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[P]
Virtual fish

By spiralx in MLP
Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 11:44:21 AM EST
Tags: Internet (all tags)
Internet

Californian company DALi Inc are attempting to create an online "ocean" called DALiWorld filled with Artificial Life fish connected across a peer-to-peer network to client's computers.


DALiWorld's ecology is modelled upon that of the Indonesian Ocean's and supports several genus of fish commonly found there. All of these creatures have genetic and biochemical information which influences their behaviour - they can react to external events, learn from past experiences and adapt to new situations. The fish themselves are able to move from one user's system to the next across the DALiWorld network, although each comes with its own passport specifying it's birth place and time and creator.

Stories about DALiWorld can be found at BBC News, Wired, Business Week and LA Tech News.

The DALiWorld site is here, and offers downloads for Windows, Linux, Solaris and AIX. There's also screenshots and more information about the entire system.

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Virtual fish | 40 comments (37 topical, 3 editorial, 0 hidden)
These so-called 'fish'... (3.00 / 4) (#1)
by elenchos on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 09:29:22 AM EST

...They're actually just code, of course, which represents fish. So the "fish" don't actually go from one machine to another over the network. The code does. Nor do the "fish" reproduce or eat other "fish" or whatever. It is actually code reproducing itself, or eliminating other code. Their idea is to have many computers with code on them that is capable of doing things analogus to what living things do: move around, reproduce, eat, die, maybe evolve.

So. That is different from a virus or worm how? Better graphics?

Just wondering, that's all. It sounds really cool.

Adequacy.org

Hence the "virtual" part :) (4.00 / 1) (#2)
by spiralx on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 09:35:00 AM EST

So. That is different from a virus or worm how? Better graphics?

Well I guess the real difference is the fact that it's over its own P2P network rather than hijacking existing systems.

Just wondering, that's all. It sounds really cool.

It does - if you read the technology section of the website they've done loads of different things which are interesting, such as having the fish drawn based on the physical data that specifies it, which in turns come from its genetic data and so on. Not Earth shattering, but pretty nifty :)

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

Well, so I exaggerate just a little... (3.00 / 1) (#8)
by elenchos on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 10:20:33 AM EST

Just thinking out loud I guess. I remember something about some of the earlier artificial life programs that used randomly self-modifiying code had to be quarantined for fear of creating malicious code.

This isn't really that different than the typical worm that we see now. Nobody hijacked all those machines with Outlook on them -- it was installed on purpose. DALi would be the same thing. You set out to do something you think is cool, and in so doing you create a wonderful cross-platform networked ecosystem for self-perpetuating code to flourish. Anyway, I think at some point spontaneously created viruses may exist on computers, and it seems natural to think that they would start with a project like this one.

Adequacy.org
[ Parent ]

Viruses (4.00 / 1) (#11)
by spiralx on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 10:32:26 AM EST

This isn't really that different than the typical worm that we see now. Nobody hijacked all those machines with Outlook on them -- it was installed on purpose. DALi would be the same thing. You set out to do something you think is cool, and in so doing you create a wonderful cross-platform networked ecosystem for self-perpetuating code to flourish.

True, but lets face it, Outlook goes out of its way to provide easy access to handy routines for creating emails, accessing address books, reading files, and formatting hard drives, whereas this kind of dedicated network is a lot less vulnerable. I don't recall and Napster exploits after all.

However as you say, with genetically modified code as occurs here, I suppose it is vaguely possible, if highly unlikely and dependent on design flaws.

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

Honors CS 2 (4.00 / 1) (#3)
by Merk00 on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 09:36:02 AM EST

My Honors CS 2 class was trying to do pretty much the same thing for our final project last winter. It was going to use Java on various computers to draw fish on the screen and allow them to move from computer to computer. The professor eventually ended the project without us completing because of time and difficulty but it was definately a cool idea.

------
"At FIRST we see a world where science and technology are celebrated, where kids think science is cool and dream of becoming science and technology heroes."
- FIRST Mission

How long to predators? (3.00 / 2) (#5)
by Vulch on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 10:13:56 AM EST

I wonder just how long it will be before someone creates a school of barracuda and turns them loose? The BBC article mentioned that similar previous schemes had foundered because to many predators were created.

Anthony

Foundered (4.00 / 1) (#16)
by jabber on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 11:59:13 AM EST

Shouldn't that be 'floundered'? It just seems more appropriate, don't you think?

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"
[ Parent ]

Just for the halibut.... (3.00 / 1) (#18)
by Elkor on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 01:05:54 PM EST

I challenge you to the Fish Slapping Dance?

Regards,
Elkor


"I won't tell you how to love God if you don't tell me how to love myself."
-Margo Eve
[ Parent ]
You're being shellfish! (4.00 / 1) (#20)
by jabber on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 01:27:28 PM EST

It says that the page is unavailable... Are you keeping it to yourself?

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"
[ Parent ]

Oh, clam it. (4.00 / 1) (#21)
by Elkor on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 03:31:28 PM EST

The link worked for me earlier.

It is a (very poor resolution) avi of the skit.

Regards,
Elkor


"I won't tell you how to love God if you don't tell me how to love myself."
-Margo Eve
[ Parent ]
To see the geocities link you seek... (none / 0) (#38)
by eightball on Wed Aug 15, 2001 at 09:32:29 PM EST

You must be coming from a geocities link...

In other words, go here

And since this is not a directory link, paste this line:

http://www.geocities.com/johangambolputy/fish.avi

...in the address line and you will get the file..

[ Parent ]
Licensing Terms, alternatives (4.00 / 1) (#7)
by codemonkey_uk on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 10:18:37 AM EST

From their licence agreement:
You may not download this software if you work for a competitor of DALi, Inc., or are under non-disclosure agreement to any competitor of DALi. You may request a waiver of this clause by writing to us and explaining the circumstances.
So, as I work for Creature Labs I can't even look at it.

If you want to play a free massive multiplayer alife sim like this go to http://ds.creatures.net, where you'll also find 100s of registered users to actually interact with!
---
Thad
"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way." - Bertrand Russell

So let me get this straight (3.00 / 1) (#14)
by spiralx on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 11:00:07 AM EST

If you want to play a free massive multiplayer alife sim like this go to http://ds.creatures.net, where you'll also find 100s of registered users to actually interact with!

Okay, not the easiest of websites to find information on. So you can download Docking Station from the site, run it without needing Creatures 3, and play Creatures on a spaceship over the internet? Call me stupid, but the website was very little help...

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

In a word: Yes (none / 0) (#15)
by codemonkey_uk on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 11:21:04 AM EST

First of all you have to Log on, to orJoin the Creatures Network. But don't worry, we're not evil. :)
---
Thad
"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way." - Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]
Download address (2.00 / 1) (#10)
by tjh on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 10:23:27 AM EST

For those who don't want to give their details, you can download it here.

Download address (2.00 / 1) (#12)
by nospoon on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 10:55:53 AM EST

And for windows 2000 users go: here



[ Parent ]
Hasn't this been done academically? (4.00 / 1) (#13)
by kmon on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 10:59:01 AM EST

I seem to recall talking to some CS majors (of which I am one) at my school about three years ago, and hearing almost exactly this same spiel. I remember that the system was to be written in Java, that fish were to live on the network. I didn't hear any details about them reproducing or anything, but I figure the project wouldn't have been very interesting or complicated if they weren't.

Anyways, I hope this company is one (or a bunch) of those guys, or that they developed the idea independently. Otherwise, it sucks to rip off someone else's ideas, then make people sign an NDA about it.
ad hoc, ad hominem, ad infinitum!
Not 3 Years Ago (3.00 / 1) (#17)
by Merk00 on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 12:18:19 PM EST

We tried it last year. I don't believe it had been done before but we didn't actually ever get it done (professor's fault). See here.

------
"At FIRST we see a world where science and technology are celebrated, where kids think science is cool and dream of becoming science and technology heroes."
- FIRST Mission
[ Parent ]

done before (none / 0) (#33)
by codemonkey_uk on Wed Aug 15, 2001 at 04:19:18 AM EST

Creature Labs have been doing it for years. Check out Docking Station if your interested.
---
Thad
"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way." - Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]
Boston Computer Museum (2.00 / 1) (#36)
by Merk00 on Wed Aug 15, 2001 at 08:47:27 AM EST

After pointing it out to the professor who ran the project, he apparently got the idea from the Boston Computer Museum. He hasn't seen it personally but had heard of it. It's not a particularly innovative idea but still pretty cool.

------
"At FIRST we see a world where science and technology are celebrated, where kids think science is cool and dream of becoming science and technology heroes."
- FIRST Mission
[ Parent ]

hmm.. (none / 0) (#39)
by kmon on Sat Aug 18, 2001 at 12:51:57 PM EST

Hmm. I distinctly remember some kids from CSH talking about it when I was first year. I'm fourth now, so it wasn't last year. Was that a class at rit? We never did anything so interesting in Eiffel!
ad hoc, ad hominem, ad infinitum!
[ Parent ]
Tierra? (5.00 / 1) (#30)
by Biff Cool on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 05:14:51 PM EST

This reminds me alot of a modified version of the Tierra Project.

Anyone know if that's still around?


My ass. It's code, with pictures of fish attached. Get over it. --trhurler


[ Parent ]
I confess (4.00 / 5) (#19)
by trhurler on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 01:21:00 PM EST

I don't get it. What is even remotely interesting about this? People have had programs that move data around a network for a long time, and programs that move pieces of themselves around, which this does not actually appear to do in any sophisticated way, have been around for longer than most of you probably realize(see the network extensible windowing system, by James Gosling, for an example.) Some of them, unlike this rather pointless security risk, actually do something useful.

"Oh, but they're represented by pictures of FISH! This is artificial LIFE," you say.

My ass. It's code, with pictures of fish attached. Get over it.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

you miss the obvious, child (1.00 / 2) (#22)
by Anonymous Moron on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 04:15:07 PM EST

it's interesting because it's fishies.

you see, the children of this age have difficulty interacting with anything else that is actually alive. so the obvious alternative is to make life that does not need to be externally sustained (because otherwise it would die from neglect from socially inept techies). so bored techies who failed at having home aquariums (what's ph? so they eat other fish sometimes?) now want a universe that is self sustaining so they don't feel guilt when they die this time. they make it seem like they are all in it together and baboom! we have something that everyone runs "because it brings everyone together" somehow.

it's just assinine self centered stupidity of children with toys too bored to use their talent for the betterment of anything other than their own happiness, which is just the same as all the other entertainment companies. children who never grew up to become responsible adults who actually participate in this capitalist country that no one cares to know about so they become this fancy libertarian bullshit to undermine the whole goddamn country their fathers helped build and was working fine until they put their peanut butter and jelly covered fingers into the wine.

the country is going to hell in a handbasket because of slacking asses like those that made this thing and all anyone does about it is say "oh cool man that's so interesting" while doped up on weed and hammering away at another pointless distraction.

get to work hippies, ya damn slackers.

Blah Blah Blah
[ Parent ]

Er... (4.00 / 3) (#23)
by trhurler on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 04:28:27 PM EST

it's just assinine self centered stupidity of children with toys too bored to use their talent for the betterment of anything other than their own happiness
I'd think network fishtanks would be considerably less interesting to work on than many of the world's "real problems."
children who never grew up to become responsible adults who actually participate in this capitalist country that no one cares to know about so they become this fancy libertarian bullshit to undermine the whole goddamn country their fathers helped build and was working fine until they put their peanut butter and jelly covered fingers into the wine.
Perhaps you haven't noticed, but the decline of the US has pretty much paralleled its adoption of increasingly left wing political agendas. I don't doubt that some of these kiddies are left-wingers, but that's not the same thing as libertarian, and neither is synonymous with childish. Exactly how many conflicting descriptions of these people do you have on offer?
the country is going to hell in a handbasket because of slacking asses like those that made this thing
I'm fairly sure nothing is going to hell in any handbasket just yet; to the extent that it is, I blame right and left wing politicians. The right wingers keep trying to put the cops in bedrooms and research labs, and the left wingers keep trying to put the tax man between me and everything else in the world. Fortunately, they're all too stupid to realize they're working for the same goal(the notion that the individual is unimportant and must be told what to do and how to do it,) so they fight each other too much to make rapid progress.

How the country could possibly be going to hell in a handbasket because of "libertarians" is beyond me, seeing as there are almost none in any positions of influence and not that many as a percentage of the population in any case. Most people aren't "libertarian" anymore than they're "left" or "right." They're just ignorant bumblefucks who sit around doing nothing, learning nothing, convinced that since everything has always "been ok," it will continue to "be ok."

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
that's what I mean (2.50 / 2) (#24)
by Anonymous Moron on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 04:48:50 PM EST

>They're just ignorant bumblefucks who sit around doing nothing, learning nothing, convinced that since everything has always "been ok," it will continue to "be ok."

in my book that's a libertarian because I believe that's where their platform came from. a whole lot of ideas and very little action. I use it as a blanket term for couch potato politics. I mean really I consider libertarians to be dumber for the sake of wanting their weed to be legal and taking part in the only large party to support that (I'll bet that other than getting what they want they have no idea what the party stands for. in fact I don't think the party does). hey lets go for our freedom, uncle sam can't tell us what to do! oh forget all that crap about freedom coming from that government, they're just opressing me because I can't get my weed. wah wah wah wah wah.

most of them are just a bunch of children who never grew up and still want it their way. laws have been made for reasons, and the country works the way it does for a reason. things are better in many ways now than ever, but because you can't hold your gun, or you can't smoke your dope, or you can't deface a web site for fun then you're suddenly opressed by big bad uncle sam. god almighty, I'm embarassed they're in this country. move to mexico, move to canada, get your fucking anime and asian lifestyle worship over with and move there already. just get the hell out of my america. we need voters that are mature and educated. we don't need bush in there for a second term, know what I mean?

this was not aimed at you, trhurler. this was just me getting some words out there to be heard.

Blah Blah Blah
[ Parent ]

Heheh... (2.00 / 2) (#25)
by beergut on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 04:57:28 PM EST

Yor daddy were a lifelong Democrat, warn't he?

i don't see any nanorobots or jet engines or laser holography or orbiting death satellites.
i just see some orangutan throwing code-feces at a computer screen.

-- indubitable
[ Parent ]

bah (1.00 / 1) (#26)
by Anonymous Moron on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 05:00:31 PM EST

given the choice of another dumbass bush or a democrat with actual political experience I'll choose the latter. while I'm conservative I really feel that we're in for four years of stupid decisions and the world will see us as more incompitant than ever.

Blah Blah Blah
[ Parent ]

Mmm, yes... (2.66 / 3) (#27)
by beergut on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 05:03:10 PM EST

And what decisions has Boy George so far made that have been stupid?

Granted, I'm quite skeptical of him, and didn't vote for him in the last election, either, but so far I've not had a lot to bitch about, at least so far as he is concerned.

Republicrats and Demagogues in Congress, on the other hand...

i don't see any nanorobots or jet engines or laser holography or orbiting death satellites.
i just see some orangutan throwing code-feces at a computer screen.

-- indubitable
[ Parent ]

bush's decisions (1.00 / 1) (#29)
by Anonymous Moron on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 05:13:19 PM EST

well for starters I'm not keen on his plan for the national budget. I think that instead of him putting that money into the public's hands that he should have paid off a large sum of the national debt first. the nation should be string financially, not giving away money when it has bills to pay. stupid decision. anyway it just went right back into the government! I owed property tax! it's silly!

Blah Blah Blah
[ Parent ]

Yeah... and? (4.00 / 2) (#32)
by beergut on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 05:25:54 PM EST

Bush's tax cut didn't go far enough! I owed income tax, and that pizzly $300 went to the government, too, reducing the amount of money I owed.

But, just who do you think owns the debt of which you speak? If you'll have a look, you'll find out it's people who own U.S. Treasury bills and savings bonds. People like you and me.

These people own these bills and bonds as long-term investments "in the full faith and credit of the government of the United States of America." Well, you see, these bills and bonds mature. Any attempt by the government to pay them off early means that the government pays a penalty to the bond-holder. The budget under Boy George pays off those bonds that mature this year, but does not pay off those which do not, and thus does not incur penalties for paying off debt which has not yet matured.

"Bush's budget" (in scare-marks for a reason -- think about it) pays off all the debt that it's practical to pay off. After doing so, there is a projected surplus, only part of which was returned to you and me, and the vast majority of which is being used for yet more fucking wasteful spending.

So, does this seem right to you?

If I had my way, the treasury would stop incurring debt by not selling bonds, if the overriding goal was to get out of debt.

But, that still means that the shitheads in Congress, both Republicrat and Demagogue, need to stop spending more than taxes bring in, to control debt. And, as an added bonus, de-fund and jettison wasteful programs and budget and non-budget items so that our tax dollars, yours and mine, are spent with a little more sanity. Even if it's just a little more sanity, it'd be a good start.

As to hippies wanting their weed to be legal, heheh... do you happen to know what kind of paper the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are written on? Have a look at this 1938 Popular Mechanics article to see just how badly your government is fucking this country with this War on Drugs.

i don't see any nanorobots or jet engines or laser holography or orbiting death satellites.
i just see some orangutan throwing code-feces at a computer screen.

-- indubitable
[ Parent ]

Paying back debt. (none / 0) (#40)
by vectro on Sun Sep 01, 2002 at 11:19:39 AM EST

US Treasury bonds are not callable. So if you purchanse a 20-year bond, the government can't force you to redeem it early. If it could, then all the high-interest debt issued in the 80s could be redeemed and replaced with current low-interest issues. So paying down the debt in no way means that present holders of government instruments will be forced to immediately reinvest in something else; it just means it will be more difficult to buy US treasury securities. This is actually a good thing, because it drives down the interest rate on said securities, saving the government even more money.

You suggest that there were no Treasury issues last year, but I can assure you that is not the case. It has been a very long time since there has been a year when there were no newly-issued treasury bonds.

As for the projected "surplus", such a projection was based not only on the idea that the most significant economic boom in recent history would continue to grow at unsustainable rates, but that it would do so even faster than before. There never was any surplus to spend, and paying out the "tax refund" was certainly premature.

Please, also, drop the condescending attitude. It doesn't suit you.

“The problem with that definition is just that it's bullshit.” -- localroger
[ Parent ]

Well (4.60 / 5) (#31)
by trhurler on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 05:17:41 PM EST

I certainly have met a few people who meet the description you're using who called themselves libertarians, but I've never met a party member that ignorant(or lazy,) and it is certainly true that the percentage of active, thinking libertarians is a lot higher than the percentage of active thinking members of any other political party in the US, regardless of whether you agree with them or not.

Most people who might fit the term "libertarian," though, are not party members. They're not even necessarily in total agreement with the party on major issues. Some of them are, as you describe, ignorant fucks. Others are not.

As for Bush, he's not the ideal president, but I find it hard to complain too loudly after eight years of Clinton. By comparison, Bush is honest, straightforward, and serious; Clinton was serious about his image and getting laid, and not much else, couldn't tell the truth to save his life, and practiced deception as a matter of course, even when it was counterproductive. Bush's opponent, AlGore, to put it mildly, would have fucked the country in the ass. This is the man who advocates banning the internal combustion engine, remember. Not eventually - now. This is the man who advocates banning logging, too. Oh, and coal plants. Of course, not all of that would have happened, but that's what he wanted. Or at least, that's what he said he wanted when he wrote his books.

I think you're aiming your wrath in the wrong direction. However inadvertently, the conservatives are to blame for our present apathy; they created the rigid lockstep educational system which has become a modern liberal powerhouse, and they made it so boring and mind-destroying that almost nobody survives it with his frontal lobes intact. If you want to know why most adults cannot think, look at their education. Not only were they not taught to think - they were taught NOT to think. Cram, regurgitate, repeat. Anything else is misbehavior!

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
Wow (5.00 / 4) (#35)
by spiralx on Wed Aug 15, 2001 at 04:49:09 AM EST

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but the decline of the US has pretty much paralleled its adoption of increasingly left wing political agendas.

How in the hell do you manage to turn a discussion of virtual fish into an attack on left-wing politics? Sometimes you amaze me...

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

What has K5 come to? (3.33 / 3) (#28)
by Biff Cool on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 05:05:28 PM EST

My ass. It's code, with pictures of fish attached. Get over it.

I never thought I'd be sigging trhurler


My ass. It's code, with pictures of fish attached. Get over it. --trhurler


[ Parent ]
Hee Hee (3.00 / 2) (#34)
by spiralx on Wed Aug 15, 2001 at 04:44:27 AM EST

My ass. It's code, with pictures of fish attached. Get over it.

The first sentance there makes the rest of it sound very... odd. Oh for the joy of out of context quotes :)

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

reverse engineer (none / 0) (#37)
by Ubiq on Wed Aug 15, 2001 at 02:02:36 PM EST

Stupid license says I can't reverse engineer the code.

How then do I check if it doesn't install all kinds of spy-ware on my system?



Virtual fish | 40 comments (37 topical, 3 editorial, 0 hidden)
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