remove it, thank you.

I'm impressed with the way it works. I strongly agree that it should either be hosted on a k5 domain name, or should be prominently linked to in the help section.

Into Canadian Politics?

A Community-Edited Guide to K5: One Month Follow-Up | 17 comments (17 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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