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Random Thoughts On K5

By Fyndalf in News
Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 02:17:41 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

I like this site, I think it's a great evolution of the concept. While lurking about I had a couple of ideas on what could be added to such a site, not that I expect them to be implemented in Scoop per se, but that don't seem like implausible features for web logs. Also, I think discussion about what sorts of variations on this type of site exist or might exist would be interesting, if not, well, don't vote this to the main page :-)


Static articles

Here and at That Other Site there are some on-going topics. For example, there is always some of this meta-discussion going on, often completely offtopic. So if there was a kuro5hin story that was always there, all this discussion could be moved there, instead of the random stories that pop up. Other static topics may be on-going events that could last a few months and then end (like the ineffectual breakup of a software compay), etcetera. The problems that would need to be solved are how to deal with the continuous flow of new comments into these topics (sort them 25 most recent on first page, then a button for next 25?), and how to decide who gets to create topics (perhaps similar to the article posting thing, but where you can change your vote later once the topic has outlived its usefulness).

Sub-indexes

I've seen a number of instances where people would post something if there were some sort of sub-section for that sort of articles, allowing it to appear but not on the main page. For example, a "rant" section was recently requested. /. sort of has this but sort of doesn't. Once again, this would ideally be member controlled to fit in with the open and self-maintaining ideas of k5 which I think should be maintained, here and on other sites of this ilk.

Editing

Often a story would be good if it weren't for a couple of minor points. How can we fix little problems without scrapping the story and starting over again? Give the author the ability to change the post and members the ability to change their vote? Some way of posting a story as "in lieu of"? Or is posting an entire new story a sufficient solution? It seems to be at this volume, but how will that scale when we get more users and many more stories?

Or not ...

All in all, Scoop is a very slick design and handles everything quite well (though we haven't really seen how it scales yet, have we?), the authors should be proud. If any new features might be added to this (or anything else), one must always consider if they're fixing something that isn't broken. Also, if features aren't implemented with care, they could make things worse rather than better. That said, if new features are never considered, the possibility for an even better site disappears. My particular suggestions may not be of value, but I think there is room for improvement, although I'm not sure what form that would take.

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Random Thoughts On K5 | 33 comments (33 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Sure, it could be said that this is... (2.00 / 1) (#3)
by Demona on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 03:13:46 AM EST

Demona voted 1 on this story.

Sure, it could be said that this is more appropriate for scoop.kuro5hin.org, but the semi-unique community nature of k5 makes it appropriate -- almost necessary -- for general posting. k5 is what we make of it, right?

this should either be posted to sco... (2.00 / 1) (#12)
by shonson on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 03:37:36 AM EST

shonson voted -1 on this story.

this should either be posted to scoop.kuro5hin or emailed to rusty
-- Steven in #kuro5hin

Sure, cool, need to have a communit... (2.00 / 1) (#14)
by dhartung on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 03:39:17 AM EST

dhartung voted 1 on this story.

Sure, cool, need to have a community pow-wow once in a while.
-- Before the Harper's Index: the Harper's Hash Table

Nothing like a little navel gazing ... (2.00 / 1) (#5)
by torpor on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 04:21:04 AM EST

torpor voted 1 on this story.

Nothing like a little navel gazing now and then...
j. -- boink! i have no sig!

Hey! I resemble that remark (none / 0) (#23)
by kmself on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 08:36:00 PM EST

[karsten@navel:karsten]$ hostname
navel

--
Karsten M. Self
SCO -- backgrounder on Caldera/SCO vs IBM
Support the EFF!!
There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

Permanent features/threads sound ni... (4.00 / 1) (#15)
by Setar on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 05:11:06 AM EST

Setar voted 1 on this story.

Permanent features/threads sound nifty, I'd rather not see post-editing features though. Just repost the story after editing.

Good writeup, but should belong in ... (2.00 / 1) (#7)
by inspire on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 06:42:50 AM EST

inspire voted -1 on this story.

Good writeup, but should belong in the "what now?" thread, or scoop.kuro5hin.org.
--
What is the helix?

I especially like the first idea. ... (2.00 / 1) (#16)
by semis on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 08:05:30 AM EST

semis voted 1 on this story.

I especially like the first idea. I'd also like to be able to create "votes". These should perhaps need more weight to get published.

Interesting writeup. Can we declare... (4.00 / 2) (#4)
by driph on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 08:14:31 AM EST

Driph voted 1 on this story.

Interesting writeup. Can we declare this week Kuro5hin self analysis week? And if not, ya'll better stay interested in K5 articles because I'm readying one up fer postin'. :]

On to your thoughts:

Static Articles & Subs -
Your idea is similar to the idea behind Hot Lists(which would be most excellent if they told ya how many new msgs there were since last read.. nudge nudge :] ...) where a discussion could in theory last forever (such as Who Are You?, a thread that has been continuing on and off for quite some time..) I think that discussions will start to last longer once more and more users realize that discussions here CAN last forever. Although if I read you right, do you mean something more along the lines of a general discussion on {insert topic}? I've mentioned the idea of allowing users to start their own discussion within their user info page, where they could use it as a read-only diary, a way to have test articles proofed, or whatever else they find of interest. (So in that situation, you or I could declare our userpage discussions to be anything from "Should people from Las Vegas be called Vegans, and if so, do the straightedge vegetarian Vegans hate that?" to "God & Religion. Discuss."

Editing -
Amen brother! How about this as a way to work around editing: If a user opts to edit an article s/he has submitted, that article is flagged, alerting moderators to the fact that it has been edited, and that they can now redecide their vote using the new information available.

Good article, I get off on talking about this place. :]

--
Vegas isn't a liberal stronghold. It's the place where the rich and powerful gamble away their company's pension fund and strangle call girls in their hotel rooms. - Psycho Dave

... (3.00 / 2) (#9)
by tidepool on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 09:29:50 AM EST

tidepool voted 1 on this story.

Editing Often a story would be good if it weren't for a couple of minor points. How can we fix little problems without scrapping the story and starting over again? Give the author the ability to change the post and members the ability to change their vote? Some way of posting a story as "in lieu of"? Or is posting an entire new story a sufficient solution? It seems to be at this volume, but how will that scale when we get more users and many more stories?

The problem with people chaning their votes is this: People tend to 'follow the herd'. What I mean is, in the current k5 setup, once you vote, you get to see how other people voted and why they did so. After reading all the comments / seeing if the story has a positive or negative number of comments, people will feel obligated to 'go with the flow' and vote accordingly.

Or perhaps I am making things up.
tidepool@suspicious.org

One quick thing I'd like to see cod... (4.30 / 3) (#13)
by maynard on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 09:48:04 AM EST

maynard voted 1 on this story.

One quick thing I'd like to see coded up is to mail out all the comments to the person who submits a story that is not published. This way the submittor gets feedback, hopefully constructive, which can help him/her with their next submission.

Read The Proxies, a short crime thriller.

This is a good example of why we ne... (4.00 / 1) (#11)
by Marcin on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 09:50:26 AM EST

Marcin voted 1 on this story.

This is a good example of why we need a static story thing actually.. There's a story "What Now?" which still gets comments put in it about Scoop ideas, but it'd be much better if it was just a static discussion thing rather than an old story. Actually, it might be in one of the boxes, so never mind :)
M.

+1 because everybody likes navel-ga... (4.70 / 3) (#2)
by ramses0 on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 11:48:10 AM EST

ramses0 voted 1 on this story.

+1 because everybody likes navel-gazing at kuro5hin ;^)=

The one (easy!) feature that I would like to see added (please rusty!) is a "what's hot" box in the uppermost right-hand corner.

That means that users would have two hotlists: "My Hotlist", where stories that they have selected are listed. And another list: "What's Hot", which sorts all the stories that users have put onto their private hotlists. That means that if 100 users have hotlisted the microsoft story, and only 75 have hotlisted the one-handed programmer story, the "What's Hot" box would look something like the following:

The Hottest Stories on K5

  • Look what they said about MS (100 hotlisting, 167 comments)
  • One Handed Programming (75 hotlistings, 56 comments)
  • ...more stories, in descending order of being added to user's hotlists...

It's easy to do, and you can even share the global hotlist with people who aren't logged in/registered. It's kindof like a voting mechanism for stories after they've been posted (which is cool).

The other thing which would be really nice is to highlight new messages, and/or to provide links to recent responses to a user's own posts (<u>joe</u>, <u>bob</u>, <u>jane have responded to your comments recently). But that might be a lot of work to do. Actually, if you set up a separate database table for it, it might not be too bad?

GRRRRR. You're gonna make me go try to look at the source tree now.

--Robert
[ rate all comments , for great justice | sell.com ]

Re: +1 because everybody likes navel-ga... (none / 0) (#30)
by Alhazred on Mon Jun 12, 2000 at 11:36:05 AM EST

Go to "user info" and you get a list of all the postings you've made and you can see how many responses there have been and click right into them, its a cool feature.

One of the things I personally find a bit frustrating about web logs in general is that stuff doesn't stick around long enough for an in-depth discussion.

I like the hotlist idea. I think there need to be ways to keep a topic "alive" longer for those who might want to keep discussing certain topics. Ultimately I'd like to see a way to kind of "graduate" a discussion to a more structured environment thats more suited to long term discussion. Say a web board where things can be more threaded and maybe even moderated to some extent.
That is not dead which may eternal lie And with strange aeons death itself may die.
[ Parent ]
Re: +1 because everybody likes navel-ga... (none / 0) (#32)
by ramses0 on Tue Jun 13, 2000 at 09:38:17 AM EST

The only way I found your message here was by going to user info. Thanks for the tip, but I was thinking something a little more like the "Moderate Submissions (2 new)" link...

consider: "Responses to your Comments (1 new)"

I know, it's basically laziness in action, but hey, it's my right to be lazy ;^)=

--Robert
[ rate all comments , for great justice | sell.com ]
[ Parent ]

Re: +1 because everybody likes navel-ga... (none / 0) (#33)
by rusty on Tue Jun 13, 2000 at 09:54:15 AM EST

I agree. There needs to be a lot of work done on "persistence features". And everyone's ideas are being read and noted and filed away. I wish this was my real job, sometimes. ;-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Good points all. Especially the "r... (2.00 / 1) (#8)
by gandalf_grey on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 12:21:55 PM EST

gandalf_grey voted 1 on this story.

Good points all. Especially the "return and edit" feature. I've often wanted to ammend, or append an article or comment, and been unable. Could we offer a way to do that in some limited way.

I think most of the suggestions are... (1.00 / 1) (#10)
by Arkady on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 12:35:52 PM EST

Arkady voted 1 on this story.

I think most of the suggestions are pretty good.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


Interesting comments on k5 and the ... (1.00 / 1) (#17)
by nsanch on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 12:37:12 PM EST

nsanch voted 1 on this story.

Interesting comments on k5 and the possibilities for a site like this. It'd be cool to hear some other people's ideas.

Ok, this time I agree that this is ... (4.00 / 1) (#1)
by rusty on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 01:45:42 PM EST

rusty voted -1 on this story.

Ok, this time I agree that this is really more appropriate for scoop.kuro5hin.org.

____
Not the real rusty

Alright then... (3.00 / 1) (#18)
by rusty on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 02:22:19 PM EST

Navel-gazing it is. :-) Hell, it's Saturday. Might as well.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Re: Ok, this time I agree that this is ... (4.00 / 1) (#21)
by Fyndalf on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 04:47:42 PM EST

Oops! Sorry. I thought that link to scoop was a download link and not another forum. Then again, this really isn't specific to Scoop, Slash et al could certainly benefit from changes as well. Also, scoop.kuro5hin.org tends not to get much traffic, this has 20 comments already and most of the stuff on scoop has 4-5 maybe 9 ... and that's been there for weeks.

Then again, scoop.kuro5shin.org is kind of a section like I'd mentioned. Perhaps we need a meta-scoop which is sort of like a Scoop specific search engine? Or even have your accounts constant across multiple Scoop based sites? The ability to post a story to one and have it voted to other sites? *ponder*



[ Parent ]
Re: Ok, this time I agree that this is ... (4.00 / 1) (#22)
by rusty on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 05:41:33 PM EST

Heh. The people spoke, and they said "Post it!" I'm never opposed to navel-gazing, myself-- some people just complain when they feel it's been too much in a short period of time. But apparently, not this time. Good ideas, BTW.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
I've been thinking about these thin... (3.00 / 1) (#6)
by fluffy grue on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 01:52:39 PM EST

fluffy grue voted 1 on this story.

I've been thinking about these things for a while too. I keep hopign that Rusty will eventually finish Scoop 2.0 or whatever it's called and then we'll have his mythical "sections" feature, but in the meantime, we can only hope, and let Rusty keep telling us that "Soon we'll have all that when I get sections implemented." Rusty, you're turning into Rob&co. Stop it. ;)
--
"Is not a quine" is not a quine.
I have a master's degree in science!

[ Hug Your Trikuare ]

One other thing... (3.00 / 1) (#19)
by DJBongHit on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 03:38:38 PM EST

How come Scoop doesn't save my preferred method of viewing comments in between logins? I set it to "Nested" and it saves it as long as I'm logged in, but then if I log into another machine, it reverts to "Threaded." Shouldn't this be saved with the user login rather than a separate cookie?

~DJBongHit

--
GNU GPL: Free as in herpes.

Re: One other thing... (4.00 / 1) (#20)
by rusty on Sat Jun 10, 2000 at 03:44:58 PM EST

Yes, it should be saved with the user. Thank you for reminding me-- I do finally have the stuff in place to do that. Right now it's saved witrh the session, which is not so much user-specific as machine-specific, or login specific.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Static "Articles" (4.50 / 2) (#24)
by wolfpac on Sun Jun 11, 2000 at 12:35:21 AM EST

These are something that I would really like to see implemented. I know that in the past I have come across some facts or a viewpoint that I thought would greatly add to the discussion, but I had no where to say it because articles do not last long enough on the main page to have a thorough discussion. This would allow a constant conversation on a topic to exist.

Re: Static "Articles" (5.00 / 1) (#25)
by rusty on Sun Jun 11, 2000 at 01:15:44 AM EST

Not to mentiuon those topics that *always* come up, over and over, drowning out other thought-- can anyone say Napster? I'd really like to be able to create "zones" of discussion on a continuing topic, so that new stories could be pointed out there, and we wouldn't have to have the same "hot topic" story repeated all the time.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Re: Static "Articles" (none / 0) (#26)
by wolfpac on Sun Jun 11, 2000 at 01:25:59 AM EST

Another reason why this would be a good thing because it will allow for all the ideas on a topic be concentrated in one area, rather than having people post good stuff on 20 different articles. All of the information would be in one place. It would save the time of having a user to repost their response in each article and having to make their point to people who missed the previous one.

If this is implemented, I would like to see an option to show the high scorering posts first. This way people can see the "better" previous comments. A better feel for the community's belief(s) on a subject would be gained.

[ Parent ]

Re: Static "Articles" (none / 0) (#28)
by abe1x on Sun Jun 11, 2000 at 11:23:39 PM EST

<OT>
Ok this is attempt to post this, there seems to be a bug that prevents posting of replies in iCab 2 on a Mac. I've never had a problem posting replies to the main articles, but every time I try and post a reply to a subhead I crash (which believe it or not is a rare thing when surfing with iCab). Where can I make a bug report after I investigate a bit?
</OT>

Here what I orginally wanted to say - The hot lists seem like a great idea that haven't yet reached there potential. I like this "whats hot" section, but I'd like to see it go a step further. How about keeping stories that are generating the most discussion on the front. The first articles could be by posting time as they are, and the bottom articles could be the ones the are generating discussion.

Right now the hotlist just doesn't work, Most articles are generating little or no responces after leaving the front page. This seems like the eastiest solution - leave the good discussions up on the front page.

[ Parent ]

Main problem with static articles (4.00 / 1) (#27)
by Fyndalf on Sun Jun 11, 2000 at 02:02:01 AM EST

For static articles to really be useful, people need an easy way to find:

  • Which messages were posted since the last time they viewed the topic
  • The highest rated messages

Now, sort by rating actually appears to work properly here (It seems a bit funky in Slash), but instead of changing the order I'd like a way to have new posts stand out, perhaps a different colour for the link and title bar, or an icon or somesuch. Would that be hard to keep track of? Would it put too much load on the server or can it handle it?



Re: Main problem with static articles (none / 0) (#31)
by dlc on Mon Jun 12, 2000 at 12:42:31 PM EST

    perhaps a different colour for the link and title bar, or an icon or somesuch

What would qualify as a new post? A post whose link has not been physically followed (you browser does that), or one that has been added since after the last time you were here? Neither of these seems practical -- keeping timestamps for each user sounds suspiciously like keeping a clicktrail, and your browser handles the first one. Perhaps just a simple "sort by date" with a customizable window/threshold? (E.g., "Sort by time, with all the posts added in the last hour highlighted in red.")

darren


(darren)
[ Parent ]

Off Topic (none / 0) (#29)
by Stuart Ward on Mon Jun 12, 2000 at 09:23:22 AM EST

A certian amount of completely off topic is good, keeps us all awake. Too much is a problem though. How to get the right balence is the question.

Random Thoughts On K5 | 33 comments (33 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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