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RFC: Kuro5hin.net

By rusty in Meta
Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:49:49 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)

For a long time, I've held the domains kuro5hin.com and kuro5hin.net, but haven't done anything with them. Earlier this year at SXSW, Driph and I came up with a pretty nifty Fray inspired plan to use these two domains in the ways their TLDs suggest. Kuro5hin.com, obviously, would be a good place to put a store, to sell K5 stuff. This part is still on hold.

But Kuro5hin.net, we thought, would be a cool place for K5ers to have their own web space. A larger, looser community where people could do their own thing and expand K5 in ways that our fairly rigid structure doesn't really allow. Weblogs, personal sites, things like that. www.kuro5hin.net could serve as a "center," where people could fill in some information about their site, like where they're from and what they're interested in. Then you could easily find other K5ers who lived near you, or liked the same things.

Another common theme for a while is people requesting K5 email addresses. This is a larger idea than just email, but it does include that. Stay tuned, because I have a question about that later on.

Our host, Voxel, is really interested in supporting this thing. They are basically willing to do all the setup, hosting, and support for people to get their own space on kuro5hin.net. Good for them, because it's new business. Good for us, because we get 25-40% of the income.

So we've come up with four possible plans:

  • k5 email alias
    • $29 $24 per year for two aliases
    • you@kuro5hin.net forwards email to your real address

  • k5 email address
    • $49 per year
    • you@kuro5hin.net is a real IMAP + POP3 + Webmail address with a generous 75meg disk allowance

  • k5 basic hosting plan
    • $49 per quarter or $159 per year
    • you@kuro5hin.net is a real IMAP + POP3 + Webmail address
    • webspace and email services at either your own domain or a you.kuro5hin.net subdomain
    • 100megs of space
    • 3gigs of bandwidth per month on the Voxel network
    • 10 real IMAP + POP3 + Webmail addresses at either your own domain or a you.kuro5hin.net subdomain
    • CGI, PHP4 and mySQL services
    • Weblog package installed upon request (we're not sure which ones yet)
    • support via email

  • k5 advanced hosting plan
    • $99 per quarter or $319 per year
    • Premium membership to k5 included
    • you@kuro5hin.net is a real IMAP + POP3 + Webmail address
    • webspace and email services at either your own domain or a you.kuro5hin.net subdomain
    • 600megs of space
    • 10gigs of bandwidth per month on the Voxel network
    • 50 real IMAP + POP3 + Webmail addresses at either your own domain or a you.kuro5hin.net subdomain
    • CGI, PHP4 and mySQL services
    • Weblog package installed upon request (we're not sure which ones yet)
    • telephone and email support

My questions are:

  • Is anyone interested?
  • Is there something we're not offering that would make you interested?
  • Most email address requests have been for kuro5hin.org addresses. Those of you who wanted one, would you still be interested if it was kuro5hin.net instead?
  • Anything else? Ideas? Questions? RFC spells request for comments. :-)


Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure


I would sign up for one of these plans:
o Yes 19%
o No 47%
o I choose to buck your binary dualism and choose the nonsensical third answer! 32%

Votes: 240
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Kuro5hin
o Fray inspired
o Also by rusty

Display: Sort:
RFC: Kuro5hin.net | 224 comments (221 topical, 3 editorial, 0 hidden)
Scoop hosting? (3.33 / 3) (#1)
by enterfornone on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:36:30 PM EST

Is such a thing possible on a virtual server?

efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
Scoop hosting (5.00 / 1) (#4)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:41:03 PM EST

We talked about scoop hosting a while ago, but I think that would probably not be included in any of these plans. Scoop, basically, requires some devoted resources. These accounts are virtual hosting, not dedicated servers.

If there was a ton of demand and Voxel thought it would be economically feasable, they could maybe be convinced to offer scoop hosting as another plan, but I know last time we talked about it, they were uncertain, at best, as to the economic viability of doing it properly.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

xlan.org (5.00 / 2) (#36)
by Delirium on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:11:01 PM EST

Xlan.org does basic Scoop hosting for $200/year, as long as you're willing to use their installed version of scoop rather than your own customized install ($250/year for your own Apache process). So it seems doable (or at least someone claims to be doing it), for not much more than the $150/yr figure quoted in this story.

[ Parent ]
Some people do it. (5.00 / 2) (#11)
by Captain_Tenille on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:45:49 PM EST

Scoop takes a lot of resources, though. A lot more than just simple static page hosting. Also, when you add multiple Scoop sites to a server, things can get bogged down. Scoop.k5 has more info on people willing to do that, though.
/* You are not expected to understand this. */

Man Vs. Nature: The Road to Victory!
[ Parent ]

-1, Buy an ad (4.18 / 11) (#2)
by theboz on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:39:29 PM EST

Sorry, but someone had to say it. If this were another of those Websphere spams or something that would be the response. It seems that you have too much detail and thought put into this to simply be asking if we think it's cool. I think you've already got it figured out and you're just looking for feedback on it now.

It's not a bad idea, but I'd wait and see how many people actually purchase these things. I don't know if the prices are competitive or not so I can't really offer any suggestions on that. The services look decent enough though.

So how will this affect the whole NPO dea?


dea = deal (N/T) (none / 0) (#3)
by theboz on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:39:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Heh (5.00 / 1) (#8)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:44:32 PM EST

Well, I guess that's one way to look at it. I actually do want feedback. It's not a done thing, just basically here's what we're thinking about doing and would it be worth it. But if you think it's too commercial, or like that this would be great and we should just go ahead and do it, go ahead and -1 it.

As for the NPO deal, it shouldn't present any significant problem. We (K5/CMF) won't be devoting any real resources to it, as all the work will be done by Voxel. So provided it doesn't start to look like a massive majority of our income comes from this, it'll be fine.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Makes sense (none / 0) (#19)
by theboz on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:55:30 PM EST

But if you think it's too commercial, or like that this would be great and we should just go ahead and do it, go ahead and -1 it.

I did vote -1 on it, but only so my comment wouldn't seem like I was completely talking out of my ass, even though I was joking in a sense. I do think it's probably a good idea, but I don't know how many people would sign up, and what Voxel would do if it turned out to be not successful enough for them to want to continue it. I also don't fully understand how the k5.net site will be linked to the k5.org site.

All in all it doesn't sound like a bad deal. I've been considering going with Smirks' service but this one may compete with it. One of my main concerns is privacy too. I'd like to have a firstname-lastname.com type site that I could give my relatives outside my immediate family and put my resume on. However, I don't want that information to be tied to K5 in any way. I've bought ads and a subscription here before because I felt that you (Rusty) and the other admins wouldn't abuse that information or sign me up for spam and junkmail. If I were to register with k5.net, I'd want a similar feeling of security about my personal information.

Besides, if I only give my personal info to a limited few individuals, then if it leaks out I can go ahead and do something like this to ruin their lives. :-D I'm joking but I'm sure you know what I mean.

[ Parent ]

nope - sorry (3.87 / 8) (#5)
by semaphore on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:42:10 PM EST

Is anyone interested?

probably, not me though

Is there something we're not offering that would make you interested?

nope, already have all the services i need, thanks

Most email address requests have been for kuro5hin.org addresses. Those of you who wanted one, would you still be interested if it was kuro5hin.net instead?

see previous reply

Anything else? Ideas? Questions? RFC spells request for comments. :-)

don't you have a conflict of interest now with some of your advertisers?

"you want enlightenment? stare into the sun."

Good point on the COI (none / 0) (#179)
by hazehead on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 07:26:08 PM EST

Many of your more popular advertisers are hosting providers... I'd carefully weigh the pros and cons on this one.

[ Parent ]
Definitely interested. (3.50 / 4) (#6)
by aphrael on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:42:55 PM EST

I'd probably go with one of the hosting plans. :) It would save me the trouble of setting up a home linux box for random spam-kill email accounts and web space. :)

Also, you might want to add a plan for secondary DNS service, which is something many DSL providers refuse to provide.

DNS (4.00 / 1) (#16)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:51:05 PM EST

DNS (primary and secondary) is included in all the hosting plans. Unless that's not what you were talking about...

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
slightly different. (5.00 / 1) (#21)
by aphrael on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:57:32 PM EST

If i'm running my own server, connected to the world through some_local_isp, the isp provides primary dns services. it would be nice to be able to pay someone (K5, perhaps), to provide secondary dns (secondary dns via a different node, so that if my isp goes down, dns still returns the correct addr for me). it's a pain in the neck to get that right now.

[ Parent ]
what good does that do? (4.00 / 1) (#35)
by Delirium on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:08:55 PM EST

If the ISP goes down, your site hosted on the same ISP is going to be unreachable anyway, so how does the fact that the hostname still resolves to an (unreachable) IP help things?

[ Parent ]
people get more reasonable error messages. <nt& (4.50 / 2) (#45)
by aphrael on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:15:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Not just his own site (4.00 / 1) (#77)
by NightRain on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:34:25 PM EST

I think he means it's a pain in general, for any use of the Internet at all, not just trying to access his own site. My own ISP loses their DNS servers, but otherwise stays connected from time to time, and in instances like this, a secondary DNS server would be rather useful


Don't vote, it only encourages them!

[ Parent ]
Alternate site resolution, backup MX, etc (none / 0) (#93)
by AndyDeck on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:27:08 PM EST

I've thought about this too, for my own & my family's needs.  Even if my ISP is down, I may have made arrangements for a backup MX host, so that my mail still gets delivered somewhere (some MTAs don't follow the RFCs and drop the message immediately, instead of holding and re-sending, when the target host is unavailable or cannot be resolved).  I may have hostnames configured for servers at locations other than my own ISP, etc.

I'd also be interested in customizable DNS, i.e. being able to edit my own zone file, and in backup MX hosting (see above).  I'd be interested in purchasing these services somewhere even if I was self-hosting on DSL, or had a hosting account with a different provider.

[ Parent ]

Try ZoneEdit (none / 0) (#150)
by Quest171 on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 10:34:55 AM EST

   ZoneEdit will do secondary (or even primary) DNS for you for free on up to five domains. I've been using them for secondary DNS for a while now, and it works just fine for me.

[ Parent ]
You get a cut; who gets the rest? (2.25 / 4) (#7)
by Shren on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:43:47 PM EST

Who is doing the actual admin work and hosting, and why should I not just go to them instead? Do I get a free K5 subscription with every purchase?

answers (5.00 / 1) (#9)
by nopzor on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:45:46 PM EST

Voxel dot Net, my company, is doing the actual admin/support/infra work on this. You wouldn't come to us directly because you would not be able to get this kind of pricing from us directly. Hope this answers your question -rd

[ Parent ]
shit. my questions are answered, and i missed it. (none / 0) (#10)
by Shren on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:45:46 PM EST

Never mind.

[ Parent ]
Voxel (5.00 / 1) (#13)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:49:07 PM EST

Our host, Voxel.net is doing the hosting and admin work. I don't think they even offer services like this to the general public. They tend to focus on larger clients and enterprise customers.

And in the plan description, it points out that a premium K5 membership would be included in the advanced hosting plan.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

yes, as I said... (4.00 / 1) (#23)
by Shren on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:57:59 PM EST

All of my questions were answered in the article. I should have read more carefully. Someone please vote the grandparent comment zero? (Just once, please.) I'd do it but I can't mod my own comments.

[ Parent ]
Eh (5.00 / 1) (#27)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:01:24 PM EST

No, just leave it. Chances are at least 60% of other people will not read the same parts you didn't read. Now your comment will clear it up for them right away. :-)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Fruvous (none / 0) (#17)
by notcarlos on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:51:43 PM EST

I'd really be up for a kuro5hin.net addy. 75m's for $50 a year sounds like a pretty good deal, IMHO. Now, what about:
  1. Large (or no) attachment max sizes? I do graphics work, and hate it when Hotmail/Yahoo/Netscape yank my +1mb files.
  2. Kuro5hin.org subscriptions. Man, that'd make my day.
  3. A puppy. Not every year, just the first time, and no mutts, dammit! I's wantin' me a hound dawg.

He will destroy you like an academic ninja.
-- Rating on Rate My Professors.com
[ Parent ]
your requests (5.00 / 1) (#50)
by nopzor on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:28:38 PM EST

1. There is a per message limit, but it's ridiculously high (I know it's at least 50megs, and probably higher)

2. The higher end plan does include a premium k5 membership

3. Umm ;-)

[ Parent ]

not to sabotage the plan, but... (none / 0) (#214)
by joshsisk on Mon Aug 26, 2002 at 02:25:36 PM EST

I pay $30 for spamcop.net webmail/pop/imap. It works really well, has great spam, filtering and I've never had an attachment bounce for size, and I get some big attachments. It also supports pgp.

$50 seems like a bit much.
logjamming.com : web hosting for weblogs, NOT gay lumberjack porn
[ Parent ]

But... (none / 0) (#221)
by notcarlos on Thu Aug 29, 2002 at 08:20:12 PM EST

What about the dog? Will theyuns gimme one? I's still needin a goodun t'go huntin' wif.

He will destroy you like an academic ninja.
-- Rating on Rate My Professors.com
[ Parent ]
Yes (3.33 / 3) (#12)
by krek on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:47:12 PM EST

Since K5 has gone to non-profit status I can be assured that my new email address would be good and valid for a good long time, this is something that I have wanted since I graduated from university, a stable, permanant email address that is not @yahoo or @hotmail, sweet!

At the very least you would get 50 bucks a year out of me.

So what's wrong with... (4.00 / 2) (#32)
by emag on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:05:06 PM EST

pobox.com (or any of the various domains they offer)?  I've been using them for years to have my email follow me around while at a stable address.  Plus, it ends up being about half the price of the proposed k5.net addresses, for 3 aliases, plus web forwarding.

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --H.L. Mencken
[ Parent ]
How can I be sure (4.00 / 1) (#43)
by krek on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:15:16 PM EST

that they will be around for the forseeable future? They could fold, or be bought out by MSN, or any other of a number 'bad things' that would throw my email world upside-down. With a non-profit I can be pretty sure that they will not be bought out or shut down by one of the evil entities out there. Plus, it is K5, and 75 Meg for a inbox, supasweet!

The other issue is that my workplace imposes a security filter on my web browsing, and almost all mail sites are blocked as 'chat', even yahoo, if K5 offers mail services it will be one of the few email sites that is not blocked for me.

[ Parent ]
You have no assurances (5.00 / 1) (#62)
by emag on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:54:30 PM EST

of anything at all.  But I know LOTS of people who are using pobox, and have for several years.  It doesn't exactly take much infrastructure to keep a mail redirector running, regardless of the traffic on it.  Hell, I could afford to do it on my DSL line  even if I had less than 100 annual subscribers.  Aside from "they've been around for several years already", I don't think it's even POSSIBLE to offer assurances.

In the same vein, though, what's to say your employer won't end up blocking k5.net in the future?  There tends to be a fairly recognizable traffic fingerprint on webmail sites.

Not to mention that there's really no guarantee a non-profit is going to be able to stick around any  better.  Especially when they're new to the marketplace, and entering an area that's already got a lot of players.  Oh, and charging what amounts to 6 times the cost (1 email alias @ $29 vs 3 @ $15).  But, hey, I'm happy with what I'm using, and don't expect you to have to be too.  And likely someday I'll grumble as all the cool kids have k5.net addresses, and I'm stuck with either pobox, or my vanity domain...

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --H.L. Mencken
[ Parent ]

Buy a domain (none / 0) (#110)
by dave114 on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 09:16:37 PM EST

You can buy a domain and get a hosting package for less than the annual price of these k5 aliases. As you own it you should be able to guarantee that it stays around as long as you want it.

[ Parent ]
indeed (none / 0) (#149)
by krek on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 10:30:09 AM EST

I will check this out

[ Parent ]
The real question is... (3.83 / 6) (#14)
by shaggymonkeybuns on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:49:39 PM EST

"Is there something we're not offering that would make you interested?"
Is there anything you're offering that would make us interested? The only thing I'd be remotely interested in is the e-mail alias, but not at $29/year.

Hosting is such a saturated market... if you invest our $30k on hosting, k5 and its contributors are gonna get burned. I don't think hosting is the way to go for k5.

C'mon, can't you be a little more innovative? Isn't that what we pay you for, Rusty? ;)

*shaggymonkeybuns* 8:P
Invest? (4.66 / 3) (#18)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:55:11 PM EST

I'm not investing any money in anything. This is basically branded personal hosting done by Voxel. We're not starting a hosting company to do this or anything. The way I see it is, if anyone signs up for this, then at least 25% of their cost comes in to K5 in exchange for no work on our part. I like those economics.

I'd love to be innovative, though. Got any ideas?

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

but it's not entirely free (4.71 / 7) (#47)
by Delirium on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:21:52 PM EST

In return for a cut of the profits, k5 is allowing voxel.net to market hosting services using the "kuro5hin" name. While that may not be a problem, I'm personally a bit wary of in effect licensing the kuro5hin name to brand everything in sight. A discussion site (dedicated to educational purposes, as the foundation thing says) has a certain type of respectability that a web-hosting company doesn't have. Having an @kuro5hin.org email address currently would be appealing; having a @kuro5hin.[com/net/org] address after k5 turns into a big conglomerate with a dozen branded services wouldn't be nearly as appealing.

In fact, I personally would suggest moving in the opposite direction -- rather than licensing the k5 brand to a general-purpose hosting company that anyone can sign up for, keep it restricted entirely to uses of the community. Towards this end, I'd like to see k5 offer email addresses, but possibly restricted to people who have had at least one story posted on k5 (ensuring that they'll only be used by bona fide community members; with possibly some other criteria to take into account the minority of active community members who never submit stories).

[ Parent ]

I agree ... (4.00 / 1) (#49)
by aphrael on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:28:18 PM EST

In fact, I personally would suggest moving in the opposite direction -- rather than licensing the k5 brand to a general-purpose hosting company that anyone can sign up for, keep it restricted entirely to uses of the community.

I think this is a good idea, and had sort of assumed that that was part of the deal. :)

[ Parent ]

Minority? (none / 0) (#155)
by Greyjack on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 11:43:04 AM EST

with possibly some other criteria to take into account the minority of active community members who never submit stories

I've never once submitted a story, but I consider myself to be at least mildly active.  Are non-submitting K5ers really in the minority 'round here?

Here is my philosophy: Everything changes (the word "everything" has just changed as the word "change" has: it now means "no change") --Ron Padgett

[ Parent ]
re: be a little more innovative (5.00 / 2) (#41)
by enVy on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:14:17 PM EST

C'mon, can't you be a little more innovative? Isn't that what we pay you for, Rusty? ;)

This made me think about Rusty's role at K5. Clearly this is his baby, but this baby is being raised in *our* world. Shouldn't we be throwing new ideas out for him to pick and choose from? Isn't that what a large community is good at? If we leave the innovation to one person then we aren't going to get a lot of it.

<insert germane Cathedral vs Bazar quote here>

It just seems like we, as a community, should be improving the site along with Rusty. We should be more than just critics.

[ Parent ]
sir may i have your email address? (4.80 / 20) (#15)
by turmeric on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:51:01 PM EST

-yes, its turmeric@corrosion dot org .


-i mean korosin

can you repeat that?

-well actually its more like 'kuro-five-hin'

ok one more time, kuro bite him

-no, k u r o 5 h i n

5 the letter spelled out, or 5 the number?

-forget it, i will call you back.

Heh (4.50 / 4) (#24)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:59:38 PM EST

Yes, I forgot to mention that you, like me, can have the wonderful experience of learning to spell kuro5hin faster than you can say it. I usually just say: "Yes, that's are you ess tee why at kay you are oh five aitch eye en dot org."

You get the hang of it eventually. Note that you can use your own domain too, if you want.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Better to say... (4.66 / 3) (#78)
by Erbo on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:36:24 PM EST

"That's Romeo Uniform Sierra Tango Yankee At Kilo Uniform Romeo Oscar Five Hotel India November Dot Org."

No possible confusion there. Oh, you could spell out "org" as "Oscar Romeo Golf" if you want, but that's serious overkill. :-)
Electric Minds - virtual community since 1996. http://www.electricminds.org
[ Parent ]

Having been a 31k in the Army (none / 0) (#146)
by wiredog on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 09:58:15 AM EST

I can read that without thinking about it.

Can't sleep. The clowns will get me.
[ Parent ]
Picky (none / 0) (#151)
by bloat on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 10:45:02 AM EST

Isn't it 'Fiver' rather than 'Five' ?

There are no PanAsian supermarkets down in Hell, so you can't buy Golden Boy peanuts there.
[ Parent ]

Fiver? (none / 0) (#160)
by 87C751 on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 12:11:27 PM EST

I think you've confused it with "Niner".

And if you were a classic AT&T Long Distance Operator, it would be "Fie-yiv".

My ranting place.
[ Parent ]

shell accounts? (2.66 / 3) (#20)
by infinitera on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:55:51 PM EST

Would we have shell access starting with the email address deal (and up, of course)?

shell accounts (3.50 / 2) (#22)
by nopzor on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 03:57:57 PM EST

You would not have a shell account on the email-only services, but you would on the hosting services.


[ Parent ]

grr (3.00 / 2) (#26)
by infinitera on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:00:45 PM EST

That sucks. Another place to use lynx & newsreaders from would be great - and I could justify the 49 bucks to myself better. Heck, wouldn't even need extra space.. just the alloted mail space but for the whole account.

[ Parent ]
we'll see what we can do (5.00 / 2) (#28)
by nopzor on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:02:23 PM EST

I'll get back to you on this. It might be doable, but we do not normally do it.

[ Parent ]
What does it cost? (3.83 / 6) (#25)
by enVy on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:00:26 PM EST

Is web hosting a core competency of K5?

How much would it cost to bring these services online? Would we need to hire more people?

Where does the profit go / who eats the losses?

You may alienate some K5 users by competing with them in the web hosting business.

BTW, I love K5 advertisements. I actually browse through the ads like I was in a mall :)

Answers (4.00 / 1) (#30)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:03:55 PM EST

See here and here.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
good point there (none / 0) (#31)
by infinitera on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:04:05 PM EST

Maybe hosting isn't such a good idea. Dynamic DNS and other such redirection would be nifty, though.

[ Parent ]
Indeed (5.00 / 1) (#71)
by coryking on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:20:05 PM EST

There are a lot of posters here, myself included, who work for web hosting type companies. In fact the company I work for is trying to specialize in blog hosting (we co-locate scoop.kuro5hin.org).

I'm paying kuro5hin for a subscription. Suddenly the site I've followed for years is going steal my market share away by directly competing with me AND I get to pay for the privilege. What a deal! Where do I sign up?

[ Parent ]

Stealing your market share? (4.50 / 2) (#74)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:30:39 PM EST

I don't see that. First of all, we're not offering scoop hosting. Second, these accounts are definitely more expensive than they could be. I mean, Voxel's losing at least 25% of the price right off the top paying us. So by any reasonable measure, you could offer the same services 25% cheaper.

The thing that sets k5.net apart would be the kuro5hin name, which would presumably appeal to people who want to support K5. We can't be stealing that from anyone, because no one else could offer that. It's just not a fungible commodity kind of thing. And finally, specializing in blog hosting is hardly something that you, or we, thought up. There's a ton of companies hosting blogs. We're just one more.

All that said, if I can make it easy for people with blogs, wherever they're hosted, to join in with k5.net I certainly will. And I'm not about to go all Microsoft and demand that no one can play unless you're playing on our field. I mean, as a competitor, we should be your wet dream. We're more expensive and unwilling to use "monopoly" type leverage to compete unfairly. There's not much more I can do than that.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

True (5.00 / 2) (#87)
by coryking on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:14:22 PM EST

And I do understand all of that and I'm not whining.

The biggest thing you've got is the k5 brand behind you - that's about it. For strictly scoop hosting - that's a big deal. For any other kind of hosting - you don't have much of an advantage. Our pricing is less then yours for a basic DB account, so I'm not too worried. You just need to realize that suddenly you are competing with people who post here. I'm not the only guy who works for a hosting type company who reads kuro5hin.

Personally - and this is leaving my bias - I think doing some kind of blog thing is a great idea /w kuro5hin. You should have some kind of pre-packaged blog engine that rides on top of username.kuro5hin.org. Kind of like blogger. Having it tie into kuro5hins diary section would be really bitchin'.

[ Parent ]

Sounds like a good idea (3.00 / 2) (#29)
by ocelotbob on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:03:27 PM EST

While I wouldn't go for the @kuro5hin.org addy - I've got enough addresses to check as it is, thankyouverymuch, I'd definitely look at transferring my domain over to you. Seems to be a lot better deal than what I'm getting currently, even for the basic plan.

Why... in my day, the idea wasn't to have a comfortable sub[missive]...

Why should k5 webhost? and other comments (4.81 / 11) (#33)
by Delirium on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:05:25 PM EST

I guess I'm not understanding the concept. If I wanted a site hosted somewhere, why should I get it done by kuro5hin.net, rather than directly from some hosting service (voxel.net, for example)? Is the entire point of this so I could have a kuro5hin.net email/url? If so (and if people want that) then I suppose it's an okay idea, but I can't think of any other good reasons to get hosted through the k5 hosting service vs. any of the others that exist.

Along those lines, I'd personally like it if the kuro5hin.net "index" thing (where people can fill in info about their sites, etc.) allows any k5er to fill in info about their site, regardless of where it's hosted. Restricting it to sites actually hosted at kuro5hin.net would probably increase sales of the kuro5hin.net hosting service, but at the expense of reducing the options available to the users (and servicing its users rather than making money is the primary goal of a non-profit organization, right?). For example, many of us, being technically-inclined people with decent always-on internet connectivity, like hosting our own sites.

On a pricing note, the hosting prices look reasonable, but the email (both alias and pop3/imap) looks a bit pricy. I'm not sure how much of this is under your control and how much is dictated by voxel's pricing, but aiming for something more like $10-$15/yr and $30-$35/yr respectively seems more in line with prices I've seen elsewhere.

And on a final note, all these ideas are interesting, but I still think the kuro5hin-foundation-thing's main focus should be on kuro5hin.org itself, which is of course its only reason for existing in the first place. I definitely don't want to see k5 turn into some big conglomerate a la OSDN.

Right on (5.00 / 4) (#44)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:15:18 PM EST

If I wanted a site hosted somewhere, why should I get it done by kuro5hin.net, rather than directly from some hosting service (voxel.net, for example)?

You could. Some reasons you might consider k5.net is because (A) you trust K5 not to do shady shit with your personal info, and not to screw you over, (B) Voxel's been hosting us for over a year, and you know they know what they're doing, and (C) because some of the money goes to us instead of all of it going into the host's pocket.

Now those reasons won't appeal to everyone, sure. If they don't appeal to you, you should find hosting that does. That just makes sense.

Along those lines, I'd personally like it if the kuro5hin.net "index" thing (where people can fill in info about their sites, etc.) allows any k5er to fill in info about their site, regardless of where it's hosted.

Yeah, me too. It probably will. I mean, it would be much more valuable for everyone if it did, and it wouldn't be any harder to do.

And on a final note, all these ideas are interesting, but I still think the kuro5hin-foundation-thing's main focus should be on kuro5hin.org itself, which is of course its only reason for existing in the first place. I definitely don't want to see k5 turn into some big conglomerate a la OSDN.

Absolutely. This is actually a really good thing, in that respect, because it's a source of income that we don't have to devote any resources to. All the work is done by Voxel.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Voxel knows what they're doing? (3.50 / 2) (#52)
by roam on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:30:10 PM EST

Doesn't the site get slow most every afternoon? Is that Voxel's fault or Scoop's?  Can Voxel handle more load?

Are they like hamsters?
Specifically, can I tape up a chinchilla, slather him in axle grease, and shove him up my ass? - Patrick Bateman

[ Parent ]
Neither, really. (none / 0) (#53)
by aphrael on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:34:27 PM EST

Although scoop is closer to the truth than voxel. Rusty posted about this yesterday; apparently there are difficulties with indices exceeding available memory, or some such thing.

[ Parent ]
Slowness (4.00 / 1) (#54)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:34:57 PM EST

That's not Voxel's fault at all. We've got a dead machine right now, and the DB box is underpowered. I just posted a coment elsewhere recently describing what was going on with that.

In a year of service, our actual pipe has gone down one time, for about an hour. So we've actually had the mythical 99.99% uptime.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

voxel (none / 0) (#91)
by birdsong on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:22:50 PM EST

The reason Voxel is so good is because they're off of nac.net's backbone. nac.net was my dialup provider for a long time. They had amazing admins that made things work. They even gave me reverse DNS on my dialup connection for my static IP. They offered static IP for a one time charge of $15, and at the time I signed up, 8 more IPs for $15. I only switched because of DSL availability / pricing issues. Their network is really top notch.

[ Parent ]
nac.net (4.00 / 1) (#92)
by nopzor on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:25:32 PM EST

nac is definitely a good backbone, and they are one of three that we are off of. We know them pretty well, and they are one of the few vendors we have where I can talk to the owner if something really fucks up. -rd

[ Parent ]
"K5 brand" services (4.57 / 7) (#34)
by jabber on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:08:50 PM EST

I'd be interested in the email forwarder, possibly even in an actual account. In fact, I think that the forwarding service should be part of membership, so I could get email to jabber@kuro5hin.org bounced to my actual email address, and for an extra fee, I could get mail storage space.

However, taking a step back, and squinting a little, I'm not crazy about the K5 Brand as a concept. It's "typical". It's yet another thing out of the non-profit cookbook, like the "3 free months if you subscribe today". It feels like an off-standish gimick, and I'm turned off by it being some perk available at "an additional level of support" like a PBS sweatshirt.

I suppose my revulsion would be stayed if this was on the .com TLD, but I don't think it belongs on the .net side. I'd rather see that one be dedicated to projects and community activities and such. Possibly the development of things to then move to the .com side once they're done. But on the .net, I'd rather not have to think about money. Just an aesthetics thing.

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"

I agree (5.00 / 1) (#38)
by Delirium on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:13:25 PM EST

I don't really like the whole idea. K5 as a discussion site is a good idea. K5 as a discussion site plus hosting service plus storefront, etc. sounds too much like "sleek sexy leathermans" for comfort. Milking the brand name for all its worth reduces the appeal the name originally had (for me, the main appeal is as a non-commercially-oriented discussion site).

[ Parent ]
eh? (none / 0) (#42)
by infinitera on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:14:40 PM EST

what's wrong with emails and extra community-oriented things?

[ Parent ]
emails for k5 users are fine (5.00 / 2) (#48)
by Delirium on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:24:42 PM EST

But a general-purpose hosting company under the "k5" brand name is a bit more than just offering active k5 users an email address.

[ Parent ]
K5 Brand custom-torn Tux t-shirts! (5.00 / 1) (#55)
by jabber on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:37:54 PM EST

I think that the "K5 Brand" might have some life in it as an idea, but not in the traditional "branding" sense. K5 Brand GPL tools, the results of the Collaborative Media Foundation activities (a'la BSD stuff only dealing with K5's charter), stuff like that, would be a great thing. It would allow building Kuro5hin's reputation, which in turn would drive interest and memberships. But going directly from brand to cash seems "beneath" what we CAN do here.

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"
[ Parent ]

yeah (5.00 / 1) (#56)
by Delirium on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:42:47 PM EST

Putting the k5 "seal of approval" on legitimately useful/educational/etc. things is certainly not a problem at all, as it would build rather than damage its reputation. I'm not sure whether letting the name be used by voxel for hosting services falls into this category or not though (I'd consider it borderline, depending on how it's implemented, but I'm wary).

[ Parent ]
Branding (5.00 / 1) (#61)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:54:07 PM EST

One of the reasons I thought this would be a good thing is because of the expanded-community aspect to it. That is, I want it to be not just a "branded service" but a way for K5ers to find each other outside the borders of www.kuro5hin.org. I don't think restricting the service to existing K5ers is really necessary, since anyone who signs up is sending some money our way, which is nice, but the reason I think it'll be cool is the K5.net "hub" factor.

I'm thinking, right now, that K5.net would be a sort of minimalist Scoop site, where people can simply submit their site in a kind of "announcement" format, as a story. So there'd be a "new sites" column for the latest announcements. And along with that, you'd fill out some info about you and your site, so people could search for sites of interest.

Ideally, it would help people connect in other ways than they can here. It's not all about whoring for cash, really. Only partly. :-)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

directory.. (5.00 / 1) (#39)
by infinitera on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:13:47 PM EST

of user homepages, bookmarks, etc.. Sort of like yahoo's various services, but done right and with like, real user interaction. :) Sounds like a good kuro5hin.net idea to me, but what do I know. :p

[ Parent ]
Not really (3.00 / 3) (#37)
by X-Nc on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:11:55 PM EST

I think this might be good for some people but I don't see a use for it myself. Guess it's 'cause the combination of all the web/email/net stuff I have now and, along with the K5 diary, I'm all set.

Aaahhhh!!!! My K5 subscription expired. Now I can't spell anymore.
How clever (4.37 / 16) (#46)
by Tony Banana on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:16:28 PM EST

You offer us expensive crap, and we are supposed to buy it because it is your expensive crap? No deal, no customers.

You want to be innovative? Here is how to force innovation out of logic using Q&A.

Q: Why would anyone pay above-market prices to own a kuro5hin.net address with absolutely nothing compared to a normal hosting service?

A: No reason.

Q: So how do you make them pay these above-market prices?

A: Offer them something they aren't getting on the current market.

Q: But I'm already offering the kuro5hin name, am I not?

A: That is not enough to justify the cost.

Alrighty Q&A style is not taking me to the point fast enought, so let me tell you what I think.

I think that people would pay for kuro5hin.net if they could have it as a customizeable diary. I know you abhor work, and prefer to sit around all day surfing the web, so here is how to do this without any work for yourself.

  1. Provide a diary feed which can be parsed with PHP. Provide a PHP script that will create the diary structure from the feed. Support PHP on the host.
  2. Let the user be able to query his K5 diary, and in effect make a blog that is actually a K5 diary - and hence has a lot of feedback - but can look as if it has absolutely no relationship to the K5 site if one visits his banana.kuro5hin.net address.
That's value. People would pay for that. If you continue trying to mask money making schemes under tech-bubble-hyperbole speak, inject commercialism into the relationship, and not provide any added value, you will find people starting to resent you. It won't be that people will start leaving K5. The combined voices will just put pressure on you, and make you sad.

Hey (4.83 / 6) (#51)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:30:02 PM EST

That diary feed idea is good. I was trying to think of ways that k5.net perosnal blogs could be tied in with k5.org, which would most likely be related to diaries. That's a good one.

Another thing that would be cool is if k5.net users had a little "blog this" type button when they looked at a story here, which would pop the link, title, and their comments right into their personal blog.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

blog this (4.33 / 3) (#60)
by kennon on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:52:00 PM EST

Maybe even have a browser toolbar plugin button (a la google's IE toolbar), so when you're surfing the web you can just hit the button and add it to your blog, which can be editorialized later.

[ Parent ]
mozilla sidebar (4.00 / 1) (#73)
by phunbalanced on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:23:34 PM EST

Good idea.

This would be easily doable as a mozilla sidebar component as well.

[ Parent ]

on the other hand (3.33 / 3) (#89)
by Delirium on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:19:58 PM EST

The Mozilla sidebar is completely useless, which is why turning it off is the first thing everyone I know does after installing Mozilla.

[ Parent ]
nice (4.66 / 3) (#76)
by jayhawk88 on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:32:16 PM EST

I kind of like the idea of some features like this, and quite honestly it might be enough to push me over the edge in purchasing. Please seriously consider this or something similar.

Why, then, should we grant government the Orwellian capability to listen at will and in real time to our communications across the Web? -- John Ashcroft
[ Parent ]
ditto. (5.00 / 1) (#84)
by ODiV on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:55:01 PM EST

Having odiv.net/log or similar resolve to my diary (or a differently formatted version) would be incredibly cool.

I'd like anonymous posting there though, so maybe you'd have to split the comments. And I'd like the ability to delete comments, post pictures, etc... So maybe it'd be better to have the option of simply pointing to the diary or taking a feed and selecting what you'd like to include (Should the comments be identical? seperate? Should the k5 comments show up on the blog page, but not vice versa?). Could this carry over into movable type?

I'm not really sure how this would work, but it sounds damn cool.

[ odiv.net ]
[ Parent ]
Just for the record: (4.33 / 3) (#81)
by ennui on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:38:25 PM EST

I already mentioned that concept on #scoop, IIRC the dialog was something along the lines of:

<ennui> As a matter of fact, your k5.net personal site should incorporate your k5.org diary somehow, it basically builds a weblog-style thing for you that way.
<@panner> Hm?
<@rusty> I dunno, we're still thinking about it
<ennui> And the k5.net thing should automatically give you a .org subscription, and that @k5 email of some type
<Matt0ly_away> And Captain's mom
<@rusty> heh
<@rusty> must hop on the vespa and ride to the store, I'm out of monocle polish
<@rusty> bbl
* ennui sighs.

"You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone." -- Al Capone
[ Parent ]

My mom wouldn't work too well. (5.00 / 2) (#85)
by Captain_Tenille on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:00:08 PM EST

MattOly's mom, though, would represent much greater savings and profit for Voxel. For only a quarter per K5 user, they could offer her up for unlimited access. They'd make a mint!

The only worry is that their bandwidth bills would get out of control (size of the images and all). Plus, the computer viruses could be a problem. Perhaps they could partner with some of the major backbone providers or something.
/* You are not expected to understand this. */

Man Vs. Nature: The Road to Victory!
[ Parent ]

blog: The verb. (none / 0) (#212)
by delmoi on Mon Aug 26, 2002 at 07:50:56 AM EST

"Blog" as a verb irritates the hell out of me. Blog as a noun is annoying, but not as much as the verb. It sounds like a synonym of "vomit" the verb.
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
[ Parent ]
killing two birds with one stone (5.00 / 1) (#106)
by infinitera on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 08:42:40 PM EST

username.kuro5hin.net would be someone's customized k5 diary, with content equivalent to their k5 diary but formatting, links, colors etc up to them. The cool part would be showing only one (the latest one prolly, with www.kuro5hin.org/user/username/diary still showing all diaries) diary per day on k5.org, but letting people know that more existed on k5.net. A blog hub, yay. Spam reduction, yay.

[ Parent ]
I'm curious... (none / 0) (#224)
by greggish on Sun Sep 15, 2002 at 03:25:37 AM EST

Why does it have to be PHP to do the things you mentioned?  Couldn't that be accomplished with Perl?

[ Parent ]
another idea (2.00 / 3) (#58)
by infinitera on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:47:42 PM EST

A kuro5hin.net VPN (yearly fee of some sort). I have no idea why this would be useful or community-building, but my brain assures me there must be some benefit to it (aside from yet another file-sharing venue).

Well, why not, though (3.50 / 4) (#59)
by mami on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:51:55 PM EST

as soon as you start it and the sysadmin work is done by unknown voxel dot net people, what would be the advantage for K5 sheeps to follow the herd to the K5/voxel hosting services?

Because service is of the essence and usually it works best, if the service is as personal as possible. So, I guess you have to introduce the people, who do the hosting and system admin works to K5 and they have to "feel the heat" of their future customers.  

And when you start with CGI PHP and MySQL services then you can go a step further and offer Interchange hosting as well and spread some jobs to other people who know how to make sites running with whatever you want to run them with.

Introductions (4.00 / 2) (#65)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:01:03 PM EST

I didn't mention it, but nopzor runs Voxel, and dilinger works for them (and incidentally got his job partly through a K5 story). mami, meet nopzor and dilinger, and vice versa. :-)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Nice to meet you, gentlemen (4.00 / 1) (#107)
by mami on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 08:50:12 PM EST

well, I'll scrutinize your diaries to see if you got what is needed to handle "dumb customers". :-)

[ Parent ]
Questions (4.33 / 6) (#63)
by ucblockhead on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:57:09 PM EST

As someone who would potentionally transfer his current domain, I've got some questions:

I'd like to retain "burnap.net" while having "ucblockhead.kuro5hin.net" point to what is currently "www.burnap.net/ucblockhead/". Can I do this with one host account?

I've currently got a subdomain "robodj.burnap.net" pointing to "www.burnap.net/robodj". Will subdomains like this be supported?

If so, what about "robodj.kuro5hin.net"? Do I need a separate account for that? What if I want a "robodj@kuro5hin.net" email alias?

What are the ToS in regards to mp3s, pr0n, mpegs of unreleased films, etc? (just curious.)

Is there a limit to the number of email aliases for my domain?

And finally, a comment: as others have said, some sort of integration between the k5 diary and the personal blog would be a huge incentive.
This is k5. We're all tools - duxup

maybe. (3.50 / 2) (#64)
by /dev/trash on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 04:58:16 PM EST

I am actually looking for webhosting for a venture am starting. I'd need Postgres instead of mySQL though.

Updated 02/20/2004
New Site
Content restrictions? (4.00 / 4) (#66)
by dark on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:08:39 PM EST

Are there any limits on what can be put in the webspace? Can I publish my archive of Spock/Kirk fiction there? (Spock makes a mean dom.)

as long as its legal (3.50 / 2) (#68)
by nopzor on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:09:50 PM EST

it's ok

[ Parent ]
That helps (3.50 / 2) (#115)
by J'raxis on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 10:16:09 PM EST

Legal, where?

— The Raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]
[ Parent ]

answers.google.com (4.00 / 2) (#69)
by mumble on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:10:33 PM EST

Maybe this is from left-field, but how about k5 copy answers.google.com lock, stock and barrel? For more info, visit Answers Help & Tips and Answers FAQ.

stats for a better tomorrow
bitcoin: 1GsfkeggHSqbcVGS3GSJnwaCu6FYwF73fR
"They must know I'm here. The half and half jug is missing" - MDC.
"I've grown weary of googling the solutions to my many problems" - MDC.
Voxel's competence (4.28 / 7) (#70)
by dmd on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:19:11 PM EST

Others have offered their opinion of whether it's a good idea for kuro5hin
to offer a 'branded' reselling of web hosting services; I'm not going to
address that myself.

However, I can speak to Voxel's quality. I've been a client of a number of
hosting providers:

1993-1994: Panix
1994-1996: Agora (Raindrop Labs)
1996-1998: Hurricane Electric
1998-2000: Pair Networks
2000-present: Voxel

Panix and Agora were good for what I wanted from them; I never had any
real problems, but then I never really used them for much besides email
and a place to store a few files.

Hurricane Electric and Pair are in my opinion the Walmart/Targets of the
hosting world. They're fast, they're reasonably reliable, they treat you
as a nameless, faceless customer-unit. I would recommend either of them to
someone with no exceptional needs who doesn't anticipate ever needing
support or special configuration of any kind.

Voxel, by comparison, has time and time again blown my socks off. Their
machines are blazingly fast, their pipes are wide -- they're not in any
way lacking in raw "hosting horsepower". More importantly, though, their
technical ability is unmatched. Voxel staff have written quite a bit of
useful management software which they've contributed to the community. They've always been extremely helpful in working through configuration issues; they respond to support emails generally within minutes; they will work on problems with me on the phone, and treat me as an equal.

Their support people are extraordinary, perhaps because they're not just warm-body "have you tried reinstalling" types -- Voxel support are the people who actually set up their network and machines, so they know exactly how everything fits together.

Voxel isn't as cheap as some other providers, but they're not expensive either, and they're certainly far and away the best hosting provider I've ever encountered, and anyone who chooses to use them either directly or through a provider will not be disappointed.

huh? (none / 0) (#116)
by /dev/trash on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 10:21:51 PM EST

Pair is the Wal-mart of hosting?

Updated 02/20/2004
New Site
[ Parent ]
EXPENSIVE!!! (4.20 / 5) (#72)
by mGee on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:21:43 PM EST

I currently pay $100 per year for 200mb of storage, 25 gigs of transfer, php/mysql, 99 emails at tera-byte.com Your plan is priced way too high, especially for the clients you are targeting. PEace mGee

-1 (2.37 / 8) (#75)
by PresJPolk on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:31:15 PM EST

Use the edit queue next time.

Not geeky enough (4.50 / 4) (#79)
by Freaky on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:36:46 PM EST

No real SQL server?  What about mod_(perl|ruby|python)? Zope? Java?

Do we get SSH access?  Mail filtering?

By colocating a server with a bunch of mates I can get these for somewhere in the region of $100 USD p.a.  I don't want the k5 address; I already have plenty, all of which are easier to pass around than key you arr oh five (digit) heych eye enn dot org, so why should I be interested in this?

Ditto (none / 0) (#161)
by mahlen on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 12:19:23 PM EST

Yeah, no Java? These look like nice values, but the tech is too old school for me.


To many people, their cars are like members of their family.  Some of the most
popular names for cars are:  Betsy, Batmobile, Big Bird, My Love, The Beast,
The War Pig, and Sherman (after the tank).
        --World Almanac, 1993

[ Parent ]

Where are you from? (none / 0) (#211)
by delmoi on Mon Aug 26, 2002 at 07:38:32 AM EST

"key"? "heych"?

I'd say "kay you arr oh five ache aye en dot org". I couldn't figure out what you were trying to say for a while.
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
[ Parent ]
Plans (4.50 / 2) (#80)
by crowbraid on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:37:52 PM EST

I realize that offering a tiered series of plans is easier, but it would be good if the user could 'mix and match' the options. F'instance, I don't need anywhere near the space offered, but I would be interested in limited hosting and email capabilities.

-- Autumn is the time of year that makes me homesick for a place I've never been --

Something missing (4.87 / 8) (#82)
by jeremie on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:48:58 PM EST

Why, a Jabber server of course :) Along with email accounts/aliases, it would be great to have @kuro5hin jabber accounts, and maybe even someday some Scoop integration (notifications, etc).

You read my mind (4.50 / 2) (#96)
by AndyDeck on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:38:12 PM EST

I was just thinking this - it'd be a good add-on, to any of the plans, to offer some level of Jabber service.  You could join Dreamhost as the only providers offering Jabber hosting.  Please do add in SSL support, though.  A large part of my interest in Jabber is tied to my ability to secure it.

There was also a story on Jabber @ Kuro5hin a while back...

[ Parent ]

Kuro5hin-the-community != kuro5hin-the-host (3.50 / 2) (#83)
by hbw on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 05:52:16 PM EST

I'd definitely be interested in buying this all-in-one package if you would provide something like Manila server-side. I want to be able to use all the bleeding-edge blogging features that Dave Winer et al have come up with.

My gut feeling when reading this article was that you're trying to connect a whole slew of stuff onto the k5 community brand. I think it is important that if you make kuro5hin.net-the web host a reality, that k5.org and k5.net are sufficiently standalone. If I buy a weblog at k5.net, I am not sure if that will have anything to do with my k5.org activity.

Overall, I think the "blog this" feature, and the new blogging niche for k5.net would be great. I'm sure a lot of people will buy accounts, but it's very important that k5 the community and k5 the host are separate things; albeit they can co-operate on things.

I have discovered a truly marvelous signature, which unfortunately the margin is not large enough to contain.

Agreed (none / 0) (#144)
by the original jht on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 09:11:00 AM EST

Having Kuro5hin.net be a blog/hosting site would be neat.  I keep my "almost-blog" on /. now, using the free Journals feature and it's nice, but I'd like to turn it into a real blog.  I've considered using Radio for the task, and if you had a Manila/Radio blog hosting setup that cost somewhere in the $5-$10/month range, I'd probably use it.

I agree with the poster who said that a basic K5 e-mail address should be included in the membership price, if only for redirection to your real e-mail.  I wouldn't pay for a full e-mail address, simply because I run my own server.  Otherwise I might be interested.  But I'd say you can use Mac.com as the benchmark as to pricing.  I don't think people have a problem with Mac.com pricing, just with how they did it.
- -Josh Turiel
"Someday we'll all look back at this and laugh..."

[ Parent ]

$29 is way too much for e-mail hosting. (3.83 / 6) (#86)
by gblues on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:05:24 PM EST

For e-mail, look at how much an average domain name is going for on a year-to-year basis and base your pricing around that. Here's why:

For about $100 in one-time costs, plus the cost of a domain name, anyone can run their own e-mail server.

$30 of that is a one-time donation to dyndns.org. This gets you access to their domain redirection (where you get an entire domain instead of just a host off dyndns.org).

The rest covers the cost of a used PC. Unless you are starting a spamhaus, you can get by with a P-133, 32MB of RAM, and a 1.2GB HD.  Pick a Linux distro (I use Debian); set up Postfix, a POP3 daemon, SSH, and the dyndns update daemon; then put the server on your internet connection.

Of course, the costs are only favorable if you have an always-on (or mostly-on) Internet connection used for other purposes. ISP costs generally don't count unless the mail server would be the only use of the Internet connection.

Yahoo! has tried to force users to pay $30/year to get POP3 access. Screw that. Running my own mail server will pay for itself in a year or two.

... although in retrospect, having sex to the news was probably doomed to fail from the get-go. --squinky

$29 is perfectly acceptable for email hosting (5.00 / 1) (#140)
by Rasman on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 07:45:26 AM EST

"Linux is only free if your time has no value."
Sure, you could do it all yourself, but that takes time and knowledge (which equates to time if you need to gain it) about Linux and networking daemons, etc. Most people would gladly pay $29 for a year of email hosting. How many hours did it take you to set that up? Was it worth less than $29 to you? If so, good job, you made the right choice. Personally, I'd rather spend my time doing other things...

Also, I like how you rationalize 3.3 years into "a year or two".

Brave. Daring. Fearless. Clippy - The Clothes Pin Stuntman
[ Parent ]
$29 is acceptable for email hosting (none / 0) (#168)
by Delirium on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 02:58:12 PM EST

But not for a mere email alias. You can get those at about 1000 sites on the internet for $10 or less.

[ Parent ]
A year or two (none / 0) (#172)
by gblues on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 04:49:29 PM EST

For me, it will only be a year until the costs are recuperated. This is because, for me, the Linux firewall had been in place for several years, meaning all I had to do was punch a hole in the DSL router's firewall and set up Postfix.

Aside from that, setting up the server is an indivisible cost.  That is, it can't be broken down to smaller costs, but it only needs to be done once.  On my mail server, I can add a new e-mail address in less than 5 minutes (most of that is lag due to SSH over 56k dialup).

$29 is too much for full-blown e-mail, but it's even more outrageous for e-mail forwarding.  $29 for Rusty to create a one-line .forward file? Gimme a break! Even if it took him a full minute, that would be paying him the equivalent of $1,740/hour.

If we assume a yearly income of $35k, Rusty is actually being paid $12.15 per hour. That means he would be making $29 for $0.25 worth of work.

I don't think so.

... although in retrospect, having sex to the news was probably doomed to fail from the get-go. --squinky
[ Parent ]

another possible service: jabber (4.11 / 9) (#88)
by phunbalanced on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:15:22 PM EST

What about setting up a jabber system? That way people could have user@kuro5hin.net. K5.net jabber users could have that in their posts to facilitate easier communication.

Another variation (4.50 / 6) (#90)
by Skippysaurus on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:20:26 PM EST

How about an upload to make it easy to dump a picture or other file into into the web hosting space and create a link that could be pasted into a story or diary. Many of us have access to some kind of webspace, but it often isn't worth the time to ftp to it just for one picture. A fair number of people don't have access to any kind of webspace, or don't want to use it for this type of thing for some reason (ie. privacy, etc.).

The ability to integrate pictures, words, and other formats is one of the strong points of this whole internet-thingie, why not play it up?

sounds like a BBS ;) [nt] (3.00 / 2) (#97)
by infinitera on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:39:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Link? Integrate? Which one? (5.00 / 1) (#141)
by FlipFlop on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 08:08:42 AM EST

The ability to integrate pictures, words, and other formats is one of the strong points of this whole internet-thingie, why not play it up?

While I have no problem with someone posting a link, <a href="somePicture.jpg">, I'm a bit concerned that you really mean <img src="somePicture.jpg">.

Someone once submitted a proposal to allow pictures in stories and signatures. That proposal rightfully went down in flames. I spoke out against it then, and my top two complaints hold true with your proposal:

I do not want to click on a story only to discover I just downloaded a picture from some unknown web site. Nosey people will plant web bugs in their stories to harvest data.

There are many, many reasons we do not allow authors to edit their stories after they post. Loading images from an outside server would allow authors to change part of their story after people have voted it to the front page and started discussing it.

If you really meant <a href="somePicture.jpg">, you're right, and you can just tuck this comment in the back of your mind until the day someone proposes <img src="somePicture.jpg">.

AdTI - The think tank that didn't
[ Parent ]

Quick query (3.00 / 2) (#94)
by ubu on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:27:25 PM EST

Will the hosting be reliable? You know, the way Kuro5hin's database is.


As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
Added value email (4.40 / 5) (#95)
by Master Of Ninja on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:37:01 PM EST

The price for email seems a bit steep (esp. the forwarding where some places do free). I would make an email service which doesn't trade on the k5 "brand" but is good in its own right.

I would throw in mail forwarding free with a subscription. Like I said places give this away free. Give some spam protection/mail filtering in with this. For the full mail system I would expect a webmail system which is secured. Maybe PGP/GnuPG support (although I don't know if this is feasible). Make all connections to/from the server through SSL so that it guarantees security. Have a vacation system/responders etc. Give people what Yahoo! and Hotmail offer in terms of features (since they do give them free) but better.

What about Dynamic DNS systems? Are they easy to do? You.kuro5hin.net domains with corresponding email addresses seem good.

Also, what about Jabber servers (as was discussed at some point before)? The Jabber system (with security, filtering etc.) would be a good IM system as well as a good bit of open source advocacy. And since you are discussing a collaborative media foundation, wouldn't an IM system be perfect?

Also since you seem to have webspace floating about a web storage system might be an idea to do.

Although some of these systems might take some time to set up, you could eventually offer email/jabber/storage servers pre-configured to rent out to companies/groups with all the experience you have gained. But watch out that offering these services doesn't detract from the aim of k5 itself.

other revenue sources (4.00 / 3) (#98)
by sarunas on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:40:05 PM EST

this is a separate idea from the hostingemail idea proposed in the story.

the community here is knowledgeable, so why not kill two birds with one stone.  kuro5hin could offer 'consulting' services, or something along those lines, where we create some sort of content.  we could do this in the process of having the normal discussions.  say someone (a school maybe?) wants to create a resource for their students.  they could start a for-money thread in some topic, where people do all the typical talking and arguing, but where some of the people can organize things and make a concise summary of the meat of the discussion.  the particle physics articles are a good example.  ol doc smith the physics teacher wants to show his advanced class what's going on out in the real world, so he ponies up 25 bucks or something and if there isn't already a resource available in the database, the story is created and it gets iterated through until it's satisfactory.  

obviously there are problems, but if one can find people who are willing to pay even a little bit for it, you could get some nice things out of it.  maybe make it like a work-for-contract depot, where you have a section of the site to advertize different things.  want a guide for the state of the israeli-palestine conflict? have someone write it up for you. maybe the person writing it would get a free account?  lots of possibilities.

Yeah, definitely (3.50 / 2) (#101)
by xah on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:53:24 PM EST

I definitely agree.


[ Parent ]

well, (3.00 / 1) (#124)
by KaizerWill on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 12:13:17 AM EST

given the chance to put forth content for a school, how many of the usual trolls do you think would resist the urge to post goatse links or some such?

You were there for that...
[ Parent ]
that's why someone cleans it up (none / 0) (#183)
by sarunas on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 09:52:41 PM EST

that's why there'd be someone to clean up the final product, depending on where it's going. normally we don't care when it's just for us, but when someone else wants it, we could invoke a '$$ moderator' or something like that, who moderates the final product to remove redundant posts and all the other cruft.

[ Parent ]
It is really expensive (3.66 / 3) (#99)
by Bob Dog on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:40:41 PM EST

Is the kuro5hin brand worth that much money?  I doubt there will be a huge amount of takers.

Focus on the nonprofit you promised us first (3.66 / 6) (#100)
by dipierro on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 06:51:27 PM EST

Worry about profiting off us second.

Nah, sell Scoop (4.16 / 6) (#102)
by bill_mcgonigle on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 07:20:43 PM EST

It's almost coincidental that WebTechniques has an inside back-cover ad this month from a provider showing how you can make $15000/mo by reselling web services...

But, really, use kuro5hin.net to host lots of little kuro5hin.net's for profit.  That's the power of k5, not the euro-trash that hangs out here. Learn from VA Linux.

Users will still use their own DNS for the systems, so allow that.  k5.net will just be a brand presence.

One question? (3.00 / 1) (#103)
by tiamat on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 08:07:00 PM EST

Where do I pay?

Security? (3.66 / 3) (#104)
by R343L on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 08:27:10 PM EST

How secure are voxel's servers? What kind of logging do they do (ie the crap they would turn over to the cops)? Encrypted access? Just curious, because I'm looking for a more permanent email address...but $49/year is a bit much for nothing beyond what my isp includes. Although a k5 domain is kind of cool. The aliases I probably would definitely do, although I would prefer k5.org over .com or .net

"Like cheese spread over too much cantelope, the people I spoke with liked their shoes." Ctrl-Alt-Del

email stuff (4.50 / 2) (#117)
by dilinger on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 10:33:24 PM EST

As far as logging goes, we keep about a week's worth of client's email backed up (in case of system failure), and normal courier/postfix logs (again, about a week's worth; it varies, though, depending on size and logrotate). We offer IMAP, POP3, and SMTP, all with the choice of ssl access. Relaying is allowed; SMTP AUTH is used. We also have webmail (over https, as well, as desired).

[ Parent ]
Thanks [nt] (none / 0) (#139)
by R343L on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 06:50:54 AM EST

"Like cheese spread over too much cantelope, the people I spoke with liked their shoes." Ctrl-Alt-Del
[ Parent ]
what can you do that's k5-specific? (4.00 / 3) (#105)
by _Quinn on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 08:27:52 PM EST

I like the diary-blog bridge idea; it adds something uniquely k5 to the hosting that you can't (couldn't?) get elsewhere.  You want it set up so that the account's skeleton files include, e.g., blog.php, will Do The Right Thing more-or-less automagically.  Similarly, setting something up to make it easy(ier) to upload to a k5.net account and reference from a k5.org diary/article would be a k5-specific value-add.  How about integration of the k5.net (web)mail account with k5.org?  (Your diary/story/comment has N new comments/replies; reply in this box here.  Or, your story has an hour left in the edit queue, here are the new editorial comments and the story edit box.  Or something. :))

- _Quinn
Reality Maintenance Group, Silver City Construction Co., Ltd.

what's wrong with round numbers? (4.33 / 3) (#108)
by Oh Man on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 08:56:08 PM EST

why not price it at 100 instead of 99, 320 instead of 319 etc...?

its not traditional (none / 0) (#122)
by KaizerWill on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 12:10:49 AM EST

it is traditional for prices to be engineered to trick the less smart among us. 19.95 sounds like less money than 20$, but in reality it really isnt.

Since i think (hope) most of us around here are aware of that, and account for it, why bother. its easy  to stick to established methods of anything, and the numbers are already typed on the page. why bother to change?

You were there for that...
[ Parent ]

*shrug* Not Yet. (4.00 / 3) (#109)
by Farq Q. Fenderson on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 08:58:28 PM EST

I think that kuro5hin.net is a great idea... but I don't think that it's prime. It's just this feeling I have.

Particularly, I think the idea needs some development. Personally, I'd like to see kuro5hin.net become an empowerment of the whole K5 nation idea.

I do not believe that it should be branded hosting, per se, though I do believe that it should provide some of those services in some kinds of ways. Overall, I don't think that a straight-up group of hosting / email / whatever is going to sell to many people. (Though a central Jabber server would almost be enough to sell it to me...)

I think that k5.net should exist primarily to strengthen the community that is Kuro5hin. If it brings in money, that's fine, but the prices are too prohibitive and the services don't offer much to the community as a community. I don't believe that the brand is woth that much.

In short, services that provide more access to the community, or that otherwise strengthen the community should be provided, and there should be some powerful ones (in terms of community) that are cheap and simple.

farq will not be coming back

Do you really think.. (3.33 / 3) (#111)
by mystic on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 09:17:00 PM EST

that anyone is going to shell out $29/yr for an email address? For that matter the same goes to the advanced hosting plan!  

As far as I can reason, there are two main reasons why anyone might be interested in any hosting plan like this:
(*)You are looking for a a decent hosting plan and have more than enough money to spend.
(*)You are ultra loyal to K5 and its world dominance cause.

Only if you satisfy both these criteria, would you want to look at this deal. Seriously, does people out here think that K5 is such an established brand that it can fetch such a price?

It really is easy to loose focus. Do I see it happening here?

Run a lotto... (3.00 / 5) (#112)
by faustus on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 09:32:35 PM EST

Move the servers to Antiqua and run a lottery! It works for every government around the world, why can't it work for K5?

Here is how it would work: K5 would keep enough for you to live on a yacht and smoke mad blunts all day; while every month, allow one lucky chain smoking K5 user, to secure a down payment on a Ford Fiesta.

Too expensive (3.75 / 4) (#113)
by epepke on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 10:01:29 PM EST

I'm afraid that, while this is a great idea, it is just a bit on the pricey side. For example, I get acm.org forwarding with my basic ACM membership, and that is entirely paid for by the discount on the one ACM conference I attend every year (SIGGRAPH), and an ACM mail address is a lot more prestigious than a kuro5hin mail address. I know that you're looking for revenue, but you'd probably make a lot more revenue with lower prices.

The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.--Terry Pratchett

It's sounds OK... (4.00 / 2) (#114)
by Matt Oneiros on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 10:11:45 PM EST

but it'd be really nice if you could provide some lower end hosting plans, like maybe a general image hosting plan for cheap or anything.

I'd totally dig a subdomain at *.kuro5hin.whatever and I'd gladly pay you a fee for it, but unfortunately I have little to no money.

Add in some lower end web hosting services and you've got my money. Otherwise what sets you apart from other hosting providers besides your domain?

Lobstery is not real
signed the cow
when stating that life is merely an illusion
and that what you love is all that's real

Expensive and Lacking Features (4.71 / 7) (#118)
by bodrius on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 10:36:00 PM EST

I like Kuro5hin and everything, but the price seems a bit out of proportion for what is essentially Yet Another Web-Hosting service.

What is unique from this idea that I cannot get from other hosting services? So far, all I can see is the "kuro5hin.net" at the end of my email address...

If I'm looking for a personal hosting solution, this is too expensive and offers too little. Perhaps Voxel provides indeed the best service in the world, but if I'm looking for a serious solution I'll probably consider them directly...

I don't mean that Kuro5hin.net should enter the web-hosting market as yet another competitor. I mean that's how you're presenting this idea, and in that light it doesn't look appealing.

I would expand on the "social center" concept first and make it integral to the other offers. Make the web-hosting an incidental feature, and concentrate on what kuro5hin.net could offer that would be unique in the market.

On another note: if you're offering web-hosting after all as the main service, some features that would make me consider the idea:

- Pre-installed, pre-configured Scoop or Scoop-like system. A little "kuro5hin in a box" in a subdomain of kuro5hin.net should be the basic feature of a kuro5hin-branded hosting service.
  Of course, let the user have complete control to alter/hack/reconfigure/eliminate their application, but providing something for non-techies to jump in and form a web-community in a system that works and they're used to would go a long way.

- Other databases: at least PostgreSQL.
  mySQL is nice for some things, most things actually, but I would never consider a host that only offers that database solution.
   I have been known by some friends to use the neologism "mySQLness" to describe both badly designed databases and code that exists specifically to deal with database limitations.

- Other language solutions: I see no mention of Perl, but I suspect it's just "assumed to be there".
   I would personally need a Servlet/JSP solution, but that's probably not such a common requirement... although at that price, people would expect to have either JSP or ASP.

Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2=4, everything else follows...

It just seems... (4.00 / 1) (#156)
by mercutio on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 11:43:35 AM EST

That Rusty is using the excuse of expanding the K5 "community" to have people buy hosting from him.

[ Parent ]
For love's sake, why? (3.20 / 5) (#119)
by awgsilyari on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 10:42:01 PM EST

Allow me to exercise the <OL> tag:

  1. Kuro5hin always has been a forum for exposing news of a political, technological, or social nature. It is a unique media organization in that it complements peer-reviewed reporting with free, but moderated, public discussion. I can't see how offering email, webhosting, and full-blown domain hosting will do anything to support Kuro5hin as it exists today. Any organization that offered services like these would, in my mind, no longer be Kuro5hin.
  2. Even if you did this, the prices are just too high. It kind of feels like a country club, where the members pay exorbitant dues and thumb their noses at the unwashed masses. And you get a '@kuro5hin.net' email address to announce your membership in this elite group. It just sounds silly to me.
  3. And Rusty, are you sure you want to get yourself into this mess? Sure, you only offer 600 MB of space, but at that rate you'll fill a 120 gig drive with just over 200 users. Then, people will start requesting special plans with gigs of storage. Before you know it, you'll be turning into a full-blown hosting service, and you'll end up running around at 3:00 AM swapping out RAID units and upgrading servers. Is that really how you want to spend your time?
Rusty, if you need more money, I think all you need to do is ask. The community here has already proven that you'll receive whatever it is you need, if you clearly spell out in detail what it is, and why you need it.

The idea of a user-built web community surrounding K5 is appealing, but why can't that community be hosted through traditional services? It just isn't what K5 is all about, and the energy used to implement this sort of plan would be directed away from where it should be placed: developing K5 as a social, intellectual, and political forum.

If you still need me to give $29 a year for that to happen, then you'll get it. Just please explain what you need the money for.

Please direct SPAM to john@neuralnw.com

Are you kidding me? (5.00 / 5) (#120)
by rusty on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 11:29:12 PM EST

You have got to read the article before you criticize. This whole thing is being run by Voxel. This is what they do, all the time. You think I'm going out and buying a bunch of servers and trying to support all this by myself? Jesus, I'm not a total idiot.

So, people sign up (with Voxel) for an account (hosted guess where) and K5 gets a 25% cut. I continue running the site and starting the CMF. And K5 gets a little more income for the future.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Suggestion (4.60 / 5) (#121)
by devon on Thu Aug 22, 2002 at 11:59:32 PM EST

In addition to, or perhaps instead of, making this something that is marketed towards individual k5ers, this could be marketed towards groups of k5ers. There could be socialist.k5.net, conservative.k5.net, libertarian.k5.net, etc. There could also be subdomains based on geography, like cmh.k5.net. (CMH is the airport code for columbus, ohio) The hosting costs could also be spread easily across several people, making these sites more likely to start-up and flourish.

This is also more in line with the whole community building idea. Political subdomains could keep links to books and articles that have been referenced in k5 articles and comments. If the geographic k5 groups ever took/take off, this would be an ideal site for them. Even if they didn't/don't, such a site might still have some use.

Call yourself a computer professional? Congratulations. You are responsible for the imminent collapse of civilization.
K5 Geographic Users' Directory now open on Ko4ting (5.00 / 1) (#147)
by sebpaquet on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 10:02:46 AM EST

Cooked [this http://www2.iro.umontreal.ca/~paquetse/cgi-bin/k4.cgi?K5_Geographic_Users'_Direc tory] up this morning. Use it, it's really really easy to figure out.
Seb's Open Research - Pointers and thoughts on the evolution of knowledge sharing and scholarly communication.
[ Parent ]
Email prices too high (4.00 / 2) (#123)
by nanobug on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 12:12:58 AM EST

While the web hosting services sound reasonable, the email forwarding and pop3 email services are just too high.  $30 a year just for an email alias is way too much.  Maybe $10 a year would be reasonable. Also, $50 a year for a POP3 email address is also too high.  Maybe if you registered more vanity domains and gave people a choice of which one to use this would be attractive, but as it stands, my personal opinion is that this will not attract many people.

Seconded (none / 0) (#127)
by uhoreg on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 01:36:58 AM EST

I agree.  I get a geek.com address for just under $10 per year.  It's a full POP3/forwarding address.  If k5's email price was comparable, I'd switch in a heartbeat, but not for $30/$50 a year.

kuro5hin.net email and web space sounds nice, but it has to be at the right price.

[ Parent ]

Yeah... but you're missing the point! (none / 0) (#143)
by mcherm on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 08:35:07 AM EST

The objective is not to give people kuro5hin.net addresses. The objective is to make money to help support K5. Of course it's going to cost more! You could argue over whether it'll do a better job of earning money if the prices are set a little higher or a little lower, but it's not going to be the same as you could get from some inexpensive provider, 'cause if it were, Rusty/K5 wouldn't be making any profit.

On the other hand, it's probably pretty easy to get a rate which is comparable to or cheaper than the price you can get from providers that AREN'T inexpensive. Verizon, for instance.

-- Michael Chermside
[ Parent ]

I know that's the point (none / 0) (#202)
by uhoreg on Sun Aug 25, 2002 at 06:11:53 PM EST

That's why I said "comparable", not "the same or cheaper." If it was $15/yr for a full POP3/IMAP account (compared to a bit less than $10/yr which I'm paying at another place), I'd switch. Probably even at $20. But $50 is too much. (BTW, yes, I did donate to K5 already.)

I am arguing whether or not it will earn more money if the prices are higher/lower. Just in a somewhat indirect way.

[ Parent ]

Prices (4.00 / 1) (#128)
by rusty on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 02:17:51 AM EST

Voxel says they can do $24.00/yr for two email forwarding aliases. And do note that the real email service is full POP3/IMAP/Webmail, fully SSH/SSL securable and authenticating SMTP service as well. With 75Mb of space too, which is quite a lot. I was also going to ask them, but I bet they'll activate spam assassin if you request it. That's not for sure yet, though, so don't hold me to it.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Not more domain names! (none / 0) (#142)
by 2GooD on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 08:20:48 AM EST

Either people want a kuro5hin.net address or they don't.

[ Parent ]
My thoughts (4.50 / 2) (#125)
by LokiFox on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 12:48:56 AM EST

Let's see...
  1. Others have pointed this out, but I really like the idea K5.net email addresses doubling as Jabber accounts.
  2. A pre-installed Scoop on hosting accounts would be cool, though may not be feasible. I like the idea of being able to use a K5.net account to run a topical mini-K5, though.
  3. The ability to sync K5 diaries with your webspace would be nice. Update your diary here, and the entry shows up on your homepage...
The plans outlined here look pretty reasonable, and you'll probably get my order. I get webspace/email, and I support K5 at the same time. Sounds good.

agree! (none / 0) (#158)
by vinay on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 11:51:37 AM EST

the pre-installed scoop account is what would make it uber-attractive to me. I like the sync between K5 diaries idea too.


[ Parent ]
Note to rusty, (none / 0) (#169)
by dram on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 03:14:51 PM EST

Think of the bug testing possibility if you ran the latest CVS versoin of Scoop for everybody on their webhost. Right now it seems as if the Scoop dev guys are a bit slow in finding bugs, mainly because there are only really about 4 guys and even if they all run Scoop as a full blown site like SoS or whatever it still takes time to find the few bugs that remain in Scoop. (Few bugs since its such a wonder piece of open source code.) If you had so many people running CVS Scoop you could find bugs in no time! Maybe get a copy of bugzilla working for k5.net so people can report their bugs, also this could replace RT on scoop.k5. Just think of the possibilities...


[ Parent ]
fracture! (none / 0) (#175)
by invisiblemonki on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 06:32:06 PM EST

nonono! if everyone has scoop, noone will be able to find information because it will all become to decentralized.  there needs to be some centralization.  the only way that it would work if everyone had scoop is if they all somehow got connected to the "main scoop" board to be searchable by topic. it would be a mess. i equate it to a whole bunch of autocratic baronies in a badly run empire. too much chaos.  if rusty wants to use the k5.net domain for comunity, lets keep comunity and news completely seperate.  
if you want scoop, go download the source and install it yourself, there are cheaper web hosts who will allow it.
Otherwise, i liked your comment.  it would be really cool if we all had scoop! =P

if at first you don't succeed, kill the rightful heir.

[ Parent ]
You wanted comments... you got it! (4.33 / 3) (#126)
by Talez on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 01:00:53 AM EST

The K5 email alias should be free with every premium membership.

$4/month for a decent email account seems to be pretty good value. As a yardstick, an email only account from an ISP over here starts from about $6/month.

The K5 basic hosting plan is, for all accounts, too expensive. I know K5 will get a 25% of whatever cut but If I wanted to pay an extra 6 bucks a month out of my pocket to support K5, I'd get a premium membership and get a decent $10/month hosting account from elsewhere. End result would be K5 getting the same money and I pocket $2/month. You should be aiming for $10/month for the basic hosting to make it more attractive over the "webhosting + premium membership" thingy.

Advanced hosting looks good.

Si in Googlis non est, ergo non est

email fwding (5.00 / 1) (#129)
by rusty on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 02:23:05 AM EST

The K5 email alias should be free with every premium membership.

That's not a bad idea. I'll see if I can work something out with Voxel. Possibly better would be the forwarding address comes with the subscription if you want it. I know probably a lot of people won't need it, so there's no point in having them set it up unless you're going to use it.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

in would still pay for it. (none / 0) (#131)
by techwolf on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 02:29:10 AM EST

Techwolf@kuro5hin.net ....I like the sound of it already.

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]

I like forwarding (none / 0) (#152)
by Wisp on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 11:06:40 AM EST

Friends who run ISP's who are generous with accounts and hosting cause the prices quoted to seem a bit steep to me. I love the idea of forwarding tho' !

[ Parent ]
sign me up for a K5 email address (3.66 / 3) (#130)
by techwolf on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 02:27:34 AM EST

please. and I think in the near future I would like to expand that to the hosting services. I REALLY like the idea and would be willing to pay for it in a second.

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson

two ideas (4.00 / 1) (#132)
by auraslip on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 02:33:58 AM EST

First when rusty asked for ideas to solve the lack of money problem, he said no crazy schemes(selling t-shirts, hats etc. etc.). This sounds like a crazy scheme.

Second I like livejournal's aproach. When you get an account you get a serial #.  To get an account you have to know someone who has an account, and who hasn't let anyone use their serial #. The users who don't know anyone pay a small fee(5/month?). Works well as their are no ads, and the community is still growing. They also use open source software.
But that sounds like a crazy scheme to me.

Heh (4.50 / 2) (#133)
by rusty on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 02:37:45 AM EST

This would be a crazy scheme if I didn't have a very competent hosting company with whom I have a good relationship doing the work. :-)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
bah (4.50 / 2) (#134)
by infinitera on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 02:57:21 AM EST

What is the possible community or collaborative media value of branded hosting? I've read your posts, and I still don't get it.

[ Parent ]
Translation (none / 0) (#154)
by mercutio on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 11:39:30 AM EST

Voxel wants Rusty to make them money or they're outta here.

[ Parent ]
No. (none / 0) (#166)
by rusty on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 02:42:42 PM EST

No, that's not the case.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Huuurry up already (4.66 / 3) (#135)
by kraant on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 02:59:34 AM EST

My mac.com address expires on september and I need a new permanent email address that I can trust.
"kraant, open source guru" -- tumeric
Never In Our Names...
Hosting Fees (3.50 / 2) (#136)
by bryaninnh on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 05:20:06 AM EST

I'm paying less than the proposed $319 / year for a full dedicated linux server w/ 30 GB xfer/month. I have 60 GB of space on it, unlimited email / domains. and whatever software I want installed on it ( root level access ) I don't see any value here. have you considered shopping around for better prices, rather than accepting what your current provider happens to offer?

OT: what hosting provider? (n/t) (none / 0) (#157)
by treetops on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 11:50:16 AM EST

[ Parent ]
rackspace.com (none / 0) (#162)
by bryaninnh on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 12:20:04 PM EST


[ Parent ]
rackspace does not sell servers for 319/yr (nt) (none / 0) (#164)
by nopzor on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 01:51:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
did you mean per month? (none / 0) (#210)
by delmoi on Mon Aug 26, 2002 at 07:06:17 AM EST

The only thing I see on rackspace with specs like what you've provided cost that much a month.
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
[ Parent ]
correction & apology (none / 0) (#218)
by bryaninnh on Tue Aug 27, 2002 at 07:53:13 PM EST

my apologies, I was in fact reading per year as per month ( as someone else pointed out ) sorry for the confusion this caused. I'm used to seeing prices in the monthly range, not the yearly range.

[ Parent ]
Heh (none / 0) (#219)
by rusty on Wed Aug 28, 2002 at 07:07:20 AM EST

I suspected that might be the case. Note that the prices quoted are per quarter (3 months) or per year.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
I voted "No"... (4.00 / 3) (#137)
by Bill Godfrey on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 05:27:42 AM EST

Simply because I personally would not be interested. (I am happy with my ISP for email and web space)

Doesn't make it a bad idea though. I would have loved this sort of thing when I was a poor student and had to beg from the university admins and take the crumbs from freebie web sites.

Sorry... (2.00 / 1) (#138)
by Bill Godfrey on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 05:30:10 AM EST

That comment was incredibly stupid.

[ Parent ]
Loose coupling: A must for K5's survival? (4.66 / 3) (#145)
by sebpaquet on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 09:39:19 AM EST

The more I think about it, the more I think that the rigidity rusty alludes to, and the tight coupling between members that it entails, is going to be a hindrance to the growth of communities like k5 in the long term.

Simply put, I predict that more loosely joined communities will have an edge on tightly coupled ones. Intelligence and freedom need to be at the ends, not at the center. Users, especially those who invest a lot in sharing their ideas online, are going to want to fiddle around with their personal space in ways that are not currently available on k5.

So, from my point of view, this initiative sounds like a good idea for the long term future of k5, although the current proposal seems expensive.
Seb's Open Research - Pointers and thoughts on the evolution of knowledge sharing and scholarly communication.

Tax-deductible? (4.00 / 2) (#148)
by wiredog on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 10:07:31 AM EST

Would the part of the fees that goes to k5 be tax-deductible? Part of the subscription to Smithsonian Magazine is, as is part of the Science subscription, etc.

The paperwork overhead is, I think, gonna get extreme.

Can't sleep. The clowns will get me.

for that, it would indeed be quite paperworkish (none / 0) (#167)
by Delirium on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 02:57:21 PM EST

AFAIK the way those things are calculated is (amount you paid) - (worth of services received) = (tax-deductible donation). The difficulty is coming up with the (worth of services received) number. For example, with fund-raising dinners, this generally includes the cost of food/venue rental/etc., but also includes some allowance for the fact that attending a fund-raising dinner often gives you some clout with the candidate.

In k5's case, this might be hard to come up with. First of all, there's no real way to determine the fair market value of the hosting plans. Prices of hosting plans vary a lot from provider to provider, and voxel.net doesn't offer any comparable hosting plans to the general public, so you can't use their prices as a benchmark. In addition, what's the value of receiving a kuro5hin.net email address, or of having your site located at *.kuro5hin.net? It's obviously not worthless, but it's hard to put a number on.

In the end it'll probably come out simpler to just not write it off your taxes. It's not going to save you much anyway, unless you buy a dozen accounts.

[ Parent ]

Beginning of the End (1.33 / 3) (#153)
by mercutio on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 11:38:06 AM EST

Well looks like Kuro5hin is starting the death spiral.  It always ends up like this.  The owner of the site decides to cash in and the community members get alienated and stop coming.

Mark my words, MARK MY WORDS!!!

Costings (4.00 / 1) (#159)
by djotto on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 12:07:27 PM EST

For a comparison, go take a close look at Yahoo's new email interface. It's very slick, they give away the basic service for free, and the premium services start at $19.99 a year. Can you compete with that?

Yahoo (5.00 / 1) (#165)
by rusty on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 02:42:04 PM EST

Then go look at Yahoo's privacy policy. How much do you trust them?

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Re (5.00 / 1) (#170)
by djotto on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 03:31:45 PM EST

Ah... that's better. Vanilla email is a commodity service now (why sell what others are giving away for free?).

Privacy is a good USP, and some people will pay over the odds for it (https would be great for those checking email at work). But aren't they also going to be the ones who are paranoid enough to run their own email servers?

Ok, that's one reason to go to you and not one of the big players. What else have you got? What's going to differentiate you from Yahoo or Hotmail?

(FWIW, I don't trust Yahoo's privacy policy at all - but then, I won't trust yours, either. You might change it, or you might just be lying. It's not like it has the force of law behind it.)

[ Parent ]

It could have force of law... (none / 0) (#199)
by Inoshiro on Sun Aug 25, 2002 at 04:53:16 AM EST

If we had a nice, written contract. Self-addressed stamped envelope kinda return mail thing wouldn't be too hard to do. You pay us 5$, we send you a contract + carbon + self addressed. Sign, return our copy, and keep the carbon.

[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
It's a lame idea (4.75 / 4) (#163)
by Sloppy on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 01:47:44 PM EST

I won't beat around the bush or be gentle or put "IMHO" in front of everything: This is a lame idea. What you're proposing is just Yet Another hosting service, where K5 gets to skim. I can just as easily go anywhere for hosting, and donate to k5 (or buy ads, or whatever) as I see fit.

Another aspect of this that is slightly worrisome is that it sounds like some kind of strategic marketing partnership with Voxel. I've got nothing against them, really, but I wish you would keep your relationship with them a professional vendor-customer thing, instead of jumping into bed with them this way. The way I see it, it's our job to keep you funded so that the bills get paid, instead of you having to get all smoochy with other companies.

Don't waste k5.net on something this uncreative or lacking in synergy with k5.org. Keep brainstorming; you'll come up with something better. (Wacky idea: Maybe extend the ratings databases for other uses (e.g. collaborative reviews) besides discussion.)
"RSA, 2048, seeks sexy young entropic lover, for several clock cycles of prime passion..."

must not be a business owner. (none / 0) (#173)
by invisiblemonki on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 05:55:45 PM EST

it always amazes me when people post these "jump into bed" or "selling out" comments. i'm pretty sure you don't own a business or understand the costs associated with running one. honestly i think the hosting prices he's offering are too steep, but the idea is solid. maybe something more creative would be good.  SO WHY DON'T YOU SUGGEST IT. make a plea for other k5 members to form a brainstorming network and come up with some ideas for rusty. devote your OWN time.
we've all become spoiled by the idea of moderation.  we can denounce something without being constructive.
the bottom line is, time = money. the reason rusty can spend so much energy making this site great is cause we're paying him and he can afford the time to devote to it. there's nothing wrong with him developing other business interests involving his ideas. at least he's polling us to see if we'll support the idea.

if at first you don't succeed, kill the rightful heir.

[ Parent ]
No is better than nothing (5.00 / 1) (#177)
by Sloppy on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 07:22:48 PM EST

we've all become spoiled by the idea of moderation. we can denounce something without being constructive.
Ya know.. I knew I was doing just that when I wrote that post, which is why I weakly threw in my "wacky idea" in at the end. But even so, I figured that denouncing was better than keeping my mouth shut. I don't like the idea, so I'm gonna say so. Alternatives can come later; is there a hurry to use k5.net for something? Until someone does have a bright idea, we should try to encourage him to conserve.

As for your comment about costs, the last I heard, K5 was on track and doing ok and the fundraiser was a huge success. If there's something we need to know about the costs, then Rusty should tell us and give us a chance to take care of it. He should do that before he jumps into bed and makes sweet sweet love to Voxel, slaking his ravenous lust, abandoning himself to forbidden delights, and pleasuring himself and his lover in seven sinful wa-- uh, what were we talking about?
"RSA, 2048, seeks sexy young entropic lover, for several clock cycles of prime passion..."
[ Parent ]

Lets conserve an infinite resource mmmk? (none / 0) (#181)
by kraant on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 09:25:09 PM EST

Using some subdomains doesn't preclude the domain from being used for other things.

Neither does having people have an email address there.

I need an email address, fairly soon. I'm going to spend money on it anyway, I'd realy like to help out k5.And I like the idea of buying something from someone I can trust.

k5 may be turning into a non-profit, but it is still a business, now I don't know what it's like in your part of the world, but businesses need to make money.

This is a nice simple way of making money. This is good. Mmmmk?
"kraant, open source guru" -- tumeric
Never In Our Names...
[ Parent ]

Bandwidth/space are finite resources [nt] (none / 0) (#187)
by Kalani on Sat Aug 24, 2002 at 02:24:30 AM EST

"Images containing sufficiently large skin-colored groups of possible limbs are reported as potentially containing naked people."
-- [ Parent ]
Irrelevant (none / 0) (#188)
by kraant on Sat Aug 24, 2002 at 03:01:03 AM EST

The bandwidth and space would be paid for by the person using it.

Doing the whole sell emails and space deal isn't stealing resources from other things the CMF could be doing.
"kraant, open source guru" -- tumeric
Never In Our Names...
[ Parent ]

eh? (none / 0) (#189)
by Kalani on Sat Aug 24, 2002 at 03:29:02 AM EST

You said X is an infinite resource, I said that it's really a finite resource. That's all. Was there some other resource you wanted to talk about?

"Images containing sufficiently large skin-colored groups of possible limbs are reported as potentially containing naked people."
-- [ Parent ]
but it's a non-profit (none / 0) (#203)
by Delirium on Sun Aug 25, 2002 at 06:52:22 PM EST

And non-profits don't necessarily need to make money.

Especially not at the expense of their primary goals.

[ Parent ]

yeah, i guess so. (none / 0) (#185)
by invisiblemonki on Sat Aug 24, 2002 at 02:05:33 AM EST

you didn't say anything particularly foul. i just get upset wheni think i hear people yelling "sell out!". my life right now kinda revolves around getting my business plan to work...

if at first you don't succeed, kill the rightful heir.

[ Parent ]
I'd hit it iff: (5.00 / 3) (#171)
by organism on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 04:02:35 PM EST

... it came with scripts for K5 scoop integration, such that people could post and rate comments on my site using their K5 logins.

Or expose the authentication functionality through xml-rpc, so another developer could write the scripts.

Something for people who didn't want to go all the way and build a Scoop site.


Brilliant idea. (none / 0) (#208)
by delmoi on Mon Aug 26, 2002 at 06:45:00 AM EST

That would be really cool...
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
[ Parent ]
too steep. (5.00 / 2) (#174)
by invisiblemonki on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 06:17:50 PM EST

my host (not my isp account but the host i have both my commercial sites on) is only charging 9.95 a month for 150 Mb of space and "unmetered" (allowed to go over 5 gigs/month if infrequent) bandwidth.  plus i get unlimited pop3 and subdomains,  ssh ,php, perl, mysql, blah blah. its phpwebhosting. no, this is not an ad, but it's pretty much the best i've seen for small business (or even a personal site).
this k5 deal looks like it's betting on the k5 name and i don't think this community is really set up like that.  if k5 were an MMORPG it might work (gamers are fanatical like that)...  but even then, the true fans are more likely to build a k5 fan site on thier own domain instead of buying a k5 domain. I think it's just got more snob appeal to put your own blood sweat and tears into a site and say "i'm a bigger fan than you".
As much as i supported your right to have this idea in my reply to an earlier comment, i think it's lacking in market feasability.

MY BRIGHT IDEA: pay the $319 yourself, and get a big hunka space for kuro5hin.net. then just charge people an extra $3 per month on top of their premium subscription rate. this gives them, say, a certian amount of space at www.kuro5hin.net/username. introduce functionality to have forums based on location or interest.  basicaly, make it a comunity site, but KEEP THE COMMUNITY AND SCOOP SEPERATE. otherwise there's no market share.  ps, the email should be completely seperate and much cheaper. i already pay for premium email ($14.95 a year, not from a big name provider) and it works great.

if at first you don't succeed, kill the rightful heir.

re: too steep (none / 0) (#222)
by yamcha666 on Mon Sep 02, 2002 at 11:37:52 PM EST

I noticed that you use phpwebhosting.com for your web host. I used to use them. Till the server kept going offline for a long period of time. And the only excuse I would get was some e-mail saying they were looking into the problem.

From the looks of it, you seem to be happy with them. But if you ever have problems, I say check out glypto.com . Their pricing is pretty much similar to that of PHPWH's, but glypto offers a few more things that PHPWH does not.

Worth a browse. Just my II cents.
You want a .sig, aye?
[ Parent ]

I'd be interested (4.00 / 1) (#176)
by digitalmedievalist on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 06:54:39 PM EST

I'd be interested in the Advanced Hosting option, but I suspect I'd be in the minority. I know I could find cheaper hosting elsewhere, but the thing that appeals to me is the quality of the hosting service (bandwidth, stability) and more importantly, the access to a living breathing person for tech support.

My experience with the three hosts I've used for my very simple needs has been that the tech support folk, when I could reach them, knew less than I do (this should frighten you).

I supposes perl isn't mentioned because it's taken for granted, but I would like perl, particularly mod perl, since my other desiderata, Movable Type depends on mod perl. I think Jabber and Zope would also be good additions, if possible. Also I'd like to be able to use one of the free or cheap standard stats packages to process raw logs. I suppose a variant of the familiar and beloved K5 system itself would be too much work for Rusty et al, but I could use something like that to do pretty interesting things in terms of teaching.

As I said, I suspect that I'm in the minority. It's not so much that I require constant support, but just having someone who knows the local setup who can tell me "you need to use this path," or "this is the stats package you really want," or "Yeah, you've screwed up, but here's how to recover. I'm having a heck of a time finding that.

desiderata? (none / 0) (#207)
by delmoi on Mon Aug 26, 2002 at 06:41:17 AM EST

I think you mean desideratum.
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
[ Parent ]
re: desiderata (none / 0) (#213)
by digitalmedievalist on Mon Aug 26, 2002 at 10:27:13 AM EST

Delmoi writes:

>I think you mean desideratum.

Not at all; remember the paradigm; -us, -a, -um. I desire several things, several of which I enumerate in my post; hence, the use of the plural. See the thrice-blessed American Heritage Dictionary.

[ Parent ]
Nope (none / 0) (#223)
by delmoi on Tue Sep 03, 2002 at 11:43:22 AM EST

I supposes perl isn't mentioned because it's taken for granted, but I would like perl, particularly mod perl, since my other desiderata, Movable Type depends on mod perl. I think Jabber and Zope would also be good additions, if possible.

I suppose the Playstation isn't mentioned because it's taken for granted, but I would like a Playstation, partucularly a modded PS2, since my other favorite games, Gran Tourismo runs on it. I think GTAIII and The Legend of Zelda would be good additions, if possible.
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
[ Parent ]
Movable Type (none / 0) (#217)
by rusty on Mon Aug 26, 2002 at 10:09:50 PM EST

I supposes perl isn't mentioned because it's taken for granted, but I would like perl, particularly mod perl, since my other desiderata, Movable Type depends on mod perl.

Au contraire! Actually, it only requires perl CGI, which is included. Mod_perl probably won't be, since the quality and stability of a mod_perl app can seriously impact Apache, which will likely be running other sites in addition to yours.

Additionally, Voxel's fine support people will install MT for you for free, if you download it and ask them to. MT's bizarre licensing, and the apparent willingness on the part of its owners to turn down business, would seem to require that we can't offer it pre-installed, download it for you, or charge you to support it.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

What about a K5 monthly magazine? (4.33 / 3) (#178)
by munger on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 07:26:07 PM EST

Maybe it's already been suggested, but how about publishing all of the front page stories in a monthly magazine? I know printed material sounds old fashioned, but there's a lot to read at K5, and there's a lot of good writing at K5, but I don't always like to sit at a desk and read a computer screen. I don't always have time to visit the site and get caught up.

I enjoy reading at home in the evening in a comfy chair, couch, or bed. And of course there's always reading K5 in the bathroom, in a vehicle, on a train, on a plane, standing in line, or at the beach.

Since most K5 front page stories are not time-sensitive, I don't think it matters if an article in the magazine is nearly a month old. The one exception could be the MLP category.

Sure, I can print every article and read it later, but there are lot of things on the web that are available for printing, but I still prefer and buy the book or magazine equivalent.

The K5 magazine would be organized by the categories on the website, and maybe there would be a little something extra in the mag, that's not on the website.

If after reading a K5 magazine you don't want to keep it, leave it somewhere for others to read who are might not be familar with the website.

Anyway, I would pay for a monthly K5 magazine.

Maybe not a printed magazine (4.00 / 1) (#182)
by digitalmedievalist on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 09:52:26 PM EST

I can understand the desire to read in hardcopy, particularly designed to be legible hardcopy (I am, after all, a medievalist!) but there's a heck of a lot of work involved in designing, creating and (worst of all) printing and shipping a mag.

Wouldn't it make sense instead to have a feature that converts html to .pdf? or .ps ? You'd then either have something to click that would generate and download a file, or maybe for a fee have the "magazine" emailed to you so you can print it out or read it on your hand held (personally, I wouldn't want large files emailed to me, some people might).

[ Parent ]
Our "best of" would be cool in print. (4.00 / 1) (#194)
by ODiV on Sat Aug 24, 2002 at 02:20:02 PM EST

I'd really like localroger's A Casino Odyssey in print. I'm working now on turning sigwinch's Alphabetica Cyberia into a mockup of a children's book. Would anyone be interested in stuff like this?

If K5 ends up with a store, maybe rusty could let us (those among us who make print versions) sell them there. With a good amount going to k5 of course.

Anyone interested in helping put some of k5's great stuff in print? Do you know a printer? An illustrator? etc.

Also... rusty, would we be able to put the k5 logo on the book somewhere? Maybe with "originally available on..." or something.

[ odiv.net ]
[ Parent ]
Maybe a Best of Annual? (4.00 / 1) (#195)
by digitalmedievalist on Sat Aug 24, 2002 at 03:03:53 PM EST

Now ODiV 's "best of" anthology, that would interest me. Once a year a printed book collecting the "best of." This is the kind of thing that various profesional organzizations and conferences do all the time, so printers are willing to charge reasonable rates, and there are print on demand publishers willing to do the printing/shipping for you, which is a Very Good Idea. Warehousing and shipping is a royal pain.

[ Parent ]
kuro5hin.cx (3.50 / 2) (#180)
by BLU ICE on Fri Aug 23, 2002 at 08:13:06 PM EST

I think k5 needs a site for all of our perverted porn.

"Is the quality of this cocaine satisfactory, Mr. Delorean?"
"As good as gold."

-- I am become Troll, destroyer of threads.
It's like an encyclopedia...sorta: Everything2

dot see ecks (5.00 / 1) (#184)
by rusty on Sat Aug 24, 2002 at 12:36:48 AM EST

My first domain actually was kuro5hin.cx. I got that when the big "free domains at .cx" announcement showed up on Slashdot, back in the day. Ah... good times.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Hi (4.00 / 1) (#186)
by Kalani on Sat Aug 24, 2002 at 02:12:07 AM EST

I'll pay you to fix the bug in scoop that trims the subject lines only after encoding "special characters" (e.g.: " -> " etc). Got a yearly plan for that?

"Images containing sufficiently large skin-colored groups of possible limbs are reported as potentially containing naked people."
-- [ Parent ]
gah, should have used autoformat (5.00 / 2) (#190)
by Kalani on Sat Aug 24, 2002 at 04:08:53 AM EST

(eg: " -> ") should read (eg: " -> &quot;)

So essentially just trim it before doing the HTML encoding step.

"Images containing sufficiently large skin-colored groups of possible limbs are reported as potentially containing naked people."
-- [ Parent ]
The problem, and a fix? This line here is a " (5.00 / 1) (#191)
by rusty on Sat Aug 24, 2002 at 05:02:47 AM EST

That bug isn't a simple ordering thing where we convert quotes and then trim the subject. The problem is that the database field for comment subjects is a fixed size, which means that subjects get truncated to the size of the field. The input textbox is also limited, so normally you'll run out of input before the length at which the DB would cut it off, but occasionally a comment which has a quote right out at the end ends up being converted (thus becoming longer than the db allows) and then truncated in the middle of the final &quot; Which results in that unfortunate bug.

So, the only 100% reliable solution would be to make the subject field 5 times the size of the input text box, which covers all cases up to an including a comment with nothing but quotes for the subject. A perhaps more sane approach would be to make the db field somewhat bigger, like maybe 12 or 24 bytes, to account for a few quotes. But that isn't guaranteed to work all the time.

Anyway, I just altered the subject column to use 74 instead of 50 bytes (Christ that took forever). The subject text input is still capped at 50. So, if the quotes on this subject aren't screwed up, you can consider it probably fixed for most purposes.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Ok (5.00 / 2) (#192)
by rusty on Sat Aug 24, 2002 at 05:04:05 AM EST

Looks pretty much fixed to me. It should now take something like five quotes within the maximum 50 characters to screw it up. And if you're using five quotes in a comment subject, well, knock it off. :-)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
So why not keep the strings from being converted (5.00 / 1) (#193)
by Kalani on Sat Aug 24, 2002 at 06:07:42 AM EST

... before storing them in the database? I suppose that the number of people viewing the site forces you to try to shave off as much extra per-request code as possible.

Anyway, thanks for doing that. It's sort of been a mild annoyance to me ever since I started reading here but I never said anything about it until now.

"Images containing sufficiently large skin-colored groups of possible limbs are reported as potentially containing naked people."
-- [ Parent ]
why use &quot at all? (none / 0) (#206)
by delmoi on Mon Aug 26, 2002 at 06:38:17 AM EST

I mean, HTML works fine with the ascii quote mark. You can escape the characters for use inside perl or SQL code if you need to. You can also convert ascii quotes to &quot; if you really want to for some reason before final presentation.
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
[ Parent ]
General safety (none / 0) (#216)
by rusty on Mon Aug 26, 2002 at 10:06:00 PM EST

Actually, in comment subjects it has little value. The reason we do it is that it's done in a kind of general "make this string safe" method, which strips out or converts anything that could possibly be HTML, javascript, or basically anything but text. It is a useful safety measure for some of the other things that use this method.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
I love the idea... (4.00 / 1) (#196)
by der on Sat Aug 24, 2002 at 05:41:28 PM EST

But honestly, I would get so sick and tired of trying to explain my email addy / homepage URL in meatspace I'd just go get another one anyway.

Who'da thought that 1337-a$$ed '5' would cause a profit loss? :)

scoop? (4.00 / 1) (#197)
by blisspix on Sun Aug 25, 2002 at 12:15:53 AM EST

I see a glaring omission of scoop not being installed on k5 servers. this would surely be a major incentive for other collaborative media groups to sign up with you if it was offered. the main problem that such potential groups have now is shared hosting, you can't install scoop unless you have root access.

the price is far too steep. did you hear the backlash over .MAC? same problem here. I can get POP mail for free so it's not an incentive.

Add scoop, slash the price to a third, and I'd consider it. Otherwise, I'm happy to pay $60 a year for the super-reliable host I already have.

Virtual server hosting for $10/month? Good luck. (4.00 / 1) (#198)
by rusty on Sun Aug 25, 2002 at 12:25:13 AM EST

As you correctly point out, Scoop really requires root access, not to mention some competence with perl and server administration. So I can't figure out how you think offering Scoop hosting for 1/3 the price of the basic virtual hosting we have here could possibly ever work. When you find someone offering full virtual servers for $10 a month, let us know.

We didn't offer Scoop on purpose, because I know what it requires to set up and maintain, and it just isn't for most people. The purpose of this is primarily quality, reliable virtual web space for individuals, and a good full-function email service. It will meet some people's needs, and not others. If you're happy with your current hosting, by all means you should stay with them.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Well... (none / 0) (#205)
by delmoi on Mon Aug 26, 2002 at 06:34:47 AM EST

Couldn't you just setup a scoop install and the "scoop" user password? A few lines of modification could theoreticaly prevent them from running their own perl (by allowing block editing, but not box editing)

Does scoop require root to run and not just install?

Anyway, I ran a pretty successfull scoop site for a long time without knowing anything about PERL.
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
[ Parent ]
Running vs. installing (none / 0) (#215)
by rusty on Mon Aug 26, 2002 at 10:04:17 PM EST

No, you can run Scoop as non-root, but then you will require active support whenever you screw up a box, or need to do anything unusual. Basically, for us to administer multiple scoop installs would cost more than setting up virtual servers, in terms of support needs. Either way we'd be screwed.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
An answer. (3.00 / 1) (#200)
by i on Sun Aug 25, 2002 at 05:47:31 AM EST

Is there something we're not offering that would make you interested?

I would be interested if somebody offered something truly innovative. Like, for instance, a search functionality that goddamn works. How much should I expect to pay for it?

and we have a contradicton according to our assumptions and the factor theorem

Gut feeling: no. (2.50 / 2) (#201)
by Tezcatlipoca on Sun Aug 25, 2002 at 07:55:28 AM EST

it may be marginally amusing to get a kuro5hin.* email address, for which I would be willing to pay very little...

THe rest does not feel right: K5 is about collaborative publishing and loads of discussion mixed with more intimate mussings. Something that mixes with that more naturally would be more interesting. Vanilla webhosting is not attractive at all...

What then?

I don't know! That is why I have a boring job and not an interesting challenge in the post .com era ;-)

"Every duck should aspire to be crispy and aromatic." sleepyhel

just link them them to kuro5hin.org (none / 0) (#204)
by bigsexyjoe on Mon Aug 26, 2002 at 02:27:30 AM EST

It would be best just to link kuro5hin.com and kuro5hin.net to kuro5hin.org. It would help new people find the site and be convienent for oldbies. Diaries and such already give people enough functionality that you can't start charging people for that stuff. It's a pretty loose community anyway.

My idea. (none / 0) (#209)
by delmoi on Mon Aug 26, 2002 at 06:54:37 AM EST

Actually someone proposed this below, but I'd thought about it before... so...

It would be really cool if you set up a system where people could get independent scoop sites 'integrated' with the main K5 world... In other words, set it up so that people who download scoop for their own reasons can accept other K5 users. There are lots of ways to do this; the simplest would be a link to a k5 logon page that would redirect to the original site with a 'validated' flag in the URL or something.

Then, you could setup kuro5hin.net as a free, or for pay system where that's all integrated for you. All you have to do is register and start hacking boxes to get the site to look and act the way you want.

I agree that this proposal is pretty boring. The world is full of hosting providers.

If I were you I'd be looking for ways to expand kuro5hin's readership and technological capacity rather then the revenue stream.

But, that's just me...
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
Elitism... (none / 0) (#220)
by europeanson on Thu Aug 29, 2002 at 04:31:55 PM EST

$24 for some simple email forwarding.
That's elitist. I think there is a market for status symbols like this and there are people who are 1337 enough to pay. Unfortunately I am scum and can't afford it...

-- my other signature is even funnier
RFC: Kuro5hin.net | 224 comments (221 topical, 3 editorial, 0 hidden)
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