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[P]
Where is Rusty?

By Stick in Meta
Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:52:07 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

Rusty seems to have disappeared again leaving the website to stagnate. This time he has disabled new users from registration meaning that the userbase will slowly shrink while he procrastinates and refuses to delegate tasks to others.


Broken promises

Rusty has made a number of promises over the years that he has not kept. While normally I would say he is under no obligation to keep these promises we did donate over $30,000 to assist him in doing them.

  • Collaborative Media Foundation - While I do not believe any user asked for this, it was promised to us over two years ago. It seems it has simply been forgotten about.
  • Dealing with the trolls - Trolling has gone way out of hand and while personally this doesn't bother me it has caused many users to go over to the other site.
  • Fixed comment search - I've lost count of the number of years we have been waiting for this to be fixed.
  • Sponsorship system - Rusty promised to implement this system in a fit of rage after photoshopped pictures of his wife were posted. Many users including myself do not wish to see this put in place as it may cause more problems than it will solve. According to Rusty the code has already been completed yet a month later we still are waiting for this system to be implemented. Registrations in the meantime are closed losing the site many potential new members.
  • Monthly updates - This lasted for a few months however they stopped in November 2003. This lack of communication has angered many users. To use Rustys words, "If a month comes and goes without an update in it, then you may excoriate me to your heart's content. :-)"
  • New features - Rusty claimed that the money we gave him would allow him to add new features to scoop. These features have been few and far between.
What can we do?

Simply complaining to Rusty has achieved nothing. In order to provoke some sort of action we should take the following steps.

  • Cancel all your membership subscriptions
  • Do not buy any text adverts
  • Do not click on any google or text adverts
  • Do not purchase anything from the K5 store
  • Email complaints to Kuro5hins sponsors, Voxel and John Companies
  • Continue to offer constructive criticism to Rusty rather than flaming. He may listen this time.
What do we do if nothing happens?

I honestly think if nothing happens we should consider reporting Rusty for fraud. We paid money for him to fufil a number of promises and these have not been kept.

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Poll
Are you unhappy with Rustys management of the website?
o Yes 51%
o No 48%

Votes: 333
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Scoop
o Kuro5hin
o Google
o the other site
o system
o "If a month comes and goes without an update in it, then you may excoriate me to your heart's content. :-)"
o Also by Stick


Display: Sort:
Where is Rusty? | 533 comments (510 topical, 23 editorial, 19 hidden)
Hmm (2.80 / 21) (#3)
by melia on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:22:28 AM EST

I don't know how much Rusty makes from text ads etc., but I doubt it's very much compared to his consultancy or whatever else it is he does.

If he's leaving the site to stagnate then he's obviously not bothered if it dies, so "boycotting" the paid services will have little effect.

Basically, I think people have got to let it go - they made a mistake, gave their money away, and if they're not satisfied there's not much they can do about it. So really, they might as well give up and move to hulver/make their own site.
Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong

Rough figures (2.33 / 12) (#12)
by Stick on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 11:00:39 AM EST

At one stage he would have been making over $400 per week from text ads. Most of the google ads on the website were hosting adverts and they normally pay around $4 per click. The adverts are more than capable of generating a wage.


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
[ Parent ]
I hope (2.88 / 9) (#21)
by duffbeer703 on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 12:44:58 PM EST

That the IRS doesn't take an interest in his little nonprofit organization.

I really like this site, and I think that Rusty's ability to step back makes it a better place.

Look at /. as an example of the other extreme.

[ Parent ]

It isn't a nonprofit organization (3.00 / 7) (#118)
by big fat idiot on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:52:42 PM EST

And even if it was, not-for-profit organizations aren't banned from making money, only from paying out the money as dividends. If all the money from k5 gets paid to rusty as salary, there is nothing illegitimate going on unless the salary is ludicrously high.

[ Parent ]
Pfeh.. (2.25 / 4) (#190)
by Kwil on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 05:45:21 AM EST

..I don't even consider it a mistake.

I paid my 2 bucks or whatever way back when, not because of what Rusty was going to do with the site so much as what had already been done.

When the next membership drive comes up.. hey, I might even chip in another 2 bucks. It's almost worth it just to watch Rusty do his song and dance over the flamage.

That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze


[ Parent ]
+1FP (2.26 / 19) (#6)
by RandomLiegh on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 10:09:34 AM EST

If even stick feels this strongly, then these issues need to be addressed.

---
Thought of the week: There is no thought this week.
---
..a truly interesting turn of events. (1.95 / 24) (#8)
by RandomLiegh on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 10:14:20 AM EST

One of the (increasing number of) administrative sock puppets OdinX (0 comments, stories or diaries) has come out against this story.

It's bad enough when two of the admin sockpuppets gang up to 0 an truly inoffensive comment; but to use those accounts to vote down dis-favorable stories is anal-haberdashery of Michael Sims proportions.

---
Thought of the week: There is no thought this week.
---

Re: ...a truly interesting turn of events. (1.90 / 20) (#140)
by OdinX on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 08:25:14 PM EST

I am not an administrative sock puppet. I vote comments zero that contain personal attacks or insults, or contibute nothing to the discussion of the story. In my opinion, intelligent, well-written, and thought-provoking articles get a +1. I don't consider this article to be front page (or section page) material. You may disagree, and that's fine, but then you have your vote too. The only thing from the article that I think needs to be addressed, is that K5 has a trolling problem, an example of which is your post above, and the people who voted it up. Why would you post, or vote up a comment that doesn't contribute to the discussion, and which contains only personal attacks against the way that someone voted for a story?

[ Parent ]
then why do you consistently rate Mami (1.57 / 7) (#206)
by livus on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 06:56:06 AM EST

with 0?

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
because she's a smug, self-important, egotistical, (2.20 / 5) (#277)
by trane on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 02:48:38 PM EST

political bore?

[ Parent ]
you just stated 5 things (none / 0) (#346)
by livus on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:40:27 PM EST

she adds to the conversation. It claimed it only zeroes people who add nothing.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
Not an administrative sock puppet my arse! (1.25 / 4) (#232)
by RandomLiegh on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:23:57 AM EST

While I'm forced to concede that I'm easily trolled; it seems pretty damned obvious to me that an account with ONE comment cannot be a trusted user (and having the assorted zero-rating priviledges that go along with being a trusted user).

At the time of this writing, OdinX has ONE comment under its' belt.

---
Thought of the week: There is no thought this week.
---
[ Parent ]

Eh? (3.00 / 4) (#242)
by melia on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:45:44 AM EST

I thought everyone was a trusted user these days. Or was that the last comment moderation fix? I can't keep up.
Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
[ Parent ]
I wasn't aware that n00bs could zero people. (none / 1) (#247)
by RandomLiegh on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:22:44 AM EST

if that is the case, then I'll take off my tinfoil hat. ;-)

---
Thought of the week: There is no thought this week.
---
[ Parent ]
Makes sense now (2.22 / 9) (#243)
by GenerationY on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:48:50 AM EST

Your moderation strategy is beginning to make a bit of sense now.

A 0 is not an appropriate response to something that "adds nothing". That my friend is where you should be diverting your 1 votes (discourage). A 0 (hide) is for offensive content, not for things that just don't happen to float your boat. Unless you are omnipotent, indeed Odin himself, then its possible you may be hiding relevant material that other, potentially more informed/differently minded individuals might find pertinent.

You are abusing the moderation system put in place on this site for good reason and carefully kept to by the majority of the users here. There are many times I would quite like to hide replies I don't agree with or think are irrelevant, but I don't. Please read the FAQ immediately.

[ Parent ]

0 is appropriate for adds nothing (3.00 / 4) (#385)
by JyZude on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 09:47:31 AM EST

IMHO,

0 is appropriate for a comment that adds nothing because comments that add nothing cause the signal-to-noise ratio to degrade. Can you imagine how much better k5 would be if we didn't have to read comments like "+1 Trollaxr (nt)" on all his stories? This comment truly adds nothing to the site. It doesn't spark debate, it's not an appropriate reason for upvoting an article. It just sits there annoying people.

If by "adds nothing", OdinX means "content free" like the example above, I fully support handing out 0's.

(No offense to Trollaxr).

-----
k5 is not the new Adequacy k thnx bye


[ Parent ]
Well thats true (none / 2) (#389)
by GenerationY on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 12:23:14 PM EST

I would agree with that certainly, although I think that it should be an aim for the site as a whole to have a consistent rating policy. Depends what you mean by "adds nothing" though; e.g., a joke I don't get adds nothing as well. As does a (seemingly) irrelevant comment that I again don't get.

As must be obvious from the fact I raised the issue, I think theres a few people who are being a bit trigger happy with the 0s. Really IMHO, it shouldn't be a zero, "Hide" doesn't belong on the same scale as 1-3. For that matter I think it would be a good idea to have the Slashdot viewing level thing going on, but there are bigger fish to fry round here for the time being.

I should also wipe the egg off my face and own up to the fact that FAQ is not nearly as I remember it being with regard to advice on rating. My apologies. It is my ignorant old me who should of read it immediately. I shall now slip into a nice, uncomfortable hairshirt for the duration of this evening

[ Parent ]

I noticed that this is your only comment (none / 0) (#522)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Sat May 01, 2004 at 01:59:02 PM EST

and it's just to deny being an administrative sock puppet.  Why do you rate so much and never speak?

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour
[ Parent ]
Uh, hey rusty (2.60 / 45) (#10)
by The Honorable Elijah Muhammad on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 10:26:04 AM EST

Instead of voting this story down, why don't you... uh... you know, reply to it.

I know it's time to get the yacht out on the water again, but really, is a status update too much to ask?


___
localroger is a tool.
In memory of the You Sad Bastard thread. A part of our heritage.
what about the poll in FP? (2.76 / 25) (#11)
by vqp on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 10:44:08 AM EST

It's been there for ages, who can change it?

happiness = d(Reality - Expectations) / dt

Poll (none / 0) (#267)
by driph on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:43:14 PM EST

Admins can change the front page poll, but anyone can make suggestions. If you've got a good idea for a new one, send it over to help@k5. You don't want another random and obscure driph poll.

--
Vegas isn't a liberal stronghold. It's the place where the rich and powerful gamble away their company's pension fund and strangle call girls in their hotel rooms. - Psycho Dave
[ Parent ]
Poll suggestion (none / 3) (#270)
by Cro Magnon on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:58:11 PM EST

How long before K5 dies?

1. One year

2. 6 months

3. 1 month

4. next week

5. It's dead already! Can't you smell it?
Information wants to be beer.
[ Parent ]

Done... (none / 1) (#284)
by driph on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 03:24:06 PM EST

...Kind of.

--
Vegas isn't a liberal stronghold. It's the place where the rich and powerful gamble away their company's pension fund and strangle call girls in their hotel rooms. - Psycho Dave
[ Parent ]
Way to avoid the random and obscure driph poll (none / 0) (#311)
by EvilGwyn on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 05:40:38 PM EST

I voted "I'd tell you but then I'd have to sponsor you." by the way

[ Parent ]
I just created an account on the other site (1.46 / 15) (#15)
by lukme on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 11:44:33 AM EST

Thanks for an interesting article.

Too bad the other site is powered by scoop.


-----------------------------------
It's awfully hard to fly with eagles when you're a turkey.
I don't (none / 1) (#89)
by vqp on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 05:42:48 PM EST

The number of comments on stories disappointed me. If I will waste my free time writing comments here trying to look smart (I know I didn't succeed yet), at least I want to be heard (read) by more than 20 guys.

happiness = d(Reality - Expectations) / dt

[ Parent ]
More than 20 guys (none / 0) (#223)
by Cro Magnon on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:35:32 AM EST

Eventually, as people drift away from a dying K5 and new accounts are still disabled, K5 will have no more than 20 guys.
Information wants to be beer.
[ Parent ]
well, let me know where are you heading to (nt) (none / 0) (#402)
by vqp on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 03:39:11 PM EST



happiness = d(Reality - Expectations) / dt

[ Parent ]
Same here (none / 0) (#264)
by repp on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:29:38 PM EST

But then, I never really added to K5 at all.

[ Parent ]
oh man a mob!!! (2.35 / 17) (#18)
by Rahaan on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 12:27:36 PM EST

Where's my +1tchfork?


you know, jake.. i've noticed that, since the tacos started coming, the mail doesn't so much come as often, or even at all
What's an "itchfork"? (1.83 / 6) (#38)
by Eater on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:22:04 PM EST

Is that what you use to scratch yourself when you have an itch or something?

Eater.

[ Parent ]
BEST PUN THIS WEEK [NT] (1.30 / 10) (#41)
by James A C Joyce on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:33:35 PM EST


I bought this account on eBay
[ Parent ]

it's what you use (none / 1) (#124)
by Wah on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:13:14 PM EST

to both complain about and address an itch (e.g. a monster created in a lab and released on the world as an AI) at the same time.

+ = (p or b)
--
'The Matrix' is a better interpretation of quantum mechanics than Copenhagen.
[ Parent ]

He didn't mean itchfork, you idiot, (none / 1) (#252)
by Scrag on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:28:54 AM EST

clearly he meant a +1 tchfork.  Rusty should be glad he didn't want to use a +20 tchfork on him.  That would really teach him a lesson...

"I'm... responsible for... many atrocities" - rusty
[ Parent ]
In the face of all the unrest around here, (1.36 / 22) (#22)
by ninja rmg on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 12:58:32 PM EST

Maybe it is time for new leadership, or rather supplementary leadership. We need someone who's in-sync with the userbase, especially the fastest growing and heretofore underrepresented segment of it -- the trolls. We need someone who knows how trolls think.

Well, obviously, I am the perfect candidate. I know trolls. Like, that line in the Good Times lyrics? I know it.

And I'm around the site far too often, which means if a good time turns around, I can whip it.

Basically, all Rusty has to do is make me an admin and within about a month, I can gaurantee this place will completely turn around. In a good way.



We need guarantees (1.25 / 8) (#32)
by Dr Phil on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 01:44:50 PM EST

that the banning of trollerists will cease.

*** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
[ Parent ]
Only lame trolls will be banned. (1.12 / 8) (#68)
by rmg on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 04:15:18 PM EST

If you're not lame, no problem.

_____ intellectual tiddlywinks
[ Parent ]

whew. (none / 0) (#531)
by CodeWright on Sat May 15, 2004 at 02:09:19 AM EST

i have use of both of my legs, so i'm good.

--
A: Because it destroys the flow of conversation.
Q: Why is top posting dumb? --clover_kicker

[ Parent ]
I think it's time to let kuro5hin die (2.50 / 24) (#31)
by regeya on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 01:44:10 PM EST

Seriously; I've never subscribed because:

  • Subscriptions are no guarantee of service. Rusty's said as much in the past. So what does a subscription guarantee? A paycheck for Rusty?

  • Things have gotten way out of control. Again, I would expect for things to be brought under control for the paying members' sake; again, I was huffily told that it doesn't work that way. What the fuck?

  • As you say, rusty seems to be conspicuously absent. If he's ignoring the site again, why should I subscribe? My dollars don't help steer the direction of the site, my dollars don't guarantee a certain level of quality; if my dollars are just going toward site maintenance/rusty's grocery bill, and it seems that he's ignoring the former, where does that leave everyone?

    [ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]

  • Maybe try euros instead of dollars? [nt] (1.80 / 5) (#66)
    by Alia on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 03:58:53 PM EST



    [ Parent ]
    I subscribed to pay for the past (3.00 / 6) (#163)
    by roystgnr on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 11:25:52 PM EST

    By the time Rusty started begging for money, I felt like I had received more value from Kuro5hin than from most of the $50 video games I'd bought recently, and donating money to reward K5's creation seemed like a nice thing to do.  My subscription has lapsed, though, and I don't plan to get a new one any time soon.  It's not that the trolls (and the resulting exodus of valuable users) are directly Rusty's fault; it's just that the system he built was well-designed to elicit and sort excellent content from one group of internet users, and poorly designed to work with a larger group, and the few changes attempting to fix that seem to be too little, too late.

    At this point, I don't think there's any way to get rid of the worst users here; the goal instead should be to make it easier for the rest of us to ignore them (browse Slashdot at +5 and then at -1 for a good example of how necessary and sufficient this capability is) and thus hopefully attract more contributing users.

    [ Parent ]

    volunteer... (1.72 / 11) (#33)
    by coderlemming on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:09:35 PM EST

    Sounds like a volunteer to me.  I wonder if you can do any better?


    --
    Go be impersonally used as an organic semen collector!  (porkchop_d_clown)
    I've volunteered a number of times to help [nt] (2.28 / 7) (#129)
    by Stick on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:28:10 PM EST




    ---
    Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
    [ Parent ]
    I'm sure that... (none / 1) (#152)
    by SoupIsGoodFood on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:30:39 PM EST

    ...Rusty wants your help as much as GWBush wants Bin Ladens help for advice on security issues.

    [ Parent ]
    Would you like some cheese with that whine? (2.62 / 69) (#34)
    by localroger on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:13:48 PM EST

    I abstained. I didn't vote this up because it's whiny, selfish, and hateful, but I also didn't vote it down because I know a lot of people feel this way.

    Rusty started this site as an obvious combination of hobby and experiment, and I seriously doubt he ever imagined it would get as big as it is. (If he had, I suspect he would have used a DB engine that scales better.) Some of the complaints in this article involve difficult technical issues. We know Rusty's been working on the search but the basic problem is that K5 uses a database engine with many undocumented and difficult to predict latencies. Very few general purpose engines can put up with the hit rate K5 requires and not implode, and the job of porting Scoop to a different DB would be massive at this point.

    There were some good criticisms of the sponsorship system when Rusty proposed it, and I suspect he is rethinking his approach. I think this is good. A month or two of no new memberships isn't going to do nearly the damage a year or two of unchecked, vindictive, whiny, hateful, selfish trolling has done.

    The CMF is a big project. Rusty has a lot on his plate. He also has to provide for himself and his wife. If you donated I'd suggest one thing you have that you might not have had at this point is K5 itself. It is especially generous of him to continue supporting a site where he is bashed (like this) so regularly and relentlessly.

    I'd like to see the monthly updates myself, but I'm sure goes in the "has a lot on his plate" bin. Rusty may have bitten off more than he can chew with this and other projects, but that's an occupational hazard of trying to do something new and experimental.

    Oh, and one more thing -- as far as "he can't ignore a front-page story," don't forget that this entire site is running on Rusty's software on Rusty's computer and it is perfectly technically feasible for Rusty to drop this story in the dustbin of history no matter how the vote goes. He's promised not to do that after a long-past incident of ill-advised censorship, but Rusty is obviously reconsidering a lot of things now. If you don't like that, I suggest thanking the fuckhead who photoshopped his wife into that picture. He's the one someone should be trying to find and sue.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min

    hateful? (1.78 / 14) (#35)
    by Penrod Pooch on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:16:03 PM EST

    is the truth hateful?

    [ Parent ]
    Truth? (2.58 / 12) (#43)
    by localroger on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:35:42 PM EST

    Accusing someone who is running a free and donation-only community service of fraud because said free and donation-only community service does not meet your personal standard is "the truth?"

    Well the Washington Post called GWB an orator last night so I guess this isn't any dumber than that.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]

    yes (1.20 / 10) (#58)
    by Penrod Pooch on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 03:08:30 PM EST

    the pure truth and nuttin 'bout it.

    [ Parent ]
    In this case... (2.40 / 10) (#48)
    by sophacles on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:43:37 PM EST

    I don't think so.  I think there is a serious concern here.  However the truth can be very hateful.  I have told the truth hatefully before.  Truth and love are not the same.

    Once, there was this girl I was close friends with.  I told her how everyone she worked with thought she was a whore.  I told her how much she came off as a total gold digger to everyone she met (and who had commented on it to me).  She didn't know this at the time.  I was pissed at her over something so I let it out.  Just because it was the truth, was it not also a hateful thing to do? To hurt her in that way?

    [ Parent ]

    While it may be whining... (2.72 / 18) (#37)
    by The Honorable Elijah Muhammad on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:21:46 PM EST

    It's hardly selfish or hateful to expect a certain level of service from a site that people are paying to support. I'm sure rusty has a lot of things on his plate, but that in no way stops him from delegating responsibilities to people with more time available.

    I'd like to think that rusty wouldn't censor a story, the speed at which this is being rated up shows that many K5 users feel the same way. More importantly, removing a story would provoke at least as much of a backlash as the idea of sponsoring did.


    ___
    localroger is a tool.
    In memory of the You Sad Bastard thread. A part of our heritage.
    [ Parent ]
    Backlash? what backlash? (2.85 / 7) (#39)
    by RandomLiegh on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:31:52 PM EST

    People here know there are no other free (beer or speech) alternatives which have as diverse a set of topics and opionions; and that if they do leave, they cannot return under new accounts (no new accounts, after all).

    If the exodus to Husi didn't take k5 down, I doubt this will.

    ---
    Thought of the week: There is no thought this week.
    ---
    [ Parent ]

    Level of service (2.85 / 21) (#40)
    by localroger on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:33:07 PM EST

    Let's examine the level of service Rusty has provided for the community, shall we?

    Rusty ran this site for years with no compensation at all. I'd say that's more than we should have expected.

    Rusty announced that he could no longer pour the uncompensated time into his hobby, and users threw a large amount of money at him to keep it running. While that was a nice pile of cash it's not a living wage for the time period K5 has been up, so I'd say the fact that the site is still running at all is about what we were given to expect.

    Memberships confer a few special features, which, if you have a membership, are what you get for your membership fee.

    Over the years Rusty has been spoofed, hacked, and endlessly picked on and attacked and yet the site is still here.

    Two months after the photoshop incident the site is still here.

    I know if I had poured the time and energy into something that Rusty has into something that had given me as much grief as this has given Rusty, I'd have strongly considered walking away. And I honestly think some people here sense the possibility of driving Rusty to that, and would consider it the ultimate victory.

    K5 destroyed by [insert nick here]! Well, it's always easier to attack than to offer assistance, always easier to destroy than to create. I am very pleased that K5 is still here at all after some of the shit Rusty has gone through and I don't resent his occasional misstep or overreach given what he is trying to do.

    If you do, don't give him any more money. There are other websites out there. But they won't let you get away with the shit Rusty has put up with for the last year or two.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]

    Cry me a river. (2.20 / 15) (#54)
    by The Honorable Elijah Muhammad on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:51:58 PM EST

    When rusty single-handedly supported the site, the userbase was a smaller than it is now. Enter the large cash infusion: Advertising (which you didn't mention), Memberships, and ~70K USD. That was... what, two years ago now? I realize not everybody can do it, but I for one am perfectly capable of surviving on 35K USD/year. Even if rusty isn't that should be more than enough to keep the website running and leave him to sink his own money into whatever he pleases.

    I'm not saying rusty needs to monitor K5 24/7, I'm just asking for a basic level of service (Is the site up?) and for him to fulfill even the basic promises he made. There is *no reason* he can't delegate these responsibilities to someone else if his life is that hectic, but to date he hasn't done so.

    The point is, rusty has precious little to cry about. "Boo hoo, the bad men on the internet made fun of me!" Whether you agree with it or not, if you're a public figure, at some point someone will take issue with you.

    I don't hate rusty, nor do I wish to drive him away, but like I said in one of the other comments the fact that so many other users agree means that something is wrong.


    ___
    localroger is a tool.
    In memory of the You Sad Bastard thread. A part of our heritage.
    [ Parent ]
    Hohum (2.69 / 13) (#57)
    by melia on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 03:07:54 PM EST

    Rusty announced that he could no longer pour the uncompensated time into his hobby, and users threw a large amount of money at him to keep it running. While that was a nice pile of cash it's not a living wage for the time period K5 has been up, so I'd say the fact that the site is still running at all is about what we were given to expect.

    AFAIK the hosting is free? But anyway - while it may seem tempting to think that K5 (with it's modern article voting system etc.) runs itself, that's not really true. Rusty's absence affects the running of the site. The way it seems at the moment is just that Rusty can't be arsed to turn off the server.

    I don't think the site is (too) shit, and if Rusty is busy with a day job, that's fine too - I never donated a penny, so I can't complain about his general administration. It's the fact that he just doesn't seem to care less about it. Why does he bother? That's what I want to know. I mean, if on balance he's decided it's not worth exposing his wife to stupid, puerile abuse, then fair enough - but just say.

    Obviously, monthly updates are a bit too hard, because not all that much should change, but is a comment here and there too much to ask? Maybe, even, Rusty could one day submit an article again. Remember, that's why this place got so popular in the first place.
    Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
    [ Parent ]

    i've done nothing but offer assistance! (1.73 / 15) (#93)
    by rmg on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:11:00 PM EST

    that's exactly what's the problem here. people want to help, they want to make the site better, but rusty does not listen. he doesn't respond, he doesn't accept.

    clearly it's a lot of work and no one expects him to do it alone, but he insists on doing it alone anyway, even though people would be happy to help, even though he doesn't want to go to the trouble of doing it himself.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    mcc: (1.05 / 17) (#99)
    by rmg on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:23:52 PM EST

    why have you been zeroing my comments?

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    hes a jerk like most guys around here (2.07 / 14) (#139)
    by SilentChris on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 08:20:42 PM EST

    you should definitely leave the site.  i did, and im much happier now.

    [ Parent ]
    Say what you will about trolling (2.00 / 21) (#42)
    by Tex Bigballs on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:34:32 PM EST

    Who is more flawed of a person? The person who trolls, goofs around, and everyone knows is acting foolishly, or the person who consistently tells lie after lie and whose word counts for absolutely nothing?

    [ Parent ]
    Mod parent up insightful. [nt] (1.31 / 16) (#51)
    by James A C Joyce on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:46:02 PM EST


    I bought this account on eBay
    [ Parent ]

    All You Can Eat (2.57 / 28) (#59)
    by localroger on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 03:09:06 PM EST

    You remind me of this person I used to know. He prided himself on getting kicked out of "all you can eat" buffets.

    He'd load all the shredded cheese from the salad bar onto his plate. Or he'd load up all the catfish fillets. He was a big guy so he could eat a lot. Once he asked for the entire round of roast beef (actually about the quarter of it that was left) from the carving station.

    Whenever anyone complained, whether another customer or management, he'd yammer on about his Rights and the "all you can eat" sign. Often he'd get refunds. He'd also get disinvited, but he travels a lot and there are a lot of those places in this part of the country.

    The problem is, he was taking something meant for one purpose and using it for another, and insisting that it was his Right to do so because he was within the terms of the sign. So go the trolls. Rusty didn't put the site up as a troll playground, and most of the original users didn't want it to be a troll playground. But the trolls wouldn't listen. They got their Rights to be as obnoxious as they want to be.

    So here you are, whining that the "all you can eat" sign isn't there any more. My heart bleeds. Go find another restaurant, there's plenty of 'em. I want to actually put some cheese on my salad after you load up your plate.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]

    Typical localroger response (2.00 / 26) (#60)
    by Tex Bigballs on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 03:15:49 PM EST

    blame everything on trolling, even though that really has nothing to do with anything.

    Rusty made promises that he chose not to keep. The activity of trolls on the site in no way impede his ability to keep his promises. Therefore trolling is absolutely irrelevant to rusty being able to keep his word.

    Time after time rusty has chosen not to honor his promises. Therefore his word have become meaningless, and my opinion he is a man of little honor. Again, trolling on the site has nothing to do with it.

    So save your breath as far as trolling goes. And judging by how the article got voted to the front page in a matter of hours, with a very decisive vote, I would say that most people on K5 would agree.

    [ Parent ]

    Why would anyone take you seriously? (2.75 / 8) (#164)
    by wurp on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 11:43:47 PM EST

    Certainly trolls don't impede Rusty's ability to keep up his promises, assuming that he's willing to let trolls have their way with the site, doing nothing to stop them.  But they sure as hell could sap his will to keep up his promises.  Who wants to  work their ass off to keep a promise to a bunch of assholes?

    You strike me much of the time as a disingenuous fool.  You know that what you're saying either makes things worse or ignores the meat of a problem to focus on a red herring.  You're smart enough to bait people, smart enough to amuse people, but foolish enough to think baiting people is a good idea.

    So, simply put, why the hell would anyone take anything you (or any of the other torlls) have to say seriously?  Most of you admit that you say things you don't mean, just to bait people.  For the others, it's obvious that you're doing so.  Some of you are quite good at it, but you somehow still seem too fucking stupid to realize that it's a terrible waste of other people's time and emotional energy, and of your time and reputation.

    You (plural) have hardened me, kept me from believing that people mean what they say, by radically shifting the balance in the number of small minded assholes I would normally encounter (because you can remain anonymous on the internet).  Frankly I give no credence to anything you say.  It is almost amusing to see you say that Rusty is a man of no honor.

    Oh, and yes, ha ha, you trolled me.  It must be very satisfying to win that little game.
    ---
    Buy my stuff
    [ Parent ]

    Jesus dude (1.82 / 17) (#168)
    by Dr Phil on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 12:11:58 AM EST

    Seek help. People say shit they don't mean all the time, but you know what the problem with that is? Absolutely fucking nothing. It's not the troll that's killing you, it's your ridiculous paranoia about "being trolled". If you don't enjoy arguing on the internet, don't. If you do, why does it matter if someone doesn't believe what they say? The point where you stop enjoying it, stop posting. You never lose anything.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    Hahaha I've hardened you huh? (1.50 / 10) (#214)
    by Tex Bigballs on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 07:46:33 AM EST

    All that aside, I don't really have to make a case here. The article does it for me. Rusty is a person who can't tell the truth. It's as plain as day.

    No matter how much you people try to rationalize and make excuses for rusty, at the end of the day one thing is FACT. He says things that he's going to do, and then he doesn't do them. That makes him a liar. And, at least in most people's opinions, habitual liars are people of little honor.

    I think the fact that rusty was quick to vote down this article, but can't face any of it, speaks volumes about how embarrassed he is of broken promises. I know I would be.

    [ Parent ]

    bullshit (none / 3) (#251)
    by jettero on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:28:25 AM EST

    blame everything on trolling, even though that really has nothing to do with anything.

    All of the people I used to read (besides localroger) have moved on to husi because of the trolls. So now, I only come back here to read the articles -- I usually skip all but the first few comments entirely.

    It's not the comments under the articles that are the problem though really. The diary section is out of control.

    If you want to see an actual friendly environment, husi is the way to go.

    [ Parent ]

    Friendly? (2.40 / 5) (#253)
    by Stick on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:33:55 AM EST

    That's the last thing that comes to mind when I think of HuSi.


    ---
    Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
    [ Parent ]
    Again trolling has nothing to do with it (none / 3) (#256)
    by Tex Bigballs on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:41:01 AM EST

    If anything, the supposed "trolling" on this site is the crutch that rusty uses as the reason that K5 is completely in shambles.

    As long as people like yourself keep letting rusty play the martyr role, and let him ride that excuse, then the longer he'll get away with putting absolutely no effort into running the site.

    I mean seriously. I'd like you, localroger, or anyone else to tell me, what does trolling have to do with not being able to fix comment search?

    [ Parent ]

    It needs to be fixed, as in (3.00 / 5) (#260)
    by misfit13b on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:13:23 PM EST

    1. be able to allow users to search for comments.

    and

    2. not allow the DB abuse that it caused before. I seem to remember a few days that no one could get at the site because some asshole was constantly abusing the search feature.

    Now, I have no idea how to repair the damn thing so that it fixes both conditions. Sorry, no OSS solutions from me. Maybe no one else does either. I don't know for sure tho, because no one has told me anything.

    Still, I don't see what a great added benefit will come of just being able to search comments. I think that the return of user signup is of much bigger importance. I also think that giving the "subscriber" benefits to all trusted users (assuming that mojo meant anything) for free would be a better step as well. Isn't this site's hosting paid for?

    [ Parent ]
    I'm certainly no expert as far as DB design goes (2.85 / 7) (#262)
    by Tex Bigballs on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:19:40 PM EST

    however, I do know that pb says that he wrote some code to optimize searching, and also hulver wrote some code for searching on husi.

    It's unfortunate because pb went and worked on something hoping to make K5 better, and (as far as I know- I could be wrong here) rusty was too lazy to implement it.

    As far as searching goes, yes it's not exactly crucial to K5, but then again... I can't say I've ever been on a community forum that didn't allow people to search comments.

    But you're exactly right, new users is 100x more important for the viability of the site.

    [ Parent ]

    100% correct (none / 2) (#373)
    by pb on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 02:26:54 AM EST

    The code is still out there; it was before Rusty entirely fell off the face of the Earth, and it may well be afterwards. And if anyone ever wants to integrate it into Scoop, they're free to do so. Other than that, there's no shortage of search engine code out there. K5 not having a search engine isn't a technical problem, it's a social one.
    ---
    "See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
    -- pwhysall
    [ Parent ]
    What (2.26 / 15) (#61)
    by TheOnlyCoolTim on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 03:25:17 PM EST

    If dude was eating what he took how is he doing anything wrong?

    Tim
    "We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
    [ Parent ]

    Because.. (none / 0) (#428)
    by Kwil on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 08:20:28 PM EST

    ..it's possible to be wrong while being legitmate.

    If you empty something out completely so that the rest of the patrons can't have any, that's just rude and wrong, no matter how technically legitimate it might be.

    That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze


    [ Parent ]
    Just curious (2.91 / 12) (#67)
    by Kasreyn on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 04:06:00 PM EST

    was it a particular named chain of all you can eat stores? Because I used to work in one. (Ryan's Steakhouse)

    Actually, I never saw anyone behaving that badly. Typically, the worst behaviors I saw were: Parents letting their grubby, dirty kids run wild and pick their own food (which means picking up one of everything, sneezing on it or licking it or even taking a bite, and then tossing it back in the bin); and huge families of morbidly obese trailer trash waddling in 5 minutes before closing and staying for an hour, which means none of the workers could go home. But I guess when your fat rolls have fat rolls on them, you don't want to be seen in public worsening your problem.

    [/rant]


    -Kasreyn


    "Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
    We never asked to be born in the first place."

    R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
    [ Parent ]
    Actually... (2.50 / 4) (#135)
    by localroger on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:58:07 PM EST

    Ryan's withstood his assaults pretty well, though he didn't spare them his antics. The real victims were fast food salad bars (he really did a number on Wendy's when they had their "superbar") and the mon 'n pop shops out in the middle of nowhere that hang out the "all you can eat" shingle to attract plant workers from the refineries five to ten miles away. He could damn near put those places out of business.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]
    What I want to know (2.06 / 16) (#79)
    by rmg on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 05:13:57 PM EST

    Is what Tex here has ever done to you. I can see why you'd be pissed about RobotSlave, but Tex is just good clean fun. So am I, by and large.

    There are only a couple people on this site that are real problem cases. Your screed smacks of the logic that really perpetuates the troll "problem" -- "All trolls are the same and must be stopped." This approach causes unnecessary friction and emnity and only serves to deepen the problem.

    Ultimately, in your analogy, one has to ask what, if anything, Tex's behavior costs. Clearly, your acquaintance took advantage of the buffet by his costly overindulgence. But what if it turns out that Tex's indulgences cost us nothing? Or even provide a service to the community (as I think the cooler heads around here would grant)? Then your analogy fails spectacularly and your argument follows it.


    _____ intellectual tiddlywinks
    [ Parent ]

    Don't bother debating with localroger (1.88 / 17) (#87)
    by Tex Bigballs on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 05:35:49 PM EST

    every one of rusty's failings as a human being the trolls are supposedly responsible for.

    People like localroger are enablers. Making excuses for rusty is like buying another round for an alcoholic. Anyway, that's for localroger to reconcile with his conscience.

    [ Parent ]

    well, i don't care much about rusty (1.45 / 11) (#88)
    by rmg on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 05:41:27 PM EST

    i've offered my help in good faith and he can accept it or ignore it. it's time to get past the critics and just do our respective things.

    _____ intellectual tiddlywinks
    [ Parent ]

    I know how you feel... (2.50 / 10) (#156)
    by Ayn Rand the Objectivist on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:39:32 PM EST

    I've been trying to offer my services to those poor, missguided people at the Socialist Party of America, but they won't return my phone calls!

    [ Parent ]
    +1 (none / 2) (#221)
    by GenerationY on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:28:59 AM EST

    Strong grip on characterisation sadly lacking in many "themed" trolls.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm having trouble with this analogy. (2.80 / 5) (#137)
    by acceleriter on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 08:09:46 PM EST

    Did he actually eat the stuff, or just take it? It sounded like he was eating it, in which case he was getting what he paid for. If a restaurant would like to advertise all-you-can-eat, they have to provide it in the cases in which it costs a little more than they would like, too. If the cost of doing so is prohibitive, they must cease offering all-you-can-eat. If I ever got kicked out of a restaurant as you say your acquaintance has, I'd take the restaurant to small claims, just on principle.

    [ Parent ]
    Well that was his game (2.66 / 6) (#158)
    by localroger on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:52:21 PM EST

    If I ever got kicked out of a restaurant as you say your acquaintance has, I'd take the restaurant to small claims, just on principle.

    The problem, of course, is that the restaurants have finite resources; even though there is no cap in the letter of the "all you can eat" law he was being deliberately inconsiderate of the other patrons when he'd clear out their entire supply of something he particularly liked. Now that I'm thinking about it he was murder on Pizza Hut lunch buffets too for taking entire pizzas.

    The letter of the law isn't the whole story. Most sensible people understand that the subtext of "all you can eat" includes "without taking the entire can of shredded cheese from the salad bar." Much of his effect was derived by pissing off the other customers. In retrospect, he was ahead of his time. In the early 1980's teh intarweb didn't exist yet and most people had never encountered such an effective troll.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]

    Apologies in advance for being offensive (1.80 / 5) (#235)
    by RandomLiegh on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:35:30 AM EST

    But I really think that once you start anthropormorphising real-life behavoirs as being "trollish", you need serious help. Once your troll paranoia has hit the point of seeing a troll in evary all you can eat buffet it's become pathological (in my opinion, at least).

    ---
    Thought of the week: There is no thought this week.
    ---
    [ Parent ]
    Anthropomorphising? (none / 2) (#314)
    by localroger on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 06:35:48 PM EST

    Actually, by definition, actual behaviors of real humans in meatspace are already anthropic :-)

    It's a language problem. The real problem is that my acquaintance was an selfish attention-grabbing asshole. By convention, when someone is a selfish attention-grabbing asshole of a certain type online, we abbreviate it to "troll" but a rose by any other name etc.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]

    Taxonomising? (none / 2) (#321)
    by David Nelson on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 07:52:04 PM EST

    when someone is a selfish attention-grabbing asshole of a certain type online, we abbreviate it to "troll"

    And when they are of another type we host their novel.


    _____
    Our goal is to provide you with information that is both useful and informative to help you take an active part in our great representative democracy.


    [ Parent ]
    Sounds pithy, but makes no sense /nt (none / 2) (#327)
    by localroger on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:07:48 PM EST



    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]
    Oh, this is rich. (none / 3) (#502)
    by RobotSlave on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 06:22:20 PM EST

    See, I've been following this little thread with another analogy in mind.

    My example involves a gang of card-counting cheats who seek out casinos that haven't adjusted to counting yet, and thus fuck things up for all the normal gamblers who were just out to have a good time.

    But I guess that's nothing at all like this fat bastard you're going on about, is it? Or maybe "the letter of the law isn't the whole story" in one instance, but it is in the other?

    [ Parent ]

    Oi. (none / 0) (#503)
    by it certainly is on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 06:45:26 PM EST

    Happy thoughts, Ed. Think happy thoughts and stop beating on Rusty, localroger, or any of the people you normally have a grudge against. You're past that, remember/

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Thank you! (none / 2) (#504)
    by RobotSlave on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 06:48:08 PM EST

    I'd almost forgotten.

    It's a good thing I've got friends like you to help me through this!

    [ Parent ]

    What are friends for? [n/t] (none / 0) (#505)
    by it certainly is on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 06:54:43 PM EST



    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    but you repeat yourself (1.75 / 4) (#95)
    by Wah on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:12:56 PM EST

    Who is more flawed of a person? The person who trolls or the person who consistently tells lie after lie and whose word counts for absolutely nothing?

    False dichotomy.  They are one in the same.
    --
    'The Matrix' is a better interpretation of quantum mechanics than Copenhagen.
    [ Parent ]

    Yeah but the difference is (2.64 / 14) (#96)
    by Tex Bigballs on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:16:43 PM EST

    the rusty account is viewed as an authority when it comes to matters of the site. Same for pwhysall, Captain Tenille, and the other admin accounts.

    Any troll can bullshit on the site, but most reasonable people wouldn't expect them to be an authority on what they're speaking about, so should judge their words accordingly.

    But if rusty is talking about what he's going to do to K5, then there is no reason to disbelieve him (unless he has a long history of lying)

    [ Parent ]

    but he never said... (2.57 / 7) (#112)
    by Wah on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:40:31 PM EST

    ...what he wanted to do, other than pass off responsiblity and not be a leader.

    Well, yea, there is the CMF, and yes, I have started my own 501(c)(3) in the last year, so it's not that hard.  I don't know about his excuses for that stuff.  That's a pretty big drop of the ball.  Especially since some of us were hoping there was an actual desire to nurture a quality alternative news source, instead of a haven for bored teens and techs to annoy people who like to debate without having to be nice.

    This story should force the issue one way or another though, although Rusty has ignored my direct emails on the same subject.  He's got to do something, or people will just keep bitching with increasing frequency.

    Maybe he juts wants to see how bad it can get?
    --
    'The Matrix' is a better interpretation of quantum mechanics than Copenhagen.
    [ Parent ]

    oh, btw (2.83 / 6) (#236)
    by Wah on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:37:46 AM EST

    I'm not blowing smoke here.

    My 501c3 is called Moore4Yates.org, and is designed to directly bridge the digital divide by giving, yes dammit giving, computers to kids in shit ass economically depressed ghettos neighborhoods.

    We've done over eighty computers so far.  And hope to do about 250 this summer (along with classes on how to use/repair/maintain the things).  The site is still under construction.

    I should do a story about it here, and some of the emails I get from the kids.  See, one of the first things we do is get them connected to the internet and then give them an email list of every single one of their representatives in governmnet, from city to state to nation.

    Maybe that will be next week's story.

    I know the constant crap around here makes outlandish claims par for the course.  But I felt a strong criticism and 'talking the talk', required at least a web link.  
    --
    'The Matrix' is a better interpretation of quantum mechanics than Copenhagen.
    [ Parent ]

    So rusty is a troll? (1.50 / 10) (#97)
    by yayaya on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:16:45 PM EST



    [ Parent ]
    no (2.50 / 6) (#103)
    by Wah on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:27:39 PM EST

    Rusty is not a liar.  He just has more important things to do than the stuff it takes to build a world-class discussion site.

    You fucktards made the decision much easier for him, I'm sure.
    --
    'The Matrix' is a better interpretation of quantum mechanics than Copenhagen.
    [ Parent ]

    Tex, it's not a matter of flaws ... (2.00 / 5) (#109)
    by pyramid termite on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:37:49 PM EST

    ... it's simply a matter of who owns the site and who simply posts here. Get the picture?

    On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
    [ Parent ]
    Which one? (none / 1) (#120)
    by dipipanone on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:01:53 PM EST

    Get the picture?

    Unfortunately, I missed it. A Google search wasn't any help either.

    --
    Suck my .sig
    [ Parent ]
    He who owns the server ... (2.33 / 9) (#133)
    by pyramid termite on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:44:51 PM EST

    ... is always right. That's rule 1. When he who owns the server is wrong, refer to rule 1.

    On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
    [ Parent ]
    we bought the server (NT) (none / 0) (#525)
    by Wah on Sun May 02, 2004 at 06:33:31 PM EST

    really.
    --
    'The Matrix' is a better interpretation of quantum mechanics than Copenhagen.
    [ Parent ]
    I DISAGREE WITH YOU VEHEMENTLY, SIR!!! (1.80 / 26) (#50)
    by James A C Joyce on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:44:41 PM EST

    "I abstained. I didn't vote this up because it's whiny, selfish, and hateful, but I also didn't vote it down because I know a lot of people feel this way."

    Whiny, yes. Selfish and hateful - WTF? The painful truth does not equate to hatefulness. And whininess has never precluded a story from being good before.

    "Rusty started this site as an obvious combination of hobby and experiment, and I seriously doubt he ever imagined it would get as big as it is. (If he had, I suspect he would have used a DB engine that scales better.) Some of the complaints in this article involve difficult technical issues. We know Rusty's been working on the search but the basic problem is that K5 uses a database engine with many undocumented and difficult to predict latencies. Very few general purpose engines can put up with the hit rate K5 requires and not implode, and the job of porting Scoop to a different DB would be massive at this point."

    If that's the case, why doesn't Rusty just admit that he fucked up and scrap the whole thing instead of letting it limp along like a diseased horse?

    "There were some good criticisms of the sponsorship system when Rusty proposed it, and I suspect he is rethinking his approach. I think this is good. A month or two of no new memberships isn't going to do nearly the damage a year or two of unchecked, vindictive, whiny, hateful, selfish trolling has done."

    Oh, please. The trolls are and always will be the best part of K5. Nice job on repeating those three adjectives "whiny", "hateful" and "selfish" again like they're some kind of leitmotif.

    "The CMF is a big project. Rusty has a lot on his plate. He also has to provide for himself and his wife. If you donated I'd suggest one thing you have that you might not have had at this point is K5 itself. It is especially generous of him to continue supporting a site where he is bashed (like this) so regularly and relentlessly."

    Yes, it is a big project, but Rusty should have the foresight to think "Hmmm. I've gotta look after myself and Bret and make sure I don't fuck up the day job. Maybe it would be best to leave the CMF until I can put in sufficient effort to make it a viable enterprise". But no. Why else do you think he is bashed so regularly and relentlessly?

    "I'd like to see the monthly updates myself, but I'm sure goes in the "has a lot on his plate" bin. Rusty may have bitten off more than he can chew with this and other projects, but that's an occupational hazard of trying to do something new and experimental."

    New and experimental? Occupational hazard? Huh?

    "Oh, and one more thing -- as far as "he can't ignore a front-page story," don't forget that this entire site is running on Rusty's software on Rusty's computer and it is perfectly technically feasible for Rusty to drop this story in the dustbin of history no matter how the vote goes."

    Well, yes, but that would be a tad hypocritical of him, wouldn't it? Especially after all you've been saying about his putting superhuman effort into this endeavour and making sure nobody buggers it up.

    "He's promised not to do that after a long-past incident of ill-advised censorship, but Rusty is obviously reconsidering a lot of things now. If you don't like that, I suggest thanking the fuckhead who photoshopped his wife into that picture. He's the one someone should be trying to find and sue."

    It's all just pixels on a screen. I very much doubt that it warrants going batshit insane and completely screwing over K5. I could understand him just banning every account that linked to the picture, or maybe finding out where Nigga lives and pounding the shit out of him, but his response is like that of an angry kid with a scattershot.

    I bought this account on eBay
    [ Parent ]

    Oh fucking please. (2.52 / 17) (#65)
    by Imperfect on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 03:54:06 PM EST

    Oh, please. The trolls are and always will be the best part of K5. Nice job on repeating those three adjectives "whiny", "hateful" and "selfish" again like they're some kind of leitmotif.

    People like localroger and CheeseburgerBrown are the reason I keep coming back to this site. Them and regular tech-work joes who want to talk about life, liberty, and the new successor of C++.

    Once in a million posts, a troll adds value, but more often than not I find myself guarding my replies or carefully analyzing replies to make sure I'm simply not feeding trolls. The reward for that is minimal at best.

    Not perfect, not quite.
    [ Parent ]
    So you disagree with one of my points? [nt] (1.66 / 15) (#82)
    by James A C Joyce on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 05:26:22 PM EST


    I bought this account on eBay
    [ Parent ]

    some people would say (2.18 / 11) (#83)
    by rmg on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 05:31:11 PM EST

    you should think carefully about all your posts even fi you know there aren't any trolls around.

    _____ intellectual tiddlywinks
    [ Parent ]

    BITTEN! (none / 1) (#390)
    by Imperfect on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 12:25:44 PM EST

    Fine, I'll bite.

    There exists a key difference between thinking about what you say and double-checking to make sure you're just not feeding the trolls.

    Hint: one is productive to discoure, the other is not.

    Not perfect, not quite.
    [ Parent ]
    well, sure, (none / 1) (#392)
    by rmg on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 12:49:50 PM EST

    obviously checking whether something is a troll or not isn't discourse. a child could have told you that.

    i honestly don't see what the problem is. when i talk to people, i automatically figure out when they're joking or demonically advocating or whatever. and similarly when i'm reading here. i don't see where this confusion about what is and is not a troll even comes from.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    Sarcasm doesn't carry well across text (none / 0) (#398)
    by Imperfect on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 02:20:59 PM EST

    And as such, I sometimes have a hard time understanding it when written, as opposed to spoken. This applies to trolling, as well. I sometimes have difficulty telling whether someone is saying something because they honestly believe it, or just to get a rise out of me.

    I enjoy the former conversation, and despise the latter.

    Those less omniscient than yourself may understand what I'm talking about.

    Not perfect, not quite.
    [ Parent ]
    i suppose there's no accounting for the readers' (none / 1) (#399)
    by rmg on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 02:25:33 PM EST

    abilities.

    here's a good way to look at it. you can read all about it in susan sontag. just forget about authors' intent. you can never really know what the author is thinking anyway. instead, think about the virtue of the post and the argument.

    it's like gzt said... why think about whether someone is a troll or a criminal? the real question is whether he has virtue. does the post have virtue? this is a question anyone can answer.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    I believe... (none / 0) (#403)
    by Mr. Penguin on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 03:42:43 PM EST

    ...that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, over-rated crap....

    Sorry, couldn't resist the Bull Durham reference.



    [ Parent ]
    Best comment ever! (none / 1) (#413)
    by gzt on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 05:41:15 PM EST

    I was all like, "Oh man, I'm having a rough day and I need to K5 to make it all better," and the first rmg comment I read was a slap across the face of pure gzt-indulging justice! It almost makes me want to subscribe to K5.

    [ Parent ]
    I have considered this before (none / 0) (#414)
    by Imperfect on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 05:49:44 PM EST

    And continue to do so. I've voted up stories that were trolls before, since they've encouraged honest discussion. The problem being encouraging the same assholes that go and ASCII goatse someone's diary entry, or post an entire homosexual erotic story, or even worse and more insidious, pick out some small fact from the story, distort it, and focus the discussion upon it instead of the other parts of the story.

    While that discussion may indeed have merit, the fact that the troll in question is attempting to derail the original story is still poor. In a situation like that, its difficult to approve or disapprove of the new discussion, and I'd prefer to be saved the trouble of having to try to figure out that shit.

    Not perfect, not quite.
    [ Parent ]
    well, (none / 0) (#417)
    by rmg on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 05:54:15 PM EST

    i'd say if you can't tell whether people posting ascii goatse.cx are trolling or not, your problem is worse than i thought.

    i probably can't help you.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    And this is precisely why (none / 1) (#425)
    by Imperfect on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 07:47:16 PM EST

    feeding a troll is a waste of time.

    Rather than have had an honest, useful discussion, you have succeeded in wasting my time, and I have achieved nothing.

    Except, perhaps, proving my original point -- at least to me.

    Not perfect, not quite.
    [ Parent ]
    not so, good sir. (none / 1) (#426)
    by rmg on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 07:54:51 PM EST

    you have given me a palette on which to paint. you have contributed to the amusement of many silent readers.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    Perhaps a better explanation (none / 0) (#462)
    by Imperfect on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 02:38:28 AM EST

    While I understand that this is a valid and useful conversation for you and your... artistic sensibilities, it is not the kind of conversation that I find personally fulfilling. If I were reading this instead, I'd likely continue to find it frustrating at best. This is not the kind of discussion I appreciate wading through on K5.

    Fine, so you are cleverer than I, and more artful in directing a conversation the way you choose to guide it. I don't really see what point this serves beyond perhaps feeding a superiority complex nursed perhaps by yourself and your fans.

    And oh, fuck it. Ignore the supposed superior tone of this next bit, or ignore it entirely, but I just can't stop looking at that first sentence of yours and wanting to nitpick it. It's "a pallete with which to paint", or "a canvas on which to paint." It really isn't anything, but little grammatical things like that drive me bonkers, especially at 2:30 in the AM when I am easily distracted.

    Alright, there. Better. Back to our regularly-scheduled vitriol.

    Not perfect, not quite.
    [ Parent ]
    there are two concepts of dicussion on this site. (none / 0) (#487)
    by rmg on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 10:51:00 AM EST

    the trolls' is about form and style. the majority's is about content.

    those who can appreciate style alone form a small intellectual elite. many of them feel there is little they can learn from regular discussion so they turn to the more entertaining pursuit of trolling.

    the points my works serve are many and varied. there are only a select few who "get" rmg.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    "Intellectual elite", oh that's rich. (none / 0) (#495)
    by Imperfect on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 12:47:28 PM EST

    As is the "there are only a select few who "get" me" line.

    Really, now. If I didn't already have such respect for your raw intellect, I'd begin to suspect that you're just a gifted but angst-filled fourteen-year-old, anxious to move out of his parent's basement.

    Just because you choose to exclude content from your high-handed site-concept doesn't make it an elite or superiour form of discussion. There are some who combine the two in a way that regularly brightens my day, as opposed to others who regularly contribue nothing of import, and even detract from it.

    Regardless, your original argument still holds no water.

    Not perfect, not quite.
    [ Parent ]
    im not sure about your technical opinion here (2.30 / 10) (#62)
    by thesatirist on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 03:25:58 PM EST

    Some of the complaints in this article involve difficult technical issues. We know Rusty's been working on the search but the basic problem is that K5 uses a database engine with many undocumented and difficult to predict latencies. Very few general purpose engines can put up with the hit rate K5 requires and not implode, and the job of porting Scoop to a different DB would be massive at this point. I don't really buy that at all. There is nothing difficult about searching. It's a solved problem. Maybe he just doesn't know what he's doing? That's fine. If you start something when you don't know what you're doing, that's fine, but it's not fine when that something gets popular and you don't ask for help.

    [ Parent ]
    Tend not to agree (2.57 / 7) (#92)
    by localroger on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:09:14 PM EST

    There is nothing difficult about searching. It's a solved problem.

    It sounds to me like your experience with searches involves using the search functions of various products that were written for you.

    I have written search algorithms. There is nothing "solved" about them. The combination of available RAM, mass storage, processor capacity, and storage format has large implications on how to best perform a search, and no one solution works well in all situations. It is obvious that the built-in search functions in MySQL are inadequate for a DB the size of K5. My experience is that when you run into a wall like that in a product like MySQL, even if that product is open-source, working past it can be a bitch.

    Personally, if I had written Scoop I wouldn't have used a DB at all. That's what file systems are for. But it's not a rapid-development approach, and it limits your flexibility in making changes to the system later.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]

    architecture vs implementation (2.80 / 5) (#146)
    by thesatirist on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:01:22 PM EST

    The actual implementation of something like that is hard, I'm not denying that. However, the fundamental architecture of a large searchable data store is a fairly well solved problem. A reasonably straightforward design that used a file system data store and an indexing server would go a long way in this case. The point I was trying to make, and didn't do a very good job of making, was that a little bit of architectural guidance would've gone a long way in this situation.

    [ Parent ]
    don't blame it on the database.. (2.20 / 10) (#69)
    by Suppafly on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 04:19:08 PM EST

    livejournal has considerably more users than k5 and they don't have any problems using mysql.
    ---
    Playstation Sucks.
    [ Parent ]
    Yes. (2.60 / 5) (#178)
    by Zerotime on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 02:40:19 AM EST

    But they also have this thing called "memcached".

    ---
    "You don't even have to drink it. You just rub it on your hips and it eats its way through to your liver."
    [ Parent ]
    so what.. (none / 0) (#369)
    by Suppafly on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 01:28:12 AM EST

    it's open source.. I'm sure Rusty could use it here if he wanted.
    ---
    Playstation Sucks.
    [ Parent ]
    Excellent. (1.20 / 5) (#73)
    by rmg on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 04:31:14 PM EST

    I salute you, sir.

    _____ intellectual tiddlywinks
    [ Parent ]

    My impression is that like me ... (3.00 / 13) (#77)
    by pyramid termite on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 04:58:56 PM EST

    ... Rusty is treating this site with the seriousness and consideration the community here has deserved.

    He's probably more coordinated than I am - I'd have tripped over the plug months ago.

    On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
    [ Parent ]
    Stick to writing fiction (1.70 / 17) (#123)
    by Little Surfer Girl on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:12:12 PM EST

    Rusty started this site as an obvious combination of hobby and experiment, and I seriously doubt he ever imagined it would get as big as it is. (If he had, I suspect he would have used a DB engine that scales better.) Some of the complaints in this article involve difficult technical issues. We know Rusty's been working on the search but the basic problem is that K5 uses a database engine with many undocumented and difficult to predict latencies. Very few general purpose engines can put up with the hit rate K5 requires and not implode, and the job of porting Scoop to a different DB would be massive at this point.

    Huh? Are you on crack? I rally hope not, as it is bad for your teeth. Please stop acting like you know anything about MySQL 4.x, since clearly you do not.

    This does not even begin to go over how MySQL has nothing to do with Rusty running this site into the ground. It is like blaming your last car crash on the fact that you had an internal combustion engine, which of course is not as good as a turbine engine. In short, ridiculous and stupid. This is especially disappointing coming from you, since I really enjoy your writing work.

    The rest of your pseudo-apologetic nonsense is just that, not even worthy of a response. How sad. You know, there are LOTS of other people who will host you for free.
    -- Don't criticize Ronald Regan, or your K5 account will get zapped, too.
    [ Parent ]

    About MySQL (1.55 / 9) (#134)
    by localroger on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:54:37 PM EST

    You're right, I don't know much about MySQL. I know it is a database engine, and I don't use database engines because
    1. When the database gets corrupted you need special tools to clean it up if you can salvage it at all
    2. They ALL have undocumented and difficult to anticipate latencies
    3. I have never met a generic query engine that could compete with a purpose-written algorithm that is written with an awareness of the RAM and mass storage latencies in the system
    I would have written Scoop (or anything like it) to use the filesystem; that's what filesystems are for and those that aren't whack (*cough* FAT *cough*) are good at it. Then, when implementing things like searches, you are free to make your own tradeoffs, spin things out into separate applications, etc. A DB tries to do all things for all applications, and when you do that you end up doing nothing particularly well.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]
    Some points (3.00 / 11) (#138)
    by melia on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 08:17:15 PM EST

    When the database gets corrupted you need special tools to clean it up if you can salvage it at all

    And this does not apply to filesystems?

    A DB tries to do all things for all applications, and when you do that you end up doing nothing particularly well.

    That doesn't really make much sense.

    If anything, this applies more to filesystems - it's filesystems that are designed to do all things for all applications, whereas relational databases have a strict conceptual framework designed specifically for storing relations. If you tried to implement K5 on your own i'd guess you'd end up just writing your own database engine. Thinking on it, a database is a perfect partner to this sort of application.

    Anyway, if Rusty had used his own personal data format I think he would have even less time to devote to K5.
    Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
    [ Parent ]

    IHBT (2.85 / 7) (#170)
    by dn on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 12:27:45 AM EST

    I would have written Scoop (or anything like it) to use the filesystem; that's what filesystems are for...
    Show me a filesystem that provides referential integrity, transactions with automatic conflict resolution, journalled updates, online snapshot backups, multi-version concurrent access, and is aware of data structure. Your approach would do some combination of limit the requirements to make it implementable, take too many man-hours to implement, or be buggy as all hell. Unmaintainability is also likely.
    A DB tries to do all things for all applications, and when you do that you end up doing nothing particularly well.
    Then why, when engineers are responsible for provisioning large commercial systems where an hour of downtime is worth more than their life, do they consistently choose RDBMSes? Hint: Systems like this used to be written in hand-optimized assembler. The people responsible gladly move to general-purpose DBMSes when the hardware would handle them.
    When the database gets corrupted you need special tools to clean it up if you can salvage it at all.
    Oh, of course, a one-of-a-kind hand-designed custom format is so much easier to decorrupt than a standard format.
    They ALL have undocumented and difficult to anticipate latencies.
    Pray tell, lord, how do we service random simultaneous queries in predictable time? <crickets chirping>
    I have never met a generic query engine that could compete with a purpose-written algorithm that is written with an awareness of the RAM and mass storage latencies in the system.
    Better is the enemy of good.

    Don't get me wrong. If need be, I'll solve a problem with an FPGA and squeeze the timing until the electrons scream. However, there are many problems where adaptability and ease of development are king.

    P.S. The Scoop engine has a metric assload of dynamic content that is regenerated frequently (as in: every page fetch). Most of the query results change slowly, and stale results are rarely a show-stopper. Your database-first approach is premature optimization ("the root of all evil"). Far better would be to write a generic chunk o' text cacher, and gradually move the hottest queries over to it.

        I ♥
    TOXIC
    WASTE

    [ Parent ]

    IHBT? (none / 3) (#329)
    by localroger on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:16:52 PM EST

    I honestly was not trolling. I am a low-level solutions guy. I will probably always be one because of my experience. I have in my career seen an unending procession of problems like the Scoop search sluggishness, and the source of them is always the same: Some high-level tool promises to do magic, and some end user who doesn't understand the low-level nuts and bolts of the magic pushes it past its poorly documented limits.

    DB engines are a significant problem. Yes, in some applications you need them for the reasons you mention, but nine times out of ten they are deployed where they aren't needed because a flat file structure would be faster, more reliable, and easier to implement.

    There are people who get good performance out of DB's and when they do so in challenging situations they always turn out to be people who have spent a lot of time learning low-level things about how the DB works. Most DB programmers do not do this. I think the fact that Rusty has coaxed a generic DB to generate as much on the fly crap as Scoop does is a pretty good hat trick, but there comes a time when you need flat text files, plenty of RAM, and assembly language if you are going to get the job done.

    I have had much trouble over the years from other peoples' software written at a too-high level of abstraction. I have never had a problem with other peoples' software written at a too-low level of abstraction, and while I've missed the occasional feature in the low-level stuff when the chips are down I take what works over what is easy to work with.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]

    assembly language? (none / 0) (#362)
    by rmg on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 12:14:10 AM EST

    shit, it would just take a couple hashes of hashes full of the most recently accessed content to make this place serve that shit up like a bat out of a blender.

    assmbly language... man...

    i guess ihbt...

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    Yes, assembly language (none / 1) (#383)
    by localroger on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 08:31:24 AM EST

    Hashes of hashes? WTF?

    It's not rocket science. You create a flat text file image of the entire site. There is no "special file format" involved. If something is edited you don't resize the file, you mark the old copy in the middle as invalid and add the edited copy at the end. Once a month you garbage collect it. Total time to write this in Perl or VB or whatever, about an hour.

    When someone requests a search, you spawn a thread that loads the search image in blocks and using a highly optimized assembly language parser scans the blocks for the search phrase. Total time to code the block loader in the high-level language and write the scan routine in .asm, a day or two.

    Writing the scan routine in .asm is important because this is the bottleneck. Optimized .asm on a tight loop like this will almost always be two or three times faster than C. This kind of scan can be done about as quickly as the page can be transferred into RAM if it's done right, and since the search spends most of its time waiting for the disk controller to load the next page, the CPU spends most of its time servicing other threads, i.e. the Scoop engine.

    It would probably take a little tweaking to get the block size optimized. As I keep saying, this kind of thing is highly dependent on the disk speed, interface hardware performance, and available RAM and CPU cycles.

    No weird hash algorithms. No caches or strange lookup files. Very little debugging. Since searches run in their own threads they don't lock up the DB or Scoop's other functions. End of problem.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]

    I'm sure Rusty would love to see the code. (none / 2) (#386)
    by Another Scott on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 10:03:53 AM EST



    [ Parent ]
    This is a brilliant idea localroger! (3.00 / 7) (#387)
    by Tex Bigballs on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 11:30:49 AM EST

    just think we could make the entire K5 database into a flat text file and then code search in assembly! Brilliant.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I need to change the battery on my time crystal and get fitted for a new alex chiu eternal life device.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually... (none / 0) (#410)
    by localroger on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 04:50:10 PM EST

    ...I'd have coded K5 as a series of directories organized by date, containing individual files for the comments and stories. But I'd also have the flat file with minimal indexing from individual files to the flat file. The flat file is for searches, which must traverse everything, and the individual files are for quickly locating individual posts whose ID's are known. With an efficient filesystem this sort of approach can be more efficient than a RDBMS -- if you know going in that you will only need certain types of query.

    The neat thing is that good filesystems tend to have very robust and well-tested schemes for RAM caching so you don't have to write optimization code yourself. They do one thing (storing and retrieving blocks of data, without supporting queries) and they do it very well. As I keep saying, when you try to do everything for everybody you don't do anything particularly well (and IIRC doesn't the RDBMS have to live on top of a file system?)

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]

    What I would do (none / 3) (#411)
    by Tex Bigballs on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 05:28:37 PM EST

    Everytime a comment, diary or story was posted I would break it apart into individual words (separate by whitespace, hyphens, whatever)

    Then I would capitalize every word, case sensitive search wouldn't be supported (I don't think anyone here would mind, at this point)

    Then I would sort those words in alphabetical order, and eliminate any duplicates, and words under three letters.

    Then I would make another database, like a binary tree or something like that. Every word would be a separate record.

    So basically if a word was already in the word search database, the comment id, story id, diary id, whatever, would just be added to that word's record.

    And if not, then a new word record in the wordsearch database would be created.

    That way, whenever anyway searched for anything, it would only have to search that word in my database and it would instantly spit out all the comments associated with that word, because everything was preindexed.

    The only downside would be that to index all of the old comments would probably take a couple days. Then there would only be a minimal overhead everytime a comment, story or diary was posted to reindex that.

    Now, if I understand your way correctly, it would be the equivalent of

    grep [string] entirescoopdatabase.txt

    Now, grep is a very fast program, but try it on a multigigabyte file, and even the fastest computer is going to choke. Now try 4 or 5 concurrent greps and watch the machine die.

    [ Parent ]

    Not grep (none / 0) (#422)
    by Canar on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 07:11:36 PM EST

    There are faster methods of searching than grep, especially if you know precisely what format the data's going to be in.

    Take a binary tree, for example. That should be very quick. 16 queries for a 65k data set. 32 queries for a 4G data set. That is, assuming the data set's optimal.

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah... (none / 0) (#469)
    by bugmaster on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 04:28:35 AM EST

    But localroger doesn't like trees for some reason. Or hashtables. Or anything. Flat text files on disk -- that's the way to go !

    Damn, my mind is still boggling. In the immortal words of Bart Simpson: "How can someone with glasses this big be this stupid ?"
    >|<*:=
    [ Parent ]

    Not really... (none / 0) (#476)
    by Canar on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 08:19:19 AM EST

    He was just discussing ways of making K5 actually work that didn't involve any sort of DB software.

    [ Parent ]
    That's impossible (n/t) (none / 0) (#496)
    by bugmaster on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 02:18:04 PM EST

    No Text
    >|<*:=
    [ Parent ]
    no (none / 1) (#429)
    by Estanislao Martínez on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 08:34:20 PM EST

    Now, if I understand your way correctly, it would be the equivalent of:

    grep [string] entirescoopdatabase.txt

    Grep searches for matches to regular expressions, which is far more general than searching for a fixed substring.

    Now, grep is a very fast program, but try it on a multigigabyte file, and even the fastest computer is going to choke. Now try 4 or 5 concurrent greps and watch the machine die.

    I think this is a pretty bad description. Constructing a regexp table IIRC takes some tradeoff of polynomial and exponential time and space on the size of the regexp (worst-case bounds), depending on the kind of automaton used (DFA or NFA). But once you've constructed the automaton, finding matches is linear on the size of the text and constant in terms of memory.  That is, it takes no more memory to scan for the same regexp in a 10K file than one a 10-gig one-- just a hell of a lot more time.  Regexp searches only consume lots of memory for really complicated regexps.

    So, the machine would certainly not "choke" from 4 or 5 simple concurrent greps.  The greps would just take a long, long time, but the machine can handle that load easily.

    Of course, this is all hypothetical, because a search engine scans for substring matches, not for regular expression matches.  This sort of search can be done using memory space linear on the size of the search string, and the time is linear on the size of the file to scan.  But it's also hypothetical because it's a stupid solution to the keyword search problem.

    --em
    [ Parent ]

    Problem with your method (none / 0) (#433)
    by localroger on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 08:46:14 PM EST

    Your reverse-index by word uses a vast amount of disk memory and you just introduced several of those icky specially formatted files to contain the DB. It also fails completely to allow for phrase searches, which are often necessary when scanning a mishmash the size of the K5 comment history for the particular comment you want. If you pull a compression/indexing trick like this and then later decide you want to allow for some different kind of filtering, you are screwed.

    Searching can be assigned a low priority in the thread heirarchy. Since it takes a lot of CPU cycles you can let the guy who just decided to do a search wait for a few seconds while it cycles. The key is to finish it in a reasonable time, say 15 seconds or so, without compromising the integrity of the more important code that serves up the regular site.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]

    Well (none / 1) (#441)
    by Tex Bigballs on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 09:17:12 PM EST

    I concede that I would be giving up exact phrase searching. However, you could still search multiple keywords, and the search would return any results that matched all three keywords.

    As long as you remembered unique enough keywords for the comment you were trying to find, you probably would stand an okay chance of narrowing the results down enough so it wouldn't be too much of a pain in the ass to pick through them.

    Anyway, the bottom line is that it would be a very fast, if not very elegant method. And I don't think the extra disk space needed would be much of a problem.

    As I said, your method (maybe I don't understand it) is to take the entire scoop database, as a flat file, with no special indexing, and just slog through it one comment at a time. I don't know what kind of cpu is hosting K5, but I doubt you would be able to get through it in under 15 seconds. (even if it were the only process on the machine)

    [ Parent ]

    no it wouldn't (3.00 / 4) (#446)
    by rmg on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 10:41:14 PM EST

    what you're talking about is more or less the same thing as a vector space search.

    exact phrases can be found quite easily. you break the phrase into its constituent words. then you look up those words in the index and find the comments that contain all of them. then you do a search on those comments for the exact phrase by inspecting the text. simple. fast.

    also, the k5 database is no larger than 7GB. in all of that database, there are no more than 500,000 different words and probably less than five million comments. as such, we would expect this index you're talking about to be smaller than 100 megabytes. tiny by modern storage standards.

    localroger is an idiot. this problem is just a simple perl hack.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    well what do ya know (none / 3) (#447)
    by Tex Bigballs on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 10:52:07 PM EST

    I guess you're right rmg.

    Anyway the more i think about it the more i'm starting to think that he has got to be trolling.

    [ Parent ]

    haha, yes obviously. (none / 2) (#448)
    by rmg on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 11:00:15 PM EST

    the original post was straight troll at the end. i just can't resist fucking with localroger, even if he's trolling me.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    Also, (none / 1) (#467)
    by it certainly is on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 04:14:50 AM EST

    for any serious searching based on word order (i.e. "finding text in quotes"), you don't search the source text. You store the word's position in the document along with the reference to the document. You can then just look through a list of integers to ensure consecutive order, rather than doing any more parsing or searching.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    No (3.00 / 5) (#434)
    by shoeboy on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 08:47:10 PM EST

    and IIRC doesn't the RDBMS have to live on top of a file system?

    No, it doesn't. It's not as common as it used to be, but plenty of RDBMS run (and run faster) on raw disks. Yet another example of you not knowing what the fuck you're talking about.

    --Shoeboy
    No more trolls!
    [ Parent ]

    Interesting choice (none / 0) (#527)
    by p3d0 on Mon May 03, 2004 at 10:13:39 AM EST

    [Filesystems] do one thing (storing and retrieving blocks of data, without supporting queries)
    Interesting, then, that you propose to use a filesystem to implement a query.

    Stop guessing. There's lots of research on full-text search; start by reading some of it if you want to design one.
    --
    Patrick Doyle
    My comments do not reflect the opinions of my employer.
    [ Parent ]

    genius. (none / 2) (#391)
    by rmg on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 12:37:34 PM EST

    why not just keep the database (it's already there!) and keep recently accessed stuff in memory in a hash? i think that would be the perl approach.

    all the search function needs is one of those vector index things. you can read all about them elsewhere. pretty standard, more than fast enough.

    jesus christ... assembly language... wow...

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    rmg (2.60 / 5) (#394)
    by Tex Bigballs on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 01:31:11 PM EST

    Please don't take any offense, but it should be obvious even to dullards like ourselves that databases are a thing of the past. The future is in, of course, flat text files. It makes you wonder how companies like Oracle even stay in business.

    However, while coding everything in assembler is a genius idea, I think we should take optimization one step further and have rusty just code the search routines himself in binary with a hexeditor or something.

    I mean why even mess with an assembler when you can code direct to machine language?

    Then after we optimize the search routines we could write the rest of the site in cobol. (I hear it's good for flat file optimizations!)

    [ Parent ]

    the problem with flat text files (2.71 / 7) (#397)
    by rmg on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 01:45:34 PM EST

    is that they can't talk. i propose a new sort of text file: the vocal text file.

    i'm starting a new sourceforge project to attempt to standardize this new format and provide an open sores library licensed under the rmg proprietary license for developers on the SCO UNIX and mac osx platforms. the project shall be known as: the metamorphosis of the prime text file.

    copies of moptf will be available for free download from www.kuro5hin.org/moptf/ before the end of the summer.

    this is the beginning of a new future for intelligent file formats. these are the files that will take our content management systems to strange new worlds, help us seek out new life and new civilizations, in short, to go where no text file has gone before.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    Different purpose (none / 0) (#408)
    by localroger on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 04:39:59 PM EST

    The database is the way it is so you can quickly find interrelated items. That's why the "R" in "Relational." Filesystems and flat files don't do this which is why they are faster and don't break as much data when they fail.

    Disk space is cheap. You use the flat file for searches. It doesn't include ANY relational data except pointers into the DB for returning the results of searches.

    The key is to limit the intelligence which the search algorithm must have. In the relational DB the searcher must parse all the relational pointers. It also ends up skipping all over the disk in some order not related to how the records were laid down on magnetic media. The flat file, in an efficient filesystem, will be VERY quickly scannable. You simply can't do that in a DB.

    And of course you don't get rid of the DB, because it really is better at doing things like building dynamic pages with lists of content.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]

    listen yocalroger, (3.00 / 6) (#416)
    by rmg on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 05:52:21 PM EST

    this folksy flat file crap doesn't cut it up here on the east coast. around here, we don't worry about flood damage or the negroes next door, we worry about deployability and easy of use. we don't live in fear of losing our data integrity because our sheriff isn't his mother's uncle.

    now look, if you want to talk vector space searches and in-memory cache to reduce database load and at the same time make the majority of the pages served completely independent of what's going on with mysql, well, you just give us "city slickers" a ring. until then, why don't you just stick to watching reruns of the dukes of hazzard and tuning up your hotrod to the sounds of lenard skynard and john denver.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    It's lynyrd skynyrd you moron /nt (none / 0) (#436)
    by localroger on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 08:55:19 PM EST



    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]
    whatever. (none / 1) (#437)
    by rmg on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 09:01:21 PM EST

    i don't listen to bluegrass.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    I wish to try your product (none / 0) (#405)
    by melia on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 04:11:26 PM EST

    If something is edited you don't resize the file, you mark the old copy in the middle as invalid and add the edited copy at the end.

    How do I find the location of this "record" (excuse me for using db terminology) in the file?

    Seriously curious.
    Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
    [ Parent ]

    You are a moron (2.42 / 7) (#406)
    by Tex Bigballs on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 04:24:11 PM EST

    that's the beauty of a flat text file. You don't need any fancy indexes. Between the start of the file and the end of the file, somewhere therein lies your data.

    Now, I know what you're thinking... this might take a little longer to find stuff than a conventional database. But that's why all the search routines are hand-coded in assembler (to make it faster and stuff)

    To put it in layman's terms for an idiot like you to understand... lets say you were going somewhere on vacation. Instead of having a map and detailed directions, I just told you to drive your car on every road in the country and stop when you got there. Sure, this MIGHT sound like it would take a little longer, but I'd give you A REALLY FAST CAR

    [ Parent ]

    Actually, that is exactly right. (none / 0) (#409)
    by localroger on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 04:44:03 PM EST

    I know you're being *cough* specious, but what you are really doing is building an alternate road system (you wouldn't want to use the flat file for Scoop itself unless you did build in some indexing). In this alternate road system all the roads are straight and laid end-to-end so you can traverse them at the speed of light. That probably would be faster than driving the shortest path at 40 MPH.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]
    No, it wouldn't (none / 1) (#432)
    by shoeboy on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 08:42:04 PM EST

    In your proposed system the shortest path is 2 feet and the "alternate road system" is 8 light years long. Do the math Einstein.

    Lots of love,
    --Shoeboy
    No more trolls!
    [ Parent ]

    I have done the math (none / 1) (#435)
    by localroger on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 08:53:17 PM EST

    You have exaggerated in your favor even more than you think I have in mine. The fact is I have written code that does this kind of traverse of ~1GB databases in VB (real optimized there) and it takes just a few seconds while using an unnoticeable fraction of the CPU time. Using the same thread to do multiple concurrent searches does not seem to add noticeably to the load. This is in a system that keeps about 200 files open at a time, and also communicates with up to 100 or more server processes via TCP/IP, in realtime, with sub 1/3 second responses being a fundamental requirement, with a single-threaded server app. It works *very* well, which surprised even me when I tried it. (It was worth trying because, for what it does, it is very, very simple and easy to debug, yet exceeds the performance of even SQL for real-time latency.) A properly optimized app using threads appropriately would obviously be even better.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]
    A few seconds? (none / 1) (#443)
    by shoeboy on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 09:56:08 PM EST

    That's not reasonable. And it doesn't compare with pb's vector search code that he gave to rusty (who did nothing with it).

    --Shoeboy
    No more trolls!
    [ Parent ]

    Vector Search (none / 0) (#468)
    by bugmaster on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 04:25:33 AM EST

    Yeah, what happened to that ? It was a solid idea. Was it too difficult to integrate with the rest of Perl code, or something ? I would have liked to see it in action...
    >|<*:=
    [ Parent ]
    Reasonable (none / 0) (#477)
    by localroger on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 08:27:23 AM EST

    Actually a few seconds is very reasonable, when you can do several hundred of them concurrently and they all take only a few seconds, without noticeably loading down the real work going on in another thread.

    Managing realtime latencies is a large part of what I do for a living. For a website, a 3 second delay is quite livable, for most people it is not perceptibly different from a 0.1 second delay, but a 10 second delay is intolerable. It is this kind of latency management that is almost impossible with a canned RDBMS.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]

    scoop is too low level (none / 2) (#418)
    by bc on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 06:20:55 PM EST

    That's why its slow. If it was written in a proper, big, fat framework like j2ee or .NET it'd have stuff like connection pooling and loads of caching built right in, and be about 10 zillion times faster. This low-level nature of scoop, where the poor pearl programmers have to write their own halfarsed crap all the time, and manually craft SQL and so on and so forth, is why its so awfully slow, considering the little functionality it has. Its 1997-era technology. Its completely laughable the hardware that k5 or slashdot need to keep running with any sort of perfomance - and in slashdot's case, they rip out all the features they can just to keep going.

    The attitude of certain sorts of programmers that they should just implement their own extremely halfarsed persistance and pooling and caching crap from the ground up, is amusing, but ultimately it is a waste of time for them. Working alone, they'll never beat the speed, performance, and scalability possible from using an excellent platform, never mind the speed of development possible. Its you V ten thousand of the best brains of our generation, I know who I have my money on.

    ♥, bc.
    [ Parent ]

    I agree (none / 0) (#424)
    by melia on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 07:41:40 PM EST

    I have no idea what Perl even looks like, but I can start to imagine how many queries it takes to do the sort of stuff Scoop does. I've always thought that maybe i was just being dim and there was some magic way these features are implemented. Connection pooling would do a shitload for this place. Let's get started on a Java port of scoop. You do the programming, i'll write a load of fancy crap on a sourceforge homepage.
    Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
    [ Parent ]
    There was this actually (none / 0) (#427)
    by bc on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 08:18:49 PM EST

    linky but the twat developers never went the final mile, even though it was working pretty decently in the demos I saw. At least they left the most entertaining sourceforge page ever.

    It would be pretty desirable to have a decent scoop-like CMS in java, though. I've thought of doing it myself, but I'm lazy.

    ♥, bc.
    [ Parent ]

    Actually you're half-right (none / 0) (#440)
    by localroger on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 09:11:11 PM EST

    If you surrender to an bloated environment that is rich enough to do it all, you can get pretty good performance as long as it works.

    The problem, IME, is that it doesn't always work and when it doesn't you never have any idea why, the people who wrote the bloated framework can't help you, and it very often trashes your data in ways that make it completely unrecoverable. Now your experience may be different, but I live and work off of my own and that's what I've seen.

    I don't trust other peoples' software. At some point or other it always fails me. I expect this, and I plan for it by using other peoples' software as little and grudgingly as possible, and the result is that I have realtime control systems that have been running for 15 years and more without ever crashing.

    Which is good, because if they ever crash it's my phone that rings at 3:00 AM. So I really don't care if it's the latest, neatest, keenest thing and it can solve my problem for me in 15 minutes. I want it to work, 100% of the time (or nearest available approximation), regardless of how much effort on my part is necessary to get there.

    So yes I'm an idiot, I'm a Luddite, I'm totally unschooled (at least recently) and I'm a heretic to boot. But I have put a lot of hardware in the field and I have *never* been sued or had to take back a system for nonperformance. So I am very reluctant to give up my methods.

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]

    Its the opposite (none / 3) (#444)
    by bc on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 10:03:16 PM EST

    I work full time writing Enterprise Applications for the likes of banks, financial institutions, and other regular businesses. Guess what two choices for writing those apps are 98% of the time? -- Java, .NET or ASP/Dcom/MSgarbage.

    Why? Simple. These are developed platforms that support:

    • Real transactional behavior -- Can your flat file crap support cross DB transactions (meaning, I need a transaction that spans the legacy mainframe RDBMS and the new Oracle DB just installed for new project X), transparently, and without the need to code begins, commits, and rollbacks?
    • Clustering -- Can your roll-your-own flatfile solution seemlessly execute across 5 different servers, with objects floating between according the app server's balancing scheme, the whole thing remaining fully functional even if you kick the power out of 4 of those machines?
    • Security abstraction - can you define security/authorization roles at deploy time, without relying on a programmer who "thinks" he understands security to develop some secure code for you?
    • Resource pooling -- does your roll-your-own solution automatically figure out how to efficiently allocate resources such as DB connections without your programmers needing to write some half-witted pooling code themselves?
    Granted, you could build all of these features into an app server yourself, alone. However, I'm sceptical, because apart from Java and .net IT HASN'T BEEN DONE YET, except for EJBs and Microsoft's offering. Sorry. Your solution just doesn't offer these features. As such, it is NOT FIT FOR THE ENTERPRISE. Do you think a 45 Billion in asset bank is going to trust a team of one or two programmers to write code that handles million dollar financial transactions without these features? Businesses want solutions that're extendable, scalable, and which draw on well-tested and well-supported platforms.

    And sure, "good programmers can write all this stuff themselves," like you. They can code transactions. They can code security. Yes. So? All that stuff adds to development time, is less trusted by management, and therefore costs exponentially more.

    The problem, IME, is that it doesn't always work and when it doesn't you never have any idea why, the people who wrote the bloated framework can't help you

    No. The whole reason these platforms are so popular is that they have vast amounts of support. It makes management sleep at night better knowing they can call up IBM, MS, Sun, Oracle, BEA or whoever and have topnotch support. It gives them nightmares to think of that safety net being pulled away.

    Your solution is a toy, one that could only be accepted for non-enterprise problems in any sane business.

    ♥, bc.
    [ Parent ]

    Cool. (none / 1) (#450)
    by it certainly is on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 11:55:54 PM EST

    Banks are hiring coders without degrees? I am so jealous. It must be "who you know" rather than "what you know", and as a well-connected hun, you've got it made.

    Meanwhile, my degree languishes on its ass doing technical support. I don't care that the field engineer peons and their managers think we're gods, it's still a shit job that doesn't involve any coding. Why are companies falling over themselves to license my clean, robust, well documented open source software, but nobody is willing to hire ME to weave my magic on THEIR software?

    "Enterprise" is just a buzzword. Banks may need it for their billion dollar transactional systems, but they don't need it for the phonebook lookup. The problem in large corporations is that once you become that large, almost everything you order has to be "enterprise", regardless of whether it is necessary. Most business leaders shrug their shoulders and call it the cost of doing business, and I'm not going to complain either, firstly because it keeps many programmers in a job, and secondly because it allows a gap in any non-monopoly market for startups who aren't hopelessly entrenched in "the way big business does things".

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Its nothign to do with that (none / 1) (#452)
    by bc on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 12:12:33 AM EST

    You just have to fucking kick arse in interviews, that's all.

    And no, small to medium businesses *definitely* want totally off-the-shelf solutions, cos they don't have money to waste on programmers at all, if they can possibly help it. If you are hiring one, you maximise that investment by using as much off-the-shelf code as you can.

    "Enterprise" is not a buzzword and with that hippyish attitude its no wonder a job in programming is difficult to come by! Just because its used by managers and business-types (who you should respect) does not automatically make it meaningless, you know.

    ♥, bc.
    [ Parent ]

    To kick arse in interviews, (none / 1) (#453)
    by it certainly is on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 12:32:21 AM EST

    I first need to get some interviews. Not a sausage. The big banks just ain't hiring, they're not even employing (software engineering) graduates this year. The only financial stalwart doing employment was Accenture, and that's a City job for $20k tops. Screw that.

    Having worked in some SMEs, I can tell you that my experience is they want stuff that works, that their sole technical bod can fix himself, and screw the billion dollar support contract. They can't afford one.

    This is why collaboratively developed software is so popular with them, they can cut out huge costs by being self-sufficient when things fail. They just need confident management to smooth things over with customers when things fail, as opposed to the cowardly types that just want to pass the buck to some big vendor.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Maybe you should consider going abroad (none / 1) (#454)
    by bc on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 12:41:07 AM EST

    That's what I did (hence the strange time to post at). Saudi Arabian enterprises pay out a fortune, especially in this political climate when its more difficult than ever to convince skilled western folks to come over. Six months on/Six months off too.

    Ultimately you need to consider what is desirable in the marketplace, and where, and be prepared to get those stupid J2EE Architect certs and move to Estonia, and throw all silly principles aside (they don't pay).

    ♥, bc.
    [ Parent ]

    Yes, they do. (none / 1) (#455)
    by it certainly is on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 12:44:48 AM EST

    They will also have your head when things go wrong, even if it's not your fault. The only reason I post with my head intact is because I am in Scotland and Aramco is not.

    BTW: Are you on nightshift in Saudi? It's APAC that's awake just now, not EMEA.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Not exactly (none / 2) (#456)
    by bc on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 01:00:14 AM EST

    You don't really want to know what I've been doing.

    The Estonians won't have your head though. There's a significant ex-pat Scot base there, and they have a roaring economy, tiny taxrates, and high demand. And they're in the EU soon.

    I don't think its all that difficult tog et a job in UKia anyway. I know a guy who works for a small company doing .NET garbage in London, he says they're constantly interviewing programmers (£30-£35k level wages) and they get nothing but utter jokers - usually foreigners of all stripes who can barely speak English. They end up hiring a lot, because they just can't find anybody decent. Like it or lump it, being knowledgable in the various "unclean" frameworks from MS, IBM and Sun and having a gift of the gab is all important. I'm not sure its nearly so black as you paint things, unless you're thinking "I have to get a job in Scotland (despite it not being known as a place of high demand for programmers) in a graduate entry program for a big company doing all the theoretical and clean CS stuff I've been taught (also not in high demand). You've got to be flexible, you've got to market yourself, and you have to become conversant and knowledgable in the skills the market wants, where it wants it.

    ♥, bc.
    [ Parent ]

    When it comes down to it, (none / 1) (#458)
    by it certainly is on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 01:11:57 AM EST

    I'm happier living in a place that makes me happy (i.e. not London), and having a flexible working arrangement which is unrelated to my passions, than it is to write shit code all day and be chastised for it not being shit enough. I'm certainly not looking at "graduate" positions, I was just mentioning that because it's a fact. Big banks aren't hiring direct. They aren't even hiring grads, which they certainly did every year when I was a grad. You either get hired by a joke company who pays you less than half of what they charge the bank for you, or you run your own company and deal with the bank yourself. Damn it, I really need someone who knows business to run a company for me. I'd clean up.

    And there's nothing "unclean" about Java and .NET. I think they're great. It's the half-assed stuff that "enterprise" companies would have you do with them that's shit.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    well duh (none / 0) (#528)
    by Entendre Entendre on Tue May 04, 2004 at 03:17:01 AM EST

    At £35k it's no wonder they're getting dolts. Unless they only expect people to work part-time.

    --
    Reduce firearm violence: aim carefully.
    [ Parent ]

    More than half (none / 1) (#461)
    by bugmaster on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 02:00:20 AM EST

    We used Oracle Intermedia at work. In case you didn't know, Oracle is the leading DB engine on the market; Intermedia is an add-on which allows full-text search of large volumes of text. It's virtually impossible to install and configure; in fact, writing your little text scanner would be about 100x easier. However, once you've got Intermedia configured, it flies. It more than flies; it practically teleports around through wormholes. You can keep throwing text at it and it will keep eating it up like it's nothing.

    See, that's the difference, and the tradeoff. Your engine is fast to configure, easy to understand, but stupid and slow. A commercial engine (Intermedia is just one of them) is hard to configure, hard to understand, but smart and fast. This is a tradeoff because good performance demands a certain degree of complexity (note that I said "a certain" degree; needless complexity is also bad); and yes, complexity is hard to understand and can be more error-prone. Well, it's also expensive in terms of cash.

    Unfortunately, for a popular site like k5, a certain degree of performance is required (f.ex., 10 minutes per search is not acceptable), and thus your options are fairly limited. You don't have to like it, but, like it or not, you'll have to do a lot better than text files on disk -- whether you write the better solution yourself, or buy a time-proven one from someone.
    >|<*:=
    [ Parent ]

    people's, not peoples' (localroger, not writer) nt (none / 0) (#475)
    by unmovic on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 08:05:14 AM EST



    [ Parent ]
    You are fucking retarded (3.00 / 5) (#430)
    by shoeboy on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 08:37:28 PM EST

    It's not rocket science. You create a flat text file image of the entire site. There is no "special file format" involved. If something is edited you don't resize the file, you mark the old copy in the middle as invalid and add the edited copy at the end.

    Because we all know that string parsing is much faster than looking up hashes or calculating the offset in a structured file.

    Oh, wait, that's right, you're doing the string parsing in assembly! It's 3x as fast! So it only takes 10 minutes to serve up a story instead of 30! Thank god for .asm!

    Was the sarcasm obvious enough for you?

    --Shoeboy
    No more trolls!
    [ Parent ]

    obvious, and wrong. /nt (none / 0) (#439)
    by localroger on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 09:03:07 PM EST



    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]
    You're not a programmer, are you? (none / 3) (#431)
    by Dr Phil on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 08:40:16 PM EST

    Do you know how long it takes just for a drive head to scan across something as huge as the K5 db? And then... you say we should create a new copy with every change? No offense roger, but this is the most idiotic thing I've read in a long time. It fucking frightening that you're willing to pretend to know what you're talking about when you so obviously do not.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    I've done it. (none / 3) (#438)
    by localroger on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 09:02:11 PM EST

    Computers today are very, very fast in case you haven't noticed. When I studied CS back around 1980 they taught you how to optimize transfers from magnetic tape reels, so don't tell me how long it takes to move the RW heads. I know the scheme works because I've used it on DB's of comparable size, and with very un-optimized languages like VB. It's amazing the shit you can get away with on a GHz class machine with a GB of RAM and modern mass storage.

    Working with hardware that is limited by comparison -- like 1 MHz 6502's with 16K RAM -- gives you an appreciation for how the machine works you do not get if your first computer was a 80386. I'm sure the first guys who discussed RISC processors got similar hoots of derision.

    It's an easy thing to try, and I've tried it and it works. Have you actually tried it?

    What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that we were wolves with the min
    [ Parent ]

    So you've created a plain-text database (none / 0) (#442)
    by Dr Phil on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 09:33:36 PM EST

    That duplicates a multi-gigabyte file for every change that's made to it?

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    Come back when you can write a search engine. (3.00 / 4) (#451)
    by it certainly is on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 12:10:49 AM EST

    Sometimes people lose sight of the woods for all the trees and I have to let them know.

    The scheme you are proposing is retarded. If I search for the word "cuntrag", I do not want ANYTHING, not even hand-coded assembler, flat scanning the entire site in plain text. This is what reverse word indexes are for. If you're not using one in a large text search, you're insane.

    Imagine all the words used in every comment, diary and article on K5. While their totality reaches the gigabyte level, memorising just what those words are, and a list of references to the entity they're used in, is all you need, and it is thousands of times smaller.

    To get the position of each word in the word index, you could either flat scan a file for it (several megabytes), or you could look up a trie, which would be more than 10 times smaller for the english language.

    Do it. Take a list of lexically ordered words and throw away all the shared prefixes. See how much vastly smaller it is? And with a trie, every comparison you make is a step towards the right answer. No wasted searching.

    In conclusion, please stop trolling.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Good god man (3.00 / 4) (#460)
    by bugmaster on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 01:51:31 AM EST

    Relational databases were invented specifically so that we wouldn't have to do shit like this. Because linear search through flat text files on disk simply does not scale -- seeing as the disk is a sloooooow device.

    See, databases have these things called "indices" (er... "indexes" ?) that associate a list of records (that's right... DBs break up the data into records, such as comments, articles, etc.) with a given word. This way, when you want to search for some word, you only have to search through the index, not the entire database. And the index may even be small enough to load into a hashtable, a tree, or some other fast data structure in memory.

    The bottom line here is, if your algorithm sucks (such as O(n) search through freaking DISK), then no amount of raw assembly will help you. For example, for large data sets, quicksort in VB beats bubble-sort in assembly hands-down.
    >|<*:=
    [ Parent ]

    +3, Insightful. (none / 1) (#466)
    by it certainly is on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 03:56:40 AM EST

    But I wouldn't use a standard database for full-text search, no matter how powerful its indexing was. I would use a search engine designed for full-text search that was integrated with the database.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Man (none / 0) (#517)
    by sllort on Thu Apr 29, 2004 at 10:57:05 PM EST

    Either you've outdone us all, or you're batshit.
    --
    Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
    [ Parent ]
    Databases (none / 0) (#518)
    by dn on Fri Apr 30, 2004 at 02:33:51 AM EST

    Re. trolling: Your comment seemed both earnest and a bit unbelievable. I assumed it was a good troll. (Most of what is called trolling in the depraved latter days is in fact shite. A good troll is a like a good wine, but some so-called trolling is just rotten grape juice.)
    Some high-level tool promises to do magic, and some end user who doesn't understand the low-level nuts and bolts of the magic pushes it past its poorly documented limits.
    That I can agree with.
    There are people who get good performance out of DB's and when they do so in challenging situations they always turn out to be people who have spent a lot of time learning low-level things about how the DB works.
    DBMSes are neither magical nor mysterious. If you want to search a column of data frequently, you put an index on that column, which tells the DBMS to store the column in a binary tree or similar data structure, which structure is very rapidly searchable (typically O(ln(N))). If the DBMS supports it, you can pick an index that is especially good for your dataset and queries (e.g., b-tree of hashes for a bunch of long, unique strings). You write queries so that the DBMS searches "easy" columns (say, Social Security Number, which is unique) before searching "hard" columns (say, ZIP code, which is spectacularly non-unique). Given the simple syntax of SQL, tricking the DBMS into doing queries the "right" way can be interesting, but it isn't magical.

    Better DBMSes analyze the queries, and periodically optimize indices and query interpretation. It's like an optimizing compiler for searches. This is one of the features that makes folks shell out the big bucks for Oracle.

    Another art is that of minimizing round-trip latencies. Starting a new query has a high latency, so you want to minimize the number of queries. Hence the popularity of server-side scripting in some applications (e.g., reports that read 75 tables).

    Oh, and another art is telling the DBMS how much memory to use. Underestimating memory usage by other programs will make the DBMS start paging, which is death to performance. Likewise, letting it constantly reload a "hot" index from disk is bad. This is one of the easiest for a complete idiot to screw up, which is why throwing in gobs of RAM is often the easiest way to solve a performance problem. Again, good DBMSes will analyze queries and do this automatically.

    None of this is magical. You just have to understand how the tool works, which is mainly a matter of knowing basic computer science and reading the manual.

    ...but there comes a time when you need flat text files, plenty of RAM, and assembly language if you are going to get the job done.
    I refer you to The Art of Computer Programming, Volume 3: Sorting and Searching. Using something fast like C or assembler can give you an order of magnitude speed-up. Choosing a good algorithm often gives orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude improvement (seriously: 1010). The other comments about full-text search using tries are spot on.

    Searching DNA data is a good example where algorithms are king, as the data sets are huge (many gigabytes), and exceedingly complex (DNA can be read forwards or backwards, multiple DNA sequences translate to the same amino acids, genes can overlap, and genes can have chunks in the middle that are selectively edited out). Linearly scanning through the data would take 5-60 seconds per search, and require a $30k computer. That is simply unacceptable when hundreds of researchers need to perform millions of queries per day. Doing a full correlation on "interesting" features in a full DNA database would take on the vague order of 10500 calculations for a naive compare-everything-to-everything-else approach. Know thy algorithms or die.

        I ♥
    TOXIC
    WASTE

    [ Parent ]

    I might be out of my league here, but (none / 1) (#353)
    by tzanger on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:07:34 PM EST

    I have never met a generic query engine that could compete with a purpose-written algorithm that is written with an awareness of the RAM and mass storage latencies in the system

    I know for a fact that PostgreSQL lets you tune the planner to take these kinds of factors into account, and I am positive that the Big Bad DBs out there have been doing so for a dog's age.

    I used to think that databases were useless extensions that only tied you down but I learned that reinventing the wheel over and over again in the name of 'better' was a waste of time and effort for almost all values of 'better' -- If your search algo is causing the DB to fall over, you either need to protect or fix the DB, fix the search, or all of the above.

    [ Parent ]

    Bzzt, wrong. (2.20 / 5) (#179)
    by Zerotime on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 02:44:27 AM EST

    Crack cocaine is generally smoked, and so probably won't have too much to do with fucking up your teeth (or, at least, about as much as tobacco would). You're probably thinking of speed, which is quite damaging when taken orally, especially if washed down with alcohol.

    [ Parent ]
    REMINDER: (1.90 / 10) (#176)
    by Estanislao Martínez on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:55:36 AM EST

    Mr. localroger hosts his novel on the k5 server. That is, he gets free hosting from this site. This is a conflict of interest.

    --em
    [ Parent ]

    You know none of this speculation really matters.. (2.80 / 10) (#217)
    by Nigga on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 08:09:15 AM EST

    We can paint a picture of rusty being a noble admin ore completely neglectful... we really have no clue what the truth is... and this is mainly because we're not hearing any answers from him on this stuff. For all we know he's spun out on meth and it wont be long until k5 is dead, he's devorced, and out of a home. Or for all we know, he is laboring away on all of his responsibilities in the best way he can and just doesn't have the right combination of time and care to let all the curious users of the site know what's up, what's going on, etc...

    It seems like he doesn't like to communicate on these issues unless it's a high profile site news that's rather long and well written... but he doesn't understand that the info is more important than the delivery... even just the odd comment here and there in reply to peoples' concerns would do the trick.

    Otherwise we can all sit here and invent rusty fanfic which might be fun and all - but just recognize it to be fanfic and not founded in any sort of solid reality at all. But ironically everyone talks like they do know what's actually going on. It's just stupid.

    --------
    The fuck happened to Nigga?
    [ Parent ]

    Get with the times, man. (none / 0) (#359)
    by Zerotime on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:54:23 PM EST

    Everyone's been writing Rusty/Rob Malda slash for the last year. You must have missed out on the memo or something.

    ---
    "You don't even have to drink it. You just rub it on your hips and it eats its way through to your liver."
    [ Parent ]
    Regarding the CMF (2.50 / 16) (#45)
    by sticky on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:40:34 PM EST

    While I do like to ridicule rusty on occasion about that broken promise, I must say that according to my recollection of the the big "Give Me Money, PLEASE!" drive of 2002, the CMF was mentioned AFTER all of the money was donated. Thus, nobody donated money for the purpose of creating the CMF, since no one had even heard of it. If anyone has evidence to the contrary I will happily stand corrected.


    Don't eat the shrimp.---God
    Oh and +1FP, Meta, Stick -nt- (none / 3) (#47)
    by sticky on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:42:17 PM EST




    Don't eat the shrimp.---God
    [ Parent ]
    on the subject of the CMF (2.75 / 4) (#64)
    by GenerationY on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 03:50:33 PM EST

    One thing I did think when the whole photoshop thing broke out, and in a sense with regard to this article itself, if the CMF was in place it would serve to protect Rusty from this sort of thing. I'd draw a very loose parallel here between the protections you can grab for yourself when you incorporate, say, your consultancy business. Its still you doing the work, you can still claim the credit owed to you on a personal level, but the operation is no longer going to be confused with the individual, its an entity. I don't think that a CMF-umbrella'd K5 would offer anything extra to users, but I do think it would benefit Rusty. And it would be fair enough that it should do so as well.

    [ Parent ]
    No... (2.72 / 11) (#117)
    by Wah on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:52:34 PM EST

    ..it was just given a name after the drive.  It was the point of the fund-raising.
    As it happens, my wife is currently in grad school, getting a Masters degree in Public Policy with a focus on non-profit management. I couldn't have arranged this better if I was trying. Turning K5 into a non-profit will probably end up being her Masters thesis.

    Our mission, as an organization, will be to promote and support online community and collaborative media. Obviously, operating K5 will be the major project of the organization. But when the legal issues are settled and we are an actual non-profit, I plan to start an endowment, which will be used to support any worthy projects in online community building and collaborative media. The endowment will be open to contributions from anyone, and contributing will confer voting rights as to what projects should be funded.

    Becoming a non-profit is not an easy thing. It will probably take at least six months to clear the legal hurdles and fill out all the forms in triplicate. We're doing it, but it's not going to be instant. My wife, who is joining us on a volunteer basis to navigate K5 through the murky waters of re-incorporation, and I will keep good notes about the process, and post articles about how it's going as warranted.

    That's from the 'begging' story.

    Here's the follow-up.

    And the 'follow-through'
    --
    'The Matrix' is a better interpretation of quantum mechanics than Copenhagen.
    [ Parent ]

    Well then (none / 0) (#136)
    by sticky on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 08:02:44 PM EST

    I do stand corrected.  

    Though I'm not sure if not putting solicited donation money towards a stated goal is illegal, it is certainly unethical.

    Everyone should remember that by giving rusty money, they did not enter into any contract to receive something in exchange for the donation.  From what I remember of high school law, this is an essential part of the definition of a legally binding contract.  Unless someone can point to a quote by rusty that by giving money, you are actually buying into (investing) in K5 or the CMF, there probably isn't much in the way of legal recourse.  If, on the other hand, he did state, explicitly or implicitly, that the money was not a donation but an investment, then there is a possibility that he could be sued.  

    Warning: IANAL, but I do like to play one occasionally.


    Don't eat the shrimp.---God
    [ Parent ]

    The fitting death of k5 (1.18 / 11) (#53)
    by stilch on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:51:38 PM EST

    Is to let the trolls devour it and turn it into something like brawl hall.

    I've been here for a year, essentially (2.50 / 4) (#56)
    by RandomLiegh on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:57:03 PM EST

    and it's been a "brawl hall" this whole time.

    ---
    Thought of the week: There is no thought this week.
    ---
    [ Parent ]
    Nah, I trolled a few of them ... (none / 2) (#76)
    by pyramid termite on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 04:54:33 PM EST

    ... onto alt.flame a couple of months ago - K5 could never be as pathetic as Brawl Hall. Hell, I got "plonked" by their leader there with ONE LOUSY POST!!

    On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
    [ Parent ]
    Something is rotten in the state of Kuro5hin (2.35 / 14) (#55)
    by powera on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 02:56:25 PM EST

    There definitely is a problem here. If new accounts are off for a month, the site is in a state of decay. If he can't find someone else to help or won't let them, he should just let it go.

    Ban everyone who voted this down (1.16 / 36) (#63)
    by yayaya on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 03:28:31 PM EST

    I just looked through all their names, and not one of them contributes meaningfully to this site.

    Why don't _you_ leave? (1.60 / 5) (#74)
    by liquidcrystal3 on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 04:41:46 PM EST

    And take pooflinger0x00, pooflinger0x01, RustyIsACo....er and the others with you.

    [ Parent ]
    +1 FP (2.00 / 5) (#144)
    by Dr Phil on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 08:59:05 PM EST

    I noticed that too. It's like an almost-exhaustive list of the crappiest kuro5hits around.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    Rusty, please come back! (1.85 / 7) (#70)
    by Verbophobe on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 04:20:22 PM EST

    Otherwise K5 could turn into Gen[M]ay.  Not that this would be a bad thing.

    Proud member of the Canadian Broadcorping Castration
    Excellent. (1.54 / 11) (#71)
    by it certainly is on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 04:23:51 PM EST

    More meta crap. I'm looking forward to Ed Slocomb's solitary pithy comment which will be here any minute now, petulant and condescending.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.

    You shouldn't do that (none / 1) (#421)
    by bc on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 07:03:20 PM EST

    Using people's real names is extremely nasty and crosses over a line.

    I'm very disapointed in you.

    ♥, bc.
    [ Parent ]

    Betty Cardigan, you old troll. (none / 0) (#449)
    by it certainly is on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 11:17:09 PM EST

    I called out Rumpelstiltskin years ago, he insists it's nothing special and it doesn't affect him in the slightest. Who am I to argue?

    Besides, if I just said "RobotSlave", Ed would post with "Bloodless Creep" instead, or one of his many sock puppet accounts.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    That is sheer nonsense (none / 0) (#457)
    by bc on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 01:10:01 AM EST

    You leaked info about me elsewhere on this page. Whether or not I'm OK with that info being released, the point is it isn't your prerogative to make that decision for me, and that's bloody irritating.

    I'm sure RS felt much the same. You should observe the proper code of omerta over real life infos. It's common decency - and yes, there is a certain line from "virtual" to "real" that that sort of nastyness crosses which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    ♥, bc.
    [ Parent ]

    What can I say? (none / 1) (#459)
    by it certainly is on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 01:39:50 AM EST

    We have different value systems. I'm happy with anything I put on the internet being tied back to me in real life. I'm happy with anything I tell to anyone to be publically announced. I have secrets, of course, but they actually are secret. Nobody knows them but me.

    The only way to be safe from my "leaking" is to have nothing to leak. Don't tell me. Don't tell anyone. Enjoy your prison.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    An ethic of (none / 1) (#463)
    by qpt on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 02:51:20 AM EST

    "I'll do what I can" really isn't an ethic at all.

    Domine Deus, creator coeli et terrae respice humilitatem nostram.
    [ Parent ]

    Refusing to sign NDAs is an ethic. [n/t] (none / 1) (#464)
    by it certainly is on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 03:39:26 AM EST



    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    rusty, 22 months ago (2.64 / 25) (#72)
    by ElMiguel on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 04:28:09 PM EST

    "Over the course of past week, I've seen a lot of explanations both here and around the net of exactly what we were raising money for.

    I think the clearest way I can put it is: you just purchased Kuro5hin.org."

    Do you remember?.

    I think this is a better quote. (2.70 / 17) (#75)
    by TheOnlyCoolTim on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 04:47:54 PM EST

    "Thank you, on my own part and for everyone who loves this community now, and those who will discover it and love it in the future."

    Right now no one can discover it and love it. The future is dead.

    Tim
    "We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
    [ Parent ]

    I have been asked to publish an important notice (1.02 / 44) (#78)
    by David Nelson on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 05:10:10 PM EST

    The following is the text of an email message that accompanied the source.

    From: rms@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Richard Stallman)
    To: hikichi@sra.co.jp
    Subject: a few ideas for last seminar
    Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 18:18:16 -0500

    Here is the song. Please post it.

    The Free Software Song
    [To the melody of "Sadi Moma"]

    Join us now and share the software;
    You'll be free, hackers, you'll be free.
    x2

    Hoarders may get piles of money,
    That is true, hackers, that is true.
    But they cannot help their neighbors;
    That's not good, hackers, that's not good.


    When we have enough free software
    At our call, hackers, at our call,
    We'll throw out those dirty licenses
    Ever more, hackers, ever more.

    Join us now and share the software;
    You'll be free, hackers, you'll be free.
    x2

    Melody of Sadi Moma, a Bulgarian dance tune.
    (Dash means previous note continues;
    there are seven beats per measure.)

    D-CB-A- B-CBAG- G--A--B C--B-BD A--A--- CDCB---
    D-CB-A- B-CBAG- G--A--B C--B-BD A--A--- A------

    Copyright 1993 Richard Stallman
    Verbatim redistribution permitted
    if this notice is preserved.

    _____
    Our goal is to provide you with information that is both useful and informative to help you take an active part in our great representative democracy.


    hey trolls, should we +3 this or 0 it? (1.46 / 13) (#126)
    by SilentChris on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:25:21 PM EST

    im confused by the ratings. tex 3d it but joyce 0d it.

    [ Parent ]
    THE TROLL FACTION IS SEGMENTING!! (none / 0) (#379)
    by noogie on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 07:55:07 AM EST




    *** ANONYMIZED BY THE EVIL KUROFIVEHIN MILITARY JUNTA ***
    [ Parent ]
    Pathetic (2.40 / 59) (#80)
    by momocrome on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 05:14:19 PM EST

    Every last one of you grousing in these comments should be especially humiliated to have taken part in such a pathetic wankfest.

    I can reduce this all to a key issue: Dissatisfaction with your own ability to contribute leaves little more than complaining about the management.

    Try it on for size. You'll find that it fits. Each and every bullet point, save one, is invalid and idiotic.  I can run through them real quick, perhaps i can help one of you poor souls step up into sentience:


    • The CMF: A possibly good idea formed after the 'big donation drive'. Has absolutely no effect on the atmosphere here one way or the other.
    • Dealing with trolls: That's what ratings are for, you morons. This is a user-mediated discussion site. Every time Rusty tries to accede to demands to 'fix this or that', it merely engenders further griping.  In short: if you don't like trolls, rate them the fuck down and move on.
    • Comment Search: This is the one and only subject that merits any sort of serious discussion around here, and the truth of the matter is that Google does a fine job, and is comparable in capability to the search function of untold other sites (mainly because it's so common to just use google for site searches instead of sloggin through needless hours of implementation heartbreak)
    • Sponsorship System: For fuck's sake, the sponsorship issue was met with nearly universal contempt when it was proposed. So Rusty smartly holds off, and you wankers turn it in to another point to bitch about. If you'd only stop to think for a minute (and I know it's difficult for some of you), Rusty will likely wait until the current furor dies down and his mood is reasonable, before affecting any changes or lifting the moratorium on new accounts. He's doing the wise thing by holding off.
    • Monthly Updates:He tried them. They were interesting to read, but the abusive nature of the comments were tedious and hurtful, more often than not. He then moved to a policy of 'fuck it' it seems, and for good reason, too. And since nothing concrete seems to be happening (thank GOD), what's the point?
    • New Features:There is more than enough by way of premium features that the demand for more is straight lame. Shut the fuck up. Don't subscribe if the price doesn't match your idea of the value.

    In short, this site was specifically designed to be what the readers make of it. Take a look around, you pathetic wretches. You've fucked it up. It's hardly Rusty's fault that you are too weak minded to contribute legitimately.

    "Give a wide berth to all that foam and spray." - - Lucian, The Way to Write History

    That said (2.25 / 16) (#100)
    by mcc on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:26:51 PM EST

    While I agree with you fully, the continued indefinite closure of new account creation is a legitimate concern, worrying, and almost certain to have negative effects on the site in the long term.

    When "the long term" begins is the question, of course, but at some point this goes from being a reasonable temporary preventative measure to being just a closed discussion site.

    [ Parent ]

    Nobody asked me an sponsorship (none / 2) (#122)
    by vqp on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:03:12 PM EST

    so far, should I see a doctor?. I don't even know if I'm able to sponsor somebody.. (I fell asleep after the third paragraph of Rusty's new rules)

    happiness = d(Reality - Expectations) / dt

    [ Parent ]
    Well yeah (3.00 / 6) (#145)
    by ghjm on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:01:19 PM EST

    I'm usually pretty oblivious to these things, but a few months ago it became obvious even to me that this site was on the way downhill. But I'm not seeing much discussion of what I perceive to be the real reason this is happening, or what to do about it, because nobody seems to be looking at it from the perspective of the vast, overwhelming majority of people who generate web traffic to this web site, who do not and will not ever post anything.

    These people want only two things:

    One: Interesting stuff to read.
    Two: Actually, that's it. That's the only thing.

    So what have we set up here? We've built a system for voting down content, and as the thresholds and social pressures and nuanced aspects of the queue have made it more difficult to ever actually get anything posted, guess what? There's far less of anything worth reading on the site. Unless you count the endless navel-gazing of the diary section, which I suppose has its constituents.

    Most blogs provide endless unsourced rambling on topics that the authors don't understand and arguably shouldn't be writing about. What k5 has done is put that level of achievement into an editorial board.

    -Graham

    [ Parent ]

    I don't (1.81 / 11) (#151)
    by mcc on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:26:23 PM EST

    I generally agree with what you've said, but a couple comments.

    I don't think the declining quality/quantity of articles on the site can be blamed on increasing editorial standards-- if anything the editorial standards have gotten more lax (it seems pretty obvious Rusty lowered the post-after-48-hours thresholds dramatically sometime recently, there have been multiple stories voted to SP with a final score of less than 20 recently) and as long as you use the edit queue, editorial groupthink isn't really a problem.

    It really is just that there's less interesting stuff being submitted to the queue. There's fewer things being submitted, and a greater percentage of it is of the shallow, MLP sort. And it's getting worse. The reasons for this seem pretty obvious to me: there aren't as many people here. People have been leaving since autumn. I don't know why this is, though. There was a big falloff that started the problem that was probably becuase of the month or so of near-perpetual downtime that happened about the same time, but there's been a more slow and steady drop among the group of people who actually post articles since then that I don't know how to explain, and I don't know how to go about stopping. I can tell you this, though: I am just about certain it isn't because the comment search function is broken.

    Anyway, it's tempting to observe that the queue is a barrier to article posting and conclude that it's the barrier to the kinds of articles we all want to see, but the thing is the queue is the only thing that differentiates the front page from the diary sections. You do see occationally worthwhile stuff being hidden by the queue process, but the thing is the other extreme wouldn't be good either; few people would want to read a K5 consisting of the flood that's in the queue either. The articles killed by the queue are just the price we have to pay for a front page occationally containing articles written by accounts other than James A. C. Joyce. K5 has a serious problem but I don't think the editorial standards are the point to attack it at.

    [ Parent ]

    Watching K5 fail... (none / 0) (#534)
    by skyknight on Sat May 29, 2004 at 07:35:52 AM EST

    is sort of like watching a bridge fail after having one of its pylons give way. Say you have a 50k lbs structure to support, and ten pylons to do it. Each pylon has to carry 5k lbs. Let's further stipulate that the pylons are designed to hold more than 5k lbs, but that the amount each pylon can carry is not equal.

    Suppose the bridge has an excessive force applied to it, and one of the pylons, the weakest one, buckles and breaks. Now what happens? Well, now you're left with only nine pylons, and they have to carry the weight that should have been held by ten. This is clearly even worse than the original overloading of ten, and the next pylon will buckle and break, more quickly and violently than the first one did. This process will continue, with successive pylons snapping like twigs, until it all comes crashing down.



    It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
    [ Parent ]
    You are an idiot,LOL! (1.41 / 17) (#125)
    by omghax on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:24:36 PM EST

    Sponsorship System: For fuck's sake, the sponsorship issue was met with nearly universal contempt when it was proposed. So Rusty smartly holds off, and you wankers turn it in to another point to bitch about.

    You're an idiot. This is like getting into a car crash on the freeway, and knowing that you shouldn't move a car immediately after a crash, you leave it there for the next 2 months, blocking traffic.

    Idiot.

    I put the "LOL" in phiLOLigcal leadership - vote for OMGHAX for CMF president!
    [ Parent ]

    no (none / 2) (#128)
    by momocrome on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:28:05 PM EST

    it isn't.

    "Give a wide berth to all that foam and spray." - - Lucian, The Way to Write History
    [ Parent ]
    I'm afraid it is (2.14 / 7) (#131)
    by Stick on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:40:19 PM EST

    The mob has spoken.


    ---
    Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
    [ Parent ]
    sorry stick (2.28 / 7) (#147)
    by momocrome on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:07:17 PM EST

    the only thing 'the mob' is doing is riffing on the theme laid down by rabble-rousing assholes like yourself. This story isn't clever, or funny, or earnest or even accurate. Your just doing your best to make this place too fucking miserable for Rusty to even bother with.

    That's all you and fuckers like you can ever hope to accomplish. And it's because that's all you are able to do.

    "Give a wide berth to all that foam and spray." - - Lucian, The Way to Write History
    [ Parent ]

    What the hell? (2.28 / 7) (#153)
    by Dr Phil on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:32:00 PM EST

    In what way is this article at all dishonest? Looks like about 80% of K5 wanted it on the FP, for one thing. There's nothing "evil" about analysing the Rusty situation, or anything bad about saying "negative things". This attitude of yours is almost child-like, where everybody has to do our best to support our father figure and pretend like nothing's bad, nothing's bad and if you just believe that it'll all get better. Seriously man, open your eyes.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    You are stuck (2.20 / 5) (#160)
    by momocrome on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 10:30:54 PM EST

    let me help you.

    It is fine to analyze the situation. It is O.K. to say negative things, as they are warranted. But in this situation, it is a perverse obsession for some of you, and it is dishonest in that most of you simply relish the chaos and the opportunity to sow dissension. There is nothing constructive or positive in stick's article, merely lambasting for the sake of it.

    I don't know about you, but people that piss and moan with no intention of solving the problems are a serious aggravation. If you don't feel that way, fine. But it makes you out to be just another wretch destroying the site instead of doing something to solve the problems.

    Ah, but I supposed I skipped over the bit where I call for people to quit bitching and do something to make this place worth saving. I consider that obvious, and so it's easy for me to miss. But seriously, many of the problems here are cultural, not infrastructure.

    The only legitimate thing to worry about is whether account creation will be reinstated, and I for one am happy to see it suspended, in the hopes that most of you peons get bored and wander off.

    And for the record, I've not once said anything about "evil", and I have to wonder what you meant by your quote marks.(?)

    "Give a wide berth to all that foam and spray." - - Lucian, The Way to Write History
    [ Parent ]

    This story isn't about culural problems (2.28 / 7) (#166)
    by Dr Phil on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 12:02:43 AM EST

    It's about K5's lack of competent administation. Maybe you don't think this is an issue, in which case fine, whatever. But there's nothing anyone here can do themselves to solve the problem short of what this story says. When you're talking about is the same tired old spiel about how K5's changing and it's bad and blah blah blah. What does any of that have to do with us not having a right to complain about Rusty's administratorial performance? And how are we supposed to do something in his place when we have no administratorial power? We can't unban users he's banned, we can't fund a CMF with the proceeds from K5's advertising, we can't write monthy site updates about what's going on with the countless promises he's made. I don't know what you're trying to argue here but it doesn't any make sense within the context of this story. The fact is, Rusty controls his site and its direction more than any single other person, and yet the vast majority of people here (who actually make K5 work by producing the content) are unhappy with what he's doing. How do you change administratorial behavior without engaging in what's happening here? Rusty's not going to change his behavior if nobody complains about it, and people DO want change.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    You are incorrect. (none / 3) (#255)
    by killmepleez on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:38:50 AM EST

    Comment Search: This is the one and only subject that merits any sort of serious discussion around here, and the truth of the matter is that Google does a fine job, and is comparable in capability to the search function of untold other sites (mainly because it's so common to just use google for site searches instead of sloggin through needless hours of implementation heartbreak)
    You are, quite simply, wrong.

    According to your info page, "momocrome has posted 218 comments, 2 stories, and 20 diaries". I challenge you to find all 218 of your comments using either Google or Kuro5hin's built-in comment_by function. Good Luck. Please reply to this message with "I give up you are right" in the subject line, once you've realized that your own comments are forever lost.

    See my previous post on this subject here

    __
    "I instantly realized that everything in my life that I thought was unfixable was totally fixable - except for having just jumped."
    --from "J
    [ Parent ]
    To clarify (none / 1) (#388)
    by killmepleez on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 11:32:38 AM EST

    No one's complete comment history is available on K5 or through Google.

    __
    "I instantly realized that everything in my life that I thought was unfixable was totally fixable - except for having just jumped."
    --from "J
    [ Parent ]
    Actually... (none / 0) (#533)
    by ubernostrum on Sat May 29, 2004 at 01:34:09 AM EST

    No one's complete comment history is available on K5 or through Google.

    My first comment can be found through this search in the archive. Scrolling back and forth through the archived comments reveals 427 of my (at the moment) 750 posted comments, running from that first comment at the bottom of the page to my first archived comment which shows up here.

    Now, that accounts for 427 of 750 so there ought to be 323 comments that aren't archived. Starting here and working back to here I can, amazingly, view 323 comments of mine which are not currently archived. What a shocker.




    --
    You cooin' with my bird?
    [ Parent ]
    say it ain't so rusty... (1.54 / 11) (#86)
    by joeyo on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 05:35:29 PM EST

    say it aint so.

    --
    "Give me enough variables to work with, and I can probably do away with the notion of human free will." --

    Torm By Ideals (1.35 / 14) (#94)
    by n8f8 on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:12:01 PM EST

    Maybe Rusty is too upset over some big internal struggle between wanting to foster a communist envirnoment to spread his ideals on the internet and the reality of making money for a living.

    Sig: (This will get posted after your comments)
    Funny! (1.75 / 4) (#104)
    by Agent1 on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:28:50 PM EST

    foster
    No pun intended, I'm sure.


    -Agent1
    "Thats the whole point of the internet, to slander people anonymously." - Anonymous
    [ Parent ]
    It definitely is over (2.47 / 19) (#98)
    by omghax on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:20:30 PM EST

    Check out the Kuro5hin stats page and see whats going on. Notice how traffic in April is DOWN SUBSTANTIALLY! Tell me, do those 5 trolls that have been banned constitute 15% of the traffic? It seems pretty unlikely. More and more people are leaving this site and going to alternatives where the site administrators clearly care about the website.

    At this point, all I can say is that I am so happy that I never paid a penny into this website - I'm not a sucker like a lot of people here claim to be.

    And to the idiot below who said that Google search was just as good as comment search - not even close. Google doesn't necessarily spider every page (see hidden SIDs) and the ability to search only diaries, comments, users, and stories is indespensible.

    I put the "LOL" in phiLOLigcal leadership - vote for OMGHAX for CMF president!

    May I be the first to point out... (none / 3) (#101)
    by melia on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:27:08 PM EST

    ...April is not yet over?
    Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
    [ Parent ]
    And tell me why that would matter to daily avg? (2.83 / 6) (#116)
    by big fat idiot on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:49:19 PM EST

    The stat's page shows that the daily average number of hits going down. Please explain to me how this number would be substantially impacted by the month of April not being over yet.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (none / 3) (#119)
    by melia on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:01:01 PM EST

    Well, anything could happen in the next few hours. The lowest number of hits in March was ~43000, the highest ~180000. With that sort of deviation a prediction for April doesn't hold much water.

    Incidentally, I agree with the assertion that K5 is decreasing in popularity, just not that April is looking particularly grim.

    Although, it could be that i'm trying to cover my dumb ass. ;)
    Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
    [ Parent ]

    Possibly. (1.50 / 8) (#142)
    by ubernostrum on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 08:37:39 PM EST

    Tell me, do those 5 trolls that have been banned constitute 15% of the traffic?

    I'd always figured that they jerked off to their own k5 posts, reloading with each stroke, which would certainly constitute a heck of a lot of traffic. The dropoffs on the stats page are the periods where they had to stop and clean the jizz off the screen.




    --
    You cooin' with my bird?
    [ Parent ]
    Are they even gone? (none / 2) (#265)
    by Big Sexxy Joe on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:31:39 PM EST

    Hint: No

    I'm like Jesus, only better.
    Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour
    [ Parent ]
    Slashdot cares? (2.50 / 8) (#165)
    by drwav on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 11:58:19 PM EST

    Slashdot?

    <i>cares</i> about the site?

    Man, that is a good one.

    [ Parent ]

    Not much of a statistician, are you? (none / 2) (#185)
    by skyknight on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 05:18:41 AM EST

    Not only is April not over yet, but you are drawing conclusions based on a graph that doesn't even show an April from a previous year. Has it occurred to you that substantial fluctuation could occur from month to month, reflecting the characteristics of various times of the year, e.g. end of semester crunches to do projects and study for finals for the student segment of K5? I think you have a promising future as a political pollster.

    That being said, K5 is dying. :-(



    It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
    [ Parent ]
    K5 stats (2.75 / 4) (#261)
    by driph on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:16:13 PM EST

    K5 was picking up something like, spread out over the year, 1000 new users a month. That's a lot of people who can't sign up anymore, which amounts to a lot of people who aren't repeating their visits. But yeah, K5 page hits have been on the decline for a while.

    --
    Vegas isn't a liberal stronghold. It's the place where the rich and powerful gamble away their company's pension fund and strangle call girls in their hotel rooms. - Psycho Dave
    [ Parent ]
    Users or accounts? (none / 2) (#279)
    by CwazyWabbit on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 02:55:20 PM EST

    With the terminally bored scripting signups and whatnot, how do you know how many users were being added?
    --
    "But here's the thing: if people hand me ammunition, what kind of misanthrope would I be if I didn't use it?" - Sarah-Katherine
    [ Parent ]
    I'm sure (none / 1) (#280)
    by Cro Magnon on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 03:00:21 PM EST

    some of the "1,000 users" were bogus, but others were probably genuine new users. Some of those new users would be trolls or lurkers, but others would be productive K5 posters. We might be missing out on the next localroger or maybe the next Cro Magnon (no cracks from the peanut gallery).
    Information wants to be beer.
    [ Parent ]
    Accounts. [nt] (none / 1) (#282)
    by driph on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 03:08:41 PM EST



    --
    Vegas isn't a liberal stronghold. It's the place where the rich and powerful gamble away their company's pension fund and strangle call girls in their hotel rooms. - Psycho Dave
    [ Parent ]
    Any reason why the visits are out of whack? (none / 0) (#324)
    by SoupIsGoodFood on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 08:17:26 PM EST

    Apparently, the average number of daily visitors since May last year has been 0, with a 1 average in October. October has also had the highest monthly total; 53 visitors.

    I does this mean that all the people I've been talking to over the last year have been kurobots?

    [ Parent ]

    I believe (none / 0) (#325)
    by Dr Phil on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 08:42:23 PM EST

    It's due to the fact that K5 runs behind a proxy server, so all the connections come from one IP.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    Yes (none / 0) (#351)
    by ffrinch on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:57:55 PM EST

    The proxy stats page has the real count.

    -◊-
    "I learned the hard way that rock music ... is a powerful demonic force controlled by Satan." — Jack Chick
    [ Parent ]
    trolling is way down; congrats Rusty (1.72 / 18) (#102)
    by tiger on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:27:15 PM EST

    Trolling on K5 was completely out of control. It was so bad that I was no longer reading the comment section of any article, because the signal-to-noise ratio was so low. In February I remember realizing that I no longer read comments and took a look again: for whatever article I looked at, every other comment was nothing but name calling, a crude ad hominem. Kind of like this comment in this current article, Hay, Rusty, you miserable piece of shit! by the troll James A C Joyce. But instead of only a few comments in the current article like this, imagine how it would be if every other comment was like this, name-calling whoever they are replying to. That is how it was just a month ago, before Rusty announced his new policy: User Sponsorship and Managed Growth (dated March 25, 2004).

    So Rusty took action. First he closed registration to prevent the trolls from getting new accounts, and then he passed the death sentence on a number of trolls: wiping out their accounts and their comments. And it has worked. I find myself reading comments again. Good work Rusty. And while you are at it, add James A C Joyce to the bit bucket. His comments were the only pollution I noticed in the current article.

    --
    Americans :— Say no to male genital mutilation. In Memory of the Sexually Mutilated Child



    Hay, tiger, you miserable piece of shit! (1.16 / 25) (#105)
    by Penrod Pooch on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:29:35 PM EST

    STFU

    [ Parent ]
    Dude (2.00 / 7) (#111)
    by melia on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 06:39:02 PM EST

    I read your website. Not good.
    Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
    [ Parent ]
    Actually trolling is up (2.88 / 9) (#174)
    by godix on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:18:47 AM EST

    It's just changed from amusing trolls to people comparing Apple with Hitler, a psychological justification for furries, a long winded troll saying 'don't play the lottory idiots', and 'The Jesus Chainsaw Massacre'. (ok, ok the last one was amusing). The recent change in K5 is like switching from a high school jocks sense of humor to a 10 year old nerds sense of humor. While it is quite a change it's not anything to be happy about, unless of course you happen to be a 10 year old nerd.

    Thank god I'm worth more than SilentChris

    [ Parent ]
    it's so much better. (none / 0) (#302)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:33:17 PM EST

    much of the trolling that's happening now is *provocative*, trying to make me think, rather than trying to shock me.

    It's great. These are the trolls we want. The other trolls were just being pains in the ass.

    [ Parent ]

    It makes you think?!?!? (none / 1) (#339)
    by godix on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:10:57 PM EST

    Dude if comparing Apple to nazis made you think anything further than 'what a fucking moron' then I've seriously overestamated your intellect.

    Thank god I'm worth more than SilentChris

    [ Parent ]
    Comparing apple to nazis (none / 0) (#348)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:45:18 PM EST

    That one was pretty dumb, yeah. But I didn't think it was a troll. :)

    I was talking about the jesus chainsaw massacre one. It had a great point, and it was beautiful executed. The best troll i've seen in a long time. (If it even was a troll - I wasn't sure about that, either. As it should be: that's the mark of a great troll. :))

    [ Parent ]

    Of course it was a troll (none / 0) (#364)
    by godix on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 12:22:36 AM EST

    It was circletimessquare. He is the greatest troll ever on K5 just because he's convinced most people he isn't a troll and even after being around here for years he can still get 10 bites with a three sentance post. The guy can drive biters into conniption fits so quickly that I'm suprised that RMG and all the other pathetically obvious trolls don't worship him.

    Thank god I'm worth more than SilentChris

    [ Parent ]
    agreed (none / 0) (#412)
    by SocratesGhost on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 05:30:22 PM EST

    I for one love to bite on CTS's trolling since it helps me to work through my own ways of thinking about an issue. He's troll enough to challenge people, but intelligent enough to fake sincerity. It's a great mix.

    -Soc
    I drank what?


    [ Parent ]
    i do like circletimessquare. (none / 0) (#501)
    by rmg on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 05:50:24 PM EST

    i based much of my style on him in the beginning.

    i should point out that other than circletimessquare, i get more bites than any other troll here. my right wing trolls always get at least seven replies (unless the story they're attached to gets voted down or something like that).

    i don't like to slink around and pretend i'm not a troll. i prefer to announce it. my "code of ethics" if you will does allow me to troll without being up front about it. it's like tripping someone who's blindfolded. i prefer to show them the line and see if they walk over it.

    the simple fact is that the average user around here, like you, doesn't get rmg style trolling at all. it's very meta and very contextual. it is about deconstructing the troll.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    OK, you got me. (1.92 / 13) (#121)
    by vyruss on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:01:55 PM EST

    I admit it. There is no Rusty. I thought him up a few years ago when I decided to create this site in order to avoid direct criticism. It's just that I haven't had the time to play with this idea anymore.

    Sorry.

    • PRINT CHR$(147)

    I call for a coup (2.26 / 15) (#127)
    by Wah on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:26:08 PM EST

    If the Board, elected by you, decide I'm superfluous and not needed to run the site, I will be fired. One of the points of having an open structure is so that I'm not the one making that decision anymore.

    Would you like to play a game?

    We have a number of options with which to proceed. if a change in leadership is desired.
    --
    'The Matrix' is a better interpretation of quantum mechanics than Copenhagen.

    he's... (2.80 / 21) (#130)
    by kpaul on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 07:35:20 PM EST

    here... if you look.

    while i'd love monthly updates, it's no big deal really, as the site is more about the users than rusty himself (no offense...)

    kinda takes away from the monocle dictator image, tho, no?

    looking forward to seeing how sponsorships affect the site. i know before he mentioned it i pointed a lot of people to this site as a place to get their words published...


    2014 Halloween Costumes

    OT (1.14 / 7) (#143)
    by Psychopath on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 08:38:04 PM EST

    Hello kpaul
    --
    The only antidote to mental suffering is physical pain. -- Karl Marx
    [ Parent ]
    yeah. (none / 2) (#301)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:31:59 PM EST

    while i'd love monthly updates, it's no big deal really, as the site is more about the users than rusty himself (no offense...)

    Absolutely. Rusty would not take offense at that; he's been saying that all-along.

    I would like monthly updates just because it would make it feel like there was more communication and would go a long way towards soothing the simmering bubbles of discontent. But I totally understand why they don't happen.

    [ Parent ]

    I would like (2.50 / 4) (#305)
    by ZorbaTHut on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:54:59 PM EST

    either monthly updates, or for Rusty to stop saying there will be monthly updates.

    I'd love constant updates.

    I can handle silence.

    It's this constant promise-breaking/lying that, I think, grates on everyone's nerves.

    If you're running a site, a business, a group of people, whatever - when you say you'll do something, you *do it*.

    [ Parent ]

    i have to disagree... (none / 1) (#331)
    by kpaul on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:34:49 PM EST

    if the trolls could ever be placated by something as simple as a monthly site-news, well, they weren't trolls in the first place ;)

    that is, there will always be discontent of some sort on k5...


    2014 Halloween Costumes
    [ Parent ]

    the trolls aren't the people i'm talking about. (none / 1) (#338)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:08:58 PM EST

    it's the run-of-the-mill lurker vote that i'm considering.

    [ Parent ]
    oh. sorry. was my attempt for tonight to seem ... (none / 1) (#343)
    by kpaul on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:24:19 PM EST

    witty ;)


    2014 Halloween Costumes
    [ Parent ]

    The photoshopping of rustys wife (1.60 / 20) (#141)
    by mduell on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 08:27:55 PM EST

    I dont see why it's such a big deal. His wife got photoshopped, so what? Politicians get photoshopped all the time. I have a gallery on my site for photoshoppings of my friends.

    His reaction to it, on the other hand, is a big deal. No new members is quite frankly the crappiest policy I've heard of in a long time.

    If anyone has a copy of the photoshopped pic, email it to mduell-kuro5hin@slacker.com

    I haven't seen it.. (none / 3) (#148)
    by Psychopath on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:12:52 PM EST

    ..was it this one or what?
    --
    The only antidote to mental suffering is physical pain. -- Karl Marx
    [ Parent ]
    I hope rusty doesn't pull a '2600' on me. (none / 2) (#281)
    by it certainly is on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 03:04:41 PM EST

    • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_site
    • "Last Measure"
    • "Rustina"


    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    You could have at least (none / 0) (#372)
    by finality on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 02:23:45 AM EST

    told him to disable javascript first.
    This account has been anonymised. If you can give a good reason why, email rusty@kuro5hin.org, as he is obviously lacking one.
    [ Parent ]
    You're over-reacting. (2.59 / 27) (#149)
    by Another Scott on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:18:39 PM EST

    Rusty's done an amazing job with this site. It's a shame that he has to put up with posts like this.

    You say: While normally I would say he is under no obligation to keep these promises we did donate over $30,000 to assist him in doing them.

    I was one who subscribed, and you don't speak for me. I donated to allow Rusty to keep the site running however he saw fit.

    If you don't like the code, change it yourself. It's open source.

    If you don't like the way he manages things, suck it up, go elsewhere or volunteer to be an admin.

    Just because you subscribed, that doesn't mean you have rights to demand Rusty's time.

    Rather than whining, do something productive. Constructive criticism and suggestions are fine. Attempting to provoke some sort of action is childish.

    My $0.02.

    Regards,
    Scott.

    What is this, Sesame Street? (1.91 / 12) (#150)
    by Dr Phil on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:20:46 PM EST

    Welcome to the real world buddy, where people do whatever they have to do to get something done.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    No, this is Peyton Place (2.58 / 12) (#154)
    by pyramid termite on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:33:50 PM EST

    Where people get as dramatic and long winded as they can about shit that a sensible person would have learned to live with or left behind ages ago.

    On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
    [ Parent ]
    Whose comment (1.83 / 6) (#155)
    by Dr Phil on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:39:12 PM EST

    was long-winded, again?

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    Quite a few have been ... (2.68 / 19) (#159)
    by pyramid termite on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 10:23:11 PM EST

    ... not to mention the article itself. It's one long soap opera, don't you know? "As K5 Churns" ... "Like trolls in the internet, these are the whines of our lives."

    All we need now are Roman and Stefano to go at it ... Or better yet, Rusty gets kidnapped by slashdotters, hits his head on his hijacked yacht and forgets his password and identity and can't get anyone to sponsor him. Meanwhile, Tex Bigballs discovers Michael Moore's body in the swamp with a note in trhurler's handwriting that confesses to the crime - "He walked in on me and his mother; it was self defence" ... and Jin Wicked aka butterbean comes back and says, "one of you men fathered MY BABY!!! And his balls were BIG!!"

    Meanwhile, in a seedy office across town, Dr. Phil gets a needle full of heroin out and ...

    On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
    [ Parent ]
    It was duxup [n/t] (2.62 / 8) (#175)
    by it certainly is on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:37:40 AM EST



    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Hmm... (none / 2) (#199)
    by skyknight on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 06:25:20 AM EST

    and all this time I thought it was my mother for whom trhurler burned.

    It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
    [ Parent ]
    yay! (none / 0) (#300)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:30:26 PM EST

    ... not to mention the article itself. It's one long soap opera, don't you know? "As K5 Churns" ... "Like trolls in the internet, these are the whines of our lives."

    That's *so* beautiful. :) Thank you for making me smile. :)

    [ Parent ]

    I think you're missing a point (2.80 / 5) (#157)
    by regeya on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 09:43:34 PM EST

    I was one who subscribed, and you don't speak for me. I donated to allow Rusty to keep the site running however he saw fit.

    That's incredibly . . . mature. Yeah, I'd say it is. Think about what would happen if a print publication acted that way, though. What if you started a newspaper, managed to get several subscribers by catering to, say, people who leaned toward libertarianism, and then after you got a few subscribers, reduced the content to just every kooky letter-to-the-editor average psycho? Would you expect to keep your subscribers?

    I wouldn't, because people are willing to pay for a certain level of quality. For instance, I wasn't willing to pay for a subscription because nobody was willing to take any action to make kuro5hin what the banner at the top of the page said it was. Example: for a long time if you mentioned "Linux" in any way in an article, it was bound to go down in flames, with the article hanging around a little longer if it had a suitable amount of RMS/ESR bashing. Farl's statuatory rape case story fared better than most tech stories. Now, I'd be willing to help pay to keep "Technology and culture, from the trenches" going, even if it was mostly "culture." But it's not. It's whining about Bush, whining from morons who can't differentiate between "U.S. policy" and "Americans," and toilet humor. If Rusty is perfectly content to keep things at the current level, I'm more than happy to do my part to let the site die. Happily, I don't have to do a thing to let that happen.

    [ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
    [ Parent ]

    maybe you haven't been paying attention (1.25 / 12) (#161)
    by rmg on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 10:33:23 PM EST

    i've tried to volunteer to be an admin over and over. i've tried to offer whatever help i could. my attempts have been ignored.

    the problem is that the site clearly has issues and, contrary to the stated ideals of the site, all discussion on what actually happens is completely closed. input is largely ignored (or at very least, not acknowledged) and policy is handed down suddenly without warning or discussion.

    people want to run a tight ship and get rid of crap, but the mechanisms are not there. there's no way to deal with modbombing or diary crapflooding, which have led to countless pointless diaries and comments about modbombers and an all troll all the time diary section that has driven off much of the core userbase.

    so there are some things to discuss. rusty needs to level with the users rather than constantly ignore them.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    Contrary to popular opinon ... (none / 2) (#298)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:29:19 PM EST

    Contrary to the stated ideals of the site, all discussion on what actually happens is completely closed. input is largely ignored (or at very least, not acknowledged) and policy is handed down suddenly without warning or discussion.

    That's not the case, although I can see why it would be easy to think that.

    From where I stand, the loudness with which you promote that meme and project a negative view of the site is why your attempts have been ignored. :)

    [ Parent ]

    some would say (none / 2) (#326)
    by rmg on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:04:42 PM EST

    the view i present is a realistic one and the problem with the admins of this site is their belief in a fantasy k5 where the problems i talk about don't exist.

    if your approach is to ignore negative views, that is to say ones you don't like, then it is no wonder that people are frustrated. if your approach is to prefer a "positive" view in which the users are at fault and there is nothing the admins can or should do to help the situation, again, frustration is inevitable.

    and on the policy making issue, yes, it certainly is the case, but i can see why you, an admin, might easily think otherwise.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    Right back at you. :) (none / 0) (#341)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:13:53 PM EST

    your approach is to ignore negative views, that is to say ones you don't like, then it is no wonder that people are frustrated.

    *grin* I didn't say I ignore negative views or views that I dislike, and I don't think Rusty does either. :) I love views I dislike.

    What bugs me about your way of expressing them is they seem to operate from a preconception that everything is broken, rather than from a conception that things are, by and large, ok, and that there are things that could be better. That's the way your *choice of phrase* comes off.

    and on the policy making issue, yes, it certainly is the case, but i can see why you, an admin, might easily think otherwise.

    *Grin* Nice shot. I was consulted on many - not all, but many - issues before I became an admin. So are numerous other non-admins.

    On the other hand - yes, it would be much more to my taste if major policy shifts were discussed publically before hand. Absolutely. And it is to a certain extent my responsibility that they aren't. But the bottom line on that is: it's Rusty's site, and while i'll tell him when I think something's a bad idea, i'm not going to hit him over the head with a 2x4 to make him do things the way I would in his shoes. I'm just not going to do that, and i'll freely admit that that places my perceived responsibility to his freedom over whatever responsibility i have to the K5 userbase.

    [ Parent ]

    where's the consistency? (none / 0) (#344)
    by rmg on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:38:04 PM EST

    on one hand, rusty seems to want very tight control over the operation of the site. on the other hand, he does not seem to want to take much action as far as cleaning up and streamlining the operation of the site. so he wants to hold on to the site, but he wants to ignore the site...

    i think what i'd like to see is more power delegated to the userbase, in particular, more mechanisms for self regulation (because we all know we can't expect any administrative regulation, unless someone photoshops a picture of rusty's grandmother or something).

    of course, i should probably stop. if you guys listened to me, i'd be out of a job.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    What I think, for what it's worth. (none / 2) (#347)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:43:07 PM EST

    Rusty both wants the site to meet his idealized vision of an online community, doesn't want the responsibility of all of the work to make it happen, and is reluctant to delegate or to trust others to do it right.

    I can't blame him; in my CMF role i've hardly given him a reason to. (I've done much better in my admin role, but that's not particularly surprising).

    [ Parent ]

    why not just come clean about the cmf? (2.25 / 4) (#349)
    by rmg on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:53:32 PM EST

    it's not going anywhere. no one, i think, really cares. just say the project is abandoned and explain. there will be nothing left to say about it.

    i can see where rusty's coming from, but unfortunately, people seem to feel somehow invested in the site. it seems like ungrateful bickering and whining, but the users have made the site what it is, even if amongst the users rusty has done the most by far. people have tried to address these things for such a long time and there has been very little indication that rusty even sees the validity of their concerns. often enough he denies it. he plays off criticism with arguments like "you couldn't do any better" or "what have you tried?" hence frustration, which fuels trolls, which becomes mock anger, which filters back into the userbase as real anger.

    he's got to get more people involved. that's just all there is to it. and he needs to do something. something to fix the problems and show he still cares about the site. if he doesn't, no one else can and no one else will.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    Yeah. (none / 0) (#355)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:23:39 PM EST

    it's not going anywhere. no one, i think, really cares. just say the project is abandoned and explain. there will be nothing left to say about it.

    I have faith that someday Rusty will commit to it enough to make it happen. I may or may not be involved at that time; i'd like to be, but not enough to force the issue.

    but the users have made the site

    Nor have I ever said anything different. It's a group enterprise. Almost everything worthwhile is.

    if he doesn't, no one else can and no one else will.

    Well, duh. :)

    [ Parent ]

    How the hell (none / 1) (#210)
    by GenerationY on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 07:18:02 AM EST

    do you volunteer to be an admin? I was told on the IRC channel it wasn't open to application.

    [ Parent ]
    It isn't. (none / 1) (#297)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:27:37 PM EST

    I was volunteered by Rusty. So was CT. How do you put yourself in a place where Rusty will volunteer you? I haven't the first clue.

    [ Parent ]
    Fair enough (none / 1) (#307)
    by GenerationY on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 05:06:56 PM EST

    It was more an "out of interest" question rather than anything else. I wasn't angling for the job anyway. I think I'm a world away from what would be required (read that as you will, but no offense is meant incidentally).

    Thanks for the info anyhow.

    [ Parent ]

    Offense (none / 0) (#342)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:15:09 PM EST

    read that as you will, but no offense is meant incidentally

    None taken. :) I have absolutely no idea what is meant; why would i be offended by that?

    So ... what did you mean? :)

    [ Parent ]

    just leave (2.86 / 38) (#162)
    by lurker4hire on Sun Apr 25, 2004 at 10:42:00 PM EST

    It's simple... just stop posting, delete the bookmark, don't follow any links going there, etc... and please, please, please, don't announce your departure with a long winded explanation about why you are leaving.

    Listen, I've lurked on many message boards, and I've read many rants against the admining of just about all of them. Users standing up (metaphorically speaking of course), announcing that things are shitty and they are leaving after this post etc etc... most don't. Those that are really sick and tired of whatever bullshit happens to be happening just leave.

    Here's an example, when k5 had the financial crisis 2 years ago, I bought a six month membership. When the CMF was announced I was quite happy and was interested in seeing how it would play out. When my membership was about to expire I emailed rusty about the status of the CMF, he said things were complicated by his wifes grad school schedule or something like that. I resubscribed for another 6 months. When things still hadn't happened at 1 year. I just didn't renew. No biggie, I'm waiting for the CMF to happen... no hysterics, no long rants, no god damn dramatics. Simple.

    Please, if you are really sick of k5, just leave. If, and I hope this is the real issue, you really like k5 and can't stand to see what it's become, the best thing you can do is post quality comments and stories. If, and I hope this isn't the issue, you simply like to cause trouble or have something personal against rusty, please just grow up and leave, there is more to life than internet pseudo-intellectual wankery.

    Yeah (2.09 / 11) (#167)
    by Dr Phil on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 12:06:40 AM EST

    Because anything you have to fight for isn't worth doing, right?

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    fight (3.00 / 5) (#207)
    by lurker4hire on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 07:03:02 AM EST

    fighting for = posting quality comments and stories

    fighting against = whining, bitching, trolling, and wanking

    [ Parent ]

    How does posting a quality story (1.75 / 4) (#234)
    by Dr Phil on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:32:01 AM EST

    Make Rusty do his job? This story isn't about the quality of K5, it's about the inaction of its administrator.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    it doesn't (2.85 / 7) (#244)
    by lurker4hire on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:12:48 AM EST

    What will making 'rusty do his job' accomplish?

    He's not going to make this a better site overnight, he's not going to single handedly increase the signal-noise ratio, he's certainly not going to pander to every user with a chip on their shoulder.

    Just to be clear, I agree with many of the grievances expressed in this story and in the comments, I just think you people are being counter productive. If the goal is to make k5 an interesting place to post and read stories, then there is very little beyond quality posts and stories that you can do.

    There is a power imbalance inherent in k5 (and just about every message board known to internet-kind), the admin(s) hold executive override power. Deal with it, it's the nature of the beast. All 'collaborative internet enabled communications mediums', aka message boards, are like this (except for maybe unmoderated usenet, and we all know how high the s/n ratio is there). What people seem to be complaining about is that rusty hasn't perfected the model yet, what a freaking suprise.

    Yes rusty's made mistakes, everybody makes mistakes. Yes he should be careful about promising things he cannot deliver. Yes he should have run his sponsorship idea by, at the very least, a dozen or so of his closest k5 friends before thinking of implementing something so drastic. Yes he should, at the very least, give some sort of status update on the CMF. All these complaints are valid, but you know what, bitching, whining, moaning and trolling accomplish nothing. In fact, bitching etc have negative effect, most people when faced with this type of behaviour turn on their 'ignore message' mental filter.

    Again, if you care to make k5 an interesting place, post quality... otherwise, just take off already.

    [ Parent ]

    Again, that's all fine (2.25 / 8) (#246)
    by Dr Phil on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:19:19 AM EST

    But it's not the issue raised. Personally I don't even think a lack of interesting content is a problem here at K5. Regardless of your position on that, there are administrative issues that must be addressed. Obviously the most important one is the disabling of new user signups, currently we're stuck in limbo and Rusty's done nothing but keep his mouth shut about it. Interesting content doesn't fix that, and it doesn't fix any of the other issues raised in the story. Maybe you think the issue of interesting content is the "most important" problem of K5 right now. I don't agree with you, but even if I did there's no reason to dismiss the complaints in this story because of that. A lot of people care about the stuff mentioned here, as evidenced by the way this story his FP so easily. Simply because you think there's a greater problem is no reason at all to give Rusty some sort of free ticket regarding his responsibilities.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    fair enough (none / 2) (#254)
    by lurker4hire on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:36:31 AM EST

    I'm not suggesting that lack of interesting content is the most important issue for k5 right now, just that it's the only one you and I, as users, can address. We can't do the admining ourselves due to the power imbalance inherent in the medium, all we can do is contribute content.

    If you want the power structure to change, then you will have to wait until rusty decides to change it. Alternatively you can leave and find some site with a power structure you prefer.

    As far as the disabled new accounts are concerned, it's only been a month. Call me at six then I'll be concerned.


    [ Parent ]

    Regarding posting interesting stories (2.91 / 12) (#249)
    by Tex Bigballs on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:24:53 AM EST

    With the new users being shut off, writing a great article doesn't really help the site all that much.

    Perfect case in point this article which got a good amount of coverage on slashdot, a few gaming sites, and I think made it pretty high on blogdex for awhile.

    So could any of those people log in to K5 to comment on that story? Nope, not unless they already had K5 accounts! So tell me what's the point?

    Even though rusty did promise monthly site updates, the CMF, etc, maybe people could make a case that stuff isn't absolutely vital to the site. Even searching

    But cutting off new users, and just leaving it cut off is absolute madness. I know rusty wants to be like metafilter, but this site is not metafilter. And if new users are cut off long enough, the site will indeed die. How long that will take is up for debate, but there's absolutely no question that it will eventually happen.

    [ Parent ]

    Rusty's job (2.66 / 6) (#258)
    by bugmaster on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 12:49:27 PM EST

    Eh ? I don't care about the S/N ratio. All I want Rusty to do at this point is,
    1. Post a breakdown of where the donation/subscription money is going, and
    2. Fix the comment search
    Is that so difficult ? Yes, perhaps it can't be done "overnight", but Rusty has been sitting on it for like a year now. Just how much time does it take ?
    >|<*:=
    [ Parent ]
    Misconceptions. (2.83 / 6) (#296)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:26:13 PM EST

    Yes he should be careful about promising things he cannot deliver

    He can deliver them. He isn't willing to for one reason or another.

    Yes he should have run his sponsorship idea by, at the very least, a dozen or so of his closest k5 friends before thinking of implementing something so drastic.

    He did. He ran it by a number of us in irc. I failed him as a friend by not caring enough, on the day when he told me, to tell him i didn't like the idea and why. I hate it when I do that. :)

    [ Parent ]

    Instead of focusing on what Rusty can do (none / 1) (#294)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:23:29 PM EST

    Focus on what *you* can do. What would kuro5hin be if you did what you could to make it a better site? What would it be if you wrote an awe-inspiring article about a subject you loved?

    [ Parent ]
    I think this is the right idea (none / 1) (#306)
    by razumiking on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:57:30 PM EST

    But if people feel like their article is going to be snowed under with crapflooding and people flaming them for trying, it's hard to make a compelling argument of this.

    The bottom line is that the flaming and crapflooding must be dealt with before people are going to be willing to generate the content this site needs. There needs to be an honest, good faith effort from the admins before people will be ready to work for this site. People don't see that effort right now.

    [ Parent ]

    I have *never* had that happen. (none / 1) (#308)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 05:09:09 PM EST

    Some of my articles attract trolls. Some of them attract crapflooding. I've never had an article overwhelmed by either.

    Besides which ... why does the *comments* to the article matter to whether the article itself is worth writing? :)

    [ Parent ]

    It's like anything else. (none / 3) (#309)
    by razumiking on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 05:16:29 PM EST

    If you get a negative reaction from doing something, you're not going to want to do it anymore. Comments are the reactions one gets when one writes a story.

    I suppose you're right. "Snowed under" probably overstates it. If you look at people who write a lot of articles, like localroger, Silent Chris, and kpaul, they are targetted by trolls. Maybe what I should say is that the atmosphere generated by crapflooding contributes to the general malaise the site is experiencing.

    You're an admin, right? Could you tell me what is the rationale for letting guys like Hide the Hamster, suicidal ideation, drduck, and other lower profile abuse cases hang around for such a long time untouched?

    [ Parent ]

    awe-inspiring articles (none / 3) (#315)
    by ucblockhead on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 06:37:12 PM EST

    If I had an awe-inspiring article, how would it benefit me to post it here?
    -----------------------
    This is k5. We're all tools - duxup
    [ Parent ]
    why submit here? (none / 2) (#323)
    by clover_kicker on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 08:12:12 PM EST

    Sometimes it's nice to have a high visibility place to post articles that you don't want associated with your real identity.
    --
    I am the very model of a K5 personality.
    I intersperse obscenity with tedious banality.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, but... (none / 2) (#357)
    by ucblockhead on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:53:22 PM EST

    There are thousands of sites that you can do that on. Why this, and not the other ones?
    -----------------------
    This is k5. We're all tools - duxup
    [ Parent ]
    high profile (none / 0) (#384)
    by clover_kicker on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 09:24:32 AM EST

    My article was moderately famous for a couple of days. It was linked from a couple of dozen other web pages.

    An buddy forwarded me a link to a funny article, not knowing I was really the author.
    --
    I am the very model of a K5 personality.
    I intersperse obscenity with tedious banality.

    [ Parent ]

    Aha! (none / 3) (#345)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:40:13 PM EST

    A good question, at last. :) Thank you for posing it.

    What do you get out of reading here? What do you get out of commenting here? Would you get more of whatever that is if there were more high quality stories?

    If not, then fine: you may not get anything (unless you're posting them just for the sheer joy of writing something up and sharing it, which I do sometimes, or you have some sort of didactic or sales purpose).

    But if so ... here's the deal. If everybody who can write great stories does so, then everyone benefits. If one person who can write great stories does so, then everyone benefits - but that person bears the cost.

    I know you can write great stories. I know that at one time you wanted there to be great stories on this site. What is it about the cost that makes the benefits not worth it?

    [ Parent ]

    You see... (3.00 / 7) (#356)
    by ucblockhead on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:52:00 PM EST

    It's been my observation that lately people who write good articles are more likely to get crapped on then praised.

    I've been hearing the "just write better articles!" argument here for over two years now, and yet kuro5hin does not seem to be improving. The thing is, when good articles get written, as often as not the response is a bunch of crapflooders posting inane crap. I don't know about others, but that's not the response I want. I'd personally rather post it somewhere lower traffic where most of the responses are responses I find interesting.

    If one group of people are trying to increase the signal, and another group of people are trying to increase the noise, then, well, the second group is gonna win if for no other reason then that noise is a hell of a lot easier to create. That's the trouble with this place. Because it tolerates noise, the signal is hard to find.

    Screw that. This isn't the only site on the internet. There comes a time when it is easier to cut your losses and bail on the site that's not working.

    Telling people that they should just post better articles is the same as telling them that the problems are really there fault. That it is our fault that things go wrong. It is the users site and therefore any failings are the failings of the users.

    The trouble with that attitude is that the users have far less invested in the site than those who run it. If it sucks, I can decide to fix it, or I can just bail, and find a site that doesn't suck. Guess which is both easier and more satisfying for me, the user?

    So yeah, if Rusty wants to say, well, it's the user's site, and that they should fix it themselves, then, well, I think the load stats over the last year tell pretty clearly how successful that attitude is.
    -----------------------
    This is k5. We're all tools - duxup
    [ Parent ]

    where all the blame lies (3.00 / 5) (#366)
    by aphrael on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 12:30:10 AM EST

    It's been my observation that lately people who write good articles are more likely to get crapped on then praised.

    That hasn't been my experience. I have an article coming tomorrow morning. I think it's good. We'll see. :)

    That's the trouble with this place. Because it tolerates noise, the signal is hard to find.

    That's a fair assessment; there are some techniques that work better than others, but the best-case scenario is that it requires massive effort to find signal in the noise. But I think that will turn out to be the case anywhere online that's large enough to contain signal or which doesn't provide a large police force.

    I'm a traffic cop, not a policeman, if you get the analogy. Nobody here has any desire to be a full-time policeman.

    Telling people that they should just post better articles is the same as telling them that the problems are really there fault.

    Well yes. Aren't the problems here - with the exception of the fact that new users aren't being allowed - entirely the fault of the users as an aggregate or some users as individuals?

    I see Rusty's situation as this: he created a site that was fun for him and a bunch of people he knew. It grew because lots of people came here and loved it, and a chain reaction occured. Then at some point many people who loved it enough to want it to work but not enough to help make it work started bitching at Rusty to fix everything that they didn't like, and as a result his passion went out the window.

    I *think* Rusty should have surrendered day-to-day operative control to someone who had that passion shortly after that happened. But he didn't, and so here we are:

    • The trolls love it here and will stay as long as there are biters. Nothing Rusty can do to make them leave will succeed; in the end, they'll find a way back if they're devoted to it. His attempts to make them cease and desist all seem to be making it worse, not better.
    • The amount of signal is decreasing. Not the ratio, the amount. The less signal there is, the harder it is to pull the signal out, the less reason there is for people looking for signal to stay.

    If both of those statements are true, how do we stop the spiral? The only way I can see is for those of us who do care to generate signal. We had a self-reinforcing positive loop once. We can have it again if people are willing to put effort into it.

    You clearly care on some level: you're discussing it with me. :)

    [ Parent ]

    Banning new accounts will kill K5 (3.00 / 10) (#381)
    by smg on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 08:01:15 AM EST

    A major source of article submissions used to be from "nullos" - people who got an account just to contribute an article. Granted, a majority of these articles weren't all that great, but many were of requisite quality and they at the least were a breath of fresh air. Given the recent drop-off in submissions, I think the overall contribution from this group may have been underestimated.

    Secondly, a large part (if not all) of the incentive to write an article for a website is the feedback that you get from readers. In particular, it's great to hear from people with educated opinions or even experts on the subject matter. K5 used to be great because anyone, including passing experts, could get an account and comment. Closed communities are only appealing if their readerships are particularly elite or educated. Unfortunately, K5's current demographic is neither. I mean, why submit an article to a site where only a restricted group of people, many of whom solely post inane comments, may actually comment, when you can put it on almost any other blog so that anyone who reads it can give feedback?

    Finally, it's important that a site have at least some appearance of stability. K5 may be able to run itself, but when the admin takes drastic action to change the very nature of the site, then goes in communicado without implementing the further changes he convinced everyone (except the cynics/realists) that he would soon do, it really doesn't encourage people. And it seems that you editors don't know any more than we do. Will sponsorship happen? Who knows? Who cares anymore?

    Now, I'm not complaining about this state of affairs. I voted this article down: rusty built this site and it's his unquestionable right to do whatever he wants with it, even destroy it. It's absurd for people to complain about how rusty does a job that he isn't getting paid for. Furthermore, rusty seems sensitive to criticism, so more criticism will certainly not help things. I just think it's sad that a guy who has put so much work into what was once a great website now wants to let it die because a few outspoken, malicious idiots managed to get under his skin. It's a cliche, but it seems that by forcing rusty to leave the site in this state, the trolls have already won. It's also sad that rusty obviously doesn't trust anyone else enough to delegate to.

    The trolls love it here and will stay as long as there are biters. Nothing Rusty can do to make them leave will succeed; in the end, they'll find a way back if they're devoted to it. His attempts to make them cease and desist all seem to be making it worse, not better.
    Trolls are in every corner of the Internet. Different sites have developed different strategies to deal with them; some sites have dedicated hands-on admins, others, notably Slashdot, have hands-off limited moderation systems (combined with threshold viewing). Do these systems work better than K5's system? Well, I'll put it this way: K5 is the only major forum I know where trolling is a major, perennial topic of conversation and source of camplaint. Maybe rusty should have given a thought to using Slashdot's proven system to deal with the trolls?

    If both of those statements are true, how do we stop the spiral? The only way I can see is for those of us who do care to generate signal. We had a self-reinforcing positive loop once. We can have it again if people are willing to put effort into it.
    That's an admirable sentiment, yet it doesn't answer the question: why should potential writers choose K5 other than out of a sense of loyalty? I think the reasons are becoming fewer and fewer in a self-reinforcing negative loop.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes. (none / 1) (#396)
    by aphrael on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 01:39:47 PM EST

    A permanent ban on new accounts will kill K5, slowly; a death of strangulation. I don't want to see that happen.

    why should potential writers choose K5 other than out of a sense of loyalty? I think the reasons are becoming fewer and fewer in a self-reinforcing negative loop.

    Ah, the voice of despair. :)

    [ Parent ]

    Hmm (none / 1) (#404)
    by melia on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 04:02:08 PM EST

    It's absurd for people to complain about how rusty does a job that he isn't getting paid for.

    I think the point of the article is that some people feel they have paid Rusty.

    I don't agree with them, (just using the furore for my own wicked ends) but I think that's the point of the article.
    Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
    [ Parent ]

    kuro5hin has always been a combination (none / 3) (#241)
    by RandomLiegh on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:45:02 AM EST

    of trolling and wanking. Always. If you don't accept that, then I'd respectfully suggest to you that you're deluding yourself.

    ---
    Thought of the week: There is no thought this week.
    ---
    [ Parent ]
    Emotional attatchment (2.81 / 11) (#173)
    by kraant on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:11:03 AM EST

    The thing about k5 is that it seems to generate an titanic amount of user attatchment.

    No I don't know why, hell I'm starting to wonder why I keep coming back given how things are going, but I still do.

    So all these people with a huge emotional stake in a website are wondering... What next? What's going to happen?

    And yeah we've been seeing k5 is dying, news at 11 articles for years and years. And I'm sure as long as the site doesn't close down and some way of getting new users in is implemented one day it'll still be here for years to come.

    But in the meantime you're going to get the peanut gallery, well, throwing peanuts at rusty until they do know what's going on.

    And yeah, sick as it is I miss the trolls. They're the ones who started most of the k5 specific memes. :P
    --
    "kraant, open source guru" -- tumeric
    Never In Our Names...
    [ Parent ]

    The trolls were great. (none / 2) (#293)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:22:34 PM EST

    And some of them are still around. I think i'm in love with ninja rmg sometimes.

    [ Parent ]
    seems like a bad precedent (2.44 / 9) (#230)
    by mikpos on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:15:44 AM EST

    Rusty: "if you give me money, I will make K5 awesome!"
    Good person: "here is a lot of money"
    ... time passes ...
    Good person: "why is K5 no better than it was before? I want my money back!"
    lurker4hire: "please leave"

    Seriously, you're completely brushing off the whole money aspect of this. If Rusty made a promise to do something with all the money people gave him, then should either do some work or give the money back.

    [ Parent ]

    money is a non-issue (3.00 / 6) (#245)
    by lurker4hire on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:18:32 AM EST

    I, like many people I'm guessing, paid money not for future value, but for past value. I gave money to k5 because I had enjoyed it in the past and hoped it would continue into the future. It's like paying for shareware, you don't have to do it, but if you like it, and are able, you pay. Sure I hope my donation will enable future versions to be written, but I don't threaten to sue if it doesn't happen.

    Oh, and it wasn't a single good person giving lots of money, but thousands of good people giving relatively small amounts of money. Also, some people were getting something in return beyond membership for their money (ad-impressions).

    [ Parent ]

    What specific promises were made? (none / 2) (#292)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:21:59 PM EST

    I understood it as a "i need money to keep this site going". I never took anything he said he was going to do as a promise. Did you?

    Did he ever say "I promise you this?" :)

    [ Parent ]

    Erm... (none / 2) (#473)
    by RobotSlave on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 06:19:26 AM EST

    Go back and have a look at the pertinant articles, aphrael. No, rusty didn't make any promises prior to asking for donations. But he did, quite clearly, promise during and after the "fund drive" that the money would be used to set up a non-profit K5-controlling entity (which was later amended to be a more-than-just-K5-controlling entity).

    Some pertinant quotes from rusty:

    1. "I think the clearest way I can put it is: you just purchased Kuro5hin.org. I wish I had put it this way to begin with, but even I was a little (probably more than a little) muddled about what the exact transaction here was. Simply put, it was this: If you collectively contribute enough money for me to live on for the next few months, I will contribute my equity in and ownership of Kuro5hin.org, do a lot of legal work, and what we'll end up with is a nonprofit organization that will own and operate the site in perpetuity, and hopefully become a strong base of support for collaborative media in general. You came through on your end, so now it's my turn."

    Well, OK, that's only one quote, but maybe I don't have to dredge up any other quotes. I mean, I could, sure, but that one alone looks pretty fucking damning, wouldn't you say?

    You know, aphrael, I won't hold it against you for a moment if you decide to back off a wee bit from your "I never saw rusty promise you nuthin' " stance. I will, however, think quite a bit less of you if you try to dismiss that quote up there with a weaselly bit of semantic bullshit along the lines of "he didn't actually literally say 'I Promise You This."

    [ Parent ]

    Bravo as usual Robotslave (none / 0) (#479)
    by Tex Bigballs on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 09:12:26 AM EST

    aphrael is a good guy, but I realize he's in a difficult spot.

    It's ashame that rusty is too cowardly/ashamed to answer any of this stuff himself, and has to dispatch his tap-dancing flunky to go out and try to smooth things over on his behalf.

    [ Parent ]

    Dispatch? (none / 0) (#498)
    by aphrael on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 03:38:21 PM EST

    Aside from an interchange in comments, I haven't spoken to Rusty in over a week. I was incommunicado from weds-mon, and started answering this thread as soon as I saw it. :)

    [ Parent ]
    yeah yeah whatever (none / 0) (#499)
    by Tex Bigballs on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 04:02:25 PM EST

    the thing I want to know is how come you always are the one to answer for rusty's ineptitude. Why doesn't pwhysall or captain tenille ever come out here and take a few for the team?

    In any event, I am a bit more heartened by your attitude of late. Even though you're still obediently towing the CMF line, at least you're starting to finally admit (in a roundabout way, but admitting nonetheless) that rusty has turned his back on the site.

    [ Parent ]

    Because (none / 0) (#507)
    by aphrael on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 08:55:03 PM EST

    I have an enormous desire for everyone to like each other. It pains me when they don't, so I'll step up and throw out my $.15 to make it happen.

    [ Parent ]
    fair enough. (none / 0) (#497)
    by aphrael on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 03:37:34 PM EST

    It's a posthoc promise, but you're right that it's a promise. I hereby back off a bit. :)

    I would maintain, though, that that promise, being posthoc, did not influence people's decision to give. :)

    [ Parent ]

    And let you be the last to say (2.25 / 4) (#248)
    by sllort on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:24:20 AM EST

    "LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!!!!"
    --
    Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
    [ Parent ]
    I'm surprised that this got voted up (2.05 / 18) (#169)
    by big fat idiot on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 12:23:36 AM EST

    Isn't it obvious that this story came about by means of a plot hatched by Stick and rusty in order to increase page views? Expect more similarly controversial stories equally designed to cash in on the desire of kur5hins to bitch, whine and moan. Each of these sessions, while therapeutic, drive up the number of pages served and make it appear as if k5 was not dying.

    OMG (2.13 / 15) (#177)
    by pb on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 02:24:41 AM EST

    Thank you Stick, this may be the best birthday present I've ever had.
    ---
    "See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
    -- pwhysall
    Whoa (none / 0) (#471)
    by RobotSlave on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 05:27:31 AM EST

    You share a birthday with the hottest woman I've ever met. And I mean, damn, fellas, OK? Yeah, she's in college, majoring in dance, right? And she's stacked. And tight. Cripes! And no— no pictures for you, Mr. Internet Horn-Dog.

     

     

    What, you were expecting some of the old rusty-bashing vitriol from me? Come on, dudes. I moved out of that scene so long ago, OK? You need to be as done with him as he is with you, dig?

    [ Parent ]

    A few honest suggestions (2.90 / 32) (#180)
    by RadiantMatrix on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 02:45:00 AM EST

    First, I don't know that all of the problems listed in the story are real problems.  Just by way of establishing potential bias, here are my standings on each item above:
    1. Collaborative Media Foundation: It's unfortunate that the CMF appears to be spinning its wheels.  However, that's a fairly common problem for non-profit orgs in the creation stages.  I agree that it would be nice if anyone from the CMF (including, but not limited to Rusty) would keep us informed about the CMF's status.
    2. Dealing with the trolls: That's pretty much the domain of the users -- and it's why we have a voting system.  If everyone voted on every comment (I sure don't), the trolls would likely go away after enough '0' ratings.  Don't blame Rusty, blame us.
    3. Fixed comment search: This is a more difficult problem than it appears. The trick is to get a working search that doesn't cripple the servers.  I'd like to see this delegated, because I doubt Rusty really has the time right now.
    4. Sponsorship system: Rusty claimed the code is complete, and I believe it is.  He also made it clear that he was unsure if it should be implemented or not.  The issue here is that new membership remains closed; that is a problem.
    5. Monthly updates: All I can say is that Rusty asked us to call him on the carpet if he missed his updates.  He has.  We have.
    6. New features: There have been only a few new features; but, Rusty never said it would be a glut, just that there would be new features.  So, he's lived up to his promise

    Real Issues

    The only real issues I see in all of this are lack of communication, the unfortunate new membership issue, and the comment search.

    I suggest that those with "mad Perl skills" get together and implement a good Scoop patch for comment searching.  Getting the work done and submitted is the best way to make sure K5 gets the benefit.  If, upon receiving a good patch, search remains broken for some time, we might have a new issue.

    Regarding new membership, I oppose the Sponsorship system.  I also see that unlimited open membership isn't viable right now, either.  The ultimate problem needs to be carefully addressed, but we need an interim policy.  I suggest limiting the number of new memberships each [period] until a better solution can be devised.  For [period], I'd use "hour", since that will reduce the ability of abusers to mass-register accounts.

    The lack of communication issue has two resolutions.  The obvious one is for Rusty to write a Site News article explaining current status, and establishing a policy of regular updates.  Maybe monthly is too much, but quarterly would suffice.  The second resolution is to delegate much of the site control to another person or group who has more time to spend on the site.

    Delegation seems like the best of worlds: Rusty gets to keep his veto power, but others who have less on their plates can deal with the day-to-day operation of the site.

    Rusty, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

    ----------
    I don't like spam -

    Yes, and. :) (2.50 / 4) (#291)
    by aphrael on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:20:50 PM EST

    I agree that it would be nice if anyone from the CMF (including, but not limited to Rusty) would keep us informed about the CMF's status.

    We're spinning our wheels. We're all responsible for it, so i'm not going to cast blame on any one particular person. I haven't been posting updates, and I presume that nobody else has been, because "we're spinning our wheels; no new news" isn't particularly informative and because every time i post it feel embarassed to do so. :)

    Nothing new to see here. Move along. :) That's the message for today.

    [ Parent ]

    Need help? (none / 0) (#529)
    by RadiantMatrix on Mon May 10, 2004 at 02:32:18 AM EST


    We're spinning our wheels.

    What can I do to help?

    ----------
    I don't like spam - Parent ]

    Obviously... (none / 1) (#519)
    by Filip on Fri Apr 30, 2004 at 06:22:19 AM EST

    ...a comment search will cripple the servers. A feature like that for a DB the size of K5 will require more hardware. Hardware costs $$.

    That said, I've been a nice community member and have paid membership dues for a long while (since the money drive, with a short hiatus).

    What bothers me is that those like me, who read a lot and post very little, don't get benefits for paying up (what does spell checking posts mean to me most of the time)?

    If comment search means buying hardware, as well as writing software, and that is the reason it is not implemented - then it should probably be implemented as a subscriber-only feature. (A smaller group will stress the servers less, and if more people subscribe in order to use comment search - that will pay for more hardware).

    /Filip
    -- I'm just a figment of your imagination.
    [ Parent ]

    community sustainability (2.70 / 10) (#181)
    by l3nz on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 02:48:40 AM EST

    I find it sad that you run a community site with over 100,000 pageviews per day and you can't make a living out of it. Maybe the model is fundamentally flawed. I mean, there are tens of thousands of people regularly visiting k5 and Rusty cannot even sell us a cup of coffee per year. Too bad. It's true trolling has been way out of control (it probably always was since I started to read k5); I suspect the only serious way to handle this and the money problem is to ask people to shell out a couple of bucks to get write permisions on this. Of course, if Rusty is not too bored with this whole game at the present point.

    About comment indexing, why not do it in the PerlMonks way? create a static copy of the site and let Google suck that? it would be a quick fix, at least temporarily.

    Popk ToDo lists - yet another web-based ToDo list manager. 100% AJAX free :-)

    Freakin' awesome article (2.42 / 14) (#182)
    by UncannyVortex on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 03:34:36 AM EST

    What fun!  I come back after a several-day absence and find that a coup has taken place.  The inmates are most definitely running the asylum at this point.

    How in the shit did this make it to the FP?  High fives to Stick and everyone who voted this up.

    Oh, the content of the article?  I don't agree, or I do.  Whatever.

    Quit your fucking squealing. (1.86 / 38) (#183)
    by Empedocles on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:09:22 AM EST

    Christ, you whiners make me sick. I don't know Rusty - I have never met him in person, hell, I've never even engaged in any sort of dialog with him through an electronic medium. Quite frankly, I have no reason to defend him. I even get a chuckle out of the "OMG rusty stole $70k" comments. Even so, the squealing sounds emitted from a certain vocal portion of the userbase here reminds me of an overweight piglet deprived of his mother's teat.

    Rusty's position here puts him in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. Any move he makes in respect to kuro5hin is going to make one portion of the userbase or another start squealing. And this time, enough of you porkers are pissed off that Rusty is ignoring you, or doing something that you don't like (after all, you can do it better, can't you?) that this steaming piece of cow offal got voted to FP. Now, all I see are a bunch of little piggies holding a circle-jerk over a steaming pile of cow shit.

    Rusty hasn't posted a monthly update lately? Squeal, squeal, squeal, "Rusty is ignoring us!"

    Squeal, squeal, squeal, "We gave Rusty money!" So what? I have no doubt that Rusty put thousands of hours into the realization of Scoop. Rusty thought that something should be done a different way. He thought he could do it better. He put his money where he mouth was, so to speak, and had the drive to push it forward so that it was actually completed. More than I can say for the lot of you little slabs of bacon.

    Now, I'm sure many of you little piggies have said to yourself, "I COULD DO THIS SO MUCH BETTER THAN THAT RUSTARD GUY!" Of all the people who thought that, how many have actually done it? Of all the bitching I've seen about the search engine being broken, there has not been one thing done about it. I'm referring not to Rusty doing something about it, but to one of you squealing little piggies fixing the problem.

    What? You don't know BASIC, much less Perl? You think SQL is pronounced by saying the letters individually? Don't know your head from your ass, anyway, and besides, you can't be troubled to actually do something? And besides, Rusty is filthy-fucking rich from kuro5hin, right?

    Fuck you. I'd wager that if you added up all the time Rusty spent writing Scoop, fixing bugs, helping whining fucking morons, and in short making it so that you little shitheads can bitch about him right now, and divided it by the amount of money made from this website (donations, ad fees, membership, everything else), it would come out to less than minimum wage.

    A hard concept to grasp, I know. That Rusty would start kuro5hin and keep it going, not for money, but for the love of it? From what I can see, I'd say that there is no amount of money large enough for him to put up with the abuse he receives from this website.

    Wipe that smile off your face, asshole. When I say abuse, I not only referring to the run-of-the-mill "Rusty stole our money and never fixed anything or started the CMF and now spends his days polishing the monocle on his yacht," but to damn near everyone in this article whining about "Rusty this..." or "Rusty that..."

    When Tex Bigballs (one of the better known "troll" personas) assaults Rusty, I'm quite sure that both Tex and Rusty are laughing. I know I sure as hell am - for a variety of subtle reasons that seem to be lost on many of you. When someone starts whining about how much Rusty sucks because blah blah (like this article and the assorted wanking attached to it) and actually believe the drivel they produce, I can only conclude that they have no insight whatsoever into Rusty's position.

    Even then I am referring only his position as kuro5hin head honcho, not to his position as a well-known Internet persona, his position in the political scene, his personal life (GASP! He does things outside of the Intarweb?), his work life, or any one of a hundered other factors that I seriously doubt any of you little fuckheads (or I) know about.

    This rant is getting a little too long, so let me just say: Shut the fuck up. You do not have to like Rusty's decisions. You do not have to like anything he does, for that matter. But I'm pretty damn sure that the fact that you squealing little piggies are holding a circle-jerk here right now is far more a testament to Rusty's character than to yours.

    ---
    And I think it's gonna be a long long time
    'Till touch down brings me 'round again to find
    I'm not the man they think I am at home

    +1 FP: rework and submit to queue /nt (none / 2) (#184)
    by skyknight on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 05:09:10 AM EST



    It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
    [ Parent ]
    HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH! (2.60 / 10) (#189)
    by James A C Joyce on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 05:44:43 AM EST

    <i>"You think SQL is pronounced by saying the letters individually?"</i>

    HAHAHAHAHAHA! IT IS, FOOL!

    I bought this account on eBay
    [ Parent ]

    If we want to be really elitist... (none / 1) (#198)
    by skyknight on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 06:22:00 AM EST

    we could drop comments about how the "My" in "MySQL" is pronounced as "mee", too. Better still, we could go on about the origins of the name.

    It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
    [ Parent ]
    Dear Sir (none / 2) (#269)
    by killmepleez on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:51:56 PM EST

    As a certified IT Professional [I have completed my MOUS and am working towards my MCSE], I can tell you with definitive authority that MySQL is pronounced "Meeskwill"

    __
    "I instantly realized that everything in my life that I thought was unfixable was totally fixable - except for having just jumped."
    --from "J
    [ Parent ]
    If we want to be really, really elitist.... (3.00 / 5) (#317)
    by Melba Toast on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 06:49:10 PM EST

    ....we'll admit that we have no offline friends or associates so have never had the opportunity of actually hearing or pronouncing SQL or MySQL, and that further, we don't care, because it's unimportant.


    [ Parent ]
    And you accuse *us* of squealing like pigs? (1.55 / 9) (#192)
    by Dr Phil on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 05:52:39 AM EST

    Haha. If you can't handle complaining, maybe you should shut the fuck up and stop complaining about it?

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    -1, Dr Phil n/t (none / 3) (#303)
    by Fon2d2 on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:43:41 PM EST



    [ Parent ]
    It is you who is annoying. (1.28 / 7) (#257)
    by drwav on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:43:29 AM EST

    Fucking meta-whiners are WAY more annoying than whiners...

    So please, YOU shut the fuck up.

    [ Parent ]

    +1 FP (none / 1) (#304)
    by Fon2d2 on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:48:19 PM EST

    Thank you. I especially like the part about both Rusty and Tex Bigballs laughing over the kinds of comments that Tex makes. To me, a lot of the trolls add flavor. I think what a lot of the userbase thinks of as trolls are really just people with a sense of humor.

    [ Parent ]
    to me (1.82 / 28) (#186)
    by circletimessquare on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 05:29:29 AM EST

    to me, there have always been 2 kinds of people in life:
    1. those who bitch and moan
    2. those who shut up and do something
    it's all about mental energy and where you channel it: positively and negatively

    i don't see much positive in this story, just a lot of "waaah! where's my new toy!"

    don't like the fucking site? fine, not a problem

    leave the fucking site, go start your damn site, but please, for the sake of god, shut the fuck up: you provide no solutions, you just underline problems

    and they call me a troll


    The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

    I think there is a third category... (2.80 / 5) (#188)
    by skyknight on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 05:35:06 AM EST

    namely those who criticize constructively and analytically, and roll their sleeves up to do some work. As you may have noticed, though, there aren't enough such people in the world to solve any real matters of import. What makes you think that K5 could be fixed?

    It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
    [ Parent ]
    The solution is simple: (1.80 / 5) (#191)
    by Dr Phil on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 05:50:12 AM EST

    Rusty can do what he promised countless times to do. If I could act in Rusty's place I would fix the problem myself, but nobody but Rusty can do this. You complain about your loss of liberties and such circletimessquare... Why don't you just leave instead of complaining? Why don't you just give up and accept things the way they are? I don't see you spearheading social movements, just bitching about it on K5. Talk about fucking hypocritical.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    I did do something (3.00 / 6) (#211)
    by Stick on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 07:18:07 AM EST

    I gave Ruston a kick up the bum. The solution is for him to actually do what he sets out to do or get someone else to do it. It's not that hard. It doesn't require alot of debate.

    You're the one moaning.


    ---
    Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
    [ Parent ]

    alright, alright... (1.20 / 10) (#212)
    by circletimessquare on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 07:38:05 AM EST

    why don't you start your own site then that fixes all these problems then?

    because it seems to me, that no matter what rusty does, someone will complain, just like you, no matter how good the site is

    there will ALWAYS be whiners in this world

    after listening enough to enough of them in my life, i've found that their fountain of discontent is bottomless

    no matter what you do, no matter how much effort you exert, someone will be there, to bitch about some stupid shit

    in short, you ignore them

    because it's human nature to ignore your many blessings, and obsess on the minor irritations

    The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

    [ Parent ]

    Hah (2.75 / 4) (#231)
    by melia on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:19:55 AM EST

    there will ALWAYS be whiners in this world

    Yes, but sometimes - especially when there's a lot of people whining - it's time to accept that there's a reason.

    Of course, I don't expect you to understand this, since you ignore those that oppose you no matter how overwhelming their support or evidence.
    Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
    [ Parent ]

    Reason? (none / 3) (#259)
    by Pholostan on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:00:25 PM EST

    I don't see the reason. Some people seem to demand instant satisfaction, like they are three year old or something. Grow up.
    - And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
    [ Parent ]
    What I wanna know is.. (none / 1) (#509)
    by QuantumG on Thu Apr 29, 2004 at 01:21:44 AM EST

    Why do you always write your posts with double spacing?

    Is there some study which suggests that it is easier to read?

    Perhaps you just think that people will recognise your posts better if you use double spacing.

    Well let me tell ya something.

    We have no trouble picking your posts out of the herd.

    Why?

    Because they're always the ones that go off on insane rants about nothing in particular.

    Or are abusive.

    But don't worry.

    I'm going to be using double spacing myself from now on.

    I encourage everyone who would prefer circletimessquare to post somewhere else to also use double spacing.

    Cause I'm sure it will piss him off.

    Gun fire is the sound of freedom.
    [ Parent ]

    K5 is in teh weeds (2.11 / 18) (#216)
    by egg troll on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 08:01:36 AM EST

    "K5 has gone downhill ever since some troll rated my comment low! It deserved a 3, not a 0 and Rusty won't do anything about it!!!!!!!!1"

    He's a bondage fan, a gastronome, a sensualist
    Unparalleled for sinister lasciviousness.

    OK (2.94 / 18) (#218)
    by TheGreenLantern on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 08:31:01 AM EST

    You might look at this as just another troll comment, and I'm sure Stick has motives other than the health of K5, but quite frankly, there's more than a little truth to this.

    The fact that Rusty (not Rustv) bothered to 0 this, but as far as I can see, has not bothered to respond in any way, is more than a little disturbing. Especially in light of the drastic changes implemented/promised recently.

    Enough about the money people. I know, I know, "We were promised blah", "Yachts and monacle blah", we all like those jokes/trolls, but let's give it a rest. Those of you complaining, how much did you actually give? $5? $12? Be honest with yourselves if not with us. As for me, the text ads I bought were money well spent for the K5 I helped to sustain during that time.

    That said though, it does seem like this site has hit the wall. I know Rusty is off doing work for other entities, and I don't fault him for that at all. A man's got to do what he's got to do; but if this is the case, then we need to see some site administration delegation, or at least more-so. Again, I'm not trying to take the "We paid money he owes us blah blah blah" route, and I know it's his site and he can do with it as he sees fit. I just think that something needs to be done for the sake of the community.

    It hurts when I pee.
    Really? (none / 1) (#225)
    by gyan on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:50:31 AM EST

    Again, I'm not trying to take the "We paid money he owes us blah blah blah" route, and I know it's his site and he can do with it as he sees fit. I just think that something needs to be done for the sake of the community.

    That's contradictory. If Rusty can do as he likes, then he can choose to let the community wither away. Of course, you don't want that. So, does Rusty have any obligation?

    ********************************

    [ Parent ]

    Its no contradiction (none / 2) (#227)
    by GenerationY on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:59:42 AM EST

    if you make the assumption that Rusty has the best interests of the site in mind. If he doesn't then all this moot.

    [ Parent ]
    I meant (none / 1) (#268)
    by gyan on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:44:52 PM EST

    a contradiction in conceptions by the OP.

    ********************************

    [ Parent ]
    I gave... (none / 2) (#283)
    by CanSpice on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 03:23:30 PM EST

    I just looked back through my PayPal history, and I gave $24 to Kuro5hin on June 18, 2002. I guess that was sometime during the big fundraising push.

    I also purchased webhosting services from a company that advertises here, so I guess that's indirectly helping k5.

    I don't know, I think k5's gone a little downhill in the past couple of years, but if you stay out of the diaries then there are nuggets of gold to be found. I'm not upset over this CMF or whatever, but I wouldn't mind seeing comment search make a triumphant return. I'm not about to rail against k5 though, I still visit every day (other than weekends) and for the most part enjoy it.

    [ Parent ]

    I gave 68.00 (none / 1) (#310)
    by 0x29a on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 05:30:51 PM EST

    That is about the normal price for a average piece of software.

    Not too good, not too bad.

    [ Parent ]

    Make Rusty go away... (2.28 / 7) (#228)
    by bugmaster on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:07:13 AM EST

    Is there some technologically feasible way of just replacing Rusty with someone competent (or, perhapse, someone less apathetic) ? Rusty is gone, but perhaps someone can contact one of the other admins and get the root password from them ? Then we could put localroger (ha ! flame me ! I dare you !) or someone in charge of maintenance, fixing bugs, new features, etc. -- and hope they won't screw everything up.

    I understand all about moving to "the other site", but in reality this may be difficult, since many users have a lot of baggage associated with k5 -- usernames, comments, articles, diaries, etc. -- and such baggage is difficult to move.

    I don't think "sue Rusty for fraud" is a viable idea. First of all, it achieves no constructive purpose; second of all, we donated our money freely, we didn't actually pay for any specific good or service. What I'd do is just stop buying subscriptions, text ads, etc., until Rusty shows up and explains himself.
    >|<*:=

    no need for replacement... (3.00 / 8) (#275)
    by juju2112 on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 02:29:11 PM EST

    Perhaps we could just rebuild Rusty to be better, faster, stronger? We do have the technology.

    [ Parent ]
    You know (2.71 / 14) (#237)
    by melia on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:37:58 AM EST

    It's not really surprising that Rusty isn't replying.

    If I don't get the meal I paid for, I don't stand up, tip over the table, scream abuse at the waiters and threaten to sue, because I know that asking nicely and being polite will get me a hell of a lot further.

    (and i do try not to be a cock, that's another reason)


    Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong

    Oh yeah (2.57 / 7) (#239)
    by Dr Phil on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:40:19 AM EST

    And asking Rusty nicely has really worked in the past, right? If the staff went about their business for 10 minutes as if you weren't even standing there, you'd probably start trying to get their attention in a more obvious way too.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    10 minutes? (2.75 / 8) (#240)
    by Stick on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:42:16 AM EST

    Try 10 months.


    ---
    Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
    [ Parent ]
    I'm mostly a lurker type (2.73 / 30) (#263)
    by razumiking on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 01:25:57 PM EST

    But I've been around for a while...

    I don't think any of the things here really matter. CMF, trolls, comment search, and so forth. I don't think anyone was that attached to the idea in the first place, it's just been used as a trolling motif. It would be nice if there was a comment search, but in the end, I don't think that matters much either.

    And the trolls... Well, some of it is no big deal. Like sellison, for example. What I think is more damaging and what really ought to be stopped is the inane-type trolls. You know, like the "-1, technology" one line crap, the ascii art, GNAA, and almost all of what goes on in the diary section. They're the ones who are really creating the adversarial situation and breaking down the level of discussion. I'll tell you from experience: The most dangerous thing to a discussion site is inanity. It is the single greatest factor that destroys discourse and the most malicious (and talentless) trolls know this.

    The users are really powerless against this kind of thing and that's part of the frustration. This is the only area where I think Rusty has to do something. Get rid of accounts that don't contribute to the discussion and just post crap. Very simple, very defensible. Get rid of most of the dupe accounts that voted this article up. The majority of them probably only belong to about seven different people.

    If there's anything legitimate about this article, it's the title. Rusty has always been a part of the community and over the last several months he seems less and less so. It's not that there's something wrong with him getting on with his life, I just think people, on some level, miss him and his participation. That's legitimate, I think. I hope Rusty sees that side of this whole issue rather than just the accusations and finger pointing.

    A little would go a long way. People need some kind of ... something... to rally behind if we're going to get the site back to what it was back in the day. People need to be inspired again by the idea of kuro5hin and the possibilities of it. There are some swamps here that only Rusty can drain that are holding people back though, and I hope he'll recognize that.

    0, K5ARP rock (none / 3) (#313)
    by ShadowNode on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 06:23:41 PM EST



    [ Parent ]
    Haven't seen one of those comments in a long time. (1.00 / 5) (#316)
    by razumiking on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 06:42:20 PM EST

    I'm referring to the goatse.cx type stuff Hide the Hamster posts.

    [ Parent ]
    You haven't seen it because... (1.80 / 5) (#320)
    by The Honorable Elijah Muhammad on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 07:27:19 PM EST

    wait for it...

    rusty banned him.


    ___
    localroger is a tool.
    In memory of the You Sad Bastard thread. A part of our heritage.
    [ Parent ]
    Why? (1.50 / 4) (#365)
    by JayGarner on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 12:29:02 AM EST

    Unflattering ASCII art of Mrs. Rusty?

    [ Parent ]
    Rogerborg is not banned. (none / 2) (#420)
    by it certainly is on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 07:00:22 PM EST

    He was temporarily IP blacklisted because he ran a script against K5 and blatantly boasted about it.

    He can come back to K5 any time he wants, he chooses not to do so. Fine by me, just let everyone know he ain't banned.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Rogerborg? (none / 3) (#472)
    by RobotSlave on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 05:39:37 AM EST

    What, you mean Michael Moore?

     

    Oh, It all just gets so confusing when they don't openly acknowledge their own Sock Puppets, doesn't it?

     



    [ Parent ]

    Nobody tells me anything. (none / 0) (#485)
    by it certainly is on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 10:44:44 AM EST

    I thought he gave away the Michael Moore account, but he kept it. What a cunning stunt. Well, at least it confirms he's a stinking hypocrite.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Don't insult my pal Mike (none / 1) (#490)
    by Dr Phil on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 11:33:10 AM EST

    He certainly isn't Rogerborg, I'll tell you that.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    And y ou are, er... (none / 0) (#491)
    by it certainly is on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 11:37:50 AM EST

    a concerned passer by or something?

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Correct. (none / 1) (#492)
    by Dr Phil on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 11:51:21 AM EST

    And a member of the inner circle.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    Ooh, the INNER CIRCLE! (none / 1) (#493)
    by it certainly is on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 11:55:25 AM EST

    You mean Vlad's mailing list? Ooh, ooh, I so want to be on that, can you get me in?

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Your sarcastic attitude (none / 1) (#494)
    by Dr Phil on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 12:04:55 PM EST

    towards the inner circle has been duly noted.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    I have a top secret photograph of the inner circle (none / 0) (#508)
    by clover_kicker on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 10:21:06 PM EST

    click.
    --
    I am the very model of a K5 personality.
    I intersperse obscenity with tedious banality.

    [ Parent ]
    Congratulations! (none / 1) (#506)
    by Hide The Hamster on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 07:25:14 PM EST

    I shall now cater to your specific needs, sport! ;-) ;-)


    Free spirits are a liability.

    August 8, 2004: "it certainly is" and I had engaged in a homosexual tryst.

    [ Parent ]
    Sellison Rocks (none / 1) (#378)
    by Cackmobile on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 06:27:19 AM EST

    At first I was annoyed by him but now I love him. He gives me a laugh everytime. He puts a lot of thought into his posts. That sort of troll is ok. Your right the GNAA etc suck.

    [ Parent ]
    some reminders are in order (1.77 / 18) (#271)
    by phred on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 02:00:30 PM EST

    A while back, during the dot.com boom, everybody and their brother was doing the online thing. Kuro5hin was one of the new wonder sites, as was Slashdot, both were part of the OSDN.

    One of these sites continues as an icon of the tech world, and the other one is an embarassment to the "founder."

    One of these sites has continually fine tuned the contribution of thousands of commenters and moderators, the other site has shutdown even the new member option for fear of further embarassment which the founder has confessed that he isn't able to stop, programmatically or otherwise.

    Really, if k5 as a community can't stop the administrator from being the laughingstock of the internet, then what are you going to do? Is it really the communities fault, or is it the administrator? Some folks just don't do well in the spotlight and if your going to design and run a collaberative discussion organization, you're going to have to have an understanding of these collaberating entities, and rusty, despite knowing some computers, may just not have a clue about the actual discussing entities (you know, those typing fingers and reading eyes).

    Thats been my theory all along. Rusty may know his html, but he's never understood much beyond that and refuses to acknowledge this. While probably a nice guy to talk fishing with, in a software shop he's not going to cut it until he grows up some. I say don't sweat this place, its only going to be what rusty wants and for all we know maybe he just wants it gone, I know I would.

    uhm (none / 2) (#272)
    by Penrod Pooch on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 02:06:34 PM EST

    is slashdot an "icon of the tech world"?  when did that happen?

    [ Parent ]
    like it or not (none / 2) (#285)
    by phred on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 03:29:19 PM EST

    heck, mod me to zero, I don't care. Theres one site that handles open memberships, and theres one that doesn't.

    [ Parent ]
    that was not the question (none / 0) (#286)
    by Penrod Pooch on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 03:45:52 PM EST

    unless handling open memberships makes you a tech icon.

    [ Parent ]
    refutation (none / 3) (#287)
    by phred on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:03:43 PM EST

    I don't know why anybody wants to call slashdot a failure or otherwise pretend that its an obscure out of the way inoperative website (like k5).

    Heck, every account I've gotten there heads straight to -1 default yet you don't see me behaving like some embittered troll trying to pretend slashdot isn't the monster site that wastes millions of techies waking hours all over the world. You can go ahead and dis slash, but theres no denying its success and visibility.

    So tell me, did you get spanked there or something? Its ok with me if you don't want to talk about it.

    [ Parent ]

    counterpoint (1.20 / 5) (#288)
    by Penrod Pooch on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:04:19 PM EST

    you're wrong

    [ Parent ]
    you fold pretty quick (nt) (none / 2) (#289)
    by phred on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:17:12 PM EST



    [ Parent ]
    Origami trolling [nt] (2.60 / 10) (#290)
    by Stick on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:19:29 PM EST




    ---
    Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
    [ Parent ]
    Let's get down to brass tacks: (2.37 / 8) (#273)
    by justaghost on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 02:15:05 PM EST

    Everybody seems to keep arguing about the same shit over and over again in these comments.  It's a sure sign that people are being a little melodramatic and overemotional about the whole thing.  I suggest being a little more pragmatic.

    The real question we need to start addressing is: now that K5 is probably over, where is everyone going now?

    -----

    Not strong, only aggressive
    Not free, only licensed
    Not compassioniate, only polite
    Not good, but well behaved.

    Disneyland, or . . . (none / 2) (#276)
    by Dphitz on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 02:45:47 PM EST

    to see the new Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen film.

    I already created an account at the other site long ago. The only thing I don't like about that site is there are fewer article submissions. However, that also means there's less crap posted.


    God, please save me . . . from your followers

    [ Parent ]
    I am not a Guru (2.41 / 12) (#274)
    by Dphitz on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 02:26:59 PM EST

    and I have no idea of the scope of this but I can't help think that with so many users there seem to be too few admins. And the admins that are here don't take a strong enough stand on crap-flooders and mod-bombers. I think that were there more admins to permanently boot morons like Guile (who posts the most useless, offensive garbage here) or Suicidal Ideation (who often abuses the voting queue), this place might be cleaned up nicely.


    God, please save me . . . from your followers

    Hi Rusty (2.15 / 13) (#295)
    by psychologist on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 04:24:18 PM EST

    This is just to let you know that I support your reform course, and that for my purposes, K5 is as good as it has always been. Keep it up, old fellow, most of us are firmly behind you.

    I don't think he likes you guys anymore (2.50 / 6) (#312)
    by llamasex on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 06:11:06 PM EST

    I read this page alot less than I used to, so I might not have the most accurate perspective. I get the feeling Rusty just doesn't like this place, I recall a post Rusty made saying if he had to pay for this site, it wouldn't exist.

    It's a shame, he should just hand it over to someone who does care, I don't think he is pulling in major bucks from this place anyways.

    Howard Dean punched me in the face

    I Created a Popular Site (2.81 / 11) (#318)
    by bayers on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 06:57:10 PM EST

    I created a site that became somewhat popular.

    The userbase grew to about 8,000.

    The site had nothing to do with politics, but somehow a conversation about politics got started. People got mad. A script kiddy started attacking the site, which was bad because I wasn't that good of a programmer back then.

    Long story short, my userbase ticked me off. I closed down new memberships, banned a few members.

    Finally, I came to my senses and signed the whole thing over to a non-profit.

    Even today, in hind sight, that was a good decision.

    That is sad (none / 0) (#520)
    by truckaxle on Fri Apr 30, 2004 at 10:41:52 PM EST

    The trolls and script kiddies ruin it for everyone. An open forum has to have a mechanism to deal with scum from the beginning....

    Some like it hot Mozilla Users get an automatic %5 Discount . . .
    [ Parent ]
    Whatever happened to ADEQUACY ? (1.62 / 8) (#319)
    by Phillip Asheo on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 07:02:03 PM EST

    ADEQUACY.ORG used to serve a very valuable purpose, keeping the gullible 'biters' away from serious news sites like kuro5hin and slashdot.

    Since adequacy.org went away, there is nowhere for the unreconstructed biter to go.

    Please oh please, BRING BACK ADEQUACY. Even if it means paying AMD the $250000!!!!!!

    --
    "Never say what you can grunt. Never grunt what you can wink. Never wink what you can nod, never nod what you can shrug, and don't shrug when it ain't necessary"
    -Earl Long

    Re: Dawn of the Dead (2.00 / 6) (#322)
    by it certainly is on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 08:06:41 PM EST

    Even if it means paying AMD the $250000!!!!!!

    Biter.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Re: Dawn of the Dead (1.80 / 5) (#328)
    by rmg on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:11:51 PM EST

    Biter.

    biter.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Re: Re: your boat, gently down the stream (2.25 / 4) (#330)
    by it certainly is on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:32:33 PM EST

    Biter.

    Biter.

    Bitter biter.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Re: Re: with the trolley (none / 3) (#332)
    by rmg on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:35:22 PM EST


    Biter.

    Biter.

    Bitter biter.

    you have misquoted me, sir. i demand an apology.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Re: Re: Re: you wascally wabbit (2.25 / 4) (#333)
    by it certainly is on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:48:17 PM EST

    You have misquoted me, Sir. I demand an apology.
    First, you must apologise for your crimes against the English language.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    We: We: We: We: We: and ran all the way home (2.25 / 4) (#334)
    by rmg on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:54:51 PM EST

    the people's vanguard will not apologize for his protest of capitalism.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: POSSESSED! (2.25 / 4) (#335)
    by it certainly is on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:57:34 PM EST

    the people's vanguard will not apologize for his protest of capitalism.
    That's OK by me. But what will rmg do?

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    kill, kill, kill (2.40 / 5) (#336)
    by rmg on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 09:59:40 PM EST

    the white man.

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    I thought we covered this. (2.25 / 4) (#340)
    by it certainly is on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:11:19 PM EST

    He is going to kill the white van. Motorists of the world will no longer be cut up at the lights by a Ford Transit with "if only my wife was this dirty" written in the grime of the back doors.

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Re: I thought we covered this. (2.25 / 4) (#352)
    by orestes on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:04:02 PM EST

    You sad bastard.

    [ You Sad Bastard ]
    [ Parent ]
    You sad bastard? (none / 3) (#377)
    by grouse on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 04:17:27 AM EST


    You sad bastard!

    "Grouse please don't take this the wrong way... To be quite frank, you are throwing my inner Chi out of its harmonious balance with nature." -- Tex Bigballs
    [ Parent ]

    You sad biter. (2.25 / 4) (#401)
    by farlukar on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 02:57:20 PM EST


    ______________________
    $ make install not war

    [ Parent ]
    Re: You sad biter. (none / 0) (#514)
    by orestes on Thu Apr 29, 2004 at 01:24:27 PM EST

    You sad biter.

    [ You Sad Bastard ]
    [ Parent ]
    Re: Re: You sad biter. (none / 0) (#515)
    by farlukar on Thu Apr 29, 2004 at 02:48:54 PM EST

    <beavis>
    Heheheheh... you said "biter".
    </beavis>
    ______________________
    $ make install not war

    [ Parent ]
    biter (none / 3) (#375)
    by Phillip Asheo on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 03:17:30 AM EST

    biter

    --
    "Never say what you can grunt. Never grunt what you can wink. Never wink what you can nod, never nod what you can shrug, and don't shrug when it ain't necessary"
    -Earl Long
    [ Parent ]

    Where is Rusty? (2.00 / 7) (#337)
    by mcgrew on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 10:08:48 PM EST

    He's been kidnapped and taken into the "real world" that some call "meatspace," wherever that is.

    Personally, I don't believe this "real world" exists.

    "The entire neocon movement is dedicated to revoking mcgrew's posting priviliges. This is why we went to war with Iraq." -LilDebbie

    RUSTY HAS BEEN KIDNAPPED BY NINJAS. (2.85 / 7) (#360)
    by rmg on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:59:51 PM EST

    ARE YOU A BAD ENOUGH DUDE TO RESCUE RUSTY?

    ----

    dave dean
    [ Parent ]

    Not just any ninjas (none / 1) (#363)
    by CaptainSuperBoy on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 12:20:12 AM EST

    DRAGON NINJA

    --
    jimmysquid.com - I take pictures.
    [ Parent ]
    I read the articles. (3.00 / 9) (#354)
    by awyeah on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:17:48 PM EST

    I'll be the first to admit that I don't participate much in discussion. That's usually because by the time I get home and get to K5, I'm way too tired for a rant.

    However, I do not think this is the K5 apocalypse as a lot of you seem to be saying.

    I come here mainly to read the submitted content, not the comments. Sure, if something peaks my interest I'll look at the discussion, and once in a while, if I have something useful to say that hasn't already been said, I'll post it.

    Take a look around the site. There's still lots of interesting and intelligent content being posted. So sit back for a while, enjoy yourself and feed your brain.

    Note: This is not a "quit your whining" post. You guys can comment all you want, and it's not necessarily my place to tell you whether you're right or wrong. This is more of an observational post. Step back for a minute.

    The society for better English notes: (2.83 / 6) (#358)
    by it certainly is on Mon Apr 26, 2004 at 11:53:58 PM EST

    Sure, if something peaks my interest
    http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/peaked.html

    kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

    Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
    [ Parent ]

    Oops! (none / 0) (#361)
    by awyeah on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 12:03:34 AM EST

    Oops. Thanks for pointing that out. I actually do know this - I must have had a brain fart of some sort. :)

    [ Parent ]
    Late to the party again... (2.81 / 11) (#367)
    by toulouse on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 12:34:48 AM EST

    I understand the feeling that let to this article and "+1 section'd" it on that basis. I think that a better, fairer article could have been written but, lacking such, hoped that this might provoke the discussion / reaction that has been needed for some time.

    In the style of some others, I'll run through my reactions to these specific criticisms one at a time:

    • Collaborative Media Foundation
      As far as I'm concerned this is a complete non-issue. Yes; I'd love to see it get off the ground, but am in no particular hurry to see it happen. Things of that scale take a long time to get revved up and, should it not come to pass, it will be disappointing but completely understandable. As others have pointed out: It was unasked for and unpromised until post-fundraising. Besides handing ammunition to malcontents, its slow progress has hurt nobody.
    • Dealing with the trolls
      What trolls? A lot of the genuinely disruptive users have been successfully 'whacked' since the close of sign-ups (and most of those who haven't have been scared enough by the killings to simmer down a notch). Personally, I thought it went a wee bit too far. I'm not sure exactly what 'zipper' and 'Michael Moore' did to get kicked but, from my perspective, they'd always operated 'just inside the line' and were amusing / serious far more often than being genuinely annoying. This is a matter of perspective. I think far too many people here are grossly over-sensitive and have a knee-jerk reaction to "trolls", as if they are organized, discernible and 'alien' entities, like "martians". They're just people. Some are genuine irritants (very, very few - many of which have gone), and many of the rest contribute as much as they disrupt.
    • Fixed comment search
      Again: a complete non-issue. It would be useful if it were implemented and worked, but there's nothing rendered unfindable (or even obscured) by simply using what search facilities we have or external search engines. Again; ammunition for malcontents / aggravators and nothing more.
    • Sponsorship system
      This is one of the legitimate complaints IMO. In a Tex diary from last week I I hazarded a guess as to rusty's motivations hitherto regarding the sponsorship situation:
      " I think [rusty] was well into the idea when he started; underestimated the response; wasn't sure what to make of it; couldn't go back and open registration again because there'd be an account "land-grab" if he did; and has settled into the concept of introducing Meta-Filter by the back door in the meantime while he figures out what to do, with the option of just sticking with it.".
      This is pure speculation. I was one of those who complained vociferously about the proposed scheme, and with good reason. However, given what has happened in the meantime, it would be impossible to go back now. Momocrome has said:
      "So Rusty smartly holds off, and you wankers turn it in to another point to bitch about."
      This is highly disingenuous. The reason we argued against the proposition was because it would utterly throttle the flow of vital new lifeblood into the site. Given that barring newcomers indescriminately and absolutely (the current situation) is far, far worse, this is a legitimate and extremely relevant complaint. The original proposed sponsorship system (utterly draconian, with no green card scheme) would be infinitely more preferable to the status quo.
    • Monthly updates
      Regular communication would be nice, but is not vital. If there's nothing to report, though, it seems kind of pointless. In promising such, however, and not delivering, rusty has provided another weapon to the feckless. Perhaps a quick note along the lines of "In light of having little news, I'm revising the Monthly Update promise", would have killed these complaints before they became a problem.
    • New features
      Which features are we lacking, exactly? Scoop is pretty chock-full with features as it is. This is another non-issue in my book. Any new features are a bonus, not a prerequisite.

    The main problem with K5, IMO, and one not mentioned, but implied by the entire article, is one of Mayor Giuliani's 'Broken Windows'. People perceive the website as increasingly unmaintained and uncared for and their behaviour adjusts accordingly. 'ucblockhead' (a longtime poster and contributor here) has written "If I had an awe-inspiring article, how would it benefit me to post it here?". If community-members of long-standing have come to this conclusion, the positive input goes down and we get caught in a vicious downward spiral.

    I like this website and have been a member for lot longer than my UID implies, and would like to see it improve. If rusty's time is too pressured to give it due attention, I recommend some increased distribution of responsibility. Hell; even Hulver is increasing his admin count from 3 to 5, and HuSi is smaller than K5. I recommend giving 'aphrael' root access, and full co-responsibility. He, at least, still sees fit to contaminate himself by posting regularly.


    --
    'My god...it's full of blogs.' - ktakki
    --


    Trolls ... (1.11 / 9) (#370)
    by interrobanger on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 01:39:53 AM EST

    Some are genuine irritants (very, very few - many of which have gone), and many of the rest contribute as much as they disrupt.

    Interesting. Imagine:

    "Some murder people (very, very few - many of which have gone), and many of the rest save just as many lives as they take."

    Seem silly to extend it that far to make it look absurd? Think again. The trolls are murderers in the context of K5 -- they murder (or at least maim) many of the discussions they pop up in. The fact that they don't always behave that way means nothing at all. "Sure, he rapes women occasionally, but mostly he treats his dates with kindness and respect." Right.


    ===============
    God Hates Figs!
    [ Parent ]
    TROLLING IS MURDER (1.83 / 6) (#374)
    by Dr Phil on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 02:47:56 AM EST

    Been reading too many localroger diaries I take it?

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    [ Parent ]
    Hmmm. (3.00 / 6) (#376)
    by toulouse on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 03:25:48 AM EST

    Besides making me wish there were some mutation of Godwin's law which described the comparison of flippant ascii-typists to the takers of a human life, your post is somewhat hyperbolic.

    Upon reading your user info, I spy this:

    ... not above erecting and excoriating a straw man if your argument appears unassailable

    I'm very flattered. Thank you. ;)

    Seriously, if the trolls bother you, there is no single solution to this issue. It requires a three-pronged attack:

    1. Rate More
      As momocrome has mentioned; this site is what we make it. Ratings are the censorship mechanism. If more people rate, more stuff gets hidden. I notice you're hardly Mr.Prolific in this department :)
      (neither am I but, as mentioned, the kids don't bother me that much)
    2. Administrator Action
      One advantage of the sponsorship system, or the lock-in we have now, is that new accounts are intentionally tricky / impossible to create. Given the tendency of the kids to mod each other up, removing rating privileges for persistent abusers should have a discernable effect.
    3. Drown the noise
      In a system with greater signal, the current level of noise will seem diminished. Pen to paper (that includes all you lurkers out there)...


    --
    'My god...it's full of blogs.' - ktakki
    --


    [ Parent ]
    Broken windows. (none / 3) (#371)
    by aphrael on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 02:05:17 AM EST

    Right on. Good post, good point. Keep up the good work. :)

    [ Parent ]
    Who cares where Rusty is? (2.60 / 10) (#380)
    by h0tr0d on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 07:59:31 AM EST

    Isn't this site about us? If you have any idea what K5 is about you'd know that it's not about what features Rusty can add to Scoop. It's about the readers and what they think and write. I quote the K5 mission statement
    "Kuro5hin.org is a community of people who like to think. This is a site for people who want to discuss the world they live in. It's a site for people who are on the ground in the modern world, and who sometimes look around and wonder what they have wrought."

    "Kuro5hin relies on its readers -- it exists for you and through you."

    So get off Rusty's back and let him deal with whatever it is I'm sure he's dealing with in the real world. As you sit back and anxiously await his return just miss him, don't besiege him.

    -- It appears that my spleeing chucker isn't working again.

    Power (3.00 / 6) (#382)
    by marx on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 08:28:03 AM EST

    He has turned off new memberships. So of course it matters where he is and what he does. What's the point of continuing to build this community if he destroys it in a fit of rage?

    Join me in the War on Torture: help eradicate torture from the world by holding torturers accountable.
    [ Parent ]

    Not a good judgement standard (none / 1) (#407)
    by DrJohnEvans on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 04:39:55 PM EST

    Who says that temporarily disabling new memberships will destroy a community? Of course it doesn't encourage expansion and growth, but we are still here, and we shouldn't continually depend on new blood to keep the community alive. "The community" means us, not the people who will be here tomorrow.

    I'm not advocating long-term disabling of new memberships, but I hardly think it counts as "destroying the community". Look at MetaFilter; just a squeak of new blood every now and then, and almost too alive for its own good.

    Disclaimer of hypocrisy: I realize this argument may seem a little hypocritical as this is my first comment in many many months. I was discouraged in my visits here because of the reasons why membership closed, which is why I'm supportive of reworking the system. It's also the principle of the thing, dammit!

    --
    Proud member of the K5 Axis of Evil since 2002.
    [ Parent ]

    K5 support post (2.50 / 4) (#393)
    by dollyknot on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 01:17:45 PM EST

    The best thing going for K5 is that it is not /. not that I have anything against /. quite the opposite, I adore slashdot but note - I rarely post under my own account on slash, AC many times, my own account no. I'm glad slash has an open access policy and glad Rusty has restricted K5's signups.

    A site I visit regulaly is metafilter this is a restricted signup site, but has very good content, so is worth a visit, I don't know how metafilter's bandwidth is funded, but I should imagine bandwidth is the biggest cost in this type of operation after all hardware is dirt cheap and a one off cost.

    Obviously the other big cost on K5 is Rusty himself, in other words, what does he get out of setting up and running K5 and what does it cost him in terms of time and hassle. If people come on to his site and annoy him and he gives them the elbow - then good luck to him.

    Freedom is a good thing, freedom without responsibility can be a nightmare.

     




    They call it an elephant's trunk, whereas it is in fact an elephant's nose - a nose by any other name would smell as sweetly.
    Bandwidth (none / 1) (#400)
    by gyan on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 02:32:41 PM EST

    MeFi's bandwidth is free (funded by someone other than the founder/owner).

    ********************************

    [ Parent ]
    To fix problems on K5 (none / 3) (#395)
    by noise on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 01:31:33 PM EST

    ID verification should be used, but after the account is created the information used for verification should be destroyed. Those that choose to pay for the verification service should be allowed to post normally, and those that do not should have severely limited use of the site (no story posting, limited to a few comments a day..etc). Verified users should be able to turn off viewing of the non-verified users comments (and responses to those comments).

    Sure. (none / 3) (#474)
    by vegetablespork on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 07:55:45 AM EST

    I'll trust the operator of a blog to destroy my identity, and pay for the privilege of being "ID verified" so that I may post in said blog.

    [ Parent ]
    I suppose I could have been clearer..... (none / 0) (#523)
    by noise on Sat May 01, 2004 at 06:35:50 PM EST

    User sends info to verification service (not K5) for K5. In other words you would get your password and login from K5 (or other site) but the id verification would be provided by the verification service that never has your ID and password. So there would be no link other than application number 093817478 was verified and seeing this, K5 could then set you up as a verified user. I would certainly not recommend that either end have connecting data. That was the point of my post.

    [ Parent ]
    Interesting. (none / 1) (#524)
    by vegetablespork on Sun May 02, 2004 at 10:01:03 AM EST

    There's still the problem that lots of users who would make positive contributions would be unwilling to pay for the verification.

    [ Parent ]
    Absolutely (none / 0) (#526)
    by noise on Mon May 03, 2004 at 05:51:26 AM EST

    That is why you cut posting rights for the unverified down to minimum.
    Shitty? Sure, it is.

    [ Parent ]
    Haha! Suckers! (2.00 / 6) (#415)
    by egg troll on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 05:50:48 PM EST

    Don't you all know that Rusty has run off to South America with a pair of disturbingly hot Brazilian she-males and five kilos of Bolivian blow?

    He's a bondage fan, a gastronome, a sensualist
    Unparalleled for sinister lasciviousness.

    I knew it (none / 2) (#423)
    by Penrod Pooch on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 07:30:40 PM EST

    rustina looked a bit manly

    [ Parent ]
    C10K in K5? (2.75 / 4) (#419)
    by vqp on Tue Apr 27, 2004 at 06:48:25 PM EST

    Maybe rusty doesn't want to post because he is afraid of the "Comment 10K bug" in Scoop.
    Look at his stats

    happiness = d(Reality - Expectations) / dt

    This is all drduck's fault (2.90 / 10) (#478)
    by nebbish on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 08:45:10 AM EST

    A while ago, user drduck was rating down comments and depriving people of their trusted user status. People complained, but for whatever reason rusty decided to change the ratings system rather than ban user drduck.

    Next thing, because anyone, not just trusted users, now had the ability to 0 rate comments, so many comments were getting hidden that users had no choice than to turn on the Show Hidden Comments option, otherwise they'd miss well-made and informative comments.

    Thus the comment rating system became pretty meaningless. This meant offensive troll comments had effectively the same status as all other comments, and offensive trolling was able to flourish. In the end this led to the unfortunate incident with the photoshopping of rusty's wife.

    drduck was the most effective troll K5 has ever seen, but I do wonder why he wasn't just kicked off the site. He probably would have come back under a different name, maybe even from a different IP, but here's the thing - we'll never know because rusty never tried. And it's a real shame because that decision has led directly to the problems K5 faces now.

    ---------
    Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee

    Me too-ism (none / 2) (#488)
    by GenerationY on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 10:59:07 AM EST

    Agree entirely. I was sorry to see Trusted User status disappear. I can't help wondering if the real solution was just to make TU harder to get and to make more aspects of K5 out of the reach of non-TUs (like Diary posting). Only other TU votes counting towards TU status would of been a good plan. Yeah, one could procure TU status for troll accounts, but it would still present a sufficient hurdle to make post-TU status troll whack-a-moling a more reasonable task for admins to manage.

    Just a thought anyway.

    [ Parent ]

    my take (none / 2) (#500)
    by phred on Wed Apr 28, 2004 at 04:27:47 PM EST

    the mistake was to make rating universal, even to non-participators like drduck.

    So I don't blame drduck, the rules were there, he used them. Of course this seems obvious to me, whats not obvious to me is why it isn't obvious to rusty. He obviously knows a bit about computers, but has no working theory about collaberative media, surprising because this is supposed to be a focus of his.

    2 cents.

    [ Parent ]

    drduck also posted positive numbers... (none / 1) (#521)
    by kpaul on Sat May 01, 2004 at 12:26:31 PM EST

    although it was very rare, i saw it happen...


    2014 Halloween Costumes
    [ Parent ]

    Well (none / 1) (#511)
    by Dr Phil on Thu Apr 29, 2004 at 10:04:46 AM EST

    Looks like Rusty proved me wrong.

    *** ATTENTION *** Rusty has disabled my account for anti-Jewish views. What a fucking hypocrite.
    Rusty is here ... (none / 0) (#512)
    by tilly on Thu Apr 29, 2004 at 10:19:54 AM EST

    ... at the site news.

    I thought perhaps a lot of people may not know he expresses himself at the "site news" - the link at the upper right corner of the page.

    Apparently he's alive (none / 0) (#513)
    by Cro Magnon on Thu Apr 29, 2004 at 10:37:43 AM EST

    Unless someone's jacked his account. But, AFAICT, he still isn't doing anything about K5's problems.
    Information wants to be beer.
    [ Parent ]
    DCS: in one word ... what K5 will be in 2005 (none / 0) (#516)
    by suquux on Thu Apr 29, 2004 at 04:03:28 PM EST

    Rusty Foster: Stable.

    CC.
    All that we C or Scheme ...
    What is .linksarray? (none / 0) (#532)
    by Ta bu shi da yu on Tue May 18, 2004 at 06:01:21 AM EST

    "Rusty Foster is the founder of .linksarray[7].. He can be reached at .linksarray[8].. Robert Loch, deputy editor of Dotcom Scoop, conducted this interview. He can be reached at .linksarray[9].."

    ---
    AdTIה"the think tank that didn't".
    ה
    [ Parent ]
    Perhaps he's just bored with it (none / 0) (#530)
    by vrai on Fri May 14, 2004 at 11:43:22 AM EST

    He's been running this site for years and gets nothing but grief for it. Yes, the quality of k5 has declined and the signal to noise ratio has dropped since the golden days of 2000/1. But that's not Rusty's fault - k5 is a democracy and as such is dependent on its users to provide quality content. K5's problems are down to the trolls and other unimaginative types who are so prolific that the good stuff gets buried in the dross.

    If Rusty were to just leave k5 as is and walk away I wouldn't blame him. People move on, sites die, shit happens. I he doesn't enjoy it anymore - what's the point of continuing?

    Where is Rusty? | 533 comments (510 topical, 23 editorial, 19 hidden)
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