Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
Time on Nader

By molo in MLP
Mon Oct 30, 2000 at 08:47:26 PM EST
Tags: Politics (all tags)
Politics

Time explores the significance of Nader in the presidential race here. The author gives a good overview of Nader, explaining some of his ideas and stances on the issues. The issue of voting in already locked-down states is explored as well ideas such as that of nadertrader.org.


I've already cast my vote (absentee ballot), but its encouraging to see third parties getting some recognition from the national press. The 4% Nader got in the latest poll is pretty damn close to the 5% needed for Green Party recognition.

According to the article, unlike other 3rd party candidates, Nader's rhetoric isn't reflecting the idea that he could be in the White House in 2 months, but rather that he is trying to drum up support for progressives in the mainstream, hopefully leading to a better showing in 2004. Will it work? What will the biggest campaign issues be in the 2004 election?

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Poll
What will be the biggest issue in the 2004 presidential debates?
o Economics 14%
o Health Care 6%
o Solcial Security 8%
o Defense 2%
o Personal Freedoms 32%
o Corporate Power 14%
o Campaign Finance Reform 6%
o Other 14%

Votes: 82
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o here.
o nadertrade r.org
o Also by molo


Display: Sort:
Time on Nader | 24 comments (16 topical, 8 editorial, 0 hidden)
Despite what they claim (2.50 / 6) (#1)
by porkchop_d_clown on Mon Oct 30, 2000 at 04:47:00 PM EST

Despite what they claim, I would be really suprised to find that organized vote-swapping was legal.... It just comes so close to the line.

I'm voting for Nader regardless. Given Gore's track record, I really can't see how people think he would be different from Bush anyway. (Yeah, I know, he claims to have very different positions. He's claimed so many things I don't know how people can keep them all straight.)



People who think "clown" is an insult have never met any.
Vote swap OK'ed by the DOJ (4.50 / 2) (#15)
by Potsy on Mon Oct 30, 2000 at 11:44:44 PM EST

According to this article on Salon, the U.S. Department of Justice has declared the organized vote swapping scheme legal. Relevant details are in the last paragraph, under the heading "Phone a friend".

[ Parent ]
Hrm (4.00 / 1) (#19)
by interiot on Tue Oct 31, 2000 at 09:56:09 AM EST

All that article says is
    The Justice Department reportedly has declared the vote-trading plan legal.
and doesn't explain further. But have a look at this MSNBC article that says:
    A spokesperson at the U.S. Justice Department, which investigates potential instances of voter fraud, said it is, since the sites "serve as a clearing house. There is no pecuniary exchange, and it is an agreement amongst private parties, no legal violation there in terms of violation fraud. It definitely is an innovative campaign technique, to say the least."
The law about voting says something about coercion, so apparently, giving someone money to vote counts as coercion (even though the briber can't verify the vote either way), but if a person enters into a consensual agreement with another US citizen, then it doesn't count as coercion...? That's my guess anyway.

I still wouldn't be surprised if these "quotes" from the DOJ aren't authentic.

[ Parent ]

Others on Nader... (2.50 / 8) (#3)
by Speare on Mon Oct 30, 2000 at 05:59:15 PM EST

An excerpt from Todd Gitlin's article in Salon:

    Nader's claim that he's not the spoiler is bad faith. Perhaps he knows it, perhaps not. But there is a deeper force at work. What is at work in the Naderite camp, what lies behind the fantasy that the masses hanker for radical change, is a purist approach to politics. There are Nader supporters who have urged Nader to drop his campaign in the states where he might throw the race to Gore. He's refused. He shows no inclination to deal. But deal-making is how politics happens.

    At bottom, Nader's all-or-nothing gambit is not politics, it is moral fundamentalism -- as if by venting one's anger, one were free to remake the world by willing it so, despite all those recalcitrant people who happen to live here.

    The arrogance of this "worsism" -- the worse, the better -- is chillingly expressed by a Nader voter in Portland, Ore., interviewed in Friday's New York Times: "If Bush gets in, I feel that it might bring things to a head much more quickly. Pollution's going to increase in the short term, but I think that will bring a lot more people into the environmental movement a lot more quickly. Sometimes you've got to hit bottom before you come back up." Notice how the means -- "a lot more people into the environmental movement" -- has become the end. Notice the spurious assumption that the masses will rise up if things come "to a head." It didn't happen after Reagan's depredations on the environment. It won't happen now.

From Eric Alterman's article in the Nation:

    [Nader's] nascent leftist movement has virtually no support among African-Americans, Latinos or Asian-Americans. It has no support among organized feminist groups, organized gay rights groups or mainstream environmental groups. To top it all off, it has no support in the national union movement. So Nader and company are building a nonblack, non-Latino, non-Asian, nonfeminist, nonenvironmentalist, nongay, non-working people's left: Now that really would be quite an achievement.

[Emphasis added.]


[ e d @ h a l l e y . c c ]
Emphasis (3.40 / 5) (#6)
by Wah on Mon Oct 30, 2000 at 06:17:53 PM EST

The emphasis you added just points out the silliness of that article. Which meaing of the word "nascent" did both you and the author choose to ignore? If you haven't followed any of Nader's career, he's been a consumer advocate, and while my dislike for that word grows daily, I think it applies to every social group you mentioned. And their platform also appeals to each, were they happy to look at it.

I'm not sure why you think wanting to win an election is some type of moral fundamentalism. You can't win if you aren't in it. Mobilizing third party voters to participate helps to show how much of the American population is unrepresented by our major parties. It helps to forment change. And if it takes four years in the bushes for more people to learn, so be it.
--
Fail to Obey?
[ Parent ]

Bad conclusions.. (3.50 / 4) (#7)
by molo on Mon Oct 30, 2000 at 06:18:02 PM EST

Quote #1 accepts the 'worse of two evils' idea as perfectly legitimate. I (and I think most 3rd party voters) reject that idea. It also takes one voter's comments as party rhetoric. That is a bad idea. It seems to me as if this author wants to jump all over Nader and is looking for excuses.

Quote #2 thinks organized support is meaningful. Organizations buy .. er .. support the candidates that they think will win. They support candidates in order to further their political influence, instead of supporting candidates which they actually believe in.

As for support among differing ethnicities, I'm not sure what the story is there, but it certainly doesn't make sense for the Greens to exclude them purposefully.

--
Whenever you walk by a computer and see someone using pico, be kind. Pause for a second and remind yourself that: "There, but for the grace of God, go I." -- Harley Hahn
[ Parent ]

Those groups are locked in elsewhere (none / 0) (#18)
by Potsy on Tue Oct 31, 2000 at 05:19:28 AM EST

The groups the author mentioned (gay, feminist, black, latino, etc.) all have invested their resources elsewhere, namely, the Democratic party. They've chosen their horse, and they're continuing to back it. If they do come over to the Green party at some point, it will likely be en masse, not piecemeal. Just because they haven't done it yet doesn't mean some of them aren't thinking about it.

[ Parent ]
An interesting article... (3.33 / 3) (#9)
by skim123 on Mon Oct 30, 2000 at 07:15:30 PM EST

Where Ralph Went Wrong - Nader is hurting not just Al Gore, but all the causes he has championed over the years. Worth a read...

Money is in some respects like fire; it is a very excellent servant but a terrible master.
PT Barnum


I can't wait until next wednesday (3.50 / 4) (#10)
by ribone on Mon Oct 30, 2000 at 07:41:40 PM EST

I'm so tired of hearing people talk about how Gore is being hurt by Nader. Who cares? Is Nader running for Gore? What is wrong with everybody? Nader is running for President and should do everything thing he can to win on his own. Just as Bush and Gore should, not to mention all the other independents out there.

I could care less if Al loses because of Nader. If it proves to our politicians that the people are fed up with the current party structure I'm all for it. If in four years a huge influx of independents come in and steal gobs of senate and house seats, I'll be cheering them along.

I happen to believe that Al Gore sparked all this nonsense off last week and since has had his people politicking for him all over the place. It's ridiculous. I hope he loses just for trying to play like that. Vote swapping and fear mongering is not what a good leader is supposed to encourage...

Nader is standing up for his campaign. If he were to cave in and try to help Gore out I would consider him spineless. Besides, Nader, last time I checked, wasn't a Democrat, so why exactly, would he give a flying f*ck? If you choose to answer at all, please don't try the "he should care about the overall good" nonsense. Everybody knows that's not how politics works.



[ Parent ]
Democrats Astroturfing (4.33 / 3) (#11)
by YellowBook on Mon Oct 30, 2000 at 07:54:13 PM EST

I happen to believe that Al Gore sparked all this nonsense off last week and since has had his people politicking for him all over the place.

It's worse than that. The California Democratic party has started an "astroturf" campaign to try to get Nader to drop out of the race. They've been forwarding an email urging people to write to Nader to tell him to take a fall.

If anyone didn't read the Time article linked to above, go read it. It's the perfect example of how the Media supports the single party system in the U.S. It's almost impossible to find an impartial media outlet on this -- even NPR is out stumping vigorously for Gore on their news programs.



[ Parent ]
.. (3.00 / 5) (#12)
by Nyarlathotep on Mon Oct 30, 2000 at 08:15:17 PM EST

If you choose to answer at all, please don't try the "he should care about the overall good" nonsense. I think he dose care about the overall good, but the overall good is not served by the Democrats becoming more and more like the Republicans. Bill Clinton is a brilliant politician and has done a wonderful job of stealing the Republicans thunder on their own issues, but this has lead to a rightward shift within the democratic party. I think the best we can hope for would be for the Greens to get 15% of the vote, the Libertariansto get like 4% of the vote, for the Republicans to win the election, and for Shrub toreally fuck up the economy within a year (by firing Greenspan or something). We would have 4 years o a crappy Republican president, all the republican congress members would get kicked out because of the economic problems, and Nader (or someone like him) could come riding in to save the day in 2004 on the Democratic ticket. Plus, the Republicans would realize that they need to keep the Libertarian side of their party happy, so they might conceded on more social issues. Unfortunatly, there are way to many if's there for that to happen, but it's a nice though. Shurb causing a minor depression wouldn't really hurt us for very long with people like Greenspan to fix it.
Campus Crusade for Cthulhu -- it found me!
[ Parent ]
Unsafe in any state (3.00 / 1) (#16)
by driptray on Tue Oct 31, 2000 at 02:16:09 AM EST

I think the best we can hope for would be ... for the Republicans to win the election, and for Shrub to really fuck up the economy within a year (by firing Greenspan or something). We would have 4 years of a crappy Republican president, all the republican congress members would get kicked out because of the economic problems, and Nader (or someone like him) could come riding in to save the day in 2004 on the Democratic ticket.

I have to agree with the Salon skewering of this "worse is better" theory. Do you really think that making things worse will pave the way for a better future? Isn't it more likely that people will accept that worse future, and that it will serve as a basis for making an even worse future. Look at Reagan's legacy - did his making things worse lead to some better land that we currently inhabit? Nope, it just made things worse.

Face it, worse is worse.

But I don't agree with the basic thrust of the Salon piece linked to above. Nader is safe in a bunch of states, as most people agree. Salon is really on a big anti-Nader, pump up Gore thing at the moment.

Of course if you're a conservative, or a Republican, or whatever, you'll find all my assumptions about what is "worse" to be completely wrong. Sorry about that.


--
We brought the disasters. The alcohol. We committed the murders. - Paul Keating
[ Parent ]
I'm not a conservative, but... (none / 0) (#24)
by Matt Hall on Sat Nov 04, 2000 at 12:23:51 AM EST

I'm quite happy with the current state of the economy. Poverty's down to its lowest in 30 years, unemployment is at a mere 3.9%, and the economy is chugging along pretty steadily. What more could you ask for?

[ Parent ]
Propaganda... (4.50 / 2) (#14)
by carb0n on Mon Oct 30, 2000 at 10:40:12 PM EST

Hot damn, thats a bunch of slanted propaganda being slung around there.

I'm not too into the american political happenings, but I think its quite obvious that Nader knows he's an underdog, and the obvious pressure to "give in" and forward his voters onto Gore seems to be a tactic played by those controlling the media. After all, who wants to vote for a "loosing party"? Of course, if you spin it right, he looks like the upcoming rebel, and who doesnt want to vote for the upcoming rebel? :)

And the fact that the damn movie in the left column apears to be a .asx (media player?) file, but the !@#$%$ javascript doesnt work in Netscape is just a little too over the top. MSnbc tactics I'm sure...

Something I dont see mentioned much here (that I'm sure would appeal to many) is the Noam Chomsky archive. He's seems to share many views of Nader, and is a refreshing joy to listen to. Oh BTW, take a look at the audio archives, if you can discern a pattern to the .ram files, you might be in for a treat :) Its at: http://www.zmag.org/chomsky.

You south of the border are lucky - those of us in Canada dont have the luxury of a Green Party. And this Canadian Alliance is another "new boss, same as the old boss".

"Raise the stakes then bring em down,
If they fail to obey ... if they fail to obey" -- Pearl Jam

greens, eh? (none / 0) (#23)
by 575 on Thu Nov 02, 2000 at 03:10:32 AM EST

the canadians
will get their own green party
when they make their own

[ Parent ]
Nader on Larry King Live (none / 0) (#20)
by molo on Tue Oct 31, 2000 at 11:00:45 AM EST

This CNN article is a summary of Nader's appearance last night on Larry King Live.

--
Whenever you walk by a computer and see someone using pico, be kind. Pause for a second and remind yourself that: "There, but for the grace of God, go I." -- Harley Hahn
Time on Nader | 24 comments (16 topical, 8 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!