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BREAKING NEWS - Welcome to K5, the pay site

By sausalito in Meta
Sat Sep 08, 2007 at 10:13:21 PM EST
Tags: meta, k5, yes another meta, pontificating nullo (all tags)

Reposted in the queue as it's impossible or at least very complicated to move it as I asked (although the post where aphrael said such thing disappeared so perhaps this is not the case after all - another minor K5 mystery).

The original discussion can be found here (read it as there are some clarifications by rusty). All right, here is the (adapted) diary.

Rusty posted a comment in the diary entitled "Would you pay 10USD for K5 Life Membership?" saying that K5 will become a pay site once new user registrations will be reactivated:

"I was thinking $5.00 (none / 0) (#18) by rusty on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 04:42:15 PM CET

But it would actually be charged. That plus a hash of the identifying CC info so you only get one account ever, and I think we'd either shrivel up to nothing and die, or solve the spamming and crapflooding issues.

Funny that someone else is thinking about this right now. It'll probably happen before I turn new signups back on."

This of course begs the question: HIBT? If so I'll bite (see some considerations under the fold).

I don't know if K5 will die or be born again as a result of the introduction of pay membership. Certainly, it would change a lot above and beyond the obvious fall in crapflooding and vandalism.

Chiefly, given that there is money at stake (no matter how small an amount we're talking about) I'd expect a little more accountability and written rules re: anonymization offences.

Next, I'd think the "one strike and you're out" (a.k.a. one account ever policy) is a little too harsh and against the spirit of the site as we know it. Perhaps even ineffective.

  1. Harsh: people can make mistakes. It's not like we have never seen someone posting while drunk. An anonymization can also be the result of momentary insanity (e.g. Scott Lockwood  III getting nulled for threatening people every once in a while, then reverting to his normal - good or bad you judge - type of posting). A solution allowing one a little more leeway re: nulling could be a doubling of the fee, so that after four or five anonymizations you'd have to fork out a significant amount of money.

  2. Against the spirit of the site. This would eliminate dupes. I've always been against dupes, so nothing changes for me. But I seem to recall that rusty in the past sanctioned the use of dupes (as long as not voting - can not find the link, it's going to be from a long time ago, possible hallucination).

  3. Ineffective. Then there is one issue I had not thought when I wrote the original crapfl....I mean diary. One can buy one of those donation cards mentioned by Stick Apart and keep posting with that. Those are basically anonymous, I think (correct me if wrong). I guess you could set up the system not to accept this type of cards, but I for example use these things to do all my internet purchases. How does SA deals with those cards?



Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure


o I agree - here's my 5USD 8%
o I'll think about it 21%
o No way. You'll have to pry the 5USD from my cold dead hands. 65%
o Wipo 4%

Votes: 47
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o here
o "Would you pay 10USD for K5 Life Membership?"
o I was thinking $5.00 (none / 0) (#18) by rusty on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 04:42:15 PM CET
o Stick Apart
o Also by sausalito

Display: Sort:
BREAKING NEWS - Welcome to K5, the pay site | 160 comments (154 topical, 6 editorial, 2 hidden)
Top 2 questions (3.00 / 2) (#1)
by thekubrix on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 01:22:31 PM EST

Will current users be grandfathered in?

What benefit is there to pay?

plenty of benefits to a paid site (3.00 / 2) (#3)
by blackbart on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 01:31:58 PM EST

for rusty that is!

"I use this dupe for modbombing and impersonating a highly paid government worker"
- army of phred
[ Parent ]

Fuck gramps (3.00 / 2) (#5)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 01:34:14 PM EST

I would also like to hear if there are any benefits to paying. I would pay just so I can continue to own all ya'll. But I'm sure K5 would die (that should be trademarked) if BAM we have $5 for signing up, and it's just a cleaned up version of K5.

Hell, I'd pay for it to be just as unclean as it is now. Neutered K5 would kill K5. Even the crapflooders don't bother me, although I can see how they can be an issue from the K5 management POV.

It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.

[ Parent ]
good luck on that (none / 1) (#8)
by thekubrix on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 01:40:15 PM EST

According to Rusty "Adam Smith" Foster, there will be no benefits. Apparently the powerful k5 appeal alone should be sufficient for you to pay....

[ Parent ]
Works for me (none / 1) (#9)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 01:44:10 PM EST

I'll start a "69,156 MMM fans and counting" ticker.

It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.

[ Parent ]
If by "own" (3.00 / 4) (#40)
by Blond Treehorn Thug on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 12:17:39 AM EST

you mean "generate well-deserved pity from", then IAWTP

I am amused by the simplicity of this game. Bring me your finest meats and cheeses.
[ Parent ]
Monocle polish isn't cheap! (nt) (none / 1) (#76)
by dissonant on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 06:33:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Rehashing my comments in earlier incarnations (3.00 / 2) (#2)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 01:31:22 PM EST

of the story:

  • The payment system needs to be anonymous. K5 doesn't need to know my name or my CC info to get paid, as there are numerous vendors which offer such authentication. The reason for the anonymity is that K5 has been hacked before, and this happened even when there was no financial interests at play.
  • The system can't enable k5 management (lulz) to create a market for new accounts. Such market could be created, for example, by requiring anonyminated users to be buy a new account, or by paying to get their warning status cleared.

It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.

IAWTP (none / 1) (#4)
by thekubrix on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 01:33:18 PM EST

If I were to pay (lol), the LAST thing I would do would be to use my personal credit card on this site, given its track record. At the very least I would use something like a Visa gift card which has no personal information attached. How would those types of cards be handled?

[ Parent ]
That would destroy K5. I think we all know it. (3.00 / 4) (#6)
by Hiphopopotamus on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 01:35:09 PM EST

This place would become the boring, dry, intellectual-light place that Husi is. And they do it for free.

I'm In LOVE!

Hashing system to prevent dupes, WHY?? (3.00 / 2) (#7)
by thekubrix on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 01:36:19 PM EST

You do realize that the VERY FEW people that are so hell bent on crapflooding that they would spend money on such a venture simply generates revenue FOR YOU?

If you were to put a true clamp down on such a thing, it would imped on everyone's private information, and what for? Because you don't want to equate the incoming money from crapflooders vs the little effort it takes for you to ban them???

Absofuckinglutely! (3.00 / 2) (#23)
by thugsonfilm on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 06:09:29 PM EST

This is a lame response to administrative failure.

So what if someone decided to pony up $10 (or some 'credit' therein) and decided to push the limits of 'flooding'? Since there is no definition of what is not allowed here, it's just adds a layer of cc numbers to what then becomes again administrative incompetence. What if the $10 cc then isn't docked when people crapflood or advertise?

What is an 'advert' anyway? Lots of people (e.g. Michael Crawford) shameless promote their websites, music or vaporware, etc.

rpresser accused me of 'spamming' for providing a youtube link to a video. 'Spamming' is prohibited isn't it? If rpresser was an admin I'd have lost my ducats.

The "Spam is prohibited" warning points to this:

"2. To cause a newsgroup to be flooded with irrelevant or inappropriate messages. You can spam a newsgroup with as little as one well- (or ill-) planned message (e.g. asking "What do you think of abortion?" on soc.women). This is often done with cross-posting (e.g. any message which is cross-posted to alt.rush-limbaugh and alt.politics.homosexuality will almost inevitably spam both groups). This overlaps with troll behavior; the latter more specific term has become more common." http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/S/spam.html

Well, a)this isn't a newsgroup, b)it has no 'relevant topics' or 'appropriate messages' since k5 has no theme other than 'technology and culture from the trenchs' and has story categories that would basically encompass anything and everything. The diary is deliberately "themeless" so,definitionally it could not be 'spammed'.

The one clear rule is that you aren't to post over three diaries in one day. That, at least, is unambiguous.

K5 needs to get some basic rules, and competent administration. That's all.


[ Parent ]

I was suspicious (3.00 / 2) (#66)
by rpresser on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 03:14:24 PM EST

You posted "here is my video response" comments to about nine different comments that I saw. I didn't check that they were all different; in fact I didn't look at any of them at first.  I thought it possible you were linkspamming to try to raise interest in a particular video that you had posted to youtube.

In any event, I first encountered the use of the term "spam" in the late eighties, in the equivalent of a chat room at college. What we called "spamming" then was the gratuitous repetition of meaningless or uninformative content.  There doesn't have to be a profit motive or any other motive at all.  Spam is the crowding out of signal by noise.
"In terms of both hyperbolic overreaching and eventual wrongness, the Permanent [Republican] Majority has set a new, and truly difficult to beat, standard." --rusty
[ Parent ]

Yes, each one of my (3.00 / 3) (#67)
by thugsonfilm on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 03:23:49 PM EST

video responses was taylored to the particular comment in question. Often to some humorous effect (at least on me).

Most of them were spot on, although a few were surreal or simply absurdist (e.g. to an ETST comment I posted a video of a woman saying "Fruit Loops, enlarged to show texture").

Posting youtube links on k5 is super common, no?

But my point stands, what if you thought I was spamming, you had my cc# and you took my $5-$10. I would be left with an administrative complaint as to the merits of the judgement.

Which is my point: this is an administrative problem and credit cards are a non-administrative solution.

[ Parent ]

Yeah, that would be very draconian. \\ (3.00 / 2) (#88)
by rpresser on Sat Sep 08, 2007 at 03:09:58 PM EST

"In terms of both hyperbolic overreaching and eventual wrongness, the Permanent [Republican] Majority has set a new, and truly difficult to beat, standard." --rusty
[ Parent ]
But... (3.00 / 3) (#73)
by rusty on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 05:03:13 PM EST

...rpresser isn't an admin. I saw your youtube replies, I watched a lot of them, basically i c wut u did thar. Just because someone accused you of spamming doesn't mean anyone with the ability to give you the boot thought so. And (as people love to point out, I flatter myself) we do a pretty good job kicking out people who need it and not those who don't. The main problem is the tiny number of retards who just respawn over and over and over doing the same crap. The past few weeks with no new users have proven that to me beyond a shadow of a doubt. The site has been a lot more lively, a lot more enjoyable, and bannings have gone from 10 a day to 0.1 a day.

So basically, I think you're wrong. I think we have clear enough rules and competent enough administration. What we don't have is any persistent way to enforce the rules. I honestly, at this point, think we'd be better off with no more new accounts ever than going back to fully open free signups. But that's not really plausible in the long run. So I think assessing a nominal gate fee is a good compromise.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Yes I have noticed the tone of things (none / 0) (#94)
by thugsonfilm on Sat Sep 08, 2007 at 09:29:42 PM EST

changing lately. But that is because of good administration not the implementation of any sign-up fees. You've been posting, you've been reading, and you've been kicking ass that needs to be kicked (not mine, even though I got two warnings!).

Keep up the good adminning and you don't need any cash barrier. You are proving my point, not yours.

[ Parent ]

Been doing it all along (none / 1) (#130)
by rusty on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 10:34:12 AM EST

That's the thing. You think we haven't been, but we have. On the other hand, I have done virtually no policing since shutting off new accounts (other than warning you a couple times, sparky), which is a pretty strong argument in favor of my plan.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
It is a strong argument in favor of not allowing (none / 0) (#136)
by thugsonfilm on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 12:47:03 PM EST

unlimited free sign-ups, but not any sort of proof of the value of charging $5 to get in.

You've starting reading/replying, and you've actually given all accounts new features (er old features you tried to sell). Great!

The new account button gets a 404 - so how does this prove the value of selling $5 accounts (on credit)?

It only proves that if you kick out the spoilers the noise level goes down. Which should have been happening the whole time.

[ Parent ]

We'll see (none / 1) (#138)
by rusty on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 01:17:46 PM EST

I do see all of your points. What I don't know is, is your gut right or is mine? Mine says this will help. Your says it won't. So let's find out.

(Also, we have been kicking out the spoilers the whole time. There is no way to keep them out.)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Pay for content on the 'Net (2.75 / 4) (#10)
by Corwin06 on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 01:48:22 PM EST

If I have to pay, I'll have to leave, because I don't even have any sort of bank account. Or can I send $ in an envelope? Now let's talk about security...

Not that I don't want, it's that I can't.

Maybe no one cares. But I have read many really interesting things here on k5, and I keep coming because I hope to see more of them...

There are other ways to stop crapflooding, too. Like, accept only $SMALL_NUMBER of diary posts per user and of dupes, identify users by IP (because renewing an IP takes way too much time to do it, say, a thousand times an hour), and by cookie (yeah, right) and by browser (yeah, right) and if you have enough such methods, it's that there are so many of them implemented that at least you can't BURY the site under a crap flood.

... how comes the forms are not checked server-side to strip javascript and such, too? Strip irregular characters from the posts and voilà, all XSS blocked. (How can you inject code using no >< characters, pray tell? Huhuhu.)

"and you sir, in an argument in a thread with a troll in a story no one is reading in a backwater website, you're a fucking genius
You'd never have to pay to read (3.00 / 3) (#12)
by rusty on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 02:11:26 PM EST

And since here you are posting, you'd be grandfathered in anyway.

If there are more people like you out there who only keep their money in a sock under the mattress, and therefore can't do paypal, or CC, or mail a money order... well. I don't know what to tell those people. Join us in here the world? It's not that bad? I don't think it would be a huge problem, in any case.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Sooo..... (3.00 / 3) (#13)
by thekubrix on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 02:21:22 PM EST

If current users are grandfathered in, do they still have to provide personal information (i.e. CC#, real name, etc)??

[ Parent ]
No (3.00 / 2) (#14)
by rusty on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 02:26:50 PM EST

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
how about (3.00 / 2) (#16)
by trane on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 03:17:35 PM EST

make a kill list so that users you don't want to see will be filtered from your individual viewing experience? seems like it wouldn't be any more work than doing the pay shit.

[ Parent ]
Well, (3.00 / 4) (#35)
by trhurler on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 08:38:34 PM EST

given that you already raised $70k or so from existing users and rewarded them by nearly abandoning k5 in favor of other newer pursuits, do you not see why a lot of people might not be happy about this? I mean, sure, I already have my account, and I see the actual point of this being more about limiting endless dupes than raising cash, but still it puts a foul taste in the mouth given the past - in general I might think you're a good guy, but I would never, EVER give you my money again because you screwed me over last time.

'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
I suppose (3.00 / 2) (#63)
by rusty on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 03:04:20 PM EST

But of course those of you who were around (way back) then (and still don't realize how much less than $70,000 it was, and still haven't gotten over it) won't need to give me anything.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Well (3.00 / 2) (#82)
by trhurler on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 09:17:13 PM EST

Regardless of how much it actually was, I have a good idea how much I paid. I was happy for a good part of it to be chalked up to "work already performed," being as the site is pretty damned cool. But I didn't expect you to immediately run off and basically disappear for months and months immediately after I paid for a subscription either, and I'm pretty sure that was a reasonable expectation on my part.

As for the rest, yes, you're right. I just think there are a lot of people who will think twice about paying money for accounts here.

'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
I would be willing to pay (none / 1) (#74)
by Troll Hard on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 06:15:43 PM EST

if I can get my "Orion Blastar" account un-anonymized and I am allowed to use that account as my "single account".

Maybe $10 or something because I am super broke right now and that is all I can afford.

What would the monthly and yearly fees be?

I can imagine a Kuro5hin without the dupe hordes, then there would be no need for me to create my own dupes to out dupe the dupe hordes that zero-bomb me.

If not I'll keep my grandfathered Troll Hard account, and keep using Kuro5hin for free and let the zero bombers keep bombing me until they are anonymized and run out of dupe accounts and have to pay for new accounts.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it! Mind over Matter Fringe Science for the win!
[ Parent ]

Rusty it is very simple (none / 1) (#75)
by Troll Hard on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 06:20:34 PM EST

#1 Buy a $20 Discover or Master Card "gift card" at a retail store.

#2 Give CC# to Kuro5hin, buy $20 worth of access.

#3 Throw away CC, and be anonymous on Kuro5hin, who has a gift card CC# with no link to your real info.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it! Mind over Matter Fringe Science for the win!
[ Parent ]

How recent would the posting history have to be? (none / 1) (#98)
by Scrymarch on Sat Sep 08, 2007 at 11:52:31 PM EST

I don't think I've posted for months, are you planning to grandfather everyone who's posted in the last year, month, all time?

The pay-to-pollute idea behind this sort of crapflood management appeals to me, though I can see trhurler's point.

Also, would you turn on subscriber features for everyone? Eg the reply tracking? Since the main historical reason for leaving them off was embarrassment about them paying for what other people get for free.

[ Parent ]

Yes, and yes (3.00 / 2) (#128)
by rusty on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 10:30:29 AM EST

I have no posting history requirement in mind -- everyone who's in now is in. And yes, I will turn on the subscriber features for everyone, and probably lose that subscription option entirely. Just keep the cheaper no-ads subscription option.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Struth, you've turned it on already (none / 0) (#153)
by Scrymarch on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 10:17:45 AM EST

I could start to like this punctuated equilibrium approach to upgrades ...

[ Parent ]
We are the Giant Panda of websites (none / 1) (#154)
by rusty on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 10:23:09 AM EST

Largely irrelevant, and evolving just barely fast enough to keep ahead of total extinction.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Western Union {nt} (none / 1) (#18)
by sausalito on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 03:45:06 PM EST


GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

Dixie Chicks /nt (none / 1) (#22)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 05:28:39 PM EST

It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.

[ Parent ]
Hi there (none / 0) (#11)
by Stick Apart on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 02:09:19 PM EST

"...One can buy one of those donation cards mentioned by Del Griffith and keep posting with that. Those are basically anonymous, I think (correct me if wrong). I guess you could set up the system not to accept this type of cards, but I for example use these things to do all my internet purchases. How does SA deals with those cards?"

> "I think it could easily be around 200 million people dead because of gun control." - V


Fixed {nt} (none / 1) (#19)
by sausalito on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 03:56:55 PM EST


GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

Ah, fuck (3.00 / 2) (#15)
by Sgt York on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 02:28:24 PM EST

And here I am, getting ready to start a big experiment. Been doing centrifuge runs and affinity columns all day, perfect for K5 observation, and now that I have to buckle down at the bench, the fireworks start.


There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.

The problem (2.75 / 4) (#17)
by Cro Magnon on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 03:43:31 PM EST

is that K5 is barely worth it for free! Why would anyone actually PAY for this site?
Information wants to be beer.
But why is it barely worth it for free? (3.00 / 2) (#51)
by harrystottle on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 11:13:47 AM EST

Because it has been so heavily abused to date. The question is would making it a pay site bring an end to that abuse, or just an end to new membership?

Mostly harmless
[ Parent ]
The problem isn't trolls & crapflooders (3.00 / 2) (#53)
by Cro Magnon on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 12:25:56 PM EST

The problem is that there is nobody left BUT trolls and crapflooders. In a community with 1,000 active people, 12 trolls isn't a problem. In a community with 20 active people, 12 trolls will kill it! And the trolls are already here.
Information wants to be beer.
[ Parent ]
Sounds like a bad idea (3.00 / 9) (#20)
by QuantumFoam on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 04:07:15 PM EST

Apart from the occasional bee-related article, nothing with merit ever gets posted to K5. If you take away all the trolls and crapflooders, you have nothing.

- Barack Obama: Because it will work this time. Honest!

NO PROBLEM I PAY FOR YOU ALL! (2.00 / 2) (#21)
by Psychopath on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 05:27:02 PM EST

my visa credit card details follow:
# 0008989185422836
security code: 854
name: jonathan cormick

you're welcome!!
The only antidote to mental suffering is physical pain. -- Karl Marx

Hey! That's mine! $ (none / 1) (#60)
by jandev on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 02:32:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]

SA deals with those cards (2.33 / 3) (#24)
by Phssthpok on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 06:40:32 PM EST

by laughing all the way to the bank.

affective flattening has caused me to kill 11,357 people

I'd be strongly in favor of this if... (3.00 / 8) (#25)
by localroger on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 06:40:48 PM EST

...it was 2004 and we had not already lost a lot of the users who were providing the best content. The model works at Metafilter, and I happily paid the fee there myself even though I only participate occasionally.

The problem is you have to hit people up for the bucks when there is enough interesting stuff going on that they are willing to cough it up to participate. Otherwise, it runs off the newcomers you're hoping for who will bring in fresh content.

One possible way to end-run this would be to send in the shills -- hire or otherwise solicit people to create some decent articles and drop comments calculated to drive discussions. (Ironically enough, this is how Adequacy worked, and it let them schedule a more regular flow of FP stories than the K5 feast-or-famine model.)

Once traffic is up and people are feeling obliged to hit [reply to this] then you could introduce the charge to auto-regulate the crapflooding. But as things stand I think it would just dry things up.

alexboko: I think, how do animals view our behavior?
Sgt York: Opening

There could be prizes and similar stuff... (3.00 / 2) (#27)
by sausalito on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 06:58:25 PM EST

...like the best article of the month/quarter receives its membership back or more.

It's not like rusty is looking for more money, or at least that's what I think. He already makes enough from the sponsors (and the bandwidth is provided for free - that's what wikipedia says).

As a matter of fact, I think that this is the major weakness of K5 and similar sites. If you spend time to create a good article, why should you post it in here rather than in your personal blog (and bring it to the attention of people through the various networking sites like delicious, digg, technorati etc).

If K5 had a modest pool of money to allocate to writers, that might balance the incentives.

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

yeah right (3.00 / 2) (#29)
by Tex two point oh on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 07:16:09 PM EST

of course he's looking for more money. The google paycheck is the only reason rusty keeps this site going. You think it's because he likes this site??? For fuck's sake he never uses the site and he complains like crazy when he has to lift a finger to do anything with it. Let's face facts, if it weren't for getting paid, rusty would have abandoned K5 long ago like has every other moderator buddy he appointed.

Rusty figures the $5 new user fee could be another nice stream of income and he'd have to do even less work on the site (double bonus). Fact is, I'd be surprised if anyone actually paid it. The site's software is so ugly and outdated that I've been on several bit torrent tracker sites with more sophisticated, much nicer looking, and much more active discussion forums. (Uknova to name just one)

Even if rusty's idea did work and trolling/crapflooding stopped, new users signed up, and contributed positive content (the supposed dream scenario) the new paying customers would get sick of the fact that no work is ever going to be done on the site.

There are just too many other discussion forums out there run by people who give a fuck and still care about doing a good job. The only thing that keeps K5 going anymore is the entropic silliness of the diary section. Trying to recruit new users at this point would be a herculean challenge much less paying ones.

[ Parent ]

It's not a "nice stream" (3.00 / 2) (#31)
by sausalito on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 07:35:06 PM EST

It would be a one-off for each new sign-up (as existing ones are going to be grandfathered).

It's going to be 100USD a month max. He probably does ten times as much from direct and indirect (Google and the evil BlogAds)

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

$100/mo IS a stream dumbass (2.33 / 3) (#32)
by Tex two point oh on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 07:42:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]
listen beancounter I didn't object to its... (3.00 / 2) (#33)
by sausalito on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 07:46:03 PM EST

recurrent nature, rather to its significance (i.e. your characterisation as "nice").

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

"entropic silliness (none / 0) (#95)
by thugsonfilm on Sat Sep 08, 2007 at 10:18:17 PM EST

of the diary section."

I'll have to ask CTS what that means. Sounds kinda cool.

[ Parent ]

About the stream of income thing (none / 1) (#131)
by rusty on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 10:36:00 AM EST

$5.00 per account will probably lose me money, overall. I've been thinking about dropping my merchant account, since most months it costs more than it brings in. $5.00 CC transactions are worth basically nothing.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Another thought (none / 1) (#36)
by localroger on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 09:15:26 PM EST

This would have to be gamed out carefully, but it might be worthwhile to let people commet for free under their own articles only, if their articles are accepted. I think this would require non-member articles to be approved by moderators and possibly other controls, but then you could at least cheaply participate in your own creation if you want to donate it to the site. K5 still has enough pagerank that that might be attractive to someone. Then, if the site justifies itself (hey, don't laugh) then you plonk the $5 to comment on everyone else's masterpieces.

alexboko: I think, how do animals view our behavior?
Sgt York: Opening
[ Parent ]
heh (none / 1) (#37)
by thekubrix on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 09:49:30 PM EST

Clearly you're not paying attention.

Rusty's intention isn't to make money or improve this site. It's simply a matter of giving him less work/responsibility.

[ Parent ]

This is exactly the opposite of what rusty (3.00 / 2) (#44)
by sausalito on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 07:55:30 AM EST

has in mind. His idea is to avoid crapfloops and the rest with paid membership. So one would need to pay to post comments AND to submit articles.

No talks from him re: moderators.

I still believe that having a distributed system of site minders (what I called moderators in my "story") would be better as it would maintain the site open to contributions. Buy hey, it's not like I own this place.

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

The point isn't making money (3.00 / 3) (#54)
by localroger on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 12:55:38 PM EST

The point is to get people in over the transom without letting the crapflooders in too.

alexboko: I think, how do animals view our behavior?
Sgt York: Opening
[ Parent ]
How about making new users submit a certain (none / 0) (#97)
by thugsonfilm on Sat Sep 08, 2007 at 10:42:03 PM EST

number of diaries before they can comment?

Or submit a certain number of stories before they can diary?

The very mechanisms of k5 could be used to screen new users. If you ain't good enough you don't get in.

Or you could require a certain number of story submissions to keep your account.

Bogus pasta would obviously get you kicked.

No money needed at all.

[ Parent ]

Idea seems to be rejected (none / 1) (#99)
by localroger on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 12:02:16 AM EST

I once wrote an actual story about robust mechanisms for this kind of thing. It was pretty much laughed at and ignored, althogh all of your suggestions are similar.

alexboko: I think, how do animals view our behavior?
Sgt York: Opening
[ Parent ]
I have no doubt (none / 0) (#108)
by thugsonfilm on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 10:19:08 AM EST

but my point is that Rusty is like "We have no choice, there is no other way" and my point is that there is another way to throttle bullshit new user accounts without taking ppls money.

Simply force new users to prove that they are willing to be 'valid users' before they get an account that is fully enabled. Yahoo! answers kinda does this with their 'level' system which progressively removes throttles from accounts. But they also have moderators who actually moderate crap and a list of rules they enforce.

That's all.

[ Parent ]

Why not just (none / 0) (#118)
by TDS on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 03:53:22 PM EST

switch "trusted user" status back on but make qualifying via request posted to a given thread? "I've met the criteria, pls move me up to TU". TU wasn't a bad idea, the problem with it was it was automated and so easy to get round.

Its a standard feature on the forum software everyone uses (not sure what its called) and it seems to work.

And when we die, we will die with our hands unbound. This is why we fight.
[ Parent ]

That's what we have now (3.00 / 2) (#129)
by rusty on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 10:31:36 AM EST

Essentially. You can screen all you like, but what you're talking about eventually comes down to "Hey, someone else should be policing this site for me 24/7 and kicking out people who need to be kicked out." This is the problem. No one, in the long run, is going to do that. I'm sick of doing it, all the other admins are sick of doing it. The very fact that you think we haven't been doing it means we must have been doing a pretty good job. But it doesn't work anymore. The knowledge that every time I look at K5 I'll have to track down some jerk and his 25 dupes and untangle some stupid modbombing campaign has done a lot to make me not even want to look here, let alone participate. The knowledge that every time I comment or post a diary there will be a new flurry of crap from the same old assholes, well it tends to discourage participation. What the hell do I do this for if I can't even join in?

I do appreciate your points, and I see where you're coming from. But I have thought about this for a long time, and kept it open as long as possible. I don't see anything else working, and I'd like to give this a try. What the hell. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

oh this is a nice new twist rusty (none / 1) (#133)
by Tex two point oh on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 11:24:58 AM EST

The knowledge that every time I look at K5 I'll have to track down some jerk and his 25 dupes and untangle some stupid modbombing campaign has done a lot to make me not even want to look here, let alone participate. The knowledge that every time I comment or post a diary there will be a new flurry of crap from the same old assholes, well it tends to discourage participation. What the hell do I do this for if I can't even join in?

Come on rusty, are you really this disingenuous or have you started to actually believe your own crap excuses? I suppose when the site was down for days/weeks at a time in 2003 it made you such a sad boy inside that you didn't even want to look at the site anymore. I suppose when people donated thousands of dollars to the CMF it made you so sad inside that you didn't ever want to do any work on it. And nevermind that there are thousands of other sites out there that let people submit content for free and have methods of dealing with it. Maybe the admins one those sites don't have such sensitive emotions!

Yep, rusty everytime you anonymize a crapflooder it's just like you're carrying some cross up a hill or something.

[ Parent ]

it's not just one. (none / 1) (#144)
by aphrael on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 02:46:32 PM EST

it's that, sometimes for weeks, every time any admin logs into k5, there's a mess which needs to be cleaned up.

parents get frustrated when their kids are always leaving messes around, but their solution is to get the kids to stop leaving the mess. we don't have that solution; attempts to get people to stop crapflooding have simply failed.

speaking for myself, this means that when I come here, instead of talking --- which is what I want to do --- I spend my time cleaning up after people who don't contribute anything, all the while being blasted by other people for not doing enough.

that gets wearing after a while.

[ Parent ]

The truth about it is (none / 0) (#156)
by Troll Hard on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 09:24:33 PM EST

that you simply cannot control what other people do on Kuro5hin. All you can do is try to clean up the messes they make.

The more you try to tighten control over them, they are like water in your hand and squeeze out of the gaps of your clenched fist.

People cannot change and cannot reform, unless they actually want to change and reform. That is what psychology teaches us, as well as our prison system full of repeat offenders.

I am actually sorry for the messes I made, and I am trying to change and trying to reform. I am doing what I can to avoid being annoying, and I have to admit that I am one of the most (if not the most) annoying user on Kuro5hin. I wasn't always that way, you know. I used to be a fully functional non-annoying human being, who only sought out friendships and wanted to write stories and joined Kuro5hin after being invited from Slashdot. Then the abuse from other users started. I had reported it, but nothing was done about it. I was called awful names, my intelligence was insulted. I tried to ignore it. Every diary I wrote and every comment I made got nasty replies. Every story I tried to write got voted down by dupe accounts. I was powerless. Things weren't going so well for me on my job either and I faced stress on the job, in real life, and on the Internet. I somehow developed schizo affective disorder and became my alter ego of Orion Blastar, who isn't the real me, just a character I made up in 1985 to play as a Space Pirate for the Traveller role playing game in the far future. I admit I went insane, Orion took over, I trolled back, I trolled again, in fact I trolled hard. Then I became really annoying, and I apologize for that if it caused you any problems or stresses. I even created my own dupes to fight the dupes that zero bombed me and voted down my stories, because I had tried becoming a vigilante and take out what I thought where the bad guys. But I guess I was wrong to do that, and I am sorry and I apologize for being so annoying.

I guess I just never figured what you admins go through. I mean the admins hardly ever talk to me, there were never any warnings or comments to my diaries or stories to tell me what actually I was doing wrong. In fact, I wasn't even sure you admins still existed except for Rusty until I just read your post here.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it! Mind over Matter Fringe Science for the win!
[ Parent ]

Well as far as I can tell (none / 0) (#137)
by thugsonfilm on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 01:05:32 PM EST

the intent of the ankle biters has been to demoralize you and reduce your participation. So it sounds like it worked.

I am not arguing for an 'open' site: hell close it up tight as virgin's ass. But what I am saying is that a $5 entry fee doesn't screen assholes: it only screens people who are willing to put up cash. Assholes have cash. Assholes have fake credit card numbers.

You have a gate with a big gaping hole in it. Even if you force paypal or some other vehicle to reduce the problem of fraud, you have simply stalled the problem, which still forces you to think about monitoring even still.

No quality site on the net, afaik, is 'self-monitored' or 'self-policed' unless its a very small group of people who know each other well and there are other (e.g. professional/academic) barriers to entry. Like the very early Internet.

So what if you have a $5 entry fee and people still abuse the site? What is your policy for not letting them stay? I haven't seen any clarification of your "acceptable use" or TOS which would make this issue go away.

I am not the only one to raise this issue. Why would someone want to spend $5 to be on a site run like an IRC channel where you can be tolerated one day, and kicked the next?

[ Parent ]

That's it, right there. (none / 0) (#143)
by aphrael on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 02:43:24 PM EST

The knowledge that every time I look at K5 I'll have to track down some jerk and his 25 dupes and untangle some stupid modbombing campaign has done a lot to make me not even want to look here, let alone participate.



For a long time, I was annoyed at you about this. After I'd been an admin for a year or so, I wasn't any more, because I felt it too.

[ Parent ]

That is an important point (3.00 / 3) (#62)
by rusty on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 02:59:49 PM EST

This isn't about getting $5.00, it's about limiting access. If I had a way to limit access comparably strictly without charging anything, I would. But I don't, so we're pretty much left with this.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
So how long did you think about this? (none / 1) (#96)
by thugsonfilm on Sat Sep 08, 2007 at 10:38:44 PM EST

How many other options did you explore?

Did you solicit any suggestions in your diary, or via a story? If so, where is it. Cuz I missed it.

What other options did you consider but reject?

Just curious.

[ Parent ]

why limit access? (3.00 / 2) (#102)
by nostalgiphile on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 01:13:27 AM EST

To keep the baddies out? If so, isn't this, then, an admin problem and not a money problem?

Srsly, consider getting some new admins who care about teh site and will oversee/cultivate it responsibly.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]

How about other options (none / 0) (#126)
by Zombie Gautama Buddha on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 08:28:14 AM EST

such as a 1 day delay before any account can be used to post? I'm sure this idea has been brought up before -- what was wrong with it?

[ Parent ]
What's wrong with it... (none / 0) (#127)
by rusty on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 10:22:09 AM EST

...is that all it does is shift the crapflood one day later.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Adequacy had committed writers and feedback (3.00 / 2) (#52)
by Adam Rightmann on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 12:00:02 PM EST

The writers/editors would commit to writing stories, and then solicit feedback in editor only queues to polish and perfect their articles, as well as discuss ways to reach the target audiences. Only then would an article be released. There were usually a few stories queued up, too, to ensure new daily content.

Fresh content, good writing, constructive criticism and active editorial control, ironic indeed when compared to kuro5hin.

[ Parent ]

And yet (3.00 / 7) (#61)
by rusty on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 02:58:30 PM EST

...here we still are. :-)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
... with a readership decline (none / 1) (#109)
by The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 10:37:08 AM EST

... running on free resources.

Uh, would you like a cookie or something?

I'm a pompous windbag, I take myself far too seriously, and I single-handedly messed up K5 by causing the fiction section to be created. --localroger

[ Parent ]
Yes, but this time (none / 0) (#110)
by imrdkl on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 11:28:56 AM EST

You're going to make us proud. Right?

[ Parent ]
"But then they were committed." (none / 0) (#148)
by ksandstr on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 06:53:07 PM EST

End of story. Ha, ha.

[ Parent ]
WHBT (3.00 / 4) (#26)
by toki on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 06:42:13 PM EST

If anyone seriously thinks that we'd pay for the 'content' on here, they're sorely mistaken.

Or is it just me?

by Tex two point oh on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 07:03:19 PM EST


RUSTYNOMICS (3.00 / 3) (#34)
by thekubrix on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 08:01:42 PM EST


[ Parent ]
Actually it works (3.00 / 2) (#86)
by godix on Sat Sep 08, 2007 at 01:49:36 AM EST

in some cases at least. I recall a bargain bin shampoo raised it's price and ended up selling better because cheap shampoo was perceived as inferior and people would pay for the more expensive stuff instead. I forget what shampoo it was but it's something like Pert where you'd recognize it's name if I could remember it. Doubt this would work for websites though, internet sites value is judged by content and the hype around the site rather than price.

- An egotist is someone who thinks they're almost as good as I am.
[ Parent ]
Yes but presumably (none / 0) (#113)
by thugsonfilm on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 01:06:54 PM EST

Ru5ty's motivation is not sales of his product (access to the diary and story queue) but the exclusiveness of membership (you can now not have to rub shoulders with the hoi polloi).

So even if his 'sales' (users) went down, presumably the quality of those who got through would go up. Since only a fraction of users, I suspect, actually post anything, comment on anything, rate anything, then the logic might work.

I think the logic is ok - restricting user accounts - but the method is lame (money). Make people work for an account by showing they are serious users. Any spammer asshole can pony up $5.

[ Parent ]

5105105105105100/visa (2.00 / 3) (#30)
by ray eckson on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 07:33:51 PM EST

wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
no, that is a mastercard number (none / 1) (#124)
by Phssthpok on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 02:29:07 AM EST


affective flattening has caused me to kill 11,357 people

[ Parent ]
4444333220000000000/visa (none / 1) (#134)
by ray eckson on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 11:35:45 AM EST


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
Question (2.66 / 3) (#38)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 11:54:43 PM EST

How much money do you think rusty makes off the site?  Is K5 his only source of income or does he have a day job?

Is he a house husband who lives off of Ms. Foster?

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour

He's a carpenter, and does scoop consulting (3.00 / 2) (#41)
by MichaelCrawford on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 12:49:59 AM EST

If you look at the typical number of active ads, and realize that the ads only cost ten bucks for ten thousand impressions, which last from a few days to a week, you'll realize that rusty makes very little money from consulting.

A while back he helped set up DailyKos, and I imagine has consulted on some other scoop sites.

Looking for some free songs?

[ Parent ]

Really? (2.50 / 2) (#45)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 08:43:06 AM EST

He's a carpenter?  If he wrote scoop aren't there better ways for him to make money?  

Aren't there people who make more money off of scoop than him?

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour
[ Parent ]

Kos makes a boatload of money (3.00 / 2) (#47)
by MichaelCrawford on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 08:58:14 AM EST

I'm actually one of kuro5hin's top advertisers, although it's been a while since I've run any here.

Submitting an ad at k5 is very simple and inexpensive, entirely self-service - you fill out a form to select one of three ad styles as well as provide its text and the destination URL, as well as how many impressions, with the minimum being ten thousand for front-page ads, and twenty thousand for story ads.

Then you pay via credit card or PayPal, paying ten dollars for a minimum ad placement. Rusty approves ads manually to keep down the goatse.

So, knowing that DailyKos gets a lot of hits, I decided to try placing an ad there. And what I found was a page advising me to contact their ad sales department so one of their salespeople can help me design my campaign.

No doubt a minimum placement there is thousands of dollars. And I'm sure that Kos laughs all the way to the bank whenever republicans get elected, as all the Democratic voters show up at his site to vent their outrage.

And yeah, Rusty is a carpenter. I don't know if he's still getting by that way, but he was swinging a hammer for a living at least a couple years ago.

Looking for some free songs?

[ Parent ]

don't diss carpentry (2.66 / 3) (#85)
by rhiannon on Sat Sep 08, 2007 at 01:29:07 AM EST

I do some woodworking and can make about 50-80 bucks an hour when I feel like working my ass off and getting everything setup properly.

If I find the right person to sell to I've made quite a bit more, usually only a couple hours a month like that though. On the other hand there are the hours spent working for free, but you get that in tech too, staying up to date.

Once I made some end of class gifts for one of those corporate life training seminars, 25 items at $150 each, took me two 6 hour days, minus 200 bucks for an assistant, you do the math.

There is the risk of losing fingers but I've minimized that and pay attention while working.

I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
[ Parent ]

Jesus was a carpenter (none / 1) (#90)
by livus on Sat Sep 08, 2007 at 07:18:38 PM EST

or was it his dad? Anyway, yeah.

HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
I doubt it (2.66 / 3) (#48)
by sausalito on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 09:06:31 AM EST

He went through a rough patch at a certain point in his life and was forced to work as a carpenter (or so the legend says).

Right now I don't think this is the case any longer although I do not feel like googling him. I guess he does work for DailyKos and the few other scoop sites left. Perhaps perl consulting.

Don't forget that he still got a certain name with the technology gurus like Tim O'Reilly and gets invited to their Web 2.0 circlejerkings. I would believe that those connections can get you some plush contracts unless you are totally useless at networking - which might be the case, but it's unlikely.

As for the money from K5, you are very pessimistic. BlogAds and Google probably net him 1000US/m at least - K5 might have lost members but it's Google rank is still very good I believe (correct me if wrong). The direct ads are on top of that. And the bandwidth is offered for free, allegedly, from one of the perma-ads like that hosting company I don't remember the name.

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

I don't know about blogads, but Google AdSense... (none / 1) (#49)
by MichaelCrawford on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 09:17:10 AM EST

... probably earns him very little. The reason is that, as widely observed at webmasterworld, the keyword context sensitivity of AdSense works very poorly on forum and blog websites. The ads are often poorly targeted, and sometimes quite non-sensical, for example I see k5 adsense in foreign languages quite frequently.

It happens that I earn quite a bit myself from AdSense, but only from a single web page whose typical reader likes to click ads like there is no tomorrow. The article is about music downloading; I've tested adsense on many of my other essays, mostly technical ones, and consistently get a very poor clickthru rate.

That's a big part of the reason I'm developing Ogg Frog both as a website and as a Free Software application. AdSense testing there has yielded very promising results.

Looking for some free songs?

[ Parent ]

BlogAds (3.00 / 2) (#50)
by sausalito on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 09:26:05 AM EST

Clicked through a couple of times as I was intrigued by the utter lack of sense of the ads - once there was a guy in a wizard hat, another time a plead from a wife whose nuclear scientist or somesuch husband had been kidnapped (turns out it was an elaborate ruse - a sort of internet treasure hunt with fake pages all over the place providing clues... whatever).

Those ads are crap but I'd expect they pay well, as they have images and occupy quite a lot of real estate.

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

bAdSense? (none / 1) (#84)
by postDigital on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 11:41:56 PM EST


incapable tech ends up dead off target
giving rise to smart causal agents
that go venturing with capital buy-ins
sparking conditions for new technology
which will eliminate illusions of immunity

[ Parent ]
i was just thinking (none / 0) (#106)
by postDigital on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 09:49:51 AM EST

that i may have been much too harsh on Google for the subpar revenue generation from AdSense that many BB, and Blog publishers believe it should generate. This was just dropped off by storks at the cabbage patch or fresh skimmed from what bubbled up in the fermentation tanks...It's certainly fresh-baked, and possibly half-baked.

These sites have one thing in common, they are not based on static content. Most of the software used to generate these sites' content is of the PHP/MySql varieties, K5 is Perl, and although I haven't checked into it, I assume a heavy user of cgi calls. In my experience, the most commonly used CMS's, including blog and BB sites, suck at producing pages containing usable meta information, especially Dublin Core.

CMS Softwares' codebases are often anti-Semantic, and if one desires to have properly targeted content provided from ad-servers on their sites, they should assure that the generated page headers being served-up has been loaded-up with as many meta tags that provide simple and accurate Semantical Web data as can be implemented. Yes, for this purpose, I'd recommend getting back into the reprehensible time-sucking ghoul of a habit; keyword meta tag optimisation.

The expectation that ad-server bots are going to fine comb page content like a search engine spider is unrealistic, and if it did, would be liable to cause bottlenecks in unexpected and undesired places on the WWW. I have already noticed slow page loads directly attributable adservers' slow responses, not the site's main server. Sometimes it has been frustrating enough to contemplate remapping AdServers' IPs in my PCs hosts file to localhost/somethingshort/asFiller.html. The reason I have not done this is more my belief that market forces should be left alone whenever possible, and that websites have a right to be a part of the market, than it is sloth. Also, I don't know about your opinion, but server logs I am privy to have seen a big bandwidth biting uptick in new search spiders by private "vertical" search providers, most which are unlikely to generate any significant new traffic for a website. When time allows for it, I've instituted a new policy response to vertical search bots: Those that come knocking with forged user.agent strings posing as browsers, get IP banned instantly, plus a CIDR range calculated and regexed for. Those that do not follow protocols of spidering politness, and are quick, repeated page requesters, plus those that otherwise break spidering etiquette, I attempt to initiate communication with their corporate creator and overlord. If I do not receive what I feel is a informative and veracious reply, I kick them out via robots.txt, and If I catch either of these two classes dong end-arounds these light blocks, instead of contacting me, I get proactive with CIDR firewall filtering, and simply start dropping those requests externally. I do not think I'd appreciate 2 or 3 or 4 or.?. new bandwidth sucking spiders frequenting these servers because of Ad content services. (Sorry about the drift, it wills not to be severed from me.)

Getting back on target; most CMS codebases now offer metatag/header optimizers as add-ons, but implementing them is much more than a quick back-end plug enabling click to an autonomous forget-me functioning, and instead require both an understanding in head element coding, as well as time spent on every page to generate it.

That's pretty much how this thought process flowed presently.

[ Parent ]
You see ads? (n/t) (none / 0) (#159)
by joecool12321 on Mon Sep 24, 2007 at 04:11:59 AM EST

[ Parent ]
increase price drives up demand? (2.00 / 3) (#39)
by balsamic vinigga on Thu Sep 06, 2007 at 11:56:48 PM EST

we'll be able to add "defying the laws of basic economics" to k5's impressive resume.

Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
meh (none / 1) (#55)
by binford2k on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 01:38:36 PM EST

as any econ prof will tell you, this happens quite often.

[ Parent ]
c.f. iPod (n/t) (none / 0) (#158)
by joecool12321 on Mon Sep 24, 2007 at 04:06:16 AM EST

[ Parent ]
an open question to rusty (3.00 / 2) (#42)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 01:49:56 AM EST

if i paid $5 would you still ban me for 3-4 diaries a day? at that point im a paying customer and i should be able to post that much don't you think?

more to the point: would i get a warning instead of an insta-gib ban? also can i make dupes insofar as i don't crapflood?

I thought I answered that (none / 1) (#65)
by rusty on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 03:06:22 PM EST

But I guess it was in the diary threads.

I would be a lot more likely to issue warnings for members who had paid to sign up. In the past we mainly just insta-ban dupes and people who know better, because they can just as well make a new account. I would expect to have to do a lot less warning or banning entirely with paid memberships, but when issues came up I'd warn more.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

not really an answer (3.00 / 2) (#68)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 03:26:11 PM EST

what i asked is would you let me bend the rules a bit? what if a long time member dupe voted someone as a joke?

there in lies the issue.

[ Parent ]

I offer 10 USD for Z.C.Kurtz anonymation (3.00 / 9) (#70)
by sausalito on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 03:33:25 PM EST

30 for an IP ban

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

The rules... (3.00 / 2) (#72)
by rusty on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 04:55:40 PM EST

...such as they are, have always been pretty flexible. I would be very happy to have some sort of continuity the lean on in dealing with letting people know what the rules are and when they've broken them.

Also, you of all people to be asking this? Sheesh, for how long have I been letting you bend the rules now? :-)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Meh. (3.00 / 2) (#80)
by regeya on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 09:02:19 PM EST

You could probably get away with making Daily Kos pay, especially since it gets whored around on Nightline all the time, but kuro5hin is barely elevated above adequacy.org anymore. At best I think it might be a temporary diaper fund for you. And I bought my own diapers; I ain't buying yours for you.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

thank you rusty (3.00 / 2) (#83)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 10:00:57 PM EST

my OCD needs a playground and i want you to know you have provided it. your accomplished will be admired for years.

[ Parent ]
I think that's right. (none / 0) (#142)
by aphrael on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 02:41:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
If you went into a restaurant... (3.00 / 2) (#93)
by skyknight on Sat Sep 08, 2007 at 08:37:59 PM EST

bought a hamburger, and then shit on the floor, would you be surprised when they threw you out?

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
If the floor was covered in shit (none / 0) (#117)
by thugsonfilm on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 01:19:31 PM EST

and the owners themselves shit on it, I'd be quite surprised actually.

It's a nice analogy though.

[ Parent ]

That's ridiculous (3.00 / 6) (#46)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 08:44:26 AM EST

Who would trust Rusty Foster with their credit card number?

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour
yes -nt (none / 1) (#59)
by Repost To Diary If It Gets Dumped on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 02:11:45 PM EST

better solution (3.00 / 4) (#64)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 03:04:52 PM EST

new users can only comment. then later they can mod comments, then later they can have a diary, then later they can post stories

dupes are retarded, i don't understand why anyone would have a dupe account

and if anybody is paying anyone, rusty is paying me for sending traffic here with my brilliant, witty, insightful, levelheaded and even tempered stories and comments

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

STFU (3.00 / 3) (#71)
by Sgt York on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 04:25:04 PM EST


There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

but if it wasn't for socks (none / 1) (#120)
by postDigital on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 05:41:50 PM EST

they'd never get any sex

[ Parent ]
In b4 HOEP U GOT 5BUX (3.00 / 4) (#69)
by ksandstr on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 03:31:45 PM EST

Repeat comment from the diary. How come people post diaries in the queue, and queue-worthy meta crap in the diary?

Not like I'm some huge content contributor... (3.00 / 2) (#77)
by dissonant on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 06:40:02 PM EST

...but I can promise that the day I have to pay for K5 is the day I close my account.

Back in the earlier years of the site when the content was a bit more intelligent, I'd have considered it.   Not in its present state.  Not even close.  

It used to be that K5 was like a thinking man's /. but with a wider variety of stories.   Now, I dare say K5 might just be as obnoxious as /.

the sad/lame thing is... (3.00 / 2) (#78)
by thekubrix on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 06:59:08 PM EST

That the payment isn't something that is meant to help the site, earn a profit, or give something back to the user base, but rather it's a desperate attempt at "controlling" the offending users.

[ Parent ]
Doesn't even appear to be (3.00 / 3) (#87)
by Josh Smith II on Sat Sep 08, 2007 at 03:09:15 AM EST

a particularly well thought out one even. Surely some sort of IP/IPBlock/DNS/etc method could be used instead, and wouldn't offend the good users so much. I know there can be multiple people on a given IP, but there's still several very possible technical solutions to that.

This just seems like lazy ass thinking from someone who can't be bothered to maintain K5 anymore. Fuck, he hasn't even been bothered to maintain it since we all came together and paid him a fucking wage.

Everyone's bandying about with this whole "K5 is now crapflooders" thing, but if that's the case it's Rusty's fault. He let it slip like this, he fucked off with all our money without providing any support, and now he wants to further fuck the community so only crapflooders who already have dozens of accounts will be able to post free?

Fuck. That. Shit.

-- Josh Smith recommends you take a hulver hike.
[ Parent ]

money aint the problem, administration is (3.00 / 5) (#79)
by nostalgiphile on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 08:31:42 PM EST

IMO charging a fee will only slow things, which are already slow, down. Instead, if only the current admin roster would change the site might even grow and draw new users again...As with most magazines/journals, the editorial board has control--and responsibility--over ensuring good content and vitality. And hell, let's admit it, there are plenty of respected, ACTIVE users here who could act as better, more effective admins than most of the current ones...who show up far less often than Rusty himself!

(And no, this isn't a call for greater admin intervention [except in the case of weeding out malicious hacks]. It's a call for better editors/admins).

Repeats point: no one is actively (or even occasionally) promoting/admining K5; money isn't the problem.

Btw, I said yes to 'I would pay $10 for k5 lifetime membership', thinking "but only if I get admin privileges" as I clicked...

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler

An abysmally stupid idea. (3.00 / 2) (#81)
by regeya on Fri Sep 07, 2007 at 09:13:59 PM EST

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, will kill this site quicker than making it pay-only. Maybe that's Rusty's point; once the nappiest trailer in the park is abandoned when the kegger is no longer free, he can scrap the thing and ditch the idea of the Foundation forever. Then he can concentrate on the paying work, and on exorcising Scoop from Daily Kos.

On the one hand, it's just $5. On the other hand, it's $5 just to get in. Who the hell is ever going to care enough about this crapflood to spend $5 to contribute? The asshats will just find a way around, be it donation cards or opening bank accounts or just signing up every time some Visa provider hits the local college campus. This will, I predict, be only slightly more effective than, say, blocking/allowing only one login per IP.

I think y'all are going to have to be more aggressive about existing policies, and rework your code to help automagically enforce the policy.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]

So what sort of stuff do we want to discourage? (3.00 / 2) (#92)
by Psycho Dave on Sat Sep 08, 2007 at 07:56:22 PM EST

I have to say, part of the charm of K5 is some of the cruder content. Even some dupes can be fun, but things have gotten too far out of control.

Let's take Lemon Juice. His diaries are short, repetitive, and really pathetic. However, with enough repetition, I found myself being somewhat amused by him. Guys like FEKLAAR on the other hand, are sort of lame. And Egil's cult-of-one got outta hand. But what is the fundamental difference between them? What about Baldrson? He's a racist, but I miss Mr. Bowery and his crackpot stuff.

The real damage of duplicates isn't the content they produce, but how they can game the voting system. Back when there were more users, it wasn't such a problem. But with the voting threshold lowered it has the influence to hold more sway.

Let's think of what Plato said about democracy and how it in the end encourages sloth within it's citizenery. Perhaps the solution is to make K5 a bit less democratic? I think an active editorial board that can fast track real content and slap down bullshit might be the solution.

history (3.00 / 2) (#104)
by raduga on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 04:02:02 AM EST

Athens tried Democracy. Result? pwned by Sparta.

Rome tried Republic. Result? pwned by Caesar.

Rome then tried Empire. Result? pwned by Goths.

Russia overthrew the Цар, started a Democracy. Result? pwned by Commies.

China did the same thing. Result? DOUBLE PWN : Japanese then Commies.

Russia had a glorious workers' revolution, after pwning the Democrats. Result? pwned 70 years later by plutocrat fascists.

The long and the short of it is, neither democracy nor non-democracy really helps.
People will be lazy and get their ass handed to them eventually, no matter what.

[ Parent ]

That is the most succinct (none / 1) (#105)
by Resonant on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 04:22:07 AM EST

statement of my current belief structure I have seen. In the end, everything dies. Democracy is no different...it just makes the small guy feel important.

"I answer, 'This is _quantitative_ religious studies.'" - glor
[ Parent ]
but if you're a small guy (3.00 / 2) (#112)
by raduga on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 12:59:44 PM EST

democracies are rather more likely to
maintain a better standard of living- at least while it lasts.

Re: Plato
He wasn't a small guy.

[ Parent ]

Democracy is spoken of as if it were (none / 1) (#114)
by thugsonfilm on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 01:12:09 PM EST

some shining goddess of salvation on a pedestal. It is my guess that it's early utility was merely in being able to proffer more, and better motivated, soldiers in the field. It's benefits were chiefly military.

Somehow it has become conflated with "freedom" as if you can't have oppressive democracies (which is a joke, the majority rules position is a recipe for oppression. All that democracy can suggest is that the majority is less likely to be oppressed, but even that's not a certainty.)

Democracy has become a major theme in propaganda. Everyone lives in a "democracy" no matter where you live. I suspect that democracy has never really existed, and existing, has never really worked the way its advocates say it is supposed to act. It is a form of religion really. Democracy is a kind of god that everyone worships and no one is willing to challenge.

[ Parent ]

decent, but a bit ass backwards (3.00 / 2) (#122)
by postDigital on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 07:42:35 PM EST

and that is understandable, given the preponderance of politicised rhetoric.

First and foremost, America has never been a Democratic government. It is a Republican(nothing to do with the current contemptible political party) Representative government, in which the citizenry chooses their representatives using Democratic methods. In fact, many of the American Founders had an extremely dim view of pure Democracies, especially after the French Revolution loosed the Guillotine wielding mob mob upon the world. This still may be the best example for Tyranny of The Masses in the history of humankind. It was a perceived threat from pro-democracy French influences that caused the Federalist to piss in their pants, and enact the Alien and Sedition Bills. This was a primary reason that Jefferson won the Presidency in an election where he'd been demonised for not only his godlessness, but because he was too French.

Why you have it ass-backwards though is because this Nation was not founded upon Democratic Ideals; it was founded upon the concept of a Natural Human Right to Liberty which was preexistent and preeminent to the State. With this as the axiom, the best government they could conceive which quickly devolve into a tyranny, was a republican government with strong democratic methods for choosing the leaders, and that placed strict limitations upon the powers the people had given to their government, as well as specifically delineated minority rights of the people, that only a super majority Constitutional Amendment could lawfully abridge.

You are correct that democraccy has been jacked by propagandisers, and one of the finest present-day examples of this is Mr. Bush himself. Although he loudly touts the greatness of democratic political processes for all of humankind, and revised the Causes for War Upon Iraq from WMDs to the liberation of the Iraqi People:

  • Mr. Bush won the US Presidency in 2000 without even getting a plurality of the votes
  • Mr. Bush allows Saudi Princes to slip him the tongue at his Crawford, Texas spread in front of worldwide news cameras.
  • Mr. Bush plays pocket pool with the Pakistani dictator Musharraf, who ascended to power after deposing the democratically elected government there.
  • Mr. Bush, for several years after 911, openly slept with the Butcher of Andijon, Uzbekistan's dictator, Islam Karamov.
  • Mr. Bush claims that the War Powers of The US Constitution have given him the right to act without the restrictions placed upon him by the very same document, which is the sole legitimiser of his lawful exercise of power.

So yeah, all this talk of Democracy's goodness and righteousness is pretty much just prevaricating packages of poop being pitched to the people by the party of potty peepers.

[ Parent ]
Fuck whoa! (none / 0) (#160)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Tue Nov 06, 2007 at 06:16:09 PM EST

I can read cyrillic. Kagda etah? Goddammit, still can't type it.

Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
is it a poll? i wouldn't pay personally (3.00 / 2) (#100)
by elaineradford on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 12:08:12 AM EST

It is nothing against K5 but I participate in so many sites that whenever a site switches to pay, I just drop that site.  I don't think posters who provide content should also be asked to pay.  Obviously, if it's an unknown poster who has never posted anything of value, that's a different question.  But in the real world, we all waste too much time posting as it is, and each time a site goes to being paid, it is a great opportunity to leave that site and reclaim some lost time.

We should be paid for posting (none / 0) (#115)
by thugsonfilm on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 01:14:31 PM EST

not be merely given the freedom to avoid being charged. This site is driven by the content we generate.

[ Parent ]
Broken from start (2.00 / 3) (#101)
by rhdntd on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 01:02:46 AM EST

Does anyone have a credit card from a bank that doesn't issue temporary account numbers for online transactions?

OK, $5 per crapflooding account might reduce the volume somewhat, but it won't help the trolls that much.  That's not much price to pay for their art.

Spammers will just have the accounts charged to stolen cards anyway.

I don't care about meta issues enough to think very much, nor have I read all the existing comments yet.  Frankly, I've heard the same thing every year for a long time and I haven't gotten an adequate definition of what people think is broken.  I don't see it.  It just struck me within 2 seconds that the supposed benefit from hashing card information just won't be there.

"book chicks really seem to like anal"
  — Lady 3Jane

Excellent points (none / 0) (#116)
by thugsonfilm on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 01:16:11 PM EST

those who want to abuse won't be stopped.

What exactly is the "abuse" anyway?

[ Parent ]

Self-abuse, mostly. (2.50 / 4) (#125)
by BJH on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 07:48:24 AM EST

Look it up.
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

[ Parent ]
Look up self-abuse? (none / 1) (#132)
by thugsonfilm on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 11:21:04 AM EST

Son, you find self-abuse in the dictionary and my picture will be there. I define self-abuse.

[ Parent ]
you're all being trolled (2.75 / 4) (#103)
by loteck on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 03:18:43 AM EST

everyone's interest in this site is the problem. you all need to start caring as much as rusty and the admins do. then all of k5's problems go away.

nothing you say matters. no suggestions will be considered, no follow-up actions will occur. nobody cares about your opinions concerning what k5 should be. rusty et al will do only that which requires the least amount of effort for the maximum amount of protection against attackers.

your concerns and consideration are not appreciated. go back to posting repetitive memes in the ghetto and shut the fuck up.
"You're in tune to the musical sound of loteck hi-fi, the musical sound that moves right round. Keep on moving ya'll." -Mylakovich

what about SMS ? (2.75 / 4) (#107)
by vqp on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 09:59:16 AM EST

Google solved the problem of dupes using SMS: they ask you to send an SMS to some number and then they return a secret code. Of course they store a hash of the phone number and don't allow more registrations from that number.

Will it work outside USA?

happiness = d(Reality - Expectations) / dt

Google's SMS stuff works fine internationally too (none / 0) (#147)
by rpt on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 05:50:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Want to pay for forum membership? Use The Well $ (none / 1) (#119)
by Pentashagon on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 04:52:21 PM EST

I've already paid.... (none / 1) (#121)
by ckm on Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 05:54:28 PM EST

... I contributed to the foundation, and have been around longer than most on K5.  It's true that this site has gone downhill in the last few years, but it's mostly due to lack of good content (probably due to the rise of blogging) and poor leadership.

Rusty's been largely absent and there has been little energy or direction from what remains of the editors/moderators.  I think charging for membership would just kill the site entirely.  Instead, why not encourage more story contributions?  

Another site I'm on has some similar issues (treesandthings.com), but has dealt with it through a community process that's made for a much better site I read much more often than K5.


two questions (none / 0) (#141)
by aphrael on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 02:38:01 PM EST

  1. what was the community process?

  2. how did the community deal with those who wouldn't abide the rules the process set down?

[ Parent ]
In answer to 2 (none / 0) (#150)
by wiredog on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 11:22:23 AM EST

We went to HuSI.

The idea of a global village is wrong, it's more like a gazillion pub bars.
[ Parent ]

Too bad you forgot to bring any quality content (none / 0) (#151)
by The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 11:28:13 AM EST

I'm a pompous windbag, I take myself far too seriously, and I single-handedly messed up K5 by causing the fiction section to be created. --localroger

[ Parent ]
heh. (none / 0) (#152)
by aphrael on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 02:05:07 AM EST

i wasn't speaking about k5, i was asking about what happened at this other site the grandparent comment mentioned.

k5's exodus to husi is well documented. and, i might add, well known to me. :)

[ Parent ]

quitter (nt) (none / 0) (#155)
by GhostOfTiber on Wed Sep 12, 2007 at 12:32:15 PM EST

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Fool me once... (none / 1) (#149)
by RevLoveJoy on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 11:13:38 AM EST

Last time Rusty came asking for cash, I ponied up a c-note to the CMF. This was essentially Rusty's boat fund. The CMF never came to be (or did it? if it did, I never heard about it). No other action like this was ever taken and shortly thereafter Rusty bailed on K5 to go be a big mucker at dailykos.

I liked the PBS model Rusty was extolling to keep this place afloat and afford some moderation. Every year or so, Rusty would beg for cash and we, the community, would be guilted into supporting him. I was OK with that. Not thrilled, but OK. Rusty was far less annoying than Jerry Lewis.

I think if you want your community to trust you with their dollars Rusty, you need to stick to your guns and not change your mind each time you ask for cash.

Every political force in the U.S. that seeks to get past the Constitution by sophistry or technicality is little more than a wannabe king. -- pyro9

At least it keeps you on your toes (n/t) (none / 0) (#157)
by joecool12321 on Mon Sep 24, 2007 at 04:05:14 AM EST

Money?! (none / 0) (#161)
by timetrap on Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 02:55:45 PM EST

This makes me glad that I remembered my password . . .

BREAKING NEWS - Welcome to K5, the pay site | 160 comments (154 topical, 6 editorial, 2 hidden)
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