Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
Sun open sourced Java IDE

By osgrrl in News
Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 08:32:51 PM EST
Tags: Internet (all tags)
Internet

Sun open sourced its entry level Java IDE recently. Does this mean the tide is turning at Sun?

Sun released Netbeans (opensource counterpart to Forte for Java Community Edition) to the open source community under an approved open source license (MPL rebranded with Sun's name in place of Mozilla).


Sun seems to be trying it the right way. It appears that they're not simply throwing the code over the fence and seeing what comes back, but are making a commitment to grow this as an open source community-based project , providing ongoing support to users and developers alike through the site, ongoing attention to mailing lists and the website and giving select contributing community members commit access, etc. In fact, I've heard that the Netbeans *internal* developers (Sun employees) have moved all of their development efforts onto the site, using CVS, Bugzilla and public mailing lists. They're saying they're even going to do design work out in the open. We'll see...

What do you think this means for Sun? We'll see over the next few months, but I wonder why now and why Netbeans...

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Related Links
o entry level Java IDE recently
o Netbeans
o Forte for Java Community Edition
o open source license
o commitment to grow this as an open source community-based project
o Also by osgrrl


Display: Sort:
Sun open sourced Java IDE | 18 comments (15 topical, 3 editorial, 0 hidden)
Has time come for all companies to realise OpenSou (none / 0) (#2)
by Manish on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 07:44:00 PM EST

Has the time come for all companies to realise what OpenSource means for their development and popularity?

The only catch here is: What is the more important motive here: Development(??) or Popularity(!!) ?
Manish.

I'm not fooled (4.00 / 3) (#5)
by PresJPolk on Wed Jun 28, 2000 at 10:57:18 PM EST

An open-source IDE to a closed technology. Ha.

Re: I'm not fooled (3.00 / 1) (#6)
by zavyman on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 01:18:17 AM EST

You are right, in the sense that open-sourcing Netbeans will not necessarily bring about any opening of Java. In fact, as you alluded to, making the IDE open-sourced may help bring up the appearance that Java is free, which is certainly an undesirable effect.

But still you must realize that a good IDE is important to a lot of developers, and it is especially nice that it is also free (as in speech). Remember that the open-source community has been asking companies to release software that has no commercial use to them with an open-source license. In this respect, Netbeans is another victory for open-source. Sun has done what people have been asking for all along, and for this I applaud them.

I can see where you are coming from, but this kind of news from Sun on the Java front is exciting to many people, as it may be a hint of what is to come.

[ Parent ]
Re: I'm not fooled (4.00 / 1) (#7)
by cdegroot on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 05:59:10 AM EST

Sun is thinking hard (and spending a lot of effort and money) about their licensing models. Expect more to come.

However, they simply are not convinved that open sourcing is an automatically optimal solution, and I think they have all the right to that opinion. After all, it's their code, and a company open sourcing their work to you is not one of your constitutional rights.

With Jini, they attempt an open community model. I happen to be involved with that (as a community member, I'm not a Sun employee), and I think it makes sense. Whether that needs to be done under the SCSL is an entirely different idea ;-), but I think for some technologies the idea has its merits (if alone to be able to convince closed-source companies to join the community and contribute their work). With Java, they now moved to the Java Community Process which I think is interesting, open, and better than getting the spec frozen by a standards committee. Why do we flame Sun for not bringing Java to a standards committee (their attempts with ISO and ECMA where /means/ to the end of making the Java evolutionary process more open, not the /end/ in itself - they think that now with the JCP they've got something better, and let's give it a year or so to decide), while not flaming hordes of open source programmers for failing to do the same? Do you really think that flaming large companies will help a lot in making them more open-source friendly?

One of the nice things about Sun, that most (especially young) people seem to forget, is that they were always reasonably open-source minded. YP/NIS and NFS are two nice examples.

On the Netbeans process: yes, the internal developers are indeed using netbeans.org for their work - mailing lists, bugtracking, the load. The site was built by collab.net, and the ideas come from the Mozilla project (the license is Mozilla with search and replace: s/Mozilla/Sun/, s/Netscape/Sun/, s/code/code and documentation/ - at least that's what the guy who did the business side of this project told me).

[ Parent ]
Re: I'm not fooled (3.00 / 1) (#9)
by PresJPolk on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 07:42:47 AM EST

However, they simply are not convinved that open sourcing is an automatically optimal solution, and I think they have all the right to that opinion. After all, it's their code, and a company open sourcing their work to you is not one of your constitutional rights.

Well, duh, opening the source isn't optimal for them. The optimal situation for Sun would be a rental license. Frequent mandatory upgrades (ala Windows) can end up similar to a rental.

The problem is that non-open software is not optimal for the user, because Sun can back out of anything at any time they want. Sun can also sabotage competitiors (ala Windows). If the UCITA passes where you live, then Sun ends up being able to do even more.

One of the nice things about Sun, that most (especially young) people seem to forget, is that they were always reasonably open-source minded. YP/NIS and NFS are two nice examples.

Yeah, Sun used to be the "good guys." Then they pulled Java from the standards process



[ Parent ]
Re: I'm not fooled (4.00 / 1) (#10)
by sludge on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 08:50:54 AM EST

Sun also makes most of it's money from hardware. They have no reason to charge for software, which is why Java's cost-freeness is a no brainer for them.

I personally am rooting for kaffe (www.kaffe.org) as the saviour of Java for whose who give a political shit.
SLUDGE
Hiring in the Vancouver, British Columbia area
[ Parent ]
Re: I'm not fooled (4.00 / 1) (#16)
by Anonymous Hero on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 12:23:20 PM EST

Just like IBM makes most of their money from hardware, and is now making major commitments to Linux.

[ Parent ]
Re: I'm not fooled (2.00 / 1) (#17)
by Alhazred on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 01:19:43 PM EST

Kaffe is not totally free either... In fact its LESS free than Sun's JVM in a realistic sense.
That is not dead which may eternal lie And with strange aeons death itself may die.
[ Parent ]
Re: I'm not fooled (4.00 / 1) (#18)
by sab39 on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 02:06:13 PM EST

How exactly is being under the GPL less free than Sun's Java?

Stuart.
--
"Forty-two" -- Deep Thought
"Quinze" -- Amélie

[ Parent ]
Comparisons of Netbeans & JBuilder Standard (5.00 / 1) (#8)
by Dacta on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 06:12:17 AM EST

Has anyone used both of these enough to be able to compare them well?

I used a (pre-open source) beta of Netbeans, and while it had a lot more features than JBuilder Standard, Jbuilder ran a lot faster & smoother.

I know JBuilder isn't Open Source, but Borland do make pretty good developer tools.

Which one of these things doesn't belong. (none / 0) (#11)
by tidepool on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 09:07:51 AM EST

Well. Here I go again. I know this comment doesn't belong here - but I'm going to write it here anyways. Neener.

Over on the righthand side of the screen, in the sidebar, k5 gives you options on how you would like to view the comments: Rating, Order, etc, etc. One of the catagories is

View:
a) Mixed (default)
b) Topical only
c) Editorial Only
d) All comments

What I ask is this: Since there are only two types of comments (Editorial & Topical) how does "all" differ from mixed? Heh. Thought so.

Re: Which one of these things doesn't belong. (none / 0) (#13)
by cesarb on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 09:59:15 AM EST

Mixed will not display editorial comments after the story goes to the front page. All will.

[ Parent ]
Re: Which one of these things doesn't belong. (5.00 / 1) (#14)
by avdi on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 10:05:01 AM EST

Rusty explained this when he introduced the new sorting system. To quote:

You'll also notice another new box on the right, containing the comment filter/sort stuff. Most of this is the same, except the first select box. That allows you to say whether you want to see Editorial comments, Topical comments, All, or the default, which is "Topical Only" in normal stories, and "All" while a story is in moderation (I really recommend this or "All" as the best choices, but have it your way).

So, "All" gives you all comments, all the time. "Mixed" gives you all comments while the story is pending, and only Topical comments once it is posted.

--
Now leave us, and take your fish with you. - Faramir
[ Parent ]

NetBeans (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous Hero on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 09:51:33 AM EST

It's got a few quirks and I think an interface that's difficult to navigate, generally speaking tho, its ok.

However the bigger problem is that it would occasionally just freeze for up to 15-20 seconds (presumably gc). Very annoying.




Not new (3.00 / 1) (#15)
by donime on Thu Jun 29, 2000 at 10:54:01 AM EST

This is by no means the first bit of open source from Sun. NFS (recently OSSed) wasn't the first either, neither was Tomcat (part of Apache) or their XML parser (also Apache).

Neither is developing OSS s/w in an open way - Tomcat has been like that for a while - public mailing lists, CVS, etc.

So I don't think it has anything to do with C#

However - It is a very interesting project - I don't see how they will stop people writing free versions of the tools they add to an enterprise version that costs a grand a pop.

Sun open sourced Java IDE | 18 comments (15 topical, 3 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest © 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!