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[P]
A Proposal for the CMF

By treetops in Meta
Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 12:01:32 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

A simple solution to the "Fiction Question": dump Fiction on K5 and create a new (Scoop-driven) site for it.

After all, Kuro5hin is now part of a "Foundation" - surely we can branch out into a new web site?


I even have a name for this new fiction-only Kuro5hin, one which immediately links it with K5 - Fict5hin.org.

The whole site could be centered around fiction - with sections relating to the various styles (stream of conciousness, epic poem, play, etc) and topics as the genre (sci-fi, erotica, love story, and so forth). The queue would function more as a workshop, and story voting would be revised to focus less on dump/post, and more on constructive criticism. Fundraisers could pay for publishing "Best of" volumes, published on the CMF's boutique press.

Why should the Collaborative Media Foundation support this? Simply because it is a natural offshoot of Kuro5hin, it is highly collaborative, and no one has more experience with Scoop than rusty and company. And it satisfies everyone - those who love the Fiction section, and those who hate it.

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Good idea?
o Yes 71%
o No 16%
o Needs work 12%

Votes: 105
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A Proposal for the CMF | 77 comments (51 topical, 26 editorial, 1 hidden)
It wouldn't work. (2.80 / 5) (#1)
by tkatchev on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 04:40:08 PM EST

99% of the "fiction" posted here is juvenile sci-fi fanfic.

   -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.

Actually.. (none / 3) (#3)
by Kwil on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 04:47:15 PM EST

I believe this is more of a five-9's situation.

Other than that, I agree.

That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze


[ Parent ]
The fiction posted here makes me cry! (none / 2) (#43)
by The Baby Jesus on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 01:52:44 PM EST

Except maybe from CheeseburgerBrown and possibly Rogerborg. And since I'm not sure it's really fiction that they post I start weeping again!

Your sig: Cut me some slack! We didn't have IPv4, much less IPv6, back in those days.

[ Parent ]

WRONG! (2.25 / 4) (#5)
by Kasreyn on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 04:49:07 PM EST

More like 90%. :-P


-Kasreyn


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
[ Parent ]
They Exist - They're Dead (2.84 / 13) (#2)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 04:43:40 PM EST

As others will inevitably point out, there are other Scoop/Slash sites that already cater to this. They are stagnant cesspools of lonely, uncritiqued hackneyed tripe that sits steaming in the abandoned queues.

Could K5's existing traffic be lend to Fiction offshoot? Maybe. But I suspect the Fiction site would slow to a pertrified crawl after the initial momentum wound down.


___
I am from a small, unknown country in the north called Ca-na-da. We are a simple, grease-loving people who enjoy le weekend de ski. Personally, I pref
Fiction section on K5 (2.80 / 10) (#14)
by Bjorniac on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 05:30:11 PM EST

"They are stagnant cesspools of lonely, uncritiqued hackneyed tripe that sits steaming in the abandoned queues."

The difference with the fiction section here is what then? The tripe gets dropped from the queue so no-one can read it?
Freedom for RMG! Join the Jihad...
[ Parent ]

Exactly (nt) (none / 3) (#16)
by Kwil on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 05:51:01 PM EST


That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze


[ Parent ]
sorry, no can do (2.44 / 9) (#4)
by godix on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 04:48:32 PM EST

Fiction supporters have resisted repeated attempts to point out there are other sites around dedicated to fiction. To be fair they are right when they claim those sites suck because they're nothing but feel good circle jerks of crap but then again, that's exactly what they want K5 to be.

Well, at least I shall die as I have lived. Completely surrounded by morons.
- Black Mage
why this won't work/hasn't worked (2.21 / 19) (#6)
by Dr Wily on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 04:55:55 PM EST

The people who submit fiction around here don't want to post to a fiction site, or they surely would be doing that instead.  They post here because they know that people who post fiction on the internet (and so the sorts of people who would populate a fiction site) are just like they are: worthless.

So they post here because they want to force people who aren't quite that worthless to read their trash, or at least wade through it in order to find something decent.  They want to use brute force to legitimize something that is inherently illegitimate, or else they'd be doing it for a living.  They are self-centered brats, and poor writers.

and they smell bad too [n/t] (none / 2) (#24)
by Talez on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 07:49:55 PM EST

I wish I could give your comment more than the pitiful amount of three.

Si in Googlis non est, ergo non est
[ Parent ]
bah (none / 0) (#77)
by ColeH on Sun Dec 07, 2003 at 01:48:42 AM EST

It is too easy to criticize. What have YOU contributed lately?
hmm.. that's what I thought.
Hint: Don't mention other's lack of talent until you have proven your own.

[ Parent ]
No. (2.00 / 9) (#15)
by SIGNOR SPAGHETTI on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 05:31:47 PM EST

I enjoy voting down fiction. Take that away from me and I don't know what I'll do. Probably something drastic.

--
Stop dreaming and finish your spaghetti.

Like what? Throw yourself against a fridge? (nt) (none / 1) (#18)
by Henrietta Pussycat on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 06:06:44 PM EST


Fluffy owns news AND K5
[ Parent ]
Pyramid Termite: (none / 0) (#22)
by SIGNOR SPAGHETTI on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 07:24:50 PM EST

You tell jokes good.

--
Stop dreaming and finish your spaghetti.
[ Parent ]

Haha, busted! (none / 0) (#25)
by skyknight on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 07:50:07 PM EST

Apparently many of you not in the security field are unaware of something called a "timing attack".

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
Fucking A. I'm in. (3.00 / 5) (#17)
by Imperfect on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 06:05:27 PM EST

I like it, AND Fict5hin is a rockin' name.

Not perfect, not quite.
The CMF? What's that? (2.20 / 5) (#19)
by My Other Account Is A Hulver on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 06:14:04 PM EST

Sure, I'm trolling, but that doesn't mean that it's not a valid question.

You need to explain what the CMF is, or more precisely, what it was supposed to be back when rusty needed to raise some money fast.

I believe drduck is a genuine account, and I don't delete him because I'm a hypocrite. - rusty

Yeah (none / 0) (#44)
by nkyad on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 03:05:19 PM EST

Being mildly involved with Zope, the very first thing my mind associates with the "CMF" TLA is Zope's own Content Management Framework.

Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run


[ Parent ]
Way ahead of you (none / 0) (#26)
by MattOly on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 09:01:26 PM EST

And it's too bad you had to follow. I was hoping I could kill the trail. But yessir, I agree.

====
A final note to...the Republican party. You do not want to get into a fight with David Letterman. ...He's simply more believable than you are.

Go right ahead. (2.76 / 13) (#27)
by janra on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 09:02:31 PM EST

I'm serious. Set up a scoop site exactly as you describe. Start promoting it. Get people to come and post stories. Link to it all over the place, advertise it on k5. Apply to the CMF when it starts taking applications.

Don't just say "somebody should do this" - do it. The CMF doesn't start sites, it supports sites that are running, which have applied for membership, and which it approves of. But without the first step, the other two will never happen.
--
Discuss the art and craft of writing
That's the problem with world domination... Nobody is willing to wait for it anymore, work slowly towards it, drink more and enjoy the ride more.

Huh, so what's the pont, then? (none / 2) (#46)
by dipierro on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 04:01:50 PM EST

The CMF doesn't start sites, it supports sites that are running, which have applied for membership, and which it approves of.

Huh? So what's the point of it then. If a site is already running, why does it need the CMF?



[ Parent ]
for support, and to take it further (none / 1) (#48)
by janra on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 04:53:51 PM EST

There exist sites that have folded due to a lack of resources on the part of the founder. Sad, but true, considering how many sites die even though the founder is willing and able to keep them going.

They're not looking for wildly successful sites, but they want more than just ideas that sound good. They want sites that have somebody dedicated behind it, or good ideas with a solid plan and a dedicated founder who just needs some help with resources, not to provide that dedication themselves simply because they were asked to.

Make the site, get it started, and if the CMF supports it, it doesn't have to shut down just because the founder can't afford the bandwidth bills anymore, it can keep growing and offering more to its users, instead.

(Of course, the CMF isn't yet in a position to accept applications for membership; when it is, the CMF website will have details on exactly what they expect in order to consider a site for membership.)
--
Discuss the art and craft of writing
That's the problem with world domination... Nobody is willing to wait for it anymore, work slowly towards it, drink more and enjoy the ride more.
[ Parent ]

I dunno (none / 0) (#49)
by dipierro on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 05:57:08 PM EST

If the site's been up for a while, and has a bunch of users, yet it can't sustain itself financially, the CMF isn't going to be able to do anything.

I dunno, the whole idea of the CMF is starting to sound worse and worse. When the idea was to turn K5 into a nonprofit, that was great. But I just listened to the conference call, and they're talking about charging $20/year for membership, which rusty says will basically cover admistrative overhead. The CMF will be lucky if it can afford to run K5, forget about funding other projects which can sustain themselves.

I don't think the CMF is going to want to be home to dying websites that no one else is willing to take over. And founders aren't going to be willing to give their projects to the CMF unless they have no other choice. K5 members will make up the vast majority of the voting membership, so it's not like some no name founder of a dying website is going to make it onto the board.

Make the site, get it started, and if the CMF supports it, it doesn't have to shut down just because the founder can't afford the bandwidth bills anymore, it can keep growing and offering more to its users, instead.

Bandwidth bills are nothing. Any project which can't make enough to pay for the bandwidth is not worth the CMF supporting.

(Of course, the CMF isn't yet in a position to accept applications for membership; when it is, the CMF website will have details on exactly what they expect in order to consider a site for membership.)

If you listen to the conference call, you'll hear that one of the criteria for assimilation is going to be that the site is self-sustaining financially.



[ Parent ]
the conference call (none / 0) (#57)
by janra on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 02:16:01 PM EST

I did listen (live) and I wondered about that. Because in the CMF "narrative of activities", the Collaborative Media Foundation (CMF) will provide technical, financial, and legal assistance to selected projects (emphasis mine).

Bandwidth bills are nothing.

Where are you getting this free bandwidth? Because I want some!

I'd also like to point out that k5 doesn't make enough to pay for its bandwidth - it lucked out and got hosting and bandwidth donated. Very, very few sites are that lucky, even among those few sites that actually have successfully built a community. For a small site (like my own), yeah, bandwidth bills are nothing because I don't go over the bandwidth "included" in my package. But a popular site can very easily do so, and it adds up really fast.

Now, you may think that k5 isn't "worth the CMF supporting", and you're probably not alone in that, but the CMF board seems to think otherwise :-)
--
Discuss the art and craft of writing
That's the problem with world domination... Nobody is willing to wait for it anymore, work slowly towards it, drink more and enjoy the ride more.
[ Parent ]

re (none / 0) (#62)
by dipierro on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 04:02:41 PM EST

I did listen (live) and I wondered about that. Because in the CMF "narrative of activities", the Collaborative Media Foundation (CMF) will provide technical, financial, and legal assistance to selected projects (emphasis mine).

The way I heard it, it was more a requirement that you show that you can get to financial self-sustainability, not that you've already achieved it. But I also took it to mean that these proposals were more for prototypical sites, not live sites with lots of users. Surely those sites would be admitted, but it sounds like an odd exit strategy. I guess for someone who started out a site with profit motivation but it turned out to be useless to that goal it would make sense to just take the tax deduction and donate your site to the CMF. But anyone who starts out without profit as the main motivator, and then builds their site up to something with a large userbase, I don't see why they'd then give up control of their site and let the CMF take over.

Where are you getting this free bandwidth?

There are lots of hosting providers which don't charge for bandwidth. But I think it's clear that when I said "nothing" I meant "insignificant."

I'd also like to point out that k5 doesn't make enough to pay for its bandwidth - it lucked out and got hosting and bandwidth donated.

Huh? How much bandwidth does K5 use? Surely they make way more than enough to pay for their bandwidth.

Very, very few sites are that lucky, even among those few sites that actually have successfully built a community.

Hmm, let's see. Bandwidth costs about $3/gig. A gig will cover at least 100 people for a month (probably more like 1000). So that's $0.03 per person, per month. If your site isn't worth $0.03 a month to its users, it isn't worth being supported by the CMF. If you can't get 1 in 100 users to donate $3, you've got major problems.

If you have enough users that you're paying any significant amount of money for bandwidth, surely you can get a sponsor. Too many users is a problem I'd like to have.

Now, you may think that k5 isn't "worth the CMF supporting", and you're probably not alone in that, but the CMF board seems to think otherwise :-)

I don't plan on becoming a member of the CMF, so my opinion really doesn't matter. $20 a year just to cover administrative overhead? I'm not wasting my money on that.

On the other hand, none of that is set in stone. Once it becomes more clear to me what exactly the CMF is doing, maybe I will consider joining. Hopefully they'll offer a free alternative, though. I'd rather volunteer my time than pay dues.



[ Parent ]
K5 bandwidth. (none / 0) (#69)
by ffrinch on Wed Dec 03, 2003 at 01:05:34 AM EST

Stats. About a hundred gigs a month, it looks like.

-◊-
"I learned the hard way that rock music ... is a powerful demonic force controlled by Satan." — Jack Chick
[ Parent ]
So, around $300/month let's say... (none / 0) (#71)
by dipierro on Wed Dec 03, 2003 at 11:33:43 AM EST

That's a high estimate, but let's use it anyway. And they were able to raise $70K, without even being a non-profit (I think a lot more people would have donated if K5 was a non-profit). That's enough for 233 months. Bandwidth is not a significant factor. Unless you're doing something media intensive (which probably won't be self-sustainable anyway), bandwidth costs can easily be paid for by the membership, either directly, or through non-intrusive ads. And this ignores mirror sites, which would be willing to provide bandwidth for free. The real expenses are the startup costs. Once you're up and running, you do a little maintenance, and watch the residuals roll in.



[ Parent ]
the point (none / 0) (#64)
by aphrael on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 04:41:59 PM EST

The point is both to turn kuro5hin into a non-profit and provide a means for community operation thereof *and* to provide a mechanism for supporting other projects that are worth supporting. Some of them will be the ideas of members of the CMF board, some of them will be the ideas of members of the community, and some of them will be ideas that people come to us and go "hey, isn't this cool, can you help me out?".

[ Parent ]
That sounds to me... (none / 0) (#65)
by dipierro on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 05:10:22 PM EST

like the CMF does start sites, and doesn't merely "support sites that are already running." That's when a site needs support, during the startup phase, not after it's already running. Once a site is up and running, if it still needs support, it's not worth supporting.



[ Parent ]
I think there's room for both. (none / 0) (#66)
by aphrael on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 06:28:40 PM EST

Someone with a good idea and a plan who is starting up a site? Yeah, we'll support them. Someone with a good idea and a running site that needs help for some reason? That, too.

Note that operating under the umbrella of an existant non-profit (the CMF) means that you're essentially subcontracting out the legal issues to them (us), which is a useful means of support in and of itself. :)

[ Parent ]

If you want to post fiction (1.50 / 3) (#30)
by Stick on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 04:08:02 AM EST

Go to HuSi.


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
but (none / 0) (#33)
by calculus on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 07:24:41 AM EST

Since when couldn't Fict5ion be made before any CMF non-sense hosery?

-1, Fiction (1.77 / 9) (#34)
by My Other Account Is A Hulver on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 07:36:48 AM EST

I mean, the CMF is fictional, and specifically the idea that there's any CMF money left to support other sites.  Look, I'll type this very slowly to make it easy for y'all:
  • There is no CMF.
  • There never was a CMF.
  • There is no CMF money.
  • There never was any CMF money.
  • rusty pocketed the lot, and in return we got an increasingly broken site, and a bunch of diaries telling us how fucking sweet his life was because he didn't have to work for a living any more.


I believe drduck is a genuine account, and I don't delete him because I'm a hypocrite. - rusty
It's a little late to bash Rusty over this (none / 1) (#36)
by theboz on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 10:07:20 AM EST

There never was any CMF money. rusty pocketed the lot, and in return we got an increasingly broken site, and a bunch of diaries telling us how fucking sweet his life was because he didn't have to work for a living any more.

Although I don't think he is, let's say that Rusty is scamming the K5 userbase. He raised about $70k if I remember correctly (or maybe only half of it, I forget) about two years ago. That much money would definitely be a sweet deal, but it couldn't replace working. At $35,000 a year, he couldn't afford to pay for his house, vehicles, weed, etc. That would mean that if he really wanted to take advantage of the K5 community for profit, he would have done things a little differently to guarantee an income from the site. At this point, I imagine he makes enough money to at best pay half of his house payment from ads, but at worst buy himself a bottle of good whiskey to drown his sorrow in.

I agree that there are improvements that can be made here, but as far as I can tell since I came back the site has been more reliable, Rusty turned over some of the admin work to other people. There are definitely problems here, but I think that it's with the quality of the readers and writers here. I don't think we can really blame Rusty for most of the problems here, even if the CMF is a joke. The existence or non-existence of the CMF doesn't really seem to effect K5 either way since it's pretty much stabilized in hardware/software/bandwidth/etc. The main problems now are the quality of the stories, the quality of the comments, and the quality of the diary section. All of which Rusty can't really do anything about whether he is interested in the site or not.

Stuff.
[ Parent ]

I said the same thing just the other day (none / 1) (#35)
by Rot 26 on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 08:38:57 AM EST

I agree. I said the same thing the other day here. Great minds think alike.
1: OPERATION: HAMMERTIME!
2: A website affiliate program that doesn't suck!
this idea is old old old (none / 3) (#37)
by jacob on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 10:28:37 AM EST

Ever heard of lit.hatori42.com? It was this idea made flesh about a year and a half to two years ago. It collapsed, basically due to lack of interest. I think there's enough interest in fiction around here to support the occasional fiction piece, but not enough to support a whole site for it.

--
"it's not rocket science" right right insofar as rocket science is boring

--Iced_Up

more than lack of interest (none / 0) (#67)
by iGrrrl on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 10:01:19 PM EST

I was very irritated that the site didn't work in Mozilla, and I was basically told that it was my problem.

--
You cannot have a reasonable conversation with someone who regards other people as toys to be played with. localroger
remove apostrophe for email.
[ Parent ]

-1, Impossible (2.66 / 6) (#41)
by sllort on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 01:02:33 PM EST

Rusty voted -1 without commenting, therefore you're gonna get airborne swine before you get this.
--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
I voted on the article, not the idea (3.00 / 4) (#60)
by rusty on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 03:19:00 PM EST

I think a collaborative fiction site is a fine idea, and I would love to see someone create one, whether as part of the CMF or independently.

I voted -1 on the article (not the idea, mind you, but the expression of it) because as an article, it's not very good, and it's also kind of pointless in concept even if it was a great work of writing. When the CMF is in any kind of shape to consider projects, it will be clear what the requirements and procedures are.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

the expression of the idea is pointless in concept (none / 0) (#73)
by sllort on Wed Dec 03, 2003 at 04:18:57 PM EST

Man, now that is confusing.

If I read that comment correctly, you're asserting that the article is pointless because the CMF can't accept ideas yet, and that someday in the future when the CMF can accept ideas, this idea might then be judgeable by criteria To Be Created.

I can respect that, but I think it's evident from the poll that an overwhelming majority believe that this is a good idea regardless of future requirements.
--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]

And I agree with them (none / 1) (#74)
by rusty on Wed Dec 03, 2003 at 05:19:33 PM EST

I also think it's a good idea. I hope it comes to pass. On that we all agree. I still don't think there was that much point to this article, but hey. If it proves we all agree that it's a good idea, that's fine. I'm not going to make a big deal of it. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Does the CMF now own K5? (none / 1) (#47)
by dipierro on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 04:11:08 PM EST

The copyright statement still says "Kuro5hin.org Inc." Kuro5hin.org is still owned by "Rusty Foster," according to whois.

The CMF still hasn't incorporated. (none / 0) (#59)
by aphrael on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 03:10:34 PM EST

This time it's *my* fault. I promise I'll get back to what I need to do once I'm not working 80 hour weeks (probably mid-month).

[ Parent ]
I thought it should be called FCMF (none / 1) (#58)
by crazycanuck on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 02:57:33 PM EST

for "fictional CMF", but then I realised people would believe this referred to the other fictional CMF Rusty's running.

But only only only... (none / 1) (#61)
by sethadam1 on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 03:33:28 PM EST

...if the sites use a common userbase.  I am sick and friggin tired of signing up for every goddamned site out there.  Now, I just say screw it and move on.  

Honestly, I am dying for the scoop crew to realize that dream of some sort of common "scoop-base" that can travel from site to site.  

But then, that's a-whole-nother debate, isn't it?

ms (none / 0) (#63)
by feyr on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 04:14:41 PM EST

yeah, did you also ask microsoft how passport is doing?

[ Parent ]
drupal.org (nt) (none / 0) (#68)
by ramses0 on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 11:12:42 PM EST


[ rate all comments , for great ju
[
Parent ]
Fict5hin? (none / 0) (#76)
by vyruss on Thu Dec 04, 2003 at 02:43:59 AM EST

Never mind the quality, feel the Chee5e...!

  • PRINT CHR$(147)

A Proposal for the CMF | 77 comments (51 topical, 26 editorial, 1 hidden)
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