Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
Why Kuro5hin's Editors Need to Grow a Testicle

By MichaelCrawford in Meta
Wed May 11, 2005 at 04:49:04 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

Or What You Can Do to Keep K5 From Becoming the Next Adequacy

the ghost of rmg said regarding the response my comments have elicited in Earn High by Playing it Clean:

this is the reason that people who produce decent content left this site in droves. these people are targetted precisely because they take pride in what they do -- which is to say, they do a good job at it. these are the people who are vulnerable to these sorts of tactics because people with self-respect, i.e. people who care about what they do and try to do a good job, are not willing to put up with that kind of crap and have better things to do.

In my diary frijolito asked:

I sometimes wonder why you continue to contribute to this site, being it so filled with hateful idiots. It reminds me of something someone said at Husi while discussing whether to write something up to let K5ers know about enterfornone's suicide: "be sure to harden your heart first".

Before you click the link to read my response, I want you to consider how many of my stories have made front page, and how much blood, sweat and tears I must have put into some of them to have written them as well as I did.


On Gratitude

the ghost of rmg continued:
these people are simultaneously most vulnerable and most important to defend, yet you, rusty and the editors, spectacularly fail to do so. in fact, you even have cute philosophical arguments to save yourselves from criticism for what is really just lazy stupidity.

the first time someone posts something like what you see in this article, you know what that person is about and you know they have no place amongst decent people. there is no second chance. there is no possibility that it was a mistake. it is a window into the soul. you know, absolutely know, what you can expect from that person from that point on.

yet you do nothing. absolutely nothing.

it is not crapflooders or trolls or whatever else that has emptied this site of its best contributors from past years -- it is your complete indifference to the people who are engaged in making your site better. you view them as cogs in a machine that will replace themselves with time and you feel no obligation to them at all, despite what profits you make on their backs.

you have the power to stop this -- and make no mistake, no one else here does. round up a cadre of editors, say nine or ten, and tell them to eliminate this kind of garbage. send a message to all your users that this is not what kuro5hin is about, that you really are about "freedom and not freeDUMB" as your faq so inanely claims.

In my diary, I gave several reason in my response to frijolito. The one relevant to the discussion at hand is as follows:

Finally, I want to give back to K5 because K5 has given so much to me. Both Living with Schizoaffective Disorder and Links to Tens of Thousands of Legal Downloads were first published here, and made front page - all three parts of LwSD made front page. I don't think that the copies I have on my own website would be nearly as well-known as they are if I hadn't published them here first.

It's commonly said that the solution to hate speech is not censorship, but more speech. I think the solution to the troll problem is never going to be zeroing their comments or anonymizing their accounts, but attracting more and better users to the site. I miss the K5 of old, before the trolls started running the place, and I'm happy to do everything in my power to set things right by publishing quality content here.

I want you to think about what I just said the next time you criticize me for promoting my own writing here at K5.

Quality Content That I've Published at Kuro5hin

If you don't believe me that I work hard to contribute to our community, here are all the stories I've ever published here.

I'm not whoring a single link. All these URLs are at Kuro5hin.org:

Not all of them made front page, but many did. All three parts of LwSD as well as my music downloading article made front page in just a few hours.

LwSD is the longest story ever published here: it is fifty pages in hardcopy, and took ten days to write. I'm pretty sure my music downloading article is the second longest, and took me over a month. I had to work hard to keep it short enough that it wasn't trunctated by Scoop's 64k story submission limit. It just barely fit.

Several of my stories, including the one on the front page, have Creative Commons licenses. I have also written several others published elsewhere that have the GNU Free Documentation License. One of them is Google's top hit for pointers to member functions. I've republished several of these on my own site, but as I emphasized in The Way of the White Hat SEO Ninja, any of my articles that have ever been copylefted, still are.

Then there is also my diary, whose entries often get as much tender loving care from me as many stories published on this site.

And finally, there are my comments. It should be readily apparent from looking through my comment history that I take them seriously, often laboring over a single one for as long as an hour, revising and editing meticulously. Here's a notable example. There are more others than I can even remember.

Now, I'm the first to admit that you have every reason to find me annoying. But know that I work very, very hard to do right by the Kuro5hin community. That's why I find it hard to understand why so many Kurons make it so clear that they prefer the company of those who actively seek to destroy what we have all worked so hard to achieve.

Crawford Pays the Bills Around Here

The following is not the attempt at blackmail that it appears to be. Instead, I want you to understand how I got kicked in the teeth for trying to help our community.

When I kicked off my ad campaign for GoingWare's Bag of Programming Tricks, I said in my press release:

Crawford, an avid writer whose essays have been featured on the front page of the community website Kuro5hin, says he believes in doing well by doing good: "My entire advertising budget for the month of March will be spent on text ads at Kuro5hin. I want to give back to the community that has given me so much." Crawford added that much more would ultimately be spent at Kuro5hin if his marketing campaign proved effective.

I meant what I said. Because of my cash flow, I have not yet spent as much as I intended on my K5 ads, but all of my advertising budget has been spent at K5 so far. Let me check my QuickBooks, gimme a sec... QuickBooks says I've spent $259 on K5 ads so far this year. (It's not a round number because Rusty gives us a small discount if we place more than one ad on a given day).

Now, you and I both know that my press release wasn't meant for the actual press. Instead, I spent an entire day writing and revising it, because I had the idea it might actually make front page if I did a good enough job. That would be quite a coup, don't you think? It sure would have made my ad budget go a lot farther.

pHatidic agreed. He said:

Believe it or not I will actually vote this up, but only because of it's subtle cleverness and the fact that it is extremely well written.

But others didn't. no funny stuff called me "a degenerate" and BadDoggie said:

Everything I've said about you and your blatant fucking whoring was true and you've laid it out for all to see. I'm feeling only a little bit stupid for not realising it wasn't just a load of egotistical tripe but that you were cross-linking everything to defraud Google. Then again, I never clicked on any of your damned links.

The defeat of my press release was impressive: moved to vote as I slept, it was resoundedly rejected 23 to 3. Still, I felt encouraged that of the three +1 votes, two of them were front page.

Ever since I announced my ad campaign I have been scrupulously careful not to whore any links. I kept my links to my diary, my sig and my ads, all of them well-established as acceptable places to promote oneself. I only linked my articles in actual comments a few times. Whenever I did, it was in direct response to a comment that the linked article addressed in a compelling way, and I always took care to acknowledge that I was whoring my link. I hope you can forgive me.

Still, complaints against me mounted. pwhysall took to zeroing every comment I posted anywhere, and with no explanation. At first I tolerated him, as I tolerate most trolls here at K5, but when I found out he was an editor, I complained to Rusty that pwhysall was abusing the moderation system. Rusty must have said something to him, because pwhysall's abuse mostly stopped. He's only zeroed a few of my comments since.

I felt I had to act when I got an email from one of the editors informing me that they had all been getting complaints about me. I appealed to Rusty, pointing out what I said above, about how I had actually been quite careful not to whore even a single link.

I told Bonita one night that I felt I had a real reason to fear I might get anonymized. Contemplate how I might have felt that night. Bonita understood completely.

Rusty copied me on a message broadcast to all the editors. I don't have it online, but he told them all that my activities met with his approval, and that was to be the end of it.

I meant what I said in my press release, about how I planned to drop my entire month's AdSense check into advertising my articles. Basically my strategy is to invest all the money I make from my site back into it, so that one day it will be a really sustainable business, and a better way for Bonita and I to get by than what I do now.

I've been a software consultant for seven years. It has never been anything but a miserable way to live.

I didn't really mean it when I said "I want to crush Joel Spolsky like a bug". I'm sure he's a really nice guy. I just want to get the same kind of traffic that he does now.

I couldn't say in my press release how much I was making from AdSense, but the AdSense Terms and Conditions were have been revised so that I can - see section 7.

I'm not reporting my AdSense earnings to brag or make any of you feel bad. It's to help you understand what an opportunity my website's success presents to K5. I want you to take a real close look at just how many ads are currently active at K5, and to think about the fact that a ten dollar ad placement for ten thousand impressions takes about a week to expire.

I want you to think real hard about just how much money Rusty is really earning from the advertising that is placed by K5 members, and that even the paltry sum of money I've been able to invest so far has tied me with actualtools as K5's top advertising client.

I want you to think about the fact that Rusty has had to take work as a carpenter the next time you give him crap for not working on Scoop.

For Christ's sake, the man has an infant to feed!

If it were up to me, I'd tell Rusty to go ahead and spend all that money he raised for the CMF to provide for his wife and child.

Since joining AdSense September first, I've earned two to three thousand dollars each month. Discovering the Heat Map in Google's AdSense Optimization Tips helped tremendously. Traffic is skyrocketing lately, partly because my previous efforts are now paying off in search engine referrals, and because I took the entire week off work to write new content for my site, as well as roll out Bonita's new web design to more of my articles. I might well make four grand this month.

Now, I want to make the following crystal clear:

I have only spent as little as I have so far because of the lingering effect of losing a contract a couple of months ago, and because I just paid to send Bonita on a trip to Spain with her classmates from art school. I expect to break even in May. I have two good contracts for clients who are both happy to pay me promptly. I expect to spend my entire AdSense check for June on advertising.

You thought I was already advertising heavily. No, I haven't been, not yet. All the advertisements I've placed so far have not yet been intended to boost traffic in any real way. Instead, all the ads you've seen so far have just been tests, to help me shape and refine my message so that my ads make the most impact when I finally do roll out my campaign.

From my press release:

Returning to discussion of his marketing strategy, Crawford emphasized that the six ads placed on the first day of his campaign were only published for testing purposes. "If you're going to advertise in such a way as to make a difference to your business, you have to be prepared to spend some money. There is no way to know how to reach your audience without actually paying for some test marketing. You have to be very careful and scientific about your ad campaign. If you're not, you won't get the results you hope for, and you might go broke."

...

Crawford explained that failure to test one's marketing message is a recipe for economic suicide: "Back when Apple was struggling to stay in business, with round after round of layoffs, one reason they did such a poor job of selling their products is that they failed to test. Dave told me that they would roll out direct mail campaigns with millions of pieces, at a cost of millions of dollars in postage, printing and mailing list rental, without a single test of their offer, their message, or mailing list response."

I'm certain the real reason for the dot-com crash wasn't so much the "irrational exuberance" among investors that Alan Greenspan so ominously warned us all about, but a failure by the dot-coms to test their web advertising.

I don't think I can spend as much as I'd like to here, because I don't think K5 gets enough pageviews to use up a whole AdSense check in a month. Rusty is welcome to prove me wrong.

What would it mean for our community here at Kuro5hin, if Rusty were able to make enough money from K5 that he could quit consulting for DailyKos, and stop swinging a hammer just to feed and shelter those he loves?

What would it mean to Kuro5hin, if Rusty were able to devote all his time to running it, and hacking Scoop?

What would it mean to Rusty, if he could make Kuro5hin a full-time job, rather than having to abandon it just to get by, while the brainchild he labored so hard to concieve, to bring to life and to grow, just whithers and dies?

I want you to think about that, the next time you give Rusty crap for not implementing comment search.

And the next time you contemplate complaining that I whore links or drone on endlessly about my mental illness, I want you to think about this:

What it would mean to you, Kuro5hin and Rusty if I took my toys and went home?

Because you know, after spending several days reading all the crap people have given me in my own FRONT PAGE article, I'm thinking pretty seriously about doing just that.

Now, I know you're all thinking: "Crawford's just trying to buy our love", but no, that's not it at all. In part I've been trying to win support among K5's hard-headed realists, and in part I've been trying to win support among the many Kurons who just don't like my writing - and there are plenty of them.

But my main point is that I'm trying to help you understand what the consequences of trying to help out around here really are. I have done my damnedest to make a positive contribution and in return have gotten nothing but abuse.

I want to explain to you why Kuro5hin's editors need to really do something about the troll problem here - a problem that's even found among K5's editors.

You see, in threatening to abandon Kuro5hin, I'm not one of those coal mine canaries, fainting at the first whiff of gas:

I'm one of the few remaining holdouts, dug into a trench, defending himself with a gatling gun, and unwilling to give up until he's shot to pieces.

That canary, you see, is already dead. He was barbecued months ago. He wasn't very filling, but the trolls had him for a light supper.

I want you to think about it.

Now, let me explain to you why you really should be worried about folks like me leaving our community:

We Contribute Valuable Content
I am dismayed by the response I received in Earn High by Playing it Clean, but not ready to give up yet.

Not quite, but close to it:

I intended to revise The Way of the White Hat SEO Ninja so that if I submitted it, it might have some hope of making front page. Now I'm not so sure I want to, at least not yet, because all the trolls who gave me such crap in my story would bring it down in flames in the queue.

I might just keep my revision for my own website. You'll know if I do, because you'll see my text ad for it.

What that would mean to the kuro5hin community?

I bet if I put AdSense on it, you'd see ads for psychiatric medications like the Risperdal I take. All the crazy folk who visit my site looking for help would click them like there was no tomorrow and I could retire to the Caribbean.

I spent EIGHT HOURS writing that diary, editing it meticulously because I felt it was the most important thing I had written since Living with Schizoaffective Disorder. I'm prepared to spend as much time getting it ready for the queue. Imagine how much traffic it might bring, and how many new k5 members, when article with a title like that one has shows up in RSS feeds all over the Internet.

Or...

I could publish it on my own site, and all the money K5 makes from my text ad might buy a box of diapers for Rusty's kid.

I haven't decided yet. I'm not going to anytime soon.

I'm not threatening to leave if you don't vote for it. I've never asked for special treatment in the queue, and I'm not now, not for that story nor for this one. I'd be sad if it got dumped, but I wouldn't give up, I'd keep writing for K5.

No, what I'm saying is that if I decide I'm not even going to submit The Way of the White Hat SEO Ninja, well, that will be the last you ever see of me except for the occasional text ad.

Afterword: On Gratitude
I wasn't going to tell you this, because I figured you would complain I was whoring again. But the following will help me drive my point home:

When Earn High by Playing it Clean made front page, I submitted a support ticket with AdSense support in which I said:

You might enjoy my article "Earn High by Playing it Clean: Google AdSense Tips and Tricks that aren't what you expect", that was featured this morning on the front page of the community website Kuro5hin, http://www.kuro5hin.org/

...

Kuro5hin's homepage is PageRank 7. Most front page articles get 20,000 pageviews during the week or so they are on the front page, and often end up ranking in the top ten for relevant keywords because Kuro5hin's whole website has high pagerank.

My article is about how I'm able to earn half my income from AdSense by operating a legitimate, well-designed, spam and popup-free content website (http://www.goingware.com/tips/).

If you work for AdSense support, my ticket is #25782826.

Here is their response:

Thank you very much for your email. We appreciate your words as we always love hearing how AdSense has positively impacted the businesses, lives, and careers of our publishers. Your email is a testimony to the strength of our advertising and publishing programs.

I've forwarded your email on to the rest of our team. Again, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with us. And please never hesitate to let us know how we can improve Google AdSense for you.

Sincerely, Mike
The Google AdSense Team

Take a minute to consider, how many people work at AdSense support? Since September, I have filed ten support tickets, and I am a pretty small-time operator. How many AdSense publishers do you think there might be in the entire world? How many of AdSense's support staff might have read my article here at Kuro5hin?

How many of AdSense's support staff have friends that they might have sent my article's link to, or who might link to my article here from their own sites? Consider the possibility that AdSense support might even email the link to some AdSense publishers, or maybe, just maybe, link it from the AdSense website.

Mike's a great guy, don't you think?

Consider this: I posted that story's last comment about six hours ago. I've been reloading the page all night long to see if anybody responded to my response to the ghost of rmg's comment, the one with which I started this story.

My comment turned out to be the first draft of this story, the one you're looking at right now.

It's been six hours now, and not one single comment has been posted, not in response to my comments or to anyone else's.

It has been that way since the article made front page at a quarter to four Thursday morning. You know me, I've been sitting at my desk all week long reloading the page waiting for someone to post anything at all so I can respond.

Sometimes a half a day would go by without a single comment being posted anywhere in the article. This despite the fact that the article is at the very top of the front page, and has been since Thursday morning, and links to the article have been posted in RSS feeds all over the world as well.

Consider the fact that my story is still at the very top of the front page, even though it posted Thursday morning, and it's early Monday morning now.

Could it be that all the comments are mine not because I'm such an egomaniac as to fill my story with my own comments, but because no one is posting to K5 anymore?

And could it be that my story is still at the very top of the front page is because no one is contributing valuable content anymore?

Now I'll finally get to my point:

I knew from past experience with AdSense support that sending them my article might result in my mail being copied to the whole AdSense team, maybe even to everyone who works at Google.

I spent a lot of time, a lot of time, thinking about that, thinking about it very carefully. Thinking about how many more people would read my article if that happened.

And I thought about what it might mean to the success of my new business if I sent them a link to the original of the article on my own website.

Yes, I thought about that long and hard.

And do you know why I sent them the link to K5's copy instead? Here's why:

Because I wanted to give back to the community that has given me so much.

I want you to think about that, before you click the "Move to Vote" button, like you did with my press release. And I want you to consider that I have spent six hours working on this essay. I haven't simply written a lot of text but revised and edited it meticulously throughout the night. I bet I've hit the Preview button a hundred times.

How many K5 writers are willing to work so hard on nearly everything they submit to the queue?

The last thing I'll say is that you can find the reason I have always used the same email signature as I give below for the last twenty years in my diary.

Thank You For Your Attention.

Michael D. Crawford
crawford@goingware.com

Tilting at Windmills for a Better Tomorrow.

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Poll
Will You Do What it Takes to Keep Quality Content Appearing at Kuro5hin?
o No, I think I'll give Mike some more crap for whoring his links. 51%
o I will not rest until the trolls are driven from our site. 48%

Votes: 56
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Scoop
o Kuro5hin
o Google
o Adequacy
o said
o the response
o my comments
o Earn High by Playing it Clean
o my diary
o asked
o my response
o Musings on Good C++ Style
o my old username
o Let's Put SCO Behind Bars
o ARM Assembly Code Optimization?
o If Indie Musicians Wanted Their Music Heard...
o Reflection s on Independence Day
o Is This the America I Love?
o The Great K5 Limerick Contest
o Canada, the Polite Country
o Links to Tens of Thousands of Legal Music Downloads
o Part I
o Part II
o Part III
o How Overseas US Citizens Can Register to Vote
o The Way of the White Hat SEO Ninja
o my diary [2]
o my comments [2]
o a notable example
o Crawford Pays the Bills Around Here
o ad campaign
o press release
o said [2]
o called me
o said [3]
o announced
o pwhysall
o Joel Spolsky
o traffic
o AdSense Terms and Conditions
o currently active
o me
o actualtool s
o AdSense Optimization Tips
o skyrocketi ng
o I took the entire week off work
o Bonita's new web design
o art school
o advertisin g heavily
o editors
o about
o folks
o like
o me [2]
o leaving
o Risperdal
o Living
o Schizoaffe ctive
o Disorder
o http://www .kuro5hin.org/
o my response [2]
o Because I wanted to give back to the community that has given me so much.
o How many K5 writers are willing to work so hard on nearly everything they submit to the queue?
o crawford@g oingware.com
o Also by MichaelCrawford


Display: Sort:
Why Kuro5hin's Editors Need to Grow a Testicle | 357 comments (247 topical, 110 editorial, 0 hidden)
If you want to critique my diary... (1.50 / 2) (#1)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:11:11 AM EST

One way you can be genuinely helpful to me would be to post editorial comments to help me revise my diary so it might make front page here at K5. Please put them in the diary itself:

Of course, the link in the intro, the one that's a GoogleBomb, will be set to point to my article here at K5 instead of the one at my website as it does now.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


OMFG BUFFER OVERFLOW ATTACK!!! (2.00 / 13) (#2)
by toulouse on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:13:42 AM EST

BAN THIS MOTHER AND BLOCK HIS IP NOW!


--
'My god...it's full of blogs.' - ktakki
--


But I didn't exceed Scoop's anti-DOS posting limit (none / 0) (#4)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:26:41 AM EST

I know from experience that it's 64k, and this article isn't nearly that long.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Good article! (1.75 / 4) (#3)
by GreyGhost on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:16:52 AM EST



I'm speechless. (2.69 / 13) (#5)
by Sigismund of Luxemburg on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:41:35 AM EST

You just spent six fucking hours biting on a tired adequoid copycat's post.

You just gave him the only screaming orgasm he will ever achieve.
ANONYMISED

Holy shit. (2.77 / 9) (#7)
by Sigismund of Luxemburg on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:50:21 AM EST

After reading the rest of the damn thing, it pretty much amounts to a temper tantrum. Best post evar!

You know k5 owes you exactly nothing, right? No matter how much advertising money you spend here, no matter how many dreary diaries you post, no matter how many time you say the word "Bonita" per day, there is still absolutely no obligation for the regular posters here to not zero your every comment and kill your stories. If you don't like it, you go somewhere else.
ANONYMISED
[ Parent ]

Hot damn. (2.75 / 8) (#8)
by Sigismund of Luxemburg on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:56:51 AM EST

It just keeps getting better!

You claim there are no comments on your article because nobody cares enough to contribute? What should they contribute? It's an article about how you make money by advertising your site. Believe it or not, most of the people on the internet are not you. They just don't care. Write an interesting article, with something to discuss (or even a pile of meta-flamebait cum temper tantrum) and we'll see what kind of comment action it gets.
ANONYMISED
[ Parent ]

You know you're just talking to yourself, right? (2.50 / 2) (#59)
by TheGreenLantern on Mon May 09, 2005 at 09:39:25 AM EST



It hurts when I pee.
[ Parent ]
At least that way (2.66 / 6) (#70)
by Why is the password autogenerated on Mon May 09, 2005 at 11:33:01 AM EST

you've got a chance at having an intelligent conversation around here.

[ Parent ]
*Rimshot* (none / 0) (#75)
by TheGreenLantern on Mon May 09, 2005 at 11:44:59 AM EST

I tipped my waitress, will you be here all the week?

It hurts when I pee.
[ Parent ]
Here's the REAL reason I keep posting at K5: (2.00 / 6) (#9)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:58:49 AM EST

Maybe it's because I'm crazy.

One would have to be, to persist in the face of the kind of crap I get from a lot of kurons.

Well, let me explain something to you. Take it as a word of friendly advice:

If you don't heed my message above, the only people that will be left to Contribute Quality Content will be the insane.

You don't really want that to happen, now do you?


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


Vlad? (1.00 / 6) (#10)
by Sigismund of Luxemburg on Mon May 09, 2005 at 06:06:38 AM EST


ANONYMISED
[ Parent ]
Is this blackmail? (2.83 / 12) (#12)
by StephenThompson on Mon May 09, 2005 at 06:12:32 AM EST

Is this some sort of blackmail attempt? Because thats how I read it; you bought a bunch of ads and promise more if you get special treatment from the editors. But,the readers of this site ARE the editors. The handful of people who have special editorial power are tasked to make sure the system is not subverted by spammers or crapflooders or the like; keeping the conversation on topic and insightful is the reader/moderator's jobs, not theirs. Now, your posts are very close to the line on flooding, link spamming and link whoring, and so it is yourself that may need special censorship, not the odd rude remark that doesn't happen to reflect well on you. When it comes to how much time you spent on an article and how that reflects on your income, this is none of our business. How hard you work is irrelevant. If you post something interesting, it may get voted up. That it took 6 minutes or 6 hours to write makes no nevermind. K5 owes you nothing. If anything, you owe K5 for giving you a forum to express yourself and even provide valuable linkage to your site.

No, it's NOT blackmail, really it's not. (2.60 / 5) (#13)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 09, 2005 at 06:20:40 AM EST

Read the part where I wrote about canaries.

I worked so hard to explain why most of the writers who ever used to submit front page stories have already left.

It's about how the only reason I'm still here at all is because I feel so strongly about doing what's right. But even I have my limits. Think about how mcgrew must feel. Do you really want him to give up to? He's published way more front page stories here than I have.

I'm not asking the editors to treat me special. Not in the least.

I'm asking them to extend such effort to everyone who contributes quality content, so that the few who are left don't give up as I'm threatening to do, and so that any new people who happen to visit the site decide it might really be worth their while to join, and work hard enough on their own articles that we might actually have a new front page story more than once a week.

It's really not about me at all. I'm just discussing my own experience as an example.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Its OK that they left (3.00 / 7) (#16)
by StephenThompson on Mon May 09, 2005 at 06:32:40 AM EST

I personally don't WANT regulars to manically post stories to K5.  People who spend too much time writing and not enough time living are not very interesting, and neither is their writing.

Most people are only insightful about a handful of topics.  Most of what they say is just rehash and blabbering; if they blabber well enough to entertain for a few minutes, they might get my vote, but those articles are not what make me come to K5.  
Diversity in perspective is much more important to me than quantity of articles by an author.

[ Parent ]

They left, and everyone else did too (3.00 / 4) (#29)
by TRS-80 on Mon May 09, 2005 at 07:18:22 AM EST

While you have a point, what Michael's saying is that even the randoms who would post just one or two interesting stories have left.

[ Parent ]
That just it, and the trolls are driving away... (3.00 / 3) (#41)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 09, 2005 at 07:48:20 AM EST

... any anonymous passersby that we might have once had some hope of joining the site.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

If their writing isn't interesting (2.50 / 2) (#33)
by spasticfraggle on Mon May 09, 2005 at 07:24:00 AM EST

Surely it wouldn't be voted up anyway?

--
I'm the straw that broke the camel's back!
[ Parent ]
Dude. (2.66 / 15) (#15)
by kitten on Mon May 09, 2005 at 06:28:53 AM EST

Who cares what rmg has to say? He's not so much a has-been as a never-was; a Johnny-come-lately to the troll train who, after his "mousie wheel" schtick earned him a ban, returned with one and only one modus operandus, that of the dripping faux-sincere syncophant, a tired routine that grates like Johnny One-Note playing the kazoo. You've seen one rmg comment, you've seen 'em all.

rmg griping about crapflooding and annoying twits that populate the site is like Stalin griping that dictators are just ruining everything, except that Stalin actually got shit done, which is more than will ever be said about rmg.

Your stories sometimes get voted up; isn't that enough validation for the fact that your contributions around here are appreciated? Don't worry about what a couple of yapping twits have to say. No one else does.
mirrorshades radio - darkwave, synthpop, industrial, futurepop.
Even if his post was a troll.. (3.00 / 4) (#20)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 09, 2005 at 06:47:33 AM EST

... I am in absolute agreement with what he said, even if he didn't mean a word of it.

All the better that he moved me to finally act upon what I've been contemplating for months now.

If he's a troll, then maybe we need more trolls.

I'm pretty sure frijolito was sincere in what he said, and I was sincere in my original reply to his comment, and in what I said here last night.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Attention Mike (1.28 / 7) (#18)
by evolution of mankind on Mon May 09, 2005 at 06:38:33 AM EST

Leave now. We do not negotiate with BeOS fanboys.
----
The ultimate secret of the universe: Cracky-chan.
I'm still in the BeOS webring (none / 0) (#22)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 09, 2005 at 06:50:53 AM EST

Always have been, always will be: it brings significant traffic to my site. Quality traffic, from the kind of people who understand what it means to write a quality operating system.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Here's why you got zeroes from me. (2.48 / 37) (#35)
by pwhysall on Mon May 09, 2005 at 07:39:30 AM EST

I zeroed those comments of yours that I felt were only present to provide a vehicle for the links in your sig.

My zero isn't special; it carries no more weight than anyone else's. I'm entitled to my opinion, and here it is: some of your comments only exist to provide a place for your sig to appear.

I zero these comments, because that's my right.

I think what is most irksome about this kind of story is the pervading sense of entitlement that oozes from every paragraph. You buy a lot of ads, therefore your stories deserve to be on the front page. You spend a long time writing your stories, therefore the K5 readers owe it to you to meticulously read them and make detailed editing suggestions, so that we can get your stories where they deserve to be: The Front Page.

No.

The moment a story goes to FP just because the author bought a lot of ads is the day the K5 experiment fails. I know that some authors (localroger, I'm looking at you) have had material that is, frankly, subpar posted to the front page because of the cachet of the name, but I'm an idealist; I like to think that every story is judged on its merits, and not on whether the author's obsession is writing, or whether they took a month to write it, or whether their partner agrees.

Personally, I don't care in the least whether a story took six seconds or six months to write, and I certainly don't care what an author's partner thinks about anything.

This particular story is pure ego-massage, and I will be voting -1 because of this; the complaints of tedium and excessive length are consequent to this.
--
Peter
K5 Editors
I'm going to wager that the story keeps getting dumped because it is a steaming pile of badly formatted fool-meme.
CheeseBurgerBrown

On the topical/editorial dissonance. (none / 1) (#36)
by pwhysall on Mon May 09, 2005 at 07:40:33 AM EST

Parent comment is both, really; Topitorial, if you will.
--
Peter
K5 Editors
I'm going to wager that the story keeps getting dumped because it is a steaming pile of badly formatted fool-meme.
CheeseBurgerBrown
[ Parent ]
That's Absolutely Not True (2.00 / 5) (#37)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 09, 2005 at 07:42:40 AM EST

You wrote:

some of your comments only exist to provide a place for your sig to appear.

No, none of them do. Not a single one.

I take my writing seriously, and work hard to revise even my most trivial comment.

The fact that I knew you felt that way is why I complained to Rusty that you were abusing the moderation system.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

It's my opinion. (2.83 / 12) (#38)
by pwhysall on Mon May 09, 2005 at 07:45:06 AM EST

Whether you feel outrage about that or not is not my concern.

That's honestly what I think.

You are free to disagree with my assessment of your posting activities, of course.

I am not abusing my moderation abilities by rating as zero those comments of yours which I believe to exist solely to be placeholders for your signature.
--
Peter
K5 Editors
I'm going to wager that the story keeps getting dumped because it is a steaming pile of badly formatted fool-meme.
CheeseBurgerBrown
[ Parent ]

You're deluded (2.00 / 7) (#40)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 09, 2005 at 07:46:39 AM EST

And for the life of me I cannot fathom why rusty continues to let you be an editor.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

What can I say? (2.55 / 9) (#43)
by pwhysall on Mon May 09, 2005 at 08:11:28 AM EST

Should I change my opinion of you, just because you protest long and loud?

You have written some good stories.

When you keep it technical, you're an engaging and interesting writer who clearly has a deep knowledge of his field.

Shrug. I'm obviously in the Evil Nazi Editor category as far as you're concerned, so there's probably nothing I can say that will possibly alter your position.
--
Peter
K5 Editors
I'm going to wager that the story keeps getting dumped because it is a steaming pile of badly formatted fool-meme.
CheeseBurgerBrown
[ Parent ]

Rate and let rate... (3.00 / 9) (#77)
by nkyad on Mon May 09, 2005 at 11:54:47 AM EST

It is not like he has supernatural rating powers. If he (or anyone else) as a user feels you deserve a zero for link-whoring, you will get the zero. What difference does it make if he is an admin or not?

Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run


[ Parent ]
Prove it, dude. (none / 0) (#186)
by Russell Dovey on Tue May 10, 2005 at 12:44:53 PM EST

Take the link out of your sig for a week. Someone can statistically analyse the number of posts you make in that week compared to when it's back in, and we will know the (hugely error-barred) truth.

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

Why This Story Deserves To Make Front Page: (1.75 / 4) (#39)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 09, 2005 at 07:45:41 AM EST

It's the very best effort I have been able to make to keep the train wreck Kuro5hin has already become from reaching its inevitable conclusion.

Even if you don't feel anything I've said will make a difference, consider what discussion might be generated if my concerns were addressed as seriously as I strove by writing this to get them to be.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Look, take 2 (2.60 / 5) (#51)
by zorba77 on Mon May 09, 2005 at 09:08:28 AM EST

Your use of links is annoying and this story is obviously an attempt at emotional blackmail. Great you buy ads, but you know what, that doesn't make you the whole stinking community.

Like I toward Mcgrew, the nature of the queue, genius, is that if the story sucks, down it goes.

Suck it up.
Return the West Coast to the Tribes of sasquatch!
[ Parent ]

Gee (2.83 / 12) (#46)
by localroger on Mon May 09, 2005 at 08:50:47 AM EST

(localroger, I'm looking at you)

You know, I feel compelled to comment at being singled out like this, but I am completely at a loss as to what to say.

It is an occupational hazard of running a general interest site that you are going to run across stuff you don't like but that other people do. If I have learned one thing from the years I have spent here it's that you can write something that person A thinks is absolutely the most important work since the Vedas, while person B will think the exact same thing is a steaming pile of crap that should have been deleted before it escaped from the word processor.

If we are going to complain that others are getting special treatment, can we also acknowledge that a zero from editor and founding member pwhysall is not exactly the same as a zero from the_dried_up_husk_of_rmg or even for that matter localroger? You are widely regarded (and seem to regard yourself) as one of the original guardians of the Great K5 Experiment.

I would submit that if you want the experiment to succeed, pissing off the content creators may not be the best way to go about it.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

I didn't like one of your fiction stories. (1.50 / 4) (#52)
by pwhysall on Mon May 09, 2005 at 09:08:35 AM EST

Rite Of Passage.

I mean, I REALLY didn't like it (mainly because I thought it was being rude for being rude's sake), and I thought it rode the coat tails of the Prime Intellect sequence (which I also didn't like, but didn't think was crap, either; just not my cup of tea) and the other Passages stories.

Whatever else you write here, Casino Odyssey will, in my eyes, remain the best thing this site has ever produced.

And you wrote it.

The thing about the road trip in the South was pretty much flawless, too.

So don't get too hissy when a minor admin expresses an opinion about some of your more subjective work. Just a little hissy will do :-)
--
Peter
K5 Editors
I'm going to wager that the story keeps getting dumped because it is a steaming pile of badly formatted fool-meme.
CheeseBurgerBrown
[ Parent ]

He's a founder? (2.14 / 7) (#61)
by Smothie on Mon May 09, 2005 at 10:03:22 AM EST

Since when? He's not Rusty, he's not Inoshiro, he's not the other guy who went to work at one of the national laboratories, so, who the fuck is he? He's an editor with an attitude. He's a guy who thinks his shit doesn't stink, who thinks it's ok to sit in judgement over the rest of us, while he contributes more to the problem than the solution.

Why Rusty hasn't yanked his superuser status is TOTALLY beyond me... Except that I know Rusty fundamentally doesn't understand the troll 'problem' and actually thinks Peter is part of the solution to it. Until Rustoid wakes up and smells the coffee, we'll still be stuck with this idiot, as the good content runs away, and the crap Peter squeezes in his fist is all that's left.

--

Please visit my scoop site, Guppylog - For help with all livebearing fish.
[ Parent ]

Compared to me (none / 1) (#84)
by localroger on Mon May 09, 2005 at 12:48:44 PM EST

pwhysall: uid 443

localroger: uid 14643

While Peter may not be one of the people who put the original spark plugs in the Scoop engine, he has been here since very early on. Especially compared to people like myself who only emigrated here from Slashdot once K5 was established. And he does have superuser privileges, and has had them since long before I got here. So you may quibble at the word, but it's close enough to "founding member" for me.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

Okay... (1.25 / 4) (#94)
by Smothie on Mon May 09, 2005 at 02:31:03 PM EST

Well, my original UID was much higher than his, but a lot lower than yours - it doesn't make me feel in any way special. I think you contribute a LOT more to K5 than I do, for example. I'm much less impressed by numbers, and much more impressed by what a person contributes. Peter's contributions lately have been lacking.

--

Please visit my scoop site, Guppylog - For help with all livebearing fish.
[ Parent ]
Yah, I'm not a founder either (none / 0) (#266)
by Pelorat on Wed May 11, 2005 at 10:26:16 AM EST

Not by any stretch of the imagination. Just got in very early.

[ Parent ]
Indeed! (1.00 / 3) (#274)
by Smothie on Wed May 11, 2005 at 12:00:51 PM EST

Your UID is lower than Peter's - you should by rights have superuser status too, by that logic. :-)

--

Please visit my scoop site, Guppylog - For help with all livebearing fish.
[ Parent ]
HOLY SHIT! (none / 0) (#347)
by CodeWright on Sat May 14, 2005 at 03:23:22 PM EST

I am vindicated!

The passage of time has turned me into a Founder!

uid:406

--
A: Because it destroys the flow of conversation.
Q: Why is top posting dumb? --clover_kicker

[ Parent ]
encourage (3)'d best troll EVAR nt (none / 0) (#71)
by balsamic vinigga on Mon May 09, 2005 at 11:34:22 AM EST



---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
[ Parent ]
the FP name effect (none / 1) (#100)
by kpaul on Mon May 09, 2005 at 03:07:03 PM EST

i hear what you're saying. it's happened to some of my tripe as well. i used to get upset when you consistently voting my stuff down, but over time i realized it's a good thing. K5 needs to maintain high standards.

i do with you would point out more *why* you're voting my stuff down, tho. ;)


2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]

For The Record... (3.00 / 7) (#126)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Mon May 09, 2005 at 06:20:50 PM EST

Can I just say that kpaul, who has absorbed much grief in the queue in his day, was my personal inspiration for what currently forms the basis of my non-fiction article writing style.

Quality begets quality, via inspiration and shared innovations.


_____
I am from a small, unknown country in the north called Ca-na-da. We are a simple, grease-loving people who enjoy le weeke
[
Parent ]
awww... blush. ;) (3.00 / 2) (#319)
by kpaul on Thu May 12, 2005 at 02:17:11 AM EST

expect more shortly. not working for the 'man' at the moment, i want to do some serious writing.

don't panic, tho. it's mostly harmless... ;)


2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]

This is incredibly dull (2.57 / 7) (#45)
by stuaart on Mon May 09, 2005 at 08:24:09 AM EST

Please tighten up the whole story. It is far too long and fragmented to make any coherent point at all.

Linkwhore: [Hidden stories.] Baldrtainment: Corporate concubines and Baldrson: An Introspective


Some Thoughts (2.89 / 29) (#47)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Mon May 09, 2005 at 08:51:17 AM EST

To those of you calling "-1, Meta-Wankery" I'd like to remind you that there is no such thing as a meta story that isn't wanktastic. That's just the way the world works.

This is a perfect meta story: a highly visible K5 denizen feels too many people have shat in the pool, and is willing to go to considerable lengths to 1) analyze the problem, and 2) contribute positively to held minimize the problem.

This piece is is emotional. But this is meta. This is an area for stories by people who give a shit about K5, small and ever-shrinking as this group of masochists may be.

If you vote this down, you are saying in effect, "We don't need a meta section." And maybe we don't, but just make sure that's what you mean. If you mean, "This story annoys me so I'm dumping it" you haven't properly understood the mission of the meta section.


To those of you who would dis Mike for hooking himself into as many quadrants of the web as possible to help sell his written and consulting wares: fuck you.

Seriously. Just get fucked by an elephant.

Some of you folks just suck down original, good quality content as if it grew on trees. You criticize those of us who contribute for being twisted nerds for pouring too much effort into this these things, and then if we connect it in any way to our daily bread you call us whores and sell-outs.

(I've personally been called both in the last fortnight, for the crime of trying to promote my new storybook to my friends in the Scooposphere.)

"You sell-out!" they declare. "How dare you try to earn dimes from us? How dare you? The Internet wants to be free, dude -- free as in beer! Free as in pop music! Free as in ripped DVDs! Free as in America!"

Uh-huh.

Mike pours his heart and soul into the web. Whether you like his style or you don't, if you have any sense of netizen responsibility whatsoever you should be encouraging that level of dedication (especially when coupled with a guarantee to "play it clean").

Do you fucking want a web where all the output comes from underpaid writers hired by megacorporations?

If not, give a guy a break who's just trying to break even for all the time he pours in here. Like Mike. Like me. Christ, we're just trying to pay the mortgage, you know?

Support the arts or support the farts -- them's the only two choices.


_____
I am from a small, unknown country in the north called Ca-na-da. We are a simple, grease-loving people who enjoy le weeke
That's exactly why I'm voting this down (2.80 / 5) (#107)
by gumbo on Mon May 09, 2005 at 03:53:43 PM EST

The meta section should be abolished.

Rusty has made it perfectly clear that he's not interested in implementing suggestions that arise from conversations taking place on the site. People may or may not like the policy, but anyone who has been around for more than a couple of months understands that this is the policy. So meta stories are by definition masturbation because they amount to nothing more than the author pleasuring himself with his fantasies or hanging his authorial knob in the breeze hoping the other users will gratify him with a reassuring tug.

K5 is just one big live version of Civ3 for rusty, and Crawford's little whinge-fest is nothing more than a small city falling into temporary civil-disobedience. So we can either build him a temple or garrison some troops. I say we put down the seditious little bastard with force.

[ Parent ]

I'm redacting this comment (2.50 / 2) (#112)
by gumbo on Mon May 09, 2005 at 04:56:04 PM EST

It was submitted in a spirit of irreverent jest. But having read some of the other comments it seems that the author is getting genuinely stressed out.

Mike, I'm still voting -1 because I don't think meta-rants contribute much to the site, but don't take my sense of humour too seriously.

[ Parent ]

I feel much better now (3.00 / 2) (#137)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 09, 2005 at 09:45:25 PM EST

Eight hours of sleep did me wonders.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Searching for the correct response (2.00 / 3) (#119)
by toulouse on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:27:23 PM EST

That's a very good point.

Have you seen the great search engine called Google?

It's an invaluable resource to such dedicated writers as yourself.

As a valuable research tool, it can fetch the most diverse results from a customized network of state of the art servers. You can search for news, images and even through old usenet posts.

We provide a first-rate service and you can take advantage of our unsurpassed support network along with the best free email service in the world.

Consider Google a solution to your problem.

With regards to your specific point: Maybe you're right; maybe you're not. Pffffft ...


--
'My god...it's full of blogs.' - ktakki
--


[ Parent ]
Re: (none / 0) (#134)
by FattMattP on Mon May 09, 2005 at 09:15:32 PM EST

If you vote this down, you are saying in effect, "We don't need a meta section."
I'm not part of this "we" that you speak of. When I vote it down (if it stays in its current form) it will be because this article is more of a personal rant that belongs in a diary than a story meant for the front or section pages. I feel for Michael. I really do. But what can I do about it? I'm not an editor. What can any of us here do about it? If you want to make this into an article then it needs to have less problem and more solution.

[ Parent ]
What do you think of it now? (none / 0) (#162)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 06:56:46 AM EST

The point that my piece sounded like an angry rant to so many people was not lost on me. Neither was the suggestion that it was way too long. I spent four hours this morning revising it with both of these in mind.

If I could explain myself: I haven't been sleeping right lately, I've been staying up for two days at a time and then sleeping for twelve hours. I've been doing this for a couple of weeks. My wife is away and it is only because she makes me that I've ever been able to keep regular hours. I promised her I still would while she was away, but I guess I haven't done very well at keeping my promise.

The result is that my first draft was more than a little tinged with paranoia, as LilDebbie so anxiously pointed out. By the time I finally decided I needed to give up and get some sleep, I was pretty far gone, as you can see by my comment "On the Morality of Web Advertising".

But a good night's sleep makes all the difference in the world so when I got up early this morning I was much more lucid both in my thinking and my writing.

I hope I am now able to deserve your vote.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Re: What do you think of it now? (2.50 / 2) (#179)
by FattMattP on Tue May 10, 2005 at 11:06:03 AM EST

Now that I'm at work I don't have time to re-read it. I think that I should abstain at this point. It's too bad that K5 doesn't allow one to see a diff between the current revision and the last.

I think that the title of your story says it all. As ghost of rmg said, the editors are the only people who can fix things. I think the party here is over and you're one of the last to leave. What really is keeping you here? There are other sites where your writing will have an audience without having the trolls belittle you for their own amusement. I, for one, won't blame you if you take your toys and go home. You've sure put up with a lot of crap and still stuck around. Your skin is a lot tougher than mine would be in the same situation.

[ Parent ]

Why I don't mind the trolls: (none / 0) (#180)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 11:08:58 AM EST

Even Shakespeare had his groundlings.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Stop misbehaving (none / 0) (#348)
by CodeWright on Sat May 14, 2005 at 03:25:40 PM EST

Go to bed on time.

You can't have your pudding if you don't eat your meat.

--
A: Because it destroys the flow of conversation.
Q: Why is top posting dumb? --clover_kicker

[ Parent ]
Good quality content doesn't grow on trees (none / 0) (#174)
by nkyad on Tue May 10, 2005 at 10:06:33 AM EST

Good quality content is assembled from raw bytes and send to live in the Internet by a program called BitTorrent.

Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run


[ Parent ]
How about "-1, Meta-Spammery"? (2.80 / 5) (#218)
by BadDoggie on Tue May 10, 2005 at 04:56:10 PM EST

Look, CB. You know I respect you and love your writing (and am trying hard to figure out how to make it to HuSiStock). Your opinions generally score high with me., standing on the VIP list, as it were, rather than behind the general public's queue) But I can't for the life of me figure out why you support this spamming fuck. It's only your comment (and not even pw's) which triggered me to finally write something in this steaming waste of bits.

Let's take this step-by-step:

...highly visible K5 denizen...
Highly-visible because he's been spamming the fuck out of the place as of late, posting to damned near every diary -- troll or otherwise -- in order to magnify his linkage in the eyes of Google.

If you vote this down, you are saying in effect, "We don't need a meta section."
Wrong. I'm saying "We don't need this spamming fuck's shit all over this site." Look at the vote: damn near anything Ruston Howell III writes here is by definition "meta-wankery" and he also voted it down.

To those of you who would dis Mike for hooking himself into as many quadrants of the web as possible to help sell his written and consulting wares: fuck you.
Fuck you, too. I have no problem with him making himself useful, and a few of his stories were interesting enough. Open your fucking eyes! He's taken this bit of usefulness and success and turned to the dark side, spamming everywhere possible, not to promote the content of the stories but of his business.

Look at the fucking diaries, man! He's been shitting in damned near every one of them, openly admitting to spamming, in order to further game the search engines, especially Google.

The word for this is Fraud.

I'd lose my respect for you, too, if you started posting in Every. Fucking. Diary. With links to your fucking animations and drawings (ls is hot even in sketches) and your general services.

The difference is that you're not doing this. You post only when you have something relevant to write rather than trying to come up with something forced so you can get your spammy sig into yet another spidered page. Look at Spamford's fucking comments if you don't believe me!

if you have any sense of netizen responsibility whatsoever you should be encouraging that level of dedication
I'm a responsible netizen and have been fighting spam and fucktards who post it for a decade now. Dedication is Rusty trying to make this site work despite a concerted effort on the part of a small group to destroy it. I respect that. Dedication is not some fuck who writes on one subject after another only spread his links to increase traffic to his site and earn money sitting on his ass. I wouldn't mind getting paid to surf for a couple hours, but I refuse to spam in order to do it.

Do you fucking want a web where all the output comes from underpaid writers hired by megacorporations?
The only writer here at k5 I've ever seen who got FP'd that was selling something was Spamford. You didn't spam. I didn't. Manobes didn't. Hulver didn't. Rogerborg didn't. Turmeric didn't. Tex didn't. All of us could have dropped a couple well-crafted links to drive serious ad traffic and not one of us did. Not so for Spamford.

And it's worse because he not only submits that crap in stories and comments in those stories, he shits in every diary with his links, trying to increase his rankings.

Open your eyes, friend. I wrote this shit months ago. He even fucking quotes me writing about his abuse in this submission in a comment I wrote about my vindication after he spammed the queue with his "Press Release"!

Do you feel k5 owes you for giving you an outlet to write the brilliant Trimester Reports? Didn't think so. Spamford does believe k5 owes him FP for everything, because he writes and drops a couple hundred. But he spams!

Fuck that. He should've been anonymised a long time ago.

Christ, we're just trying to pay the mortgage, you know?
Good on you. But unlike him, you don't spam to pay yours. You don't go where you're not wanted. You don't add spam links to your sig and to your stories and comments.

Wake up and smell the poutine. He may have been something noteworthy once, but his abuse of this site and the search engines has long overshadowed this.

Your fan,
bd.

woof.

"Eppur si muove." -- Galileo Galilei
"Nevertheless, it moves."
[ Parent ]

It's because he's self-employed, like I am (2.00 / 2) (#220)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 05:19:00 PM EST

and understands what it means to have to work for a living.

And it's because, like me, he offers free quality content on his site, content that, like mine, he has worked like a slave to prepare.

And it's because he, like myself, faces constant criticism because jackasses like you expect that we shouldn't expect our hard work to yield any return, even though he and I both live in desperate poverty at times.

It's because he understands what it's like for me, just trying to get by, when it's people like you that are the evil ones, and not us who provide what little real value there is to be found on the Web.

It's because he understands what an awful battle people like he and I face, in trying to change the perception held by the public mind: the perception that the good ones are people like you, and not people like me and CheeseburgerBrown.

Thank you for helping me find a way to express this so clearly. I had struggled to find the right words.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Fuck you, spammer. (2.44 / 9) (#225)
by BadDoggie on Tue May 10, 2005 at 05:42:08 PM EST

I spent most of my life self-employed. I was quite successful and I refused to advertise. My business grew through word of mouth only. Any bastard can advertise; I only got referrals through my work, so the next client knew there was no hype. It doesn't work in all fields but it worked for me and I charged one of the highest rates in NYC. I was worth it.

I'm a jackass? No. I don't care how desparate you are. If you spam, you can suck a fart out of my ass. Period. I don't care how much work you do; at the end of the day, did you do right by people? I do, you don't. You spam the fuck out of this site and shit in every diary to spread your spam, gaming the search engines. Fuck that and fuck you.

I get a lot of mail from the Iceland Diaries, something I wrote only as a diary, never a submission. I almost never link to them except when excessively relevant, not even in this comment. I've had contact from two publishers and a number of requests to write similar stuff for a few places... for pay.

You are not CB. He writes incredibly well and doesn't spam. Your writing was sometimes acceptable, never stellar, and went downhill as soon as you decided to spam. Fuck you for that.

Now you write a massive spammy piece of meta-wankery moaning and groaning that Ruston Howell III should just auto-post anything you submit straight to FP. Prolific != good. You can't hold a candle to turmeric -- even with your diary spamming -- and he wasn't selling anything. You are. Fuck you for that.

Why is my comment in your last diary such a 3-magnet? You didn't even see it and if you did, you sure as fuck didn't read it.

Go away. Fuck off. Perhaps if you see the error of your ways I'll change my tune, but you're a spammer ad will not change. Your disorders are additional blinders ad you clearly fail to see the simple logic that I and many other have already explained.

My offer to Rusty still stands.

woof.

"Eppur si muove." -- Galileo Galilei
"Nevertheless, it moves."
[ Parent ]

Golden Hearted Linkwhore? (2.75 / 4) (#223)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Tue May 10, 2005 at 05:28:42 PM EST

If I understand the gist of your point of view, you consider MichaelCrawford's output to be -- h'm, what's the word for it -- spammy? I know this may have been a subtle element in your post, but I read subtext like Gypsies read palms.

I can appreciate where you're coming from, BadDoggie. At the same time, I have to admit that I'm guilty of a lot of the same practises that you don't care for in MichaelCrawford's bag of tricks...I'm just not quite as dedicated to it, and lack the time/commitment to pursue it more seriously.

My signature is a link to my website. The reason for this is twofold: 1) to drive traffic into my site from a pool of people who might make a good audience, 2) to increase my visibility in Google by posting top-level comments to FP stories.

Any mention of my creative projects is almost always linked to the relevant page on my website, for the same two reasons plus the addition of the fact that I like the idea of multi-dimensional text, and even though I've been on the web for a decade I still think it's so frickin' cool to be able to embed references (and cross-references) in writing. So, I want interested parties to be able to explore more of my work, I want readers to be able to seen what I'm talking about at any given time, and I want Google (Yahoo, MSN, et al.) to know about those things, too.

When I see an article on K5 that is related to one of my targeted keywords, I post a top-level comment in reply to the article whether I'm genuinely interested in the content or not. Because I am not a shameless spammer, I always try to contribute something real to the discussion -- but sometimes I just crack a lame joke instead. My comment is for spiders...what human readers may think of it is sometimes a secondary concern.

When I release a new project, I post a diary about it to every site in the Scooposphere -- even the dead ones, stale for months or years. Some of them still drip PageRank on the diaries Section Page, and since the content never rolls over a spammer can 0wN the valuable web real estate for free, with a single post every few months. No significant number of humans ever lay eyes on it, but the robots see all.

Am I "gaming" Google? Is this "fraud"?

Maybe it is. The SEO term for it is "Googlebombing." Like all search optimization strategies it can be employed for evil just as easily as non-evil.

If you search the net for "short films", you'll note that my humble (and currently disabled due to being Slashdotted) movies section on my website comes up on the first page of results, right before Pixar. That translates directly into thousands of people each month watching my cartoons. Thousands. And when they click on my ads, they more than pay for my normal bandwidth costs. I move from losing money to promote my works to bringing in enough money to reinvest in the effort (like buying K5 ads).

I would not be on the first page of the Google results if I hadn't worked at it. Does my effort make me a nefarious spammer, because I've tried to get Google to notice me, and it worked?

And yes, it's true, my strategy is not the same in goals or implementation as MichaelCrawford's. But the difference is just a matter of degree. He's playing it loud and hard, but -- like he says -- he's playing it clean compared to the more common web marketing strategies.

So...that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.


_____
I am from a small, unknown country in the north called Ca-na-da. We are a simple, grease-loving people who enjoy le weeke
[
Parent ]
A matter of degree (3.00 / 4) (#226)
by toulouse on Tue May 10, 2005 at 05:58:57 PM EST

That's twice in this thread you've tried to wriggle out of a logical inconsistency by hiding in the shadow of another one.

To those of you calling "-1, Meta-Wankery" I'd like to remind you that there is no such thing as a meta story that isn't wanktastic.

Yes, and that rebuttal doesn't change the point one iota. "-1 Meta-Wankery" means "It's meta-wankery, therefore it's getting a minus one" which, whether you like it or not, is a perfectly valid viewpoint. The fact that all meta is wankery, to a certain extent, is certainly debatable but is irrelevant to the criticism you seem to be trying to curtail.

Hiding behind the protest banner of matter-of-degree is no less specious. The difference between Jonestown and christian communion is a matter of degree. The difference between absolute zero and it being warm enough for atomic motion is a matter of degree. The difference between justice and murder is a matter of degree. The difference in quantities between oxygen being a necessary component for life and a poison is a matter of degree. The difference between moderation and excess is a matter of degree.

It's the 'degree' which people find irksome.

Having a link to your website in your sig is all well and good. Posting irrelevant comments to perpetuate that link which themselves contain other irrelevant links isn't. The Dawg should calm down, but he has a point. It seems to those of us who've been around a while that you're being willfully disingenuous. With all due respect; we expect better from you.


--
'My god...it's full of blogs.' - ktakki
--


[ Parent ]
I defy you to prove that (none / 0) (#231)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 06:54:10 PM EST

Posting irrelevant comments to perpetuate that link which themselves contain other irrelevant links isn't.

I have never once done that and you damn well know it.

I knew many people think so, which is why I emphasized the quality of my comments, and the labor they require, in my story.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

OK, you hypocritcal bitch - let's do this (3.00 / 9) (#240)
by toulouse on Tue May 10, 2005 at 08:42:15 PM EST

"Allow me to flog yet another of my articles"

"Being a shameless link whore has its benefits"

"May I flog another of my articles?"

"Care to swap links?"

A 'first post' thread-jacking

What have we here?

It should also be noted that even your erstwhile defender here, CheeseburgerBrown once considered you the site's biggest link whore.

It wouldn't have been so bad ... I mean ... you could have maintained better plausible deniability if you hadn't written a diary outlining your strategy, during one thread of which you display all the tricks of which you've been accused. You link to the same article - your 'programming tips' - three times. Did you think we all missed the first one?

Taking it one step further, we come to the initial plea to link whore, which was treated with the derision it deserved.

Your other diaries are just as bad

Here's a hint:

  • We know you wrote 'Living with schizoactive disorder'.
  • We know you wrote that article on colour management.
  • We know you wrote 'Pointers, References and Values'.
  • We know you wrote a whole bunch of programming tips.
  • We know there are all manner of treasures at your websites ...
  • ... Which we know are goingware.com and geometricvisions.com

Now, kindly and for the sake of community cohesion, shut the fuck up about them. The few articles on your website really don't deserve this much noise.

The thing is, Mike; I actually quite like you. I like some of your writing and, as a programmer, you clearly know your stuff - just the kind of fella we need around here.

Your link-whoring is a problem, though. I don't think you realize how transparent it can seem sometimes. It's really not that subtle. Trying to leverage other discussions to flog your links (don't you dare deny it - it's in some of the above links) is deceptive, abusive, manipulative, disrespectful, deceitful and the kind of exercise which really makes people dislike a person.

Nobody's doubting what you contribute - but your "noise" contribution is in grave danger of drowning out your signal, and after that point nobody will care whether you stay or leave.


--
'My god...it's full of blogs.' - ktakki
--


[ Parent ]
toulouse has posted 567 comments, 0 stories, (1.40 / 5) (#248)
by the ghost of rmg on Tue May 10, 2005 at 10:39:54 PM EST

and 8 diaries.

you're dead weight and no one cares what you think.


rmg: comments better than yours.
[ Parent ]

r0r [nt] (3.00 / 3) (#249)
by toulouse on Tue May 10, 2005 at 10:42:01 PM EST

Thus spake rmg.

--
'My god...it's full of blogs.' - ktakki
--


[ Parent ]
you should know that recrimination (1.00 / 2) (#250)
by the ghost of rmg on Tue May 10, 2005 at 10:47:30 PM EST

is universally seen as an admission of guilt couched in terms designed to change the subject.


rmg: comments better than yours.
[ Parent ]
Guilt? (3.00 / 4) (#251)
by toulouse on Tue May 10, 2005 at 11:36:52 PM EST

How can I be guilty of other people's perceptions? It should trouble me that you consider me 'dead weight'?

If there's one thing about K5 I dislike, it's people citing the number of articles or words they've put on the front page as justification for their (usually bad) behaviour. It was tasteless when SilentChris did it. It was tasteless when JJayson did it. It's no more tasteful now that MichaelCrawford's doing it. If being dead weight is the penalty for not indulging in this behaviour, so be it. I beg you to consider me dead weight.

Regardless: MichaelCrawford denied something that's readily apparent, and "defied" me to demonstrate otherwise. I did. The amount of vitesse my weight contains is hardly relevant to the actual point.


--
'My god...it's full of blogs.' - ktakki
--


[ Parent ]
it's amazing how much space internet users (none / 0) (#252)
by the ghost of rmg on Wed May 11, 2005 at 12:29:52 AM EST

can occupy with missing the point.

and of course you find it tasteless -- exactly as tasteless as people who've actually contributed usefully find your bitching. the difference is that you have reason to be ashamed and they do not.


rmg: comments better than yours.
[ Parent ]

Sorry ... forgive my ignorance ... (none / 0) (#255)
by toulouse on Wed May 11, 2005 at 12:50:10 AM EST

Which point, exactly, am I missing here?

Besides overestimating your ability to read between the lines, of course ...


--
'My god...it's full of blogs.' - ktakki
--


[ Parent ]
Thank you for taking the time to prove me wrong (none / 0) (#273)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed May 11, 2005 at 11:25:50 AM EST

Now how many of my comments were genuinely not link whoring?

Also, I hasten to point out what I said in my story: since kicking off my ad campaign, I have limited my whoring to my diary, my ads, and my sig, all acceptable places to advertise.

It's common for me to spend fifteen minutes on a single comment, and not uncommon to spend an hour. Let's forget about all the stories you haven't written. Have you ever put such working into a comment?


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Time elapsed isn't an objective measure of quality (3.00 / 3) (#335)
by Pelorat on Thu May 12, 2005 at 02:48:42 PM EST

The amount of time one puts into a particular piece of work has exactly nothing to do with the quality of it, and certainly cannot be used to compare it with anything else.

I could have spent the past two hours typing >just this sentence fragment< and getting it just so, but that doesn't elevate it to Status: Wondrous Object. Same deal with your writing. The writing is what makes it good or not, not the time you spend on it.

[ Parent ]

Maybe it's because you're more diplomatic (1.33 / 3) (#230)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 06:52:01 PM EST

and consistently charming. Diplomacy has never been my strong suit, so I decided that instead, notoriety might be to my advantage. Taking a cue from the Gay community's ownership of the word "Queer", I decided to wear link whore as a badge of honor.

I think what pisses Kurons off far more than any actual whoring of links is that fact that I rub their face in it - tenfold.

My decision was influenced by the sense of urgency I felt to get out of my old line of work while the getting was still good. I think your methods are ultimately the best, but slow to yield results.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Au contraire (3.00 / 4) (#284)
by BadDoggie on Wed May 11, 2005 at 02:37:58 PM EST

My signature is a link to my website.
Most people do that and it's acceptable. What they don't do is constantly change the link to the latest posting somewhere in order to build up the big link farm.

When I see an article on K5 that is related to one of my targeted keywords, I post a top-level comment in reply to the article whether I'm genuinely interested in the content or not. Because I am not a shameless spammer, I always try to contribute something real to the discussion -- but sometimes I just crack a lame joke instead.
You participate, and lame jokes are well-appreciated here and on HuSi. While I must say that I'm terribly disheartened to find your motivation to be the search engines rather than genuine, you've posted on-topic and relevant comments, unlike Spamford, who posts in Every. Single. Story. And. Diary. in his attempts to further game the search engines. That's spam, plain and simple. He often tries to write something vaguely relevant but if he can't come up with something, fuck it, he'll post anyway, invariably a link to something he wrote and with a further spam link in his sig. See toulouse's excellent rebuttal.

And yes, it's true, my strategy is not the same in goals or implementation as [Spamford's]. But the difference is just a matter of degree. He's playing it loud and hard, but -- like he says -- he's playing it clean compared to the more common web marketing strategies.
The matter of degree makes all the difference in the world! And "playing clean compared to..."? Puh-lease! Is he sending out 10 bajillion E-Mails? No. Is he shitting in every story and diary here? Youbetcha. You participate, he spams. See above example. I'll give you a better example. Here's how he'd write your material:

"I'm being beaten up from the inside!"

That is the sound of my wife gasping in shock after being punched in the pubic bone by our child-in-progress. Clearly she couldn't use any of the advice I provided in my award-winning article about Headaches. In the three months since I filed my first report on this beautiful and terrifying process, the foetus temporarily known as Baby has learned to express his or her moment to moment opinion of the world by bludgeoning my wife's uterine wall. Baby now has a fully articulated spectrum of primitive emotions, including pleasure (belly kicking), displeasure (bowel boxing), boredom (spine punching), and existential angst (bladder jabbing). I show emotions too, but usually when I'm busy rendering one of my films, like Space Attack!". You know the film -- I bought an ad for it.

Baby is well on the way to becoming a fully-fledged birthable infant, and my wife and I are well on the way to becoming fully-fledged parents. We read stories to Baby such as Farts and Acorns, a surreal novella about love and loss that I wrote, and Bye Bye Blair, a surreal short story about the homicide of God that I also wrote and for which I still receive dozens of queries about each week. One wonders and worries about Baby's first words, but these are thankfully months away. We are some two thirds of the way along now, and so it is time again for me to offer up my observations and experiences from the edge of approaching fatherhood: this is my Second Trimester Report, and it's nothing like the story of my visit to Paris.

[There will be a brief pause as I go find a cheeseburger or maybe a delicious poutine because while LittleStar has eaten everything in sight, she left LittleElse for me and frankly I'm starving. I'll have to fight traffic but I'm hungry enough that it's worth the drive.]

Do you see the difference yet?

If not, I'll keep trying.

woof.

"Eppur si muove." -- Galileo Galilei
"Nevertheless, it moves."
[ Parent ]

But... but... who cares if he link whores? (none / 1) (#321)
by Russell Dovey on Thu May 12, 2005 at 03:16:10 AM EST

If people didn't like it, they wouldn't follow his links. No-one is holding a gun to anyone's head here. Follow the links or don't. Whatever.

Crawford writes interesting shit here, yes? Case closed, IMO. I don't care if he's funnelling adsense money to Hezbollah - k5 is not hurt by his presence.

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

It's spam, that simple (none / 0) (#326)
by vadim on Thu May 12, 2005 at 04:36:43 AM EST

Nobody is holding a gun to my head and making me read all the spam I get by email either. But I think it's fairly easy to understand that I don't appreciate my account being filled with junk.

Same here. This is a discussion site. I expect comments to contain something useful, instead of crap to "optimize" placement on search engines.
--
<@chani> I *cannot* remember names. but I did memorize 214 digits of pi once.
[ Parent ]

you bloody wanker. (1.66 / 3) (#232)
by the ghost of rmg on Tue May 10, 2005 at 07:06:04 PM EST

look, i've normally kept friendly relations with you, but this sense of entitlement and obsession with spamming just pisses me off.

neither cheeseburgerbrown nor crawford have any reason at all to be grateful for what k5 has done for them. rather, k5 should be grateful that a few guys like localroger, cheeseburgerbrown, and michaelcrawford provide content that anyone gives a shit about. kuro5hin sucks. it has sucked for a long time. it is a cesspool of mediocrity, yet these guys keep posting here.

i don't hear you bitching about anyone else shitting in the diary section. of course, that's because you do it yourself -- i know you have at least one crapflooding account. no, no, it doesn't matter to you that the main topics of discussion in the diary section are who's a fag and who's a nigger. what inflames your righteous indignation is a guy posting innocuous comments with a link to his homepage in his sig.

your little rant wouldn't be so god damned sickening if it weren't born out of an intense hatred for anyone enterprising enough to raise themselves out of the mires of corporate life. this site is absolutely filled to the brim with spam as defined in the fucking jargon file entry linked from every post comment page but what really gets you is when someone stands to gain from it.

well you're full of shit. i'm sure everyone's real sorry about how hard you have to work to get by, but that doesn't mean we want to hear your bitter ranting about what an injustice it is that people with an enterprising spirit can get by just a little easier.


rmg: comments better than yours.
[ Parent ]

You've been sigged. (none / 0) (#233)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 07:22:20 PM EST

I hope you're able to appreciate the esteem I must hold you in to have bestowed this honor upon you. Regretably, there were too many characters to link your comment. Perhaps I'll discuss it in my diary.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

hm. (none / 0) (#234)
by the ghost of rmg on Tue May 10, 2005 at 07:32:01 PM EST

would you mind not sigging that? putting that quote in your sig puts it into a context i was not really prepared for it to be read in.


rmg: comments better than yours.
[ Parent ]
Oh dear me. (none / 0) (#235)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 07:37:26 PM EST

I'm happy to oblige, and I will, but I've already posted it to my diary.

My apologies.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

I'd like to chime in my agreement (none / 0) (#238)
by army of phred on Tue May 10, 2005 at 07:56:25 PM EST

really, baddoggies rants are out of place, make no sense, and are strongly indicative of unrelated personal problems. Baddoggie if you read this, hit the cancel button, delete your account and go fix your life.

"Republicans are evil." lildebbie
"I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about." motormachinemercenary
"my wife is getting a blowjob" ghostoft1ber
[ Parent ]
LOL What? (3.00 / 2) (#285)
by BadDoggie on Wed May 11, 2005 at 03:04:14 PM EST

Are you still mad about that thing at HuSi? CB gave me lots more credit than I deserved. I was only fucking with you a little bit; he saw an opportunity and took it.

Which account might I be crapflooding with? I can assure you that while I have some joke accounts *cough*Cherie*Blair*cough*, I not only don't crapflood, I'd regret doing it. Editurds here can confirm.

I've already written that I've been self-employed. I don't begrudge anyone making an honest living. Spamford is not. He's gaming the search engines and using this place to build a link farm that stays below Google's radar. Toulouse already pointed it out in a rebuttal a few comments up.

The first story of his I voted down was "How to Live..." because I honestly didn't give a shit. Other stuff he wrote? Well, let's see. I gave him some good advice (which he appreciated) in "ARM Assembly Code...", I missed voting on "If Indie Musicians..." because I was asleep, and I voted up "Links to Tens of Thousands..." which I now regret since the linking he got from that article seems to be what triggered the realisation that he could start link-spamming. And it only gets worse with every submission.

Read my reply to CB. Read toulouse's comment. Now roll over and play dead.

woof.

"Eppur si muove." -- Galileo Galilei
"Nevertheless, it moves."
[ Parent ]

"stays below Google's radar" (none / 1) (#286)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed May 11, 2005 at 03:11:16 PM EST

You missed the part of the above story about how I filed a support ticket with AdSense to tell them about Earn High by Playing it Clean, and they copied my mail to the entire support department.

If I were trying to "stay below Google's radar", do you seriously think I would have done something like that? Especially considering that half the comments in that story are mine?

Give me a fucking break. My assertion that you're a jackass still stands.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Google's radar... (3.00 / 3) (#287)
by BadDoggie on Wed May 11, 2005 at 03:33:28 PM EST

...as far as automation on their part in detecting link farms is concerned.

It's not that I have some personal vendetta against you; I despise not necessarily what you're doing but certainly how you're doing it, and I'm not alone.

The inevitable autohagiography in everything you now write -- story or diary -- makes reading them incredibly tedious. Your shitting in the diaries and other people's stories -- mine included -- really drives me up a fucking wall. You denied doing it, tolouse gave you more than ample proof you do, but that won't stop you any more than all the editorial and topical comments which told you how fucking tedious it is.

We know who the fuck you are. We know that you can write about some interesting shit. Treat me with a bit more respect and I might show you the same. You can't spam in my diaries and expect me not to be pissed off, and your comments in my REC diaries were completely pointless other than fulfilling your intent to place comments in every single diary that day. You and I both know it, Mike.

woof.

"Eppur si muove." -- Galileo Galilei
"Nevertheless, it moves."
[ Parent ]

I have never once shat in anyone's diary (none / 1) (#289)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed May 11, 2005 at 04:13:41 PM EST

Nor have I spammed them. I ask you to read where I say in my story above, where I point out how much effort goes into most of the comments I write. Would a spammer or Black Hat SEO do something like that? Of course not. I put the kind of work that I do into my contributions to K5 because I care about our community, and want to do the very best I can to make it a better place. I always have.

Now, you might well find my writing tedious. That's your right. I just read my first Stephen King book, his autobiography On Writing, and when I posted both in my diary and on another board about how much I admired him both as a human being and as a writer, several people responded in each place that they were astounded, because they felt King was one of the worst writers they had ever read.

Now, I suppose I could try to alter both my writing style and topics to suit you, but I'm pretty sure that if I did, there would be just as many people who would lament the loss of the old MichaelCrawford's writing and ask for it back.

So I'm not going to change my writing on your account, nor anyone else's.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Bullshit. Link inside: (3.00 / 3) (#292)
by BadDoggie on Wed May 11, 2005 at 05:30:21 PM EST

The diary was about admins dealing with AIX and Windows in homogenous environments. Your spam was a link to your GUI programming crap which had nothing at all to do with that, but you were on a roll March 16th, posting your shit in every single diary whether there was the slightest relevancy or not.

You have once again been proven a liar on this thread. Or should I be nice and call you "forgetful"? Either way, you did shit in a diry... mine.

woof.

"Eppur si muove." -- Galileo Galilei
"Nevertheless, it moves."
[ Parent ]

grudge? (none / 0) (#302)
by the ghost of rmg on Wed May 11, 2005 at 06:36:51 PM EST

of course not. that's water under the bridge. wind in the willows. dew on the tip of a newly formed bud after the first of april's showers.

i think, all things considered, that we have an honest disagreement of opinion here. rather than get into a screaming row over it, though, let us simply raugh out roud and forget about this little run in, shall we?

ror.


rmg: comments better than yours.
[ Parent ]

That's just it (none / 0) (#305)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed May 11, 2005 at 06:52:02 PM EST

I've made it plainly and repeatedly apparent that I have never once posted a single comment as a vehicle for the link in my sig, yet he and pwhysall continue to accuse me of it.

I'm tired of wrestling with pigs. I'm covered with mud, and I just gave the pig the best time of his life.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

What, bad memory? (none / 1) (#308)
by vadim on Wed May 11, 2005 at 08:17:58 PM EST

Let me refresh it for you a little.
--
<@chani> I *cannot* remember names. but I did memorize 214 digits of pi once.
[ Parent ]
Again: who gives a fuck? (none / 1) (#322)
by Russell Dovey on Thu May 12, 2005 at 03:20:11 AM EST

Fine, he's writing interesting material to gain visibility to Google ad revenue, or whatever. Great! Interesting material is good!

Honest... You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Why is it more honest to grow a business entirely by word of mouth? It's more hardcore, certainly, but honest? Wha?

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

just one thing i want to know... (none / 0) (#349)
by CodeWright on Sat May 14, 2005 at 03:28:25 PM EST

...is your emergency 'w' mouse wheel working?

--
A: Because it destroys the flow of conversation.
Q: Why is top posting dumb? --clover_kicker

[ Parent ]
Agreed, but what to do (2.83 / 6) (#53)
by rleyton on Mon May 09, 2005 at 09:12:26 AM EST

Crikey.

For what it's worth, with a few articles to my name here, I've recently taken to just lurking. I'll be voting positively for this article simply because it's already provoking something of a discussion about what's going on.

I'll say this for free, MichaelCrawford makes a valid point in that the quality of articles here has been sliding for some time. The frequency of decent posts has been sliding, and the sense of community that I so enjoyed a couple of years ago has all but evaporated. I've certainly stopped contributing articles. I haven't posted anything for quite some time having seen the unnecessary trolling, unreasonable negative votes and the real sense of teenage bickering that just gets in the way of anything approaching a balanced discussion.

However, all that said many of the articles submitted that get published - particularly to the front page - have been superb, informative, and of high quality writing. More so recently, which had given me cause to keep k5 in my browser shortcuts, and return to more frequently.

Regrettably the central point made is detracted somewhat by the subtext, deliberate or not: I'll leave this sinking ship, and take my money with me, if you don't take action. Whilst it is a fair point, it's still not a nice subtext. It's a veiled threat, even if it's not what is intended.

So my point? I think this story deserves promotion because it's likely to provoke a debate of some sort about the future of this very site. Valid points are made in the article in a lucid and well written way, despite the regrettable subtext.

Readers would do well to consider whether the current atmosphere and trolling that detract from posts and - most importantly drive people away - is really what k5 is all about. I certainly agree that something needs to be done: trolling is an affliction of a few attention seekers aiming to ruin the attempts of the many. This nefarious group is the tip of a spamming nightmare that affect almost anybody with an open-comment/contribution policy website, and k5 suffers given the open commenting/voting policy.

Personally, I'd like to see the scoop coders review the fundamentals of the commenting and voting system to take better account of previous actions. Egalitarian openness is simply open to abuse by a vocal few, and enough weight simply isn't given to people who try to contribute in the intended way. In a regrettable way, it's akin to a declining voter turnout here in the UK: A disproportionate voice is given to the minority parties when the majority don't care enough to participate. But how to get the majority to participate? A probation period in which voting isn't possible, and someway to filter comments/votes from new/probation accounts if I wished would be my suggestion.

Similarly, I've always thought it should be easier to post more in the way of shorter (MLP) articles that help keep the site relevant to "technology and culture". "Events, dear boy, Events" can often benefit from a preliminary and open discussion before a considered write up is put together. Adjusting the thresholds based on the type of submission would be preferable here.

But that's just my take on things. All in all, I like the article and would like to see it promoted for the discussion it will surely provoke. I'll certainly be taking care to moderate comments in the hope it'll be balanced.

--
Ooooooooooooooh! What does this button do!? - DeeDee, Dexters Lab.
My Website

Mike, relax (2.72 / 11) (#63)
by LilDebbie on Mon May 09, 2005 at 10:21:40 AM EST

As hulver says, "step away from the keyboard."

Now Mike, this is a serious question and I'm only asking it given what you've told me about yourself in the past: did you remember to take your medication?

This isn't a troll. I'm honestly concerned. This story here is tinged with paranoia and persecution complex. Normally, I'd just think you're pissed off or something, but you have a history Mike. Count your pills, ask Bonita, whatever, but please, consider the possibility.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

Well, you do have a point there. (3.00 / 6) (#64)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 09, 2005 at 10:29:39 AM EST

Bonita's been away for two weeks in Spain, and won't be back until later this week.

It's only because I have Bonita that I don't pull all nighters writing stories like this two or three times a week. I used to all the time, mostly on Usenet, back before we met.

Look at what happened the last time we were apart, and that was only for a week.

I haven't exactly kept regular hours since she's been away. I'm fortunate that my head's still screwed on tight enough to even be making grammatical sense.

And in fact, I didn't take last night's medication, because I knew I was going to need to be up all night to write this, and it would have made me fall asleep.

I'll go take some now, but I still plan to see this through to completion.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Be careful with that (3.00 / 5) (#65)
by LilDebbie on Mon May 09, 2005 at 10:54:24 AM EST

Given that Bonita appears to be critical to your mental health, you might want to talk to your doctor about modifying your treatment regime for those times she's away for any significant length. Just a suggestion.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
I'm taking extra depakote now (none / 1) (#211)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 04:03:04 PM EST

I've been finding myself giggling for no apparent reason. That's a really bad sign.

It would be the worst of all possible things that could ever happen to me if I got manic.

It's not likely to get much worse in the short time until Bonita returns. The problem is that it's difficult to reverse its course once it takes hold.

Fortunately, I respond well to depakote, and Risperdal has recently been approved for acute mania, so I could take extra of that too.

I'll call my doctor tomorrow if it doesn't get better.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Go get some sleep, dude... (3.00 / 2) (#72)
by 6502 on Mon May 09, 2005 at 11:40:29 AM EST

...you're not rational right now. A good eight hours of rest will help tremendously.

[ Parent ]
Let me get this straight... (1.83 / 6) (#68)
by Why is the password autogenerated on Mon May 09, 2005 at 11:27:56 AM EST

You're threatening trolls by saying that their continued harassment of you will result in the death of K5.

And this is supposed to.. deter them?

Seriously Crawford, you can be a right chap at times, but this ridiculous explosion of yours is just fucked up. I don't know if you chnged the brand of pills you take or what, but seriously, you don't fucking matter a tenth of how much you think you do. And nobody cares about you a hundredth as much. Okay? Okay. Now go back to doing whatever the fuck ad-scamming link-whoring crap it is you do and stop posting melodramatic travesties like this.

On the Morality of Web Advertising (1.30 / 20) (#69)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 09, 2005 at 11:31:28 AM EST

ant0n suggested down below that I might be mistaken in what I claimed in Earn High by Playing it Clean, where I implied that earning money through advertising on one's website might actually be an honest way to make one's way in the world.

I thought it would advance our discussion if I shared my response with the entire Kuro5hin community. I am worried that some of you might not come across where I first posted the following:

So Who Do You Expect to Create Your Free Content?

The Franciscan Monks, perhaps? I understand they've all sworn a vow of poverty

It makes me sick that we live in a world where people like you can make thousands of dollars a month through web advertising. This is disgusting. Get a real job, please.

Let me ask you this: how much money have you had charged to your credit card for all the Internet porn you've ever jacked off to?

Yeah, I thought so.

You don't think all those nice ladies in the pictures agreed to be photographed while they take it up the ass because they find it stimulating do you?

Do you have any idea how much bandwidth even a low-end pornsite consumes? Some guy over in alt.www.webmaster says a porn site he operates is one of several sites he runs, which together just barely enable him to get by. He said he pays three hundred and ninety dollars a month for his bandwidth.

Do you know how it is, that he's able to pay for his porn - and he has to buy it, if he doesn't just pay the ladies to pose for the professional photographer he would also have to pay?

Let me explain. Listen carefully. I'll type it real slow so you'll be sure to understand:

ADVERTISING

YOU IGNORANT MOTHERFUCKER. If my monitor wasn't made of glass, I'd come through it at you so I could throttle you with my own bare hands.

I published the first of my programming tips nearly ten years ago. Now there are nearly TWENTY of them.

Never in that entire time have I EVER asked anyone to PAY to read ANY of my articles.

No, not only are all of my articles Free as in Beer, I have several that are Free as in Freedom.

I have NEVER asked anyone to pay for any of my writing, and I NEVER WILL.

It is only because I was too sick to work and unable to provide for my family that I began to advertise at all.

Upon discovering that AdSense represented a real hope of finding a way out of the miserable existence I experience as a software consultant, I decided that maybe I could make a better life for myself and my wife by publishing more free content on my website.

Thank you for letting me know you won't be reading, let alone posting at Kuro5hin anymore, because by doing so you would be creating a burden on the bandwidth capacity of K5's web server, bandwidth you have no intention of ever paying for.

Don't get me started. Just don't.

-------------

Thank you for allowing me to clear all that up.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


dude, calm down. (2.75 / 4) (#78)
by garlic on Mon May 09, 2005 at 12:05:25 PM EST

I understand you want this story to do well, but copy and pasting your comments and posting them to the same story is crap-flooding, plain and simple. Not to mention the tone of this comment is pretty violent.

Part of the vibe of your stories that I don't like is how it seems like you're talking to yourself. You post a series of comments replying to your own story, which shouldn't be necessary.

HUSI challenge: post 4 troll diaries on husi without being outed as a Kuron, or having the diaries deleted or moved by admins.
[ Parent ]

OMG Crawford is going to beat the shit out of me!! (2.50 / 4) (#109)
by ant0n on Mon May 09, 2005 at 04:23:54 PM EST

YOU IGNORANT MOTHERFUCKER. If my monitor wasn't made of glass, I'd come through it at you so I could throttle you with my own bare hands.

I am very afraid of you now, Mr. Internet.

Don't get me started. Just don't.

Well, what are you going to do when I 'get you started'? Are you going to crapflood k5 with your excrements and whining until we all leave the site and you are the only one left? Or are you going to call everyone a motherfucker who doesn't vote your shite +1 FP? By the way, there's no need to link to your Shizoaffective Snowflake Disorder for the umpteenth time. Everyone on the internet got it that you are nuts already.


-- Does the shortest thing the tallest pyramid's support supports support anything green?
Patrick H. Winston, Artificial Intelligence
[ Parent ]
IT YOU WANT TO REPLY TO A COMMENT (none / 0) (#138)
by Sigismund of Luxemburg on Mon May 09, 2005 at 09:51:14 PM EST

CLICK ON THE REPLY BUTTON BELOW THAT COMMENT.

YOUR REPLY WILL THEN BE APPENDED BELOW THE COMMENT YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

ALSO, NOBODY ON THE INTERNET PAYS FOR PORNOGRAPHY. THAT'S WHAT IRC AND P2P IS FOR.
ANONYMISED
[ Parent ]

whoa (none / 0) (#146)
by NaCh0 on Mon May 09, 2005 at 11:49:21 PM EST

That's one tip on average every 6 months. It's no wonder running such a content-rich website keeps you so busy.

--
K5: Your daily dose of socialism.
[ Parent ]
Two of them took a month to write (none / 1) (#163)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 07:20:41 AM EST

And a half dozen or so took a week. Most of the rest took an entire day.

I've said before in my diary either here or at Advogato , that writing those articles has always helped me win new consulting clients, but until I started publishing AdSense I have never been able to devote much time to writing them because doing so took me away from working billable hours for my clients.

The last couple months have been the first time in the ten years that I've been writing that I have seen a payoff from my writing in less time than a year or so.

As a result, I have spent the entire month of May so far either writing new content for my site, or improving the HTML design of my old pages. I'm able to see a return from that immediately in terms of increased traffic to my site - it's the most it's ever been, and it's been increasing each day for a couple weeks.

You can be sure that I'll be publishing more articles more often as my ad revenue begins to approach the point where I can even just barely get by on my AdSense check.

I have already commissioned an article from CheeseBurgerBrown - paid him in advance, even. It's just going to be a short one because that's all I could afford, but I've told him, and he seems agreeable, that next month I will pay him for a much more in-depth one.

If traffic grows to the point where I'm making more than I need to get by, I'll be commissioning articles from other writers as well.

A significant difference between my site and most competing programming tips websites is that many of my articles are quite long, detailed, and in-depth. Pointers, References and Values, my second most popular article, has something like fifteen separate HTML pages, several of them quite long in themselves.

The longest article I've ever written is Living with Schizoaffective Disorder. It's fifty pages in hardcopy, enough for a small book. It took me ten days of feverish work to write.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

+1 when it goes to vote.... (2.66 / 3) (#74)
by haplopeart on Mon May 09, 2005 at 11:42:01 AM EST

...I've just about given up...I keep coming back because once in a while something decent shows up on the site...but of late the signal to noise ratio is getting bad.  

Thanks for sticking up for those of us that still care.
Bill "Haplo Peart" Dunn
Administrator Epithna.com
http://www.epithna.com

Okay, this has to stop (1.50 / 2) (#81)
by zrail on Mon May 09, 2005 at 12:23:22 PM EST

I was holding my tounge until now because I like your content and your style, for the most part, but Mike, you have to realize that posting reworded story content in a topical comment to your own story is link whoring. plain and simple. this, i think, is why people get pissed at you.

you misunderstand (3.00 / 2) (#113)
by Elendur on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:13:32 PM EST

When the grandparent was originally posted it wasn't redundant, the content got added to the story in a later edit.  Look a few comments up.

[ Parent ]
yeah, i saw that right after I posted (none / 0) (#117)
by zrail on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:22:41 PM EST

thanks, though. i feel like an ass.

[ Parent ]
I'm going to ask the editors to delete it (none / 1) (#136)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon May 09, 2005 at 09:39:04 PM EST

Right after I walk the dogs.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

0'd to hide (none / 1) (#355)
by wurp on Sun May 15, 2005 at 10:55:11 AM EST

a comment the author apparently wants hidden; not to judge ;-)
---
Buy my stuff
[ Parent ]
Bravo (2.75 / 4) (#83)
by SpaceMonkeyGrif on Mon May 09, 2005 at 12:28:56 PM EST

This is why I always +1 fp EVERYTHING. I do not care how wacko or absurd... or even how good it is. Everything needs to get posted. EVERYTHING. Dont care where... if you hate it, vote it to a page called "trashbin", if you love it post it front page. quit voting things down becasue you dont agree with it. who cares if you disagree. so yes i was probably one of the people that +1 fp'd one of your stories... as i will continue to do with ALL stories in the Queue until rusty decides to change the voting system to WHERER it should be posted and not IF it gets posted.

Whilst I agree that..... (2.80 / 5) (#90)
by Have A Nice Day on Mon May 09, 2005 at 01:36:23 PM EST

K5 has a culture of cynicism and trollery now, I don't agree that no articles of quality get through. Conversely, this is not an article of quality and will be getting a -1 from me.

This just seems like an obsessive throwing a temper tantrum in written form, and it seems even when throwing a tantrum you can't help constantly self-aggrandising. I'm sure you're a valuable member of K5, but you suffer from delusions of representing some hardcore of users who hate the troll factor, a hardcore that would kill the site if they stopped contributing. I don't think this hardcore exists. Anyone that hangs out here after all that's happened over the years knows exactly what this place is like and enjoys it.


--------------
Have A Nice Day may have reentered the building.
Let's start our own game (2.93 / 15) (#91)
by mikepence on Mon May 09, 2005 at 01:37:27 PM EST

I could nitpick about the enormous mass of this piece, about your too-frequent admonition to think about what you are saying and about the general whininess of the whole thing, but I won't. Overall, its a pretty good rant.

Every time I invest many hours into a story -- which I am hoping to do with increasing frequency -- I fight the K5-is-thankless battle and wonder if my interests wouldn't better be served by trying to get published somewhere else.

You know what I would love to see? I would love to see those of us who are serious about trying to produce worthwhile content band together and do our own site. With all due thanks to Rusty and friends, this situation has been out of hand for years and we hear nothing but deafening silence when the issue is raised. Sure, it will take a while to produce the kind of traffic we would like to have, but group blogs are powerful things.

Let's just fucking do it. There is no reason why we can't cotinue as kurons while we start our own game.

with my help, (1.66 / 3) (#104)
by the ghost of rmg on Mon May 09, 2005 at 03:40:47 PM EST

i think such a site could exceed all expectations.


rmg: comments better than yours.
[ Parent ]
agreed (none / 0) (#118)
by zrail on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:24:39 PM EST

lets do this thing.

[ Parent ]
Don't look directly into his eyes <nt> (none / 1) (#122)
by GenerationY on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:39:23 PM EST



[ Parent ]
rmg for Editor! (none / 1) (#125)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Mon May 09, 2005 at 06:12:49 PM EST

Seriously.


_____
I am from a small, unknown country in the north called Ca-na-da. We are a simple, grease-loving people who enjoy le weeke
[
Parent ]
IAWTP [nt] (none / 0) (#128)
by esrever on Mon May 09, 2005 at 06:43:21 PM EST



Audit NTFS permissions on Windows
[ Parent ]
Small problem. (3.00 / 2) (#193)
by Russell Dovey on Tue May 10, 2005 at 01:20:02 PM EST

Along with the talented writers, you'd get the mass of wannabes like me whining at the walls trying to get in. Might be annoying.

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

Not a problem (none / 1) (#228)
by mikepence on Tue May 10, 2005 at 06:24:23 PM EST

We (heart) wannabe's

[ Parent ]
We are discussing (3.00 / 2) (#229)
by mikepence on Tue May 10, 2005 at 06:25:41 PM EST

the idea of a spin-off site here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/k5spinoff/

[ Parent ]
ad limits (none / 1) (#95)
by kpaul on Mon May 09, 2005 at 02:32:13 PM EST

Unfortunately, I don't think I'm going to be able to spend as much as I'd like to at K5, because I don't think K5 gets enough pageviews to use up a whole AdSense check in a month. Rusty is welcome to prove me wrong though.

there's always the BlogAds. ;)


2014 Halloween Costumes

I am so sorry. (1.60 / 5) (#97)
by Sesquipundalian on Mon May 09, 2005 at 02:34:47 PM EST

Now that you've called my attention to it, I am truly ashamed of all of my irrelevant and insensitive posts.

If only there was some way I could make it up to you. God how I hate myself for being such an asswad.

You are such a beautiful, beautiful person. Please ignore us (we are mostly ignorant white people anyway) and for the love of all that is good and holy, don't ever change.


Did you know that gullible is not actually an english word?
I'm frightened by your devotion (2.77 / 9) (#101)
by vera on Mon May 09, 2005 at 03:09:43 PM EST

but will summon the courage to post a comment nonetheless.

You're a skilled writer, a decent madman, and an informative internet personage.  I can't imagine why anyone would hesitate to invest in your continued development and pusuit of a quality internet.

A small part of me is concerned that you're heading towards pulling a mcgrew, but I wouldn't bet on it.  Your personal habits are doubtless superior to his, and your stamina against this tide of apathy-turned-cruelty has already proven itself many times over.

You've given me the gift of motivation.  I want to submit stories that make the front page too.  I don't know anything about debilitating mental conditions, or technology, or even the cultural environment many users feel attached to, but I'm going to try to attract critical contemplation on subjects I'm passionate about nevertheless.  

As light attracts fireflies, such will be the apex of illuminative communication I shall strive for from here on.

Thank you, and please bear with us even as we seem to devour ourselves in the face of our current intellectual starvation.

+1 FP, HARD HITTING. (1.27 / 11) (#103)
by the ghost of rmg on Mon May 09, 2005 at 03:35:31 PM EST

the simple fact is that this is a site run by irc losers (like rusty and pwhysall) and trolltalk-style crapflooders. the first group is robustly indifferent to you (yes, you, the reader). they don't care whether you live or die. they don't care what you contribute. you are nothing to them and nothing you can ever say will change that.

they feel free to insult you, despite your having provided (putatively) some of the best content the site has ever had. they would never condescend to take even the simplest piece of advice from you, because that would show that they've lost control of the "experiment" -- that big hamster wheel we call the submission queue.

personally, i'm eager to see this hit the front page, even if i think it's a little too emotional and even if i think i could have done a much better job flaming the shit out of rusty and friends. i can only hope enough people will realize these guys are not the good guys so that the community's outrage might, just once, make rusty stop and reevaluate where this place is headed and what he can do about it.


rmg: comments better than yours.

The admins aren't the problem (2.16 / 6) (#105)
by army of phred on Mon May 09, 2005 at 03:42:24 PM EST

its the way moderation works here, ie., it doesn't. Theres been lots of helpful suggestions and theorizing,but ultimately if rusty can't run an interesting server with some working moderation then maybe he should consider sticking with carpenter work. Carpenters can make some good money.

"Republicans are evil." lildebbie
"I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about." motormachinemercenary
"my wife is getting a blowjob" ghostoft1ber
I don't know what the answer is... (3.00 / 3) (#106)
by evanbd on Mon May 09, 2005 at 03:42:42 PM EST

But I hope you stick around.  I enjoy reading your pieces, and every time a new one appears I am simultaneously inspired to get off my ass and write something worth submitting and daunted by the standard set.  I tend to think your pieces are long-winded and could use some judicious chopping, but they're still quite good and the effort you put in shows.  I've been quasi-lurking on this site for years now, and despite the trolls and asinine comments there are enough true gems to make it worth my time.

I think editors that were present and actually acted to make the site a better place would help, but I think the biggest problem is that there is a positive feedback cycle that is pointed in the wrong direction, and has a lot of inertia.

So, while I know it takes a lot to post content in front of the current K5 audience, I and I hope others are sincerely appreciative.

I'm currently struggling with some personal issues that make real contributions seem unlikely, but when I'm up to it I sincerely hope that K5 is a place I will feel interested in posting to.

I'm a cool troll right? n/t (1.00 / 5) (#108)
by communistpoet on Mon May 09, 2005 at 04:08:24 PM EST



We must become better men to make a better world.
God, no. (3.00 / 4) (#116)
by HollyHopDrive on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:22:13 PM EST

You're awful.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Thanks n/t (none / 0) (#120)
by communistpoet on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:28:36 PM EST



We must become better men to make a better world.
[ Parent ]
But *I* am a good troll, yesh? (none / 0) (#148)
by LilDebbie on Mon May 09, 2005 at 11:59:26 PM EST

Eagerly awaiting your judgement, mistress.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
Your posts have the unwholesome stink... (2.00 / 2) (#194)
by Russell Dovey on Tue May 10, 2005 at 01:25:52 PM EST

...of compassion. If you want the approval of the ass-trolls, this must stop.

Can't believe I just told LilDebbie "you're too nice"...

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

He saved me from certain destruction... (none / 0) (#196)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 01:28:54 PM EST

... by asking me yesterday if I was off my meds, because my first draft seemed so paranoid. It made me stop and think, and go to bed, instead of staying up and seeing it through until it posted is I had intended.

Had I persisted, I would be posting this comment from the psych ward, or even from the police station.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Yeah, I saw that post. (none / 1) (#210)
by Russell Dovey on Tue May 10, 2005 at 04:02:52 PM EST

That's why I wrote the one above. :) Under that evil, cynical, dream-crushing exterior, LilDebbie's got the heart of the Dalai Lama.

He might need that back soon, too...

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

sigged (nt) (none / 1) (#352)
by LilDebbie on Sun May 15, 2005 at 04:19:46 AM EST



My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
Do they make a cologne for that? (nt) (none / 0) (#209)
by LilDebbie on Tue May 10, 2005 at 03:51:48 PM EST



My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
omg (none / 0) (#129)
by auraslip on Mon May 09, 2005 at 07:38:00 PM EST

i k5 REALLY dying??
124
trollbait (2.66 / 6) (#130)
by thelizman on Mon May 09, 2005 at 08:04:42 PM EST

Don't you get it? Don't you understand? All you're doing is feeding the trolls. Those of use who used to contribute productively to this site figured all this out long ago, and gave up. Rusty worked hard, made a great product. He trusted in idiots to maintain the site according to his philosophy. And I titally agree with his lessez-faire approach for the most part, but the editors should be there to enforce the minimal standards of content. Instead, they're enforcing their kabalist idealogical bent. If I wanted that, I'd spend all day at Red State.

Bottom line is, this site won't grow. It's reached equilibrium, and it does depend entirely at this point on a constant influx of new, highly motivated, and not-yet-disgruntled contributors to counterbalance the flight of experienced kurons.
--

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
It's "laissez-faire" you ignorant slob! (none / 1) (#213)
by dinks on Tue May 10, 2005 at 04:16:28 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Dude, WTF (2.40 / 5) (#132)
by unknownlamer on Mon May 09, 2005 at 08:22:06 PM EST

This is one hell of a way to bite a troll.

You've lost your god damn mind, I just stopped reading half way through. Delete the story, take a nap, and just forget that rmg exists.

K5 is not that important! Your obsession with a website is crazy. You drone on and on about your adsense stuff way too much too.

Just remember, k5 existed before you and will exist after you leave. Just take a huge chill pill. Okay?



--
<vladl> I am reading the making of the atomic bong - modern science
Mike (3.00 / 2) (#133)
by ccdotnet on Mon May 09, 2005 at 08:56:24 PM EST

You need to just accept the fact that some users of this site will appreciate your writings, and other users won't. That's not the fault of K5 nor the medium - in the real world you'll be trolled just as hard.

You also need to accept the fact you're linking-whoring, spamming, whatever you want to call it, to make a buck out of your own website. What's wrong with that? You are most annoying when you try to justify your capitalism, and you even go so far as to deny it. That's what gets a lot of people fired up - not so much that you're out to make a living, but that you're denying it while doing it.

Finally, you're ranting and whinging. Will K5 miss your content if you disappear? Sure. But it'll still be here, and folk deserve what they bring upon themselves. So either stay or go, but jesus - stop whining about how half the crowd don't appreciate you.



he must be picking up a Canadian personality (2.50 / 2) (#145)
by wre on Mon May 09, 2005 at 11:40:59 PM EST

Here it's considered impolite to be a shameless capitalist.

[ Parent ]
I don't really care if you stay or go. (2.75 / 4) (#142)
by catastrophe on Mon May 09, 2005 at 10:44:31 PM EST

I don't think I've ever read one of your articles all the way through. Certainly not this one.

What a man gets for trying to be helpful. (1.00 / 3) (#149)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 02:10:51 AM EST

I want to help you understand how hardened I am to trolling:

The trolls here at K5 are amateurs: if you want to see a troll, look at the flameware that erupted when I posted a link to my article on alt.www.webmaster. I only posted six hours ago, and that clusterfuck has already grown to one hundred messages!

I had to file an AdSense support ticket, to explain to them that if Viper succeeded in his threat to get me kicked out of AdSense, I was going to serve them with a subpoena for GMail's IP address logs, because I need his real name and physical address for my process server to be able to serve the complaint for the lawsuit I'd be filing against him for defamation.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


As we all know (3.00 / 6) (#160)
by NaCh0 on Tue May 10, 2005 at 06:32:09 AM EST

The more links you can whore back to your website, the more helpful you become.

Keep up the good work.

--
K5: Your daily dose of socialism.
[ Parent ]

+1 FP - Technology & Culture-centric (none / 0) (#150)
by nlscb on Tue May 10, 2005 at 02:20:12 AM EST

Let blood flow in the diary section, and K5 be washed of its current riff-raff in a crimosn tide!

Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange

I asked the editors to delete this (none / 0) (#153)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 03:12:46 AM EST

I didn't really intend to repost this immediately into my story. It's just that I wasn't thinking to clearly because I'd been up all night.

I emailed help@kuro5hin.org to ask the editors to delete the parent comment. It's the middle of the night right now, so I imagine they'll wait until morning.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


Here's How You Can Save K5 (1.66 / 3) (#161)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 06:38:49 AM EST

The key to my whole argument is in the very first section:

I think the solution to the troll problem is never going to be zeroing their comments or anonymizing their accounts, but attracting more and better users to the site.

There's two things you can do to make that happen:

Write a story. It doesn't have to be a long one, and if you're not confident of your writing skills, post your first draft in your diary and ask for help. It's made a HUGE difference to me when I've done that, I wouldn't have achieved half the success I have if I hadn't done that.

Alternatively, host the story on your own website and link to it in your diary. That way you can repeatedly revise it without a lot of extra drafts ending up on the web.

I am incredibly encouraged by zrail's diary:

It generated 81 comments, the most I've ever seen in a diary, and most of them detailed discussions of possible topics for new stories. If you don't know what to write about, pick a topic from there.

There are two main ways new members find there way to K5:

The titles of K5's front page stories are syndicated in RSS feeds on hundreds of other websites. Sometimes a visitor at one of these sites takes an interest and clicks a link. But only a few ever do. The best hope we have of attracting new visitors to our community is to have fresh stories show up on the front page every single day. There is no way any single writer at K5 can hope to achieve that goal. That's why it's up to you to write fresh content.

The other way is that Kuro5hin's stories often rank well in search engine results. Kuro5hin's homepage is PageRank 7, which is an incredible achievement. As a result, articles on just about any imaginable topic show up in the top ten for whatever keywords are relevant to them. This brings new visitors who wouldn't likely have heard about the site any other way.

Again, it's up to you to write the stories that are going to show up in the search engines that way.

Finally, you can help out by inviting someone to Kuro5hin yourself. Have a friend sit with you while you give them a tour of the site. Email links to your favorite stories or diaries to your friends and family. Ask your friends and family to read each new diary you post.

Remember: the power is in your hands to overcome the trolls. If we got ten times the number of legitimate users we have now, the trolls would be lost in the noise. And K5 would get so many pageviews that it wouldn't matter whether I advertised here or not, Rusty would be able to make a comfortable living from all the AdSense clicks he'd get, and he could afford to devote all his time to maintaining the site.

Thank you for your attention.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


funny story (none / 1) (#198)
by loteck on Tue May 10, 2005 at 02:07:25 PM EST

once i wrote a story that got to FP and sent the link to some family members. My parents got ahold of it and decided to drop a comment.

Problem was that they had been automatically logged in as me. So i left a positive comment on my own story congradulating myself, or so it appeared on K5.

to cover up for it i thought about leaving a comment in my own stories congradulating myself everytime i got a story published. but in the end i just realized i was an idiot and let it go.
--
"You're in tune to the musical sound of loteck hi-fi, the musical sound that moves right round. Keep on moving ya'll." -Mylakovich
"WHAT AN ETERNAL MOBIUS STRIP OF FELLATIATIC BANALITY THIS IS." -Harry B Otch

[ Parent ]

Aunt Peggy saw my diary (none / 0) (#199)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 02:21:17 PM EST

where I said I was the #2 hit for link whore, and she sent me an email to congratulate me for being number two at google.

I've slipped though, for a while now, I've only been number three for a while.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

hate to break it to you (none / 0) (#215)
by loteck on Tue May 10, 2005 at 04:41:26 PM EST

but you're down to #4.

the sky, my friend, is surely falling.
--
"You're in tune to the musical sound of loteck hi-fi, the musical sound that moves right round. Keep on moving ya'll." -Mylakovich
"WHAT AN ETERNAL MOBIUS STRIP OF FELLATIATIC BANALITY THIS IS." -Harry B Otch

[ Parent ]

Dear Me! I'll have to whore some more links. (none / 0) (#216)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 04:46:10 PM EST

But that would be rude.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

You know, it's not clear to me... (none / 1) (#166)
by skyknight on Tue May 10, 2005 at 08:36:56 AM EST

that there is any substantial difference between the behavior of people on K5 and the behavior of the electorate of "real world" governments. In the latter, there is just slightly more nuance, which is to say, "with all due respect" is prepended to many a withering blast.

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
With all due respect (none / 0) (#351)
by LilDebbie on Sun May 15, 2005 at 04:11:51 AM EST

OK whatever I follow up with will be obvious as hell so let's just leave it at that.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
With all due respect... (none / 1) (#353)
by skyknight on Sun May 15, 2005 at 09:10:36 AM EST

that reply, while having much potential, completely failed to live up to it.

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
Actually this is the first article of yours (2.57 / 7) (#175)
by balsamic vinigga on Tue May 10, 2005 at 10:24:30 AM EST

i've read and it leaves a very bad first impressien and makes me not want to read any of your other work.  Probably best for you that it gets voted down.

The only part that makes sense is asking the editors to do something about the trolls (including the trolls that are themselves editors) I can't figure out what the point of the rest of it is...  something about ads and charitable will to you and rusty?  Your avg k5 reader really does not give a flying fuck about any of that...

The profitability of k5 and the feeding of his wife and daughter is soley rusty's concern.  My only concern is if i'm interested in whatever products he provides for me at whatever price.

Let's not turn k5 into a communist circle jerk.

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!

But communist circle jerks... (none / 1) (#176)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 10:32:49 AM EST

... are the whole point of having a Meta section at all!


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

no, circlejerks are th reason for the meta section (none / 0) (#181)
by balsamic vinigga on Tue May 10, 2005 at 11:38:26 AM EST

I'm not for mercy fucks myself.

"Life's not a bitch, life is a beautiful woman.. you only call her a bitch cause she wouldn't let you get that pussy.  Well maybe she didn't feel yall shared any similar interests or maybe you're just an asshole who couldn't sweet talk the princess."  -Aesop Rock.

"Well the trolls might be trying to rape her, but you crawford, are begging for a mercy fuck" -Addition by bv

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
[ Parent ]

Don't bother reading anything else. (none / 1) (#178)
by Nosf3ratu on Tue May 10, 2005 at 11:01:41 AM EST




Woo!
[ Parent ]
Death of K5 predicted! (1.87 / 8) (#177)
by ksandstr on Tue May 10, 2005 at 10:47:48 AM EST

Film at 11.

Seriously, boo fucking hoo.

Fin.

ugh... (2.66 / 3) (#184)
by bankind on Tue May 10, 2005 at 12:40:29 PM EST

this is whole thing is gross. And I mean this whole watching an insane person. However, on a positive note, this is as close to werner herzog as this site has ever been.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman

Who's werner herzog? (none / 0) (#187)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 12:45:22 PM EST

Is any of his stuff online?

And as for watching an insane person: this is nothing. You should see the stuff I used to post on the Usenet News.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

For Christ's sake... (none / 1) (#203)
by mirleid on Tue May 10, 2005 at 03:06:00 PM EST

...Werner Herzog@imdb...If you want to watch a really interesting movie, watch Maßnahmen gegen Fanatiker...

Chickens don't give milk
[ Parent ]
Wow. (none / 0) (#206)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 03:36:17 PM EST

I'm impressed that you would compare me to somebody who has what is immediately apparent to be signficant career achievement, but until I get to see one of his films, can you tell me...

In what way am I like him? I really want to know.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

I was thinking more the end of Stroszek (none / 1) (#207)
by bankind on Tue May 10, 2005 at 03:37:14 PM EST

But anyway, I don't understand how white hat internet master can't search on IMDB. He is like those autistic people that can tell you the name of every part of a car, but can't drive.

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

I didn't know he was a filmmaker (none / 0) (#208)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 03:38:38 PM EST

I thought maybe he was a dead-tree writer, and that I'd have to buy one of his books to find out.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

perfect (none / 0) (#336)
by demi on Thu May 12, 2005 at 04:40:22 PM EST

At first I didn't know if you meant Herzog himself, but now you've permanently and hilariously altered my memory of Stroszek. Gotta dig up my VHS copy of it now...

[ Parent ]
you mean... (none / 0) (#343)
by bankind on Fri May 13, 2005 at 04:40:25 AM EST

We can't stop the dancing chicken! Send an electrician.

I think this should be the new lingua franca for people having public mental breakdowns on the internet.

I might even go make a wikipedia on the subject!! It will be the next, "it's a trap!"

"Insurgents are blowing up pipelines and police stations, geysers of sewage are erupting from the streets, and the electricity is off most of the time -- but we've given Iraq the gift of supply-side economics." -Krugman
[ Parent ]

You really need to disconnect and relax. (none / 1) (#190)
by shm on Tue May 10, 2005 at 12:57:00 PM EST

Seriously, MichaelCrawford, you need to disconnect and relax.

I like some of your stuff. In fact, I went and got a copy of a CD based on one of your comments (Amelia?).

But this little tantrum/tirade/rant/troll(?) seems manic obsessive.

Obsession is the whole reason I write at all (none / 0) (#205)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 03:23:29 PM EST

You don't think I'd put so much labor into generating so much text because it was some kind of hobby, do you?


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

All hobbies are obsessive (none / 0) (#245)
by shm on Tue May 10, 2005 at 10:19:16 PM EST

I've been through the various phases of hobbies. Stamps, coins, matchbox covers(!), building little balsa airplanes, photography, electronics. You do need to be a little manic to be good at that stuff.

I'd just worry about the manic-to-good ratio. Need to keep healthy.

PS: It was the piece from Amelie, not Amelia that you wrote about in "Time Management." Had to dig it out of the car to check the title. Thanks for that pointer.

[ Parent ]

I have it in an iTunes playlist by itself (none / 0) (#318)
by MichaelCrawford on Thu May 12, 2005 at 01:27:42 AM EST

... set to repeat, and sometimes let it play over and over again for an hour or two at a time.

I found the score on an eCommerce site somewhere. I am determined to learn to play it someday.

I haven't been able to find the CD in a brick-and-mortar store, so I expect I'll order it from Amazon sometime soon.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Jeremiad (2.88 / 9) (#191)
by SocratesGhost on Tue May 10, 2005 at 12:57:40 PM EST

You're a good man, Michael and good action doesn't require reciprocation. It would be nice, of course, but as soon as we put a condition on virtue then we've whored virtue. Keep posting because you believe in what you say and let the merit of your words be sufficient reward for their publication. Don't worry about the response as most of it happens in the mind and not on the computer screen.

While you would like tangible validation, you fail to appreciate that front page is that validation. Front page is the cake; the comments are icing and will probably rot your teeth as well as your mind.

This is because K5 is the best of sites and K5 is the worst of sites. It can put thoughtful articles in a place of distinction and then throw shit on you because your shirt is too clean. This is what makes it great and terrible: a passionate person can write something of merit but a meritable person may not have the passion to survive the process and so K5 is deprived of yet another person's insights. Conviction, passion, and strength are all virtues here because your life on K5 depends on it. As a result, there's only two paths to K5 success: belligerence or beauty. If you don't mind fighting for every inch of text(trhurler), you may have a good time because anything worth believing will require defense; if you're born beautiful and write popularly (CheeseburgerBrown), you may have a good time because you've provided opium to the addicts. No disrespect to CBB but as well as he writes, few of his articles or diaries are that interesting or challenging to me. He improves this place as a garden does but he's no lawnmower or washing machine. This means that purposeful writers must have the stomach for a fight or else he writes about hot dogs, cheeseburgers, and viewing traffic through the metaphor of evolution. Interesting stuff for the length of the article but at the final word the interest ends (In all fairness, his Intermediate Guide to Formal Visual Design was not a garden-variety article--but look at the comments with accusations of ranting, raging, and one guy calling him a dick).

Thoughtfulness is neither necessary nor sufficent here. The same goes for intelligence. If you lack either the virtue of strength or the fortune of beauty, survival is difficult here. If you leave Michael, your legacy here will be that you're a quitter. This type of legacy can only appear in a place where merit isn't enough and that's the darker side of K5. However, since K5 may not adapt to being a place that unconditionally recognizes merit, the meritorious must adapt to K5. As a result you and I must post on K5 in spite of K5.

Kombate kudasai.

-Soc
I drank what?


Thank you for taking the time to write... (none / 0) (#195)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue May 10, 2005 at 01:26:05 PM EST

... such a thoughtful comment.

Sometimes I forget myself. Even Don Quixote had his moments of doubt.

No, I don't intend to quit, although I have been thinking it might be the best thing to do for quite a long time. But I think if I were really going to quit, you would never have seen my letter of resignation. At most someone might eventually notice that nothing new had appeared in my comment history for a long time, or my diary.

All the time and hard work I devoted to writing this - six hours for the first draft, four for the second - were never intended as a parting shot, but as a new beginning: if I was to remain at K5, I needed to shake up things a little, to roust everyone out of their lethargy and actually post something for once, even it's just to complain what a self-serving egomaniac I am.

My hope was that among all the bitching and trolling might be found a few nuggets of wisdom, practical suggestions as to how we could fix things, and that maybe some people might even be moved to write a story so that K5 finally has some fresh content.

Jesus was a righteous man, who lived true to his message of love for his entire life, except for once: when he beat the crap out of the moneychangers because he needed to send an important message.

I think I may have reason to believe that I have already succeeded beyond my wildest expectations.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

That was excellent (none / 1) (#271)
by rusty on Wed May 11, 2005 at 11:09:35 AM EST

That's a very astute thing to point out. All I would add to it is that in the way you describe, K5 is like life. Merit alone is never enough.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Gambatte? (none / 0) (#276)
by tetsuwan on Wed May 11, 2005 at 12:14:42 PM EST


Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

yes (none / 0) (#277)
by SocratesGhost on Wed May 11, 2005 at 12:19:55 PM EST

When I lived in Japan 10 years ago, I picked up the phrase but never saw it in writing so mentally I always associated it with combat since it is used to encourage and because that's how it sounds. When I checked google, I found one reference to my erroneous thinking and considered it valid.

Afterward, I checked it out further because it seemed strange that there'd only be one reference to it and only then realized my error. Thank you for the correction.

Gambatte kudasai.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
cool (OT) (none / 0) (#278)
by tetsuwan on Wed May 11, 2005 at 12:29:53 PM EST

Where did you stay?

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

Tokyo prefecture (none / 1) (#279)
by SocratesGhost on Wed May 11, 2005 at 12:45:08 PM EST

It was a small town in the country called Higashi-Yamato. I could ride my bike to Tachikawa station and from there it would take a little less than an hour to get to Shinjuku.

I studied Japanese in college for 2 years and accepted an internship translating manuals for this small manufacturing company in Japan. Turns out, my role was more like a token gaijin for the shacho to demonstrate how cosmopolitan he was to his customers and competitors. I was never given anything to translate so the bulk of the time, I was drinking tea in his office while he was negotiating business contracts. When he'd go to Taiwan or Korea, I'd go with him not understanding anything that was being said but I ended up having one of the best years of my life there: climbing Fuji, visiting the Daibutsu in Kamakura, hiking the steps at Niko to pay my respects to the Tokugawa, enjoying a hot spring at a ryokin (near Nara, I think).

I never made it down to Kyoto, though. That was intentional so that I'd have a reason to go back.

I'm assuming you've been there, or are from there?

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
As stated in bio - less than 10% (none / 1) (#299)
by tetsuwan on Wed May 11, 2005 at 06:34:58 PM EST

Tachikawa? Don't they have caves in the mountains not far away from Tachikawa?

I've spent a little more than two years in Japan - one year in Akita prefecture (Odate) and one in Tokyo (setagaya-ku). I'm very happy my first stay was on the countryside, since people are more friendly and interested there. Sometimes, I was called Amerika-jin by the elementary school kids, but that was just cute. I couldn't help that the only other blonde people in the town was a ALT English teacher and two (American) mormons. This was eleven years ago.

The second time I did a short internship at a Swedish company and a year at University of Tokyo. I was really planning a bum year taking random courses and enjoying big city life, but reality intercepted and I spent a year at one of the more ambitious research labs in applied physics at the university. They had close ties with people at MIT and my professor would ask me things like "Seriously kaaru-kun, are you aiming for a Nobel prize?". Fortunately, I had time to do a couple of other things. One of my best memories was when I played with a indie pop band in front of sixty enthusiastic people.

Anyways, that was three years ago and I'm thinking of going back this summer, if just for a two week visit.

By the way - what language did your shacho talk when he went to Taiwan and Korea? I know the Taiwanese don't really hate Japanese, but the Koreans would never speak Japanese, I guess.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

I normally lurk... (none / 1) (#204)
by mirleid on Tue May 10, 2005 at 03:09:29 PM EST

...and i will continue to do so...I can't really attribute a moral value to what you're doing (I make no presumption of being able to understand what that is, anyway)...WRT the trolls, fuck them, and if they kill the site, it's because they played it better than the rest of us did, which means that they earned it.

BTW: +1 Section, even if I do not have a clue about WTF you're talking about...

Chickens don't give milk
+1 section (none / 1) (#239)
by Smiley K on Tue May 10, 2005 at 08:15:44 PM EST

You have a right to be heard, even if you are making a sound like figernails on a chalkboard.

Section only because I think this kind of rant would really have a negative impact on the public face of the community if it was posted front and center.

FYI - Feeding the trolls has a way of making them stronger. Methinks you are going to have a larger problem than before.
-- Someone set up us the bomb.

Rusty -1'ed this. (1.60 / 5) (#247)
by LittleZephyr on Tue May 10, 2005 at 10:34:56 PM EST

How's that gratitude for ya?

Everyone, including Rusty, knows that you're wrong.
(\♥/) What if instead of posting that comment,
(0.-) you had actually taken a knife and stabbed
("_") me in the eye? You murderer. ~ Rusty

Rusty (1.50 / 1) (#253)
by Spendocrat on Wed May 11, 2005 at 12:30:33 AM EST

Is being increasingly baffling in his refusal to make any comments on what the fuck is happening with the CMF and K5 in general.

There is never any site news anymore, and the whole place feels like a student-group meeting gone horribly wrong. People bicker over stupid shit and half the people have shown up just to cause trouble (because they have nothing better at the moment).

Over the past few years K5 has gone through the usual ups and downs with respect to quality, but this low seems to be lasting a long time and seems to be sucking extra hard.

[ Parent ]

P.S. (none / 0) (#254)
by Spendocrat on Wed May 11, 2005 at 12:31:35 AM EST

The trolling and bickering used to actually be funny. How's that as a canary.

[ Parent ]
So what? (3.00 / 2) (#259)
by pwhysall on Wed May 11, 2005 at 03:13:52 AM EST

Stories stand on their own merits.

I think that this is too long, boring and vacuous.

-1 is the right vote if that's what I think.

Anything else is voting for the person, not the story: people don't get on the front page, stories do.

--
Peter
K5 Editors
I'm going to wager that the story keeps getting dumped because it is a steaming pile of badly formatted fool-meme.
CheeseBurgerBrown
[ Parent ]

Unless you're voting up the comments (none / 0) (#280)
by Spendocrat on Wed May 11, 2005 at 12:56:43 PM EST

Which happens often.

[ Parent ]
Point. (none / 0) (#315)
by pwhysall on Thu May 12, 2005 at 12:23:19 AM EST


--
Peter
K5 Editors
I'm going to wager that the story keeps getting dumped because it is a steaming pile of badly formatted fool-meme.
CheeseBurgerBrown
[ Parent ]
+1 section, move to diary (2.94 / 18) (#258)
by pb on Wed May 11, 2005 at 01:40:40 AM EST

Hi Michael!

Good to see you here again. I haven't been around here much, but you look like you're having your own little crisis here, so I'll try to offer what little advice that I can.

Oh. And I know you're reading this, because you're obsessive like that. If you reply, I'll try to reply sometime, but as I said, I don't read K5 much these days.


  • Most People Don't Care

    It's a statistical fact that there are only a very few obsessive readers/posters on any site. There are more casual posters than obsessive posters. There are more casual readers than obsessive readers. There are more lurkers than readers. There are more anonymous readers than people with accounts. You will never see most of the people that are here. Most of them will never have heard of you either.

  • They Also Have Short Attention Spans

    Most of them won't read this. Even if it goes front page. Even if they glance at it, few will click to read further. Even if they do click, fewer still will make it past the first few paragraphs. Even most of the dedicated people will just skim it for an impression. I didn't read it all eitiher.

  • There Is No K5 Community (TINK5C)

    A community implies some sort of sharing of values or exchange of ideas. Most real places aren't communities, let alone imaginary ones. But K5 is worse--it's what a democracy becomes when it dies--a mediocrity. By imposing its arbitrary and collective values on everyone, it actually takes away from our freedoms, and divides us. I can, of course, explain this point at length. Likely I already have in the past. However, if you don't understand the point itself, then you won't understand it when I explain further, so for many people I'd just be wasting my breath.

  • There Is No Moderation System

    Comment moderations used to count for something. They almost do now, but really they're pointless. It was again because of this tension of collective values that the moderation system got eviscerated. So if you get a zero, even 100 zeroes, don't worry, it's meaningless, and that's why people don't mind tossing them around anymore.

  • There Are No Trusted Users

    It used to be that "Trusted Users" were trusted to see hidden comments and rate them back up. As I've mentioned, this got exploited for both social and technical reasons. Now that any logged-in user can choose to see hidden comments, there's no point in having Trusted status, and therefore, no burden to be at all responsible either.

  • Zeroes Mean Nothing

    This obviously follows--if anyone can give a zero, and anyone can see a zeroed comment, then what does a zero mean? Nothing. Someone thought it deserved a 'zero'. What did they mean by that? Who knows. It's an empty label, what do you care.

  • The Only Opinion That Matters Is Your Own
    Given this lack of communication, lack of responsibility, and lack of responsibility, what can you do about it? Ignore it. Don't let it bother you. Leave. Or... fight The Man. This generally gets The Man pissed off, because chances are, he learned to stop caring a long time ago.

  • Don't You Have Better Things To Do?

    I know you do. Hey, you're a busy guy; you're probably doing those things too! So get an extra hour of sleep at night instead. Or dream about a better system where none of these problems exist. And then figure out how to get anyone to try it.

  • A Better System

    Yeah, I've thought of some. So have other people. I know a guy who had the same great ideas, and independently, even! It's not that hard to come up with better ideas. It's hard to actually do it, though. However, it's much harder to get people around here to listen--social structures get ossified over time, and technical fixes don't help for that.

  • Cheers!

    Once you stop worrying and love the system, you can take the extra time to be nice. Hey, I know you do anyhow. But I wish you all the best, and don't let this get you down. As a wise man once said--"It's just a website!"


---
"See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
-- pwhysall
not quite true. (3.00 / 5) (#268)
by the ghost of rmg on Wed May 11, 2005 at 10:43:16 AM EST

zeros convey aggression and that's how they're used.

the reason that kuro5hin is as bad as it is is primarily that aggression is the only thing that can be effectively conveyed. it is literally impossible to improve the site because the meagre avenues to do so are overwhelmed by the capacity of absolutely anyone to express their aggression and destroy whatever good will could have existed as the result of any attempted journeys down these few meagre avenues.


rmg: comments better than yours.
[ Parent ]

not quite true either ... (3.00 / 3) (#293)
by pyramid termite on Wed May 11, 2005 at 05:31:27 PM EST

zeros are an expression of agression, sure ... but it's not the only thing that can be effectively conveyed ... it's just the only thing some people here know how to effectively convey

it's not impossible to improve the site ... it's impossible to get rusty inspired to ... democracy has produced mediocrity here ... dictatorship could well produce excellence ... and it really wouldn't involve "censoring" each and every poster ... or many ... all it would require would be to think of some structural and policy changes and implement them and tell the people who didn't like it to lump it

rusty doesn't care to do it ...


On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
[ Parent ]

interesting. (none / 1) (#309)
by the ghost of rmg on Wed May 11, 2005 at 08:24:49 PM EST

you've managed to reproduce circletimessquare diction without using nearly as much space.

i suppose it would be more interesting if wasting space weren't, in and of itself, so effective for circletimessquare, but still interesting.


rmg: comments better than yours.
[ Parent ]

Positivity (none / 0) (#357)
by Koutetsu on Mon May 16, 2005 at 09:32:24 AM EST

I'm still intrigued by something that was mentioned in one of the meta-discussions a while back - the concept of a comment moderation system in which the only available moderation was positive.  Something like what happens in Fark's Photoshopping threads: if something strikes your fancy, give it a plus and it will rise a little higher in relation to the rest of the contributions.

Without posing as a PhD in Social Interactions, I have to think that crapflooding will be a little less rewarding if the only numerical response is silence.  You can never really stop people from biting the lines of trolls who tickle their hot buttons, but you can always just decline to hit the "+" button on that particular conversation and watch it slide down the page.

I only really use the comment ratings to find the generally well-written top-level comments, in the hopes of skipping a lot of the pointless ad hominem that constitutes a discussion these days.  With the approval-only method of rating, it might be easier to give more light to threads which have rich discussion but crappy top-level comments, but there's also not much reason that wouldn't be possible with the current 0-3 system.

Groups of crapflooders who approve each others' comments on a regular basis could systematically trigger an approval-weighting response which dilutes those approvals, so that a varied sample of K5ers have to find value in someone's comments for them to be considered well-written.  But again, there's no reason this couldn't be implemented with the current system.

You're right in that the moderation system and its concept of 'hidden comments' fosters an atmosphere of competition and revenge more than useful critique, but I think fixing that will take more than changing a range of values.

. . .
"the same thing will happen with every other effort. it will somehow be undermined because the trolls are more clever and more motivated than you
[ Parent ]

no question. (none / 0) (#358)
by the ghost of rmg on Mon May 16, 2005 at 09:12:02 PM EST

user-driven moderation is an inherently bad idea for a whole range of reasons. it's just another facet of rusty's idiocy that it ever existed here. it was just another half-assed response to slashdot where none needed to be made.

your idea on crapflooding might have some truth to it, but ultimately, a crapflooder gets his kick in the act of posting. it's the chance to do something bad that motivates them. anything else is icing on the cake. to deal with the problem, you need to persistently eliminate them before they can post or so shortly after they've posted that no one reads what they write.

this is why crapflooders are such a problem. they have no standards by which they could fail, so they never get bored and they always come back. as long as they know someone is reading what they write, that's enough. they don't care about responses -- this is what seperates them from trolls.


rmg: comments better than yours.
[ Parent ]

a - fucking - men (2.66 / 3) (#296)
by Run4YourLives on Wed May 11, 2005 at 06:33:05 PM EST

Although you forgot to mention that pwhysall is an idiot, always has been, and probably always will be.

The fact that even after rampantly abusing the moderation system he's supposed to help preserve (as Michael Crawford pointed out) he continues to be an editor shows that Rusty is an idiot also.

Honestly, those that have developed an emotional attachment to this site by posting high quality content should realize that it's time they followed the diary whores and start their own "Husi".

This experiment called k5 has failed miserably, but in that much can be learned.

It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown
[ Parent ]

You could be right about everything you say.. (2.80 / 5) (#262)
by spooky wookie on Wed May 11, 2005 at 08:33:01 AM EST

But i doubt an article like this on fp will attract new talented writers.

stop linking to yourself [n/t] (1.75 / 4) (#264)
by flaw on Wed May 11, 2005 at 09:33:32 AM EST



--
ピニス, ピニス, everyone loves ピニス!
TINK5C (2.83 / 6) (#265)
by regeya on Wed May 11, 2005 at 09:42:42 AM EST

The funny thing is, I keep reading merely for the entertainment value. When I first discovered kuro5hin, I took that line about "technology and culture, from the trenches" to heart. But here's the problem: Despite my frequent posting in the past, and despite my laziness at home, I'm a workaholic which means "culture" is out the window. And my "technology" interests tend to be Linux-oriented, as I use Linux and Windows at home (I use Macs exclusively in my line of work) and the Windows world, despite anything the trolls say, has a whole slew of media sources surrounding it. So my attempts at serious writing tended to center around editorializing about Linux.

Not well-received here on kuro5hin.org, is it?

The funny thing about this great big ol' Internet is that there are a lot of opportunities out there. Sure, kuro5hin.org is fairly unique, but there are millions of potentially unique sources of information out there. Focusing on kuro5hin.org seems like a moot point.

I would be sad to see kuro5hin.org go, but as far as I'm concerned, if Rusty were to decide to shut down kuro5hin.org and go off to seek gainly employment (yes, I know he's gainfully employed, chill) so be it.

Heck, Michael, I'd been tempted to start my own site again and be serious about it this time. Once upon a time I had written a highly-popular Gimp tutorial, which is sadly gone now. Actually, not so sad, since the tutorial sucked mightily, but I showed people how to do a neat little trick, and it made the rounds around the techie sites in a way that beefed up my ego a bit. I've been considering looking for hosting and setting up either my own CMS or a pre-made CMS, and start bashing out some things like Gimp tutorials now that I know what I'm doing (at least, know more about what I'm doing) these days. Hell, maybe I'll send the author of Penguin Command some updated art someday. ;-)

Penguin Command leads me to a final thought. If you ever install/run a game called Penguin Command (a Missile Command clone) the title graphics were created by me (again, before I really knew what I was doing.) I work in print, and the funny thing about print is that you get three sorts of responses from people, in my experience: 1.) anger at a job poorly done, 2.) silence, or 3.) faint praise. You really want to go for 3.) and maybe it's because I'm not that good (I think I'm good, but I may be deluded) but I rarely hear 3.) Usually it's 2.) What makes that bearable? A steady paycheck. ;-) Now , those people in 2.) as far as I know are happy, but it's hard to tell because I'm getting zero feedback. So the paycheck, regular raises and not being asked to leave ends up being my feedback. Not so with Free Software stuff! Imagine my surprise when I got a really happy email from the author of Penguin Command when I supplied some more professional graphics. Now, just so we understand each other: The sprites in the game were designed by someone else, but the starfield and title graphic were me. It's a small contribution, sure, but it was enough to make me feel a bit heady when I realized that it was shipping on Mandrake at a time when Wal-Mart stores everywhere were stocking Mandrake. I was pretty pleased, and left the experience feeling that I'd do it again. What do I attribute that to? Positive feedback.

Final point is this: People contributing to things like kuro5hin.org aren't in it for the money, which makes taking the criticism a bit harder. There's only so long that one can put up with "constructive" editorial comments like "-1, who fucking cares" without the vocal minority getting to you. Honestly, if I can come up with something positive to contribute I will, but if the vocal minority gets all in a lather again I totally give up on kuro5hin.org.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]

Agreed, mostly. (none / 0) (#350)
by Kadin2048 on Sat May 14, 2005 at 03:52:34 PM EST

That's actually a better summary of the difference between paid and "free" work (free as in pro bono, and in this case usually working on 'free as in liberty' software) than I've heard in a while. It extends to volunteer work in general.

When someone writes without any direct and obvious compensation (financial or otherwise), they're usually doing it because they're seeking some sort of self-betterment, the "warm fuzzy feeling," or maybe just reputation -- street cred for their anonymous internet persona. Who knows, but the point is that feedback takes on a lot more significance when there isn't that insulating layer of a paycheck.

Frankly, the fact that the quality of the articles still is what it is surprises me -- with the 'community' here, I'm rather amazed that people still write at all.

For the record, I don't mind the Adequacy-style trolls that much. In fact to a certain extent I enjoy them, especially when there's some intelligent commentary underlying the troll. And if not, then sometimes they're amusing.

What bothers me also are the thoughtless "-1 this sucks /nt" type posts that regeya was talking about. They don't do anything for the community, and they don't do anything for the author of the article either. At the end of the day I think it's those people who are truly self-centered, because they think that someone ought to give a damn about their barely-polysyllabic response to someone else's effort.

I see this as a failure of the community-moderation system. Instead of contentless responses getting zeroed and hidden as they should, they remain -- either because of the indifference of the community or boosting by duplicate accounts I'm not sure.

[ Parent ]

Double-jointed? (2.16 / 6) (#269)
by Pelorat on Wed May 11, 2005 at 10:50:02 AM EST

You'd almost have to be - otherwise you'd fucking sprain something from all that self-backpatting.

And holy crap, I haven't seen so much whimper-soaked angst since "Wha Wha" Razzano left town. You wouldn't happen to be related, would ya? His persecution complex was almost as big as yours...

You know, I typed this comment with my testicles.. (2.36 / 11) (#270)
by Sesquipundalian on Wed May 11, 2005 at 11:07:43 AM EST

And it didn't hurt as much as I thought it would. I bet I could moderate with these big bad boys as well.


Did you know that gullible is not actually an english word?
i'm impressed. (3.00 / 4) (#294)
by forgotten on Wed May 11, 2005 at 05:32:57 PM EST

now try pressing ctl-alt-delete with your testicles.

--

[ Parent ]

He has a Macintosh (none / 0) (#300)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed May 11, 2005 at 06:35:40 PM EST

It's command-option-powerkey.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

he has a mac AND testicles? (3.00 / 6) (#303)
by forgotten on Wed May 11, 2005 at 06:42:10 PM EST

now thats just weird.

--

[ Parent ]

So is Sen a Mac user? (none / 0) (#304)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed May 11, 2005 at 06:48:09 PM EST

While I have three Macintoshes, one of them runs Linux for PowerPC, and I also have a dual boot Win2k/Debian box.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Yes, but (3.00 / 2) (#330)
by Pelorat on Thu May 12, 2005 at 11:11:04 AM EST

What color are the IDE cables?

[ Parent ]
Good Morning, it's a Bright New Day! (1.00 / 5) (#272)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed May 11, 2005 at 11:20:15 AM EST

267 comments (161 topical, 106 editorial, 1 hidden)

I had hoped that by posting such an inflammatory article, I might stimulate vigorous discussion, and that among all the trolls and flames might be found a few nuggets of wisdom: practical suggestions for what we can do.

It seems I have already succeeded beyond my wildest expectations, and I am grateful for your help.

I don't have much time to post today, as I need to get back to billable work for my clients, but rest assured I have already read most of your comments, will eventually read all of them, and will reply to many.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


by golly.... (none / 0) (#282)
by The Amazing Idiot on Wed May 11, 2005 at 02:21:01 PM EST

This uber-troll-troll might just make it FP ;)

*wonders what one was hidden....

[ Parent ]

It's not meant as a troll, not at all (none / 0) (#283)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed May 11, 2005 at 02:29:30 PM EST

... but as a sorely needed swift kick in the pants.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

well, (none / 0) (#290)
by The Amazing Idiot on Wed May 11, 2005 at 04:35:08 PM EST

I was meaning it in the best sence of the word.. As someone who uses disdain to challenge apathy.

I guess Im a troll. Doesnt bother me one whit ;)

[ Parent ]

get a blog - (not a flame) (2.75 / 8) (#281)
by pyramid termite on Wed May 11, 2005 at 01:57:33 PM EST

k5 is a dinosaur ... a starving, clumsy, lumbering wraith of what it once was ... some people say it was the trolls that made it such ... others say it was the people who constantly went to war against such ... and everyone seems to think that rusty and company has some kind of responsibility to make this site better than it has been

unlike many of the people who've publically left here, i represent a silent majority of those who bailed ... just people who gradually, and subtly slipped away ... the general quality of this site and community went downhill ... those who remained to attempt to continue it seemed generally sterile and uninteresting and those who stuck around to troll struck me as unfunny and unkind

this has become the kind of place where one can post that the sun's going to rise in the east tomorrow and get someone replying that no it isn't, your dad had gay sex with you, or all sorts of annoying, babbling inanity ... people don't want to wade through all that crap to have an intelligent conversation ... and they sure as hell aren't going to post much of anything that's personal and sensitive in an environment like that

i blog on a well known blogging site ... i'm just one of millions ... i post what i like and don't have to submit it to some voting process ... i define community by who i link to and what blogrings i choose to join ... if someone were to post a nasty comment on my site, i could delete it with one mouse click ... if they stalked and harassed me with nasty comments, i could get them booted ... it's interesting that i've only had under 10 nasty comments in the last year out of hundreds ... and i've only deleted a couple that were code attacks on browsers ... people are a lot more polite and considerate there, because they know they'll get deleted, subjected to community scorn or thrown out altogether if they don't behave themselves ... and instead of a bunch of self-referential and "net"-culture obsessed white male geeks, there's a genuinely diverse cross-section of people there, most of which happen to be female

this is what most people want from an interactive web experience ... to be a part of a community and define what that community is and how it interacts with them ... k5 doesn't offer that ... and yes, i know it was never intended to ... but this is why some people have left, because they've moved on to better places where they have more control ... more importantly, this is why many people never came here in the first place ... especially women ... because they don't want to deal with an environment where any jackass can ask to see their boobs or make dumb negative comments

rusty calls this place an experiment, and so it is ... and like any experiment, the results are now here for all to see and the science and art of online social interaction have moved on to other, more successful experiments

in short, this place has the same relationship to blogging now that usenet had to k5 3 years ago ... an antiquated means of discussion that saw its heyday and now remains a part of the net that is worthy to a few, laughed at by a few more and generally ignored by everyone else

michael, the fact that you can actually say that your leaving this site unless certain things were changed would hurt it ... and be believable ... tells me how far this site's fallen in the last 3 years ... and that's not a slam against you ... 3 years ago, you were one of a large, intelligent crowd ... now you are one of a few who stand out in a crowd of babbling mediocrities

the fact that self-promotion of your business interests seems to be a major motivation of your staying here, also tells me how far this place has fallen ... be honest ... 3 years ago, you had more interesting reasons than that and they've fallen by the wayside, haven't they?

and rusty ... if it amuses you, continue to run this place, but don't expect anything else than what you've already seen ... the experiment is over ... stick a fork in it, the turkey's done ... and you can continue to serve turkey sandwiches here for years or move on to something else, like i have

(insert trolls, flamebait, negative comments and heartfelt denial below)


On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.

it's just ... sleeping! a flesh wound! (none / 0) (#320)
by kpaul on Thu May 12, 2005 at 02:19:32 AM EST

etc.


2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]

Well, let's see... (none / 0) (#331)
by anno1602 on Thu May 12, 2005 at 11:50:41 AM EST

The sun is going to rise in the east tomorrow!

Anybody?
--
"Where you stand on an issue depends on where you sit." - Murphy
[ Parent ]

no, actually, it rises ... (none / 0) (#333)
by pyramid termite on Thu May 12, 2005 at 01:31:15 PM EST

... a few degrees north of east now that we're past the equinox


On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
[ Parent ]

The only (1.75 / 4) (#295)
by Harvey Anderson on Wed May 11, 2005 at 05:59:18 PM EST

thing really wrong with you that I can see is that you are a desperate attention-monger without shame.

Also, you've based an entire story around a trolling comment.  Whoops!

See above (none / 0) (#298)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed May 11, 2005 at 06:34:43 PM EST

I address the very thing you said in great detail.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Catch-22. (2.50 / 2) (#332)
by Harvey Anderson on Thu May 12, 2005 at 12:58:08 PM EST

It's already been established that you are an attention-monger, one who keeps beating the same dead horses and the overall impression one gets is that you are talking about yourself more than you are talking to us.

I am casual reader of this site.  But I know a hell of a lot about you, and my memory isn't even that great.  Software consultant, Canada, psychological disorders, etc etc etc etc etc.  It presupposes that people give a shit about you as a person, which is not to say that they shouldn't but it's still an impolite assumption.

It screams 'needy'.  Granted, most artists and writers are needy people who need frequent acknowledgement of their worth by others, but this is just over the top.  Psychic vampire stuff.

In light of all this, it's impossible to view your entire screed as anything but another hat in the ring of your need to feel important.

[ Parent ]

On Trolls (1.33 / 3) (#297)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed May 11, 2005 at 06:33:43 PM EST

I want to thank you all for your support. Even many of you who voted against me still posted helpful comments. I'm disappointed I didn't make front page - it looked for a while like I might - but I knew from the start that such an inflammatory essay faced an uphill battle. I'm grateful that it posted at all, and incredibly encouraged that of 189 +1 votes, 115 were for front page.

In a way, I'm encouraged even by the -1 votes as well. I meant to inflame the passions of the K5 community, and the fact that I made people give a damn one way or another is demonstrated by the fact that 386 votes were cast in total, indicating my story had far more interest from the moderators than most ever get.

rmg is creaming himself - Friedrich Dionysus

You just spent six fucking hours biting on a tired adequoid copycat's post. you just gave him the only screaming orgasm he will ever achieve. - Sigismund of Luxemburg

This was how I found out that rmg's post which inspired me to spend six hours writing my first draft was apparently a troll of historic proportions.

But I had no regrets, and have none now: if someone speaks the truth with the intent to deceive, has he lied? I didn't think so, and being told that I bit a troll didn't stop me from devoting four hours to the second draft.

But was it really a troll? When I asked rmg about it, here's what he had to say:

i was completely serious about that.

it's true that as a master troll, i tend to write in a way that evokes more emotion than most people, but that doesn't mean everything i write is a troll.

while my motives may be perverse, i would genuinely like to see kuro5hin improve. in writing the post you refer to, i hoped to promote awareness and outrage amongst the userbase. what i didn't expect is that anything useful would be done about it.

I find that encouraging, but wonder if I am still being trolled. As localroger said in The Adequacy Style Troll (AST): a Brief Refresher:

For every prostitute there is a first time you have sex for money, and for every troll there is a first time you just cut the hell up for the purity of the chaos instead of any real belief in the topic at hand.

...

once you acquire a reputation as an AST'er you will never be able to claim any passions you might develop. Sade's troll was marvelously effective but he still spent half his life in jail and mental institutions, a price Internet trolls fortunately do not face.

In any case, I don't think it matters whether rmg trolled me or not. If he didn't, I admire his conviction. If he did, I admire his skill: his post was kick in the ass I needed to finally get off of it and finally do what I'd been contemplating for months: shake things up around here.

I don't mind all trolls: I favor the Adequacy Style Troll myself. The only reason I don't pull more of them than I do is that I just don't feel like taking the time to craft one worthy of the effort. Trolls don't bother me nearly as much as they do most people. After all,

Even Shakespeare had his groundlings.

Over the last couple days I admitted to several people that I never really meant to leave. It is true that I was close to it, as I said in my essay, but if I were really ready to give up, you would have never seen my letter of resignation. Instead, someone might eventually noticed that there were hadn't been any posts in my comment history for a long time, or my diary.

No, this piece didn't mark the end of my career at K5, instead, I meant is as a new beginning. I wanted to stay, but if I was going to, something had to change, and I felt it was my responsibility to do my part to give K5 the kick in the pants that rmg gave me, so that all those Kurons who had drifted into lethargy might get off their collective asses and make a postive contribution instead of letting the trolls continue to run the place.

The uproar in the diaries and the hundreds of comments posted so far make me feel like I have already succeeded beyond my wildest dreams. But was my essay really an uber-troll? No, not at all:

My hope was that among all the bitching and trolling might be found a few nuggets of wisdom, practical suggestions as to how we could fix things, and that maybe some people might even be moved to write a story so that K5 finally has some fresh content.

Jesus was a righteous man, who lived true to his message of love for his entire life, except for once: when he beat the crap out of the moneychangers because he needed to send an important message.

Now I want to say a word about my shameless self-promotion: CheeseburgerBrown has repeatedly taken pains to point out that he whores just as much as I do when he has spoken in my defense. In fact, he does it far worse than I have since I announced my ad campaign, as I explained in my essay. How is it that he can get away when I can't?

It's not because I do anything the least bit dishonest or underhanded: my self-promotion is and has always been completely transparent. Nor am I trying to game google as I am so often accused. It's absolutely not true that I ever post comments in anyone's diary or anywhere else as a vehicle for the links in my signature, as I thought my essay's emphasis on the care with which I craft my comments should have made clear.

Why?

It's because CheeseburgerBrown is subtle, clever, and diplomatic. I'm not, and don't try to be. You aren't angry because of any dishonesty on my part. It is because I am so in-your-face that you are outraged. And I grant that you have every reason to be pissed off about that. I just ask that you not confuse it with dishonesty, or Black Hat Search Engine Optimization. Black Hat SEO and my marketing strategy are two very different things.

I knew from the start that CheeseburgerBrown's strategy would ultimately be the best in the long term, but I didn't, and don't have that kind of time. I chose to use notoriety to my advantage, because the serious nature of my disability made me feel that it was important that I get out of my old line of work while the getting was still good.

I'm pretty sure what pissed you all off more than anything else was the fact that I took a cue from the Gay community's ownership of the word "queer" and decided to wear link whore as a badge of honor. To take your complaints and throw them back at you tenfold was quite apparently an unforgivable offense.

But understand this. I want to make the following very clear: it is not a dishonest one. I have never been a dishonest man, and never will be. Someone at Advogato once called me "MichaelCrawford the Principled". I don't think he would have called me that if I were the sort to cheat.

Now I'm going to tell you where I learned to sell myself the way I do. It's not a very well-kept secret: the book I'm about to recommend is famous in marketing circles, and for a time was the number one top seller at Amazon. It's made such a difference to me that I'd pass it out on the streetcorner if I could afford to buy so many copies:

Locke is also one of the coauthors of The Cluetrain Manifesto, which also influences my thinking.

My strategy, it seems, is paying off: when I kicked off my ad campaign, I figured the best I could hope for was that I could Quit My Job for AdSense in about a year. But my web server logs and my AdSense Ad Performance Report give me some real reason to hope that the contract I'm working on right now might well be the last one I ever do.

Thank you for your help, and thank you for your attention.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


Oh sweet lord STFU already (2.66 / 6) (#306)
by eejit on Wed May 11, 2005 at 07:26:21 PM EST

Have you stopped taking your crazy-tablets?

It's because CheeseburgerBrown is subtle, clever, and diplomatic.
Yes, it's also because he is interesting. You, I'm afraid, are painfully dull. Your writing can be extremely tedious and ranting, plus some of the stuff on your website honestly makes me cringe as I read it. Your make-believe press reports for a start.

While I'm here I might as well post a few more comments, being the helpful k5'er that I am: talking about your supposed mental disability in every fucking comment/diary has become extremely boring now; I do not care. Not one bit. Also, mentioning 'Bonita' in every comment/diary makes you appear to be some kind of love-sick stalker.

[ Parent ]

BTW (none / 0) (#313)
by vadim on Wed May 11, 2005 at 09:15:16 PM EST

Is 'Bonita' a real name, or it's a nickname? Hope it's the later. It means "pretty" in Spanish and sounds awfully corny. Never heard of anybody with that name in Spain, but then there are some truly awful female names here...
--
<@chani> I *cannot* remember names. but I did memorize 214 digits of pi once.
[ Parent ]
It's her real name, but she's not Hispanic (none / 0) (#314)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed May 11, 2005 at 10:41:47 PM EST

Bonita is actually of British, Irish and French descent. She is from a small fishing village in Newfoundland, a large island that is Canada's easternmost province.

The Salvation Army Church is very big there. Just before Bonita was born, a couple who had been Salvation Army missionaries to Latin America returned to Bonita's home town. They had a daughter that had been born while they were away who was named Bonita. My Bonita's parents, who were also Salvation Army, thought that was a nice name, so they gave it her. I'm not sure if they knew what it meant - I think Bonita herself didn't find out until she came to live with me in California. She was a big hit with the Mexicans who worked in the rose greenhouse where she worked too for a while.

Bonita's not in Spain right now because she's from there, but because she's on a trip to see Spanish art and architecture with about fifty of her fellow art school students. She got to see the originals of some Goya pieces that she studied in nineteenth century art history this last semester, something she found very exciting.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Thanks, but... (3.00 / 4) (#325)
by vadim on Thu May 12, 2005 at 04:29:31 AM EST

This reply shows exactly the same problem your article has. You can't just get to the point and give a straight answer, you have to go on a tangent and not only write a lot more than I asked for, but add completely unrequested stuff as well. I'll use this post for the sake of an example. What's wrong with it?
Bonita is actually of British, Irish and French descent. She is from a small fishing village in Newfoundland, a large island that is Canada's easternmost province.
Well, first of all it's too verbose. I'm not interested in where she descended from, or the exact place of her birth, for instance.
The Salvation Army Church is very big there.
Next, you mention the Salvation Army. Big problem here. It would be fairly easy for me to go on a tangent and rant about it here, since they're an organization I find highly annoying.
She was a big hit with the Mexicans who worked in the rose greenhouse where she worked too for a while.
Completely irrelevant to the question. You seem to just need to praise somebody, be it yourself or Bonita.
She got to see the originals of some Goya pieces that she studied in nineteenth century art history this last semester, something she found very exciting.
More irrelevant information. I could find something to say about Goya here.

So what's the overall problem here? The abundance of additional and irrelevant information that makes it very easy to go on a tangent and rant about the Salvation Army or Goya and completely ignore what it was supposed to be about. The article has the same problem, except much worse.


--
<@chani> I *cannot* remember names. but I did memorize 214 digits of pi once.
[ Parent ]
Or, to shorten your comment (3.00 / 6) (#329)
by Cro Magnon on Thu May 12, 2005 at 09:41:07 AM EST

He talks too much.
Information wants to be beer.
[ Parent ]
Good one (none / 0) (#338)
by vadim on Thu May 12, 2005 at 07:21:29 PM EST

Except I'd change it a bit: He talks too much about stuff not related to the main discussion.
--
<@chani> I *cannot* remember names. but I did memorize 214 digits of pi once.
[ Parent ]
I couldn't have said it better myself... (3.00 / 2) (#341)
by MichaelCrawford on Fri May 13, 2005 at 12:13:18 AM EST

... but I won't say why.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

You (none / 0) (#360)
by chia on Fri May 20, 2005 at 11:59:44 PM EST

seem to know just a bit too much about her...


Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. O Wilde
[ Parent ]
I should hope so! (none / 0) (#361)
by MichaelCrawford on Sat May 21, 2005 at 09:22:49 PM EST

I'm her husband, after all.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

degenerate. /nt (2.00 / 3) (#301)
by wooden bridge on Wed May 11, 2005 at 06:36:28 PM EST



Bee Effin' Dee. En Tee. (1.33 / 3) (#307)
by chacho on Wed May 11, 2005 at 07:41:53 PM EST



Well, there you have it (3.00 / 4) (#310)
by vadim on Wed May 11, 2005 at 08:31:11 PM EST

It's posted now. I'm wondering what exactly have you achieved with this, though.

A good discussion on moderation is certainly isn't. Most of the people here seem to be discussing you, and all the spam you posted, which is an achievement of some sort in itself. I think it must have broken some record.

Of course, that's not terribly surprising since the article was about you after all, and you expanded that by posting lots of comments whining about the huge effort you expended on writing it, and congratulating yourself.

IMO, this story has been a completely failure at generating useful discussion about what it was supposed to. However, it seems to have succeeded at at least two things: Being an useful article to link when people need to explain why they find you annoying, and it also seems to succeed as the biggest story with the highest amount of irrelevant comments posted in order to increase your pagerank. Maybe that was the point. That's a rather dubious honor, though.
--
<@chani> I *cannot* remember names. but I did memorize 214 digits of pi once.

Thank you for your submission. (none / 1) (#311)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed May 11, 2005 at 08:44:37 PM EST

Our customer service personnel will process your request in the order that it was received.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

How about (3.00 / 2) (#312)
by vadim on Wed May 11, 2005 at 08:49:19 PM EST

You stop hiding behind this "customer service personnel" and process it yourself?
--
<@chani> I *cannot* remember names. but I did memorize 214 digits of pi once.
[ Parent ]
Just the title will make a difference. (none / 0) (#323)
by Russell Dovey on Thu May 12, 2005 at 03:56:02 AM EST

Crawford was right when he said the title of this story is likely going to make many people do a double-take and think "wha?" when they read k5 or an rss feed.

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

What someone said at del.icio.us (none / 1) (#340)
by MichaelCrawford on Fri May 13, 2005 at 12:09:43 AM EST

When thay posted it:

awesome - unadultered flame, I love it


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

Your signature is beneath you (none / 0) (#316)
by vince1 on Thu May 12, 2005 at 12:32:02 AM EST

If you are open to suggestions Michael, I would change your signature. To see the string "fuck you" in the signature of every posting casts an image of adolescence, is somewhat annoying, and, I think, detracts from the image of credibility that I think you deserve with all the hard work you put into your articles. It think, with your creativity, you can easily find better ways to show that there are others who support you.

Well, yeah, you're right. (none / 0) (#317)
by MichaelCrawford on Thu May 12, 2005 at 01:23:34 AM EST

Sometimes I forget myself.

Behold:


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

To be honest, I like tilting at windmills. (none / 0) (#324)
by Russell Dovey on Thu May 12, 2005 at 03:57:13 AM EST

What's wrong with the tilting at windmills sig?

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

Eventually... (none / 0) (#339)
by MichaelCrawford on Fri May 13, 2005 at 12:08:06 AM EST

But for now, I'm going to use my diary.

Behold:


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


[ Parent ]

uh, that's only a little better. (3.00 / 3) (#327)
by the ghost of rmg on Thu May 12, 2005 at 08:15:44 AM EST

how about this:

Michael Crawford: Programmer for Hire.

as a non-troll, you don't really want a self-aggrandizing, confrontational sig. it makes you look crazy.


rmg: comments better than yours.
[ Parent ]

FOR THE RECORD (2.75 / 4) (#328)
by CAPS LOCK on Thu May 12, 2005 at 09:26:07 AM EST

YOU SEEM LIKE A STANDUP GUY, BUT YOU NEED THICKER SKIN.

MichaelCrawford, slow down (2.66 / 3) (#334)
by tert on Thu May 12, 2005 at 02:12:17 PM EST

Let me first say that I have read and enjoyed many of your articles in the past. It is in this context that I must say I am incredibly disappointed by this art icle. Analyzed for content, you might say that it is whiny and repetitive. Tha t is not my problem with it, though. My problem is that it doesn't make sense. It took me half an hour of researching to understand the context of your "ghost of rmg" quotes that you started the article out with. It turns out I am not al one, as the first followup to ghost of rmg's comments in the earn high article, by CAIMLAS, displays the same confusion. Now I understand, this is an article about petty comments section flamewars. Yo, listen up! If I wanted to read comments section flamewars, I'd read the friggin comments section! Compare this site to slashdot... You scroll down to the comments on slashdot and within seconds you're slapping your forehead wondering at the complete intellect vacuum. Or you scroll down to the comments on k5, and immediately you're like "that's so mean, that's not even true, wtf!!! oh right, a troll." The end effect is the same -- I don't read comments. Now, to put this in the positive perspective you're looking for. You're obviously well aware of the strengths of k5 as a way to spread a message and gain notoriety. These strengths are reflected, for example, in k5's pagerank on google.You're also obviously aware of k5's text ad program, and therefore of the tacitadmission by all k5ers that useful contet has a monetary value that is worth harvesting. So, why sweat the trolls? Their comments-section behaviour is confined to the low-value parts of the site. In the end, these positive k5 aspects come from the many untold thousands of people who visit the site on a regular basis. The tiny number of people who actually post comments contribute almost nothing to these benefits. They can contribute a valuable conversation, editorial advice, etc., but when they aren't doing that, just ignore them. They're irrelevant. It only becomes an issue if the story queue is overpowered by retards or retards get editor powers. This story got posted so the former is apparently not catastrophic yet, and the latter -- well -- that deserves a focused story on its own, rather than this barely followable rant. Carry on, - Greg

Well... (none / 0) (#337)
by Stick on Thu May 12, 2005 at 07:18:16 PM EST

Someone had to take over from mcgrew.


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
reposted metacommentary (2.40 / 5) (#342)
by disconcision on Fri May 13, 2005 at 01:22:15 AM EST

mother of CHrist in a sidecar with Freedom-Fcking-Fries on the side, kuro5hin has become depressing lately. it's pretty much the most spectacular (at the minimum, most vocal) example of an online 'community' failing, utterly, under every conceivable definition of the term.

reading the FP is like watching DEath in a kind of perpetual slow-motion, time dilation approaching infinity.

in my most terrible dreams I can see kuro5hin existing 5000 years from now, trashing ever so painfully, ever so perfectly, in a state of perpetual unmitigated agony.

it seems like it would be so beautiful if it could only die... but it never, ever, will.

Calm down Chief (2.88 / 9) (#344)
by creature on Fri May 13, 2005 at 04:45:19 PM EST

It's just a website.

I dip in and out of K5 and have done for years; like Penthouse, I read it for the articles. I also enjoy some of the comments. Occasionally I'll post but I'm more of a lurker and I don't care about the infighting and the politics. Point is, I have no idea why (if) K5 hates you. At a guess, it's because you're too wound up in telling us you're doing good things. It's far cooler to just produce good content.

I couldn't care less if you wanted to drive traffic to your site from your writings and live off AdSense. However, I don't like being reminded of it in every single article. I adore localroger's writing because he pops up occasionally, writes something that is both grammatically correct and interesting, and disappears again. The emphasis is on the writing, not on the person.

What can I tell you about localroger? He's got a background in computers, he used to play blackjack and win at it, and he's done stuff in the oil industry. I know these things because his articles are on these topics. What can I tell you about MichaelCrawford? Far more than I'd ever want to know. A wife named Bonita, a plan to build consultancy through good articles, you've got some mental health problems and a crappy cash flow, your wife's studying art, you've just moved to Canada, and so on and so on and so on. Yet most of what you write is in the geekier end of the spectrum - it's not about any of these things. The geekyness isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but I don't care about you. I care about what you have to say.

You write well and put a lot of effort into your articles. This is good. Demanding respect for it is bad. An opinion has to be earned. Stop going on about how you give to the community - ignore the trolls and just keep giving. Community on the web is a joke anyway. You've said yourself you're somewhat obsessive - try taking a step back and looking at K5. There's some smart people here, and there's some good content. But at the end of the day it's just a website. If you're addicted as you seem, you need to get clean. Spend less time here and more time with your wife. I think you'd both be happier.



IAWTP /nt (none / 0) (#354)
by skyknight on Sun May 15, 2005 at 09:14:06 AM EST



It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
3rd person (2.50 / 2) (#345)
by Highlander on Sat May 14, 2005 at 08:28:20 AM EST

Maybe you shouldn't talk in the 3rd person about yourself in a press release about a company that is basically yourself.

It might seem polite to do so at first, but it is the first thing I noticed. Also, if it is a press release, I don't really see why kuro5hin just has to publish it. Kuro5hin "editors" and voters are not paid to publish one story/day, so while it might make sense and be smart to write the press release this way, it is not the right way for kuro5hin. It would be ok if you somehow had convinced another writer to work from your press release or copy it. Freshmeat does this kind of stuff. Slashdot copies too, but not long articles, just short blurbs. But kuro5hin doesn't copy. You'd have to write it in the first person to match up to kuro5hins spirit.

Moderation in moderation is a good thing.

On Building Concensus in Kuro5hin. (2.50 / 2) (#356)
by OzJuggler on Mon May 16, 2005 at 04:06:52 AM EST

You say your articles are good. Well I'm sure you think your articles are bloody brilliant. Whether this is appreciated by k5 is a matter of CONCENSUS.

Concensus on the worthiness of an article is formed during voting. Voting is optional for account holders. Therefore the concensus is NOT representative of the readership of kuro5hin, and is drawn from a vocal minority.

A country's federal election is not generally open to foreigners, and one wonders why. In real life people are allowed to vote when it is considered that they have both an interest in the outcome and a loyalty to the host of the voting. Where is that analogy for a web forum like k5? How can we decide who is entitled to vote?
I suggest it should not be just any old rascal with a trolling account, or we end up with the status quo.

But then one wonders how new accounts earn the privilege of voting, and how voting is conducted. This has been thrashed around in k5 several times before, and I have nothing insightful to add to that right now. With due consideration perhaps, but not right now. (gee, there's a principle trolls would do well to follow.)

My point is that the only fair test of your allegation that your articles are super-worthy of the front page and should not ever have been struck down is to put your articles to a census - a vote by a clear majority of k5 account holders. Because if you decide to publish to kuro5hin, you are also prepared to accept the voting decision. It is not your choice. It is not MY choice. It is OUR choice - in aggregate concensus. You have found results thus far to be unacceptable, because of the trollish cretins that you refer to. If that is the case, and good material is going to waste, then let us change the kuro5hin system to allow better publishing outcomes.

Very few social problems have technological solutions. If we had better PEOPLE in this web site then we might get better articles (albeit infrequently). We will never be rid of trolls, but perhaps we can use technical and procedural changes to insulate good content from their grubby little claws.

I guess you could sum up this argument with the words of Martin Luther King :
"True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring."

OzJuggler. (joined in early 2001.)
"And I will not rest until every year families gather to spend December 25th together
at Osama's homo abortion pot and commie jizzporium." - Jon Stewart's gift to Bill O'Reilly, 7 Dec 2005.

it's "consensus" (none / 0) (#359)
by blue car on Fri May 20, 2005 at 10:55:14 AM EST

nt

[ Parent ]
Why Kuro5hin's Editors Need to Grow a Testicle | 357 comments (247 topical, 110 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest © 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!