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[P]
Navel gazing: Discussion of discussion

By Skippy in News
Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:10:43 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

Having been a Kuro5hin reader for some time now I'd like to make an observation. While Kuro5hin seems to be taking off and everything seems to be working well I've noticed a lack of something I consider vital to this sites survival—discussion. There usually seem to be several good comments on the meatier stories that get posted but it seems they usually don't generate threads. I don't know what causes that but I do have some hypotheses.


  1. Kuro5hin is still growing and the community hasn't reached a "critical mass" that one needs for discussion.
  2. The story moderation system itself causes a lack of discussion. People vote on things in the queue and since they have read the story don't return to read comments or comment again.
  3. People are worried that if they have something negative or critical to say that they may inadvertently instigate a flame war as happens on Slashdot regularly. The Kuro5hin readership seems to be very fearful of degenerating into another flaminghotgritspetrifiednatalieportman fest. (Not that such a scenario is likely or even possible given Rusty's editorial ban on trolls).
The reason I am bringing this up is because I am concerned over the future of the site. While stand alone comments are great, I believe that discussion is the key to Kuro5shin's success and future survival. Without discussion Kuro5hin is MLP (massive link propagation) with comments, not commentary, and I don't know how long that can hold an audiences interest. Apologies to Rusty for the navel gazing submission :-)

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Display: Sort:
Navel gazing: Discussion of discussion | 76 comments (76 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
"The story moderation system itself... (3.00 / 1) (#10)
by _cbj on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 12:10:08 PM EST

_cbj voted 1 on this story.

"The story moderation system itself causes a lack of discussion. People vote on things in the queue and since they have read the story don't return to read comments or comment again."

Yup. Was going to say that myself. I only use K5 to moderate submissions. Feeling of power, I guess. But then, there really isn't much of the submitted stories that I'm interested in.

This is something I've pondered ove... (1.00 / 1) (#14)
by wb on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 12:25:22 PM EST

wb voted 1 on this story.

This is something I've pondered over as well.

Re: This is something I've pondered ove... (4.00 / 1) (#19)
by Dolgan on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:15:51 PM EST

No offense, but your post is part of the problem.

You just commented on why you voted 1 and offered no real insight. That's very common around here...

[ Parent ]
Re: This is something I've pondered ove... (3.00 / 1) (#23)
by Perpetual Newbie on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:31:32 PM EST

You just commented on why you voted 1 and offered no real insight. That's very common around here...

Good point. This kind of thing can be helped, but there are also times when voting that you want to get a comment back to the story writer, but don't want that comment cluttering up the story page(such as "-1 MLP"). Would two text boxes solve this, or perhaps a check box? Or a Rusty's Own HTML Extension?

[ Parent ]

Todo (none / 0) (#36)
by kmself on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 04:27:28 PM EST

This is on the to-do list. My own pref is that submission queue comments not be carried to the discussion at all.

Reasons:

  • IMVAO, sub-que comments should be meta -- concerning rationale for vote, rather than on the topic of the submission itself.
  • Sub-queue is defined as blind, so you don't have a chance to see what other people are writing.
  • It's then impossible to thread (you can't follow up to a comment), and long-lived queue stories (which don't get voted through) tend to accumulate a large number of non-sequitor comments which are all independent threads.

--
Karsten M. Self
SCO -- backgrounder on Caldera/SCO vs IBM
Support the EFF!!
There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

  I've noticed this too -... (3.00 / 1) (#15)
by Denor on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 12:25:56 PM EST

Denor voted 1 on this story.

  I've noticed this too - and I've not even been here that long. I think some of the reason that discussion is languishing is that the stories that are being posted tend not to be ones to generate discussion. The Vorbis story on the front page, for instance, is great news -- but not too likely to start a civilized flamewar (if such a thing exists :)
  As far as critical mass goes, I think we've reached it, or we're very close. I've seen >100 comments on articles at times, so the interest is there, we just need stories to help rally the masses :)

-Denor


THere have been some recent stories... (3.00 / 1) (#1)
by hattig on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 12:27:11 PM EST

hattig voted 1 on this story.

THere have been some recent stories that have generated discussion - the Response to Microsofts breakup generated over 180 comments, because it was a look at how the average person viewed the breakup, not the actual breakup itself, which was a snoozefest. People on Kuro5hin post much more interesting and relevant replies, not like on Slashdot where 1/2 the posts are useless.

People shouldn't be afraid of heated discussion (I disagree because blah.., You are wrong because ... etc) - it is great at clarifying points of view, and getting to the root of the issue. If it devolves into a flamefest (Your opinions are stupid, you are stupid, etc) then things go bad, and that is Slashdot currently.

The problem is with Story Moderation.When I have moderated, I have seen several posts I disagree with, and want to reply to, but I can't until it has been posted on the front page (up to a day later). For example, somebody said in the previous story - "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". This is true, but without guns, then it would be a lot harder to kill people. Guns exist for one thing - to kill people. Why any modern society can advocate guns as a part of the legal process is beyond me, but it is too late for America now to turn back.



You are right. I've brought this up... (3.30 / 3) (#18)
by Dolgan on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 12:39:46 PM EST

Dolgan voted 1 on this story.

You are right. I've brought this up on another account (I changed my name recetly) back in February. I decided not to bring it up again because Rusty seemed convinced that there's not a problem.

But there is. I have noticed this for quite a while. And, judging from the people who put down k5 over at TOS, other people notice it, too.

I think one solution is to only give a percentage of the viewers moderation access. Do it just like TOS, but with more people. Perhaps, though, here... the NEW people get access more often? Or they get it automatically, and everyone else has a chance to get picked randomly or something. Maybe the people who come here most often could get picked. And it'd pick, say, 1000 new ones each day. Or less - I don't know how many hits we get here.

Also, the stories in the queue should only be viewable by people who currently have access (the link would reappear when they have access). And, within a week or so, everyone would have had access ad least once so it'd be pretty common.

Something like that, anyway. Just need a way to get people away from their "Vote: -1," "Common: Cool story" thing.

Re: You are right. I've brought this up... (2.00 / 2) (#26)
by Perpetual Newbie on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:43:50 PM EST

I think one solution is to only give a percentage of the viewers moderation access.

Uh, No. Part of what makes k5 great is that we have the whole community getting into it. If you only let a percentage of people moderate have special aceess, you end up with a 8-2 S/N ratio in the voting comments instead of 80-20; You lose some noise, but you lose a lot of signal as well. If you only let newer viewers moderate, we lose the signal from the older, more clued guys. If we let only older viewers moderate, newer users who pass the age threshold will want to exercise their newfound powers and will be somewhat encouraged to post mindlessly. The current form has some problems, but other solutions might be nessecary.

[ Parent ]

Re: You are right. I've brought this up... (3.00 / 1) (#28)
by Skippy on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:53:06 PM EST

I don't think he's proposing a fixed percentage like an oligarchy or cabal. I think he's proposing a rotating schedule of moderation which everyone is included in and I think that's a great idea. I've stated why in my comment above. But you are right, if it were the same hand-picked percentage of people that would kill any sort of objectivity in the site.
# I am now finished talking out my ass about things that I am not qualified to discuss. #
[ Parent ]
Re: You are right. I've brought this up... (3.00 / 1) (#27)
by Skippy on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:47:12 PM EST

Wow. I think this is a great idea if properly implemented. Let me say why.
  1. Everyone still gets to vote, just not on every story
  2. Stories might get posted faster because the threshold of required votes (out of the smaller voting base) would be lower
  3. You still get the benefit of other readers acting as a "filter" for you
  4. Fewer redundant moderation posts would accrue
  5. It would spur discussion because people would not have read the story in the queue and already said their piece.
I'm trying hard here people to generate discussion, work with me :-)
# I am now finished talking out my ass about things that I am not qualified to discuss. #
[ Parent ]
Re: You are right. I've brought this up... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
by abe1x on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 09:27:12 PM EST

There are alot of problems with this some have allready been brought up. Here are a couple more:

1- If not everyone can see the stories being moderated we will get a ton of redundancy in submitted articles. Anyone here a /. meta moderator, I'm sure the same stories must get submitted by 100's of people.

2 - People like seeing the stories up for moderation and reading the moderation comments. Well at least I do and I wouldn't be to happy if that privaledge was taken away from me

[ Parent ]

Re: You are right. I've brought this up... (4.50 / 4) (#64)
by Velian on Mon Jun 19, 2000 at 12:36:19 AM EST

Then perhaps they could see the story, but not vote or post to it until it's on the main page.

And also I want to make it clear that I don't mean a Slashdot-type style thing where you rarely get to vote. You'd get to vote quite often - just not on every article.

[ Parent ]
We've had enough meta-stories.... (2.00 / 1) (#8)
by inspire on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 12:52:28 PM EST

inspire voted -1 on this story.

We've had enough meta-stories.
--
What is the helix?

Re: We've had enough meta-stories.... (4.00 / 1) (#29)
by Skippy on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:58:36 PM EST

You know, this is a really small comment but when I saw it I was REALLY hoping this story would get posted so I could reply.

I COMPLETELY disagree with you. I think that one of the best things about Kuro5hin is the fact that we have stories about the site. While navel gazing can get old, I think its very healthy that we have these discussions about the nature and direction of the site. It allows us to continually define who we are and where we are going. I can have an impact at this site and this story is living proof. Try that at some other site.


# I am now finished talking out my ass about things that I am not qualified to discuss. #
[ Parent ]

Re: We've had enough meta-stories.... (none / 0) (#58)
by inspire on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 10:43:00 PM EST

Yes - comments about the site are good. But I get sick of them after seeing them appear every week or so as someone discovers kuro5hin, and brings up the same points again and again - what's really needed is a meta-discussion thread like 'What Now' that isnt impossible to read due to the number of comments.
--
What is the helix?
[ Parent ]
good points.. there can be a little... (1.00 / 1) (#16)
by darkwind on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 01:23:02 PM EST

darkwind voted 1 on this story.

good points.. there can be a little more discussion... as long as it doesn't get out of control as a bunch of other sites have done.
--- "Do not be too timid and squeamish about your actions. All life is an experience." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

I believe that the a large problem ... (4.00 / 2) (#4)
by mattdm on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 01:40:44 PM EST

mattdm voted 1 on this story.

I believe that the a large problem is with comments posted at moderation time (like this one!). By the time a story gets posted, there's already a bunch of stale discussion sitting there -- much of it only relevant to the moderation of the story and not useful once the story is posted. This doesn't encourage discussion at all. It should be made clear that moderation comments are ONLY for the purposes of moderation / refining stories. And they shouldn't be transfered to the final discussion. If people post interesting things in the wrong place and their comments are lost, well, too bad.

very much yes - REDUNDANCY (5.00 / 2) (#24)
by mcc on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:35:46 PM EST

i've noticed the lack of replies on kuro before, and i came to the same conclusion you did.

but a big part of _why_ has to do with the fact that not only are the comments _stale_, they're also _redundant_-- people can't read the comments already put up with moderation before they mod-post, meaning that they can't see if what they're seeing has already been posted. For example, in the "navel gazing" thread your point has already been posted-- but you had no way of knowing that.

So if anyone's going to actually read the comments, they ahve 15 or so boring, redundant comments to wade through, some of which would have still been salvagable because they contain new points or information, but it would have been better had they read the original posts and posted theirs as replies to the originals. Most people, i think, give up before they get to the meat.

story comments with the moderation should not be kept.. just my 0.001 cents.

---
Aside from that, the absurd meta-wankery of k5er-quoting sigs probably takes the cake. Especially when the quote itself is about k5. -- tsubame
[ Parent ]
Re: I believe that the a large problem ... (5.00 / 1) (#33)
by Cariset on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 04:07:11 PM EST

I think you've got a point. Here's my thoughts:

1) Comments on the submission should be separate from comments about the story. That is, we should try and separate the write-up from the issues that it raises.

2) You shouldn't be allowed to post a comment on the story until you've had the chance to read all the other comments on the story. Otherwise, you end up with redundancy and lack of discussion.

3) Commenting on the story won't be useful if the submission is voted down. (Assuming that comments are tied to a paticular submission.) Only if a submission reaches the front page will a discussion happen.

Two options come to mind here: The first is to say that comments while voting are on the quality of the submission only, and that actual discussion of the issues raised should wait until the story is posted to the front page. The second is to switch to a forum-based system, where there's a large archived forum that has continuous on-going discussions, and posted articles reference a particular area or thread where discussion is encouraged to locate itself... (Although that may be too radical of a change.)

[ Parent ]

The problem now, of course, is how ... (2.00 / 1) (#9)
by Arkady on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 01:42:18 PM EST

Arkady voted 1 on this story.

The problem now, of course, is how to write a comment on this one ;-) I think Skippy's probably right about why discussion is limited, though I think the first listed is the primary cause. I know I try to keep an eye on whether anyone has replied to my comments and that there have been some threads that go 8 or so comments deep, but of course /. threads can go 50 or more deep. I'm not certain that the shorter discussions aren't better.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


Good point. Two ideas: ... (1.50 / 2) (#17)
by Eloquence on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 01:50:39 PM EST

Eloquence voted 1 on this story.

Good point. Two ideas:

  • Change standard browsing mode from "threaded" to "flat", this makes replies more visible
  • Allow to reply to comments by other voters, even before the story is actually published

--
Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
spread the word!
Re: Good point. Two ideas:... (2.00 / 1) (#20)
by Dolgan on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:17:19 PM EST

I think #2 is a very good idea.

Another idea is to let people choose between two forms of commenting when voting: Comment on story quality and Comment on story. That'll separate the "Good story. I agree." from the insightful posts.

Some of these things have been suggested before and, back in February, were set to be done "soon." =(

[ Parent ]

Sub queue carryover considered harmful (none / 0) (#38)
by kmself on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 04:31:47 PM EST

For reasons posted elsewhere, submission queue comments should be meta and not carried over.

--
Karsten M. Self
SCO -- backgrounder on Caldera/SCO vs IBM
Support the EFF!!
There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

These 'news' type of websites like ... (4.00 / 2) (#2)
by mattc on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 02:26:00 PM EST

mattc voted 1 on this story.

These 'news' type of websites like slashdot and kuro5hin all have this problem. Articles roll off the front page rather quickly.. and there are no 'persistant' conversations.

Perhaps comments should be grouped under categories rather than individual stories. Like instead of having each mp3 story having it's own comments section just have a MP3 category which stores all comments related to mp3 stories.

When you go to moderate submissions it would have two areas. One is the "Your vote:" -- keep that the same -- then another, "Category" which the voter would select the category it should go into (or allow them to create a new category[1]). Instead of Categories it could be called 'Discussions' or something, to make its purpose clearer.

The Discussion (category) comments could be sorted by date, and on comments that have a low score (not moderated or moderated < 2.0) and have been around for a while (30 days?) would be erased or archived somewhere else. This would keep the Discussion size down, since I doubt anyone reads more than 100 comments unless they are really interested in the topic.

blah blah blah You get the idea.

[1] A 'karma' system might need to be implemented so only high ranking people could create new categories. Yes, I hate those karma systems just as much as everyone else,, but we have to be realistic..

Give the site some time to devolop ... (2.50 / 2) (#11)
by duxup on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 02:26:09 PM EST

duxup voted -1 on this story.

Give the site some time to devolop before we start predicting it's decline and why.

Re: Give the site some time to devolop ... (4.00 / 1) (#25)
by Skippy on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:38:12 PM EST

Sorry if this came across as predicting the decline of Kuro5hin. I didn't mean it that way although re-reading my own article it did sound that way. I think that Kuro5shin has the ability to evolve away from anything that might kill it, but I'd like to see it evolve faster.
# I am now finished talking out my ass about things that I am not qualified to discuss. #
[ Parent ]
Not decline, critique (none / 0) (#39)
by kmself on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 04:33:28 PM EST

The issue is one of how to make K5 better. The critique raised in this story is quite valid IMO. It's a correctable problem.

--
Karsten M. Self
SCO -- backgrounder on Caldera/SCO vs IBM
Support the EFF!!
There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

It's reason #2, IMHO. After voting... (4.00 / 1) (#5)
by skim123 on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 02:35:26 PM EST

skim123 voted 1 on this story.

It's reason #2, IMHO. After voting on a story it might be a day or two before it appears on the main page. By that time I've already moved onto other stories. I check my User Info every now and then to see if people are responding to my comments/posts, and often they are not... so I don't pursue them any further...

Money is in some respects like fire; it is a very excellent servant but a terrible master.
PT Barnum


One of the other problems with stor... (4.70 / 3) (#6)
by fluffy grue on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 02:48:18 PM EST

fluffy grue voted 1 on this story.

One of the other problems with story moderation is that a lot of people think that a certain story isn't very discussible (like I do on this one) but then some other previous voting comment is something which would easily change their mind on that. Rusty, we NEED to see previous votes! This system *needs* Heisenbergian stuff. Otherwise, in voting we just get a bunch of similar comments, and no *discussion*. Either get rid of voting comments, or make them viewable before voting.
--
"Is not a quine" is not a quine.
I have a master's degree in science!

[ Hug Your Trikuare ]

Re: One of the other problems with stor... (4.00 / 1) (#21)
by scorpion on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:17:53 PM EST

I agree, I would like to see the other comments when in the que phase. I could then add to someone elses comment or just vote without a comment and wait till it hits the front page.

[ Parent ]
Re: One of the other problems with stor... (2.00 / 1) (#22)
by Dolgan on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:20:07 PM EST

Ooh! That's a good idea, too. Getting rid of voting comments.

But a ways down someone else suggested allowing replies. I think that'd help, as well.

[ Parent ]

Re: One of the other problems with stor... (5.00 / 1) (#44)
by Marcin on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 06:43:05 PM EST

But a ways down someone else suggested allowing replies. I think that'd help, as well.

I don't like that idea. I mean, the point of the moderation queue is that we get to choose what stories are 'on the site' for everyone to read. If we start being able to have threaded discussion in moderation then it's kinda pointless, because it's like another front page of the site.. if you know what I mean.
M.
[ Parent ]

Re: One of the other problems with stor... (4.00 / 1) (#31)
by eries on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:59:15 PM EST

Amen. I think that vote comments are definitely a problem.

Here's another possibility: maybe we can have "story moderation" only be granted to a certain % of K5 users for a given story. That way, when the story gets posted to the main thread, it's still new to some people.


Promoting open-source OO code reuse on the web: the Enzyme open-source project
[ Parent ]
Re: One of the other problems with stor... (3.00 / 1) (#40)
by hurstdog on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 04:40:55 PM EST

maybe we can have "story moderation" only be granted to a certain % of K5 users for a given story.

hmm... I don't really agree with that. IMO the whole ideology behind kuro5hin is that anyone can vote on whether or not a story gets posted. I think thats the idea. Once we start "granting" certain people access to moderation etc.. we start to fall into the traps of /. And eventually there will be people complaining about unfair moderation and one day kuro5hin could have Meta-Moderation as well. I don't want to see kuro5hin fall into that trap. I don't think giving moderator status to only a certain select group of people will promote a full open discussion. You have all read /. and seen what kind of moderation troubles they have, meta-moderation, bitch slapping, groupthink, etc... I don't want to see a clone of /. here, in terms of moderation, stories, discussion, whatever. I think there is a lot more potential for a fully open discussion here, without the worry that some moderator won't like what you say, for everyone is a moderator, and that makes it a lot harder for a "select group" to become moderators and control the discussion so only one viewpoint rules.

Anyway, I notice I'm rambling. I'm sure you've guessed my point though, I don't agree with only certain people getting moderator status, I think everyone should have it.

-Andrew

[ Parent ]
Re: One of the other problems with stor... (2.00 / 1) (#41)
by Skippy on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 05:05:19 PM EST

Once again, I think the point is that everyone votes, just not on every story. It isn't like slashdot where the only people who get to moderate are ones who fit a profile. Everyone will moderate stories, just not everyone will have moderation powers at the same time. I think this is an excellent idea for reasons I've stated in another post.
# I am now finished talking out my ass about things that I am not qualified to discuss. #
[ Parent ]
Re: One of the other problems with stor... (2.00 / 1) (#61)
by eries on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 11:37:28 PM EST

bingo
Promoting open-source OO code reuse on the web: the Enzyme open-source project
[ Parent ]
I'd only agree to that if (none / 0) (#70)
by error 404 on Mon Jun 19, 2000 at 02:45:45 PM EST

we have meta-meta-moderation.

And having rights for one level of meta-moderation precludes access to all other levels. We certainly don't want the meta-meta-meta-moderators interfering with meta-meta-meta-meta-moderation.

Unless, of course, they have enough Prhana points.

..................................
Electrical banana is bound to be the very next phase
- Donovan

[ Parent ]
Re: One of the other problems with stor... (3.50 / 2) (#32)
by Perpetual Newbie on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:59:20 PM EST

lot of people think that a certain story isn't very discussible (like I do on this one) but then some other previous voting comment is something which would easily change their mind on that.... make them viewable before voting.

That's exactly why I think comments should not be viewable before voting. I would prefer to see what each person has to say about a story from their own thoughts and experiences, before they have a chance to change their mind to match the prevailing group opinion.

I hadn't personally noticed redundancy in comments until this story; I still think it shows the importance of individual opinion. When you have a bunch of people on their own saying "Change this!", it means more to me than one person saying "Change this!" and a bunch of people saying "Yeah, what he said!".

[ Parent ]

Re: One of the other problems with stor... (2.00 / 1) (#34)
by Skippy on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 04:09:25 PM EST

I really fear the ability to see previous votes. It could easily lead to a herd mentality that could hurt even more. And in a blatant display of ignorance what the heck is "Heisenbergian stuff"?

As for getting rid of voting comments, if you mean don't let them carry over, I'm starting to agree. If you mean get rid of them altogether then that's not a good idea. I read the submission queue a lot and have many times thought, "Gee, if I were the author, I'd re-submit this after considering that comment".
# I am now finished talking out my ass about things that I am not qualified to discuss. #
[ Parent ]

Re: One of the other problems with stor... (2.50 / 2) (#55)
by royh on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 09:14:43 PM EST

And in a blatant display of ignorance what the heck is "Heisenbergian stuff"?

err... the "Heisenburg Uncertianity Principle" is a law/theorem/somethinglikethat that deals with how the act of observing something changes that thing (but the actual physical effect is only noticable with extremely small particles like electrons).

I think fluffy was trying to say something about cross-polination of ideas and allowing them to develop.

I think that people will generally agree with each other until they start talking, at least with this crowd, and I find it difficult to believe we would develop a herd mentality.

[ Parent ]
Re: One of the other problems with stor... (3.00 / 1) (#60)
by Skippy on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 10:51:48 PM EST

Ok. Thanks, I was aware of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, but for the life of me couldn't figure out how it applied. I think I get it now.

I still think it would be a Bad Thing™ to make the moderation comments viewable.
# I am now finished talking out my ass about things that I am not qualified to discuss. #
[ Parent ]

Seeing prior votes (none / 0) (#68)
by error 404 on Mon Jun 19, 2000 at 01:01:47 PM EST

I really like the blind voting.

I've voted 0 on a couple of articles because I wanted to see where the voting was going, and maybe skim the voting comments. That's interesting to me, because I feel kind of marginal here - I'm a bit on the old side (39) and not a programmer, student, or system administrator. I've been considering a few ideas for articles, and I like to get a feel for the way they might be received.

I think, in some cases, I would have skipped voting for or against articles if I had known the current score - why should I kick in even more support for an already overrated article? The blind voting removes that question.

What I think would help most is a better indication that there are new messages. I tend to look at my user info page about once a day to see if anyone has answered one of my messages. But that seems a bit egotistical, somehow.

..................................
Electrical banana is bound to be the very next phase
- Donovan

[ Parent ]
The reason so many fewer threads fo... (4.00 / 1) (#12)
by PresJPolk on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:06:19 PM EST

PresJPolk voted 1 on this story.

The reason so many fewer threads form, is that so many people make comments in the voting phase, before one is allowed to reply. (See this comment for an example)

Once the story moderation rework is made, I think more threads will form.



Naval Gazing ... (3.00 / 1) (#3)
by Perpetual Newbie on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:06:55 PM EST

Perpetual Newbie voted 1 on this story.

Naval Gazing

Although we have had some good discussions in the past, there haven't been that many. We do need a few more active users.

Regarding 2, I think it would encourage discussion if, after voting for a story, we could reply to other people's voting comments.

As for 3, as long as your words are countering your oppenent's argument and not attacking them directly, you are not flaming. If your opponent engages in ad hominem attacks, ignore 'em and concentrate on the issues. One way to keep from appearing belligerent in an argument is to avoid using the word "you" or anything else that sounds accusatory.

For me it's more of a #2 deal than ... (1.50 / 2) (#13)
by iCEBaLM on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:08:49 PM EST

iCEBaLM voted 1 on this story.

For me it's more of a #2 deal than the other two probable causes you suggested.

I think this is an interesting obse... (3.00 / 2) (#7)
by scorpion on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:10:43 PM EST

scorpion voted 1 on this story.

I think this is an interesting observation.. Your comment number two was especially on target. I notice people make comments in the que but few once posted. Maybe the article could get posted quicker to allow for comments on the front page rather than in que...

My 2 cents worth (4.00 / 2) (#30)
by jetpack on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 03:58:42 PM EST

I've been pondering a related issue about the k5 way of doing things for a while now. It seems to me that the biggest problem is that story voting is being somewhat abused. I think the intention of "explaining yourself" when you vote is to say why you voted the way you did. However, most folks that "explain themselves" are usually *not* doing that, but rather trying to start a discussion on the topic.

I think a better system would be to *not* post voting comments when the story hit's the main page. Maybe keep them in a separate list which cannot be replied to. That would, I think, tend to promote posting after the story gets posted and promote the immediacy of the discussion, rather than posting-and-forgetting.

The explainations about voting would still be around, but they would not be part of the discussion.
--
/* The beatings will continue until morale improves */

Re: My 2 cents worth (3.00 / 1) (#43)
by Marcin on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 06:39:14 PM EST

I've been pondering a related issue about the k5 way of doing things for a while now. It seems to me that the biggest problem is that story voting is being somewhat abused. I think the intention of "explaining yourself" when you vote is to say why you voted the way you did. However, most folks that "explain themselves" are usually *not* doing that, but rather trying to start a discussion on the topic.

You're wrong. The following quote is from the text you get when you click on a story to moderate, i'll snip most of it, you know where to find it:

[...] If you have something to say, by all means say it. But if you don't have anything to add to a potential discussion, just leave the comment box blank. If you want to explain why you voted in more depth than "Neat" or "This sucked" please do, though. [...]

Notice it doesn't say "Don't post things for potential discussion, wait until they story is up" but instead it implies that if you have something to add to a potential discussion then do it there.

Apart from that though, I agree with you that it probably should be two seperate sets of comments. The ones for voting should be just feedback to the author and when the story goes to the front page it goes up without them. I think Rusty once mentioned he was intending to have it so that moderation comments are all emailed to the author so they can get their feedback whether the story is accepted or not too.
M.
[ Parent ]

Re: My 2 cents worth (4.00 / 1) (#50)
by jetpack on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 08:10:28 PM EST

You are correct. My bad.

However, I've had a brief discusion with rusty about this, and his intension seemed clear. Comments during voting are intended to be about why the story should(n't) hit the main page. And as a you comment, we ( you and I ) think that should be enforced.
--
/* The beatings will continue until morale improves */
[ Parent ]

Re: My 2 cents worth (5.00 / 1) (#63)
by rusty on Mon Jun 19, 2000 at 12:29:59 AM EST

It's kind of both, which is why it's not working very well, basically. I didn't have any clear "one or the other" mindset, I just figured comments in moderation were for either relevant editorial comments, or relevant topical comments. In retrospect, this is not working. Changes are on the way-- believe me, I'm reading and listening. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Re: My 2 cents worth (none / 0) (#66)
by ramses0 on Mon Jun 19, 2000 at 09:43:40 AM EST

There have been at least 10 times when I've read a story in the mod queue, and it -really- sparked something in me. Maybe it was about guns, maybe it was about schools, maybe it was bout females in the workplace.

I don't remember what I ended up writing as my comment for those stories in the mod queue, but I do remember that if I had to wait a day or two to actually comment on the damned story, I would have either forgotten what I wanted to say, or calmed down enough so that it wouldn't have felt important that I reply.

Either way, k5 has lost a comment.

The real problem is "nobody's replying to comments".

IMHO, it is because you can never tell when somebody has replied to your own comment. People are greedy and lazy, and will be more likely to reply to a comment that they've made than other comments.

But once people who have voted for a story actually go back and read a discussion that has taken place, they'll usually go ahead and start posting comments (like me :^)=

Also, it gets difficult to follow a discussion at times, especially when there are more than 100 comments. I made a discussion engine for a project of mine that I think makes it a little bit easier for casual users to tell when new comments have been posted. Take a look my discussion board, read and/or post if you feel like it.

It's designed for a school to just plug in a listing for each class, and get a free discussion board, as well as file-sharing and professor announcements really easily.

If there were a better/easier way for people to see how many people have replied to their comments (ie: You have 4 new! replies from Skippy, kmself, rusty, [more...], at the top of each page) I think you would see comment participation rise an order of magnitude.

--Robert
[ rate all comments , for great justice | sell.com ]
[ Parent ]

Re: My 2 cents worth (none / 0) (#73)
by jetpack on Mon Jun 19, 2000 at 06:43:31 PM EST

IMHO, it is because you can never tell when somebody has replied to your own comment. People are greedy and lazy, and will be more likely to reply to a comment that they've made than other comments.

I'm not sure I agree with the first part of the paragraph. To see if anyone has replied to you recently, just check your user info (top right corner on the main page). Then again, maybe you mean something different. :)


--
/* The beatings will continue until morale improves */
[ Parent ]

Re: My 2 cents worth (none / 0) (#75)
by ramses0 on Tue Jun 20, 2000 at 09:35:44 AM EST

I know about the "User Info" button to the right, but i didn't figure out that trick until about 3 months in to using this site. :^)= ... I'm talking about a summary of the "interesting" stuff from a person's user info page to appear on the right hand side in a little box. That way I don't have to click a different button to see if anyone has responded.

--Robert
[ rate all comments , for great justice | sell.com ]
[ Parent ]

Highlighting new posts? (4.00 / 2) (#35)
by Cariset on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 04:23:32 PM EST

One thing I've noticed about sites like this is that it's really hard to identify newer comments. This is bad because it makes it hard to keep up on the continuing discussion. (Compare to mediums like email lists and newsgroups.)

One thing that might help is a view that completely ignores threads: it would just display highest comment ID first, no matter who replied to what. It wouldn't be as useful for jumping into a discussion (because you'd lose the back-and-forth of threads), but it would _really_ help when you've already read everything that's old, and just want to see the new stuff.

Another way to go about this would be to have a way to highlight all the newer comments (have them be colored red, for example). I'm not sure what the best technical way to do this would be, not having looked at the source code. One thought would be a form button that said "highlight all comments above cid X", where you stick in your value for X. You might also use time, or even use stored session information ("since your last refresh")...

I think something like this would _greatly_ improve the ability of readers to keep up with what's being said. It currently far too easy for new replies to old messages to be "lost" and never noticed...

Re: Highlighting new posts? (4.00 / 1) (#37)
by hurstdog on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 04:27:37 PM EST

Or maybe something that was like: "highlight all comments younger than __ minutes" maybe? I don't think that would be too hard to do... From what I've seen of the code I think it would be maybe 5 lines (10 max) added to 1 file. Unless we added a user pref for the highlight color, or some sort of customization... in which it might take longer. But I like your idea... ( /me thinks of adding it in just for fun since he's bored...)

-Andrew

[ Parent ]
Re: Highlighting new posts? (5.00 / 1) (#49)
by crayz on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 07:48:15 PM EST

I use WebBBS on my site, and every time you enter the board, it tells you how many new messages have been posted, and all new messages have the word "NEW" in bright red next to them. I think this is very good for helping people know what messages to look at.

Of course, I don't think anything that stood out that much would be acceptable in kuro5hin's color scheme, but we could work something out.

[ Parent ]

Re: Highlighting new posts? (2.50 / 2) (#52)
by royh on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 09:00:09 PM EST

Maybe some cookie magic would help: keep track of the latest viewing time (at user option), and then do something to differentiate posts newer than the last viewing time.

[ Parent ]
Re: Highlighting new posts? (none / 0) (#54)
by Anonymous Hero on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 09:02:42 PM EST

Phorum uses Cookies to identify which posts are new or not to each user; putting a symbol beside to highlight the posts (can't quite remember what the symbol is, bah!). -- Matthew

[ Parent ]
At least "last post time" (2.00 / 1) (#69)
by error 404 on Mon Jun 19, 2000 at 02:31:01 PM EST

Having a "last post time" display for each discussion on the main page, or at least on the hot list, would encourage me to revisit a discussion.

As it is, discussions tend to be very fast. After the first day, there tends not to be much new commentary, so there isn't any point to looking for new commentary, so there isn't much point to adding it, because nobody is looking because they don't expect it to be there. But if I could see that something has been posted since the last time I looked, I'd look again.
..................................
Electrical banana is bound to be the very next phase
- Donovan

[ Parent ]
2 other reasons (3.00 / 2) (#42)
by tjansen on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 05:15:07 PM EST

- I think one of the main problems is that you cannot reply someone else's comment in the story queue. As most comments are written there, there are naturally less threads there

- in my settings, and I think these are the default settings, the newest comments are on top. If you look at the discussions at slashdot, the first (and oldest) comments always have the longest threads, because they are on top. So if the topmost comment is changing al the time, it is less likely that there will be long threads

Some more ideas (2.67 / 3) (#45)
by Eloquence on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 06:50:32 PM EST

I think the solution to the problem of irrelevant comments carrying over to the actual story is quite simple: Below the "Explain yourself", include a "Carry over to story if published" checkbox which is turned off by default.

You see, when I started moderating, I did the same: Just write "I don't think that belongs here" or "Cool idea" as explanations, because, in some cases, this was all I had to say. It was only later that I actually realized that these short comments showed up in the published story. - OK, I didn't read carefully, but the fact that there are more such postings makes clear that such a checkbox is required.

Ah, and you could include a subject field that would only be used if the checkbox is activated. This way, we wouldn't have those "Yes, this is gre..." subjects.

The fact that some explanations are carried over to the story - and it cannot be predicted which ones - also solves the "First Post" problem once and for all.

As for moderation quotas, no, please don't do anything like that. We want to be better and more democratic than Slashdot.

As for looking into how other people have voted before voting yourself, I'm not sure. Sometimes I really would like to make sure if I'm not missing something fundamental before I vote. But herd behavior is indeed a problem, and it might keep people from reading the actual references. Right now I say: Leave it as it is.
--
Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
spread the word!

What I Think The K5 Story Moderation System Should (3.20 / 4) (#46)
by Marcin on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 06:54:04 PM EST

Well, I've read through all the comments and have talked about this with people on #k5 before, and since everyone seems to be throwing in their two cents in regards to what the Story Moderation system here should be I'll throw in mine.

Basically my ideas are nothing new, just an amalgamation of what I think are the best ideas from other people:

  • Voting comments are only for voting, they don't go through to the story
  • Voting comments are only seen by the Author of the Story. Everyone else only sees the vote total. I don't think i've seen anyone mention this idea.
  • When a story is either rejected or posted then voting comments are all packaged up and mailed to the story author incase they weren't around to read them. This is actually Rusty's idea, but it's pretty cool.

Thank you for your time. :)
M.

Re: What I Think The K5 Story Moderation System Sh (5.00 / 1) (#48)
by dave0 on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 07:27:59 PM EST

I wholeheartedly agree with this. The voting comments should be a guide to the author of the story, and nothing else. Discussion should take place after posting, not during voting.

[ Parent ]
The k5 improvement plan (5.00 / 2) (#47)
by abe1x on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 06:59:05 PM EST

Here's my take on it all. Please note many of these ideas have been raised by other members in this and other discussions. I'm adding a few new ones and listing all the others I'd like to see implemented.

1 - Use the hotlist. There is a decent solution to some of this problem already built into k5, its called the hotlist. It suffers from the chicken and egg syndrome at the moment, no one uses it so it has no use. Rusty and all the scoop developers could help by making it a bit more of an obvious feature. At the moment you need to stumble on it to know its there.

2 - Fix the submission que. At the moment articles that generate a slight bit of interest (say a score of +1 for every 10 votes) hang around on the moderation list slowly gaining points until they get posted to main page a day or two after being topical. I'd like to see a time limit (or a shorter one if one allready exists) on how long a submission can stay on the que.

3 - Keep articles on the front page based on how many comments they have recently generated. Nothing will keep a discussion going longer then keeping the article on the front page.

4 - Similarly a hotlist of the most hotlisted articles would help.

5 - Make the moderation que fully functionable. Why not let people reply and rank comments while they are on the que? It'll jump start the discussion. The lag between story be submited and being discussable is way to long, this solves the issue.

6 - Allow for moderation only comments. Let people check a box that indicates that they are submitting comments for moderation only purposes. It'll help keep some junk of the main lists.

7 - Make it easier to see all the replies to your post. In the user box there should be an option to see all the replies to you posts in one page. This will make it easier for people to respond to responces, making it easier for discussions to stretch out longer.

Let there be Two Modes. (3.00 / 1) (#51)
by cfe on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 08:24:43 PM EST

Number two is a good point. I think one enters a different state of mind when voting on submissions. One thinks about the question "how should the stories be like? Is it interesting. Could it be improved." And when engaging in discussion one is concerned with the actual topic. One is more the editor's persective, one is reader's persective. Rusty gives everybody the feeling of being in control, and that's nice here, but a site needs also the reader persective, not only crowds of webmasters.

So here is my idea: create two modes, one editor's mode, one readers mode. One interface should encourage discussion, and one editing, improving on quality and so one. I don't mean to cut user's influence or something, but rather that one mode makes one think about giving the site the right stories, and one that is more a discussion board. The user can weare his editor's hat OR his reader's hat. Perhaps some tend more to the one, and others to the other. Or you are a reader for one month and the editor in the next month. They don't mix well, so seperate them.

The point is: who can resist the little, promising, red number in the "Submissions" box and still enter a flamewar on some topic?

Making moderation better (5.00 / 1) (#53)
by mbrubeck on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 09:01:33 PM EST

I like the story and comment rating on kuro5hin, and I like the fact that it is available to all readers. I think that it often gets in the way of reading, however, so I'd like to see a couple of minor changes to make it less obtrusive while keeping the functionality.

First, I think that moderation-queue comments should be separated from post-moderation comments, and hidden by default. This has been one of the most-requested features for scoop in previous meta-discussions.

Second, I'd like to be able to rate comments as I read them and then commit all of my ratings with a single click. Reloading the page after each rating is extremely slow and cumbersome.

A new way (5.00 / 1) (#57)
by abe1x on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 09:41:55 PM EST

How is this for an alternative solution?

Eliminate the voting system entirely. Make the front page ranked by how much response the articles are generating. Make the moderation page just a time based page that works exactly like the front page, execpt all submissions are posted and displayed in order of posting, newest first. People looking for great discussion can go to home page, where as those looking for the newest stuff, or have time to moderate can go to the time based page. Articles move to the front page merely by generating enough discussion.

Re: A new way (4.00 / 1) (#62)
by Anonymous Hero on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 11:49:45 PM EST

This is a cool idea - perhaps "rate of addition to discussion" is a better metric - so old much discussed things will slip once turnover slows.

Perhaps this is the right panel (instead/as well as of older stuff)?

How to prevent this turning #1 story into Natalie Portman's Hot Grits is up to community good will I guess.

[ Parent ]

Several Thoughts: Some Sociological, Some Technica (5.00 / 1) (#59)
by Anonymous Hero on Sun Jun 18, 2000 at 10:49:08 PM EST

I have been tuning into K5 for a month or two now (its generally in my top three stops upon logging on, along with /. and mozillazine). I like it alot and am glad to see that it seems to be taking off -- many stories with 50+ comments, good S/N ratio. I am still a K5 newbie -- I haven't yet set up an account and have a hard time thinking "corrosion" rather than "kuro-five-hin" (which reminds me of the names of restriction endonuclease cut sites on DNA strands). This being said, I had a couple thoughts:

1. The "noise" on Slashdot, as annoying as it may be, may serve a useful function by spurring the conversion and encouraging the more knowledgable/thoughtful to step in to sort things out. In other words, the "2" and higher posts on a Slashdot thread may end up being better than what the posters thereof would have put out absent the "<2" posters. More thoughtful readers/contributorsmay be too polite in dealing with each other. Additionally, the "hyped-up high schooler/college kid" factor a Slashdot gives it a certain energy and sometimes provides for interesting exchanges, whereby more informed posters can provide links, context, counterarguments, etc. in response to home-grown ideas of the smart but inexperienced. I am not suggesting that K5 imitate Slashdot, I am just pointing out that there are pros and cons to both approaches to comment filtering (Slashdot: attract a big and varied crowd, have a low S/N, allow readers to filter by comment ratings; K5: cultivate a more signal-ful crowd, making comment-level filtering less necessary). I think this is a problem that will sort itself out naturally once more people start participating in K5. Though I wish K5 the success of Slashdot, I think things are starting to get unwieldy over there -- too many stories with 500+ comments, 450 of which are "1" or less.

2. I have been kicking around my own ideas for a weblog/discussion forum, more as a web programming exercise than anything else, and I had several technical ideas that you may wish to consider:

(a) The right third of each K5 comments page is wasted by the column that contains the login box, given that the login box uses only an inch of the column. The login box should either be made a horizontal box above all comments (so that comments could span the whole page) or perhaps the first comment or two could be in the left column of a table with the login in the right and thereafter the comments could be full page.

(b) Once Mozilla is in somewhat greater use, you could use the display:none and display:block div tags plus some JavaScript to enable opening and closing of threaded comments on the client side. Since text doesn't take much memory and a typical K5 thread contains less than 100 comments, all comments could be sent out even in threaded mode and the children links could toggle the display of the children comments. As I suggested, this requires Mozilla or IE4/5 (and might work in very recent Opera or Konqueror releases) but does not work in, for instance, Netscape 4.61 or 4.72 (of course, everyone should go get Mozilla). I imagine that we will start seeing forum sites doing this in a year or so.

In any event, I wish K5 continued success.

Re: Several Thoughts: Some Sociological, Some Tech (none / 0) (#67)
by FFFish on Mon Jun 19, 2000 at 11:12:42 AM EST

Unless you're running a 640-width display, losing a third of the column width is a good thing. It makes the text narrower, which makes it more readable.

Newspapers use columns for a reason...

[ Parent ]
Noise and java (none / 0) (#76)
by kmself on Tue Jun 20, 2000 at 12:59:30 PM EST

Bad comments, even trolls on occasion, can stimulate good threads. The key here is filtering which allows the idiot posts to be filtered while reparenting the high-signal posts.

Anything involving javascript is going to get nixed in my book. Java and Javascript are inconsistant, buggy, and prone to security exploits. I disable both by default, or browse with software that doesn't support them at all.

--
Karsten M. Self
SCO -- backgrounder on Caldera/SCO vs IBM
Support the EFF!!
There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

The key point of quality discussion boards (4.00 / 1) (#65)
by Anonymous 242 on Mon Jun 19, 2000 at 09:01:16 AM EST

The best discussions I have had online were at Inforworld Electric prior to the implementation of their new discussion software in 1999 (the new software sucks rocks and is almost completely unusable). There were two attributes that made the discussions great.

1. There were a core group of very knowledgable, eloquent individuals that contributed on a regular basis. Nick Petreley, Brett Glass, Yatzstomo, D Lunsford, Karsten Self, (whom I've noticed posting here), a large number of other truly great minds (many of which I've often disagreed with) would post regularly and insightfully to get some very provacative threads going.

2. There were a limited number of discussions (4) that were on the Infoworld front page for an entire week. The forums page would continue to list old discussions and they would occasionally continue beyond a week, but for the most part, one week was about the lifetime of the average lively discussion.

Kuro5hin wants discussions to be lively, threaded and meaningful. Given that a large number of people probably only have time to read K5 once a day, the discussion must be on the front page for somewhere from 3 to five days for meaningfull and intelligent discussion threads to pop up.

What I would suggest is a maximum number of stories and a set shelf life for stories. A story would only roll off the front page if its shelf life were up (say 5 days) AND new posts are below a certain threshold number. As each story rolls off the front page, it would be replaced by the story in queue with the highest score. In the case of exceptional events or circumstances, rusty or someone could override the maximum number of stories and place a very important submission directly on the front page.



Re: The key point of quality discussion boards (none / 0) (#72)
by speek on Mon Jun 19, 2000 at 06:31:12 PM EST

What I would suggest is a maximum number of stories and a set shelf life for stories. A story would only roll off the front page if its shelf life were up (say 5 days) I would suggest that stories could be rated by some means that would allow interesting stories to stay on the front page longer. Rating a story could be done by several means - explicit user rating of a story and it's subsequent discussion (there could be two radio buttons next to each story - 1. yes this story/discussion is still interesting and 2. no, this story has gotten stale. Or, you could simply have some algorithm make the above judgement based on the number of user comments being added to the story. A story still generating user comments would stay longer than one that trails off. This algorithm could further be modified to make it harder and harder for a story to maintain itself on the front page as time goes by. Personally, I would like to see this tried, but I realize there's possibility user's could manipulate it.

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
[ Parent ]

Whatever you do, Rusty, keep it incremental (3.00 / 1) (#71)
by error 404 on Mon Jun 19, 2000 at 02:53:15 PM EST

Richard Milhouse Nixon voted -27 on this article

because I pretty much like it the way it is.

More replies would be nice - almost every post is on the top level - but there is so much right here that I'd rather not see big changes.
..................................
Electrical banana is bound to be the very next phase
- Donovan

A few improvements... (none / 0) (#74)
by fuzzylogic on Mon Jun 19, 2000 at 08:46:42 PM EST

I'll try not to be redundant and only post original ideas, but here are some improvements:

- A "moderation" thread that's always ongoing for such "naval-gazing" as this. This way people don't have to wait for such a story to post their comments if they think up a good improvement idea. Maybe even make some kind of "to-do" queue that people could vote on and if it gets enough votes, then you can make the necessary changes in the code (maybe a bit too much to ask for i suppose :) )..

- Most of the comments are on the writeup itself or on voting. This was said 50 times on this thread, so all i'll say is : do not show voting comments

- I noticed that 99% of, if not all of, the submissions are eventually accepted, many of them after too long of a time. Is the threshold for stories being accepted too low perhaps?? After all, ANYONE can moderate, so I suspect a lot more people will do that than you think.
(I realize this site doesn't get that many submissions so that might be why)

- Maybe instead of "old stories" links, you can have a bunch of old stories that are still active. Maybe rank them by activity, so if someone posts a comment lets say a week after the story went up, you could see that. Of course, you'd have to somehow distinguish which comments are newer.

I think I had some more but my memory is bad :)

-- logifuzic
Navel gazing: Discussion of discussion | 76 comments (76 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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