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[P]
It's time to take Kuro5hin back from the trolls

By psychologist in Meta
Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:04:52 AM EST
Tags: community (all tags)

There was a time a long time ago when I would log into Kuro5hin and I'd see that a known name had posted a new diary. I'd go over, read what they had to say, and post some comments. Then I'd go over to the story queue, make some suggestions on spelling on a story or two, vote up a story on Technology, vote down a story on politics, then go to write my passionate reply to a diary I had read the day before. It was fun, it was calming, and it was home.

Today I log into Kuro5hin, and I see that right now, undermyne writes:

Given the length of the baseball season and the number of games required (162), it is not surpising that lazy niggers are opting for a 16 game NFL season or an 82 game NBA season.

This is not how things should be, and we have to change. There is no hand of God that will come down to make things change, each and everyone of us here can create this change that we need.


I have zero respect for the niggers who let themselves to be enslaved. My forefathers lived for hundreds of years under Swedish and Russian rule, but refused to be enslaved despite attempts. Africans still live, act and die like savages, while we have the most advanced fucking society on earth, in some of the most inhospitable climates on earth, lacking in natural resources and with very short summers. Man I'm no racist, but I fucking hate niggers.

signed MotorMachineMercenary

That is not the Kuro5hin I know.


THABO MBEKI IS AN AIDS-RIDDEN, FASCIST COCKSUCKER. I'D CALL HIM A NIGGER BUT THAT WOULD BE AN INSULT TO NIGGERS THE WORLD OVER.

signed LilDebbie

This is not what our community has become!

But when I open the next page and I read that chlorus writes


I MEAN COME ON, WE HAULED THEIR POOR ASSES OUT OF AFRICA AND DID THEM A HUGE FAVOR, THEY LIVE BETTER HERE NOW THAN THEY EVER WOULD HAVE IN AFRICA. AND THEN THEY HAVE THE NERVE TO HOLD RACE RIOTS AFTER WE HAVE GIVEN THEM SO MUCH (PUBLIC HOUSING, FOOD STAMPS, WELFARE). UNGRATEFUL APES.

and Empedocles, bodza and Jobst of Moravia all rate him a 3, and nobody votes against that comment, I fear that indeed, perhaps

this IS what we've become.

These people want to take our internet home from us. The have marched in here with their hate and their derision and their tearing down of everything we have, and all we have done is bent our heads and run away.

Why should I run? Why would a man challenge me and I give up without fighting? I REFUSE TO. This site is mine as much as it is yours, and damn it if you will not treat me with the civility that EVERYONE in the world deserves.

When they came we had nothing to fight them with. The trolls came in slowly and silently, and at the start it seemed like a game. Soon it was impossible to distinguish where trollery stopped and discussion started. And before long, the site was lost to them.

When they came we had nothing to fight them with. We were defenseless against their bitterness, their hate, their spite and their need to destroy. We were, but we no longer are! We have been given a weapon, a little weapon, but as mighty as the stone that brought Goliath down.

Five dollars.

That's what it costs to get in, and that's what you save to stay out. Each and everyone of those trolls who gets thrown out because of our work will have to pay Five Dollars to get back in. And that's our weapon.

The people who refuse to be civil within the community should be made to leave. Calling a man a nigger is not a discussion, it's not an opinion, it's not a name, it is a slur.

Rusty, when enough people recommend a person be thrown out of the community, then please do so. You said you'd give us democracy, then let this place be democratic. We want to clean up, you gave us the guns, now for heavens sake, supply us with the bullets and we're ready to ride and drive those damn fools out.

It's time to change, and sometimes change needs blood slashed up against the city walls.

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Do you want the trollery kicked out of K5?
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Display: Sort:
It's time to take Kuro5hin back from the trolls | 407 comments (389 topical, 18 editorial, 17 hidden)
Amen (2.72 / 11) (#1)
by Liar on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 02:48:27 PM EST




I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
the problem is (2.75 / 12) (#2)
by lostincali on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 02:52:31 PM EST

that the k5 userbase has become so jaded and callous to the run of the mill "u are a faggit!" brand of trolling that the only way for anyone to get noticed anymore is to run around and try to make *shocking* comments about how much they hate niggers, how barack obama is a nigger, etc.

this is obviously also the reason for the all caps posts.

i mean no offense to undermyne, but has anyone ever cared what that guy had to say?

"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."

its not just k5 (none / 1) (#46)
by ray eckson on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:40:39 PM EST

look at the soft underbelly of the internet in general.  we are not unique, and we are certainly not even close to the most offensive.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
I think that's the thing though - you're right (2.66 / 3) (#88)
by livus on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:52:11 PM EST

K5 isnt particularly offensive. It's not hardcore  anything. If people are looking for offensive, we go somewhere else.

We're looking for something different here.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

yea (2.25 / 4) (#103)
by ray eckson on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:47:52 PM EST

a few of us exist to offend the last vestiges of you who give a fuck


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
but you could never offend me (2.00 / 4) (#105)
by livus on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:59:16 PM EST

when I want to be offended, I do something else.

I suppose if you could get yourself a sig that featured some sort of child pornography which involved yourself diddling some toddler with open sores and an anal fistula to automatically open a window and start playing, then we might begin to talk about offending me.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

I haven't focused on you - target poor environment (1.50 / 4) (#128)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:44:44 AM EST

in other words, you're a boring vapid twit


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
ah, you mean (2.50 / 2) (#142)
by tetsuwan on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:25:57 AM EST

not easily offended, AMIRITE? Why pick on hard targets when you have GoT?

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

he used to talk to me moar, as I recall (none / 1) (#280)
by livus on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:35:49 PM EST

I think he and I basically just bored each other.

The CDiss/ K5 relationship is like one of those marriages where he no longer finds it exciting and so he turns to sex toys and fantasy enactments in order to cling to the idea that what he has is still good.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

what do you want from me? (none / 1) (#356)
by ray eckson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:20:05 PM EST

say something memorable and/or spectacularly stupid and i'll take notice of you


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
why would I want you to take notice of me? (3.00 / 2) (#357)
by livus on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:11:27 PM EST

if I wanted that kind of notice, I'd go to the local soup kitchen wearing no pants.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
soup kitchen adventures + queue = +1FP from me (3.00 / 3) (#358)
by ray eckson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:15:11 PM EST




wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
Yeah right. Keep telling yourself that. (3.00 / 3) (#271)
by livus on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:22:58 PM EST

face it nothing you can post here will particularly offend me. K5 really isn't an offensive site.

Some of you live in a repressive lifestyle or something so you feel good saying "taboo" things here, which is cute in a way, but the trouble is you mistake disagreement for "taking offense" because the latter is more exciting.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

excellent reaction time ya got there (3.00 / 2) (#273)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:26:40 PM EST




wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
heh. (none / 1) (#282)
by livus on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:37:32 PM EST

yeah wasn't here yesterday at all, hence the slow motion bite.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
don't be humble... (none / 0) (#364)
by Wain on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:18:27 AM EST

you're not that great.

[ Parent ]
huh (none / 0) (#260)
by kbudha on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:48:49 PM EST

You actually care what some people have to say?

Better yet.

Some people actually care what you have to say?
.

[ Parent ]

OMG (2.84 / 13) (#5)
by Sgt York on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:11:48 PM EST

You mean they are stealing our internets? And we should get revenge by stealing their five dollars? Or maybe we should sue?

Srsly though, if I wanted a kinder, gentler K5 I'd go to husi. K5 is a high school locker room. If you cleaned it up, it just wouldn't be right. That smell is supposed to be there. It's part of the experience.

Also, "splashed", not "slashed" and you left part of MMM's quote out of the quote block.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.

frog in a slowly heated pot (2.88 / 9) (#15)
by Liar on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:41:16 PM EST

You came in when it was already bubbling, tossed in a few mice and thought the boiling was the entire point. There's a lot of us who miss the real discussions that used to happen here.

For me, the articles that can never appear here are ones where Jimbo Wales and Richard Sanger personally traded punches. K5 had (and although vanishingly still has) potential as a site for notable discussion. It has problems, sure, but I'm a big believer that the problems of a democratic system can be fixed through more democracy.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
Of all the people, of all the sites on the (2.33 / 3) (#19)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:47:43 PM EST

internet, you pick out Jimbo "Wackjob" Wales. If the ghetto keeps his kind off the site, I'll write a daily diary about ponies.

Jimbo was on K5. I feel dirty. I need a shower.

--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
MMM, I used to read your work (none / 1) (#22)
by psychologist on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:50:40 PM EST

Back in the day, you used to be pretty cool. I come back to find this... wreck. What happened?

[ Parent ]
I stopped thinking rusty cares, or anyone else (2.80 / 5) (#51)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:13:57 PM EST

for that matter. I was away for a year for [redacted], came back to a trolls have won -site.

It is the peak of naivety (or hubris) to think that something as retarded as $5 for sign-ups will do anything but dry this shithole further. I'm not saying I have the solution, but there were a helluva many better propositions by us on the table when that shitstorm began.

I write my intellectual shit elsewhere, as this cesspool is not worth it. CBB was one of the few good writers here, and he got this site. localroger still contributes some good shit - although he should be writing more novels -, as does the bee guy and my perennial favorite Sgt York. Everyone else, undersigned included, is here for the shits and giggles. And that's reflected in the quality.

For the record, I did fight back for a good while before succumbing to... this. But enough decent, solid stories voted down (mine and others'), while FNH and its ilk get on the front page is just too much.

Now this site has become a research project for a novel I'm writing.

--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
Drying a swamp isn't a bad thing (3.00 / 5) (#61)
by Liar on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:05:06 PM EST

and neither was FNH. I've seldom been more proud of K5 than for the FNH story. The weak imitations of FNH on the other hand...

Right now, K5 is a slum because the landlord has no vision that he's implementing, no guiding principle, and therefore only the most minimal of standards of decorum. That's the nature of rusty's experiment--to see where the community will lead it. Unfortunately, there's little available for the community to police itself and so the culture of the community is defined by whomever is most prolific. So, quantity wins over quality because quality takes time and effort and provide any benefit to its creator.

Give the community a means to police itself, however, and I think we can see an improvement in quality. It's not guaranteed, and the diaspora we've experienced of quality writers over the years may mean it's too late. But if we want quality articles, we need to pay our writers, and writers want worthy eyeballs if they're not going to get cash. Otherwise, it's pearls before swine.

I'd be willing to commit to a submission schedule of stories--even for a diminished audience--if I thought that the audience was worth it. Get enough people like that, you get good stories. Good stories brings readers. Good enforceable community standards ensures that the readers are good members and therefore a good payment to the authors.

So, I'm in favor of drying this swamp and rebuilding it. I'm even willing to roll up my sleeves for the rebuilding.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
You say it better than I could, Sir (3.00 / 3) (#73)
by psychologist on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:56:25 PM EST

There are people here who are intelligent and insightful, but even these people are fooling around with short meaningless contributions.

We need to be able to police this place, you're absolutely right.

[ Parent ]

What kind of research? ~ (none / 0) (#161)
by i1318 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:15:03 PM EST


--
Ban Ray Eckson Next

[ Parent ]
Cultural and literary /nt (none / 1) (#182)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:26:14 PM EST


--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
Cultural and literary.... HERE?!?!?! ~ (1.00 / 2) (#186)
by i1318 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:37:19 PM EST


--
Ban Ray Eckson Next

[ Parent ]
I'm not writing War and Peace /nt (none / 0) (#193)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:10:27 PM EST


--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
maybe 'Fear and Loathing' ? ~ (1.50 / 2) (#194)
by i1318 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:12:44 PM EST


--
Ban Ray Eckson Next

[ Parent ]
Bingo /nt (none / 1) (#195)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:31:07 PM EST


--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
clarification (none / 0) (#196)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:32:32 PM EST

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas meets American Psycho.

--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
Never read American Psycho. Is it good? ~ (1.00 / 2) (#197)
by i1318 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:36:28 PM EST


--
Ban Ray Eckson Next

[ Parent ]
Best modern satire there is /nt (1.50 / 2) (#208)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:24:22 PM EST


--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
I'm your favorite? awwww (2.66 / 3) (#232)
by Sgt York on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:54:23 AM EST

Fuck. fuckfuckfuckfuck. Musclebound repressed homofag obsessed with me.

I am NEVER going to Norway or whateverthfuck country that is you're from. I don't care what kind of furniture you people make.

And FNH was a K5 top 5, no contest.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

=^_^= /nt (2.50 / 2) (#235)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:44:07 PM EST


--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
Yes, he is a nutjob (2.83 / 6) (#31)
by Liar on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:07:57 PM EST

but a notable one. And personally, I find the views of notable nutjobs to be very interesting. Would Keith Hanson have originally come here if he saw the reach and importance of this site now? What about mindpixel or Michael Crawford?

I think what psychologist is asking for is this: are we a community who wants to believe we can make a difference? If so, let's make a difference here first.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
K5 used to be ersatz for usenet (2.80 / 5) (#21)
by psychologist on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:49:15 PM EST

I started off in usenet, it got all messy and I went to slashdot. That got too hard to be heard, and I came here and was home. Then suddenly home got invaded by rats.

I wish we could just make a big list of people who do not contribute to this site and should either shutup or get out.

[ Parent ]

oh and you should be the listmaker (1.75 / 4) (#32)
by ray eckson on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:09:32 PM EST

who died and made you rusty, I wonder


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
me too; same progression /nt (none / 1) (#335)
by FreakWent on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:42:42 AM EST



[ Parent ]
Honestly (2.66 / 3) (#37)
by Sgt York on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:14:11 PM EST

if it was anything different, I wouldn't have stayed here. If K5 was like every other damn discussion site on the net, I'd probably be spending my time doing something productive.

Also, the name dropping didn't help much; I had to Google both of those names. I was almost impressed, but then I recalled that it's Frederick Sanger. Although (after my Google search) I did find it interesting that Richard Sanger has no Wikipedia entry.

Notable discussion? No thank you. I get plenty of meaningful civilized discussion elsewhere. Today, I spent two hours debating ciliarry dyskinesia with a bunch of physicists who can't get it through their skulls that biological systems are not fucking mathematical equations. A MODEL IS NOT THE REAL THING, OK?

Fuck notable discussions. I come here to watch obnoxious people be obnoxious. I want to be able to yell at someone and call him a festering lump of chode butter, and suffer no repercussions for it.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

And you haven't found 4chan yet? (3.00 / 2) (#43)
by Liar on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:22:41 PM EST

There's PLENTY of obnoxious sites out there. Why do you need one with moderation? The point of moderation is to weed out the obnoxiousness.

And, yeah, for some reason, I got Richard Stallman and Larry Sanger mixed in my head and typed out their bastardized love child. Mea culpa.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
you're on k5 and you expect moderation? (3.00 / 4) (#53)
by ray eckson on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:20:27 PM EST

Lets go through a list!  Whee!

Rusty - leader in abstentia, who can't be fucked
Inoshiro - who?  last seen in 2004.
driph - who?  posts once a year, tops.  last seen in 2007.
panner - who?  Last seen in 2002.
Capn Analille - fracked off to dkos
MostlyHrmls - fracked off to husi
Aphrael - fracked off to husi
Janra - fracked off to husi
BadDoggie - fracked off to husi

You expect THAT bunch to moderate k5?  Blow that!  If we're going to have mods, I want mods who know what k5 IS.  K5 doesn't need pantywaist mods that pine for some circlejerk wetdream of what it once was, for less than a quarter of k5's lifespan.

So rusty has a choice: either recruit mods from the current userbase (unlikely), pay some slob(s) from outside the userbase (lolworthy), or let k5 coast along on idle until the pageviews drop so low that adsense doesn't pay for the bandwidth/hosting any more, and then pull the plug (cdiss's pick).


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

Or make me superadmin (2.60 / 5) (#54)
by psychologist on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:33:14 PM EST

I'd clean this place up like I was Bush and this was Bagdahd.

[ Parent ]
see (none / 1) (#56)
by ray eckson on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:36:33 PM EST

here

this place is already a dictatorship.  rusty's.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

Typical liberal.. (2.25 / 4) (#66)
by undermyne on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:32:20 PM EST

Its not about getting rid of the trolls, its a naked power grab.

Ray Eckson - "nigger eggs are all yolk, you racist fuck"
Parent ]
All power grabs are naked if you see them (2.66 / 3) (#162)
by i1318 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:18:44 PM EST

and they aren't limited to liberals.

Frankly, I'd like to see the liberals better at their power grabs, naked or otherwise.
--
Ban Ray Eckson Next

[ Parent ]

That's not the only type of moderation (2.50 / 2) (#62)
by Liar on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:08:47 PM EST

or haven't you noticed? We vote up stores, rate comments...

The guys you mentioned, they're the final line of moderation when the rest break down. The problem--which I agree with you--is that it takes power away from the community and invests it in something which is faceless to it. The fix for this isn't to get rid of moderation, but to increase the quantity and quality of moderation available to the users.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
both types of user moderation are game-able (3.00 / 2) (#63)
by ray eckson on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:22:14 PM EST

there is no meaningful moderation available at k5 at the moment.



wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
OK (2.66 / 3) (#67)
by Liar on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:32:51 PM EST

So, I guess we give up.

A system which can be gamed isn't necessarily bad as long as it errs on the side of caution. But, until we're given tools which can have meaningful results, we won't know.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
no, we have mods that actually are k5 users (3.00 / 2) (#68)
by ray eckson on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:37:36 PM EST

and we moderate appropriately. right now we coast along with rusty logging in once a week, reading abuse reports, and maybe banning one person and dumping a bunch of warnings.  oh boy.

I'd like to see 2-3 admins in rotation a day, each day.  I'd like to see the rules actually enforced in some sort of sane fashion.  Until that day, we have the inmates running the asylum, barring the occasional lightning strike.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

That has it's problems too. (3.00 / 3) (#72)
by Liar on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:54:45 PM EST

The problem with appointing someone as mod is that in no time, they no longer want to be mods. It's all responsibility and no reward. You'll take unpopular actions and be despised by someone who is more vocal than reasoned. It becomes a thankless obligation and in no time, that moderator who was in good standing with the community finds himself leaving the community entirely.

The solution is to get rid of appointments or faceless moderation. Make the process transparent, and let the community clean up its own mess. There are plenty here who would be volunteer policemen if they can choose the hours--this is way to manage that.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
I'm all ears (none / 1) (#74)
by ray eckson on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:57:04 PM EST

how do we do it your way?

I sure hope it doesn't involve modifying scoop.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

having not looked at scoop, probably (2.50 / 2) (#77)
by Liar on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:29:34 PM EST

but I think that the ideas that psychologist has posted earlier is a start in the right direction.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
then you better start boning up on your perl (none / 1) (#78)
by ray eckson on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:34:30 PM EST

and finding yourself some hosting, cuz rusty has shown consistently that he will only modify scoop when forced (i.e. catflooder/spellcheck bot)


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
useless pessimism (3.00 / 3) (#82)
by Liar on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:04:36 PM EST

You make it seem like it's going to require invasive changes to Scoop. It's not that difficult to develop a module that would work complementarily with scoop, much like that private mail module that someone independently developed.

And bonus: it doesn't have to be written in perl.

You're letting your cynicism and lack of imagination to cloud your ability to get things done.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
MY ability? (none / 0) (#102)
by ray eckson on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:47:21 PM EST

I'm not the one hellbent to get k5 changed.  thats you and pseudoscientist.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
Yes, your ability (2.50 / 2) (#149)
by Liar on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:02:31 AM EST

Me: We need to build a house

You: Well, where are you going to get the steel girders?

Me: You can use wood, you know.

You: What do you mean me?


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
SSSSSSSNAP! (2.00 / 3) (#45)
by SaintPort on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:35:20 PM EST

towel-play is afoot.

--
Search the Scriptures
Start with some cheap grace...Got Life?

[ Parent ]
Writing about these things is ok apparently (3.00 / 10) (#8)
by sausalito on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:20:59 PM EST

whereas writing about bugs and problems buying an account is not.

"Natural selection" for you.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"

psycho (2.00 / 5) (#10)
by sye on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:23:04 PM EST

if i call you psycho, will that be a SLUR or a BLUR?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
commentary - For a better sye@K5
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ripple me ~~> ~allthingsgo: gateway to Garden of Perfect Brightess in CNY/BTC/LTC/DRK
rubbing u ~~> ~procrasti: getaway to HE'LL
Hey! at least he was in a stable relationship. - procrasti
enter K5 via Blastar.in

what (none / 0) (#107)
by eavier on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:16:52 PM EST



Whatever you do, don't take it into your house. It's probably full of Greeks. - Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi

Ufology Doktor in da house

[ Parent ]
hay, easy, wait. PLUR. yeah, thats right (1.50 / 1) (#222)
by Jobst of Moravia on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:25:03 AM EST


---
              __
   .,-;-;-,. /'_\ ---Did this Negro say "Street Moor"?
 _/_/_/_|_\_\) /
'-<_><_><_><_>=\
 `/_/====/_/-'\_\
  ""     ""    ""

[ Parent ]

simple truth: (2.81 / 22) (#13)
by circletimessquare on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:34:08 PM EST

racism and racist words are toxic to anyone remotely socialized or with an iq above 80

so yes, k5 is dead if socially isolated low iq racist twits come to dominate

you can't really censor racist morons though. the best way to defeat racism is let it be freely spoken. then everyone remotely socially better adjusted or remotely more intelligent will instantly recognize the ignorant blather for what it is, and then the racist moron serves a function in society after all: a cautionary tale about how fucked up someone can become. kind of like bums sleeping on the street: we walk by and shudder that we never become like that. so it is when you see racist bs writing: you shudder that your mind should become so stupid and your social skills should be so stunted

once when baldrson lobbed his EMPTY DA CITIES crap at k5, there was a spirited offense against him. and he went away

but now it seems k5 is so empty, the truly bottom of the barrel dregs remain, and they are of course the dumbest and most socially idiotic

i do not wish to be in the company of low iq socially isolated racist morons

i wish to be in the company of my fellow insane morons, like sye and michael crawford

so maybe its time for a gang fight: racist morons versus insane morons

BATTLE FOR THE HEART OF K5

i mean uh

BATTLE FOR THE COLON OF K5


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

trane - a love supreme (3.00 / 2) (#16)
by sye on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:43:52 PM EST

trane - a love supreme
cts - an agony presume
two addictions that are one in the same.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
commentary - For a better sye@K5
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ripple me ~~> ~allthingsgo: gateway to Garden of Perfect Brightess in CNY/BTC/LTC/DRK
rubbing u ~~> ~procrasti: getaway to HE'LL
Hey! at least he was in a stable relationship. - procrasti
enter K5 via Blastar.in
[ Parent ]

sye - a fruitcake (none / 1) (#76)
by circletimessquare on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:24:43 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Okay. I'm on your side. (3.00 / 3) (#86)
by livus on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:47:04 PM EST

Insanity is at least often associated with creativity and genius, whereas racism is associated with stupidity and insularity - racists are the crashing bores one edges away from at social functions.

Besides, you're probably hot.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

hot? wtf? (2.75 / 4) (#87)
by circletimessquare on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:47:37 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I've been saying things like that to you for years (3.00 / 2) (#90)
by livus on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:53:42 PM EST

Don't pretend you've never noticed.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
i dont get it (3.00 / 2) (#94)
by circletimessquare on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:10:01 PM EST

are you gay and hitting on me? am i out of slang?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I'm not gay, I just like hitting on you. (3.00 / 2) (#99)
by livus on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:17:25 PM EST

I feel you should always be encouraged, even when I don't agree with you. You always have a point.

Plus, you know the secrets of time.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

ok, you win (2.25 / 4) (#110)
by circletimessquare on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:55:11 PM EST

you have just earned a spot on my list in the super duper top secret cabal of fellow insane morons like sye and Michael Crawford. welcome to the club, fruitcake

(secrets of time? wtf?)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

4 simultaneous days in 1 Earth rotation of course! (2.60 / 5) (#111)
by livus on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:09:16 AM EST

You won't regret this decision.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
i see you know who our secret saint is already (2.66 / 3) (#112)
by circletimessquare on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:11:24 AM EST

that's hot


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
ANOTHER DATAPOINT FOR EAVIER £ (3.00 / 2) (#125)
by jxg on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:30:27 AM EST



[ Parent ]
I just realized. . . (1.12 / 16) (#17)
by LilDebbie Lover on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:44:08 PM EST

This sotry advocated the overthrow of the US government.  Story poster declares "It's time to change, and sometimes change needs blood slashed up against the city walls."  To disect, only one person in the presidential race is calling for "change" and this person is, as is well known, a nigger.  Thus the story poster is declaring that if Barack Osama does not win, then he should lead a military revolution and have all the white people put up against the walls and executed.  How is that for change?

Signature of Disutility:
* Jedi Warrior Betrayal
* Emo Jedi Warrior Betrayal
* Betrayal of Aalya Secura
* Death of Spartan 117
* Enslavement of Man
* Humanity's Destruction
* Rise of the Horde

Also:
* "ALL I REQUIRE IS A PURPLE MARKER" ~LilDebbie
* "I'm straight but I like having sex with men" ~xC0000005
Surely you mean Barack HUSSEIN Osama /nt (2.33 / 3) (#20)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:48:10 PM EST


--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
I am outraged! (1.28 / 7) (#18)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:44:28 PM EST

You had the gall to quote the whole paragraph in my post. If you only quoted the last sentence, it would be much more effective in conveying your (stilted) message. Now it looks like I actually have an argument, thus it doesn't fit with your "OMG STOP OPPRESSING ME, HALP!" message.

If you want to be truly impartial (like you imply), quote me saying there's a difference between niggers and blacks later on in the thread.

Or try to actually shoot holes in what I wrote in the comment. But I guess that's too much to ask from... a psychologist (hint: it's as pseudo as a science can be).

--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


Don't you find it peculiar (3.00 / 3) (#26)
by tetsuwan on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:59:46 PM EST

that it was people of Swedish ancestry (e g. Elias Lönnrot) that spearheaded Finnish nationalism?

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

As a matter of fact, no (none / 1) (#49)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:59:32 PM EST

With the threat of godwining this thread, nobody's a... prophet on their own land.

--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
I'm sure we had our own prophets (none / 1) (#55)
by tetsuwan on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:35:38 PM EST

We even graciously mourned the loss of the eastern half of the country (see Tegner: "och inom Sverges gränser erövra Finland åter." - "to reconquer Finland within the borders of Sweden").

No, what was lucky for us was that this all happened before nationalism, so that we escaped a war of independence. As it happened, Finland didn't have to fight a war to get independence (but certainly to retain it), you even had a 100 year period of greater autonomy to grow into your costume.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

whut /nt (none / 0) (#57)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:42:02 PM EST


--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
well (none / 0) (#60)
by tetsuwan on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:59:50 PM EST

I guess you're just not there yet.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

Lucky for you (none / 0) (#402)
by 138 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:23:28 PM EST

but not for us. If we were still part of Sweden we would have Swedish bikini team. :)

Also we would have won Eurovision song contest more than once. Not to talk about ice hockey... and even there Finland needed a Swedish head coach to win. :)

So bad Sweden for losing a war in 1809. See what worderful future you deprieved from us! :)
--
Siili teki maalin.
[ Parent ]
I do find it funny (none / 0) (#401)
by 138 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:00:10 PM EST

Also written Finnish was founded by Swedish speking Mikael Agricola. Over 60% of vocabulary that Agricola came up with is still in use.
Furthermore, Finnish national poet, Johan Ludvig Runeberg, wrote all of his works in Swedish. :)
--
Siili teki maalin.
[ Parent ]
Dunno about Finnish (none / 0) (#405)
by Corwin06 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:07:27 AM EST

but Swedish is one of the nicest-sounding languages on Earth.

I also happen to like Italian and Japanese, find German is nice, and Dutch is a throat disease.

"and you sir, in an argument in a thread with a troll in a story no one is reading in a backwater website, you're a fucking genius
--circletimessquare
[ Parent ]
Så, du tycker om sveska (none / 0) (#408)
by 138 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 02:05:43 AM EST

kan du tala det?
I would imagine that Finnish sounds quite monotonic, stress always on the first syllable.
Agricola may have invented words that a still in use, but all in all he did not came up with too many of them, I think they can be measured in hundreds.
--
Siili teki maalin.
[ Parent ]
Crap, not sveska, svenska. (none / 0) (#409)
by 138 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 02:18:50 AM EST

Seems like I am not able to write it albeit being taught Swedish for 6 years in school.
--
Siili teki maalin.
[ Parent ]
I'm not trying to make you look bad (2.33 / 3) (#28)
by psychologist on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:03:41 PM EST

I'm quoting what you said. I'm not picking a little piece of your speech to make you look racist - I'm quoting a comment of yours that is simply racist. It does not matter if you feel you have an argument, you can make your point without resorting to calling names.

Imagine I made an argument, and peppered it with references to big nosed jews. The slur would dominate my argument as your use of the word "nigger" overshadows everything else you've said there.

[ Parent ]

Ok, point taken (1.00 / 4) (#50)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:01:06 PM EST

In the future, instead of nigger I'll make sure to use the term "malnourished sub-Saharan simpleton." Better?

--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
well said... (none / 1) (#365)
by Wain on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:28:22 AM EST

arguing semantics is a waste of time.  

Generalizations and stereotypes do in fact have a place in conversation and society so long as they do not completely occlude ones mind when dealing with a new person face to face.

So long as a fully-featured human being is capable of being witnessed in personal interactions, there is nothing wrong with generalizations...and they are in fact needed to understand and survive various societies.

So OP doesn't like the word nigger...he should look at the content of the post and determine whether or not there is any validity within rather than simply dismissing it as racist.  To do that is just as unwise.

[ Parent ]

omglook a scientologist [nt] (none / 0) (#366)
by boxed on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 04:36:56 AM EST



[ Parent ]
Rusty, I have some suggestions (2.54 / 11) (#25)
by psychologist on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 03:58:50 PM EST

We need to clean this place up. I have a few suggestions:

First of all, some changes to the site policy:

  1. No dupe accounts
  2. No ethnic slurs or real hate speech
  3. Diaries with just one word or sentences are not allowed.
  4. Comments with no real meaning are not allowed

Then make some other changes:

  1. Actually hide comments when they are voted down. Right now I can see hidden comments, and I believe this is by default. Remove this option. Put the hidden comments back in the sidebar link only. Otherwise the trolls know they have an audience

  2. When a user has many hidden comments then put this user up for ban consideration. As in, a public warning. If user continues to act bad, then let the community lynch him. Kick him out.

  3. Set a daily diary limit of 2

  4. Encourage the users to flag people who are behaving badly. If someone is flagging wrongly, or if someone gets flagged too often, then send 2 warnings, followed by ban.

There has to be this period of bannings to get this site back in order. We, your users, are tired of this.

We are willing to tolerate some facism to bring back our democracy.

you have totally lost it (1.00 / 3) (#29)
by ray eckson on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:03:51 PM EST




wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
So lets recap what you are really saying.. (2.40 / 5) (#36)
by undermyne on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:13:39 PM EST

get rid of half the active users (mostly egil dupes)

Lets arbitrarily define what kind of things people can say based on feelings (whiney bitch)

Lets cut the content level to Husi-calibre. Cat diaries.

This one is just too fucking out there to mock, it does a fine job on its own.

RTFM on hidden comments, you can make them go away.

Empower the modbombers. Make it so JXG and Linux or FreeBSD can determine who gets banned (the two least contributing fuckstains on the whole site after you).

Make the ghetto less ghetto my leaving the tripe that is there visible for longer periods of time, real smart there champ.

Lets all sit around flagging off all day in an effort to stimulate CONTENT. RLY SMRT.



"nigger eggs are all yolk, you racist fuck" - Ray Eckson


[ Parent ]
ROFL IHBT (3.00 / 2) (#41)
by Sgt York on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:16:43 PM EST

Good job, too.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

some good; some not (2.66 / 3) (#52)
by Liar on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:15:10 PM EST

1. The trolling of a dupe account is mostly in its mockery of a user or a person, like naming it Zombie Freddy Mercury. This is mitigated by the $5 fee and if a person is willing to pay for it, why deny it especially if it's otherwise harmless. Past dupes similarly should be grand-fathered in. There's no easy way to detect dupes and I'm not sure it's harming the site.

2. Couldn't agree more.

3. Depends on the content, I'd say. One of the lures of the site is the diary ghetto where people can basically twitter their diary if they want. I've written some one sentence diaries before--like the date when my fiance and I broke up.

4. This is a slippery slope, I fear. "No real meaning," to one person may be the invaluable insight to another. Comment ratings is really the solution to this as long as they have some meaning behind them.

1. Agreed. I'm not sure the site was improved when Rusty changed this, though I'm sure it had to do with the deflation of the ratings--with only a 3 point scale, there's a larger range available in which a comment is hidden but perhaps this can be mitigated by lowering the hide threshold to .6 instead of 1.

2. Good idea.

3. I prefer our gentleman's agreement that we have right now. Typically, when a person posts more than 2, they have had good reason. There hasn't been a lot of abuse in this regard--at least none that I've noticed.

4. Agreed.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
-1: I approve of their posts (1.57 / 7) (#34)
by GhostOfTiber on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:10:35 PM EST

Why don't you start some touchy feely site with a cow mascot or something where the women can go and have emotional wankfests to feel good about themselves. You could call it warmfuzzy.com or wufi for short.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne

its not time to take kuro5hin back from the trolls (2.58 / 12) (#59)
by loteck on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:54:39 PM EST

can we reschedule this for maybe q3? im kind of busy.
--
"You're in tune to the musical sound of loteck hi-fi, the musical sound that moves right round. Keep on moving ya'll." -Mylakovich
"WHAT AN ETERNAL MOBIUS STRIP OF FELLATIATIC BANALITY THIS IS." -Harry B Otch

I don't know what q3 means (none / 1) (#84)
by levesque on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:19:42 PM EST

+2.5

[ Parent ]
third quarter (2.50 / 2) (#101)
by loteck on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:23:04 PM EST

you know, of like, the year?
--
"You're in tune to the musical sound of loteck hi-fi, the musical sound that moves right round. Keep on moving ya'll." -Mylakovich
"WHAT AN ETERNAL MOBIUS STRIP OF FELLATIATIC BANALITY THIS IS." -Harry B Otch

[ Parent ]
Spoken by a true between jobs -person /nt (none / 1) (#181)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:25:12 PM EST


--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
Hum (none / 0) (#344)
by levesque on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:38:18 AM EST

Part time student, volunteer, court case (my last job)

[ Parent ]
Go on rusty (2.50 / 4) (#65)
by gumbo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:31:57 PM EST

After all, it couldn't possibly make things any worse. A little revolution might be a good thing. Time for a putsch.

make another gmail account for him to email you at (none / 0) (#69)
by ray eckson on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:38:26 PM EST




wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
AS A WHITE BOY BORN IN A NIGGER FAMILY... (1.22 / 9) (#80)
by thekubrix on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:42:27 PM EST

I AM OFFENDED, SIR

+1FP; author completely clueless (1.30 / 10) (#83)
by lonelyhobo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:07:06 PM EST

and fucking retarded.  talk some more about how you're a male prostitute in africa or whatever the fuck it is you go on about that noone gives a shit about.

Pull your head out of your ass.

A simple truth about K5 (2.83 / 12) (#85)
by localroger on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:44:51 PM EST

Please direct your attention to the little circular logo at the top of the page, on the left. I know, you probably have to scroll up to do it. I'll wait.

That is the Tacoma Narrows Bridge.

That is kuro5hin's logo. You know, the site whose name is pronounced CORROSION. Not that corrosion took out Gallopin' Gertie, but it's just a different kind of major engineering failure.

THAT IS THE SITE LOGO.

If your google-fu is sufficient you will find a video (originally shot in those pre-video days on 8 mm film) of the bridge in the minutes before its final collapse. And there is a dog out there, stranded between the oscillating waves of asphalt, not quite as smart as a human in the manner of plotting his departure.

WE ARE THE DOG ON THE BRIDGE.

And that is what is so great about the internet. It enables pompous blowhards to connect with other pompous blowhards in a vast circle jerk of pomposity

not even half of the story (none / 1) (#89)
by Liar on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:52:46 PM EST

if you want to look at symbolism, remember that it was rebuilt and is one of the longest suspension bridges in the U.S.

We could look at it as Christians do the cross, as the exact opposite symbol from death, but of rebirth.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
So when do we get the new spiffy rebuilt K5? $ (none / 1) (#91)
by localroger on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:55:02 PM EST



And that is what is so great about the internet. It enables pompous blowhards to connect with other pompous blowhards in a vast circle jerk of pomposity
[ Parent ]
hopefully not after we get crucified (2.00 / 2) (#92)
by Liar on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:04:41 PM EST

but stories like this are a start.

Register our interest in not just getting rid of trolls, but in improving the entire K5 experience. It's also important to be willing to do the effort that goes along with that. Get Rusty's buy-in. Develop a plan. Code if rusty is unavailable for it. Implement. Pray to the FSM that the thing holds up. Re-evaluate. Rinse. Wash. Repeat.

I think this can be a very positive thing for the site and for the many members of this community who--like you--don't like what the trolls have done with K5 but do not have the authority to do anything about it. So, let's rally around Psychologist's standard, begin the dialog and get the ball rolling.

I for one am tired of the cynicism. IAWTP.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
OK, as you can guess I've been behind this... (2.87 / 8) (#96)
by localroger on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:36:52 PM EST

...for awhile.

It's Rusty's site. He can do what he wants with it, including letting it run itself into the ground. I think that awhile back -- possibly before the whole CMF thing -- he decided this was an experiment that had to run its course. And what with all that blown over it's back to the original plan, let's see how this little Lord of the Flies experiment pans out.

The thing I would say to him if, for example, I was visiting Maine and having a beer with him, is that K5 still has an incredible and hard to calculate value. That value is diminishing surely, but even DIARIES here still get massive google-fu, and the opportunity to get published and then noticed bypassing the usual gateways does not really exist elsewhere.

I think his experiment has run its course, and it's time to extract the remaining value out of the site. But it's his baby, and his decision to make.

And that is what is so great about the internet. It enables pompous blowhards to connect with other pompous blowhards in a vast circle jerk of pomposity
[ Parent ]

Try asking on alt.second-coming.real.soon.now (none / 1) (#191)
by Just this guy on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:52:12 PM EST



[ Parent ]
+1FP (2.25 / 4) (#93)
by tsunami on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:09:54 PM EST

i liked lildebbie's comment the best but it was all pretty funny


--------------
I also saw a madman crazily pumping this polygon thing to roughly the same timing as a functional wank. - A Trolled An Anonymised Englishman
the purpose of trolls are many (2.25 / 4) (#95)
by yellow shark on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:22:22 PM EST

but a majority of trolls, and not just at k5, have one purpose and that is to run off users and eventually destroy a site. It's an old technique and for the most part it is quite successful. A good example is NIWS and all his dupes.

In that regard, the trolls here have been largely successful. Intelligent, snarky comments are clever and can be intelligent. For the most part at K5 they are all too often just plain stupid and lacking anything creative or are worth even reading.

no. you see purposeful design (2.70 / 10) (#114)
by circletimessquare on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:20:27 AM EST

when really it is just losers with poor social skills trying to be themselves

what drives them is their anxiety to be a part of something, but they don't know how, they don't even know that that is what they want, and they wind up destroying whatever they are trying to be part of, out of simple misaligned social skills

it takes serious effort to troll like NIWS or chlorus. it is not done out of some nefarious scheme. it is done out of a genuine desire to connect. the tragedy of course, is that their social selves are so misaligned that they can only destroy. it's sad really. where you see great power to destroy is really a sad character who has no fucking clue how to relate to other people and is trying hard to do so, not even aware that that is what he really needs. so he settles on what he actually achieves: destruction. out of a simple need to have some sort of meaning in his life, no matter how sad, he embraces that identity, and wears it with pride, because everyone needs meaning and pride, somehow

kind of like a guy with bad BO and erectile dysfunction trying to make it with a woman. his desperation and desire is real, but his efforts just wind up driving away all the women. the tragedy is when he doesn't even know what he is doing wrong, and he sees all the women running away, and in the poverty of his soul and desperate need to find meaning, any meaning, he convinces himself the women run away from his great virility. so he redoubles his efforts and begins to take joy in repulsing others, and embraces that as his identity

human psychodynamics is a fucked up thing


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

yeah and sadly (2.00 / 3) (#119)
by yellow shark on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:35:43 AM EST

 you are correct.

[ Parent ]
racists are evil (none / 0) (#263)
by kbudha on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:58:55 PM EST

" where you see great power to destroy is really a sad character"

You're relating internet trolls to Lex Luther?

Seriously dude, stop trying to socially analyze it.
.

[ Parent ]

stop trying to socially analyze (none / 0) (#265)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:59:56 PM EST

a social issue?

(scratches head)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

internet trolls are a relevant social issue (none / 0) (#270)
by kbudha on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:05:23 PM EST

good luck on getting that fed grant for the upcoming study

[ Parent ]
what? (none / 0) (#278)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:32:51 PM EST

why do you think what is being discussed here is relevant? who said i thought it was relevant?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
-1, YFI (big) (3.00 / 4) (#97)
by nostalgiphile on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:42:56 PM EST

And the main reason is that you don't seem to know if you're addressing us kurons or rusty personally--i.e., unclear whether this is an appeal to our better sensibilities or to rusty for a more strict enforcement of ToS. Summary: muddled, wrong, moralistic, and poorly written.

-1, discourage, YHBT; also, I'd gladly give you $5 to leave or stfu.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler

i'd like to say something.... (2.85 / 14) (#98)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:04:55 PM EST

errr... umm.
well ok, i don't know if this story is a troll. if it is a troll, it's a pretty good one in that it got discussion rolling.

but i'd like to imagine for a moment that it isn't. and "work" from there.  

i've told you people before that i don't feel i truly belong here; i know next to nothing about technology, i'm older than most all of you if not all of you, i'm the opposite sex from most of you, i wouldn't even pretend to be as smart or as knowledgeable as most of you about anything at all (except i know i know more about the public school system in the us than lil debbie,) i'm not as articulate as most of you.  BUT...

i enjoy this site. it makes me laugh and it makes me think,  honest to pete- sometimes it keeps me informed and educated about stuff i'd never even think to look up, and very often it distracts me from the dullness of my real life, and it gives me people to communicate with when i'm feeling lonely. in addition, i've read some really outstanding writing on here. really outstanding. i also like that i've talked to people on here that live all the way around the world from me (hi livus!)  and well, i just like some of you.

at the same time, very often when i come on here, my sensibilities are offended. i don't like the racist banter or the sexist banter in particular.

but i do wonder what would happen if we were censored. if we had to live with the rules of the real world?  what would we become then?  would we lose the humor and irreverence? i don't know.

i also have worried about the 5 dollar admittance fee- if that hasn't stopped some really interesting people from stopping by and commenting or contributing.  i know that if i weren't already "in" i'd have said "meh" and passed it by, not wanting to send money to people i don't really know.  but i have to be honest and say that i'm glad that certain people are kept out by this.

i also believe that it's ridiculous to ask rusty to be here all the time.  i think sometimes he must think "my god, what have i done?"  and has to be looking for the nearest exit.  

so, as per usual, i don't really have any answers, but i just wanted to weigh in.  all 105 lbs of me.
i don't want this site to devolve any further i guess.  but i don't want to lose the spirit of it either.  hopefully all you smart kurons can come up with something to help improve things.  
the artist formerly known as wamps

There is a space between... (2.75 / 4) (#100)
by localroger on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:17:32 PM EST

"the rules of the real world" and what is going on here. K5 can survive if it shoots that gap. There needs to be not so much censorshop (though that's what it would technically be) as admonishment. But it needs to be 24/7 and for that the site has to be popular enough (YOU MEAN IT ISN'T?) to attract enough people willing to do moderator duty 24/7. And there needs to be a clearly spelled out and thought out policy about what is OK and what is not OK, and the 24/7 moderators need to be on board with it.

And that is what is so great about the internet. It enables pompous blowhards to connect with other pompous blowhards in a vast circle jerk of pomposity
[ Parent ]
I hate to say it (none / 0) (#104)
by ray eckson on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:52:22 PM EST

but I agree with localroger

/me looks for the winchester


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

but ray- (none / 1) (#106)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:10:00 PM EST

you do realize that you would be admonished on a regular basis, right?

[ Parent ]
I'd be totally fucked (none / 1) (#127)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:44:03 AM EST

and it would either produce an insta-ban, or convert me back to the earnest young lefty-blogger that I was when I first joined k5.

don't believe me?  try /user/creativedissonance/stories


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

oh i know all (none / 1) (#172)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:08:38 PM EST

about you and your descent.

[ Parent ]
its a common pattern (none / 0) (#173)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:10:28 PM EST

I can't say I understand what you get out of being here, though.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
because it isn't here- (2.33 / 3) (#176)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:27:11 PM EST

you know?
i have no responsibilities at k5. i have no real worries here at k5. it's not the same old views/opinions/thoughts i see and hear around here.  i don't have to play any social game really. i don't have to worry about anyone hitting on me except as a joke. i can pretty much say whatever i want when i can't at home.  (and i can get away with it, because i'm "sedate" next to the rest of you)

no kidding.  if you promise not to laugh i'll tell you something. (ok, go ahead laugh- i did) a friend of mine recently suffered a terrible loss (death of a child) in her life.  and she goes in to talk to a therapist.  and the therapist asks her who she has in her life that she feels is part of a support system for her.  and she tells the therapist "well mostly helpful to me has been wamps"  (except she called me by my real name) and the therapist (who i barely know) says "oh, i know her, she's great, she's a really respected member of the community."  
and my friend, she appropriately cracked up laughing at that.  but the point is that at home- i'm sort of locked into a "persona" that i don't really feel and i'm not really.  but i have to play the role to be able to effectively do my job. here, i can just be a nutjob. no one cares.  

[ Parent ]

I hear that (none / 0) (#177)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:28:47 PM EST

there is a distinct feeling of relief when you take the internal editor offline and just let it rip.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
heck ray (none / 1) (#178)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:14:35 PM EST

that was a real human sentiment.  

[ Parent ]
what can I say wamps (none / 0) (#179)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:15:41 PM EST

I'm not just a singularity of rage.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
that's what i always say- (none / 1) (#180)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:20:14 PM EST

"scratch a ball of rage and you get a human."

[ Parent ]
Hmm (2.00 / 2) (#185)
by psychologist on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:36:33 PM EST

I scratch my two balls of rage several times a day, never got no human dropping out yet.

[ Parent ]
epiditimitis is not (none / 1) (#189)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:41:35 PM EST

the same thing as rage.

[ Parent ]
when faced with a psychologist comment (none / 0) (#201)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:49:56 PM EST

zero, THEN reply.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
very rarely (none / 1) (#203)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:57:51 PM EST

do i voluntarily deal with numbers. i hate them.

[ Parent ]
your and my reasons for coming here are similar (none / 0) (#202)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:55:16 PM EST

only our methods differ


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
yeah? (2.00 / 2) (#204)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:00:46 PM EST



[ Parent ]
popularity (2.00 / 2) (#150)
by Liar on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:24:26 AM EST

I agree wholeheartedly, but I think you're banking an improvement on the effects rather than the cause. The cause of popularity is worthwhile content. The cause of worthwhile content is either money (not going to happen) or a worthwhile audience. Clean up the audience, you have a shot at articles, and therefore you have a shot at popularity, and then you have a chance for constant more professional moderation.

Like gardening, weeding is best introduced early and often. It's painful when you spend years between weedings.

We're actually a small enough site nowadays that it doesn't require a full time moderator. Even a part time moderator who commits to checking in twice a week is enough, though I'd prefer a process be introduced that let's the community manage itself--that has the potential for scaling more easily. Finding volunteers for a thankless task is tough.

I think Rusty had it right earlier on. Let the community police the community. One of the worst turns was the ability to view hidden comments because inevitably, everyone turned on the ability to view hidden comments. A comment that ordinarily would have died continued to have life and the community moved on. This meant there was finally no consequence for anything until a user was banned and so there was even less self-moderation. Rusty should have trusted his users more and let them send those comments to a place where the comment itself needed to be redeemed.

Now, the problem is worse, but the solution is much the same: reintroduce meaningful moderation and trust the users.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
huh (none / 1) (#108)
by eavier on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:41:05 PM EST

i didn't realise this was you wamps.

Whatever you do, don't take it into your house. It's probably full of Greeks. - Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi

Ufology Doktor in da house

[ Parent ]
sup e hoa (none / 1) (#109)
by livus on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:47:21 PM EST

how's life treating ya

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
oh fine thanks dok (2.50 / 2) (#118)
by eavier on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:29:37 AM EST

Living in Mission Bay. Working in St George's Bay Rd. Living the dream. Stealing from the man. Drinking his cream.

You?

Whatever you do, don't take it into your house. It's probably full of Greeks. - Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi

Ufology Doktor in da house

[ Parent ]

You're drinking Man Cream eh? (none / 1) (#122)
by livus on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:43:25 AM EST

As for me, too many things, not enough time.

Not enjoying this effing weather but, and plotting my escape from it later this winter. NZ is too small:  just realised I've actually been inside that glorified warehouse you work in.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

I'd thought you'd seize on that statement (2.00 / 2) (#123)
by eavier on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:58:39 AM EST

Textile Centre or Axis Building? I'm not at Saatchi and Saatchi.

Where you off to? And is it permanent?

Whatever you do, don't take it into your house. It's probably full of Greeks. - Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi

Ufology Doktor in da house

[ Parent ]

I know you're not at Saatchi (2.00 / 2) (#152)
by livus on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:57:38 AM EST

drinking Kevin's Man Cream would be a step back wouldn't it, and you're a forward thinking guy.

Nothing's permanent at the moment. Nah just a short trip.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

stalker (2.50 / 2) (#205)
by eavier on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:03:37 PM EST

I'm off for six weeks myself. gf hasn't seen Europe, bless her cotton socks. late Aug - early oct - can't friggin wait.

Whatever you do, don't take it into your house. It's probably full of Greeks. - Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi

Ufology Doktor in da house

[ Parent ]
i know you didn't (none / 1) (#113)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:16:12 AM EST

i think you were the last to know.

[ Parent ]
sounds about right (none / 1) (#117)
by eavier on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:26:29 AM EST

well its nice that i now know you're back.

Cue the chit chat.

Whatever you do, don't take it into your house. It's probably full of Greeks. - Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi

Ufology Doktor in da house

[ Parent ]

well i couldn't chit (2.50 / 2) (#174)
by nononoitaintmebabe on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:19:00 PM EST

chat last night anymore.  i needed my rest.
and right now i think i'm going to go out and buy a new lawn chair.

[ Parent ]
fair enough [nt] (none / 1) (#206)
by eavier on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:09:02 PM EST



Whatever you do, don't take it into your house. It's probably full of Greeks. - Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi

Ufology Doktor in da house

[ Parent ]
agreed (2.60 / 5) (#116)
by nostalgiphile on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:25:36 AM EST

point is, site it's geared toward provacative discussions and comments, so it makes no sense to demand that it be politically correct and "sensitive" and all that. That'd just make it the tool of dickless admins or a group of people everyone was scared to offend (as, for example, it is at HuSi and Dailykos, I'm told). To rusty and aphrael's (the only admin I even occassionaly see around here) credit, k5 has been allowed to grow into something better.

Problem is, with a $5 closed registration site there's always the risk that, unsupervised, it will be dominated by a minority of idiotic active posters who crapflood nonsense no one wants to read. You can say, "well, then don't read it if it pisses you off," but if this makes up 75% of the content then what? Petition the cool people with interesting things to say to write more? My own humble suggestions in that regard failed, per the usual, had zero impact, and use of queue is still decreasing.

All rusty really needs to do is find some dispassionate, fairly passive admins to only ban ToS violators and promote the site to more cool people. Otherwise, make it even more democratic and let people "vote yes/no to ban user X for 1 month?" as they do on some gaming servers.

HAND wamps!

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]

huh (2.50 / 2) (#120)
by eavier on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:35:50 AM EST

yeah I liked that story.

One way to bring new life into the site, but ultimately lower the IQ, would be to make it 'popular'.

Simply seeding on a good morning type show would be enough. It'd give the site a second life, but would ultimately change it completely. You'd get Mandy's everywhere, documenting the agony they were going through over their upcoming cheer leader try outs. Even Mr Dissonance would find that hard to deal with.

Whatever you do, don't take it into your house. It's probably full of Greeks. - Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi

Ufology Doktor in da house

[ Parent ]

not popular (3.00 / 2) (#121)
by nostalgiphile on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:41:36 AM EST

but more populous.

Those Mandys can be vetted and hazed.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]

close but not quite the point, I think (3.00 / 2) (#151)
by Liar on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:52:42 AM EST

The point isn't toward developing provocative discussions and comments. I think that is a worthwhile side effect.

Submitted stories are the lifeblood of this site.

K5 is only as good as the stories submitted to the queue. The front page is what people see when they first come to this site. A diary with the same content doesn't get as much editorialism, review, and commentary. Diaries exist for a day or a few hours depending on whether there's a meme running in the headline--even at its best K5 managed only a handful of new FPs a day so a story had a much longer life.

Discussion sites only need 8 sentences at most to be called a story and those can kick off worthwhile discussions. But, by K5 standards, those are MLP at best. K5 expects more from its submissions and that is all the difference.

That's why I think it's important to reign in the trolls. People don't post stories because they don't want their precious gems that took hours or days to write to compete with "JIEWS DID WTC LOL!"

So, if you're looking for quality discussions, you need something of quality to discuss. Trolls inhibit that.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
yes, they do inhibit (none / 1) (#175)
by nostalgiphile on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:27:08 PM EST

but only when the user base is reduced to a handful of exclusive users. Disruptive trolls were never able to be a major factor when open registration was...open and there were more users, but now they are because the user base is dwindling and the assholes can easily take over from within if the door is closed and it seems (to outsiders) that everyone inside really is a dick who will [0] all your comments and type innumerable 1-line inanities.

Otherwise, yeah, what you said.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]

You can't force the discourse you want, (2.88 / 9) (#115)
by eavier on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:22:46 AM EST

to miraculously appear. It doesn't work like that.

The people that are still here, are the core of who K5 is. If you think everyone here are rascist trolls, then thats your opinion. But as a heads up, you're the only one who's taking the site as something far more serious that what it actually is.

I don't like rascism, but taking away that diatribe would be censorship. If something offends you, stop reading it. Go elsewhere. Evicting people because they don't conform to your idea of what a community is frankly, bordering on bigotry.

Yes its now small and packed with a tightly knit bunch of completely obnoxious people, but thats not a bad thing. At least you know where to go if you feel like being textually raped. And to be honest, the conversation is still probably intellectually above what your idiot work mates are discussing right now anyway.

Taking all the trolls out of the equation would empty this city. And ultimately close K5 down. Is that what you want?

Kuro5hin as a product and its following the innovation adoption curve to the letter. It started small in 1999, peaked user wise in 2003/4, started dropping off around about the time I got here in late 2005, leaving us where we are today.

A sandbox. Throw some sand or please, STFU.

Whatever you do, don't take it into your house. It's probably full of Greeks. - Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi

Ufology Doktor in da house

'value based management' my lilly white ass (none / 0) (#131)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:47:59 AM EST




wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
the reason it followed the curve (none / 1) (#153)
by lostincali on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:50:01 AM EST

was because the owner completely stopped innovating (or even maintaining)

"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."
[ Parent ]

If I may... (none / 0) (#407)
by dhk on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:51:49 AM EST

...just put my 5 cents in:
There was a time when I frequently logged in and read quite a lot, out of couriosity, to learn new things, to find out what the guys in the rest of the world think and - occasionally - have some fun. I didn't comment a lot (next to nothing, to be exact) due to my not being a native speaker.

However, my interest dropped when I was faced with more than a healthy number of comments that were nonsense, insulting or downright racistic. I'm pleased to see that this has now become something that is openly discussed. So, now for the promised 5 cents:
Cent 1: "If you think everyone here are rascist trolls" That was not wad had been said. Exaggeration doesn't help anybody.

Cent 2: "you're the only one who's taking the site as something far more serious that what it actually is." Firstly, this is wrong. How should you know? There are - like me - a lot of guys out there having an opinion but not voicing it here. Anyhow, your remark is odd, because he has a vision of what this place could or should be, not what it is. You surely recognized this.

Cent 3: "If something offends you, stop reading it." That'S impossible. If I read through a thread and stumble several times over unneccessary insults (or worse) then I have already read them. Period. Should I stop reading the entire thread? Why?

Cent 4: "Go elsewhere" Why? Why not trying to change things that bother you? That is one of the ground laws of a free society, rite?

Cent 5: "Taking all the trolls out of the equation would empty this city." Is that more than a wild guess? How do you know? It would be more quit, but wouldn't that be a good thing, for a change, if the quality of the discussion would go up? Wouldn't it at least be worth to try it? (I guess there are zillions of communities out there where your occasional desire to be "textually raped" is fulfilled with both more promptness and accuracy).
- please forgive my bad english, I'm not a native speaker
[ Parent ]
I hope for the day... (3.00 / 2) (#124)
by The Amazing Idiot on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:29:55 AM EST

When K5 will have neat and interesting content it once had. I remember that before, k5 was the "dark side" of the internet posting howtos on taboo topics cause that was the thing to do.

No matter how disgusting things might have become, they were allowed because rusty supported letting the community vet the works. For quite a while (around 04) it worked.

Now, k5 is a cesspool of racist hatred and spite. I sort of expected this but not that soon.I guess I might as well klerck my account but I have this hope that rusty will find some way to turn this around.. I hope.

post your pw (none / 0) (#133)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:48:31 AM EST

I'll do a better you than you ever could


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
Oh, I see. (none / 1) (#163)
by The Amazing Idiot on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:20:59 PM EST

Going to ressurect the rustina troll, arent ya?

Id rather my account rest in peace by deletion than hand it over to you, of all people.

[ Parent ]

rustina is old news (none / 0) (#166)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:29:28 PM EST

get with the 21st century chap


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
In the worst case scenario (1.50 / 6) (#126)
by psychologist on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:31:00 AM EST

If Rusty refuses to do anything at all about this site, I suggest we do the following:

We independently create a greasemonkey script where we collaboratively agree on the features that we can add that will help us recreate this site.

Or if we need changes to scoop to help K5, we do this with javascript patches, so we don't have to hack through old crusty perl.

Things like Bans can easily be attained in greasemonkey. What else?

omfg (1.50 / 1) (#135)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:49:43 AM EST

lol @ the stupid


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
You call /me/ a racist, but talk of greasemonkeys€ (none / 1) (#183)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:29:41 PM EST


--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
so in ur set of rules (2.40 / 5) (#129)
by Jobst of Moravia on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:44:52 AM EST

where does wounding and raping the wounds of minorities fall?

---
              __
   .,-;-;-,. /'_\ ---Did this Negro say "Street Moor"?
 _/_/_/_|_\_\) /
'-<_><_><_><_>=\
 `/_/====/_/-'\_\
  ""     ""    ""

HAWT (3.00 / 1) (#136)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:50:13 AM EST

FAPPING


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
+1FP: document the newbie cycle (1.20 / 5) (#138)
by loteck on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:33:59 AM EST

when this gets front page and the author and his supporters realize that exactly fuck all will ever come of any suggestion that is made for sweeping changes to the way this site runs or is administered, they will that much more quickly join the exact group that they are raging against.

this is how it has been. this is how it is. this is how it will always be. it doesn't say so in the site logo, but it is invisibly there in that thin line between the blue and the text.

rage, motherfuckers, and learn. as is noted above, nobody mistakes this kind of shit for anything except for the dictatorial powergrab that it is. hopefully all you faggots fuck off to husi, pronto. i prefer my k5 as raw as possible, and i already have one admin who has shown a penchant for doing whatever the fuck he wants despite community opinion.
--
"You're in tune to the musical sound of loteck hi-fi, the musical sound that moves right round. Keep on moving ya'll." -Mylakovich
"WHAT AN ETERNAL MOBIUS STRIP OF FELLATIATIC BANALITY THIS IS." -Harry B Otch

Much as I have contributed to... (2.80 / 5) (#143)
by Psycho Dave on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:31:10 AM EST

...the decline of this site, I'm afraid I agree with psychologist. The diary section seems to resemble Stormfront.org more and more lately.

The problem is, where do we draw the line at politically incorrect discourse (which I encourage) vs. stuff that is just noxious and hateful. I remember there was a poll on whether Baldrson should  be anonymized because he name checked Mein Kampf (the measure didn't pass and Mr. Bowery eventually just drifted off on his own accord). Nowadays, he's probably be considered one of the more intelligent posters here.

I'm surprised the trolls haven't adapted their tactics, since trolling used to be a glorious thing here. In the pre-5bux era, I had plenty of folks calling for me to be hung/shot/arrested for my posts. Now, everybody is just playing to the peanut gallery.

Not that I think K5 should ever completely get rid of trolling, but it should be balanced with interesting, legitimate content. Not only could that draw more bites for the trolls, but it might encourage me to spend more than ten minutes a day perusing this site.

I don't know if you read Mr Bowery's writing, (2.00 / 2) (#190)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:43:31 PM EST

but he was probably in the top 10 most intelligent and learned people on this here site. Sure, many of his opinions were appalling, but at least he contributed to some very interesting and challenging discourse. More than can be said of the slur-filled diaries out there.

And for the record, you, sir, are in my opinion of the lowest kind of troll here. I truly believe anyone who takes joy in watching the shit you post here a broken person.

--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
agrees w/1 disagrees w/2 (none / 1) (#221)
by nostalgiphile on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:20:33 AM EST

  1. actually, Baldrson was a hoot, and I fondly recall the times he'd argue with me about Sun Yat-sen and Chiang Kai-shek (Chinese fascism generally). And to be honest, I miss him more than I miss Egil and LJ.

  2. you're a foreigner so you can't understand how awesome PoopyPeanutz is. On a related note, if you're gonna try to continue to maintain the lie that you're an alpha male, you should really try to learn some asian languages, bub. Makes lookin for japapr0n a lot easier.


"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
agree (none / 1) (#226)
by it certainly is on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:08:15 AM EST

ひゃくにじゅうセンチ !!!エッチカップ! !!

kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
[ Parent ]

Poopy and The Winner was good, videos not /nt (none / 1) (#234)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:42:46 PM EST


--
It's hard to be humble when even Mr Bigballs rates me as #1 Kuro5hit.


[ Parent ]
ah man (none / 1) (#144)
by taste on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:32:19 AM EST

been ages since i last came back here and everything and everyone's still so homely and chumly and the trolls are still being discussed, rusty is still experimenting on stuff and k5 is still trying to figure itself out. love this place.

the only thing missing so far seems to be localroger and some fic+1on in the queue. hmm

you missed the bloody miscarriage (none / 0) (#157)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:24:21 AM EST


which was pr0nfest 08


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
How can we be sure about you? (1.50 / 2) (#146)
by mirleid on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:52:21 AM EST

Soon it was impossible to distinguish where trollery stopped and discussion started.
Voting for this story is easy. This is either
  • An elaborate, self-referential troll, in the best K5 tradition.
  • A heartfelt, well meaning plea for the return of a site where you can read interesting stuff, mixed with the occasional vitriolic flamewar.
In either case, +1FP.

Chickens don't give milk
+1FP: MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE (2.50 / 4) (#147)
by bodza on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:27:44 AM EST

I 3'ed Chlorus because he showed your sanctimonious travel log for what it was. Thinking you understand a situation because you visited it once. loteck owned you as well

Your diary reminded me of people I knew who used to visit South Africa during the apartheid years and come back spouting about how "apartheid was really the best thing for the blacks" and how ungrateful they were for all that was being done for them.

But congratulations on the 140+ comment meta-wank. Good luck with your GreaseMonkey script. You should call it Husi.js

Ask not for whom the troll trolls. He trolls for you
--
"Civilization will not attain to its perfection until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest." - Émile Zola

+1, I support your war of terror (2.50 / 2) (#148)
by Hiphopopotamus on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:49:55 AM EST

Rid the site of free thought, even when I despise the ideas? Never. I'm voting your lame story up, for instance!
_________________

I'm In LOVE!

I have a new suggestion (Vote up if you agree) (1.28 / 7) (#155)
by psychologist on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:11:17 AM EST

I think we need a court. Basically, we create an account called "Judge", and give this account to one of the well known users like localroger or MichaelCrawford or any other person who has been posting here for a long time, and has posted halfway reasonable shit.

The judge creates a diary where abuses of the current week can be posted into. The abuses by users are posted and are discussed. On friday, a front page meta "court case" is posted to the sidebar by the judge where he brings up any users who are misbehaving in front of the community. These users can then be defended or attacked by the community, and at the end of the day, a consensus by all users is reached as to if this user is to be removed from the site or not. If so, then the Judge flags this user to Rusty for deletion, making a list of why this user should be deleted. Rusty can veto this, but in most cases, he should then proceed to delete the user.

The judge then has to pick a volunteer and send him the password of the account. This new user will then be judge in the following week. No user can ever be judge twice.

Yes, it's an experiment. Yes, it may go wrong. But you know what rusty - this site is a playground! This site has always been a progressive experiment, and do not let it stagnate. Let's try something like that - all that needs to be done is create a new account - the users will organise the rest. Give us this possibility of policing ourselves. This way, people will not get hidden because they post unpopular opinions as would happen if an algorithm decides that the user should be deleted. Deletion will only happen when people are loud enough to actually rile up enough people who want them out of the site.

Also, this new approach to community policing would gather attention from outside. What is there to lose? If it goes wrong, you just delete the judge account and declare the experiment done.

omfg rofl (none / 0) (#156)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:19:42 AM EST

(lol @ the stupid)^2


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
I assume you have $5 (none / 1) (#169)
by Sgt York on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:55:21 PM EST

Go for it. Anyone riled up enough by the any of the reported and discussed offenses files an abuse report. If it works, then by all means; keep it going. You go ahead and be judge #1, you've been around long enough.

This is K5. If you want something done, you do it yourself. This kind of thing can be done within the framework of the site as it currently exists, provided enough of the userbase supports it and participates in it.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

lol (none / 0) (#170)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:58:03 PM EST

n1


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
I don't have $5 (none / 1) (#171)
by psychologist on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:00:19 PM EST

Read my diary where I spoke about being very poor.

[ Parent ]
SO POOR THAT YOU HAVE A NET CONNECTION (none / 0) (#253)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:57:39 PM EST

AND TIME TO WASTE ON THIS DRIVEL

HOW CONVINCING


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

IGTT 8/10 (none / 1) (#159)
by Watersplash on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:56:35 AM EST

That is all.

okay (1.50 / 2) (#184)
by Perianwyr on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:36:08 PM EST

so yeah this shit was over a long time ago

Kill some idiots (2.50 / 4) (#192)
by onix on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:57:11 PM EST

There was a reason why in the past the most intelligent contributors to this site generally argued in defense of trolls. It's because the noise was worth putting up with for the entertainment.

Where are those people today? I don't see a single creative or amusing argument for trolls in any of the responses posted here so far. Even MotorMachineMercenary sounds like someone who's come to see this place as just another wall to piss up: "I write my intellectual shit elsewhere, as this cesspool is not worth it." Says it all, really.

The reason you don't see any interesting arguments for trolls anymore is because all the interesting trolls left. What's here today isn't even offensive. It's just boring. Motherfuckingcuntcockpissniggerassfistmonkeytits. I'm mean, jesus, it's not rocket science.

Charging for accounts isn't pointless. Scarcity can change behavior. But there's no scarcity until it costs something. Charging for accounts is pointless only if you never make people pay. Rusty, if you're not willing to implement the policy then why did you introduce it? Either start killing idiots or do the patient a favor and turn the life-support off.



---
I'm interested in certain of your thoughts. - medham
we have met the enemy... (none / 1) (#207)
by mikelist on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 05:11:38 PM EST

...and he is us.

a troll is a deliberate stance that has less to do with intelligence and character than one might imagine.

 

you don't get it (2.83 / 6) (#210)
by sllort on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 06:48:05 PM EST

it was explained that stories and comments should be changed to approval voting and time out. common sense was ignored. digg did it instead and made billions of dollars. everyone's gone but the people who have nowhere else to go.

don't get me wrong, it's fun to keep an eye open, point and laugh. but it's a graveyard now. let it go.
--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.

YHBT. (2.50 / 4) (#211)
by the77x42 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 07:54:00 PM EST

Seriously though, some of the troll comments are funny. I think a much more peaceful approach is something that has been discussed time and time again, and that is simply giving the user the option to ignore other users.


"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

your sig just sent me down the rabbit hole (none / 0) (#212)
by ray eckson on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:14:37 PM EST

it started with the indubitable quote, and ended up with me listening to folk metal clips on wikipedia.  truly, the internet is a bizarre place.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
welcome to my work day. (none / 1) (#218)
by the77x42 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:17:01 PM EST




"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

[ Parent ]
+1 (3.00 / 2) (#213)
by destroyallofit on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:42:51 PM EST

I BLAME THE OUSTER OF TEX  BIGBALLS!

^for serious.

Tex ousted himself (1.33 / 3) (#214)
by localroger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:44:58 PM EST

Then came crawling back like a whiny little bitch begging for the password he'd randomized, then he slunk away again.

And that is what is so great about the internet. It enables pompous blowhards to connect with other pompous blowhards in a vast circle jerk of pomposity
[ Parent ]
CAUSE OF YUO (none / 1) (#215)
by destroyallofit on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:47:31 PM EST

Bastart.

[ Parent ]
Huh? I don't think so. (3.00 / 2) (#217)
by localroger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:53:57 PM EST

Tex ousted himself first time because he claimed he needed to pay more attention to work. After crawling back, I think he slunk off because the place just isn't as interesting any more.

Tex used to goad me but with nothing like say the white-hot hatred the hobo spews. I'd say probably Tex is gone for the very reason the psychologist posted this article -- this isn't the kuro5hin that he knew any more.

And that is what is so great about the internet. It enables pompous blowhards to connect with other pompous blowhards in a vast circle jerk of pomposity
[ Parent ]

you assume.. (none / 1) (#219)
by undermyne on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:20:09 AM EST

that he isn't lurking or posting with a new account.

ray eckson - "nigger eggs are all yolk, you racist fuck"
[ Parent ]
I don't believe he is (1.50 / 1) (#227)
by localroger on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:37:35 AM EST

Tex's dupes were always pretty obvious.

And that is what is so great about the internet. It enables pompous blowhards to connect with other pompous blowhards in a vast circle jerk of pomposity
[ Parent ]
Let me blame you. (none / 1) (#220)
by destroyallofit on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:24:23 AM EST

Bitterness is pretty much all I have.

[ Parent ]
yes (none / 1) (#216)
by achievingfluidity on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:52:01 PM EST

and he had plenty of chances.

--
ANNOY A LIBERAL USE FACTS AND LOGIC


[ Parent ]

That's democracy for ya (none / 1) (#223)
by buford on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:52:54 AM EST

You said you'd give us democracy, then let this place be democratic. We want to clean up, you gave us the guns, now for heavens sake, supply us with the bullets and we're ready to ride and drive those damn fools out.

Largest group decides it doesn't like some minority, votes to kill it.

Everyone's opinion is equally valid, even those you call trolls.

if a man zeros you, he is a spastic with the scroll wheel, and should be pitied.

everything has a limit, for tolerance that limit (2.40 / 5) (#231)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:45:23 AM EST

is on tolerating the intolerant

it is morally and logically consistent with the idea of democracy to exclude from a conversation those who wish to destroy a conversation

for example, if there were a party in a democracy running for government on the platform that democracy should be replaced with theocracy/ fascism/ autocracy/ etc., it is entirely fair and reasonable and good to censor and outlaw that party

what is the point of allowing a voice to those who have made it extremely clear they wish to destroy you? what purpose is served?

the idea of tolerance does not extend to tolerating the intolerant. in fact, tolerating the intolerant is a form of intolerance


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

bullshit (none / 1) (#233)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:25:46 PM EST

ever heard of

"I may disagree with what you say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it?"

fucking facist


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

nah, not a fascist, a realist (1.33 / 3) (#236)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:49:28 PM EST

it is in fact in the name of fighting fascism i say what i say

you on the other hand are a fundamentalist: you hew to an absolute interpretation of a concept. in this particular case, free speech

you have to understand though that in the real world, everything, EVERYTHING, has a limit. and that you do damage, you create suffering, when you take a concept and you adhere to it idealistically and naively to absurd extremes

you really can't in your mind think of an example of speech that must be censored? IN THE NAME OF promoting free speech

in the same way, someone campaigning in a democracy for the destruction of democracy deserves to be stopped. don't you understand the implications?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

and who should be the arbiter of definitions (none / 1) (#237)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:59:44 PM EST

as for what should and should not be permitted?

you?

me?

who do you want to hand your freedoms to, cts?

I will serve no master.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

well, gee, i dunno (2.00 / 2) (#245)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:45:30 PM EST

i think maybe you take someone at their word

so if someone says "i intend to postpone the next election, we don't need another leader", something that say ferdinand marcos did or mugabe, then you pretty much have reason to act against that person

i don't know why you find this concept so threatening or complex. its pretty simple and straightforward: when democracy is stopped, those who stop it must be taken out of power. why is this so controversial complex or threatening in any way? the only people i am threatening are those who threaten democracy. and you act like i'm the one threatening democracy. how the hell does that work in your mind?

i am acting in the name of prserving democracy, and you come at me like i'm going to destroy it. when all i am proposing we destroy are the enemies of democracy

it makes my head spin

pretty weird and spastic of you


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

yes, I get it, you're a facist (none / 1) (#247)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:50:35 PM EST

and pro-totalitarian

the part that is not so credible is your claim to be taken seriously at all.  you're the epitome of internet vapourware.

go find somewhere else to peddle your intellectual dishonesty, I'm not buying.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

so if you protect democracy from fascism (2.00 / 2) (#250)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:53:46 PM EST

you are a fascist

(mind asplodes)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

if you try and turn democracy into facism (none / 1) (#251)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:55:32 PM EST

in the name of saving it, you are a fascist.  yes.

now go play in traffic, little boy, the grownups are talking.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

explain to the little boy: (2.00 / 2) (#255)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:06:18 PM EST

say gw bush says "you know, i'm not ready to leave office in 2009, i think i'll stay until 2020" what does one do?

according to me, you kick the bastard out with physical force if necessary

according to you you do what? write angry letters? have passionate discourse?

so by defying fascists, i am also a fascist?

ok, got it

(shrugs)

but you will excuse me, i will continue thinking what i think in intellectual honesty, and ignore your hyperbole. i honstly believe that sometimes in this world, you need to go to physical force to defend cherished concepts. do you erroneously believe:

  1. that no such threats exist
  2. there is no need to ever use physical force to defend cherished democratic principles

what? what do you believe should be done if gw bush just declares his presidency isn't over? or that things like this never happen in democracies? PUTIN cough MUAGBE cough MARCOS

because that's all you seem to be selling: hyperbole. when what i am selling is calm, reasonable, and warranted

methinks you don't have very much sense of your own values, that nothing you value you ever see the need of defending vigorously. probably becuase you are sheltered, and believe certian facets of your society you haven't seen challenged in your lifetime you think never will be challenged. you're sheltered, pampered, clueless. and i'm the child. ok

i'm sorry if all of this proves too challenging to your vast intellectual superiority to little old me ;-)

xoxoxoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

making it illegal for bush to SAY that: fascist (none / 1) (#267)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:01:43 PM EST

takings steps to prevent him from actually DOING what he says: democratic

surely you could grasp the distinction, if you weren't a shitty little hack.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

wait, what? (none / 1) (#272)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:25:38 PM EST

so bush is going to say that, but he's not going to do that. and if he says that, we shouldn't do anything to prevent him from doing what he says he's going to do

and i'm a shitty little hack?

so if a guy says "i'm going to kill you", walks up to you and points a gun at your head, you won't actually do anything to oppose him physically until there is a bullet in your head?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

there is always a rhetoric/action gap (none / 1) (#275)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:27:58 PM EST

unless you've lived your entire adult life with your eyes willfully closed, you would know that.

but go on with the intellectual dishonesty.  I can't imagine you're flexible enough to be able to change your schtick now.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

yes, there is a rhetoric/ action gap (none / 1) (#279)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:35:43 PM EST

but you make the mistake of thinking that i was only evaluating rhetoric in my formulation of the need to act or not against intolerance. so if there was actually action involved as well, you would agree with me?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
of course, dipshit (none / 1) (#283)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:37:48 PM EST

the only argument I have with you is outlawing the SPEECH.  if someone takes violent action, of course you respond to it.  

what the hell is wrong with you?  can you not read the written word?  oh, I know, you're a shitty troll!


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

poor silly little man ;-) (none / 1) (#285)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:41:04 PM EST

http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2008/4/15/143539/481/231#231

where am i limiting my judgment to only speech?

that's what you reacted to. your anger at me is based on your inability to properly read what i said, an inserting of an assumption of what i said

now that you realize you misjudged me, i suggest you apologize

but you probably won't. you're blind to your own failings


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you reference your own worst points (none / 1) (#286)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:42:49 PM EST

your words, eat them:

it is morally and logically consistent with the idea of democracy to exclude from a conversation those who wish to destroy a conversation

for example, if there were a party in a democracy running for government on the platform that democracy should be replaced with theocracy/ fascism/ autocracy/ etc., it is entirely fair and reasonable and good to censor and outlaw that party

what is the point of allowing a voice to those who have made it extremely clear they wish to destroy you? what purpose is served?

idiot.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

"those who wish to destroy a conversation (none / 1) (#288)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:05:52 PM EST

i'm sorry? action is not implicit in that, only rhetoric?

(scratches head)

i mean, what world do you live in? let's sidestep godwin for a moment because we are, in fact, talking about fascism. hitler's rise to power in germany: at what point do you move against hitler? accoridng to you, you don't ever move against him

see hitler said many things. you would be correct of course if no actions were ever made on those words. but this is a theoretical distinction, not a real world one. there is no such thing as mountains of violent rehtoric coming from an organization without complementary violent action

now, if that were possible in the real world, you would win this argument. however it is in fact an example of your naivete that you think this theoretical point is important to point out and defend. no, in the real world, if an organization of people spouts mountains of violent rhetoric there is ALWAYS, ALWAYS actual real world violent action. absolutely, 100%, all the time. do you disagree with that point?

are you so naive to think making a distinction here is valid in the real world? between words and actions mutliply stated in a myriad ways thousands of times over years? and you say no action comes from that? ok

that just shows your naivete with history and human nature, it doesn't prove me wrong

there are always ACTIONS concomitant with the intent in the words of a large human organization. you apparently live in some sort of theoretical universe where the action and words can be held separately of a large political organization. this is not an example of your intellecutal superiority to my position, but an example of your naivete

and in fact, in modern germany, nazi hate speech is outright outlawed!

now based on your criteria for criticizing me, that means, according to how you have criticized me, that modern germany is a fascist state. in their effort to fight fascism... they are fascist!? (palm to face). dude: do you believe modern germany is fascist? dude: they outlaw nazi hate speech. i'm asking you to criticize them like you are criticizing me. put your money where your mouth is:

  1. either you are wrong about me
  2. or you think modern germany is fascist

which is it, oh great swami? silly intellectually dishonest me, i can't see ;-P

no, the truth is, you are sheltered. if you grew up in a country that went through something like germany did, you would understand my point. if gw bush took over the country, you bet your bottom dollar after the resulting world war iii, such speech would be grounds for action

because it is obvious, in the REAL world, not your naive theoretical one, that such words by such people don't happen without also action!

and in fact, if germany was operating as i say we should operate, hitler would have been shut down during his rise to power, not AFTER, when millions have died

see? i've learned from history. have you?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

'wish to destroy' (none / 1) (#289)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:08:00 PM EST

oh boy, lets play a little head game.

"I WISH TO DESTROY CTS"

Should this speech be protected?  Should I be hauled off to by the gestapo?

Is there no difference between saying that, and actually TRYING to do it?  Oh, no, of course not.

Silly, silly little boy.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

u think theoretical is more important than real (none / 1) (#291)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:14:19 PM EST

if i am a political organization and i threaten to kill someone

  1. in a thousand different comments
  2. by dozens of different people
  3. over a period of months and years

then there is going to be action. absolutely

do you believe there won't be, that they can or should be thought of separately?

then you are naive and ignorant and sheltered. you think a theoretical is more important than a practical

and in fact, i don't even have to go so far as to go to political organizations, which is the realm i am talking, i can meet you right at your subset: speech by individuals

in fact, according to us law, and the law of most every nation, speech that threatens specific bodily harm to a specific person (rather than nebulous undirected anger) is considered illegal speech and grounds for being arrested

anything else you wish to educate me about today oh great genius? ;-)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

threats of bodily harm are not the issue here (none / 1) (#292)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:15:36 PM EST

you are talking about censoring entire classes of speech simply because you disagree with their politics.  

fascist.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

yes, that is exactly what i am saying (none / 1) (#296)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:22:51 PM EST

because their politics, moron, is exactly what you hate: the limiting of rights and democracy. and when i say i will limit people who ARE going to limit you, not theoretically could, then you group me in with such people

so by defying a murderer, i am a murderer?

how does that work in your mind?

i say "this is a villain who must be opposed"

and you say to me in response "for saying that, you are worse than the villain"

huh?

your cherished "i disagree with you but defend your right to say what you say" is 100% applicable here: i'm talking about that act of defense! duh! are you ok?

thousands of comments
dozens of people
years of persistence

to happen without action also happening, is completely, 100%, unavoidable

do you understand that?

if a political organization says "i am going to remove the second amendment".

it says it for years

dozens of people in the group say it

it says it thousands of times

are oyu saying at that point they aren't going to make real world actions against free speech

you believe that?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

saying you want to do away with the 2nd amendment (none / 1) (#300)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:42:10 PM EST

is protected speech.  wanting to change the constitution is fundamental to democracy.  you don't like HOW they want to change the constitution?  Go fuck yourself!

If a political party can manage to garner enough popular support and elect enough legislators to make their bizarre redactive changes to the constitution law, THEN IT IS THE ESSENCE OF DEMOCRACY IN ACTION!

Don't like it?  Go fuck yourself!  That is what democracy is!


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

now we are getting to the issue ;-) (none / 1) (#304)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:47:26 PM EST

"saying you want to do away with the 2nd amendment is protected speech"

doesn't your mind explode when you say that?

this is what you are saying:

"removing the protection on free speech is free speech"

no. that's like committing suicide in order to live

does it dawn on you yet?

"wanting to change the constitution is fundamental to democracy"

absolutely. doing away with democracy is not fundamental to democracy. get it?

"you don't like HOW they want to change the constitution?"

you can do whatever you want to the constitution. except remove your ability to do whatever you want to the constitution. durrrrrrr

"Go fuck yourself!"

i already have. i'm in this thread, aren't i? ;-P

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you cannot pick and choose (none / 1) (#307)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:50:39 PM EST

if you protect speech, you protect ALL speech, even speech that is inimical to the goals of free speech itself.  To do less is to embrace hypocrisy.

similarly, if you have a democracy, you cannot restrict the ends produced BY that democracy, except through the democratic process itself.  Yes, you could dismantle the three party system.  Yes, you could disband the supreme court.  Yes, you could turn the USA into a strict Catholic theo-monarchy.  

BUT YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS TO ACCOMPLISH IT!


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

my head asplode (none / 1) (#310)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:57:50 PM EST

in your mind there is apparently no conception of a set of choices which ends a democracy. or, rather, there is, but there is nothing you can do about it, no need to protect yourself from that scenario

and furthermore, my recongition of the need to protect a democracy from suicide is the same as murdering a democracy

it makes my head hurt

"BUT YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS TO ACCOMPLISH IT!"

this is your naivete talking. you believe everyone in a democracy is behaving perfectly fair and reasonable all the time. that the democratic process is some sort of master of the laws of nature and physics, and that if anyone steps outside of the democratic process, they get instantly vaporized, or something. no, dude: actual human beings have to do actual actions to reign in those who clearly will go outside the realm of the democratic process. do you dispute this?

in your naivete, you can't seem to fathom that there are people who would just ignore democratic principles

and even MORE amazing, when i say such people exist, and they must be defied, you see ME as the destroyer of democracy

amazing! LOL

dude, here's your favorite quote:

"i disagree with you but defend your right to say what you say"

see that word "DEFEND"?

what, in your mind, does that word entail in the real world?

i'm all ears


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

of course (none / 1) (#312)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:03:12 PM EST

the procedure by which you change the constitution to enact a catholic theo-monarchy would be choice that would end democracy.  but there is no legal way to do that, at this point, besides following our democratic process itself.

now there is always the concept of a coup, but then we're not talking about democracy at that point, we're talking about violence.

you defend your beliefs through speech, through organization, through lobbying to impact what legislation is passed, through protesting, and, at times, through sacrificing yourself in nonviolent protest.

but to violate your own professed belief (that of free speech) by advocating making certain kinds of speech that you happen to disagree with illegal?  hell no.  never.

but I don't expect captain 'ignore reality when I disagree with it' to understand that point, not at all.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

you poor, poor man ;-) the folly of the idealist (none / 1) (#314)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:08:36 PM EST

"you defend your beliefs through speech, through organization, through lobbying to impact what legislation is passed, through protesting, and, at times, through sacrificing yourself in nonviolent protest."

wow

breathtaking

there is no situation, ever, to go to violence to defend your freedoms?

is that what you are honestly telling me?

oh, btw, since you accuse me of dodging: is modern germany fascist according to you?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you obviously didn't read my reply (3.00 / 2) (#316)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:11:43 PM EST

and your point about violence is off-topic, so I'm ignoring it.

as for whether modern-day Germany restricts free speech or not, that isn't controversial.  Said restriction is indeed anti-democratic, and I disapprove of it.  Yes, we should let people say what they will, neo-nazi or not, jew-hating or not.  You can't have free speech without it.  

My mis-application of the term fascist was mainly used as an emotionally loaded shorthand for authoritarian, hypocritical nitwit, which is entirely too long to use as often as I'd like.  I've already said as much once, and now twice.  I wonder if you'll read this comment, either?  


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

(jaw hangs open) (none / 1) (#318)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:15:38 PM EST

this is what you just said:

  1. violence isn't part of the topic at hand
  2. modern germany is fascist
  3. i am going to use my own definition of fascism at this point in the thread

are you trying to lose this argument or what?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
the topic is restriction of nonviolent, political (3.00 / 2) (#320)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:19:20 PM EST

speech, which you advocated in favor of, here.

it is morally and logically consistent with the idea of democracy to exclude from a conversation those who wish to destroy a conversation

for example, if there were a party in a democracy running for government on the platform that democracy should be replaced with theocracy/ fascism/ autocracy/ etc., it is entirely fair and reasonable and good to censor and outlaw that party

destroying a conversation != violence
advocating change of government style != violence

I dealt with the issue of violent speech here.  Read it.

go fuck yourself, this is YOUR stupidity at hand here, not mine.  


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

i understand your game now (none / 1) (#322)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:23:12 PM EST

fascism just kinda means whatever you want it to mean at any given moment

"destroying a conversation != violence"

because of course, the word "destroy" has zero violent implications. of course (snicker)

life is awesome when i can just invent meanings for words completely contradictory to what they actually mean

so at this point in the thread, all i have really learned from you is that oyu have no idea what fascism means, and no idea what the word destroy means

the mind boggles at what i will learn that you don't understand in the next comment


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

'destroy a conversation' (none / 1) (#327)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:51:45 PM EST

is shouting LALALALLALALALALA so that a conversation cannot occur (i.e. 'destroying' it), violence?

c'mon cts, this is some weak-ass shit.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

gee that's a fascinating interpretation (none / 1) (#330)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:28:45 PM EST

too bad its your interpretation, and not what i actually said. it would be useful for you to criticize what i actually said, not the spastic extrapolation that only exists in your head, don't you think?

but we know: you have creative word definitions on your side. i mean words like destroy, fascism.... you will forgive me, but i think my usage of the meaning of those words is pretty typical. you go on with dodging the issue, with intellectual dishonestly, by creatively redifining the meaning of words in a conversation... but then you WARP the conversation. see that? warp, not the same meaning as "destroy" ;-)

intellectul exercise for you: if i destroy a conversation, how would i do that? please try to use normal and averave word definitions. k thx


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you're the one that came up (none / 1) (#333)
by ray eckson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:23:39 AM EST

with the bullshit phrase; you define/defend it.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
i'm bored... anyways, dude: (none / 0) (#345)
by circletimessquare on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:53:10 AM EST

what the hell is going on here?

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2008/4/18/14058/4027

you have a stalker


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

yeah, I have no idea what that dude's problem is (none / 1) (#349)
by ray eckson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:05:20 PM EST




wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
EVERYONE PLEASE READ THE ABOVE (snicker) ;-) (none / 1) (#323)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:24:08 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
that was (none / 1) (#368)
by taste on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 08:56:59 AM EST

actually pretty interesting. both of you were trying to destroy one another's conversation. its hard to see who actually trolled whom but I'm guessing from the context that it's very likley you're both winners for making me get involved enough to write a response. touche guys.

[ Parent ]
ultimate troll nirvana achieved: (none / 1) (#369)
by circletimessquare on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:22:18 PM EST

to be the biggest troll biter, and the biggest troller around, all at the same time

double nina blackbelt in trollduggery awarded

i am now level 70

ommmmmmmmmmmmm


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

works in democracies of people, not persons. (1.50 / 2) (#339)
by FreakWent on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:18:12 AM EST

"you defend your beliefs through speech, through organization, through lobbying to impact what legislation is passed, through protesting, and, at times, through sacrificing yourself in nonviolent protest."

Paraphrased as:

Corporations win.

[ Parent ]

Definition (none / 0) (#398)
by Corwin06 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 07:08:36 AM EST

Just as a quick refresher :

Fascism is what happens when the pblic and private sector melt in a country. It implies the notion of total responsibility of the individual before the state : resposible for your thoughts , acts, speech etc. That's to say, the State has total control over everything, infrastructures, people, economy, resources.

That is fascism, totalitarianism.

Now asimilating someone to a fascist for to say "free speech unless against free speech" or "free speech for all speech moron", yeah, I call Godwin on that.

IHBT

"and you sir, in an argument in a thread with a troll in a story no one is reading in a backwater website, you're a fucking genius
--circletimessquare
[ Parent ]
woah there (none / 1) (#338)
by FreakWent on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:15:49 AM EST

I don't know what CTS is on about because it's too badly?
structured!

To read, easily.

However, the original premise of the article was not  to ban classes of speech based on their racist politics, but based on their inflammatory shallow nature.

In other words, a discussion about resource distribution and whether or not we should be actively encouraging African populations to unsustainable levels with food aid or letting them starve is acceptable.

"Niggers stink" is not.  Essentially, as I understand it, the common goal of us all is to promote thought and understanding in one another, and the problem under discussion is behaviour that detracts from that.

using the phrase "savage negro beasts" is a good example, partly because the word savage can refer to either innate behaviour or circumstance, and because we are all beasts (animals) so it's redundant.

At it's core, the problem is that too many people can't or won't take the time to consider their argument and select words which convey it well.

Besides, negros smell different to others based on diet and environment, any genetic component is neglibile.

[ Parent ]

I'm talking about CTS's comment, not the story. (none / 1) (#348)
by ray eckson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:04:31 PM EST

don't get involved in something you can't comprehend, fuckwit.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
and here's your proof: (none / 1) (#294)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:16:56 PM EST

for example, if there were a party in a democracy running for government on the platform that democracy should be replaced with theocracy/ fascism/ autocracy/ etc., it is entirely fair and reasonable and good to censor and outlaw that party

YOUR WORDS: EAT THEM


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

"i disagree with what you say (none / 1) (#297)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:24:27 PM EST

but i defend your right to say it"

dude, i'm that act of defense

what about that do you not get?!


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

nowhere in your statement was an expression (none / 1) (#301)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:43:27 PM EST

of intent to violence, of planning of violence.  you were advocating censoring, banning speech, simply because you disliked the politics of the speaker.

and that, my friend, is why you're a fucking fascist.

HTH

HAND


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

we've been over this (none / 1) (#305)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:48:57 PM EST

you confuse my desire to remove fascism with actual fascism

we know you have difficulty with this

something more illuminating please


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

if you can't remember the things you yourself (none / 1) (#309)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:52:10 PM EST

have said only moments ago, then attempting any sort of rational discussion with you is clearly impossible.

thus, the intellectual dishonesty.  we've come full circle.  g'night folks.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

i have been 100% uniform in all of my comments (none / 1) (#311)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:00:00 PM EST

you say otherwise, but will not show where and how, and then stamp off in a huff

got it

i guess with a stubborn person that is as close as you get to an admission of defeat


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

your inconsistency (none / 1) (#313)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:06:23 PM EST

with regards to A) making political speech you disagree with illegal and B) saying you would restrict illegal speech to only speech that plans or intends violence.  

Perhaps we're quibbling over what 'intent to violence' means, and if so I sincerely hope we get that out of the way right now, but it seems to me that you're conflating 'speech I disagree with because it makes me feel yucky' with 'speech that shows intent to commit violence'.

You've said that you want to make the statement "I wish to do away with the first amendment" illegal.  Such speech, while disagreeable, is NOT a statment of intent to immediate violence.

But go on, dodge and weave some more.

Your immature self-ignorance is really quite tiresome, and yes, I'm approaching my limit of how much more of it I'm willing to tolerate.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

that was funny, i give you points for humor ;-) (none / 1) (#315)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:10:54 PM EST

plese inform me:

if there is a political organization that

  1. says it intends violence thousands of times
  2. is said by dozens of people in the organization
  3. continues this drumbeat for months

in your mind, what is the likelihood of violence?

in my mind, it is 100%. and you?

oh, btw, since you accuse me of dodging: is modern germany fascist according to you?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

speech that intends violence (none / 1) (#317)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:15:04 PM EST

or that plans violence, and lets be real fucking clear here: violence against PEOPLE, is not protected speech.  If you ask me whether I support that or not, I'll have a hard time arguing the point.  I think there is certainly an argument in favor of being able to shout "I'm going to fucking kill you" in the heat of the moment.  

But, and let me be totally clear here, political speech advocating the abolishment of free speech, or political speech advocating the disenfranchisement of thousands of people, or political speech encouraging that all political speech should be banned, IS NOT PLANNED NOR INTENT TO VIOLENCE!

get it through your deliberately-thick, dipshit skull!


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

what you just said: (none / 1) (#319)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:17:53 PM EST

"i disagree with what you said, but i have absolutely no intention of defending your right to say it"

what does that word DEFEND entail in your mind

protests? letter writing campaigns? do you understand the enemy we are talking about here? or, no, i'm sorry, i forgot, you use the word "fascist" but you don't know what it means, so i guess you don't


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you're off topic, again (none / 1) (#321)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:20:10 PM EST

your idea of "defending" free speech is by restricting it, so I can't imagine we can have a coherent discussion on that subject.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
yes, absolutely (none / 1) (#324)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:25:07 PM EST

there are limits on free speech. yes. what is confusing about that?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
game called due to time (none / 1) (#328)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:52:47 PM EST

I'm going home.  Don't think that you've 'won', though.  Whatever that means.  I still think you're a fool.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
my words hew closer to reality (none / 1) (#331)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:29:35 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
reality is subjective (none / 1) (#337)
by ray eckson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:49:49 AM EST




wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
and in your mind (none / 1) (#329)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:55:44 PM EST

those limits should extend to political speech that you disagree with.  fantastic.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
no, not that i disagree with (none / 1) (#332)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:48:24 PM EST

to speech that says political speech should be limited

why do you continue to confuse me with the threat i am fighting

this is our conversation in a nutshell:

me: "those that move to limit free speech should be fought"
you: "why do you want to limit free speech?"

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO?

dude: those who are AGAINST free speech are those i am fighting

when you DEFEND free speech, what EXACTLY does that mean in your mind


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

apparently, you defend free speech (none / 1) (#334)
by ray eckson on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:24:36 AM EST

by seeking to limit it.

its the whole we had to destroy the village in order to save it argument, and it is bankrupt.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

So? (none / 0) (#238)
by basj on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:21:58 PM EST

> in the same way, someone campaigning in a
> democracy for the destruction of democracy
> deserves to be stopped.

By any means necessary? Or only by the inherent power(s) of our open societies?

Do you believe in the superiority of western democracy, or only in its benefits?
--
Complete the Three Year Plan in five years!
[ Parent ]

cts is a troll (2.50 / 2) (#239)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:26:36 PM EST

and intellectually dishonest, at that.  its best to ignore him.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
yes, i am a troll. but i am intellectually honest (1.66 / 3) (#240)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:35:57 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
you show no signs of that (none / 1) (#241)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:36:36 PM EST

never have


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
U R TEH RETARDZ (2.00 / 2) (#243)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:41:03 PM EST

AND OTHER BASELESS SMEARS

to dismiss all of my words here as never showing any intellectual honesty shows

  1. you never read me
  2. you are incapable of reading comprehension


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I don't think so, dude (none / 1) (#244)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:43:52 PM EST

I've watched your rather tawdry and pathetic antics for at least three years now.  You like to provoke, and you'll wear whatever colors you need to achieve that effect.

That is fine, but don't embarrass yourself by claiming that isn't what you're doing.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

somewhere in these attacks on me (2.00 / 2) (#246)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:49:45 PM EST

you'll demonstrate my scurrilious demeanor in my past words, and prove in shock and horror why the average kuro5hit should turn in fear of my scoundrel ways, lest i creep into their mind and pervert it with my evil misdeeds

where would k5 be without you bravely defending it from the likes of antiintellectually honest me?

zzz
 

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I don't care about k5's population (none / 1) (#248)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:52:13 PM EST

My only purpose is to make you face the vapid and juvenile persona you've created.  You're a caricature of yourself.  It would be amusing if it weren't so pathetic.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
this is all true (2.00 / 2) (#249)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:53:07 PM EST

however, i am still waiting for you to address your charge of intellectual dishonesty. the other accusations i embrace and could care less about


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
see (none / 1) (#252)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:56:53 PM EST

here

dipshit


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

i understand that is what you believe (2.00 / 2) (#257)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:13:45 PM EST

you said so

http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2008/4/15/143539/481/251#251

you believe that defending democracy from fascism is the same as fascism

i understand you believe that

however, that your belief conflicts with my belief is not sufficient to warrant the charge of intellectual dishonesty

for example, i disagree with you, but i do not think you are being intellectually dishonest

what i believe about you is that you are being intellectually honest, but your life experience is rather limited, and so you aren't bringing sufficient experience to the issue to comment intelligently on it

sure, you are passionate, and you are committed, but you are also naive and sheltered about what one must do to defend what is important

and in your simpleton's mind on the issue, you confuse the vigorous protection of democracy with the attacking of democracy. simply because you see physical cnflict, you elieve all parties are guilty

for example. if a man stabs me, and i stab him back, all you see is two men stabbing each other, both equally guilty of stabbing

meanwhile, in my mind, one is defending himself, and the other is attacking

in other words, it is not good enough to simply consider the extent of violence someone is doing. one must consider their intent as well

in your mind, apparently intent has no meaning. that a victim is the same as a perpetrator

which, as i said, is a rather naive and sheltered, or perhaps just plain low iq way to view your world

intent

what does that concept mean to you?

does it have any value when violent acts are committed?

or simply being in a violent situation, one perhaps you never even invited, makes one guilty as someone with bad intent?

naive


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I hate to break it to you (none / 1) (#268)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:02:47 PM EST

but line breaks and diarrhea of the keyboard don't make your vacuous, intellectually dishonest arguments more persuasive.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
I hate to break it to you (none / 1) (#274)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:26:47 PM EST

but calling someone names doesn't actually destroy their argument

it's very intellectually dishonest of you

(snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you're the one with the fundamentally flawed (none / 1) (#276)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:29:19 PM EST

thesis, and completely specious arguments.  All I'm doing is pointing that fact out to you.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
my thesis is sound (none / 1) (#281)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:36:26 PM EST

and encompasses a superior understanding and greater experience with human nature than you apparently possess


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
there's that intellectual dishonesty again (none / 1) (#284)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:38:22 PM EST

and you call me the name-caller?  

lol.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

oh i'm sorry, you need intellectual charity: (none / 1) (#287)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:46:18 PM EST

here, little child, let me take your hand:

intellectual dishonesty is the purposeful avoiding of an obvious issue. its not name calling. for example, i fi address an issue AND ic all you names, i am not being intellectually dishonest. but if i ONLY call you names, i am being intellectually dishonest

i know, these subtle concepts are hard, aren't they?

for example, i don't think you are intellectually dishonest, just intellectually limited. you honestly say and believe what you write: you are intellectually honest. but you are of limited mental wattage. you just can't help yourself

there, there little boy. if you concentrate real hard, maybe you can go to wonderful new places in your mind someday! i ahve faith in you! clap clap! ;-)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

the fundamental point (none / 1) (#290)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:08:49 PM EST

is that your position is indefensible.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
my position is defensible (none / 1) (#293)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:16:41 PM EST

in the realm of actual human behavior

ou think that the theoretical distinction between word and action actually matters when we are talking about

thousands of ocmments
dozens of people
periods of years

you think that word and action at that point are still separate entities. that aciton will not follow those words. no, action is inevitable. if you don' understand or believe this, you are sheltered and naive and inexperienced in world history and human nature and simple social dynamics


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you're dodging your principle thesis (none / 1) (#295)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:17:53 PM EST

because you know you've lost

predictable, but ineffective.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

put your money where you rmouth is (none / 1) (#298)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:25:38 PM EST

show me what i have dodged. i am not avoiding any issues, i am not contradicting anything i've previously said


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
see (none / 1) (#303)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:46:12 PM EST

here

too many threads.  could we collapse down to two, instead of four?


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

ok. i see that. where is the contradiction? (none / 1) (#308)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:50:47 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
ps, on the subject of dodging: (none / 1) (#299)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:28:48 PM EST

germany currently outlaws fascist nazi speech. according to your words in this thread, does that mean:

  1. modern germany is fascist, or
  2. you are wrong about me

choose, don't dodge now oh great swami ;-)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
actually the term is wildly misused (none / 1) (#302)
by ray eckson on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:45:18 PM EST

in modern debate.

I could use 'authoritarian hypocrite jackass' if you prefer, but fascist has a much nicer ring to it.

The policies you advocate have had an illustrious history in Stalin's USSR, and Mao's China, but have no business in US.


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]

so you believe modern germany is fascist then? (none / 1) (#306)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:49:41 PM EST

come on. take your words to their logical conclusion

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
OK, I bite. (none / 1) (#399)
by Corwin06 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 07:19:09 AM EST

No. It takes much, much more than outwlawing free speech to be fascist.

YOU BOTH LOSE

"and you sir, in an argument in a thread with a troll in a story no one is reading in a backwater website, you're a fucking genius
--circletimessquare
[ Parent ]
what is western democracy? (2.00 / 2) (#242)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:39:26 PM EST

that makes it sound like something that can only work in the west

i believe in democracy, period. not "western" democracy, whatever that is supposed to mean

so you go over the urals or south of the rio grande and suddenly space and time warp and the people living there are suddenly unable or undeserving to live in a democracy?

as for "any means necessary" this implies i am gunning for some sort of unsymmetrical force. such as beheading people who say nasty things. this is your fear talking, not a sound understanding of what i am actually saying. you reply to people hellbent on destroying democracy with dispersion, not abu ghraib. there's no need to go medieval, nor was that anything i ever implied. that's your fear inserting that thought into my words

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Oh that's ok (3.00 / 2) (#256)
by basj on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:10:46 PM EST

Let's call it 'democracy' then, that's fine by me. You got my meaning anyway.

I never implied you wanted to 'go medieval'.

But let's to return to my original question: do you believe in the superiority of democracy, or only in its benefits?

(Or perhaps, to paraphrase Steven Colbert, do you simply believe it exists?)
--
Complete the Three Year Plan in five years!
[ Parent ]

i believe in the equality of all men (2.00 / 2) (#258)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:18:03 PM EST

when one believes in that, then it logically follows that democracy becomes the only valid system of governance

all oher systems: autocracy in russia, theocracy in iran, technocracy in china, etc., is based on elitism, aristocracy, an "us" versus a "them", where there is a special ruling class of people who decides who better interprets god's words, or better interprets what is best for the country, etc

this simply plants the seed for suffering. for if one beleives in essential equality of all men, then it is impossible that one man be in a special ruling class based on arbitrary qualities that really boil down to nothing more than the elite class choosing at it swhim who belongs and who doesn't

only the masses have the validity to choose who leads them. no one else


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

That's a narrow interpretation of democracy (3.00 / 2) (#259)
by basj on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:32:33 PM EST

... and the reason why I said 'western democracy' originally. Western democracy implies capitalism and free speech, both of which I think are instrumental to the freedoms we enjoy.

Your concept of democracy as you've explained it in your comment still has an 'us' versus 'them': a majority versus a minority. The virtue of democracy therefore cannot lie in the fact that with it, there is no 'us' vs. 'them'.

> only the masses have the validity to choose who leads them

That sounds like the category mistake Marx made. Dictatorship of the proletariat and all that.
--
Complete the Three Year Plan in five years!
[ Parent ]

well (2.00 / 2) (#262)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:52:38 PM EST

there always is an us versus them, on every issue that has ever existed and ever will exist. you can't avoid us versus them

because of this real world limitation, you are willing to say that an outright government system based on outright exclusion of the masses by an elite is the same as the existence of the essential unavoidable existence of differences in opinion?

dude: there is ALWAYS a majority and a minority and ALWAYS will be, on every issue that ever was and ever will be. simply because of this fact, democracy is the virtually same as tyranny? huh?

in other words, democracy is not perfect. but its better than all other government systems where the creation of suffering due to unequal power is greater than that in democracy

in other words, you think that proving to me that democracy is not perfect destroys my argument. no, you just misjudge the argument i am not making. i am not saying democracy is without weaknesses, i am simply saying, given all the other choices, democracy's weaknesses are the smallest. therefore, everyone should have democracy

you pointing out to me that the majority can make the minority suffer is not a valid critique of democracy. simply because every other government system you present to me makes this unequal power structure worse. such that democracy is merely the best we can do in an imperfect world. and simply because you have not made peace with the fact that we cannot have perfection does not allow you to equate democracy's failings with the failings of other goverments. no: democracy's failings are milder than all other government system's failings. get it?

i agree with your critique of the pitfalls of majority perverting the minority. i agree with every other critique of democracy you can present me. now i simply ask you to examine the pitfalls of every other government system. now i want you to pick the system with the least pitfalls. you will choose democracy after that intellectual exercise

"'only the masses have the validity to choose who leads them'

That sounds like the category mistake Marx made. Dictatorship of the proletariat and all that."

i don't understand what you are trying to say. who has better credentials than the masses themselves about deciding who leads them? do you believe that there is a special class of people better able to judge what is better to lead the masses?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Democracy (none / 1) (#325)
by Pentashagon on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:36:55 PM EST

An interesting thought experiment is the effect of requiring a super-majority for the creation of new laws, and a lesser majority (or even sub-majority) for repealing an existing law.

For instance, a 90% majority could be required to add any new law, while only a 25% sub-majority would be required to repeal the same law once it was passed. This would entirely eliminate the existing two-party problem in the U.S., because a third party has much more say in repealing a law, and forming a majority of only 51% is no longer sufficient to control the entire government, so compromise is necessary.

Rule by the minority is a possibility, but it would be better described as anti-rule by the minority, by limiting the response from government in order to benefit an economically or socially powerful minority.

It might be useful to retain constitutional laws, but it would be almost superfluous because as long as 25% of the people thought they wanted free speech or gun rights, they could have them.

The interesting question is at which points does this government system coincide with existing systems of government. It seems like the representational republics already share some of the super-majority qualities, because while it's likely that 51% of the people might support taking the other 49% of the people's money at any given time, representational governments spread out this extremism enough to make it practically impossible for the elected representatives to completely match the sentiments. All it takes is a sane enough bloc of voters in one district (a sub-majority of the voters overall) to elect a rational representative who will prevent the 51% majority from succeeding. Repealing laws is no different in a representative government, however, and probably truly requires a super-majority of voters to accomplish, for the same reason. So republics are just like setting the true levels at 60 or 70 percent for both passing and repealing laws.

Anarchy has very low percentages, with only temporary alliances creating local laws (a sub-majority), with any one individual mostly able to locally repeal the law (effectively 0%).

Fascism and authoritarianism, along with bureaucracy in general, inverts the priority of passing and repealing laws, making new laws easier than repealing old ones.

Some styles of governments can simply be modeled by assigning weights to individual citizens that determine how much influence they have in the overall vote. Dictatorships just have a very high weight on the leader's vote.

[ Parent ]

i have a quibble (2.00 / 2) (#326)
by circletimessquare on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:55:14 PM EST

why the obsession with protecting the minority? why the obsession with 3 parties? have you been to germany? no grand ideological cause is served. you just have greens getting in bed with the radical right for a craven power grab. meanwhile, with 2 party, you have a hard competition to appeal to the middle

the middle. the most important thing in politics. a stte of maximum synchronicity of opinion between the ruled and the rulers (as close as humanly possible, which, granted, can be quite distant at times)

here is the idea: legitimacy. legitimacy is a state of maximum agreement between the middle of the bell curve of the opinions of the ruled, and with those who rule

legitimacy is important because it creates something that is often overlooked in discussions about government: stability. stability is the MOST important aspect of government. instability leads to suffering which negates most of the progress a society makes

you get a french revolution type atmosphere as the opinions and agenda of the elite ruling classes gradually begins to drift away from the opinions and agenda of the middle of the bell curve of the ruled. this drift is absolutely inevitable without a constant dialogue with the ruled. a dialog that can only happen honestly if the ruled have real power... only possible in a democracy. tension grows and then a breaking point is reached in places like iran, russia, and china, where, ironically, stablity is a big goal. you CAN have stability for decades in nondemocracies, all the while the tension grows towards a french revolution moment

meanwhile, in a democracy where the leaders are swiped out constantly, this tension is constantly vented, as the leaders struggle to make their opinions those of the ruled. yes there is much drama and cacophony. but this is inevitable. it is HOW this drama plays out where democracy reveals its superiority: in constant low grade venting, rather than quiet followed by huge explosions in nondemocratic societies. the myth of the "harmonious" society is just that: the natural state of human ideology is ugly conflict. you can't paper over it and expect it to just evaporate. it builds

and it is in 2 party democracies where this pandering to the middle is maximized. why the cult of 3 or more parties? i fail to see the superiority. furthermore, the minority is the minority is the minoirty: being in the minority means you DESERVE your opinion to be less represented in government. someone on the far right or far left: what is the need exactly to magnify their voices? what purpose is served?

legitimacy, stability. you achieve that by pandering to the middle. and this is superior. and this is the strength of democracy over all other forms of government


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

We're the minority, stupid (3.00 / 2) (#370)
by Pentashagon on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 03:33:14 PM EST

Everyone reading k5 is in a pretty significant minority in at least one sense, and probably we share plenty of other attributes that shove us into other minorities.

Why the hell should we trust a majority to decide what's best for us?

On the other hand, we probably have a median income well above average, so we can probably just buy anything (including laws) that we really want. That's not really democratic either.

Direct democracy gives implicit support to the concept that might makes right. Namely, whatever 51% of the people like becomes right, whether the other 49% (or less) are composed of blacks, whites, jews, chinese, japanese, christians, muslims, or any other historically persecuted minority. Just about everyone has ancestors who have sufferred because of being a minority.

A solution where a much higher percentage of the population is required to agree on something makes it much more difficult to abuse minorities. It even works for things like social programs, because the minority who aren't receiving assistence can just band together with the libertarians to cancel taxation until the majority realizes they're better off supporting the poor, disabled, and abandoned children than they are not paying taxes.

The concept of inherent human rights is just as important, but again, the constitution can be ammended by only 2/3rds of the population. Black people and women didn't always have their inherent human rights recognized in the U.S. Depending on the population distribution, that may have even been a completely democratic (e.g. >51% of the population) opinion.

As technology develops, the rights of the dead who are revived (via cryogenics or whatever), the rights of cyborgs, and eventually the rights of intelligent computers will all fall into minority positions that need to be protected. I'm guessing there are plenty of k5ers who can understand why protecting the rights of current minorities sets important precedents for our own future. Does anyone really think the people today who don't even want to let gays marry or allow stem cell research (approaching a scary democratic majority) will look kindly on biological transformation, human-machine integration, or true machine intelligence? The U.S. political "Right" is almost the antithesis of k5, and we're talking about letting a simple majority decide the future of science and technology in the U.S.?

I suppose if you want to live in a xenophobic luddite backwater, direct democracy is okay. I want to respect the basic human rights of everyone, but I sure don't want everyone telling me what I can and cannot do with my body or technology. It's an obvious case for requiring a high barrier of entry for new laws, with the ability for minorities to protect themselves by removing stupid laws.

[ Parent ]

minority opinions you fucking retard (1.00 / 2) (#371)
by circletimessquare on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 03:50:25 PM EST

not actual MINORITIES

what a seriously retarded moron

majority versus minority as in "the death penalty should be legal" or the "the death penalty should be abolished"

IDEOLOGY not RACE

do you understand retard?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Opinions belong to groups (none / 1) (#387)
by Pentashagon on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:52:52 PM EST

You're making the mistake of thinking that people are a universal mush of equivalent individuals who for no apparent reason happen to hold vastly different moral/political opinions. The truth is that people hold different opinions because of their personal beliefs and circumstances, and there is usually a very high correlation between being in a minority and holding opinions that are in the minority.

Maybe you can draw some correlations from that fact that minorities in the U.S. (blacks, notably) are more opposed to the death penalty than whites are. Blacks also happen to be executed at much higher per capita rates than whites. If you can't draw a simple conclusion about how individuals in a minority form their minority opinions and why, then I suggest you should just listen to the majority of k5 that asks you to shut up, since it's obviously a democratic decision and your minority opinion doesn't count.

I mean, it's simple game theory. If you're in a room with 100 other people, and you find that 80% of the room identifies you as part of the 20% they don't like and starts to beating the shit out of you, you're going to have an opinion much more similar to the other 19 people in your minority than the opinions of the 80 in the majority.

I'll repeat my argument in caps for your understanding pleasure:

THERE ARE NO IDEOLOGICAL OPINIONS WITHOUT SOME BASIS IN PERSONAL CIRCUMSTANCES, INCLUDING RACE

You can't separate the people in a minority (or majority) from their opinions any more than you can separate the bullshit from your argument.

[ Parent ]

YOU FAIL (none / 1) (#388)
by circletimessquare on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:07:56 PM EST

everything you say is 100% correct

now show me a hypothetical government that fares better than democracy on this issue

in other words, yes, oppression of a minority (ideological) can have some overlap with oppression of a minority (racial). however, all other forms of government merely amplify this effect, as the ruling aristocratic/ technocratic/ theocratic/ whatevercratic class also hews along racial lines, and is even MORE exclusionary than a democracy in terms of oppressing a minority (racial or ideological)

in other words, merely pointing out a negative of democracy is not good enough. you need to point out a negative of democracy that is not also a far worse negative for every other kind of government that exists

what you are really complaining about is the tribal aspects of human nature that NO kind of government can protect us from. only a human moral conscience of strong will and influence can. and such heroes rise to the top of the ruling class best in a democracy: democracy offers more "churn", more opportunities for vertical advancement, than all the other various kinds of government based on some sort of fixed, aribtrary ruling class... which usually breaks down by race

so, in conclusion: YOU FAIL

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Supermajorities might be slightly better (none / 0) (#392)
by Pentashagon on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:50:58 PM EST

Direct democracy with a 50% majority rule is probably trumped by anything with more restraints on the majority. I mentioned constitutional republics as one example, for example the most basic U.S. laws require at least a 2/3rds majority to change them.

Having a hierarchy of laws is another method of doing essentially the same thing, but more efficiently. Level 1 laws could require a simple majority of 50% to pass, but the level 1 laws would have to conform with all the higher levels. Level 2 laws would require 75%, level 3 could require 90%, etc. until the most basic laws would be essentially axiomatic, requiring 99% or more of the population to agree on changing them. The highest laws would consist of basic human rights and fundamental limits on the lower levels, e.g. "congress shall make no law..." style. The efficiency comes from the fact that the high level laws take the place of having every citizen vote on every single low level decision the government makes.

Practically, most governments already function similar to this. There are few direct democracies, and even those usually have a constitution guaranteeing basic human rights. Countries, states, cities, and districts form a basic hierarchy that (in most civilized countries) adhere to most U.N. resolutions as the highest level laws about human rights.

what you are really complaining about is the tribal aspects of human nature that NO kind of government can protect us from. only a human moral conscience of strong will and influence can. and such heroes rise to the top of the ruling class best in a democracy: democracy offers more "churn", more opportunities for vertical advancement, than all the other various kinds of government based on some sort of fixed, aribtrary ruling class... which usually breaks down by race

Governments DO manage to protect us against a lot of tribal aspects, but you're right that it requires some form of social and (possibly) moral structure. There are plenty of people who will do what they're told, almost certainly enough to run a stable government even if they don't necessarily strongly believe in the general mores of the society. The problem is figuring out how to create a self-sustaining government that can not only keep tribal impulses in check but also prevent internal subversion that would weaken its control over those same tribal impulses.

The problem with letting heroes rise to power is that heroes can change and turn against their followers. The legal system itself should be valued far more than any of the individual leaders implementing it.

I agree with you that freedom of mobility is very important in a government (and society in general) but you haven't shown that democracy is any better at implementing upward mobility than any other system. Mobility is a direct result of classlessness and personal equality; both concepts are rather new and resulted not from government structures but from the enlightenment and the age of reason. Rome had a republic, but it was class based and never had the mobility potential that the modern world does. The importance of equality has to be enforced at a level higher than democracy, in metalaws like the constitution. Just trusting every succeeding generation to remain moral and enlightened is sort of a crapshoot.

[ Parent ]

oh god not this troll (1.00 / 2) (#393)
by circletimessquare on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:15:45 PM EST

"democracy is not a republic"

thanks for informing me, i had no idea (rolls eyes)

i am arguing for democracy versus nondemocracy

i am not arguing for fundamentalist democracy versus democracy salted with various flavors

meaning, you're arguing against a straw man, you completely misinterpret the conversation


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I'm not offering a critique of democracy (none / 1) (#346)
by basj on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:35:32 AM EST

I'm offering a critique of your defense of it.

Or, to be fair, I'm offering a critique of my understanding of your defense of it. (You seem to be sensitive to these kind of things.)

My point is -- and I feel we're coming to the heart of the matter now --  that there is a difference between believing in democracy because of it's inherent goodness (as ray eckson seems to be doing) and your believing in democracy because of its benefits. As you say, democracy brings stability because of the "constant low grade venting". You then are indeed a realist (or rather a pragmatist, as am I -- I couldn't agree more with you on this.).

So how then do you square this pragmatism with:  "when one believes in [the equality of all man], then it logically follows that democracy becomes the only valid system of governance"?

I mean, it is still a posibility that a numerical minority has a disproporsional influence on the stability of a country...

My remarkt about Marx is tangential to this discussion. I'm sorry I brought it up.

--
Complete the Three Year Plan in five years!
[ Parent ]

good remarks (none / 1) (#347)
by circletimessquare on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:09:58 AM EST

however it still remains that you view as a negative what i view as a positive: that "a tyranny of the majority" is supposed to somehow be avoided or is bad

actually, this is the whole point of democracy

minority voices are SUPPOSED to be squelched

suffering and violence comes when minority ideology are foisted upon the majority, not the other way around

so what i don't understand is why the idea of majority rule is supposed to be bad or anathema to something... what it hurts, i don't know

the great moderate middle, the majority, SHOULD rule. that's the whole point: maximum synchronicity between the ideals of the ruled and the ideals of the rulers. the minority fringe voices on the outer edges of the bell curve, right and left, SHOULD be squelched

are we in agreement about that? i don't know why this issue of majority rule presents a problem to you

as for "So how then do you square this pragmatism with:  "when one believes in [the equality of all man], then it logically follows that democracy becomes the only valid system of governance"?" i am trying hard to get at what you are saying here. you are contrasting my pragmatism with supposed starry eyed idealism in that comment about equality and democracy. however, in that comment i see nothing but more pragmatism, i don't see any idealism. so i don't see the contrast at work

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

No you misunderstand (none / 1) (#372)
by basj on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 07:33:53 AM EST

> are we in agreement about that?
> i don't know why this issue of majority
> rule presents a problem to you

Yes we are, and no it doesn't.

Perhaps it would be best if I'd explain my thoughts on democracy now. You'll see we agree on many points. I think that on the whole the most numerous group is the most powerful. Of course, there can be small 'elites' but, as you explained, they're only in power 'till the next revolution. The virtue of democracy therefore is, again, as you said, a practical one, in that it provides a gradual mechanism for power change.  

Because of this, it is in the interest of all groups in a society to be open, i.e. to not exclude people on the basis of arbitrary criteria like race or religion. This explains why conservative, bourgeois parties in Europe seek lower-class support.

If we were to equate 'not excluding people on the basis of arbitrary criteria' with ' believing in the equality of all men' we can see where our opinions differ:

  1. You seem to take 'the equality of all man' as a premise, as a statement from which democracy follows logically as the only tenable form of government.

  2. I take the equality of all man -- construed as 'no group can afford to exclude people on the basis of arbitrary criteria' -- as a result of democracy. (Under the assumption that the more populous group is the more powerful.)

Secondly, I think your belief in a bell curve of political opinions is a gross oversimplification. I believe only in groups defined by the rational economic interests of their members. And it is precisely because of this group-rationality that democracy leads 'to the equality of all men': economic group-rationality will prevail over arbitrary criteria like race or religion.

As a side note: there is no political or economic reason why there should be a 'moderate middle'. In fact, the middle class is relatively new and pretty much only thrive in capitalist democracies. The appearance (or growth) of a middle class is generally taken as a sign of economic improvement and political stability. If anything a 'moderate middle' is a result of democracy, not an origin.

--
Complete the Three Year Plan in five years!
[ Parent ]

equality: cause or effect (none / 1) (#374)
by circletimessquare on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:15:42 PM EST

doesn't matter, as democracy and equality reinforce each other

as for the bell curve, it most certainly exists

take "drug legalization" or any other issue you can dream of

one fringe want alcohol and caffeine and cigarattes outlawed

the moderate middle says marijuana, alcohol ok

the other fringe wants coke/ heroin/ meth legal

now break out those numbers on a complex issue like that, and in terms of sheer numbers of support, there is a continuum, and it is shaped like a bell curve

all ideology is like that, all of it, in all societies, in all times

it shifts around of course, to the left, to the right, but slowly, like molasses

there is always a great moderate middle on any ideological topic, and they matter, and they should matter, in a healthy democracy: the ruled dictate the beliefs of the rulers in a democracy

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

It does matter, but the bell curve is irrelevant (none / 1) (#375)
by basj on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 01:02:37 PM EST

It does matter if equality is a cause or an effect (or perhaps a necessary precondition) if we want to understand the relationships between democracy, free speech, capitalism and (our) ethics. Don't you want to try to understand these relationships?

There is no bell curve. To give a counterexample: there is no 'moderate middle' on a topic like 'extermination of the Jews'. There is no fringe entirely for it, another fringe entirely against it and a great moderate middle believing some Jews should be exterminated, but not all. Politics is not binary, or bi-polar. It has, in practice, everything to do with multifaceted choices. This is evidenced by the fact that we (in Europe) vote for parties who we hope represent our interests. We do not vote on isolated issues. We do not rule ourselves by referenda. I take it that's what you're proposing?
--
Complete the Three Year Plan in five years!
[ Parent ]

there is no bell curve? (1.00 / 2) (#377)
by circletimessquare on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 02:35:31 PM EST

and then you cite a ridiculous issue

well there is no bell curve on "should cannibalism be legal" either, but that doesn't mean anything, the issue isn't valid

you have to talk valid issues that a lot of people care about: healthcare, security versus privacy, etc. opinions on issue that aren't part of a public debate don't have any meaning

you can't bring up issues no one cares about

" Politics is not binary, or bi-polar. It has, in practice, everything to do with multifaceted choices. "

that's why its a bell curve. duh


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Boring (none / 1) (#381)
by basj on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 03:17:41 PM EST

And possibly bordering on circular logic. If you add as a requirement: 'a lot of people have to talk about it', you're not illuminating or explaining anything at all. The important question is why are these issues part of a public debate?

But you're right about the bell curve. I shouldn't have said 'bi-polar', I should have said that people's political opinions aren't independent from their socio-economic position, location, etc..

Also, you wrote: in the same way, someone campaigning in a democracy for the destruction of democracy deserves to be stopped. don't you understand the implications? -- Do you feel this issue is 'valid' by the standards you set? Do you feel this issue is part of a public debate currently going on?
--
Complete the Three Year Plan in five years!
[ Parent ]

its valid in the same way suicide is valid: (none / 1) (#383)
by circletimessquare on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 03:58:12 PM EST

to make the choice to never choose again... is it valid and respectable to choose to never choose again?

and if you stopped such a person, are you imposing on their free will?

actually no: they are imposing on their free will. so you actually give them more free will by preventing them from attempting to remove their own free will

in a weird way, suicide, choosing to destroy democracy, is a situation where preventing people from doing that is showing greater respect for that person's free will than that person themselves is showing

if you don't respect your own free will, do you deserve to be respected?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

No wait (none / 1) (#376)
by basj on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 01:22:09 PM EST

You're not proposing referenda: you're proposing a two-party system with both parties vying for the vote of the 'great moderate middle'.

My objections still stand, though. You have not proven the necessary existence of such a 'great moderate middle'.

Perhaps in the US there is indeed such a 'great moderate middle' (that I'll grant you) but, as I've said, this is likely a result of a prosperous capitalist democracy, not a requirement for one.
--
Complete the Three Year Plan in five years!
[ Parent ]

i'm not going to rehash the obvious (none / 1) (#378)
by circletimessquare on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 02:36:18 PM EST

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-party_system#Advantages_and_disadvantages

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
You have not ... (none / 1) (#379)
by basj on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 02:53:46 PM EST

... shown the necessary existence (as in: existing in all possible democracies) of a 'great moderate middle'.

Without this, you are simply defending a two-party system, and have indeed been rehashing the obvious.


--
Complete the Three Year Plan in five years!
[ Parent ]
that's because to me (1.00 / 2) (#380)
by circletimessquare on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 03:16:33 PM EST

justifying the existence of a 'great moderate middle' is like justifying the existence of the sky

i can't in good conscience get in a pedantic discussion with someone about the obvious. i feel like i am patronizing a retard

i can't understand why you can't understand the very simple idea of a bell curve covering a range of opinions on a topic in a given population

it makes me think you are very sheltered, very stupid, or some osrt of asperger's socially stunted type of person


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Your loss (3.00 / 2) (#382)
by basj on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 03:26:19 PM EST

I must admit, I kinda liked our little a priori political-philosophy-type-talk, but if you want to go all "dude, it just is" on me; that's where I quit.
--
Complete the Three Year Plan in five years!
[ Parent ]
if you don't understand a bell curve (1.33 / 3) (#384)
by circletimessquare on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 03:59:23 PM EST

as pertaining to public opinion, you're quite stupid, and not worth talking to


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
At least you don't have to worry about chlorus now (3.00 / 2) (#224)
by BJH on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:04:19 AM EST


--
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

Too late to save the site (2.66 / 3) (#228)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:07:44 AM EST

It's interesting because psychologist is a troll and is trolling with this story for the most part.  But he is an infinitely higher class of troll than the ones he has cited in this article.

The point is that I miss the K5.  I don't come here that much anymore, because there's nothing to see.  As far as I know psychologist doesn't come around much anymore.  Most of the classic K5 trolls who wrote funny or interesting stuff are gone.  All the classic posters who weren't even trolls are certainly gone.

Is it possible to recreate the old K5 and keep it from devolving into the new K5?  I don't know.  Most sites have much stricter anti-trolling policies.  I always found this annoying, but maybe they are right.

Maybe we need to start a new K5 somewhere and understand that it will jump the shark after a few years and then start yet another one.


I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour

THAT WAS A WASTE OF $5 (1.75 / 4) (#229)
by CAPS LOCK on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:11:29 AM EST



did you pay $5 for that comment?. (none / 0) (#254)
by tetsuwan on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:01:52 PM EST


Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

NO (none / 1) (#340)
by CAPS LOCK on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 05:49:33 AM EST

BY REMAINING INOFFENSIVE AND POLITE I CAN COMMENT AS MUCH AS I LIKE!

[ Parent ]
THEN NO-ONE PAID ANYTHING (none / 0) (#341)
by tetsuwan on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:19:46 AM EST


Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

FP AND SECTIONS ARE FOR SERIOUS STUFF (1.50 / 2) (#230)
by CAPS LOCK on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:13:26 AM EST

DIARIES ARE FOR FOOLING ABOUT AND TROLLING. I TRY TO RESPECT THAT.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED (3.00 / 2) (#342)
by The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:39:36 AM EST

God I look like a stud in a jumpsuit.

___
I'm a pompous windbag, I take myself far too seriously, and I single-handedly messed up K5 by causing the fiction section to be created. --localroger

I agree (none / 1) (#351)
by elephant on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:13:04 PM EST

It is fairly easy to sort hate speech out from discussion. I have not been paying attention to postings here for some time, but will start reading again. The power to vote down abuse only requires we pay attention and exercise our own judgement in a prompt manner.

You're too late (none / 1) (#352)
by iceyone on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 04:01:15 PM EST

This site has already been trolled into obscurity. 4chan has more insightful comments.

SAGE (none / 0) (#389)
by circletimessquare on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:09:50 PM EST

NINE THOUSAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Didn't you, like, kill some chick? (1.50 / 2) (#353)
by fn0rd on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 05:48:46 PM EST

Seriously. Trolls are the least of your worries.

This fatwa brought to you by the Agnostic Jihad

It's like trying to (none / 1) (#359)
by levesque on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:20:50 PM EST

fix a problem with a problem.

I'm just trying to decide if I'm for and against both.

Like lotech said, slow down if there's a hurry

(well not exactly like that)

What ? (none / 0) (#390)
by levesque on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:38:16 PM EST

I meant time out. And what loteck said is what lotech means.

Maybe the diary section could have a shadow section.

When users post a diary it would be to the main diary section. The diary poster could then move individual comments (along with a copy of his diary) to the shadow section. Users could then post comments to the main or shadow diary as they wish. Viewing the shadow diary would be available to members only.

Diaries could be voted to be transferred to, or merged with, the shadow section. This in no way would stop further administration of user abuse but would hopefully reduce its need.

Not that I expect this to make sense, but I have come to think that maybe it is better to air musings than to wait for the a right idea (as if).

[ Parent ]

Yup (3.00 / 2) (#360)
by proctologist on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:43:56 PM EST

I couldn't agree more.

Now bend over.

If trolls arn't your thing. NMC might be. (none / 0) (#373)
by wastedyears on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:46:36 AM EST


WWW.ROFLKING.COM The King of wierd pictures.

He's why I don't like the trolls (2.66 / 3) (#385)
by Zombie Gautama Buddha on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 12:10:57 AM EST

They're fucken boring. I haven't been here in a while and it's mainly for this reason. Going into the diary section and seeing "nigger" etc. all the time makes me wonder why I even bother with the site anymore. It used to be different when the trolls were funny, clever, offensive, or at least something. Now I just see a bunch of morons who never grew up, and it's boring. As much as I like to laugh at some of them (MMM), even that got boring, and I shouldn't be doing that anyway. It's like listening to a commercial pop radio station: No redeeming qualities whatsoever. It's about as pragmatic as sniffing glue. If it wasn't for some of the other users here, I simply wouldn't bother.

You have our blessing (none / 0) (#391)
by Emperor Rusty on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 05:37:59 PM EST

We approve of this message and exhort all of our loyal subjects to heed its words.
--------------------------------
Rusty I, Emperor of Kuro5hin, Protector of Scoop
hello (none / 1) (#394)
by ray eckson on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 08:35:01 PM EST

your account is gay as a fucking sausage twelve-pack


wampsy: hey ray why don't you start up a site. you could call it ray5.
rusty: I gotta fix that stupid cancel bug.
booger: How's that for daring to get ray eckson all sniffy, you cow?
poopy: Not that I'm gay or anything, but for you I might make an exception.
[ Parent ]
this is just some NIGGER BULLSHIT (1.00 / 12) (#395)
by wastedyears on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:01:02 AM EST

TO GET ANOTHER 5$ FROM THE ROFL KING?

WWW.ROFLKING.COM The King of wierd pictures.

Trolls (none / 0) (#396)
by Phusion on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:54:02 PM EST

The trolls come out for sure in this story, I mean, pretty much everyone who thinks this is a bad idea is the source of the problem. It's sad that a place I used to come to for at least a little interesting conversation has turned basically into AOL. I'm not going to stop visiting K5, but I just think a large chunk of the users are immature, racist idiots who should be removed. The Internet allows for easy, free speech-- some people are just morons and can only express hate or biggotry.. so.. well, fuck you, we don't want to scream in caps about niggers or talk about buttsecks, you're 12, deal with it.


Fighting The War, On Drugs
Smokedot.org
Drug Info, Rights, Laws, and Discussion.
Oh boy! (none / 1) (#397)
by Wain on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:42:22 AM EST

Damn, I can't decide whether you're trolling or serious...fuck me.

Oh well, just in case, the rest of my comment was as follows:

Another "LET'S GET RID OF THE TROLLS" diatribe...tl;dr

You do realize this is one of the longest running cliches of K5 yes?

Okay, here's the deal...
The problem with K5 isn't the trolls, it's the lack of content.  Now, some would argue that the trolls are the reason the main content providers left. This conveniently ignores the fact that the places they left to are all "newer and more exciting" places, with a completely different experience than K5.  While K5 has been left to stagnate.

Do trolls contribute to people not being around here?  Yes, absolutely...at the same time the trolling attracts members as well, several of which are content providers in their spare-time (it IS possible to be both).

Driving out the remaining trolls because their quality of post "isn't up to snuff" compared to the classic K5 users of the golden age will just eliminate two-thirds of the userbase and leave K5 a place a completely empty shell of a website.

K5 has been a bastion for freedom at times, and there is no reason why it cannot or should not continue to be.

If you want there to be decent content, and you want people to return to K5 and start reading and posting creative, intellectual things, then maybe you should actually post something worth reading for once instead of going on and on and on and on about how you're a badass special-ops murderer for hire who can't re-enter america because you wound-fucked a girl you later murdered and how you refuse to vote for Obama (without even acknowledging that you're not even an American), and spouting ill-conceived vitriol about how black people get the short end of the stick in this world but you've been rich before and will be again and then you'll get all the pussy you want because you're practically a fucking god and know everything about women, people, and humanity and nobody will ever dare fuck with you cause your an ex-mercenary.

Srsly, your posts are egomaniacal garbage, questionable in their truthfulness, and spew as much hatred and condemnation as those of us yelling "nigger nigger nigger" and hence, nobody reads them...and that's why nobody comes to K5 anymore.

Do you even realize how many people came to K5 for the occasional beeguy post?

Getting rid of the trolls isn't the solution, getting rid of the trolls will just kill what's left of K5.  The solution is to post something worth reading.  Remember peoples attitudes regarding trolls around here used to typically be one of two mindsets either that a) the content on here was worth putting up with them, or b) people liked coming here because you'd find any/every type of response possible(trolls included)...this is the freedom that came with K5, and it worked well so long as the system in place actually tried to keep itself looking fresh and new.

A simple solution (none / 0) (#400)
by Euan Fernsler on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 01:45:25 PM EST

I've seen a few comments along these lines, and here is mine.

I really like Kuro5hin.  I don't come often, and I don't usually post, but I like it here.  It's (mostly) adult and honorable.

Here is something I came up with for bad drivers.  Everyone is given a paintball gun.  If a driver is being a jerk, you can tag his car.  Cars with too many hits are pulled over by the cops.  Impractical but fun.

Here though it could work well - though it would take some programming work.

Everyone gets a set number of 'paintballs' per day/week/month/whatever.  If someone is being a racist or whatever, you can tag them.  If someone has been tagged enough, they get suspended for a time.

Of course this only works with some reasonable control over multiple accounts, and it is by no means perfect.

The best part here of course is that Rusty can also see who is throwing the paintballs around.

I dunno, maybe it'll help, maybe it won't.

Santih,
Euan

IGTT 10/10 (none / 0) (#403)
by zenador on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:42:28 AM EST

400+ comments is pretty fucking good nowadays.

woah (none / 0) (#406)
by etherdeath on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:46:39 AM EST

This site is still running?  A few years ago some active member here IM'd me and got upset when I didn't recognize him as someone who is well known here.

It's time to take Kuro5hin back from the trolls | 407 comments (389 topical, 18 editorial, 17 hidden)
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