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 Abandon all integers, ye who enter here! By nkyad in MetaSat Nov 29, 2003 at 04:15:18 AM EST Tags: Humour (all tags) There has been a lot of talk lately about the comment rating system shortcomings and a new and elusive rise of the trolls. The story rating system and the queues have also been harshly criticized during the on-going Fiction overload (an interesting phenomenon per si, since the queues are winning the Fiction battle - no one of the dozens of Fiction submissions has been posted; actually no Fiction article has been posted since November 19th). In my view, most enhancement proposals fail to capture the users interest because they are far too simple and easy to understand. There is a long standing marketing theorem stating that a consumer's respect for a product or brand is inversely proportional to the consumer's understanding of the said product or brand making and use.

I propose an interim solution to our endless quest for the perfect rating system by reminding you we are not exactly a math illiterate crowd. Most users in Kuroshin had more than enough Math in college to understand basic geometry. Some of us even present credible claims of understanding the mathematics behind quantum physics.

With that in mind and without further delay, I present you the Trigonometric Rating System.

Story rating
• Each user can cast a vote between -2*Pi and 2*Pi - a text field should be used for input and votes above or below the limits are reduced to the limits by measuring the angle they express (12,56 = 2 * (2 * Pi) = 2 * Pi).
• After 36 hours or a threshold number of votes, proportional to the userbase, the voting ends and the article is judged
• Articles with positive sine and cosine values are posted to the front page. Article with a positive cosine and a negative cosine (or the other way around) are posted to section. Articles with both values in the negative quadrant are dumped.
• The system informs the voter of the current article angle before the vote is cast.

Comment Rating

• A comment is also rated by choosing a value between -2Pi and 2Pi. The same rules from the story rating system apply here.
• To order and hide comments the system calculates its tangent (the tangent can be calculated by dividing the angle's sine by its cosine). Ordering is then trivial.
• Since tangents very from negative infinity to positive infinity, hiding comments requires comparison to a threshold. The catch is that the comment hide value can be adjusted in a user by user basis. The administrator can, for instance, make it higher (less negative) for users with more hidden comments.

In conclusion, I would like to point that this is one of an infinite set of rating systems designed to make the "game" more obscure and challenging. If the need arises its complexity can be endlessly augmented and more advanced mathematical and geometrical concepts can be bought into play (hence my previous statement that this solution is interim - in a moving environment, one should never stay still for long).

While automatically excluding the mathematically challenged trolls, the system also presents a novel feature for most normal users, its partial lack of visibility. Security through obscurity is a respected concept in some lazy cryptography circles - behind the proposal here presented is the idea that publishing through obscurity can lead to better results.

I urge the users and the Scoop developers to consider this and other, more obscure, solutions to many non-existing problems that challenge the very survival of the site as we know it.

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 Abandon all integers, ye who enter here! | 75 comments (43 topical, 32 editorial, 4 hidden)
 if you don't understand this story, don't worry (2.75 / 8) (#5) by Dr Michael Hfuhruhurr on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 03:57:38 PM EST

 you are not alone. basically, what he's suggesting is that we use the exact same algorithm we use now, except that we obscure it using nonsense trig shorthand.
 Difference: section/frontpage (fuzzy)or dump/post (none / 0) (#54) by Eight Star on Sat Nov 29, 2003 at 10:01:13 AM EST

 With this, you cast cast a vote away from the direction of the frontpage quadrants, but to maximise this you won't get a say in wether it posts or not. Likewise, you can vote towards the dump or post quadrants, but you won't get to decide wether it make section or not. You can also split your vote by choosing an angle in between. (odd multiples of 45 degrees will give you the strongest overall vote) This is assuming the the method is averaging the vectors, not the just the angles, which would be stupid. An easier way to do this would be to have say, 10 votes you can use to vote post, dump, section, and frontpage, split as you choose. Either way, letting you know the direction that the story is headed is an important part of this idea, because you need to know that to decide what's more important to you. (ie, the story is going to be posted, but I might be able to keep it off the front page) [ Parent ]
 i^2, meta (2.44 / 9) (#10) by b1t r0t on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 04:32:23 PM EST

 No. -- Indymedia: the fanfiction.net of journalism.
 Math jokes (none / 1) (#11) by Dr Michael Hfurhuhurr on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 04:45:10 PM EST

 Funny. Remotely Unbiased News[ Parent ]
 yes [nt] (none / 0) (#75) by busfahrer on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 07:43:19 AM EST

 --GCS d s:+ a19 C++ UL P+>P++ L+>L++ E- W++ N+ o? K? w+>w++ O! M- V? PS+ PE-- Y+ PGP t 5? X+ R(R+) tv b- DI D++ G e h! y [ Parent ]
 I have a better idea (3.00 / 6) (#16) by fae on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 05:13:20 PM EST

 Use a hyperbolic-geometry based rating system instead. Anyway, there are some problems. Why between -2Pi and +2Pi? This is redundant, as the angle -Pi is the same as +Pi. It should be between -Pi and Pi, half-open. Also, how are multiple votes combined? Averaged angle of all votes? -- fae: but an atom in the great mass of humanity
 Hmm (none / 2) (#22) by nkyad on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 09:06:25 PM EST

 Yes, -2Pi = 2 Pi. Nevertheless, when dealing with trigonometric algebra, it is better to consider the full circle (2 Pi radians = 360o). It seems more natural to let people vote using whatever rational number they want, sum this number to the current result and reduce the resulting number to the relevant interval. Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run[ Parent ]
 that could be bad :) (3.00 / 5) (#26) by fae on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 11:26:35 PM EST

 If nobody can see the current angle, the outcome is random. If anybody can see the current angle, then they can simply put the angle wherever they want it. Anybody who voted before wouldn't matter. -- fae: but an atom in the great mass of humanity [ Parent ]
 YHW (3.00 / 4) (#39) by nkyad on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 07:53:21 AM EST

 As the first poster to notice only the last vote is counted you are awarded the simple math abstract award - although abstract and hence uncollectable , this award grants you the right to know you understand simple geometry better than most. :) Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run[ Parent ]
 So... (none / 0) (#51) by vrt3 on Sat Nov 29, 2003 at 07:15:53 AM EST

 Yes, -2Pi = 2 Pi. Nevertheless, when dealing with trigonometric algebra, it is better to consider the full circle (2 Pi radians = 360°) 2 Pi is a full circle, so from -2 Pi to 2 Pi is two full circles. Either from 0 to 2 Pi or from -Pi to Pi is a circle (and lots of other combinations of course). I don't see why you need 720°. When a man wants to murder a tiger, it's called sport; when the tiger wants to murder him it's called ferocity. -- George Bernard Shaw[ Parent ]
 Why 720° (none / 1) (#55) by DGolden on Sat Nov 29, 2003 at 10:09:47 AM EST

 Spin 1/2, obviously... :-) Don't eat yellow snow[ Parent ]
 And to cast the vote (2.75 / 4) (#18) by inerte on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 06:41:51 PM EST

 We should use a pie-menu! -- Bodily exercise, when compulsory, does no harm to the body; but knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind.
 Must be running IE 5.5/Windows. For shame[nt] (none / 1) (#62) by scruffyMark on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 07:06:38 PM EST

 [ Parent ]
 +2.71828183: FP! (3.00 / 7) (#19) by skyknight on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 06:50:36 PM EST

 It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
 Entirely different. (none / 0) (#63) by eann on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 07:30:22 PM EST

 Of course, a logarithmic voting scheme could be interesting. But saying "+e FP" isn't really as much fun as "+π/4 FP". Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men. —MLK \$email =~ s/0/o/; # The K5 cabal is out to get you. [ Parent ]
 I've got some math for ya. (1.33 / 6) (#20) by Motekye on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 07:03:52 PM EST

 What's this story's current rating - 1? The story's new rating. Grrr....
 Right (none / 2) (#36) by l3nz on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 06:24:27 AM EST

 It's a pity that most Fiction gets voted down and is lost. I think the principle of voting is right, still there should be an area of K5 where such stories are archived. I respect the work of the people who wrote the stories and take part in the First Unofficial k5 Fiction Challenge. Popk ToDo lists - yet another web-based ToDo list manager. 100% AJAX free :-)
 This area exists (none / 3) (#38) by nkyad on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 07:46:13 AM EST

 It is called "Diaries". My recently dumped fiction is there. This one will probably end up there too. Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run[ Parent ]
 Fortune's Wheel! (none / 2) (#43) by gzt on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 11:49:53 AM EST

 Though I think you mean either -π to π, though I do admit I like the ability to spin a full turn either clockwise or anticlockwise. I don't think it works so well for comments, though, since their ratings are visible and changeable.
 not enough intrinsic entertainment value (2.90 / 10) (#47) by speek on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 02:03:58 PM EST

 The story voting system should work like that old vibration football game (translated into computer graphics, of course). All those who would vote against the story are allowed to tweak the settings of the defensive players (turn their little dials in the hopes of controlling which way they go (totally futile, of course)), and those who would vote for the story get to tweak the offensive players. At the end of 36 hours, the simulation is run, and if a first down is made, post to section. FP for a touchdown. As an added bonus, it pisses off Euians who don't understand real football. -- al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
 Good idea (3.00 / 5) (#48) by nkyad on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 02:28:51 PM EST

 Nevertheless, being not Euian nor USian, I still find this sad mock-up of a sport you call [American] Football too pityful as far as entertainment goes. Football (the one you call Soccer) has so many more variation and strategy involved, it is not by chance it is the most popular sport in the world. But the general idea is pretty nice. Any kind of online battle simulation would do. Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run[ Parent ]
 ya (3.00 / 3) (#49) by speek on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 10:50:11 PM EST

 Two teams playing capture the flag in Unreal or Doom or whatever would be great too. -- al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees[ Parent ]
 Cricket, my friend.. Cricket (none / 1) (#53) by SharQ on Sat Nov 29, 2003 at 09:26:30 AM EST

 I believe that half the people who play cricket don't understand the sport, let alone everyone else. [ Parent ]
 You see, it's like this: (none / 0) (#65) by wocko on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 03:11:49 AM EST

 You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side that's been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out. Sometimes you get men still in and not out. When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in. There are two men called umpires who stay all out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out. When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game! (from What is Cricket?) [ Parent ]
 Risk (none / 0) (#64) by salsaman on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 01:45:06 AM EST

 How about a Risk simulation ? Each person voting gets to place 3 reinforcements in a country of their choice. There would be 3 types of army: dump, front page and section. After 36 hours, a Risk simulation is played, and whichever side manages world domination first wins.Of course, doubtless the first voters would place their reinforcements in South America or Australasia in order to try to win a complete continent initially. I think this could be taken into consideration by 1) not allowing any voters to see which countries already had reinforcements in them, and 2) allowing units from multiple armies in each country. Units of opposing armies in the same country would randomly attack each other until there is only one army left in each country. After this, the game would follow as standard, with some AI to handle the strategy of each side. [ Parent ]
 better idea (3.00 / 5) (#50) by l33t1 on Sat Nov 29, 2003 at 01:45:28 AM EST

 why not base the voting system on the hexagrams of the I Ching? Shih, for example, could be used to describe site-related news or meta-, or for articles that seem to require no response (announcements, news blurbs, most diary and fiction articles, and anything having to do with Michael Jackson and young children, for example). Kên would also be useful for meta-. Hsü could be used to rate troll addicts (serial trolls? what would be a good term for people who are compelled to troll?) and, my personal favorite metaphor for this site, Sun:Sun symbolizes chastisement or correction, in the form of denial of community support.is this great stuff or what?
 per si? (none / 0) (#56) by sbutler on Sat Nov 29, 2003 at 12:38:37 PM EST

 You mean "per se". It is from latin, and the "e"'s quantity in "se" is long (that is, pronounced like "e" in "they"). "per" means "through", and "se" is a reflexive pronoun which refers back to the subject. Generally translated as "hisself", "herself", or "itself".
 excellent post (none / 2) (#57) by vinayd on Sat Nov 29, 2003 at 02:13:03 PM EST

 this is beautiful: I urge the users and the Scoop developers to consider this and other, more obscure, solutions to many non-existing problems that challenge the very survival of the site as we know it. I actually think we should just adopt this trigonometric method as it can't be any worse, it is nicely arbitrary, and it will add a little character. One can be silent and sit still only when one has bow and arrow: else one chatters and quarrels. - Nietzsche
 hnyuck hnyuck (none / 1) (#58) by tkatchev on Sat Nov 29, 2003 at 07:57:34 PM EST

 I, as a certified geek and a valued member of the community, am extremely proud to show my profound and extensive real-world high-school trigonometry skills. Gimme some cred right now.    -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.
 3.142 (none / 0) (#59) by golrien on Sat Nov 29, 2003 at 08:35:18 PM EST

 Mmmmmmmm, pi.
 Go figure (and some corrections) (none / 0) (#60) by nkyad on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 03:41:54 PM EST

 The voters' mood around here is pretty misterious. As goes a saying from my country, "You never know what will come out of a woman's belly, a judge's head or ballot box". I mean, you may work on a text for a week, painfully revising and rewriting only to have it dumped in an hour or two. You may, on the other hand, have a fast insight, write a quick, poorly revised account between compilations, leave it for a minimum edit time and in the end it gets published. Despite it being humour, two errors should be corrected. As noticed by mr strange, where it reads "Articles with a positive cosine and a negative cosine (or the other way around)" it should read "Articles with a positive cosine and a negative sine (or the other way around)". Second, the description as it stands imply that only the last vote counts, as pointed by fae. The correction should be simple, average the votes after reducing the angle to the circle. Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run
 I am a quantum mechanic (none / 3) (#61) by MichaelCrawford on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 06:45:10 PM EST

 You see, quantum mechanics is very simple. It is all analogous to analytic geometry. Just as the unit X, Y, Z vectors form a basis set that can be used to construct any other vector through linear combination, so do the orthonormal solutions to the Schrodinger equation form a basis set that can be used to compute any particle's wavefunction through linear combination. So, if we consider each K5's member's vote to be a basis vector, then we just recompute the linear combination of the total votes each time a new vote is cast. If we then multiply the resulting value by its complex conjugate, we can post an article to the front page when the resulting probability reaches 1.0, or dump it when the probability reaches zero. Articles in indeterminate quantum states can be posted to section after a time limit has passed. -- Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy
 The Schrodinger story? (none / 0) (#73) by nkyad on Wed Dec 03, 2003 at 03:17:19 PM EST

 That would be the nicest of the systems... :) Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run[ Parent ]
 IQ test (none / 1) (#66) by TheDon on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 10:44:03 AM EST

 Wouldn't requiring voters to answer a skill testing question before voting limit the amount of trigger happy story killers? Use Microsoft's questions from their job aplication form: -How Would You Move Mt. Fuji? -How would you determine the weight of ice in an ice rink? -etc. -------------------------- Memory says, "I did that." Pride replies, "I could not have done that." Eventually, memory yields.--Friedrich Nietzsche
 Only to vote? (none / 1) (#72) by nkyad on Wed Dec 03, 2003 at 03:16:04 PM EST

 What about posting? Doesn't that required an even harder test? Thinking about it, people should submit to a Mensa-like test to make an account in the first place... :))) Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run[ Parent ]
 what if the story is exactly in the middle? (none / 0) (#68) by pauldamer on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 04:19:45 PM EST

 If the angle is indeed averaged(the story is not clear how the votes are agregated) then a problem occurs for mediocre stories. If half the voters vote for section as 3pi/4 and half for section as -1pi/4 then the story goes to the front page with an average of pi/4.
 That's actually a feature... :) nt (none / 0) (#71) by nkyad on Wed Dec 03, 2003 at 03:13:49 PM EST

 Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run[ Parent ]
 Abandon all integers, ye who enter here! | 75 comments (43 topical, 32 editorial, 4 hidden)
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