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[P]
Microsoft Bans Software Ebay Sales

By in News
Fri May 19, 2000 at 10:41:40 PM EST
Tags: Software (all tags)
Software

If you look at Microsoft's Ebay Feedback you'll notice two very disturbing things. One being Microsoft and Ebay are barring users from auctioning legitimate MS software. Secondly Ebay is modifying all Microsoft's negative feedback to neutrals. Interesting considering Ebay told me they wouldn't modify any feedback at all.

[editor's note, by rusty] Some more info I dug up below...


rusty:

I went poking around on eBay's User Agreement page, and found some interesting things.

First off, the yanking of auctions involving Microsoft products are most likely being closed down by eBay's "VeRO Program". To wit:

eBay's Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) program works to ensure that listed items do not infringe upon the copyright, trademark or other rights of third parties. VeRO program participants and other rights owners can report infringing items, and have such items removed. VeRO program participants and other rights owners may have limited access to some of your personally identifiable information as described in the Privacy Policy
What's that, you say? They'll release your personal information to Microsoft if Redmond is unhappy with your auction? Well, yes. As stated in the privacy policy (section 4, emphasis mine):
Further, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose you [sic] UserID, name, street address, city, state, zip code, country, phone number, email, and company to eBay VeRO Program participants as we in our sole discretion believe necessary or appropriate in connection with an investigation of fraud, intellectual property infringement, piracy, or other unlawful activity. Therefore, although we use industry standard practices to protect your privacy, we do not promise, and you should not expect, that your personally identifiable information or private communications will remain private .
To summarize: "We can and will use your personal information in any damn way we please." The sad part is that this "privacy, or lack thereof, policy" is actually endorsed by the apparently totally worthless TRUSTe and BBBOnline. The specific endorsements of TRUSTe and BBBonline merely state that the site has a stated privacy policy, and follows it. Presumably as long as a site's privacy policy was public, and available on the site, it could say "This site emails all your personal information directly to Edna Graustein, of St. Louis Mo., and signs you up for 100 pr0n sites." and still get certified by TRUSTe and BBBonline. This, IMO, is worse than useless, as I think people generally assume that the seals of such groups as TRUSTe mean that their information is actually being kept *private*. Not so.

I don't know what to make of this. It's all more or less out in the open, but seems cowardly at best, and downright invasive at worst. Is it currently illegal to resell software that you paid for?

Other links of interest are eBay's Why Did eBay End My Auction Early? page, and their Feedback Removal Policy.

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Related Links
o Microsoft' s Ebay Feedback
o User Agreement
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Microsoft Bans Software Ebay Sales | 57 comments (57 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Man, that "neutral" thing is sleazy... (1.00 / 1) (#8)
by marlowe on Fri May 19, 2000 at 05:12:40 PM EST

marlowe voted 1 on this story.

Man, that "neutral" thing is sleazy.
-- The Americans are the Jews of the 21st century. Only we won't go as quietly to the gas chambers. --

I hereby deem this post to be worth... (1.00 / 2) (#10)
by Anonymous Zero on Fri May 19, 2000 at 05:14:32 PM EST

Anonymous Zero voted 1 on this story.

I hereby deem this post to be worthy of discussion.

Explanation: Microsoft threatened a... (3.00 / 1) (#3)
by xah on Fri May 19, 2000 at 05:21:33 PM EST

xah voted 1 on this story.

Explanation: Microsoft threatened a lawsuit. eBay cut a deal so they wouldn't get sued.

Oh, come on! You don't believe MS would do something like that?

You know, I use to use e-bay a lot ... (2.00 / 1) (#4)
by FlinkDelDinky on Fri May 19, 2000 at 05:40:01 PM EST

FlinkDelDinky voted 1 on this story.

You know, I use to use e-bay a lot but pretty much stopped when I found pricewatch. So even though I don't use them anymore I'm still disturbed by this.

I've got a boxed copy of Word 6 that's unregestered. Is it true that I can't put it up for auction on e-bay now?

Re: You know, I use to use e-bay a lot ... (2.00 / 1) (#32)
by Anonymous Hero on Sat May 20, 2000 at 05:03:11 PM EST

I've got a boxed copy of Word 6 that's unregestered. Is it true that I can't put it up for auction on e-bay now?

How does $5 sound?

[ Parent ]

Re: You know, I use to use e-bay a lot ... (1.00 / 1) (#37)
by FlinkDelDinky on Sat May 20, 2000 at 11:11:29 PM EST

Not bad. What about potage? This was back in the days of manuals after all.

[ Parent ]
This is the new face of Microsoft i... (1.00 / 1) (#14)
by mind21_98 on Fri May 19, 2000 at 05:45:22 PM EST

mind21_98 voted 1 on this story.

This is the new face of Microsoft it seems. Sigh.

--
mind21_98 - http://www.translator.cx/
"Ask not if the article is utter BS, but what BS can be exposed in said article."

Hmmm... somebody better tell those ... (3.30 / 3) (#7)
by Ozymandias on Fri May 19, 2000 at 05:47:36 PM EST

Ozymandias voted 1 on this story.

Hmmm... somebody better tell those used software stored (some used book stores branching out, GameCo, Funcoland, etc) that they are conducting illegal business.

Hell, Microsoft doesn't even believe you have the right to use your own software as you choose. I'm not talking about multiple copies, or reverse engineering. Read carefully; you can't even transfer software from one machine to another. According to Microsoft, if you decide to purchase a new computer and get rid of the old one, they want you to buy all new software - even if it's identical to what they have. Call them and see for yourself...
- Ozymandias

Re: Hmmm... somebody better tell those ... (3.00 / 2) (#18)
by Demona on Fri May 19, 2000 at 11:21:33 PM EST

Ebay makes me cringe every time I see them shut down an auction, whether for marijuana or human organs. No fraud, no coercion, no cause of action! Where are you, Blacknet?

[ Parent ]
Used Markets, Grey Markets (4.00 / 1) (#39)
by Demona on Sun May 21, 2000 at 01:42:09 AM EST

Although most of you have probly seen this already, Linux Today has a related article on Microsoft policy hurting individual freedom and the environment.

[ Parent ]
Microsoft, Schmicrosoft. If they w... (1.00 / 1) (#1)
by Paul Dunne on Fri May 19, 2000 at 05:48:47 PM EST

Paul Dunne voted -1 on this story.

Microsoft, Schmicrosoft. If they want to dig their own grave, let them.
http://dunne.home.dhs.org/

It is something that needs to be ex... (1.00 / 1) (#15)
by MrSparkle on Fri May 19, 2000 at 06:11:15 PM EST

MrSparkle voted 1 on this story.

It is something that needs to be explained..
-----------------------------------------------
I'm the guy that has a problem with everything.

Re: It is something that needs to be ex... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
by MrSparkle on Sat May 20, 2000 at 11:20:52 AM EST

Umm, WTF, I didn't write that.. Whats up?
-----------------------------------------------
I'm the guy that has a problem with everything.
[ Parent ]
Y'know, what with their antics on T... (1.00 / 1) (#9)
by warpeightbot on Fri May 19, 2000 at 06:46:36 PM EST

warpeightbot voted 1 on this story.

Y'know, what with their antics on That Other Site, and this, and the slowness of the Justice [sic] System, we ought to just march up there and issue the SmackDown ourselves.

Anyone who not been living under a ... (2.00 / 2) (#6)
by TomG on Fri May 19, 2000 at 07:13:31 PM EST

TomG voted -1 on this story.

Anyone who not been living under a rock should already know that you have no rights or privacy when it comes to big corporations.

... which is why I never trusted eB... (2.00 / 1) (#5)
by julian on Fri May 19, 2000 at 07:19:47 PM EST

julian voted 1 on this story.

... which is why I never trusted eBay to begin with.
-- Julian (x-virge)

It is illegal to re-sell MS softwar... (2.00 / 2) (#11)
by Strongtium90 on Fri May 19, 2000 at 08:17:29 PM EST

Strongtium90 voted 1 on this story.

It is illegal to re-sell MS software. Bottom Line. Don't buy it, don't sell it, don't whine.

Re: It is illegal to re-sell MS softwar... (1.00 / 2) (#19)
by Anonymous Hero on Fri May 19, 2000 at 11:33:00 PM EST

Care to explain why? If it is in unsealed packaging, and you don't need or want it, why can't you pass the crap along for some other sucker who hasn't heard of Open Source?

[ Parent ]
Re: It is illegal to re-sell MS softwar... (1.50 / 2) (#25)
by Strongtium90 on Sat May 20, 2000 at 03:45:57 AM EST

If you buy there software you play by their rules. This is no different than the GPL or BSD license. If I buy Red Hat 6.2 modify all the source code and sell or distribute it without source, I am violating the GPL. Software copyrights(or lefts) should be enforced for all parties, even those you do not agree with. MS owns the software and if you buy it, you play by their rules, even if they suck. That means sale and re-sale on their terms. If you don't like it don't buy it, no one is forcing you, not even Dell!

[ Parent ]
Re: It is illegal to re-sell MS softwar... (1.00 / 1) (#28)
by MrSparkle on Sat May 20, 2000 at 11:24:22 AM EST

I had the smae problem trying to resell the bit-size snickers that I baught from krogers.. Ok so I didn't try to. But it is the same thing. They don't want to loose the money of a new sell if the can stop it. It's just good buisness on there part.. And I am by no means a MS advocite. I use Linux.
-----------------------------------------------
I'm the guy that has a problem with everything.
[ Parent ]
Re: It is illegal to re-sell MS softwar... (3.00 / 1) (#33)
by Anonymous Hero on Sat May 20, 2000 at 05:13:34 PM EST

I had the smae problem trying to resell the bit-size snickers that I baught from krogers.. Ok so I didn't try to. But it is the same thing. They don't want to loose the money of a new sell if the can stop it. It's just good buisness on there part..

You can't sell individual bite-sized snickers because it would violate food labeling laws. Perhaps, packaging laws as well.

I buy boxes of Hershey's chocolate bars. If I wanted to resell individual bars in my own vending machine, I could. This is because each bar has all the information required by law (like nutritional content). It is packaged for resale.

Please don't blame a greedy corporation for government oppression unless they really deserve it.

[ Parent ]

Re: It is illegal to re-sell MS softwar... (3.00 / 1) (#41)
by Anonymous Hero on Sun May 21, 2000 at 10:10:38 AM EST

Ahh, but the EULA only applies if you OPEN the software. Alot of these people where welling unopened software, thus, they were not legally bound by the EULA.

[ Parent ]
Re: It is illegal to re-sell MS softwar... - No. (1.00 / 1) (#43)
by Anonymous Hero on Sun May 21, 2000 at 11:54:08 PM EST

The EULA is not legally binding as far as what you can and cannot do with a product you own.

It is completely legal to re-sell any software (Microsoft's included) you own. That does not mean you can sell copies (copyright law forbids that), but you can sell the original package you bought to anyone.

The sellers whose auctions were yanked should band together for a class-action lawsuit against Microsoft for interfering with their property rights.

[ Parent ]
Because all proprietary software is a trap (2.00 / 1) (#52)
by Anonymous Hero on Mon May 29, 2000 at 09:43:28 PM EST

If you use software, and it's not free, you can (and probably will) be fucked over in the future. Don't like it? Too fucking bad. You can choose not to be ass-fucked, but if instead you choose the ass-fucking, don't expect a reach-around. (And don't bitch if you don't get one! Choose freedom, and you'll have no reason to whine.)

[ Parent ]
Re: It is illegal to re-sell MS softwar... (5.00 / 3) (#20)
by Anonymous Hero on Fri May 19, 2000 at 11:46:32 PM EST

Bullshit.

Quoted from that document:
6. Is it legal for me to sell software that I have bought and used?
Yes, as long as you follow the terms of transfer outlined in your license agreement. You may not rent or lease the software, but you may transfer your rights under the End User License Agreement (EULA) on a permanent basis provided you transfer all copies of the software and all written materials, including the original license agreement and the Certificate of Authenticity (COA) where applicable. For any valid transfer, the software recipient must agree to the terms of the EULA. Any transfer must include the most recent product upgrade as well as any prior versions that you have, including media and documentation. Prior to transferring your software you must remove all copies of the product from your machine, including your portable computer in instances where a "second copy" is allowed. If you wish to transfer software that was licensed under a multiple license pack, you must transfer all the product copies to a single new owner. Microsoft's License Packs cannot be broken up.

It looks to me that there is a clear market need for a software auction site since eBay doesn't have the balls to be in the biz. Personal information should only be accessible by accusers when a subpoena is issued!

Exchanges do not get sued for SEC violations because some companies selling stock on the exchange are violating SEC rules. In the same vein, an exchange supporting copyrighted material should not get sued for copyright violations.

-bitMonster

[ Parent ]

Re: It is illegal to re-sell MS softwar... (1.00 / 1) (#21)
by bitMonster on Sat May 20, 2000 at 12:07:34 AM EST

Now I have an account. :)
-- I'm just too po' to afford SPAM.
[ Parent ]
Re: It is illegal to re-sell MS softwar... (4.00 / 1) (#50)
by Anonymous Hero on Mon May 29, 2000 at 08:11:56 PM EST

Personal information should only be accessible by accusers when a subpoena is issued!

BZZZZZ! Wrong! Personal information should only be disclosed when a valid subpoena is issued! I believe that the accused should have a right to test the validity of the subpoena, to protect their reputation. In the case above, Microsoft has made libellous comments to the bidders in the auctions about the seller.

I also believe that because of this, the sellers have a good libel case against Microsoft - they are being called pirates with absolutely no substantiated evidence to support such a claim.

[ Parent ]

Re: It is illegal to re-sell MS softwar... (4.50 / 2) (#26)
by iCEBaLM on Sat May 20, 2000 at 04:17:15 AM EST

It is *NOT* illegal to resell any copyrighted material you have bought, including software, regardless of license.

This is pretty standard law falling under the "First Sale" doctrine of which there is quite heavy precident set. The only stipulation I'm aware of is that you have to sell it in whole as you recieved it.

-- iCEBaLM

[ Parent ]
Re: It is illegal to re-sell MS softwar... (none / 0) (#42)
by AArthur on Sun May 21, 2000 at 09:08:30 PM EST

AFAIK, this issue of fair "resell" was a hot topic of the early 20's. Before then it was standard pratice to print on records and books that resell was strictly prohbited, after that supreme court case it was made legal.

Andrew B. Arthur | aarthur@imaclinux.net | http://hvcc.edu/~aa310264
[ Parent ]

Re: It is illegal to re-sell MS softwar... (5.00 / 1) (#46)
by Anonymous Hero on Mon May 22, 2000 at 01:18:27 PM EST

It was already legal. (b/c the Common Law is fundementally that all things are legal until made illegal, as opposed to the Roman Law which operates the other way around) Depending on copyright holders for accurate legal advice regarding what you can do with their work is not a particularly good idea.

All the Supreme Court did was make it plain that it was legal. But copyright laws never covered resale. There was argument on that point though.

Unfortunately copyright law is getting worse, not better.

[ Parent ]
This is interesting - ebay and othe... (3.00 / 2) (#12)
by kirbyk on Fri May 19, 2000 at 08:58:53 PM EST

kirbyk voted 1 on this story.

This is interesting - ebay and other auction sites are fairly high profile, and a lot of dubiously legal stuff goes on there. On the other hand, big companies have a history of running roughshod over personal privacy. Ebay is increasingly going to be caught in the middle of this sort of thing. The cost of running an internet auction site is much higher if they have to constantly watch their users for illegal trades.
-- Kirby Tuxtops: Laptops with Linux! http://www.tuxtops.com

I just want to know, what is Micros... (3.00 / 1) (#2)
by ebunga on Fri May 19, 2000 at 09:47:42 PM EST

ebunga voted 1 on this story.

I just want to know, what is Microsoft thinking? As if their continuous battle with the DoJ isn't bad enough for their corporate image, they go around bullying everybody, which makes people think less of them. Just think, Microsoft's proposed resolution to the anti-trust case is behavioral modifications?

Their image is not hurt (4.00 / 1) (#23)
by Commienst on Sat May 20, 2000 at 12:22:49 AM EST

This is not hurting their image at all. The people foolish enough to pay $500 or whatever Microsoft software costs (it is usually really expensive) are the type of people who do not know what they are doing when it comes to computers. Even if you want the commercial support of a commercial application like a wordprocessor there are much cheaper options like Corel Wordperfect Suite which is hundreds of dollars cheaper and comparable in quality and functionality to Microsoft Office.

Until actions like this make mainstream news instead of "web news" the general public will not know about Microsoft's greedy buisness practices.

[ Parent ]

Re: Their image is not hurt (2.00 / 1) (#29)
by MrSparkle on Sat May 20, 2000 at 11:30:31 AM EST

It may be just me but I kinda like office premium 2000. The only prob I have had so far is it's bloatware. And that damn paperclip. But you can turn it off now. But I haven't had one crah on me yet. It i a bit overpriced though. But I work at a puter store so I get a steep discount. But Office is so good because things like staroffice does things in wierd ways. And if you try to open a staroffice spreadsheet in excell, half the times it dosen't work. But of course, staroffice is almost just as much as bloatware, it is just not as expensive.
-----------------------------------------------
I'm the guy that has a problem with everything.
[ Parent ]
Re: Their image is not hurt (3.50 / 2) (#44)
by Anonymous Hero on Mon May 22, 2000 at 12:03:28 AM EST

And if you try to open a staroffice spreadsheet in excell, half the times it dosen't work.

That is because Microsoft does not like to play fair with any of its competitors, so MS intentionally codes so that other companies' file formats are not recognized (do not work). More sinister, Microsoft takes public standards and modifies them so you can only use the MS version with MS software. The Microsoft kerberos "implementation" is an example of this very disgusting practice. Now, in order to communicate using kerberos security and a Microsoft client you have to have a Microsoft server. How's that for artificially tying two products together.

Moral: Expect that any file format you want to use will not be recognized by MS software unless MS deems it to be in their best interest.

[ Parent ]
Staroffice? (3.00 / 1) (#45)
by Commienst on Mon May 22, 2000 at 10:17:52 AM EST

Try Koffice instead of Staroffice in my opinion it is the best word processor suite to date. It can read most of the features of the MSOffice file formats something like 90 percent I wouldnt know for sure though as I do not use MS Office. KOffice

[ Parent ]
This story was very well researched... (3.50 / 2) (#13)
by Reed on Fri May 19, 2000 at 10:41:40 PM EST

Reed voted 1 on this story.

This story was very well researched. I particularly am disturbed by the privacy policy, section 4. There are a lot of companies with less-than-perfect privacy policies in place, but I haven't seen many that openly say they will give our your phone number and address, which is, IMO, frightening. The fact that TRUSTe and BBBOnline endorse this sort of thinly veiled (which in my opinion is worse than no) privacy policy scares me.

Re: This story was very well researched... (5.00 / 1) (#16)
by rusty on Fri May 19, 2000 at 11:05:08 PM EST

Yeah, it shocked the hell out of me too. Basically, if you join up with their little program, and claim that someone's violated your copyright on eBay, they'll give the alleged violator's private info to you, so you can sue them. Frankly, that sucks. I didn't have an eBay account before, and I sure as hell am not getting one now.

Why aren't there any organizations that represent a guarantee of *actual privacy*, like most folks think TRUSTe does? As in, "we'll certify you if you meet our standards of customer privacy protection", not just "if you have a policy."

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Re: This story was very well researched... (4.00 / 2) (#17)
by analog on Fri May 19, 2000 at 11:18:38 PM EST

Problem with that is, where's the revenue model? TRUSTe lets members get away with murder because they wouldn't get paid otherwise. In order to have a system that actually works, and realistically and objectively evaluates sites as it affects the privacy of the users, their revenue has to come from someplace completely unrelated; this means no 'membership fees', and no advertising.

Really, all places like TRUSTe are is legalized extortion. Pay the membership fees, and get what is really a completely meaningless certification, or we'll make it look like you're a big bad bogeyman that hurts your customers. I keep waiting for congress to take a hard look at some of these places, but I guess that's unrealistic; they're making money, and these days, that makes all things forgivable.

[ Parent ]

Re: This story was very well researched... (4.00 / 1) (#24)
by rusty on Sat May 20, 2000 at 01:17:24 AM EST

Right. Exactly. And did you know TRUSTe makes a big deal of being founded by the EFF? Take a look at their website. What's up with that? I thought the EFF were the good guys.

The point is though that non-profits and activist organizations are nothing new. Why aren't there non-profits who do privacy assurance? Or, why aren't there for-profit companies that simply maintain some freaking ethics. And when exactly did we all drop the whole concept of ethics into the toilet, anyway?

Ok, I'm getting all worked up again. Clearly I need to take this story in small bits at a time. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Re: This story was very well researched... (4.00 / 1) (#31)
by analog on Sat May 20, 2000 at 04:12:20 PM EST

No, I wasn't aware of the EFF connection. Kinda makes you wonder if there are any good guys...

You're right that there is a long history of 'watchdog' organizations; I imagine that someday you'll see something of the sort make it to the web. However, as it stands now, it seems that nobody gets on the web without thinking "how can I make a ton of money from this?". Everybody thinks they're going to be the next IPO lottery winner, so nobody wants to create an organization that by definition can never make them instant millionaires.

If you read "the TRUSTe story" on their site, you can see that they went for the money pretty much from the get go (although they spin it a different way). As long as people view the web as the place where people who know about computers go to get rich, I imagine it's inevitable.

As far as the loss of ethics, I'm tempted to say that they've never been there. Certainly it's true to some degree (anyone who thinks Microsoft is the great Satan ought to check out RCA's shenanigans in the early part of this century. Compared to David Sarnoff, Bill Gates is a dilletante). I do think that somewhere laying ethics by the wayside became not just acceptable, but admirable, as long as someone made a pile of cash by doing so. So where it used to be that a company who acted unethically would try to hide it, now they practically brag about it.

All these things run in cycles. It'll change. 'Course, I think the old cliche about things getting a lot worse before they get better applies...

[ Parent ]

TRUSTe? Bah. (2.00 / 1) (#40)
by mattm on Sun May 21, 2000 at 02:50:25 AM EST

Make that "DISTRUSTe" &emdash; or maybe take a cue from our favorite returning FBI agents and say, "TRUSTe No One". ;)



[ Parent ]
why the hell... (3.00 / 1) (#22)
by homer on Sat May 20, 2000 at 12:10:12 AM EST

Can someone explain why eBay wouldn't just delete the feedback instead of changing it to neutral? Seems pretty stupid of them, of course the whole thing reeks of a greedy, whoring, insidious mismanaged multi-billion dollar corporation.
-----------
doh!
Re-rating content vs. changing it (none / 0) (#56)
by kmself on Tue May 30, 2000 at 01:29:20 AM EST

This is something Rusty might want to pay attention to, as it plays into his spam/troll control model.

Re-rating content is performing a service and an evaluation function. It doesn't entail editorial control. For the purposes of content, you haven't said "we allow foo but not bar.

Changing content puts you in the business of publishing, rather than being a common carrier. Changes a bunch of the rules.

--
Karsten M. Self
SCO -- backgrounder on Caldera/SCO vs IBM
Support the EFF!!
There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

Wait a second... (3.00 / 1) (#34)
by drivers on Sat May 20, 2000 at 06:08:41 PM EST

What exactly is being banned from resale? AFAIK, you can sell a copy of MS software but of course you have to destroy your own copies of the program installed on your computer or otherwise backed-up. Also there is some software that is "not for resale." This is stuff like NFR software sent to companies that are looking to buy a bunch but want to try it out on one machine first (or just sent out as marketing material in general) and OEM software that comes bundled with your computer. Usually you can't resell that. Are they banning all sales of MS software? The next question of course, is, even so, doesn't eBay have that right? They ban many things where they just don't want to have to deal with the potential legal or public relations problems. See the long list of forbidden items.

Re: Wait a second... (4.50 / 2) (#35)
by rusty on Sat May 20, 2000 at 06:37:00 PM EST

Basically, MS is scanning auctions for MS products and complaing whenever it finds one. eBay cancels the auction without determining if the software is legally sellable or not. Some software is not resellable, I believe, but most of it is. For example, if I buy a box copy of Word, and then decide I don't want it , it would be perfectly legal for me to resell it. This is the obvious case at the legal end of the spectrum. If I buy a copy of Word and then try to sell duplicate CD's that I burned off the original, that would be illegal. in between that is a wide spectrum, in which most kinds of sale are perfectly legal, but eBay apparently doesn't care about "burden of proof".

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Re: Wait a second... (2.00 / 1) (#36)
by buzzbomb on Sat May 20, 2000 at 08:28:17 PM EST

OEM software should be sellable. If I buy a new machine with 98 or NT on it and I'm going to run Linux and JUST Linux, why should I be forced to keep a copy of the MS software? It's not like manufacturers give you an option on whether you can buy a MS OS or not. It's usually just a choice between 98 or NT and probably 2000 by now. The other option would be to take it and send it to Microsoft for a refund...but I don't see that happening.

[ Parent ]
Re: Wait a second... (3.00 / 1) (#38)
by iCEBaLM on Sun May 21, 2000 at 12:48:41 AM EST

<I>This is stuff like NFR software sent to companies that are looking to buy a bunch but want to try it out on one machine first (or just sent out as marketing material in general) and OEM software that comes bundled with your computer.</I>

No I think you have something confused about OEM software. Companies cannot rip apart "retail" boxes of hardware, say, a video card that comes with a copy of mechwarrior 2, they can't separate that and sell OEM software seperate from hardware, thats what the "Not for Resale" means, it comes with the hardware until sold to an end customer. If you buy that video card and you don't want that game, you're free to sell it used. Same with Win9x that comes with your computer, you bought and paid for that, it's yours under "first sale" doctrine, you can sell it.

-- iCEBaLM

[ Parent ]
More than Negatives (4.00 / 1) (#47)
by swiftone on Mon May 22, 2000 at 04:32:49 PM EST

Actually, browsing through the many comments, I see that all but one of the positives don't sound very positive. I'd hazard the guess that ebay just "bumped" all comments up a notch, so that negative became neutral and neutral become positive.

This is even worse than the negative->neutral thing, because now people who were complaining are appearing to SUPPORT the user.



Bumped up before as well? (3.00 / 1) (#48)
by Anonymous Hero on Tue May 23, 2000 at 05:19:39 PM EST

User: twinsoft (2741) Date: Mar-22-99 20:53:45 PST
Praise: This is a COMPLAINT! They ended an auction for legal MS software, no explanatio

Yeah. Sounds like Praise to me all right. Takes 2 steps to go from Negative to Praise.. Perhaps this isn't the first time that eBay chose to bump up the feedback of it's affluent friend.
Sickening.

Re: Bumped up before as well? (3.00 / 1) (#54)
by Anonymous Hero on Tue May 30, 2000 at 12:02:12 AM EST

Before you start bashing on eBay, think of this. On March 3rd, all feedback was required to be transaction related. Prior to that, feedback could be left for any member by any member. Why do you think Rosie made her feedback private? Oodles and Oodles of people were leaving feedback that had no transaction with her at all. eBay did not neutralize the feedback. When you didn't have an actual transaction with another member, eBay's system would only allow you to leave a positive or neutral comment. Also notice...the comments stopped on that date didn't they? http://pages.ebay.com/community/suggestion/feedbackresults.html In regards to the VERO program that you are all so happily bashing...eBay is only removing auctions that are being requested to do so by Microsoft and many other companies that do have the copyrights of these specific products. I hope this gives some insight. If you don't like it, why don't you go to Yahoo! or Amazon and see how crappy it actually can get.

[ Parent ]
The real motivation for M$'s actions (3.00 / 1) (#49)
by Anonymous Hero on Mon May 29, 2000 at 03:24:58 PM EST

I saw a story somewhere or other on the net that perhaps explains Micro$oft's real motivations. The story described how M$ employees are buying expensive packages like Win2k at an employee discount and reselling them on EBay. M$ wants to discipline its employees who are reselling these NFR packages.

Re: The real motivation for M$'s actions (3.00 / 1) (#53)
by Anonymous Hero on Mon May 29, 2000 at 10:45:41 PM EST

EBay allowed, during the dates those feedbacks were
posted, non-transactional positives, and neutrals
All negatives had to be transactional
(associated with an actual auction)
I don't think they've been converted,
I think people left the nastiest neutrals they could.
Think about it.. they could not have left negatives

responses can go to me
kredai@hotmail.com

[ Parent ]
eBay (3.00 / 1) (#55)
by Anonymous Hero on Tue May 30, 2000 at 12:08:45 AM EST

Before you start bashing on eBay, think of this. On March 3rd, all feedback was required to be transaction related. Prior to that, feedback could be left for any member by any member. Why do you think Rosie made her feedback private? Oodles and Oodles of people were leaving feedback that had no transaction with her at all. eBay did not neutralize the feedback. When you didn't have an actual transaction with another member, eBay's system would only allow you to leave a positive or neutral comment. Also notice...the comments stopped on that date didn't they? http://pages.ebay.com/community/suggestion/feedbackresults.html In regards to the VERO program that you are all so happily bashing...eBay is only removing auctions that are being requested to do so by Microsoft and many other companies that do have the copyrights of these specific products. I hope this gives some insight. If you don't like it, why don't you go to Yahoo! or Amazon and see how crappy it actually can get.

Re: eBay (none / 0) (#57)
by rusty on Tue May 30, 2000 at 04:50:20 AM EST

On March 3rd, all feedback was required to be transaction related. Prior to that, feedback could be left for any member by any member... Also notice...the comments stopped on that date didn't they?

Of course they did. You no longer have any way to complain when MS kills your auction, because you're not technically in a transaction with them. Matter of fact, by definition, you're not in a transaction with anyone (because your potential transaction has been curtailed). This is an improvement? How does this exonerate eBay from their corporate cowardice?

In regards to the VERO program that you are all so happily bashing...eBay is only removing auctions that are being requested to do so by Microsoft and many other companies that do have the copyrights of these specific products.

But do not have or need any evidence that the auction is in fact illegal? Holding a copyright does not mean that you have final say in all financial transactions involving an item. I can sell you any CD that I bought at retail price. Metallica, who hold the copyright to the CD, can't stop me. The other beef with the program is that eBay will freely turn over your name, address, and phone number to a company who hold the copyright on an item they suspect you might be selling illegally. Again, no evidence is needed, and no warning is given to the user.

To summarize, how do either of these things contradict the story?

And BTW, no one's said Yahoo or Amazon are any better. This is an industry-wide plague, but we are forced to deal with it on a case-by-case basis.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Side note -- eBay ratings == /. karma (none / 0) (#58)
by kmself on Tue May 30, 2000 at 05:07:59 PM EST

Just an observation having rolled over and taken a look at what eBay has going. Their rating system is an awful lot like Slashdot's karam -- it's essentially a cumulative ranking of posts pro, con, and neutral.

Incidentally, if they'd changed the system to a K5-style moderation ranking using aggregate points, possible with a broader scale (say 1-10 rather than 1-5), the changing of posts from "negative" to "neutral" might fall under copyright and author's integrity type constraints.

$0.02, less in some markets.

--
Karsten M. Self
SCO -- backgrounder on Caldera/SCO vs IBM
Support the EFF!!
There is no K5 cabal.

Microsoft Bans Software Ebay Sales | 57 comments (57 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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