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More News/Updates on National ID Cards

By hillct in MLP
Sun Oct 21, 2001 at 10:40:26 PM EST
Tags: Freedom (all tags)
Freedom

Larry Ellison's National ID Card proposal is gaining ground again according to the National Review. Ellison met with Attorney General John Ashcroft on Tuesday raising the prospect that the Bush administration is still contemplating the adoption of a national ID card.

Ellison is quoted in the San Jose Mercury News / SiliconValley.com:

We are in the process of putting a proposal together and analyzing what it would take to get something running in a matter of a small number of months, like three months, 90 days
This, after the Bush administration ruled out the issuance of national ID cards as did the British Government, back in late September and early October, before Larry Ellison's arguments in their favor. Ellison's comments have been discussed before as were Scott McNealy's inflammatory comments but the recent developments make it appear that a national ID card system is closer than we would have expected. Let's just hope that Alan Dershowitz doesn't get his wish that the cards should include biometrics Information.


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Poll
Do we need National ID Cards?
o Yes, definately 4%
o Yes, but no biometrics data 6%
o No, they won't prevent Terrorism 47%
o No, I value my privacy 41%

Votes: 63
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o National ID Card proposal is gaining ground
o National Review
o San Jose Mercury News / SiliconValley.com
o as did the British Government
o Larry Ellison's arguments in their favor
o Scott McNealy's inflammatory comments
o Alan Dershowitz
o the cards should include biometrics Information
o Also by hillct


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More News/Updates on National ID Cards | 12 comments (10 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)
The thought of National ID cards... (2.00 / 2) (#2)
by anthrem on Sat Oct 20, 2001 at 06:28:53 PM EST

disgusts me. I guess after the terrorists have killed 5,000 people, the government is going to take care of the rest of us.



Disclaimer: I am a Buddhist. I am a Social Worker. Filter all written above throught that.
I'm baffled by this (5.00 / 4) (#4)
by Philipp on Sat Oct 20, 2001 at 08:32:46 PM EST

As a legal alien here in the US, I am baffled by this discussion about a national ID card. While you can't even buy a beer without showing your drivers license and everybody tracks you by your social security number, somehow a national ID card (which common in basically every other country) is seen as a huge violation of privacy. I don't get it.

alias kn 'killall -9 netscape-communicator'
Not so simple (none / 0) (#5)
by strlen on Sat Oct 20, 2001 at 11:26:58 PM EST

Well, I do have a trouble with it. I'm a legal alien as well, and I'm a perfectly law abiding citizen, and I don't feel like I need to be stored in a central database and have each of my action monitored. When I go to a bar and buy a beer , the bar doesn't write me down and send what sort of beer I had to the government. The reason most countries have them is because in most countries only a minority has a driver license. For some reason, I don't want the government to know where I took a piss. It's known to monitor dissidents, and as a non-citizen (and especially if I didn't have a green card, although I now do) -- i would feel much less secure voicing a dissidending or unpopular opinion.

--
[T]he strongest man in the world is he who stands most alone. - Henrik Ibsen.
[ Parent ]
Wrong information (none / 0) (#8)
by svampa on Sun Oct 21, 2001 at 10:16:10 AM EST

The reason most countries have them is because in most countries only a minority has a driver license.

That's wrong, I'm from Spain (south of Europe) we have ID card, and almost everybody older than 18 has driver license.

BTW, I don't see any difference between an Official ID card and an ID card in fact like dirver licence or any other. They ask me when I go to the bank to withdawn money, when I pay taxes etc., nothing special.

I think USA citizens should be worried by things like watching e-mail without court control.



[ Parent ]
Yeah but (2.50 / 2) (#9)
by strlen on Sun Oct 21, 2001 at 12:16:16 PM EST

The US government also is much more willing to spy on its citizen, and has been doing so for quite a while (Echelon etc..). We've had a history of persecution of dissidents -- something that Spain hasn't had since Franco (which was while under a completely different setup of government): McCarthyism, persecution of various civil rights leaders and anti-war protestors, etc.. all of it during both Republican and Democrat administrations, and all of it with our constitution not being suspended.

It's pretty clear, that the ID cards would be linked to a national database, and at some places I suspect they'll be used to record our movements about the country -- which is what I've heard Larry Ellison wants to do in case of immigrants (in a TV interview). As of now, I no longer even feel secure posting comments on here, knowing that 90% of the nation disagrees with everything I say, and that as an immigrant I have no rights.



--
[T]he strongest man in the world is he who stands most alone. - Henrik Ibsen.
[ Parent ]
Jail Time??? (none / 0) (#6)
by Blarney on Sun Oct 21, 2001 at 04:32:43 AM EST

The only way to enforce carrying of an ID card is to institute penalties for failure to comply with the law. Even if small monetary fines are initially imposed, there will be a hard core of folks who will refuse to carry the cards or will keep forgetting their wallet. An escalating scale of penalties, as is usual with most crimes. Eventually, somebody will end up in jail for it.

Funny, isn't it, how none of the National ID supporters mention the criminal penalties that they'll impose to make sure the card gets carried?

Mandatory carrying? (none / 0) (#10)
by Your Mom on Sun Oct 21, 2001 at 04:05:01 PM EST

Why would there have to be penalties for it? When presented with a situation where you need the card to verify that you are who you say you are, you either have the card, or you don't complete whatever business you have. I just don't envision cops standing on street corners ramdomly checking to see if you have your ID like some sort if hall pass writ large (but maybe I'm a little overtrusting).

--
"As far as I'm concerned, Osama bin Laden can eat a dick." -trhurler
[ Parent ]
Hmmm (none / 0) (#11)
by IntlHarvester on Sun Oct 21, 2001 at 04:48:32 PM EST

I though that there were already laws on the books that required you to present identification when requested. At least on the state and local level. I would guess that it's a misdemeanor offence, but enough to detain you if that's what their intention is.

[ Parent ]
Depends.. (none / 0) (#12)
by Sawzall on Sun Oct 21, 2001 at 06:12:30 PM EST

In the US, if driving, you can be required to present the card that allows you to drive. Now the fun part..

Accourding to the SCOTUS, if Mr Law Enforcement asks you for ID while just walking down the street, committing a crime commonly known as being black in a black neighborhood after dark, you can legally tell him no. For exercising this right, you will likely get detained for something, cuffed and thrown into the car for some length of time.

Now I have had this same thing applied to me for being white in a "black" part of town. They wanted the ID. Quick choice - give it to them and get to go home that night, or refuse and get to have someone bail me out for some BS charge. That unless I had lots of money and time, I would likely not beat.

Freedom of movement was one of the rights that we demanded at the start of this country - and have insisted that other country honor for its citizens. It is slowly being eroded away - this card would just add some grease to the slope. I somehow hope that our Congress has enough good sense not to pass the 21st Century Enabling Acts.. But it looks more doubtful every day.

[ Parent ]

ID Documents in South Africa (5.00 / 1) (#7)
by MyrdemInggala on Sun Oct 21, 2001 at 07:34:58 AM EST

I find this discussion interesting. I don't know the details about the way identity documents work in various countries around the world, but I've always assumed that everyone uses a system vaguely like the one used in the country where I currently live.

I'm a South African citizen, and like most South African citizens, I have an ID book. It's small, it's green and I hardly ever use it, so it spends most of its time in the back pocket of my moonbag, getting rather squashed.

It contains the following:

  • My name, place of birth, date of birth and photograph
  • Record of voting (currently blank)
  • Driver's licence (currently blank; I think this is superfluous now that we have cards for that)
  • Firearm licences (blank)
  • A folded piece of paper in the back sleeve with my current address (need to update that)

Nothing particularly sinister, and, like I said, I hardly ever use it. Young people who may or may not be minors are (theoretically) asked to show their IDs before being allowed into a nightclub where alcohol is sold. I most recently showed my ID at a bank, while cancelling an old ATM card and getting a new one. You need to show your ID when you vote. That's about it. There is certainly no law which states that you must have your ID on you at all times (that I know of - if there is, I've never encountered it). It's unlikely that such a law will ever be implemented for historical reasons - during the apartheid era, every non-white person was required to carry a pass card. If they were caught without one they were arrested and imprisoned.

So I have nothing against ID documents in principle - it all depends on what your government does with them. If I had to show mine for arbitrary reasons all the time, I'd probably be pissed off.



-- 22. No matter how tempted I am with the prospect of unlimited power, I will not consume any energy field bigger than my head. -- Evil Overlord List
More News/Updates on National ID Cards | 12 comments (10 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)
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