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Chopped into timy peices: the "Fuck Natalee Holloway" hate mail

By UNITE in Meta
Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:30:49 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

A story entitled "Fuck Natalee Holloway" was posted to our site a few days ago.

It is already the 2nd highest-ranked link on a Google search for "natalee".

Searching for her full name shows her official missing persons site 1st and our link as 2nd.

As such, the administration at K5 has received more hate mail than ever before.

Members have demanded that it be published in its near entirety, so here are all email responses received to date.


Subject: (no subject)
From: Anonymous
Date: 07/06/2005 12:33 AM

You are a fool and short sighted.  The publicity in the Natalee Holloway case heightens the awareness of all of us...perhaps we can take precautions with our teens, learn some new investigative techniques or even just use it as a cautionary tale.  I understand the inequity of the news stories as you have expressed...but doesn't ANY story like this make us ALL more aware and even you have to admit that countless programs and aids generate from each case like this.  Do the names John Walsh or Mark Klass ring a bell?  Both these parents have gone on to form foundations that assist families and law enforcement in cases like this.  If my child were missing I wouldn't care WHERE that help originated from and I would be thanking the Beth Twitty's, the John Walshes, and the Mark Klaas's...their personal tragedies have inspired many to help and perhaps prevent these crimes from happening in the first place, improve prosecutions etc.
Subject: your actionable website
From: John Fahs
Date: 07/06/2005 03:43 PM

I am writing to inform you that i find your website, specifically the "fuck natalee holloway" piece, unacceptable. I request that you remove this horrible travesty at once, as it is an affront to decent people everywhere and totally unprotected by the first amendment. I am so disgusted, I do not have the words to tell you what a low opinion I have of you for allowing this garbage. I think a formal complaint to the FCC and other legal authorities is in order.

Subject: Natalee Holloway Case
From: Kelly Chronister
Date: 7/06/2005 05:32 PM

I just want to say "No Fuck who ever is gbd".... You are a heartless individual.... Didn't  your Mother ever tell you...

"If you don't have anything nice to say.... then don't say anything at all"..

In your own words...

YOU ARE A HEARTLESS BASTARD.......

Subject: FUCK YOU, YOU FUCKING FUCK
From: Elizabeth Anderson Bell
Date: 07/06/2005 08:02 PM

The "person" who wrote the "Fuck Natalee Holloway" story is a waste of human skin and bones...I hope and pray that someone in their family gets chopped into timy peices and left on their doorstep so they can smell the rotting flesh of a loved one...better yet, I hope they die today.

Wishing the worst for you and your shitty website...

Subject: What IS WRONG WITH CARING ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE
From: Anonymous
Date: 07/06/2005 08:57 PM

You should be happy that Natalee's Mom cares for her child.

Their is many child and yes adults missing every day but you should not voice a bad word about that mom who cares so much.Do you have love in your heart.What would make a person talk that way. Where is your love do you have family do you care for them I pray that you do. I hope that Natlee's mom want see what you wrote but I will be a voice for her and say what ever it takes mom do what you have to to make things better for you and your family.What do you want this mom to do give up. Would you want someone to give up on you.What's up with you. I hope that the lord will have mercy on you for saying that trying to hurt that mom. I 'm a mom to and I would do the some for my children

Subject: (no subject)
From: James Phillips
Date: 07/07/2005 12:07 AM

You're a jerk and a moron...go to Aruba and disappear.....PLEASE!

Have a good day,

                            James

Subject: fuck who?
From: Danny Perdew
Date: 07/07/2005 02:30 PM

I think you must be the scum of the earth to post such stories about natalie.... trashy!
I support the the family in every way. It's not cool to talk so bad about someones loss. They probably did kill her and papa judge told them how to destroy any evidence Fuck ARUBA!

Subject: ???
From: jirwin1
Date: 07/07/2005 08:04 PM

I can't believe you would allow such filth and arrogance on your website. I'm referring to the inappropriate manner in which your writer is speaking of Natalee Halloway.  The language you allow is very inappropriate and you give a bad name to the internet in general.

Unfortunately, I'm writing this from a friends email so don't bother sending anything back as I won't get it.  You do however, need to clean up your website - it's nothing but FILTH!!!

Subject: Poor Form
From: --- ----
Date: 07/07/2005 10:08 PM

I am the mother of three.  I am also a victim of rape crimes.  I am lucky to be alive.  I think that the 'fuck Natalee Holloway' statement was very poor form.  Shame on you.  Why don't we hear about other missing children and people to the degree of Natalee Holloway?  Easy answer.  Her parents pulled out all the stops.  They are going to use everything available to find her.  Other missing people or children?  Simple.  Their parents or spouses did not use every possible path to find them.  The media is not that bias. A crime is a crime.  If it was my child you could be very sure that I would not only go local and state...I would contact Senators, and world media, and attract as much attention as I could until my child was found.  We have much more help in finding missing loved ones now days.  Its not just flyer's and milk cartons anymore.  A truly desperate and devoted parent would not stop at local and state help; it would go much farther than that.  I believe whoever wrote that not only is not a parent, but has never been a victim of a violent crime.  Shame on you for allowing such stupidity to grace your pages.  I feel Mrs. Holloway's pain and hope that justice is found for her no matter what the cost.  You can't put a price on something like this.  So to the man that wrote that.."Fuck You!!"  I hope you get an eye opener and feel the same pain some day.  Then let's hear what you have to say.

Subject: God bless natalee
From: Anonymous
Date: 07/08/2005 07:48 AM

[No text in the email body]

Update [2005-7-8 22:22:44 by rusty]:

Subject: NO BALLS!
From: Anonymous
Date: 07/08/2005 7:18 pm

Yeah if you had any balls you'd have signed your name. Whatever freak go find some other tree hugging problem to perseverate on! Or shall I say racially driven chip on your shoulder story!

Subject: (no subject)
From: Same Anonymous
Date: 07/08/2005 7:18 pm

Oh by the way NO BALLS that was in regards to youre story on Natalee!

Update [2005-7-9 23:22:16 by rusty]:

Subject: FIRE YOUR ROTTEN "JOURNALIST" WHO WROTE SUCH AN UGLY ARTICLE
From: Nita
Date: 07/09/2005 1:35 pm

ABOUT NATALEE HOLLOWAY...FIRE HIM OR HER.

ALSO, HOW COULD YOU LET THIS STORY GO OUT USING THE WORD "FUCK."... WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?

I WILL MAKE SURE I NEVER READ YOUR STUFF AGAIN...AND IF I MOVE TO YOUR CITY I'LL WORK TO PUT YOU OUT OF BUSINESS.

Subject: (no subject)
From: Jim Fennell
Date: 07/09/2005 5:42 pm

How does it feel to be in the sewer?I think a pig or a chicken has more right to precious oxygen than your group. If you don't see that the reason that Natalee Hollway gets so much publicity that only reinforces the fact that you and your group of creeps are as dumb as they come. It possibly involves foreign government corruption stupid--that's why.

Crawl back into your holes and let decent people be delivered from your presence.

Classdven

Update [2005-7-10 12:58:10 by rusty]:

Subject: I like the natalee story
From: Harm Aarts
Date: 07/10/2005 10:12 am

Hi,

Perhaps to counter balance all the hate mail, but I really liked reading the "fuck natalee holloway" story. It was to the point, clear, bold and most importantly true. I will keep visiting your site!

With kind regards,

Harm

And I think that's a good place to stop. --R

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Login

Poll
If you came across the FNH article and didn't know about K5
o You'd write a nasty gram to Rusty without reading the article 4%
o You'd write a nasty gram to help@k5 after reading the article 0%
o You'd agree with the story and send positive feedback 32%
o You'd disagree with the story and send negative feedback 2%
o You wouldn't send any feedback in any circumstance 33%
o You'd bitch about it on another website and link to the K5 article 7%
o You'd kill yourself 9%
o You'd go find Natalee yourself 9%

Votes: 141
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Google
o Fuck Natalee Holloway
o natalee
o full name
o received
o demanded
o Also by UNITE


Display: Sort:
Chopped into timy peices: the "Fuck Natalee Holloway" hate mail | 640 comments (607 topical, 33 editorial, 3 hidden)
I had to do this placeholder story shit (3.00 / 7) (#1)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 02:12:32 PM EST

Otherwise we'd never get to see any of it.

Hopefully driph or physall or rusty or someone can copy and paste everything into this article and we'll post it up.

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~

Update (none / 1) (#23)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:41:15 PM EST

R-dawg posted some nastygrams sent to him and help@

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]
you would think that events in london (3.00 / 8) (#6)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 03:42:08 PM EST

would mellow the interest

if not, that's even sadder that so many would still be interested in the latest white girl in jeopardy story of the month


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

she is pretty hot though (2.25 / 4) (#49)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:27:03 PM EST

hi res picz

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]
sorry, i don't like white chicks (nt) (1.50 / 2) (#68)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:55:44 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
RACIST! (none / 1) (#74)
by Sgt York on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:07:15 PM EST


There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

maybe my dick is racist (none / 1) (#102)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:24:02 PM EST

because it doesn't get hard around them


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Butter face. [n/t] (none / 0) (#287)
by kcidx on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:45:57 AM EST



[ Parent ]
I do believe (none / 1) (#239)
by icenine on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 11:26:00 PM EST

the events in london were a gift from god to relieve us from the media's endless tsunami of coverage of the Natalie story.

[ Parent ]
the hits just keep coming (3.00 / 7) (#8)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 03:51:20 PM EST

http://www.kuro5hin.org/pages/stats/usage_200507.html

Top 20 of 12192 Total Search Strings

# Hits Search String

1 4105 14.12% natalee holloway

  1. 462 1.59% kuro5hin
  2. 408 1.40% libby hoeler
  3. 371 1.28% how to make sushi
  4. 277 0.95% fuck
  5. 271 0.93% sex
7 188 0.65% natalee
  1. 176 0.61% nick berg
  2. 165 0.57% wep cracker
  3. 141 0.49% hieronymus bosch
  4. 128 0.44% k5
  5. 109 0.38% stop credit card offers
  6. 105 0.36% g8
  7. 105 0.36% naked
  8. 103 0.35% kuroshin
  9. 103 0.35% pimp my web page
  10. 91 0.31% optout
  11. 81 0.28% google print
  12. 80 0.28% the power of nightmares
  13. 76 0.26% brimful of asha


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

103 for "pimp my webpage"? (3.00 / 2) (#286)
by DoorFrame on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:17:11 AM EST

Congrats everyone, kuro5hin has link number 9 when you search google for pimp my webpage.  Now that's the real accomplishment.

[ Parent ]
MSN search (none / 0) (#603)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Sat Jul 30, 2005 at 02:16:23 PM EST

The article is currently 19th (2nd page) on MSN search.

[ Parent ]
Sweet (none / 1) (#10)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:15:29 PM EST

Added a handful of emails at around 16:15 EST !

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
title that way on purpose (3.00 / 3) (#13)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:21:39 PM EST

I'm not sure if it was you who changed the title, but the misspellings are a quote, so I left them on purpose. It's back now, so maybe you noticed.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Yeah (none / 1) (#15)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:24:49 PM EST

Explanation

So are these all to help@k5, or are these just rusty@k5, i.e. are these all that driph was referring to?

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]

One to me (none / 0) (#17)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:27:12 PM EST

The one I posted before, "your actionable website," was to me. The rest were to help@.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Shit, mate (none / 0) (#19)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:36:53 PM EST

I fixed formatting etc. looked good so I moved to vote and its mucked again.  If you get a chance clean 'er up :)

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]
my favorite line (2.87 / 8) (#18)
by 1318 on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:28:44 PM EST

"You do however, need to clean up your website - it's nothing but FILTH!!!"

"So then, why don't you die?"-Antisthenes

Man (3.00 / 5) (#20)
by mcc on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:39:02 PM EST

If K5's going to get hit with labels like that, it should at least do something to deserve it. Maybe LocalRoger can post some more of his murder-fetish erotica or something?

---
Aside from that, the absurd meta-wankery of k5er-quoting sigs probably takes the cake. Especially when the quote itself is about k5. -- tsubame
[ Parent ]
Just what I was thinking (none / 1) (#136)
by localroger on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:09:41 PM EST

Actually, I think someone should send that person a link to my novel page. The Mitigator Strike would have been even better, but you 'tards voted that one down ;-P

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
hey good to see you again (none / 0) (#348)
by Jason the Mathematical Solo Guitarist on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 06:22:07 AM EST

i forgot i took you off my AIM list. lol. apologize now and i'll put you back on.

In a math sense this sig is just applied group theory: what we are talking about is the decomposition of the direct product of 2 irreducible representations of the rotation group into a direct sum of irreducible representations
[ Parent ]

ROR (2.62 / 8) (#21)
by LilDebbie on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:39:43 PM EST

The FNH article is #1 on google search for Natalee Holloway!

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

ZOMFG (3.00 / 4) (#28)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:51:06 PM EST

This can get better, or worse.

Damn, which one is it.

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

BETTER (3.00 / 7) (#34)
by LilDebbie on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:03:45 PM EST

Quick, someone leak this to slashdot.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
Yeah (3.00 / 2) (#37)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:06:58 PM EST

That's the next logical step of course

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

And Natalie bis, there we go (3.00 / 3) (#40)
by nkyad on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:17:42 PM EST

With a second "Fuck Natalee Holloway" in the Front Page, soon we'll have both the first and second spot.

Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run


[ Parent ]
Natalee Holloway Aruba Natalee Holloway (3.00 / 6) (#60)
by thekubrix on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:42:04 PM EST

Natalee Holloway

Aruba

Natalee

Holloway

</ror>

[ Parent ]

I think the reason K5 gets high pagerank ... (none / 0) (#237)
by rpresser on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 11:17:33 PM EST

is because there are so many other sites out there that have K5 feeds on their pages.

Googling for "Fuck Natalie Holloway", about 40% of the results had the first sentence of the K5 article displayed right there in the results page.

One nice exception was this, from a like-minded person who appears not to know of K5.
------------
"In terms of both hyperbolic overreaching and eventual wrongness, the Permanent [Republican] Majority has set a new, and truly difficult to beat, standard." --rusty
[ Parent ]

hah! (none / 1) (#242)
by fleece on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 11:57:54 PM EST

who would've thunk it. I notice K5 is still under the google radar for "fuck london bomb victims" but there's bound to be something in the queue soon to remedy that too. After all, K5 is an affront to decent people everywhere



I feel like some drunken crazed lunatic trying to outguess a cat ~ Louis Winthorpe III
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia (none / 1) (#256)
by unknownlamer on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 03:26:33 AM EST

The story is linked from the Wikipedia entry on Natalee Holloway.

I think that's what got it to number one.



--
<vladl> I am reading the making of the atomic bong - modern science
[ Parent ]
Reagan hatemail (none / 0) (#22)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:39:56 PM EST

Member this one?  >

Why I Want To Fuck Ronald Reagan || kuro5hin.org
Why I Want to Fuck Ronald Reagan is written in the style of a psychological
assessment of why Reagan would make a good Presidential candidate. ...
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/6/6/10335/58310 - 108k

I'm guessing we didn't get much hatemail on that one.

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~

It's official! (2.72 / 11) (#24)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:42:21 PM EST

We're teh best trolls yuo can find anywhere.  Even when we're not trying to!

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
Also (3.00 / 12) (#29)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:51:56 PM EST

We give a bad name to the internet in general.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Uh (3.00 / 5) (#30)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:53:13 PM EST

Hopefully not all the Internets.

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]
Someone (none / 0) (#31)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 04:59:30 PM EST

should sig you guys on that little bit of banter.

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

Fuck it I'll do it <nt> (none / 0) (#35)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:04:41 PM EST


Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

nah. (none / 0) (#36)
by spooked on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:06:35 PM EST

i got it

Seriously.
[ Parent ]
damn (none / 0) (#38)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:12:02 PM EST

you snake you

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

ahh well (none / 0) (#80)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:25:52 PM EST

I put it here anyway...

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

Oh, great. (none / 0) (#32)
by jd on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:01:32 PM EST

What, precisely, does this topic achieve, other than to take one fairly consolidated pile of crap and spread it over as wide an area as possible?

Personally, I've begun to think that the new avian flu has somehow combined with Mad Cow Disease and turned the majority of people on the planet into frothing lunatics. Hmmm. No, I take that back. They've always been frothing lunatics.

Precisely because that is what most people are, I would expect those with slightly higher levels of intelligence, awareness and education to choose to live differently. Or, for those Christians on this board, God didn't give you a brain so you could sit on it, even if yours is slightly squishy.

Farming (3.00 / 4) (#92)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:06:35 PM EST

What, precisely, does this topic achieve,other than to take one fairly consolidated pile of crap and spread it over as wide an area as possible

There is no other way to grow flowers than to spread the bullshit around liberally.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

There are a few times... (none / 0) (#168)
by jd on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:38:02 PM EST

...when mass extinctions are a good idea. Well, although I personally don't agree with this particular line of action, this is a community board and therefore what the community wants will be what the community gets.

Having said that, I feel it IS a good idea for people to detox from emotional highs, and to the extent blogging/posting on K5 will do that, then this is a good thing to do.

Further, this won't alter my feelings towards K5 and I urge those other who aren't keen on these sorts of stories to hang around too. This IS a community board, which means there WILL be a diversity of opinion. And that is a Good Thing. The lack of diversity is what is killing most areas of the media. Enjoy your differences.

And, lastly, while I'm still planning on doing some seriously sick and twisted mods for the Scoop engine, I might now be forced to make them totally evil, sick and twisted. (The difference is that the former hurts the brain, where as the latter converts your brain to a smoothie.)

[ Parent ]

I want (none / 0) (#208)
by Redcatblack on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:50:40 PM EST

a banana smothie kthx

[ Parent ]
That's good (none / 0) (#228)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:36:12 PM EST

We have a long and glorious history of evil code. If you don't believe me, take a look at what you can do in the op template processing stuff. That is evil. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
well, if you really wanna know (none / 0) (#94)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:09:58 PM EST

What, precisely, does this topic achieve, other than to take one fairly consolidated pile of crap and spread it over as wide an area as possible? Makes me laugh uncontrollably each time I read one more the emails...?

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

UNITE is part of Rusty's inner circle? IHBT (3.00 / 2) (#33)
by nlscb on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:03:35 PM EST


Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange

No (3.00 / 4) (#86)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:56:11 PM EST

He just posted the story stub. Once I actually went and looked at the email, I thought it was a good idea, so I filled in the content.

Hey, it's Friday. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

and by monday (3.00 / 2) (#93)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:07:58 PM EST

You'll have some more hate mail.

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

Cool (3.00 / 4) (#97)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:14:14 PM EST

Y'know, it's always been disappointing that we don't get more hate mail. I know everyone assumes that I must be flooded all the time, but really it's never been the case. Lots of spam, but that's just bots. I can't remember another article ever that's garnered more than one or two emails of any kind, and even those are rare. Though they don't tend to be any more coherent than these were.

I felt like this was a special enough event to warrant commemorating.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Right on (none / 0) (#104)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:32:03 PM EST

And thanks for allowing it.

Made my day so much better, you have no idea what a shitter it's been.

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

Isn't hate mail just so cute? (none / 0) (#130)
by localroger on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:07:01 PM EST

Every once in awhile democraticunderground.org posts a hate mail roundup. Since most of their hate mail comes from freeper type folks those are pretty hilarious.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
you think that's bad... (none / 0) (#215)
by Delirium on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:13:31 PM EST

The hate-mail the freepers themselves get over at Free Republic is 10 times more hilarious.

[ Parent ]
You should try a better domain name... (none / 1) (#324)
by mikael_j on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 06:48:56 PM EST

Like back when I registered alqaeda.net and posted the anarchist's cookbook and the terrorist's handbook on the site, lots of interesting hatemail from @aol.com...

/Mikael
We give a bad name to the internet in general. - Rusty
[ Parent ]

"The media is not that bias. " (3.00 / 9) (#39)
by spooked on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:16:52 PM EST

I can't stop laughing. I just can't.

Seriously.
funnily enough (none / 0) (#77)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:11:16 PM EST

neither can I.

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

Straight out of the Teen Moms section (none / 0) (#271)
by destroy all monsters on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 06:24:01 AM EST

on the Misanthropic Bitch's site. Ah, glory.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]
I'd just like to tell you all (3.00 / 13) (#41)
by idol worshipper on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:18:10 PM EST

how proud I am to be a member of this here online community! ^_^

When you see an opportunity (3.00 / 4) (#43)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:20:10 PM EST

You gotta git er done.

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]
Sing it brother! (3.00 / 3) (#44)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:20:34 PM EST

I'm proud, were loud, obnoxious trolling motherfuckers, yeah.

Sing it back now!

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

--> 20721 (none / 1) (#46)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:21:35 PM EST

I can't understand what you wrote cause you used weird DDR terminology all over.

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]
solly guy ; ) <nt> (none / 0) (#47)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:23:53 PM EST


Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

Hell yes. (3.00 / 2) (#117)
by oneiromancer on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:49:26 PM EST

The #1 search result on google, outraged hate mail from upstanding and concerned citizens.. yep, being hated is far more fun than being liked.

Wait, I was never liked... at least I got a new sig out of this. ;)


'You are a heartless bastard.......' -- K5 hate mail
[ Parent ]
just out of curiosity (none / 0) (#432)
by Redemption042 on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 01:20:55 AM EST

Are you the same oneiromancer of drod fame?

[ Parent ]
No. (none / 0) (#453)
by oneiromancer on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:35:42 PM EST

Just a random bastard with a similar handle. I used it IRL before I took it online, only to find that several hundred people had thought of it before me.

Originality is just one of the many virtues I don't possess.

'You are a heartless bastard.......' -- K5 hate mail
[ Parent ]
-1 (2.20 / 10) (#42)
by diocletian on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:18:32 PM EST

This should be viewed as an attempt to further pervert this site into a troll-playground for childish wankery.
_____________________________________

simple empathy is my motivation ~ circletimessquare

Get a life (2.66 / 6) (#45)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:20:39 PM EST

Dork.

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]
If culture-jamming is the consensus fine, but..... (none / 0) (#306)
by Sarcasmooo on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 03:29:42 PM EST

....that kind of trolling mob-rage is focused outwardly. When someone in the K5 comments can get scored higher than the parent just by saying, "Get a life...dork" in retort, I think I've seen enough.

Maybe this isn't a new trend, I probably should've been more active or at least read comments more in the 3 or 4 years I've been lurking. I just always thought the stories were very good, and I don't always have a lot of time to read the discussions below them.

Anyway, yeah, knowing that 'troll-the-planet' is the new motto is strange enough. But if the plan is to troll and flame our own members until dissent is minimized.....well I guess I have to stick around now. Asshole.

--

I'm Anti-Christ


[ Parent ]
ROR (3.00 / 10) (#48)
by Sgt York on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:25:11 PM EST

Pervert this site into a "troll-playground for childish wankery"?

What site do you think you're posting to again?

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

You make a compelling argument. -nt (none / 1) (#50)
by diocletian on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:27:30 PM EST


_____________________________________

simple empathy is my motivation ~ circletimessquare
[ Parent ]

"troll-playground for childish wankery" (2.66 / 6) (#51)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:28:06 PM EST

dude, that's the entire internet

what in your mind tells you that there is some sort of magical standard of behavior that never existed, and never will, in any online forum where anonymity exists?

personally, i appreciate the rude honesty that internet forums represent

but if you like your quiet placid lies told with a fake smile, then you need to stick to the real world, you're not suited for the internet

now cover your eyes and ears and run along now, weak brittle ivory tower prude


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Rude honesty (none / 1) (#55)
by diocletian on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:33:53 PM EST

is different than this pointless "look at me, look at me" crap. I don't have a problem with the FNH article itself, and I too appreciate rude honesty, as it does often allow us to get past the bullshit --- when talking about something important. This is not important. This is troll fodder.
_____________________________________

simple empathy is my motivation ~ circletimessquare
[ Parent ]

it's not honorable, but it IS important (3.00 / 2) (#105)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:32:40 PM EST

it gives voice to what everyone is thinking but no one has the courage to voice:

flavor-of-the-month white girl in jeop story after flavor-of-the-month white girl in jeop story, with updates every hour

it's racist, sensationalistic yellow journalism and it opportunistically cannibalizes real grief

and it's important that someone says so

it just isn't honorable because someone has really died

like everyone secretly hating someone talking on their cell phone in a quiet room, telling him "hey shut up!" isn't honorable, but it's important, because everyone is thinking the same thing

it's a tragedy she's dead

and it's a different tragedy that we have to hear about her so much: how does that help her or her family?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I agree with you (none / 0) (#124)
by diocletian on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:58:06 PM EST

on every point. I voted +1 FP for the FNH article itself --- but this "post the hate-mail" because it's funny is just going to be a front-page troll. However, the majority has spoken. And some of the letters are pretty fucking funny. But let me ask you this: once this gets front paged, and gets enough hits to be high up on google again, and we get more hatemail... will you vote up another meta-article with the new hatemail?
_____________________________________

simple empathy is my motivation ~ circletimessquare
[ Parent ]

It's really a different thing, you know (3.00 / 3) (#174)
by localroger on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:48:59 PM EST

I voted FNH to the FP because it was passionate and correct as well as inflammatory. While it wasn't great writing on a par with A Modest Proposal or Yet Another Effort, it was well targeted and I agreed with both the sentiment and intent.

I voted this to the FP because it beautifully illustrates how certain pinheaded individuals react when confronted with something like the FNH story. It's illustrative of how you will be received if you are right in a way that is also offensive. It's not just that the mails are funny, it's a useful lesson a lot of people could use.

The two stories are FP material for entirely different reasons. Thus, there really isn't much threat of the recursive meta implosion you fear. I'd personally suggest that additional hate mails should be posted as comments beneath this story; that's what it's for and about.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

Now that (none / 1) (#189)
by diocletian on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:07:50 PM EST

is a good reason for why this deserves to be FP, or even exist at all. Satisfying UNITE's desire for attention was not, so I voted it down. But now, I would vote differently.
_____________________________________

simple empathy is my motivation ~ circletimessquare
[ Parent ]

That is why I posted them (3.00 / 2) (#212)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:08:15 PM EST

I filled the actual emails in to this story for exactly the reasons localroger describes. If they weren't so perfect for just that, it wouldn't have happened. But this happened to be the perfect storm of crap.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Oh noes! Sensitivity time! (none / 1) (#232)
by localroger on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:45:06 PM EST

We are a bit *cough* cautious about the word "storm" down here in Louisiana right now. You should find a less inflammatory term to describe the phenomenon, at least until Dennis blows over.

*chuckle* *snort* *ROFLMAO*

PS we really are battening down the hatches here, but make all the hurricane jokes you want. It's a free quadrant and all.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

Welcome Citizen to the K5 Economic Free Zone (none / 0) (#233)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:51:53 PM EST

"Your only civil right is to die instantly. Would you like to exercise your civil right now?"

Seriously though, batten down and stay safe. Category three, it looks like. Something tells me you guys are going to have a rough summer.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

fuck Louisiana too (n/t) (none / 0) (#299)
by Delirium on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:45:43 PM EST



[ Parent ]
someone should write a poll: (none / 0) (#304)
by circletimessquare on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:56:04 PM EST

how many years until new orleans becomes new venice?

>1
>10
>100
>1,000

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Actually I think we will skip "Venice" (none / 1) (#320)
by localroger on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:50:31 PM EST

...and likely go straight to "Atlantis."

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
+1 for the same reason (3.00 / 9) (#109)
by Sigismund of Luxemburg on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:40:58 PM EST


ANONYMISED
[ Parent ]
omg - awesome (3.00 / 6) (#52)
by insomnyuk on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:29:06 PM EST

"I think a formal complaint to the FCC and other legal authorities is in order." - John Fahs

Now that would be a COUP.

The illogic of these emails is stunning.

but doesn't ANY story like this make us ALL more aware and even you have to admit that countless programs and aids generate from each case like this.  Do the names John Walsh or Mark Klass ring a bell?  Both these parents have gone on to form foundations that assist families and law enforcement in cases like this.

By that logic, social do-gooders should intentionally kidnap or infect the children of the wealthiest and most powerful Americans, if only to spur an outpouring of goodwill. The ends justify the means!

And isn't it just amazing how many of these emails wish harm on the proprietor of the website and/or the author of the article? People are such unwashed, blatant hypocrites.  Uncivil, too.

---
"There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism, and that is the impulse to punish the man with a superior capacity for happiness." - H.L. Mencken

Rusty - Fix your system before you get sued!!! (1.57 / 19) (#53)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:31:14 PM EST

This place is very hostile. Reminds me of what happened to the LA Times.

A person is missing and most likely murdered. And you idiots vote through the parent article to this one with her name and fuck in the title knowing full well that K5 will carry it up the google search results??? Do you not realize that her parents could sue everyone who voted it throught and Rusty too? You have hurt them. Rusty would have to turn over all your ips...idiots!

Rusty, I think you need to change your system to do some "in the majority" weighting of votes that tracks voting history and weights the ones in the majority higher. That way, the whole system would get smarter instead of being dominated by 15 year-old boys who are getting ignored [rightly] by 15 year-pld girls.

are you a lawyer? <nt> (3.00 / 2) (#54)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:33:14 PM EST


Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

Does it show? nt (1.50 / 2) (#56)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:34:31 PM EST



[ Parent ]
no (3.00 / 6) (#62)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:48:17 PM EST

It would be quite hard to sue EVERYONE that voted this up, given the different countries and privacy issues and whatnot.

I'll buy anyone who trys to a beer...

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

Um (none / 0) (#72)
by Sgt York on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:03:39 PM EST

I'm suing. Yeah. I have declared my intent, and I am suing. The...uh....paperwork is ... uh... in the mail! yeah, it's in the mail. Sweet.

OK, that's out of the way. Now, where's my beer?

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

where you at yo<nt> (none / 0) (#73)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:04:19 PM EST


Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

Other side of that big, salty lake (none / 0) (#75)
by Sgt York on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:08:47 PM EST

You're in the UK, correct?

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

well yea (none / 0) (#76)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:10:05 PM EST

Give me a yell if you ever visit though.

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

Will do (none / 0) (#154)
by Sgt York on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:25:29 PM EST

Seems like it's a possibility, too. Well, kind of close anyway. My boss is talking about a collaboration at U Southampton sometime over the next few months. If it works out, I'm going to throw my name in there for the trip.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

Sue them for what? <NT> (3.00 / 3) (#57)
by kero on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:35:53 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Mental harm. nt (1.37 / 8) (#58)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:37:09 PM EST



[ Parent ]
maybe they should sue Fox News/CNN/MSNBC [nt] (3.00 / 6) (#64)
by insomnyuk on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:50:20 PM EST



---
"There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism, and that is the impulse to punish the man with a superior capacity for happiness." - H.L. Mencken
[ Parent ]
mental harm? (3.00 / 5) (#66)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:54:06 PM EST

are you serious?

their daughter is dead and you think that internet trolls is going to be their concern?

what are you smoking moron?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

mental harm, no. suing, maybe ... (none / 0) (#258)
by dougmc on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 03:35:03 AM EST

their daughter is dead and you think that internet trolls is going to be their concern?
Actually, while `mental harm' is a joke, the idea of them suing anybody even tangentally involved is not nearly so crazy.

Once they learn what really happened to their daughter (or eventually give up looking), they're not likely to just go back to their lives. They've already shown that they can manipulate the media, and they may start seeing if they can do the same thing to the legal system.

You don't actually need valid grounds to sue somebody -- you just do it. And it's usually cheaper to just give them some money than to defend yourself, even against a crazy claim, and so many people do this. Suing people (or at least threatening to do so) is often very profitable.

In this case, the parents may even try to justify their suit(s) by claiming that the K5 story and users diverted resources from the search and their daughter may have just been found if that hadn't happened. And they may justify it to themselves by saying that they're teaching us a lesson and this lesson may save somebody in the future. And of course, while we're being taught this lesson, they're raking in the cash.

This is all just conjecture, but it's certainly not impossible.

[ Parent ]

Re: mental harm, no. suing, maybe ... (none / 1) (#261)
by dougmc on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 03:51:28 AM EST

Sorry, I hit `post' instead of `preview', but I wasn't done ...

I suspect that there will also be a movie made of this. After all, a movie would 1) probably be watched by lots of people, including the people who sent the hate emails, 2) let even more people know about Natalee Holloway and what happened to her, and 3) make the parents a lot of money.

I'd think it would be a Lifetime movie, as it would fit their usual sorts of movies perfectly (innocent girl, bad man comes and does bad things to her, courageous parents pull all the stops to find her, etc.) but maybe it'll be even bigger than that. We shall see.

Now, I don't doubt for a moment that her parents would give all that money back to get their daughter back, but the truth is, if she's dead, all the money in the world isn't going to bring her back. But it may make them feel a bit better about how their `honoring' her memory and letting even more people know about her story, and maybe it'll help find out what really happened to her (if they haven't done so by then.) And getting all that money wouldn't be a bad thing to them either.

I guess it all boils down to what sort of people they are, and what's important to them (obviously finding their daughter alive is the most important, but beyond that I don't know.)

Since they've pulled out all of the stops (even stops that probably shouldn't have been pulled) to get everybody to try and find their daughter, it seems quite possible that they may try to clear the Intraweb of anything that says anything at all bad about her, and the usual ways of doing that are the DMCA (doesn't apply here) and by suing people (usually hitting them with SLAPP lawsuits.)

And of course, by even posting this, I've opened myself up to the same sort of suit. But I guess that's the price you pay ...

Personally, I hope they find her. It seems unlikely, but I imagine it's possible that she ran off with some guy and is hiding out somewhere ...

[ Parent ]

puh - lease (none / 1) (#70)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:56:36 PM EST

like they ever gonna read a story on kuro5hin again in their lives, oh wait thats if they even see this story or the one from which this spawned for that matter.

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

Mental harm? From K5? Can we pull this out? (3.00 / 7) (#79)
by nkyad on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:22:46 PM EST

Man, I am so calling my lawyer first thing on Monday, I have an enormous list of people here who caused me mental harm for some years now. Too bad they are probably only one or two persons, but then again maybe we can sue for multiple damages. Mental harm. Nice one.

Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run


[ Parent ]
You all are screwed (3.00 / 13) (#88)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:00:30 PM EST

Every damn member of this site has caused me some degree of mental harm for the last five years.

I think I have finally discovered Step Two.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

i'm so fucked (nt) (3.00 / 5) (#106)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:33:25 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
likewise (3.00 / 2) (#120)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:54:25 PM EST

I wonder, can you have a separate case for each one of my silenced accounts?

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

Does it matter? (3.00 / 3) (#235)
by nkyad on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 11:03:07 PM EST

1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1...+ 1 = 46 all the same.

Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run


[ Parent ]
you're telling me (none / 0) (#347)
by Jason the Mathematical Solo Guitarist on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 06:18:32 AM EST

and considering i've had over 50 accounts here, including 30 NIWS-lettering variants, i think i stand to lose the most out of all of us here. FUCK!!!!

In a math sense this sig is just applied group theory: what we are talking about is the decomposition of the direct product of 2 irreducible representations of the rotation group into a direct sum of irreducible representations
[ Parent ]

I should've seen this coming (3.00 / 2) (#114)
by nkyad on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:48:50 PM EST

I'm sorry I gave him ideas. We're all better prepare our checkbooks and settle this one out of court quickly because, man, I don't think there is one judge in the whole world who wouldn't see how right rusty is...

Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run


[ Parent ]
Actually. (none / 1) (#241)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 11:55:46 PM EST

That's a result of the satanic voodoo ritual I've performed specifically to cause you to fall into a homosexual coma and die.

Oh, and don't be suprised if CTS no longer posts, I had to sacrifice a goat.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]

Sacrifice a goat? (none / 0) (#405)
by Bernie Fsckinner on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 12:43:18 PM EST

Dont you mean sacrifice a goatse ? (.cx that is) ;)

[ Parent ]
Bah. (3.00 / 2) (#246)
by Shadowrose on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:44:41 AM EST

Have not! I rarely even -post-.

[ Parent ]
Especially you! (3.00 / 6) (#248)
by rusty on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:13:10 AM EST

Do you know how many nights I've been kept awake into the wee hours, tossing and turning, thinking "Who are these people? They have accounts, but they rarely even -post-!"

It was you. It was you all along.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Scotfree! (none / 0) (#326)
by Shadowrose on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 07:32:13 PM EST

Yes, yes it was. See? And now you don't have to worry about it. ^-^

If you know who I am, now I can't cause you any mental anguish!

[ Parent ]

I Encourage (3) people who rarely even post.[nt] (none / 0) (#365)
by warrax on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 03:20:06 PM EST



-- "Guns don't kill people. I kill people."
[ Parent ]
Yarr (none / 0) (#457)
by Lord Kestrel on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 11:02:22 PM EST

Glad to see I've been causing you lots of mental anguish for the years I've been registered here. Even though I have something like 2 posts to me name, I've made my mark on Rusty ;)

[ Parent ]
you are no lawyer (none / 1) (#59)
by insomnyuk on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:40:43 PM EST

since you don't provide any good standing for a legitimate libel or defamation claim against Rusty, the moderators, or any member of K5.

And dude, please, the 'you guys aren't getting any' troll is so 2001.

---
"There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism, and that is the impulse to punish the man with a superior capacity for happiness." - H.L. Mencken
[ Parent ]

are you serious? (3.00 / 9) (#61)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:44:21 PM EST

Do you not realize that her parents could sue everyone who voted it throught and Rusty too? You have hurt them. Rusty would have to turn over all your ips...idiots!

on the basis of what? are you that retarded?

white girl in jeopardy stories month after month, with updates every 2 hours is RACIST (name the last black girl in jeop/ asian girl in jeop story) and TIRED

it is a tragedy she is dead

but it is also a tragedy that we have to listen to white girl in jeopardy stories day in and out

you don't think there would be any backlash against this?

and so k5 is the perfect forum for expressing what everyone is thinking but no one else has the guts to say

bravo k5, bravo gbd


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

s/backlash/blacklash (3.00 / 1) (#65)
by thekubrix on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:52:47 PM EST

ror!

[ Parent ]
Legally Speaking... (3.00 / 4) (#63)
by Pluto on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 05:50:16 PM EST

Do you not realize that her parents could sue everyone who voted it throught and Rusty too?

Sir, you need to get a grip. This is not how legal reality works. What are the damages?

Meanwhile, I do think your idea about "weighted votes" has merit in terms of community building.
_______________________________________
Burgeoning technologies require outlaw zones... deliberately unsupervised playgrounds for technology itself. -- William Gibson
[ Parent ]

I am not a sir. nt. (2.00 / 6) (#83)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:44:05 PM EST



[ Parent ]
fuck I wish you'd posted that as topical<nt> (none / 1) (#78)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:15:48 PM EST


Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

You are all liable for your actions. (1.50 / 10) (#84)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:47:42 PM EST

You are liable for your actions. If a post here contributes to harm. You can expect you will get sued. Period. I will say thothing else on this subject.

Grow up boys.

[ Parent ]

Dear Max (3.00 / 14) (#125)
by localroger on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:00:22 PM EST

Kuro5hin.org is located in the United States of America. Here we have a wonderful legal principle called the "First Amendment." Although it is sometimes ignored, it asserts among other things that our legal system is not supposed to interfere with peoples' right to say what is on their minds, even when what they have to say is very offensive.

I myself advised changing the title of the FNH story, but I have to admit that it has probably gotten wide coverage precisely because of the F-bomb. (I don't have a lot of room to talk anyway, having posted "Why I Want to Fuck Ronald Reagan" on the occasion of his death.)

Unlike, say, Britain, where you can be sued and jailed for saying nasty things about people even when those nasty things are true, here in the USA our laws about slander and libel generally require that a prosecutor or plaintiff show "malicious intent," "reckless disregard for the truth" and "actual harm." Lack of either of those things means there is nothing actionable about what you said.

"Malicious intent" means you meant your words to hurt someone -- to incite a riot, say, or to ruin someone's reputation. If you can make the case that you said something without intending to cause the riot or status boo, then you're off the hook.

"Reckless disregard for the truth" is exactly what it sounds like. In the US, truth is an absolute defense against charges of slander and libel.

"Actual harm" means that in addition to intending to start a riot, you have to actually produce a riot. You have to not only intend to ruin someone's reputation, you have to succeed in some tangible way -- generally involving money or failed health.

We have another principle in our fine legal system you should be aware of. It is not possible to slander or libel a dead person. This is why it was just fine for me to recently post that SF author Robert Adams assaulted me back in the 1980's, even though I can't prove it. I can say he fucked pigs. I can't damage his reputation because under US law, a dead person doesn't have a reputation to damage.

Now the current article fails to be actionable on just about every count. Although it's inflammatory it's not really malicious toward Natalee; the author is clearly pissed off about the news coverage. The points of fact brought up in the article are factually correct. And the chances that this article would cause some actual harm are so vanishingly small as to be laughable. In short, this is a classic example of an inflammatory screed that floats blissfully in the pool of freedom established by the wisdom of our Founding Fathers. Ain't America grand?

PS since it seems to be a developing issue with you, I'll also mention that I'm 41.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

Being 41 (1.25 / 4) (#129)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:04:35 PM EST

Put aside the law and think of the morality. You are 41. Do you think what is happening here is nice for the family? You want your vote attached to this? You want your name on this?

 

[ Parent ]

A couple of points (3.00 / 5) (#157)
by localroger on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:27:47 PM EST

  1. The Holloways have used and abused the media pretty ruthlessly. As the FNH article itself mentions, this has pushed other missing persons clean off of the public radar. I understand why they want the attention, but you also have to be careful what you wish for. You might get it.

  2. +1FP. Check the list.

  3. I have no problem with the morality.


I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
And also (none / 1) (#140)
by joecool12321 on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:13:03 PM EST

Op-eds are basically unassailable, since it's merely a reflection of the author's opinion.

[ Parent ]
Slippery slope (1.80 / 10) (#142)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:16:07 PM EST

You guys are out of control. You are hurting people.

Stop it PLEASE.

Rusty, please stop this.

You are a coder. You have all the information to make this a wonderful system.

Use your intelligence. Prove that not every place in the internt has to fall to the lowest common denominator.

[ Parent ]

omg stop (3.00 / 5) (#158)
by Linux or FreeBSD on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:28:40 PM EST

"You are a coder. You have all the information to make this a wonderful system."
plz email me and tell me who you are. your comments are fucking hilarious.

flopster at gmail dot com

[ Parent ]
I think I have cause for action against maxhax (2.80 / 5) (#162)
by localroger on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:32:15 PM EST

I am laughing so hard I think a broke a rib. Clearly this was maliciously planned. I should sue, except, wait, it isn't illegal even if I have a stroke and die. Damn.

Anybody want to take odds on whether maxhax has ever seen the movie Airplane?

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]

You ever been in a cockpit before? (none / 0) (#203)
by Redcatblack on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:30:57 PM EST

Joey: No sir, I've never been up in a plane before.

Captain Oveur: You ever seen a grown man naked?

[ Parent ]
I've figured you out (none / 1) (#394)
by gavri on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 05:34:35 AM EST

Oh! The Irony!

All you K5 trolls, you have just been trolled by a master!
Damn! This is funny!

--
Blog Of A Socially Well Adjusted Human Being

[ Parent ]

Wow. (none / 1) (#188)
by Lanes Inexplicably Closed to Traffic on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:07:38 PM EST

I couldn't have done it better if I'd enumerated every reason why a flat file + assembler would be slower than a database here.

[ Parent ]
Even a stopped clock, twice a day, etc. /nt (none / 0) (#200)
by localroger on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:25:38 PM EST



I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
Amen. (none / 0) (#334)
by Not to be confused with Dixie on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 11:06:35 PM EST

Thank you for your thorough explanation. Not everyone understands the legalities of this issue (CLEARLY) and your piece is fabulous even though people are going to tell you that you are incorrect. Screw 'em. It humors me that people are so quick to tell us we'll all be sued with out actually studying or researching mass media law.
Girls who wear glasses have specs appeal...
[ Parent ]
Fascinating (3.00 / 8) (#91)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:04:42 PM EST

You claim below that you're a lawyer. I'd love to see the laws and precedent you're basing this idea on. Even just a hint or a "where to start looking" would be nice.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
You would be the precident, my friend. (1.88 / 9) (#95)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:13:22 PM EST

I am not a lawyer. I am 15.

I think you are laible for these people. I know if I was a member of the family and I saw that you were giving there trolls the ability to channel hate crime into the search results of my friends and family, I would sue you.

This is a very unfriendly place. Why do you not fix it????

[ Parent ]

Ah (3.00 / 19) (#98)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:16:17 PM EST

A 15 year old non-lawyer. That explains a lot.

For your future law career: you don't make precedent without an actual law to hang it on.

When you make your millions, don't forget that it was me who gave you your first entree into the fascinating legal world. You can reminesce about it in a witty anecdote during your Harvard commencement address.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

K5 bombing by vote (1.75 / 12) (#100)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:21:29 PM EST

Don't be so condecending. You are gulity of hate crime against women. You are allowing people to detach from responsibility for their actions.

What if your system instead of posting words, actually caused an explosion? Then maybe each user would feel some of the responsibilty they bare more clearly.

You have a loud voice Rusty, stop using it for hate.

Do some good in the world.

[ Parent ]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (3.00 / 6) (#107)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:39:12 PM EST

you're 15 right?

you don't understand this world

flavor-of-the-month white girl in jeop story after flavor-of-the-month white girl in jeop story, with updates every hour is morally outrageous: it's racist, sensationalistic yellow journalism and it opportunistically cannibalizes real grief

it's racist: when is the last time you heard of a black girl in jeop story or asian girl in jeop story?

meanwhile, poor little white girl's in jeop: how many sotires like that can you think of?

it's a tragedy she's dead

and it's a different tragedy that we have to hear about her so much: how does that help her or her family?

death with dignity: do you understand the concept?

what dignity does this poor dead girl have from becoming a media circus?

who are the real people who are committing crimes agains tthis woman?

us because we don't want her story splashed all over the news every hour? or the media like fox/ cnn/ etc?

we hate THE STORY we don't hate THE WOMAN

now, you have a lot of growing up to do

think about what i wrote, and get back to us when you are more mature and can think more concretely thourhg all of the issues, some of which you obviously don't understand


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

For the record. (1.75 / 4) (#110)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:42:32 PM EST

How old are you?

[ Parent ]
hey man, you volunterred your info (3.00 / 6) (#121)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:55:41 PM EST

i don't have to volunteer shit

now grow up


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Growing up... (1.33 / 6) (#126)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:00:49 PM EST

Attacking me for my age when you won't disclose your own age is pretty childish. I doubt you are older than I am physcially, though I can see many years of difference mentally, though not in a flattering direction.

[ Parent ]
Circle is (3.00 / 3) (#134)
by joecool12321 on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:09:27 PM EST

at least 15, since circ's been around longer than I have.

[ Parent ]
We have all obviously been trolled (3.00 / 2) (#186)
by Redcatblack on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:05:38 PM EST

By a 15 year old.

GG

[ Parent ]
Is it really being trolled (3.00 / 3) (#194)
by MrHanky on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:12:13 PM EST

when we enjoy it?


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]
I find it (3.00 / 5) (#204)
by Redcatblack on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:32:29 PM EST

Mentally abusive, I might sue.

[ Parent ]
I'm masochistic (3.00 / 4) (#209)
by joecool12321 on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:52:35 PM EST

I'm glad it's free!

[ Parent ]
hi, i'm a sadist (3.00 / 3) (#302)
by circletimessquare on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:41:00 PM EST

now bend over

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
We already knew that, cts. [nt] (none / 0) (#342)
by BJH on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 01:45:21 AM EST


--
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

[ Parent ]
I thought from the start it was a troll (1.50 / 2) (#404)
by HollyHopDrive on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 12:11:10 PM EST

but tbh, I'm no longer entirely sure. It really does seem genuine. Even down to the clumsy sentences such as "encouraging people to detach responsibility from their actions" or some such. That's exactly how I would write when I was 15 and trying to sound erudite. Also that diary about the pen and destroying ideas - that's the kind of aggro my 15-year-old self would have understood on every level.

I feel bad for saying this, because I've been killing myself laughing following this, but if she really is a 15-year-old girl - and I actually believe that she is - let's all leave her alone, yeah? Think about what you were like when you were 15. At least her heart's in the right place.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

i'm over 15 (3.00 / 5) (#303)
by circletimessquare on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:44:43 PM EST

and under 105

my hair is between bald and long

i'm somewhere between 3' and 8' in height

my eye color is on the colorwheel

and i live somewhere around times square

is this a dating website? where's the chicks?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

hey moron (3.00 / 2) (#289)
by circletimessquare on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 11:17:22 AM EST

say you are 100% correct for arguments sake

what the fuck does any of this have to do with the points i was making

NOTHING

so listen to the fucking points again in the post above

or dismiss me because i won't divulge my age to a retarded 15 year old on the internet

your choice

have a nice day


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

wow cts (3.00 / 2) (#118)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:51:38 PM EST

that was some really good advice.

Hopefully that little bitch was paying attn.

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

it's "condescending" /nt (3.00 / 10) (#112)
by localroger on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:46:59 PM EST



I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
I Encourage (3) this level of meta-irony [nt] (3.00 / 5) (#275)
by esrever on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 07:27:29 AM EST



Audit NTFS permissions on Windows
[ Parent ]
And you're a moron (3.00 / 4) (#116)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:49:09 PM EST

But no, rusty IS NOT guilty of anything here, other than running a website whereby the users decide on what content exists therein.

Hate crimes against women you really are fucking thick aren't you.

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

HATE CRIME! (3.00 / 9) (#133)
by kitten on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:09:22 PM EST

Why do you have to turn this website into a house of hate, Rusty? Why?
mirrorshades radio - darkwave, synthpop, industrial, futurepop.
[ Parent ]
Sigged. [nt] (none / 1) (#146)
by mr strange on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:18:57 PM EST



intrigued by your idea that fascism is feminine - livus
[ Parent ]
you tell em! (none / 1) (#238)
by /dev/trash on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 11:25:58 PM EST

Why don't you build us a fake bomb.

---
Updated 02/20/2004
New Site
[ Parent ]
so it turns out (none / 1) (#156)
by joecool12321 on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:26:11 PM EST

television really IS rotting the minds of youth. Someone's watched too much Ally McBeal (or whatever is on TV these days)

[ Parent ]
What if... (3.00 / 14) (#213)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:10:31 PM EST

What if instead of posting that comment, you had actually taken a knife and stabbed me in the eye?

You murderer.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Hate crime (3.00 / 3) (#265)
by SlashDread on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:05:52 AM EST

You are seriously wrong.

The story is about Media, not about Natalee.
You -do- understand the difference right?
Suppose he wrote "Fuck the media"

Would not be truthfull, he probably enjoy's K5. So some media are cool. So he could have wrote:
"Fuck some media"

Now there is a compelling title no?

It is called a "metafor", ask your hot english teacher some day.

But as you still are way to lazy to ask dictionary.com, in the meantime, enlighten us please, where o WHERE does gbh write hate against wimmin?

Now in all of this damned terror attacks hype wave bullcrap, and rightwingged responsed with the loud calls for a Teh Hitler like leaderships, I seriously hate hate.
So I take hate speech seriously. I hate it. I fucking hate it.

But the article I AM reading says;
 "Now, before I get called a heartless bastard, let me hasten to point out that I agree that this story is tragic. Natalee's family and friends have doubtless been going through hell during this past month. I do hope that she can be recovered safe and sound"
And you DID read the article right?

And you go on; the sheep who voted for this story are teh evil!1! They will be sueueued.

Dude, can I please sue everyone who voted for Bush? Can I? Please? Can I motherfucking please with sugar on top.
You fucking stupid moron! Learn to think for your goddamn self! Learn about why anonimity is a GOOD thing! Learn about the dangers of one sided media!
In short, grow up fool!
Richard van Beers
Berkenrodelaan 3
1181 AH
Amstelveen
The Netherlands.
Born way back in 1965
aka "SlashDread"

[ Parent ]

Fuck yeah sing it Rusty - LiveK5 for peace (none / 1) (#274)
by destroy all monsters on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 06:35:22 AM EST

With your pipes of holocaustic doom no one will be spared teh ever lasting PEACE.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]
Sigged. [nt] (none / 0) (#329)
by BJH on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 08:42:02 PM EST


--
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

[ Parent ]
Oh noes Rusty you're LAIBLE!!!!11eleven (2.00 / 2) (#273)
by destroy all monsters on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 06:31:00 AM EST

aren't you teh least bit worried? omg!

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]
It's "precedent" /nt (none / 1) (#113)
by localroger on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:47:23 PM EST



I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
Hm... what is happening here? (3.00 / 4) (#224)
by Toshio on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:26:10 PM EST

  • maxhax: Rusty, I think you need to change your system to do some "in the majority" weighting of votes that tracks voting history and weights the ones in the majority higher. That way, the whole system would get smarter instead of being dominated by 15 year-old boys who are getting ignored [rightly] by 15 year-pld girls.
  • rusty: You claim below that you're a lawyer. I'd love to see the laws and precedent you're basing this idea on.
  • maxhax: I am not a lawyer. I am 15.

I just love the irony.

Thank you for your time.


--- To boldly invent more hot water ---
[ Parent ]
Xanga is where all the friendly people are (3.00 / 2) (#272)
by destroy all monsters on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 06:29:38 AM EST

feel free to join them there or alternatively to continue providing us comedy gold.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]
It really does make K5 look bad (3.00 / 9) (#115)
by localroger on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:48:53 PM EST

I mean, all these spelling and grammar errors are just embarrassing.

I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
I'm only giving this comment a 2 (none / 0) (#211)
by Aurochs on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:04:57 PM EST

because of the comments below it. In particular, localroger's excellent piece.

--
--
<ravuya> LIBERAL SOCIALIST MOTHERFUCKER PENGUINS ARE GOING TO EAT MY CAPITALISM
[ Parent ]
From the Mouths of Babes (3.00 / 2) (#222)
by calumny on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:24:13 PM EST

> Being dominated by 15 year-old boys. Kinky. I think there was also something about stamping out democracy and free speech at the behest of civil-suit wielding plutocrats?

[ Parent ]
Who in the world told people they control opinion? (none / 0) (#333)
by Not to be confused with Dixie on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:58:00 PM EST

I am very astounded by all of the comments about filing a lawsuit against anyone reading or posting in response to this article. It really, really shows a lack of intelligence on the part of those making such claims. Is the title insensitive? Yeah. Does that make it illegal? No. When someone else does something that you interpret as rude, it is not automatically a crime. No judicial system is going to allow a lawsuit to come to fruition in a situation like this. And if you don't believe me, please research a bit more. You will find that I am correct. Did the article specifically say anything that is intended to sound like factual information concerning NH. No. It requires a specific intent or a specific representation that something is the truth in order to be mallice, slander, etc. Stating opinion does not constitute this.
Girls who wear glasses have specs appeal...
[ Parent ]
silly (none / 0) (#379)
by Roman on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 12:35:01 AM EST

first you have to read up on the actual law to make stupid remarks like that.

Here is a wikipedia text for you and it has links to good sites that explain the law.

Slander or Libel are both about defamation but in the USA the first amendment makes a distinction between defamation of character and a simple insult.

I understand you are young, so try to learn things before openning your mouth, I can see you have a computer and the internet access, why not use that?
 

[ Parent ]

Maybe we can use some sort of electoral college.nt (3.00 / 2) (#382)
by IceTitan on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 12:53:06 AM EST


Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
[ Parent ]
So many sigs, so little space (3.00 / 7) (#82)
by nkyad on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:34:19 PM EST

"K5: We understand the inequity of the news stories"
"I think a formal complaint to the FCC and other legal authorities is in order."
"I hope you get chopped into timy peices."
"K5: We give a bad name to the internet in general."
"K5: Stupidity grace your pages."

Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run


"K5 - it's nothing but FILTH!!!" -nt (3.00 / 4) (#160)
by mr strange on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:29:40 PM EST



intrigued by your idea that fascism is feminine - livus
[ Parent ]
K5: Not a victim of rape crimes." (3.00 / 4) (#327)
by BJH on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 08:31:51 PM EST

Harsh, I know...
--
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

[ Parent ]
Holy shit, (2.33 / 3) (#85)
by Sesquipundalian on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:54:52 PM EST

this is so awesome!


Did you know that gullible is not actually an english word?
roR rOR ROR, okay okay (3.00 / 4) (#87)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 06:58:56 PM EST

I really must stop reading this over and over again.

The men in white coats are gonna take me away if I dont.

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.

Hot. (2.00 / 2) (#89)
by Lanes Inexplicably Closed to Traffic on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:00:38 PM EST

I hope I voted that one up... this one's definitely going to the front page.

This is some of the best (2.00 / 3) (#96)
by topynate on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:13:23 PM EST

hate mail I have read in a long time. What makes people's rationality shut down in the face of something that morally outrages them?


"...identifying authors with their works is a feckless game. Simply to go by their books, Agatha Christie is a mass murderess, while William Buckley is a practicing Christian." --Gore Vidal
that's not the problem (none / 0) (#101)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:21:54 PM EST

rationally shutting down in the face of something that morally outrages you is pretty much about as human as you get

the real problem is what you find outrageous, and what you don't

flavor-of-the-month white girl in jeop story after flavor-of-the-month white girl in jeop story, with updates every hour is morally outrageous: it's racist, sensationalistic yellow journalism and it opportunistically cannibalizes real grief


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I'm mostly just curious to know. (3.00 / 2) (#103)
by topynate on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:31:43 PM EST

I've been reading some psychological anthropology recently and now I keep trying to explain stuff in terms of various theories.

Interestingly enough, why our culture has these anomalous events where a story is given disproportionately much attention is a good topic to investigate with those tools... but I should probably stick to maths.

It's a problem, yeah... I happen to think it won't go away until we sort out why it keeps happening. Low journalistic standards allow it to perpetuate, but the public as a whole must bear the responsibility for lapping it up. These hate mails tell me something about the way in which many people do react to stories like this - they actually think it's wrong to be proportionate in their response. I'd love to know why that is.


"...identifying authors with their works is a feckless game. Simply to go by their books, Agatha Christie is a mass murderess, while William Buckley is a practicing Christian." --Gore Vidal
[ Parent ]

My thoughts, such as they are. (none / 0) (#198)
by oneiromancer on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:22:46 PM EST

People tend to be affected by those stories they can empathise with. A story about a missing child is relevant to anyone with children, as the pain involved in losing a child can be appreciated by any parent.

Plus, it's facilitated and perpetuated by our news media -- as they're reliant on viewing figures (for TV stations) and subscription numbers (for newspapers/magazines), they need to choose stories that'll appeal to their target audience. Low journalistic standards are, IMO, an inevitable consequence of the commercialisation of the media.

Apologies for the UK-centric stats, but the sales figures for all broadsheet newspapers in the month of May totalled about 1.5 million, while the sales figures for tabloids were closer to 10 million. Clearly, the lower journalistic standards of tabloids sell more newspapers.

I think it's a chicken-and-egg problem; people are concerned with celebrities and minor news stories precisely because most of the mass media is pathetically banal; if soap operas and celebrity gossip is all that's on TV and in the newspapers, then that's what the watching public will gravitate to. After all, the news media of even fifty years ago had higher journalistic standards -- I think the trends in society we're seeing now can be reversed.

'You are a heartless bastard.......' -- K5 hate mail
[ Parent ]
Tabloids are cheaper (none / 0) (#266)
by Eustace Cranch on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:27:45 AM EST

That's not insignificant in many people's choice of newspaper.

[ Parent ]
And (none / 0) (#284)
by rusty on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 08:49:51 AM EST

They fit in a standard sized bathroom stall.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
A recent development in the UK is the 'compact': (none / 0) (#296)
by topynate on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:34:03 PM EST

a broadsheet-type newspaper in tabloid size. The Independent started it, now the Times does it too.


"...identifying authors with their works is a feckless game. Simply to go by their books, Agatha Christie is a mass murderess, while William Buckley is a practicing Christian." --Gore Vidal
[ Parent ]
K5 Approaching Evil (1.50 / 16) (#108)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:40:48 PM EST

Gentlemen. This system is out of control. What is happing here is going to have real repercussions. You will not be able to hide behind you pseudonyms in a lawsuit.

And Rusty, you can't say you didn't know. You know how to fix this. You have lost control and it is your fault.

K5 *approaching* evil? (3.00 / 4) (#119)
by oneiromancer on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:54:02 PM EST

Hell no. I've been posting here for months (and reading for a lot longer). Despite this, I'm ashamed to admit that there are people here who make me look like a fine upstanding member of society in comparison, but hey, I try.

The thing is... this is the internet. You may read something that offends you on it. The 'Fuck Natalee Holloway' piece was potentially offensive, but, despite its title, it made several good points about the modern media. You may not like the content, but to complain that we're all evil.. why, that's flirtation where I come from. ;)

'You are a heartless bastard.......' -- K5 hate mail
[ Parent ]
K5 is special (2.00 / 9) (#122)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:57:23 PM EST

K5 is special. It gives weight to words. It is a responsibility.

The software to fix k5 is easy.

You have heard of the prisoner's delema?

K5 needs a memory and some morality. Power to broadcast to the top of search queries is the same as power to braodcast into minds.

The FCC will come here. Maybe not tomorrow. But they will come.

[ Parent ]

yuo are my favorite troll (3.00 / 6) (#143)
by Linux or FreeBSD on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:17:45 PM EST

i Encourage (3) game theory references that are completely irrelevant.

also:
"Power to broadcast to the top of search queries is the same as power to braodcast into minds."
i actually loled at that for quite a while.

"The FCC will come here. Maybe not tomorrow. But they will come."
fuck, i loled at the whole thing.

[ Parent ]
I prefer Windows (3.00 / 2) (#149)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:20:33 PM EST

But tonight we will fuck, LinuxOrFreeBSD.

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]
i always think your username says (2.25 / 4) (#206)
by Linux or FreeBSD on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:38:06 PM EST

UNTIE for a few seconds after i see it.

i think it means i want to untie you. lol.

[ Parent ]
What (3.00 / 2) (#217)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:15:56 PM EST

You don't have the DirectGoogle upgrade to your cyberthalamus yet?

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
no fucking way. (none / 1) (#250)
by aphrael on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:55:09 AM EST

That version comes with neural advertising built in. I want to want a Coke because I want one, not because some neural advertisement overcame my better judgement!

[ Parent ]
Cyberthalamus knows what you want. [nt] (3.00 / 3) (#283)
by rusty on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 08:47:18 AM EST



____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Cyberthalamus has no need of Google. (none / 0) (#278)
by Lanes Inexplicably Closed to Traffic on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 07:33:50 AM EST

If you were a cyberthalamus in geostationary orbit surrounded by impenetrable armor, you would control avatars on the ground by radio. You would have no need of Google or any other of the earthly sensations of meatsacks.

[ Parent ]
John Nash was schizophrenic too (none / 0) (#406)
by Bernie Fsckinner on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 12:49:52 PM EST

And he INVENTED game theory.

[ Parent ]
what? (2.00 / 2) (#153)
by s4f50k on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:24:43 PM EST

are you from like...texas?

</gay>

[n/t]

ok guys really, i'm done now.

[ Parent ]

Um (3.00 / 2) (#123)
by trhurler on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 07:57:56 PM EST

A lawsuit? You moron. I bet you go around threatening people on Usenet, don't you?

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
Okay STFU now, please, for your own sake (none / 0) (#127)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:01:20 PM EST

You have no fucking clue about what speak of.

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

Why? (2.00 / 5) (#131)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:07:05 PM EST

You are a pretty vile little fellow. Why?

Someone hurt you?

[ Parent ]

You dont want to know (none / 0) (#139)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:12:56 PM EST

It's just a suggestion, take it or leave it.


Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

You cut him with you razor-sharp wit. (nt) (3.00 / 2) (#252)
by artis on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:10:49 AM EST


--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
Why do we let children on this site, anyway? (3.00 / 2) (#137)
by QuantumFoam on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:09:58 PM EST

You say the FCC will come and bring the wrath on K5. The FCC has no authority over the content of web pages. Additionally, everything in this article and it's comments are easily protected speech under the First Amendment, which anyone who has been through even a high school government class would know. Oh yeah, you're 15......

- Barack Obama: Because it will work this time. Honest!
[ Parent ]

YHBT YFI HAND /nt (none / 1) (#184)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:04:13 PM EST


--
"What's next, sigging a k5er quote about sigging someone on k5?"


[ Parent ]
lol (3.00 / 5) (#141)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:16:00 PM EST

When this article makes front page in 4 more votes, here's hoping it's the #2 link for ?q=natalee

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
Here's the thing: (1.50 / 2) (#148)
by diocletian on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:20:32 PM EST

You'll probably see to it that it will be --- and you'll probably write another "article" demanding that the new hate-mail be published. And here's what's really sad about the whole thing: you'll probably still think it's funny then, too.
_____________________________________

simple empathy is my motivation ~ circletimessquare
[ Parent ]

Here's the thing: (1.57 / 7) (#150)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:21:12 PM EST

You're a whiny little faggit who needs a beating.

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]
Ok, (3.00 / 3) (#155)
by QuantumFoam on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:25:51 PM EST

I have to say that this story is actually very funny and has provided hours of entertainment on an otherwise boring day at work. The two Halloway stories have taken trolling to a new level, one beyond K5 and into the realm of Google, where it's bound to piss off people who 1) Don't know what trolling is and take the stories seriously 2) Stay glued to the fucking news when this crap is on, creating demand for other time-wasting missing/kidnapped girl "stories" the moment they happen.

- Barack Obama: Because it will work this time. Honest!
[ Parent ]

Yes, (none / 1) (#159)
by diocletian on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:28:59 PM EST

the letters are funny, and so is that ridiculous thread about the FCC coming to get us all for using filthy language. It's just not funny enough to make it worth having to agree with UNITE, wise though he may be.
_____________________________________

simple empathy is my motivation ~ circletimessquare
[ Parent ]

True (none / 1) (#167)
by QuantumFoam on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:37:59 PM EST

I don't like UNITE, either, but I'll grudgingly vote up good articles, this is better than the usual K5 fare. On the topic of sigs, I was going to use this, but the other one was too funny:

Rusty, please stop this.

You are a coder. You have all the information to make this a wonderful system.

It's funny on so many levels.......

- Barack Obama: Because it will work this time. Honest!
[ Parent ]

I get the joke. (2.00 / 2) (#169)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:41:16 PM EST

I get the joke. But it isn't funny. The damage here is real.

Some people have access to certain facts. But that doe not chage the morality of what has happened here today.

[ Parent ]

Yes, it's.... (none / 0) (#171)
by QuantumFoam on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:44:25 PM EST

It's so funny I just had to explain to mystified co-workers why I literally fell out of my chair laughing at the Rusty comment. You obviously have no idea how ANYTHING works in the real world. Your opinions are either invalid and stupid, or you're trolling us.

- Barack Obama: Because it will work this time. Honest!
[ Parent ]

Rusty gets and FCC fine. (1.83 / 6) (#172)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:47:50 PM EST

It will happen.

If a civil suit does not get him first.

He is King of the Trolls and his head will roll for them all. His wallet anyway. His real head should stay on his real shoulders and will mine. But, this should cost him as Howard Stern's employers had to pay for the mouth they gave a voice.

[ Parent ]

Oh man (none / 1) (#177)
by QuantumFoam on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:55:47 PM EST

Do you want to displace my new sig already?

He is King of the Trolls and his head will roll for them all. His wallet anyway. His real head should stay on his real shoulders and will mine. But, this should cost him as Howard Stern's employers had to pay for the mouth they gave a voice.

Howard Stern got in trouble because whatever he said was broadcast over radio frequencies, which the FCC does regulate. Teh Intar-web comes over wires and not over lisenced airwaves, so the FCC has no contol over it. To illustrate: "I am going to go to Aruba, find the body, puncture holes in it with a knife, and have sex with the knife holes". I'll tell you if I get arrested....

- Barack Obama: Because it will work this time. Honest!
[ Parent ]

Broadcasting into Google (1.83 / 6) (#179)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:59:52 PM EST

Rusty is broadcasting into Google. It is worse. It is not regulated yet. But it will be for the same reason electromagnetic wave broadcasts are. After all what is the difference? Copper and glass versus air? Your legal isolation comes from atomic mass?

Yes, the law is slow, but it will come. It always does.

[ Parent ]

Jesus (3.00 / 3) (#187)
by QuantumFoam on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:07:11 PM EST

The RF spectrum is a scarce commodity. The FCC doles out bits of the spectrum to organizations, making them pay for the use of the frequency space and also regulating what can be broadcase.

Google is a search engine that spiders websites, collecting data into one large database. When you listen to the radio, that is a broadcast because the signal is being sent to you by a station. When you go to Google, you are requesting a page that is made SPECIFICALLY for you, a page that is sent solely to you. It is the opposite of broadcasting.

That's the difference between the radio and Google. Idiot.

- Barack Obama: Because it will work this time. Honest!
[ Parent ]

Not the specturm (1.33 / 3) (#192)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:10:35 PM EST

It is not the spectrum my friend, it is the ideas. The portioning out of spectrum is just a part of what the FCC does.

Read my other post on this because I have to go.

It is friday night and I have a date.

kiss.

[ Parent ]

Nobody... (3.00 / 4) (#219)
by Toshio on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:19:07 PM EST

... expects the Spanish FCC :D

Sorry, just couldn't resist.

Thank you for your time though.


--- To boldly invent more hot water ---
[ Parent ]
More importantly (3.00 / 4) (#227)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:31:54 PM EST

The RF spectrum is a publically owned commodity, in the United States. The price we the people extract for giving exclusive rights to some portion of our spectrum to private entities is the right to punish them for misusing it.

At least in theory, anyway. What we actually do is let them misuse it as much as they want and punish them for boobies. But the theory remains sound.

I point this out not because I don't think you know it, but because our friend here, and at least one of these hate mails, demonstrate that a lot of people actually don't understand this.

This worries me a lot. They're asking for regulation based on no authority from an agency whose source of authority they don't know about. They actually believe that the purpose of the FCC is to regulate all communication. And that this is a good and valuable thing to have.

Degenrate Art all over again...

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

You are a twit... (none / 0) (#330)
by ckaminski on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 08:45:10 PM EST

The FCC's rules that may or may not exist years from now, have abso-fucking-lutely NO relevance on what exists in reality today.  Get your ass our of your head, and go back to grammar school.

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCKITY FUCK FUCK.  I can say that on da Intarweb and not the radio, because the FCC or any other F** TLA Gubbamint organization has SHIT to do with regulating the content of the Internet. (short of childporn, copyright infringing material, and collections of SSN's and stolen credit card numbers).

[ Parent ]

And your authority for your statements is? (none / 0) (#290)
by rigorist on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 11:42:21 AM EST

The FCC has authority to do things only because Congress gives it power.  Your homework is to find the section of Title 47 (where the Communications Act of 1934 is codified) that gives the FCC power to issue citations to a website.

IAALBIANYL.

[ Parent ]

oh? (1.75 / 4) (#175)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:49:59 PM EST

You guys are cops?

This is a big psychotroll honey pot and you are id'ing all the flakes?

Yes. It is very funny.

[ Parent ]

Nope, not cops (none / 1) (#176)
by QuantumFoam on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:52:02 PM EST

We just have the slightest understanding of what is and is not legal in our society. Again, your high school civics class will be very enlightening when and if you advance to that grade.

- Barack Obama: Because it will work this time. Honest!
[ Parent ]

Sorry, But I am not in your society. (1.75 / 4) (#178)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:56:46 PM EST

Sorry guys, but I don't have a high school civics class. I am not in the united states. My education has been more sophisticated. As is my culture.

[ Parent ]
I apologize in advance if he's Canadian. (none / 0) (#181)
by spooked on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:01:50 PM EST

We're not perfect either, and then the class would be called 'Law 12'.

Seriously.
[ Parent ]
Sigh. (3.00 / 1) (#182)
by oneiromancer on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:02:46 PM EST

You know, you were far more amusing back when you were accusing us all of being evil and saying the FCC would beat all of us nasty internet trolls back into submission.

It's a shame to see a potentially first-class moron throwing it all away just to become a rather inferior troll.

Still, I'm sure your culture's wonderful -- after all, it must allow censorship of views found offensive by the prevailing majority. Oh, to live in a state that prohibits freedom of speech and expression...

'You are a heartless bastard.......' -- K5 hate mail
[ Parent ]
You need some control (1.33 / 3) (#185)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:05:14 PM EST

Your country and your ideas are out of control.

You need some regulation.

Free speech is not absolute. There is liability for words.

[ Parent ]

I'm not American. (none / 1) (#205)
by oneiromancer on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:34:02 PM EST

And you seem to be suggesting that we need to be prohibited from saying things that may potentially offend you or the moral majority. I don't think you quite have this whole 'liberal democracy' thing worked out yet.

The only liability free speech brings with it is that others are free to disagree and criticise your speech, just as you're free to defend your views. Unfortunately, I'm working tomorrow and need to sleep, so I'll have to leave you to tilt at windmills without my assistance.

Also, the underlying themes of beatings, control, restraint, and regulation throughout your arguments were somewhat alarming: we're all bad people and need to be punished?

"Ooo, I've been a naughty troll!" *smack*
"Punish me!" *smack*

?

'You are a heartless bastard.......' -- K5 hate mail
[ Parent ]
the problem with that (none / 1) (#254)
by aphrael on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:15:32 AM EST

is two-fold. How can I know how someone will react to my words? And, moreover, are they mindless automatons who simply react, or do they have a *choice* of how to react? Anyhow ... _absolute_ freedom of speech, particularly of political speech, is one of the bedrock principles of our political and legal culture. You'd have to have a revolution to change that. It ain't gonna happen.

[ Parent ]
He must be a Europeon (3.00 / 3) (#199)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:24:11 PM EST

in here we have very strong freedom of speech, as long as you don't say anything bad about the jews, the muslims, homos, the disabled, the transsexuals, the commies, etc. etc. That's right, in many countries here you can actually go to jail for voicing your opinion.

--
"What's next, sigging a k5er quote about sigging someone on k5?"


[ Parent ]
What? (none / 1) (#282)
by MrHanky on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 08:10:21 AM EST

In most European countries it's perfectly OK to speak badly about commies, it's just not compulsory, like it is in the US of A. I think we can speak negatively about disabled as well, as long as we don't call them cripples or retards. As long you use the correct euphemisms, you can probably say whatever you want.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]
Haven't read the constitution, eh? (none / 0) (#322)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 06:42:45 PM EST

Oh, wait, we don't have a constitution, yet. And it seems we'll never have. I guess it's better than getting Germany and France to decide what are considered the "proper" limits of free speech. (hint for the europeonly challenged: those countries are the worst at limiting free speech.)

--
"What's next, sigging a k5er quote about sigging someone on k5?"


[ Parent ]
I'm sure it is....... (3.00 / 3) (#183)
by QuantumFoam on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:03:21 PM EST

I'm also sorry to hear that you live outside the US. Since you were threating rusty with the FCC, I thought you were one of the usual American idiots that makes empty threats, takes offense at things that don't concern them, and thinks that words constitute a hate crime.

It turns out that you are instead one of the usual non-American idiots that makes empty threats, takes offense at things that don't concern them, and thinks that words constitute a hate crime.

The reality actually lowers my opinion of you.

- Barack Obama: Because it will work this time. Honest!
[ Parent ]

like I said... (1.33 / 3) (#190)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:08:02 PM EST

The FCC will come.

I mean that the regulations will evolve to cover the internet. There is no logical reason why broadcasting through copper and glass should be treated any differently than air.

[ Parent ]

Why not? (none / 1) (#197)
by Spendocrat on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:22:37 PM EST

Cable is already different than public broadcast. Where is the dissonance?

[ Parent ]
You requested it... (none / 1) (#251)
by artis on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:06:57 AM EST

...and got a personalized response, no one did any "broadcasting" to you.
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
sure there is. (none / 1) (#253)
by aphrael on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:13:42 AM EST

The FCC's power to regulate the airwaves stems from the fact that the airwaves are publically owned and leased to corporations. The copper and wire isn't publically owned. Now, maybe it should be; but it isn't. So where would the FCC get the *authority* to regulate the internet in the fashion you think it should? Since freedom of speech is protected, and the government doesn't own the servers or the networks (unlike television and radio, where it owns the broadcast medium), it has no power to act.

[ Parent ]
A slight correction (none / 1) (#292)
by rigorist on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 11:50:18 AM EST

While the underlying theory is that the FCC has the power to regulate wireless brpadcasts is that the airwaves are publicly owned, in reality the FCC has power to regulate because it has been granted that power by Congress.

Congress has not granted the FCC the power to regulate the content of websites and such a grant of power would have little chance of surviving a First Amendment challenge anyway.

When maxhax can show the section of Title 47 where there is such a grant of power by Congress to the FCC, then its comments might be germane.  As it stands now, we only hear the rumblings of a counter-troll.

IAALBIAMNYL

[ Parent ]

a fair point (none / 1) (#301)
by aphrael on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:28:13 PM EST

but it doesn't address the question of where congress got its authority to regulate. The Congress has the authority to regulate the airwaves because it owns them. It doesn't have the authority to regulate the internet except insofar as the internet constitutes interstate commerce; and then the first amendment poses a much higher barrier.

[ Parent ]
Also, your sig is now the best ever. -nt (none / 0) (#163)
by diocletian on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:32:28 PM EST


_____________________________________

simple empathy is my motivation ~ circletimessquare
[ Parent ]

TY, NT (none / 0) (#164)
by QuantumFoam on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:33:24 PM EST


- Barack Obama: Because it will work this time. Honest!
[ Parent ]

Not any more! (3.00 / 4) (#151)
by joecool12321 on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:23:30 PM EST

"Searching for her full name shows her official missing persons site 1st and our link as 2nd."

Do you feel lucky?

Kuro5hin: 1
Official Site: 0

K5 wins again!

Re: Not any more! (none / 0) (#268)
by Legion303 on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:52:07 AM EST

Pwnd.

[ Parent ]
Adsense: "Buy Natalee Holloway on eBay" (3.00 / 3) (#279)
by mr strange on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 07:44:59 AM EST

(Not really, but the idea made me laugh.)

intrigued by your idea that fascism is feminine - livus
[ Parent ]
This Article is the Tomb Stone of K5 (1.20 / 10) (#166)
by maxhax on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:37:32 PM EST

Rusty, you should be ashamed of yourself. This is your fault. You and everyone who voted this and the previous hate crime to fp have killed this site.

RIP

Relax ... you're starting to look foolish (3.00 / 5) (#173)
by nlscb on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:48:03 PM EST

The whole point of this site is that anyone can say anything they want. That includes things that many, if not all of its others users, find incredibly offensive. Hell, look at the diary of the story's author or google "Baldrson" and "noogie" if you don't believe me.

While I've never been a fan of appeasing the cool kids, your rep around here is taking a real beating. localroger, rusty, and cts (at least if you leave him alone) are not the nasty members of our community. You would do well to listen to their advice if you want your future visits here to be enjoyable.

The 1st amendment is the only part of the Bill of Rights still enforced. We'll have the ACLU and various other free speech organizations covering our backs if anyone even tried to do something. Not to mention, I do not know where in the country you could possibly find a judge that would risk his reputation hearing such a case.

Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange
[ Parent ]

*Starting* ? *blinks* /nt (none / 0) (#196)
by localroger on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:21:22 PM EST



I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds -- J. Robert Oppenheimer
[ Parent ]
I'm trying to be gentle ... (none / 1) (#202)
by nlscb on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:29:58 PM EST

play along.

Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange
[ Parent ]

lol @ hyperventilation (3.00 / 2) (#180)
by Lanes Inexplicably Closed to Traffic on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:01:05 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Did you people notice (3.00 / 14) (#170)
by LodeRunner on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 08:43:02 PM EST

that while these Natalee stories are being voted FP, other more relevant subjects are falling to the wayside here... just like on Fox News?

---
"dude, you can't even spell your own name" -- Lode Runner

OMFG! K5HBT! (3.00 / 5) (#193)
by nlscb on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:11:38 PM EST

K5 has trolled itself. It's formed a philosophical contradiction of referencing itself that will cause it to fall catastrophically into a recursive metaphor.

Comment Search has returned - Like a beaten wife, I am pathetically grateful. - mr strange
[ Parent ]

Indeed sir (3.00 / 3) (#295)
by UNITE on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:15:25 PM EST

Thankfully Mr. Murdoch wired me the 800,000 gold bullions last night.  Transaction complete.

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]
I thought he used doubloons? NT (none / 0) (#349)
by metalgeek on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 06:56:32 AM EST



"K5 is a site where users have the motto 'Anyone Who Isn't Me Is An Idiot, And Anyone Who Disagrees With Me Is Gay'." skyknight
[ Parent ]
I hate these people (3.00 / 6) (#191)
by voodooeskimo on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:08:47 PM EST

You know, the ones who have appointed themselves God, who can dictate what is "appropriate" and what is "inappropriate", and can ignore the entire American justice system and call for the convictions of people who may or may not have committed a murder that...may or may not have happened!
The fact that Natalee's parents have "pulled out all the stops" to find their kid while leaving all the other kids out to hang isn't courage, it's bullshit.

I told you so (3.00 / 11) (#195)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:18:05 PM EST

half a year ago: we are the culmination of absolute finest in trolling and we keep on going. Adequacy has nothing on us. Now that the mighty google has finally acknowledged our immense power, I would like to thank gbd, UNITE, rusty, maxhax and others for making this possible. This is truly a night to remember for all those who sacrificed countless hours into making the worst of trolling. I will raise a toast for K5 before I proceed to toss salad tomorrow.

What do we win?

--
"What's next, sigging a k5er quote about sigging someone on k5?"


Adequacy is so dead (3.00 / 4) (#236)
by nkyad on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 11:10:05 PM EST

And everybody who went running to the ultimate navel-gazing experiment called Adequacy eventually came back under a new account, after the said experiment became just another tiny star in the Wayback Machine sky.

More seriously, I think K5 is the whole package: we have the best trolls and we manage to have serious, lively discussions on the top of it. And that without rusty having to baby-sit the site as Matt does in Mefi. What else can anyone ask for?

Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run


[ Parent ]
I guess im just cold... (3.00 / 2) (#201)
by odano on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:28:04 PM EST

Because I found this story to be quite standard and not in any was disturbing or wrong...

odano
Stockton Computer Repair | Biggest US Cities
'Cuz you read it (none / 0) (#631)
by kosuri on Tue Nov 01, 2005 at 11:48:23 AM EST

The hate mail is from people who didn't get past the title.
--
I'm glad that when this story goes down this stupid comment will go with it. -- thankyougustad, 11/23/2005
[ Parent ]
I only see 10 emails (3.00 / 4) (#207)
by meatsandwich on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:49:56 PM EST

... K5 has received more hate mail than ever before ... here are all email responses received to date

Where are they all? I only see 10. Do I need to do something to see the rest?

A word from our leader (none / 1) (#277)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 07:31:33 AM EST

here

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.
[ Parent ]

Hate mail is like hate spch.: loud and misdirected (3.00 / 4) (#210)
by Toshio on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:52:51 PM EST

Interesting that authors of only three out of ten messages selected for posting here actualy managed to grasp the fact that K5 is merely a public forum for voicing opinions and not a personal page with help@k5 being mail address of the author of article in question. Going further, two out of these three authors don't understand the article as a grotesque critique of current U.S. of A. media landscape. The last Anonymous that didn't disqualify by content doesn't even have a content so it's more like Natalee SPAM and not really a hate message.

As usual, hate mail is just like hate speech. Loud and bombastic in appearance and completely misdirected in the aim. In one way so similar to trolls.

Thank you for your time.


--- To boldly invent more hot water ---
For the record (3.00 / 1) (#218)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:17:53 PM EST

This is all the email I've gotten. I wasn't trying to cherry pick the funny ones or anything. They were just all gold.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Well, it could be worse (3.00 / 2) (#226)
by Toshio on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:31:19 PM EST

I guess... If this is all the mail there is, then it's not as bad as it sounded. But I guess that there might still be some trouble brewing here. Some people just don't go along with the program and manage to skip classes of Reason 101 together with Theory of Evolution.

Oh, and the funny question: how long before the all-mighty Google filters out the K5 pages from the index. Almost worth taking bets, don't you think?


--- To boldly invent more hot water ---
[ Parent ]
I wonder (none / 0) (#229)
by rusty on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:38:39 PM EST

That would be interesting, wouldn't it? They have a long history of putting K5 stuff much higher than anyone thinks it really deserves to be. Like, um, case in point here.

It would be fun to see what would happen if they decided to drop us altogether. I can't think why they would, but maybe they're getting even worse hate mail than me.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

I don't think google would do that. (none / 1) (#231)
by LittleZephyr on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:43:56 PM EST

They might take away some of the PageRank, but K5 has lots of informative human-writen articles -- The exact thing that Google (the search engine) and the real Google (the company), wants.
(\♥/) What if instead of posting that comment,
(0.-) you had actually taken a knife and stabbed
("_") me in the eye? You murderer. ~ Rusty

[ Parent ]
no offense, but. . . (2.88 / 9) (#216)
by Lode Runner on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:14:31 PM EST

Now don't get me wrong, I'd be much happier if nerd-oriented and international stories dominated the media. Newsbreaks for Cassini's trajectory correction burns? Newsbreaks for a Bangladesh ferry accident? Awww yeah, bring it on!

Nevetheless, there's a nasty subtext to the stories and most commentary here. My disdain for the Natalee Holloway story reminds me for my disdain of the coverage of the JonBenet Ramsey case: it's disdain for the working class. For the usual vulgar motives of validation and schadenfreude, these blue-collar bozos want round-the-clock coverage of Natalee; it's not being forced down their throats.

This condescension towards the proles is going to bite you in the ass. From this discussion it's clear that K5 is not one with the people. When the revolution comes, you know, the one against the hegemonic order you all hate so fervently, you lot will be the first to go.

NB: this doesn't just apply to Westerners. I've lived all over and anytime the media panders to the populace they end up producing pure crap. In a just world, soccer wouldn't ever be televised.

Hardly. (3.00 / 5) (#225)
by LittleZephyr on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:30:45 PM EST

Revolutions are never led by the blue-collar hordes, they are always pawns to those who manipulate them.

K5 can harness the proletarian hate against itself. We go into hiding, tricking the horde into thinking that our enemies are the ones behind these articles.

K5 can sit back and watch while the proles devour our foes, while they pass harmlessly past us.
(\♥/) What if instead of posting that comment,
(0.-) you had actually taken a knife and stabbed
("_") me in the eye? You murderer. ~ Rusty

[ Parent ]

That is.... (none / 1) (#245)
by DavidTC on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:28:34 AM EST

...the greatest thing I've ever read in my entire life.

We are [the liberal media|Fox News]. (Please pick the one you hate.) We make fun of how much we covered Natalee Holloway, because we are in charge, and we don't give a flying fuck about you people.

Come and get us, you idiots! We own the most powerful corporations and governments in the world, you can't touch us! Bwhahahahaha!

(Is the laugh overdoing it?)

-David T. C.
Yes, my email address is real.
[ Parent ]

Stalin shot (none / 1) (#364)
by Lode Runner on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 02:53:00 PM EST

the people who tried to pull that stunt. When the revolution comes, I intend to rat you all out in order to curry favor.

[ Parent ]
Yes, Natalee is a bolshevik martyr. (3.00 / 5) (#259)
by xcham on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 03:48:56 AM EST

The proletariat are the ones who can afford to send their daughters to Aruba for graduation? I think that title goes to the people who do the shit jobs in our society, who by and large don't consist of white folks with that much disposable income. No, these are the middle class Americans who, essentially, couldn't care less if there were fire raining from the sky, so long as they knew that their lawns were safe. The problem isn't a problem as long as it's "not in my back yard". The folks pulling the strings understand and exploit this egocentric worldview by pulling on the heartstrings of the nation so damned hard that pacemakers start to fall out. Look! A middle-class white girl went missing, not one of those hispanics that we pay under the table to clean our houses and shovel our shit. Wait, we're white! And middle-class! It can happen to us! NO ONE IS SAFE OMG OMG WTF BBQ. Pass whatever legistlation you have to, just keep my kids safe. And its people who know how to play these people that will keep winning elections.

[ Parent ]
Beginning to wonder (none / 0) (#280)
by The Diary Section on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 07:57:35 AM EST

if its actually akin to the way a convicted murderer beats up the rapist in the prison because the sex offender is "scum". Not so much that they are bored with Iraq as they are beginning to feel uneasy about it and by extension with themselves. Unfortunately the climate in the US is such that its not easy to express those feelings, especially if one doesn't move in the right circles (ie. you are OK if you are studying at Berkley, going to be more difficult if you live in some hick town). The Natalee Holloway case is one that its quite easy to feel all the right emotions about (outrage, shock, compassion, righteous indignation with foreigners) without fear of it souring.
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
[ Parent ]
Facts be here - mod the parent up [n/t] (none / 0) (#281)
by destroy all monsters on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 08:09:37 AM EST



"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]
Have you been to Aruba? (none / 0) (#363)
by Lode Runner on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 02:48:32 PM EST

The great mass of lower-class whites are following this story for the same reason they follow the JonBenet (another non-prole) case: it exposes the decadence of their social betters; and it validates their fears concerning shifty foreigners.

Telemundo and Univision give extensive coverage to the crap that Mexican proles want to hear about: namely non-stop stories about whitey keeping immigrants down.

[ Parent ]

We don't disdain them because they're working clas (none / 1) (#264)
by m50d on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 04:47:40 AM EST

We disdain them because they're idiots

[ Parent ]
false dichotomy (3.00 / 2) (#362)
by Lode Runner on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 02:35:53 PM EST

I, for one, disdain them because they're working class AND because they're idiots.

[ Parent ]
You're forgetting your dialectical materialism! (3.00 / 5) (#285)
by MrHanky on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 08:53:56 AM EST

Your analysis is lucid, but not dialectical, and therefore wrong, comrade.

As you know, the bourgeois press is one of Capitalism's oppression mechanisms. When the people is given "what they want" (bread and circus), they forget their greater needs, such as freedom from private ownership. Not only that, but commercial television turns the viewers into goods ("consumers") that can be sold to the highest bidder (advertiser), thereby turning public debate into private trade. This is hardly in the working class's own interest.

So, as you can see, disdain for the Natalee Holloway case isn't hatred towards the working class, but rather solidarity with it. The problem is that the working class is powerless, and held powerless by the state, the media, by capital. I suggest that what they need is education.

Educating the working classes will take rather harsh means. All historical evidence shows that this can only be achieved by 1) a bloody revolution, eradicating the aristocracy and the bourgeoisie, and 2) forced re-schooling of the working class, preferably through combined work and education camps (popularly called GULag).

And then, in the free, class-less society: 3) Profit! for the fortunate few that have seen the true course of History.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]

If you'd read Marx (none / 1) (#361)
by Lode Runner on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 02:34:29 PM EST

you'd know that consumerism was a concept alien to him. He could't see Ford coming, let alone Walmart or Target.

[ Parent ]
Hence the quotation marks [NT] (none / 1) (#368)
by MrHanky on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 06:48:16 PM EST

This text is not here,
like a hot chick with me,
sucking my penis.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]
and who are you quoting? /nt (none / 1) (#369)
by Lode Runner on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 07:11:27 PM EST

I've ruled out the chick.

[ Parent ]
I love you guys. (none / 1) (#381)
by IceTitan on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 12:44:52 AM EST

But not in the gay way of course.
Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
[ Parent ]
hehe (3.00 / 3) (#220)
by LittleZephyr on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:22:00 PM EST

This story and the comments in it have actually made me laugh out loud. That being said. I've got a new sig.
(\♥/) What if instead of posting that comment,
(0.-) you had actually taken a knife and stabbed
("_") me in the eye? You murderer. ~ Rusty

BWAH-HA-HA-HAAAA!!! (3.00 / 8) (#221)
by mjfgates on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:22:56 PM EST

Hate mail from idiots is balm for the soul, and this is some of the finest balm I've seen in years.

Truly the stickiest of the icky (none / 1) (#309)
by Lanes Inexplicably Closed to Traffic on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 04:04:13 PM EST



[ Parent ]
HOO BOY (3.00 / 9) (#223)
by ksandstr on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:25:56 PM EST

It would appear that we of the K5 have just reached another peak on the troll-o-meter against time graph. A few more like this (progressively higher on the aforementioned meter of course) and we'll start getting pockets of mass enlightenment. Apparently the Way of the Troll is easier traversed with company.

Congratulations, everyone.

Way of the Troll (none / 1) (#380)
by IceTitan on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 12:39:56 AM EST

Now that would make a good tshirt.
These are not the trolls you are looking for.
Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
[ Parent ]
Classic K5. (3.00 / 7) (#230)
by I HATE TROLLS on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:41:28 PM EST

Good show old man. Rusty's getting down with the trollery too, which is a total score.

K5 Theme Song! (none / 0) (#234)
by freddie on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 11:02:19 PM EST

I have found it. I mean, its related to the story that brought kuro5hin in to the spot light.


Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein
+1 stoner lyrics (none / 0) (#263)
by Kasreyn on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 03:57:57 AM EST

like, red rover red rover, *snicker*, I'll like come over. Yeah yeah, then you break into the chorus riff. Fuck, man, gimme that!

*hufffffff*

Toke toke GIVE, motherfucker. Who's up for groupies?


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
[ Parent ]
i don't know who's trolling who any more (none / 0) (#240)
by fleece on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 11:51:34 PM EST

it's all too boring, and for me only serves as the 11th reason



I feel like some drunken crazed lunatic trying to outguess a cat ~ Louis Winthorpe III
+1FP (3.00 / 3) (#243)
by Lanes Inexplicably Closed to Traffic on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:09:04 AM EST

This generation's "My Son is a Computer Hacker"!

Except this hasn't hit techtv (none / 0) (#247)
by ProfaneBaby on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:50:32 AM EST

yet?

Webcam / Video Blogs. Free accounts for women who post topless. I'm only kidding.
[ Parent ]
Be patient. (none / 0) (#249)
by Lanes Inexplicably Closed to Traffic on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:14:59 AM EST

The world wasn't built in a day, after all. I'd give it at least five days.

[ Parent ]
It won't. (none / 0) (#352)
by vhold on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 07:45:48 AM EST

Think about it.. how exactly does 'Attack of the show' sell this one?

"Are you one of those people angry at the general media?  Well here's a website that has managed to troll tons of overly sympathetic people by using cuss words.. woooo-eeee"

Not really tech tv material.

[ Parent ]

Damn... (none / 0) (#244)
by kcidx on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:17:46 AM EST

Can I get a "Fuck Natalie Holloway!" One time...give it to me... Two times..give it to me... Three times...give it to me.. I can't believe this many fucks responded. The real travesty was having the CNN page contain both headlines about the London bombing, AND natalie "who fucking cares" holloway. If I were the families of natalie, or of Terry Schivo, or any other ones of these WASPY story of the hour bitches, I would be PISSED to have my loved ones and myself plastered all over TV. Fuck fuck fuck...people are fucking dumb.

This calls for a new t-shirt slogan (3.00 / 11) (#257)
by imrdkl on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 03:30:03 AM EST

Lets face it, "Duxup loves you" probably never had much real marketing potential.

How to respond to the hate mail: (3.00 / 13) (#260)
by Cowculator on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 03:48:58 AM EST

Have Fen explain to these people that none of this would have happened in the first place if Natalee had been a transhuman rather than a bag of water.  And maybe throw in a link to "Zombie Natalee Holloway"'s diary, in case anyone's created such a thing.

I'd love to see the new mail that would generate...

Cruel and unusual (none / 1) (#343)
by nkyad on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 02:07:13 AM EST

Mercy, sir, mercy. These innocent people have just send some hate mail. Do they really deserve that we unleash Fen upon them? I though the sentence should be proportional to the crime.

Don't believe in anything you can't see, smell, touch or at the very least infer from a good particle accelerator run


[ Parent ]
Fine, we'll show some restraint. (none / 1) (#384)
by Cowculator on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 01:18:37 AM EST

But they should still have to read something like "I wanting to be eating Aruban brains!  Kidnappers saying Natalee's brains so very good with katjap!  Then Natalee turning into Zombie! If Fox News talking about searching for Zombie, not investigative reporting which fish sauces tasting best with brains!  So very hungry!"

[ Parent ]
Pathetic. (3.00 / 7) (#262)
by Kasreyn on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 03:54:34 AM EST

As Chris Rock said, "even roaches have kids."

I was highly amused by the person who for some bizarre reason felt that mentioning her status as a victim of "rape crimes" would somehow lend credence to her opinions.

(Rape crimes? Was this fatuosity arrived at by the same mental process that gave us rain events?)

I'm also curious how the internet can be given a worse name than it already has.


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
Open letter to John Fahs, from a K5 reader (3.00 / 7) (#267)
by Legion303 on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:44:48 AM EST

Dear Mr. Fahs:

I am writing to inform you that i find your comments unacceptable. Your knowledge of the first amendment and what it protects is laughable at best, and lamentable at worst. In addition, please share the reply you get from the FCC upon writing them, as I'm sure the "HA HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHA, YOU FUCKING MORON" they send you will be sure to get a good chuckle here.

Sincerely,

Steve Pordon

P.S.: Fuck Natalee Holloway

This is just what k5 needs, (none / 1) (#269)
by daveybaby on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 06:01:36 AM EST

an influx of new people with a wide range of different opinions and viewpoints. Fresh blood!

Indeed, (none / 0) (#430)
by esrever on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 12:26:46 AM EST

see here for an example of this.

Audit NTFS permissions on Windows
[ Parent ]
It has begun. (none / 0) (#434)
by daveybaby on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 02:50:07 AM EST

Yay!

[ Parent ]
We're number 1! We're number 1! (3.00 / 6) (#270)
by destroy all monsters on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 06:20:07 AM EST

Google confirms it. I've never been prouder to have been a part of a community than I am right now.

-adjusts tiara while smearing away mascara-tinged tears-

I love you all.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice

Okay (3.00 / 2) (#276)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 07:28:44 AM EST

Update needed

Bill Maher: You know it always amazes how you coloured folks manage to use the word fuck as a verb, an adverb and a pronoun all in the same sentence.

Ok (none / 1) (#328)
by Scrymarch on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 08:36:24 PM EST

Updated

But it's a wiki, you can edit it yourself, as long as your domain isn't www.xxx.texasholdem.nigeriamoney.com :)

[ Parent ]

roffle (3.00 / 3) (#288)
by flaw on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 11:05:04 AM EST

people are fucking retarded

god bless K5

--
ピニス, ピニス, everyone loves ピニス!

good news and bad news (3.00 / 4) (#291)
by circletimessquare on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 11:45:37 AM EST

good news

Usage Statistics for (k5-1) www.kuro5hin.org
Summary Period: July 2005
Generated 09-Jul-2005 00:17 EDT

http://www.kuro5hin.org/pages/stats/usage_200507.html

  1. 6173 17.36% natalee holloway
  2. 536 1.51% kuro5hin
  3. 519 1.46% fuck
  4. 487 1.37% libby hoeler
  5. 418 1.18% how to make sushi
  6. 336 0.94% sex
  7. 284 0.80% natalee
bad news

Google Zeitgeist
Search patterns, trends, and surprises according to Google

http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.html

Top 10 Declining Queries
Week of July 4, 2005  

     1. batman begins
     2. battlefield 2
     3. michael jackson
     4. hayden christensen
     5. michelle wie
     6. katie holmes
     7. natalee holloway
     8. aruba
     9. summer solstice
    10. nasa langley

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

It made the top 10. How is that bad news? (none / 1) (#307)
by Lanes Inexplicably Closed to Traffic on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 03:52:41 PM EST



[ Parent ]
bad news for k5, good news for the world ;-) nt (none / 0) (#310)
by circletimessquare on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 04:08:30 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I'm still not seeing it. (none / 0) (#311)
by Lanes Inexplicably Closed to Traffic on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 04:11:03 PM EST



[ Parent ]
driving traffic here (nt) (none / 0) (#314)
by circletimessquare on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 04:53:11 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
because its not a good list to be on? (3.00 / 2) (#312)
by JahToasted on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 04:11:22 PM EST

nt
______
"I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" -- Jim Morrison
[ Parent ]
Whoops. (none / 0) (#313)
by Lanes Inexplicably Closed to Traffic on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 04:12:53 PM EST

I read that as "declining order".

[ Parent ]
thank you k5 (3.00 / 2) (#293)
by theNote on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:03:19 PM EST

After being absent for almost a year, and only checking k5 for new localroger stories, I just had to log in and say thank you k5.

Please tell me maxhax is someone's alter ego.

maxhax is someone's alter ego (3.00 / 3) (#331)
by monkeymind on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:06:39 PM EST

looks likely... Guess who/what has just popped up on HUSI

I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people and assume the deserve it.
[ Parent ]

press conferences (none / 1) (#294)
by brettd on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:12:09 PM EST

I think this merits a press conference. Rusty?

New peice [sic] of hate "mail" (2.66 / 3) (#297)
by UNITE on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:11:12 PM EST

[new] Natalee Holloway (0.00 / 2) (#322)
by texasvirgochick on Sat Jul 9th, 2005 at 10:54:35 AM EST

you have every right to your opinion but until you have a child missing you dont have an opinion asshole! Too bad it wasnt you instead of her that went missing! Fucking bastard!

gong

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~

best...response...ever (3.00 / 7) (#298)
by full plate on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:34:50 PM EST

It's like a chemical reaction, a predictable allergic response. So complete and final are the minds of Americans when they feel is innocence is being threatened, that they'll attempt to dispose of the very tennants that made this country great. It is facinating to watch the melt down though! On a side note, do you think that Natalee Holloway woke up the day of her big trip to paradise thinking "my death will be the cause of great debate eventaully leading to down fall of the last super power on Earth" or just "I hope I don't get an STD".

Space is like ______, it can only be ______ in its absence.
gimmie a break (none / 1) (#308)
by gmol on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 04:03:27 PM EST

Ah the Americans..they are soo stooopid voting for stooopid presidents and such ARGLE BLAH BARGLE....

If they are so predicatable and dumb, why in the world is the story the top listed page on The World Brain (which is, naturally, an American company); I doubt it's because of bunch of Afghani's employing nefarious linking schemes to get back at the Americans that killed their brothers.

Why did k5 only get about 10 emails, and could not even elict a frivolous lawsuit?

Why has Google (run by Americans) not taken any action change the page ranking, despite (probably) receiving a few emails asking them to do so.

Because Americans really aren't that dumb!

The "feeble minds" that you refer to simply enjoy a good story, one way or the other.


[ Parent ]

Also (none / 0) (#316)
by rusty on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:12:24 PM EST

See the Metafilter thread, where a whole lot more Americans agree with the original story.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
The best comment on Mefi (3.00 / 6) (#346)
by destroy all monsters on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 05:56:39 AM EST

"I don't think it's that she's white, it's that she's rich. Plenty of rich black people and powerful Hispanics get media play. It's poor people who are not only shunned in our society, but actually who inspire indignation of the moral sort - cause they somehow merited their place in society by not taking advantage of America's formidable chances to become rich. These morality tales in the media are usually much more about the goodness of being rich and the dangers of consorting with the poor and shiftless. It's not enough that Arubans have to clean the playground of vacationing Americans, but they should also be morally censured because their lack of wealth might somehow cause contagion to our pride and joy, that is our gallivanting teenagers on holiday."
posted by faux ami at 11:56 AM PST on July 6

Most of the rest of what I read was crying and infighting.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

Tennants? Tenants? Tenets? (none / 1) (#407)
by czth on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 01:59:37 PM EST

Unfortunately, most of the tenants that made this country (if by that you mean the US) great are dead, and have already been disposed of.

However, the good news is that when the oil runs out, we can probably generate sufficient electricity by hooking up generators to their bodies spinning in their graves.

czth

[ Parent ]

I got a story. (1.76 / 13) (#300)
by lordDogma on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:10:28 PM EST

I happen to know her. I actually dated her once and she insisted on giving me a blow job on the first date. It doesn't suprise me that she wound up on a beach taking it from three guys at once. That's the kind of girl she was.

nat (2.00 / 2) (#392)
by veasun on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 02:12:58 AM EST

Hey, I dated her too and got a blow job on her mum's new couch. I lost track of her after sixth grade since she went to a different school.

[ Parent ]
I love K5 trolls. (none / 1) (#534)
by mrt on Thu Jul 21, 2005 at 04:15:41 AM EST

They just have a certain something, a certain je ne se qua that you just don't get on slash or anywhere else.

It is definitely an aquired taste, but it grows on the palate like a fine cheap wine.

Salut!
-

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous
[ Parent ]
Oh boy! Spelling Correction in French! (none / 0) (#549)
by Tau Neutrino on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 09:03:41 PM EST

That would be, je ne sais quoi.

Literally, "I don't know what."
--
Theater is life, cinema is art, television is furniture.
[ Parent ]
Cheers! (n/t) (none / 0) (#550)
by mrt on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 01:41:18 AM EST


-

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous
[ Parent ]
The conspiracy (3.00 / 17) (#305)
by Armada on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:59:18 PM EST

The reason why the FCC hasn't shut us down, dear sir, is because the FCC has been bought by the K5 cabal (also known as the Knights Templar). We needed a virgin to sacrifice for the acension of one of our members to grandmaster templar, and she fit the bill.

I'm sorry it bothers you that we exist. But like most secret societies, we control many aspects of your government. You see, we essentially ARE the government, and we successfully plant sites like K5 so that we can continue to dupe you, the US citizen, into giving us more rights for "censorship" and other fine liberty-squashing policies. We might not be able to control the media. But we can certainly control outrage.

Thanks, and have a pleasant day.

Virgin? (1.37 / 8) (#325)
by OXDEADBEEF on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 07:25:16 PM EST

Believe me, not anymore at least since a few hours before her death...

[ Parent ]

Millinium Op (none / 0) (#518)
by Jah-Wren Ryel on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 02:22:53 PM EST

Following the plan outlined in the Varley novel, Millenium we snatched her out of the 0xbabecafe right before the act and replaced her with folger's crystals. The drunken boys could not tell the difference.

[ Parent ]
So that is what the CMF was all about [nt] (none / 0) (#396)
by bml on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 07:59:09 AM EST



The Internet is vast, and contains many people. This is the way of things. -- Russell Dovey
[ Parent ]
Dear Public: (2.66 / 3) (#315)
by Werras on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:10:41 PM EST

All your hate are belong to K5.

FUCK NATALEE HATEMAIL (none / 1) (#317)
by Smiley K on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:23:01 PM EST

Die hotheads. You all suck for flaming this site. The only good redneck is one who has gone missing!
-- Someone set up us the bomb.
missing rednecks (none / 0) (#389)
by veasun on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 02:02:13 AM EST

Now that one was really funny.

[ Parent ]
Smiley K : You're a Fuckin Genius 7-24-05 (none / 1) (#548)
by Barney1938 on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 07:09:35 PM EST

How do I know this, you can actually spell redneck for one thing, and secondly, you even know how to write a sentence. Gee whiz. must be a Harvard, Yale, or MIT graduate. Colors are recognized by you, RED; Like a dick on a dog dozing the sun all comfrotable, with flies and nats buzzing around his pecker. They probably buzz around your nose, mouth and ears. NECK: Like a fuckin chicken neck, black neck, Jew neck, all the same to me, I just wanna see a hemp rope around the latter two, and a tall oak tree nearby as a bonus. But, then why fuck up the view with Jews, Niggers, and Northern mongrelized dogs hanging from da trees, unless, maybe we can get their rich daddies to pay us rent. Those SOB's above the Mason-Dixon line cant trace their family tree past their momma, let alone their granddaddy or great-granddaddy, probably a damned traveling peddler with a cart on wheels selling his shitty junk for pennies, nickels, and dimes, now owns Rockefellar Center.

[ Parent ]
I'm so sick of "Poor Natalee" (2.54 / 11) (#318)
by borusredrum on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:31:30 PM EST

Natalee is/was an idiot. If at 18 yrs old, you are not smart enough to not get drunk in a bar at 2AM and accept a ride from strangers you deserve whatever comes to you. I can only hope that this case reminds in the minds of parents who send their freshly graduated crotch droppings on expensive graduation trips to countries lower drinking ages. You do know that's why they didn't just go to Disney or some other American resort, right? Right.

"Crotch Droppings?" (2.20 / 5) (#323)
by OneMoreMother on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 06:42:50 PM EST

One can only hope that your mother is no longer around to bare witness to the vulgarity that spews forth from her own "crotch droppings!" Are you apparently devoid of empathy and have a disdain for the suffering of others.

[ Parent ]
Yes, crotch droppings you stupid bint. (3.00 / 4) (#354)
by borusredrum on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 10:54:54 AM EST

Crotch droppings aren't just kids; they are kids whose parents set them in front of the comptuer, TV, teacher, etc and expect these other devices to care and love their child while they go out and play tennis. Learn the lingo, bitch.

[ Parent ]
Wow, an asshat with a heart of gold! <NT> (none / 0) (#411)
by kero on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 05:04:13 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Hmmm, crotch droppings??? (none / 0) (#377)
by IceTitan on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 12:29:33 AM EST

I'll have to write that one down to use later.
Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
[ Parent ]
A bit harsh (2.00 / 2) (#393)
by Shajenko on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 04:16:01 AM EST

If at 18 yrs old, you are not smart enough to not get drunk in a bar at 2AM and accept a ride from strangers you deserve whatever comes to you.
I'm a bit coldhearted myself, but I don't think anybody, save those who orchestrated the Holocaust or who did something equivalently atrocious, deserve to be raped and/or murdered.

Even so, if she didn't know better than to do what she did, she should be allowed out by herself.

[ Parent ]
You are just jealous (none / 0) (#399)
by Harvey Anderson on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 10:11:38 AM EST

that you don't get to go home with girls who are drunk at 2AM.  At least, not girls who weigh less than three times Natalee.

[ Parent ]
disney? (none / 1) (#530)
by alabama2 on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 03:03:30 PM EST

Om, would you have gone to Disney world as your graduation trip from high school? Even if they had gone there they would have found ways to drink - you haven't had much contact with the modern teenager have you?

[ Parent ]
#9 on google for fuck (3.00 / 5) (#319)
by orelius on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:44:21 PM EST

Google: fuck

And rising. (none / 0) (#357)
by floydian on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 12:04:12 PM EST

Now #7.

[ Parent ]
#4 (none / 0) (#401)
by shinnin on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 10:42:20 AM EST

steadily.

[ Parent ]
Fuck me... (none / 0) (#488)
by redeye on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 08:50:32 AM EST

...pink and call me rosey!

[ Parent ]
Hilarious. (3.00 / 4) (#321)
by The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 05:55:24 PM EST

#7 for "fuck" #2 for "natalee" #1 for "natalee holloway"

Ranking higher than the official site every time.

___
I'm a pompous windbag, I take myself far too seriously, and I single-handedly messed up K5 by causing the fiction section to be created. --localroger

>Subject: your actionable website (3.00 / 12) (#332)
by kenmce on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:16:44 PM EST

>Subject: your actionable website
>From: John Fahs
>I am writing to inform you that i find your website,
>specifically the "fuck natalee holloway" piece,
>unacceptable.

That's nice.

>I request that you remove this horrible  travesty at once,
>as it is an affront to decent people  everywhere and
>totally unprotected by the first  amendment.

First time out on the Internets John?

>I am so disgusted, I do not have the words
>to tell you what a low opinion I have
>of you for  allowing this garbage.

Rough something out, we'll help you with the spelling.

>I think a formal complaint to  the FCC
>and other legal authorities is in order.

Yep,  first time out on the internets.  Stay away from anything with the letters "ghoatse" in it  John, OK?

>Subject: What IS WRONG WITH CARING ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE

I missed the part where the article said this.

>You should be happy that Natalee's
>Mom cares for her child.

And the reason I should care about either of them is...?

>I hope that the lord will have mercy on you  
>for saying that trying to hurt that mom.

I missed the part where the author tried to offend
the mother.  You actually read the article?

>I 'm a mom to and I would do the some for my children

That's nice, but not newsworthy.  Natalees not either.
 That was the point.

>From: jirwin1
>I can't believe you would allow such filth and arrogance
>on your website.

You might want to stay back in AOL for a while.  
Trust me on this.

>I'm referring to the inappropriate
>manner in which your writer is speaking
>of  Natalee Halloway.  

It's his language.  Talk to him about it.

>The language you allow is very inappropriate
>and you give a bad name to the internet in general.

So **THATS** who's been doing it!  
HERE!  COME HERE!  BAD AUTHOR!  BAD!

>You do however, need to clean up your
>website - it's nothing but FILTH!!!

Clean up?  How do you think we pay for the place?

you give a bad name to the internet in general. (3.00 / 7) (#335)
by Chewbacca Uncircumsized on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 11:37:39 PM EST

Haw haw, when will the t-shirts featuring this new slogan be available?

HE'S OBVIOUSLY NEVER SEEN (none / 0) (#376)
by IceTitan on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 12:25:43 AM EST

TUB GIRL OR GOATSEX BOY.
Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
[ Parent ]
The World is a Better Place for K5 (2.77 / 9) (#336)
by MichaelCrawford on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 12:01:17 AM EST

Thank you, you have restored my faith in the eventual salvation of our planet: the human race will one day be gone from it, as we are too stupid to ensure our continued existence.

Someday, the cockroaches and bacteria that survive us will rejoice that they lived to survive the extinction of humanity, and know that all their sufferring was not for naught.

Just wait until Bonita hears the news.

Maybe this is a good opportunity to pre-announce a google bomb I've been contemplating organizing:

The current #1 hit, his page at the Internet Movie Database, is only pagerank 6, so I don't think it will be that hard to achieve my proposed objective.

Thine in utter torment,

Mike


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


FUCK TOM CRUISE +1FP [NT] (none / 0) (#373)
by Smiley K on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 11:17:21 PM EST


-- Someone set up us the bomb.
[ Parent ]
If you want to fuck Tom Cruise (3.00 / 3) (#400)
by shinnin on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 10:40:58 AM EST

you know what you have to join.

[ Parent ]
GNAA (3) Encourage! [nt] (3.00 / 2) (#454)
by Smiley K on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 08:44:07 PM EST


-- Someone set up us the bomb.
[ Parent ]
Hypocrites (2.00 / 2) (#337)
by Mousky on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 12:26:55 AM EST

You post an article criticizing the mainstream media and their 24/7 coverage of this event, and what do you do? You feed the frenzy by posting another story on this issue. You are no better than the mainstream media you criticized in the first place. FYI, I have no issue with your "Fuck Natalee Holloway" article. This place is going to the dogs.

The irony (3.00 / 5) (#338)
by UnCivil Liberty on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 12:47:52 AM EST

Subject: NO BALLS! From: Anonymous Date: 07/08/2005 7:18 pm Yeah if you had any balls you'd have signed your name.

Donate: ACLU | EFF
Haw haw. (1.09 / 11) (#339)
by BJH on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 01:15:15 AM EST

It possibly involves foreign government corruption stupid--that's why.

Father in official position possibly covering up for his son = government corruption?

If you're living in the US, buddy, I'd think you'd be more worried about the "http://www.hereinreality.com/familyvalues.html">domestic government corruption, then.
--
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

Somebody zero that for me, would you? [nt] (none / 0) (#341)
by BJH on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 01:20:12 AM EST


--
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

[ Parent ]
Haw haw. (2.00 / 3) (#340)
by BJH on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 01:19:31 AM EST

It possibly involves foreign government corruption stupid--that's why.

Father in official position possibly covering up for his son = government corruption?

If you're living in the US, buddy, I'd think you'd be more worried about the domestic government corruption, then.
--
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

Too Late (3.00 / 2) (#345)
by unknownlamer on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 05:03:42 AM EST

It's #4 on Google right now.

Oops.



--
<vladl> I am reading the making of the atomic bong - modern science
a little perspective? (2.50 / 2) (#350)
by epicedium1 on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 07:09:17 AM EST

There will always be those who can't see beyond the personal suffering- perhaps you need a certain degree of perspective, even coldness, that your average "mother of three" simply doesn't have...

Just because they can't see past the suffering of the individual doesn't make them 'bad people' (even if they are so quick to downplay the american constitution and civil liberties)..

Let's just try and make sure that they stay out of politics.

Yes it does (none / 0) (#351)
by Nyarlathotep on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 07:43:25 AM EST

Just because they can't see past the suffering of the individual doesn't make them 'bad people' (even if they are so quick to downplay the american constitution and civil liberties).

Yes it does. To avoid Goodwin, I'll just say your a bad person if you can't see past the suffering of a few cells (fetus) and want to make a real live human (mother) suffer instead.

OTOH, I see a valid point to your last sentence. You can't make bad people into good people.. but maybe you can distract the bad people.. very very interesting.. its a time honored way for an intelegent elite (usualy a king) to keep his power.. I'll think about your suggestion in a democratic setting.
Campus Crusade for Cthulhu -- it found me!
[ Parent ]

exactly (none / 0) (#367)
by epicedium1 on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 06:42:54 PM EST

exactly =)

and you're right...  but I wonder, when do the "ignorant" people become "bad" people?  perhaps by the amount of damage they are able to do.

[ Parent ]

Heh. (3.00 / 16) (#353)
by skyknight on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 09:11:53 AM EST

FIRE YOUR ROTTEN "JOURNALIST"

Rusty, where's my god damned paycheck? I've got bills to pay, you know, you prick! If I don't get it in the next three days I'm going to press the caps-lock key. Don't make it come to this. You know I'll do it...



It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
It seems these letter writers (none / 0) (#355)
by tdamon on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 11:32:39 AM EST

don't know the difference between sympathy/empathy and real personal loss.


I got a sweater for Christmas. I really wanted a moaner or a screamer.
Now... (none / 1) (#356)
by Uber Banker 2 on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 11:34:22 AM EST

...her name has been removed, but your comment referring to her hasn't!

Oops, thought comments weren't indexed (none / 0) (#358)
by Captain Trips on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 12:04:23 PM EST

But it looks like I'm wrong. Guess I'll have to email rusty.

--
The fact that cigarette advertising works, makes me feel like maybe, just maybe, Santa Claus is real.—Sloppy
[ Parent ]
AAAAA :) (3.00 / 6) (#359)
by Roman on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 01:11:52 PM EST

Subject: FIRE YOUR ROTTEN "JOURNALIST" WHO WROTE SUCH AN UGLY ARTICLE
From: Nita
Date: 07/09/2005 1:35 pm

    ABOUT NATALEE HOLLOWAY...FIRE HIM OR HER.

    ALSO, HOW COULD YOU LET THIS STORY GO OUT USING THE WORD "FUCK."... WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?

    I WILL MAKE SURE I NEVER READ YOUR STUFF AGAIN...AND IF I MOVE TO YOUR CITY I'LL WORK TO PUT YOU OUT OF BUSINESS.

Obviously by a person who never ever read anything on this site before.  Awesome!  The all-capital style makes this particular message carry that much more insight.

Nevermind the capitals (none / 1) (#360)
by artis on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 01:46:11 PM EST

I want to move to Kuro5hin too!
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
That's it... now you've done it... (3.00 / 3) (#372)
by D Jade on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 09:31:37 PM EST

You are sooooo fired for that comment...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
Finally (3.00 / 2) (#383)
by KilljoyAZ on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 01:13:23 AM EST

A chance for promotion! Dibs on his stapler.

===
Creativitiy cannot be SPELT by over 98% of all American troops. - psychologist
[ Parent ]
I'll trade you (none / 0) (#390)
by D Jade on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 02:03:10 AM EST

Stapler for a hole punch...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
I want CTS's corner office <nt> (none / 0) (#412)
by The Diary Section on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 05:04:21 PM EST


Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
[ Parent ]
Ha ha! (2.40 / 5) (#366)
by starX on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 05:08:36 PM EST

I only got as far as...


Subject: your actionable website
From: John Fahs
Date: 07/06/2005 03:43 PM

I am writing to inform you that i find your website, specifically the "fuck natalee holloway" piece, unacceptable. I request that you remove this horrible travesty at once, as it is an affront to decent people everywhere and totally unprotected by the first amendment. I am so disgusted, I do not have the words to tell you what a low opinion I have of you for allowing this garbage. I think a formal complaint to the FCC and other legal authorities is in order.

And then couldn't stop laughing.  This guy is also probably one of the tools of the world that thinks it should be a crime to say anything negative about an elected official he happened to vote for.

"I like you starX, you disagree without sounding like a fanatic from a rock-solid point of view. Highfive." --WonderJoust

Perhaps, YHBT? (none / 0) (#375)
by IceTitan on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 12:21:44 AM EST

It's a good one if from the real world.
Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
[ Parent ]
Maybe... (none / 0) (#378)
by starX on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 12:32:48 AM EST

But in this crazy mixed up world I have a choice, either presume I'm being trolled a lot, or that most people are stupid and reactionary.  I tried really hard to give most folks the benefit of the doubt, but then I made the mistake of engaging too many in actual conversation.  

"I like you starX, you disagree without sounding like a fanatic from a rock-solid point of view. Highfive." --WonderJoust
[ Parent ]
I guess the preference between (none / 0) (#391)
by IceTitan on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 02:04:22 AM EST

trolls and idiots is as arbitrary as cats or dogs.
Personally, I prefer trolls.

And dogs.
Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
[ Parent ]

Okay about natalie...she's a loser or a whore (1.63 / 11) (#370)
by biggunsar on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 07:34:59 PM EST

Okay lets look at the proof. She's at a casino, meets not one, but 3 total strangers. She ends up leaving with them, DRUNK at the end of the night. Where were her freinds? Probably becasue they were either too smart to leave with 3 strangers, or natalie was a loser with no freinds, or a whore. They were smart enough not to go with natalie and 3 strange guys. And due to her leaving with 3 strangers that she knew less than 8 hours. I honestly feel no pity for her. Go ahead...try to justify her actions.

Blame the victim? (2.00 / 2) (#410)
by kero on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 04:59:25 PM EST

Is there any crime so horrible that someone won't say the victim had it coming so they have no sympathy for them? One of the perks of a civilized society is that no matter what you do people don't get to kidnap you and probably kill you. Unless you are Al Quida...

[ Parent ]
It's not a crime to be stupid (none / 1) (#415)
by smutt on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 05:13:50 PM EST

It bothers me that you would somehow try to portray Natalie as a someone who is responsible for her own victimness. We all make stupid decisions sometimes and we shouldn't have to worry about going out with random people and getting murdered. It doesn't justify making dumb decisions and people, young women in particular, need to be educated about making smart decisions. But Natalie is not in any way RESPONSIBLE for her own death. That kind of thinking is what makes rape victims not come forward. Either that or your post is just flame bait...

[ Parent ]
Are you serious? (none / 1) (#455)
by IncubatedVitamin on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 09:12:38 PM EST

If I decided to see how fast my car can go on a single lane windy backroad and then crashed and died.. then that would make ME responsible for my death.  Not the car maker.  Not the people who paved or designed the road.  Me.

Why in the world would you leave a casino with 3 strangers.  If she was with classmates, as I hear she was, then she should have stayed with them.  Maybe her classmates could be held partly responsible since they may have seen her stagger off with 3 random guys and not done anything to stop her.. But seriously, if thats what happened, she went off looking to have some gangbanging fun but with the wrong people.

As far as rape victims or any other victims for that matter.  If you put yourself in a high-risk situation and don't come forward, then you probably are too fucking ashamed to come forward.  Who wants to tell their parents or best friends that they did something stupid which lead to an unfortunate event happening to them.

Its a lesson of life.  Unfortunately for Natalee Holloway, she learned at the expensive of her own.  LIKE COUNTLESS OTHERS WHO ARE NEVER HEARD OF OUTSIDE OF THEIR LOCAL COMMUNITY

[ Parent ]

Gold! (2.80 / 5) (#371)
by taste on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 09:30:33 PM EST

I notice how the people who write hatemails to a particular topic always seem to share a similiar habit of being obnoxiously stupid.

Thank God for them though, we all need comic relief every now and then.


The faults of others (1.33 / 3) (#397)
by Harvey Anderson on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 10:08:21 AM EST

have no bearing on the fact that you are a dork.

[ Parent ]
uhh ... (none / 1) (#374)
by elotiumq32 on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 11:29:30 PM EST

Hi, I've been a kuro5hin reader for a few years now. I infrequently comment and have never submitted a story. Until today, sorry to say I wasn't really aware of the whole Natalee Holloway story. I'm still not aware of all the details and am not particularly interested in looking into it. It struck me as yet another sensational story about yet another missing young white woman/girl. There are a lot of reasons why I think it's silly for reporters & news consumers to hype stories like this when other more relevant and pressing stories need to be told, and while I agree with the general complaint this kuro5hin story offers (your delivery was a bit on the callous side, but essentially I agree, who cares), I can't help but point out the irony that you are helping to feed the hype by virtue of your sensational proclamation "F*ck N...." Furthermore, does kuro5hin's credibility drop down a step now? Beats me. Guess it depends on what you mean by "credibility". Interested in hearing thoughts on this. Hopefully they will be a bit more well-formed than "go f*ck yourself, *ssmonkey"
______________ yeah whatever
This site has no credibility (none / 1) (#385)
by Spendocrat on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 01:38:42 AM EST

And that is great. It means you have to read the articles and the comments before deciding if you're reading something interesting and (maybe!) insightful, or if you're reading something down-right crazy.

[ Parent ]
no credibility, means great? (none / 0) (#387)
by elotiumq32 on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 01:51:49 AM EST

I'm not so sure I agree - and again, I'm not saying that I know what 'credibility' for something like kuro5hin should mean.  However, if I consider traditional news sources, I usually don't plug into those that I think lack credibility.  Why waste time?
-
______________ yeah whatever
[ Parent ]
Credibility: over-rated (none / 1) (#429)
by Spendocrat on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 12:21:12 AM EST

If you only go by credibility I wonder if you're really thinking about what you're reading. Is it plausible? What's missing from the article?

Are you reading different sources for corroboration? Three papers posting the same AP/CP article don't count.

The lack of credibility of the site makes it great. Sure it takes precious time away from porn and video games to research, read comments and think about an article, but that doesn't seem like a bad trade-off - in moderation.

[ Parent ]

fuckth yon nat the brat-the story was spot on (1.14 / 7) (#386)
by veasun on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 01:51:45 AM EST

I think she probably is being, butt fucked, at this very moment. Oh, I am sorry. I apologize. I really do. I see her brain damaged mum is apologizing to Aruba, now that she had her vicious 1st. amendment say. Anyway, I am glad the spoilt bitch is off the news radar.

Between the two Natalee Holloway stories... (2.75 / 4) (#388)
by lordDogma on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 01:58:45 AM EST

we have some 700+ comments, more than all the other front page stories combined. So maybe this crap is what the American public wants afterall.

Hi, me too: (2.42 / 7) (#395)
by slaida1 on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 07:07:45 AM EST

I want to let everobody know that:
- I don't care
- I think outraged stupid people are funny. Sometimes dangerous but funny.
- K5 rocks
- What happened to [some random person] is hobble
- What happens here is tebble
- We're part of the media now
- I'm loving every moment of it
- What a way to spin a tragedy around, I think we're on to some new way to make comedy here.
- Even if you don't find all this amusing now, I'm sure we'll all laugh at it after few years.
- After this show quiets down, some journalist will search and find out how much profit did Nataly's family turn out of this.
- If stupid flamers have some slogan, it could be "we're mad as hell and we're going to take this a lot more" because secretly they're soo enjoying this.

The really sick thing is... (none / 1) (#398)
by redeye on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 10:10:55 AM EST

...the google ads on this story.

I didnt mind the story, nor this one as I am all for freedom of expression and I enjoy reading alternate takes on things.

But the sad thing is someone (er, rusty?) is making money from the dissapearance of the little girl, through the google ads on this story trying to sell child protection related products and services.

Welcome to Capitalisim, try the veal! <NT> (2.66 / 3) (#409)
by kero on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 04:53:27 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Tell me... (3.00 / 2) (#413)
by The Diary Section on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 05:07:43 PM EST

which news networks without adverts have been showing Natalee updates 24/7 lately?
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
[ Parent ]
Allow me to reitterate my previous contention (1.25 / 4) (#416)
by undermyne on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 06:12:49 PM EST

Rusty used a sock puppet to write the original story, knowing full well that it would top out google. It was designed to up the ad rates and traffic.

I say again, fucking brilliant.


"Coffee makes me go poop." thekubrix
[ Parent ]
ISTTT (none / 0) (#440)
by fleece on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 08:32:01 AM EST

[I subscribe to this theory]



I feel like some drunken crazed lunatic trying to outguess a cat ~ Louis Winthorpe III
[ Parent ]
If only [nt] (none / 1) (#461)
by rusty on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 12:47:54 AM EST



____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Tell that to the media (none / 1) (#501)
by GhostfacedFiddlah on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 07:17:52 AM EST

They're making tons off this poor girl as it is.

[ Parent ]
Are these representative? (1.66 / 3) (#402)
by MoebiusStreet on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 11:23:44 AM EST

Are these comments representative of the "protesters"? I mean, do they all tend to have such poor spelling, grammar, and narrow view of the world?

The way these letters were written, and their substance -- either entirely lacking, or tissue-thin at best -- reveal quite a bit about the way "those people" think.

Not representative (3.00 / 2) (#460)
by rusty on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 12:47:02 AM EST

They are the entirety of the emails, not just representative ones. Ok, I got a couple more since I stopped updating this, but they've been pretty much the same.

You have to make some allowances for the sort of person who just randomly emails the first address they find on some website though. I also routinely get emails from AOLers asking things like "How do I use Word?"

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Bad pun in title (none / 1) (#403)
by leoPetr on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 11:58:59 AM EST

The problem with the article is that its title is an unconscionable pun given the circumstances of the case. The intended meaning is "Enough with Natalee Holloway", but there's an inflammatory undercurrent of "I command you to have sexual intercourse with Natalee Holloway", which is ungood given the circumstances of her disappearance.
--
Is this a pants-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
bah (none / 0) (#408)
by benna on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 03:38:52 PM EST

Do you seriously think anyone would make that mistake?
-
"It is not how things are in the world that is mystical, but that it exists." -Ludwig Wittgenstein
[ Parent ]
Ummm? (none / 0) (#414)
by LO313 on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 05:09:24 PM EST

You interact with humans on a regular basis right? There are too many morons out there who would read it as "Have sex with..." as opposed to "Enough...". Come on! There are so many naive people out there who interpret things literally. Look at Fundementalist Christians and Environmentalists! HA!

[ Parent ]
They don't really misinterpret things (3.00 / 2) (#420)
by benna on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 07:09:49 PM EST

They just pretend to in order to further their agendas.
-
"It is not how things are in the world that is mystical, but that it exists." -Ludwig Wittgenstein
[ Parent ]
True (none / 0) (#444)
by LO313 on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 12:36:50 PM EST

There are people who will do whatever it takes to further their own cause but there are dumbasses. I have met them and I'm sure you have. They just drive me nuts. Even my own mother. She doesn't believe second hand smoke might be dangerous! Its smoke! Smoke and smells are small particles of the material in question. Now I think second hand smoke isn't that dangerous but if you're subjected to it constantly, it could have an effect. I had to explain to her what smoke is for christ sake! And what smells are and how it works. Maybe I expect to much. Sorry I needed to get that off my chest.

[ Parent ]
would anybody make that mistake? (none / 1) (#510)
by tgibbs on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 02:26:01 PM EST

Do you seriously think anyone would make that mistake?

That was the interpretation that occurred to me first. Of course, a glance at the article indicated that the all purpose part of speech was being used in the sense of "Fuck this." But I still wonder if the author was intentionally using that initial misimpression as a "hook" to attract readers--in which case it may have been more effective than he intended, overpowering his actual message (which was reasonable if not particularly novel or profound).

[ Parent ]

Ungood? (none / 0) (#417)
by spooked on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 06:24:41 PM EST

Where the hell do you live? Airstrip One?

Seriously.
[ Parent ]
make that doubleplusungood [n/t] (none / 0) (#477)
by skavookie on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 11:36:36 AM EST



[ Parent ]
First off, no it's not a crime to be stupid. (1.44 / 9) (#418)
by biggunsar on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 06:38:56 PM EST

But if you play with matches and get burned....what would everyone say?... YOU GOT IT, served you right. You play with guns carelessly and shoot yourself. People are going to say "well you should have been careful". natalie left with 3 guys who were TOTAL STRANGERS in a foreign place. If she's not fucking stupid, I have no idea who is. And if she got killed (which she is, and is in the bowels of the aruba fishy's) who fault is it! Don't try to play "blame the victim" bullshit. If the victim is snatched on a street corner on his/her way from school. Then I really feel sorry for them, because it is entirely not thier fault. If the victim was raped from someone she got in a car with everyday...FRY THE BASTARD that did it. But...This was entirely natalies fault...PERIOD. If she had one fucking ounce of brains, she would be home right now. So put your "don't blame the victim crap" on someone else, you fucking morons. You must beleive in womens liberation too huh. Here's a newsflash..women can't do anything a man can do. That's a fact, and that's just how it is. Accept it. Just like men can't give birth. We just accept it. We dont' whine, moan and bitch about it, and start parades okay.

I agree.. (2.00 / 2) (#419)
by kcidx on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 06:47:39 PM EST

...except you kinda go too far.

Yes, she was a dumbass to get in the car with them. But it's not entirely her fault she got likely raped, then killed. It's entirely the fault of the people who did it. It's only a little bit her fault for putting herself in such a position that it was so easy to do so, and appearantly get away with it.

[ Parent ]

It's entirely her fault. (2.00 / 2) (#421)
by biggunsar on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 07:11:55 PM EST

You can't even say "it's the guys fault" of COURSE IT IS. But natalie is more to blame. She gave them the opportunity. But because she "just made a tiny mistake" im sorry, getting into a car on a foreign island is NOT a tiny mistake in my book. Tiny mistake would be getting drunk. A tiny mistake would be cutting your finger. If you all can't see that, getting into a car with total strangers, is about the biggest mistake you "can" make. Well then....ask natalie. oh wait a min...you can't...she's dead because she made that "tiny mistake" 8\ Sorry, but in my books, that's not a tiny mistake. That is a mistake that can cost you, your life. If you consider that little. Then so be it. Then you are reckless. And I will be DAMNED if i feel sorry for someone who purposely puts themselves in that position.

[ Parent ]
Well... (2.00 / 2) (#422)
by kcidx on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 07:54:06 PM EST

... "But natalie is more to blame." is total bullshit.

She didn' ask to be raped, or mudered. The people who raped and murdered her committed the crime, and are solely responsible for it. She acted stupidly, but acting stupid isn't an invitation to be raped and murdered.

I've given girls I've just met rides home, and I didn't rape or murder them. Civilized, non rapist/muderers, would have done the same. However, rapists, murderes, CRIMINALS, commit crimes - and are responsible for them.

You're basically making the same tired, misogynistic, "I raped her because she wore tight clothes and was asking for it" defense. And it's, well, bullshit.

[ Parent ]

that's not bullshit (none / 1) (#424)
by biggunsar on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 08:42:19 PM EST

what fucking world do you live in? i live in the real world. And the real world is...you are responsible for your actions. And your actions can get you killed if you make stupid decisions. I don't walk on the edge of buildings..why? Because I know I could fall and die. So should it be the landlords fault that he didn't put up rails when i walk on the edge cause i'm too fucking stupid to stay off the edge of buildings??!! Give your head a shake. And yes, i think if women who wear provocative clothing get raped, it is thier fault. I would never rape a women who wore "tight clothes" but there are others out there, that would. So if you go to a club and wear slutty clothes, you are a slut. Even if you ain't. Because people "PERCEIVE" you as that way. If you wear provocative clothing...be prepared for the backlash from dirty looks, to indifference, to oogles to rape. That is the real world. Just like when you get robbed you run to the nearest guy in a blue uniform with a badge. Now wouldn't you be fucking dumbstruck if he stated "just because I dress like a police man, doesn't mean I AM a police man" the real world....try it sometime. And any women that gets into a strangers vehicle, is playing russian roulette. Gee, poor girl..she didn't know the gun was loaded 8\ It's not her fault. BULLSHIT..go sing to the choir. It was natalies fault plain and simple. And she paid for her mistake. Still think its' okay to accept rides from strangers...im a big guy 210 pounds for fuck sakes and am VERY leary of taking rides from strangers because all it takes is a 120 pound guy with a knife or gun and your ride is over. So why was natalie above the "law". She wasn't. And now she's dead. And that should be a lesson to all of us. Don't be a natalie....dont' accept rides from strangers.

[ Parent ]
Exactly. (none / 1) (#425)
by kcidx on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 08:55:35 PM EST

And the real world is...you are responsible for your actions.

Especially when your actions include murdering or raping someone.

[ Parent ]

huh? (none / 0) (#427)
by soulsoldier on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 10:57:00 PM EST

Lets use your building exapmle. Guys raping careless girl is like landlord pushing carless man over the edge.
That orange is a lovely shade of bitch.
[ Parent ]
your wrong in your example (none / 1) (#442)
by biggunsar on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 12:14:25 PM EST

becuase if im on my deck and sitting or standing looking out across my balcony and my landlord comes and pushes me. He is in the wrong. Since I have not been reckless. If I had been walking on the ledge, both parties would have been wrong. But because i was not standing on the ledge, i did nothing wrong. It was all the landlords fault. Natalie put herself in that situation. PERIOD. So both parties are wrong. But if she had not put herself in that position, as I not walking on the ledge. When that murder happened. The murderer would be totally at fault. So who's fault is it really? Someone who walks on ledges who will eventually fall. Or the landlord?! (in other words, who's more at fault. Natalie who seems to take risks, and I am sure this isn't a one time risk for her. Or her attackers for being given the advantage?) since it's obvious that natalie would have kept "walking the ledge" until she fell. It was only a matter of time, and chance. Well...guess what

[ Parent ]
You are such an immoral dumbass. [n/t] (2.00 / 2) (#445)
by kcidx on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 01:38:06 PM EST



[ Parent ]
You're still an idiot (2.33 / 3) (#448)
by kero on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:19:46 PM EST

You still can't blame the victim. You are free to make the assinine assumption that she is a dirty whore and that makes what happened to her inevitable, but it doesn't make it right.

If someone pushes you off a cliff that person is 100% responsible. If you do something immoral and wrong, it isn't mitigated because your victim made it easy. You don't get to steal something because it would be easy to get away with it. You can't seem to separate the idea of being responsible for your own actions and the idea that no one has the right to kidnap and kill you, not matter what. They are two different things and will always be two different things.

[ Parent ]
Not quite (none / 0) (#476)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:40:30 AM EST

Anyone who pushes this nutcase off a cliff is doing a public service and I'll personally organise a media campaign for that person to receive a knighthood.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Just don't complain... (none / 0) (#493)
by artis on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 04:27:10 PM EST

...when said nutcase kills you in self defense then.
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
As long as he's held responsible by courts (none / 0) (#500)
by HollyHopDrive on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 06:57:36 AM EST

I won't come back and haunt him.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

MR. KNOW IT ALL (none / 1) (#450)
by one4greenday on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:47:45 PM EST

Now i'm wondering what agency do you work for? You seem to think you know everything about the system and what is considered wreckless - who do you work for? And SERIOUSLY if you don't think that men bitch, whine, moan, etc. . . you must be an absolute idiot. you're sitting here pissing and moaning about something you know nothing about - and what do you know about child birth? you are suck a waste of air and space - i just hope someone catches you walking on "the ledge" because you, my friend, are not better than the rest of us. you are just better at lying to your self and thinking you're special.

[ Parent ]
you fucking turd! (none / 0) (#538)
by nostromo11 on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:19:16 PM EST

neither are you better than the rest. freaking turd! who gives you a right to pass judgements on this poor soul? he says 'natalie took risks, paid for it' nothing to do with her gender. feminist freakshow!

[ Parent ]
feminist freakshow: Clarification (none / 0) (#539)
by nostromo11 on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:21:47 PM EST

by the way, turd, before you go off on your own tangent, here are my definitions of a feminist and a feminist freakshow. one makes a lot of sense, the other defies sense. you, turd, fall in the latter category.

[ Parent ]
You're a nutcase (none / 0) (#474)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:31:07 AM EST

I'm going to get into my car tonight and drive to my friend's house. The act of being on the road makes a car accident possible. So is it my fault if some bastard like you comes zooming down the road on the wrong side, high on drink and drugs, and smashes into me?

I am a woman. Leaving my house puts me at the remote risk of being abducted and raped. So if I don't stay locked in my house all day, is it my fault if I go out and get sprung upon?

You sick fuck.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

listen freak! (none / 0) (#537)
by nostromo11 on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:19:02 PM EST

there is a difference between taking a small risk and A BIG ONE (capitals because your man-hater-turd-mind won't comprehend anything else). TAKE A BIG RISK, you may FALL; as so many MEN have responded in this thread, there is a difference between accidents, and PUTTING YOURSELF IN THE WAY OF HARM; a distinction your man hating turd mind doesn't really comprehend.

[ Parent ]
You are absolutely crazy (none / 0) (#543)
by HollyHopDrive on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 03:46:38 PM EST

You think I hate men because I want rapists held entirely accountable? You fail to grasp that seemingly small risks can have surprisingly huge consequences? You think a car accident is a small risk? You think crimes are mitigated if they're easy to commit?

You sick, stupid fuck. I sure as hell hope you're typing this rabid filth with your toes as you sit straitjacketed in a lunatic asylum. That's where you belong. Actually, six feet under inside a pine box is where you belong, but incarcerated and away from all the decent people will do.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

"Responsible for YOUR actions" (none / 0) (#439)
by HollyHopDrive on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 07:41:14 AM EST

Natalee didn't rape and kill herself. She is not responsible for the crimes committed AGAINST HER. Yes, she is stupid to have put herself in that situation, but she is not guilty of them.

I myself would kill a man who blamed a rape victim because she wore a short skirt. So you'd better pack up that belief of yours because then you'll be to blame if I come and shoot you.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

You put yourself in a position (none / 0) (#463)
by destroy all monsters on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 06:43:02 AM EST

you deserve the consequences. At the very least you've earned them.

Now before you start arguing this, remember this is precisely your point of view in regards to men and pregnancy.

That said, the original poster stated that both sides were culpable for their actions. Which I agree. So no, you can't prosecute stupidity but there's no need to pity it either.

If she'd been driving and killed herself and others I rather think you'd take a slightly different tack about this.

BTW do we know she was raped yet? I didn't know that they'd recovered the body. Then again I'm really up on this issue to the extent K5 brings it up.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

I'm a little confused (none / 0) (#467)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:42:01 AM EST

I thought you were the one who didn't think men should have to take the consequences of having sex.

At any rate, it's not comparable, because consensual sex is a choice with known risks, and you yourself carried out the act that brought these consequences. Natalee's going off with men did not bring these consequences. Their choice to rape and kill her brought these consequences.

We're assuming she's been raped and killed - maybe she hasn't been. The British press doesn't care about this, so I'm just seeing it when I dip into American news sites. At any rate, it's a hypothetical situation.

Of course I'd have a different tack if she'd been driving, because then she would have caused the accident. But this kind of logic says that if someone slams into her as she drives, she deserves part of the blame for being in a car and making a collision possible when someone else hits her.

Sure, she was stupid. But since when is stupidity a crime that warrants this kind of punishment?

I don't like the way the original poster says that women who dress in a certain way are at fault if they're raped. That's pure misogyny. By his logic, he's partly at fault if I come over and kill him for expressing these views. After all, that's what he's made me want to do.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

We *are* talking natural consequences here (none / 0) (#502)
by destroy all monsters on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 07:39:34 AM EST

"I thought you were the one who didn't think men should have to take the consequences of having sex.

At any rate, it's not comparable, because consensual sex is a choice with known risks, and you yourself carried out the act that brought these consequences. Natalee's going off with men did not bring these consequences. Their choice to rape and kill her brought these consequences."

It is entirely comparable. Your position on men taking the consequences of having to pay for a child is based on human laws and a flawed attempt at balance. However it is a *natural* consequence that women have to have said child or abort.

Getting into a car with persons unknown is a choice with known risks. One of them being death.If she hadn't gotten into the car she wouldn't be dead.It is a natural consequence. End of story.

"Of course I'd have a different tack if she'd been driving, because then she would have caused the accident. But this kind of logic says that if someone slams into her as she drives, she deserves part of the blame for being in a car and making a collision possible when someone else hits her"

You take your chances when driving but you're deliberately twisting the logic. Stupid thing one: getting so drunk as to be out of control;stupid thing two: abandoning her friends and chaperones;stupid thing three: getting into a car with unknowns. Where precisely is there no culpability for her own actions? Regardless of whether she's the victim or the perpetrator she's still responsible for what she did. And what she did put her in her grave just as much as anyone else's actions. I don't think you're the type of person that's just saying this because she's a woman. At least I hope not.

"Sure, she was stupid. But since when is stupidity a crime that warrants this kind of punishment?"

Stupidity *is* a death sentence. See Darwin Awards. Failure to take into account consequences of your actions is also a potential death sentence.The world is not a cushy pillow for spoiled rich children's pampered asses anymore than it is for the rest of ours.Quite frankly that she was taken out of the gene pool I see as a good thing at this point. If it serves as a cautionary tale to others - even better.

"I don't like the way the original poster says that women who dress in a certain way are at fault if they're raped."

I think it shows a lack of understanding of what rape means as a crime and what the motives are.

" By his logic, he's partly at fault if I come over and kill him for expressing these views."

When one says provocative things there often is a backlash. That goes both ways. One always takes that into account that there's going to be a reaction to whatever one does. Being prudent and mindful about it is all we can do.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

Ok (none / 0) (#504)
by HollyHopDrive on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 09:31:45 AM EST

I don't want to start the whole men/women/babies debate again. I know what your stance is on it, you know mine, and I think it's going in circles, so I'm just going to take your thoughts on it and chew over them, even though they have not convinced me. I'm not starting them again here.

Her death is not a "natural consequence." It's not a natural death. Sure, had she not done it she wouldn't be dead. Had she not gone to Aruba she wouldn't be dead. But getting into the car is not what killed her. Other people, acting on choices they made, are what killed her. That is not her fault. She had not sealed her fate by getting drunk. She had not sealed her fate by getting in the car. If those men had been normal human beings, they would have taken her home safe.

Once again: She did not die from getting into a car. She died from being attacked and forced by THIRD PARTIES. This is why it is murder and not death by misadventure or accident. The car did not crash. She did not choke on her own vomit. She was murdered by third parties, and it was their actions that killed her. She is not guilty of her own murder in ANY TERMS.

Now by this guy's terms, a woman who dresses provocatively is partly to blame if she's raped. I get a foul taste in my mouth dealing with this kind of attitude but I'll try to control myself. Let me rephrase this vile misogyny on his part: a woman is to blame if a man desires her and she says no. I don't mind telling you there are quite a lot of men I pass on the streets whom I wouldn't mind stroking and squeezing, but I have absolutely no right to do so. If they are shirtless, that still does not give me a right to do anything more than look.

To put it another way: if you want to do something, it's not entirely your fault if you do it. I wasn't brought up that way. I was brought up to realise I always had a choice. I was also brought up to realise whose choices it was that needed punishing. Natalee's choice to get drunk and get in the car was stupid, but she didn't die of being drunk or being in a car. Her attackers' choices to assault her are what killed her. She died at their hands. She is, therefore, stupid but entirely guiltless, and no sane judge will take the opportunity to commit the crime as mitigation for it.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

If that's true (none / 0) (#505)
by destroy all monsters on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 10:25:06 AM EST

then her not getting into the car wouldn't have gotten her killed.

As stated elsewhere it isn't a mitigating factor in a court of law. However, she put herself in that position. That doesn't make the perpetrators blameless but had she made another choice she wouldn't be dead. Ergo too stupid to live.

"She had not sealed her fate by getting in the car."

In fact, she did. What you're getting at is there is some admittedly slim possibility that some ditzy, cash-flashing, drunken moron not been killed but frankly the percentage is quite low.She absolutely contributed to her own death whether or not "guilt" is the word hanging you up or not.

"Let me rephrase this vile misogyny on his part: a woman is to blame if a man desires her and she says no."

I don't judge what he wrote as misogynous partially because I'm not looking for it. He is completely wrong about the nature of rape and that I've mentioned that already.

"I don't mind telling you there are quite a lot of men I pass on the streets whom I wouldn't mind stroking and squeezing, but I have absolutely no right to do so. If they are shirtless, that still does not give me a right to do anything more than look."

You know I don't know that that many men would necessarily have a problem with it - at least if it led anywhere. If they were gay they might be pretty miffed though.

"To put it another way: if you want to do something, it's not entirely your fault if you do it. I wasn't brought up that way. I was brought up to realise I always had a choice."

I don't understand what you mean by this.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

With the greatest respect (none / 0) (#540)
by HollyHopDrive on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 03:27:32 PM EST

what you're saying is completely insane. Yes, she might have lived had she made another choice. Just like the people killed in London the other week would have lived had they gone into work by Thameslink. By your logic, they are partly to blame for going on the Tube when we all knew there was a chance of a terror attack.

Your "logic" is a complete fallacy. Yes, we all make choices, and we all know of near misses where had we made another choice, we'd have been better off, but factors beyond our control prevented it. Our destinies are part choice and part fortune - and part other people's choices.

I've just got back from holiday in Croatia. I sprained my ankle nastily going down a step. Ooh, but I shouldn't have gone to Croatia, that led to the accident. Or I shouldn't have gone down that step, rather walked in the road. Except if I'd gone to Italy I might have been kidnapped, or contracted food poisoning, or if I'd walked in the road I might have been hit by a car. We will simply never know.

Natalee was murdered. She was stupid to get into the car, but crimes do not lessen because they were easy. She is not dead because she went to Aruba. She is not dead because she got into a car. She is dead because other people, acting entirely on their own free will, raped and murdered her, and while I oppose capital punishment, in theory I believe they should swing for it. Blaming the victim through some endlessly convoluted divination of cause and effect does not cut it when the only reason she died was because she was strangled or had a knife in her throat.

Had she gone to Brazil and been murdered there, would you blame her and say that had she gone to Aruba she might have survived? Her choices may have put her in the face of danger, just as I took a risk flying in an aeroplane today, but her choices do NOT, repeat, do NOT, mitigate the evil choices made by the attackers who are solely to blame for her death.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

I know I said I wouldn't get in your way, but... (none / 0) (#559)
by artis on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 03:35:47 PM EST

I've just got back from holiday in Croatia. I sprained my ankle nastily going down a step. Ooh, but I shouldn't have gone to Croatia, that led to the accident.
No, that means you should pay attention to where and how you put your feet, it does not get much more obvious than that.
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
No, no, no (none / 0) (#562)
by HollyHopDrive on Tue Jul 26, 2005 at 06:50:29 AM EST

If I'd gone to Italy, that step wouldn't have been there, and I wouldn't have a beautiful purple ankle right now.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Attack (none / 0) (#513)
by artis on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 03:21:21 PM EST

Her attackers' choices to assault her are what killed her.
Is there any positive proof she was attacked? I can't even find any news stories about her beeing found.
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
We're all making assumptions (none / 0) (#544)
by HollyHopDrive on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 03:51:39 PM EST

that she has been raped and killed, as it's most likely. It may yet prove not to be so. I hope that happens.

The discussion became very hypothetical a long time ago, and we can continue these debates even if she's found safe and well. You are behind the times.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

By the by (none / 0) (#517)
by destroy all monsters on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:14:15 AM EST

on the men/women/babies topic the last post I did about that was to ask what new paradigm you'd put in place and how you got to the decisions you'd made. I deliberately avoided re-hashing to the best of my ability.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]
You live in the world of a potential rapist... (2.00 / 2) (#451)
by kcidx on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:04:31 PM EST

....a world that has brought you up to be grossly misogynistic, and generally somewhat immoral.


what fucking world do you live in? i live in the real world. And the real world is...you are responsible for your actions. And your actions can get you killed if you make stupid decisions.

Here's the real world. The judge would find the rapists/murders of natalie guilty of rape and murder, because that is WHAT THEY DID. They would find Natalie guilty of NOTHING, because she didn't committ a crime.

In your world, we would all need to stay in guarded, bullet proof homes all the time, because going out on the street could be considered an invitation to get shot, since in your world the victim is to blame just as much as the actual criminal.

In other words, your world is very scary, doesn't match up with social conventions, and I wouldn't want my wife, daughter, or any female friends of mine to go anywhere near you. In fact, I would say you should probably be registered as a sexual preditor, considering you can't understand what's wrong with what was done to natalie. I think that probably hints at larger psychological problems on your part that, while they may not have been acted on by you yet, could be at any time - since your worldview is so terribly, terribly skewed.

[ Parent ]

One more thing... (2.00 / 2) (#452)
by kcidx on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:23:38 PM EST

...here's where you really go wrong...like, crazy wrong.

So if you go to a club and wear slutty clothes, you are a slut. Even if you ain't. Because people "PERCEIVE" you as that way. If you wear provocative clothing...be prepared for the backlash from dirty looks, to indifference, to oogles to rape.

You see, even if a girl were a total slut, and lived up to every one of societies definitions of a slut, having crazy CONSENTUAL casual sex every night of the week, she may understand the looks, and the oogles. Because after all, that's what provocative clothing is meant to attract. She might even understand the hoots, cat calls, hollers, etc...

BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN SHE IS ASKING TO BE RAPED. "Sluts" are into consenual sex, no one is into being raped.

Thats why it frightens me you have this so rationalized to yourself as it being the girls fault. You in fact referred to it as "totally" her fault.

At some point, the dudes that raped and killed natalie used force to prevent her from leaving. Thus it doesn't matter if she got in their car or not, they might have just as well grabbed her off the street - because they used FORCE to prevent her from acting the way she wanted to. They could have waited until she walked out of the bar, and thrown her into the car. It doesn't matter, because at some point THEY FORCED HER INTO SEX, AND THEN KILLED HER.

So there is no difference. Rape is rape. The crime itself uses force (or, drugs) to subdue the victim.

So really your comments are in defense of rape, and murder. They are really crazy rationalizations of rape and murder, that are most typically heard by rapists and/or murderers while on the defense stand. And that's really just pretty sick on your part...

[ Parent ]

IAWTP (none / 0) (#473)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:06:34 AM EST

and if the guy who wrote the loony parent post isn't a troll, he's an insane misogynist who thinks perceptions of people are the reality of people. I perceive him as a mad, woman-hating git and if I come over to garrotte him it'll be his fault for saying things that made me want to. His logic.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

you know what you brainless twit. (none / 0) (#524)
by biggunsar on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 06:01:07 AM EST

YOUR RIGHT. if you come over to my house and garrett me, becuase of what I have said IT IS MY FAULT. Maybe you are finally getting it. I will spell it out for you, since you can't think beyond gradeschool. I said something in this forum. For whatever that may be, I have accepted responsibility for my posting. Knowing full well it might piss someone off. Maybe piss someone off so much they might come and kill me. No matter how slim the chances are, im smart enough to know that no matter how whacky....it could happen. Yet i take responsibility for that action. ALthough if you do come over and kill me, its your fault (i have never said it was not natalies killers fault).* now read this and understand brainless...> IT"S ALSO MY FAULT< for posting a post in this forum which could lead to the above fictional event. You getting it yet dipshit?!

[ Parent ]
Fantastic! (none / 1) (#552)
by HollyHopDrive on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 06:24:12 AM EST

An illiterate who can't type telling me I'm stupid! Great! Now I've got it in writing, just tell me where you live and I'll come over and kill you. The world is better off without rapist-defending, misogynistic, moronic twats like you.

Oh wait, you say it WOULDN'T be your fault? You mean I'm NOT allowed to kill you just because I want to? Then how do you square this with saying Natalee's to blame for being raped and killed? Or is it only when you're a victim that criminals are suddenly held responsible?

Here are the questions, loser. Answer them.

1) If Natalee gets into a car and by being present makes men want to rape and kill her, who's responsible for her death?

2) If you show your stupidity and illiteracy to the world online and make me want to kill you, and I do come and kill you, who's responsible for your death?


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Goodness gracious (none / 1) (#523)
by biggunsar on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 05:41:21 AM EST

I am not condoning rape you tards. But if you avoid all the signals that rapists thrive on. Then you LESSEN your chances of rape. For example. Girl wearing baggy clothes, and looking like she just got out of bed. walking her dog in her neighborhood of middle class area.She gets raped. Another girl wearing super slutty clothes, acting provocative and doing it in a rape high environment (bar, or club yada yada) she gets raped ARE YOU GOING TO FUCKING TELL ME, the second women didn't do anything wrong. Cause if that is what you are saying, then your on super glue. You must take accountability for your actions. You cannot honestly believe that you can go around the world doing whatever the fuck you please and not expect to pay the piper. Simple fact is, I would feel very very sorry and outrage for the first girl. Feel very little pity for the second one.

[ Parent ]
Whatever, Mr. Lack-of-Moral-Clarity (none / 0) (#525)
by kcidx on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 10:00:07 AM EST

Another girl wearing super slutty clothes, acting provocative and doing it in a rape high environment (bar, or club yada yada) she gets raped ARE YOU GOING TO FUCKING TELL ME, the second women didn't do anything wrong.

That's a question, not a statement...so you should use one of these, "?".

And to answer your question, yes. That's exactly what I'm going to tell you. She didn't do anything wrong at all. And she definately didn't ask, or deserve, to be raped.

You may not be condoning rape, but you are rationalizing it to yourself in a manner that blames the victim, when it is the assailant that is totally at fault. You're providing, the admittedly rather weak, framework to justify rape. Furthermore it betrays your own msyogyny.

I don't care if the woman was walking around totally naked, that's her perogative. WHEN YOU RAPE HER, YOU VIOLATE HER, AND ITS YOUR FAULT, NOT HERS. It's a crime of control, and you are removing the girls control of the situation, against her will. Otherwise, it wouldn't be rape, it would just be another slutty girl, having casual drunken bar sex.

Jesus your mother must be proud. Have you tried explaining to the women in your life that rape is really a two way street where all these sluts are walking around begging for it? If you have, I'm guessing it didn't go over too well.

Cause if that is what you are saying, then your on super glue.

Hmm...doesn't seem like it. I'm not really stuck at all...maybe it's some bad glue.

[ Parent ]

Learn to read please, it's not that hard (none / 0) (#526)
by artis on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 10:55:51 AM EST

He isn't condoning rape nor is he rationalizing it. Am I rationalizing car theft when I say you should lock your car door? Would you think that letting your car unlocked in an area where lots of cars are stolen is stupid? Would that make the potential thiefs any less guilty?
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
Yes he is. (none / 0) (#527)
by kcidx on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 11:59:39 AM EST

Learn to read please, it's not that hard

Pot, meet kettle, you're both black!

Go check the post he wrote called "It's entirely her fault", containing the line "You can't even say "it's the guys fault" of COURSE IT IS. But natalie is more to blame."

That's called BULLSHIT. He IS rationalizing rape, perhaps not condoning it, but rationalizing it. Do you not notice the similarities between what he is saying, and what rapists say on the defense stand? "She was a slut. She dressed provacatively." Whatever. It's taking the blame, and reassigning it from the person responsible (THE RAPIST) to the victim. It demeans the character of the victim, and perpetuates the mysogynistic delusions that run rampant through this society. No rape victim was "asking for it", either verbally, or by what she was wearing. That's a rationalization used by rapists and appearantly by rapist sympathizers, or at the very least people with a general lack of respect for women.

Furthermore, it's a rationalization used by rapists AFTER THE FACT. They know what rape is rape, they don't think to themselves, "Hmm...she's dressed rather provocatively tonight, I bet she wants me to beat her unconcious and rape her. Or even if she doesn't want it, it's still kidna her fault..." I mean, that style of though is absolutely lunacy, and I can't believe anyone would defend it.

As for your car analogy, it's doesn't really fit. But I'll try to work with it.

  1. No, you are not rationalizing car theft when you say I should lock my car door. I submit that girls are always locked, unless they are willingly having sex with you, at least in this example. You would be rationalizing car theft if I left my car locked somewhere, and when it was stolen you said it's the theifs fault, but that I am more to blame...and in fact, it's "entirely" my fault, because I have a nice car, that was locked, but also had nice rims, a good paint job, and a high shine on it that day.
  2. Please go back and read, for comprehension this time, the numerous references to how being stupid is not an invitation to get raped. Leaving your car unlocked in a high theft area would be stupid. But stealing the car is the crime, whether it is locked or unlocked.
  3. No, it would not make the thiefs any less guilty. Society operates under the assumptions that you aren't about to get mugged, beated, raped, murdered or have your car stolen. Most of the time it works fine, but occasionally people break the law. When they do, IT IS THEIR FAULT.
PS: Subquestion - What subconcious processes are taking place when you equate raping a woman to stealing a car? Perhaps the analogy works if you consider both of them to be objects?

[ Parent ]
Excuse me for not reading the entire thread... (none / 1) (#528)
by artis on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 01:54:52 PM EST

...each and every time a want to make a response to a specific pair of posts, I do not keep tabs on who said what. My title was wrong, the point however is not: you still are the first line of defense for yourself, a court won't revive you if something goes terribly wrong. The "entirely her fault" line is not mine and is several levels above, the post I did respond to wasn't a direct response to it and I don't agree with it.
But stealing the car is the crime, whether it is locked or unlocked
You won't see me dispute that, no matter how many times you say it's a crime either way you can't make it look like I said the opposite. The problem is that saying "it's crime" won't help you much once you have already walked into a trap or attracted enough attention of some criminals. To make it short: what happened to her was not her fault, that does not mean she did not do anything wrong. If she did (is that known yet) people should learn from that not ignore it.
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
What if the tiny mistake was getting drunk (none / 1) (#438)
by HollyHopDrive on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 07:35:24 AM EST

and subsequently losing the ability to think rationally and realise going off with strange men is a stupid thing to do? Or driving and killing someone? "Tiny mistakes" kill people all the time.

Opportunity is irrelevant. Natalee is guilty of stupidity and nothing more, and this is absolutely no mitigation on those who, in all probability, raped and killed her.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

No excuse -- The Rules of Being Drunk (3.00 / 5) (#462)
by cburke on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 01:34:22 AM EST

As someone who has been very drunk very often, I feel somewhat qualified to speak on this issue.

"What if the tiny mistake was getting drunk and subsequently losing the ability to think rationally and realise going off with strange men is a stupid thing to do? Or driving and killing someone?"

No, no, no.  Being drunk does not mean you cannot think at all.  It means you are severely impaired.  This means you must stick with very simple rules that you have decided upon -before- being drunk.  These include, but are not limited to:

#1: No driving.  This is easy.  Can I stand up straight?  No?  Then I can't drive.  I have been so drunk I thought I was going to die.  I've never been so drunk I didn't remember that I shouldn't drive.  Since we've all only had this rule driven into our brains constantly for the last, oh, twenty years I have absolutely zero tolerance for anyone who cannot remember this simple rule.  There is no excuse whatsoever.  

#2:  No picking fights.  Alcohol may make you feel like you're a combination of Stephen Hawking and Jet Li, but you're not.  Don't argue, and don't fight.  If you're one of those people who wants to fight but only has the courage when drunk, well, go ahead, but it's entirely your fault when you end up in the medical ward of the county jail.

#3:  No getting in the car with strangers, especially if you're a woman.  Especially if you're a woman in strange country with strange people.  Everybody with two brain cells knows getting drunk and going off with strangers is how you get raped.  If the only thing stopping you from doing this was your intoxication level then you are in fact a moron.

Not that I don't feel lots of sympathy for the girl.  But she was stupid, and that stupidity probably cost her life.  If the issue was that she got drunk and forgot that she shouldn't parade around south-central L.A. in a Klan robe shouting racial slurs, would that be just a "tiny mistake" or a collossal screw up that no amount of alcohol could explain?  I say the latter.

As far as "mitigation", that's not the issue.  Guilt is not a zero-sum game.  The criminals are clearly 100% responsible, but that does not make Natalee less stupid, or less culpable.  I couldn't say she's 100% in any way, but I do think forgetting basic rules of safety is inexcuseable.  In a way the media attention should hopefully help us realize that, and be more safe ourselves.  Because I don't necessarily think I'm immune to stupidity like that, and I hope it doesn't get me killed.

[ Parent ]

My vote for best comment in thread /nt (none / 0) (#464)
by destroy all monsters on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 06:43:57 AM EST



"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]
Eh? (none / 0) (#470)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:58:55 AM EST

My point is more about the guy's insistence that getting drunk is a "little" thing, whereas getting into the car is a "big" thing. So all I'm asking him is: if getting drunk is a little thing, what's getting drunk and losing your capacity to realise "shit, getting into a car with strange men is stupid"?

Natalee was very stupid, nobody can doubt that. But she is entirely guiltless. Assuming the guys just then pulled the car over and forced her. Perhaps more happened that we don't know about, but they would have to be exceptional circumstances for her self-imposed vulnerability to justify exploitation.

I mean, technically I put myself at risk of rape and kidnap every time I leave my house. Does that mean I'm in any way culpable if someone springs out with a knife and a car with the engine running?


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

I don't know.... (none / 0) (#481)
by DavidTC on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 02:04:02 PM EST

...what kind of wacky person would assign someone 'guilt' over their own death. You aren't 'guilty' of actions that just harm you.

But however poorly the person making the point is talking, the point is: This girl acted very stupidly. We're talking Darwin Award here.

-David T. C.
Yes, my email address is real.
[ Parent ]

Her stupidity isn't in question (none / 0) (#484)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 06:52:04 PM EST

But I can't believe that anyone could seriously suggest a girl is even partly to blame when some guys who are giving her a lift in a car pull over, rape her and kill her.

It's sheer misogyny. It makes me sick. If a man meets some other men in a pub, has a few beers and a few laughs, and then accepts their offer of a lift home, and they then pull into a side street, cosh him and steal his wallet, would these people say he was to blame at all for getting in the car?

There are quite a few of these "wacky" people in this thread. Also, my question remains. If getting drunk is just a small mistake, but getting into the car is a big mistake, how do we define getting drunk and subsequently being stupid enough, under the influence, to get into a car?


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Um. (none / 0) (#490)
by DavidTC on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 01:28:46 PM EST

If a man meets some other men in a pub, has a few beers and a few laughs, and then accepts their offer of a lift home, and they then pull into a side street, cosh him and steal his wallet, would these people say he was to blame at all for getting in the car?

Um...yeah? I certainly would. Especially in some random foreign country.

Although obviously people should protect themselves more against 'being raped and murdered' vs. 'having their wallet stolen'. She was at risk of having something very bad happen to her, he was just at risk of being rolled for his cash. (Well, they were both at risk for anything, those were just the most obvious bad things.)

If getting drunk is just a small mistake, but getting into the car is a big mistake, how do we define getting drunk and subsequently being stupid enough, under the influence, to get into a car?

Well, first of all, I didn't say that. And being drunk doesn't make you stupid, at least not very much, it removes inhibitions. Inhibitions shouldn't the thing keeping you from getting in cars with strange people in strange places, intelligence should be.

It's not like it requires a lot of intelligence...no more than saying 'I won't drive this drunk', and we expect people to be able to say that.

Now, of course, if she was 'falling down drunk', enough where she could basically be manhandled into the car without complaint, the equation is different: Her fault was merely getting that drunk.

You should never get that drunk without trusted people around to make sure that others don't take advantage of you, especially if you're a women. (It's probably not a good idea to get that drunk at all, considering that's around the area for alcohol poisoning.)

-David T. C.
Yes, my email address is real.
[ Parent ]

Then we disagree (none / 0) (#503)
by HollyHopDrive on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 09:23:08 AM EST

I could never say that a criminal's acts are mitigated because the victim made them easy. I could say someone was stupid, as Miss Holloway undoubtedly was. But if the worst has happened, as it probably has, then she is guilty only of stupidity - and this is not a mitigating factor for those who used force to prevent her escaping rape and murder.

The comments on big and little mistakes were in reference to a post someone else made, not you. But on that slant...If someone drinks so much they fall over and choke on their own vomit, nobody's fault but theirs. But acts performed against them without their consent are not their responsibility. Being drunk is not an invitation for rape or murder, and nor is it a justification even in the slightest.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

I didn't say anything like that. (none / 0) (#506)
by DavidTC on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 10:45:06 AM EST

I haven't said it was a 'migrating factor' at all. Someone who rapes and murders a drunk woman is just as guilty as someone who grabs a sober one strolling down the street in broad daylight and rapes and murders her.

I don't know why people seem to think there's a certain amount of 'fault' when bad things happens, and that if one person is at fault other people need to be less at fault. That may be how we think it works in English, but it's completely idiotic.

She made a rather large mistake that cost her life. That does not in any way excuse the people who actually took her life.

OTOH, I feel less sorry for her than, say, this hypothetical example who got snatched off the street in broad daylight. Because she could have done stuff to seriously reduce her obvious risk, but apparently didn't even try, for whatever reason.

And it's insulting she gets this much media coverage when responsible people, trying to support their family, randomly get killed by a stray bullet coming in their window, and that's just another day in the inner city. But those people are poor, ugly (or at least not wearing makeup), and black.

-David T. C.
Yes, my email address is real.
[ Parent ]

What about poor, ugly, white random victims? [nt] (none / 1) (#512)
by artis on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 03:08:20 PM EST


--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
Are you reading? (none / 0) (#556)
by HollyHopDrive on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 12:32:00 PM EST

I want to know why you said "migrating factor" when I'm sure I didn't make that typo.

I want to know also because you said this (your words in bold):

If a man meets some other men in a pub, has a few beers and a few laughs, and then accepts their offer of a lift home, and they then pull into a side street, cosh him and steal his wallet, would these people say he was to blame at all for getting in the car?

Um...yeah? I certainly would.

So you ARE saying victims are to blame for making themselves vulnerable. So you ARE saying a crime is mitigated - not entirely the criminal's fault - if it's easy.

That's vile. Luckily no decent court system would agree with you.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Are you just stupid? (none / 1) (#569)
by DavidTC on Tue Jul 26, 2005 at 05:26:00 PM EST

So, in our universe, you don't disapprove of doing stupid things?

Or maybe you live in that idiotic universe where shared responsiblity is lessened. I seem to keep running into you immoral fuckwits more and more.

The actual truth: If you knowingly enably an action, you are fully responsible. If you unknowingly enable an action through stupidity, you are partially responsible for it.

And so is everyone else. Responsiblity isn't some sort of zero sum game.

If six people get together and decide to kill someone, they are all murderers, 100%. If another person sees them and doesn't do anything, that person is partially responsible, except in your fictional universe where assigning them any blame would take it off the actual killers. So I guess they get away scott free, morally, with you.

You are indeed an immoral fuckwit. That's the only thing you can be if you can only blame one person for every bad thing...everyone who didn't have their finger on the trigger is morally fine.

To apply that to this situtation: The people who kidnapped her are fully responsible for it. Each and every single one of them, and I hope they all end up put away for a long time.

She, because of her lack of rudimentary safety procedures, is, in addition, partially responsible for it. Of course, I don't assign her any 'blame' per se, because blaming people for actions that harm themselves is insane. If people want to harm themselves, they are free to do so.

And because she is partially responsible for what happened to her, I have less empathy for her than others who act responsibly and still get killed. It is more important to protect those people.

As for you, however, I will not worry, because me and sixteen other people have taken a vote and hired a contract killer to kill you. Morally, I figure that is equivalent to punching you in the face. And I'm not pulling the trigger, so maybe I can't be blamed at all!

-David T. C.
Yes, my email address is real.
[ Parent ]

No, you're stupid (none / 0) (#575)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 05:21:54 AM EST

because you can't tell the difference between making oneself vulnerable and someone else exploiting that vulnerability.

Blaming the victim, as you do with your "If you unknowingly enable an action through stupidity, you are partially responsible for it" is repulsive.

I will spell it out for you. Read slowly.

A CRIME IS NOT MITIGATED BECAUSE IT IS EASY.

A PERSON WHO SUFFERS AT THE HANDS OF A THIRD PARTY ACTING ON HIS OWN FREE WILL IS NOT TO BLAME IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

AGREEING THAT SOMEONE WAS STUPID TO MAKE THEMSELVES VULNERABLE IS NO DEFENCE OF THE CRIMES COMMITTED AGAINST THAT PERSON.

RESPONSIBILITY FOR A CRIME DOES NOT LESSEN WITH THE INCREASED VULNERABILITY OF THE VICTIM.

You're stupid and you have little grasp of basic morality. The first one, I could stand.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

It's you (none / 1) (#580)
by DavidTC on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 10:58:52 AM EST

who keep using the word mitigated. Not me. I have yet to use that word at all.

I just said, in fairly easy to understand English, that every single one of her killers is fully responsible for their actions.

Blaming the victim, as you do with your "If you unknowingly enable an action through stupidity, you are partially responsible for it" is repulsive..

Well, first off, I rather explicitly said 'blaming' a victim makes no sense. Blame is assigned when you harm other people, not yourself. Doing bad things to yourself doesn't lead to blame, and doing good things for yourself doesn't lead to any sort of credit. (Look at that man, he just bought himself a six course meal! What a humanitarian!)

The reason is that blame is used to condemn other people, to make them feel poorly about having harmed people, and to make them not do it again. However, if they harmed themselves, they presumably already don't want to do it again. And, of course, in this instance, are dead anyway.

Blame isn't the same thing as responsibility, or guilt for that matter. responsibility is a factual 'Did your actions cause it? If so, how much?'.

But, anyway, people who unknowingly enable an action through stupidity, are partially responsible for it.

Let's say you have a nice car, and you give it to a valet. A few minutes later, someone comes up, claiming to be you, and has lost their ticket, and the person hands your car over the thief.

Are they partially responsible for your car being stolen? Hell yes.

Is the thief fully responsible? Hell yes.

It doesn't add up like you seem to be assuming.

See, the problem here you want to give her a free pass on blame. That is fine. I don't go around blaming dead people for actions that resulted in their death, even if they committed suicide. There's no point. (Blame could stop other young women from behaving as irreponsibly, but I think they've got that lesson from the 'murdered and killed' portion of the story.).

But you apperently have reading comprehension problem and refuse to understand responsibility isn't blame. (Or guilt, for that matter.)

And you refuse to understand that responsibility isn't a set amount that is divided among people...that's flatly idiotic thinking. That's how 'partially' and 'fully' work in English, but English isn't magically correct.

So what's the answer to my hypothetical? Is the valet partially responsible or not? If so, is the car thief any less responsible? Think about those questions for a while.

I think I've already over-explained this, and if you don't understand it by now you're not going to get it.

-David T. C.
Yes, my email address is real.
[ Parent ]

Responsibility (none / 0) (#590)
by HollyHopDrive on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 06:17:45 AM EST

Responsible:

Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust.

Well, her actions didn't lead to her death. They led to her getting into a car. She didn't die of being in a car. She died of being murdered. Someone else's actions resulted in her death - if the attackers had had the most basic morals they would have taken her home safe.

Being a source or cause.

I suppose, to play devil's advocate, you could say she was a cause of murder, or a source of it, because all crimes need victims. But somehow I don't think this cuts it. Nothing she did sealed her fate. She was certainly stupid, but she didn't rape or strangle herself. If any responsibility is taken by her, it's taken off her attackers - and you claim this is abhorrent. Apparently.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

I'd like to see proof of this: (none / 1) (#596)
by DavidTC on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 02:42:00 PM EST

If any responsibility is taken by her, it's taken off her attackers...

I'd like to see some sane theory where this actually makes any sense.

Let's say I'm going to kill James. Me and Fred both don't like James, so I get together with Fred, and we cleverly work out a plan to alibi each other, and I kill James and walk away scott free.

If Fred responsible for James' murder? Yes or no? It's a very simple question, one I've repeated a dozen different ways, and you have flatly refused to answer.

OF COURSE HE IS. He is fully responsible, and I am fully responsible. Responsiblity doesn't magically reduce itself because it's spread over many people, that's the most immoral philosophy I've ever heard.

In this chaotic universe of ours, events have many causes.

Everyone who knowingly works towards an evil act is as responsible for that evil act as if they were the only person involved.

Everyone who looks away and allows evil to happen is as responsible for that evil act as if they were the only person involved.

Everyone who accidently allows evil to happen is as responsible for that evil act as if they were the only person involved.

The only reason the latter two have less responsiblity is that we consider 'allowing evil to happen' to be less bad than 'causing evil' and we consist 'accidently doing evil' to be less than both.

Here's a fun thought experiment for you.

If, instead of men causing the problem, what if it had been nature? It's hard to think of a comparable situtation, but let's say there were wild wolves roaming after dark, and she stupidly went out there and got mauled. Would she be more or less responsible for what happened to her?

Or let's say she was kidnapped from her locked hotel room while sleeping. Would the men be more or less responsible?

What if the men were being watched by the police, because they were suspected of other crimes, but the police officer assigned to them decided to get drunk instead of watching them. Are the men more or less responsible? What about Natalee?

As is fairly obvious when you think about it, responsiblity is not some a set amount that gets divided among people. Every single action any person does has some amount of 'responsiblity' for events that follow it, based on how much someone knows and/or wants those events to happen. This amount is completely unrelated to any other person.

-David T. C.
Yes, my email address is real.
[ Parent ]

"Many causes" do not mitigate. (none / 0) (#599)
by HollyHopDrive on Fri Jul 29, 2005 at 08:00:43 AM EST

as you do seem to agree. You could argue Natalee is partly responsible just for going to Aruba. Maybe she would be fine if she'd gone to London. Or maybe if she'd gone to London, she would have been hit by a drunk driver and everyone would complain she should have gone to Aruba. But nothing was sealed when she got into the car. Her attackers could have simply taken her home safe. Her fate wasn't sealed by getting in the car - it wasn't a natural consequence of it. It was the consequence of someone else preventing her from leaving and using force on her. And she is not responsible, even in a tiny amount, for someone else abandoning the most basic premises of human morality.

My point is that all the factors leading up to her being in a vulnerable position are incidental. All it would have required would have been for her murderers to adhere to the most basic of moral codes - don't rape and don't kill - and she'd be alive. Sure, she is stupid for getting into the car, but her stupidity is not what killed her - other people's wickedness is what killed her. She doesn't take any responsibility for being stupid. If you're going to claim she does, then you're taking some of the responsibility off the shoulders of the attackers, and that simply doesn't fly.

Your thought experiment also does not fly, unless you're suggesting animals are to be held to the same level of moral responsibility as humans. It's a completely different situation when someone is killed by nature as to when they are deliberately murdered by a thinking, sentient human being.

I used the "what if she was plucked off the street" argument in another thread. It makes no difference. All she did here was put herself into danger, but she didn't rape or kill herself, and died entirely at another's hands. She is stupid. But she is not responsible.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

You keep saying this. (none / 1) (#605)
by DavidTC on Sun Jul 31, 2005 at 10:14:14 AM EST

She doesn't take any responsibility for being stupid. If you're going to claim she does, then you're taking some of the responsibility off the shoulders of the attackers, and that simply doesn't fly.

You keep saying that, and it simply does not make sense. You have come up with absolutely no logical reason that giving someone more responsiblity for an action gives someone else less.

Responsiblity isn't a thing, it's a measurement of how much that person's actions lead to the result. It's not like 'how much money does people have', it's more like 'how much does each person weigh'. One person being heavier does not make another lighter.

In English it's a noun, and as such gets dumped in with persons, places, and things, where it does make sense to talk like that, but responsibility is an idea. It does not follow the rules of conservation of matter.

I'm not going to say anything more until you post something that at least shows you understand what I'm saying, as you keep ignoring it and simply repeating 'That's not true'. You are free to disagree philosophically, but you actually have to have some reason to do so.

And it's hard to see how you can logically argue it without also arguing that I am only half as responsible for James' murder. (Which is why I called everyone who thinks this way 'immoral fuckwits'. That thinking leads to the logical conclusion it's morally okay to strap bombs to dogs and let them blow up buildings. After all, the dog did it, not you.)

And, BTW, I didn't ask anything about the wolves morality. Wolves are not responsible for their actions. I asked about her responsiblity. She did almost the same thing, took (hypothetically) the same risks, and had the same fate. Yet you argue her responsiblity for her actions was different, because the thing that killed her (That she had no control over) was different. That's just crazy talk.

-David T. C.
Yes, my email address is real.
[ Parent ]

Here it is. (none / 0) (#606)
by HollyHopDrive on Sun Jul 31, 2005 at 06:40:33 PM EST

Yes, I keep saying it, because I keep disagreeing with you, and I do keep saying why.

Everything leading up to the point of the murder is irrelevant. Natalee has no way of knowing going to Aruba will lead to her death. She makes her death more likely by getting in the car, yes. She also makes it more likely by being in Aruba rather than tucked up in bed in her parents' house. By being female. By being alone. Is she stupid? Hell, yes. But disapproving of actions because they are stupid does not lessen the one ultimate decision that led to her death - and that decision was not hers.

At the point when she was in the car, events were held and controlled one hundred per cent by her attackers. It was their decision and their decision alone. A number of factors led to Natalee's being in the car - her decision to go to Aruba rather than London, her decision to get in the car - but all that is irrelevant because the only decision that determines whether she lives or dies lies with her attackers.

A simple decision. Take her home safe and act on the most basic of human morality - all is well. Attack and kill her - she dies. The decision was one hundred per cent theirs, and therefore one hundred per cent their responsibility, their blame or whatever you want to call it.

It comes down to the basic fact - which you claim to agree with - that crimes are not mitigated/made less accountable for/WHATEVER YOU WANT TO PUT HERE just because they were easy.

You can whinge about not being able to convince me, as if that means I haven't understood your points. You can mess about trying to make a difference between blame and responsibility, not that that's of the slightest relevance when we're both discussing whose actions brought about Natalee's death. Whatever factors led up to Natalee being in that position are irrelevant. The decision was simple - take her home safe, or attack and kill her. They chose the latter. They are completely, entirely, solely and one hundred per cent responsible for that decision, which is the only decision that sealed Natalee's fate, being the only one that killed her.

Back on the wolves - yes, well done. Take an entirely different scenario that does not involve deliberate rape and murder, and quibble about that all you like. It's a completely different situation that has not one iota of relevance here. It's like saying if a man is tied up and shot, whose fault is it? Oh, but let's say he slipped and fell off a cliff, whose fault is it then? Ah ha, then how can it be the gunman's fault in the first example? Come on. If you must use an analogy, use one that works and actually reflects the facts of the case you're making. Same goes for your weird weight analogy as well.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Oh dear, you're still going on about it. (none / 0) (#607)
by it certainly is on Sun Jul 31, 2005 at 09:48:07 PM EST

I'm sure you're doing it because you're unable to break from the feminazi party line, namely that girls should be able to get drunk, dress up like whores and rub their bodies against convicted rapists in back alleyways late at night, and expect complete moral absolution from any illegal acts that follow from such provocation.

There's one comparison neither of you have mentioned; insurance. Whether your doors are locked or not, if a burglar breaks in and steals your stuff, he's 100% guilty of the crime. Yet, the insurance company won't pay out if they find you were negligent in securing your possessions from the burglar, from ANY burglar.

In order to get through life, you have to take precautions against things which might kill you. You have to secure yourself against the criminals in our society. I'm not excusing their lack of morality, I'm stating they lack morals and will continue to do their evil work until they are apprehended and punished. In the meantime, you must be wary of them. The punishment you recieve for failing to protect yourself could well be your death. Don't get drunk and get in strange mens' cars, they're probably career rapists who have no qualms about raping young girls and killing them, because they're utter psychos. Don't make them think Christmas and their birthday have arrived at once by getting in their car, you drunk idiot.

Perhaps some good can come of this, some Leah Betts style campaigning. HEY DRUNK GIRLS! DON'T GET IN STRANGE MEN'S CARS! THEY'LL PROBABLY RAPE YOU AND KILL YOU.

When you're dead and violated, it's really not of much consequence to you that someone else had no morals.

kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
[ Parent ]

Insurance companies - great moral compass! (none / 0) (#611)
by HollyHopDrive on Mon Aug 01, 2005 at 11:14:28 AM EST

I should stop right here, but I'll bite. <shrug> There's no guy got endurance like the guy who sells insurance. Insurance companies don't want to have to pay out if they don't have to, which is why they slap all those restrictions on their policies. (Hell, when I was in Africa I was covered if my stuff was inside a locked box, even if the box wasn't nailed to the floor. In other words, if it was in an unlocked box and the box was stolen, I'm not covered - box stolen and lock picked later, I get the cash.) They have a right to do that. But I would have hoped the criminal justice system was more interested in what's just, fair and right than what's the best business deal. Women, and men for that matter, can't lock their orifices quite so easily. But all this aside, the fact remains that even though an insurance company won't pay out if you don't lock your box, it still doesn't make it in any way your fault if someone decides to break into your house and steal the box. It's just a shitty injustice of the world that you get penalised for it, and the courts are supposed to exist to set straight shitty injustices where possible.

It is very difficult to have a rational discussion with anyone who uses the "feminazi" term. It's a crappy term, managing to be vile, flippant and disrespectful while still not adding a single coherent point. It's a real shame that feminism, which after all is only supposed to mean equal rights, has been demonised, but to add this demonisation to the call to punish rapists 100% for their crimes - foul beyond words.

A woman does not become your property and lose her right to say no even if she is wearing a short skirt, even if she is rubbing up against you. Guess what - she could be stark naked and give you a blowjob, and SHE COULD STILL SAY NO TO SEX. But yet again, all you did with that vile insinuation was change the situation yet again, as our friend David keeps doing. (Hey, you say a murderer is responsible, he says, but what about this completely different situation with wolves where there's no murderer at all? So how can a murderer be guilty in one scenario when he's not guilty in another one where he doesn't exist?!?!?)

Nobody said Natalee would have been in the car, stripping and blowing kisses. She was just in the car. But guess what - even if she had been stripping and blowing kisses, she could still have said no if she'd wanted to. And it should have been respected.

Should we discourage women from getting into strange men's cars? Of course. Always better to avoid risk. But should we hold them in any way responsible if the men in the car then rape them? No. Blaming the victim - even a pretty, short-skirted victim, shock horror - is UNACCEPTABLE. The logical extension is: "Let this rapist off, my lord. Don't punish him for making the sole decision that made the life and death decision to this woman. His crime was easy to commit, after all. Plus she was wearing a short skirt, for crying out loud."

It's actually a respect for men that leads me to this conclusion. I'm not convinced that you lot are all drooling, lust-filled animals who are so base, so single-minded and so damn stupid that you can't just keep your hands to yourself if the girl says she doesn't want it.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Male hormones are powerful..... (1.50 / 2) (#612)
by Have A Nice Day on Mon Aug 01, 2005 at 11:34:23 AM EST

I agree absolutely with all you say above, the retards arguing with you are just that - retarded.

This interested me though:
"and so damn stupid that you can't just keep your hands to yourself if the girl says she doesn't want it"

Male hormones get in the way of thought. They turn the brain onto sex and keep it there whilst repressing the rational and thinking sides. I think perhaps your confidence in men is misplaced and some could be animalistic in sexual respects.

--------------
Have A Nice Day may have reentered the building.
[ Parent ]
I suppose so (none / 0) (#613)
by HollyHopDrive on Mon Aug 01, 2005 at 12:14:28 PM EST

Still, the motivation for rape generally isn't because the woman was so beautiful or the man was so mesmerised with lust. Most rapists know their victims and it's about power and domination than heady sexual attraction.

But point taken, thanks.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

I thought I better. (none / 0) (#619)
by DavidTC on Sat Aug 06, 2005 at 07:28:41 PM EST

...pop up and say I take issue with this.

Girls sleeping with random men is not 'immoral', and I don't agree with the idea she deserved what happened to her because of that at all. I assign her no responsiblity because her intended outcome was getting laid.

My sole argument was that she's getting all this sympathy, when she did a damn stupid thing. Meanwhile, there are completely responsible women who lock their doors at night, drive the speed limit, and have a drunk driver flip over the divider on top of them or have a man overpower them in the ten feet between their car and their front door.

Let's fix that first. Let's worry about those people first. Let's spend tax dollars and media time on those problems. Even if they're not attractive white 20-year olds.

If you're the kind of person who goes to other countries, gets drunk, and climbs in cars with random people for whatever reason, you've probably got a limited lifespan anyway.

-David T. C.
Yes, my email address is real.
[ Parent ]

What bullshit! (none / 0) (#591)
by Have A Nice Day on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 08:04:36 AM EST

"Blame is assigned when you harm other people, not yourself."

What a steaming pile of bullcrap. You can easily blame yourself for harm done to you. There's that whole phrase "I've only got myself to blame".


--------------
Have A Nice Day may have reentered the building.
[ Parent ]
Blame is assigned... (none / 1) (#595)
by DavidTC on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 02:21:59 PM EST

by others when you harm others.

You can 'blame' yourself all you want.

But, incidentally, blaming 'yourself' is usually just an expression to say you can't blame anyone else. It doesn't mean you're going to go home and give yourself dirty looks in the mirror whenever you pass one by.

If it does get to the point of you punishing yourself with disapproval, we confusingly call it 'guilt'. Which in every other usage means a legal placement of blame followed by punishment.

Why, I don't know, but I don't want to get into a semantics debate. Maybe we metaphorically 'confess' to ourselves.

The point I was making is that someone can be responsible for something and not be 'blamed' for it. In fact, you're responsible for the good things you do, too.

Natalee Holloway acted irreponsiblity, aka, without thought of the results of her actions. Bad things proceeded to happen, and she is partially responsible for her fate.

Which does not reduce the responsiblity or the guilt of her abductors.

Or the responsiblity of any 'friends' who let her get drunk and wander off, for that matter. I admit I have no idea what happened there, but it's possible her friends screwed up almost as bad as her.

-David T. C.
Yes, my email address is real.
[ Parent ]

Cocklord (nt) (none / 0) (#598)
by Have A Nice Day on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 07:54:43 PM EST



--------------
Have A Nice Day may have reentered the building.
[ Parent ]
Additional (none / 0) (#576)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 05:49:17 AM EST

In your courts of law, a murderer could be given a lighter sentence if his counsel pointed out, "Your honour, the woman was on her own at night. I mean, come on, obviously he shouldn't go to prison now. She was, like, on her own! And it was night! So killing her wasn't such a bad thing!"

God Almighty.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

God, you're an idiot. (none / 1) (#585)
by cburke on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 02:52:08 PM EST

How many times does it have to be said?

Guilt is not a zero sum game!  Being partially responsible because you're an idiot DOES NOT make the criminal any less responsible AT ALL.  The stupidity of the victim COULD NOT be used to get the criminal a lighter sentence.  That is ENTIRELY your own invention based on your incorrect and stupid reading of something that has been stated in plain English.

This has been said repeatedly, and you keep ignoring it.  You look like a buffoon.  GUILT IS NOT A ZERO SUM GAME.  SOMEONE ELSE'S GUILT DOES NOT REDUCE YOURS.  Have a nice day.

[ Parent ]

You can repeat it all you like (none / 0) (#589)
by HollyHopDrive on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 06:10:20 AM EST

but that doesn't make it true. I may be an idiot, but you have a poor grasp of basic morality (and reading, it would seem), and I know which is worse.

Guilt is indeed a zero sum game when the cause of death is another person squeezing the life out of you and not through self-defence or any other such situation. Nobody has denied Natalee is stupid. I do deny, though, that her stupidity makes her in any way responsible for her death.

You agree her stupidity doesn't lessen the responsibility of the criminal. As such, that means she isn't responsible.

The easiest way to put it is: she did not die of being in a car. She died of being murdered. Her attackers are 100% guilty of her death because they were the sole cause of it.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Drunk, little; getting in car, big. (none / 0) (#487)
by cburke on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:46:11 PM EST

My point is more about the guy's insistence that getting drunk is a "little" thing, whereas getting into the car is a "big" thing. So all I'm asking him is: if getting drunk is a little thing, what's getting drunk and losing your capacity to realise "shit, getting into a car with strange men is stupid"?

Yes, and my whole point is that getting drunk does not cause you to "lose your capacity" to refrain from driving off with strangers any more than getting drunk makes you unable to remember that driving while drunk is bad.

In other words:  Getting drunk is a little mistake.  Getting drunk without knowing the rules of getting drunk is a big mistake.  Drinking and driving is a big mistake.  Drinking and getting into cars with strangers is a big mistake.  Drinking itself, still a little mistake.

Being drunk no more excuses getting into strangers cars than being drunk excuses drunk driving.  

I mean, technically I put myself at risk of rape and kidnap every time I leave my house. Does that mean I'm in any way culpable if someone springs out with a knife and a car with the engine running?

So, it's the "one circumstance equals all circumstance" argument?  You stepping out onto your own street and being jumped by surprise is completely different than an innebriated foreign woman all alone in Aruba taking rides from strange men.  If that's not obvious to you now, then I suggest you never get drunk in Aruba.

[ Parent ]

No. (none / 0) (#617)
by HollyHopDrive on Tue Aug 02, 2005 at 11:03:07 AM EST

Yes, and my whole point is that getting drunk does not cause you to "lose your capacity" to refrain from driving off with strangers any more than getting drunk makes you unable to remember that driving while drunk is bad.

But whether you had your capacity or not is irrelevant. It has no bearing on someone else's decision to take advantage of your vulnerable state. However you try to couch it, you are saying crimes are mitigated if the victim made them easy. You can't say the criminal is 100% responsible if you're also saying the victim has to take some blame for being in a vulnerable position. Where do you draw the line? Being drunk? Being drunk and alone? Being drunk and alone in Aruba?

So, it's the "one circumstance equals all circumstance" argument?

No, it's the "logical conclusion" argument. If you're going to say a victim bears any responsibility at all for being in a vulnerable state, then logically it follows that any time I leave my house without being handcuffed to a bodyguard, I must bear some of the blame.

Do you see this happening? "My lord, spare this criminal the harshest sentence. The girl was on her own and it was late at night. She made herself vulnerable. That means the raping murderer can be held less than 100% responsible for his inhumanity."

How can you say being drunk is a small mistake but being drunk when not knowing the risks is a big mistake? What the hell does that matter if you're drunk and for any reason it leads to you doing something dumb? And even if you did something dumb, how does that make you responsible for someone else deciding, "I won't take her home safe. I will murder her"?

Do me a lemon.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

The difference is (none / 1) (#437)
by HollyHopDrive on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 06:44:25 AM EST

playing with fire or guns, you set fire to or shoot yourself.

You walk off with strangers, they do things to you. Third party.

It's a very very very stupid thing to do. But if Natalee's killers (assuming she has some, which she probably has) get brought to court, the jury isn't going to acquit them because their counsel says, "Well, she did go off with them, so you have to blame her for it."


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Nor should they acquit (none / 0) (#465)
by destroy all monsters on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 06:54:14 AM EST

that doesn't mean that people don't regularly use others to be the instruments of their own destruction.

Many people, particularly (cowardly) self-loathing types either deliberately or sub-conciously put them selves in positions that they know (in some form or fashion) will either kill them, harm them or "eliminate the self" (something that quite a lot of drug abusers are attempting).

None of these things obviate their own role or culpability in their undoing.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

You could be right (none / 0) (#469)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:53:17 AM EST

but I think it's a bit crazy to suggest Natalee wanted to orchestrate her own self-destruction by going to Aruba and going off with strange men in the subconscious hope that they would kill her. More likely she was just young, naive and stupid. Hasn't everyone been?

But even if it's true, we all still have a duty of care towards others, perhaps particularly towards those who are self-destructive. Suicide is illegal over here for just that reason. Some people need to be protected from themselves. If she was raped and killed (and she probably was), she was stupid to get herself into that position but she is one hundred per cent innocent of the crimes committed against her by other people.

Do you see this happening? "You see, my lord, Natalee was obsessed with the extinction of the self, the ecstasy of absolute surrender and thorough yielding of personality and character, even unto life itself. Therefore, you cannot blame the men who chose to abuse her vulnerable position by raping and killing her. She wanted it to happen. Since she was trying to use them in her own extinction, they were automatically relieved of their natural human moral duty to protect the vulnerable and not to exploit the weak. Right?"

No, me neither.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

I agree that she probably (none / 0) (#471)
by destroy all monsters on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:34:04 AM EST

wasn't trying to orchestrate her own destruction at least per se. She might have been trying to "destroy the self" in drinking but that's merely speculative.I mostly put that out there because I felt that you opened the door with your comment and that these things do happen and commonly.

"But even if it's true, we all still have a duty of care towards others, perhaps particularly towards those who are self-destructive."

To a degree I agree that this is true. The problem then becomes when do we decide for *someone else* when they've become (overly) self-destructive? Not everyone that takes drugs or drinks is an abuser, not everyone that eats a lot of ice cream is abusing themselves. It really puts others in a position that realistically only the person involved can determine for themselves. If someone has ultimately decided that their life is worthless there is nothing we can do for them.

"Suicide is illegal over here for just that reason."

Something I disagree with.

"Some people need to be protected from themselves."

Some are institutionalized. Many of those people have it even worse in there I'm sad to say. Some *are* saved by it, at least in the sense that they're still alive.

The point isn't that she's guilty of someone else's crimes, just of having put herself in such a position as to have it become all too likely.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

Then let's put it this way (none / 0) (#472)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:51:57 AM EST

If she wants to destroy herself by drinking, this does not give us the right to ignore her when she vomits and collapses unconscious. But in that case, it was her own drinking that got her into that position anyway, so she's entirely to blame.

If she decides her life is worthless, we have a duty to try to convince her otherwise. Unless she's suffering a painful, terminal illness, which is, to my mind, a completely different debate.

Assuming Natalee has been raped and killed, which she probably has been, here it is. She got drunk. I can't judge her for that, I do that a lot, although I'd never go off with strange men no matter how trollied I was. She went off with strange men. Fucking moron. Very stupid. Everyone knows going off with strange men is dangerous. But here's the rub. Even if she did do it for self-extinction, even if she wanted only to yield to the thrill of surrender to the abyss, it's nobody else's right to take over that action for her.

Other people raped her. Other people killed her. She was stupid to make that possible, but to be honest, merely existing puts her at a negligible risk of rape and murder. Her stupidity does not make the crimes against her any less vile, and anything less than one hundred per cent the fault of those who did them to her.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

What someone else does does not require (none / 0) (#494)
by destroy all monsters on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 11:11:15 PM EST

an individual to bail them out.

"If she wants to destroy herself by drinking, this does not give us the right to ignore her when she vomits and collapses unconscious."

Wrong. There is no statute that requires one to be a good samaritan. I have just that right. That I would or wouldn't is entirely a choice on my part.

"If she decides her life is worthless, we have a duty to try to convince her otherwise."

Her friends do, and emergency personnel do but not the rest of society.

"although I'd never go off with strange men no matter how trollied I was."

Which shows that you're not an idiot and expecting society or whomever else to have your back (despite your apparent comments that seem to state that someone owes these idiots something). Those that don't do that aren't deserving of sympathy.

No one's stating that whomever perpetrated whatever happened to her aren't culpable. But to be clear IF SHE HADN'T GOTTEN INTO THE CAR SHE WOULDN'T BE DEAD.

In determining who a suspect is in any criminal investigation detectives have to figure out method, motive and opportunity. It is that which the victim provides. We aren't talking about walking down a reasonably safe neighborhood, not flashing cash, not being drunk and minding one's business.

We're talking about a drunken idiot who was flashing her cash. Yes, if you lead a sheltered existance maybe that's acceptable - until you get into the real world. However I'm going to laugh at someone that does this and gets beaten up or worse for it. Failure to use common sense is a death sentence and should be considered such.

The debate isn't whether the perpetrators should have done it or not. The debate is that do you have a reasonable expectation of safety when doing things that aren't in your best interest. The answer to that is quite emphatically no.

I do not pity people that know better (or should) to whom bad things happen to. It's not about rights it's about opportunities.

"My opinion: You're gay, a troll, a gay troll, or in serious need of antidepressants." - horny smurf to Lemon Juice
[ Parent ]

One line. (none / 0) (#578)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 08:03:08 AM EST

"The debate isn't whether the perpetrators should have done it or not."

Actually, it is. If she hadn't got in the car, she wouldn't be dead. If she weren't a girl, she wouldn't be dead. She's naive and stupid, but entirely guiltless. Crimes are not lessened if they're easy to commit.

Disagree on the standing idly by the blood of thy neighbour, too. If someone collapses on the ground in front of me, I do have a moral obligation to stop, perform first aid and call an ambulance. It's irrelevant that it's not my fault it should happen in front of me. We do have moral duties to help those in need.

And we sure as hell have moral duties not to rape and kill people, even if they were stupid enough to make it possible.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

You're an idiot (1.33 / 3) (#441)
by kero on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 11:10:06 AM EST

So you would let the 3 guy's who kidnapped her and killed her stay out of jail because "she fucking deserved it." There is nothing someone can do, even being as big a dumbass as you apparently are, that would make them deserving of kidnapping, probably something akin to torture, and murder. Did she act stupidly? Probably. Does that justify anything? Nope, the people 100% responsible are the ones that killed her.

[ Parent ]
LUCKY FOR YOU IT'S NOT A CRIME (1.14 / 7) (#449)
by one4greenday on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:42:06 PM EST

Either you are just a jackass or you are a hyprocrite - maybe you are just a silly geek who never got to experience life. Natalee didn't get in to a car with just 3 guys who were total strangers . . . she got into the car with a guy she had been hanging around with off and on for a days and whose FATHER is a high ranking officer in the judicial system. Not only am I also pretty and blonde - I have years and years of work and studying in criminal investigations - Natalee did absolutely NOTHING that anyone in her place wouldn't have done. She was living her life to the fullest and trusted a guy she had spent time with and enjoyed his company. If you had it going on with a girl and she and her 2 friends picked you up, you'd go too. but guys are different, right? you can do anything and it's okay! if a girl does it, she is STUPID? she ASKED FOR IT? you are as worthless as the original ass who started all of this. YES, there should be more attention paid to every person who goes missing - but as one poster said "it had to do with her parents pushing" this out to the media to get help. AND, i suppose rather than writing derogatory remarks about a topic you know NOTHING about, you could get over to a different site and put your mouth to work trying to help find the thousands that are missing. AND, if you were a parent, and had a clue about caring about anyone besides yourself, you would be able to relate. All i can say is that i PRAY and WISH and HOPE that my two small sons will NEVER, EVER be like you or the other morons posting crap on this site. get the fuck over yourselves, look around, and pay attention to the human life around you. . . or, maybe it's true . . . it takes one to know one and you are so self-involved you wouldn't know love and caring if it smacked you in your silly face.

[ Parent ]
Erm... (3.00 / 3) (#458)
by The Diary Section on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 12:12:31 AM EST

she got into the car with a guy she had been hanging around with off and on for a days and whose FATHER is a high ranking officer in the judicial system.

What is the relevance of this chap's father's occupation?
Rich = good?

Stop pretending drunkenly taking lifts from people you hardly know is reasonable behaviour. I think you are being very irresponsible merely to try to win an argument; its neither loving nor caring.
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
[ Parent ]

watch your mouth! (none / 0) (#536)
by nostromo11 on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:06:24 PM EST

listen you man hating piece of turd. what if they have a videotape of natalie asking for it? she probably did. a well heeled guy walks into a rough neighbourhood, gets lynched. they tell him he was asking for it. a woman is sacroscent? why? i would really watch out before i got in a car with two girls, or any two strangers for the matter. i would be STUPID if i didn't. who the fuck are you to presume things about a man? you man hater turds are different. you want us to see women on a different ground. you want special concerns for women. nope! what natalie did defies common sense. you, dear turd, also defy common sense. leave your distorted explanations for some womans studies (read: man hating turd) course in some third rate university with other fucking twisted minds like yourself. freaking turd!

[ Parent ]
So if she's to blame ... (none / 0) (#482)
by meatsandwich on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 02:12:03 PM EST

...  I guess if she's found alive we should charge her with attempted rape and murder.

Risk and blame are two completely different things.

I don't know why you went off on that "women's liberation" rant. What's that got to do with anything?

 

[ Parent ]

He went off on it (none / 0) (#486)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 06:56:43 PM EST

because he's a misogynist of the worst kind. He's the kind of emasculated woman-hater who hates women having any power at all - even over rapists.

He's obviously been rejected by some woman who realised she didn't want such a sick fuck as her other half, and now he wants men to be able to rape with mitigation if not impunity.

I say to hell with him and he should die.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Obvious? (none / 0) (#492)
by artis on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 03:53:00 PM EST

He's obviously been rejected by some woman who realised she didn't want such a sick fuck as her other half, and now he wants men to be able to rape with mitigation if not impunity.
Your circular reasoning is the only obvious thing here.
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
I'm being charitable (none / 1) (#499)
by HollyHopDrive on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 06:56:49 AM EST

If he thinks that way without even being bitter about a past relationship, that's even worse.

The only men I've known who hate the idea of rapists always being held 100% responsible are the bitter products of nasty relationships. Similarly, the only misandristic all-men-are-bastards women I've ever known have also been through horrible break-ups.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

You missed the point (none / 0) (#511)
by artis on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 03:00:44 PM EST

I was picking upon the circular resoning (he is an asshole because he got rejected, which in turn did happen because he was an asshole) not the assumption itself (I'm simply don't want to open that can of worms right now).
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
No (none / 0) (#546)
by HollyHopDrive on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 04:29:29 PM EST

He's an asshole because he's a rapist-defending misogynistic bumwipe. This would certainly explain both why he probably got rejected and how he let it affect him. His assholery is not circular reasoning. It is entirely self-evident.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Sorry to see... (none / 0) (#558)
by artis on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 03:21:07 PM EST

...that logic escapes you, I will not bother your crusade any longer so feel free to continue flaming people who agree with you as well as those who disagree.
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
No, I'm sorrier to see (none / 0) (#563)
by HollyHopDrive on Tue Jul 26, 2005 at 06:52:36 AM EST

that you take offence at clarifications.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

More circular reasoning is no clarification [nt] (none / 0) (#570)
by artis on Tue Jul 26, 2005 at 07:40:11 PM EST


--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
More empty accusations (none / 0) (#573)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 04:58:30 AM EST

of circular reasoning are not substantiation for whatever point it is you claim to have.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Choose. (none / 0) (#582)
by artis on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 11:48:00 AM EST

Either he was always an asshole or he became one because he got rejected.
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
He was always an asshole (none / 0) (#583)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 12:01:16 PM EST

and became an even worse one when he got rejected.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

You are full of shit. (none / 0) (#586)
by artis on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 07:27:12 PM EST

It is self evident to anyone who reads your posts. Now feel free to attack your own "logic", I'm out of this article.
--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
You are a bad loser. (none / 0) (#587)
by HollyHopDrive on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 05:47:58 AM EST

And you don't get credit for whinging, making entirely empty and unsubstantiated responses, and then buggering off because you can't support any of the daft "points" you wish you had.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Imagine (none / 1) (#531)
by Harvey Anderson on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 04:54:05 PM EST

you have a street that has numerous, huge signs all up and down saying, "Warning! Rapists are all over here! If you come in, there's a good chance you'll be raped!" Some girl goes walking in, and gets raped. Now it's fine to say that's still illegal, and yay for that, but it's also fair to say that the girl has also put herself, by her own will and with full knowledge, into a situation that is likely to turn out bad for her.

[ Parent ]
Oh for fuck's sake (none / 0) (#541)
by HollyHopDrive on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 03:30:25 PM EST

First of all, that's nothing like the situation being described here, so I shouldn't even dignify it with an answer, but hey.

Secondly, a crime is not mitigated because it was easy. A victim's vulnerability does not lessen a crime, particularly not one as unspeakable as rape.

Thirdly, knowingly putting yourself at risk still makes the person who attacked you wholly responsible. I put myself at risk of abduction every time I leave my house, but if someone attacks me, he is still going to be held 100% reliable by the courts, and rightly so.

For crying out loud.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Hey, feminist whiner: (none / 0) (#547)
by Harvey Anderson on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 06:32:25 PM EST

I don't think anything you said is something my post disagreed with.

[ Parent ]
I love it! (none / 0) (#551)
by HollyHopDrive on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 06:10:44 AM EST

Thanks for lowering yourself and your credibility. "Feminist" is not an insult, you know, and your thinking that it is says more about you than me. Furthermore, a reasoned response to what you said is not whining.

But I love the fact that you had to try to use a simple word in a pejorative sense with no reason and call a proper response "whining" because you couldn't think of anything better. You lose. I win.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

What are you talking about? (none / 0) (#553)
by Harvey Anderson on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 08:41:57 AM EST

I wasn't using feminist in a negative way!

[ Parent ]
Error (none / 0) (#542)
by HollyHopDrive on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 03:31:42 PM EST

I meant "100% responsible", of course. Because person A's stupidity does not make person B any less responsibly for violent crimes he chooses to carry out.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Oh, flaming Nora (none / 0) (#545)
by HollyHopDrive on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 04:24:59 PM EST

"Any less responsible", I meant, of course.

I am seriously jet lagged.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

stfu ninny (none / 0) (#597)
by kbudha on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 05:02:43 PM EST

You're a man hater. Whats the matter did you not get any attention back in high school.

[ Parent ]
Ah, of course (none / 0) (#615)
by HollyHopDrive on Mon Aug 01, 2005 at 12:28:31 PM EST

Abhorring rapist-defenders and misogynists makes me a ball-bashing man-hater. I see. Well, don't tell my boyfriend or my male friends, my brother-in-law or my boss. They haven't twigged yet.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

422nd comment right here kids (2.00 / 4) (#423)
by UNITE on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 08:03:56 PM EST

My best trole yet

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
You Fail It n/t (none / 1) (#428)
by benna on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 11:38:11 PM EST


-
"It is not how things are in the world that is mystical, but that it exists." -Ludwig Wittgenstein
[ Parent ]
More than ever before! (none / 0) (#426)
by UncannyVortex on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 09:24:21 PM EST

Looks like about 15 emails from here.  Where's the fire, gents?  Frankly I'm disappointed.

This reminds me of those local news stories where they show 5 or 6 people standing outside an office building carrying signs, and bill it as a major story of protest and controversy.

So... (3.00 / 4) (#431)
by Pseudonym on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 01:06:53 AM EST

This means rusty is cool again, right?


sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
Dear god no (3.00 / 3) (#459)
by rusty on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 12:44:19 AM EST

I'm still hated. Don't worry about that. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
That's not what he asked (3.00 / 3) (#478)
by ubu on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 11:59:55 AM EST

Of course you're hated. Look in the mirror, Rusty, you know why. The question was, Is Rusty cool again? And I think that the answer is definitely Yes. If you can keep shit like this up, K5 will be back on the map in no time. The FuckNatHol story is one of 3 external links for Natalee Holloway in her Wikipedia entry.

Obviously, you're not intimidated by the hate mail. I saw Hotel Rwanda on video the other night; compared to angry Hutus, Americans armed with email are fuckin' pussies; we both know this. See what you can do to encourage more of these inflammatory articles, because honestly, fuck it. America needs more of this shit.


--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
Hey thanks (none / 0) (#480)
by rusty on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 12:58:17 PM EST

Long time no see.

As for encouraging inflammatory articles, I'm not sure what I can do other than vote for them. I mean, this one I certainly helped out more substantially, but the opportunity for something like this doesn't arise very often.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

You're welcome (1.33 / 3) (#496)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 12:59:56 AM EST

;)

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]
We hate him for the $70K (1.25 / 4) (#498)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 01:01:09 AM EST

But we love him for helping me post this.

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]
Hopefully some of my essence rubbed (1.66 / 3) (#497)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 01:00:34 AM EST

off on him (   -   ;

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]
natalee holloway (1.44 / 9) (#433)
by ihave2sons on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 01:47:37 AM EST

I cannot believe that the very first word in any story is the one you chose. This is an absolute outrage and you should be at best fired, at worst sued if it were possible. This represents everything that is wrong with this crazy world. How else would anyone find their child if not for news and TV? I would try to tear the island down with my bare hands. I personally think if the world is going to be filled with weirdos, child molesters, rapists, and tactless, unfeeling individuals such as yourself, we need to have to establish some sort of army to go look for missing kids where ever they are and when caught establish enough laws and punishment that it never happens again. God help your child if you are a parent.

Hey, why don't you send your 2 sons (3.00 / 3) (#435)
by shm on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:50:31 AM EST

to get drunk. Or to hell. We don't care.

[ Parent ]
You obviously don't understand this site (2.50 / 2) (#436)
by benna on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 06:08:16 AM EST

Stories can be submitted by anyone, and they are voted on by the members of the site.  There will be no firings.
-
"It is not how things are in the world that is mystical, but that it exists." -Ludwig Wittgenstein
[ Parent ]
I highly agree (none / 1) (#443)
by jeremy on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 12:24:37 PM EST

He should be fired from K5 for such an egregious comment.

[ Parent ]
Cunt Nat (3.00 / 3) (#446)
by veasun on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 02:14:57 PM EST

My, my....so many little pig-eyed Puritans using the naughty F word. It is boring, just like the Hollowbrain-Twittys. So, farewell fair cunt. See you in hell.

[ Parent ]
nice troll : ) (none / 0) (#466)
by Kurosawa Nagaya on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:29:39 AM EST

Unless you are for real.

The I'm gonna have to tell you to take your head out of your ass and read the fucking article.

Understand, it has little to do with the tradgedy of natalee's but more so the tradgedy that befalls those that do not get the same attention as she has.

The reason for this is simple: we're all full of shit ~ circletimessquare
[ Parent ]

Fuck You (none / 0) (#509)
by HKDOUBLEZ on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 02:19:25 PM EST

How does that sound to you? While you were busy picking a word from the beginning of the story I came to the conclusion that this is the best story I have read in a long time on here. This post is brilliantly clear, organized, and inciteful. Did you even read it? Tell me that after 5 weeks and the thousands of dollars being used in this investigation that you see the point. Then I can slap you in your face and tell you there is none. The girls dead, or being raped in europe as we speak. Just because she is a white semi-attractive female from US we need to waste news time on her when there are more important things going on. - Read the Article again.
Mike Graf
[ Parent ]
Fuck Natalee Holloway (none / 0) (#632)
by jbond1038nc1 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 01:19:01 AM EST

I like his article. I'm damn tired of hearing Beth Holloway too. She just wants a book/movie deal. Screw the Holloway/Twitty famalies.

[ Parent ]
Did they not read the article.... (2.50 / 2) (#447)
by macshaggy on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 02:39:30 PM EST

I actually thought the article was pretty good. Should the poster have stated "Fuck"? Well that is an editorial decision. I found it interesting in the sense that what about that little boy, who was taken with his sister and she was later found, that is still missing? Because they caught the guy who snatched them both and the little girl the news has stopped really reporting it. In fact I don't really remember reading about it until after she was found and the jerk was caught. But I haven't been able to stop hearing about Ms. Holloway - whose family is in my prayers. The keys point has been that if Ms. Holloway was not White and American this story would not have really found it way onto CNN. I don't believe in blaming the victim but the circumstances are that what was she doing with anyone she doesn't know and why was she even accepting a ride. The real story is where were the chapporones in all this? Whether she was 18 or not a school trip as this has played out isn't there anyone really watching what these kids were doing or going?
Sometimes you have to ask yourself - What would Scooby-Doo?
He should not have used that headline (none / 1) (#468)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:47:40 AM EST

as it was thoughtless and insensitive. But he did have a right to use it. Offence is the price we pay for freedom of speech.

He didn't call for harm upon anyone or incite hatred or violence. He just caused a lot of offence. That's the price we pay for free speech. The price he pays is getting flamed by others exercising their own rights to free speech.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

it is now the number one hit on google (2.00 / 2) (#456)
by modmans2ndcoming on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 09:59:03 PM EST

congratulations!!!!!

Jesus Christ (3.00 / 5) (#475)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:34:35 AM EST

Now "Fuck Natalee Holloway" is at number one, and this thread's at number two. Check it out.

Next time anyone complains that tabloids and media are all about sensationalism, let us not forget this phenomenon, and the glee that surrounded it.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.

Ironic (2.33 / 3) (#479)
by murry on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 12:45:18 PM EST

the bad choice of title on a really insightful post has turned it into the same kind of sensationalism that it challenges.

Ah, that explains it, then. (2.83 / 6) (#483)
by ethereal on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 02:59:04 PM EST

Why don't we hear about other missing children and people to the degree of Natalee Holloway?  Easy answer.  Her parents pulled out all the stops.  They are going to use everything available to find her.  Other missing people or children?  Simple.  Their parents or spouses did not use every possible path to find them.

Clearly, parents of all those missing black kids that don't make it onto national news, just don't love their children enough.  What is wrong with those people, anyway?

"Chopped" is easily an order of magnitude more interesting than the original "Fuck" story, IMHO.

--

Stand up for your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and State

As the author of this story (none / 0) (#495)
by UNITE on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 12:57:55 AM EST

I appreciate your kindness.

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]
"but we musn't blame (none / 0) (#574)
by vivelame on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 05:12:00 AM EST

the victims, OH NO!"

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
Why it's all over the media. (none / 0) (#489)
by JavaLord on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 12:54:20 PM EST

The US media is all over this story for a few reasons: 1. There has been a string of sexual abduction stories over the past few months in the media, and I'm sure they were expecting natalee to have shown up raped and dead by now. 2. This is an international incedent. The fact that it happened in Aruba makes it a 'more compelling' story, and a 'it could happen to anyone' story. 3. Sex/Murder stories on the news get more ratings than political ones unless it's a presidental election year. I hate this fact, but it's the truth. I have to say, I am sick of hearing every detail of her case as well. While I feel for her family, I'm sick of hearing the same thing reported every day about it. I think there are bigger stories and debates going on, the one about China buying Unicol is huge. Considering the US trade deficit with China, and the fact that we couldn't buy a chinese company if we wanted to I would think it would be more of an issue. As for the e-mails, you guys only got 10-15 of them? If you are only getting 10-15 hate e-mails while running a website you are doing something wrong. ;)

Well, (none / 0) (#507)
by Abominable Abitur on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 01:37:48 PM EST

The hatemail was received by people that don't "get" what this story is about or even more importantly, how this "community? works. Those in the know that were opposed to the story or with a different opinion of the story just responded within the story itself.

As is the way it should be.

"Terrorism is only a viable "political activist" method for marginalized nutjobs, bottom line. The backlash that it causes makes it intractable for any reasonable ideology. Which is why you don't generally see wild athiest suicide bombers in america's streets." - lonelyhobo
[ Parent ]

GJ on handling the negative comments (3.00 / 2) (#491)
by packMule on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 01:39:22 PM EST

I appreciate the display of the negative emails. This site always impressed me with the openness of unfiltered opinions from all. I did get the point of the article, and was not offended - nor did I feel it was in bad taste - taking into account where and how I saw it. I willingly read this site, and I asked for it. If a billboard, major newspaper or tv show had a statement like that, I would would think it in very bad taste (understanding the content of the article making that strange). This site and others like it are a good outlet for these types of (sometimes controversial) comments. People who do not like it may choose to not look. K5 - Keep it open and unfiltered, and do NOT remove that article (or fire the journalist.. I love that one :).

Can you say - 'Douche Bag' (2.50 / 2) (#508)
by HKDOUBLEZ on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 02:04:14 PM EST

This is directed to one user in particular,John Fahs, but also applies to all the other facist bastards sending hate mail. First of all John - go complain to anyone you want- they still can't help you grow some nuts. You think you are soooo cool that you can mention the FCC- you wouldn't even know what to say to them. Who gave you the right to state what is acceptable - thats right, 'no one would ever do that' because we dont allow assholes like you to speak anymore. With that I 'request' that you go hang yourself because I find your opinions 'unnaceptable'.
  - Thank you
-------------------------------------------------
Subject: your actionable website
From: John Fahs
Date: 07/06/2005 03:43 PM

I am writing to inform you that i find your website, specifically the "fuck natalee holloway" piece, unacceptable. I request that you remove this horrible travesty at once, as it is an affront to decent people everywhere and totally unprotected by the first amendment. I am so disgusted, I do not have the words to tell you what a low opinion I have of you for allowing this garbage. I think a formal complaint to the FCC and other legal authorities is in order.
-------------------------------------------------
Mike Graf

Nice to see someone is on the ball <NT> (none / 0) (#514)
by kero on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 03:58:19 PM EST



[ Parent ]
shut up you sissy crybabies (2.60 / 5) (#515)
by kbudha on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 04:34:25 PM EST

First I'd like to thank Unite for his post.This post was too good not to get in on. Second I'd like to thank gbd for pointing out the other kidnapped(possibly raped and murdered) people out there. The people whose families lack the OBVIOUS money and POSSIBLE political connections to stage such a massive search effort.The capitalized words are for you dense viewers. Wouldn't want anybody to confuse my words or accuse me of being a fucking liberal. If Shasta Groene(missing 8 year old girl, Idaho) got 1/4 of the effort that Natalie got, she would not have spent the last 2 months in hell. And her entire family was mudered,they found the bodies in the first 12 hours. So can the pathetic excuses for how the Holloways are mustering this. They are either quite rich or they have govt ties. And shut up about other peoples child rearing skills. You know not what you talk about.And do not talk about what you would do, for you are full of shit, yes you are. Third I want to say STFU you sissy crybabies. NONE of you are donating or contributing to Natalies rescue effort. You don't know shit and neither do I! Do not runneth ur mouth about anything, in the grand scheme of things your opinion doesn't matter, nor you. Some geniuses will reply to this with "neither do you". Aaah so hurtful, I think I'll cry now. Then I'll have something in common with you twits. ARROGANT,OBNOXIOUS,HYPOCRITES All your doing is posting on some blog,in between masterbating and laying your fat ass on the couch. Acting all offended cuz in real life face to face your pussy asses are too scared to get angry at someone and fight about it.Do not worry children I will not stomp your face in after I knock you the fuck out!!!! I will simply walk away. As for Natalie,I pray God gives her the light and love. Because she is dead, and there never gonna find the body. If her parents really wanted to spend their money the right way they need to find a merc. Someone who will go to Aruba and get answers once all this blows over. Outside the states so its legal. In the end the 3 fucks will wish they wouldve confessed and gone to jail. Ohh yeah, Karma comes around 10 fold.So all you idiots out there wishing bad stuff to happen on people are gonna get it back. RIGHT IN YOUR ASSES!

hmmm (none / 0) (#519)
by UNITE on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 07:08:49 PM EST

First I'd like to thank Unite for his post.

thanks suh

8======A==Proud==Author==of==the==FNH==nastygram==story====D ~~~
[ Parent ]

Interesting study (3.00 / 4) (#516)
by Haxx on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 09:37:10 PM EST

The question here is:

Do the people who are enraged about the "Fuck Natalee" article have the capacity to understand that the article is a rant about the culture distorting problem of "Infotainment"?

And.

Do the people who are ultimatly concerned about the negative effects of "infotainment" have the capacity to understand that many people will be enraged if you say "Fuck her" to a teenage girl who possibly was raped and murdered?


I propose a solution.

2 new articles:

"Compassion for Natalee"

And.

"Fuck Infotainment"


Half of you go this way. Half of you go that way.

-Can't we all get along?

Move Past The Froth And Taste The Coffee (none / 0) (#529)
by gruntydatsun on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 08:57:55 PM EST

Couldn't agree more. The puritanical frothy-mouthed volvo-driving-soccer-mum how-dare-you approach has been done to death by the knee jerks on this thread. I see three issues raised here: 1. Media outlets sensationalizing stories in order to sell more advertising and directly profit from the misery of this child 2. Knee-jerk patriots who publicly scream down anyone who doesn't conform to their standards of mindless reactionism. 3. American cast system in which "good rich white folk" are excessively pandered to when in need while "mudbloods" are abandoned to die by their government and the holier-than-thou media. I went through similar feelings about Schapelle Corby after several weeks of saturated "Woe is Schapelle" specials, articles, interviews, news stories, current affairs programs, etc, etc, etc.... which were interspersed with the longest sets of advertisements I've ever seen. At one point 14 advertisements in a row were aired while I waited to hear more one-eyed commentary from grossly biased Australian reporters. No Australian report mentioned her juvenile drug record, or that of her father and sister. Funny how facts that don't support the media's "angle" are suppressed. Wouldn't want those inconvenient facts to cut this story short and terminate our advertising gravy train.
GRUNTY DATSUN ============== "Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." --George Washington
[ Parent ]
Thank goodness for K5 (2.77 / 9) (#520)
by Golden Hawk on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 09:34:47 PM EST

This is exactly the reason why I think K5 exists.  Not to propagate links to corporate media, or to publish boring human interest stories.

When I see all these cries to "fire" the store writer, it makes me realize that it's all about bringing out issues that would be too risque for publication.  A traditional media outlet would buckle under that pressure, but K5 stands tall.
-- Daniel Benoy

Elizabeth Anderson Bell sic? (3.00 / 2) (#521)
by lukateake on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 02:37:14 PM EST

C'mon, she's clearly fucked up. You could have [sic]'ed the "timy" at least. No, on second thought, it's funnier this way.

Keep doing what you're doing, K5! I love you.

Luke.....

and that is what I have been saying ALL along. (1.33 / 3) (#522)
by biggunsar on Mon Jul 18, 2005 at 05:12:47 AM EST

Sure, it's thier fault for murdering her. But it's entirely her fault for giving them the opportunity. It's as simple as that.

It's laughable (none / 1) (#564)
by HollyHopDrive on Tue Jul 26, 2005 at 11:48:48 AM EST

that you can see neither the complete absence of basic morality nor the blatant logical contradiction in your stupid post, you big fat stupid ugly virginal small-dicked vomit stain.

Walk in front of me and give me the opportunity to kill you. I will do it gladly, and will persuade the judge that it was your fault for making it possible.

Dickhead.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

hypocrite (none / 1) (#566)
by kbudha on Tue Jul 26, 2005 at 04:26:14 PM EST

you're just as bad. Preach morality then threaten to kill the person.You sound like some angry bitter woman who's been hurt. Stop going after the "alpha males",they won't appreciate you. And you ain't about to kill no one little girl.I'm surprised you can spell contradiction.And I'm noticing when you insult someone(mainly who you think might be a man)lack of sex and dick size come into play.How deep and original that is.Is that the best you got.Tell me are you a rape victim.Considering dick size is always on your mind I think not.

[ Parent ]
Alpha males? (none / 1) (#572)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 04:54:37 AM EST

I've got one already, thanks. The best men are the ones who aren't rapist defenders.

You silly sod. Can't you tell the difference between a serious threat and a rhetorical point? Can't you punctuate?

Moron.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

doubt that (none / 0) (#608)
by kbudha on Mon Aug 01, 2005 at 08:21:01 AM EST

considering how much of an overbearing know-it-all, judgemental bitch you are.Most men with any sense of dignity wouldn't fuck with a girl like you.

[ Parent ]
Doubt it all you like. (none / 0) (#614)
by HollyHopDrive on Mon Aug 01, 2005 at 12:23:28 PM EST

I had a lovely weekend with a kind, caring, generous man who thinks rape is evil and inexcusable. We're going to Venice later this year.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Hmm (none / 0) (#616)
by The Diary Section on Mon Aug 01, 2005 at 12:44:17 PM EST

I had a lovely weekend with a kind, caring, generous man

Gonna dump him when you get back huh. He's toast.
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
[ Parent ]

Likely Chain of Events (2.71 / 7) (#532)
by TheNoxx on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 05:06:41 AM EST

1. Rich girl gets drunk
2. Horny frat guys slip something in girl's drink
3. Girl stops breathing
4. Frat guys freak, have rich, white trustfund-endangerment related diarrhea, dispose of body off side of yacht
5. Terrorists blamed

Where are... (3.00 / 6) (#535)
by Bluesee on Thu Jul 21, 2005 at 05:35:36 PM EST

The Kuro5hin ASCII Re-enactment Players when you really, really need them?

[ Parent ]
Stupidity (1.66 / 3) (#533)
by Gonads and Strife on Wed Jul 20, 2005 at 11:12:51 PM EST

It's obvious she gave them the opportunity to take advantage on her. I heard she was alone, unchaperoned on the trip. The question is, how did she get to know these boys in the first place? Why would you be alone with people you don't know? Where were her friends and why didn't she bring anyone with her? If you're going somewhere, it's the right thing to NOT be alone. It's just pure stupidity to put yourself at such a disadvantage, and she probably knew what she was getting into. Even the slightest feeling of discomfort about someone can lead to bigger clues about the person, which means you should avoid them. Just a general rule of thumb there. And don't be alone, looking for male hookers at 3 am. Or whatever you want to call them. Alone with males at 3am is not a good idea. It's just obvious what the purpose of her doing that was.


"Never pick a fight with an ugly person, they've got nothing to lose." -Robin Williams
Lol WTF? (none / 1) (#554)
by Have A Nice Day on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 12:13:57 PM EST

Erm, whilst there IS some risk in picking up strange men in a foreign country, that doesn't make it her fault she got kidnapped/murdered whatever, it makes the men evil and her naive.

You're sounding like one of those "well your honour, I'd say it's not rape because she was wearing a short skirt, which is asking for it really" assholes that I thought we'd moved past in the civilised world?

--------------
Have A Nice Day may have reentered the building.
[ Parent ]
There's a discussion just like that (none / 1) (#555)
by HollyHopDrive on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 12:25:10 PM EST

further down in this thread. Apparently there are still those who think women who are not draped in burkas are forcing men to rape them.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Yeah, spotted that (none / 0) (#557)
by Have A Nice Day on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 12:45:43 PM EST

I really thought that those flawed lines of thought had been washed away by the tides of time....

Always amazes me how many people think just totally differently to me. I mean totally differently, in ways I can't even begin to comprehend really.

--------------
Have A Nice Day may have reentered the building.
[ Parent ]
women unite (none / 0) (#567)
by kbudha on Tue Jul 26, 2005 at 04:40:10 PM EST

MEN ARE EVIL! Tonight we shall sit in a circle of power and discuss our inner goddess.Lol. Personally I think you should chill.In other countries you'd be slaves in a cage. Some guy posts an anti-sympathy and next thing he's a caveman with a small dick.If I go to some strange block I bring either my best friend or my "little friend".Theres always a bigger fish.Women are physically weaker than men. Its a fact.Now all hear this,"Nobody(mostly anyways) deserves to get raped or murdered" But Natalie receives 0 sympathy points for climbing into some car, with 3 strange men,by herself,at 2 am, in a foreign country,while she was drinking.The End

[ Parent ]
You poor, poor sod. (none / 0) (#577)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 07:58:45 AM EST

We want rapists held entirely accountable, and you think this is misandristic man-bashing with a dollop of psychobabble thrown in.

How does it feel to tell everyone they're stupid when you can barely string a sentence together and have no moral compass to speak of?


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

string this along (none / 0) (#579)
by kbudha on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 10:22:54 AM EST

Once again, just because a man has no sympathy automatically he thinks rape is alright.Right? GIVE IT A REST.And you are man bashing. I read your other weak-ass insults.As for your gramatical superiority, I COULD FUCKING CARE LESS! You probably ain't got a clue about Calculus,Trigonometry,Electronic Engineering,or Computer Science.All of which I am decently to well versed.Everyones got their weak points.Yours is being way too uptight.

[ Parent ]
I hate to break it to you (none / 0) (#581)
by HollyHopDrive on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 11:43:08 AM EST

but calculus, trigonometry, electronic engineering and computer science have got slightly less than bugger all to do with this debate, so it's useless mentioning them in the bizarre hope that knowing their names might lend credence to your view.

You don't need to have sympathy for anyone. But to say, as you did, that victims share responsibility for making their attacks possible, demonstrates a complete lack of morality. To do it in a fit of shouting, telling everyone they're stupid, when you garble the simplest sentences, is just laughable.

Got that?


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

never said that either (none / 0) (#584)
by kbudha on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 02:25:08 PM EST

Read before you open your mouth.(0 sympathy- thats it)Someone else said some dumb shit about her deserving it. Sounds good when you use big words. And the majority masses are stupid. Im sure you feel the same way, even though you won't admit it to me. And here is my "credence". I'm not shouting or garbling the simplest sentences. Stop acting like some PhD Havard graduate.Christ you must be a woman. Always gotta have the last word.Now you've shifted from insulting my dick size to insulting my intelligence. Bravo, so clever.There I'm done. Respond all you want. I'm sure you will.

[ Parent ]
The words are too big for you? (none / 0) (#588)
by HollyHopDrive on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 05:57:00 AM EST

Sorry, I'll write it in stupid language so you can understand it. Sadly, I'll be punctuating and spelling as I should do, so you still might find it tough, but persevere. And yes, I am responding, but since you're so dignified and so far above me, I'm sure you'll be very happy to let me have the last word. Suits me fine.

We were talking about rapists being held entirely responsible. You then cut in accusing me of being a man-hating female supremacist because I insisted rape victims bear no responsibility for the crimes committed against them.

You should be grateful your dick size and intelligence are the only things I picked up on. Attacking your integrity, such as it is, is a much harder blow, not that you'd have realised.


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

fuck it (none / 0) (#593)
by kbudha on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 12:36:11 PM EST

I was going to let you win but since you're such a contemptuos little shit,FUCK IT."Sorry, I'll write it in stupid language so you can understand it."- pardon me for not having all day to write a 1200 word essay.Its called a life.Put down the dictionary, you're not that smart,"you post to K5 for God's sake". "since you're so dignified and so far above me"- I tend not to judge people like you do, even if their mouths spew endless streams of shit. "We were talking about rapists being held entirely responsible. You then cut in accusing me of being a man-hating female supremacist because I insisted rape victims bear no responsibility for the crimes committed against them." ONCE AGAIN FOR THE RECORD: ZERO-SYMPATHY , SHE DESERVED IT. Here let me explain since you don't respect anything short of a master thesis. That symbol means does not equal. And you are man-bashing since the only insult you could muster for numerous guys who offended your sensitive ass,was the good old small-dick, lack of sex, no one wants to fuck your ugly ass routine."Attacking your integrity, such as it is, is a much harder blow, not that you'd have realised."-you don't even know me.Only a fool would judge someone so. You ever stop to think I was just stirring the fire. "You should be grateful your dick size and intelligence are the only things I picked up on."- pick up on this, my cock in your mouth you stupid bitch. The only reason outspoken, loud mouthed, self righteous twits like you can sound off is because of guys like me( the ones who gave you civil rights and the right to vote-because we DON'T beleive your place is only in the kitchen , barefoot and pregnant)You probably think I'm some pro-life ass as well. Go ahead, judge all you want.But stop warping peoples words, you just sound like an ass. PS-I don't give a fuck about my bad grammar.STFU

[ Parent ]
aww man no fair (none / 0) (#594)
by kbudha on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 12:37:34 PM EST

it canceled out my not equal to symbol

[ Parent ]
Jesus Christ (none / 0) (#600)
by HollyHopDrive on Fri Jul 29, 2005 at 08:05:40 AM EST

You think that's the only thing that made you look like a blithering, illiterate and immoral idiot in that rant? What's wrong with you?


I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Looks like somebody hit a nerve (1.50 / 2) (#601)
by Have A Nice Day on Sat Jul 30, 2005 at 11:44:39 AM EST

My god your prejudices are leaking out all over the floor!

The only reason people like Holly (women) got the vote and equalr rights is because people lik eyou don't believe she should be stuck in the kitchen? So it's only by your graceful permission that women get to vote, because you allow it?

What a fucking throwback, you seriously need help. Women get equal rights because they are equal beings, not by some decree from big, strong, charitable males, that want the little woman to get out the house once in a while.

Lol, you're nuts.

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Have A Nice Day may have reentered the building.
[ Parent ]
voted in by men (none / 0) (#609)
by kbudha on Mon Aug 01, 2005 at 08:25:51 AM EST

The amendment was voted in by men. This "throwback" wishes other people would mind their own business and not take my comebacks too seriously.Considering I'm arguing with an idiot(HollyHop) who twists words, then the best she can come back with is either a dick size joke or commenting on my grammar.And yes, she did hit a nerve when she called me immoral with no integrity. You don't judge a person until u know them.

[ Parent ]
Way to be Ignorant (none / 0) (#565)
by kate740 on Tue Jul 26, 2005 at 03:35:13 PM EST

Why does society have this attitude of victim blaming? Just because someone is drunk does not mean that it's okay to take advantage of him/her. If one your girl friends was walking home alone and was attacked, would you blame her for walking by herself? She should have known that she was putting herself in a dangerous situation right? If I want to walk alone and am attacked, I am not to blame. Just because Natalee Holloway did not make the best decisions, does not mean she deserved what happened to her. Society (and you) need to start blaming the perpetrators of crimes and not the victims.

[ Parent ]
Thank you, (none / 0) (#621)
by AliciaC on Sat Aug 20, 2005 at 11:53:09 PM EST

Intelligent life is still on this planet

[ Parent ]
smart woman (none / 0) (#622)
by kbudha on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 08:30:46 AM EST

Omg a women who agrees that any dumb bitch who goes off alone in Aruba with 3 guys at 2AM is asking for trouble. Its a miracle!!!!!

[ Parent ]
Love Thy Neighbor? (1.11 / 9) (#560)
by islandgirl on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 08:50:20 PM EST

So much hate. So much bigotry and destructiveness. We are all part of the whole. We are all human beings. In the eyes of God, no one is more, or less important than anyone else. Newsflash: the media IS unfair in its coverage - it's a BUSINESS. But to post the vicious, hate-filled messages on this site is equally wrong. What happened to your humanity? Why is your heart so filled with anger and hatred? There are bigots in every race, every society, every culture. No group is free of it. So please don't stereotype unless you're including yourself. Yes, the important issues of the world include poverty, racism, terrorism, war and disease. But have we grown so cynical as to dismiss even one human life as meaningless? How can we make the world a better place when we diminish even one life? God loves us ALL. So should we. Thank you for your time.
"The Greatest of These is Love."
Suck my balls (2.57 / 7) (#571)
by uptownpimp on Tue Jul 26, 2005 at 10:26:30 PM EST

Tell this religious bull shit at your next boogle meeting.

=========================
My name is actmodern and I approve of this message.
[ Parent ]
Sucking your balls... (none / 0) (#604)
by islandgirl on Sat Jul 30, 2005 at 09:14:02 PM EST

..would require you to have them. My comments weren't directed to you angry atheist. Mind your own.
"The Greatest of These is Love."
[ Parent ]
No... suck my balls... (none / 0) (#624)
by nietzsches nipple on Thu Sep 22, 2005 at 08:25:14 PM EST

I have them. It's quite obvious. God does not love Natalee.
!!
[ Parent ]
What kills me (none / 1) (#561)
by chanceofrainne on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 11:57:53 PM EST

Is these fuckers who bitch about how their freedom of speech allows them to spew Natalie's stupid ass all over television and the Internet and every other form of media, and conventiently forget that MY freedom of speech allows me to bitch as loudly as I want about it. It's a funny thing - there's a whole amendment in the BILL OF FUCKING RIGHTS that says I'm allowed to stand on the summit of Stone Mountain and scream in the direction of Birmingham "NATALEE HOLLOWAY WAS A FUCKING MORON FOR PUTTING HERSELF IN THAT SITUATION AND I DON'T GIVE A FUCK WHAT HAPPENED TO HER!!!!!" Freedom of speech isn't there to protect speech you WANT to hear, ASSHOLES!

To Beth Halloway (1.20 / 5) (#568)
by kbudha on Tue Jul 26, 2005 at 04:45:32 PM EST

PLZ-Wait for this to blow over.Hire some merc to go to Aruba and get the info you need.Need some illumination, watch "Man on Fire" with Denzel Washington.There are people out there that would do anything to get the job done for say about 15 grand.

any responses to this (none / 0) (#592)
by kbudha on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 12:05:04 PM EST

plz see my identical comment on the other Natalie thread

[ Parent ]
Hilarious use of typo in main heading (none / 1) (#610)
by Brinstar on Mon Aug 01, 2005 at 09:54:28 AM EST

Also, someone probably mentioned this already, but try googling now for said young woman and guess what the first hit is? :)

"Im finally sick of it" (3.00 / 2) (#618)
by The Diary Section on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 10:44:29 AM EST

Some top quality whining is to be found here. I love the way they link to the FNH story half a dozen times and then point the finger of blame at Wikipedia.

And is it too much to hope for!?:

Notify Geraldo, Greta & Bill O'Reily....they may be over the top sometimes, but their coverage would probably result in it being gone by Tuesday... I've emailed both.

Fingers crossed eh.
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.

No data found (3.00 / 4) (#620)
by KlausBreuer on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 01:25:19 PM EST

Hi!

Well, living in Germany, my first thought was "Who's this Natalee Somethingorother"?
I checked my primary news resource: the 'Sueddeutsche Zeitung', a large and good newspaper from Germany, also available on the net (http://www.sueddeutsche.de).

It didn't find anything. No articles about her. No mention.

Instead, today I found an article ("Top Theme") about the soil in Alaska unfreezing for the first time in 120,000 years. Much more important, don't you think?

I think I like living here.
---
"What, I need a *reason* for everything?" -- Calvin
"Should I or shouldn't I? Too late, I did!" -- Hobbes

Natalee (none / 0) (#623)
by Gwylld on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 12:31:54 PM EST

So I was in a hole. More worried about Iraqi constitutions and what-not. Did not even hear about this until today when Media Bistro was running a story about how Larry King was rejected for trying to do a show about NH. So I go out to get some background... and k5 seems the best source. Once I saw her picture I understood what it was all about. I can't add much except for the fact that blond women (teens, children) always seem to get much more coverage than others. Who was the little kid that was on the covers of the tabloids for years? I think this comes from the need to have good looking people fill the screen of 24 hour news stations so if they get a heart rending story with a missing blond girl they are set. I feel that much of the public interest that exists is more from the titilation that viewers get imagining the rape and possible murder of this young blond girl. It gives them a "wholesome" reason to have these thoughts and they love it and can't get enough. I do have to agree that she was badly instructed by her parents if she was putting herself in a position to be abducted. If I were her mother I am sure I would have told Natalee not to go to beaches at ngiht with strange boys. Or that putting out in the back seat of cars might lead to getting someone over excited. Or that you can never trust rich Euro boys to respect your 'no' without a bit more resistance. I hate how this country is making it more and more unpleasent to be an American. I am starting to run out of excuses...

Fuck Natalee Holloway (2.50 / 2) (#625)
by Witchey on Sun Sep 25, 2005 at 12:31:30 PM EST

I realize that I have come late to the party on this one: I just joined kuro5shin. BTW, this link currently comes up #5 in a Google search for "Natalee Holloway." I don't think this item would have gotten anywhere near as much hate mail if not for its ill-advised title, which really doesn't have much to do with the gist if the story. Then again, I'm guessing that was part of the author's dastardly plan. The title aside, I enjoyed the article, I think it made some very good points. The author isn't saying anything that hasn't been mentioned vigorously elsewhere. And he has a point: the missing people cases that grab this country's attention overwhelming seem to be white middle class. Some other members have commented that Natalee Holloway's disappearance has received so much publicity because the family raised holy hell, and other disappearances go relatively unheard off because thoses families did not. I HUGELY disagree with the simplicity of that idea. Many families do not know how to begin to garner media attention for their mssing loved ones, nor do they have the resources to even if they were media savvy. Others are too poor, too uneducated, or too black for the mainstream media to pick up their story. Finally, one member commented that the "Fuck Natalee Holloway" piece is not protected under the U.S. Constitution's provision for freedeom of speech. Ah, but it is: it is especially to protect those speeches that are unpopular for which the provision was created. The main reason I joined this site was its apparent willingness to publish speech that may offend, and its unwillingness to yank those items in the face of memeber or public pressure. You go, guys.

Note that on k5, you'll get tons of hate mail (none / 1) (#627)
by your_desired_username on Sun Sep 25, 2005 at 03:41:20 PM EST

if you don't learn to use paragraphs!

Break that text up with some \<p\> tags.

[ Parent ]

thanks (none / 0) (#628)
by Witchey on Sun Sep 25, 2005 at 06:23:48 PM EST

I only realized after had I posted that it was in html. Yes, I know there's a box at the bottom that tells me its html formatted -- which I ignored.

I got it now, thanks!

[ Parent ]
unfortunately it's crippled html. (none / 0) (#629)
by your_desired_username on Sun Sep 25, 2005 at 08:16:17 PM EST

&lt and &gt don't work.

[ Parent ]
Thanks matey! (none / 0) (#636)
by mr strange on Fri Dec 23, 2005 at 06:24:30 AM EST

omniEvents is a high availability messaging service for CORBA.

intrigued by your idea that fascism is feminine - livus
[ Parent ]

The author deliberately chose the title, (none / 1) (#626)
by mr strange on Sun Sep 25, 2005 at 01:41:43 PM EST

in order to get a high Google rank. It cames up first when I did a search just now.

To be honest, if that's what it takes to get some people to read this article, then I think it's worth it. I too have re-read the Natalee Holloway thread recently, and there are a LOT of people who've posted their approval of the author's sentiment. Great, if you want to change minds, then first you have to get people's attention.

Are you looking for CORBA training?

intrigued by your idea that fascism is feminine - livus

my favourite (3.00 / 5) (#630)
by the77x42 on Thu Sep 29, 2005 at 04:00:39 AM EST

FIRE YOUR ROTTEN "JOURNALIST" WHO WROTE SUCH AN UGLY ARTICLE

that brings a tear to my eye


"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

Site Owner Information (1.00 / 6) (#633)
by Acidify on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 03:09:34 PM EST

Here is the site owner information if he has not changed it by now.Which he probly have.

Phone:202-276-6774

City - Silver Spring,MD
Street - 8605 Cameron St. Suite 200
Zip - 20910
Email - rusty@kuro5hin.org


webhost - www.voxel.net(if you wanna complain about site and get him shut down)

Go sleep!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (none / 1) (#638)
by Something on Fri Mar 24, 2006 at 10:24:45 PM EST

Don't you people have some life????I guess not.You are just a bunch of morons!!!!!!Go to sleep,or eat, and get fat like you usualy do!Fat asses!!BTW,I'm sick and tired of this whole Natalle story too!Millions of people die every day in this country,but who cares about them when there is Natalee to talk about....Go to sleep,and SHUT A F**K UP!!!BTW:If you are not happy with this website,stop comming here!!!And remember to go to sleep!!(what a bunch of ignorants)........

[ Parent ]
God Bless Natalee and her family (none / 1) (#639)
by sacowan on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:47:20 PM EST

I am a student at the University of Alabama and am personally acquainted with many of Natalee's close friends who were with her throughout the entire duration of the Aruba trip. To write such an article is not only offensive and hurtful, but completely ignorant and immature. I do not know you personally ( or ever care to make your aquaintance,)but from what I can tell, you are a truly sad and lost individual. You are lacking one of the most important qualities a person can display which is compassion. I completely understand your arguments against the case and would like to go ahead a point out that I am in no way, shape, or form ignorant. However, I feel that this story has nothing at all to do with intelligence, it is a matter of the human heart over the human head. Although I do not know your history I would assume that you have never lost a loved one. I fear the day when you must face a tragedy, because I do not feel that you have the strength for it. I admire Natalee's family and friends for their strength, hope, and faith and pray that they will never be subjected to the extreme hate which you have displayed in your article.I do not by any means hate you because I am not the kind of person who bases my life around negativity, but I do pity you and hope that some day you will learn to love and respect your fellow man. I am terribly sorry that you have such strong resentment towards Natalee and her family, but I suppose this proves there is true evil in the world. I beg of you not think of Natalee's case as political, but rather to think of Natalee as a person who had feelings and people who loved her. Pull yourself out of your "intellectual" rant and learn to feel for others. I am embarassed that I actually took time out of my day to read this ridiculous piece of journalism. After reading this article, I began to wonder how you personally would handle a tragedy of this degree. That is of course if you have anyone that you remotely care about. I am not asking for you to change your opinions, I am merely asking that you respect the feelings of those hurt by this terrible event and honor the life of an innocent young girl whose whereabouts are unknown, because Natalee's friends and family are the kind of people who would respect your feelings if something of this nature were to happen to you.

Compassion is for weenies. (none / 0) (#640)
by shm on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 08:58:18 PM EST

And commies. Don't ask me why, it just feels right. Will all my heart and none of my head.

[ Parent ]
right is right qrong is wrong (none / 1) (#641)
by egonchampo on Wed May 31, 2006 at 10:52:42 AM EST

as far as the news is concerned they sure dont treat all missing persons equal. who can exsplain this and why.. the truth is no one can really say  why white girls with blonde hair and blue eyes gets more coverage then all other missing people besides the fact that it seems like they get more ratings from it ...isnt that why most tv chanels do things or why the superbowl gets the highest paid commercials then any other time or day its all about RATINGS.. but my question to you whoever made this article  in what way is this natalees fault that she has got all this attention and air time i feel like the name of this article takes away the point your tring to make cause natalee is the victum here ..now however the U.S.A has responded to this case news wise and attention wise is in no way natalees fault and that poor young girl has been through enough and dosent need you guys blaming her for why she gets more publicity then other missing people i understood the point you were tring to make but i think you did a poor job in making it..im sure my opinion dosent mean much to you and im sure my grammer isnt the best either but like just like you said (i dont care) neither do i...and i think you need to make another part to this story making it clear that natalee is the victum here and not at fault for what has taken place after the fact of her becoming missing

Chopped into timy peices: the "Fuck Natalee Holloway" hate mail | 640 comments (607 topical, 33 editorial, 3 hidden)
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