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A Five Point Plan for K5

By Aaron Aaronnson in Meta
Thu May 27, 2004 at 05:04:56 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)

By producing a clearly described series of simple steps, I believe I can help guide Rusty into saving Kuro5hin from its gradual decline. There's tens of thousands of registered users and the place still gets 100 thousand hits a day; it would be a shame to let it all rot away. So let's begin.

1. Cut the story post threshold

I very much believe that the current limit of 95 is too high. The majority of posted stories now tend to hit 60 to 80 and then get posted to section due to their not reaching that magic number. The current figure of 95 feels wrong: it's as if someone wanted to choose a nice big round number like 100 but didn't for fear of that being too obvious.

Lowering the post threshold to 70 or 80 would take into account the varying and dwindling size of the site. As it is, lots of decent, FP-worthy stories get dumped into the section wasteland or even rejected outright. Remember the X-Files submission a while back that got dumped with a score in the 90s? Remember "Don't Be So Fucking Fat", the volatile anti-fat tirade that got posted with a score of 17? Seems the algorithm needs a bit of a tweaking. Maybe base it on the rate of upward voting too?

2. Archive rejected stories

Yes, a lot of crap and trolling gets laid in the vote queue. The worst stories get dumped in a few minutes and are forgotten. These trolls don't need to be kept. However, there are a good number of perfectly OK stories which pick up good comments, and I often see people say things along the lines of "it's a shame this story is going to get dumped, this has some interesting threads".

My suggested implementation for this is a "keep threshold" in addition to the "post threshold" and "reject threshold". I recommend a value of 25 -- this will prevent crapfloods and generally worthless stories from taking up disk space but will catch most worthwhile stories. This would probably be one of my favourite features, as I often find myself getting caught out by the "Sorry. I can't seem to find that story." error.

If you don't want to have to make a special section for rejected stories (because then I guess they're not really rejected, are they?) then you can use the idea I stole from elsewhere of having them copied over into the user's diary with the comments. The timestamps of the comments could be as they were originally and the timestamp of the diary/story could be the time it was finally rejected at.

3. Fix comment search

OK, I understand that there's a lot of data to be searched when you trawl through comments. But when a site as massively busy and as crappily hacked together as Slashdot is able to do decent comment subject searches, there's something wrong.

C'mon, Rusty. It's been months now. We can't use the site nearly as effectively unless we can do comment searches to find old material. It would be nice to have search working. It doesn't even have to be that advanced. Just an <input type=text> for the search string and a tickbox for "Search hidden comments?". No need to implement boolean searching, or even a "Search All Words" box like Sourceforge. A simple naive "SELECT * FROM comments WHERE subj LIKE '%%'" will do the trick in MySQL.

4. Talk to us

I notice that the monthly site news updates were truly monthly as recently as the end of 2003. But after the new year we've only had one public missive from you. It seems that nothing short of an unprovoked attack on other family members will shock a response out of your jaded self. The rest of the time we just have scrappy comments on unrelated subjects. That's one proper communication with us in 147 days.

I understand that you're pissed off about gangsta producing and posting a link to The Picture. Fair enough. Get as angry as you like. That said, it is equally irresponsible to take a bustling website for discussion of politics, tech and everything else and just slam the gate shut. I could understand doing so for a few days, but it has been weeks now. How long does it take you to cool off?

If I didn't know better I'd say you just gave up on K5 and walked away without having the guts to tell us.

5. Reopen user registration

It wouldn't really be a Five Point Plan for K5 without this, would it? I know this has been chewed over time and time again, but until we hear something definite about it, I'm afraid that it's doubtful the nagging will go away. Essentially, we need to know whether or not you plan to reopen user registration, and if so, when.

If you don't want to let any new users in, fine, there's nothing I or any of us can really do about it. But I warn you that if you keep user registration closed then the site will shrink, wither and fade away. It's obvious -- of every large community website, there is a constant dripping leak of users leaving. If the site isn't kept topped up with new users, it empties.

Taking kpaul's "Scoop Scope" as a guide, there appear to be approximately 1600 active users on Kuro5hin. Relatively speaking, that's a lot, but in absolute terms, it's still pretty small, and it could run out quickly. Assuming a user loss of 4% each month, another three months of indecision would cost us nearly 200 users: an eighth of the userbase. I don't want that to happen, and if you still care about Kuro5hin as much as you used to in the past, you won't either.


Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure


Most effective idea?
o cut the post threshold 10%
o archive rejected stories 12%
o fix comment search 4%
o talk to us 35%
o reopen user registration 37%

Votes: 113
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Slashdot
o Scoop
o Kuro5hin
o the place still gets 100 thousand hits a day
o Don't Be So Fucking Fat
o elsewhere
o Slashdot [2]
o decent comment subject searches
o Sourceforg e
o one public missive from you
o scrappy comments on unrelated subjects
o gangsta
o kpaul
o Scoop Scope
o Also by Aaron Aaronnson

Display: Sort:
A Five Point Plan for K5 | 149 comments (128 topical, 21 editorial, 0 hidden)
RUSTY NEEDS TO STEP DOWN (1.44 / 43) (#1)
by Tex Bigballs on Wed May 26, 2004 at 06:01:27 PM EST



Somebody put this kid in timeout... (1.87 / 8) (#6)
by Wah on Wed May 26, 2004 at 06:39:26 PM EST

...until that capslock gets unstuck.
Help us cross the digital divide, yo.
[ Parent ]
You know whats funny abou that comment... (2.80 / 15) (#16)
by undermyne on Wed May 26, 2004 at 08:02:43 PM EST

when I first read capslock I swear it said cockslap.

Fucking dyslexia.

"You're an asshole. You are the greatest troll on this site." Some nullo

[ Parent ]
Kasreyn's Law of Dyslexia (none / 3) (#25)
by Kasreyn on Wed May 26, 2004 at 11:24:55 PM EST

If you can spell "dyslexia", you don't have it.

(In fact, I think that's probably why it's such a beast of a word. :P)


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
[ Parent ]
Shouldn't that be... (2.75 / 4) (#28)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Wed May 26, 2004 at 11:51:25 PM EST

Kasreyn's LesDicksia of Law ?

Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
Less Dicks? (none / 1) (#33)
by Kasreyn on Thu May 27, 2004 at 04:00:04 AM EST

Are you trying to insult me, sir? :P


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
[ Parent ]
hmm... (3.00 / 5) (#39)
by reklaw on Thu May 27, 2004 at 07:28:34 AM EST

... bit nasty really, isn't it, choosing a word for a condition that its sufferers won't be able to spell. Whoever names these things has a cruel streak -- there are people who sometimes have to say "I have a lithp", for example.
[ Parent ]
Just don't give hime the icepick treatment (none / 1) (#108)
by JayGarner on Thu May 27, 2004 at 11:03:43 PM EST


[ Parent ]
Respectfully, point 1 is wrong. (2.50 / 14) (#2)
by sllort on Wed May 26, 2004 at 06:06:10 PM EST

The post threshold should be raised to 200, and the ability to vote -1 removed. Don't get me started on comment moderation.
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
IAWTP in part (3.00 / 9) (#8)
by adimovk5 on Wed May 26, 2004 at 06:56:29 PM EST

I wouldn't remove the ability to vote -1. Instead, let a story get posted based on positive votes alone. If it reaches the threshold of positive numbers, it's in - period.

Use the negatives to decide whether it goes front page or not. Pick a threshhold. I'll use 100 for this example. If the difference between positive and negative is over 100, it goes to the front page. If not, it goes to the section. Too many people don't care to see it, but enough approve to post it.

Also, I'd like to see the scores retained with the heading information. It would help when I'm looking for things to read. A story with very high ratings like +300/-7 would be worth checking out first. One with +200/-103 might not. And one with +204/-405 would probably be something to pass on. People could search for the best stories in the last week, last month, et cetera either by highest positive rating or highest overall rating.

I also think it might be nice to be able to rate an article later. There are 50,000 users registered. If story ratings could be added after posting, we could have a "best of k5" area. Stories would be ranked by year and rating. New people could browse the best there is to offer here.

[ Parent ]

A very worthy compromise (none / 2) (#43)
by sllort on Thu May 27, 2004 at 10:15:53 AM EST

I have always advocated a time or rate based system, but your proprosal works within the existing voting framework, and therefore could be implemented quite easily as a stepping stone. IAWEIYP (I agree with everything in your post).
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]
Agreed (none / 3) (#15)
by duncan bayne on Wed May 26, 2004 at 08:01:41 PM EST

Vote on, yes.  Vote off, no.

[ Parent ]
*yawn* (2.68 / 16) (#3)
by thekubrix on Wed May 26, 2004 at 06:18:38 PM EST

You're biggest is action.

There have been COUNTLESS diaries, stories, and comments about how to fix this site since the shit hit the fan. But when the wheels aren't turning then the ideas are mute and trivial.

Everyone likes to compare this site to slashdot. As they should really, their rise to extreme popularity is quite interesting. But theres a big difference. The admin there immediatly started to hand out power and responcibility. And kept doing so as the site grew bigger. The SECOND you bring that capability here, then peace and prosperity will come back to K5, until then you can argue till your blue in the face,....or lose your account.

Insert pointed rebuttal here. (1.77 / 9) (#7)
by sllort on Wed May 26, 2004 at 06:42:37 PM EST

I don't even have time anymore.
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]
doh (2.75 / 4) (#9)
by thekubrix on Wed May 26, 2004 at 06:58:29 PM EST

meant this to be topical not editorial, Rusty can you fix this for me? thanks

[ Parent ]
Question (2.83 / 6) (#63)
by mcc on Thu May 27, 2004 at 06:24:43 PM EST

Are you implying that slashdot is in a state that K5 would want to emulate?

[ Parent ]
at k5 you can at least complain (3.00 / 8) (#118)
by hswerdfe on Fri May 28, 2004 at 04:46:46 AM EST

when was the last time you saw an ANTI /. story on the front page of /.?
--- meh ---
[ Parent ]
Except point one (2.84 / 13) (#4)
by nkyad on Wed May 26, 2004 at 06:23:28 PM EST

This is a sort of recurrent discussion. The threshold is a funtion of the userbase. As it is, looking at the front page, I don't see any problem with the current threshold - the older story there at this moment is from May 12th, the most recent from May 24th with a today's story in the queue going up quick. Since this is not a news site, having only the best stories from the last three or four weeks in the front page is perfectly OK by me.

As for your other points, two and three would be good to have but Scoop does not seem to have scaled well enough to support it for larger sites such as this one. Point four would also be good, but I understand The Big Picture Incident is not the main problem anymore (if it ever was) - the main problem seems to be that rusty is suffering a healthy need to work in order to keep the yatch seaworthy.

Your last point is the most urgent. We sorely miss the constant flux of new trolls and the eventual inteligent user the open registration used to bring. Photoshop happens, but throw away the work of many years over a picture would be pretty silly.

Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run

also, re: the scope... (2.71 / 7) (#19)
by kpaul on Wed May 26, 2004 at 08:51:15 PM EST

it only took in 39 stories. haven't worked on it anymore yet. is that enough to judge current populace? i did miss a couple 'big number of votes' stories. that was another interesting set of numbers -

2014 Halloween Costumes

Why only 39? (none / 2) (#30)
by nkyad on Thu May 27, 2004 at 02:15:37 AM EST

I don't believe you manually entered the data. You didn't, right? So, since you have the engine in place, it should be trivial to make it crawl throught the site reading as many stories as you want. Since it is site-specific, you can even shortcut the crawling code with pre-formatted url parts...

Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run

[ Parent ]
i'm getting the bugs out first... (none / 2) (#42)
by kpaul on Thu May 27, 2004 at 10:14:06 AM EST

i'll eventually try to crawl a bigger portion of the site.

2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]

Why only 39? (none / 2) (#52)
by killmepleez on Thu May 27, 2004 at 01:40:52 PM EST

Biblical numerology.

"I instantly realized that everything in my life that I thought was unfixable was totally fixable - except for having just jumped."
--from "J
[ Parent ]
heh. no, manually. [mt] (none / 1) (#104)
by kpaul on Thu May 27, 2004 at 10:15:22 PM EST

2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]
kuro5hin is like a fat girlfriend. (2.59 / 37) (#20)
by rmg on Wed May 26, 2004 at 09:20:24 PM EST

it has problems that will never go away even though you constantly whine and nag about it. at the same time, you're a sentimental sucker (manifestly -- you have a fat girlfriend) and your emotional attachment won't let you leave.

your only option is to piss her off so much she kicks you out of her mother's basement, throws your stuff all over the lawn in the middle of a summer storm, and gets a restraining order.


i ♥ legitimate users.

dave dean

Damn bro (1.16 / 12) (#86)
by Single White Coder on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:39:02 PM EST

Only a Kuroded little white geek boy could so accurately describe the inner-workings of a relationship with a fat white American slut.

I have a newfound respect for you, kind of like how I respect the Jews for being slaughtered and shit.

I Offer No Apologies For Being Motivated By The Basest Desires (Excessive Amounts Of Sex, Food, & Sleep)

[ Biker Blog ]

[ Parent ]

As a man who basically did just that (none / 1) (#148)
by leviramsey on Sun Jun 06, 2004 at 04:47:30 PM EST

...I commend you!

If 5'11", 230 counts as fat and pulling such stunts as refusing her entreaties for sex because I was too busy configuring postfix counts as pissing her off enough...

[ Parent ]
+1FP, boring rusty-bashing (1.50 / 20) (#22)
by cute fluffy Troll on Wed May 26, 2004 at 10:21:22 PM EST

Comments are still there (2.75 / 28) (#23)
by J'raxis on Wed May 26, 2004 at 10:22:09 PM EST

If you have a URL to a dumped story, such as:

Change it to:


Voilà, there are the comments.

— J’raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]

'Keep Threshold' (2.94 / 19) (#24)
by Kasreyn on Wed May 26, 2004 at 11:12:02 PM EST

Fine, fine: as long as only site users can see the "kept" dumped story.

The stories posted are k5's face and appearance to the outside, non-user world. I don't want them seeing our dirty laundry. :P


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
I agree with everything but 4. (2.85 / 7) (#26)
by LittleZephyr on Wed May 26, 2004 at 11:46:35 PM EST

I think the best role for Rusty would be "man behind the curtain". Frankly I don't care who runs the site, and long as it works and people can post to it, I'm happy. Why should Rusty talk to us. He should be worrying about the CMF, not crap at K5 right now.
(\♥/) What if instead of posting that comment,
(0.-) you had actually taken a knife and stabbed
("_") me in the eye? You murderer. ~ Rusty

Agree/disagree (2.83 / 6) (#50)
by ZorbaTHut on Thu May 27, 2004 at 01:27:21 PM EST

If he says "I'm not going to post any more monthly updates", I agree. However, he hasn't. He's said he will. If he says he will, he should - only he hasn't.

Wow, this is the most confusing comment I've ever written.

[ Parent ]

+1 just cause the dude has two first names (n/t) (1.10 / 10) (#31)
by m a r c on Thu May 27, 2004 at 02:31:35 AM EST

I got a dog and named him "Stay". Now, I go "Come here, Stay!". After a while, the dog went insane and wouldn't move at all.
Wasted vote then (none / 2) (#35)
by trezor on Thu May 27, 2004 at 04:24:40 AM EST

The second is a surname (of nordic ancestery I might add), and who knows if it's even real. These are after all so called "nicknames".

Richard Dean Anderson porn? - Now spread the news

[ Parent ]
It's misspelled (none / 0) (#125)
by marx on Fri May 28, 2004 at 11:13:20 AM EST

It should be "Aronsson", or at least "Aaronsson". So it's probably not a real name.

Join me in the War on Torture: help eradicate torture from the world by holding torturers accountable.
[ Parent ]

0, Like it matters (1.33 / 9) (#34)
by trezor on Thu May 27, 2004 at 04:22:46 AM EST

Rusty left the site and is just waiting for the avarage consumed bandwidth to reach zero and he'll shut it down.

It's not like we can expect anything from that guy anytime soon or ever again.

Good ideas though, if they'd be implemented. So I won't -1 the story.

Richard Dean Anderson porn? - Now spread the news

Story post threshold (2.63 / 11) (#36)
by smg on Thu May 27, 2004 at 04:51:28 AM EST

K5's post threshold systems has always been a dumb idea. Why?

Firstly, because there's no mathematical basis behind the threshold system. It seems to have been developed through trial and error. In other words, it's mathematically meaningless.

But if you performed a trivial statistical analysis on the voting results you could say something much more meaningful, like "the story should be posted if there is an 90% probability that 60% of the userbase would vote 1 or more, based on the current sample".

Secondly, it's dumb because it combines two utterly separate issues. Voting is used to answer two different questions:

  1. How good is this article?, and
  2. Does it belong somewhere on the website?
It's easy to answer 1 with voting. Just ask readers: is this article good or whack?. Use an averaging system (likes comments) rather than a cumulative system. Instead of just 4 values, a 1-10 score would be simpler, more intuitive and more useful.

But question 2 is more complicated, and I don't think voting should be used to answer it. You see, k5 goes through patches where nothing gets submitted. And then other patches where lots of stories are submitted.

To keep a website alive, you need new content, even if it's shite. You may not like this, but it's true. Crap content is better than no content.

So it makes sense that the post threshold should vary dynamically with the amount of stories submitted. If it's a story drought, it should go down to 7/10. If there's a flood of stories, it should be raised to 9/10. (To use my new scoring system).

It would be trivial to code an algorithm to automatically to keep the story post threshold at a level where there is a steady flow of articles.

But all this is academic, of course. K5 is finished, dead, departed, ceased to be, pushing daisies, bereft of life, stiff, etc, etc. Rusty won't be changing anything. Hell, I doubt he'd piss on K5's server if it was on fire.

I just don't think it's useful to discuss problems with K5, except in the "what lessons have we learned from K5" sense.

For the crap stories: (2.25 / 4) (#47)
by stilch on Thu May 27, 2004 at 12:59:52 PM EST

New categories:

Rants, 2 bit opinions, trolls

[ Parent ]

I really like the 1-10 rating - and I'd add this: (none / 2) (#126)
by fyngyrz on Fri May 28, 2004 at 12:11:28 PM EST

Rather than a dynamic rating for what gets to front page (or section), let me set my own threshold.

If I want to see stories at 7, but you want to see stories at 9, then we get different front pages. A default could be set for new users, which they could then modify.

Blog, Photos.
[ Parent ]

you know what happened to... (2.88 / 9) (#37)
by dimaq on Thu May 27, 2004 at 05:18:20 AM EST

Five Year Plans?

Voted up (2.33 / 9) (#38)
by nebbish on Thu May 27, 2004 at 06:17:30 AM EST

Because spamming the front page with meta articles seems to be the only option left to us to get rusty to tell us what he is doing.

Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee

IAWTP [nt] (none / 1) (#49)
by Aaron Aaronnson on Thu May 27, 2004 at 01:23:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]
In all honesty (none / 2) (#65)
by mcc on Thu May 27, 2004 at 06:28:55 PM EST

I do not quite see when or where spamming the front page with meta articles has resulted in rusty telling us what he is doing.

[ Parent ]
it's like dancing for rain (3.00 / 10) (#71)
by Wah on Thu May 27, 2004 at 07:39:43 PM EST

whether it rains or not...it gives you something to do together as a community.
Help us cross the digital divide, yo.
[ Parent ]
no.... (none / 2) (#97)
by horny smurf on Thu May 27, 2004 at 09:30:05 PM EST

but photoshopping his wife onto porn pics gets a response!

[ Parent ]
bah (none / 0) (#128)
by Usurper on Fri May 28, 2004 at 01:06:09 PM EST

I'm fairly new, and this is my second comment ever, so surely my opinion doesn't count.  However, I have to say that seeing meta articles on the front page makes me want to come here less and less.  This is just making it a less pleasant place for the people who ARE registered.

If there was one thing I could change about K5, it'd be making it impossible for meta articles to EVER hit the front page.  I don't mind admin announcements, mind you, not that anyone's expecting any....

Who knows.  Maybe Rusty has said to himself, "I'm going to reopen registration...30 days after the last whiny 'Rusty abandoned us!' post."  At this rate, it'll never happen.

[ Parent ]

It wouldn't happen (none / 1) (#140)
by Koutetsu on Sat May 29, 2004 at 06:51:47 PM EST

Because if such an incredibly inane requirement were set up, every troll on the site would jump up and down on that magic button.

If trolls are good at one thing, they're good at getting salt in the wounds of bad administration.

[ Parent ]

K6 (2.66 / 15) (#40)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:18:09 AM EST

Hello there, I'm the Last Honest K5 User, and I'd like to say that despite the identity of the author of this story I've given it the old college +1.

Yes friends, this is a time of crisis. Though Rusty loves democracy and though Rusty loves the republic, his priorities have clearly shifted and, for some unfathomable reason, this website (sniff -- this community) is no longer his principal raisin eater. We slink in the shadow of his apathy.

I suggest that new leadership is needed. I move for a vote of no confidence.

We need new blood. Some fresh pup who hasn't been jaded by the pornotrolls needs to start K6 -- a Scoop site that blatantly rips off all that is good about K5, but leaves behind some of the problems (more sensible voting thresholds, functional comment search, more timely proclamations from on-high, etc., etc.). In fact, the page layout and graphics should also be ripped off, since the CMF will never sue.

K6 ladies and gentlemen. It is our only hope. You heard it here first.

(I am not knowledgeable enough to run a Scoop site myself. I am also too cynical and too much of a clown. To Simpson: why can't somebody else dop it? Thank you, and good night.)

The quest for the Grail is the quest for that which is holy in all of us. Plus, I really need a place to keep my juice.
Is this a platform speech? (2.75 / 4) (#44)
by sllort on Thu May 27, 2004 at 10:18:42 AM EST

You are already nominated for president of the CMF, you know.
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]
There's No Such Thing. (2.33 / 6) (#53)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Thu May 27, 2004 at 01:52:31 PM EST

The CMF is a figment of your deranged imagination, like the tooth faerie and Tex Bigballs.

The quest for the Grail is the quest for that which is holy in all of us. Plus, I really need a place to keep my juice.
[ Parent ]
Interestingly (none / 3) (#54)
by sllort on Thu May 27, 2004 at 02:00:18 PM EST

Whether or nor your statement is true is a question only the CMF president can answer. If, once elected, the president says "I am president of NOTHING", then you are correct.

Does this mean you accept the nomination?
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]

No. (none / 2) (#55)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Thu May 27, 2004 at 02:07:41 PM EST

While I applaud your initiative, I must respectfully beg off.

The quest for the Grail is the quest for that which is holy in all of us. Plus, I really need a place to keep my juice.
[ Parent ]
Hey, I've been reading the Republic lately... (2.75 / 4) (#88)
by Ta bu shi da yu on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:40:42 PM EST

... and this kind of reminds me about the bit where Socrates asserts that the only just leader is a reluctant leader. In fact, he pretty much says that a just leader needs to be forced into leadership by the populace!

So you're it. Actually, Rusty is it because he's pretty reluctant at the moment.

Dammit, Rusty come back!

AdTIה"the think tank that didn't".
[ Parent ]

Hell, call it a fork. (2.75 / 4) (#61)
by bjlhct on Thu May 27, 2004 at 05:47:57 PM EST

Rip off the comment, story, and user databases too.

[kur0(or)5hin http://www.kuro5hin.org/intelligence] - drowning your sorrows in intellectualism
[ Parent ]
How do one pronounces Kuro6hin? (none / 2) (#64)
by nkyad on Thu May 27, 2004 at 06:25:57 PM EST

I tend to pronounce "5hin" as "chin". I guess "6hin" would  sound more like "sim".

Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run

[ Parent ]
"gh" (none / 3) (#74)
by Emissary on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:13:28 PM EST

ask SpaceGhoti.

"Be instead like Gamera -- mighty, a friend to children, and always, always screaming." - eSolutions
[ Parent ]
We'd Still Call It "Corrosion" (none / 3) (#77)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:22:42 PM EST

It would be the first item in the FAQ, I figger.

(The precedent was set by Burns' son on The Simpsons when he spelled "Yale" with a 6, I believe.)

The quest for the Grail is the quest for that which is holy in all of us. Plus, I really need a place to keep my juice.
[ Parent ]
I am interested in your proposal (none / 3) (#87)
by melia on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:40:18 PM EST

Where do we get hosting from? We could petition Voxel dot net for sponsorship. Or pick their major rival and ask them. That's my suggestion.

Doesn't K5 need about 250GB a month? I looked at their website, it's about $140 a month for 500GB, we'd need a lot less than that to start. 140 people paying $1 a month - I could be up for that, but I'd need more guarantees than you lot got when you chipped in for Rusty's boat. Probably more say in general stuff too.
Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
[ Parent ]

It's cheaper than that... (none / 2) (#117)
by ramayer on Fri May 28, 2004 at 02:16:25 AM EST

You can get a dedicated server from server4you.com with 700GB bandwidth for $49/month.

You can pretty much install whatever SW you want on it as well. I don't know if 1 server would handle k5 (scratch that! k6!!!) but I suspect it could.

[ Parent ]

KuroGin (nt) (none / 2) (#98)
by The Turd Report on Thu May 27, 2004 at 09:34:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
kuro-sex-hin? [mt] (none / 3) (#113)
by kpaul on Fri May 28, 2004 at 12:37:00 AM EST

2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]
Maybe (none / 3) (#100)
by anothertom on Thu May 27, 2004 at 09:49:02 PM EST

but keep your hands off the layout! It's one of the best on the net.

[ Parent ]
already been done (none / 2) (#127)
by damiam on Fri May 28, 2004 at 12:24:16 PM EST

right here

[ Parent ]
Bad news (none / 2) (#132)
by ucblockhead on Fri May 28, 2004 at 03:42:55 PM EST

kuro6hin.org is taken.
This is k5. We're all tools - duxup
[ Parent ]
Watch it, Neo. (1.11 / 9) (#48)
by SanSeveroPrince on Thu May 27, 2004 at 01:06:41 PM EST

No one really cares. We really come here to be Rusty's towel boys, and to let lots of right wing types abuse us.

Think last remnants of humanity trapped in a browser-based Matrix. What makes you think we'd welcome a change for the better? We like our gritty, sucky world.

Your ideals offend our senses. You are the actuality of the possibility of the manifestation of an occurrence of an anomaly. You will be assimilated.


Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think

+1 fp, and why: (2.14 / 7) (#58)
by circletimessquare on Thu May 27, 2004 at 05:09:42 PM EST

i am sick of countless metadiscussions about kuro5hin and its fate

but i am more sick of rusty's neglect and the no new users situation

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

LET'S BUY KURO5HIN (2.45 / 11) (#59)
by circletimessquare on Thu May 27, 2004 at 05:12:42 PM EST

w00t! my +1 fp vote just put the story on the front page

in celebration, here's my deal:

rusty should sell the site to a bunch of us

a number of people in this story and in other threads have suggested so

between socratesghost and i, we already have a pledge of $4K:

anyone else want to pony up an amount and see how much we might get?

respond to this post, and i'll start a diary of a running tally of what we get in terms of $ pledges if there is enough interest

then we'll approach rusty with an offer

(any ideas on what the threshold for an offer should be from any moonlighting internet real estate appraisers out there?)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

what!? (none / 2) (#66)
by reklaw on Thu May 27, 2004 at 06:33:35 PM EST

You'd pay £4000 for k5?

I have a bridge to sell you...
[ Parent ]

Thtat's only ~2200 (none / 0) (#70)
by llimllib on Thu May 27, 2004 at 07:25:01 PM EST

still a lot, but not quite as much.

[ Parent ]
well (none / 0) (#81)
by reklaw on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:32:43 PM EST

if someone wants to donate £2200 to my community project, I'd make it damn good. Really.
[ Parent ]
why buy your pipe dream? (none / 0) (#83)
by circletimessquare on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:34:19 PM EST

when kuro5hin is already real with lots of members?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
because (none / 0) (#85)
by reklaw on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:36:15 PM EST

k5 = old and teh borken
[ Parent ]
k5=bazillion members... (none / 1) (#90)
by circletimessquare on Thu May 27, 2004 at 09:15:06 PM EST

reklaws outhouse o fun= 0 members

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
rewind however many years (none / 0) (#91)
by reklaw on Thu May 27, 2004 at 09:16:12 PM EST

slashdot = bazillion members
k5 = 0 members

such things are not set in stone.
[ Parent ]

d00d... (none / 0) (#94)
by circletimessquare on Thu May 27, 2004 at 09:17:11 PM EST

for every k5 and /. there are a bazillion 0 member sites

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
that's because (none / 1) (#95)
by reklaw on Thu May 27, 2004 at 09:17:44 PM EST

they suck.
[ Parent ]
no, some of them are good (none / 0) (#102)
by circletimessquare on Thu May 27, 2004 at 10:04:59 PM EST

like being a musician, or an artist, success is a combination of quality and luck, and the odds of achieving it are very much against you

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
what you should be arguing... (none / 0) (#112)
by Wah on Fri May 28, 2004 at 12:24:46 AM EST

...is inertia.  It's the thing of value that k5, as an internet institution, has to offer.

And we did already buy it.  You can set up your own over a weekend or two and start building it up.  If you act like a hot chick, or bang some government people (ass sex is extra), you'll get all the exposure and users you could ever want.

Go for it.  You have the talent, but do you have the desire?
umm, holding, holding...
[ Parent ]

I'll thow in $8 (none / 1) (#72)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:02:35 PM EST

But here's the thing.  The actual value of the site is very low.  He'd probably give it away.  The problem is finding people who are willing run the site which could be a lot of work.

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour
[ Parent ]
are you kidding? (none / 0) (#82)
by circletimessquare on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:33:38 PM EST

plenty would do it for free for ego and challenge

but even so, they would be paid with a share of the profits from advertising

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Maybe (none / 1) (#101)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Thu May 27, 2004 at 09:57:43 PM EST

Well rusty would probably give the site to people he sort of trusts to run it.  I don't think many people would really want to run this site.

And like I'm saying, I think the site generates little or no profit.

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour
[ Parent ]

Ermmmm (none / 2) (#75)
by toulouse on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:20:03 PM EST

Didn't we buy it once already?...

'My god...it's full of blogs.' - ktakki

[ Parent ]
? (nt) (none / 0) (#80)
by circletimessquare on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:32:36 PM EST

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
well (3.00 / 4) (#84)
by reklaw on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:35:21 PM EST


Over the course of past week, I've seen a lot of explanations both here and around the net of exactly what we were raising money for.

I think the clearest way I can put it is: you just purchased Kuro5hin.org.
[ Parent ]

Do we sell advertising? (none / 3) (#76)
by melia on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:21:06 PM EST

A real collaborative media foundation would be like a co-op or something, or a building society. (Do you have those in America?) You put money in, then share the profits.

That way we not only produce the content but own the means of publishing it as well.

I would chip in a whole ten of the Queen's English pounds if I was buying some sort of share. The advertising at the moment is non-invasive and surely could meet and exceed costs with more active leadership - and article-writers with more of a stake in the site.

Unfortunately to make it a real collaborative effort would involve continually diluting the pool of owners... (decreasing the value of my share!) I don't really know how co-ops work, but it's the appropriate model for a site like this :)

P.S. I think Rusty was a fine manager in his day and am perfectly willing to give him a "second chance" (if you see what I mean, it's his site, it's not like he needs my approval) - but I fear unless he recovers soon, it will be too late and the mood of his audience will permanently sour.

Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
[ Parent ]

any lawyers out there? willing to write us a doc? (none / 0) (#79)
by circletimessquare on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:32:08 PM EST

sure, coop... invest, and share profits and ownership

we just need a lawyer (we know your out there!) to write us up the doc for free (or some shares ;-P)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

A brief google (none / 2) (#89)
by melia on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:49:40 PM EST

suggests that there's lots of resources about where to start, although we will need a lawyer.

From the look of it I am a genus - a co-op is the perfect model. Plus, I can make some small amount of money off my tenner :)

>~4.5% and i'm happy.
Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
[ Parent ]

props! (none / 0) (#92)
by circletimessquare on Thu May 27, 2004 at 09:16:21 PM EST

now lets get some coop members ;-)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
whatchu talkin' 'bout willis? (none / 1) (#110)
by rmg on Thu May 27, 2004 at 11:52:05 PM EST

people already bought the site once. it didn't work.

it's true that for this site to move forward, rusty needs to step aside. on the other hand, his name and reputation are tied very tightly to this site, as is the scoop project (such as it is). he cannot relinquish ownership of it, nor i think, and certainly he thinks, control of it.

in short, you can't get rid of rusty. at the same time, you can't influence rusty because he doesn't seem to care much anymore, at least to the extent that he doesn't want to have to actually code anything new. he's not interested in input from the userbase or if he is, he has not shown any consideration through action. this leaves concerned citizens like you and i in a tight spot.

basically, we're screwed. if we can't broker some sort of purchase of k5 (and i don't think we can), then we're left with the options of sticking to the site as is or starting a new site, which will never be able to achieve the userbase k5 already has.

of course, it occurs to me that there's a third way. those who want to get the articles that k5 has without the diary wankfest hulver's site has can go to satanosphere. true, it's a design nightmare, but it's more or less in line with what k5 is now minus the trolls. the management there is likely to be much more proactive than rusty is. of course, you'll have to write the articles yourself, but that's what you do here anyway.


i ♥ legitimate users.

dave dean
[ Parent ]

Why do you hate democracy? (none / 1) (#114)
by Armin Hardwood on Fri May 28, 2004 at 12:57:28 AM EST

Instead of buying the site, put that money toward your CMF Presidential Election campaign and buy your way into power like a real American.

[ Parent ]
Does Rusty hate us? (1.20 / 15) (#60)
by ibuckyourfutt on Thu May 27, 2004 at 05:39:30 PM EST

hwo could rusty do this to us?!?!??!??

i want a new acct

plz rusty give us back kk5 bcuz u are cool


Post source IP addresses /hostnames of posters...? (2.00 / 4) (#62)
by DGolden on Thu May 27, 2004 at 06:22:48 PM EST

I emailed the suggestion in a while back, but it probably went straight into the k5 spambucket.

Seems to work quite well on several sites.
Don't eat yellow snow

why post IP addresses? (3.00 / 4) (#68)
by adimovk5 on Thu May 27, 2004 at 06:59:51 PM EST

  1. If it's impossible to be anonymous, many people won't join the site.
  2. Some people have dynamic addresses instead of static ones.
  3. Some people are capable of spoofing or anonymizing their IP.

[ Parent ]
Ctd. (none / 2) (#78)
by toulouse on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:23:38 PM EST

4. Proxies
5. NAT
6. DOS attacks (although this could be countered by using a decent hash)

In all fairness, 1.'s a bit moot at present.

'My god...it's full of blogs.' - ktakki

[ Parent ]
Conspiracy theory (2.90 / 10) (#67)
by srutis on Thu May 27, 2004 at 06:46:33 PM EST

As rusty is active on the site (~30 comments the last week alone), but simply not saying anything to the current situation, I propose the following theory: We are all part of a large scale virtual social experiment. Will a fixed population of anonymous persons, now without their benevolent dictator, organize themselves, fend of the trolls. Or will it mangle itself to death.

It up to us all to choose ...

Given the weapons... (2.83 / 6) (#69)
by emmons on Thu May 27, 2004 at 07:22:11 PM EST

We'd all love to go troll hunting, I'm sure. Problem is we don't have any guns.

In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams

[ Parent ]
Who's got the freakin' guns, mang? nt (none / 2) (#93)
by Wah on Thu May 27, 2004 at 09:16:38 PM EST

Help us cross the digital divide, yo.
[ Parent ]
Rusty, yo (none / 3) (#133)
by emmons on Fri May 28, 2004 at 04:50:19 PM EST

But he won't open up the gun cabinet, or even lend the keys to someone else while he sits and watches the hoarde of trolls ruin the furnature.

In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams

[ Parent ]
rusty doesn't want to run the site anymore (2.87 / 8) (#73)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Thu May 27, 2004 at 08:10:11 PM EST

He has a real job working for DailyKos.  He doesn't make money off of K5 and never will and I think he's sick of running it.

So he cut off registeration so the site can sort of run with little to no work on his part.  He might not like the site but he also has little reason to shut it down so I think he'll just leave it like it is.

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour

My additions... (2.66 / 6) (#96)
by dmw on Thu May 27, 2004 at 09:24:24 PM EST

Might I also add:

a) The invite system: as can be seen over at Orkut, this works a treat. Sure, the userbase might be a bunch of socialite twonks, but they have a nice big referral tree in their database.

b) Aggressive removal of trolls on sight. A "zero tolerance" policy, if you like. One guy has put a hell of a lot of effort into this site, and as far as I am concerned, it is his right to choose at his own disgression, when things have got this bad, who the hell should stay and who should go. Sure, people will get burned, but "the needs of the few outway the needs of the many".

With the referral tree above, groups of trolls can be weeded out with ease, and holes can be plugged. I don't expect this to last forever, but in the present climate, K5 is a wounded, rotting animal, hunted by a pack of bloodlusting vermin. When the wounds heal, the vermin will loose the scent, grow some pubes, and go get laid.

c) Addition of new site policy to include wider justification for management termination of accounts. I'm not talking censorship here, but something along the lines of:

  1. A definition of what positive participation in K5 means, and what exactly your user account is for.

  2. An explanation of the size K5's audience, what they want to read on the site, and what you should be posting about.

  3. An explanation of the consequences of talking complete shite, engaging in random acts of flaming, or otherwise not participating constructively in an ongoing topic.

I think more or less the largest single problem with K5 isn't new material, it is still forthcoming, it is the pack of wankers who are ruining it for everyone else. Criminalisation and "shoot to kill" is from my standpoint the best (if only) way the infestation will ever end.

Failing that, Rusty, have you considered appointing a more responsive committee to tend to the site? Again, you have done a fine job until now, but I fear you are either working on a secret masterplan to end all this (which has a very large chance of failing) or you are simply ignoring the issue altogether.

This is of course all IMHO.

Regardless of all the above, there is one simple fact that every user of K5 must accept, and that is simple: if the situation is going to change, K5 will have to seriously refactor. You might not like change, but your favourite site is about to die because of your lack of enthusiasm.

Stop your crying, and at least try some of the new ideas proposed by people. You never know, they may just work. And if they don't? "ROLLBACK;"


Heh (2.60 / 5) (#99)
by squidgee on Thu May 27, 2004 at 09:40:20 PM EST

I left K5 for a while, and then came back a few weeks ago. Needless to say, when I came back I was shocked. Not at what had happen (I mean, seriously; trolls are out there, get over it), but instead by what a sped Rusty was about it. I mean, what the hell? Someone posts an offense image involving his family, and instead of just banning people who post it he fucking kills the site. Unbelievable.
By reading the previous statement(s) you agree to these terms
sped? (none / 2) (#106)
by kpaul on Thu May 27, 2004 at 10:19:42 PM EST

also, the site's not dead (yet).

it's just a flesh wound!


2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]

It's a flesh wound all right! (none / 1) (#116)
by MessiahWWKD on Fri May 28, 2004 at 01:35:15 AM EST

A flesh wound that's going to kill the site!
Sent from my iPad
[ Parent ]
Hey. (none / 1) (#124)
by Ta bu shi da yu on Fri May 28, 2004 at 10:48:13 AM EST

If a sucking chest wound is just nature's way of telling you to stay out of a firefight, I think that we can safely say that Rusty is doing just that.

AdTIה"the think tank that didn't".
[ Parent ]
news flash (2.55 / 9) (#103)
by techwolf on Thu May 27, 2004 at 10:08:23 PM EST

Rusty has a job, hell maybe two or three, it doesn't really matter anyways. He just does not give a flying mokey's arse about K5. so he is going to let it cruise on autopiliot and give us all the bird as we pass. The CMF ammounted to nothing and that 70K+ went into his pocket and shortly after he said peace out suckers.

Rusty is a bitch and K5 is dead, it just doesn't know it yet.

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson

rusty is in love with k5 just like the rest of us (2.80 / 5) (#105)
by kpaul on Thu May 27, 2004 at 10:18:06 PM EST

sure, some may be here because they hate the site and ideas behind it, but as a whole i imagine most of us are in love with her.

a bizarro world love polygon, many points of interest.

2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]

If Rusty loves K5 so much (none / 2) (#145)
by techwolf on Tue Jun 01, 2004 at 03:41:56 PM EST

Then where is the CMF and where are the site fixes, where is that 70K+ and to what nifty hardware did the money pay for (rusty DID say he was going to upgrade to improve the site speed.) what happened to Rusty making this site his job like he wanted? Gone...all of it hell We had to fnd out that Rusty was no longer going to do K5 as a job by other members running across his name as a full time consultant on some companys website.

I say again Rusty is a bitch and K5 is dead or dying.

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]

speaking of invite only system... (none / 3) (#107)
by kpaul on Thu May 27, 2004 at 10:24:49 PM EST

maybe a 'loner' could be let into the site/community without a referral by posting several really great stories.

that way, even if they're a troll, at least they're a rather intelligent and amusing one. ;)

2014 Halloween Costumes

Lack of communication (3.00 / 5) (#109)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Thu May 27, 2004 at 11:05:00 PM EST

I understand that this is Rusty's site, and I think that in general, the K5 community (or atleast the vocal troll part of the community) are making a mountain out of a mole hill. But there is one thing that really fucks people off, and that's a lack of communication.

People take to being ignored negativly. When you don't communicate at all, people think the worse, and start making up conspiracies etc.

Rusty doesn't need post a long reply, or even answer any of the questions. But what he does need to do is atleast simply acknowledge the community's concerns.

a two part plan for kuro5hin *users* (1.75 / 12) (#111)
by rmg on Fri May 28, 2004 at 12:01:45 AM EST

k5 is dead and we have killed it. it's time to move on. but where do we go, you ask?


  1. are you a blogging wanker who likes reading and writing diaries?

    then go to hulver's site.

  2. are you a lame assed nerd who likes articles about technology and culture?

    then go to satanosphere.

those two categories should get almost all of you. (and i guess if you are gay, a nigger, and a gay nigger, you can go to geekizoid or some damned thing.) if you fit into both of the categories above, you can sign up at both sites free of charge.

now a note on satanosphere: the design of the site is fucking horrible (white on black) and it's pretty small compared to k5 and even hulver's site. it's a scoop site, though, which means that if you come, you will build it, better than it was before: stronger, faster, etc. just show up and see what happens. i'm sure it will work out for the best.


i ♥ legitimate users.

dave dean

You have forgotten the most important thing (2.20 / 5) (#115)
by EvilTri on Fri May 28, 2004 at 01:13:33 AM EST

Kuro5hin's decline can clearly be correlated to the disappearance of the "I don't care (0)" story voting option.

What's this "abstain" business?

Proposal (3.00 / 10) (#119)
by davidmb on Fri May 28, 2004 at 06:34:04 AM EST

In addition to the current voting-threshold-gets-stories-posted system, I propose the following addition:

When you vote on a story, K5 obeys. If you vote a story to the front page, it instantly moves to the front page. Same for section. If you vote to dump it, it disappears. Obviously this only applies to your personal view of K5.

It follows that if you're the sort of person who hates Iraq stories but loves Israel ones for example), you could customise the front page regardless of how everyone else votes.

Where you haven't voted on a story, the system works exactly as it does now, so you can leave other people to judge whether the stories are worth reading.

Reenactment of the real question (2.72 / 25) (#121)
by K5 ASCII reenactment players on Fri May 28, 2004 at 08:01:08 AM EST

              __           ...BUT RUSTY IS OFF YACHTING...
  /|\  /|\   __/|
  /|\  /|\  __/|                   ov  Avast, ye salty sea dogs.
  /|\  /|\   /|                  _</_
___|____|___/___             ~~~C_/__D~~~~


  *fap*    O   Huh? Hey! Closed meeting! Get out!
   *fap*  <\
    *fap*  |`

Are front page google ads out of the question? (none / 3) (#122)
by Jay Digital on Fri May 28, 2004 at 09:37:22 AM EST

K5: a bad newspaper (2.66 / 6) (#123)
by sethadam1 on Fri May 28, 2004 at 09:43:57 AM EST

Some bad 80's newspaper movie contains a line that can be summed up as follows:

"When we stop reporting the news because we actually ARE the news, we've become irrelevant."

K5 is nothing but meta-chat about K5.  I'm sick of hearing about "Rusty."  He built a fantastic site and software and then, after a temper tantrum,  intentionally sacrificed the community and disrespected the people.  

As far as I'm concerned, without some sort of update, Rusty has kamikaze'd K5.  The only thing worth coming back for is the ASCII art guy.  So until we hear from Rusty himself, I'm outta here.  

Welcome to irrelevance, Rusty.  

erm,, (none / 1) (#130)
by horny smurf on Fri May 28, 2004 at 03:30:43 PM EST

if you're outta here, how will you know if (when) we hear from rusty?

[ Parent ]
Irrelevance? Hardly (none / 2) (#131)
by jbuck on Fri May 28, 2004 at 03:36:56 PM EST

Rusty's been working with Kos on the highly successful DailyKos, which runs Scoop and is one of the most popular sites in the blogosphere; it certainly gets more visits than this site does.

K5 is not Rusty's only child.

[ Parent ]

Since rmg linked to K5 replacements... (2.75 / 4) (#129)
by Aaron Aaronnson on Fri May 28, 2004 at 01:54:16 PM EST

...I'm going to now link to a mini Metafilter replacement. The number of active users can be counted on one hand, but I kinda prefer it this way. Besides, on good days there's a good half-dozen links.

Or... (none / 2) (#134)
by flippy on Fri May 28, 2004 at 05:23:58 PM EST

You could just start your own site and do whatever you want.  Not trying to be a jack-hole but no one is forcing you to browse and post here.

I think your ideas have merit and would be great, but the site owner (rusty? *shrug*) seems to have it the way he wants it.

Its not that I dont agree with some of your suggestions, but the machine isnt listening.  Perhaps you should ask to take over the site?  Maybe rusty is just tired of it?

I dunno.  


as i've been saying here and there... (3.00 / 4) (#136)
by kpaul on Fri May 28, 2004 at 07:31:34 PM EST

it's just a flesh wound, i imagine. i mean, if there are any 'old timers' left here from the beginning, hasn't there been different cycles of user participation?

ups and downs? all around whacked out weekends?

i guess what i'm saying is that until i hear it straight from the commandante's mouth (monocle firmly in place) i won't worry too much about whether k5 will continue.

instead, i say enjoy her while she's in this mood!

part of the excitement of k5 is that it does change (new sections, new rules, new numbers, new words, new members...)

"k5: still better than the telly"

2014 Halloween Costumes

whine moan whatever (1.80 / 5) (#137)
by froseph on Fri May 28, 2004 at 09:03:53 PM EST

the failure of k5 is just more evidance of the failure of mankind and democracy. Because of the nature of the website, the stuff that is posted is dependant on the people and it's participants not on it's leader. If the site fails, it is the participants fault not some figurehead leader. The system worked in the beginning for about 1.5 years even with highish story thresholds because people voted on stories based how quality of discussion it generated, not based upon it's content matter. Articles of all subject matter were posed at a decent rate. Growth was the downfall of this site, not rusty.

But growth needn't kill kuro5hin (3.00 / 4) (#138)
by mdpye on Sat May 29, 2004 at 03:10:11 PM EST

You say that it is growth which has killed kuro5hin, but this needn't be the case. Growth pains show up in all communities, online or off, what marks the successful ones are effective mechanisms for dealing with growth. The mechanisms available at k5 are obviously under considerable stress, but with work they can be extended to cope.

Without the proper mechanisms (think government, justice system, and what they are supposed to be for in the real world), no community can successfully scale.

The mechanisms available online at present, such as moderation, are very primitive in comparison with those which would be used to manage a real world community of a similar size, but they are evolving.

Shirky writes an interesting essay which might be topical.

Social software platforms are very young as yet, records in numbers of members are being broken regularly, there is much to be learned, don't write them off just yet.


PS. I used to run a community based site on a much smaller scale, but we felt exactly the same problems as our membership grew. I was continually updating our forum software to incorporate new systems, and each new upgrade allowed us to reach a stable and positive environment at a new height of readership. New growth invariably required more advanced systems. Eventually I ran up against a different issue of scale, hosting costs (this was when web hosting was pretty expensive for an individual) and without new resources the mob overran the forums, the site dwindled and died.

It left me with something of an insight into this situation from the top looking down. It looks rather different, and some things which seem obvoius to the readership have more impact than they imagine.

[ Parent ]
K5 Myth of the good Ol' Days (1.75 / 4) (#139)
by ambisinistral on Sat May 29, 2004 at 06:20:19 PM EST

When I first came to K5 it was a pack of effete intellectuals knobs circle jerking other over how brilliant they were. Now, actual debate occurs.

Intellectual debate without opposing viewpoints is worthless.

[ Parent ]
44k UID (none / 2) (#147)
by leviramsey on Sun Jun 06, 2004 at 04:11:44 PM EST

Which indicates to me that you first came here about a year ago, maybe?

[ Parent ]
K5 is dead (2.00 / 4) (#141)
by webchick on Sun May 30, 2004 at 02:15:09 PM EST

Rusty has given up on K5. Move on. He certainly has.

Now I'm whoring PageRank... (1.33 / 6) (#142)
by Aaron Aaronnson on Sun May 30, 2004 at 10:34:42 PM EST

...<a href="http://www.gnaa.us/">for the GNAA</a>!

Whoops, kinda screwed up there! (1.33 / 6) (#143)
by Aaron Aaronnson on Sun May 30, 2004 at 10:35:21 PM EST

...for the GNAA!

Why I only visit occasionally... (none / 3) (#146)
by slykens on Wed Jun 02, 2004 at 04:48:16 PM EST

I used to visit k5 on a regular basis, at least several times a week, and found many of the stories and items here interesting.

I particpated in some discussions but eventually found that any viewpoint that didn't tow the party line was shouted down, voted down, and otherwise belittled.

Yes, I am a conservative, but I certainly don't expect the world to agree with me. We're all different people and all have different experiences to shape and form our opinions. When I debate with a liberal I am happy to hear their point of view expressed in a clear and concise manner but don't expect to be called an idiot, jerk, baby-eater, or any other plethora of names simply because of my point of view.

The reason I left k5 is because it appeared to me to have turned into democraticundergound.com or whatever that website is.

Another frustration was people using their scoring ability to score down posts with an opposing point of view no matter how well written. Slashdot attempts to solve this problem using meta-moderation. Getting people blinded by political views to respect their opposition is tough to do, it is human nature to belittle and marginalize one's opponent.

To summarize in a simple manner, I quit visiting k5 more than once a month when I realized that it really wasn't an open discussion anymore, rather from my point of view it had become a polical left club that those of us who were from the right were not welcome to.

It's a shame rusty left... (none / 0) (#149)
by localman on Tue Jul 06, 2004 at 08:47:53 PM EST

but I don't blame him.  Anyone who has ever done a public service like this has undoubtedly felt the burn when "the tragedy of the commons" bears down.  I know I have.  There's always just enough idiots to destroy any public good.

The more trust involved in a system like this, the more powerful, useful, and vulnerable it comes.

The funniest part is how many people blame Rusty for the actions of others.  It's like blaming an artist for not making a public sculpture vandal-proof.


A Five Point Plan for K5 | 149 comments (128 topical, 21 editorial, 0 hidden)
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