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Kidneys for sale

By Osama Bin Laden in MLP
Mon May 07, 2001 at 09:06:11 AM EST
Tags: Freedom (all tags)
Freedom

The Village Voice has published a long, disturbing article about the trade of executed prisoner's organs in China.


A few of its revelations:
  • Transplants occur without the consent of the executed prisoner or his family.
  • Organ harvesting is sometimes performed before the prisoner is dead. Sometimes organ removal is used as the means of execution.
  • Some of the organs are transplanted to U.S. residents, who then require follow-up treatment at American hospitals (sometimes at taxpayer expense).
  • When the organs are sold, the profits are distributed to judges, prison officials, and the hospitals performing the transplant.

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Kidneys for sale | 30 comments (21 topical, 9 editorial, 0 hidden)
Made in China (3.45 / 11) (#1)
by onyxruby on Sun May 06, 2001 at 03:14:16 PM EST

Gives a whole new meaning to "made in China".

The moon is covered with the results of astronomical odds.

Disturbing. (3.00 / 4) (#2)
by Crashnbur on Sun May 06, 2001 at 03:15:18 PM EST

Yes, quite disturbing. Confidential to self: no more transplants. Great as an MLP article, but I think that fleshing this out could make an excellent OP-ED or Freedom/Politics article as well, if anyone were brave enough to offer their interpretation. :-) Just a thought.

crash.neotope.com


Practical application (4.25 / 8) (#4)
by onyxruby on Sun May 06, 2001 at 03:36:58 PM EST

From what the article said, in Belgium it is implied that you consent to organ donation if you die unless you or your family explicitly say otherwise. Not a bad idea, but I shudder to think if something like that could persuade a doctor not try quite as hard to save a life. Could the temptation to let one person pass away to save several others lives be too great?

The other thing I have to wonder about is what would happen if the judges, hospitals, and prison staff were brought up on corruption charges? Could they get their organs offered for donation? Sounds like justice to me. I find amusing how capitalistic China's Communist government really is. I wonder how far that government will push it's citizens before they finally decide they have enough and revolt?

The moon is covered with the results of astronomical odds.

Sweden is the same it think.. (3.60 / 5) (#5)
by mikael_j on Sun May 06, 2001 at 03:47:23 PM EST

I believe it's the same in Sweden, not saying no means yes...

/Mikael Jacobson
We give a bad name to the internet in general. - Rusty
[ Parent ]
Hola! (1.50 / 8) (#8)
by Signal 11 on Sun May 06, 2001 at 04:27:58 PM EST

Hey onyx... I thought your 'puter was busted! :)


--
Society needs therapy. It's having
trouble accepting itself.
[ Parent ]
China (2.83 / 6) (#7)
by Signal 11 on Sun May 06, 2001 at 04:26:17 PM EST

Hey, wasn't that the same thing the Republicans wanted to do in the United States? I've heard of atleast a couple cases in this country where a death sentence was commuted to life or less when a prisoner agreed to donate bone marrow or organs (liver + kidney, esp). Such things are voluntary, and the cases have been low profile, but vaguely similar activities are occuring in this country as well. Sadly, neither the United States nor China has yet listened to the nearly universal advice given by the psychological instutitions - which is that punishment is not an effective deterrent.

However, I'll point out that the United States, unlike China, is not engaged in show trials and mass arrests to meet quota. Sometimes I don't wonder if China isn't persuing some warped kind of Stalinist policy...


--
Society needs therapy. It's having
trouble accepting itself.

psychological institutions apparently: (3.25 / 4) (#10)
by Canimal on Sun May 06, 2001 at 06:31:46 PM EST

the nearly universal advice given by the psychological instutitions - which is that punishment is not an effective deterrent.

Funny, I have quite clear memories of prospective punishment being an effective deterrent from my own childhood. From what I can tell from babysitting my friend's kids, it appears to be effective even unto the next generation.

Matt

[ Parent ]

RE: psych institutions (none / 0) (#18)
by Signal 11 on Mon May 07, 2001 at 02:05:19 AM EST

Funny, I have quite clear memories of prospective punishment being an effective deterrent from my own childhood. From what I can tell from babysitting my friend's kids, it appears to be effective even unto the next generation.

Remove the threat and see how long the behavior continues. Now, try the same on a rewards-based model. The police can't be everywhere (like a parent can)...


--
Society needs therapy. It's having
trouble accepting itself.
[ Parent ]

Punishment (2.00 / 1) (#14)
by finkployd on Sun May 06, 2001 at 11:04:44 PM EST

Punishment is the only deterrent. It is quite effective on children and adults alike.

Finkployd
Sig: (This will get posted after your comments)
[ Parent ]
RE: Punishment (none / 0) (#17)
by Signal 11 on Mon May 07, 2001 at 02:04:19 AM EST

Punishment is the only deterrent. It is quite effective on children and adults alike

Never heard of a rewards-based model, have we?


--
Society needs therapy. It's having
trouble accepting itself.
[ Parent ]

Good Boy - Here is your 2 cents! (5.00 / 1) (#20)
by nospoon on Mon May 07, 2001 at 06:34:16 AM EST

The Judge says 'We see here that you did not kill anyone this year. For that we let you live! You did not steal anything this year, and for that we will not cut off your hands. You did not rape anyone this year, and for that we will not cut off your ...'

Sounds like a reward based system to me.



[ Parent ]
Rewards (5.00 / 1) (#22)
by finkployd on Mon May 07, 2001 at 07:14:58 AM EST

Rewards based systems do not deter. Positive motivation can encourage specific behavior, but fail pretty badly at discouraging specific behavior. This is especially true in children (in my experience) where attempting to use positive motivation to deter behavior seems to cause the child to use the bad behavior to get rewards (ie, do something bad, get yelled at, then be good in order to get rewards). Plus the lesson that specific behavior is bad or unacceptabe is not learned when there is no negative reinforcement associated with it.

Finkployd
Sig: (This will get posted after your comments)
[ Parent ]
donation compensation (3.00 / 5) (#9)
by rebelcool on Sun May 06, 2001 at 04:48:18 PM EST

i bet donations would be alot more popular if the govt paid you for it. Ie, "we'll give you $100 if you agree to donate organs when you die". It'd be incredibly popular. As long as a good job was made letting the person know that it is a legally binding contract, and no they cannot get out of it without returning the $100, I think it would be very effective.

COG. Build your own community. Free, easy, powerful. Demo site

Why Are People Hesitant to Donate Their Organs? (3.50 / 4) (#12)
by AzTex on Sun May 06, 2001 at 09:06:46 PM EST

When I got my driver's license I didn't hesitate to sign the back of it donating any needed organs.  I didn't even give it a second of thought.  Once I am dead, I'll certainly have no use for them.  But someone else might.

Why do most people seem have a problem with this?



solipsism: I'm always here. But you sometimes go away.
** AzTex **

Problems with organ donation (4.00 / 1) (#16)
by sigwinch on Mon May 07, 2001 at 01:16:42 AM EST

Why do most people seem have a problem with this?
Treatment of patients is a cost center for emergency rooms, especially if you have no insurance card. Harvesting of organs is a profit center, especially if you have a signed organ donor card. You do the math.

--
I don't want the world, I just want your half.
[ Parent ]

Got any statistics or evidence? (none / 0) (#28)
by ttfkam on Mon May 07, 2001 at 01:00:18 PM EST

Nice theory, but with the ability to sue a doctor for malpractice (harvesting organs from someone who can be saved definitely falls under this category in addition to issues related to 1st degree murder) kind of offsets the potential for momentary monetary gain.

Call me an idealist, but I believe that there are very few doctors who would let one patient die just to get the money for a transplanted organ that may or may not save the recipient (rejection, infection, etc.).

Also, a good reason why the cost of a transplanted organ is so high is that the supply is so low. If you want there to be a disincentive to this apparently soul-less money-making scheme, put the dot on your driver's license for organ donation and get a few million other people to do the same. If the supply is higher, the price gets lower.

The more people donate, the less chance that the scenario you imply will come to pass.

If I'm made in God's image then God needs to lay off the corn chips and onion dip. Get some exercise, God! - Tatarigami
[ Parent ]
religious people (none / 0) (#27)
by alprazolam on Mon May 07, 2001 at 12:56:09 PM EST

people who believe in an afterlife often fear that they will spend it without organs. for instance people don't donate corneas because they are afraid they won't be able to see heaven. sort of disappointing.

[ Parent ]
i think your missing the point (1.25 / 4) (#19)
by Prophet themusicgod1 on Mon May 07, 2001 at 02:23:35 AM EST

just becuase we are next door neighbors with hitler dosnt necesarily mean that there is no other "evil" in the world... really you guys!
"I suspect the best way to deal with procrastination is to put off the procrastination itself until later. I've been meaning to try this, but haven't gotten around to it yet."swr
Eeeek.. (2.00 / 1) (#23)
by bsdave on Mon May 07, 2001 at 08:17:15 AM EST

Using organ removal as a means of execution?!

Don't get me wrong here, but in my view that's pretty damn barbaric, so what -- are they concious throughout the whole ordeal?
--
Daaave

anesthesia (4.00 / 1) (#25)
by Osama Bin Laden on Mon May 07, 2001 at 08:32:55 AM EST

are they concious throughout the whole ordeal?

According to the article, no, the prisoners are given anesthesia before being executed.

ObL

[ Parent ]

Rejection? (4.00 / 1) (#26)
by supine on Mon May 07, 2001 at 09:07:34 AM EST

I noticed that a short note was made of who ended up paying for the anti-rejection drugs required to help the patient prevent their own immune system from destroying the transplanted organ.

However, organ transplants are usually only done on closely matched patients as this is the primary factor in preventing rejection of the organ. The drugs just aren't good enough to offer much hope for unmatched patients.

What are the chances that they do matching for these people? Are they selling $10,000 worth of false hope?

my 2cents
marty


--
"No GUI for you! Use lynx!!!, Come back, One year!" -- /avant
Kidneys for sale | 30 comments (21 topical, 9 editorial, 0 hidden)
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